Question:

More than enough information for a change of government (removal of organized-crime ruling elites)  follows. Iraq weapons and terrorism ties all part of a big lie launched by neo-consand Rockefeller asset Powell within hours of 911  – Writing in the Daily Mirror, John Pilger reveals that both US Secretary of  State Colin Powell and Bush’s closest adviser Condaleeza Rice said, in 2001,  that Saddam Hussein was effectively disarmed and no threat – putting the lie to their own propaganda.  – Pilger:   EXACTLY one year ago, Tony Blair told Parliament: "Saddam Hussein’s weapons  of mass destruction programme is active, detailed and growing.  "The policy of containment is not working. The weapons of mass destruction  programme is not shut down. It is up and running now." http://pilger.carlton.com/print  also www.mirror.co.uk Over 1,500 violent civilian deaths in occupied Baghdad — Compare what Jews Franks, Meyer, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz are doing in occupied Iraq with Hitler’s pathetic little Krystalhacht (in which no one was killed)  –  From April 14th to 31st August, 2,846 violent deaths were recorded by the Baghdad city morgue. When corrected for pre-war death rates in the city a total of at least 1,519 excess violent deaths in Baghdad emerges from reports based on the morgue’s records (adjusted for the comparable "background level" of deaths in Baghdad in recent pre-war harsh-sanctions times.) http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press.htm When Israel’s finance minister Binyamin Netanyahu was interviewed for the radio on the morning after the horrific terror attack on Caf

Question:

AIR there is a case where a perp put a head to a woman and forced her to run a police road block.  Someone was either seriously injured or killed.  The woman was prosecuted and convicted as if she had not been under duress.  AIR, duress is not a defense.  Need a lawyer or law student to clarify. Well, if that is the case, it is a travesty of justice.

More relevant to us as accountants is the trap we get ourselves into by promulgating excessive rules. The following says it as well as I can, and with a bit more commonly accepted authority. Essentially, the accounting profession has taken the route of attempting to improve judgment by increasing the uniformity of accounting standards. Miller argues that merely creating rules under the guise of self-regulation does not enhance professional judgment by individual accountants because it actually replaces judgment with a sense of uniformity, whether uniformity is justified or not. Worse, if an audit problem develops, the accountant is held responsible for his or her mistakes, but the profession is not. Since the civil and criminal courts do not hold the profession responsible for its construction of bad rules, there is a disconnect. The profession has a penchant for creating accounting and auditing rules, but these rules in fact reduce professional judgment. http://accounting.smartpros.com/x33867.xml In my opinion, "following rules" is essentially the same defense as "obeying orders" – and equally flawed. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Conventional "wisdom" often cites the 3 monkeys, "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil." And forgets that it recommends imitating: monkeys. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": [Hello to all my fans in domestic surveillance] Albanian Clinton NORAD

Response:

The acquitted WW2 Germans of middle and lower ranks pleaded that their choice in wartime was obedience or being court martialed and shot. Some of the ex-Yugoslavians currently on trial before the International War Crimes Tribunal in the Netherlands at the insistance of the US federal government (which itself has opted out of similar liability for US military personnel, but that’s another topic and another newsgroup), are pleading similarly. For us accountants the choices are generally and fortunately much less dramatic, e. g. losing mandates or a job at the worst or being sidelined and not promoted and/or subject to internal mobbing as lesser punishments for not following the gang. Do you think our two "heros" would appreciate receiving a medal of honour from alt.accounting and who would be the panel? IMHO professional organisations who are supposed to represent us generally do far too little to actively promote basic ethical behaviour, reward and support those who provide positive examples, and on the other hand expel or otherwise punish members objectively found guilty of unethical professional conduct. Aside from non-existent or at best inadequate monitoring. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Saddam Hussein Clinton [Hello to all my fans in domestic surveillance]

Response:

Do you think our two "heros" would appreciate receiving a medal of honour from alt.accounting and who would be the panel?

Of course they would–  I was thinking of a small statues, similar to an oscar with the figure wearing a green eye shade with two other figures on the base wearing blindfolds…and all posters would be on the panel.  Think of the headlines!  (Just in case the emoticon didn’t register  ;-) …not completely serious.) IMHO professional organisations who are supposed to represent us generally do far too little to actively promote basic ethical behaviour, reward and support those who provide positive examples, and on the other hand expel or otherwise punish members objectively found guilty of unethical professional conduct. Aside from non-existent or at best inadequate monitoring. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA

Agree! Tippy

Response:

AIR there is a case where a perp put a head to a woman and forced her to run a police road block.  Someone was either seriously injured or killed.  The woman was prosecuted and convicted as if she had not been under duress.  AIR, duress is not a defense.  Need a lawyer or law student to clarify.

Well, if that is the case, it is a travesty of justice. Chris

Response:

Patricia Hearst might be an example, sympathy but convicted!

The Patty Hearst example goes way beyond the ‘forced to do something at gunpoint’ example.  She eventually began to work willingly alongside her abductors. — Todd Stephens

Response:

Do you think our two "heros" would appreciate receiving a medal of honour from alt.accounting and who would be the panel? IMHO professional organisations who are supposed to represent us generally do far too little to actively promote basic ethical behaviour, reward and support those who provide positive examples, and on the other hand expel or otherwise punish members objectively found guilty of unethical professional conduct. Aside from non-existent or at best inadequate monitoring.

This ‘negative reinforcement’ is not exclusive to professional organizations.  It is everywhere, in fact.  "They don’t tell you when you’re doing it right; they tell you when you’re doing it wrong." — Todd Stephens

Response:

I lost the reference, but several have looked into that question, ‘why did they not refuse to question an unlawful order?"  AIR, a very small number of German soldiers did refuse the order as illegal and, were not punished.  The explanation had to do with the adherence to the letter of the German legal system even while an illegal act was being committed. The issue is very complex, but if you read the historical explanation of what actually happened in Germany during the Hitler Administration a person can work their way through it. The acquitted WW2 Germans of middle and lower ranks pleaded that their choice in wartime was obedience or being court martialed and shot.

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

While I’ve known Todd has interesting tastes, I didn’t know he liked corporations.  Personally I prefer peach icecream.

You wouldn’t be a Georgia transplant, would you? — Todd Stephens

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the Nuremberg trials established that following orders is not a defense.  Although you have on one hand the German courts (de-Nazification process?) holding that following orders is a defense, on the other you have the international standard that it is not a defense.  In the U.S., it is not a valid defense.  You can be convicted for committing a felony under duress, that is with a gun pointed to your head. Actually, in that particular instance I don’t think you can be convicted of a felony.  If your only choice is to commit a crime or die, then the rational person commits a crime. I expect that what happens here is that they "reserve the right to convict of a felony." The gun-to-the-head isn’t a "get out of jail free" card, but I’d expect a jury is likely to weigh it pretty highly. Consider two extreme points:  a) Bank staff forced to open safe at gunpoint, thereby committing     a felony.     Is a jury likely to convict the staff on this?  I think not…  b) White supremacist who has been out at rallies, burned crosses,     bashed gays, and such, who gets "forced" at gunpoint to kill     someone.     Even if they are convinced that the "higher up" with the gun was     serious about killing him if he didn’t do the crime, a jury may be     rather more dubious about his "innocence" in the matter. Those are extremes; they display that there is some shading of gray in the matter. If the head of the KKK pulls out a gun and threatens to kill anyone who doesn’t go along with his plans of murder and mayhem, that ought _not_ be enough to get everyone else off scot-free… —

Patricia Hearst might be an example, sympathy but convicted! Tippy

Response:

Assuming the report is factually correct, are we really entering an epoch when people just observing basic norms of ethical behavior are becoming so rare that they unwillingly attain hero status? IMHO, you are probably correct in your observation.  I think on the broad historical perspective, ethics tends to cycle and were approaching a low.  I notice that, in a almost literal sense, Christians are being thrown to the lions.

Perhaps we should recognize people when they do the right thing – hero or not.  Otherwise, it’s only the bad situations that come to our attention.  By doing so (recognizing the practice of "normal" ethical behavior, others are encouraged to do the same.   Please nominate candidates for this newsgroup’s review for the first annual alt.accounting award for ethical behavior.  ;-) Tippy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You wouldn’t be a Georgia transplant, would you? North Carolina When I was a kid we (the family) would drive to Georgia to buy peaches for canning.  Those were good times. Fresh California Elberta Peaches with cream. Then the Santa Rosa Plumbs, but, they have unfortunately become heritage and I haven’t seen them for decades.  The Improved Santa Rosa tastes like flavored cardboard.

My dad’s old green Mercury got us to Georgia and back with a load of peaches in one day, with enough day left for some peeling. It would have taken two weeks for us to have gone to California for Elbertas. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Fresh California Elberta Peaches with cream. Then the Santa Rosa Plumbs, but, they have unfortunately become heritage and I haven’t seen them for decades.  The Improved Santa Rosa tastes like flavored cardboard. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I’ve known Todd has interesting tastes, I didn’t know he liked corporations.  Personally I prefer peach icecream. You wouldn’t be a Georgia transplant, would you? North Carolina When I was a kid we (the family) would drive to Georgia to buy peaches for canning.  Those were good times. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

AIR there is a case where a perp put a head to a woman and forced her to run a police road block.  Someone was either seriously injured or killed.  The woman was prosecuted and convicted as if she had not been under duress.  AIR, duress is not a defense.  Need a lawyer or law student to clarify. I don’t believe anyone involved is making or intends to make a duress defense on the Anderson case.  I don’t think it is logically possible to construct one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the Nuremberg trials established that following orders is not a defense.  Although you have on one hand the German courts (de-Nazification process?) holding that following orders is a defense, on the other you have the international standard that it is not a defense.  In the U.S., it is not a valid defense.  You can be convicted for committing a felony under duress, that is with a gun pointed to your head. Actually, in that particular instance I don’t think you can be convicted of a felony.  If your only choice is to commit a crime or die, then the rational person commits a crime. — Todd Stephens

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

I think the Nuremberg trials established that following orders is not a defense.  Although you have on one hand the German courts (de-Nazification process?) holding that following orders is a defense, on the other you have the international standard that it is not a defense.  In the U.S., it is not a valid defense.  You can be convicted for committing a felony under duress, that is with a gun pointed to your head. Actually, in that particular instance I don’t think you can be convicted of a felony.  If your only choice is to commit a crime or die, then the rational person commits a crime.

