Question:

In a message sent ’round the world, Randy Story poured fuel on the fire with the following: … If even one value is expected by all then by definition it is objective and absolute.

Got any credible references to support this absurd claim? God has placed this expectation within us to be valued by others, no matter how hard we try to reject it we keep coming back to it.

Your deity does not exist Randy, as has already been shown to you.   Regards,    Josef Scepticism … is the agent of truth.         — Joseph Conrad

Response:

I would never presuppose that anything obligate another. My point Josef which you know well is that one cannot deny logic or values I cannot deny logic, true. What the heck makes you think I cannot deny values? Values are subjective. It is in their very nature that some hold them differently than others.    That doesnt matter, yes you can deny logic

Not truthfully. but you must use it in your denial. Yes you can deny values but you value your own denial.

Since values are subjective. If I said you dont have a right to your denial I would find out quickly just how much you do value it.

And your point is?    We can say values are relative but we dont belivee our own statement is relative, as such it is self evident that values exist and there is no denying them.

They exist in peoples minds, and only there. They are not absolutes.    We dont find out what people really believe about values by what they say or even what they do. We find it what they want done to themselves. All men want their opinion to be valued, all men want the freedom to express their opinion. Values are undeniable, meaning that even if we try to deny them we want others to value our denial. Self defeating.

I still don’t see what your point is. The issue is whether such a thing as an objective moral value exists. I say there is no such animal. No moral value exists outside someone’s head. ## We must keep America whole and safe and unspoiled.  AL CAPONE

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would never presuppose that anything obligate another. My point Josef which you know well is that one cannot deny logic or values I cannot deny logic, true. What the heck makes you think I cannot deny values? Values are subjective. It is in their very nature that some hold them differently than others.    That doesnt matter, yes you can deny logic Not truthfully. but you must use it in your denial. Yes you can deny values but you value your own denial. Since values are subjective. If I said you dont have a right to your denial I would find out quickly just how much you do value it. And your point is?    We can say values are relative but we dont belivee our own statement is relative, as such it is self evident that values exist and there is no denying them. They exist in peoples minds, and only there. They are not absolutes.    We dont find out what people really believe about values by what they say or even what they do. We find it what they want done to themselves. All men want their opinion to be valued, all men want the freedom to express their opinion. Values are undeniable, meaning that even if we try to deny them we want others to value our denial. Self defeating. I still don’t see what your point is. The issue is whether such a thing as an objective moral value exists. I say there is no such animal. No moral value exists outside someone’s head.

   Yes but we all want the exact same values when applied to ourself. Show me one person that doesnt value his freedom to express himself. Logic exists only in the mind also and to what we apply it to. A pile of 10 oranges is just a pile of oranges but in our mind we know there is ten. Values exist because we all expect the same considerations even when we dont give them to others. If even one value is expected by all then by definition it is objective and absolute. God has placed this expectation within us to be valued by others, no matter how hard we try to reject it we keep coming back to it.

Response:

In a message sent ’round the world, Randy Story poured fuel on the fire with the following: … I would never presuppose that anything obligate another.

So much for your claims of an absolute morality, then. My point Josef which you know well is that one cannot deny logic or values without cusing or claiming that their own statement has value. As such it is self evident that values exist jus as it is self evident that logic applies to reality. This is as clear as any empirical evidence one could claim for any subject and you know it, even if you think its twaddle.

The twaddle, Randy, is your claim that this demonstrates an objective morality. You just dont like the twaddle because there is no escaping it.

  Regards,    Josef As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it.         — Dick Cavett

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yet there ARE some moral maxims that seem to transcend time and place and are universally held to be true, in all places and by all societies. No there are not. Somewhere you’ll find someone who doesn’t subscribe to it, no matter what the maxim is. A good example is murder– Oh murder is easy. To rationalize murder all you need do is call it something else. Is an executioner paid by the state to kill people a murderer? What about the professional soldier? is it any less wrong now than it was when Moses brought the Ten Commandments to the Israelites? Exodus 32:27 He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Put your sword on your side, each of you! Go back and forth from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor.’" 28The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded, and about three thousand of the people fell on that day. 29 Moses said, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of the LORD, each one at the cost of a son or a brother, and so have brought a blessing on yourselves this day." Murder or ordination? Assasination or blessing? So my question is: Is it true that there can be NO objective morality, Yes it is true, but for an entirely different reason. The reason is that objective issues are independent of mind. They are true or they are false of themselves, no matter what your opinion on the issue may be. That is not the case with morals. ## We always make God our accomplice ## so we may legalize our own iniquities.

Stop nitpicking.  I thought that it would be obvious that I meant the taking of someone’s life at the hand of another–not state executions or wars, or killing in self-defense.  I meant pre-meditated murder, as in First-degree murder . . . That is always wrong.  I have never heard ot being acceptable in any society or culture, anywhere on earth.

Response:

Stop nitpicking.  I thought that it would be obvious that I meant the taking of someone’s life at the hand of another–not state executions or wars, or killing in self-defense.  I meant pre-meditated murder, as in First-degree murder . . . That is always wrong.  I have never heard ot being acceptable in any society or culture, anywhere on earth.

Then obviously you don’t live in East L.A. There are, and have been many cultures where killing others is culturally accepted. Among the gang bangers of the ghettos of the US is an example.  As for nitpicking, well, if you had killed someone in Germany in the 1930s you would no doubt have been arrested and tried for murder. Yet what was that same government doing in places like Bergen-Belsen at the time? State executions of course, not murder. Yeah sure! Then there are the Thugee, ever heard of them? http://www.geocities.com/orthopapism/thugism.html Among the Aztec of Central America men had to be captured by warring on other tribes and then these prisoners had to be sacrificed on an altar atop a pryramid each day to ensure the sun would rise. Then on a grander scale there were sweethearts like Ghenhgis Khan who would have been heartbroken if there had been no more nations for him to invade and people to kill. But all this is irrelevant to the issue. Even if you could find something universally condemned by every single person on earth, that still wouldn’t make that a moral absolute. It would still be just a collective opinion. ## IRAN: One nation under God.

Response:

I would never presuppose that anything obligate another. My point Josef which you know well is that one cannot deny logic or values I cannot deny logic, true. What the heck makes you think I cannot deny values? Values are subjective. It is in their very nature that some hold them differently than others.

    That doesnt matter, yes you can deny logic but you must use it in your denial. Yes you can deny values but you value your own denial. If I said you dont have a right to your denial I would find out quickly just how much you do value it.     We can say values are relative but we dont belivee our own statement is relative, as such it is self evident that values exist and there is no denying them.     We dont find out what people really believe about values by what they say or even what they do. We find it what they want done to themselves. All men want their opinion to be valued, all men want the freedom to express their opinion. Values are undeniable, meaning that even if we try to deny them we want others to value our denial. Self defeating. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – without cusing or claiming that their own statement has value. Claiming value is different from claiming truth. Can you not understand the difference? As such it is self evident that values exist In the mind, as subjective opinion. jus as it is self evident that logic applies to reality. Which is objective fact. Apples and oranges. This is as clear as any empirical evidence one could claim for any subject But emperical evidence cannot always be trusted. That’s why we keep the scientific method handy. You just dont like the twaddle because there is no escaping it. It would be easily escaped by ignoring you, but I’m having a go at trying for understanding. ## A mind stretched by new ideas ## can never go back to its original dimensions.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So now, with my thin concept of universalizability or what Kant characterizes as the universal law of freedom in the Doctrine of Right, I will rpesent us with the Euclidean Geometry of morality. I realise I may be reiterating what others have said, but it is important to understand that morality and geometry are not the same thing. Our society likes to consider itself particularly alert to moral issues. We *care*.  We go out of our way to make sure that we care.  We have counsellors, after all, and what society before us ever thought to PAY people for caring?  We have special TV programmes where people can go and confess their wrongs or express their pain, and be cared at by a loving, sharing and understanding audience (and if the guests have to express themselves through physical violence or verbal abuse then of course more loving people will tune in so that they can care as well.  We say things like "I feel your pain," and "there’s so much love in this room". Surely, we are the very pinnacle of morality, because we care for each other so very much, and we fully appreciate the value of freedom and the sanctity of human life. And that is before we consider some of the things that we take for granted as being ‘right’:  the fact that half the world is starving because a tiny minority have all the money and hold all the cards.  The fact that we are stripping the planet of its resources because company bosses and politicians stand to make an enormous amount of money.  Or the fact that we have a lead nation telling off the rest of the world for thinking about building ‘weapons of mass destruction’ while it sits comfortably atop the world’s largest arsenal of those very weapons.  How about the fact that we invade and ransack one nation because it did not do what we told it, yet we turn a blind eye to massive abuses by another because we are worried that similar action there might upset our voters?  And so on. The point is that morality is not universal.  The range of different societies that have existed for any significant length of time on this planet demonstrates quite clearly that morality is a subjective thing. Each society will naturally believe it is morally superior to the others – just as we do.  We are not, though, as the myriad abuses we commit will demonstrate.  We are no more or less moral than any society before us, or after us.  We like to think that we are pretty advanced on the right and wrong front – but history will judge us harshly on that score, you can be certain, just as we now judge those that went before us. The claim that there is a central, overriding, objective morality would, like any other claim, benefit from some evidence.  And at this point, as thoughout the entirety of Earth’s history, there is no such evidence. Every society, every group, does what benefits it – and in our eyes some are worse than others.  But morality, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. — Midwinter Excellent post, Midwinter! I agree with you 100% – especially your last statement. Shalom, Bill

Yet there ARE some moral maxims that seem to transcend time and place and are universally held to be true, in all places and by all societies. A good example is murder–is it any less wrong now than it was when Moses brought the Ten Commandments to the Israelites? So my question is: Is it true that there can be NO objective morality, or has mankind just chosen to turn a blind eye against it, when it suited his purposes to do so?

Response:

Yet there ARE some moral maxims that seem to transcend time and place and are universally held to be true, in all places and by all societies.

No there are not. Somewhere you’ll find someone who doesn’t subscribe to it, no matter what the maxim is. A good example is murder–

Oh murder is easy. To rationalize murder all you need do is call it something else. Is an executioner paid by the state to kill people a murderer? What about the professional soldier? is it any less wrong now than it was when Moses brought the Ten Commandments to the Israelites?

Exodus 32:27 He said to them,

Question:

Well after I found out that Gaylord Entertainment has recently had a great 3rd Qauter in revenue I said to myself hmmmmmmmmmmm, sounds like a money maker…

What is their net profit compared to the second quarter? Evemn though the money making is over about a 6 monthsd period, Gaylord Entertainment should if anything double my profits I hope!

LOL.  Got to pass this along for laughs.

Response:

Well after I found out that Gaylord Entertainment has recently had a great 3rd Qauter in revenue I said to myself hmmmmmmmmmmm, sounds like a money maker… What is their net profit compared to the second quarter?

Who cares!  Sounds like a money maker.  LOL

Response:

This is an excerpt from my AP Economic term paper. For the nine months ended 09/02, revenues rose 38% to $302.5 million. Net income from continuing operations before accounting change totaled $25.7 million, vs. a net loss of $7.1 million. Results reflect increased revenue from the hospitality segment, and $30.5 million gain on sale of asset. Gaylord Entertainment has remained almost stable over the past year, even through the stock plummet after September 11th. I am certainly not looking for a short term investment, being that the price-to-earnings multiple is higher than the average for all stocks traded on the NYSE. I think the 5 year return looks very impressive with almost a 17.8% return. But what makes this such a unique stock pick is that it’s not heavily traded among large institutions. I see great potential in this stock over a long term investment. — – Justin Lamar Pugh "The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well after I found out that Gaylord Entertainment has recently had a great 3rd Qauter in revenue I said to myself hmmmmmmmmmmm, sounds like a money maker… What is their net profit compared to the second quarter? Evemn though the money making is over about a 6 monthsd period, Gaylord Entertainment should if anything double my profits I hope! LOL.  Got to pass this along for laughs.

Response:

Thus speaketh Justin Pugh: For the nine months ended 09/02, revenues rose 38% to $302.5 million. Net income from continuing operations before accounting change totaled $25.7 million, vs. a net loss of $7.1 million. Results reflect increased revenue from the hospitality segment, and $30.5 million gain on sale of asset. Gaylord Entertainment has remained almost stable over the past year, even through the stock plummet after September 11th. I am certainly not looking for a short term investment, being that the price-to-earnings multiple is higher than the average for all stocks traded on the NYSE. I think the 5 year return looks very impressive with almost a 17.8% return. But what makes this such a unique stock pick is that it’s not heavily traded among large institutions. I see great potential in this stock over a long term investment.

Copy-and-paste can make anyone look intelligent. Even you, Puke. — Tattoo Vampire, Esq. Owner & Proprietor, Trollus Amongus, Inc. XP owner but a Linux user For all you do, this troll’s for YOU! Remove "comorgbiz" if emailing

Response:

I know! — – Justin Lamar Pugh "The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thus speaketh Justin Pugh: For the nine months ended 09/02, revenues rose 38% to $302.5 million. Net income from continuing operations before accounting change totaled $25.7 million, vs. a net loss of $7.1 million. Results reflect increased revenue from the hospitality segment, and $30.5 million gain on sale of asset. Gaylord Entertainment has remained almost stable over the past year, even through the stock plummet after September 11th. I am certainly not looking for a short term investment, being that the price-to-earnings multiple is higher than the average for all stocks traded on the NYSE. I think the 5 year return looks very impressive with almost a 17.8% return. But what makes this such a unique stock pick is that it’s not heavily traded among large institutions. I see great potential in this stock over a long term investment. Copy-and-paste can make anyone look intelligent. Even you, Puke. — Tattoo Vampire, Esq. Owner & Proprietor, Trollus Amongus, Inc. XP owner but a Linux user For all you do, this troll’s for YOU! Remove "comorgbiz" if emailing

Response:

Question:

Let’s not forget that both the WorldCom and Enron insolvencies, layoffs and collapse were caused NOT by their reporting frauds but by massive negative cash flow over a long time, and no prospects for recovery. They both went belly up because of *particularly bad* business decisions during the telecom bubble which was, itself a combination of a mass delusion among investors and some executives, and a mass taking from them by many individuals in finance, capital equipment, and within the companies who knew the investments wouldn’t pay off. Let’s have fun crucifying these Kenneth Lay types.   But the real issue is where the money actually was spent. Hundreds of billions of cash went into stocks and bonds, into telecom companies and out to equipment vendors, properties, construction contracts, and all kinds of financial and marketing and supply chain intermediaries and software companies that delivered *nothing*.  Who are all *those* people? Where is the beef? Hundreds of billions of dollars! And the CTOs and IT staffs who presided over these vast wastes of assets, should be held very responsible. They have a very special responsibiity because there is no way anybody else but professional IT people could understand what they were doing.  It took hundreds of years, to fix the professional responsibilities of controllers, auditors, lawyers, etc. now, let’s penalize IT technologists who make excessive promises. The fact is telephone, wireless and internet equipment and software underperformed so badly it was possibly the biggest factor in the  meltdown of technology stocks. The shit was so insecure you couldn’t even use it. Software and hardware vendors intentionally cocked up their designs just to be incompatible with other vendors, to the injury of users and carriers. etc.etc. Small wonder Andersen didn’t fight the capitalization of operating expenses.  There were so many other intangible assets that were no more concrete.  YOu fall into this mental impression that the whole gestalt is what matters, what makes the company run.  The whole thing is an asset, even maintenance labor.  All assets!  If I were a 25 year old staff auditor I would be in awe of these vast pyramid companies. I would say "Glory hallalujah, brother!  Amen!" and get in my BMW without a worry. A lot more telecom companies will fail in the coming 12-24 months. So what.  That’s how markets operate. Sometimes I wonder if fraudulent reporting isn’t itself, an intentional technique to destroy the company in a more total and cathartic way.  In one stroke, it diverts attention from the whole rotten cabal of financiers and vendors who really got the money, it creates a lot of disorganization, doubt, and disruption around fiber and equipment taking it off the market to reduce the excessive supply, hopefully forever. It scrambles up the information of how the company operates, by blowing away all the employees who knew how to operate anything. These big frauds are the least-cost way for the industry together with its financiers.  They stick the blame on a couple of bigshots and some outside auditors and let the whole system, itself continue. The only hard part is getting enough people like Bernie Ebbers, Scott Sullivan, Kenneth Lay, John Sidgmore, etc. etc. to spread the blame around in plausible ways.  Well that can be arranged when, behind the scenes, directors and conspirators might be agreeing to pay them hundreds of millions.  I myself, would be glad to sit in prison for 4 or 5 years like Michael Milken etc. for that kind of money!  With THAT much money I could pay off enough politicians like Marc Rich did, and get completely pardoned, TOdd

Response:

FRom http://www.townhall.com/columnists/wfbuckley/printwfb20020629.shtml townhall.com William F. Buckley, Jr. (back to story) June 29, 2002 Redirecting a managerial class  I know a distinguished social pathologist who is wondering, at this juncture, whether there is a new component in the economic picture in America. Something is certainly new, given the near-daily advent of a fresh company detected in evasion and worse. The free-market models give us: entrepreneurs, stockholders, accountants, federal watchdogs, bankruptcies — and jails. The mix of those elements is supposed to encourage thrift, investment, merchandising, and profits — to the stockholders and to the buying public. What appears to the inquirer as unique in today’s situation is a body of actors who disengage from the accepted disciplines and do so with apparent impunity. The big question today is: Are these individual miscreants, or do we have an operating class beyond the reach of the law, on the order of the profession of prostitution? We have here the second wave of apparently deracinated evildoers in the course of a single year. The first was the priests, who, in outrageous defiance of primary obligations of their profession, abuse children, no less. Abusing stockholders is perhaps less iniquitous. But this set of miscreants are giving reasons why they did as they did, high exercises in self-exculpatory art. When an official of WorldCom reports that he could see nothing wrong, let alone unusual, about classifying moneys dispensed as capitalized expenditures when in fact they were moneys spent in doing business, the question arises: Can that man see anything as wrong? And if so, does he emerge as simply one criminal practitioner, or is he a member of a class newly acceptable in American business? There has been speculation over two generations about who actually controls business enterprise. James Burnham, in l940, argued the thesis of the Managerial Revolution. It isn’t the stockholders who run things; it is the people they nominate to serve in management, people they almost immediately lose control of, he argued. This is so because keeping up with what they do, let alone supervising what they do, is a practical impossibility. Stockholders are left with the power to remove, which can be likened to the power of Congress to impeach. They have the advantage of a hypothetical watchdog, requiring the execution of certain formalities, like a company’s annual reports. What was envisioned as supplementing stockholders’ rights was the concept of the public’s rights. A WorldCom CEO who dissimulates damages his stockholders, but hurts also a public that, taking heed of what happened at WorldCom Inc., hesitates to back other ventures, slowing down the dynamic of capitalism and inducing skepticism about the very idea of private enterprise. Congress is busy trying to come up with revised systems of auditing. The most prominent reform being discussed is outlawing the accounting firm that acts in a second capacity as company consultant. That idea would seem to be commendable, though the practice of it could be hard on the smaller of the 16,000 publicly traded companies that would now have to add an entire service echelon to the cost of doing business. What is needed quickly and extensively is: punishment. In the late l930s, no less a figure than a former president of the New York Stock Exchange went to jail for the misuse of funds. This is not a call to the denial of due process, but a call to the legitimate use of public punishment as a retributive act. In the public-school lore of Great Britain there is the story of the senior boy nailed for public indecorum and had up for a flogging. He pleads, in deference to his seniority, to be punished outside the view of voyeuristic fellow students. Permission denied, on the grounds that the public humiliation was an essential part of the punishment. Richard Whitney was sent to jail in l938. We need his successors to go to jail in 2002. The alternative is to sit by, supine in the gestation of a managerial class that violates the very idea of a capitalist class bound by laws and practices which make it a proud part of a free economy, whose leaders in large enterprises have done their best to discredit. This is a very real public issue and inevitably will separate many Republicans from many Democrats. The possibilities open to demagogues are great. But the Republicans would do eternal disservice to their responsibilities if they failed to take action against the great post- Marxian challenge to capitalism.

Response:

To: David Farber <*******cis.upenn.edu Dave: Some of my readers suggested I send this to you regarding Worldcom. It’s from my issue of May 6 and appears online at http://www.a-clue.com/archive/02/cl020506.htm [.......] The expected bankruptcy of the largest Tier One Internet Service Provider follows the bankruptcy filing of Global Crossing, and the more-recent filing of Williams Communications (http://news.com.com/2100-1033-888913.html). Sitting in the bankruptcy waiting room are such companies as Qwest (http://quote.yahoo.com/q?h=1&s=q&d=v1) and AT&T (http://quote.yahoo.com/q?h=1&s=t&d=v1). Do you notice the pattern? All these filings prove the same point, Moore’s Law applies to fiber. Because fiber capacity can be expanded exponentially using Wavelength Division Multiplexing, with capacity increasing by a factor of 1,000 (http://www.firstpr.com.au/telco/articles/wdm_links.html), the billions of dollars invested in the 1990s ringing the globe and every major city with fiber can’t be recouped. Infinite supply and a finite demand creates a price of near-zero. Since Internet telephony has also been incorporated into phone switches over the last few years, turning voice into bits, long distance voice prices too are plunging toward zero. The latest estimate I read was that it costs 2/10th of a cent per minute to move a long distance voice call, and 155 Mbps fiber lines were recently leasing for as little as $15,000 per month (http://dc.internet.com/news/article/0,1934,2101_1016421,00.html). Those 10-10-220 calls (run by Worldcom) are a major rip-off. The billions of dollars invested in fiber throughout the 1990s were invested based on the assumption that the value of fiber bandwidth would rise over time, due to increased demand. But even if phone companies, cable companies, wireless providers and ISPs had managed to convince people to buy broadband, even if sites were free to deliver broadband content, and even if everyone had "last mile" services at affordable prices, Moore’s Law would not have kept bandwidth prices level. It’s not just a matter of having everyone wired to broadband, but of everyone demanding the services of broadband at once, that fills those fiber pipes. Moore’s Law is putting all of the telecommunication industry’s big balance sheets – voice and data, national and international, wired and wireless – in the dumper. Since it’s cheaper to buy an "all you can eat" long distance plan from a cellular provider than a wire line carrier, AT&T and Sprint are just as threatened as Worldcom. This competition will eventually put cellular providers under pressure. Moore’s Law operates everywhere, meaning such giants as Deutsche Telekom, British Telecom, and Cable & Wireless are all under threat. I’ve been warning about this for years. But it doesn’t really help to be right. The question is what will we do about it? In Net Paradox (http://www.netparadox.com/) David Isenberg and David Weinberger propose that governments take major networks out of bankruptcy and run them as public utilities. In his latest "Cook Report" (http://cookreport.com/11.03-4.shtml) Gordon Cook claims the ILECs, or the "Teleban," are succeeding in getting government policies that force consumers to buy their monopoly services at monopoly prices. But even a government bailout of the ILECs and re-monopolization on behalf of the "Teleban" would be a short-term fix. Moore’s Law is irresistible, and it applies to radios, not just fiber. Other nations are applying this Moore’s Law of Radios to their own wireless worlds, so American intransigence could mean Mexico or even South Africa will have better service than Americans within the next five years. In any case, America’s monopoly of telecommunications capacity is going to end, because it’s so cheap to reproduce it. Even if you’re totally "clued-in," Moore’s Law means that billions of dollars in long-term debt, originally rated AAA, won’t be repaid. It can’t be, because the customer revenue needed to repay it can’t come in. The first point to be made today is we’re just at the start of this crash. Enron, which was highly leveraged based on rising bandwidth prices (it tried to make a market in the stuff), was just the tip of the iceberg, the canary in the mine shaft. These early-year bankruptcies are like the recent calving of the Ross Ice Shelf (http://nsidc.org/iceshelves/larsenb2002/). The actual event is like global warming, only in fast-motion. The second point is that this doesn’t completely sink the telecommunications equipment sector. Moore’s Law means that wireless broadband will continue to improve, and thus such "last mile" solutions will find a market. New fiber routing systems and diodes that increase fiber capacity will continue to be sold, to someone, because they do pay for themselves. But a lot of people talked in the 1990s about the idea that "bandwidth is free" and as they get their wish some will find it a nightmare. How should we deal with this? The first and most important thing to do is go through the grieving process, starting now. We’re still in denial – we need to reach acceptance. This is a titanic financial event, and given the inter-relationships between the public sector and telecommunications (financial interdependencies in many developing countries) it’s going to pop to the top-of-the-stack for real policymakers, not just elites. Left unmanaged (and it’s unmanaged today) we’re talking about a reversal of the recent "recovery" by the third quarter, with many of our very-best jobs disappearing. We’re talking about a deflationary spiral rivaling that of the 1930s. What’s the solution? Government will have to step in and buy this unused cap acity at some point, spinning it out (hopefully at a profit) following a reorganization. That’s what the laws of capitalism demand – stock and bondholders made mistakes and must pay. It’s funny, though, how many "market conservatives" will be calling for bail-outs in the next few years. When they do, bring a laugh track. There’s another lesson. Connectivity by itself is worthless. Only services, content, and software are meaningful. There must be a market negotiation to value services, content and software, in a world where their delivery costs nothing. Trying to ban technology turns the economy’s chief profit-center into nothing but a cost-center. This (http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-891781.html)  can’t be borne. There’s a lesson for you and I in all this as well. Make something unique, then make something else. This is something folks in the computer business have accepted for decades. It’s the only way out of Moore’s Law. And it’s coming to a telephone near you.

Response:

Question:

Q25:  Anything else I should know before I post? A25:  Yes.  If you have an axe to grind, an agenda to sell, or if you are  troller or spammer:  GO AWAY.  We won’t like you and you won’t like us. And now you see why the internet failed:

What a silly assumption, that the "internet failed". The internet, especially newsgroups, provides almost free discourse of information. The internet may *not have been profitable*, only because in a capitalist system, information can not be permitted to flow freely, instead, access to information must be controlled, and selection of information for distribution be limited to those who can pay the most. You know, you might be good at filling out legal forms, as you claim, but your understanding of basic logical concepts seems to be extremely limited. Best – Fido PS: BTW, these "points" are hysterical: 1.  People who want quality information demand that they not pay for it;

"Quality information"? What a concept. (What a joke!) 2.  Revenue, taxes, and jobs are lost.

Hypocrite. I can not reconcile this statement your earlier comments on "What happened to…" 3.  People are misled by "armchair" advicegivers…..

People are misled by so-called "professional advisors" every day. So, what is your point? In a simple scenario, where a divorcing man could learn how to find a woman ten times sexier than his first wife for $30.00 say, he should instead "join the group" and listen to them, even if he winds up with another psycho queen for wife #2.

Lost me there. The person who had the best information goes unpaid, the man winds up miserable, and the economy suffers.

haahaa. Sez you. Yeah, right, and *that* would never happen if the internet didn’t exist. haahaahaa. You’re killing me here. Yeah, that’s best for all.

You’re a jackass. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ray Gordon, Author

Response:

Isn’t this one of those multi-level scams? Eat shit and die, you evil spammer!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My name is Cathy Perry and I am seeking 100 people to complete a quick legal survey.  I am in the business of marketing prepaid legal plans and wish to better understand what the consumer wants and needs in the area of legal help. If you are interested in participating, please send me an email to To thank you for completing the survey and your time, I will send you a free report and a copy of the survey results once completed.  Also, please note that your information will be kept in the strictest confidence. — Make it a great day! Cathy Perry (403) 901-1065 http://www.justiceispower.com

Response:

take your survey and hotmail account and stick it up your ass. thanks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My name is Cathy Perry and I am seeking 100 people to complete a quick legal survey.  I am in the business of marketing prepaid legal plans and wish to better understand what the consumer wants and needs in the area of legal help. If you are interested in participating, please send me an email to To thank you for completing the survey and your time, I will send you a free report and a copy of the survey results once completed.  Also, please note that your information will be kept in the strictest confidence. — Make it a great day! Cathy Perry (403) 901-1065 http://www.justiceispower.com

Response:

I am in the business of marketing prepaid legal plans and wish to better understand what the consumer wants and needs in the area of legal help.

Your *business* is marketing legal plans – and you DON’T KNOW what consumer wants and needs in this area are? How about you’re a *wannabe* marketer of legal plans. Or maybe you’re just a stupid dumb fuck. Best of luck with your new business! Fido

Response:

The consumer want you to stop spamming newsgroups. JWB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My name is Cathy Perry and I am seeking 100 people to complete a quick legal survey.  I am in the business of marketing prepaid legal plans and wish to better understand what the consumer wants and needs in the area of legal help. If you are interested in participating, please send me an email to To thank you for completing the survey and your time, I will send you a free report and a copy of the survey results once completed.  Also, please note that your information will be kept in the strictest confidence. — Make it a great day! Cathy Perry (403) 901-1065 http://www.justiceispower.com

Response:

Due to SEC scrutinization of Prepaid Legal’s accounting methods, the company was required to restate it’s previous financial results which had been published to the investment community, including the New York Stock Echange, which traded its public stock. Errrrr… as a result of that "mis-statement", we see over $100 million of Prepaid Legal’s stockholders’ equity disappear in a flash. From the amended SEC filing:

"As discussed above, the Company has changed its method of accounting for advance commission payments to its associates. The change in accounting treatment reduced total assets from $247 million at December 31, 2000 to $93 million, reduced total liabilities from $100 million to $48 million (due to the elimination of deferred taxes related to the receivables) and therefor reduced stockholders’ equity from $147 million to $45 million…" Ooopsie doodles! Anyone see the Prepaid Legal stockholder’s $100 million? It was here a minute ago – but now it’s GONE! Best – Fido

Response:

I just want to thank all of you for your kind words and thoughts… As this is a new service in Canada, I was hoping to find out what type of lawyers people use, what the hourly rate the lawyers were charging, etc. etc.  Obviously, I’ve touched a cord here and I apoligize. — Make it a great day! Cathy Perry (403) 901-1065 http://www.justiceispower.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My name is Cathy Perry and I am seeking 100 people to complete a quick legal survey.  I am in the business of marketing prepaid legal plans and wish to better understand what the consumer wants and needs in the area of legal help. If you are interested in participating, please send me an email to To thank you for completing the survey and your time, I will send you a free report and a copy of the survey results once completed.  Also, please note that your information will be kept in the strictest confidence. — Make it a great day! Cathy Perry (403) 901-1065 http://www.justiceispower.com

Response:

I just want to thank all of you for your kind words and thoughts… As this is a new service in Canada, I was hoping to find out what type of lawyers people use, what the hourly rate the lawyers were charging, etc. etc.  Obviously, I’ve touched a cord here and I apoligize.

Newsgroups are for discussions of relevant topics, not for commercial spam.  Many fine groups have dies because they were overrun by spammers.  That is why spamming receives such a negative response.  It is *almost* as rude as telemarketers. Subversionmania

Response:

SCAM ALERT Prepaid legal plans are a MLM scam. You get to pay a monthly fee to get to talk to a lawyer on the phone. Everyone else gets to talk to lawyers (initially) for free. AVOID PREPAID LEGAL SCAMS AT ALL COSTS UNLESS YOU WANT TO DEMONSTRATE YOU ARE A FOOL. Want a lawyer? The Canadian Lawyer Index will find you one for free. Go to http://www.canlaw.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My name is Cathy Perry and I am seeking 100 people to complete a quick legal survey.  I am in the business of marketing prepaid legal plans and wish to better understand what the consumer wants and needs in the area of legal help. If you are interested in participating, please send me an email to To thank you for completing the survey and your time, I will send you a free report and a copy of the survey results once completed.  Also, please note that your information will be kept in the strictest confidence.

Response:

Why dont you tell us why over 75% people who use prepaid legal plans leave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My name is Cathy Perry and I am seeking 100 people to complete a quick legal survey.  I am in the business of marketing prepaid legal plans and wish to better understand what the consumer wants and needs in the area of legal help. If you are interested in participating, please send me an email to To thank you for completing the survey and your time, I will send you a free report and a copy of the survey results once completed.  Also, please note that your information will be kept in the strictest confidence. — Make it a great day! Cathy Perry (403) 901-1065 http://www.justiceispower.com

Response:

Scam? you judge and I quote – an exermpt from the National Lawyer magazine (Canadian Bar Association), Aug/Sept 2000 edition. "Meet the legal service format of the 21st century: Judicare. Of all the forces buffeting the legal profession, the most powerful may be the little-know pre-paid legal service plan. The private judicare model is poised to change the face of the legal profession. Too poor to hire a lawyer and too rich for legal aid, an estimated one in three Canadian families who need legal help each year recoil from hiring a lawyer because of the cost." There is more, but if you’re interested, I’m sure it’s archived in the law libraries. As for scams, lawyers charged me in excess of $30,000 to do my divorce. Where’s the scam here? — Make it a great day! Cathy Perry (403) 901-1065 http://www.justiceispower.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SCAM ALERT Prepaid legal plans are a MLM scam. You get to pay a monthly fee to get to talk to a lawyer on the phone. Everyone else gets to talk to lawyers (initially) for free. AVOID PREPAID LEGAL SCAMS AT ALL COSTS UNLESS YOU WANT TO DEMONSTRATE YOU ARE A FOOL. Want a lawyer? The Canadian Lawyer Index will find you one for free. Go to http://www.canlaw.com My name is Cathy Perry and I am seeking 100 people to complete a quick legal survey.  I am in the business of marketing prepaid legal plans and wish to better understand what the consumer wants and needs in the area of legal help. If you are interested in participating, please send me an email to To thank you for completing the survey and your time, I will send you a free report and a copy of the survey results once completed.  Also, please note that your information will be kept in the strictest confidence.

Response:

Why dont you tell us why over 75% people who use prepaid legal plans leave

Perhaps the buyers eventually realize that they are paying for something that is of little or no use to most people… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My name is Cathy Perry and I am seeking 100 people to complete a quick legal survey.  I am in the business of marketing prepaid legal plans and wish to better understand what the consumer wants and needs in the area of legal help. If you are interested in participating, please send me an email to To thank you for completing the survey and your time, I will send you a free report and a copy of the survey results once completed.  Also, please note that your information will be kept in the strictest confidence. — Make it a great day! Cathy Perry (403) 901-1065 http://www.justiceispower.com

– The following list of e-mail addresses is intended to sting spammers. They are not mine, so do not use them to reply to me.

Response:

Recently chastised and forced to restate financial information, (resulting in the vanishing of two-thirds of the book stockholders’ equity) review of Prepaid Legal (PPD) financial information reveals the following: Amounts were paid to several officers and directors, apparently without those individuals reporting the amounts to the IRS as income. Lessee, half a million dollars to this guy, $350,000 to the Chief Operating Officer, and, what’s this? $2.6 *million* to "certain marketing consultants"? And, the company doesn’t even call those payments "expenses" – it calls them "loans". So, it pretends to the financial community that those payments are really "profits" available to the public stockholders. Ummmm.. OK, stockholders, see if you can get those "profits". Heck, just show me where they are, and tell me if you will *ever* get the benefit of those. Well, as long as their debits equal their credits, I suppose the beady-eyed internal auditors won’t have any problem there. Best –  Fido

Response:

Scam? you judge and I quote – an exermpt from the National Lawyer magazine (Canadian Bar Association), Aug/Sept 2000 edition. "Meet the legal service format of the 21st century: Judicare. Of all the forces buffeting the legal profession, the most powerful may be the little-know pre-paid legal service plan. The private judicare model is poised to change the face of the legal profession. Too poor to hire a lawyer and too rich for legal aid, an estimated one in three Canadian families who need legal help each year recoil from hiring a lawyer because of the cost." There is more, but if you’re interested, I’m sure it’s archived in the law libraries.

That reads like a prepaid advertisement rather than an unbiased article. As for scams, lawyers charged me in excess of $30,000 to do my divorce. Where’s the scam here?

Why didn’t you get a do-it-yourself dissolution? If you and the man that you used to love (remember when you just couldn’t get enough of each other?) had agreed on everything, then your divorce would have been pretty economical. Saying that you paid $30,000 for a divorce doesn’t really give anyone any useful information. My guess is that most of that money was paid to litigate child custody, right? How will your prepaid legal plan deal with people who want to litigate?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Scam? you judge and I quote – an exermpt from the National Lawyer magazine (Canadian Bar Association), Aug/Sept 2000 edition. "Meet the legal service format of the 21st century: Judicare. Of all the forces buffeting the legal profession, the most powerful may be the little-know pre-paid legal service plan. The private judicare model is poised to change the face of the legal profession. Too poor to hire a lawyer and too rich for legal aid, an estimated one in three Canadian families who need legal help each year recoil from hiring a lawyer because of the cost." There is more, but if you’re interested, I’m sure it’s archived in the law libraries. As for scams, lawyers charged me in excess of $30,000 to do my divorce. Where’s the scam here?

The prepaid legal services plan I investigated doesn’t handle divorces.  Or child custody or support matters.  Or spousal support matters.  Or criminal defense (unless the crime was allegedly committed on the job).  And on one of its bigger marketing points – defense of traffic citations – it doesn’t defend you if the citation is meritorious (which they almost always are). The scam is that those categories cover the majority of the legal problems that the average person might face, so the customer ends up paying for something that probably has no value to him. — The following list of e-mail addresses is intended to sting spammers. They are not mine, so do not use them to reply to me.

Response:

That is why spamming receives such a negative response.  It is *almost* as rude as telemarketers. Subversionmania Not only that, spamming violates our F.A.Q.

Here is the cite from the ASD FAQ: Q25:  Anything else I should know before I post? A25:  Yes.  If you have an axe to grind, an agenda to sell, or if you are  troller or spammer:  GO AWAY.  We won’t like you and you won’t like us. I think that pretty much covers it. Best – Fido

Response:

SCAM ALERT Prepaid legal plans are a MLM scam. You get to pay a monthly fee to get to talk to a lawyer on the phone. Everyone else gets to talk to lawyers (initially) for free.

