Question:

But of course since the HIV tests are sooooo unreliable, these measures can’t possibly be having any effect, right Paul?

I suppose if you start from the premise that HIV does not cause aids, testing for HIV to prevent aids is pretty silly.

Response:

Exactly, but it works, hence my point Sorry – British humour – I was using your post as leverage to get a dig at Paul. Cheers Bennett

Response:

What a lad of B.S. How could so called ‘testing’ have ant effect? It  does not even make sense. Seems they will say anything and hope people are dumb enough to buy it.

Response:

What a lad of B.S. How could so called ‘testing’ have ant effect? It  does not even make sense. Seems they will say anything and hope people are dumb enough to buy it.

You might try reading. Testing mother lets the doctors treat appropriately to minimise likelyhood. Drugs and possibly C-section, rather than natural birth.

Response:

Seems they will say anything and hope people are dumb enough to buy it.

Plenty of those.  Media, TV junkies.

Response:

But of course since the HIV tests are sooooo unreliable, these measures can’t possibly be having any effect, right Paul? Cheers Bennett

Response:

January 30, 2005 U.S. Is Close to Eliminating AIDS in Infants, Officials Say By MARC SANTORA IDS among infants, which only a decade ago took the lives of hundreds of babies a year and left doctors in despair, may be on the verge of being eliminated in the United States, public health officials say. In 1990, as many as 2,000 babies were born infected with H.I.V., the virus that causes AIDS; now, that number has been reduced to a bit more than 200 a year, according to health officials. In New York City, the center of the epidemic, there were 321 newborns infected with H.I.V. in 1990, the year the virus peaked among newborns in the city. In 2003, five babies were born with the virus. Across the country, mother-to-child transmission of H.I.V. has dropped so sharply that public health officials now talk about wiping it out. "This is a dramatic and wonderful success story," said Dr. Vicki Peters, the head of pediatric surveillance for the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. This winter, Dr. Peters presented a report in Bangkok for World AIDS Day documenting the improvement in New York. The success in fighting mother-to-child transmission, a sweeping victory for public health officials, was made possible largely because of better drugs, but aggressive public education and testing, as well as cooperation at the federal and local levels, also played a significant role. The advent of AZT, a drug used to attack H.I.V. in the blood and central nervous system, was critical. But equally important was simply getting mothers to know their H.I.V. status before they gave birth, a problem complicated by privacy and political and social issues. Much of the developing world continues to be ravaged by AIDS, however. In sub-Saharan Africa, more than two million people died of the disease last year. "We have had incredible progress," said Dr. Lynne Mofenson, the chief of the Pediatric, Adolescent and Maternal AIDS Branch of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, part of the National Institutes of Health. "But if you think about the U.S. and New York and then you think about Africa, it is like a tale of two cities, a tale of two epidemics." The advances in this country are considered stunning, given the scope of the problem two decades ago. "What we were grappling with was death," said Dr. Stephen Nicholas, a pediatric AIDS specialist at Harlem Hospital Center, remembering the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. "We were preoccupied by death." As AIDS spread from the gay community to drug users, women and finally their children, Dr. Nicholas recalled, frustration and hopelessness grew. At his hospital, 30 to 40 babies were dying a year. Mothers were giving birth to H.I.V.-infected children at an alarming rate across the country, estimated at 2,000 a year. While health officials did not track infant H.I.V. cases nationwide, they did count infants with AIDS, a figure that peaked near 900 in 1992. New York City was especially hard hit, accounting for about 22 percent of the infant infections. Central Harlem and the South Bronx had the highest rates of infection in the country. Yvonne, a 37-year-old woman from the Bronx, gave birth in 1994 at Harlem Hospital Center, and learned that both she and the baby had H.I.V. only after the child, her second, began developing strange rashes and swollen glands. "I got hysterical and I went into a rage and I started throwing things," said Yvonne, who asked that her last name not be used because her friends do not know she has H.I.V. "I thought everyone was lying and out to get me. I got really scared, to where I really didn’t want to touch my child. "I thought I was going to die. I thought me and my children were going to die. I just assumed we all were doomed." Just after Yvonne gave birth, the tide began to turn. Several months after her son was born, a groundbreaking study was completed that changed the way pregnant women infected with H.I.V. would be treated. Doctors suspected that AZT could be effective at reducing the presence of the virus in the bloodstream and significantly decreasing the chances of transmission, but there was reluctance to give the drug to pregnant women. Eventually, faced with thousands of sick babies, the National Institutes of Health allowed a test in which some mothers were given a course of AZT and others were given a placebo. Public health officials anxiously awaited the results. "I remember the day," Dr. Mofenson said, recalling when the results were released in 1994. "It was absolutely incredible." The study showed a 67 percent reduction in the risk of transmission. Moving with unusual speed, the federal government immediately allowed the women in the study group who had been taking placebos to switch to AZT, Dr. Mofenson said, and the babies born to those mothers also had a lower H.I.V. infection rate. Soon, women across the country were being treated. With no intervention, the likelihood that an infected mother will pass H.I.V. to her child is 20 to 25 percent, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. A year after the introduction of AZT treatment, the risk had dropped to 8 percent, Dr. Mofenson said. Since then, a combination of ever better drugs, more rigorous testing and partner notification, and greater awareness of the necessity of safe sex practices has contributed to reducing the risk even further. AZT was most effective if taken during the second trimester and administered during labor. But many women, like Yvonne, had little if any prenatal care and did not know whether they had H.I.V. Dr. Lucia Torian, the director of H.I.V. surveillance for the city’s health department, said that in the first years treatment was available, the city and state were still finding infected mothers only when they gave birth to infected children. The stigma of AIDS posed a significant barrier to the flow of vital information. While the state started an AIDS surveillance program in 1981 and tested all newborns for H.I.V. beginning in 1988, for years the program was conducted blind, meaning that no names were attached to the data. If a mother gave birth to a sick child, she would not be told that she or the child had H.I.V. Often the mother would not learn that both had the infection until the baby showed serious, usually fatal symptoms. And health workers did not track down and notify sexual partners of those who had the disease, a standard practice with other sexually transmitted diseases. David Rosner, a professor of public health history at the Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health, said the fear that AIDS patients would suffer discrimination was not without reason. "When this disease struck, it was often seen as being brought on by the individual himself," he said, noting that in other epidemics – from tuberculosis to cholera – a similar reaction had occurred. Dr. Guthrie S. Birkhead, director of the AIDS Institute and the Center for Community Health at the New York State Department of Health, said that in 1997 the state finally began attaching patient information to the newborn H.I.V. tests it conducted and then passing that information along to a patient’s doctor, so that mothers could get treatment. In 1998, a state law was passed that required hospitals to conduct immediate testing of newborns. The results could be learned in 12 hours, and patients could be treated promptly. "The newborn testing became a safety net," Dr. Birkhead said. Although New York was hit harder by AIDS than any other state, New York lagged when it came to AIDS reporting, said Dr. Torian, of the city’s health department. "It is very hard for us to understand at this point," Dr. Torian said. "It felt from the public health point of view, and even from the personal view of the mother, not to be a rational stance." In the last four years, only one baby has been born with H.I.V. at Harlem Hospital Center. Gone are the days when every bed in an orphanage created to take in children born with H.I.V. was filled as quickly as it became available. The city’s health commissioner, Dr. Thomas R. Frieden, said the turnaround in New York was "absolutely a success story." But he cautioned that there was more to be done. He ticked off all the information he has at his fingertips when it comes to a disease like tuberculosis – from the type of drugs patients are taking to key lab tests to whether they are responding well to treatment – and noted that no similar system existed to closely monitor H.I.V. and AIDS. "We’re not legally able to collect that information, and even if we were, New York State law would prevent us from using this data to improve patient outcomes," he said, referring to state privacy laws. And success in treating AIDS has raised the concern that the public may be growing complacent about AIDS prevention. A survey conducted by the city’s health department in 2003 showed that 40 percent of people who had sex with multiple partners said they did not use condoms. But as the struggle with pediatric AIDS shows, much can be accomplished when there are a clear focus and a concerted effort. Not only are children born with H.I.V. living longer, mothers now can take action to make sure they never pass on the virus, and there is anecdotal evidence that many now feel free to have more children. Yvonne and her H.I.V.-positive son, who just turned 11, are leading full lives. She had another child 14 months ago, this time getting treatment during her pregnancy that allowed her to give birth to a healthy baby, free of the virus. "We don’t need to be bringing sick babies into the world," Yvonne said. "We need to let everyone know it is still out there, but we can do something about it."

Response:

Question:

you reverse the entry only one.  in other words you look at what is referred to the T which is bank on one side and expense account on the other.  you redeposit and explain in the subject why you are reversing it.

Response:

you reverse the entry only one.  in other words you look at what is referred to the T which is bank on one side and expense account on the other.  you redeposit and explain in the subject why you are reversing it.

If you are referring to Angela Thornton’s post about a stale-dated check, your response is not in compliance with generally accepted accounting principles as they exist in the United States. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

Question:

OK, Ron, but what do you suggest? Just lament about the world? Tone at the top is indeed a very important factor in the overall control environment. Nobody is perfect but there still are a lot of people with basic integrity. Until now I have not encountered a single accounting professional who has not experienced professional ethical conflicts. They belong to the function. The question is how we deal with them in real professional life, not just in standards. How would you react in the situation which I tried to describe in detail in a previous post?

As you may or may not know, Ron’s experience was in Government.  In my opinion his comments are truth "as he knows it" and highly illuminating. I’ll be gone again until Monday.  When I get back I want to comment further on Sarah’s original request. In my opinion this is one of the most cogent threads we have had for a while. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com Washington, USA

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In my opinion, this subject deserves a lot more thoughtful attention than it is getting.  Our present arrangement practically guarantees large scale fraud.  The system is based on trust.  If you have bad people in the  system it fails.  Even in a police state you have bad people  who circumvent the system.  You can only make the system work  if you have cultural standards that support ethical behavior  and a police function with integrity.  You can only have  these two things when you have a broad support from the  cutter for them.  Now, in the face of this, we had Bill  Clinton. As Lucien points out, a diligent honest internal auditor faced with an illegal slush situation really has no place to go – if he / she wants to stay employed.  You can not have internal OR external auditors with integrity  if you don’t have top management with integrity.  You can’t  have top management with integrity unless you have a Board  with integrity.  Have you looked at how Corporate Boards of Directors are  chosen?  IMHO, a lot of people were, are, and will be rotten.  It is  pretty hard to keep the number down when we seem to have  large segments of society making heroes of rottenness.  As you can see, I don’t think it is an accounting problem, I  think it is a people problem.  From everything I’ve read and seen, I believe it is very hard  to change people in the short run.  By short run, I mean  under a hundred years.

OK, Ron, but what do you suggest? Just lament about the world? Tone at the top is indeed a very important factor in the overall control environment. Nobody is perfect but there still are a lot of people with basic integrity. Until now I have not encountered a single accounting professional who has not experienced professional ethical conflicts. They belong to the function. The question is how we deal with them in real professional life, not just in standards. How would you react in the situation which I tried to describe in detail in a previous post? A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete and inform sender. www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption using pgp.

Response:

attention to what went on below the waist. Reality is "messier" that most academic theories.

       ^^^^ Reality is messier than _all_ (valid) academic theories! Thinking anything else would miss the very essence of systematic science. Theory is about what is essential to _explain_ observed phenomena concisely, not to describe them in every minute detail. Likewise models always are simplifications of reality. That is what they are for. To get at the essence and the critical factors. A non-essential side issue. I know the word academic was meant for emphasis, but in science a theory is a theory.    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Longdistance skating page http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/timonice.html

Response:

Timo, you have my full agreement on this. When formulating date here: little or none. Academia still generally prefer to exclude creative accounting from perception. It’s much easier

In fact, creative accounting is a well-known phenomenon for example among the accounting scholars in Finland. Has been for a long time. There are even several treaties on the subject. The cause of the apparent lack and reluctance to take up your sensible suggestion in the academia is probably simple. Scientific research projects are long-term endeavors. One can’t quickly jump from subject to subject, as one can, and has to in business practice in accounting.  a search with journals like    Accounting, Organizations and Society Advances in Timo, could you give us the URLs, please? I’m not familiar with

Certainly. The URLs can be found thorugh the last line of the signature version I almost always use in this newsgroup. Please see below    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

Response:

attention to what went on below the waist. Reality is "messier" that most academic theories.

       ^^^^ Dear Lucien, Reality is messier than _all_ academic theories! Anything else would miss the very essence of systematic science. Theory is about what is essential to _explain_ observed phenomena concisely, not to describe them in every minute detail. Likewise models always are simplifications of reality. That is what they are for. To get at the crucial factors and their effects. A non-essential side issue. I know the word academic was meant for emphasis, and I am using it even myself, but one could say that in science a theory is a theory.    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

Response:

 In fact, creative accounting is a well-known phenomenon for  example among the accounting scholars in Finland. Has been  for a long time.  There are even several treaties on the  subject.

Excellent, Timo, happy to hear this. Have these efforts put more pressure on Finnish companies not to indulge in creative accouting, exposed such indulgence quicker, etc.? Our (some colleagues and yours truly) efforts here in Switzerland are starting to bear some fruit among financial jounalists who tend more to expose creative accounting. Today’s example 100 % relevant: Deutsche Telekomm. If you know German, here is a useful link: http://archiv.nzz.ch  The cause of the apparent lack and reluctance to take up your  sensible suggestion in the academia is probably simple.  Scientific research projects are long-term endeavors. One  can’t quickly jump from subject to subject, as one can, and  has to in business practice in accounting.

I wish these were the only motives. But I fear lucrative consulting mandates from big corporations may be another. Thanks for the URLs, Timo. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete and inform sender. www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption using pgp.

Response:

The Department of Justice DOES enforce the FCPA.  If you have knowledge of a violation, you should call their hotline and lodge a complaint.  As with all law enforcement agencies, they cannot prosecute crimes that they are ignorant of.

… 5. To my knowledge (please correct me if appropriate), the    US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (such things of course never    occur in the good old USofA), criminalises bribes only to    government officials, not, however, to officials of private    enterprises.

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for five years, mistake of being an accountant. * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

 The Department of Justice DOES enforce the FCPA.  If you have  knowledge of a violation, you should call their hotline and  lodge a complaint.  As with all law enforcement agencies,  they cannot prosecute crimes that they are ignorant of.  … 5. To my knowledge (please correct me if appropriate), the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (such things of course never occur in the good old USofA), criminalises bribes only to government officials, not, however, to officials of private enterprises.

Ron, we may have a communication breakdown. The point I was trying to make is that, to my knowledge, bribes of private enterprise officers, e. g. purchase officer, are beyond the scope of the FCPA. The FCPA targets only bribes of government officials. Is this correct? A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete and inform sender. www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption using pgp.

Response:

Yes.  However, if a state owns any part of the enterprise, AFAIK, a bribe will be considered covered under FCPA.  I would wonder if this could be extended to a governmental pension fund owning common stock of a company. http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa.html If you can’t use FCPA, In the US you can always buy a few shares and go after the company as a shareholder. IMHO, most corporate criminal activity goes un punished because no one really cares enough to bring a civil action.

… trying to make is that, to my knowledge, bribes of private enterprise officers, e. g. purchase officer, are beyond the scope of the FCPA. The FCPA targets only bribes of government officials. Is this correct?

… *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for five years, mistake of being an accountant. * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, first of all some caveats: 1. I have not and do not operate slush funds. 2. I do not approve slush funds. Secondly, let us bear in mind: 1. Of the 150 or so countries in the world, it is impossible to    do business without operating slush funds in 80 % or more. 2. Slush funds operate as you know to pay tax free    "commissions", finance private activities of board members    and corporate officers and the like. 3. Slush funds correspond to tacit reserves in the corporation’s    balance sheet. The accounts understate cash and overstate    expenses. On the other hand, fiscal and other legal    liabilities potentially ensuing from slush funds are not    among the stated liabilites. 4. Corporations generally "feed" the slush funds using say one    or more of the following methods:    a) underinvoicing, the customer paying the balance into the       slush fund    b) requesting overinvoicing by suppliers, the balance going       into the slush fund    c) accepting invoices for fictitious goods and especially       services and settling by payments into slush funds 5. To my knowledge (please correct me if appropriate), the    US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (such things of course never    occur in the good old USofA), criminalises bribes only to    government officials, not, however, to officials of private    enterprises. Bill, your questions are on the right track. Let us assume you are an internal auditor of a multinationally active corporation which by necessity operates slush funds in a number of countries. (Either have slush funds or cease operations.) Management is concerned about "proper" operation of these slush funds, e. g.: 1. Are the slush funds really used for their intended purposes? 2. Are the "commissions" paid reasonable by local market    standards? 3. Are the running costs of the slush funds reasonable? 4. What risks and probable outcomes exist in case of discovery,    disclosure, blackmail, etc.? What are your options as an internal auditor? 1. Refuse to plan and / or perform the audit due to professional    ethical conflict according to the SPPIA (Standards of    Professional Practice of Internal Audit)? 2. Try and get the corporation to close down all slush funds and    cease operations in all markets which necessitate such funds? 3. Get outside counsel? 4. Escalate the ethical conflict and ultimately resign after    submission of an informative memorandum, fully aware that    nearly all comparable corporations engage in similar    practices, i. e. substantially narrowing your job market? 5. Blow the whistle e. g. by informing external audit? 6. Diligently perform the audit but qualifying your audit    opinion by expressing basic disapproval of slush funds? 7. Make recommendations concerning on-balance-sheet accounting    entries for the slush funds? In my experience academia generally do not, if at all, adequately address such issues which occur quite frequently in the real world. Like pre-Freudian psychology did not pay much attention to what went on below the waist. Reality is "messier" that most academic theories.

In my opinion, this subject deserves a lot more thoughtful attention than it is getting.  Our present arrangement practically guarantees large scale fraud. As Lucien points out, a diligent honest internal auditor faced with an illegal slush situation really has no place to go – if he / she wants to stay employed. I don’t know if Lucien’s 80% figure is right or not.  I don’t know if anyone knows.  Slush, like all fraud, is a very secretive business.  We only know about those situations that are discovered and publicized. In my opinion, the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act only makes sense if we (USA) are willing to massively reduce our own involvement in world trade.  If bribes are necessary to get international business, our (USA) international companies are no doubt paying bribes right along with everyone else.  Whistle blowers are not tolerated, be they internal or external.  The only auditors who can remain employed are those who are able to avoid the slush. There are no easy or quick answers here. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com Washington, USA

Response:

… In my opinion, this subject deserves a lot more thoughtful attention than it is getting.  Our present arrangement practically guarantees large scale fraud. The system is based on trust.  If you have bad people in the system it fails.  Even in a police state you have bad people who circumvent the system.  You can only make the system work if you have cultural standards that support ethical behavior and a police function with integrity.  You can only have these two things when you have a broad support from the cutter for them.

All true. Now, in the face of this, we had Bill Clinton.

HAD is the operative word here.  It is time to move on. As Lucien points out, a diligent honest internal auditor faced with an illegal slush situation really has no place to go – if he / she wants to stay employed. You can not have internal OR external auditors with integrity if you don’t have top management with integrity.

Nonsense.  This is the central purpose behind our Independence ethic. You can’t have top management with integrity unless you have a Board with integrity.

This I agree with. Have you looked at how Corporate Boards of Directors are chosen?

Of course I have. IMHO, a lot of people were, are, and will be rotten.  It is pretty hard to keep the number down when we seem to have large segments of society making heroes of rottenness.

The idea of Robbing Hood (pun intended) goes back a long way, no doubt about that. Nevertheless, for a system to remain functional it must be designed to isolate and remove corruption.  In my opinion that is one of the prime reasons that professional accountants exist (we will probably not agree on this). As you can see, I don’t think it is an accounting problem, I think it is a people problem.

In my opinion it is both. From everything I’ve read and seen, I believe it is very hard to change people in the short run.  By short run, I mean under a hundred years.

I don’t have a hundred years. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com Washington, USA

Response:

Academia is a club all its own. Being principally a practitioner  Yes, there undeniably is a, sometimes huge, expectation gap,  even widened by the fact that a deeper understanding of (any)  scientific research requires a lot more and a bit different  than familiarity with (per se very valuable) professional  accounting lore. On the other hand the scholars should bear  the need of popularization and clarity in mind. More  discussion between the two sides is good and welcome.

Timo, you have my full agreement on this. When formulating theories, scientific and intellectual rigor are appropriate and necessary. Example: in several lectures I suggested that "creative accounting" be officially included in university syllabuses under "financial statement analysis". Response to date here: little or none. Academia still generally prefer to exclude creative accounting from perception. It’s much easier just to use the numbers presented at their face value, especially if they are IAS "lite and soft" certified by your "client friendly" big 5 audit firm who give grants to the university. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – impression is that accounting academia generally do not and do not wish to address the most important issues our profession faces: professional ethical conflicts. Accounting theory today  Are you sure you have looked at the right places? I certainly  am not a specialist in that particular subfield (mine is  financial statement analysis research and quantitative  methods), but I have good reasons to subject your blanket  claim under friendly doubt. I predict with high probability  that a couple of day’s intensive search of scientific  journals’ databases might show otherwise. I would start such  a search with journals like    Accounting, Organizations and Society Advances in    Accounting Behavioral Research Behavioral Research in    Accounting Critical Perspectives on Accounting Journal of    Accounting Education

Timo, could you give us the URLs, please? I’m not familiar with all of these but with pronouncements of the various professional orgs. In reality, diligent observance of these prononcements would put a material number of accountants out of work. And / or have a significant effect towards cleaning up business practice. A. Lucien Meyers — If you receive this by error, please delete and inform sender. www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption using pgp.

Response:

… In my opinion, this subject deserves a lot more thoughtful attention than it is getting.  Our present arrangement practically guarantees large scale fraud.

The system is based on trust.  If you have bad people in the system it fails.  Even in a police state you have bad people who circumvent the system.  You can only make the system work if you have cultural standards that support ethical behavior and a police function with integrity.  You can only have these two things when you have a broad support from the cutter for them.  Now, in the face of this, we had Bill Clinton. As Lucien points out, a diligent honest internal auditor faced with an illegal slush situation really has no place to go – if he / she wants to stay employed.

You can not have internal OR external auditors with integrity if you don’t have top management with integrity.  You can’t have top management with integrity unless you have a Board with integrity. Have you looked at how Corporate Boards of Directors are chosen? IMHO, a lot of people were, are, and will be rotten.  It is pretty hard to keep the number down when we seem to have large segments of society making heroes of rottenness. As you can see, I don’t think it is an accounting problem, I think it is a people problem. From everything I’ve read and seen, I believe it is very hard to change people in the short run.  By short run, I mean under a hundred years. … — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for five years, mistake of being an accountant. * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I recently resigned from my position as a staff accountant at  a public accounting firm here in Houston, we did mainly audit  work of small public companies.  Before that, I was internal at  a small (30-50MM per year construction company) and I am back  internal at a couple of the companies my previous firm audits  (they have too little $$ to afford actual full-time controllers.)  My education is BA in humanities, MBA in general business.  I am heading back to college to pick up accounting hours  in order to take the CPA exam and weighing my professional  options.  One thing that I am considering is getting a  PHD in accounting or a related field and going into teaching/  research.  I would be interested in a discussion regarding  such a career, eg, benefits and drawbacks, how it is (or is  not) fulfilling to those who are (or used to be) doing it,  trends for the future needs, what are ongoing interesting  research areas, etc..

Sarah, It’s difficult to answer query in a general way and still be specific. Pecuniary interests do not seem to be your primary concern, but nonetheless the $ rank of accounting and / or audit related jobs is: 1. CFO 2. Chief Controller 3. Director of Internal Audit Academia is a club all its own. Being principally a practitioner but with considerable lecturing and teaching exposure, my impression is that accounting academia generally do not and do not wish to address the most important issues our profession faces: professional ethical conflicts. Accounting theory today is IMHO still like psychology before Freud. To clearly illustrate what I mean, what answers does accounting and audit theory provide to the following question: How should one properly audit a slush fund? One avenue you should investigate is tax consultation and tax return preparation. Clients usually clearly recognize the benefits of such services more than say external audit. With such activities as throwing billions of good money after bad (our Swiss federal and state governments’ "rescueing" Swissair) and your government’s waging war against one of the world’s poorest countries, competent tax advisors will probably not run out of work in the forseeable future due to waning taxation. Tax work automatically gets you involved in investment counselling. Hope this reply does more than contribute to confusion. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption using pgp.

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<<SNIP Academia is a club all its own. Being principally a practitioner but with considerable lecturing and teaching exposure, my impression is that accounting academia generally do not and do not wish to address the most important issues our profession faces: professional ethical conflicts. Accounting theory today is IMHO still like psychology before Freud. To clearly illustrate what I mean, what answers does accounting and audit theory provide to the following question: How should one properly audit a slush fund?

Frankly, I don’t have a clue how accounting and/or audit theory would answer that question. It’s been a long while since I taught auditing but based on what I do remember about the field, your question doesn’t make sense. Do you mean, how does one develop the needed level of assurance that the slush fund is only being used for nefarious, under-the-table purposes? Or are you talking about control issues such as whether the slush fund custodian is effectively keeping the existence of the fund a secret from others both inside and outside of the organization? One thing I have always tried to teach my students is determine what the real question is before you try to answer it. So, Luke, what is your real question? Regards, Bill

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How should one properly audit a slush fund?

They would call the slush fund petty cash……. What to do with Osama Bin Laden? Capture him, force him to undergo a sex change operation, and send him back to Afghanistan as a woman. I’m allergic to spam. Remove "No Spam" from my e-mail address to respond. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Academia is a club all its own. Being principally a practitioner

Yes, there undeniably is a, sometimes huge, expectation gap, even widened by the fact that a deeper understanding of (any) scientific research requires a lot more and a bit different than familiarity with (per se very valuable) professional accounting lore. On the other hand the scholars should bear the need of popularization and clarity in mind. More discussion between the two sides is good and welcome. impression is that accounting academia generally do not and do not wish to address the most important issues our profession faces: professional ethical conflicts. Accounting theory today

Are you sure you have looked at the right places? I certainly am not a specialist in that particular subfield (mine is financial statement analysis research and quantitative methods), but I have good reasons to subject your blanket claim under friendly doubt. I predict with high probability that a couple of day’s intensive search of scientific journals’ databases might show otherwise. I would start such a search with journals like   Accounting, Organizations and Society   Advances in Accounting Behavioral Research   Behavioral Research in Accounting   Critical Perspectives on Accounting   Journal of Accounting Education    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  <<SNIP Accounting theory today is IMHO still like psychology before Freud. To clearly illustrate what I mean, what answers does accounting and audit theory provide to the following question: How should one properly audit a slush fund?  Frankly, I don’t have a clue how accounting and/or audit  theory would answer that question. It’s been a long while  since I taught auditing but based on what I do remember about  the field, your question doesn’t make sense. Do you mean, how  does one develop the needed level of assurance that the slush  fund is only being used for nefarious, under-the-table  purposes? Or are you talking about control issues such as  whether the slush fund custodian is effectively keeping the  existence of the fund a secret from others both inside and  outside of the organization?  One thing I have always tried to teach my students is  determine what the real question is before you try to answer  it. So, Luke, what is your real question?

Well, first of all some caveats: 1. I have not and do not operate slush funds. 2. I do not approve slush funds. Secondly, let us bear in mind: 1. Of the 150 or so countries in the world, it is impossible to    do business without operating slush funds in 80 % or more. 2. Slush funds operate as you know to pay tax free    "commissions", finance private activities of board members    and corporate officers and the like. 3. Slush funds correspond to tacit reserves in the corporation’s    balance sheet. The accounts understate cash and overstate    expenses. On the other hand, fiscal and other legal    liabilities potentially ensuing from slush funds are not    among the stated liabilites. 4. Corporations generally "feed" the slush funds using say one    or more of the following methods:    a) underinvoicing, the customer paying the balance into the       slush fund    b) requesting overinvoicing by suppliers, the balance going       into the slush fund    c) accepting invoices for fictitious goods and especially       services and settling by payments into slush funds 5. To my knowledge (please correct me if appropriate), the    US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (such things of course never    occur in the good old USofA), criminalises bribes only to    government officials, not, however, to officials of private    enterprises. Bill, your questions are on the right track. Let us assume you are an internal auditor of a multinationally active corporation which by necessity operates slush funds in a number of countries. (Either have slush funds or cease operations.) Management is concerned about "proper" operation of these slush funds, e. g.: 1. Are the slush funds really used for their intended purposes? 2. Are the "commissions" paid reasonable by local market    standards? 3. Are the running costs of the slush funds reasonable? 4. What risks and probable outcomes exist in case of discovery,    disclosure, blackmail, etc.? What are your options as an internal auditor? 1. Refuse to plan and / or perform the audit due to professional    ethical conflict according to the SPPIA (Standards of    Professional Practice of Internal Audit)? 2. Try and get the corporation to close down all slush funds and    cease operations in all markets which necessitate such funds? 3. Get outside counsel? 4. Escalate the ethical conflict and ultimately resign after    submission of an informative memorandum, fully aware that    nearly all comparable corporations engage in similar    practices, i. e. substantially narrowing your job market? 5. Blow the whistle e. g. by informing external audit? 6. Diligently perform the audit but qualifying your audit    opinion by expressing basic disapproval of slush funds? 7. Make recommendations concerning on-balance-sheet accounting    entries for the slush funds? In my experience academia generally do not, if at all, adequately address such issues which occur quite frequently in the real world. Like pre-Freudian psychology did not pay much attention to what went on below the waist. Reality is "messier" that most academic theories. Hope this clarifies, albeit in verbose mode, the questions. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete and inform sender. www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption using pgp.

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I recently resigned from my position as a staff accountant at a public accounting firm here in Houston, we did mainly audit work of small public companies.  Before that, I was internal at a small (30-50MM per year construction company) and I am back internal at a couple of the companies my previous firm audits (they have too little $$ to afford actual full-time controllers.) My education is BA in humanities, MBA in general business. I am heading back to college to pick up accounting hours in order to take the CPA exam and weighing my professional options.  One thing that I am considering is getting a PHD in accounting or a related field and going into teaching/ research.  I would be interested in a discussion regarding such a career, eg, benefits and drawbacks, how it is (or is not) fulfilling to those who are (or used to be) doing it, trends for the future needs, what are ongoing interesting research areas, etc.. — sarah clark When you forget yourself and are united with your task, that is your liberation.  If there is a milestone of realization on the path, well and good, but it is in the continued practice of uniting with your work that you turn the wheel of the Dharma for yourself, for the Sangha, and for the world.   — robert aitken

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Try the CPAs-L listserver, they seem to congregate around there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently resigned from my position as a staff accountant at a public accounting firm here in Houston, we did mainly audit work of small public companies.  Before that, I was internal at a small (30-50MM per year construction company) and I am back internal at a couple of the companies my previous firm audits (they have too little $$ to afford actual full-time controllers.) My education is BA in humanities, MBA in general business. I am heading back to college to pick up accounting hours in order to take the CPA exam and weighing my professional options.  One thing that I am considering is getting a PHD in accounting or a related field and going into teaching/ research.  I would be interested in a discussion regarding such a career, eg, benefits and drawbacks, how it is (or is not) fulfilling to those who are (or used to be) doing it, trends for the future needs, what are ongoing interesting research areas, etc.. — sarah clark When you forget yourself and are united with your task, that is your liberation.  If there is a milestone of realization on the path, well and good, but it is in the continued practice of uniting with your work that you turn the wheel of the Dharma for yourself, for the Sangha, and for the world.   — robert aitken

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for five years, mistake of being an accountant. * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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<<SNIP I am heading back to college to pick up accounting hours in order to take the CPA exam and weighing my professional options.  One thing that I am considering is getting a PHD in accounting or a related field and going into teaching/ research.  I would be interested in a discussion regarding such a career, eg, benefits and drawbacks, how it is (or is not) fulfilling to those who are (or used to be) doing it, trends for the future needs, what are ongoing interesting research areas, etc..

Interesting question. Let me get back to you in a day or two. I’m in the middle of giving a test, which I’ll have to grade, and grading the Part I of 50 semester projects. I will say this. The biggest drawback for me is grading papers. I love teaching. I’ve learned to enjoy writing. I hate grading papers. Regards, Bill

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<SNIP I am heading back to college to pick up accounting hours in order to take the CPA exam and weighing my professional options.  One thing that I am considering is getting a PHD in accounting or a related field and going into teaching/ research.  I would be interested in a discussion regarding such a career, eg, benefits and drawbacks, how it is (or is not) fulfilling to those who are (or used to be) doing it, trends for the future needs, what are ongoing interesting research areas, etc.. Interesting question. Let me get back to you in a day or two. I’m in the middle of giving a test, which I’ll have to grade, and grading the Part I of 50 semester projects. I will say this. The biggest drawback for me is grading papers. I love teaching. I’ve learned to enjoy writing. I hate grading papers. Regards, Bill

I think this is a great discussion topic. I was a part time prof at a junior college once – loved it. I also need a day or two get my thoughts in order. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com Washington, USA

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middle of giving a test, which I’ll have to grade, and grading the Part I of 50 semester projects. I will say this. The biggest drawback for me is grading papers. I love teaching. I’ve learned to enjoy writing. I hate grading papers.

Very true. However, later in a university career (if that is where one is headed) one steps up the ladder ever so slowly, but eventually gets to a point where one can choose what one wants to do in one’s teaching. I am finally fortunate enough to no more have to grade much papers. Instead I have chosen to concentrate most of my teaching on tutoring master’s theses and doctoral theses students. That is much more interesting and rewarding. But, indeed, I have a long university career behind me, and have had to go through the phase of too much grading myself in the earlier days. One word about tests. To some extent one can decide between putting one’s effort into the design of the test or the grading. Plan a very good test (much work, but infinitely more interesting), the boring grading will be a lot easier. That’s teaching. On the other hand, let’s not forget "publish or perish" rat race. That should not feel frightening but a positive challenge.    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

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PHD in accounting or a related field and going into teaching/ research.  I would be interested in a discussion regarding such a career, eg, benefits and drawbacks, how it is (or is

Dear Sarah, Career planning is good and commendable, but it is nevertheless a the secondary issue. The primary question to ask yourself is this. Are you interested in doing research and fascinated by science. Well, the emphasis somewhat depends on, of course, are you vying for an eventual career teaching at a college or doing research at a university. Especially, if the latter, browse good scientific accounting journals (see the last line of my signature). If you like what you see, and effectively begin to feel a compelling desire to do the same, then this is the choice for you. Also test if things like this are of enough interest for you.  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/popsci.html  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/intd/resgui.html I have never regretted my own choice to become a scholar and scientist. This is what and who I want to be in my life. Would you foresee feeling the same way? If yes, go for it.    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

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Try the CPAs-L listserver, they seem to congregate around there.

A breed apart from your angle? (note the smiley)    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

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Question:

Wouldn’t be from Sydney would we? Jake

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<snipped They do not need Accountants in Melbourne. The People have no money and all the companies are foreign and have their Accunts done off-shore. PEM

What do they do off shore?  :-)) Oh … you are soooooooooooooooo rude!

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Does anybody know anything about KNP Chartered Accountants in Melbourne? There don’t appear to be any web-based resources for this company. Aren’t they in the 21st Century yet? They do not need Accountants in Melbourne. The People have no money and all the companies are foreign and have their Accunts done off-shore.

Oh, thanks, I was worried that I wouldn’t get a serious answer.

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 Does anybody know anything about KNP Chartered Accountants in Melbourne? I’m certain that KNP Chartered Accountants would.

There don’t appear to be any web-based resources for this company. You don’t appear to have a proper handle on the Queen’s English.

Aren’t they in the 21st Century yet? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you even reached the 20th century? Use a friggin’ telephone!

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Does anybody know anything about KNP Chartered Accountants in Melbourne? I’m certain that KNP Chartered Accountants would.

But would they tell me everything they know? Do you understand the concept of research? There don’t appear to be any web-based resources for this company. You don’t appear to have a proper handle on the Queen’s English.

Interesting…what, specifically, has led you to this hypothesis? Are you sure you aren’t merely an idiot in disguise? Aren’t they in the 21st Century yet? Have you even reached the 20th century? Use a friggin’ telephone!

Why should I do that when I am already in the 21st Century and waiting for retards like yourself to catch up?

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Does anybody know anything about KNP Chartered Accountants in Melbourne? There don’t appear to be any web-based resources for this company. Aren’t they in the 21st Century yet?

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Does anybody know anything about KNP Chartered Accountants in Melbourne? There don’t appear to be any web-based resources for this company. Aren’t they in the 21st Century yet?

They do not need Accountants in Melbourne. The People have no money and all the companies are foreign and have their Accunts done off-shore. PEM

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Question:

Excuse me if this has been covered recently — I don’t normally read this group; My wife is about to graduate from college for accounting — I would like to give her a gift to celebrate her new profession;  however multiple searches on various search engines come up with not a whole lot. Does anyone know of a site that would help me ?   For some of my interests there is http://www.themusicstand.com. I did find http://giftswithaname.com and http://www.careergifts.com — selection is a bit limited Thanks for your help.

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My original note is at the end,  this post is to summarize the results of what was forwarded to me, in case anyone is interested: Thanks to all who took the time to send me info: Not much — however, these are the resources:  http://www.aicpa.org/store/biggame.htm http://www.designsetc.com/cpa.htm   http://giftswithaname.com http://www.careergifts.com Also the following suggestion —   IMHO two fine gifts for a new accountant are (1) either a HP19bii or HP12 business calculator or (2)  really good (maybe monogrammed) leather brief case.  YMMV Thanks for the input — just an observation;  crud, they say engineers don’t have a sense of humour — the accounting profession appears to be in dire need of a Scott Adams For example —  in my office is prominantly displayed;  a box of Nerds,   a pointy haired boss mug and a motivational sign saying "There’s a little geek in all of us"  and ( of course ) my Dilbert calendar ( which, since I have moved into management doesn’t seem quite as funny as it used to — sigh ) If there are other contributions, please e-mail me.   I am going to unsubscribe to this group.   Have a very pleasant Christmas and New Year.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excuse me if this has been covered recently — I don’t normally read this group; My wife is about to graduate from college for accounting — I would like to give her a gift to celebrate her new profession;  however multiple searches on various search engines come up with not a whole lot.

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… Thanks for the input — just an observation;  crud, they say engineers don’t have a sense of humour — the accounting profession appears to be in dire need of a Scott Adams

… Well…  When you are in a profession that handles other people’s money, even indirectly, it doesn’t pay to have a very conspicuous sense of humor. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it.   * *                                                             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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… My wife is about to graduate from college for accounting — I would like to give her a gift to celebrate her new profession;  however multiple searches on various search engines come up with not a whole lot.

IMHO two fine gifts for a new accountant are (1) either a HP19bii or HP12 business calculator or (2)  really good (maybe monogrammed) leather brief case.  YMMV Does anyone know of a site that would help me ?   For some of my interests there is http://www.themusicstand.com.

I would suggest doing a site search with www.google.com.  I’ve found it very helpful for finding things. … — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it.   * *                                                             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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Question:

I was wondering if CPAs could give me, in their words , a short description of the staff accountant position in terms of: 1. Responsibilities 2. Education 3. Duties 4. Abilities In addition, what a staff accountant means to you in your work. I am a staff accountant (not for a big 5 firm) and was curious to know what people above me in the hierarchy thought. Any input on the above would be helpful. Thanks.

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I was wondering if CPAs could give me, in their words , a short description of the staff accountant position in terms of: 1. Responsibilities

One key issue for any professional (and a staff accountant is a professional) is that he/she has to meet the overall responsibilities of the profession.  You have a professional/client relationship–but in your case you are selling to *one* client.  And, again, you aren’t allowed to blindly do what the client tells you to do.   Your work needs to be of the quality that you would find acceptable if you were dealing directly with the clients. That said, normally I would view the staff accountant as being in a learning environment, at least in the early years.  In the initial years, I would want to be sure that everything coming from the staff accountant is "filtered" through more experienced staff and the partner in charge. As the skill level of the accountant improves, he/she would receive increased responsibilities on the acccount. 2. Education

Normally, we would expect the staff accountant coming in to have sufficient education to enable him/her to sit for the CPA exam.  We also require our staff accountants to attend continuing education programs that we approve in consultation with the staff accountant.   3. Duties

Initial duties will be primarily the "grunt" work on various projects–that means getting dirty with the details of working on compilations, reviews and tax returns.  Initial experience "in the trenches" is important to allow the staffer to eventually be able to handle higher level projects (like consulting on systems and the like) with enough understanding of the practical issues to come up with practical solutions. 4. Abilities

What I first want from a staffer is a) good work habits and motivation and b) the ability to think for him/herself and to solve problems.  Give me that and I can get the technical competence.  But if someone lacks those two qualities, it really doesn’t matter how technically competent they are–they aren’t going to work out. In addition, what a staff accountant means to you in your work.

Eventually a staff accountant means someone who can deliver reliable information to me to enable me to spot potential issues and opportunties for the client.  Also, it helps give us another set of eyes looking at the accounting data and hopefully helping to uncover those issues and opportunities. I am a staff accountant (not for a big 5 firm) and was curious to know what people above me in the hierarchy thought.

You may need to ask them <grin, since one of the negatives of many accountants is that they aren’t the world’s greatest communicators, especially inside the firm. — Ed Zollars, CPA (AZ) http://www.hmtzcpas.com

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Question:

Louis, I can’t imagine anyone keeping an expensive boat sitting in a repair facility for 9 yrs.  If he had a legitimate claim, my guess is Whaler would have corrected it, or he would have won in court. — Jim "People who disagree with ME aren’t just wrong, they’re evil…"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Something’s fishy here……why would he let the boat sit for so long? Even if the boat required $10,000 repairs, I would think that most people would have the work done – then gone after Whaler. I think its strange that a boat this expensive would sit for so long over a relatively inexpensive repair – litigation would have been in the owners favor. I have a 1999 commercial whaler – these boats are made for the military, coast guard etc – are not made to be tough not pretty -and are warranted for structural (not cosmetic) flaws. My boat was shipped with some cosmetic flaws -the boats cleats and rails needed to be re-powdercoated -the underside of the gunnels where rough – they needed to be taken off and gelled (this is no easy task) -my leaning post was shipped with no gel on the inside Whaler was contacted – they responded to the dealer – who was told to fix the boat to my satisfaction – period. The dealer had the boat for 2 weeks – everything fixed beyond my expectations. All the cosmetic NON-WARRANTY items I had issues with where fixed at Whalers expense. My suspicion about the boat is question stems from my current (and previous) experiences with Whaler – this story doesn’t sound right. Louie Received 1849 EDT via email: Thanks for the note.  I am curious now, what newsgroups are you referring to and what are they saying… As for the repairs.  Whaler directed me t oa former employee/manager who runs a repair yard down the street from the factory (he may even own it?).  I spoke to the gentleman wh ohas seen the boat and thought it cost no less that $2000 and maybe as much as $6500 to repair.  If they can drill one hole and blow foam in; that would be the least expensive repair.  If they have to remove glass and gelcoat to get to the effected areas the nthe cost rised because more man hours will be needed.  As a rule the factory does not repiar boats any longer.  Hope this helps. I have had dozens of inquiries and have tried to be as candid as possible. If you could direct me to the news groups I would enjoy seeing what they are saying. Mattias Your sale has stirred some controversy in the boating newsgroups. Any idea what Whaler would charge to correct the hull? David We spend a lot of words in this newsgroup discussing the reputation of various brands, both good and bad. Here’s a Boston Whaler for sale on Ebay.  It’s an interesting auction. Nice looking boat, probably a hell of a fishing machine.  Drawback:  Some hull delamination during warranty period, never fixed because of some sort of dispute.  Boat is laid up at the factory. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173720364 I don’t know the story, but I thought it would make a good discussion. How good are Whalers?   How good is the company since this boat never got fixed. Rich Stern

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I’m just glad my boat doesn’t have a foam core or wood.  I can see through my hull if I have one of the speaker holes open on the Sea Rayder.  It’s very light, inside the hull, if the sun is shining outside.  Can’t be any coring if there’s that much light coming through.  If someone holds their hand on the hull while looking at the light, inside, you can see their hand shadow very plainly in the translucent light. Larry

And you think being able to see through your hull is good? SA ***When I grow up, I wanna have a brown nose***

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m just glad my boat doesn’t have a foam core or wood.  I can see through my hull if I have one of the speaker holes open on the Sea Rayder.  It’s very light, inside the hull, if the sun is shining outside.  Can’t be any coring if there’s that much light coming through.  If someone holds their hand on the hull while looking at the light, inside, you can see their hand shadow very plainly in the translucent light. Larry And you think being able to see through your hull is good? SA

Listen, if I haven’t broken it to bits jumping tugboat wakes and ocean swells, yet, it’s gotta be made of the right stuff…..(c; Larry….

Response:

We agree. He probably bought the boat as is, and is making up a story to sell it (based on his story I would imagine there is lots wrong with this hull that isn’t being disclosed). People who buy 27′ Whalers usually aren’t first time buyers, have lots of disposable income, and most probably can tell you their lawyer and accountants telephone numbers from memory. Louie PS delamination is a very legitimate claim on any boat.   Was he the original owner?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Louis, I can’t imagine anyone keeping an expensive boat sitting in a repair facility for 9 yrs.  If he had a legitimate claim, my guess is Whaler would have corrected it, or he would have won in court. — Jim "People who disagree with ME aren’t just wrong, they’re evil…" Something’s fishy here……why would he let the boat sit for so long? Even if the boat required $10,000 repairs, I would think that most people would have the work done – then gone after Whaler. I think its strange that a boat this expensive would sit for so long over a relatively inexpensive repair – litigation would have been in the owners favor. I have a 1999 commercial whaler – these boats are made for the military, coast guard etc – are not made to be tough not pretty -and are warranted for structural (not cosmetic) flaws. My boat was shipped with some cosmetic flaws -the boats cleats and rails needed to be re-powdercoated -the underside of the gunnels where rough – they needed to be taken off and gelled (this is no easy task) -my leaning post was shipped with no gel on the inside Whaler was contacted – they responded to the dealer – who was told to fix the boat to my satisfaction – period. The dealer had the boat for 2 weeks – everything fixed beyond my expectations. All the cosmetic NON-WARRANTY items I had issues with where fixed at Whalers expense. My suspicion about the boat is question stems from my current (and previous) experiences with Whaler – this story doesn’t sound right. Louie Received 1849 EDT via email: Thanks for the note.  I am curious now, what newsgroups are you referring to and what are they saying… As for the repairs.  Whaler directed me t oa former employee/manager who runs a repair yard down the street from the factory (he may even own it?).  I spoke to the gentleman wh ohas seen the boat and thought it cost no less that $2000 and maybe as much as $6500 to repair.  If they can drill one hole and blow foam in; that would be the least expensive repair.  If they have to remove glass and gelcoat to get to the effected areas the nthe cost rised because more man hours will be needed.  As a rule the factory does not repiar boats any longer.  Hope this helps. I have had dozens of inquiries and have tried to be as candid as possible. If you could direct me to the news groups I would enjoy seeing what they are saying. Mattias Your sale has stirred some controversy in the boating newsgroups. Any idea what Whaler would charge to correct the hull? David We spend a lot of words in this newsgroup discussing the reputation of various brands, both good and bad. Here’s a Boston Whaler for sale on Ebay.  It’s an interesting auction. Nice looking boat, probably a hell of a fishing machine.  Drawback:  Some hull delamination during warranty period, never fixed because of some sort of dispute.  Boat is laid up at the factory. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173720364 I don’t know the story, but I thought it would make a good discussion. How good are Whalers?   How good is the company since this boat never got fixed. Rich Stern

Response:

Hehehee…question is, what kind of light source would be required? 100 M candel power search light, or just a candle? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – through the Sea Rayder hull? Rich Stern

Response:

Brunswick makes a bowling pin that’s SO HARD it doesn’t even scuff when hit by a 16 lb bowling ball, over and over and over.   Why can’t they make a hull that doesn’t disintegrate when it comes in contact with a wooden dock??

Any boat company could use kevlar or other plastics that are more durable than FRP, but at what cost?  For that matter, why not just graduate to steel hulls? It’s possible to make a car that would be nearly impossible to get killed in. But the price and functionality would limit the market (dramatically), right? Few would benefit. through the Sea Rayder hull? Rich Stern

Response:

I’m just glad my boat doesn’t have a foam core or wood.

There are some extraordinarily high quality boats that incorporate foam or wood or both. There are reasons to use both materials, and in the hands of people who know what they are doing, they work very well in boats. Brunswick makes a bowling pin that’s SO HARD it doesn’t even scuff when hit by a 16 lb bowling ball, over and over and over.   Why can’t they make a hull that doesn’t disintegrate when it comes in contact with a wooden dock?

And we can put a man on the moon, too. Or, rather, could. — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Annoying: Two people who go right on talking when you’re interrupting

Response:

Larry, Whaler no doubt honors it’s warranty committments.  But, that does not mean repairs need to take place at the plant.  Generally better all around if it is subbed out.  A nearby shop operated by a qualified person would be a good solution. Folks who build boats are not necessarily good at repairing boats. Butch

I’m just glad my boat doesn’t have a foam core or wood.  I can see through my hull if I have one of the speaker holes open on the Sea Rayder.  It’s very light, inside the hull, if the sun is shining outside.  Can’t be any coring if there’s that much light coming through.  If someone holds their hand on the hull while looking at the light, inside, you can see their hand shadow very plainly in the translucent light. Larry Brunswick makes a bowling pin that’s SO HARD it doesn’t even scuff when hit by a 16 lb bowling ball, over and over and over.   Why can’t they make a hull that doesn’t disintegrate when it comes in contact with a wooden dock??

Response:

  As a rule the factory does not repiar boats any longer.  Hope this helps. Mattias

I’d certainly hope Whaler is still repairing boats that are under the long hull warranty.  To refuse to repair a hull, with the warranty still effective, would put them in breach of contract under Magnusson-Moss in several areas where the lawyers could make complete replacement costs of a  boat look like a pittance, compared to what the payout would be after the court battle…..if you get my drift. I’m going to be watching this very closely because my Sea Ray and your Whaler are part of the same Brunswick conglomerate corporation. Bayliner owners should also keep an eye on this. Larry

Response:

Larry, Whaler no doubt honors it’s warranty committments.  But, that does not mean repairs need to take place at the plant.  Generally better all around if it is subbed out.  A nearby shop operated by a qualified person would be a good solution. Folks who build boats are not necessarily good at repairing boats. Butch

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  As a rule the factory does not repiar boats any longer.  Hope this helps. Mattias I’d certainly hope Whaler is still repairing boats that are under the long hull warranty.  To refuse to repair a hull, with the warranty still effective, would put them in breach of contract under Magnusson-Moss in several areas where the lawyers could make complete replacement costs of a  boat look like a pittance, compared to what the payout would be after the court battle…..if you get my drift. I’m going to be watching this very closely because my Sea Ray and your Whaler are part of the same Brunswick conglomerate corporation. Bayliner owners should also keep an eye on this.

Response:

Something’s fishy here……why would he let the boat sit for so long? Even if the boat required $10,000 repairs, I would think that most people would have the work done – then gone after Whaler. I think its strange that a boat this expensive would sit for so long over a relatively inexpensive repair – litigation would have been in the owners favor. I have a 1999 commercial whaler – these boats are made for the military, coast guard etc – are not made to be tough not pretty -and are warranted for structural (not cosmetic) flaws. My boat was shipped with some cosmetic flaws -the boats cleats and rails needed to be re-powdercoated -the underside of the gunnels where rough – they needed to be taken off and gelled (this is no easy task) -my leaning post was shipped with no gel on the inside Whaler was contacted – they responded to the dealer – who was told to fix the boat to my satisfaction – period. The dealer had the boat for 2 weeks – everything fixed beyond my expectations. All the cosmetic NON-WARRANTY items I had issues with where fixed at Whalers expense. My suspicion about the boat is question stems from my current (and previous) experiences with Whaler – this story doesn’t sound right. Louie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Received 1849 EDT via email: Thanks for the note.  I am curious now, what newsgroups are you referring to and what are they saying… As for the repairs.  Whaler directed me t oa former employee/manager who runs a repair yard down the street from the factory (he may even own it?).  I spoke to the gentleman wh ohas seen the boat and thought it cost no less that $2000 and maybe as much as $6500 to repair.  If they can drill one hole and blow foam in; that would be the least expensive repair.  If they have to remove glass and gelcoat to get to the effected areas the nthe cost rised because more man hours will be needed.  As a rule the factory does not repiar boats any longer.  Hope this helps. I have had dozens of inquiries and have tried to be as candid as possible. If you could direct me to the news groups I would enjoy seeing what they are saying. Mattias Your sale has stirred some controversy in the boating newsgroups. Any idea what Whaler would charge to correct the hull? David We spend a lot of words in this newsgroup discussing the reputation of various brands, both good and bad. Here’s a Boston Whaler for sale on Ebay.  It’s an interesting auction. Nice looking boat, probably a hell of a fishing machine.  Drawback:  Some hull delamination during warranty period, never fixed because of some sort of dispute.  Boat is laid up at the factory. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173720364 I don’t know the story, but I thought it would make a good discussion. How good are Whalers?   How good is the company since this boat never got fixed. Rich Stern

Response:

Received 1849 EDT via email: Thanks for the note.  I am curious now, what newsgroups are you referring to and what are they saying… As for the repairs.  Whaler directed me t oa former employee/manager who runs a repair yard down the street from the factory (he may even own it?).  I spoke to the gentleman wh ohas seen the boat and thought it cost no less that $2000 and maybe as much as $6500 to repair.  If they can drill one hole and blow foam in; that would be the least expensive repair.  If they have to remove glass and gelcoat to get to the effected areas the nthe cost rised because more man hours will be needed.  As a rule the factory does not repiar boats any longer.  Hope this helps. I have had dozens of inquiries and have tried to be as candid as possible. If you could direct me to the news groups I would enjoy seeing what they are saying. Mattias Your sale has stirred some controversy in the boating newsgroups. Any idea what Whaler would charge to correct the hull? David

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We spend a lot of words in this newsgroup discussing the reputation of various brands, both good and bad. Here’s a Boston Whaler for sale on Ebay.  It’s an interesting auction.  Nice looking boat, probably a hell of a fishing machine.  Drawback:  Some hull delamination during warranty period, never fixed because of some sort of dispute.  Boat is laid up at the factory. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173720364 I don’t know the story, but I thought it would make a good discussion.  How good are Whalers?   How good is the company since this boat never got fixed. Rich Stern

Response:

Rich, My guess is that the web site is a way to "encourage" Boston Whaler to fix whatever the problem is "under Warrenty".  I can’t belive that the boat sat at BW for 8 or 9 yrs waiting to be fixed. Michael, Quality is definitely measurable, but I agree that perception of quality or lack there of will impact on the way someone views the product. — Jim "People who disagree with ME aren’t just wrong, they’re evil…" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Quality, or the lack of,  in today’s market has become more a subjective perception than a measurable commodity. The automobiles of this era are a good example. No one can deny that there has been dramatic increase in the quality of today’s cars, more so than ever before, and yet most of us older folks still refer to some brands, across the board, as dogs. We remember our old 1962 Dodge (Chevy, Ford) car or truck and, so be it, all Dodge (Chevy, Ford) cars or trucks are dogs forever more. Unless, of course, you look subjectively, and boats are no exception. Boats too, all of them, all brands, are much more reliable than they used to be. The problem is with our self-maintained perceptions, the brand decals that are afixed to the back of our minds rather than our rear windows, perceptions that can be fueled by the increasingly rare and uncommon problem referenced below in the Whaler comment. Today’s lack of quality is more likely to stem from dealings with people, not products. How different the scenario with the Whaler would be if someone at Whaler quickly resolved the problem to the customers satisfaction. What would his opinion of the Whaler brand then be? "I remember my old Whaler back in the late 90’s! Whadda boat is We spend a lot of words in this newsgroup discussing the reputation of various brands, both good and bad. Here’s a Boston Whaler for sale on Ebay.  It’s an interesting auction. Nice looking boat, probably a hell of a fishing machine.  Drawback:  Some hull delamination during warranty period, never fixed because of some sort of dispute.  Boat is laid up at the factory. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173720364 I don’t know the story, but I thought it would make a good discussion. How good are Whalers?   How good is the company since this boat never got fixed. Rich Stern

Response:

lhfarm1 has an interesting auction history, mostly computer peripherals and software, cdr’s etc. For shit’s and grinns I emailed him asking if Whaler gave him a qoute to correct the hull. This happened to a couple of Scituate men around fifteen years ago on their shakedown run on a new Whaler 21 0r 23. They were steaming along in Cape Cod bay when one of the men noticed water coming through the deck sole. Moments later the hull split in half down the centerline. It was early spring in 42 degree water, one survived to tell his tale to the Boston Globe. I wouldn’t go near this one. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We spend a lot of words in this newsgroup discussing the reputation of various brands, both good and bad. Here’s a Boston Whaler for sale on Ebay.  It’s an interesting auction.  Nice looking boat, probably a hell of a fishing machine.  Drawback:  Some hull delamination during warranty period, never fixed because of some sort of dispute.  Boat is laid up at the factory. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173720364 I don’t know the story, but I thought it would make a good discussion.  How good are Whalers?   How good is the company since this boat never got fixed. Rich Stern

Response:

My guess is that the web site is a way to "encourage" Boston Whaler to fix whatever the problem is "under Warrenty".  I can’t belive that the boat sat at BW for 8 or 9 yrs waiting to be fixed.

Jim, I don’t think so.  It’s an ebay ad.  Putting it out there is a commitment to sell it in a short amount of time, so I don’t think this is about leverage against the manufacturer. Rich Stern

Response:

Rich, Many of ebay ads have "reserve" prices, which really doesn’t make it a bid, just a place to sell a product.  I assumed that this item had a reserve price, it does not. This could be one hell of a great deal, or one hell of a expensive nightmare.  I saved the site to see what it finally sells for. — Jim "People who disagree with ME aren’t just wrong, they’re evil…"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My guess is that the web site is a way to "encourage" Boston Whaler to fix whatever the problem is "under Warrenty".  I can’t belive that the boat sat at BW for 8 or 9 yrs waiting to be fixed. Jim, I don’t think so.  It’s an ebay ad.  Putting it out there is a commitment to sell it in a short amount of time, so I don’t think this is about leverage against the manufacturer. Rich Stern

Response:

Very interesting story on the boat.  I wouldn’t touch it for any price.  It has reportedly been in outside storage for ~9 years with an inner/outer hull delamination.  Do you think it might be repairable within the normal selling price of the boat? I wonder what the storage charges are for ~9 years of storage?  Do you think Whaler provides free storage? Based on Whaler’s excellent reputation for dealing with people, I’ll speculate that the owner put a lawyer into the picture.  Once the laywers get involved the stew is usually ruined.  Let’s see… my client lost the use of the boat for X seasons so you owe us a new boat plus $4 million.  Gotta earn my fee, you know. ;=) Butch – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – peripherals and software, cdr’s etc. For shit’s and grinns I emailed him asking if Whaler gave him a qoute to correct the hull. This happened to a couple of Scituate men around fifteen years ago on their shakedown run on a new Whaler 21 0r 23. They were steaming along in Cape Cod bay when one of the men noticed water coming through the deck sole. Moments later the hull split in half down the centerline. It was early spring in 42 degree water, one survived to tell his tale to the Boston Globe. I wouldn’t go near this one. David We spend a lot of words in this newsgroup discussing the reputation of various brands, both good and bad. Here’s a Boston Whaler for sale on Ebay.  It’s an interesting auction.  Nice looking boat, probably a hell of a fishing machine.  Drawback:  Some hull delamination during warranty period, never fixed because of some sort of dispute.  Boat is laid up at the factory. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173720364 I don’t know the story, but I thought it would make a good discussion.  How good are Whalers?   How good is the company since this boat never got fixed.

Response:

We spend a lot of words in this newsgroup discussing the reputation of various brands, both good and bad. Here’s a Boston Whaler for sale on Ebay.  It’s an interesting auction.  Nice looking boat, probably a hell of a fishing machine.  Drawback:  Some hull delamination during warranty period, never fixed because of some sort of dispute.  Boat is laid up at the factory. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173720364 I don’t know the story, but I thought it would make a good discussion.  How good are Whalers?   How good is the company since this boat never got fixed. Rich Stern

Response:

Quality, or the lack of,  in today’s market has become more a subjective perception than a measurable commodity. The automobiles of this era are a good example. No one can deny that there has been dramatic increase in the quality of today’s cars, more so than ever before, and yet most of us older folks still refer to some brands, across the board, as dogs. We remember our old 1962 Dodge (Chevy, Ford) car or truck and, so be it, all Dodge (Chevy, Ford) cars or trucks are dogs forever more. Unless, of course, you look subjectively, and boats are no exception. Boats too, all of them, all brands, are much more reliable than they used to be. The problem is with our self-maintained perceptions, the brand decals that are afixed to the back of our minds rather than our rear windows, perceptions that can be fueled by the increasingly rare and uncommon problem referenced below in the Whaler comment. Today’s lack of quality is more likely to stem from dealings with people, not products. How different the scenario with the Whaler would be if someone at Whaler quickly resolved the problem to the customers satisfaction. What would his opinion of the Whaler brand then be? "I remember my old Whaler back in the late 90’s! Whadda boat is

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We spend a lot of words in this newsgroup discussing the reputation of various brands, both good and bad. Here’s a Boston Whaler for sale on Ebay.  It’s an interesting auction. Nice looking boat, probably a hell of a fishing machine.  Drawback:  Some hull delamination during warranty period, never fixed because of some sort of dispute.  Boat is laid up at the factory. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173720364 I don’t know the story, but I thought it would make a good discussion.  How good are Whalers?   How good is the company since this boat never got fixed. Rich Stern

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Question:

Is this newsgroup mainly discussed about US or UK accounting issues? I am looking for some good sites which discuss about Capital gain tax. If you have any, please e-mail me!

Response:

thank you, Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this newsgroup mainly discussed about US or UK accounting issues? I am looking for some good sites which discuss about Capital gain tax. If you have any, please e-mail me! try the misc.taxes.moderated and us.taxes newsgroups.    Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.   #1 national QuickBooks Top Tester QB add-ons/seminars www.blocktax.com    Ft Lauderdale, FL 954-566-7540

Response:

Is this newsgroup mainly discussed about US or UK accounting issues? I am looking for some good sites which discuss about Capital gain tax. If you have any, please e-mail me!

try the misc.taxes.moderated and us.taxes newsgroups.    Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.               #1 national QuickBooks Top Tester QB add-ons/seminars www.blocktax.com    Ft Lauderdale, FL 954-566-7540

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have suggestions on what type of software would be useful for managing residential rental property?  Scoftware needs to run on NT 4.0 and be capable of supporting an operation involving 30 geographicallly diverse units of housing. Thanks, Kevin

Response:

I use and have found Guicken Pro more than capable of handling 8 different Vendors (Owners) with 1 to 200 units per Vendor.  More details if needed.   nojusticewiththis

Response:

Kevin, Real Estate Accounting Professionals Forum has user reviews on several property management packages. Rent Roll’s Account On It accounting package is strong in residential management. Go to http://www.reap.com/reap – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have suggestions on what type of software would be useful for managing residential rental property?  Scoftware needs to run on NT 4.0 and be capable of supporting an operation involving 30 geographicallly diverse units of housing. Thanks, Kevin

Response:

Hi, I would suggest you to look at Pastel Partner at http://www.1usi.com For ALL Resellers, VARs, CPAs, please visit our Partners page (NEW). rgds, JT

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone have suggestions on what type of software would be useful for managing residential rental property?  Scoftware needs to run on NT 4.0 and be capable of supporting an operation involving 30 geographicallly diverse units of housing. Thanks, Kevin

Response:

Question:

Sporting a New Name, Voodoo Economics Rises from the Dead

it is indeed … boo! Richard W. Stevenson of The New York Times, May 27, 1996

Some facts about taxes, the 1980s, and the 1981 tax rate cut Fact #1:  Tax revenues increased during the Reagan years Revenues received by the Federal Treasury increased every year from 1983 to 1990. Between 1980 and 1989, overall taxes paid moved from 19.3% of GNP to 19.1% of GNP.  Hardly significant.  What is significant is that, thanks to economic growth, the amount collected rose significantly during the 1980s (from $599 billion to $976 billion in nominal terms). The economy grew by one-third from 1983 to 1990.  In 1983, the German economy was one third the size of the U.S.  In effect, from 1983 to 1990, we created another Germany. This robust growth enabled tax revenue to increase in real terms, and the increased tax revenue paid for much of the increased spending. Fact #2: The Reagan tax rate cuts did not cost a lot in terms of Federal revenue The net cost of the Reagan tax cuts to tax revenues was about $33 billion dollars in 1985, only a fraction of the actual deficit, and much less of a revenue loss than the critics had contended.   The benefit was economic activity that was hundreds of billions higher than it otherwise would have been. [Source: Lawrence Lindsay " The Growth Experiment".] Fact #3: The idea that the rich got massive tax breaks in the Reagan years is unsubstantiated. As a matter of fact the total tax revenue did rise, and rise sharply it did. The rich folks (top 10% of earners) who carried 36.4% of the tax load in 1980 carried 42.9% of the load in 1990. However, they had the dollar amount they paid increased by 17.9%. The richest 5% of the population paid 36.4% of the income taxes collected in 1980. By 1990 they were paying 42.9% of the taxes. The myth that the rich got a big break under the Republicans is simply snake oil. The increase in the taxes paid despite the tax rate cuts came from the elimination of tax shelters and loopholes. -Wall Street Journal 8/5/92 Ronald Reagan cut income taxes *more* on the poorest Americans, by raising the standard and personal exemptions, than he did on the wealthy, when he cut the top rate of taxation from 70% to 50%. Income taxes were eliminated for households with an income of less than $10,000. Income taxes for people making between $20,000 and $50,000 were cut. Income tax RATES for "the wealthy" were cut, but actual receipts show them paying more taxes. Fact #4: Changing tax rates will CHANGE the level of taxable income. When faced with evidence that the rich paid more in taxes, it is argued, the rich had their incomes go up by more. Everyone seems to be failing to grasp the obvious and unstated connection here between taxable incomes and tax rates. Let me state it – changing tax rates will CHANGE the level of taxable income; the higher the tax rate, the greater the tax avoidance, and hence the lower the taxable revenue. In fact, at a certain point, you can raise tax rates and *lose* revenue, because the reduction in taxable revenue will more than offset the expected increase from the higher tax rate. The facts: – The tax rates were reduced on certain incomes in ‘81 – Their taxable incomes increased – Even at the lower rates, they paid more in taxes in absolute terms Yes, their incomes went up, but WHY did their incomes go up? When the tax rates were reduced, they were WILLING to subject more of their incomes to taxation, by reducing sheltered income, in the form of perqs, tax shelters, etc., and taking straight, taxable gains. By reducing the relative burden of each dollar of income – through reduced tax rates – people *willingly* carried a greater absolute revenue load.  Cuting tax rates was therefore a win/win situation both for taxpayers and for the Govt coffers. Now, some people live in a fantasyland where they see the increases in taxable income among the wealthy with moistened chops, wishing they could grab a larger piece of it, without it going away. It isn’t going to happen. Fact #5: Because of the Reagan 1981 tax cut, the top bracket taxpayers paid more taxes in absolute terms. Reagan’s 1981 tax cut included a provision to cut the top rate from 70% to 50%. The Government made more in revenues from the top-income taxpayers at the 50% rate in 1983 than they made at the 70% rate in 1981. The actual revenues collected from income bracket above $200,000, in billions: 1981 – $22.6 1982 – $26.6   1983 – $31.7 1984 – $40.4 1985 – $47.6 [ source - Lawrence Lindsay "The Growth Experiment" ] Fact #6: Raising and lowering taxes by itself does nothing to change the distribution in the economy of how much money goes to the rich and how much goes to the poor. Tax changes have two effects: They change how the economy (and the people in it) behaves and they change how much money goes to the IRS. Fact #7: The 1981 tax bill got several million people off the tax rolls. Indexing the personal exemption and tax brackets has ended the hidden tax increase that was due to inflation. The bracket creep, of which the Democrats were quite fond, was like an unvoted tax increase every year, bringing in more revenue while leaving less and less after-tax income to the taxpayer. It took the Reagan tax cut to end the nonsense, indexing tax rates to inflation as well as lowering tax rates. Fact #8:  There is nothing fair about tax rates that are so punitive that they raise less moeny than lower rates. "Fairness" is a vague and fuzzy notion that masks a redistributive agenda in the tax code.  It is clear that at least some leftists think fairness to the poor requires punitive taxation on the rich, even if it means (viz. the Laffer curve) getting less than maximal revenue. But "where the money is" in the U.S. economy is invariably the middle class. Changing tax rates on millionaires won’t affect Government revenues that much. So, when considering the fairness question, it is best to ask: How do we raise money to feed the Government, in a way that does the least damage to ordinary Americans?  The answer is that a tax system that has low rates will have the least ill effects, and such a system would be both good for the economy and fairest for Americans. Fact #9: You can destroy jobs with higher taxes, if you try hard enough. In 1990 a luxury tax was placed on boats and airplanes. It dried up demand for such things and had the unintended effect of destroying many jobs. Both the boating industry and Aircraft Industry tried desperately to convince Congress to repeal this tax. Sales slumped, and most manufacturers or retailers are ending up eating the tax in order to make sales. The U.S. boating industry and private aircraft industry were almost destroyed. Many companies had to lay off workers, and some went bankrupt. The net effect of this was to destroy up to 10,000 jobs, while the taxes actually raise were miniscule. Finally, after a few years of seeing this mistake in action, Congress repealed the surtax. Fact #10: The Reagan administration never suggested that the Reagan tax cuts would increase tax revenue.   In fact, the Reagan administration underestimated the Government revenue that would come to the treasury after the tax cuts were implemented. Fact #11: The Laffer curve is real: revenues are not maximized at 100% taxation. The argument for the existence of the curve is simple: If tax rates in a country were say 100%, there would no incentive to work, and so, nobody would (officially at least). They’d be better off working outside the official money economy; rather than work for someone else, they would engage in pursuits that had some benefit to themselves. Now suppose this socialist paradise decides to reduce the tax rate (pick a number less than 100%). What happens? Taxable economic activity begins to occur. And as taxable economic activity increases, tax revenues are created. Now, since any revenue generated is going to be more than was collected under the 100% tax rate, it follows that, in this instance, a reduction in tax rates has generated an increase in tax revenues. The debate about whether there is a curve is over; it is acknowledged that there is a curve and that you don’t maximize tax revenues at 100% rate.  The real debate then is: Where is the Laffer peak? That is, what tax rate will maximize revenue over the long run? Certainly, history has shown that there is a beneficial effect from lower tax rates.  When we reduced the top tax rates in 1964 from 75-90% down to 62-70%, revenues increased. For taxpayers earning over $500,000 in income, it leaped 30%. The evidence from the 1981 tax cuts is that the Laffer curve peak is well below 70% and probably below 50%.  In just a few years, the Federal Government took in more revenue from the top income bracket taxpayers at a 50% rate than at a 70% rate. "In addition, taxpayers in the $75,000 to $200,000 range, whose rate were cut from a range of 54-69 percent to a range of 38-50 percent, paid about 92 percent of what they would have paid under the old law." So cutting the rate from the 50% range to the 40% range lost very little revenue, even over the short term of a few years. Over the long run, it probably would be a net plus. Lower tax rates will ALWAYS generate greater economic activity even beyond the point where the increase in economic activity is insufficient to offset the loss of tax revenue due to the lower rate. The experience of the 1986 tax reform and the 1990 and 1993 tax increases show that tax rates above 30% yield small revenue gains relative to the expected direct-effect revenue. To put it in simple terms, tax rates above 30% are probably unwise, and tax rates above 50% are most certainly stupid.  [Source: Lawrence Lindsay's "The Growth Experiment"] " [in ... read more »

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Reagan's 1981 tax cut included a provision to cut the top rate from 70% to 50%. The Government made more in revenues from the top-income taxpayers at the 50% rate in 1983 than they made at the 70% rate in 1981. The actual revenues collected from income bracket above $200,000, in billions: 1981 - $22.6 1982 - $26.6 1983 - $31.7 1984 - $40.4 1985 - $47.6 [ source - Lawrence Lindsay "The Growth Experiment" ] As a result of the 1981 tax rate cut, the rich ended up paying more, while the poor ended up paying less. But that’s because rich incomes exploded while poor incomes stumbled.

Please explain the macro-economic event that occured between 1981 and 1983 that caused the income taxes paid by the rich to go from $22.6 billion to $31 billion. I would *really* like to hear you explanation as to *why* this happened. rates. As a result, the top 1 percent collectively earned more and paid more taxes, even though individual tax bills within those brackets went down.

True, but what event caused the increase in taxable income? The bottom line: the share of federal taxes paid by the top 1 percent increased because their incomes increased; the poor paid less because they made less.

I’ve dispensed with this canard elsewhere, the poor made more, but paid less in income taxes. Pat Budget fact:         Medicare spending, under the GOP Congressional plan that Clinton         vetoed for NOT SPENDING ENOUGH, had Medicare spending rising about 60%         over 7 years, from $175 billion in 1995 to $290 billion in 2002.         On a per-person basis, Medicare spending would rise in the plan         from $4700 to over $7000.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reagan’s 1981 tax cut included a provision to cut the top rate from 70% to 50%. The Government made more in revenues from the top-income taxpayers at the 50% rate in 1983 than they made at the 70% rate in 1981. The actual revenues collected from income bracket above $200,000, in billions: 1981 – $22.6 1982 – $26.6 1983 – $31.7 1984 – $40.4 1985 – $47.6 [ source - Lawrence Lindsay "The Growth Experiment" ] As a result of the 1981 tax rate cut, the rich ended up paying more, while the poor ended up paying less.

But that’s because rich incomes exploded while poor incomes stumbled. Individuals with incomes over $1 million saw their tax bills fall 35 percent from 1971 to 1991, from $960,430 to $628,973. But in 1971, only 883 people filed returns on more than $1 million in annual income. By 1991, that number had mushroomed to 51,555, a phenomenal increase, even after accounting for inflation. Even so, that 51,555 accounted for only one-twentieth of one percent of all income tax returns for that year. So who filled out the rest of the top 1 percent? Those in the income brackets of $500,000 to $1 million, and $200,000 to $500,000. From 1971 to 1991, the number of people in these income groups grew at similar phenomenal rates. As a result, the top 1 percent collectively earned more and paid more taxes, even though individual tax bills within those brackets went down. During the 80s, the top 1 percent increased their share of the national income from about 8 to 12-13 percent, an increase of more than 50 percent. Accordingly, the share of federal taxes paid by the top 1 percent grew from 18 to 27 percent over the decade, also an increase of 50 percent. Actually, this should have been dramatically higher than 50 percent, because traditionally the rich have paid the highest tax rates… but the tax cuts of the Reagan years significantly reduced the increase. The bottom line: the share of federal taxes paid by the top 1 percent increased because their incomes increased; the poor paid less because they made less. Steve Kangas http://www.scruz.net/~kangaroo/1THE_REAGAN_YEARs.htm

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Yes NJ benifited greatly from Reaganomics ….. but now it is time to pay the credit card! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Under Ronald Reagan, government revenue ROSE (much faster than in inflation), This is true. taxes also ROSE as a percentage of output. Um, don’t think so. As a percentage of GNP, taxes staayed about level between 1980 and 1988. Around, 19% of GNP. As for the much talked of "tax cuts for the rich" – tax revenue from the wealthy rose FASTER than other tax revenue. True.  For example: Reagan’s 1981 tax cut included a provision to cut the top rate from 70% to 50%. The Government made more in revenues from the top-income taxpayers at the 50% rate in 1983 than they made at the 70% rate in 1981. The actual revenues collected from income bracket above $200,000, in billions: 1981 – $22.6 1982 – $26.6 1983 – $31.7 1984 – $40.4 1985 – $47.6 [ source - Lawrence Lindsay "The Growth Experiment" ] As a result of the 1981 tax rate cut, the rich ended up paying more, while the poor ended up paying less. The problem of the United States is not low taxes (the federal government is taking a peacetime high percentage of output – over 30%) the problem is GOVERNMENT SPENDING – the "New Deal" and "Great Society" programs (all of which started out TINY) have EXPLODED over recent decades. True!

– "Imagination is more important than knowledge!"                                         Einstein http://mars.superlink.net/einstein               netscape 2.0 or better http://mars.superlink.net/einstein/einstein.html others

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Under Ronald Reagan, government revenue ROSE (much faster than in inflation),

This is true. taxes also ROSE as a percentage of output.

Um, don’t think so. As a percentage of GNP, taxes staayed about level between 1980 and 1988. Around, 19% of GNP. As for the much talked of "tax cuts for the rich" – tax revenue from the wealthy rose FASTER than other tax revenue.

True.  For example: Reagan’s 1981 tax cut included a provision to cut the top rate from 70% to 50%. The Government made more in revenues from the top-income taxpayers at the 50% rate in 1983 than they made at the 70% rate in 1981. The actual revenues collected from income bracket above $200,000, in billions: 1981 – $22.6 1982 – $26.6 1983 – $31.7 1984 – $40.4 1985 – $47.6 [ source - Lawrence Lindsay "The Growth Experiment" ] As a result of the 1981 tax rate cut, the rich ended up paying more, while the poor ended up paying less. The problem of the United States is not low taxes (the federal government is taking a peacetime high percentage of output – over 30%) the problem is GOVERNMENT SPENDING – the "New Deal" and "Great Society" programs (all of which started out TINY) have EXPLODED over recent decades.

True!

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Under Ronald Reagan, government revenue ROSE (much faster than in inflation), taxes also ROSE as a percentage of output. As for the much talked of "tax cuts for the rich" – tax revenue from the wealthy rose FASTER than other tax revenue. The problem of the United States is not low taxes (the federal government is taking a peacetime high percentage of output – over 30%) the problem is GOVERNMENT SPENDING – the "New Deal" and "Great Society" programs (all of which started out TINY) have EXPLODED over recent decades. Paul Marks.

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[Follow-ups trimmed]

PM Sporting a New Name, Voodoo Economics Rises from the Dead PM it is indeed … boo! PM PM PM Richard W. Stevenson of The New York Times, May 27, 1996 PM PM PM Some facts about taxes, the 1980s, and the 1981 tax rate cut PM PM Fact #1:  Tax revenues increased during the Reagan years PM PM Revenues received by the Federal Treasury increased every year from 1983 to PM 1990. 1) The old "Ronnie did better in some years than others," ploy.  Reagan was inaugurated in 1981.  That was Carter’s last budget.  That is Reagan’s basis.      What he is saying is that AFTER the tax cut, revenues increased. 2) Combined Personal and Corporate Income taxes were BELOW 1981 levels for most of Reagan’s term.  Indeed, the AVERAGE of these collections were below 1981. (Real doolar amounts.) 3) Social Security and Medicare taxes, however grew. 4) The consequences were:      A) a huge shift in tax burden.      B) a huge increase in the debt (helped along by Reagan’s bloat-the-Pentagon policy) since the tax increases on workers came LATER than the tax cuts for speculators. PM Between 1980 and 1989, overall taxes paid moved from 19.3% of GNP to PM 19.1% of GNP.  Hardly significant.  What is significant is that, thanks PM to economic growth, the amount collected rose significantly during the PM 1980s (from $599 billion to $976 billion in nominal terms). This NOMINAL growth was mainly because of INFLATION.  What real growth there was, was 65% in Social Security and Medicare taxes. PM The economy grew by one-third from 1983 to 1990.  In 1983, the German PM economy was one third the size of the U.S.  In effect, from 1983 to 1990, PM we created another Germany. This robust growth enabled tax revenue to increase PM in real terms, and the increased tax revenue paid for much of the PM increased spending. PM Again, Reagan’s first TWO years are only practice swings and Bush is not his chosen successor inheriting his team, but some alien from another galaxy.   (Except for Bush’s FIRST year.)      Leaving that aside, The growth from 1983 to 1990 (The seven FAT years of the Reagan-Bush 12) had a growth of 3.5% (I’m using Fiscal Years.)  That is just the normal rate for the economy 1950-1981. — Frank Palmer

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Sporting a New Name, Voodoo Economics Rises from the Dead Richard W. Stevenson of The New York Times, May 27, 1996 WASHINGTON–After years in the political wilderness, while official Washington focused on deficit reduction, Republican proponents of deep tax cuts are once again getting a serious hearing within their party. They no longer call themselves supply siders, preferring the designation "pro-growth," because of the perceived failure of their policies in the Reagan presidency. And they have updated their 1980s approach for the political realities of the 1990s, seeing their best opportunity since 1980 to make their ideology central to the Republican agenda. They are arguing that both the condition of the economy today and the political fight faced by Sen. Bob Dole in his presidential campaign now make the time right to commit to the sweeping tax cuts they advocate. And Dole, long one of their strongest foes in the party, is listening this time. He appears to be moving toward a tax cut, perhaps a 15 percent across-the-board reduction in marginal tax rate, the percentage paid on the on last dollar earned. Trailing President Clinton in the polls and still trying to define his economic message, Dole displayed his willingness to refocus his policies when he met last week with Steve Forbes, whose unsuccessful presidential campaign was built on a flat tax. Advisers to Dole say that if he is elected he is expected to embrace a long-term, fundamental overhaul of the tax system to bring rates down. But more immediately he appears to be settling on a tax cut within the existing system as a "down payment" on long-term change, one adviser said. Some Republicans, feeling they were burned once when supply-side tax cuts contributed to soaring budget deficits, remain wary. And Democrats have promised to attack any large-scale tax-cut proposals by asking which popular programs Republicans would trim to pay for them. Economists continue to cast doubts on some of the central tenets of the supply siders’ philosophy, like the argument that tax cuts will lead to higher savings rates. Wall Street would almost certainly punish any tax-cutting program that threatened to undo the progress made on the deficit by pushing up interest rates. Still, Dole is leaning heavily for economic advice on a group of Republican senators, including Connie Mack of Florida, Robert F. Bennett of Utah and Spencer Abraham of Michigan, who favor a much stronger emphasis on tax cutting. Strong support for the 15-percent cut has come from Bruce Bartlett, a former Reagan and Bush administration official. Bartlett’s tax- cut strategy could also win the support of some Dole staff members, several of whom are former aides to Jack F. Kemp, the former housing secretary who is the current Republican standard bearer for the "growth" wing of the party. To some degree, the supply siders have been chastened by their experience in the Reagan years, when tax cuts and continued increases in spending led to budget deficits that have yet to be controlled. For the most part, the supply siders have dropped their argument that tax cuts can fully pay for themselves by generating greater economic growth. Most economists believe that that position, labeled "voodoo economics" by George Bush in the 1980 primary campaign, was ultimately disproved in the 1980s. And few of them still adhere to the hard-line supply-side position that budget deficits do not matter. But supply siders point to what they consider the success of Gov. Christie Whitman of New Jersey in slashing both spending and taxes as a model for what can be achieved in today’s political environment. "There was a period when Republicans were embarrassed by the deficits, and through a conspiracy of silence allowed the Democrats to blame Reagan," Bennett said. "Then the realization that the Clinton tax increases had slowed growth has caused a lot of Republicans to come out and say that maybe on the growth side Reagan had it right, and that we just needed more restraint on the spending side," Bennett said. "Dole has now figured out that you can have growth and still focus on the deficit." There is a general consensus among economists that the U.S. economy is currently not capable of growing any faster in the long run than 2 percent to 2.5 percent a year, a rate that is sluggish by historical standards. The supply side case is built on the argument that the economy is not growing at its full potential in large part because of a high tax burden. Clinton, of course, has a different argument, that the slow but steady growth rates, low inflation and low unemployment rates of the last few years show that the economy is as sound as it has been in decades. While there is no clear economic consensus about the precise benefits of tax cuts, the supply siders are throwing out an election-year barrage of statistics to make their case. Bartlett calculated that federal taxes as a percentage of total economic output last year were just slightly less than the record 20.8 percent they reached before Ronald Reagan won the White House in 1980. Supply-side adherents say the economy needed the kind of boost a "pro-growth" policy can provide now more than ever before. Unless the economy can sustain higher growth rates, they contend, not only will people have trouble improving their living standards, but longer-range problems like paying the Social Security bill for today’s working baby boomers will be close to insoluble. Moreover, they say, a "pro-growth" strategy makes good political sense by providing a powerful way for Republicans to capitalize on the economic anxiety felt by so many Americans. In particular, a tax reduction proposal would provide the Republicans a way to sharpen their criticism of Clinton for supporting a tax increase in 1993. "What we should be saying is that the anxiety is coming about because of the high tax burden on the economy," Mack said. "We are for lower marginal tax rates. Lower marginal tax rates allow the worker to keep more of his paycheck and businesses to keep more of their profits and to put that money back into investment that creates more jobs and opportunity." None of the Republicans have dared to begin listing where they would look for additional budget cuts to pay for any rate reductions. Indeed, supply siders acknowledge that they face a big job in convincing doubters that a big tax cut will not lead to rising budget deficits. But with both Democrats and Republicans committed to balancing the budget by 2002 they said they could make a credible case that tax reduction and controlling the deficit could go hand in hand. "Now, unlike in the 1980s, we have done a reasonable job of beginning to restrain the growth of spending," said Abraham, who advocates the 15-percent across-the-board cut. "A tax cut that’s growth oriented and dynamic in impact, against a backdrop of spending restraint, is not going to explode the deficit." "I’m here, I’m in your face, and I’m Republican. Get used to it, I’m a freshman!"  Steve Stockman (R-Texas) to Environmental Protesters

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