I expect that what happens here is that they "reserve the right to convict of a felony." The gun-to-the-head isn’t a "get out of jail free" card, but I’d expect a jury is likely to weigh it pretty highly. Consider two extreme points:  a) Bank staff forced to open safe at gunpoint, thereby committing     a felony.     Is a jury likely to convict the staff on this?  I think not…  b) White supremacist who has been out at rallies, burned crosses,     bashed gays, and such, who gets "forced" at gunpoint to kill     someone.     Even if they are convinced that the "higher up" with the gun was     serious about killing him if he didn’t do the crime, a jury may be     rather more dubious about his "innocence" in the matter. Those are extremes; they display that there is some shading of gray in the matter. If the head of the KKK pulls out a gun and threatens to kill anyone who doesn’t go along with his plans of murder and mayhem, that ought _not_ be enough to get everyone else off scot-free… — http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/unix.html "I’ve seen  a look in dogs’  eyes, a quickly vanishing  look of amazed contempt,  and I  am convinced  that basically  dogs think  humans are nuts."  – John Steinbeck

Response:

I think the Nuremberg trials established that following orders is not a defense.  Although you have on one hand the German courts (de-Nazification process?) holding that following orders is a defense, on the other you have the international standard that it is not a defense.  In the U.S., it is not a valid defense.  You can be convicted for committing a felony under duress, that is with a gun pointed to your head.

Actually, in that particular instance I don’t think you can be convicted of a felony.  If your only choice is to commit a crime or die, then the rational person commits a crime. — Todd Stephens

Response:

By JONATHAN WEIL Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL In building its criminal case against Arthur Andersen LLP, the Justice Department has sought evidence from at least two Andersen employees who refused to destroy documents related to Enron Corp., despite receiving instructions from colleagues to do so, according to a sworn statement by a government prosecutor filed in federal court here. Testimony from Andersen partner Timothy McCann and Andersen manager Shane Philpot, both of whom worked on Enron matters in Andersen’s Portland, Ore., office, could be pivotal for the government’s obstruction-of-justice case.

And who wants to bet there were at least one AA employee that kept their back-up of the back-up, or a few hard copies for a rainy day?  Lots to surface over the next few months or years. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

Response:

While I’ve known Todd has interesting tastes, I didn’t know he liked corporations.  Personally I prefer peach icecream. You wouldn’t be a Georgia transplant, would you?

North Carolina When I was a kid we (the family) would drive to Georgia to buy peaches for canning.  Those were good times. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

… Assuming the report is factually correct, are we really entering an epoch when people just observing basic norms of ethical behavior are becoming so rare that they unwillingly attain hero status?

IMHO, you are probably correct in your observation.  I think on the broad historical perspective, ethics tends to cycle and were approaching a low.  I notice that, in a almost literal sense, Christians are being thrown to the lions. Nevertheless, one must have considerable courage not to obey orders in such cases. We may recall that, except those in the highest ranks, Germans accused of WW2 crimes usually achieved acquittal based on "necessity to obey orders" (German: Befehlsnotstand).

I think the Nuremberg trials established that following orders is not a defense.  Although you have on one hand the German courts (de-Nazification process?) holding that following orders is a defense, on the other you have the international standard that it is not a defense.  In the U.S., it is not a valid defense.  You can be convicted for committing a felony under duress, that is with a gun pointed to your head.

Response:

Here in the NW, we eat corporations, … Microsoft being the eminent example of this, right?

While I’ve known Todd has interesting tastes, I didn’t know he liked corporations.  Personally I prefer peach icecream. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two Andersen Workers May Be Key To Justice Department Investigation U.S. Is Said to Have Rejected Company’s Offer To Renew Talks About a Possible Plea Bargain By JONATHAN WEIL Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL In building its criminal case against Arthur Andersen LLP, the Justice Department has sought evidence from at least two Andersen employees who refused to destroy documents related to Enron Corp., despite receiving instructions from colleagues to do so, according to a sworn statement by a government prosecutor filed in federal court here. Testimony from Andersen partner Timothy McCann and Andersen manager Shane Philpot, both of whom worked on Enron matters in Andersen’s Portland, Ore., office, could be pivotal for the government’s obstruction-of-justice case. <snip http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1019787249774614800,00.html?mod=sp… (subscription only)

Assuming the report is factually correct, are we really entering an epoch when people just observing basic norms of ethical behavior are becoming so rare that they unwillingly attain hero status? Nevertheless, one must have considerable courage not to obey orders in such cases. We may recall that, except those in the highest ranks, Germans accused of WW2 crimes usually achieved acquittal based on "necessity to obey orders" (German: Befehlsnotstand). A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": genetic smuggle Noriega class struggle Albanian cracking Delta Force PLO

Response:

But the difference in the NW is they actually behave according to their values for the most part. On the eastern seaboard or california, people seem to believe we are all powerless and should just fall in line, obey the authorities no matter how absurd, or how disloyal to our fellow citizens. Silly northwest. No wonder we have high unemployment! Corporations are leaving here in droves.  :-) In NY and apparently Texas, corporations eat people.   Here in the NW, we eat corporations,

… Microsoft being the eminent example of this, right? — http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/languages.html "If I  could find  a way to  get [Saddam  Hussein] out of  there, even putting a  contract out on him,  if the CIA  still did that sort  of a thing, assuming it ever did, I would be for it."  – Richard M. Nixon

Response:

Two Andersen Workers May Be Key To Justice Department Investigation U.S. Is Said to Have Rejected Company’s Offer To Renew Talks About a Possible Plea Bargain By JONATHAN WEIL Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL In building its criminal case against Arthur Andersen LLP, the Justice Department has sought evidence from at least two Andersen employees who refused to destroy documents related to Enron Corp., despite receiving instructions from colleagues to do so, according to a sworn statement by a government prosecutor filed in federal court here. Testimony from Andersen partner Timothy McCann and Andersen manager Shane Philpot, both of whom worked on Enron matters in Andersen’s Portland, Ore., office, could be pivotal for the government’s obstruction-of-justice case. <snip http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1019787249774614800,00.html?mod=sp… (subscription only) — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Testimony from Andersen partner Timothy McCann and Andersen manager Shane Philpot, both of whom worked on Enron matters in Andersen’s Portland, Ore., office, could be pivotal for the government’s obstruction-of-justice case.

There is a level of honesty and loyalty in the Pacific NW, and across most of the northern mountain and plains states. Of course there are good, great people everywhere. But the difference in the NW is they actually behave according to their values for the most part. On the eastern seaboard or california, people seem to believe we are all powerless and should just fall in line, obey the authorities no matter how absurd, or how disloyal to our fellow citizens. Silly northwest. No wonder we have high unemployment! Corporations are leaving here in droves.  :-) In NY and apparently Texas, corporations eat people.   Here in the NW, we eat corporations, Todd

Response:

I assume you are leaving M$ out of that generality. — Todd Stephens

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a level of honesty and loyalty in the Pacific NW, and across most of the northern mountain and plains states. Of course there are good, great people everywhere. But the difference in the NW is they actually behave according to their values for the most part. On the eastern seaboard or california, people seem to believe we are all powerless and should just fall in line, obey the authorities no matter how absurd, or how disloyal to our fellow citizens. Silly northwest. No wonder we have high unemployment! Corporations are leaving here in droves.  :-) In NY and apparently Texas, corporations eat people. Here in the NW, we eat corporations, Todd

Response:

Question:

who would ever want to invest in an environment that is so criminally difficult to just get a start underway?

WTF would want to invest in it, period?

Response:

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bloody hell. with the number of jobs involved and the flow on benefits for the country you think we could just try as a nation to make it a bit easier for the buggers. who would ever want to invest in an environment that is so criminally difficult to just get a start underway? Stealth Pilot

Stealth  with  respect. tesna has bought this upon themselves by using Truck methods  leaving the obvious to last minute and disgracefull lack of attention to detail  when such detail and to do lists were handed to them months ago. EG pro forma agreements and signing of LOI to take over buildings and leases.. Is not that hard to send out an MOU ( memorandum of understanding) saying we will do ABC if XYZ happens . But no left every thing to last minute. I assure you many in this country are trying to help even donating time and resources free allocating extra bodies etc to try and look after Fox lew and bloody mentha ( who has suddenly shown that accounting trait of selective memory and where my fees coming from) Actually I wish the crowd that got knocked out of the running would come back and bring TOLL logistics with them Cashed up to the eyeballs  pretty procedurally organised relativly HONEST and competent management team long on fact short on rhetoric and emotion. Stealth  this whole thing at times can reduce stone statues to weeping tears of frustration. And how soon have we forgotten that slimey Cushing political animal across the Tasmans  grubby little hands in this whole affair . Not to mention Brierfly  and his Singers mates . AVIATION LINKS . http://www.angelfire.com/ab3/caption/link.html http://cleaver.freeyellow.com/sad.html — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Oops Wirraway – now you’ve done it, mentioning Fflyers. You obviously missed "The Great Lip-Sewing" of last month by our resident Judge Bartels and his young sidekicks Sherriff breach and Deputy Fenn (with two ‘n’s) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tesna looks at second-hand planes By Steve Creedy, Aviation writer February 01, 2002 The spokesman would not comment on a leaked document that purported to outline the Fox-Lew Ansett frequent flyer program. It is understood the draft document outlines one of several proposals under consideration and may not reflect the final program when it is launched next week.

Response:

bloody hell. with the number of jobs involved and the flow on benefits for the country you think we could just try as a nation to make it a bit easier for the buggers.

We already did with the ticket levy to pay for the bludger’s ‘entitlements’ And basically told those two spivs and con men, Fox and Lew, to bugger off when they put their hands out for much more. who would ever want to invest in an environment that is so criminally difficult to just get a start underway?

Specially with the bone headed union bludgers involved, and those arsehole parasites like Combet involved etc. If it was my money, I’d be putting it with the slut’s operation  instead. Main downside is the pom involved. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tesna looks at second-hand planes By Steve Creedy, Aviation writer February 01, 2002 THE Fox-Lew Tesna syndicate is considering expanding its Ansett fleet with used aircraft rather than the new planes it had planned to lease from United Airlines. Industry sources believe the United planes are no longer coming and that Tesna is trying to obtain older aircraft from US investor Bill Franke’s former airline America West and failed Belgian carrier Sabena. Tesna confirmed yesterday it had looked at other aircraft but denied this meant the negotiations with United had failed. The news came as the Government’s guarantee for Ansett tickets ended last night. From today, Ansett passengers are not guaranteed any refund if the airline fails to operate flights. Ansett also faces paying refunds on business-class tickets already sold, because the new full-service airline has failed to meet its launch date, set for today. Aircraft leasing was one of several third-party issues that delayed the relaunch and prompted warnings from the administrators that the Tesna deal might fall through. Others included the transfer to Tesna of airport terminal leases, which produced a tense exchange with the Sydney Airports Corporation, and moves by information technology providers to charge hefty sign-up fees on new contracts issued to Tesna. The Brisbane Airport Corporation also revealed yesterday it is yet to sign a deal with Tesna. And Tesna still has to sign a deal with lessors of 16 existing Ansett A320s and additional aircraft it will use to expand its fleet to 29 planes. The syndicate confirmed yesterday it was looking beyond United for aircraft but said this was simply testing the market to ensure it was getting the best deal. "All we’ve done is explore the international market to test the commercial parameters," a spokesman said. "The idea that we’ve gone somewhere else and the United thing is gone isn’t true." The spokesman would not comment on a leaked document that purported to outline the Fox-Lew Ansett frequent flyer program. It is understood the draft document outlines one of several proposals under consideration and may not reflect the final program when it is launched next week. Under the draft, Ansett frequent flyers would lose 67 billion old points but retain their status and receive bonus points for travelling. Meanwhile, a Sydney Airport Corporation spokesman said no substantive progress had been made in resolving the standoff over the transfer to Tesna of the Ansett domestic terminal leases.

Response:

bloody hell. with the number of jobs involved and the flow on benefits for the country you think we could just try as a nation to make it a bit easier for the buggers. who would ever want to invest in an environment that is so criminally difficult to just get a start underway? Stealth Pilot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tesna looks at second-hand planes By Steve Creedy, Aviation writer February 01, 2002 THE Fox-Lew Tesna syndicate is considering expanding its Ansett fleet with used aircraft rather than the new planes it had planned to lease from United Airlines. Industry sources believe the United planes are no longer coming and that Tesna is trying to obtain older aircraft from US investor Bill Franke’s former airline America West and failed Belgian carrier Sabena. Tesna confirmed yesterday it had looked at other aircraft but denied this meant the negotiations with United had failed. The news came as the Government’s guarantee for Ansett tickets ended last night. From today, Ansett passengers are not guaranteed any refund if the airline fails to operate flights. Ansett also faces paying refunds on business-class tickets already sold, because the new full-service airline has failed to meet its launch date, set for today. Aircraft leasing was one of several third-party issues that delayed the relaunch and prompted warnings from the administrators that the Tesna deal might fall through. Others included the transfer to Tesna of airport terminal leases, which produced a tense exchange with the Sydney Airports Corporation, and moves by information technology providers to charge hefty sign-up fees on new contracts issued to Tesna. The Brisbane Airport Corporation also revealed yesterday it is yet to sign a deal with Tesna. And Tesna still has to sign a deal with lessors of 16 existing Ansett A320s and additional aircraft it will use to expand its fleet to 29 planes. The syndicate confirmed yesterday it was looking beyond United for aircraft but said this was simply testing the market to ensure it was getting the best deal. "All we’ve done is explore the international market to test the commercial parameters," a spokesman said. "The idea that we’ve gone somewhere else and the United thing is gone isn’t true." The spokesman would not comment on a leaked document that purported to outline the Fox-Lew Ansett frequent flyer program. It is understood the draft document outlines one of several proposals under consideration and may not reflect the final program when it is launched next week. Under the draft, Ansett frequent flyers would lose 67 billion old points but retain their status and receive bonus points for travelling. Meanwhile, a Sydney Airport Corporation spokesman said no substantive progress had been made in resolving the standoff over the transfer to Tesna of the Ansett domestic terminal leases.

Response:

Tesna looks at second-hand planes By Steve Creedy, Aviation writer February 01, 2002 THE Fox-Lew Tesna syndicate is considering expanding its Ansett fleet with used aircraft rather than the new planes it had planned to lease from United Airlines. Industry sources believe the United planes are no longer coming and that Tesna is trying to obtain older aircraft from US investor Bill Franke’s former airline America West and failed Belgian carrier Sabena. Tesna confirmed yesterday it had looked at other aircraft but denied this meant the negotiations with United had failed. The news came as the Government’s guarantee for Ansett tickets ended last night. From today, Ansett passengers are not guaranteed any refund if the airline fails to operate flights. Ansett also faces paying refunds on business-class tickets already sold, because the new full-service airline has failed to meet its launch date, set for today. Aircraft leasing was one of several third-party issues that delayed the relaunch and prompted warnings from the administrators that the Tesna deal might fall through. Others included the transfer to Tesna of airport terminal leases, which produced a tense exchange with the Sydney Airports Corporation, and moves by information technology providers to charge hefty sign-up fees on new contracts issued to Tesna. The Brisbane Airport Corporation also revealed yesterday it is yet to sign a deal with Tesna. And Tesna still has to sign a deal with lessors of 16 existing Ansett A320s and additional aircraft it will use to expand its fleet to 29 planes. The syndicate confirmed yesterday it was looking beyond United for aircraft but said this was simply testing the market to ensure it was getting the best deal. "All we’ve done is explore the international market to test the commercial parameters," a spokesman said. "The idea that we’ve gone somewhere else and the United thing is gone isn’t true." The spokesman would not comment on a leaked document that purported to outline the Fox-Lew Ansett frequent flyer program. It is understood the draft document outlines one of several proposals under consideration and may not reflect the final program when it is launched next week. Under the draft, Ansett frequent flyers would lose 67 billion old points but retain their status and receive bonus points for travelling. Meanwhile, a Sydney Airport Corporation spokesman said no substantive progress had been made in resolving the standoff over the transfer to Tesna of the Ansett domestic terminal leases.

Response:

Question:

easy2000 gave answer… And you both realise that this is x-posted, so there are people witnessing this who don’t care to discuss it? Well, the readers of alt.acting can kill the thread.

Awww, but they are such nice people.  I think. Actually, I’ve never met them, but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt. The ones in alt.activism ought to care.

I should hope so too.  I can only assume that is the group you are experiencing this from. The ones in alt.acme.exploding.newgroup probably don’t exist.

Yeah… you’re probably right. As for alt.accounting, Timo’s probably going nuts – unless he’s already killed the thread on his client.

I don’t know Timo, but I’ll say hi to him anyway. Hi Timo! Daemon

Response:

So you have your head in your ass.. big deal. We have plenty of those people in this NG already. They are called LIBERALS… You do realize that that many purveyors of pornography, and an even higher proportion of con artists offering a tax evasion scams, are vocal and financial supporters of the Republican Party?

Of course. Have you any idea how expensive it is to buy a Democrat these days? Vote Libertarian. — Phil tigersrule "at" earthlink "dot" net http://www.acmeforces.com <=== chronically incomplete He who is willing to sacrifice freedom in favor of security deserves neither.

Response:

And you both realise that this is x-posted, so there are people witnessing this who don’t care to discuss it? Daemon Well, the readers of alt.acting can kill the thread. The ones in alt.activism ought to care. The ones in alt.acme.exploding.newgroup probably don’t exist. As for alt.accounting, Timo’s probably going nuts – unless he’s already killed the thread on his client.

We exist. [waves to alt.accounting] — Phil tigersrule "at" earthlink "dot" net http://www.acmeforces.com <=== chronically incomplete He who is willing to sacrifice freedom in favor of security deserves neither.

Response:

In the naked alt.acme.exploding.newsgroup there was no escape from Phil the anti-spam RADIKUL EXTERMIST!’s scorching arguments. On Sat, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And you both realise that this is x-posted, so there are people witnessing this who don’t care to discuss it? Daemon Well, the readers of alt.acting can kill the thread. The ones in alt.activism ought to care. The ones in alt.acme.exploding.newgroup probably don’t exist. As for alt.accounting, Timo’s probably going nuts – unless he’s already killed the thread on his client. We exist.

Are you sure? [waves to alt.accounting]

HI ALT.ACCOUNTING! BeH

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In the naked alt.acme.exploding.newsgroup there was no escape from Phil the anti-spam RADIKUL EXTERMIST!’s scorching arguments. On Sat, And you both realise that this is x-posted, so there are people witnessing this who don’t care to discuss it? Daemon Well, the readers of alt.acting can kill the thread. The ones in alt.activism ought to care. The ones in alt.acme.exploding.newgroup probably don’t exist. As for alt.accounting, Timo’s probably going nuts – unless he’s already killed the thread on his client. We exist. Are you sure?

Yes. [waves to alt.accounting] HI ALT.ACCOUNTING!

I promise that I will uncrosspost any further posts I make to this thread. — Phil tigersrule "at" earthlink "dot" net http://www.acmeforces.com <=== chronically incomplete He who is willing to sacrifice freedom in favor of security deserves neither.