Now that’s not entirely true.  "Prepaid legal", itself, may be (I don’t doubt it, but I have no personal evidence either way) an MLM scam, but there are "legal insurance" companies, where you pay a monthly fee (smaller than Prepaid legal), and get free consultations, some services free, and most services at a discounted rate. As I don’t get a kickback for advertising the scheme I use, I won’t do so. —

Response:

My name is Cathy Perry and I am seeking 100 people to complete a quick legal survey.  I am in the business of marketing prepaid legal plans and wish to better understand what the consumer wants and needs in the area of legal help. If you are interested in participating, please send me an email to To thank you for completing the survey and your time, I will send you a free report and a copy of the survey results once completed.  Also, please note that your information will be kept in the strictest confidence. — Make it a great day! Cathy Perry (403) 901-1065 http://www.justiceispower.com

Response:

Question:

Hi, There is a big world out there for accounting/finance professionals besides public CPA firms.  My question is if I graduate and work for say a Fortune 500 firm straight out of the gate in cost accounting or whatever, is there a way for me to get audit hours necessary for the CPA license?  Or do ALL Cpas have to work for a public accounting firm or the government to start?

Response:

Nando, Why do you want the CPA if your plan is to work in corporate accounting?  An alternative you may consider is the CMA and CFM designations from the Institute of Management Accountants.  You can find them at http://www.imanet.org/ These designations are designed for the accountant who works with internal reporting and measures.  They go beyond the scope of accounting issues and deal with a much broader scope of corporate matters such as organization, communication, information systems, quantitative analysis, etc. I have taken two of the four exams with the third exam later this week.  I would be happy to discuss this with you further if you are interested. Don Regards, Donald A Haney, MBA Emergency Care Specialists, PC "Learning occurs in the mind, independent of time and place." – Plato

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, There is a big world out there for accounting/finance professionals besides public CPA firms.  My question is if I graduate and work for say a Fortune 500 firm straight out of the gate in cost accounting or whatever, is there a way for me to get audit hours necessary for the CPA license?  Or do ALL Cpas have to work for a public accounting firm or the government to start?

Response:

Most states allow (I say most states but I don’t know that for a fact – I know PA & NJ allow) credit for working within an internal audit department of a corporation.  Therefore, you would have to be hired by corporation that has a definitive audit department and you must be supervised by an active CPA. I noticed during my tenure in a large corp. that a majority of CPA’s tended to let their licenses lapse which does cause problems for subordinates trying to get licensed.   Since they obtained fairly good positions within the corp., they felt that it was a waste to keep their licenses active since they "didn’t do tax returns".   Also, a CPA license is certainly not a priority within a corporation to the extent that  it is in a public firm.  Therefore, if you haven’t passed the exam yet it’s doubtful that a corp.  will give you time to study for/take the exam as a public firm commonly does.  Sorry, but my recommendation is to spend the initial year or two with a public firm and then make your move to whatever you really want to do.  It will really save you a lot of hassle in the long run if you really want to get licensed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, There is a big world out there for accounting/finance professionals besides public CPA firms.  My question is if I graduate and work for say a Fortune 500 firm straight out of the gate in cost accounting or whatever, is there a way for me to get audit hours necessary for the CPA license?  Or do ALL Cpas have to work for a public accounting firm or the government to start?

Response:

Nando it’s not necessary to clock CPA hours only through CPA firms. the reason is simple. if this is the case, then there will not be any accountants left in the commercial line.

Response:

In both Texas and Louisiana, the experience requirements are such that, you must work under the supervision of a CPA.  The Louisiana law is written, that a controller for a small company, if his work is somewhere connected with or reviewed by a CPA, e.g. audited, reviewed, can receive the necessary experience to become a CPA.  The downside of this is the number of years required to meet the experience requirements.  I can not remember the exact requirements, but its something like this: 1) Working in public accounting, you get hour for hour credit. 2) Working in industry, the experience may be 2 to 1 (for every hour of experience you would get 1/2 hour of credit). The only way to find out is to contact the State Board of Accountancy in the state you want to sit for the exam to find their experience requirements. Francis P. Caliva Jr., CPA San Antonio TX

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, There is a big world out there for accounting/finance professionals besides public CPA firms.  My question is if I graduate and work for say a Fortune 500 firm straight out of the gate in cost accounting or whatever, is there a way for me to get audit hours necessary for the CPA license?  Or do ALL Cpas have to work for a public accounting firm or the government to start?

Response:

Question:

Hey Guys

Question:

Hello Im currently writing an accounts program for you internetty dudes! Also please see further down for a genuine question – coping with someone who is a supplier and customer. See it at www.btinternet.com/~chulcoop If anyone was there when I last told a newsgroup about this it has changed – now Trial, Balance and P&L should be supported and soon assets will be too. Great for learning me thinks – or is it? I have been flamed before for providing a free service to the public (how dare i inform people of some free software I have written )  but some people have helped so please if your not interested ignore this. However I wish to develop this for accountants by accountants and have incorporated a few ideas from other people.  Stocks and assets to come. A question that is really bugging me though – a joint sales/purchase account. Suppose person a is both a supplier and a customer  , how is this handled? Are there two seperate accounts each of the Sales and Purchases ledger which are unrelated (apart from having the same details) is this so rare it is not bothered about? I s  the account shared amongst the ledgers? I have read a lot of books e.g. Woods but this does not seem to be covered. I would be grateful of any help you can provide, Cliff.

Response:

It’s a fairly common situation, and one that most bookkeeping/accounting software doesn’t handle well. Although there is much info that is common to both customers and vendors, and in many ways sales and AR data are mirrors of purchases and AP, there are nevertheless a number of differences.  It may be possible to design a system with a single ledger for AR and AP, and a single file for customers and vendors, but I’ve not seen it done. Aside from the differences between AR and AP, perhaps the most compelling reason to treat them separately and differently is the legal issues about the right of offset.  It is not automatically correct and legal to offset receivables from a person with payables to the same person, and it may not be desirable even when legal.  Careful separation of AR/sales functions from AP/purchases is a significant aspect of internal control in many businesses, though that may not be a consideration for most smaller businesses.  Any system that makes it too easy to offset receivables with payables might contribute to serious financial and legal problems. I find that QuickBooks takes a reasonable approach to these issues, and undoubtedly the procedures (or similar) that work in QB also work in other software.  QB procedures include the following: AR and AP ledgers are separate, customer and vendor files are separate.  You cannot buy from a customer or sell to a vendor.  QB does, however, allow you to easily issue a check to a customer and receive money from vendors – quite difficult to do in some software, intentionally, for reasons of internal control.  QB documentation describes procedures to create separate customer and vendor records for the same person, and to offset AR and AP balances for such a person when appropriate; it seems to me that these procedures are less onerous than in much other software, but still sufficient to provide a reasonable degree of internal control. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Suppose person a is both a supplier and a customer  , how is this handled? Are there two seperate accounts each of the Sales and Purchases ledger which are unrelated (apart from having the same details) is this so rare it is not bothered about? I s  the account shared amongst the ledgers?

Response:

However I wish to develop this for accountants by accountants and have incorporated a few ideas from other people.  Stocks and assets to come.

Cool.   But I recommend you focus on cash flow if you’re not already doing so. That means tools and reports and functinos to make managing the cash, payables and receivables and inventory easier so the company will actually do it <G Suppose person a is both a supplier and a customer  , how is this handled? Are there two seperate accounts each of the Sales and Purchases ledger which are unrelated (apart from having the same details) is this so rare it is not bothered about?   Is  the account shared amongst the ledgers?

It happens often enough.  Haven’t you examined Quickbooks, Peachtree, or a few other accounting packages?  They usually have totally separate Vendor Lists and Customer lists.   And totally separate APs and ARs, of course.   Users can always post negative amounts into the accounts.  Quickbooks has a defect in its database design that makes it impossible to post an accounting entry between any two customer or vendor accounts but that is a unique problem none of the other accounting packages have. — Want to do everybody a REALLY great service?  Develop your program to ride alongside any of the good contact managers or directories.  IMAP4 would be really spectacular! But Outlook, ACT! or GOldmine would be pretty exciting too… Todd

Response:

Wow, good post Vern.  This is an interesting area; anybody interested? run this query on http://www.altavista.com  +"accounts" +"receivable" +payable +"right of offset" But the ability to sell to a vendor or buy from a customer is something that should be an option in any accounting package.  These are not something profane, they happen all the time.  And in most cases, even where the system maintains a single "Contacts" database, these transactions are carried in separate payables and receivables attached to the same ENTITY.  (don’t confuse the AR/AP with the Contact entity) I think maintaining separate records for customers and vendors in accounting software is done mainly to clean up the user interface in the Maintain Vendors and Maintain Customers screens.  There are already an intimidating number of settings in those screens, so they keep them separate.   I see many evidences of software designers simplifying and beautifying the user interface to bring it within reach of people with lower skillsets.  But I don’t see any similar level of concern by designers, over highfalutin’ problems like right of offset.  These are the same guys who gave bookkeepers the power to revise entries without a trace, and create many other major, major accounting problems! so gimme a break <G TOdd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a fairly common situation, and one that most bookkeeping/accounting software doesn’t handle well. Although there is much info that is common to both customers and vendors, and in many ways sales and AR data are mirrors of purchases and AP, there are nevertheless a number of differences.  It may be possible to design a system with a single ledger for AR and AP, and a single file for customers and vendors, but I’ve not seen it done. Aside from the differences between AR and AP, perhaps the most compelling reason to treat them separately and differently is the legal issues about the right of offset.  It is not automatically correct and legal to offset receivables from a person with payables to the same person, and it may not be desirable even when legal.  Careful separation of AR/sales functions from AP/purchases is a significant aspect of internal control in many businesses, though that may not be a consideration for most smaller businesses.  Any system that makes it too easy to offset receivables with payables might contribute to serious financial and legal problems. I find that QuickBooks takes a reasonable approach to these issues, and undoubtedly the procedures (or similar) that work in QB also work in other software.  QB procedures include the following: AR and AP ledgers are separate, customer and vendor files are separate.  You cannot buy from a customer or sell to a vendor.  QB does, however, allow you to easily issue a check to a customer and receive money from vendors – quite difficult to do in some software, intentionally, for reasons of internal control.  QB documentation describes procedures to create separate customer and vendor records for the same person, and to offset AR and AP balances for such a person when appropriate; it seems to me that these procedures are less onerous than in much other software, but still sufficient to provide a reasonable degree of internal control. Suppose person a is both a supplier and a customer  , how is this handled? Are there two seperate accounts each of the Sales and Purchases ledger which are unrelated (apart from having the same details) is this so rare it is not bothered about? I s  the account shared amongst the ledgers?

Response:

Question:

I am looking at some of the software packages that allow you to accept client checks over the phone, fax, email, etc., and print a c heck out to deposit.  Does anyone have any suggestions as to a good package for this?  Inexpensive?  So far, the sites I’ve found on the net selling it provide no phone number or address, not even a company name.  I am leery of giving out MY checking information to order software from some possible fly-by-web outfit. Also would like to know if anyone has used these packages and whether they’re ok or if you’ve had problems. Thanks, — Carla Before you buy.

Response:

in alt.accounting: I am looking at some of the software packages that allow you to accept client checks over the phone, fax, email, etc., and print a c heck out to deposit.  Does anyone have any suggestions as to a good package for this?  Inexpensive?  So far, the sites I’ve found on the net selling it provide no phone number or address, not even a company name.  I am leery of giving out MY checking information to order software from some possible fly-by-web outfit. Also would like to know if anyone has used these packages and whether they’re ok or if you’ve had problems. Thanks,

We have used http://www.checkmagic.com/ ($19.95-$59.95) for a long time. It prints blank checks by itself, which you can use for client checks over the phone. It also prints filled in checks on blank paper from within QuickBooks or Peachtree. This is very valuable if companies must switch between several accounts. We have not found banks that need magnetic toner for a while.   Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.              World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester 450+ page QB book/free updates $10 QB add-ons http://www.blocktax.com/    Ft Lauderdale FL 954-566-7540

Response:

We have used http://www.checkmagic.com/ ($19.95-$59.95) for a long time. It prints blank checks by itself, which you can use for client

Thanks Mike!  I checked out that website and called the company.  They said that their program was really not designed to input a client’s checking information, which is what I primarily want.  It’s more for printing your OWN company’s checks  The program looks great, but I have seen others on the net that will even let you keep a data base of checking info on clients; useful for processing repetitive charges and such.  This is the type of program I am really looking for. Thought I’d share that information.  If I light on one, I will post it here to share.  :) Before you buy.

Response:

We have used http://www.checkmagic.com/ ($19.95-$59.95) for a long time. It prints blank checks by itself, which you can use for client Thanks Mike!  I checked out that website and called the company.  They said that their program was really not designed to input a client’s checking information, which is what I primarily want.  It’s more for printing your OWN company’s checks  The program looks great, but I have seen others on the net that will even let you keep a data base of checking info on clients; useful for processing repetitive charges and such.  This is the type of program I am really looking for. Thought I’d share that information.  If I light on one, I will post it here to share.  :)

I do not get commissions from Checkmagic. However, we have effectively created client (pre-authorized) checks and their price is less than that of many programs that only write such checks. They also have a downloadable demo you can try while you keep looking.   Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.              World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester 450+ page QB book/free updates $10 QB add-ons http://www.blocktax.com/    Ft Lauderdale FL 954-566-7540

Response:

Question:

ATC: Roger "unable", proceed direct and report holding west of XYZ, expect further at 1800. You (thinking to yourself): Sh*t,… its only 1700.   I’ve never had anything like this.  If you have a valid reason for being unable to comply, ATC will try to work something out.

I think this thread has worked full circle. Snowbird said she has good luck and good negotiating skill, but still doesn’t always get the IFR routing she feels is both safe and desirable. Someone else posted that the PIC always has the option of saying "unable’. ATC then has to deal with that and many times their solution is to park you. The above happened to me: Expecting a handoff, Providence breaks to say that NY App is not taking any handoffs at this time, proceed yadda yadda yadda. I, along with four other planes, were given holds with projected durations of over 60 minutes. I was holding at some int west of Montauk, over land. One of the others got an intersection hold in the middle of Block Island Sound, not a comforting place in IMC. My point? In IFR, ATC will usually treat SE the same as a KingAir, and therefore being "in the system" might just increase your perceived safety risk. And asking for a decent to VFR to get out of the system is seldom granted from my experience.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ATC: Roger "unable", proceed direct and report holding west of XYZ, expect further at 1800. You (thinking to yourself): Sh*t,… its only 1700.   Sounds like a good time for "Roger, N12345 would like to cancel IFR at this time; squawking 1200, g’day".  <g That works, unless you have boxed yourself by undertaking a flight where specific routing and altitude are important (such as a SEL flight overwater) in less than VFR conditions. Which returns me full circle to my post which started this thread, in which I expressed the opinion that maybe IFR flight in such circumstances was not the brightest bulb in the lamp, and might *limit* options and safety in some circs. Snowbird Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Well, what you really said was that a pilot needs negotiating skills in order not to compromise safety. This is simply not the case. Once a pilot has accepted a clearance he (or she) feels is safe, the pilot need not accept any amendment to that clearance which he (or she) feels might jeopardize the safety of the flight, and in fact, I believe, without consulting the regs, is REQUIRED to refuse a clearance that he (or she) considers unsafe. I have more than once refused an altitude where icing could have been a problem, and routes over water outside of gliding distance to shore. Not once has ATC ever required me to "negotiate".  I might have been inconvenienced with a brief hold or a longer routing, but safety was never an issue. And stop saying "been there, done that".  It’s trite and arrogant.

Response:

ATC: Roger "unable", proceed direct and report holding west of XYZ, expect further at 1800. You (thinking to yourself): Sh*t,… its only 1700.   Sounds like a good time for "Roger, N12345 would like to cancel IFR at this time; squawking 1200, g’day".  <g

That works, unless you have boxed yourself by undertaking a flight where specific routing and altitude are important (such as a SEL flight overwater) in less than VFR conditions. Which returns me full circle to my post which started this thread, in which I expressed the opinion that maybe IFR flight in such circumstances was not the brightest bulb in the lamp, and might *limit* options and safety in some circs. Snowbird Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

You don’t need negotiating skills if you feel that an amended clearance would jeopardize the safety of your flight. All you need to be able to say is "unable". ATC: Roger "unable", proceed direct and report holding west of XYZ, expect further at 1800. You (thinking to yourself): Sh*t,… its only 1700.   I’ve never had anything like this.  If you have a valid reason for being unable to comply, ATC will try to work something out.

*sigh* I don’t seem able to convince some people, who perhaps have never experienced this themselves, but *this just doesn’t always work*.  Fact. Yes, ATC will try to work something out, if you ask nicely. I ask very nicely, I explain why, and I usually get what I ask for. That’s usually. If the airspace in question is very busy, and conditions are IMC, *all the good wishes in the world* won’t create the routing or altitude you want, no matter how much the controller might wish that it did.  No matter how many times you might say "unable". If you refuse a descent or a vector with a longer route over water, and they don’t have anyplace to put you on your current heading and altitude, what alternative do they have?  They can give you a hold. That’s it. Even if you tell the controller you’re in a SE plane and wish to stay within glide distance of land.  "Roger, can you accept VFR on top?"  "Negative, we’re IMC" "Sorry, I can’t accommodate 10,000 direct Palm Beach, descend and maintain 4,000 on present heading or turn right 40 degrees, expect on course in 20 minutes, your choice".  Been there, heard that, learned something. Same thing applies to routing around NYC.  The controller might want to give you an immediate descent out of the top 1000 ft of clouds or an immediate vector around weather, but if the airspace is crowded, *they just can’t*.  They have separation standards which they can’t violate unless there’s a true emergency. Believe me or don’t, I don’t care. Snow"not wanting to descend is not an emergency"bird Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

: Think someone covered JFK Jr’s instrument panel? Hey – I can appreciate your not wanted to get spam, but could makes editing responses a real pain.  :-) Cheers, Rick —

Response:

I don’t really know why Canadian pilots have this better-than-you attitude towards Americans. Get a life. Live with it. We are #1.

Maybe because of arrogant attitudes like yours?

Response:

I don’t really know why Canadian pilots have this better-than-you attitude towards Americans. Get a life. Live with it. We are #1.

              the crown prince is dead:                    http://bounce.to/thetruth Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I don’t really know why Canadian pilots have this better-than-you attitude towards Americans. Get a life. Live with it. We are #1. Given everything that we now know about cold blooded assassins,

their tactics, their resources and their obsessions, on the balance of probability, the assassination of the crown prince was stage managed.                               the crown prince is dead:                    http://bounce.to/thetruth Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

You don’t need negotiating skills if you feel that an amended clearance would jeopardize the safety of your flight. All you need to be able to say is "unable". ATC: Roger "unable", proceed direct and report holding west of XYZ, expect further at 1800. You (thinking to yourself): Sh*t,… its only 1700.  

Sounds like a good time for "Roger, N12345 would like to cancel IFR at this time; squawking 1200, g’day".  <g – bill

Response:

You don’t need negotiating skills if you feel that an amended clearance would jeopardize the safety of your flight. All you need to be able to say is "unable". ATC: Roger "unable", proceed direct and report holding west of XYZ, expect further at 1800. You (thinking to yourself): Sh*t,… its only 1700.  

I’ve never had anything like this.  If you have a valid reason for being unable to comply, ATC will try to work something out.  In fact, you don’t necessarily have to be unable.  Just ask for something different, in a friendly voice, & (briefly) explain why.  Controllers get paid to provide service to you.  That’s their job.  There are controllers who don’t want to do their job, just like there are pilots who don’t want to do theirs, but both are in the minority.  A friendly attitude will get you a lot, & holding is a last resort with everyone. Controllers don’t want you going around in circles in their airspace, while they keep the airspace clear around you.   — Regards, Stan

Response:

I’ve never had anything like this.  If you have a valid reason for being unable to comply, ATC will try to work something out.

But it may not be within their ability to give you what you really want. Example: flying out of the Milwaukee area heading southeast you have three options:  go out over the middle of Lake Michigan (via the aptly named "BRAVE" intersection), take the long route around to the west of O’Hare (taking you as far west as Rockford), going over O’Hare at 12000+ feet.  Chicago center is simply not able to provide a clearance through ORD airspace.  None of these choices are particuarly palatable.  Blanket the whole area with MVFR ceilings and put weather over Rockford moving east and your choices are suddenly *very* limited.  Holding or landing may be the only reasonable choices. In fact, you don’t necessarily have to be unable.  Just ask for something different, in a friendly voice, & (briefly) explain why.

I’ve done that.  Sometimes it works.  And sometimes I get a response back in an equally friendly voice explaining why I simply cannot have what I am asking for. —                                 William LeFebvre                                 Group sys Consulting                                 +1 770 813 3224

Response:

You probably right as long as you are willing to restrict yourself to flying during the day or on clear nights when the moon is out.  Personally I have had several indicidents of flying at night into an area of reduced visibility.  I was glad to have an instrument rating and be able to get a clearance and continue. The big problem with most instrument rated pilots is that they do not practice enough.

Response:

Ditto here!   Mary and I have started doing an hour of "hood time" on every flight now… When I was getting my Private back in ‘94 my wise old instructor took me out over Lake Michigan at night, waited until the lights of the shoreline were well behind us, and then covered my instrument panel with his clipboard. Within 20 seconds, we were in an unusual attitude.   15 seconds more, and we’d have been dead. It was the best lesson I ever learned, and sure sounds like what happened to JFK. Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Warrior N33431 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I’ve been putting off completing my IFR training due to time demands involving my job.  After hearing about John Kennedy, I have shifted my priorities.

Response:

In Canada single-engine ops beyond gliding distance from shore are not permitted.  Also, all flights, including VFR require a flight plan.  Also, we just got VFR-on-top OK’d, but I think it’s dumb.  In the U.S. and Canada, there’s been lots of times when I’ve flown into really dark skies at night VFR, and was glad I had lots of IFR training, even without the rating.  Also here in the Arctic it’s not uncommon to have no horizon but still be legal VFR. — VY0DU  April 1, 1999

Response:

In Canada single-engine ops beyond gliding distance from shore are not permitted.

wrong.  I legally fly C-registered single-engine aircraft out of gliding distance of shore all the time.  Great Lakes, Gulf of Mexico. Please give me a CAR # for this – I’ll give you a hint – there isn’t one, with the exception of the FTU 405/425 which I am almost certain you are incorrectly quoting as it is not applicable. —

Response:

I guess we all feel bad for the Kennedy and the Bessette

families…… I used to live in New England (in mass.) and, even though I was a pre- teen at the time, I don’t remember a whole hell of a lot of VFR weather in the 4 or 5 years we lived there. I wouldn’t have attempted the flight he made VFR, but I dunno. I guess we could try to armchair pilot that situation forever, but instead I’m thinking of it as something to learn from. It is an incentive for me to revisit the idea of pursuing an IR. I discussed it a little with my CFI today and got an idea of what would be involved. The only real difficult part of the decision would be financing it. Trust me, no other armtwisting is really needed – my occasion to talk to my CFI came today when I flew safety pilot for him for his IFR currency. Along the way, I got some complex time his turbo Arrow and got to shoot 3 landings in it. Wow – being able to fly a plane like that is a pretty strong incentive to get a complex cert. and eventually an IR! for me it’s very ironic because yesterday I had my first IFR lesson……. initially my husband had somewhat of a problem with me continuing my flight training with an instrument rating (he’s not a pilot and I’ve had to convince him that it would make me a better and safer pilot) but now he’s all for it….

As my CFI has told me from time to time, we are taking a calculated risk when we fly and there’s no guarantee that something won’t happen. Course, you don’t want to knowingly increase that risk (one reason I took my own plane out of service for a rebuild, or why I cancel flights if weather/wind is outside my limits, etc..), but there is always some element of danger we accept with doing this job and we just have to weigh that in. Important thing is, what I’ve gotten out of it has always made the risk worth it. I think that, when that stops being the case, I’ll hang up my wings. Yes, I hope we hear something soon… Lucien S. PP-ASEL. Captain America IV Now In Progress. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyhow, I hope we find out soon what happened with JFK and his two passengers….. Martina I’ve been thinking along these lines also, since resuming GA flying recently. IMC is a daily possibility in TX during the summer…. After the rebuild is done on the UL (and I’ve recovered financially a little bit 8)), I believe I’ll get started on the instrument myself. I’ll probably be flying safety for my CFI today (getting his IFR currency out of the way) and will bring up the subject before we fly. I’m greatly saddened by the JFK event, as I am anytime one of us is lost in an accident. Lucien S. PP-ASEL.     I’ve been putting off completing my IFR training due to time demands involving my job.  After hearing about John Kennedy, I have shifted my priorities.  Seems to be a classic spatial disorientation accident. I completed two IFR lessons today, and will be doing more tomorrow and next     By the way, I checked the moon data for last night.  The moon was only 16% full, and rose at 9:30 and set at 23:00.  Not much help there. Add heavy haze, a featureless ocean, and a low-time VFR pilot flying a Saratoga (and possibly some distraction in the cockpit) and you have the proper ingredients for disorientation, followed by pilot error (i.e., inability to keep the wings level, and a stall-spin). Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I’ve been putting off completing my IFR training due to time demands involving my job.  After hearing about John Kennedy, I have shifted my priorities. This is probably a minority viewpoint, but while I’m all for IFR training (and we frequently file and fly IFR), I do not care to fly overwater flights IFR, especially in busy areas. My reason is: when flying VFR, I pick my route and my altitude. I get to minimize the blue spaces and maximize the green spaces on the chart, and minimize the time I’ll spend outside glide distance from landable terra firma. When flying IFR in a busy corridor, ATC gets to set my route and my altitude, and if traffic is heavy all the negotiating skills I possess won’t suffice to keep me higher when ATC decides that it suits them to have me descend, nor will it get me a more direct overwater routing if the standard approach routing to my destination crosses the water less directly. Been there, had that happen despite what I consider pretty good ATC negotiating skills, never again if I can help it.

You don’t need negotiating skills if you feel that an amended clearance would jeopardize the safety of your flight. All you need to be able to say is "unable". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So if I wouldn’t be comfortable making an overwater flight VFR, with flight following (and in 3-5 mile visibility, at night with no moon, I personally wouldn’t be for more than one reason), I would stay on the ground. Just another viewpoint, and not intending to argue that it isn’t an excellent idea to pursue an instrument rating.  Good luck! Snowbird Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I don’t really know why Canadian pilots have this better-than-you attitude towards Americans. Get a life. Live with it. We are #1.

Response:

When I was getting my Private back in ‘94 my wise old instructor took me out over Lake Michigan at night, waited until the lights of the shoreline were well behind us, and then covered my instrument panel with his clipboard. Within 20 seconds, we were in an unusual attitude.

The same thing can happen out in the western US.  In far SW Texas, there are places with little or no lights for miles.  I have had many times where I couldn’t tell where the sky ended and the ground began.  It may be severe clear with stars all around, but with so few lights on the ground you can’t tell the sky from the ground.  If it’s hazy or overcast, you are in big-time trouble. Same goes for the mountains of Colorado, deserts of Arizona,  plains of Montana.  I think if you are a VFR-only pilot, you should only fly at night on severe clear days with good lighting around.  An IFR ticked is the best insurance of all. James Pratt

Response:

In Canada single-engine ops beyond gliding distance from shore are not permitted.

I find that statement hard to believe! How is this handled with single engine in the IFR environment? Also, all flights, including VFR require a flight plan.

This sounds like something the accountants cooked up to add revenue to the new ATC system. Mike.

Response:

You don’t need negotiating skills if you feel that an amended clearance would jeopardize the safety of your flight. All you need to be able to say is "unable".

ATC: Roger "unable", proceed direct and report holding west of XYZ, expect further at 1800. You (thinking to yourself): Sh*t,… its only 1700.  

Response:

    I’ve been putting off completing my IFR training due to time demands involving my job.  After hearing about John Kennedy, I have shifted my priorities.

This is probably a minority viewpoint, but while I’m all for IFR training (and we frequently file and fly IFR), I do not care to fly overwater flights IFR, especially in busy areas. My reason is: when flying VFR, I pick my route and my altitude. I get to minimize the blue spaces and maximize the green spaces on the chart, and minimize the time I’ll spend outside glide distance from landable terra firma. When flying IFR in a busy corridor, ATC gets to set my route and my altitude, and if traffic is heavy all the negotiating skills I possess won’t suffice to keep me higher when ATC decides that it suits them to have me descend, nor will it get me a more direct overwater routing if the standard approach routing to my destination crosses the water less directly. Been there, had that happen despite what I consider pretty good ATC negotiating skills, never again if I can help it. So if I wouldn’t be comfortable making an overwater flight VFR, with flight following (and in 3-5 mile visibility, at night with no moon, I personally wouldn’t be for more than one reason), I would stay on the ground. Just another viewpoint, and not intending to argue that it isn’t an excellent idea to pursue an instrument rating.  Good luck! Snowbird Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

    I’ve been putting off completing my IFR training due to time demands involving my job.  After hearing about John Kennedy, I have shifted my priorities.  Seems to be a classic spatial disorientation accident.   I completed two IFR lessons today, and will be doing more tomorrow and next     By the way, I checked the moon data for last night.  The moon was only 16% full, and rose at 9:30 and set at 23:00.  Not much help there.  Add heavy haze, a featureless ocean, and a low-time VFR pilot flying a Saratoga (and possibly some distraction in the cockpit) and you have the proper ingredients for disorientation, followed by pilot error (i.e., inability to keep the wings level, and a stall-spin).

Response:

I’ve been thinking along these lines also, since resuming GA flying recently. IMC is a daily possibility in TX during the summer…. After the rebuild is done on the UL (and I’ve recovered financially a little bit 8)), I believe I’ll get started on the instrument myself. I’ll probably be flying safety for my CFI today (getting his IFR currency out of the way) and will bring up the subject before we fly. I’m greatly saddened by the JFK event, as I am anytime one of us is lost in an accident. Lucien S. PP-ASEL. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I’ve been putting off completing my IFR training due to time demands involving my job.  After hearing about John Kennedy, I have shifted my priorities.  Seems to be a classic spatial disorientation accident. I completed two IFR lessons today, and will be doing more tomorrow and next     By the way, I checked the moon data for last night.  The moon was only 16% full, and rose at 9:30 and set at 23:00.  Not much help there. Add heavy haze, a featureless ocean, and a low-time VFR pilot flying a Saratoga (and possibly some distraction in the cockpit) and you have the proper ingredients for disorientation, followed by pilot error (i.e., inability to keep the wings level, and a stall-spin).

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

I guess we all feel bad for the Kennedy and the Bessette families…… for me it’s very ironic because yesterday I had my first IFR lesson……. initially my husband had somewhat of a problem with me continuing my flight training with an instrument rating (he’s not a pilot and I’ve had to convince him that it would make me a better and safer pilot) but now he’s all for it…. Anyhow, I hope we find out soon what happened with JFK and his two passengers….. Martina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been thinking along these lines also, since resuming GA flying recently. IMC is a daily possibility in TX during the summer…. After the rebuild is done on the UL (and I’ve recovered financially a little bit 8)), I believe I’ll get started on the instrument myself. I’ll probably be flying safety for my CFI today (getting his IFR currency out of the way) and will bring up the subject before we fly. I’m greatly saddened by the JFK event, as I am anytime one of us is lost in an accident. Lucien S. PP-ASEL.     I’ve been putting off completing my IFR training due to time demands involving my job.  After hearing about John Kennedy, I have shifted my priorities.  Seems to be a classic spatial disorientation accident. I completed two IFR lessons today, and will be doing more tomorrow and next     By the way, I checked the moon data for last night.  The moon was only 16% full, and rose at 9:30 and set at 23:00.  Not much help there. Add heavy haze, a featureless ocean, and a low-time VFR pilot flying a Saratoga (and possibly some distraction in the cockpit) and you have the proper ingredients for disorientation, followed by pilot error (i.e., inability to keep the wings level, and a stall-spin). Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

As I stated in my previous post, it’s not the lab techs, but those who administer the lab who need to answer to this.  Sevenoaks is a government run forensics lab.  As such, those who run the lab are government officials, not technicians.    Market forces are becoming increasingly important in forensic science.[....]

I’m sure wiser words were never typed, but I didn’t write any of what you attributed to me above. jon.

Response:

As I stated in my previous post, it’s not the lab techs, but those who administer the lab who need to answer to this.  Sevenoaks is a government run forensics lab.  As such, those who run the lab are government officials, not technicians.

        Market forces are becoming increasingly important in forensic science. The importation of american style drug-testing into the UK along with the National DNA database is all parts of a ‘hi-tech with bells and whistles’ campaign to make the government look good on fighting crime, and simultaneously make healthy profits for some drug pushers aka pharmaceutical companies.         There is much more money in mass forensic science than in protecting a few innnocent individuals when bombs go off. We can be thankful for those police and security services who are able to disarm or anticipate bombs by the normal intelligence methods of paying informers, but there is a huge rivalry for getting budgets because of the workings of capitalism and the corporate elites who are the real rulers of our country.         It is hardly surprising that government laboratories make mistakes. As ‘civil service’ it is pretty sure that all the workers are afraid of losing their jobs to privatisation. The only workers left will be accountants who go and pay the subcontractors who do the tests.         The real cutting edge of forensic science is in drug testing for the military, and people in jail. That is where the big bucks are. It would be nice if the irish could be persuaded to follow the lead of the UK in this. It is much better if forensic science can also be applied where there is no crime at all in order to make it a profitable industry.         In the case of explosives testing the bulk commodity is airline and other transportation security checks. After the Lockerbie bomb an enormous amount of money was spent on luggage screening.         The airlines are powerful organisations in their own right, and have enough money and expertise to fight corporate interests, and demand a viable technology that works, at a reasonable price. They are also able to demand other methods, which maybe cheaper and just as effective: personal luggage reconciliation. The passenger takes their own baggage into the plane.         When the level of violence gets too high, forensic science cannot contribute anything at all to the solution of the problem. Other methods need to be tried.                                 tony goddard Tony Goddard (London & Belfast) http://www.webstrand.org/tony/tony.htm

Response:

As I stated in my previous post, it’s not the lab techs, but those who administer the lab who need to answer to this.  Sevenoaks is a government run forensics lab.  As such, those who run the lab are government officials, not technicians. I asked for evidence, and all I get is supposition.  Your reasoning could apply equally to any such mishap.  

After so many high profile ‘miscarrages of justice’ (read police frame ups) of Irish people in England it would be naive in the extreme to imagine that the ‘high ups’ in the British government either did not know about this latest scandel _or_ had given clear indications that they did not want to know.  No dougbt though whatever inquiry occurs will scap-goat some technican for 25 years of British government policy and no dougbt many naive people in Britian will continue to belive in the ‘few rotton apples’ theory.  Lets not forget its not just the Irish the British state has been framing but just about anyone in Britain who dares to fight back also. Andrew Andrew For a pretty complete introduction to anarchism check out <a href= "http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2419"  All about anarchism </a Articles on authoritarian socialism and the <A  href= "http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2419/leftindx.html" Russian revolution </a 1921 – 1996 Remember revolutionary Kronstadt <A  href= "http://www.cs.utah.edu/~galt/kronstadt.html"  Kronstadt </a

Response:

;No, Jon.  The problem does not lie with the lab technicians here.  This ;fish is rotting from the head down and as much as the government would ;like to bury it, it won’t stop reeking to high heaven until they find out ;truth of the matter.

Congrats Lyn. Very well put. The problem is that they *will* bury it along with all the other blatant past examples of HMG misconduct in recent years. Who is to stop them, especially with someone like Jon fighting their corner? Take my advice, conform and live on your knees, it is much easier, especially on s.c.b. I see from a recent survey that 57%  of "surfers" are aged 31 – 50, 59% earn more than 25k and 29% earn more than 40k (compared with 7% of the general population). 23% are professionals (against 10% of the population) and 10% are company directors (against 2%). So what can you expect?  BTW the gender distribution is 69% male 31% female. We on s.c.b love the establishment and are among its most devoted acolytes. It is only the losers who protest and kick up a fuss because the underclasses can’t hack it in a real, competitive, capitalist, free market economy like your average "surfer". The Irish should knuckle down and get well paid jobs like the rest of us, or fuck of somewhere else and opine endlessly from a safe and cosy distance like Jon, instead of carping on all the time about injustice in the UK. Doug. — London, England, UK, EU.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I stated in my previous post, it’s not the lab techs, but those who administer the lab who need to answer to this.  Sevenoaks is a government run forensics lab.  As such, those who run the lab are government officials, not technicians. I asked for evidence, and all I get is supposition.  Your reasoning could apply equally to any such mishap.   After so many high profile ‘miscarrages of justice’ (read police frame ups) of Irish people in England it would be naive in the extreme to imagine that the ‘high ups’ in the British government either did not know about this latest scandel _or_ had given clear indications that they did not want to know.  No dougbt though whatever inquiry occurs will scap-goat some technican for 25 years of British government policy and no dougbt many naive people in Britian will continue to belive in the ‘few rotton apples’ theory.  Lets not forget its not just the Irish the British state has been framing but just about anyone in Britain who dares to fight back also.

So you also want to indulge in elaborate supposition instead of evidence. Let’s see where *your* reasoning leads.    People have been framed in the US, and minorities have been persecuted.   So we can confidently assume that every screw-up in a US lab involves an elaborate high-level cover up in the US Administration. Brilliant. jon.

Response:

: You are being very confused here, either deliberately or in error. Sorry, Jon.  I’ll try to outline it so you can understand. As I stated in my previous post, it’s not the lab techs, but those who administer the lab who need to answer to this.  Sevenoaks is a government run forensics lab.  As such, those who run the lab are government officials, not technicians.  Any forensics lab would have a QC program in which known standards and blanks should have been run on the contaminated centrifuge equipment, but it doesn’t stop there.  The lab would also have a quality assurance (QA) program in place as well- particularly since the lawyers of those convicted have been rebuked by the courts for the mere suggestion that there could have been a lab error which showed a false positive for the presence of explosives.  Please see the case of the Maguire family.  They were convicted soley on the basis of forensics showing explosives on their clothing, hands and household items.  We know now that evidence was either planted, falsified, or in error.  Annie Maguire and her children were not guilty in the bombings, but they were convicted and confined on the basis of the lab evidence. The judges cited impeccable lab results in denying the aquittals based on documentation that QA was in tact at the government forensic labs.  Yet any QA program includes independent auditing of lab practices and QC documentation.  If that ‘independent’ review and the documentation is in place for the time involved during the use of the contaminated centrifuge at the Sevenoaks, then clearly somebody at a fairly high up administrative level is not being honest about the incident. No, Jon.  The problem does not lie with the lab technicians here.  This fish is rotting from the head down and as much as the government would like to bury it, it won’t stop reeking to high heaven until they find out truth of the matter. Lynette

Response:

You are being very confused here, either deliberately or in error. The posting I replied to talked about the "authorities" and I really doubt if Britain is run by lab assistants.    It may well be that the lab assistants who ran this equipment were incompetent, or even that they convered up their error, but it’s misleading to say that lab assistants are the "they" in question. jon.

jon What a bloody cop out.  Ever hear of the expression the buck stops here.  The Crown prosecutors, the police and other agencies involved in the cover up including the not so high and mighty Lords of the Crown are as culpable and guilty as the lab assistant.  One does NOT take cases to court without evidence that is supposedly investigated, supported by other evidence, even circumstantial and guaranteed to be trustworthy.  Thankfully we are not talking about death sentences here, otherwise we wouldn’t exactly have much to celebrate now would we?  These corrupt, morally bankrupt law enforcement officials from the lab assistants to the judges have seen to it that many (debate the number…or just wait for the appellate rulings from Oh bejaysus the same corrupt Lords of the Crown) innocent people have been imprisoned for crimes they never commited.  The excuse that so many seem to be parrotting right now "that we stopped them from carrying out their dirty deeds" is sickening.  In a democracy one is considered innocent until proven guilty, not guilty anyway we can make it stick.  For that reason we don’t lock up all males because they could possibly commit rape, or child molestation/abuse. Safety checks, double checks, blind runs are SOP (standard operating procedures) for any organization that involves machinary of any kind….that is why the navy, the army etc etc run tests on their equipment regularly in anticipation of readiness.  These checks and balances are *supposed* to be for everyone’s benefit so that "accidents" i.e. false imprisonment, illegal convictions and falsely obtained "confessions" don’t get through to imprison innocent people. Like the plastic coverings on paying cards leaving "evidence" of bomb making, or beaten "confessions", altered police logs, and "shoot to kill" policies.  The British judicial system is a farce, that isn’t justice and old Bailey needs a make-over…like yeah the Balcombe Street gang really did plant the bombs and not poor Guiseppe and his family and relatives.   Cop on and start realising that what is being done in the Crown’s name is criminal and those that falsely obtained convictions should themselves be imprisoned…preferrably in the Republic…or better yet in the H Blocks with their falsely imprisoned victims. Cait

Response:

A stupid question, probably, but what are "the Lords of the Crown" ? PeterG in Toulouse

Response:

: A stupid question, probably, but what are "the Lords of the Crown" ? I kinda wondered about that – but I was also wondering how much of this story has been stretched and pounded to make it the "outrage" it is being painted.  Get many messages from test servers, by the way?  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are being very confused here, either deliberately or in error. The posting I replied to talked about the "authorities" and I really doubt if Britain is run by lab assistants.    It may well be that the lab assistants who ran this equipment were incompetent, or even that they convered up their error, but it’s misleading to say that lab assistants are the "they" in question. jon. jon What a bloody cop out.  Ever hear of the expression the buck stops here.  The Crown prosecutors, the police and other agencies involved in the cover up including the not so high and mighty Lords of the Crown are as culpable and guilty as the lab assistant.

Hold it.   What cover up?    Do you have evidence at all that when the State reported the recent problems with centrifuge contamination, a cover-up was in progress? Please produce your evidence or stop making accusations. jon.

Response:

: You are being very confused here, either deliberately or in error. Sorry, Jon.  I’ll try to outline it so you can understand. As I stated in my previous post, it’s not the lab techs, but those who administer the lab who need to answer to this.  Sevenoaks is a government run forensics lab.  As such, those who run the lab are government officials, not technicians.  Any forensics lab would have a QC program in which known standards and blanks should have been run on the contaminated centrifuge equipment, but it doesn’t stop there.  The lab would also have a quality assurance (QA) program in place as well- [etc, etc...]

It is very kind of you to explain it so that someone as stupid as I can understand it, but you seem to have forgotten one thing. I asked for evidence, and all I get is supposition.  Your reasoning could apply equally to any such mishap.   You could reason this way and conclude that someone "high up" must have concealed the bug that brought down the Ariane-5 the other day. After all, they have careful and independent testing, too, and they were proclaiming high reliability as well.   And yet:                     ***   BOOM   *** Where is your evidence?    You know, evidence is what we are talking about. jon.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : What would you recommend?   Keeping the results of the new test secret? That’s precisely what they seem to have done- sat on the information until they could no longer get away with it.  Either because someone in the lab or higher up in the chain of command threatened to go public on their own about it. There has been plenty of opportunity to identify a contamination problem. At best the Crown prosecuters are criminally negligent.  At worse they covered up and ignored evidence indicating that the equipment at Sevenoaks was contaminated. I work in a lab at a nuclear power plant.  *Any* analysis that we do is done in conjunction with quality control checks.  These checks are mostly done on a daily basis.  We run them under the assumption that errors in our analyses will have serious implications on the plant’s capacity to run or on public safety.

You are being very confused here, either deliberately or in error. The posting I replied to talked about the "authorities" and I really doubt if Britain is run by lab assistants.    It may well be that the lab assistants who ran this equipment were incompetent, or even that they convered up their error, but it’s misleading to say that lab assistants are the "they" in question. jon.

Response:

: What would you recommend?   Keeping the results of the new test secret? That’s precisely what they seem to have done- sat on the information until they could no longer get away with it.  Either because someone in the lab or higher up in the chain of command threatened to go public on their own about it. There has been plenty of opportunity to identify a contamination problem. At best the Crown prosecuters are criminally negligent.  At worse they covered up and ignored evidence indicating that the equipment at Sevenoaks was contaminated. I work in a lab at a nuclear power plant.  *Any* analysis that we do is done in conjunction with quality control checks.  These checks are mostly done on a daily basis.  We run them under the assumption that errors in our analyses will have serious implications on the plant’s capacity to run or on public safety. I must ask you, don’t the people who administer the forensics lab at Sevenoaks even acknowledge that the analyses they do have serious consequences one, to the public safety and two, to the lives of those who have been wrongly convicted and implicated?  Don’t you think running an occasional QC or a blank on the contaminated equipment might have been in order? It’s very suspicious to me that in seven years there was never a blank run on the carrier in the centrifuge that was contaminated. Lynette

Response:

Why are you sending this bollocks to a newsgroup that is populated by people quite able to read Newspapers for themselves. It is not at all in keeping with the character of the group. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Via NY Transfer News Collective * All the News that Doesn’t Fit INTELLIGENCE                                     ISSN 1245-2122 N. 38 New Series, 27 May 1996 Publishing since 1980 Editor Olivier Schmidt web http://www.blythe.org/Intelligence tel/fax 33 1 40 51 85 19; post ADI, 16 rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris, France) British, Irish "Justice" Systems — Embarrassing Lapses Intelligence, N. 38, 27 May 1996, p. 3 ANOTHER BRITISH FORENSIC TECHNOLOGY ERROR FAVORS IRA British forensic technology is among the best in the world but seems to be applied in such a manner as to discredit authorities engaged in the fight against the IRA The famous Birmingham Six were released after a new forensic technique showed that police officers had rewritten their original notes to produce evidence for conviction.  On 14 May, Home Secretary, Michael Howard, in reply to a written question in the House of Commons, recognized that the centrifuge, used to analyze the chemical composition of minute samples taken from suspects’ skin, hair, clothes, furniture and living quarters, was contaminated with 30 micrograms of RDX, one of the main chemical components of the plastic explosive Semtex. The ultra-centrifuge belongs to the Ministry of Defence’s Forensic Explosives Laboratory at Fort Halstead in Kent and had been used for seven years without being verified, despite routine weekly contamination checks of the laboratory room.  Only two months ago a rubber pad was apparently replaced after an accident and, during the resulting test, the machine was found to be contaminated.  The ultra-centrifuge has been used in 500 court cases since 1989 and heavy reliance on its results could put into question a dozen sentences involving 38 persons. Sinn Fein has advised all IRA prisoners indicted in Britain on explosive charges to appeal their convictions.  It is now believed the centrifuge was contaminated before it arrived in the Fort Halstead laboratory.  After the accidental spill of a strong, clean solvent from a test tube on the rubber pad at the bottom of the test-tube holder in the centrifuge, tests were run and found that the rubber pad contained traces of RDX, perhaps since its delivery to Fort Halstead.                                 * Intelligence, N. 38, 27 May 1996, p. 39 IRELAND – Extradition Embarrassment.  Business in the Irish Parliament — the Dail — was suspended twice on 22 May after Prime Minister, John Bruton, confirmed that a mistake in Dublin, not London, led to failure to extradite IRA suspect, Anthony Duncan, to Britain last month (INT, N. 36/16).  It has now emerged that the original extradition warrant, sent to Dublin by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), was mistakenly shredded while photocopies were being made for the Garda.  Mr. Bruton offered no explanation as to how this happened (presumably at the Department of Justice) or who authorized a misleading statement claiming the extradition request was rejected because the CPS failed to verify a signature on one of the British documents.  The Irish police now want London to send original extradition documentation on colored paper to distinguish it from photocopies.  According to a Garda spokesperson, it’s very hard "to make out the difference between an original and a good photocopy".  In Northern Ireland, the Democratic Unionist leader, Dr. Ian Paisley, never one to miss an opportunity under such circumstances, said Dublin should offer a public apology to the CPS.                                      * CHOICE BITS: Intelligence, N. 38, 27 May 1996, p. 7 RECONVERSION – Military to Civilian Simulation.  The British Defence Research Agency Fort Halstead branch, the Centre for Defence Analysis, developed the Close Action Environment (CAEN) to simulate, by computer, urban war zones complete with trees, hedges, roads, fences and buildings. The Centre subsequently "reconverted" CAEN for the Surrey Police in Guildford for use in training police officers in handling angry crowds (INT, N. 22/7).  This "reconversion" was considered a great success, and perhaps the U.S. Army learned from that when it decided to convert military simulation technology to civilian use.   On 23 August 1995, the Army’s Project Plowshares simulation system "ran" a Category 3 hurricane over Orlando, Florida, to help civilian rescuers improve their disaster response.  During the simulation, the fire department "forgot" to tell the sheriff’s office that a chlorine gas railroad tanker had derailed and leaked.  The leak "disabled the police station", or more likely wiped it out.  The authorities have supposedly learned from the exercise.                                 * Intelligence, N. 38, 27 May 1996, p. 38 GREAT BRITAIN: REANALYZING CRIMINAL HISTORY The biggest murder hunt in British legal history began on 20 May when police reopened the files on the deaths and disappearances of up to 220 women.  The police believe some of the murders — solved and unsolved — could be the work of five serial killers who have gone undetected since 1985.   The hunt, codenamed Enigma, will be carried out by an "elite team of homicide detectives" headed by the Assistant Chief Constable of Essex, Jim Dickenson, and was proposed following the investigation into the killing of French student, Celine Figard, last December.  It will be conducted along the guidelines, laid down in a confidential handbook recently issued by the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) to senior Criminal Investigation Division (CID) officers in England and Wales, and will involve the National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS) and the recently-established Crime Faculty, which can provide "offender profiling" (INT, N. 35/4). [NOTE: Since the investigation of Figard's disappearance has included the British-occupied north of Ireland, "Enigma" would make a great cover for all manner of enhanced electronic information-gathering and covert operations there. -- NY Transfer]                                 * Intelligence, N. 38, 27 May 1996, p. 37 LIMPING HOME FROM THE WAR GAMES The Labour Party is to question the Defence Secretary, Michael Portillo, and is seeking an inquiry into the American Port Authority decision to impound a 20,000-ton Ukrainian roll-on, roll-off ferry, the "Kapitan Mezentsev", chartered by the British Ministry of Defence (MoD) to carry supplies for British forces taking part in NATO’s Purple Star exercise, the largest joint U.S./British operation since the D-Day Normandy landing in 1944.  The Americans declared the Ukrainian vessel unsafe after five major faults were found on inspection, including dilapidated fire-fighting equipment, cracks in fiberglass lifeboat hulls and inoperable watertight doors. The MoD confirmed that the ship had been hired for "a short term charter" but claimed it had been surveyed for the Royal Navy by a marine supervisor who found all the certificates and documentation in order "and no serious defects".  Dr. David Clark, shadow defence spokesman, has suggested the MoD explanation is "untrue" — that is, a lie — since for a ship to be impounded "it has to be basically unseaworthy".  He also argued that Britain’s defense budget had been cut to such an extent that the MoD has to go "to the bottom of the market" to charter vessels which put the lives of servicemen at risk. Some Tory backbenchers have also questioned the number of casualties suffered by British forces during Purple Star, in particular the 16 May night jump over Fort Bragg, North Carolina.  Hyped by military strategists as the biggest Allied air drop since operation Market Garden over the Netherlands during World War II, the exercise injured 41 British paratroopers as compared to 38 U.S. casualties.  Although this was fewer than the four percent casualties the planners had expected, the Tories are annoyed by reports that the landing ground for the U.S. Airborne was "flat terrain" while the British Paras were allocated an "uneven, shrub-covered area". A total of 38,200 U.S. and 15,600 British servicemen took part in Purple Star which ended on 19 May.  The U.S. Air Force provided 171 aircraft and the RAF 56, the U.S. Navy 26 ships and the Royal Navy 27, including "HMS Fearless".  The latter is the Royal Navy’s only control and communications command ship for amphibious operations, and managed to pass inspection after reports that NATO’s war games could be cancelled when workers discovered that large parts of the ship’s bulkhead had been eaten away by rust (INT, N. 30/43).                                 * Copyright ADI 1996, reproduction in any form forbidden without explicit authorization from the ADI. A one year subscription (23 issues) is US $315. or point your browser to: http://www.blythe.org/Intelligence/ Also in this Issue: N. 38 New Series, 27 May 1996 FRONTPAGE BELGIUM – LOG OF AN INTELLIGENCE OVERSIGHT SHIPWRECK p.1 TECHNOLOGY & TECHNIQUES NEW TECHNIQUES ON BOTH SIDES OF DRUG BATTLE p.2 ANOTHER BRITISH FORENSIC TECHNOLOGY ERROR FAVORS IRA p.3 BOSNIA BECOMES INTELLIGENCE HIGH-TECH BAZAAR p.4 CURRENCY – Magnetic "Bar-Code" on New $100 Bills. p.5 IMAGERY – CIA "Dumps" Declassified Photos at USGS. p.6 RECONVERSION – Military to Civilian Simulation. p.7 GYPSIES – Open

… read more »

Response:

British forensic technology is among the best in the world but seems to be applied in such a manner as to discredit authorities engaged in the fight against the IRA The famous Birmingham Six were released after a new forensic technique showed that police officers had rewritten their original notes to produce evidence for conviction.

Pardon me?  The state correctly reporting that a new forensic test reveals that police falsified evidence discredits the *authorities*? What would you recommend?   Keeping the results of the new test secret? On 14 May, Home Secretary, Michael Howard, in reply to a written question in the House of Commons, recognized that the centrifuge, used to analyze the chemical composition of minute samples taken from suspects’ skin, hair, clothes, furniture and living quarters, was contaminated with 30 micrograms of RDX, one of the main chemical components of the plastic explosive Semtex.

And he reported it entirely properly, since it casts doubts on previous results obtained with this particular set of equipment. It does not discredit the aurthorities who reported these new results.   It would be if they did *not* report it that they would be discredited.  It might be a secret that they were discredited, but they would still be discredited. There seems to be a superstition among the US Left the reporting a problem that makes a conviction unsafe discredits the justice system that reports it.  It does not. The justice systems to be wary of are those which never report such unsafe convictions. jon.

Response:

Via NY Transfer News Collective * All the News that Doesn’t Fit INTELLIGENCE                                     ISSN 1245-2122 N. 38 New Series, 27 May 1996 Publishing since 1980 Editor Olivier Schmidt web http://www.blythe.org/Intelligence tel/fax 33 1 40 51 85 19; post ADI, 16 rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris, France) British, Irish "Justice" Systems — Embarrassing Lapses Intelligence, N. 38, 27 May 1996, p. 3 ANOTHER BRITISH FORENSIC TECHNOLOGY ERROR FAVORS IRA British forensic technology is among the best in the world but seems to be applied in such a manner as to discredit authorities engaged in the fight against the IRA The famous Birmingham Six were released after a new forensic technique showed that police officers had rewritten their original notes to produce evidence for conviction.  On 14 May, Home Secretary, Michael Howard, in reply to a written question in the House of Commons, recognized that the centrifuge, used to analyze the chemical composition of minute samples taken from suspects’ skin, hair, clothes, furniture and living quarters, was contaminated with 30 micrograms of RDX, one of the main chemical components of the plastic explosive Semtex. The ultra-centrifuge belongs to the Ministry of Defence’s Forensic Explosives Laboratory at Fort Halstead in Kent and had been used for seven years without being verified, despite routine weekly contamination checks of the laboratory room.  Only two months ago a rubber pad was apparently replaced after an accident and, during the resulting test, the machine was found to be contaminated.  The ultra-centrifuge has been used in 500 court cases since 1989 and heavy reliance on its results could put into question a dozen sentences involving 38 persons. Sinn Fein has advised all IRA prisoners indicted in Britain on explosive charges to appeal their convictions.  It is now believed the centrifuge was contaminated before it arrived in the Fort Halstead laboratory.  After the accidental spill of a strong, clean solvent from a test tube on the rubber pad at the bottom of the test-tube holder in the centrifuge, tests were run and found that the rubber pad contained traces of RDX, perhaps since its delivery to Fort Halstead.                                 * Intelligence, N. 38, 27 May 1996, p. 39 IRELAND – Extradition Embarrassment.  Business in the Irish Parliament — the Dail — was suspended twice on 22 May after Prime Minister, John Bruton, confirmed that a mistake in Dublin, not London, led to failure to extradite IRA suspect, Anthony Duncan, to Britain last month (INT, N. 36/16).  It has now emerged that the original extradition warrant, sent to Dublin by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), was mistakenly shredded while photocopies were being made for the Garda.  Mr. Bruton offered no explanation as to how this happened (presumably at the Department of Justice) or who authorized a misleading statement claiming the extradition request was rejected because the CPS failed to verify a signature on one of the British documents.  The Irish police now want London to send original extradition documentation on colored paper to distinguish it from photocopies.  According to a Garda spokesperson, it’s very hard "to make out the difference between an original and a good photocopy".  In Northern Ireland, the Democratic Unionist leader, Dr. Ian Paisley, never one to miss an opportunity under such circumstances, said Dublin should offer a public apology to the CPS.                                      * CHOICE BITS: Intelligence, N. 38, 27 May 1996, p. 7 RECONVERSION – Military to Civilian Simulation.  The British Defence Research Agency Fort Halstead branch, the Centre for Defence Analysis, developed the Close Action Environment (CAEN) to simulate, by computer, urban war zones complete with trees, hedges, roads, fences and buildings. The Centre subsequently "reconverted" CAEN for the Surrey Police in Guildford for use in training police officers in handling angry crowds (INT, N. 22/7).  This "reconversion" was considered a great success, and perhaps the U.S. Army learned from that when it decided to convert military simulation technology to civilian use.   On 23 August 1995, the Army’s Project Plowshares simulation system "ran" a Category 3 hurricane over Orlando, Florida, to help civilian rescuers improve their disaster response.  During the simulation, the fire department "forgot" to tell the sheriff’s office that a chlorine gas railroad tanker had derailed and leaked.  The leak "disabled the police station", or more likely wiped it out.  The authorities have supposedly learned from the exercise.                                 * Intelligence, N. 38, 27 May 1996, p. 38 GREAT BRITAIN: REANALYZING CRIMINAL HISTORY The biggest murder hunt in British legal history began on 20 May when police reopened the files on the deaths and disappearances of up to 220 women.  The police believe some of the murders — solved and unsolved — could be the work of five serial killers who have gone undetected since 1985.   The hunt, codenamed Enigma, will be carried out by an "elite team of homicide detectives" headed by the Assistant Chief Constable of Essex, Jim Dickenson, and was proposed following the investigation into the killing of French student, Celine Figard, last December.  It will be conducted along the guidelines, laid down in a confidential handbook recently issued by the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) to senior Criminal Investigation Division (CID) officers in England and Wales, and will involve the National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS) and the recently-established Crime Faculty, which can provide "offender profiling" (INT, N. 35/4). [NOTE: Since the investigation of Figard's disappearance has included the British-occupied north of Ireland, "Enigma" would make a great cover for all manner of enhanced electronic information-gathering and covert operations there. -- NY Transfer]                                 * Intelligence, N. 38, 27 May 1996, p. 37 LIMPING HOME FROM THE WAR GAMES The Labour Party is to question the Defence Secretary, Michael Portillo, and is seeking an inquiry into the American Port Authority decision to impound a 20,000-ton Ukrainian roll-on, roll-off ferry, the "Kapitan Mezentsev", chartered by the British Ministry of Defence (MoD) to carry supplies for British forces taking part in NATO’s Purple Star exercise, the largest joint U.S./British operation since the D-Day Normandy landing in 1944.  The Americans declared the Ukrainian vessel unsafe after five major faults were found on inspection, including dilapidated fire-fighting equipment, cracks in fiberglass lifeboat hulls and inoperable watertight doors. The MoD confirmed that the ship had been hired for "a short term charter" but claimed it had been surveyed for the Royal Navy by a marine supervisor who found all the certificates and documentation in order "and no serious defects".  Dr. David Clark, shadow defence spokesman, has suggested the MoD explanation is "untrue" — that is, a lie — since for a ship to be impounded "it has to be basically unseaworthy".  He also argued that Britain’s defense budget had been cut to such an extent that the MoD has to go "to the bottom of the market" to charter vessels which put the lives of servicemen at risk. Some Tory backbenchers have also questioned the number of casualties suffered by British forces during Purple Star, in particular the 16 May night jump over Fort Bragg, North Carolina.  Hyped by military strategists as the biggest Allied air drop since operation Market Garden over the Netherlands during World War II, the exercise injured 41 British paratroopers as compared to 38 U.S. casualties.  Although this was fewer than the four percent casualties the planners had expected, the Tories are annoyed by reports that the landing ground for the U.S. Airborne was "flat terrain" while the British Paras were allocated an "uneven, shrub-covered area". A total of 38,200 U.S. and 15,600 British servicemen took part in Purple Star which ended on 19 May.  The U.S. Air Force provided 171 aircraft and the RAF 56, the U.S. Navy 26 ships and the Royal Navy 27, including "HMS Fearless".  The latter is the Royal Navy’s only control and communications command ship for amphibious operations, and managed to pass inspection after reports that NATO’s war games could be cancelled when workers discovered that large parts of the ship’s bulkhead had been eaten away by rust (INT, N. 30/43).                                 * Copyright ADI 1996, reproduction in any form forbidden without explicit authorization from the ADI. A one year subscription (23 issues) is US $315. or point your browser to: http://www.blythe.org/Intelligence/ Also in this Issue: N. 38 New Series, 27 May 1996 FRONTPAGE BELGIUM – LOG OF AN INTELLIGENCE OVERSIGHT SHIPWRECK p.1 TECHNOLOGY & TECHNIQUES NEW TECHNIQUES ON BOTH SIDES OF DRUG BATTLE p.2 ANOTHER BRITISH FORENSIC TECHNOLOGY ERROR FAVORS IRA p.3 BOSNIA BECOMES INTELLIGENCE HIGH-TECH BAZAAR p.4 CURRENCY – Magnetic "Bar-Code" on New $100 Bills. p.5 IMAGERY – CIA "Dumps" Declassified Photos at USGS. p.6 RECONVERSION – Military to Civilian Simulation. p.7 GYPSIES – Open Source Law Enforcement Study. p.8 RADAR – U.S. Navy Gets Its Own SAR. p.9 COMPUTER CRIME – Another "Honest" Survey. p.10 STEALTH – "Baby Beluga" Takes a Curtain Call. p.11 INTERNET – Java Just a Little Too Hot. p.12 COMPUTERS – A 50th Birthday for "Baby". p.13 PEOPLE MELVIN A. GOODMAN – U.S.A. p.14 NICOLAS BLAZIANU – FRANCE/SWITZERLAND p.15 LEON GIET – BELGIUM p.16 HASSAN SALAMEH – PALESTINE p.17 U.S.A. – Intelligence Internships. p.18 CANADA/SRI LANKA – Kumaravelu Vignarajah. p.19 GREAT BRITAIN – "Mr. X". p.20 NORTHERN IRELAND – Dessie Mccleary. p.21 FRANCE – Philippe Rondot. p.22 ESTONIA/RUSSIA – Sergei Andreev. p.23 BULGARIA – … read more »

Response: