Question:

hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Jim’s more objective about it than you are, Mike.  Given your problem, you’re not going to find a better solution. Joe Calypso Green ‘93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black ‘03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim?

I would suggest that if you aren’t willing to pay this small amount to get your vehicle fixed, that you are not being very realistic about what it takes to repair most things. The diagnostic computers, cables and the training needed to operate all of this is fairly expensive. The total operating costs for a repair business are very high and you are expected to pay for the time you use up. You are whining about a very small repair bill.

Response:

Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words….

Very well said. I can’t begin to imagine why he is complaining about such a tiny repair bill. It is truly amazing that he is mad because someone could actually fix his vehicle for such a small amount.

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim?

Mike, Why don’t you buy your own diagnostic computer, go to school for quite some time, buy all the tools you need for this job and than use your own connections to order the special parts you need. Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it. That is what a mechanic thinks when people bitch about paying for repair services. Claud

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective,  do ya jim? I would suggest that if you aren’t willing to pay this small amount to get your vehicle fixed, that you are not being very realistic about what it takes to repair most things. The diagnostic computers, cables and the training needed to operate all of this is fairly expensive. The total operating costs for a repair business are very high and you are expected to pay for the time you use up. You are whining about a very small repair bill.

I’d say it’s a normal screw job. Dealer repair bill, credit card, learning experience, priceless!

Response:

** let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me ** for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed ** there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. The money sounds pretty reasonable to me.  The diagnosis is what is worth it’s weight in gold; installing a part isn’t that big a deal, but hiring a specialist to properly diagnose a problem like this is where the magic happens, and most outfits need to collect about $75/hr. to make any money at all.  Kwitcherbellyachin and pay the man.  Or fix it yourself! I’m taking The Winter Beater in today for a very simple yet vexing problem: I dropped a bolt down into the pulley assembly, and it somehow managed to get behind the crank pulley and won’t come out.  Makes a hellacious amount of noise, and if I drive it much, it will eventually take out the seal and bearing.  It’s FWD (damn!) and the only way you can pull that crank pulley is to lift the engine out of the cradle – there is only 3/4" in. between the pulley and the frame.  Hellova design, I’ll tell ya.  The cost: $75.00/hr. for the man’s time, and I’ll gladly pay it.  I don’t expect these people to work for free.  I sure as hell wouldn’t. Regards, -JD JD’s Locally-Famous Mustang Page: http:/207.13.104.8/users/jdadams

Response:

Well I would have defeated the asinine shift interlock switch  with 10 cents worth of wire and two connectors( go figure, I know how to operate the gas and the brake pedal without big brother coddling me!) Problem solved.  But then again I know what to do. That must be worth something? Knowledge, Ability,Experience, Tools, Equipment, Facilities, Heating, Maintenance, Supplies, Fuel, Insurance etc. The longer my resume gets the more money I’d like to make. Do you work for free? Do you take a pay cut as you get more knowledgeable in your job? I estimate jobs for living. I’m pure overhead. I’m fairly well paid yet produce nothing but a "paper" quote. I’m literally paid for what I know. I have to figure my cost into a job and believe me nothing is free. I used to think in similar terms but have realized that people that have skills are well sought after and are usually worth spending the money on. The jobs are often done better and faster. You could spend days shopping around to save a few dollars but what is your time worth? Once you found someone that has a reasonable price (to you) and does good work, you should hang on to them. If you have issues with poor service that is another story. Vote with your wallet.  I do most of my car work myself but I like to say it takes a professional to know when to call another professional. There are some jobs better left to the people that know.  StuK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Mike, My ‘96 Contour has the same problem in extremely cold weather.  My shop looked at it and a slight oil leak.  Said it’d take $800 because you have to get the entire shifter from FoMoCo.  No individual parts available.  Or, they’d take out the interlock for < $200.  I decided to exercise my right arm and force it to work until warmer weather comes along.  They snugged up the bolts on the oil pan and transmission.  The leak stopped.  Cost me $29. — John If you Reply, be sure and remove the " (DELETE_THIS) " from the email address.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

John, I don’t want to sound like the devils advocate but I have to wonder about your shop. We have nowhere near the useless litigation that those in the states experience (though we appear to be catching up)….. I steadfastly refuse to enter into a modification that will render a safety device inoperative. While hacking the repair might save a few bucks, there is the ever so slight chance that I might be named correspondant in a criminal neglect case. The accountants mistake will get you a slap on the wrist, the shoe salesmans mistake will make your feet hurt…… my mistake can make someone very, very dead. Our automobiles are fun to drive, they offer us freedom our forebears could never even dream of, they are a convenience device that ever so many of us heartless beast waiting for us to unleash the deathly power that they have (a little too dramatic????) – the car is a machine and it really doesn’t care who lives and who dies but we have the "power" to control it…. Sorry if it sounds like I’m venting… your post just set us up for something I wanted to say sooner or later…. Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, My ‘96 Contour has the same problem in extremely cold weather.  My shop looked at it and a slight oil leak.  Said it’d take $800 because you have to get the entire shifter from FoMoCo.  No individual parts available.  Or, they’d take out the interlock for < $200.  I decided to exercise my right arm and force it to work until warmer weather comes along.  They snugged up the bolts on the oil pan and transmission.  The leak stopped.  Cost me $29. —

Response:

Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at. Years ago, cars were very simple (comparatively speaking) machines that could be fixed by anyone that was "good with their hands". Over my 35+ years of being involved in the trade, I have watched the car metamorphose into a machine that rivals the complexity of the space shuttle…. being "good with your hands" is still important for mundane repairs (though building and materials technology has us relearn many basics) but we are now faced with multiplexed communications networks. The PC that everyone seeing this post on is an abacus compared to a late model car. Being "good with your hands" just isn’t good enough for most repairs. All I can suggest is for consumers to accept the fact that they will pay diagnostic time….. in our shop we diagnose the concern (this includes time to duplicate the concern…. I can’t fix what ain’t broke) and prepare an estimate. The customer pays diagnostic time…… A written estimate is prepared and offered up to the customer. If I don’t fix the car right the first time, I don’t get paid…… and, in all honesty, I shouldn’t (though it escapes me why the doctor that lets me die is going to get paid for his mistake). When it comes time to drop our car off for servicing, we need to be honest…. leaving stuff out isn’t going to make the bill any cheaper and just may reduce it in some cases. Be available for consultation…… if I have your car apart in the bay and we can’t get in touch with you, you will either pay for me to push the car out or pay for me to reassemble whatever is disassembled just so I can disassemble it again for the repair. Cheap shops aren’t generally good and expensive shops aren’t necessarily good…. talk to your friends and relatives to see where they like to go. Remember that the guy that does ball joints for a decent price isn’t necessarily the guy that can handle electronic woes in a timely, economic fashion. If consumers can educate themselves, the bad guys will eventually be forced out of the system… probably a slow painful process. Then again, we still see lots of quack doctors……. Last of all, cheap ain’t…… Jim Warman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this couldn’t imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Jim, Can I use your words on the next customer who just wants "a cheap fix"? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John, I don’t want to sound like the devils advocate but I have to wonder about your shop. We have nowhere near the useless litigation that those in the states experience (though we appear to be catching up)….. I steadfastly refuse to enter into a modification that will render a safety device inoperative. While hacking the repair might save a few bucks, there is the ever so slight chance that I might be named correspondant in a criminal neglect case. The accountants mistake will get you a slap on the wrist, the shoe salesmans mistake will make your feet hurt…… my mistake can make someone very, very dead. Our automobiles are fun to drive, they offer us freedom our forebears could never even dream of, they are a convenience device that ever so many of us heartless beast waiting for us to unleash the deathly power that they have (a little too dramatic????) – the car is a machine and it really doesn’t care who lives and who dies but we have the "power" to control it…. Sorry if it sounds like I’m venting… your post just set us up for something I wanted to say sooner or later…. Jim Warman

Response:

I think I agree with Jim although when my temperature gauge was acting up several months ago, staying normal then shooting up, I thought it was a malfunctioning thermostate.  Then on a Wednesday when I had to get to the office for a conference call it "needled" about a block from Worthington Ford in Long Beach, CA.  So there I go and got a ride to the office.  So they said it was a clogged cooling system and radiator (replaced it 2 years ago) and needed new radiator, power flushing, hoses, etc. Since it’s a 90 LX 5.0 with only 90,000 miles on it I agreed.  Repair bill less than a year’s payments on a new car.  The "power flush" blew out the heater core and I ended up spending over $3,000.  That of course included a new clutch which I went for since the shop who works on my 67 Dodge R/T quoted $200 more. In summary, I don’t particularly like going to dealers for repairs but Jim isw right about the complexity of today’s machines and a dealer does have a reputation to protect.  So I guess we need to suck it up.  The old days are gone when a mechanis/technitian works for $10 an hour. Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at. Years ago, cars were very simple (comparatively speaking) machines that could be fixed by anyone that was "good with their hands". Over my 35+ years of being involved in the trade, I have watched the car metamorphose into a machine that rivals the complexity of the space shuttle…. being "good with your hands" is still important for mundane repairs (though building and materials technology has us relearn many basics) but we are now faced with multiplexed communications networks. The PC that everyone seeing this post on is an abacus compared to a late model car. Being "good with your hands" just isn’t good enough for most repairs. All I can suggest is for consumers to accept the fact that they will pay diagnostic time….. in our shop we diagnose the concern (this includes time to duplicate the concern…. I can’t fix what ain’t broke) and prepare an estimate. The customer pays diagnostic time…… A written estimate is prepared and offered up to the customer. If I don’t fix the car right the first time, I don’t get paid…… and, in all honesty, I shouldn’t (though it escapes me why the doctor that lets me die is going to get paid for his mistake). When it comes time to drop our car off for servicing, we need to be honest…. leaving stuff out isn’t going to make the bill any cheaper and just may reduce it in some cases. Be available for consultation…… if I have your car apart in the bay and we can’t get in touch with you, you will either pay for me to push the car out or pay for me to reassemble whatever is disassembled just so I can disassemble it again for the repair. Cheap shops aren’t generally good and expensive shops aren’t necessarily good…. talk to your friends and relatives to see where they like to go. Remember that the guy that does ball joints for a decent price isn’t necessarily the guy that can handle electronic woes in a timely, economic fashion. If consumers can educate themselves, the bad guys will eventually be forced out of the system… probably a slow painful process. Then again, we still see lots of quack doctors……. Last of all, cheap ain’t…… Jim Warman Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this couldn’t imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between

… read more »

Response:

Well Put

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

You bet…. I volunteer on our local fire department…. most of our calls are MVAs these days. Most of those are single vehicle accidents and I just can’t help but think that false economy helped some of them along. Any techs reading this…. just remember, we didn’t design them…. we didn’t build them……. most important – we didn’t break them. Unfortunately, come time for a customer to be upset, we are a little too handy 8^) An aside…. thankfully this wasn’t my Saturday to work…. another tech finished off a job I started Friday (normally doesn’t happen, but in this case….). Taurus with a pooched head and what looks like bits of piston welded to one spark plug…… Customer insists on having a new set of Motorcrafts installed and he’ll drive it home. I sure hope he doesn’t live too far away….. But we all know who will be blamed for the "no fix".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, Can I use your words on the next customer who just wants "a cheap fix"?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You bet…. I volunteer on our local fire department…. most of our calls are MVAs these days. Most of those are single vehicle accidents and I just can’t help but think that false economy helped some of them along. Any techs reading this…. just remember, we didn’t design them…. we didn’t build them……. most important – we didn’t break them. Unfortunately, come time for a customer to be upset, we are a little too handy 8^) An aside…. thankfully this wasn’t my Saturday to work…. another tech finished off a job I started Friday (normally doesn’t happen, but in this case….). Taurus with a pooched head and what looks like bits of piston welded to one spark plug…… Customer insists on having a new set of Motorcrafts installed and he’ll drive it home. I sure hope he doesn’t live too far away….. But we all know who will be blamed for the "no fix".

 Very interesting thread. Being a dreaded Service Writer, I expected a huge flame war against dealers. I was pleasantly surprised.   And Jim is very, very correct in his statements. A refurbished SBDS diagnostic machine is 15G’s. REFURB. But it’s almost obsolete. Now you gotta have the WDS.. bye bye 10 grand.. someone has to pay for this equipment. Guess who that is? The customer. This is why the labor rate is what it is. And for you folks paying $75/hr for labor, you’re getting a deal. From the latest reports I have heard, the average labor rate in the San Francisco area is $125/hr. Cars are unbelievably complex now. You know that big thing called the internet? It’s a big computer network that spans the globe. Guess what? There’s a network in your new car too. Yup. It’s called CAN, and it’s an actual network in your car. No longer is it needed to have 3 different speed sensors for 3 different control modules in your vehicle. 1 sensor can be used, and the data shared over the CAN with all the modules. Wanna know something else that’s coming? 42V electrical systems. Yes.. the current requirements for all of the systems on a car, plus the stuff they want to put on them, is almost to the point of overloading the current 12V system. The traditional starter? GONE.. The traditional alternator? GONE. Replaced by electromagnetic coils in the flywheel assy. Power steering pump? Electric.. Water pump? Electric. The revolution in automotive technology has just begun. Just wait..   The dealer has to be able to fix *anything*  If you take your car to 10 different shops and they can’t fix it, where do you end up? The dealer. Sorry, but it costs a lot of money for training, equipment, overhead, etc to be able to repair vehicles at the dealer level. I had a customer spend over $800 dollars at independent shops on O2 sensor, MAF sensor, crank angle sensor, etc, etc, on his 2001 Taurus that he NEVER NEEDED!. That’s right, the independents lacked the technical skill and knowledge to correctly diagnose the problem. Just because there is a DTC for an EGR system problem does not make a bad EGR valve. Wanna know something? The *real* fix cost him $175.00. Wanna know what it was? A bad connector at the Mass Air Flow sensor. Yup. $975 to get his car fixed, when it could have only cost him a connector and pins. He learned his lesson.   What you really pay for is knowledge. Time is just a convenient way to attach a certain dollar amount to the amount of skill and knowledge it will take to repair something. If you want to pay $25/hour for labor, then you’ll get what you pay for.  Sorry for the ramble.. Michael

Response:

Jim, where are you?  I’m just curious with the Telus e-mail….  if you’re close to me, I’ll come by and see you next time my 5.0 (or Bronco) decides to give me grief…. (as you’ve already helped me in here before…)  :) Brad S

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at. Years ago, cars were very simple (comparatively speaking) machines that could be fixed by anyone that was "good with their hands". Over my 35+ years of being involved in the trade, I have watched the car metamorphose into a machine that rivals the complexity of the space shuttle…. being "good with your hands" is still important for mundane repairs (though building and materials technology has us relearn many basics) but we are now faced with multiplexed communications networks. The PC that everyone seeing this post on is an abacus compared to a late model car. Being "good with your hands" just isn’t good enough for most repairs. All I can suggest is for consumers to accept the fact that they will pay diagnostic time….. in our shop we diagnose the concern (this includes time to duplicate the concern…. I can’t fix what ain’t broke) and prepare an estimate. The customer pays diagnostic time…… A written estimate is prepared and offered up to the customer. If I don’t fix the car right the first time, I don’t get paid…… and, in all honesty, I shouldn’t (though it escapes me why the doctor that lets me die is going to get paid for his mistake). When it comes time to drop our car off for servicing, we need to be honest…. leaving stuff out isn’t going to make the bill any cheaper and just may reduce it in some cases. Be available for consultation…… if I have your car apart in the bay and we can’t get in touch with you, you will either pay for me to push the car out or pay for me to reassemble whatever is disassembled just so I can disassemble it again for the repair. Cheap shops aren’t generally good and expensive shops aren’t necessarily good…. talk to your friends and relatives to see where they like to go. Remember that the guy that does ball joints for a decent price isn’t necessarily the guy that can handle electronic woes in a timely, economic fashion. If consumers can educate themselves, the bad guys will eventually be forced out of the system… probably a slow painful process. Then again, we still see lots of quack doctors……. Last of all, cheap ain’t…… Jim Warman Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this couldn’t imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at.

Absolutely.  I’m still trying to untangle why a 15k mile "tune-up" that consists of an oil change and "inspecting" all the rubber under the hood costs $USD 100.  I frankly think that automakers have done very well at making cars very low maintenance but the service industry is doing as much as possible to make drivers think that cars need constant attention because the cars basically don’t require anything but warranty repair otherwise.  Service techs don’t make shit on warranty service. I know, I know.  It’s easier to get warranty service when you’ve been shelling out the $$$ to the dealer for "tune-ups" on cars that require nothing more than an oil change – according to the warranty schedule. I’m still tickled pink that I bought a brand new car from one of the Ford companies, and no one took the time to run the TSBs as they delivered the car to me and say "there are a few warranty issues we should correct right away".  No, it took a few months for me to notice a problem and find the TSB myself… then I had to take the car to the dealer twice to get it fixed (once to verify the problem they could have verified before delivery, another time to replace the parts after ordering them).  The problem?  Poorly designed fuel-filler results in early shut-off.  It’s not like a minor problem that most people would overlook. Let’s not overlook the Ford Windstar I had that developed a terrible brake shimmy after 12000 miles. I pulled the rotors and replaced them with aftermarket rotors which lasted more than 90k miles with one resurfacing, after the dealer tried to sell me a $300 brake job.  Gosh, when I looked, I found a TSB that explained that Ford had installed *the wrong rotors* at the factory.  You think the dealer volunteered this?  Nope.  They offered a $300 brake job *I didn’t need*.  I spent $100 and an hour of my time to fix it myself.  I know, I know, I could have killed my family saving that $200… err, $300… but I didn’t.  That car stopped well right up until we sold it. The two-week old Geo Prism we had in 1993… a brand new car.  The ECU died and the dealer spent 5 days working on the car and then told me it would take two weeks to fix and cost $500.  So I called the 1-800-ASK-GM-FOR-HELP number, and the customer service rep found an ECU and FedExed it to the dealer. Funny, the car was fixed two days later at $0 cost to me.  Suppose I’d trusted the "experts" at the dealer… Jim, I totally respect the skill and training that automotive service techs have.  But it’s getting harder to defend service techs when they’re making the mortgage on superfluous service.  Cars are more complicated than ever, but they’re also more reliable than ever.  The next time someone tries to sell me a $100 "fuel injector cleaning" on the basis of nothing more than "injectors can get clogged, you don’t want that", I’m likely to say "let’s pull those injectors out and test them, and if even one of them is clogged or sprays funny, I’ll pay you $200 to clean them, otherwise you pay me $100 for trying to sell me a needless service".  Wonder how many takers I’d have (I think the answer is *zero*, which is odd when *they* started out saying I needed the service). Cars break and we need experts to fix them.  But the "experts" have done much to erode trust when ordinary service that consists of nothing more than an oil change and probing/flashlighting all the rubber is over $USD 200 depending on the mile interval. Don’t get me wrong.  I really do appreciate expert debugging and repair.  I just have come to believe that the situation is artificially complicated in ways designed to exploit the consumer and it’s breaking down the cycle of trust.  When a service tech tells me something today, I have a lot of reason to question the validity.  So please don’t blame or get self-righteous with someone that can’t believe a broken switch costs $130.  They’ve got reason to ask and it’s nothing personal. Dana

Response:

You bet…. I volunteer on our local fire department…. most of our calls are MVAs these days. Most of those are single vehicle accidents and I just can’t help but think that false economy helped some of them along.

Whoa.  I’ve seen a lot of accidents in my driving days, and most of them were clearly the result of driver error.  Perhaps things are different in your part of North America, but down here in California, people drive too fast and follow too closely and that’s what causes accidents, as verified by my highway patrol friends I ask. Dana

Response:

 Very interesting thread. Being a dreaded Service Writer, I expected a huge flame war against dealers. I was pleasantly surprised.

Well, I hope I haven’t ruined your day…   And Jim is very, very correct in his statements. A refurbished SBDS diagnostic machine is 15G’s. REFURB. But it’s almost obsolete. Now you gotta have the WDS.. bye bye 10 grand.. someone has to pay for this equipment. Guess who that is? The customer. This is why the labor rate is what it is. And for you folks paying $75/hr for labor, you’re getting a deal. From the latest reports I have heard, the average labor rate in the San Francisco area is $125/hr.

$100 in Napa, California. Cars are unbelievably complex now.

They’re also unbelievable reliable now.  That’s the problem for dealers. Cars just don’t need a lot of fixing.  If it wasn’t for that darn check-engine light, you’d never see a running car The traditional starter? GONE..

In which cars in the 2004 model year? The traditional alternator? GONE. Replaced by electromagnetic coils in the flywheel assy.

In a hybrid car, sure.  Otherwise, which 2004 models lack an alternator? Power steering pump? Electric..

Which models?  Since the only source of power in a car is the mechanical engine, pumps are still best driven by a belt.  Perhaps you’re referring to hybrids again? Water pump? Electric.

In which currently-shipping models? The revolution in automotive technology has just begun. Just wait..

Sure.  Cars that require oil changes every 5k miles or so and new plugs at 60k miles… that’s been pretty revolutionary. Are you saying that the manufacturers have been making cars less reliable?   The dealer has to be able to fix *anything*  If you take your car to 10 different shops and they can’t fix it, where do you end up? The dealer. Sorry, but it costs a lot of money for training, equipment, overhead, etc to be able to repair vehicles at the dealer level. I had a customer spend over $800 dollars at independent shops on O2 sensor, MAF sensor, crank angle sensor, etc, etc, on his 2001 Taurus that he NEVER NEEDED!.

I’m sure this is true, but don’t overlook that your fellow dealer service writers have tried more than once to sell me repairs I didn’t need. [...]   What you really pay for is knowledge. Time is just a convenient way to attach a certain dollar amount to the amount of skill and knowledge it will take to repair something. If you want to pay $25/hour for labor, then you’ll get what you pay for.

I don’t disagree.  I love it when people I know want me to come fix their computers, and then volunteer "I’ll pay you".  Every single time, I tell them, "You can’t afford me".  I fix the computers for the people that I care about and I refer the others to a reputable repair shop. Dana

Response:

  Gosh, when I looked, I found a TSB that explained that Ford had installed *the wrong rotors* at the factory.  You think the dealer volunteered this?  Nope.  They offered a $300 brake job *I didn’t need*.

Let me clarify – I didn’t need a $300 brake job. I needed the rotors replaced under warranty for $0. Dana

Response:

Question:

comments? I did–I figure there is an electronic record of every transaction, and I would not want to get audited and have to pay the penalties. Has nothing to do with feeling that people should be "fair and honest," but more to do with fear and loathing of the IRS.

I have a net loss with my e-bay transactions. Can I use that? -Bob

Response:

<snip I have a net loss with my e-bay transactions. Can I use that? -Bob

Simple answer is maybe.  If you’re buying merchandise to sell on eBay and lost money at it you can deduct it by ending up with a loss on schedule C (could be in a different place depending on the form of business you use, it would be a schedule C if you don’t form a separate business entity).  If you collect widgets, bought a bunch of them back when the widget market was hot, and sold off part of your collection at a loss to make room for new widgets, you’re in a different situation. You might still end up with a deduction, but it gets a lot more complicated. Keep in mind that having less money than you started with doesn’t mean you lost money.  If you bought $500 in merchandise, sold $100 worth for $200, haven’t sold the rest yet, and had $100 worth of expenses, even though you’re in the hole for $400 you haven’t lost money from a tax standpoint.   Richard Ward

Response:

ey.  If you bought $500 in merchandise, sold $100 worth for $200, haven’t sold the rest yet, and had $100 worth of expenses, even though you’re in the hole for $400 you haven’t lost money from a tax standpoint.   Richard Ward

Richard they changed the tax laws a few years ago where a small business could write off, when purchased, mdse for resale In your example, the guy has a $300 loss for the year – when he sells the rest of the mdse it is all profit I think 1 reason the IRS made that change  was that so many small business guys were not keeping inventory records to begin with – they just showed the same beginning and ending inventory every year thus effectively charging purchases to expense. John

Response:

comments? I did–I figure there is an electronic record of every transaction, and I would not want to get audited and have to pay the penalties. Has nothing to do with feeling that people should be "fair and honest," but more to do with fear and loathing of the IRS. I have a net loss with my e-bay transactions. Can I use that? -Bob

    Of course!   You can claim a business LOSS at least two years     out of five, but you’d better have the documentation. Kris

Response:

comments?

I did. I would much rather report my profits from eBay than lose the opportunity to make more money on eBay. Not to mention it’s the right thing to do. In my state, we have to report items purchased over the Internet and pay state sales taxes on them (if sales taxes have not already been paid).  Did you report those (if you have them)?  I did.

Response:

Not giving tax advice, but I think under the circumstances, the IRS would be happy that you’re reporting any profit.  I would think if you made a good-faith effort to ghuess at your original cost, it would be OK.

Of course, they’d be happy because you’d probably be one of a handful. I’m wondering, does the IRS go after every one who puts a WantAd in the newspaper to sell something to see if they’re making a profit? To comply with the tax laws, you report income.

Response:

Not giving tax advice, but I think under the circumstances, the IRS would be happy that you’re reporting any profit.  I would think if you made a good-faith effort to ghuess at your original cost, it would be OK. Of course, they’d be happy because you’d probably be one of a handful. I’m wondering, does the IRS go after every one who puts a WantAd in the newspaper to sell something to see if they’re making a profit? To comply with the tax laws, you report income.

You certainly do, and I would not suggest trying to avoid that.  I’m simply saying that in this case, a good faith effort at determining original cost of something that was never intended to be resold should be adequate. After all, even when a taxable estate is settled, they don’t expect to see receipts for something bought 20-30 years ago, just a reasonable estimate of what it’s worth used. — "Thus the metric system did not really catch on in the States, unless you count the increasing popularity of the nine-millimeter bullet."- Dave Barry

Response:

(Joe) said: Not giving tax advice, but I think under the circumstances, the IRS would be happy that you’re reporting any profit.  I would think if you made a good-faith effort to ghuess at your original cost, it would be OK. Of course, they’d be happy because you’d probably be one of a handful. I’m wondering, does the IRS go after every one who puts a WantAd in the newspaper to sell something to see if they’re making a profit? To comply with the tax laws, you report income.

But not all money coming in *is* income.  For example, when you receive an insurance payout, that isn’t income. In most cases, when you sell personal belongings, the proceeds aren’t income.  If it WAS, everyone would keep track of every thing they ever purchased and then everytime they sold something, report the sale, as well as the "cost basis" and declare it as a loss (because almost everything you sell you will sell for *less* than you originally paid for it). One legal accounting trick often used by small businesses is to buy a business asset (like a vehicle), depreciate it and take the depreciation off of business income each year.  Then when the item gets old (and often fully depreciated), convert the asset to a "personal asset", and then later sell it as a personal item, not a business item.  The proceeds of a sale of a used personal item is generally not considered "income", so this money does not need to be accounted for on the 1040. Note:  IANAL, IANACPA, etc.  This is just what I have been told by those who are, over the years.  For legal or tax advice, you should ask your lawyer or tax professional. jc

Response:

Yes, I report all my ebay income, but it does bring up an interesting problem I have.  I sell collectible comics which I originally purchased twenty or thirty years ago.  In order to accurately report my income, I need to figure out what I originally spent when I bought these comics. Back then, I didn’t keep records of my expenditures, so I need to have a mechanism for estimating my original purchase prices.  Does anyone else have this problem?

Not giving tax advice, but I think under the circumstances, the IRS would be happy that you’re reporting any profit.  I would think if you made a good-faith effort to ghuess at your original cost, it would be OK. Keep in mind that there are expenses involved, which include not only ebaY fees and PayPal charges, but shipping supplies, postage, etc, and that also includes the mileage you drove getting the books, admissions you paid to shows, and all that. An accountant can tell you the technicalities of what’s involved, which might even include an original cost of zero, since you didn’t buy them with intent to resell, but unless you’re doing this on some major scale, I suspect the IRS is as interested in your profits as they are in most yard sale income. — "Thus the metric system did not really catch on in the States, unless you count the increasing popularity of the nine-millimeter bullet."- Dave Barry

Response:

Actually, that’s exactly what I did!  I bought an old Overstreet Guide from 1979 on ebay and I use that to estimate my cost basis.  It’s not a perfect way of estimating, but it’s the best I can do

You can’t go wrong using Overstreet  -  I doubt if 10 books a year are sold at the value they put on them  -  and, of course, they were all in "mint" condition which adds to the Overstreet NM value John

Response:

"Rick"  wrote I did buy from collectors.  That is the issue.  I don’t have records of how much I bought them for 20+ years ago so I have to estimate.

Estimate…and have a friend write the receipt for you (their handwriting, not yours.  ;)) You could get Overstreets from that time period, probably at a library, (or from some other collector who has copies…if you don’t have them yourself) and estimate the purchase prices of your stuff based on the book price at the time of purchase. a. linklurker

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Rick"  wrote I did buy from collectors.  That is the issue.  I don’t have records of how much I bought them for 20+ years ago so I have to estimate. Estimate…and have a friend write the receipt for you (their handwriting, not yours.  ;)) You could get Overstreets from that time period, probably at a library, (or from some other collector who has copies…if you don’t have them yourself) and estimate the purchase prices of your stuff based on the book price at the time of purchase. a. linklurker

Actually, that’s exactly what I did!  I bought an old Overstreet Guide from 1979 on ebay and I use that to estimate my cost basis.  It’s not a perfect way of estimating, but it’s the best I can do.

Response:

comments?

Yes, I report all my ebay income, but it does bring up an interesting problem I have.  I sell collectible comics which I originally purchased twenty or thirty years ago.  In order to accurately report my income, I need to figure out what I originally spent when I bought these comics.  Back then, I didn’t keep records of my expenditures, so I need to have a mechanism for estimating my original purchase prices.  Does anyone else have this problem?

Response:

"Rick" wrote In order to accurately report my income, I need to figure out what I originally spent when I bought these comics.  Back then, I didn’t keep records of my expenditures, so I need to have a mechanism for estimating my original purchase prices.  Does anyone else have this problem?

The price of the comic is on the cover of the old comics…unless you bought them from a collector/s. a. linklurker

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Rick" wrote In order to accurately report my income, I need to figure out what I originally spent when I bought these comics.  Back then, I didn’t keep records of my expenditures, so I need to have a mechanism for estimating my original purchase prices.  Does anyone else have this problem? The price of the comic is on the cover of the old comics…unless you bought them from a collector/s. a. linklurker

I did buy from collectors.  That is the issue.  I don’t have records of how much I bought them for 20+ years ago so I have to estimate.

Response:

comments?

I have run a small home-based business since 1990, involving selling at antique shows and online.   I report every cent of income to the IRS, and I take advantage of their many business deductions. Kris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – comments? I did–I figure there is an electronic record of every transaction, and I would not want to get audited and have to pay the penalties. Has nothing to do with feeling that people should be "fair and honest," but more to do with fear and loathing of the IRS.

exactly. robert

Response:

comments?

Response:

comments?

Are you talking to yourself? To whom or what are you replying?

Response:

Question:

I’ll pass this to everyone in my address book, Colin, and thanks. Thanks, Liz. Something tells me that we little guys are going to have to drag our sorry little beaten-down butts into the streets before those chickenshit stuffed shirts pig-out one moneyfest too many, and wreck this whole damn beautiful Democracy. What a Crime. Terrorism From Within.

God don’t get me started. OOPS!  Too late! The Bush administration is nothing short of a coup. Plain and simple. They corrupted everything this country was ever meant to stand for, everything people in third world nations dream about as they die in ships holds and in the backs of vans or crossing rivers with their children to get here.  They stole the office, bought the Supreme Court and if they had nothing to do with the Twin Towers, I’ll eat some odious person’s shorts.  Our government is every bit as corrupt as a Husseins, or bin Ladens dream government would be, and our freedoms transitory and saleable. The Bush family makes the Corleones look like the Waltons.  End of it. The only hope is to get rid of Bushes Senior and Junior.  I leave it to other people to figure out how.  I support however it happens. In any case, the American Democracy is dead and nothing short of a revolution in the streets will bring it back. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –          Colin

Response:

Well, they are making quite a big deal outta making sure that we the people know that they ostentatiously refused to assist enron when it was falling apart.  I think that may backfire on them a bit when the employees who lost everything realize that the government coulda saved their bacon but chose not to. It’s six of one, half a dozen of the other.   The world protests our  treatment of murderers at guantanamo and the white house gets louder about enron. And for the record, the murderers at guantanamo are quite fortunate that I am not in charge.  Because they would be being forcefed pickled pigs feet and I would have some pals in the industry work up some arabic newspapers with screaming headlines about crazed americans who took over EgyptAir and crashed four planes into mecca which I would accidentally on purpose leave lying around within reach.

: Works for me.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Think : any hearings or jail time will come while Bush is in office? :

: : Agreed.  I think all executives who sold their stocks while : refusing employees the same privilege should have their bank : accounts FROZEN.  And those of their families. : : : It’s not enough. : : : : : : Just got a bulletin over MSNBC…Ken Lay has resigned. : : : : What a shock. : : : : : I’ll pass this to everyonein my address book, Colin, : and : : thanks. : : : : : : : : : Hey guys. I am seeing red, I am so pissed. Enron not : : only did not pay : : : any taxes, but *still* has it’s hand out for AMT : relief : : from the : : : government, a retroactive  $365,000,000.00 that : George : : is urging be : : : paid out. This is the company that pasted California : : last year. : : : They have got to be held accountable. : : : : : : The full story is finally coming out. : : : Enron gamed the energy markets, brought California : to : : its knees, : : : invaded our political system, and stole from its own : : employees : : : and stockholders.  These same "corporate leaders" : have : : been : : : intimately involved in policymaking in the Bush : : administration, : : : but the White House has refused to release : information : : about : : : who and how. : : : : : : Enron is not a tale of accounting errors.  It is a : story : : of the : : : powerful few buying their way into the Texas : governor’s : : mansion and : : : the White House and using their access for their : sole : : advantage at the : : : expense of employees, stockholders, consumers and : : taxpayers. : : : This is a tale of corporate greed and corruption : aided : : and abetted : : : by "public servants." : : : : : : Vice President Cheney and the White House are still : : refusing to : : : release any information about the meetings they : held, : : who they met : : : with, and how they developed their proposals. They : : claim they have : : : nothing to hide.  But why then did they say that : they : : never met with : : : Enron, only later to admit that Cheney met with : Enron : : CEO Lay once : : : and his staff met with Enron executives six times? : : : : : : The White House and Enron have a great deal of : : explaining to do, and : : : we need to be sure that happens.  Leave an e-mail : : petition at : : : : : :    http://www.moveon.org/levelwithus/ : : : : : : The White House press secretary, Ari Fleischer, told : : reporters, : : : "I really think the public does not share the : judgment : : : that there is somehow some political malfeasance : here." : : : (NY Times 1/18/02, Congress Rebuffed on Energy : : Documents). : : :                      Can you believe it? : : :                               Colin : : : : : : They must think we’re fools. : : : : : : Thanks for your help. : : : : : : -Wes Boyd : : :  MoveOn.org : : :  January 23, 2002 : : : : : : PS: Our website includes links to several good : articles : : that document : : : the extent of the White House – Enron connections. : : : : : : Here are some key facts: : : : : : : * Enron has been President Bush’s #1 financial : backer : : over his career: : : :   Enron and affiliates gave more than $110,000 to : the : : Bush/Cheney : : :   election campaign, and $300,000 to the Bush/Cheney : : inaugural fund. : : : : : : * Enron and its executives spent more than $2.4 : million : : supporting : : :   various candidates and parties in the 1999-2000 : : elections.  The vast : : : : : :   majority of these contributions went to Republican : : candidates and : : :   the GOP (see our website for sources). : : : : : : * Marc Racicot, the new chairman of the Republican : : National Committee, : : :   planned to continue drawing a seven-figure salary : : partly as an Enron : : :   lobbyist.  He now says he won’t lobby but he will : : still receive that : : :   salary from his law firm. : : : : : : * Enron participated in secret meetings of the : Cheney : : task force : : :   which crafted a national energy strategy and the : White : : House has : : :   refused to turn over records of these meetings. : : : : : : * That energy plan includes tens of billions in : taxpayer : : subsidies to : : :   the energy industry.  It would also open the : Arctic to : : oil drilling, : : :   but not substantially increase car mileage or : energy : : efficiency. : : :   The House has approved it; Bush is pushing the : Senate : : to do the : : : same. : : : : : : * Last summer, Enron and other companies manipulated : the : : California : : :   energy market, costing taxpayers and consumers : : billions.  Enron was : : : a : : :   key player in lobbying for the California : deregulation : : plan. : : : : : : * Enron stands to gain $254 million in rebates of : back : : taxes under the : : :   "stimulus" bill President Bush supports.  The : House : : has already : : :   passed it, and Bush is now leaning hard on the : Senate : : to follow : : : suit. : : : : : : * Senior Enron executives allegedly made millions : : selling their stock : : :   at high prices, collectively walking off with $1.1 : : BILLION, yet : : :   prevented rank-and-file workers from selling : theirs, : : causing many : : :   employees to lose their life savings. : : : : : : * America’s top law enforcement official, Attorney : : General John : : :   Ashcroft, has recused himself from investigating : Enron : : because of : : : his : : :   own connections to the bankrupt company. : : : : : : Here’s a good summary by Richard Cohen in the : Washington : : Post (Jan : : : 15): : : : : : : "The fact remains that these guys — these pals of : Bush : : and Cheney and : : : others in the administration — made money off a : shell : : game.  They : : : sold : : : stock backed by smoke.  They cashed out, but when : their : : employees : : : tried : : : doing the same thing, they blocked them.  The stock : went : : from $85 a : : : share to 68 cents and the employees lost : everything — : : their savings, : : : their pensions, their dreams of a comfy retirement : with : : maybe a little : : : boat on the lake.  The big shots got the boat. : Their : : employees got : : : the : : : lake.  They can go jump in it." : : : : : : Join our call for accountability at: : : : : : :    http://www.moveon.org/levelwithus/ : : : : : : Thank you. : : : This is a message from MoveOn.org : : : If you wish to remove yourself from this list, : please : : visit : : : our subscription management page at : : : : : : http://www.moveon.org/subscrip/i.html?id=369-138845-hcAw62YA : : FpSZRwkcxF2Fug : : : : : :

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – God don’t get me started. OOPS!  Too late! The Bush administration is nothing short of a coup. Plain and simple. They corrupted everything this country was ever meant to stand for, everything people in third world nations dream about as they die in ships holds and in the backs of vans or crossing rivers with their children to get here.  They stole the office, bought the Supreme Court and if they had nothing to do with the Twin Towers, I’ll eat some odious person’s shorts.  Our government is every bit as corrupt as a Husseins, or bin Ladens dream government would be, and our freedoms transitory and saleable. The Bush family makes the Corleones look like the Waltons.  End of it. The only hope is to get rid of Bushes Senior and Junior.  I leave it to other people to figure out how.  I support however it happens. In any case, the American Democracy is dead and nothing short of a revolution in the streets will bring it back. Glory be, Liz. Political passion. I think this country needs to look at our definition of success.

I’d settle for the country just *looking, Colin.   It seems to be Greed. We are better than this.

You’d have hoped so, wouldn’t you?  But the ‘leaders’, those who represent each of us, weren’t.  And what good is a country if it’s leaders are corrupt?  What freedom is there left in America if *everything is for sale, if the people who died as a result of the Twin Towers thing were just expendable extras, part of the cost of buying yourself a Presidency?  If that, Enron, etc, etc has happened, do you believe for a minute any one of us out here are safe, are free?  When the SS can show up at your door because you exercised your right to free speech and your right to speak out against your political leaders on a web site, when they can destroy our right to privacy using 9-11 as their excuse…lord. If we have to produce a card proving we are a citizen, are who we say we are, etc just to see a movie, how free is that? I don’t want my kids having to carry cards,  little pieces of plastic easily stolen, which carry every possible identifying etc about  them some loony tune could get hold of and use to snatch them somehow. I don’t *want the guy at the movies to know that my checking account is overdrawn.   What about those of us who may choose not to carry them? Would we be refused entry at the local cineplex, then? With a national database, what will be tracked is every magazine we buy, every movie we see, the kids of foods we eat, the brands of toothpaste we buy. How long before all that is sold to marketers? How long before they start red flagging those of us who eat tabouli a lot? Before the insurance companies hear about all the ice cream we eat and the little exercise equipment and vitamins we buy? Before a prospective employer can take a look at how many issues of Juggs you bought in the last twelve months? Anyone who believes this is not an invasion of our privacy is deliberately, willfully blind. Anyone who thinks that info won’t be stolen and sold is dangerously naive. Anyone who thinks that these cards will protect us or prevent another series of attacks is not using their brain. Say they decide only certain people have to carry the cards. Ok. WHICH people?  Well, people who are likely to be terrorists or terrorist sympathizers, of course.  Ok…who? Citizens or non-citizens? People with Middle Eastern last names?  People who speak Arabic? People with Middle Eastern friends? Who? People who eat a lot of tabouli? How do they *know you eat a lot of tabouli? You let them vote in legislation that tracks how many boxes you bought, that’s how. How far back in your ancestry do they go to decide if you are of Middle Eastern descent? One generation? Two? Three? Does this include Middle Easterners who have been in this country for generations? American Muslims? Who? Why not, to save time and trouble, just round up everyone with dark hair and eyes and send them to Australia? That would save those of us decent citizens (read: White) from being bothered by any of this, wouldn’t it? Get rid of it all with one fell swoop. Maybe we should just kick all people of Middle Eastern ethnicity out of our flight schools? Our medical schools? Our colleges? Why not deny them things like medical insurance, medi-cal, welfare? What do we care, us decent white Americans? WE aren’t terrorists? No…let’s not argue about our bombs and covert ops fought from safe distances. We’ll leave that discussion for another time, as well as how corrupt our government has become or the way our religious ‘leaders’ sound every INCH as whacked and zealous as the nuts who hit the Towers. But don’t forget…we said ‘terrorist sympathizers’. That could mean any of you who openly associate with people who could be or might be related to a terrorist. How many of you have Arab or Egyptian friends? Can you prove, if you had to, that you *weren’t discussing how to get anthrax to the White House? Better hope then, if you have an Arab friend, that you don’t subscribe to any medical journals or any crop dusting industry journals (do they have those, btw?). Insane? Beyond the pale? Too ridiculous to believe? You don’t have to go to Germany to see a precedent. Think Japanese interment camps, folks. Think waking Japanese families up in the middle of the night and telling them they have to leave, even if they have never been any more than solid, law abiding citizens. That was us. Couldn’t happen again? Why the fuck not? The same atmosphere that made that possible then…the absolute, mud dumb insistence of Americans that we as a nation were so special that we alone in the global theater should be above terrorist attack (Pearl Harbor) and the same need of the politicians in charge to profit from and reassure the sheep that made those camps possible then is with us now. How far a step do you *really believe it is from a card in your pocket to a knock on your door? Tell ya what…ask my friend in Maryland who started a web site devoted to what he felt was the occupation of the White House illegally by Bush. The knock he got was the Secret Service demanding his computer and medical records. Don’t be naive, don’t be stupid. Our government no longer has anything more to do with the good of the public it was intended to serve than the feel good look good crap designed to keep people quiet and complacent. Crap like these cards. I warned you not to get me started  *g* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –          Colin

Response:

x-no-archive: yes

this jumped out at me: Life sucks sometimes because people are lousy and we let them be.

Yes.  and No. If you mean that "it’s the voters’ fault because they did not devote their every waking moment to gathering information and forming pressure groups, etc. etc. etc." i see that as more tedious blaming. but if you mean, "let’s get real, people.  let’s acknowledge and accept that human beings will tend to sink to the lowest common denominator in behavior, and build safeguards against it,"  i would heartily agree with you there. that has been my position about many issues like prisons and school bullying: acknowledge that people tend to act selfishly and proceed from that knowledge. unfortunately, hyper-idealistic people would prefer to believe that everyone is as idealistic as themselves.  and they tend to want to build a new world, and the first steps usually involve dismantling societal protections against others’ lack of idealism. azure

Response:

And for the record, the murderers at guantanamo are quite fortunate that I am not in charge.  Because they would be being forcefed pickled pigs feet and I would have some pals in the industry work up some arabic newspapers with screaming headlines about crazed americans who took over EgyptAir and crashed four planes into mecca which I would accidentally on purpose leave lying around within reach.

hehehehehheheheheh azure

Response:

Perhaps  it will be Bush-a-Gate  but dont’ be surprised if people complaining or doing a media blitz get told they’re un american and pro terrorist not to support the administration in their time of need, by playing the three monkeys – see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. I am too riled-up. This is triggering me like my childhood fury against smug parents. It is all the same, this taking advantage and then turning around and saying, " why are you so upset?" The brazenness is shocking, our response had better not be complacent, "well this is the way it works. . ."

Colin, I have a friend who began a site devoted to what he referred to as the occupation of the White House by Bush and devoted to ousting him.  The Secret Service showed up at his house, demanding his computer and medical records and would not leave until he threatened lawyer. These people are corrupt mafiosos. Liz, the Welsh Wop. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                  Colin

Response:

exactly, Colin.

: : Agreed.  I think all executives who sold their stocks while : refusing employees the same privilege should have their bank : accounts FROZEN.  And those of their families. : : And disbursed to those who lost their life’s savings. :                    Colin

Response:

Colin my pal, perhaps you misunderstand panther cat, she would never do negative stuff like you suggest.Not on purpose! Anyways! take care, she really does! spike ps if your are pissed at those that hurt you….well hey dude, nail them! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps  it will be Bush-a-Gate  but dont’ be surprised if people complaining or doing a media blitz get told they’re un american and pro terrorist not to support the administration in their time of need, by playing the three monkeys – see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. I am too riled-up. This is triggering me like my childhood fury against smug parents. It is all the same, this taking advantage and then turning around and saying, " why are you so upset?" The brazenness is shocking, our response had better not be complacent, "well this is the way it works. . ."                  Colin

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, now . . . wait a minute!  I *know* I heard on the news that the George’s mom lost money with Enron, too . . . I think it was around $8,000. (OK, facetious button off.) Shar BTW . . . it’s = it is. In my apoplectic fury, my cataclysmic rage, my towering seething inferno of pent-up hatred, you. . .you. . .  you chastise my grammar? Oh. Sorry.   Colin

Sorry . . . I had just read your no archive post and was trying to avoid seriousness! Shar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Works for me.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Think any hearings or jail time will come while Bush is in office? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Agreed.  I think all executives who sold their stocks while refusing employees the same privilege should have their bank accounts FROZEN.  And those of their families. : It’s not enough. : : : Just got a bulletin over MSNBC…Ken Lay has resigned. : : What a shock. : : : I’ll pass this to everyonein my address book, Colin, and : thanks. : : : : : : Hey guys. I am seeing red, I am so pissed. Enron not : only did not pay : : any taxes, but *still* has it’s hand out for AMT relief : from the : : government, a retroactive  $365,000,000.00 that George : is urging be : : paid out. This is the company that pasted California : last year. : : They have got to be held accountable. : : : : The full story is finally coming out. : : Enron gamed the energy markets, brought California to : its knees, : : invaded our political system, and stole from its own : employees : : and stockholders.  These same "corporate leaders" have : been : : intimately involved in policymaking in the Bush : administration, : : but the White House has refused to release information : about : : who and how. : : : : Enron is not a tale of accounting errors.  It is a story : of the : : powerful few buying their way into the Texas governor’s : mansion and : : the White House and using their access for their sole : advantage at the : : expense of employees, stockholders, consumers and : taxpayers. : : This is a tale of corporate greed and corruption aided : and abetted : : by "public servants." : : : : Vice President Cheney and the White House are still : refusing to : : release any information about the meetings they held, : who they met : : with, and how they developed their proposals.  They : claim they have : : nothing to hide.  But why then did they say that they : never met with : : Enron, only later to admit that Cheney met with Enron : CEO Lay once : : and his staff met with Enron executives six times? : : : : The White House and Enron have a great deal of : explaining to do, and : : we need to be sure that happens.  Leave an e-mail : petition at : : : :    http://www.moveon.org/levelwithus/ : : : : The White House press secretary, Ari Fleischer, told : reporters, : : "I really think the public does not share the judgment : : that there is somehow some political malfeasance here." : : (NY Times 1/18/02, Congress Rebuffed on Energy : Documents). : :                      Can you believe it? : :                               Colin : : : : They must think we’re fools. : : : : Thanks for your help. : : : : -Wes Boyd : :  MoveOn.org : :  January 23, 2002 : : : : PS: Our website includes links to several good articles : that document : : the extent of the White House – Enron connections. : : : : Here are some key facts: : : : : * Enron has been President Bush’s #1 financial backer : over his career: : :   Enron and affiliates gave more than $110,000 to the : Bush/Cheney : :   election campaign, and $300,000 to the Bush/Cheney : inaugural fund. : : : : * Enron and its executives spent more than $2.4 million : supporting : :   various candidates and parties in the 1999-2000 : elections.  The vast : : : :   majority of these contributions went to Republican : candidates and : :   the GOP (see our website for sources). : : : : * Marc Racicot, the new chairman of the Republican : National Committee, : :   planned to continue drawing a seven-figure salary : partly as an Enron : :   lobbyist.  He now says he won’t lobby but he will : still receive that : :   salary from his law firm. : : : : * Enron participated in secret meetings of the Cheney : task force : :   which crafted a national energy strategy and the White : House has : :   refused to turn over records of these meetings. : : : : * That energy plan includes tens of billions in taxpayer : subsidies to : :   the energy industry.  It would also open the Arctic to : oil drilling, : :   but not substantially increase car mileage or energy : efficiency. : :   The House has approved it; Bush is pushing the Senate : to do the : : same. : : : : * Last summer, Enron and other companies manipulated the : California : :   energy market, costing taxpayers and consumers : billions.  Enron was : : a : :   key player in lobbying for the California deregulation : plan. : : : : * Enron stands to gain $254 million in rebates of back : taxes under the : :   "stimulus" bill President Bush supports.  The House : has already : :   passed it, and Bush is now leaning hard on the Senate : to follow : : suit. : : : : * Senior Enron executives allegedly made millions : selling their stock : :   at high prices, collectively walking off with $1.1 : BILLION, yet : :   prevented rank-and-file workers from selling theirs, : causing many : :   employees to lose their life savings. : : : : * America’s top law enforcement official, Attorney : General John : :   Ashcroft, has recused himself from investigating Enron : because of : : his : :   own connections to the bankrupt company. : : : : Here’s a good summary by Richard Cohen in the Washington : Post (Jan : : 15): : : : : "The fact remains that these guys — these pals of Bush : and Cheney and : : others in the administration — made money off a shell : game.  They : : sold : : stock backed by smoke.  They cashed out, but when their : employees : : tried : : doing the same thing, they blocked them.  The stock went : from $85 a : : share to 68 cents and the employees lost everything — : their savings, : : their pensions, their dreams of a comfy retirement with : maybe a little : : boat on the lake.  The big shots got the boat. Their : employees got : : the : : lake.  They can go jump in it." : : : : Join our call for accountability at: : : : :    http://www.moveon.org/levelwithus/ : : : : Thank you. : : This is a message from MoveOn.org : : If you wish to remove yourself from this list, please : visit : : our subscription management page at : : : http://www.moveon.org/subscrip/i.html?id=369-138845-hcAw62YA : FpSZRwkcxF2Fug : : :

Response:

Hey, now . . . wait a minute!  I *know* I heard on the news that the George’s mom lost money with Enron, too . . . I think it was around $8,000. (OK, facetious button off.) Shar BTW . . . it’s = it is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey guys. I am seeing red, I am so pissed. Enron not only did not pay any taxes, but *still* has it’s hand out for AMT relief from the government, a retroactive  $365,000,000.00 that George is urging be paid out. This is the company that pasted California last year. They have got to be held accountable. The full story is finally coming out. Enron gamed the energy markets, brought California to its knees, invaded our political system, and stole from its own employees and stockholders.  These same "corporate leaders" have been intimately involved in policymaking in the Bush administration, but the White House has refused to release information about who and how. Enron is not a tale of accounting errors.  It is a story of the powerful few buying their way into the Texas governor’s mansion and the White House and using their access for their sole advantage at the expense of employees, stockholders, consumers and taxpayers. This is a tale of corporate greed and corruption aided and abetted by "public servants." Vice President Cheney and the White House are still refusing to release any information about the meetings they held, who they met with, and how they developed their proposals.  They claim they have nothing to hide.  But why then did they say that they never met with Enron, only later to admit that Cheney met with Enron CEO Lay once and his staff met with Enron executives six times? The White House and Enron have a great deal of explaining to do, and we need to be sure that happens.  Leave an e-mail petition at    http://www.moveon.org/levelwithus/ The White House press secretary, Ari Fleischer, told reporters, "I really think the public does not share the judgment that there is somehow some political malfeasance here." (NY Times 1/18/02, Congress Rebuffed on Energy Documents).                      Can you believe it?                               Colin They must think we’re fools. Thanks for your help. -Wes Boyd  MoveOn.org  January 23, 2002 PS: Our website includes links to several good articles that document the extent of the White House – Enron connections. Here are some key facts: * Enron has been President Bush’s #1 financial backer over his career:   Enron and affiliates gave more than $110,000 to the Bush/Cheney   election campaign, and $300,000 to the Bush/Cheney inaugural fund. * Enron and its executives spent more than $2.4 million supporting   various candidates and parties in the 1999-2000 elections.  The vast   majority of these contributions went to Republican candidates and   the GOP (see our website for sources). * Marc Racicot, the new chairman of the Republican National Committee,   planned to continue drawing a seven-figure salary partly as an Enron   lobbyist.  He now says he won’t lobby but he will still receive that   salary from his law firm. * Enron participated in secret meetings of the Cheney task force   which crafted a national energy strategy and the White House has   refused to turn over records of these meetings. * That energy plan includes tens of billions in taxpayer subsidies to   the energy industry.  It would also open the Arctic to oil drilling,   but not substantially increase car mileage or energy efficiency.   The House has approved it; Bush is pushing the Senate to do the same. * Last summer, Enron and other companies manipulated the California   energy market, costing taxpayers and consumers billions.  Enron was a   key player in lobbying for the California deregulation plan. * Enron stands to gain $254 million in rebates of back taxes under the   "stimulus" bill President Bush supports.  The House has already   passed it, and Bush is now leaning hard on the Senate to follow suit. * Senior Enron executives allegedly made millions selling their stock   at high prices, collectively walking off with $1.1 BILLION, yet   prevented rank-and-file workers from selling theirs, causing many   employees to lose their life savings. * America’s top law enforcement official, Attorney General John   Ashcroft, has recused himself from investigating Enron because of his   own connections to the bankrupt company. Here’s a good summary by Richard Cohen in the Washington Post (Jan 15): "The fact remains that these guys — these pals of Bush and Cheney and others in the administration — made money off a shell game.  They sold stock backed by smoke.  They cashed out, but when their employees tried doing the same thing, they blocked them.  The stock went from $85 a share to 68 cents and the employees lost everything — their savings, their pensions, their dreams of a comfy retirement with maybe a little boat on the lake.  The big shots got the boat.  Their employees got the lake.  They can go jump in it." Join our call for accountability at:    http://www.moveon.org/levelwithus/ Thank you. This is a message from MoveOn.org If you wish to remove yourself from this list, please visit our subscription management page at http://www.moveon.org/subscrip/i.html?id=369-138845-hcAw62YAFpSZRwkcx…

Response:

Just got a bulletin over MSNBC…Ken Lay has resigned. What a shock.

: I’ll pass this to everyonein my address book, Colin, and thanks. :

: : Hey guys. I am seeing red, I am so pissed. Enron not only did not pay : any taxes, but *still* has it’s hand out for AMT relief from the : government, a retroactive  $365,000,000.00 that George is urging be : paid out. This is the company that pasted California last year. : They have got to be held accountable. : : The full story is finally coming out. : Enron gamed the energy markets, brought California to its knees, : invaded our political system, and stole from its own employees : and stockholders.  These same "corporate leaders" have been : intimately involved in policymaking in the Bush administration, : but the White House has refused to release information about : who and how. : : Enron is not a tale of accounting errors.  It is a story of the : powerful few buying their way into the Texas governor’s mansion and : the White House and using their access for their sole advantage at the : expense of employees, stockholders, consumers and taxpayers. : This is a tale of corporate greed and corruption aided and abetted : by "public servants." : : Vice President Cheney and the White House are still refusing to : release any information about the meetings they held, who they met : with, and how they developed their proposals.  They claim they have : nothing to hide.  But why then did they say that they never met with : Enron, only later to admit that Cheney met with Enron CEO Lay once : and his staff met with Enron executives six times? : : The White House and Enron have a great deal of explaining to do, and : we need to be sure that happens.  Leave an e-mail petition at : :    http://www.moveon.org/levelwithus/ : : The White House press secretary, Ari Fleischer, told reporters, : "I really think the public does not share the judgment : that there is somehow some political malfeasance here." : (NY Times 1/18/02, Congress Rebuffed on Energy Documents). :                      Can you believe it? :                               Colin : : They must think we’re fools. : : Thanks for your help. : : -Wes Boyd :  MoveOn.org :  January 23, 2002 : : PS: Our website includes links to several good articles that document : the extent of the White House – Enron connections. : : Here are some key facts: : : * Enron has been President Bush’s #1 financial backer over his career: :   Enron and affiliates gave more than $110,000 to the Bush/Cheney :   election campaign, and $300,000 to the Bush/Cheney inaugural fund. : : * Enron and its executives spent more than $2.4 million supporting :   various candidates and parties in the 1999-2000 elections.  The vast : :   majority of these contributions went to Republican candidates and :   the GOP (see our website for sources). : : * Marc Racicot, the new chairman of the Republican National Committee, :   planned to continue drawing a seven-figure salary partly as an Enron :   lobbyist.  He now says he won’t lobby but he will still receive that :   salary from his law firm. : : * Enron participated in secret meetings of the Cheney task force :   which crafted a national energy strategy and the White House has :   refused to turn over records of these meetings. : : * That energy plan includes tens of billions in taxpayer subsidies to :   the energy industry.  It would also open the Arctic to oil drilling, :   but not substantially increase car mileage or energy efficiency. :   The House has approved it; Bush is pushing the Senate to do the : same. : : * Last summer, Enron and other companies manipulated the California :   energy market, costing taxpayers and consumers billions.  Enron was : a :   key player in lobbying for the California deregulation plan. : : * Enron stands to gain $254 million in rebates of back taxes under the :   "stimulus" bill President Bush supports.  The House has already :   passed it, and Bush is now leaning hard on the Senate to follow : suit. : : * Senior Enron executives allegedly made millions selling their stock :   at high prices, collectively walking off with $1.1 BILLION, yet :   prevented rank-and-file workers from selling theirs, causing many :   employees to lose their life savings. : : * America’s top law enforcement official, Attorney General John :   Ashcroft, has recused himself from investigating Enron because of : his :   own connections to the bankrupt company. : : Here’s a good summary by Richard Cohen in the Washington Post (Jan : 15): : : "The fact remains that these guys — these pals of Bush and Cheney and : others in the administration — made money off a shell game.  They : sold : stock backed by smoke.  They cashed out, but when their employees : tried : doing the same thing, they blocked them.  The stock went from $85 a : share to 68 cents and the employees lost everything — their savings, : their pensions, their dreams of a comfy retirement with maybe a little : boat on the lake.  The big shots got the boat.  Their employees got : the : lake.  They can go jump in it." : : Join our call for accountability at: : :    http://www.moveon.org/levelwithus/ : : Thank you. : This is a message from MoveOn.org : If you wish to remove yourself from this list, please visit : our subscription management page at : http://www.moveon.org/subscrip/i.html?id=369-138845-hcAw62YA FpSZRwkcxF2Fug :

Response:

Agreed.  I think all executives who sold their stocks while refusing employees the same privilege should have their bank accounts FROZEN.  And those of their families.

: It’s not enough. :

: : Just got a bulletin over MSNBC…Ken Lay has resigned. : : What a shock. : : : I’ll pass this to everyonein my address book, Colin, and : thanks. : : : : : : Hey guys. I am seeing red, I am so pissed. Enron not : only did not pay : : any taxes, but *still* has it’s hand out for AMT relief : from the : : government, a retroactive  $365,000,000.00 that George : is urging be : : paid out. This is the company that pasted California : last year. : : They have got to be held accountable. : : : : The full story is finally coming out. : : Enron gamed the energy markets, brought California to : its knees, : : invaded our political system, and stole from its own : employees : : and stockholders.  These same "corporate leaders" have : been : : intimately involved in policymaking in the Bush : administration, : : but the White House has refused to release information : about : : who and how. : : : : Enron is not a tale of accounting errors.  It is a story : of the : : powerful few buying their way into the Texas governor’s : mansion and : : the White House and using their access for their sole : advantage at the : : expense of employees, stockholders, consumers and : taxpayers. : : This is a tale of corporate greed and corruption aided : and abetted : : by "public servants." : : : : Vice President Cheney and the White House are still : refusing to : : release any information about the meetings they held, : who they met : : with, and how they developed their proposals.  They : claim they have : : nothing to hide.  But why then did they say that they : never met with : : Enron, only later to admit that Cheney met with Enron : CEO Lay once : : and his staff met with Enron executives six times? : : : : The White House and Enron have a great deal of : explaining to do, and : : we need to be sure that happens.  Leave an e-mail : petition at : : : :    http://www.moveon.org/levelwithus/ : : : : The White House press secretary, Ari Fleischer, told : reporters, : : "I really think the public does not share the judgment : : that there is somehow some political malfeasance here." : : (NY Times 1/18/02, Congress Rebuffed on Energy : Documents). : :                      Can you believe it? : :                               Colin : : : : They must think we’re fools. : : : : Thanks for your help. : : : : -Wes Boyd : :  MoveOn.org : :  January 23, 2002 : : : : PS: Our website includes links to several good articles : that document : : the extent of the White House – Enron connections. : : : : Here are some key facts: : : : : * Enron has been President Bush’s #1 financial backer : over his career: : :   Enron and affiliates gave more than $110,000 to the : Bush/Cheney : :   election campaign, and $300,000 to the Bush/Cheney : inaugural fund. : : : : * Enron and its executives spent more than $2.4 million : supporting : :   various candidates and parties in the 1999-2000 : elections.  The vast : : : :   majority of these contributions went to Republican : candidates and : :   the GOP (see our website for sources). : : : : * Marc Racicot, the new chairman of the Republican : National Committee, : :   planned to continue drawing a seven-figure salary : partly as an Enron : :   lobbyist.  He now says he won’t lobby but he will : still receive that : :   salary from his law firm. : : : : * Enron participated in secret meetings of the Cheney : task force : :   which crafted a national energy strategy and the White : House has : :   refused to turn over records of these meetings. : : : : * That energy plan includes tens of billions in taxpayer : subsidies to : :   the energy industry.  It would also open the Arctic to : oil drilling, : :   but not substantially increase car mileage or energy : efficiency. : :   The House has approved it; Bush is pushing the Senate : to do the : : same. : : : : * Last summer, Enron and other companies manipulated the : California : :   energy market, costing taxpayers and consumers : billions.  Enron was : : a : :   key player in lobbying for the California deregulation : plan. : : : : * Enron stands to gain $254 million in rebates of back : taxes under the : :   "stimulus" bill President Bush supports.  The House : has already : :   passed it, and Bush is now leaning hard on the Senate : to follow : : suit. : : : : * Senior Enron executives allegedly made millions : selling their stock : :   at high prices, collectively walking off with $1.1 : BILLION, yet : :   prevented rank-and-file workers from selling theirs, : causing many : :   employees to lose their life savings. : : : : * America’s top law enforcement official, Attorney : General John : :   Ashcroft, has recused himself from investigating Enron : because of : : his : :   own connections to the bankrupt company. : : : : Here’s a good summary by Richard Cohen in the Washington : Post (Jan : : 15): : : : : "The fact remains that these guys — these pals of Bush : and Cheney and : : others in the administration — made money off a shell : game.  They : : sold : : stock backed by smoke.  They cashed out, but when their : employees : : tried : : doing the same thing, they blocked them.  The stock went : from $85 a : : share to 68 cents and the employees lost everything — : their savings, : : their pensions, their dreams of a comfy retirement with : maybe a little : : boat on the lake.  The big shots got the boat. Their : employees got : : the : : lake.  They can go jump in it." : : : : Join our call for accountability at: : : : :    http://www.moveon.org/levelwithus/ : : : : Thank you. : : This is a message from MoveOn.org : : If you wish to remove yourself from this list, please : visit : : our subscription management page at : : : http://www.moveon.org/subscrip/i.html?id=369-138845-hcAw62YA : FpSZRwkcxF2Fug : : :

Response:

I’ll pass this to everyonein my address book, Colin, and thanks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey guys. I am seeing red, I am so pissed. Enron not only did not pay any taxes, but *still* has it’s hand out for AMT relief from the government, a retroactive  $365,000,000.00 that George is urging be paid out. This is the company that pasted California last year. They have got to be held accountable. The full story is finally coming out. Enron gamed the energy markets, brought California to its knees, invaded our political system, and stole from its own employees and stockholders.  These same "corporate leaders" have been intimately involved in policymaking in the Bush administration, but the White House has refused to release information about who and how. Enron is not a tale of accounting errors.  It is a story of the powerful few buying their way into the Texas governor

Question:

if you’re hell-bent on doing it – you’ll find the reasons to go the airplane route. but here are some things to keep in mind:    - it’ll be much more expensive than renting an apt.    - chances are you’ll have to leave a car at the dest airport    - you’ll have to be instrument rated to increase your      chances on making the flight on bad weather days    - you really won’t save that much time.      80 miles by road let’s say it’s 1.5 hrs – 2 hrs door to door      by plane (asssuming a few things) time to airport (15 mins) +      pre-flight/taxi (10) + enroute (40 min) + taxi-tiedown (10) +      ride to company (15) = 1.5 hrs. like i said, if you’ve already made up your mind…. b-man

Response:

You haven’t spent much time commuting in Los Angeles have you?  80 miles could take 4hrs. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if you’re hell-bent on doing it – you’ll find the reasons to      80 miles by road let’s say it’s 1.5 hrs – 2 hrs door to door      by plane (asssuming a few things) time to airport (15 mins) +      pre-flight/taxi (10) + enroute (40 min) + taxi-tiedown (10) +      ride to company (15) = 1.5 hrs. like i said, if you’ve already made up your mind…. b-man

Response:

Some good points, but driving is absolutely out of the question. Trust me.  Arguably, my drive requires the absolute most congested route in Los Angeles, and Los Angeles is always named the most traffic congested city of the nation. I’ve done the drive; in fact, did it for several weeks.  Per day, it would take 4.5 hours.  If there’s an accident then all bets are off. Now, mind you, this isn’t just normal hours, this is frustrating, want to kill the person in front of you, smelling car fumes, getting a headache, not a pleasant mood by the end of the trip, hours.  Those kind of hours.  :P  Flying requires concentration, and may be frustrating, but *NOTHING* like being stuck on the 91 freeway. I realize it will be more expensive than an apartment, but I don’t really care.  The point is, I have 2 kids and a wife that I don’t see during the week.  That, to be blunt, sucks. I wrote a bunch more, but then deleted it because I was rambling.  The only thing that I’m hellbent on is getting home every night, and the only way I see doing that is flying.  I’m open to other options, but every other one that I’ve thought of isn’t an option for a variety of reasons (moving, carpooling, train, motorcycle). Any thoughts? r. P.S. I’m actually kind of surprised more people aren’t taking this option and teaming up with other people to defray the cost.

Response:

Well…the real solution is not to have to go everyday… Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some good points, but driving is absolutely out of the question. Trust me.  Arguably, my drive requires the absolute most congested route in Los Angeles, and Los Angeles is always named the most traffic congested city of the nation. I’ve done the drive; in fact, did it for several weeks.  Per day, it would take 4.5 hours.  If there’s an accident then all bets are off. Now, mind you, this isn’t just normal hours, this is frustrating, want to kill the person in front of you, smelling car fumes, getting a headache, not a pleasant mood by the end of the trip, hours.  Those kind of hours.  :P  Flying requires concentration, and may be frustrating, but *NOTHING* like being stuck on the 91 freeway. I realize it will be more expensive than an apartment, but I don’t really care.  The point is, I have 2 kids and a wife that I don’t see during the week.  That, to be blunt, sucks. I wrote a bunch more, but then deleted it because I was rambling.  The only thing that I’m hellbent on is getting home every night, and the only way I see doing that is flying.  I’m open to other options, but every other one that I’ve thought of isn’t an option for a variety of reasons (moving, carpooling, train, motorcycle). Any thoughts? r. P.S. I’m actually kind of surprised more people aren’t taking this option and teaming up with other people to defray the cost.

Response:

Well…the real solution is not to have to go everyday…

That’s true.  You did mention you were a software engineer.  Won’t the company allow you to write code from home and only come in once in a while? But, having said that, one day a week is a good enough excuse to buy a 182. Actually, because you want one and you can afford it is a good enough excuse in my book.  =)

Response:

P.S. I’m actually kind of surprised more people aren’t taking this option and teaming up with other people to defray the cost.

I knew someone who flew from N. of Ft Lauderdale to north of Miami on a daily basis; there were 4 of them. Saved 2+hrs on I95 a day. More recently (~10 years ago) a Telebit [THERE'S an old name] engineer flew in from Sacramento to the Mt. View area. The housing cost differential paid for the a/c inc. running costs; he kept a clunker car at the field. And there was an old rec.aviation regular, an MD who lived on Kent Island and flew into College Park daily. {Anyone here recall the flyin he hosted? Ron Wanttaja gave a talk on Flybaby..} —

Response:

I just tried it for the fun factor for a month and a half from Riverside,CA to Sta. Monica. Door to door 65 sm. 15 miles of side streets. Plane 90 min.  30-42 in air. Truck 90 min. flowing.  120-180mins. traffic. BMW motorcycle purchased three months ago=65 mins. no matter what. 2100 miles a month. Fun factor and living for the excitement just about same on m/c.  Much safer to fly, actually.  Scuff marks on motorcycle hardbags are badges of honor. Boy was I relaxed when flying to work and arriving at work.  Not nearly as much talking to myself. Wx grounded me a day every week and a half. VFR only. I tried to find a small plane but I’m building a four banger instead. I’d go for it!  Have a place to crash, though. mm N174mm reserved

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Greetings! I’m an avid follower of this group and new pilot.  My desire to become a pilot has always been a dream, but really because I wanted to spend time with my family. I currently have an apartment about 80 miles from my home.  I spend work weeks at the apartment, and weekends at my home with my family. I know a lot of guys who would love to spend this much time away from the wife, but I’m not one of them.  :P I’m looking into purchasing an aircraft, and to see if it’s a deductable business expense.  This would allow me to be home every night, and drop the apartment entirely.  I work as a full-time contractor (software engineer) for one company.  The work I perform is through my own closely held California C-Corporation. In reading the AOPA tax guide, it seems that the IRS will challenge anyone that trys to deduct expenses for a plane *IF* there are commercial airplanes available instead.  Well, I’m commuting in the Los Angeles basin, and there’s tons of commercial planes.  However, the cost of flying commercial and owning my own plane is the same. Does the IRS care?  More importantly, are there any other metropolitan pilots who are commuting to work each and every work day that know this is a legitimate deduction? Any insight would be appreciated! r.

Commuting to and from work is never deductable. If you used it to travel from one work location to another work location you might have a case, but the ride to and from work is at your expense. Just like it is for me in my car. — Trevor Fenn To Email me add an extra green to the address above. "Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"                           The Star Spangled Banner                             Francis Scott Key                    

Response:

Again, thanks for the info.  Great stuff! r. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just tried it for the fun factor for a month and a half from Riverside,CA to Sta. Monica. Door to door 65 sm. 15 miles of side streets. Plane 90 min.  30-42 in air. Truck 90 min. flowing.  120-180mins. traffic. BMW motorcycle purchased three months ago=65 mins. no matter what. 2100 miles a month. Fun factor and living for the excitement just about same on m/c.  Much safer to fly, actually.  Scuff marks on motorcycle hardbags are badges of honor. Boy was I relaxed when flying to work and arriving at work.  Not nearly as much talking to myself. Wx grounded me a day every week and a half. VFR only. I tried to find a small plane but I’m building a four banger instead. I’d go for it!  Have a place to crash, though. mm N174mm reserved

Response:

Hi Trevor, Actually, since I work for my own company as a contractor, travel in my car is deductable.  And since the trip is over 80 miles each way, I can actually claim per diem!  :P  If you take a look at the original message, you’ll get a better idea of my situation. Anyway, I’m consulting with a aviation tax lawyer on the issue and post a follow-up for everyone when I have that information. r. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Commuting to and from work is never deductable. If you used it to travel from one work location to another work location you might have a case, but the ride to and from work is at your expense. Just like it is for me in my car.

Response:

Hi Trevor, Actually, since I work for my own company as a contractor, travel in my car is deductable.  And since the trip is over 80 miles each way, I can actually claim per diem!  :P  If you take a look at the original message, you’ll get a better idea of my situation. Anyway, I’m consulting with a aviation tax lawyer on the issue and post a follow-up for everyone when I have that information.

If travel in the car is deductable, travel in the plane is.   I haven’t found any instances where you can deduct one where you can’t deduct the other.

Response:

Greetings! I’m an avid follower of this group and new pilot.  My desire to become a pilot has always been a dream, but really because I wanted to spend time with my family. I currently have an apartment about 80 miles from my home.  I spend work weeks at the apartment, and weekends at my home with my family. I know a lot of guys who would love to spend this much time away from the wife, but I’m not one of them.  :P I’m looking into purchasing an aircraft, and to see if it’s a deductable business expense.  This would allow me to be home every night, and drop the apartment entirely.  I work as a full-time contractor (software engineer) for one company.  The work I perform is through my own closely held California C-Corporation. In reading the AOPA tax guide, it seems that the IRS will challenge anyone that trys to deduct expenses for a plane *IF* there are commercial airplanes available instead.  Well, I’m commuting in the Los Angeles basin, and there’s tons of commercial planes.  However, the cost of flying commercial and owning my own plane is the same. Does the IRS care?  More importantly, are there any other metropolitan pilots who are commuting to work each and every work day that know this is a legitimate deduction? Any insight would be appreciated! r.

Response:

It should be deductible if it is set up right.  If an expense is an "ordinary and necessary" business expense then it is a legitimate deduction, period.   It doesn’t really matter if there are commercial alternatives unless you get really ridiculous (like taking a business trip to Japan via Alaska and Siberia in a Bonanza). Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings! I’m an avid follower of this group and new pilot.  My desire to become a pilot has always been a dream, but really because I wanted to spend time with my family. I currently have an apartment about 80 miles from my home.  I spend work weeks at the apartment, and weekends at my home with my family. I know a lot of guys who would love to spend this much time away from the wife, but I’m not one of them.  :P I’m looking into purchasing an aircraft, and to see if it’s a deductable business expense.  This would allow me to be home every night, and drop the apartment entirely.  I work as a full-time contractor (software engineer) for one company.  The work I perform is through my own closely held California C-Corporation. In reading the AOPA tax guide, it seems that the IRS will challenge anyone that trys to deduct expenses for a plane *IF* there are commercial airplanes available instead.  Well, I’m commuting in the Los Angeles basin, and there’s tons of commercial planes.  However, the cost of flying commercial and owning my own plane is the same. Does the IRS care?  More importantly, are there any other metropolitan pilots who are commuting to work each and every work day that know this is a legitimate deduction? Any insight would be appreciated! r.

Response:

As an accounting major, the general rule is that your commute too and from work is on you…However, if you set up a bona fide home office, then it would be more on the level. For example if you have a company car, the drive to and from work is not deductable, but office to the PO, to the bank, to the client is ok. Thor

Response:

So, since he’s working for himself (i.e. if the ‘corporation’ is based at his home) he can deduct the expenses?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As an accounting major, the general rule is that your commute too and from work is on you…However, if you set up a bona fide home office, then it would be more on the level. For example if you have a company car, the drive to and from work is not deductable, but office to the PO, to the bank, to the client is ok. Thor

Response:

He is not commuting to work, he is traveling to his customer. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As an accounting major, the general rule is that your commute too and from work is on you…However, if you set up a bona fide home office, then it would be more on the level. For example if you have a company car, the drive to and from work is not deductable, but office to the PO, to the bank, to the client is ok. Thor

Response:

The previous message made it sound as if the office, work job etc, was 80 miles away. If a home office is set up and used, and the company is run from there, everything is probably somewhat on the level. Generally you can look it this with a type of litmus test on how much on an impact it will have on income. A/C used for a business other than charter etc, have a 5 yr MACRS life span. You will take the decpreciation, interest expence, fuel, and non major maintaince off of the bottom line each year. New engines etc are depreciated in most cases.  If it does not stand out like a sore thumb, usually you are ok. If it greatly changes the income figures, it will be more likely to be looked at a bit closer. Hope this helps, but as always..take free advice from the net, as just that free! Thor

Response:

Great points everyone! The point on commuting is valid, however, the workplace that I attend daily is over 80 miles from my home.  So currently, the apartment that I rent is deductable and we also take per diem expenses as well. My reasoning is that I’m basically replacing my deductable apartment expenses with deductable aircraft expenses.  Although my figures put the aircraft as being approximately $1200.00 more per month than the apartment expenses. Anyway, I guess it’s pretty clear that I should spend some money on a good aviation tax attorney or CPA and see what they think before I go dropping a ton of money into this!  :) Have a great day! r.

Response:

Question:

I have read the FAQ but am still not 100% sure of people’s motivation for nipple or gentital piercing.  If for visual effect, then I can agree "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and all that.  If, on the other hand, enhanced sexual pleasure is the reason, then count me as interested.  Is there a genuine and significant increase in sexual pleasure from nipple and genital pirecings (I am specifically considering a PA). Thanks for your consideration of my question. Nigel

Response:

hand, enhanced sexual pleasure is the reason, then count me as interested.  Is there a genuine and significant increase in sexual

yes. no, wait: Yes! that’s better.

Response:

I have read the FAQ but am still not 100% sure of people’s motivation for nipple or gentital piercing.  If for visual effect, then I can agree "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and all that.  If, on the other hand, enhanced sexual pleasure is the reason, then count me as interested.  Is there a genuine and significant increase in sexual pleasure from nipple and genital pirecings (I am specifically considering a PA). Thanks for your consideration of my question. Nigel

Pierced nipples are immensely more sensitive, which for a guy is much more Dave.

Response:

S Pierced nipples are immensely more sensitive         that’s not true. it’s a case-by-case basis. don’t ever make sweeping generalizations when talking about human perception. lish 31.6% / 26

Response:

Pierced nipples are immensely more sensitive, which for a guy is much more

Pierced nips can be more sensitive to some people, less to some. Others don’t notice the difference. And a PA can never make up for lost sensitivity! It certainly can add some stimulation but never will replace something else that is lost! Ulf, uncut with a PA

Response:

I have read the FAQ but am still not 100% sure of people’s motivation for nipple or gentital piercing.  <snip

D Pierced nipples are immensely more sensitive, which for a guy is much more D fun, and a PA makes up for the sensitivity lost due to Dave.

First, let’s not confuse motivation with outcome. And second, not everyone’s outcome is the same. My nipples are larger now, and that is about it. Is Mr. Dave speaking from personal experience? Kavin

Response:

Funny. Since I got cirumcised I feel my sensitivity/erogeneity heightened. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read the FAQ but am still not 100% sure of people’s motivation for nipple or gentital piercing.  If for visual effect, then I can agree "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and all that.  If, on the other hand, enhanced sexual pleasure is the reason, then count me as interested.  Is there a genuine and significant increase in sexual pleasure from nipple and genital pirecings (I am specifically considering a PA). Thanks for your consideration of my question. Nigel Pierced nipples are immensely more sensitive, which for a guy is much more Dave.

Response:

Funny. Since I got cirumcised I feel my sensitivity/erogeneity heightened.

That is only temporary, and eventually your skin will get thicker and less sensitive.  There’s no accounting for psychological eroticism, however, and you may always perceive sensitivity as being greater now that you’re circ’d… — A different Dave

Response:

Pierced nipples are immensely more sensitive, which for a guy is much more

Ummm…since you were probably circumcised at birth, exactly HOW would you knowo you’d lost ANY sensitivity? TQ

Response:

It’s already ten years and I stand by what I say. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Funny. Since I got cirumcised I feel my sensitivity/erogeneity heightened. That is only temporary, and eventually your skin will get thicker and less sensitive.  There’s no accounting for psychological eroticism, however, and you may always perceive sensitivity as being greater now that you’re circ’d… — A different Dave

Response:

I have read the FAQ but am still not 100% sure of people’s motivation for nipple or gentital piercing.  If for visual effe

–snip– I hve a nipple and a pa  the nipple is about 3-4 yrs old.. the pa about a year and a half.. I am a failry outworldly straight laced person.. i am 46 i had the nipple done cause i could.. once i did it i felt a "freedom" of self that is extremely hard to even discribe. I read about a pa.. and i get more enjoyment in "giving" then receaving. I have "lost" the enjoyment of cuming in a ladys mouth cause i get fairly physical when i cum. i have lost the "maleness" of standing at a toilet and "aiming"   now i still mostly sit down.. I have a 6 gage cbr thats abut a 3/4 inch .. i think its "cool".. and it helps me get to those special "spots" in my ladys life.. she is STILL afraid of it catching and says it "hurts" occ.. and i can forget ALL hope of a nice ass-fuck… but would i change it…. NOPE…

Response:

I dOn’t knOw whAt’s Up wIth YOUr lAdY, bUt I’m dYIng tO fInd A gUY wIth gEnItAl pIErcIngz -ErYnnE

Response:

Is your caps lock key stuck or something? -Tub

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dOn’t knOw whAt’s Up wIth YOUr lAdY, bUt I’m dYIng tO fInd A gUY wIth gEnItAl pIErcIngz -ErYnnE

Response:

I guess this fits into  this thread.  I’m considering getting a few dydoe piercings. can anyone give me any feedback about sexual pleasure from these piercings?   Thanks

Response:

and it helps me get to those special "spots" in my ladys life.. she is STILL afraid of it catching and says it "hurts" occ.. and i can forget ALL hope of a nice ass-fuck…

I wear a 4ga curved barbell, 3/4".  When erect, it’s snug against the shaft and head.  But it still works great for hitting the gspot when having sex from behind. On the other hand, because it’s a barbell, it’s extremely easy to take off when I want to.  So it’s the best of both world. mrc —        Mike Castle       Life is like a clock:  You can work constantly www.netcom.com/~dalgoda/ and be right at least twice a day.  – mrc     We are all of us living in the shadow of Manhattan.  – Watchmen

Response:

"Mike Castle" and it helps me get to those special "spots" in my ladys life.. she is

STILL afraid of it catching and says it "hurts" occ.. and i can forget ALL hope of a nice ass-fuck… I wear a 4ga curved barbell, 3/4".  When erect, it’s snug against the shaft and head.  But it still works great for hitting the gspot when having sex from behind. On the other hand, because it’s a barbell, it’s extremely easy to take off when I want to.  So it’s the best of both world. mrc —        Mike Castle       Life is like a clock:  You can work constantly

If you have sex with a PA isnt there a big change of getting it riped out or something? OUCH ! Does one need to be circumsised to get a PA? If yes, is there a pierce that a non circumsised guy can get there?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Mike Castle" and it helps me get to those special "spots" in my ladys life.. she is STILL afraid of it catching and says it "hurts" occ.. and i can forget ALL hope of a nice ass-fuck… I wear a 4ga curved barbell, 3/4".  When erect, it’s snug against the shaft and head.  But it still works great for hitting the gspot when having sex from behind. On the other hand, because it’s a barbell, it’s extremely easy to take off when I want to.  So it’s the best of both world. mrc —        Mike Castle       Life is like a clock:  You can work constantly If you have sex with a PA isnt there a big change of getting it riped out or something? OUCH ! Does one need to be circumsised to get a PA? If yes, is there a pierce that a non circumsised guy can get there?

*Whoa, you really need to read the FAQ’s. Corine

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Mike Castle" and it helps me get to those special "spots" in my ladys life.. she is STILL afraid of it catching and says it "hurts" occ.. and i can forget ALL hope of a nice ass-fuck… I wear a 4ga curved barbell, 3/4".  When erect, it’s snug against the shaft and head.  But it still works great for hitting the gspot when having sex from behind. On the other hand, because it’s a barbell, it’s extremely easy to take off when I want to.  So it’s the best of both world. mrc —        Mike Castle       Life is like a clock:  You can work constantly If you have sex with a PA isnt there a big change of getting it riped out or something? OUCH ! Does one need to be circumsised to get a PA? If yes, is there a pierce that a non circumsised guy can get there?

Read the goddamn, motherfucking FAQs you retarded bastard. But dont read the piercing FAQ.  Anne Greenblatt is a bigger retard than you are.   —–.

Response:

If you have sex with a PA isnt there a big change of getting it riped out or something? OUCH ! Does one need to be circumsised to get a PA? If yes, is there a pierce that a non circumsised guy can get there?

Sorry- the only piercing you’ll prolly be able to get is the "Ultra Guiche" 1 Find a sharp sword 2 align the tip vertically against your taint 3 sit on it till the tip protrudes out of your torso replace sword with a taper to get to desired gauge 4 replace taper with appropriate cbb, cbr, or bbb rtfF

Response:

Question:

This can be done but it will make the cost of a chart go up $3 apiece. Not worth it to me or to you!

True…it’s only now that the theft has made me have to raise prices. When my volumne was higher I never complained about the rising costs of my supplies and printers and shipping. But now ….I have to take notice because there’s nothing left for me to take home. Maybe I should find out how much of a perticular material has sold so I can compare it to how many graphs I’ve sold? But that wouldn’t work because so many of you are collectors.(nice grin) Over the years I’ve been thinking about doing a limited edition design but that doesn’t ever sound fair because only those with a lot of money would be able to buy it and then others would have a good reason for making copies. The only solution is for me to print them in the two colors (what did you think of the two colors on World Peace Angel? Does it look like it interfered with the stitching?) So I’ll keep them coming and when I can’t make a living from the designs I’ll have to quit and do greeting cards or calenders. Marilyn

Response:

Maybe I should find out how much of a perticular material has sold so I can compare it to how many graphs I’ve sold?

Wouldn’t work, because I don’t take your advice as to fabric.  I’m doing them all on the same color so they’ll make a unified grouping on my wall.  :) — Finished 8/25/00 – wedding sampler WIP: #1 – getting my health back California Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, America the Beautiful (Nimble Needle), antique green doll (Vervaco), Xmas cactus Don’t risk your on-line privileges!  I report all Spam.

Response:

Would it be cheaper to sell the designs electronically or by disk? Maybe put it in PDF format and let the customers print out the designs? (There would still be ways to protect the information, i.e. limiting the number of times the file could be printed) I’m curious–and certainly naive about what’s involved in printing a chart–but why would it cost so much to add a watermark? Lis

Response:

I wonder what size this is? some of my charts as you know can be 23 inches or more?

Actually, what I was thinking of was not watermarked paper, but a very subtle printed design.  Our paychecks were pale blue with a huge VOID in a just slightly different shade of blue that was hidden in the patterning on the original, but showed up real well on a B/W photocopy.  I suspect it had something to do with the magic of Non-Repro Blue ink. Maybe the printer could put something under the color listing that would render it illegible if photocopied, while not affecting those of us who make stitcher’s aid copies? Or float a couple of "VOIDs" in the blank spaces of the chart. — Finished 8/25/00 – wedding sampler WIP: #1 – getting my health back California Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, America the Beautiful (Nimble Needle), antique green doll (Vervaco), Xmas cactus Don’t risk your on-line privileges!  I report all Spam.

Response:

Would it be cheaper to sell the designs electronically or by disk? Maybe put it in PDF format and let the customers print out the designs? (There would still be ways to protect the information, i.e. limiting the number of times the file could be printed)

Most stitchers don’t have computers yet, Ruby. Teri ~~ http://www.craftsoft.com Online stores now listed for Kitty & Me and In the Realm of Dreams Designs

Response:

The only solution is for me to print them in the two colors (what did you think of the two colors on World Peace Angel? Does it look like it Marilyn

Uh, are we supposed to open the package?  I never even thought of that.  I will have to get back to you on that, when I open it. Rg — ICQ# 11508285    AIM=  joxxter

Response:

Did you know that in most businesses 17% of stores don’t pay their bills. Accountants preached this to me. But…in all of my dealings with any cross stitch store I have always been paid every penny they owed me(except for once when I told the store not to pay me because she was in bad trouble and she had helped me get started)…it makes the bankers and accountants shake their heads in disbelief. This is just a reflection of the quality of people who run the stores and the quality of customers they have. We have always been a very honest patient group of people. But we knew that all along? Amazing in such a crazy world we live in….we should all be proud of our good hearts! Marilyn

I didn’t know that and it is amazing.  What an amazing group of people we are.  I am proud to be a stitcher. Richard — ICQ# 11508285    AIM=  joxxter

Response:

The only solution is for me to print them in the two colors (what did you think of the two colors on World Peace Angel? Does it look like it interfered with the stitching?)

Having them in two colors makes it hard for people who have to enlarge the chart to see it well.  I know you make your print pretty large, but because of how my trifocals are made and where I have to put the chart when I stitch, I have to enlarge it to read it.   – Ruth Mays Cinnaminson, NJ The trouble with being an adult is that it takes up so much of my time…

Response:

interfered with the stitching?) So I’ll keep them coming and when I can’t make a living from the designs I’ll have to quit and do greeting cards or calenders.

Please no, Marilyn, you are my greatest inspiration… the thought of you keep me going when I am trying to design a new design… and I would not want to loose your kindness and care you show to show to everyone here… — Nathalie http://nathaliesdesigns.homestead.com/index.html

Response:

I do want to say that I agree.  I know that for me, when i do make a working copy (and I don’t do that if the designer does as MLI does, which is send a pristine chart if you send her the beat up original you’ve been working from), I always carry the original with me.  I don’t want any questions about whether or not I own the chart and have a right to use it.  That way, if anyone asks, I can prove it….

As Marilyn is my inspiration I am following her lead… she has the right idea… with me you can also send me the beat up original and get sent a pristine original… — Nathalie http://nathaliesdesigns.homestead.com/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think this would be a good idea except for the cost.  Watermark paper is very expensive.  Anyway, I wonder if a better idea might be to crack down as much as possible on people doing the copying and disseminating Interested parties might want to read about watermarking at: http://www.digimarc.com/support/cswater.shtml What it costs. http://www.digimarc.com/imaging/pridsignup.asp MarcSpider as explained in the top URL, searches the Internet for copyrighted works, obtained illegally, which have your watermark embedded. No special paper is needed for this. Susanne

Since I print 10,000 to 20,000 at a time it would be $2 more for me to do it(my printer may ask for more to use this) then after the mark up of the distributor and store it would be $4-$5 more for the consumer. That is if these prices don’t have any hidden other costs. I wonder what size this is? some of my charts as you know can be 23 inches or more? Marilyn

Response:

This can be done but it will make the cost of a chart go up $3 apiece. Not worth it to me or to you!

— Finished 8/25/00 – wedding sampler WIP: #1 – getting my health back California Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, America the Beautiful (Nimble Needle), antique green doll (Vervaco), Xmas cactus Don’t risk your on-line privileges!  I report all Spam.

Response:

I think this would be a good idea except for the cost.  Watermark paper is very expensive.  Anyway, I wonder if a better idea might be to crack down as much as possible on people doing the copying and disseminating.  The designers need to know if we know of someone making copies of their charts and passing them out.  I think that it may make more sense to keep the designers and stitchers in the loop about who is making illegal copies. Just my $.02 worth.  And it’s late, so if I didn’t make any sense, my apologies in advance. Isabel — WIPS: Pig Dish Towels Purrfect Something or Other Celebrate Today Is Not Your Day Job Hunting (Again) I REPORT ALL SPAM.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I may be coming late to this but wanted to add my two cents.  Why don’t the designers add a watermark to their charts?  It wouldn’t interfere with the design.  But if someone tried to make a photocopy, it would show up and render the copy useless.  I don’t know if it would work the same for scanning or not. Lis

Response:

I think this would be a good idea except for the cost.  Watermark paper is very expensive.  Anyway, I wonder if a better idea might be to crack down as much as possible on people doing the copying and disseminating

Interested parties might want to read about watermarking at: http://www.digimarc.com/support/cswater.shtml What it costs. http://www.digimarc.com/imaging/pridsignup.asp MarcSpider as explained in the top URL, searches the Internet for copyrighted works, obtained illegally, which have your watermark embedded. No special paper is needed for this. Susanne

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think this would be a good idea except for the cost.  Watermark paper is very expensive.  Anyway, I wonder if a better idea might be to crack down as much as possible on people doing the copying and disseminating.  The designers need to know if we know of someone making copies of their charts and passing them out.  I think that it may make more sense to keep the designers and stitchers in the loop about who is making illegal copies. Just my $.02 worth.  And it’s late, so if I didn’t make any sense, my apologies in advance. Isabel — WIPS: Pig Dish Towels Purrfect Something or Other Celebrate Today Is Not Your Day Job Hunting (Again) I REPORT ALL SPAM. Hi, I may be coming late to this but wanted to add my two cents.  Why don’t the designers add a watermark to their charts?  It wouldn’t interfere with the design.  But if someone tried to make a photocopy, it would show up and render the copy useless.  I don’t know if it would work the same for scanning or not. Lis

Absolutely! You stitchers have to police yourselves when you are in a group and they start to speak of "sharing" No designer can be everywhere. You are the ones hurt the most by people taking designs for free. Stichers have to be educated when it comes to this. Most don’t know or understand that what they are doing is wrong. Only when they have to hide and sneak will the basically good honest stitcher say "hey this is wrong…it doesn’t feel honest" Then the practice will stop. I hope and pray! Did you know that in most businesses 17% of stores don’t pay their bills. Accountants preached this to me. But…in all of my dealings with any cross stitch store I have always been paid every penny they owed me(except for once when I told the store not to pay me because she was in bad trouble and she had helped me get started)…it makes the bankers and accountants shake their heads in disbelief. This is just a reflection of the quality of people who run the stores and the quality of customers they have. We have always been a very honest patient group of people. But we knew that all along? Amazing in such a crazy world we live in….we should all be proud of our good hearts! Marilyn

Response:

Good suggestion, Ruby! For years, I’ve been getting paychecks which, if you photocopy them, the very subtle background print suddenly jumps out in big grey letters saying VOID.  It doesn’t particularly interfere with reading the copy, but it does make it obvious that it IS a copy. — Finished 8/25/00 – wedding sampler WIP: #1 – getting my health back California Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, America the Beautiful (Nimble Needle), antique green doll (Vervaco), Xmas cactus Don’t risk your on-line privileges!  I report all Spam.

Response:

Good suggestion, Ruby! For years, I’ve been getting paychecks which, if you photocopy them, the very subtle background print suddenly jumps out in big grey letters saying VOID.  It doesn’t particularly interfere with reading the copy, but it does make it obvious that it IS a copy. — Finished 8/25/00 – wedding sampler WIP: #1 – getting my health back California Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, America the Beautiful (Nimble Needle), antique green doll (Vervaco), Xmas cactus Don’t risk your on-line privileges!  I report all Spam.

 This can be done but it will make the cost of a chart go up $3 apiece. Not worth it to me or to you! Marilyn

Response:

Hi, I may be coming late to this but wanted to add my two cents.  Why don’t the designers add a watermark to their charts?  It wouldn’t interfere with the design.  But if someone tried to make a photocopy, it would show up and render the copy useless.  I don’t know if it would work the same for scanning or not. Lis

Response:

Hi, I may be coming late to this but wanted to add my two cents.  Why don’t the designers add a watermark to their charts?  It wouldn’t interfere with the design.  But if someone tried to make a photocopy, it would show up and render the copy useless.  I don’t know if it would work the same for scanning or not.

Hi, Lis, I appreciate your suggestion and realize you’re trying to offer the best possible suggestion to help, but my company has no problem with stitchers making a personal copy to stitch from.  Adding a watermark of that type would make it impossible for them to do this. One has to walk a fine line.  Trying to protect yourself from illegal and injurious actions can also take away from what you want to give to others.  At this point, I’d rather allow stitchers to make their personal copies.  I’d rather take mis-use of our charts up with the individual causing the problem rather than harm the majority of considerate, good-hearted stitchers. Teri ~~ http://www.craftsoft.com Online stores now listed for Kitty & Me and In the Realm of Dreams Designs

Response:

Question:

Hi all, Any of you could give any feed back on accounting software to run a flying club, something which can bill membership monthly subscribtion flying hours, landing fees… Any advice welcome. — Jean Jacques

Response:

Any off the shelf product will do it, but my personal preference is QuickBooks.  It can handle anything. Chris Hi all, Any of you could give any feed back on accounting software to run a flying club, something which can bill membership monthly subscribtion flying hours, landing fees… Any advice welcome. — Jean Jacques

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Lets keep all the boats. One half fish one year and the others the next. Who knows after five years there may be enough fish to allow all boats to fish again.

Response:

     FYI CCA IN UNPRECEDENTED AGREEMENT TO CONTROL LONGLINES, SHRINK FLEET      In late August, CCA, in conjunction with The Billfish Foundation and      the American Sportfishing Association, entered into a memorandum with      the Blue Water Fishermen’s Association (which represents longliners),      pursuant to which 160,000 square miles of US waters would be      permanently closed to longlining, additional time and area closures      would be instituted, the size of the longline fleet would be reduced      by 30% and longliners would be required to participate in an extended      study aimed at reducing bycatch.      The permanently closed area would stretch from the North      Carolina/South Carolina border to Key West, Florida, an area      identified in Billfish Foundation studies as the U.S. region      accounting for the greatest incidence of sub-legal swordfish and      billfish bycatch.  (Early this year, CCA opposed NMFS’s original      proposal of a seasonal closure encompassing only the Florida Straits,      since we realized that the more extensive closure provided by the      current agreement was not only possible, but necessary.)  Large areas      in the northern and western Gulf of Mexico will also be subject to      seasonal closures.      As part of the agreement, the longline fleet will be reduced by      approximately 30% through buyouts.  50% of the money for the buyouts      will come from the federal government.  The remaining costs will be      shared equally by the remaining participants in the longline fishery      and by anglers fishing in the closed areas (or by state governments      assuming the anglers’ share).      While the agreement is, in the words of Walter Fondren, CCA’s      Chairman, "maybe the biggest conservation measure for offshore      fisheries ever," it is, as he acknowledges, only a "step in the right      direction."  CCA, other conservation organizations and the longliners      themselves will now go to the International Commission for the      Conservation of Atlantic Tunas, and request that similar conservation      measures be implemented in international waters.  Such international      management is essential, since about 95% of Atlantic billfish      mortality, and most mortality of juvenile swordfish, is caused by      foreign longliners.      For the agreement to become effective, it must be approved by      Congress.  CCA has already lined up a list of influential sponsors and      cosponsors in both the House and the Senate.  Unfortunately, a      negative campaign with some false information regarding the agreement      is encouraging anglers to ask their Congressman to oppose the deal.      Since any piece of legislation is a very delicate construct,  that      campaign could succeed.  Therefore, CCA NY members are being provided      with the following information so that, properly informed, they can      spread the truth regarding the agreement:      Vessels that are "bought out" of the longline fishery will not be able      to enter any other commercial fishery.  Such vessels are federally      documented.  Pursuant to the buyout agreement, not only the vessels’      longline permits, but also the commercial fishing endorsement in their      documentation, will be purchased.  After such purchase, the vessels      may be used as dive boats, party boats, whale-watchers, oil-rig      tenders or any other purpose except commercial fishing for the rest of      their working lives.      The buyout will substantially reduce effort in the domestic swordfish      fishery. Longliners remaining after the buyout have agreed to support,      at ICCAT, at 10-year rebuilding plan for swordfish, and will insist      that American negotiators press for such a plan.  Since a 10-year      rebuilding plan will require harvest reductions of at least 27%, both      the reduction in fleet size and the reduction in harvest will be      roughly proportional.  The remaining longline vessels will not reap a      significantly larger share of the swordfish quota.      There should be little displacement of longline effort from the closed      areas to the mid-Atlantic and New England.  The east-coast longline      fishery is broken into distinct segments.  a)  Longliners in the Gulf      of Mexico primarily target yellowfin tuna in a short-set, live bait      fishery that provides most of the fresh tuna steaks to the eastern      United States.  Employing methods designed to get fish from the water      to the consumer in a matter of hours, Gulf longliners have already      agreed that they could remain in local waters and serve their      traditional markets under the terms of the agreement.  Under the terms      of the agreement, they have agreed to participate in a multi-year      scientific study of longline bycatch.  b)  Southeastern longliners      primarily target swordfish, and is the group that will be the most      affected by the closures.  Some may opt to travel from traditional      ports, and fish in waters north of the closure line.  However, most      are expected to accept the buyout offer instead.  c)  Mid-Atlantic      longliners, most operating out of New Jersey, are unique in that they      target both swordfish and tuna.  They are not expected to be      significant participants in the buyout, and their operations will see      little immediate impact from the agreement, although they will also      participate in a multi-year bycatch study.  d)  New England longliners      are primarily swordfishermen, and comprise a distant waters fleet that      frequently fishes for extended periods outside of the EEZ.  They will      see the least immediate impact from the agreement, and will remain in      traditional waters.      Vessel owners who accept the buyout will not be able to re-enter the      fishery unless another owner leaves.  Because a limited-entry system      has been instituted in the longline fishery, the only way such a      vessel owner would be able to obtain a permit would be to buy it from      another owner who will then no longer be able to fish.      A direct ban, without some of agreement from longliners may even hurt      the fishery.  Longlining is a frighteningly effective and terribly      destructive means of catching fish.  However, American vessels,      fishing under a permit issued by NMFS, are required to obey American      fishery management plans even when they fish in international waters.      Thus, U.S.-permitted longliners may not retain billfish, fin sharks or      commit similar offenses whenever and wherever they fish.  A vessel      banned in the U.S. might  decide to reflag in Trinidad, Haiti,      Venezuela or other foreign jurisdiction, and would free such vessels      of the restrictions imposed by American law.  Since more than 95% of      billfish and more than 50% of juvenile swordfish are already killed by      foreign-flag boats, an American ban would do virtually nothing to      rebuild the fishery, but would end America’s moderating influence.      Pursuant to the agreement, vessel owners who accept the buyout will      not be able to reflag in another nation.      Armed with the above information, CCA NY members will be able to      refute fallacious arguments and urge adoption of the longline      agreement-the first real breakthrough in the conservation of highly      migratory species since CCA spearheaded the drive to outlaw the sale      of Atlantic billfish, more than a decade ago. — Joseph M Tyson Bellport, Long Island

Response:

Just my opinion, but buying out 68 boats of dubious condition for $1 million each using our tax dollars is pretty depressing.  I haven’t read the fine print of this "deal with the devil" pact, but I’d like to see the longline fishery’s total quota reduced by at least 50% if we can’t succeed in banning the (longline) fishing method altogether. Dollars to donuts the NMFS will take any quota reduction from lost longliners and stick it back in another fishery’s quota. While it sounds prosaic… longliners should all convert back to harpoon boats for swords, and the NMFS should put a minimum of 250 pounds dressed carcass weight for a commercial-sold fish.  Right now longliners are landing juvenile fish in the sub-100 pound category on a regular basis, and these fish aren’t even old enough to spawn… so it’s only a matter of time before the species is wiped out and these jerks are holding their hands out again.  Just look at the mess up in New England in the George’s Bank. I’ve seen longliners out in the deep transferring fish carcasses from one boat to another, and you know that something fishy (no pun intended) is going on.  Probably selling a decent sized blue marlin to a foreign boat.  Yeah, it’s OK because it’s dead bycatch.  Saw that out around Washington Canyon a couple of years ago while we were fishing in the Mid-Atlantic 500.  Everyone should work so hard to eliminate the longline fishery altogether without a cash buyout, and support the Recreational Fishing Alliance and the 90+ groups, companies, and other organizations that are opposing the CCA deal. I’ve suggested to Doug Kelly of Sport Fishing that the next FACE OFF article should feature this debate… hopefully with someone like Al Ristori/Jim Donofrio on one side supporting the RFA, and John McMurray supporting the NY-CCA and their position.  Doug has already responded to muy email and agreed that this would be a good one… so look forward to two conservation groups with different perspectives going at it soon. Maybe we’ll have some surprises on both sides, but this issue needs to be discussed, since both groups want strong stocks of billfish, tuna and shark. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     FYI CCA IN UNPRECEDENTED AGREEMENT TO CONTROL LONGLINES, SHRINK FLEET     In late August, CCA, in conjunction with The Billfish Foundation and     the American Sportfishing Association, entered into a memorandum with     the Blue Water Fishermen’s Association (which represents longliners),     pursuant to which 160,000 square miles of US waters would be     permanently closed to longlining, additional time and area closures     would be instituted, the size of the longline fleet would be reduced     by 30% and longliners would be required to participate in an extended     study aimed at reducing bycatch.     The permanently closed area would stretch from the North     Carolina/South Carolina border to Key West, Florida, an area     identified in Billfish Foundation studies as the U.S. region     accounting for the greatest incidence of sub-legal swordfish and     billfish bycatch.  (Early this year, CCA opposed NMFS’s original     proposal of a seasonal closure encompassing only the Florida Straits,     since we realized that the more extensive closure provided by the     current agreement was not only possible, but necessary.)  Large areas     in the northern and western Gulf of Mexico will also be subject to     seasonal closures.     As part of the agreement, the longline fleet will be reduced by     approximately 30% through buyouts.  50% of the money for the buyouts     will come from the federal government.  The remaining costs will be     shared equally by the remaining participants in the longline fishery     and by anglers fishing in the closed areas (or by state governments     assuming the anglers’ share).     While the agreement is, in the words of Walter Fondren, CCA’s     Chairman, "maybe the biggest conservation measure for offshore     fisheries ever," it is, as he acknowledges, only a "step in the right     direction."  CCA, other conservation organizations and the longliners     themselves will now go to the International Commission for the     Conservation of Atlantic Tunas, and request that similar conservation     measures be implemented in international waters.  Such international     management is essential, since about 95% of Atlantic billfish     mortality, and most mortality of juvenile swordfish, is caused by     foreign longliners.     For the agreement to become effective, it must be approved by     Congress.  CCA has already lined up a list of influential sponsors and     cosponsors in both the House and the Senate.  Unfortunately, a     negative campaign with some false information regarding the agreement     is encouraging anglers to ask their Congressman to oppose the deal.     Since any piece of legislation is a very delicate construct,  that     campaign could succeed.  Therefore, CCA NY members are being provided     with the following information so that, properly informed, they can     spread the truth regarding the agreement:     Vessels that are "bought out" of the longline fishery will not be able     to enter any other commercial fishery.  Such vessels are federally     documented.  Pursuant to the buyout agreement, not only the vessels’     longline permits, but also the commercial fishing endorsement in their     documentation, will be purchased.  After such purchase, the vessels     may be used as dive boats, party boats, whale-watchers, oil-rig     tenders or any other purpose except commercial fishing for the rest of     their working lives.     The buyout will substantially reduce effort in the domestic swordfish     fishery. Longliners remaining after the buyout have agreed to support,     at ICCAT, at 10-year rebuilding plan for swordfish, and will insist     that American negotiators press for such a plan.  Since a 10-year     rebuilding plan will require harvest reductions of at least 27%, both     the reduction in fleet size and the reduction in harvest will be     roughly proportional.  The remaining longline vessels will not reap a     significantly larger share of the swordfish quota.     There should be little displacement of longline effort from the closed     areas to the mid-Atlantic and New England.  The east-coast longline     fishery is broken into distinct segments.  a)  Longliners in the Gulf     of Mexico primarily target yellowfin tuna in a short-set, live bait     fishery that provides most of the fresh tuna steaks to the eastern     United States.  Employing methods designed to get fish from the water     to the consumer in a matter of hours, Gulf longliners have already     agreed that they could remain in local waters and serve their     traditional markets under the terms of the agreement.  Under the terms     of the agreement, they have agreed to participate in a multi-year     scientific study of longline bycatch.  b)  Southeastern longliners     primarily target swordfish, and is the group that will be the most     affected by the closures.  Some may opt to travel from traditional     ports, and fish in waters north of the closure line.  However, most     are expected to accept the buyout offer instead.  c)  Mid-Atlantic     longliners, most operating out of New Jersey, are unique in that they     target both swordfish and tuna.  They are not expected to be     significant participants in the buyout, and their operations will see     little immediate impact from the agreement, although they will also     participate in a multi-year bycatch study.  d)  New England longliners     are primarily swordfishermen, and comprise a distant waters fleet that     frequently fishes for extended periods outside of the EEZ.  They will     see the least immediate impact from the agreement, and will remain in     traditional waters.     Vessel owners who accept the buyout will not be able to re-enter the     fishery unless another owner leaves.  Because a limited-entry system     has been instituted in the longline fishery, the only way such a     vessel owner would be able to obtain a permit would be to buy it from     another owner who will then no longer be able to fish.     A direct ban, without some of agreement from longliners may even hurt     the fishery.  Longlining is a frighteningly effective and terribly     destructive means of catching fish.  However, American vessels,     fishing under a permit issued by NMFS, are required to obey American     fishery management plans even when they fish in international waters.     Thus, U.S.-permitted longliners may not retain billfish, fin sharks or     commit similar offenses whenever and wherever they fish.  A vessel     banned in the U.S. might  decide to reflag in Trinidad, Haiti,     Venezuela or other foreign jurisdiction, and would free such vessels     of the restrictions imposed by American law.  Since more than 95% of     billfish and more than 50% of juvenile swordfish are already killed by     foreign-flag boats, an American ban would do virtually nothing to     rebuild the fishery, but would end America’s moderating influence.     Pursuant to the agreement, vessel owners who accept the buyout will     not be able to reflag in another nation.     Armed with the above information, CCA NY members will be able to     refute fallacious arguments and urge adoption of the longline     agreement-the first real breakthrough in the conservation of highly     migratory species since CCA spearheaded the drive to outlaw the sale     of Atlantic billfish, more than a decade ago. — Joseph M Tyson Bellport, Long Island