Response:

And you both realise that this is x-posted, so there are people witnessing this who don’t care to discuss it? Daemon

Well, the readers of alt.acting can kill the thread. The ones in alt.activism ought to care. The ones in alt.acme.exploding.newgroup probably don’t exist. As for alt.accounting, Timo’s probably going nuts – unless he’s already killed the thread on his client. easy2000

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So you have your head in your ass.. big deal. We have plenty of those people in this NG already. They are called LIBERALS… You do realize that that many purveyors of pornography, Let me guess… you’re an expert in this area…  :O) Actually, I was thinking about ISPs who sell space on their servers to the actual owner-operators of porn sites. Otherwise, I expect you’re expertise exceeds mine. So, Stan, why did you try to divert our attention from con artists offering a tax evasion scams?

Who is that? Facts, please…

Response:

easy2000 said… So you have your head in your ass.. big deal. We have plenty of those people in this NG already. They are called LIBERALS… You do realize that that many purveyors of pornography, and an even higher proportion of con artists offering a tax evasion scams, are vocal and financial supporters of the Republican Party?

And you both realise that this is x-posted, so there are people witnessing this who don’t care to discuss it? Daemon

Response:

So you have your head in your ass.. big deal. We have plenty of those people in this NG already. They are called LIBERALS… You do realize that that many purveyors of pornography,

Let me guess… you’re an expert in this area…  :O)

Response:

So you have your head in your ass.. big deal. We have plenty of those people in this NG already. They are called LIBERALS… You do realize that that many purveyors of pornography, Let me guess… you’re an expert in this area…  :O)

Actually, I was thinking about ISPs who sell space on their servers to the actual owner-operators of porn sites. Otherwise, I expect you’re expertise exceeds mine. So, Stan, why did you try to divert our attention from con artists offering a tax evasion scams? easy2000 BTW, was this: :O) some sort of offer on your part? If so, thanks but no thanks.

Response:

x-no-archive: yes This was the first time I had anything up my ass besides my fingers, and it felt so fucking good

So you have your head in your ass.. big deal. We have plenty of those people in this NG already. They are called LIBERALS…

Response:

So you have your head in your ass.. big deal. We have plenty of those people in this NG already. They are called LIBERALS…

You do realize that that many purveyors of pornography, and an even higher proportion of con artists offering a tax evasion scams, are vocal and financial supporters of the Republican Party?

Response:

Question:

Hey all, I have a quick question for you.  While starting a company, we have spent over a year creating software that we are about to put into production.  I want to record the software development as an Asset on my books.  My thoughts are to: Debit  Asset – Software Development Credit Equity – Additional Paid in Capital Does anyone have any additional ideas on how to record this transaction for services rendered by the founders?  Any online resources, my accounting books are outdated? Thanks in advance!

Response:

It would appear that this transaction would trigger a taxable event for the founders.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey all, I have a quick question for you.  While starting a company, we have spent over a year creating software that we are about to put into production.  I want to record the software development as an Asset on my books.  My thoughts are to: Debit  Asset – Software Development Credit Equity – Additional Paid in Capital Does anyone have any additional ideas on how to record this transaction for services rendered by the founders?  Any online resources, my accounting books are outdated? Thanks in advance!

Response:

Question:

See Interpretation of AU Section 508, Reports on Audited Financial Statements. This interpretation allows this change in wording. Generally done in reports on financial statements prepared in conformity with accounting principles established in the US that may be disseminated beyond US borders. Bill MacDonald

Response:

See Interpretation of AU Section 508, Reports on Audited Financial Statements. This interpretation allows this change in wording. Generally done in reports on financial statements prepared in conformity with accounting principles established in the US that may be disseminated beyond US borders. Bill MacDonald

Bill, Thanks for the reference, it gave me exactly what I needed when I did a search at www.aicpa.org on section 508. knid Before you buy.

Response:

Any guess as to why they would change this phrasology?  Does it mean something specific and different from GAAP?

The question really is, "What is GAAP?" and why should the GAAP doctrines and classifications from the NY establishment be required under pain of imprisonment by every small business CPA in the US? Over the years, we shared the accounting apparatus with other reporting dimensions such as departments, subsidiaries, etc. by compound account codes (segments in the chart of accounts)   Actually those codes belong as independent attributes in the transaction table.  Just as every line in a GL has one and only one account code, it should also have other codes. There are a number of important dimensions for classfication of transactions of a business, that are MORE IMPORTANT THAN GAAP, including  1. ACTIVITY: Business purpose or activity, e.g. deliverable product or service.     This goes to the core of business management: what are we doing, why are we     doing it, and did we make money or lose money on this exercise.  GAAP     has been clued into this for 30 years, i.e. segment reporting but IMO     GAAP doesn’t go nearly far enough, or nearly as far as businesses actually     go in the real world, with this type of reporting!     It is not always easy to achieve activity coding but in principle, codes     should identify each item in the revenue stream, and each related     expenditure. All accounting software supports this (department codes) but     they don’t usually get the relational aspect right, or define the activities     or business initiatives, in sufficient detail.  2. EMPLOYEE: Who was responsible for the revenue or the expenditure? It is more     important to the rational operation of a business to identify the manager     or at least, the business unit, associated with a business gains and     losses, than it is to identify the GAAP classification as current,     noncurrent, operating, etc.  3. CUST:  Which individual customer, and class of customer, is buying     our goods and services? This is so obvious it’s part of every accounting     system right down to the lowly Quickbooks ("Names") but GAAP doesn’t     seem to know or care. I could go on with more suggested dimensions but suffice it to say, CPAs and our GAAP classifications have gradually become relatively less important.  If anything, GAAP reporting is a "Problem" for business, for which software is implemented and people are hired, to solve.   ERP software companies and the data warehouse industry have taken up the real tasks of financial reporting, accountability, and post-measurement, and done such a good job that the GAAP financial statements almost flow out as an afterthought.  XBRL is really a final death knell for our "professional semantics".  ERP vendors will now be able to brand all the data (starting immediately with the high level aggregates) in the system, and print nearly perfect GAAP financials. They are asking AICPA, "OUT with it, man!  Tell us honestly, objectively: what are the rules of GAAP financial reporting, and let’s automate it and be done with it!! " Any accounting or ERP software that can adopt various different DTDs as its GAAP template will commoditize GAAP itself.  the software industry will implemnt any reasonably usable XML vocabulary for GAAP financial reporting pretty quickly.  For the next 5 years, these DTDs or schema will go thru versions and they might not even come from AICPA therefore, software companies need an ability to switch DTDs easily. One could argue the whole of GAAP constitutes nothing more than an ideology.  There’s no scientifically verifiable basis that suggests a breakdown between current and noncurrent assets, for example, or the dividing line of one year.  Even if you believe that every asset and liability has an intrinsic quality of "currentness", which is so important that it must be the law of the land, surely, you agree that it lies someplace along a continuum. Basically it is a numeric attribute, i.e. liquidates in 8 months or 15 months, not a binary Yes/No. How about Operating and non-operating income? Gains and Losses versus Income and expenses?  I argue that the whole of US GAAP is mostly arbitrary.  To define GAAP into multiple volumes of fine print, would be ridiculous, other than the sinister aspect that the business community is required by law to actually obey these rules. The whole exercise of articulating the rules of GAAP has been nothing more than a political and psychological exercise, in which the investor and owners’ brain was laid on the operating table, under the bright lights, and the terminology which triggered various synapses were mapped out, in relation to the beliefs and ideology of the investor’s brain at that time in history.  Investors legs twitched when they heard "1-Year", and CPAs thought that was important, so the CPAs recorded that into GAAP and made it mandatory under the law. Many CPAs are only recent converts to the notion that GAAP financial classfications are not the only (or even the most useful) classifications of business transactions!  Now we want to be members of management, offering pearls of strategic thinking wisdom.  Sheesh. Todd * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML accounting, web ledger, ASP, GL Dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

From a newbie, In a recent annual report, Arthur Anderson, LLP used the phrase "accounting principles generally accepted in the United States" rather than the standard phrase used in the past reports "generally accepted accounting principles". Any guess as to why they would change this phrasology?  Does it mean something specific and different from GAAP? Thanks, knid Before you buy.

Response:

From a newbie, In a recent annual report, Arthur Anderson, LLP used the phrase "accounting principles generally accepted in the United States" rather than the standard phrase used in the past reports "generally accepted accounting principles". Any guess as to why they would change this phrasology?  Does it mean something specific and different from GAAP?

Was it a non-US company?  Sometimes you have to convert a non-US company to US GAAP for the US stock exchange. If you don’t specify US GAAP the foriegn readers may not be aware.  This a guess off the top of my head. –sarah Houston, TX – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, knid Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From a newbie, In a recent annual report, Arthur Anderson, LLP used the phrase "accounting principles generally accepted in the United States" rather than the standard phrase used in the past reports "generally accepted accounting principles". Any guess as to why they would change this phrasology?  Does it mean something specific and different from GAAP? Was it a non-US company?  Sometimes you have to convert a non-US company to US GAAP for the US stock exchange. If you don’t specify US GAAP the foriegn readers may not be aware.  This a guess off the top of my head. –sarah Houston, TX Thanks, knid Before you buy.

Sarah, Thanks for your reply No, the comapny is incorporated in Delaware with headquarters also in the USA.  To meet your suggestion, I might put the phrase as "generally accepted accounting principles of the United States", so that it matches the old phrase (and acronymn) more closely while adding the desireable clarity. Rearranging the phrase as drastically as the report did, caused me ask more questions rather than clarify the point for me. Perhaps it is a bad assumption on my part to think that the exact phrase is important?  How common is it for a large accounting firms to casually modify this phrase?  It seems more like extra and useless work to me, unless there is some driving motivation. Thanks again, knid Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

That was the whole point of my post – the actual Ogam symbols themselves were of Irish origin, but the grouping of the consonants and vowels – even the names assigned to the letters – were the result of Latin (and also Greek) influence. The Celts did not live in a cultural vacuum – there was never a period of "pure" Celtic culture – they were constantly receiving outside influence, just as they exerted influence on others. They did not develop their own alphabet out of thin air – they adapted foreign alphabets to suit their needs. You just don’t see any writing in Ireland prior to the arrival of Romans in Britain – just as you don’t see writing in Gaul until contact with the Etruscans, Greeks, Iberians and Romans. Ogam is just an adapted Roman alphabet – perhaps applied to pre-existing tally-mark system – but nonetheless, of mixed origins.

(snippers) Interesting post. I am going under the assumption you’ve material to reference this to? Daibh — "D’aithle na bhfileadh n-uasal, truaghsan timheal an tsaoghail." [Now with all the High Bards gone, sad is the waning of the world.] (We are now set up for on-line herb orders at www.facetsconsulting.com/wrensnest, thanks for visiting.)

Response:

Of course, what I was saying in my previous message was that the concept of the Ogham greatly predates its use in writing (in much the same way that the sounds, mantras and words of the Vedas greatly predate the development of the Sanskrit written alphabet).  It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that spoken language and sounds predate the invention of written language.

Indeed it does not – and this non-rocket scientist never suggested that language predated writing – so I don’t know why you bothered posting this irrelevancy. I love it! The Greeks used the Beta tree for making Beta paper and funny party hats I suppose and they used the Alpha tree for structures. Let’s see…. yes please send me a cart load of Alpha trees for my next housing project. After all, it *is* the Acropolis don’t you know?

Quite amazing – someone claiming such erudition seems to be having a problem understanding basic English and its syntax. If you re-read my post you will notice that I did not once say that the Greek – or any other alphabet other than one specific variation of the Ogam – was based on names for trees. Don’t give up that day job for a carerr in comedy, BTW The Tau and the Tine connection is equally laughable since the "t" sound in Irish is actually a "tch" in the case of the Ogham.

You are a bright one, aren’t you? Did’t you know that archaic Irish (the language that was in existence during the time that Ogam was being used in Britain and Ireland) pronunciation was quite removed from modern pronunciation? You just blew any chance with me of seeming to know what you are talkling about. Do we see a pattern from all of these non-relationships yet? Almost every scholar I’ve read and studied admits that the names of the Ogham letters (not to mention their kennings) are Irish names for sounds native to the Irish language and that Ogham is *the* source for understanding the earliest forms of Irish.  It’s simple Ogham = Earliest Irish = Irish sounds.

Oh lord. Once again, read my posts again – I already said that the names for the Ogams were Irish – but that they were a play on words (actually a substitution of a native word for a foreign word). BTW – Ogam does not "equal" Archaic Irish (no more than the Roman alphabet "equals" Latin – otherwise, we would all be writing Latin). Archaic Irish was sometimes written using Ogam and even occasionally written using the Latin alphabet. Look in any book on Indo-European language and origins Such as _Celts and Aryans_ by Myles Dillon, In Search of thee Indo-Europeans_ by J.P. Mallory or _Archaeology & Language, The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins_ by Colin Renfrew to better understand that the languages of the Celts had much in common with those of the Greeks, Romans and other Europeans when one travels back into time.  Each of these books has tables showing the commonality of language, words and sounds among the Indo-Europeans.  After all, it *is* a language group.:-)

No sh#t, Sherlock. I happen to have been studying and writing about Celtic and Indo European History, Language, and Mythology for 15 years now. I suggest you do a little more reading yourself – and with a more open mind about cultural transactions in antiquity. Before you buy.

Response:

I apologize to those of you who may have already read this information before but feel that its presentation here and now will bring some clarity to those who are not familiar with the Ogham. Perhaps this post may also be informative to those who have already studied some of the literature about them. At any rate, I thought so additional information regarding Ogham would go a long way toward heading off some outdated thoughts about it. The Ogham came into being during the time of the Druids and they continued to be used by the Filidh up until almost the present day. The Ogham inscriptions that have survived in Ireland are dated to as early as the 4th century CE.  The mentions of Ogham usage in the insular literature date its use back to the beginnings of the Common Era (CE). As has been already been noted, the concepts associated with the Ogham and the reported use of the Ogham by the Draoith and Filidh far predate its use as a script on stones in Irish tradition and literature. There are many *theories* held by scholars about the beginnings of Ogham. Some scholars believed it to be related to the Runes (Graves and Arntz). Colin Renfrew places its creation to 4th century Ireland (_Archaeology & Language_). R.A.S. Macalister said that it was based on a Chalcidic variety of the Greek alphabet and a form of hand signaling dating to circa 500 BCE (_The Archaeology of Ireland_). Zimmer and O’Reilly tended to agree with his origins of Ogham in Gaul theory. Scholars such as Thurneyson, Vendryes, Menninger, Gerschel, and McManus suggest that the Ogham is a fusion of the tally stick concept and an ancient identifying-mnemonic system (McManus in _A Guide to Ogham_). This places the origins of Ogham and its concepts back possibly to 25,000 BCE (tally sticks) and/or to the time of its reported use by *Druids* in the tales (1000 BCE to about 600 CE). Druids were still being referenced in the Brehon laws until about the end of that period and Patrick and Columcille were said to have engaged in competitions with them IIRC. The Ogham was taught at the beginning of the education of Druids and Filidh as a way of memorizing lists of information and as keys to information contained in the tales and the epic poetry of the traditions (see Caulder in _Auraceipt na n-E/ces_ and Mac Cana in _The Learned Tales of Medieval Ireland_). The following points serve to indicate that Ogham is a native Irish tradition and that its written grammar is only influenced by the knowledge of its teachers regarding Latin: 1. The Ogham model the groupings of the vowels in Irish as "a ou ei" rather than the Latin "aeiou." 2. The letters p and f are left out of the original Ogham alphabet (the f in Ogham is actually a w or v sound and p suffers fron the P-Celtic – Q-Celtic split. 3. The entire sequence of the letters is different from that of Latin. 4. They grouped the consonants and the vowels separately in a manner that seems closer to the way that Sanskrit is represented than that of either Greek or Latin. 5. They retained original sounds and name/phrases for the letters rather than giving them short, simple phonetic names. The tree names are only one example of this. The Bri/artharogam are possibly the older more meaningful instances. 6. They associated the letter names and phonetic initial sounds in groups that bore relationship to one another. This is to be seen in the coupling of d and t, c and q, g and ng. 7. They also included letters that were compound letters (ng and sr). 8. The letter shapes and inscriptions look nothing like Latin or almost any other language (with the exception of tally marks). 9. The Ogham (excluding the diphthongs have possibly three different ways to express "u" sounds (f, h and u proper). It is because of these nine major points that scholars like McManus assign an Irish origin to both the Ogham and its form of inscription. Ogham is also documented in its use among the pre-Christian Filidh. O’Curry translated several passages about the use of "tabhall-lorg" or "taibhli filedh." These were considered by O’Curry to be collections of Ogham inscribed wooden staves that were bound together with leather thongs or satchels. There are instances where a Poet was asked to "sing a stave of poetry." Why should this be except that the composition was inscribed both literally and musically on a stave of wood? The later scholars of Ireland seemed to have continued this practice by carrying their books around as leaves of paper in leather satchels. These books were hung on pegs in their libraries when not in use (presumably to keep them dry and away from pests as much as possible). In his book, Ogam, the Poets’ Secret, Sean O’Boyle showed how the various Ogham from "The Scholar’s Primer" could have been used as tabulature for harp music among the Filidh. If this was so (and I definitely think it suits itself to the task of being a musical notation), then each poetical composition could have been remembered as a tune of sorts. Using music to aid memory is something that we do even today. When this potential for musical memory is coupled with the 150 different Ogham that the Filidh was required to learn in conjunction with the tales that they were also required to memorize, we see what I call the beginnings of "memory groves" of the mind. IMO these memory techniques are modeled after those of Cicero and Quintilian (pre-Christian Roman scholars and masters of rhetoric, as well as memory). They wrote early works on the use of memory lists and mnemonics as well as tying memories to places that were familiar too the subject. In addition to the use of structures and places, they also suggested the use of associated vivid images that impact the mind to reinforce the associated structured lists and mnemonics. Their skills and practices are documented in Frances Yates’ seminal work on the subject _The Art of Memory_. In the Renaissance, these techniques seem to have been rediscovered or reintroduced by first Giordanno Bruno (the priest who was eventually burned at the stake by the Inquisition) and later by Robert Fludd who is said to have used Shakespeare’s Globe Theater as a "memory theater." Some have said that the Ogham is not well suited for writing large volumes of information because it would be cumbersome to squeeze all the characters need onto a single stave of even within the "leaves" of a boo k. I tend to agree with this theory if we think that such works had to be spelled completely in all of the letters and sounds of each word. OTOH since the Ogham were lists of associated items linked through music and memory, I think that only the tunes and a few letters would have sufficed to "score" each stave to be sung and recited. A single letter could represent an entire phrase and a musical note (in the manner of briatharogam or phrase Ogam, examples of which we have from the Book of Ballymote). I’ve gone into these techniques and their details more fully in my book on _Ogham Divination, Recreating and Discovering the Ancient Wisdom of the Druids_. That’s the gist of the technique however. A Poet could have held a tabhal lorg in his hands and read the Ogham scores with the fingers (and without looking) while reciting a composition before an audience. Amergin’s "Mystery" could have been accomplished, recorded and scored musically with about fifteen Ogham on a single short stave of wood. The tale of "Baile and Ailinn" illustrates that such Ogham staves were used and stored in the treasure house of Tara during pre-Christian times. The reports of mass burnings of such staves by early Christians in bonfires seems to be echoed in the same sorts of burnings of tally sticks by Victorian bankers when those sticks finally ceased to be used in the 19th century IIRC. Up until then, accountants had recorded and preserved their accounts on such wooden ledgers and these were stored in much the same ways that Tabhal Lorg were thought to be stored. The use of wood and scores to preserve information has been happening in Europe for around 30,000 years in one form or another. Another use of wooden tablets for recording information is the wax covered wooden tablets that were used in Roman times and also in the Irish schools. Lessons and notes were inscribed in the wax with a stylus. When the notes were no longer required, the wax could be smoothed and the tablets reused (kind of an ancient Etch-a-Sketch). Still another use of wood to record information on wood was the runestaves or runestocks of the Norse. These were almanacs and calendars of the festivals, moons and other events of the seasonal year. That these runestocks survived among the Norse and the Anglo-Saxons can be attributed IMO to the lack of reported bonfires of such among them and their relatively late embrasure of Christianity. I envision a Poet standing like Charleton Heston before an audience with staff in hands and perhaps spelling the Ogham in a string of remembered chants that might have recreated the parting of the Red Sea for them.:-) Searles

Response:

That’s tomorrow. Thanks for the early warning. griann Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Re: What I know about the Celts and Druids (damn that was long): – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and the original book of kells is still being displayed at the Canberra national art gallery until may the 7th in Australia. — http://oakgrove.mainpage.net ICQ:16544782 at ICQ.com The professional class among the Celts were called things like Aes Da/na (Skilled Ones).  There were also Poets called Filidh. The Scandinavian people did not dominate the Celts though they certainly tried.  IIRC a certain group of Celts in Ireland defeated the Vikings and broke their power in Ireland forever at a battle called Clontarf.   Here’s a timeline:

— —- 8th Century ~774 Last use of the term “Cruthin” in C

Question:

 That’s a whole diferent story.  I know that some of you guys out there must be good enough players too make women come from listening to your playing. Why don’t some of you speak up?.  It’s not that unusual.  It’s happened to me on over 5 occasions that I know of and I can’t estimate how many woman were. too embarrased to say anything.  Do I need to get testimonials or are all you guys just wannabe guitar players and your really only good with computers like someone suggested  to me the other day.  If that is the case here, then why don’t you try accounting or some other job suitable for you lack of talent and personality. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo? Are you sure she wasn’t trying to piss on you ?

Response:

That’s a whole diferent story.  I know that some of you guys out there must be good enough players too make women come from listening to your playing. Why don’t some of you speak up?.  It’s not that unusual.  It’s happened to me on over 5 occasions that I know of and I can’t estimate how many woman were. too embarrased to say anything.  Do I need to get testimonials or are all you guys just wannabe guitar players and your really only good with computers like someone suggested  to me the other day.  If that is the case here, then why don’t you try accounting or some other job suitable for you lack of talent and personality. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo? Are you sure she wasn’t trying to piss on you ?

Response:

Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

yeah, but it was sure was messy on my guitar, and then there was all the chaffing…

Response:

Where have I lied?  Come up with some other than nah nah nah nahnah!  I’m rubber your glue…etc. Besides, I thought we were getting along. Troll-n.-someone who posts insulting and/or untruthful information in order to evoke a response, i.e. YOU.

Come on, like anyone’s going to believe you made a girl reach orgasm with a solo.

Response:

posting this?  I personally don’t give a rip if you’re better than me…..but that’s just me.  But I’ll bet I’m really in terms of how long I’ve been playing.  Later dude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess if I didn’t have to live here,  I wouldn’t want to come down to minneapolis just for the very slight chance of getting a wah pedal.  P.S. I can only offer what I can afford to lose.  However, if I had said free tickets to Jamaca, every down and out  virtuoso would probably be beating a path to my door.  But I didn’t. Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads

Response:

What are you talking about? Think before you fart. There are plenty of people who play various aspects of music much better than me.  I’m just very,very good at improvising,  and writing  catchy, original  stuff. AlDemeola plays better conventional ( generic) jazz than I do.  But I’m not talking about old ideas. Yngvie plays yngvie better than me.  I’m not a cover player.  Although I can play all that I hear sooner or later.  The difficult I play right away, the impossible may take a day.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is the best you could come up with?… some over distorted capriciata from Paganini? You gotta to do better than that to get my challenge. The woman that you made cum with your solo was Rue Paul.

Response:

Well, maybe you are but if your not interested in a free wah pedal why did you answer? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – posting this?  I personally don’t give a rip if you’re better than me…..but that’s just me.  But I’ll bet I’m really in terms of how long I’ve been playing.  Later dude.

Response:

I respect your answer, keep practicing.   You can do what you truly believe, if you truly believe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry, I’m no virtuoso, but it occurs to me that REAL players don’t need to brag or defend themselves. We have the confidence without needing to pump ourselves up to our peers. Just my $.02… TJS "…I’ll never find a better time to be alive than now…" Peter Hammill

Response:

You aren’t even worthy of a response foul mouth pete.   But I like you for some reason, you got "spunk". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wow, a cry baby? all to myself? WOW! how long did you save your allowance for it? btw, it’s "challenge" dumbass. Pete

Response:

Uh, Gee thanks, I know thats a real compliment.  Spinal Tap is a great lampoon.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Man, the next time that someone from Spinal Tap spontaneously combusts, I hope it’s Nigel Tufnel.  You would be the ultimate replacement for him. Are you a successful musician?  You don’t seem to be satisfied with yourself. If you were, you would realise that playing is not about competition- not egotism, winning, macho posturing, or childish challenges.

Response:

Where have I lied?  Come up with some other than nah nah nah nahnah!  I’m rubber your glue…etc. Besides, I thought we were getting along. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Troll-n.-someone who posts insulting and/or untruthful information in order to evoke a response, i.e. YOU.

Response:

 I can do that too, but I am very jaded in that department.  Too much excess leads to perversion.  Come down and join the orgy bring your family and some axel grease.   See you real soon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – nope, but I make a girl come with something else… and I bet you can’t

Response:

of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?

Are you sure she wasn’t trying to piss on you ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads.  If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.  Afterall,  any beginner could learn the entire Rising Force album note for note in a couple of months.  As well as anything by Nuno Beetencourt.  So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo? Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t. nope, but I make a girl come with something else… and I bet you can’t

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess if I didn’t have to live here,  I wouldn’t want to come down to minneapolis just for the very slight chance of getting a wah pedal.  P.S. I can only offer what I can afford to lose.  However, if I had said free tickets to Jamaca, every down and out  virtuoso would probably be beating a path to my door.  But I didn’t. Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads

must be spring, I feel the hot air moveing in

Response:

So shouldn’t the satisfaction of making me eat my words be enough?  More than likely you’d go home with you tail between your legs.  Terry make up your mind or do you always hide behind the ambiguity of an androgenous moniker. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

I’m sorry, I’m no virtuoso, but it occurs to me that REAL players don’t need to brag or defend themselves. We have the confidence without needing to pump ourselves up to our peers. Just my $.02… TJS "…I’ll never find a better time to be alive than now…" Peter Hammill

Response:

I guess if I didn’t have to live here,  I wouldn’t want to come down to minneapolis just for the very slight chance of getting a wah pedal.  P.S.  I can only offer what I can afford to lose.  However, if I had said free tickets to Jamaca, every down and out  virtuoso would probably be beating a path to my door.  But I didn’t. Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads Swap licks ala cross roads????

this is the best you could come up with?… some over distorted capriciata from Paganini? You gotta to do better than that to get my challenge. The woman that you made cum with your solo was Rue Paul.

Response:

If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.

    No person I consider a musician would make such a statement, even if true, because accuracy and speed are about technic and originality is only one aspect of making music. DBluzz  

Response:

Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads.  If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.  Afterall,  any beginner could learn the entire Rising Force album note for note in a couple of months.  As well as anything by Nuno Beetencourt.  So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

wow, a cry baby? all to myself? WOW! how long did you save your allowance for it? btw, it’s "challenge" dumbass. Pete

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads.  If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.  Afterall,  any beginner could learn the entire Rising Force album note for note in a couple of months.  As well as anything by Nuno Beetencourt.  So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

Troll-n.-someone who posts insulting and/or untruthful information in order to evoke a response, i.e. YOU.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads.  If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.  Afterall,  any beginner could learn the entire Rising Force album note for note in a couple of months.  As well as anything by Nuno Beetencourt.  So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

nope, but I make a girl come with something else… and I bet you can’t

Response:

Man, the next time that someone from Spinal Tap spontaneously combusts, I hope it’s Nigel Tufnel.  You would be the ultimate replacement for him.  Are you a successful musician?  You don’t seem to be satisfied with yourself. If you were, you would realise that playing is not about competition- not egotism, winning, macho posturing, or childish challenges.

Response:

Wow, I’m impressed. I usually made the girls cum after the show. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess if I didn’t have to live here,  I wouldn’t want to come down to minneapolis just for the very slight chance of getting a wah pedal.  P.S. I can only offer what I can afford to lose.  However, if I had said free tickets to Jamaca, every down and out  virtuoso would probably be beating a path to my door.  But I didn’t. Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads

Response:

I guess if I didn’t have to live here,  I wouldn’t want to come down to minneapolis just for the very slight chance of getting a wah pedal.  P.S.  I can only offer what I can afford to lose.  However, if I had said free tickets to Jamaca, every down and out  virtuoso would probably be beating a path to my door.  But I didn’t. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads

Response:

Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads.  If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.  Afterall,  any beginner could learn the entire Rising Force album note for note in a couple of months.  As well as anything by Nuno Beetencourt.  So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

Response:

Question:

Hi   Which is the most popular accounting software package in the UK and which would be the best to study so as to ensure a job ???     Cheers            Paul

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi   Which is the most popular accounting software package in the UK and which would be the best to study so as to ensure a job ???     Cheers            Paul

Response:

Question:

hmmmm.  I’ve been around a while, myself.  Sometimes the "new" acting is kind of "tinny," kind of "brash," and lacking in SUBSTANCE.   HUMANITY Online/Talent Online Website http://h4h.com/~talent and BBS 213-936-6009.  Helping Creative People One Person at a Time.  Seeking, Creating, Marketing & Presenting New Projects & Inventions on Radio, TV, Stage & Cyberspace.  A Non-Profit Service of the Landmark Ebony Showcase Theatre & Cultural Arts Center, Inc., est. 1950.  Writers, Visual & Performing Artists, Craftspeople, Technicians, Filmmakers, Independent Projects.  Helping kids & adults.  Books & Resources are now available. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with Bill.  As I have said numerous times before, there is no ONE way of acting.  Never has been, never will be.  A good actor is a combination of many styles and techniques.  I strongly believe that if you only study with a few teachers, you are doing yourself a large injustice. We can only learn so much from one teacher and then we must move on, even if it seems a safe place to be. , Bill Smith writes:  Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with. But my BEST coaches always encouraged me to shop around for coaches,teachers and acting prof’s…. and to either insist on seeing seeing a resume, or to direct lots of questions to their students. NOW WE GET TO LISTEN TO JEREMY’S REBUTTAL!!!! Of course, take all kinds of classes, but time is precious so don’t waste time learning how to drive a horse and buggy, when in real life you’re going to drive a car. I am not the only one with a new approach to acting. What I’m advising is, don’t take time learning a system of acting that is in the very last stage of dying. Now, if I follow this argument…. an actor should study with anybody CLAIMING that he/she represents a NEW VISION in acting…. By Jeremy’s vision, that should be someone who rejects everything that Stanislavski taught.  (Jeremy, we’ve been here before…. you’re becoming redundant…. why don’t you pose some NEW arguments?)  So…. anybody who studied with Bobby Lewis, Stella Adler (as I did) or Strasberg…. is of THE OLD SCHOOL.  TO BE CONDEMNED.  OUTLAWED (in another of Jeremy’s posts.) Stanislavski is dying, only in your opinion, Jeremy.  Lewis and Adler and dozens of others, like me, who studied with a mentor, evolve…. do you hear that, Jeremy?  It’s not static, never was.   You even admit some exposure with a Stanislavski-based coach…. and it’s clear that you have a bad experience.  EXPLAIN.  DEMONSTRATE.  What are the horrible details? Seek out teachers with a fresh approach to the art, people doing new and exciting work, Well, Jeremy, most of the actors who train with me say that my coaching is fresh, esxciting and innovative.  I guess they’re mistaken.  I’ll suggest that they move to Phildelphia. not those squeezing the last living atom of a hundred year old idea. Method, Stanislavski, Meisner, all styles related to that are a waste of time unless you’re studying the history of acting. All actors should study the history of acting, but not to the point of spending months or years learning systems that are out of date and out of touch with contempory acting demands. Todays acting demands a much higher level of empathy and a much lower level of ego than those old styles work from. Jeremy, you have demonstrated little empathy, but a tremendous amount of ego in your posts in these last few months.  Your ego is demonstrated by you (I HOPE) facetious suggestion to BAN anything to do with Stanislasvki.  (See my earlier tongue-in-cheek post to you.) They were exactly right for their time, but they are long past due dying. The root of the ideas which rule all Stanislavski based training, and those systems come in many disguises, that root is well over a hundred years old, com’on it’s almost 2000. Let it go, bury it. When those ideas were born, they didn’t even have cars or radios and the world was lily white and run by kings and empororers, and czars, get serious. You’re rambling, Jeremy. Why don’t you drink a cup or two of coffee? I know a lot of you are making money off of selling this stuff, and you’re really frightened by anything with the word new in front of it. Now, Jeremy, look in a mirror before you accuse me of this.  Who commercalizes his classes and books on this and other boards. Enough, students, you think about it, when you stop buying this worn out run down approach, they will stop selling it. Look hard at what teachers are trying to sell you, if it smells really old and musty, go to another store and keep on going until you find somebody that is really plugged in, somebody with a fresh new idea that makes sense to you. Trust your instincts, acting isn’t zen, vodoo, or Freud, it’s all about people and their feelings, you may need a guide, but you don’t need an interpreter. Jeremy Jeremy…. this "dialogue" has long since deserted the original post from the premed at UCLA.  And your arguments have become long-winded, illogical and full of yourself.   I’ll admit to this quirk….. when I read one of you posts announcing to a novice that Stanislavski is dead…. and you suggest that actors need to take one of Jeremy’s classes, read his books, or take an improv class…. I WILL CONTINUE to offer a different point of view.   If you want to take that personally and launch into another one your your rambling diatribes…. why not just be honest and address me, personally.   Bill

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with Bill.  As I have said numerous times before, there is no ONE way of acting.  Never has been, never will be.  A good actor is a combination of many styles and techniques.  I strongly believe that if you only study with a few teachers, you are doing yourself a large injustice. We can only learn so much from one teacher and then we must move on, even if it seems a safe place to be. , Bill Smith writes:  Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with. But my BEST coaches always encouraged me to shop around for coaches,teachers and acting prof’s…. and to either insist on seeing seeing a resume, or to direct lots of questions to their students.

NOW WE GET TO LISTEN TO JEREMY’S REBUTTAL!!!! Of course, take all kinds of classes, but time is precious so don’t waste time learning how to drive a horse and buggy, when in real life you’re going to drive a car. I am not the only one with a new approach to acting. What I’m advising is, don’t take time learning a system of acting that is in the very last stage of dying.

Now, if I follow this argument…. an actor should study with anybody CLAIMING that he/she represents a NEW VISION in acting…. By Jeremy’s vision, that should be someone who rejects everything that Stanislavski taught.  (Jeremy, we’ve been here before…. you’re becoming redundant…. why don’t you pose some NEW arguments?)  So…. anybody who studied with Bobby Lewis, Stella Adler (as I did) or Strasberg…. is of THE OLD SCHOOL.  TO BE CONDEMNED.  OUTLAWED (in another of Jeremy’s posts.) Stanislavski is dying, only in your opinion, Jeremy.  Lewis and Adler and dozens of others, like me, who studied with a mentor, evolve…. do you hear that, Jeremy?  It’s not static, never was.   You even admit some exposure with a Stanislavski-based coach…. and it’s clear that you have a bad experience.  EXPLAIN.  DEMONSTRATE.  What are the horrible details? Seek out teachers with a fresh approach to the art, people doing new and exciting work,

Well, Jeremy, most of the actors who train with me say that my coaching is fresh, esxciting and innovative.  I guess they’re mistaken.  I’ll suggest that they move to Phildelphia. not those squeezing the last living atom of a hundred year old idea. Method, Stanislavski, Meisner, all styles related to that are a waste of time unless you’re studying the history of acting. All actors should study the history of acting, but not to the point of spending months or years learning systems that are out of date and out of touch with contempory acting demands. Todays acting demands a much higher level of empathy and a much lower level of ego than those old styles work from.

Jeremy, you have demonstrated little empathy, but a tremendous amount of ego in your posts in these last few months.  Your ego is demonstrated by you (I HOPE) facetious suggestion to BAN anything to do with Stanislasvki.  (See my earlier tongue-in-cheek post to you.) They were exactly right for their time, but they are long past due dying. The root of the ideas which rule all Stanislavski based training, and those systems come in many disguises, that root is well over a hundred years old, com’on it’s almost 2000. Let it go, bury it. When those ideas were born, they didn’t even have cars or radios and the world was lily white and run by kings and empororers, and czars, get serious.

You’re rambling, Jeremy. Why don’t you drink a cup or two of coffee? I know a lot of you are making money off of selling this stuff, and you’re really frightened by anything with the word new in front of it.

Now, Jeremy, look in a mirror before you accuse me of this.  Who commercalizes his classes and books on this and other boards. Enough, students, you think about it, when you stop buying this worn out run down approach, they will stop selling it. Look hard at what teachers are trying to sell you, if it smells really old and musty, go to another store and keep on going until you find somebody that is really plugged in, somebody with a fresh new idea that makes sense to you. Trust your instincts, acting isn’t zen, vodoo, or Freud, it’s all about people and their feelings, you may need a guide, but you don’t need an interpreter. Jeremy

Jeremy…. this "dialogue" has long since deserted the original post from the premed at UCLA.  And your arguments have become long-winded, illogical and full of yourself.   I’ll admit to this quirk….. when I read one of you posts announcing to a novice that Stanislavski is dead…. and you suggest that actors need to take one of Jeremy’s classes, read his books, or take an improv class…. I WILL CONTINUE to offer a different point of view.   If you want to take that personally and launch into another one your your rambling diatribes…. why not just be honest and address me, personally.   Bill

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with Bill.  As I have said numerous times before, there is no ONE way of acting.  Never has been, never will be.  A good actor is a combination of many styles and techniques.  I strongly believe that if you only study with a few teachers, you are doing yourself a large injustice. We can only learn so much from one teacher and then we must move on, even if it seems a safe place to be. , Bill Smith writes:  Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with. But my BEST coaches always encouraged me to shop around for coaches,teachers and acting prof’s…. and to either insist on seeing seeing a resume, or to direct lots of questions to their students.

Of course, take all kinds of classes, but time is precious so don’t waste time learning how to drive a horse and buggy, when in real life you’re going to drive a car. I am not the only one with a new approach to acting. What I’m advising is, don’t take time learning a system of acting that is in the very last stage of dying. Seek out teachers with a fresh approach to the art, people doing new and exciting work, not those squeezing the last living atom of a hundred year old idea. Method, Stanislavski, Meisner, all styles related to that are a waste of time unless you’re studying the history of acting. All actors should study the history of acting, but not to the point of spending months or years learning systems that are out of date and out of touch with contempory acting demands. Todays acting demands a much higher level of empathy and a much lower level of ego than those old styles work from. They were exactly right for their time, but they are long past due dying. The root of the ideas which rule all Stanislavski based training, and those systems come in many disguises, that root is well over a hundred years old, com’on it’s almost 2000. Let it go, bury it. When those ideas were born, they didn’t even have cars or radios and the world was lily white and run by kings and empororers, and czars, get serious. I know a lot of you are making money off of selling this stuff, and you’re really frightened by anything with the word new in front of it. Enough, students, you think about it, when you stop buying this worn out run down approach, they will stop selling it. Look hard at what teachers are trying to sell you, if it smells really old and musty, go to another store and keep on going until you find somebody that is really plugged in, somebody with a fresh new idea that makes sense to you. Trust your instincts, acting isn’t zen, vodoo, or Freud, it’s all about people and their feelings, you may need a guide, but you don’t need an interpreter. Jeremy   http://www.Jeremy-Whelan-Acting.com                            Home page of New School Acting

Response:

Jeremy, I don’t subscribe that the traditional form of acting is dead or dying. Look at the fabulous performances of some actors who subscribe to the "old school".  There are too numerous to mention.  The reason is, it works. However, I don’t want to get into a symantics discussion  with Jeremy. As I said, the best actors are a blend of many techniques.  Certainly there is good an bad in everything.  For every good teacher, there are 4 bad ones.  By bad I mean that they won’t do anything for you, but they might help someone else.  And then some are just bad.  Point is, look first, then leap.  And if you feel like you aren’t getting what you need, look again.  Keep looking, always.  We never know everything and we can always learn from someone. Peter Elliott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course, take all kinds of classes, but time is precious so don’t waste time learning how to drive a horse and buggy, when in real life you’re going to drive a car. I am not the only one with a new approach to acting. What I’m advising is, don’t take time learning a system of acting that is in the very last stage of dying. Seek out teachers with a fresh approach to the art, people doing new and exciting work, not those squeezing the last living atom of a hundred year old idea. Method, Stanislavski, Meisner, all styles related to that are a waste of time unless you’re studying the history of acting. All actors should study the history of acting, but not to the point of spending months or years learning systems that are out of date and out of touch with contempory acting demands. Todays acting demands a much higher level of empathy and a much lower level of ego than those old styles work from. They were exactly right for their time, but they are long past due dying. The root of the ideas which rule all Stanislavski based training, and those systems come in many disguises, that root is well over a hundred years old, com’on it’s almost 2000. Let it go, bury it. When those ideas were born, they didn’t even have cars or radios and the world was lily white and run by kings and empororers, and czars, get serious. I know a lot of you are making money off of selling this stuff, and you’re really frightened by anything with the word new in front of it. Enough, students, you think about it, when you stop buying this worn out run down approach, they will stop selling it. Look hard at what teachers are trying to sell you, if it smells really old and musty, go to another store and keep on going until you find somebody that is really plugged in, somebody with a fresh new idea that makes sense to you. Trust your instincts, acting isn’t zen, vodoo, or Freud, it’s all about people and their feelings, you may need a guide, but you don’t need an interpreter. Jeremy

Peter Elliott

Response:

  And by the way, an improv class in the hands of an incompetent coach can be disastorous…. you’ll might end up learning more bad acting habits than good.

Touche Jeremy   http://www.Jeremy-Whelan-Acting.com                                      Home page of New School Acting

Response:

I agree with Bill.  As I have said numerous times before, there is no ONE way of acting.  Never has been, never will be.  A good actor is a combination of many styles and techniques.  I strongly believe that if you only study with a few teachers, you are doing yourself a large injustice. We can only learn so much from one teacher and then we must move on, even if it seems a safe place to be.  Change is the main thing that makes us great actors.  We must experience many things so we can better understand all aspects of life and, in this instance, acting. Peter Elliott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Micheal, Travis pretty much said it all so this is just reenforcement. Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with.    I will respectufully disagree with Jeremy.  Jeremy and I are both actors and we are also coaches.  While I resist lables, I freely admit that I studied with Adler and Lewis — decades later, I suppose I could call myself Stanislavski influenced.      But my BEST coaches always encouraged me to shop around for coaches, teachers and acting prof’s…. and to either insist on seeing seeing a resume, or to direct lots of questions to their students.

Peter Elliott

Response:

Micheal, Travis pretty much said it all so this is just reenforcement. Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with. Jeremy   http://www.Jeremy-Whelan-Acting.com                          Home page of New School Acting

Response:

Micheal, Travis pretty much said it all so this is just reenforcement. Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with.

        I will respectufully disagree with Jeremy.  Jeremy and I are both actors and we are also coaches.  While I resist lables, I freely admit that I studied with Adler and Lewis — decades later, I suppose I could call myself Stanislavski influenced.           But my BEST coaches always encouraged me to shop around for coaches, teachers and acting prof’s…. and to either insist on seeing seeing a resume, or to direct lots of questions to their students.         The point is…. don’t take any one person’s word…. shop around.         And by the way, an improv class in the hands of an incompetent coach can be disastorous…. you’ll might end up learning more bad acting habits than good. Break a leg, Bill

Response:

Travis pretty much said it all so this is just reenforcement. Yes take a class, but be careful in choosing a teacher, Lots of hacks out there and they could ruin a dream in a hurry. Don’t go near the Method or Meisner. Take improv classes to begin with.   And by the way, an improv class in the hands of an incompetent coach can be disastorous…. you’ll might end up learning more bad acting habits than good.

Touche Jeremy   http://www.Jeremy-Whelan-Acting.com                                      Home page of New School Acting

Response:

Lots of questions by Michael, One, if you are interested in acting, TRY IT!  Take a theater class at UCLA or audition for a theater production there.  It will take a little time, but then you will have a feel for what acting is. About the lifestyle, actors are known for the bizzarre, but most lead normal lives (at least the ones who make a living at it).  A "starving actor" will work odd jobs, stay in rundown places with weird room mates and eat macaroni and cheese for dinner every night.  The life style is up to you based on what you are willing to do for the sake of acting.   There is no path to "making it".  Each actor has a different story.  Some have things handed to them by fate, family or blind luck.  Others work hard, study the craft, network and keep at it until it happens or they give up and try something else.  Others just call themselves an actor without ever really trying.   They either train and train but never perform, or they audition and audition without getting the  part because they aren’t bothering with training. But for you, I would say get out there and try it while you still have some time.  It may not be for you and you will never have to wonder "what if".  If you love it, it may change you life, or it may give you something to do many years from now when you have a practice and some time to act. Either way, you at least get to taste it first hand. Peter Elliott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a premed at UCLA, and I have at various times considered acting. Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about the business, and I have heard that the life of an actor can be miserable.   Basically I am afraid of doing something stupid and trashing my future. How can I learn more about REAL actors/acting and "making it"? What kind of life does the "average" actor (is there such a thing) live? What does it take to be successful? Should I take classes? Am I just nuts??? I am sure that experience is a critical component of success, and I have little to none of that But I feel that I should at least try.  In a few years my future will be pretty much locked, and I think now is the time. Any help or information would be appreciated. Thanks Very Much Michael

Peter Elliott

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am a premed at UCLA, and I have at various times considered acting. Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about the business, and I have heard that the life of an actor can be miserable. Basically I am afraid of doing something stupid and trashing my future. How can I learn more about REAL actors/acting and "making it"? What kind of life does the "average" actor (is there such a thing) live? What does it take to be successful? Should I take classes? Am I just nuts??? I am sure that experience is a critical component of success, and I have little to none of that But I feel that I should at least try.  In a few years my future will be pretty much locked, and I think now is the time. Any help or information would be appreciated. Thanks Very Much Michael

Hi Michael… I am a successful voice actor/announcer.  By successful, I mean that I’m able to earn a living doing exclusively this kind of work.  I also know several "successful" actors and a lot of "unsuccessful ones.  I spent the first half of my life trying desperately to be "responsible". (I was always good physics and electronics and tried to be an "engineer" (working in showbiz) I was not happy in my career, even though I did some "acting" type work part time.  Through an odd series of happenings, I slowly came to the realization that, although I had the ability to be an "engineer", my temperment was that of an "artist". Oddly enough, the tests that I took in high school, (the kind that tell you what you really want to be) said that I was an "actor" or "writer" or some such thing — not an engineer.  At the time I had no exposure to performing, and I was sure the test was totally off-base. It has surprised me that as an "artist" I am much less "stressed-out" – and actually do better, financially, than as an "engineer". I also know a few others who have pursued the "responsible" route through life, who are quietly miserable — I also know a couple of actors who went into the field because of parental pressure (parents were actors) who are clearly not happy — they should be accountants or some such thing.  As a matter of fact, my lawyer used to be an actress – one who had considerable success – got into the field due to her parents (both actors) and one day realized she would be much happier if she became a lawyer — she did and she is! Now to the answer to your questions… (of course there is no simple answer) 1.  Samuel French Bookstores (In Hollywood and Studio city) have a lot of books on acting and "making it in Hollywood". Most (but not all), believe it or not, actually offer reasonable advice. There are literally hundreds of books by well-known actors, describing their careers.  Most are fairly honest, especially the ones where the actors claim they have no idea why they have had success. 2.  There is no "making it" in Hollywood.  No matter who you are, you are always in an insecure position. 3.  There is no such thing as an "average actor"  Some are millionaires, some are homeless most are not making a living from acting. (I think the "homeless" actors would be homeless, even if they weren’t actors) 4.  It is important to remember, that as an actor, you are always in business for yourself. Success (being able to earn a living) depends on product (your talent) and marketing (how well and how much you promote yourself)  If you define success as making millions and becoming a star, consider playing the lottery. 5.  Yes.  Take classes… It will tell you a lot about yourself.  You will change as a person, and the classes will make you a better doctor, if that is the path you choose.  (I understand some medical schools are recommending that their students take acting or speech classes) 6.  Being "nuts" is a requirement for any job in showbiz  (this is not a joke). 7.  Being an artist is not a choice.  It is ingrained into a person’s personality.  If you are one, and you ignore that (stay "in the artistic "closet" so-to-speak), you will never achieve fullfulment.  If you try to be one and you’re not, you will also not be happy. -Good Luck (whatever path you choose) Travis (The Voice-Over Guy from Newport Beach, CA)

Response:

Hi I am a premed at UCLA, and I have at various times considered acting. Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about the business, and I have heard that the life of an actor can be miserable.   Basically I am afraid of doing something stupid and trashing my future. How can I learn more about REAL actors/acting and "making it"? What kind of life does the "average" actor (is there such a thing) live? What does it take to be successful? Should I take classes? Am I just nuts??? I am sure that experience is a critical component of success, and I have little to none of that But I feel that I should at least try.  In a few years my future will be pretty much locked, and I think now is the time. Any help or information would be appreciated. Thanks Very Much Michael

Response: