Question:

To understand whether or not it’s illegal, we have to look at the way the law legislates how we do commerce. There are three places we can from statute law (ie the laws the government make up), and industry based practices (eg, ethics that govern, say, CPAs. If you break one of these ethics or practices, the CPA throw you out of the organisation.) Under common law, most commerce is dealt with under the law of contract. No-one has to disclose anything under contract law – not markups, not how many hours work was done, nothing. All contract law is concerned about can be boiled down to: Did someone make an offer for something? Did the other person accept it? For instance, if you go to a shop that sells bottles of Coke, you can be sure that the shopkeeper has added on a markup to the price he bought it for. But he’s not obligated to tell you what that is. This area of law is covered bycontract law. The shopkeeper says "I will sell this to you for $1", and if you say "Ok", then it’s yours. This is very simple, because the shopkeeper can make an offer of a particular price, and you can either choose to accept it or not. However, what happens when neither party knows how much it’s going to cost? For instance, if I’m an accountant doing someone’s tax return, I don’t know how long it’s going to take me to prepare it. If I guessed and said "I’ll do your tax return for $200", then what happens if I find some weird thing about their situation that could save them thousands in tax if I only could be bothered to look up my tax book? If I’d quoted them a flat fee, I wouldn’t pursue it because hey, I’m getting paid the same anyway. Therefore, we need a new body of law to cover these sort of situations, otherwise no-one would trust professionals to do quality work. It’s called The Law of Agency. Instead of quoting an agreed fee, I get appointed to apply my skills in my client’s best interests. I’m allowed to charge by the hour, charge a commission on expenses, even charge a markup … whatever method of payment we can agree on … but I have a "fiduciary duty" to my client, which means I have to act with the highest level of ethics, honesty, and in their best interests. Of course, sometimes conflicts of interest arise. For instance, if you’re relying on me for advice about which shares to buy, what happens if I already own some of those shares? If I say "buy them", your buying them will put the price of my own shares up, which means I’m biased toward recommending them. If this was allowed to happen, no-one would trust professionals to give them good advice. So to maintain my integrity to my fiduciary responsibilities to my client, I therefore have to disclose all the material facts that might bias my opinions. The idea is, if the client knows about my potential biases, and hires me anyway, then at least they’re can judge how fair my opinions are and how well I’m going to act on their behalf. Okay, let’s apply this stuff to the original question about the subcontractor who realised his client was bumping up the number of hours worked in the end user client’s bill. We have three parties here: an end user client, a fixer (the one the end user turned to to solve the problem), and the sub-contractor (who actually went out to the client’s place to solve the problem). I imagine that this case isn’t one where a fixed fee was agreed upon at the beginning. It was probably one that needed specific skills on site to even work out what the problem was. Therefore, the law of agency comes into play, and the fixer (and the subcontractor) have a fiduciary responsibility to act in the client’s best interest if they decide to take on the job. Therefore, if they give a false account of what hours were worked, or what the expenses were, then that’s a breach of their duties. Totally illegal. Release the hounds. But if the hours and expenses are recorded correctly, and they’d made an agreement beforehand about what markups and hourly rates would be charged, then that’s perfectly okay. Having said that, why do funeral homes not mark up the cost of flowers? Well, it could be because the funeral industry is regulated by the government, which means that if you run a funeral home, you’re bound by certain government made laws in addition to the law of agency. So for instance, the government might ban mark ups there. Alternatively, the local association of Funeral Directors might have an industry-wide agreement not to mark up flowers, and will ban you from receiving their monthly newsletter or attending their events if you do. In some industries, belonging to the industry association is important enough that this acts as a deterrent! And as for real estate businesses … check with a realtor in the same state about what the obligations are in this industry. But if it’s common practice to charge a markup for employing a gardener, I guess it’ll be alright as long as markups etc are disclosed beforehand. Regards, Durand PS: There’s a potential loophole here. The realtor could make sure they hire the most expensive gardener in town to mow the lawn. That way, their 30% markup is worth more actual dollars. When the question is asked in court about whether this is in the client’s best interests, the realtor could argue that they provided the client with the highest possible quality of lawn snipping they could find, and leave it to the judge to work out whether the price charged was reasonable. This is an example of how to be unethical without necessarily being illegal. But in the end, if we get a reputation for doing that sort of stuff, it becomes harder to find clients later.

Response:

Hi OB In this scenario what is going on is completely legal! In fact, it falls right in line with the majority of service businesses.

Thank you… great write-up

Response:

Hi Paul It depends upon HOW the paperwork is handled as to whether it is legal or illegal in the scenario’s you presented below. I don’t know where you live, but a mark-up on the appraisal fee is prohibited by law.

ABC Bank requires an appraisal to approve the loan, some banks want to use their own appraisal companies while other will allow registered appraisals to suffice.  You call Bob’s Appraisal service to handle the appraisal, Bob’s says this will cost $350.00, but Bob is too busy to handle it so he calls Amy’s Appraisal to do the work and to bill Bob for the service.  Bob sends the appraisal in on his companies papers and bills on his letterhead for the agreed $350.00.  Amy only charges Bob $250.00 for providing him with Appraisals when he sends orders her way.  Bob is who marked up the appraisal fee!  The customers contract for appraisal to be paid out of closing proceeds is legit at the price of $350.00 I was a Predication Worker for over 25 years.  We went into homes for sale to bring the minor violations up to code, based usually upon the inspectors list of requirements.  Most if not all of the Realtor’s that requested that I do the work, usually worked through Brokers, I also did a lot of work for these Brokers as well. However, many times they would just call me direct and fax me the list of things to be updated or corrected.  More often than not I was told to invoice through an unknown (to me) Broker rather than directly to the Realty Office.  The addresses of these unknown Brokers were often the home address of one of the Realty Office’s Agents.  Who I’m sure had some company name they used to bill the Realty company for the Predication work performed at the going rate for Brokers. Whether it is true or not, I was told that working through a Broker is perfectly legal, even though it usually cost me more in taxes than working independently.  And that billing by a Broker at the common brokerage rate is also quite legal, even if that Broker is just a shell company.  The shell company may be operating illegally, but that is beyond my responsibility as a Predication Worker. TTUL Gary

Response:

Hi OB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Interesting point…. I would love to hear other posters’ ideas and experience on this aspect, especially from the ones that have a legal background. One of my clients formed a property management company.  He also owns a real estate agency.  From his previous arrangements/partnership agreements he takes 30% of any business he refers to some contractors (cleaning, painting, maintenance, etc.) As a part of his property management business he is expecting to use these contractors for managing the properties his company manages.  He owns/has controlling interest in some of the properties he manages.  Would this create a LEGAL problem as long as the owners(in some cases himself) of the properties are aware of the situation and the contractors he uses charge a fair price (at market value or less).  The amount they charge would not be increased for the commissions they paid for referral.  Would this still be considered a kick-back? Any ideas are appreciated OB

In this scenario what is going on is completely legal! In fact, it falls right in line with the majority of service businesses. You call Bob’s Place for Service and place an order to have a job done.  Bob calls the company on his list and they go do the work. That company bills Bob, Bob ups the price and bills you. Bob technically is NOT in the Service business, he is a BROKER who finds jobs for those already in the service business, or he may have his own crew paid at a different hourly rate than you are paying to Bob. Regarding the latter part of your question regarding property management situations.  I think I see what you are illuding too, but it is not as uncommon as one would think. Bob owns a truck leasing company, he just happens to also own an XYZ truck dealership as well. Bob is part owner in a major local parts distributorship also. As part owner of the parts shop, he suggests leasing their parts delivery vehicles from Bob’s truck leasing since they have offered the best lease contract to the parts company. As the leasing agent, Bob suggests using XYZ brand trucks to the parts company as ABC brand trucks would be slightly higher in cost to lease and maintain. As the XYZ truck dealership, Bob sells X number of XYZ brand trucks to Bob’s Leasing company.  Bob’s Leasing gets a 10% discount for buying from Bob’x XYZ truck dealership. Nothing illegal there, XYZ sold the trucks for less, the leasing company purchased at a 10% discount. The leasing company leases X number of trucks to the parts company and also offers them a 5% discount for using XYZ brand trucks instead of ABC brand trucks. Nothing illegal there either, the leasing company rented the trucks for less than normal, the parts company got a 5% discount. As part owner of the Parts Distributorship, BOB will realize an increase in his income through the lower expenses of vehicle leasing. As owner of the Leasing Company, Bob will realize his standard 30% profit less 5% of the lease contract on each vehicle. As owner of the XYZ Truck Dealership, Bob will earn his regualar commission on the sale of each truck less the 10% discount he gave to the leasing company. This is a win, win, win, win situation all the way around! The parts company saved money 5%, The leasing company saved money 10%, The truck dealership made bulk sales of vehicles, And Bob made out like a bandit on each transaction of each company. A lot of companies work internally almost that same way! Company divisions sell to other company divisions at a profit for each division.  In some companies this would be illegal, but for most large companies it is common business practice to work this way.  Money does not necessarily have to change hands.  Company divisions work within assigned budgets, their goal is to remain under budget in the product or part that division is responsible for. They make deals on raw materials, make deals on equipment and processes and deliver a component part to the next division at a fixed value.  As the wheel spins, each division is earning or losing budget points. I have a question about a situation that I will post separately regarding my own companies and whether something is legal or illegal. As far as the IRS is concerned, for business tax purposes it is perfectly legal to continue as before, even though changes in ownership of the vendors has taken place. It’s the position of the vendors that now comes into play and the legality of maintaining them as separate vendors. TTUL Gary

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I’m not a lawyer)  but I don’t believe this arrangement is illegal as long as the property owner can choose the contractor or the compensation arrangement is disclosed.  This is similar to the mortgage industry where mortgage companies use their appraisers, title examiners or pest inspectors, etc. and mark up the fees and bill (in the closing statement) to the borrower, I don’t know where you live, but a mark-up on the appraisal fee is prohibited by law. Pest inspection (the termite letter) is paid for by the seller directly, or from the sale proceeds.  While it could be possible that the lender (or the realtor) directs the seller to a certain company, I’ve never been aware of a fee being paid back to the realtor or lender for that. As far as title exam goes, the fees are so small it’s impossible to believe there is some left over to pay back to the lender. Now, title insurance most likely does pay a sales commission back to the lender. I have clients on all sides of the fence (realtors, mortgage brokers, title examiners, appraisal companies, pest control companies, etc) and just don’t see this. That in no way means that there isn’t "thank you" gifts and lunches being bought for your best referral sources. But that is common standard in lots of businesses.

for commercial loans (to businesses) "mark ups" use to be legal and for non-commercial (consumer)  if it’s disclosed it’s not prohibited by law (but I don’t know of any and just recently Bank One got in trouble for this) as I understand it now, banks are more creative in hiding this    - another example-   music companies cannot pay radio stations to play certain songs (payola) —  but they can pay "promotion" fees to the station

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – message Hi CM From my understanding (and past experience) it is completely illegal. It is also illegal to add a service fee or any additional charge for services/products rendered by others, when an existing firm used by the customer is handling the taking of orders for the firm supplying the services or products, in certain businesses.  Kickbacks to the firm taking the order is also illegal in certain businesses. Because I will get much flack over my above statement, I will give an example that can be easily checked upon. Your Local Funeral Home or Undertaker, if they provide the service of taking orders for the Local Florist from the family for the flowers used in that service, the Funeral Home MAY NOT mark up the cost of the flowers NOR charge for this service NOR take a kickback from the Florist for handling the paperwork for them. Of course they can charge a higher base charge for their total service package to make up for it as long as it is not explicity named as one of the charges. I don’t know if this is a Federal Law, State Law or just applies to Counties.  I do know it is the LAW in St. Louis County, MO and applies to hundreds of business types. TTUL Gary Interesting point…. I would love to hear other posters’ ideas and experience on this aspect, especially from the ones that have a legal background. One of my clients formed a property management company.  He also owns a real estate agency.  From his previous arrangements/partnership agreements he takes 30% of any business he refers to some contractors (cleaning, painting, maintenance, etc.) As a part of his property management business he is expecting to use these contractors for managing the properties his company manages.  He owns/has controlling interest in some of the properties he manages.  Would this create a LEGAL problem as long as the owners(in some cases himself) of the properties are aware of the situation and the contractors he uses charge a fair price (at market value or less).  The amount they charge would not be increased for the commissions they paid for referral.  Would this still be considered a kick-back? Any ideas are appreciated OB (I’m not a lawyer)  but I don’t believe this arrangement is illegal as long as the property owner can choose the contractor or the compensation arrangement is disclosed.  This is similar to the mortgage industry where mortgage companies use their appraisers, title examiners or pest inspectors, etc. and mark up the fees and bill (in the closing statement) to the borrower,

Thanks, thats what I thought… In this case there are no price mark-ups. So I believe we will be OK…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi CM From my understanding (and past experience) it is completely illegal. It is also illegal to add a service fee or any additional charge for services/products rendered by others, when an existing firm used by the customer is handling the taking of orders for the firm supplying the services or products, in certain businesses.  Kickbacks to the firm taking the order is also illegal in certain businesses. Because I will get much flack over my above statement, I will give an example that can be easily checked upon. Your Local Funeral Home or Undertaker, if they provide the service of taking orders for the Local Florist from the family for the flowers used in that service, the Funeral Home MAY NOT mark up the cost of the flowers NOR charge for this service NOR take a kickback from the Florist for handling the paperwork for them. Of course they can charge a higher base charge for their total service package to make up for it as long as it is not explicity named as one of the charges. I don’t know if this is a Federal Law, State Law or just applies to Counties.  I do know it is the LAW in St. Louis County, MO and applies to hundreds of business types. TTUL Gary Interesting point…. I would love to hear other posters’ ideas and experience on this aspect, especially from the ones that have a legal background. One of my clients formed a property management company.  He also owns a real estate agency.  From his previous arrangements/partnership agreements he takes 30% of any business he refers to some contractors (cleaning, painting, maintenance, etc.) As a part of his property management business he is expecting to use these contractors for managing the properties his company manages.  He owns/has controlling interest in some of the properties he manages.  Would this create a LEGAL problem as long as the owners(in some cases himself) of the properties are aware of the situation and the contractors he uses charge a fair price (at market value or less).  The amount they charge would not be increased for the commissions they paid for referral.  Would this still be considered a kick-back? Any ideas are appreciated OB

(I’m not a lawyer)  but I don’t believe this arrangement is illegal as long as the property owner can choose the contractor or the compensation arrangement is disclosed.  This is similar to the mortgage industry where mortgage companies use their appraisers, title examiners or pest inspectors, etc. and mark up the fees and bill (in the closing statement) to the borrower,

Response:

(I’m not a lawyer)  but I don’t believe this arrangement is illegal as long as the property owner can choose the contractor or the compensation arrangement is disclosed.  This is similar to the mortgage industry where mortgage companies use their appraisers, title examiners or pest inspectors, etc. and mark up the fees and bill (in the closing statement) to the borrower,

I don’t know where you live, but a mark-up on the appraisal fee is prohibited by law. Pest inspection (the termite letter) is paid for by the seller directly, or from the sale proceeds.  While it could be possible that the lender (or the realtor) directs the seller to a certain company, I’ve never been aware of a fee being paid back to the realtor or lender for that. As far as title exam goes, the fees are so small it’s impossible to believe there is some left over to pay back to the lender. Now, title insurance most likely does pay a sales commission back to the lender. I have clients on all sides of the fence (realtors, mortgage brokers, title examiners, appraisal companies, pest control companies, etc) and just don’t see this. That in no way means that there isn’t "thank you" gifts and lunches being bought for your best referral sources. But that is common standard in lots of businesses. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

I’ve discounted my rates to them in anticipation of getting more/regular contracts.  On my books, do I show the differential as a loss or other expense?  Example, my established rate is $90/hour and I discount to $70/hour to them – is that $20 difference shown anywhere at tax time?

You can not take an expense for an item that you never pay for.  Since you never "paid" that $20 per hour, you can’t take a "loss" for it. You report $70 of income for one hour, and that is that.  For the service business like yours, you report income as it is collected.  Don’t collect it?  It isn’t income. Comments?  My question would again be: is there any special accounting recommended if/when a loss is taken in the interest of getting regular business – could that differential be a sales/marketing expense?

If you didn’t pay for it in the past, aren’t paying for it now, and won’t pay for it in the future, it isn’t an expense. The difference in "could have" and "did" isn’t deductible. I "could have" billed you for $1,000,000 for this advice, but I didn’t, does not create a million dollar deduction for me. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

Hi CM From my understanding (and past experience) it is completely illegal. It is also illegal to add a service fee or any additional charge for services/products rendered by others, when an existing firm used by the customer is handling the taking of orders for the firm supplying the services or products, in certain businesses.  Kickbacks to the firm taking the order is also illegal in certain businesses. Because I will get much flack over my above statement, I will give an example that can be easily checked upon. Your Local Funeral Home or Undertaker, if they provide the service of taking orders for the Local Florist from the family for the flowers used in that service, the Funeral Home MAY NOT mark up the cost of the flowers NOR charge for this service NOR take a kickback from the Florist for handling the paperwork for them.   Of course they can charge a higher base charge for their total service package to make up for it as long as it is not explicity named as one of the charges. I don’t know if this is a Federal Law, State Law or just applies to Counties.  I do know it is the LAW in St. Louis County, MO and applies to hundreds of business types. TTUL Gary

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi CM From my understanding (and past experience) it is completely illegal. It is also illegal to add a service fee or any additional charge for services/products rendered by others, when an existing firm used by the customer is handling the taking of orders for the firm supplying the services or products, in certain businesses.  Kickbacks to the firm taking the order is also illegal in certain businesses. Because I will get much flack over my above statement, I will give an example that can be easily checked upon. Your Local Funeral Home or Undertaker, if they provide the service of taking orders for the Local Florist from the family for the flowers used in that service, the Funeral Home MAY NOT mark up the cost of the flowers NOR charge for this service NOR take a kickback from the Florist for handling the paperwork for them. Of course they can charge a higher base charge for their total service package to make up for it as long as it is not explicity named as one of the charges. I don’t know if this is a Federal Law, State Law or just applies to Counties.  I do know it is the LAW in St. Louis County, MO and applies to hundreds of business types. TTUL Gary

Interesting point…. I would love to hear other posters’ ideas and experience on this aspect, especially from the ones that have a legal background. One of my clients formed a property management company.  He also owns a real estate agency.  From his previous arrangements/partnership agreements he takes 30% of any business he refers to some contractors (cleaning, painting, maintenance, etc.) As a part of his property management business he is expecting to use these contractors for managing the properties his company manages.  He owns/has controlling interest in some of the properties he manages.  Would this create a LEGAL problem as long as the owners(in some cases himself) of the properties are aware of the situation and the contractors he uses charge a fair price (at market value or less).  The amount they charge would not be increased for the commissions they paid for referral.  Would this still be considered a kick-back? Any ideas are appreciated OB

Response:

One of my clients is a company that provides consulting services to others.  I bill them, they bill the end-user/client.  My bill to them includes travel expenses at a percentage of my agreed rate to them.  I believe their bill to their client includes my travel time calculated at their (higher) rate. – Is it ethical or legal for a company to charge a commission on, or otherwise alter the value of "hours" in travel expense? – At tax time, don’t they need to show my portion as expense but their commission as profit, as with any other line item?  (I don’t know if they plan to claim their entire line item to their client as a reimbursed travel expense, I’m just curious.) – Since we’re talking about time, is my time in the car simply "hours" to everyone, or is there special accounting for them and me where "travel time" is a specific line item in invoices? I’ve discounted my rates to them in anticipation of getting more/regular contracts.  On my books, do I show the differential as a loss or other expense?  Example, my established rate is $90/hour and I discount to $70/hour to them – is that $20 difference shown anywhere at tax time? Finally, and maybe I’m asking for an opinion here more than facts: I’ve been asked to bill my travel expenses using my client’s table, not my own.  For example, they bill travel expenses at 50%, one way, using their office as the point of origin.  My point of origin to some clients is much farther, and 50% of my discounted rate (per above) is only $35/hour, so if I’m in the car for 2 hours I may only be able to bill them for 30 minutes, which is $17.50.  At this rate I’d much rather press for phone time than on-site time.  My normal rate is 75% of actual time, not based on a pre-defined origin, so at my normal rate, that same trip would be 2*75=150, quite a difference from 17.50. My rate serves two purposes, first to discourage clients from requiring excessive travel from me, and second to make sure that if I am required to incur a lot of "down" time, that I don’t take a loss when prime time would otherwise be spent earning full-rate.  The current arrangement only proves my theory.  I’m considering making arrangements with them for me to bill on a table that isn’t tied to their own table for their clients.  They can charge whatever they want but if they want my services they’re going to have to pay my price. Comments?  My question would again be: is there any special accounting recommended if/when a loss is taken in the interest of getting regular business – could that differential be a sales/marketing expense? Thanks!

Response:

Question:

There are both hosted (online) and desktop auction management tools available that offer ad generation, bulk upload, automated emails etc., and also a wide variety of tools that specialise in very specific eBay buying and selling tasks. These FAQs help explain where the different types of eBay software and services fit in: http://www.auctionsoftwarereview.com/FAQs.asp

Response:

I’ve got a bunch of stuff I need to sell  over the next year and it looks like ebay is the place. Should I use what ebay provides or am I better off using freeware, shareware of some other package.  I want to be able to do the write-up, include a pix off-line and then upload at the appropriate time.  Once the bidding has ended I’d like something to be able to help me track what’s happened and keep me from being disoraganized.  If I haven’t covered and important point please let me know. Something that has the essential basics, and not lots of useless or undocumented  features that’s easy to use and helpful is the goal. tnx Hank WD5JFR

WE use Ebays selling manager pro, does all the above, and much more

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a bunch of stuff I need to sell  over the next year and it looks like ebay is the place. Should I use what ebay provides or am I better off using freeware, shareware of some other package.  I want to be able to do the write-up, include a pix off-line and then upload at the appropriate Turbo Lister (Free) and Shooting star ($30) is all the software you will ever need. Period. Mike

When using Turbo Lister, does ebay charge a fee to use one of the turbo lister templates ? I checked the fees listing, it wasn’t listed, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that there was a fee for it. (Or maybe I’m thinking of another software package). …Beth

Response:

We find the free Typing Master’s Quick Phrase is all we need. "We"?! Good God, man, I know you’re all over the place, but how many of you are there! — John http://rarebooksinjapan.com

Maybe Don refers to "we" in the same way the Queen of England refers to herself. ie: "we" are not amused.  "we" will reserve comments, etc. Beth

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend just told me Auction Submit was recommended to him but he’s never used it.  Comments? tnx Hank WD5JFR I’ve got a bunch of stuff I need to sell  over the next year and it looks like ebay is the place. Should I use what ebay provides or am I better off using freeware, shareware of some other package.  I want to be able to do the write-up, include a pix off-line and then upload at the appropriate time.  Once the bidding has ended I’d like something to be able to help me track what’s happened and keep me from being disoraganized.  If I haven’t covered and important point please let me know. Something that has the essential basics, and not lots of useless or undocumented  features that’s easy to use and helpful is the goal. tnx Hank WD5JFR

I used auction submit for years when I first began. It is a very easy to learn and usable program for the beginner. It keeps track of running auctions, auctions that have ended, and it allows you to create as many auctions as you want offline and then bulk upload all at once.  I think that would be a good choice for someone just beginning. However, if you are planning on running many auctions at once, there isn’t any way to control the work flow. I used to have to print out every auction and keep it in a binder and write down everything manually. After I started selling many items, It was too confusing. What I would LOVE to see (and I have not found one yet)  is ONE complete software package that would integrate an HTML ad generator, bulk upload feature, auction management workflow, email assistant to automate the email process AND also handle all the accounting details and produce reports evaluating auction sales. ..Beth

Response:

We find the free Typing Master’s Quick Phrase is all we need.

"We"?! Good God, man, I know you’re all over the place, but how many of you are there! — John http://rarebooksinjapan.com

Response:

A friend just told me Auction Submit was recommended to him but he’s never used it.  Comments? tnx Hank WD5JFR

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got a bunch of stuff I need to sell  over the next year and it looks like ebay is the place. Should I use what ebay provides or am I better off using freeware, shareware of some other package.  I want to be able to do the write-up, include a pix off-line and then upload at the appropriate time.  Once the bidding has ended I’d like something to be able to help me track what’s happened and keep me from being disoraganized.  If I haven’t covered and important point please let me know. Something that has the essential basics, and not lots of useless or undocumented  features that’s easy to use and helpful is the goal. tnx Hank WD5JFR

Response:

We find the free Typing Master’s Quick Phrase is all we need. "We"?! Good God, man, I know you’re all over the place, but how many of you are there! — John http://rarebooksinjapan.com

We are a consortium of 42 different authors. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

I’ve got a bunch of stuff I need to sell  over the next year and it looks like ebay is the place. Should I use what ebay provides or am I better off using freeware, shareware of some other package.  I want to be able to do the write-up, include a pix off-line and then upload at the appropriate time.  Once the bidding has ended I’d like something to be able to help me track what’s happened and keep me from being disoraganized.  If I haven’t covered and important point please let me know. Something that has the essential basics, and not lots of useless or undocumented  features that’s easy to use and helpful is the goal. tnx Hank WD5JFR

We find the free Typing Master’s Quick Phrase is all we need. Additional tools at http://www.tinaja.com/auct01.asp — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

Turbo Lister (Free) and Shooting star ($30) is all the software you will ever need. Period. Mike

Shooting star is now $49.95, but there are more scaled down basic versions selling on ebay for 9.95. …Beth

Response:

I’ve got a bunch of stuff I need to sell  over the next year and it looks like ebay is the place. Should I use what ebay provides or am I better off using freeware, shareware of some other package.  I want to be able to do the write-up, include a pix off-line and then upload at the appropriate

Turbo Lister (Free) and Shooting star ($30) is all the software you will ever need. Period. Mike

Response:

I’ve got a bunch of stuff I need to sell  over the next year and it looks like ebay is the place. Should I use what ebay provides or am I better off using freeware, shareware of some other package.  I want to be able to do the write-up, include a pix off-line and then upload at the appropriate time.  Once the bidding has ended I’d like something to be able to help me track what’s happened and keep me from being disoraganized.  If I haven’t covered and important point please let me know. Something that has the essential basics, and not lots of useless or undocumented  features that’s easy to use and helpful is the goal. tnx Hank WD5JFR

Response:

Question:

Has anyone used the Wiley’s CPA study guides (computer program or 4 vol. set of books) to prepare for the exam? how effective was it? is it a reasonable substitue to a review course like Becker or Kaplan? -JK

Response:

If you have pretty good understanding of what you learn when taking the accounting courses, I would say the CPA study aids are good enough for preparing for the exam.  If you have trouble understanding the accounting concept, taking some review courses may help you improve your grasp of the concepts or at least help you memorize them.  However, I would go back to the basic (e.g. reading an intermediate /advanced accounting textbook) and make sure you really understand. Arthur

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone used the Wiley’s CPA study guides (computer program or 4 vol. set of books) to prepare for the exam? how effective was it? is it a reasonable substitue to a review course like Becker or Kaplan? -JK

Response:

Don’t go back to reading an intermediate textbook,this is a waste. The int accounting book, audit book, business law book, etc covers the material in a much greater detail than you need to know.  The thing about the CPA exam is that it covers a huge breadth of information in some level of detail.  Problem is you need to now this "some level of detail" very well for all topics.     Use the study notes from Becker/Conviser.  More importantly, answer the multiple choice questions over and over and learn why a particular choice is the correct one and the others are not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you have pretty good understanding of what you learn when taking the accounting courses, I would say the CPA study aids are good enough for preparing for the exam.  If you have trouble understanding the accounting concept, taking some review courses may help you improve your grasp of the concepts or at least help you memorize them.  However, I would go back to the basic (e.g. reading an intermediate /advanced accounting textbook) and make sure you really understand. Arthur Has anyone used the Wiley’s CPA study guides (computer program or 4 vol.  set of books) to prepare for the exam? how effective was it? is it a reasonable substitue to a review course like Becker or Kaplan? -JK

Response:

Don’t go back to reading an intermediate textbook,this is a waste. The int accounting book, audit book, business law book, etc covers the material in a much greater detail than you need to know.  The thing about the CPA exam is that it covers a huge breadth of information in some level of detail.  Problem is you need to now this "some level of detail" very well for all topics.     Use the study notes from Becker/Conviser.  More importantly, answer the multiple choice questions over and over and learn why a particular choice is the correct one and the others are not.

I am using the Gliem questions on the computer. Should I focus on the CPA questions, or include the Gliem specific ones that apparently are there to teach something? with respect, Roger R.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you have pretty good understanding of what you learn when taking the accounting courses, I would say the CPA study aids are good enough for preparing for the exam.  If you have trouble understanding the accounting concept, taking some review courses may help you improve your grasp of the concepts or at least help you memorize them.  However, I would go back to the basic (e.g. reading an intermediate /advanced accounting textbook) and make sure you really understand. Arthur Has anyone used the Wiley’s CPA study guides (computer program or 4 vol.  set of books) to prepare for the exam? how effective was it? is it a reasonable substitue to a review course like Becker or Kaplan? -JK

Response:

Question:

Manufacturing Overhead.

Hello everyone, I’m trying to find the answer to this question, but it’s not in any textbook I own, and two CPA’s have given me the run around. When using Job Order Costing, do you capitalize the company’s share of payroll taxes as Direct Labor or as Manufacturing Overhead? If neither, is this simply a period expense? I’m trying to develop a job-order costing system for a small auto shop, and the difference in each method is highly material. Thanks for your help. Robert Path:

news.uni-stuttgart.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com ! newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!u_n_a__c_ancel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: comp.lang.c,alt.accounting Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 2 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.77.196.2 X-No-Archive: yes Xref: news.uni-stuttgart.de control:40458963 autocancel

Response:

Hello everyone, I’m trying to find the answer to this question, but it’s not in any textbook I own, and two CPA’s have given me the run around. When using Job Order Costing, do you capitalize the company’s share of payroll taxes as Direct Labor or as Manufacturing Overhead? If neither, is this simply a period expense? I’m trying to develop a job-order costing system for a small auto shop, and the difference in each method is highly material. Thanks for your help. Robert Path: news.uni-stuttgart.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com !newsfeed.bcn.ttd.net!news.bcn.ttd.net!u_n_a__c_ancel Newsgroups: comp.lang.c,alt.accounting Organization: Telefonica Transmision de Datos Lines: 2 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.77.196.2 X-No-Archive: yes Xref: news.uni-stuttgart.de control:40458963 autocancel

Response:

Question:

I have what I admit must be an elementary accounting question, one that I’ve bounced around in my head for a number of years — how does one handles investments in the double-entry bookkeeping regime (a few years ago I taught myself elementary double-entry bookkeeping just because and actually spent a few months doing it by hand on my personal finances for practice .  I have long since stopped doing this and just use Money for my finances (I’m a software engineer W-2 person, so there’s no business stuff — i.e. real accounting needs — to deal with.  (Though the fact that Money treats payments of principal on loans as *expenses* drives me nuts…I have in fact created a whole bunch of asset and liability accounts to simulate double-entry bookkeeping within Money…oh well . Anyways, regular income and expenses I have no problem with.  For example, when a cash sale of $100 occurs, the Cash account under Assets is debited $100 (DRs increase the balance of Asset accounts if I remember correctly) and the offsetting credit of $100 (CRs increase the balance of Revenue accounts if I remember correctly) is made to the Gross Sales income account.  DRs=CRs and all is right with the world.  Then at the end of the month (or whatever accounting period) an adjusting transaction is made where Gross Income is debited by its full amount to reduce its balance to zero and Equity is credited that amount — as part of closing all the income and expense accounts into the Equity account. But what happens with investments that change in value?  I suppose the balance sheet can always be made to balance by just noting that investments went up $1000 and therefore one must increase Equity by $1000 to make it balance and not enter a transaction.  Or does one put in a transaction debit the Investment asset account $1000 and credit Equity $1000 (same result as above, but with a formal transaction in place on the books)?  Both of these approaches bug the anal-retentive side of me because there is no tie-in to the income statement.  Yes, Assets = Liabilities + Equity as always, but the Equity[this period] = Net Income + Equity[last period] relation no longer holds because the change in investment value is "off the books", as it were. So out in the real world (say at a mutual fund, or a corporation that has a lot of its assets invested in stock, or even something as mundane as an investment club), how is this handled?  Are there income accounts for Investment Gains for which transactions are entered debiting and crediting between it and investment Asset accounts?  Is Investment Gains (if such accounts exist) broken into Realized Gains, Unrealized Gains, and various current income (i.e.  dividends, interest, etc) accounts, all of which are closed into Equity at the end of the various accounting periods?  Or even here are the investment gains and losses left off the income statement but show up on the balance sheet? —

Response:

In accordance with Generally Accepted Accounting Principals (GAAP) unrealized holding gains/losses should not impact current earning. At the end of any reporting period, changes in market value are reported directly to the equity section of the balance sheet. The method I use to account for these changes are as follows: Set up a contra account offsetting investments called "Allowance for mark to market" and an equity account called unrealized gains/losses. If the market value is higher than the recorded cost then a journal entry is made recording this change as follows: Allowance for mark to market            xxxxxx Unrealized Gain/Loss                                       xxxxxx If the value went down, then the entry would be reversed. In any event if you are not reporting on a GAAP basis but on an Income Tax Basis, revaluing marketable securities is not necessary. Allan Martin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have what I admit must be an elementary accounting question, one that I’ve bounced around in my head for a number of years — how does one handles investments in the double-entry bookkeeping regime (a few years ago I taught myself elementary double-entry bookkeeping just because and actually spent a few months doing it by hand on my personal finances for practice .  I have long since stopped doing this and just use Money for my finances (I’m a software engineer W-2 person, so there’s no business stuff — i.e. real accounting needs — to deal with.  (Though the fact that Money treats payments of principal on loans as *expenses* drives me nuts…I have in fact created a whole bunch of asset and liability accounts to simulate double-entry bookkeeping within Money…oh well . Anyways, regular income and expenses I have no problem with.  For example, when a cash sale of $100 occurs, the Cash account under Assets is debited $100 (DRs increase the balance of Asset accounts if I remember correctly) and the offsetting credit of $100 (CRs increase the balance of Revenue accounts if I remember correctly) is made to the Gross Sales income account.  DRs=CRs and all is right with the world.  Then at the end of the month (or whatever accounting period) an adjusting transaction is made where Gross Income is debited by its full amount to reduce its balance to zero and Equity is credited that amount — as part of closing all the income and expense accounts into the Equity account. But what happens with investments that change in value?  I suppose the balance sheet can always be made to balance by just noting that investments went up $1000 and therefore one must increase Equity by $1000 to make it balance and not enter a transaction.  Or does one put in a transaction debit the Investment asset account $1000 and credit Equity $1000 (same result as above, but with a formal transaction in place on the books)?  Both of these approaches bug the anal-retentive side of me because there is no tie-in to the income statement.  Yes, Assets = Liabilities + Equity as always, but the Equity[this period] = Net Income + Equity[last period] relation no longer holds because the change in investment value is "off the books", as it were. So out in the real world (say at a mutual fund, or a corporation that has a lot of its assets invested in stock, or even something as mundane as an investment club), how is this handled?  Are there income accounts for Investment Gains for which transactions are entered debiting and crediting between it and investment Asset accounts?  Is Investment Gains (if such accounts exist) broken into Realized Gains, Unrealized Gains, and various current income (i.e.  dividends, interest, etc) accounts, all of which are closed into Equity at the end of the various accounting periods?  Or even here are the investment gains and losses left off the income statement but show up on the balance sheet? —

Response:

In accordance with Generally Accepted Accounting Principals (GAAP) unrealized holding gains/losses should not impact current earning. At the end of any reporting period, changes in market value are reported directly to the equity section of the balance sheet.

Well, since we all that was a big "no no" (you never took things directly to equity but always ran it through income <grin), FASB created the "Statement of Comprehensive Income" that holds many (but not all) such adjustments.  As I recall, "trading" securities do go directly to the P&L statement, while available for sale securities go the route you mentioned (passing through the statement of comprehensive income along the way).

Response:

Question:

We run Simply Accounting v7.0 on a Compaq (5457).  Lately, when we print out an invoice, the date does not show up even though it is on the invoice on the screen.  The only other person I have found having this problem is also running it on a Compaq computer.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Response:

I’m not using a Compaq, but I have found that this happens in simply if you try to print an invoice that is post dated, and have not setup the system to do so.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We run Simply Accounting v7.0 on a Compaq (5457).  Lately, when we print out an invoice, the date does not show up even though it is on the invoice on the screen.  The only other person I have found having this problem is also running it on a Compaq computer.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Response:

Question:

Hello!  I work for a small non-profit and our accountants currently have us using Checkbook Solutions.  We find it hard to deal with and would like to change to Quickbooks.  Any thoughts? Thanks in advance! — Robin Beruh Cancer Caring Center http://trfn.clpgh.org/cancercaring

Response:

Qb is a better product with significant reporting and analytical capabilities that cbs does not (or didn’t use to)have. Your accountants may not like it, but they should respect your desire to have a more flexible and capable product. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello!  I work for a small non-profit and our accountants currently have us using Checkbook Solutions.  We find it hard to deal with and would like to change to Quickbooks.  Any thoughts? Thanks in advance! — Robin Beruh Cancer Caring Center http://trfn.clpgh.org/cancercaring

Response:

Qb is a better product with significant reporting and analytical capabilities that cbs does not (or didn’t use to)have. Your accountants may not like it, but they should respect your desire to have a more flexible and capable product. Hello!  I work for a small non-profit and our accountants currently have us using Checkbook Solutions.  We find it hard to deal with and would like to change to Quickbooks.  Any thoughts?

I agree, as does almost everyone. QB is, by far, the largest selling small business accounting package. An inexpensive bridge products transfer QB data to the Creative Solutions package your accountant uses. He may be make you work longer and harder, with less results, because he does not know this, or because the limited Checkbook Solutions feature make you need him more. Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A., 954-566-7540, fax 7541   QuickBooks Prof. Advisor & Official QB 6 Top Tester   biz.comp.accounting co-moderator for spam free news    275 E Oakland Park Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334

Response:

I agree, as does almost everyone. QB is, by far, the largest selling small business accounting package. An inexpensive bridge products transfer QB data to the Creative Solutions package your accountant uses. He may be make you work longer and harder, with less results, because he does not know this, or because the limited Checkbook Solutions feature make you need him more.

Creative Solutions’ Writeup-related products are, without question, some of the most poorly designed software I’ve seen.  Just horrible.  Unfortunately, they are the only game in town for straight writeup.  But the "checkbook solution" is useless crap.  In my opinion….

Response:

Question:

I am looking for more information on consolidation.  Basically where larger corporations buy smaller growing companies.  This company is in the Telecommunications Industry.  The companies CPA wanted me to look on the web He gave a list of a few companies such as clover communications Comuter Company of America Bell South Lucent Technology Thank You, Shawn Brown

Response:

This is a highly technical area.  Why not try an advanced accounting text instead?  If you are an accounting layperson, I assure you that it will be difficult to follow; however, it should give you a good overview of the subject matter — I assume you just need a feel.

I am looking for more information on consolidation.  Basically where larger corporations buy smaller growing companies.  This company is in the Telecommunications Industry.  The companies CPA wanted me to look on the web for information.  If you can help e-mail me at:

He gave a list of a few companies such as clover communications Comuter Company of America Bell South Lucent Technology Thank You, Shawn Brown ==—–

newsreading

Response:

Re: Shawn Brown’s 4/29/98 posting that created the thread above Hi Shawn Brown: When companies acquire other companies the accountant has to consider several matters.  These include: 1. How does the acquiring company account for the acquisition of the acquired company? There are generally two ways to do this. One is called a "purchase" and usually comes into play when cash is paid for the acquired company. The other method (whose name escapes me) comes into play when the acquiring company uses its stock as consideraion to buy the acquired company. 2. The process of consolidating the accounting records of the acquired company with those of the acquiring company depend on the method used to record the acquisition in number 1 above. All the above may sound confusing but if you look into an "Advanced Accounting" college text book, you should find several chapters on acqisitions and consolidations, including sample journal entries. I hope that this gives you a brief overview of this complex area of accounting and bookkeeping.  The tax aspects of the above also have to be considered. Best regards, Al Gershen, Grants Pass, OR, USA Have a good day (or night) on the web. Also, WEBTV "really" works great!

Response:

Question:

I have the opportunity to recommend a new accounting software package for a law firm. Clients will be Win95/WinNT, Server will be WinNT, TCP/IP. Owners want multiuser capability. The 2-3 users may be concurrently using the package at a time.If you had the opportunity to start from scratch what software would you recommend? People have said Quickbooks and Peachtree……any comments on this would be appreciated ! Matt

Response:

You might check out P-tree 2000. It’s more expensive. P-tree for Windows does have a connection to TimeSlips. Dana

Response:

You might look at Peachtree 6.0 or Peachtree 2000.  6.0 has a time and billing add on module that might be helpful. You can check out their products at http://www.peachtree.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the opportunity to recommend a new accounting software package for a law firm. Clients will be Win95/WinNT, Server will be WinNT, TCP/IP. Owners want multiuser capability. The 2-3 users may be concurrently using the package at a time.If you had the opportunity to start from scratch what software would you recommend? People have said Quickbooks and Peachtree……any comments on this would be appreciated ! Matt

Response:

Peachtree would be the obvious choice for multiuser capability since Quickbooks is not multiuser.  But you may want to look to the Attorney Associations to see what they might recomend.  If nothing there look to the AICPA. They will allow for more flexibility and more stability that the low end solutions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the opportunity to recommend a new accounting software package for a law firm. Clients will be Win95/WinNT, Server will be WinNT, TCP/IP. Owners want multiuser capability. The 2-3 users may be concurrently using the package at a time.If you had the opportunity to start from scratch what software would you recommend? People have said Quickbooks and Peachtree……any comments on this would be appreciated ! Matt

Response:

Peachtree would be the obvious choice for multiuser capability since Quickbooks is not multiuser.  But you may want to look to the Attorney Associations to see what they might recommend.  If nothing there look to the AICPA. They will allow for more flexibility and more stability that the low end solutions.

QuickBooks is much easier & more powerful (77% of small business market vs ??). It is now beta testing a multi-user product that should allow 25 users.         mike block – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the opportunity to recommend a new accounting software package for a law firm. Clients will be Win95/WinNT, Server will be WinNT, TCP/IP. Owners want multiuser capability. The 2-3 users may be concurrently using the package at a time.If you had the opportunity to start from scratch what software would you recommend? People have said Quickbooks and Peachtree……any comments on this would be appreciated ! Matt

Mike Block, C.P.A. Tax Fighter, QuickBooks Professional Advisor 275 E Oakland Park Blvd, Ft Lauderdale, FL 33334;  954-566-7540       biz.comp.accounting co-moderator for spam free news!             No tax increases without voter approval!

Response:

Just because a product has a large market share does not make it a better product, just beeter advertised.  As far as ease of use goes I can’t see the difference and I have both products. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peachtree would be the obvious choice for multiuser capability since Quickbooks is not multiuser.  But you may want to look to the Attorney Associations to see what they might recommend.  If nothing there look to the AICPA. They will allow for more flexibility and more stability that the low end solutions. QuickBooks is much easier & more powerful (77% of small business market vs ??). It is now beta testing a multi-user product that should allow 25 users.    mike block I have the opportunity to recommend a new accounting software package for a law firm. Clients will be Win95/WinNT, Server will be WinNT, TCP/IP. Owners want multiuser capability. The 2-3 users may be concurrently using the package at a time.If you had the opportunity to start from scratch what software would you recommend? People have said Quickbooks and Peachtree……any comments on this would be appreciated ! Matt ==—– newsreading Mike Block, C.P.A. Tax Fighter, QuickBooks Professional Advisor 275 E Oakland Park Blvd, Ft Lauderdale, FL 33334;  954-566-7540       biz.comp.accounting co-moderator for spam free news!             No tax increases without voter approval!

Response:

Just because a product has a large market share does not make it a better product, just beeter advertised.  As far as ease of use goes I can’t see the difference and I have both products.

I agree, I have earlier versions of Peachtree and Qbooks 5 and they offer about the same thing for a low price.  For a 20 person law firm, I would give Peachtree the edge with its time and billing add-on and multi-user capability.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peachtree would be the obvious choice for multiuser capability since Quickbooks is not multiuser.  But you may want to look to the Attorney Associations to see what they might recommend.  If nothing there look to the AICPA. They will allow for more flexibility and more stability that the low end solutions. QuickBooks is much easier & more powerful (77% of small business market vs. It is now beta testing a multi-user product that should allow 25 users.       mike block I have the opportunity to recommend a new accounting software package for a law firm. Clients will be Win95/WinNT, Server will be WinNT, TCP/IP. Owners  want multiuser capability. The 2-3 users may be concurrently using the package at a time.If you had the opportunity to start from scratch what software would you recommend? People have said Quickbooks and Peachtree……any comments on this would be appreciated ! Matt

Response:

There are some accounting systems specific to the legal industry that provide for some unusual requirements, such as trust accounts, retainers, and client expenses.  Also, legal industry packages tend to provide some case and docket management features.   You need to look through some of the legal trade magazines and you’ll quickly know what’s out there.  Quicken/Peachtree are appropriate for the smaller 1-2 man shops, but after that, you should spring for a more specialized product… David Ray CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just because a product has a large market share does not make it a better product, just beeter advertised.  As far as ease of use goes I can’t see the difference and I have both products. Peachtree would be the obvious choice for multiuser capability since Quickbooks is not multiuser.  But you may want to look to the Attorney Associations to see what they might recommend.  If nothing there look to the AICPA. They will allow for more flexibility and more stability that the low end solutions. QuickBooks is much easier & more powerful (77% of small business market vs ??). It is now beta testing a multi-user product that should allow 25 users.       mike block I have the opportunity to recommend a new accounting software package for a law firm. Clients will be Win95/WinNT, Server will be WinNT, TCP/IP. Owners want multiuser capability. The 2-3 users may be concurrently using the package at a time.If you had the opportunity to start from scratch what software would you recommend? People have said Quickbooks and Peachtree……any comments on this would be appreciated ! Matt ==—– newsreading Mike Block, C.P.A. Tax Fighter, QuickBooks Professional Advisor 275 E Oakland Park Blvd, Ft Lauderdale, FL 33334;  954-566-7540       biz.comp.accounting co-moderator for spam free news!             No tax increases without voter approval!

Response:

PCLaw or PCLawJr is a good package for law firms.  Jr. is a downsized version and less expensive. They provide accounting functions and client services and billing.

Response:

I’ve used them both too and really it is a toss-up, except – if it has to be put in before this summer then P-tree. Either have sufficient power for this size firm. P-2000 is probably overkill. I personally like Q-books Pro better and am now beta testing the multi-user version (due out this summer) and am impressed. You just can’t beat its ease-of-use. Law firms do have special time-keeping requirements, but both have a sufficiently flexible mechanism to handle these needs. The price and quality for either can’t be beat as I think you will find – the next step up in any direction sacrifices some features to get robustness and will cost thousands more. I have a client who has 400 employees (950 ytd – turnover) and Q-books pro handles that with no problem (plus we did a special tie-in to their electronic time-keeper which it accommodates gracefully), so don’t let anyone bluff you that it is not robust even at this price. I say this in anticipation of the snob-factor I suspect you will not find such a deal for their document management problems. Good Luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the opportunity to recommend a new accounting software package for a law firm. Clients will be Win95/WinNT, Server will be WinNT, TCP/IP. Owners want multiuser capability. The 2-3 users may be concurrently using the package at a time.If you had the opportunity to start from scratch what software would you recommend? People have said Quickbooks and Peachtree……any comments on this would be appreciated ! Matt

Response:

Question:

In article and Stevia has been approved which is ideal for diabetics because it is food and not an additive, and helps in the metabolism of sugar.

Betty, Betty, Betty… sigh… we’ve asked you to prove this claim regarding Stevia, and you have not, nor will you ever, because it is complete b.s. Also, be sure to read the story of Joyce Wilson who went blind and died on NutraSweet that is also on the auto-responder.  

This folks, is called LIBEL, a written statement that damages someone’s reputation because it is untrue.  In this case, there is no proof that Joyce Wilson "died on Nutrasweet."  I am forwarding this claim to the makers of Nutrasweet, perhaps they will be interested in shutting Martini up. What amazes me is the number of people that actually believe the stuff she posts.  P.T. Barnum was a greater visionary than I had ever imagined. Steve

Response:

Dear Katie:  I don’t know whether you got the information you wanted because we had a problem when we were so swamped with hundreds of requests. But I wanted to let you know that now we have everything you want on an auto-responder including a safe-sweetener list, and Stevia has been approved which is ideal for diabetics because it is food and not an additive, and helps in the metabolism of sugar.  It’s on the auto-responder too.  However, your health food store will have many alternatives. So sorry for being so long in answering.  I do answer all email but at one time I had hundreds of requests at one time, and had a problem. Also, be sure to read the story of Joyce Wilson who went blind and died on NutraSweet that is also on the auto-responder.   I’ve never heard of estesa?  Is this spelled right?  I would be interested. A national boycott was filed by Return to Eden.  They admitted to about 30 products or more.  The information they sent was absolutely incorrect. We sent it back quoted from official sources and give them unrefutable evidence that aspartame is a poison.  They disregarded it.  I asked them if SEnator Orrin Hatch had anything to do with Twin Labs and they wouldn’t respond. Senator Orrin Hatch is the one that stopped the bill that would have put a warning on aspartame, and required "independent" testing by the National Institute of Health on the problems being observed in the population.  Hatch has strong loyalty to Monsanto.  You will find the bill on the auto-responder.   To make sure you don’t have problems getting a directory I’ll send it to you and our warning flyer, and a post about diabetes. You have to type exactly in the subject line like this to get the directory: Also be sure to read the Toxic Times article on the auto-responder written about the independent testing of aspartame that many may not know about.  The references and citations to this article are also on the respnder and number about 57.  All independent double-blind controlled studies showed aspartame to be a poison with disastrous results.   If I haven’t answered all your questions be sure to let me know. Regards, Betty Betty Martini             1.  Take the 60-day No-Aspartame test Mission Possible                 and send us your case history. PO Box 28098              2.  Tell your doctor and your friends. Atlanta GA  30358         3.  Return Aspar-Poisoned foods to the store. USA                           (Nutrasweet(tm), Equal(tm), Spoonful(tm), etc) We are dedicated to the proposition that we will not be satisfied until death and disability are no longer considered an acceptable cost of business. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : We are still checking on others as people are reporting getting sick on : Twin Labs products.  Also, keep in mind that aspartame (marketed as : NutraSweet/Equal/Spoonful, etc.) IS NOT A DIET PRODUCT!!!  In the : Congressional Record of August, 1985 it says: I know your mad a twin labs, and you have a right to be, but dont you think its pretty funny that DIET COKE and DIET PEPSI use ASPARTAME in : "Aspartame has been demonstrated to inhibit the carbohydrate induced : synthesis of the neurotransmitter serotonin.  (Wurtman affidavit).   : Serotonin blunts the sensation of craving carbohydrates and thus is part : of the body’s feedback system that helps limit consumption to appropriate : levels.  Its inhibition by aspartame could lead to the anomalous result : of a diet product causing increased consumption of carbohydrates." : Translation:  Use aspartame and get fat! oh man..this is good.. fucking jerks  sit there and put all this asperatin in there Low cal products, so we will eat more of them.. This is it.. no MOre Asprashit for me! : the General Accounting Office reported on its two-year investigation of : aspartame stating more than half the scientists surveyed were concerned : about the neurological reactions and other potential adverse effects of : aspartame in children.       40% called for further research :                              32% sought new warnings :                              15% suggested a TOTAL BAN! : Our last letter to Twin Labs said: "It boils down to this!  Does Twin : Labs have the integrity and respectability as well as concern for the : consumer public to withdraw this poison?  Or does Twin Labs stand loyally : by Monsanto and care less about the safety of its products." : They answered me 10/25/95 declaring they will continue to use aspartame.   : They were sent voluminous data.  They have the 95 FDA report of 92 : documented symptoms from coma to death and the 10,000 complaints listed : in the April complaint report.  They even have the report by the late FDA : toxicologist, Dr. Adrian Gross, who told Congress aspartame violated the : Delaney Amendment because it causes brain tumors.  And on and on and on, : but Twin Labs ignored everything! Listen.. I dont really thinkits twin labs total problem, I think the FDA must answer for this… THe FDA says that this shit is ok to USe.. and now, even for baked goods!.. I dont understand Why the FDA is Not looking into this.. must be because of fucking money! ugh! : Also Stevia has been approved by the FDA as a dietary supplement.  It is : not only sweet but assists in the metabolism of sugar and fights bacteria – : ideal for diabetics.  As more and more physicians find out that aspartame : contains methanol, a human specific poison, that converts to formaldehyde : and formic acid (even in the retina of the eye) they are outraged.  You : can imagine how hazardous wood alcohol is to the diabetic.   : We have a resource list on Stevia for those who want it, and aspartame : information is available on request.   Send me the info! also I think the estesa company uses aspartame in there products.. these products are for diabetics, and can be found in most large super markets. You might want to look into them, maybe ask them to switch or check out stevia

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Lately I’ve had this persistent, absolutely unquenchable thirst. Blood sugar problems exist in my family so I’ve got an appointment to have that possibility checked out, but I’ve recently started taking a multivitamin supplement, and I’m wondering if that might have something to do with it. Are there vitamins/minerals which can cause excessive thirst/ excessive urination in certain amounts?  Everywhere I’ve looked I’ve been able to find out which vitamins have potential toxicity, but they never say *how* the toxicity manifests. FYI, the supplements are giving me the following: A                      133% RDA C                      220% D                      142% E                       67% K                         *  (no RDA and I can’t recall the IU #) Thiamin                667% Riboflavin             667% Niacin                 250% B6                     700% Folate                  67% B12                    167% Biotin                   7% Pantothenic Acid       120% Calcium                 82% Iron                    67% Phosphorus              62% Iodine                  67% Magnesium               80% Zinc                    67% Selenium                  *  (no RDA and I can’t recall the IU#) Copper                 100% Manganese                 *  (no RDA and I can’t recall the IU#) (All in all, not excessive compared to other standard multivitamins I’ve seen and used.) One person has mentioned that he thought vitamin A had a drying effect on some tissues.  Any vitamin gurus out there?        colette           )._.,–….,’“.                        `._.-(,_..’–(,_..’`-.;.’

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] ]Lately I’ve had this persistent, absolutely unquenchable thirst. ]Blood sugar problems exist in my family so I’ve got an appointment ]to have that possibility checked out, but I’ve recently started ]taking a multivitamin supplement, and I’m wondering if that might ]have something to do with it. Thank you to everyone who responded (I’m sorry I didn’t respond to each of you individually).  The general consensus is that it’s nigh unto impossible that the vitamins are responsible for my symptoms. I figured as much, but the onset of the symptoms coincided so perfectly with my beginning the supplements that I thought it worth asking.  I know that there are people out there who are more knowledgable than I about such things. For those who have expressed concern, I do have an appointment with my HMO physician next Thursday, and I’ve called the ADA in Chicago to ask for a list of hospitals that do free diabetes screening (in case my HMO balks).  But, I’ve gotten the sense from some of you that maybe there should be more urgency to this. Would symtoms of unquenchable thirst, excessive urination (and recently ravenous hunger, too) warrant a visit to the ER?  Should I call my HMO and demand that someone see me immediately?  I mean I don’t feel sick or anything… just really thirsty and hungry.        colette           )._.,–….,’“.                        `._.-(,_..’–(,_..’`-.;.’

Response:

<<Are there vitamins/minerals which can cause excessive thirst/ excessive urination in certain amounts?  Everywhere I’ve looked I’ve been able to find out which vitamins have potential toxicity, but they never say *how* the toxicity manifests. Vitamin B6 has a diuretic effect, but probably is not causing your extreme symptoms. You need to see a doctor, preferably an endocrinologist. Your e-mail address indicates that you’re at a university. Maybe the library has a copy of the 1989 Recommended Dietary Allowances. This describes the toxic effects of over-dosing on vitamins. Some of the effects are pretty rare, though. Jack Challem Editor & Publisher THE NUTRITION REPORTER TM newsletter THE NUTRITION REPORTER, an independent newsletter, summarizes recent medical journal articles on vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients. For sample issues, send $3 and a long self-addressed envelope with 55 cents postage to The Nutrition Reporter, PO Box 5505, Aloha OR 97006 USA. By the way…we do not sell vitamins.

Response:

Collette, What form of vitamin A are you taking? At one time I was prescribed a form of A for heart problems that gave some of the same symptoms you describe. Also, if you are taking separate vitamin tablets, try eliminating one or another at a time to see what happens. I am diabetic and I get some reactions similar to what you describe from "energising" formulas as well. ti   Tom Ivers Equine Racing Systems, Inc. Washougal, WA (360) 837-3700  

Response:

Would symtoms of unquenchable thirst, excessive urination (and recently ravenous hunger, too) warrant a visit to the ER?  Should I call my HMO and demand that someone see me immediately?  I mean I don’t feel sick or anything… just really thirsty and hungry.        colette           )._.,–….,’“.                        `._.-(,_..’–(,_..’`-.;.’

I would be VERY assertive in calling and explaining that you have a serious medical emergency, and that if they can’t get you in within about 24 hours, you will be seeing a specialist and sending them the bill. This may be an expensive threat to follow through on, but you are dealing with a very serious disease–and based on your syptoms, I’d be willing to bet that you have a fairly serious blood sugar problem.  I didn’t start getting symptoms like you describe until my FASTING BG’s were around 275, and I suspect postprandials were close to 500…everyone is different, but generally mild cases are asymptomatic, and by the time you develop overt signs, the disease is fairly advanced. INSIST that your HMO take good care of you; be informed, demanding, and assertive.  At the same time, try to find a practitioner/nurse/dietician team who will go to bat for you.  It’s difficult to do battle with an HMO and become friends with your care team, but don’t confuse the two. Good luck, and be prepared to take control fo your own treatment. Diana Dills Type II

Response:

Remember that if the vitamins contain aspartame you could have 92 documented symptoms (according to the FDA, August 1995).  So if your problems started when you started vitamins check the labels.  We are trying to do something about these vitamin companies using aspartame.   Please email me for further information on aspartame if you would like. One of the worst culprits is Twin Labs.  We’ve given them 3 weeks to take the aspartame out of the 30 products they admit to, or we will declare a national boycott. Regards Betty     Operation Mission Possible Betty Martini UUCP:  …!emory!pd.org!betty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ] ]Lately I’ve had this persistent, absolutely unquenchable thirst. ]Blood sugar problems exist in my family so I’ve got an appointment ]to have that possibility checked out, but I’ve recently started ]taking a multivitamin supplement, and I’m wondering if that might ]have something to do with it. Thank you to everyone who responded (I’m sorry I didn’t respond to each of you individually).  The general consensus is that it’s nigh unto impossible that the vitamins are responsible for my symptoms. I figured as much, but the onset of the symptoms coincided so perfectly with my beginning the supplements that I thought it worth asking.  I know that there are people out there who are more knowledgable than I about such things. For those who have expressed concern, I do have an appointment with my HMO physician next Thursday, and I’ve called the ADA in Chicago to ask for a list of hospitals that do free diabetes screening (in case my HMO balks).  But, I’ve gotten the sense from some of you that maybe there should be more urgency to this. Would symtoms of unquenchable thirst, excessive urination (and recently ravenous hunger, too) warrant a visit to the ER?  Should I call my HMO and demand that someone see me immediately?  I mean I don’t feel sick or anything… just really thirsty and hungry.        colette           )._.,–….,’“.                        `._.-(,_..’–(,_..’`-.;.’

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