… read more »

Response:

Question:

There’s so much more potential with LLC’s, you’re just scratching the surface. Check out our web site below and/or email us for more info. Robert M. Pritchett, President – RMP Consulting Partners LLC "Quality means doing it right the first time!" Contractors: tired of hearing "W-2 only"? Join us and let us help you get that same contract on a 1099 as a self-employed independent contractor!

Response:

Generally, LLC’s are taxed like partnerships.  However, one person cannot be a partnership.  I’m not familar with Texas law but I know that one person can’t set up an LLC in a lot of states.  Assuming you can do it in Texas, it is possible that the IRS will force you to be taxed as a corporation depending on the characteristics that your organization possesses (such as limited liability).

One-person LLCs are normally taxed as sole proprietorships. Sorry, but your assumptions are 180 degrees reversed regarding dividends vs. salary.  The IRS would certainly prefer that you pay yourself a dividend rather than salary:  Salary is deductible to the corporation where dividends are not.  Therefore, dividends are subject to double taxation (you have to pay taxes on the dividend but the corporation can’t deduct it.  Even though you have to pay taxes on salary the corporation can deduct it).  That’s why the IRS contests whether an owner is getting too much salary for the job that he/she does.  They love to take some of that salary and recharacterize it as dividends.

You are thinking of C-corps.  S-corps were invented for the precise purpose of avoiding the double taxation you described. Bob

Response:

What disadvantages do I have to setting up the LLC myself with the State of Texas?  It doesn’t seem that complicated to follow Form 205 and make up a two page Articles of Organization to set the company up (I’ve always done my own income tax returns, accounting, and contract writing).

There are many legal considerations involved in protecting yourself from liability.  All in all, it’s not the sort of thing you’d want to entrust to anyone but a trained lawyer (since, if you blew it, you could end up losing your shirt – and everything else, as well)!  It’s also a one-time rather than an ongoing expense, so cost isn’t all that important a consideration. If nothing else, you’d at least have the comfort of knowing that your LLC was set up by somebody who knew that the initials stand for Limited Liability Company (not Limited Liability Corporation). Bob

Response:

After 1/1/1997 a single owner LLC can be taxed as a sole proprietor default) or corporation but not as a partnership. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are treated as a Partnership and so have to file a Federal 1065. You will get a K1 to attach to your 1040.  You do not have to have multiple partners (members), but, it might be a good idea to have two. You may also find that going through an agency, that you will be able to form your LLC much faster.  You may even find that forming it in DE or NV and registering as a Foreign Corp (LLC) in TX works better. Me, personally:  I formed mine in DE, and worked in MD.  Then I moved to OH, and have registered it here.  And I do the same type work that you do. Later, Steve Thompson OSP LLC I’m currently a sole proprietor, and am looking at incorporation, because I would like to hire a couple part timers and want to reduce my liability exposure.  I do mainly computer consulting and programming (currently, but I’m expanding into other areas of consulting). In any case, I have been looking at a single member LLC (limited liability corporation) here in Texas, because it would be treated as a sole proprietorship for federal tax purposes (correct me if I’m wrong!), but would provide the protection I’m looking for from the acts of my employees.  Taxwise, I don’t see any big advantages to a sub-S, since I’d have to take almost all my income out as an employee (the IRS doesn’t look favorably on personal service corporations paying a lot to single owners in dividends instead of salary/bonuses when the single owner is the main corporate earner). What disadvantages do I have to setting up the LLC myself with the State of Texas?  It doesn’t seem that complicated to follow Form 205 and make up a two page Articles of Organization to set the company up (I’ve always done my own income tax returns, accounting, and contract writing). Thanks for any input! Matthew Wylie –   M.I.S. Director   Roses Direct, Inc.   Matthew G Wylie   Roses Direct, Inc.       HTML Mail   5850 Gulfton Suite 1845  Fax: 713-661-3275   Houston                  Work: 713-661-3250   TX                       Netscape Conference Address   77081                    Netscape Conference DLS Server   Additional Information:   Last Name   Wylie   First Name  Matthew G   Version     2.1

Response:

I think that 180 degree turn you recommended is going in the wrong direction. Matthew was talking about salary in a Sub-S corporation not a C Corporation. In an S-Corporation where personal services are material the IRS requires the shareholder(s) performing that service to take a salary. To withdraw the profits out only as distributions would constitute evasion if payroll taxes.  I don’t know why but there seems to be a common misconception that Sub-S means never having to pay Social Security, Medicare, FUTA or State Unemployment and Disability Taxes. Allan Martin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Generally, LLC’s are taxed like partnerships.  However, one person cannot be a partnership.  I’m not familar with Texas law but I know that one person can’t set up an LLC in a lot of states.  Assuming you can do it in Texas, it is possible that the IRS will force you to be taxed as a corporation depending on the characteristics that your organization possesses (such as limited liability). Sorry, but your assumptions are 180 degrees reversed regarding dividends vs. salary.  The IRS would certainly prefer that you pay yourself a dividend rather than salary:  Salary is deductible to the corporation where dividends are not.  Therefore, dividends are subject to double taxation (you have to pay taxes on the dividend but the corporation can’t deduct it.  Even though you have to pay taxes on salary the corporation can deduct it).  That’s why the IRS contests whether an owner is getting too much salary for the job that he/she does.  They love to take some of that salary and recharacterize it as dividends. This of course gets into whether the amount received was due to the job being done or by virtue of being the owner (investment). I’m currently a sole proprietor, and am looking at incorporation, because I would like to hire a couple part timers and want to reduce my liability exposure.  I do mainly computer consulting and programming (currently, but I’m expanding into other areas of consulting). In any case, I have been looking at a single member LLC (limited liability corporation) here in Texas, because it would be treated as a sole proprietorship for federal tax purposes (correct me if I’m wrong!), but would provide the protection I’m looking for from the acts of my employees.  Taxwise, I don’t see any big advantages to a sub-S, since I’d have to take almost all my income out as an employee (the IRS doesn’t look favorably on personal service corporations paying a lot to single owners in dividends instead of salary/bonuses when the single owner is the main corporate earner). What disadvantages do I have to setting up the LLC myself with the State of Texas?  It doesn’t seem that complicated to follow Form 205 and make up a two page Articles of Organization to set the company up (I’ve always done my own income tax returns, accounting, and contract writing). Thanks for any input! Matthew Wylie –   M.I.S. Director   Roses Direct, Inc.   Matthew G Wylie   Roses Direct, Inc.       HTML Mail   5850 Gulfton Suite 1845  Fax: 713-661-3275   Houston                  Work: 713-661-3250   TX                       Netscape Conference Address   77081                    Netscape Conference DLS Server   Additional Information:   Last Name   Wylie   First Name  Matthew G   Version     2.1

Response:

Generally, LLC’s are taxed like partnerships.  However, one person cannot be a partnership.  I’m not familar with Texas law but I know that one person can’t set up an LLC in a lot of states.  Assuming you can do it in Texas, it is possible that the IRS will force you to be taxed as a corporation depending on the characteristics that your organization possesses (such as limited liability). Sorry, but your assumptions are 180 degrees reversed regarding dividends vs. salary.  The IRS would certainly prefer that you pay yourself a dividend rather than salary:  Salary is deductible to the corporation where dividends are not.  Therefore, dividends are subject to double taxation (you have to pay taxes on the dividend but the corporation can’t deduct it.  Even though you have to pay taxes on salary the corporation can deduct it).  That’s why the IRS contests whether an owner is getting too much salary for the job that he/she does.  They love to take some of that salary and recharacterize it as dividends. This of course gets into whether the amount received was due to the job being done or by virtue of being the owner (investment). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m currently a sole proprietor, and am looking at incorporation, because I would like to hire a couple part timers and want to reduce my liability exposure.  I do mainly computer consulting and programming (currently, but I’m expanding into other areas of consulting). In any case, I have been looking at a single member LLC (limited liability corporation) here in Texas, because it would be treated as a sole proprietorship for federal tax purposes (correct me if I’m wrong!), but would provide the protection I’m looking for from the acts of my employees.  Taxwise, I don’t see any big advantages to a sub-S, since I’d have to take almost all my income out as an employee (the IRS doesn’t look favorably on personal service corporations paying a lot to single owners in dividends instead of salary/bonuses when the single owner is the main corporate earner). What disadvantages do I have to setting up the LLC myself with the State of Texas?  It doesn’t seem that complicated to follow Form 205 and make up a two page Articles of Organization to set the company up (I’ve always done my own income tax returns, accounting, and contract writing). Thanks for any input! Matthew Wylie   M.I.S. Director   Roses Direct, Inc.   Matthew G Wylie   Roses Direct, Inc.       HTML Mail   5850 Gulfton Suite 1845  Fax: 713-661-3275   Houston                  Work: 713-661-3250   TX                       Netscape Conference Address   77081                    Netscape Conference DLS Server   Additional Information:   Last Name   Wylie   First Name  Matthew G   Version     2.1

Response:

You are treated as a Partnership and so have to file a Federal 1065. You will get a K1 to attach to your 1040.  You do not have to have multiple partners (members), but, it might be a good idea to have two. You may also find that going through an agency, that you will be able to form your LLC much faster.  You may even find that forming it in DE or NV and registering as a Foreign Corp (LLC) in TX works better. Me, personally:  I formed mine in DE, and worked in MD.  Then I moved to OH, and have registered it here.  And I do the same type work that you do. Later, Steve Thompson OSP LLC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m currently a sole proprietor, and am looking at incorporation, because I would like to hire a couple part timers and want to reduce my liability exposure.  I do mainly computer consulting and programming (currently, but I’m expanding into other areas of consulting). In any case, I have been looking at a single member LLC (limited liability corporation) here in Texas, because it would be treated as a sole proprietorship for federal tax purposes (correct me if I’m wrong!), but would provide the protection I’m looking for from the acts of my employees.  Taxwise, I don’t see any big advantages to a sub-S, since I’d have to take almost all my income out as an employee (the IRS doesn’t look favorably on personal service corporations paying a lot to single owners in dividends instead of salary/bonuses when the single owner is the main corporate earner). What disadvantages do I have to setting up the LLC myself with the State of Texas?  It doesn’t seem that complicated to follow Form 205 and make up a two page Articles of Organization to set the company up (I’ve always done my own income tax returns, accounting, and contract writing). Thanks for any input! Matthew Wylie   M.I.S. Director   Roses Direct, Inc.   Matthew G Wylie   Roses Direct, Inc.       HTML Mail   5850 Gulfton Suite 1845  Fax: 713-661-3275   Houston                  Work: 713-661-3250   TX                       Netscape Conference Address   77081                    Netscape Conference DLS Server   Additional Information:   Last Name   Wylie   First Name  Matthew G   Version     2.1

Response:

I’m currently a sole proprietor, and am looking at incorporation, because I would like to hire a couple part timers and want to reduce my liability exposure.  I do mainly computer consulting and programming (currently, but I’m expanding into other areas of consulting). In any case, I have been looking at a single member LLC (limited liability corporation) here in Texas, because it would be treated as a sole proprietorship for federal tax purposes (correct me if I’m wrong!), but would provide the protection I’m looking for from the acts of my employees.  Taxwise, I don’t see any big advantages to a sub-S, since I’d have to take almost all my income out as an employee (the IRS doesn’t look favorably on personal service corporations paying a lot to single owners in dividends instead of salary/bonuses when the single owner is the main corporate earner). What disadvantages do I have to setting up the LLC myself with the State of Texas?  It doesn’t seem that complicated to follow Form 205 and make up a two page Articles of Organization to set the company up (I’ve always done my own income tax returns, accounting, and contract writing). Thanks for any input! Matthew Wylie

  mwylie.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

Question:

I am trying to set up my company in Quickbooks 6.0, when I invoice the customers the income account and accounts receivable account are used, but when they pay these invoices sometimes I need to use different accounts to distribute them to eg: payable accounts.  Is there any answer to my dilemma about distributing these to more than just the income account. Thanks, Julie

Response:

When you enter a Deposit, you can apply it to any account, the following are the basic instructions: Depositing payments: 1       From the Activities menu, choose Make Deposits. 2       If you have payments to deposit, click the ones you’d like to deposit now. 3       Click OK. Note: To return to the list of payments to deposit, click the Pmts. button. 4       In the Make Deposits window, select the account you’d like to deposit into. 5       Indicate whether you are getting cash back. If you spent some of your cash sales receipts during the day, follow the steps for getting cash back to enter the expenditures in QuickBooks. 6       (Optional) If you are depositing a payment made by credit card, you can enter the credit card fees as a negative amount and charge them to an expense account by listing the fees on a separate line in the Make Deposits window. 7       In the detail area of the Make Deposits window, enter any deposits that did not come from customer payments. 8       Click OK. If you have any more questions, just let me know. Thanks, Steve Bookkeeping 2000 Quick Books Professional Advisor Computer Consultant – Tax Prepare – Educator/Trainer – Accountant(Not CPA) – Bookkeeper(Current becoming Certified) http://pages.prodigy.net/bookkeeping 1200 East Huntington Drive – Suite 101 – Duarte, CA 91010 (626) 935-3375

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am trying to set up my company in Quickbooks 6.0, when I invoice the customers the income account and accounts receivable account are used, but when they pay these invoices sometimes I need to use different accounts to distribute them to eg: payable accounts.  Is there any answer to my dilemma about distributing these to more than just the income account. Thanks, Julie

Response: