Question:

Yet I am amazed that neither the firm nor the news media have addressed the real core problem: buying financial products from the same firm that is paid to review and comment on those products.

Like I stated in another post:  As long as the books can be cooked, and you’re the chef, the guy that picks out the menu, the food critic, the dishwasher, and the health inspector, there’s tons of room for trouble. One day we’ll be on an even par with used car salesman.  The only question is whether or not we’ll get there by pulling ourselves out of this mess. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

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The principle of avoiding conflict of interest is one of the oldest in the advisory profession.  Advisers who violate this principle, in my opinion, have no real defense in a claim of professional malpractice when the objectivity of their advice is challenged.  On the flip side, clients who take advice from product sellers – regardless of how wealthy the client or prestigious the adviser – do so at their own peril.  Many KPMG clients are learning this basic lesson from the IRS the hard way.

I agree with both points, as will many of the regulars here. Welcome to the group.  Hope to hear more from you. Jim

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Op/Ed on Tax Shelter Litigation by Tony Novak, MBA. MT While litigation over abusive tax shelters continues around the country, the IRS released new information in court documents this week showing that at least some KPMG employees were aware of legal problems with the tax shelter products the firm was selling to its clients.   The IRS cited internal memos discussing "troublesome issues" with the products. The Wall Street Journal (6/25/03) quoted a statement issued by KPMG LLP on June 24 saying that the firm would not comment on the internal memos released in the lawsuit but instead said that the firm provides "appropriate tax-planning services to our clients, which is fully supported by the Internal Revenue Code and related regulations."  Yet I am amazed that neither the firm nor the news media have addressed the real core problem: buying financial products from the same firm that is paid to review and comment on those products.  This is simply a bad practice.  The industry and the public would be better served by acknowledging the issue and then moving forward.  KPMG would do far better by admitting the systematic flaw in its business procedure and take a leadership role in adapting new corrective policies.  The solution is really simple: clients should buy financial products from one firm and get their tax & professional opinions from another firm. If I was a public relations adviser to KPMG, I would have them revise their press statement to say "KMPG acknowledges participating in the industry-wide practice of selling financial products and receiving commissions on the sale of financial products to our tax clients.  We recognize that this practice creates an inherent conflict of interest and may impair our ability to provide completely objective tax advice.  We have changed our business practice and now do not sell products or receive commissions from the accounts of our tax clients."  This statement would go a long way toward restoring public faith in the accounting industry.  Yet a discussion of this simple principle still ruffles the feathers of many accounting firms that have switched from providing solely tax and accounting services to providing financial planning and investment services.  Multiple income sources have now become the norm in the accounting profession despite the recent IRS crackdown. Of course, this is not the only hot issue rocking the accounting industry. After a rash of recent scandals that made national headlines, accountants no longer provide financial planning advice to executives within the firms where they provide audit services. The accounting industry had no choice but to revise its practice or risk public scorn and additional federal regulation.  The tax shelter problem seems to be running the same course, but at a much slower pace since these issues are not front-page news.  It might take another threat of federal legislation or a rash of civil judgments against CPA firms before the accounting industry revises its practice of providing tax advice to clients who purchase financial products. The principle of avoiding conflict of interest is one of the oldest in the advisory profession.  Advisers who violate this principle, in my opinion, have no real defense in a claim of professional malpractice when the objectivity of their advice is challenged.  On the flip side, clients who take advice from product sellers – regardless of how wealthy the client or prestigious the adviser – do so at their own peril.  Many KPMG clients are learning this basic lesson from the IRS the hard way. *** Articles are archived online at www.tonynovak.com.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve done my google searches both web and group, read reviews on CNET….  for the best small business accounting software.  Obviously it would be for my Ebay sales. The main contenders are Quickbooks, Peachtree, MYOB… If the Editor chose it, the individual Reviews panned it.  I couldn’t find a clear recommendation so I’m turning to the newsgroup to ask…… Should I just go with Quickbooks, or am I missing something? First, great response from Tony Cooper.  I learned a few things. Here’s how I track my modest eBay business. I track the money flow in Quicken 2001.

If you use Quicken for your regular household accounts, I think it’s better to install a second Quicken version just for eBay.  You can run almost as many separate Quicken installations as you choose to.  Just give them a new name and maybe put them in a separate directory. Doesn’t cost you a dime more. Your reports are cleaner and you can view your status easier. Don’t overlook that you can create special reports with Quicken.  You can use it to break down certain situations (ie:  canceled sales due to non-payment). — Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s

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Tony, Thank you Very Much!   I printed your reply, and am now scratching my head and figuring out how to apply your excellent suggestions. It seems very straightforward, I’m going to run through some practice transactions to get the hang of it. Thanks again, and have a great weekend. Douglas

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tony, Thank you for taking the time to answer my question so thoroughly. You raised the questions that have been making my choice so difficult! I don’t want an endless database!  I was going to treat each sale as an "Ebay" sale…giving me one customer, and use the Listing Number as a PO # so I could have some reference…. I sell Jewelry with some repeat items, but mainly one of a kinds. So I don’t really need to "track" inventory levels at all, I could easily have a few categories and adjust the levels accordingly. My needs are just as you assumed.  I need to keep track of my: Ebay Sales, NJ Ebay Sales for Tax liabilities… Ebay Seller Fees PayPal Fees CreditCard Charges… Expenses/Supplies/Freight…. Profits/Owner Draw And to provide me with whatever Reports I will need for my Taxes at Year End. I use Quiken for my own personal needs, but I’m not sure how I would get that to work for tracking Income/Expenses….. Any more insight is Much Appreciated! Tony, Thanks again for your thorough reply!  I’m sure there are a few more like me out there trying to work this out! Regards, Douglas

If you own Quicken, just re-install it on your computer under a new name in a new directory.  (Don’t uninstall the present one ) Use your existing Quicken as you have been.  Use the new Quicken for the eBay business. In Quicken, you set up your own chart of accounts.  Just set up expense  accounts like "Postage and Shipping", "Shipping Supplies", "Fees and Commissions" (the eBay charge for a sold item), "Inventory cost" for cost of your jewelry, and any other routine costs you wish to track.   Treat money received and paid out as a checking account or petty cash account unless you have a separate checking account for eBay. Periodically "write" a check from this Quicken account to Doug and treat it as Salary.  You don’t actually print a check, but this keeps the "checking account" to nominal figures.  Same with the credit card account(s), Using Quicken will tell you year-to-date how much you have sold, how much you have spent by category, the status of your PayPal account, and what your net profit is.  You can print out nice summarizing reports. OK, I saved you a few hundred dollars in showing you how to use what you have instead of buying a new program.  Feel free to share the savings.  I accept Personal Checks, money orders, and PayPal. Set up "Sales" as your income account.     — Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s

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I’ve done my google searches both web and group, read reviews on CNET….  for the best small business accounting software.  Obviously it would be for my Ebay sales. The main contenders are Quickbooks, Peachtree, MYOB… If the Editor chose it, the individual Reviews panned it.  I couldn’t find a clear recommendation so I’m turning to the newsgroup to ask…… Should I just go with Quickbooks, or am I missing something?

First, great response from Tony Cooper.  I learned a few things. Here’s how I track my modest eBay business. I track the money flow in Quicken 2001.  I have a category called Ebay which my income from sales and expenses such as shipping and Ebay/PayPal fees flow through.  I do my merchandise purchases for sale kind of funny though.  When I buy some stuff to sell, I initially put it in the Misc category and then move it to the Ebay category as it sells.  It’s kind of a pain, but then when I view my Ebay category it’s including only the cost of goods sold.  I can look at my Misc category to get an idea of the value of my unsold merchandise. Then, I created a database in Microsoft Access to track my inventory and details on every sale.  I’ve had several return customers as of late so that has been especially useful to have their order history right there for me to look at.  Also allows me to make notes on each customer for if they buy from me again.  And of course I’ve set up some nifty reports.  One I like to look at a lot is my gross monthly sales to see if I’ll ever have a chance of becoming a Bronze power seller.  :-)  For April, I’m at $269 so far.  So, I dont’ think it’s going to happen any time soon! I use the average costing method for my inventory in the database so my numbers will never exactly match what is in Quicken unless I sell *everything*.  In Quicken, I use FIFO for inventory cost, moving the oldest merchandise from Misc to Ebay as it sells. Hope that helps. Kris

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Tony, Thank you for taking the time to answer my question so thoroughly. You raised the questions that have been making my choice so difficult! I don’t want an endless database!  I was going to treat each sale as an "Ebay" sale…giving me one customer, and use the Listing Number as a PO # so I could have some reference…. I sell Jewelry with some repeat items, but mainly one of a kinds. So I don’t really need to "track" inventory levels at all, I could easily have a few categories and adjust the levels accordingly. My needs are just as you assumed.  I need to keep track of my:  Ebay Sales,  NJ Ebay Sales for Tax liabilities… Ebay Seller Fees PayPal Fees CreditCard Charges… Expenses/Supplies/Freight…. Profits/Owner Draw And to provide me with whatever Reports I will need for my Taxes at Year End. I use Quiken for my own personal needs, but I’m not sure how I would get that to work for tracking Income/Expenses….. Any more insight is Much Appreciated! Tony, Thanks again for your thorough reply!  I’m sure there are a few more like me out there trying to work this out! Regards, Douglas

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I’ve done my google searches both web and group, read reviews on CNET….  for the best small business accounting software.  Obviously it would be for my Ebay sales. The main contenders are Quickbooks, Peachtree, MYOB… If the Editor chose it, the individual Reviews panned it.  I couldn’t find a clear recommendation so I’m turning to the newsgroup to ask…… Should I just go with Quickbooks, or am I missing something?

I use QuickBooks for my business (not an eBay business) and have done so for 10 years.  I’ve never used Peachtree or MYOB. For the life of me, though, I can’t imagine why you would want to use a program like any of these three for an eBay business.  Two of the basic reasons to use QuickBooks, in my experience, is for inventory control and accounts receivable and payable management.  Neither of these really apply to an eBay business. Unless you have some special type of product line, your inventory is not a matter of having X number of product #1234 in stock, and reordering that same product when inventory is low.  I carry over 500 line items, but I reorder each of those line items as inventory diminishes.  If your line item number of inventory items is less than 25, you don’t need QB.  That’s line items, not items in inventory. If each item you sell, or the majority of items you sell, is different than the last one, you will go crazy (and build a huge file) creating a new inventory listing for each item. QB is also designed for a fairly fixed customer base.  You can have as many as you like, but each will stay with you forever.   Each one has to be entered like each item of inventory has to be entered.  I would think than an eBay business is concerned with a transaction and not a customer record.   Admittedly, I don’t know what type of products you sell on eBay, and what your requirements are.  I would guess, though, that your primary interest is keeping track of sales figures, managing your checking account, managing your PayPal account, and managing credit card accounts. You can do all of that – far cheaper and easier – with Quicken.  The only disadvantage to Quicken is the lack of inventory management.  You could use a MS Works spreadsheet program for this for next to nothing in cost. I use both QuickBooks (business) and Quicken (personal and eBay).  I print my own checks in Quicken and QuickBooks on blank check stock with the Versa-Check program.   You really can’t expect good answers to your question unless you explain what your objectives are in using a program.  First, you make a short list of what you want to do and accomplish.  Then, you ask what program will do this the easiest for the least amount of investment. If you want information on the use of either Quicken or QuickBooks, I’d be glad to answer an e-mail. — Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s

Response:

I’ve done my google searches both web and group, read reviews on CNET….  for the best small business accounting software.  Obviously it would be for my Ebay sales. The main contenders are Quickbooks, Peachtree, MYOB… If the Editor chose it, the individual Reviews panned it.  I couldn’t find a clear recommendation so I’m turning to the newsgroup to ask…… Should I just go with Quickbooks, or am I missing something? TIA, Douglas

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-No-Archive: yes I wasn’t allowed to work and I didn’t get an allowance very often – so… I had to beg or manipulate for what I wanted.  Literally. Finally right before I went to college I was allowed to babysit a little. When I got to college spending money was very sparce so I got a job building scenery. But then of course my allowance was taken away.   I went for one year and I got real tired of being controlled long distance by purse strings. I left home – got a full time job – struggled like hell but I finally found a way to stop all that controlling stuff.  Sometimes I lived on oatmeal and peanut butter.  But I was free.

*Amen* I think of that as your taking the conservative approach.  You made choices that caused you to be successful and self-sufficient. If you had a clone (as pleasant as that thought otherwise is) and she had said "Somebody (society) should *give* me my tuition and leave me alone", that would be a lady of the "liberal" outlook. I think in terms of small towns (Population 134, when I grew up there). That is my "society". I couldn’t fathom saying "Mr coal miner, 9th grade gruduate, feeding 4 kids, I expect *you* to pay my tuition".  Nor could I say that I feel "discouraged" or "disadvantaged", so the fellow who built the hardware store, or the lady who operates the small diner should get me a house, groceries, whatever…. That’s my society.  And, if we skip society and go on to "the government", my government is the fellow who threw the switches at a local rail yard, because he was our mayor.  Do I count on him to squeeze money out of the other people in town so I can have what I want and don’t intend to pay for? When we grow to the faceless anonymity of large cities, when the folks we want to take from have no identity in our minds, it’s easy to feel that *somebody* should be giving something so that I don’t have to get up and go to work in the morning.  Of course they *will* have to work to get money to pay us *not* to work  :)} SpiritQuest Where are *they* with my new Corvette, dammit }

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And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide. Unfortunately, I cannot agree with any of the definitions thus far

That’s a natural.  I think that the greater our distaste with one group of people, the  more we lump that group into the misguided.  While I’m more focused on the conservative "middle class" or even the "Southern Democrat", it looks like you’re focused on the industrialist. provided. There too many wealthy conservatives who did not earn the trust fund or the inheritance that they so bitterly do not want to pay taxes on, who collect social security as well as utterly unearned pensions ( golden parachutes ) who open a post office box in Bermuda to avoid paying corporate taxes, who find greasy accountants to help them avoid paying personal income taxes on "farms" ( tax shelters)

There’s the difference in our backgrounds and emotional makeup.  I don’t mind those who are wealthy, however they came by it.  I’d like to be able to pass on more to my kids and have them keep it.  I’m "dramatically overinsured" for that.  And, should one of my offspring, the really financially oriented one, wind up with a 25K tax bill vs his laid back brother’s 2K tax bill, I’d like to see ways for him to trim it back to a reasonable share, a bit more equal.  I can’t see him paying for his brother’s choice of jobs after his brother eliminates those that don’t have the social rewards, or that are too high-stress to consider. that they are being *paid subsidies* to not grow upon, who lambast welfare as they lobby for government "assistance" in setting up foriegn manufacturing, and they will be the last to recognize that they are suckling at the teat of public largesse. There were only

I think you’re talking corporations rather than individuals.  That’s a different (I think) problem.  How do you compete and stay alive with your $30 an hour auto worker against the $1.25 an hour Korean making a Hyundai. Something has to give.  And, I look at that auto worker and their "right" to charge that much for building a car to be sold to an $8 shoe salesman. conservatives who lobbied for a provision in the NAFTA treaty to allow corporations to sue governments if government regulations "damaged" their ability to make a profit. There is a lawsuit being played out in California right now, the Canadian manufacturer of a gasoline additive found to be harmful, is suing for $750,000,000.00.

I hadn’t heard of that one.  Wonder if it will go anywhere.  I recall autoworkers (my natural reference, since I’m in Detroit) getting 90% of their nice paycheck though they weren’t working, because other americans were being allowed to buy Japanese cars and were choosing to do so.  Don’t know what the bill was for that. And, we grow up with "they", this unidentiable entity that’s supposed to move in and be a good Dad to us, if we follow the liberal line of thinking (Hey, canya tell I’m a conservative). It is far more complicated than Jack’s black and white universe.               Colin

It’s more complicated than any of us with our particular viewpoint can assess, I expect.  Still, the exchange is educational and beats hell out of the "Yo Mama!" threads } SpiritQuest

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know some good but bitter folks at the local state agencies who complain that the help available to those who *need* it, is so little because such a big portion goes to those who don’t, but who "fit the formula". SpiritQuest soup kitchen server but it’s voluntary I can’t even get engaged with discussions down here on the street level, I am pissed about the upper levels, the pet military contracts for expensive hardware that even the military does not want, but that some contractor padded through some legislator’s bill,

I’ve seen all the sides to that, since I’ve been in that sort of function. The army’s wants go to congress, and often the individual representatives fold in more products from their state, saying "We put $xxxxx into the tax coffers and the share coming back as work for people in my state isn’t in line".  I’ve gotten info "back door" to congress to buy more of the "mundane" equipment because it was smart economically rather than keeping the older stuff.  I’ve also seen contractors get contracts for stuff that was "nice to have" but not necessary because they were the only organization that could produce the "need to have" a couple years down the line and they’d lose their experienced employees, the tooling, and the plant that could produce the "need to have" stuff.  Endless shades of grey. the junkets to foriegn lands for "fact-finding" the appalling claims that the U.S.

They look a bit silly when they’re caught.  I watch regular working folks here, trying to "get over" whenever they can.  I don’t expect higher standards from congresscritters. just "cannot afford" to help out with heating bills or skyrocketing tuition, but we will find the money to paste Iraq a good one. We can afford to do almost anything. We can. We choose not to.

Ah, and there’s where I go in a different direction than some.  My sons (second one just moved back home) have a $0 heating bill because they made the choice to accept Dad’s roof with Dad’s restrictions.  If there are millions out there who could do that (and I exempt the abused from this contention, naturally), how much should be taken from my check for those who expect a standard of living that they can’t afford, or how much from the small checks my sons get.  The 20 year old who wants a new car and nice apartment with no roomies may be "underprivileged" or may just be unrealistic.  A few years, some more education, and some "up the corporate" ladder is a cure they can implement rather than looking for a cure from someone else.              Colin

SpiritQuest

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I know some good but bitter folks at the local state agencies who complain that the help available to those who *need* it, is so little because such a big portion goes to those who don’t, but who "fit the formula". SpiritQuest soup kitchen server but it’s voluntary

I can’t even get engaged with discussions down here on the street level, I am pissed about the upper levels, the pet military contracts for expensive hardware that even the military does not want, but that some contractor padded through some legislator’s bill, the junkets to foriegn lands for "fact-finding" the appalling claims that the U.S. just "cannot afford" to help out with heating bills or skyrocketing tuition, but we will find the money to paste Iraq a good one. We can afford to do almost anything. We can. We choose not to.              Colin

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Political liberalism is, at base, the philosophy that personal liberty and the good of the individual is supreme to other political concerns. Liberals frame their political views as being in defense of individual liberties.  

Conservatives have hijacked that sentiment when it comes to making money, "less government interference" they say. . . . I think of liberals as those who grew up understanding that the deck can be stacked against you at birth, and that therefore some public redress may be  appropriate.

And conservatives will look to the government to protect them from the world economy, public redress in the name of tariffs and subsidies and the use of Federal lands for personal profits in mining and timber. And, I suppose, conservatives may require public redress to further their  agenda against individual choice and the private morality of one’s sexual orientation and nowadays, even their Post-Homeland Security Bill reading choices at the local library. . . . From what I understand, the essence of conservatism is its emphasis on tradition as a source of wisdom that goes beyond what can be demonstrated or even explicitly stated.  Traditional values – hard work is rewarded, saving money will provide for your needs – don’t always work out as anticipated, at least in my opinion.  Not for everyone.

The traditions of the Capitalist Barons are rich indeed. . .                Colin

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eek. liberal *is* the middle. anyway, it was once

It is a scary story, the story of how liberal became a dirty word. . . .           Colin

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Colin!!!  LTNS!!! welcome back! azure

Hello Azure, I have capitalized your A in recognition of this most August moment.          Colin

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Very thought-provoking, Jack. The part I pasted above is the only one I thoroughly disagree with. That’s why I pasted it here. I think the problem that causes all of this vitriolic right/left conservative/liberal clap-trap runs deeper. What do you believe the deeper problem is?           Colin You’re saying that you embrace the liberal sentiment on all the other issues?

No. I said that I agreed with you. And you ask what the problem is?

I don’t need to ask. I can see it right here. You’re so damn stuck in a us/them mentality that you completely missed the fact that I agreed with you. I refuse to get stuck in us/them conservative/liberal right/left, but, nonetheless find that I get pigeonholed anyway.                      Colin

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Heya Colin, and welcome back.  Missed seein ya }

Hey. I’ll lay the "blame" for the differences on families.  When Joe and Ralph are teenagers and want something, and one dad digs into his pocket, while the other responds with "I had a paper-delivery job when I was your age", I think that’s a clear sign of the differences we grow up with.

On an individual level, I had to earn my way to freedom. Jack, I think, would not know that about me. And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide.

Unfortunately, I cannot agree with any of the definitions thus far provided. There too many wealthy conservatives who did not earn the trust fund or the inheritance that they so bitterly do not want to pay taxes on, who collect social security as well as utterly unearned pensions ( golden parachutes ) who open a post office box in Bermuda to avoid paying corporate taxes, who find greasy accountants to help them avoid paying personal income taxes on "farms" ( tax shelters) that they are being *paid subsidies* to not grow upon, who lambast welfare as they lobby for government "assistance" in setting up foriegn manufacturing, and they will be the last to recognize that they are suckling at the teat of public largesse. There were only conservatives who lobbied for a provision in the NAFTA treaty to allow corporations to sue governments if government regulations "damaged" their ability to make a profit. There is a lawsuit being played out in California right now, the Canadian manufacturer of a gasoline additive found to be harmful, is suing for $750,000,000.00. And, we grow up with "they", this unidentiable entity that’s supposed to move in and be a good Dad to us, if we follow the liberal line of thinking (Hey, canya tell I’m a conservative).

It is far more complicated than Jack’s black and white universe.               Colin

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this "creed" perfectly describes the thinking of every liberal leftist i have ever met!

"liberal leftist" is an oxymoron. the left has no political voice in north america at the present time. cal

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this "creed" perfectly describes the thinking of every liberal leftist i have ever met! "liberal leftist" is an oxymoron. the left has no political voice in north america at the present time. cal

Actually, a liberal sociopolitical mindset has dominated Canada and the US for 40+ years. BroJack

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this "creed" perfectly describes the thinking of every liberal leftist i have ever met! thank you for posting it, BroJack. i will use it as resource material the next time i am being lambasted for being a conservative. ps. i always admire your clear and concise point of view. you have a powerful mind and you aren’t afraid to use it. i like that.

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I agree Catherine – the truth of the matter lays somewhere in the middle of either position.

eek. liberal *is* the middle. anyway, it was once cal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, you … I’m not an expert on the whole liberal/conservative question by any means.  I can speak, at most, from my own experience.  And I’m not going to talk about Alan or Jack or anyone specifically, eh? Now, if I just *bought* my first .22 rifle, and the fellow next to me was complaining that he wished he had one, but his dad just *refused* to get him one, we have a conservative and liberal sitting side-by-side. I think I disagree.  I know I want to think about this.  I’m just learning to frame my own political views (belatedly) so bear with me, eh? Political liberalism is, at base, the philosophy that personal liberty and the good of the individual is supreme to other political concerns. Liberals frame their political views as being in defense of individual liberties.  The "left" can range from modern liberalism, extending through social democrats and moderate socialists into communism.  My mother (age 83) is a life-long liberal (self-described) – educated during the Depression and shaped by the Union movement – much as your father was a union activist, I think I recall you saying.  Her father was a coal-miner.  She doesn’t see herself as having had a life of entitlement, but rather as having compassion for those who cannot partake of what this society has to offer through no fault of their own. And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide. I think of liberals as those who grew up understanding that the deck can be stacked against you at birth, and that therefore some public redress may be  appropriate. From what I understand, the essence of conservatism is its emphasis on tradition as a source of wisdom that goes beyond what can be demonstrated or even explicitly stated.  Traditional values – hard work is rewarded, saving money will provide for your needs – don’t always work out as anticipated, at least in my opinion.  Not for everyone. Catherine

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Hey, you … I’m not an expert on the whole liberal/conservative question by any means.  I can speak, at most, from my own experience.  And I’m not going to talk about Alan or Jack or anyone specifically, eh? Now, if I just *bought* my first .22 rifle, and the fellow next to me was complaining that he wished he had one, but his dad just *refused* to get him one, we have a conservative and liberal sitting side-by-side.

I think I disagree.  I know I want to think about this.  I’m just learning to frame my own political views (belatedly) so bear with me, eh? Political liberalism is, at base, the philosophy that personal liberty and the good of the individual is supreme to other political concerns. Liberals frame their political views as being in defense of individual liberties.  The "left" can range from modern liberalism, extending through social democrats and moderate socialists into communism.  My mother (age 83) is a life-long liberal (self-described) – educated during the Depression and shaped by the Union movement – much as your father was a union activist, I think I recall you saying.  Her father was a coal-miner.  She doesn’t see herself as having had a life of entitlement, but rather as having compassion for those who cannot partake of what this society has to offer through no fault of their own. And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide.

I think of liberals as those who grew up understanding that the deck can be stacked against you at birth, and that therefore some public redress may be  appropriate. From what I understand, the essence of conservatism is its emphasis on tradition as a source of wisdom that goes beyond what can be demonstrated or even explicitly stated.  Traditional values – hard work is rewarded, saving money will provide for your needs – don’t always work out as anticipated, at least in my opinion.  Not for everyone. Catherine

Response:

Hey, you … I’m not an expert on the whole liberal/conservative question by any means.  I can speak, at most, from my own experience.  And I’m not going to talk about Alan or Jack or anyone specifically, eh?

Well, *I’m* an expert on *everything*, so I’ll give you wise counsel where appropriate, saving the *inappropriate* for other than political positions } Now, if I just *bought* my first .22 rifle, and the fellow next to me was complaining that he wished he had one, but his dad just *refused* to get him one, we have a conservative and liberal sitting side-by-side. I think I disagree.  I know I want to think about this.  I’m just learning to frame my own political views (belatedly) so bear with me, eh?

I have nothing against nudism } Political liberalism is, at base, the philosophy that personal liberty and the good of the individual is supreme to other political concerns. Liberals frame their political views as being in defense of individual

I think the difference between the liberal and the conservative is the matter of whose liberties are to be preserved.  I contend that you can’t grant more liberty to one person without taking some liberty from another, but I hear what you’re saying. liberties.  The "left" can range from modern liberalism, extending through social democrats and moderate socialists into communism.  My mother (age 83) is a life-long liberal (self-described) – educated during the Depression and shaped by the Union movement – much as your father was a union activist, I think I recall you saying.  Her father was a coal-miner.  She doesn’t see herself as having had a life of entitlement, but rather as having compassion for those who cannot partake of what this society has to offer through no fault of their own.

Yep, Dad was a union type, at the lower-mid level.  And his son was (and is) pretty well against the union’s representation of "management".  We never had an argument.  We talked about fishing. I understand that.  If we use the word "cannot", we get into shades of grey, but by *my* definition "Even if needed to, to keep someone from dropping my child off a cliff", that works for me.  Provide for those who cannot. And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide. I think of liberals as those who grew up understanding that the deck can be stacked against you at birth, and that therefore some public redress may be  appropriate.

Catherine!  :)}   Is this a test of self-control?  "redress"?  and in *public* yet?  ……OK, back to pretending to be sane.  I like the word "assistance", not as in "public assistance" which means get on and stay on. I’m closer to "OK, I picked you up, now walk". From what I understand, the essence of conservatism is its emphasis on tradition as a source of wisdom that goes beyond what can be demonstrated or even explicitly stated.  Traditional values – hard work is rewarded, saving money will provide for your needs – don’t always work out as anticipated, at least in my opinion.  Not for everyone.

I think that, from the dictionary definition and the poly-sci definition, that’s probably it.  I think of what you said above as "self-responsibility", and the alternative as something akin to "poor me". Then again, I’m just a wee bit to the conservative side } Still, where we seem to encounter our anger is in rationalizing our wants into either the conservative or liberal framework.  When my taxes drop from 25K to 23K because of some tax break, and someone who didn’t see a drop in the 3K he pays for the same services actually *complains* about the great deal I got, I get a bit tense in the shoulders. I think the liberal election platform is that you *can* have more circuses and cotton candy and nobody will *really* have to pay for it. When the social cushion is such that it’s a better deal than getting an entry-level job and living with whomever you can get to share expenses, we encourage folks *not* to work.  I’ve actually interviewed folks who told me they would be very *bad* secretaries, but had to come in in order to continue to get the benefits they were currently getting.  I have other folks with that level of income who have a roomie or two and who do quite well. Catherine

*SMoooooch* Glad you’ve joined into this.  Always good to see another moderate like myself } SpiritQuest looking hard at April 15 the *cost* of liberalism }

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X-No-Archive: yes I agree Catherine – the truth of the matter lays somewhere in the middle of either position.

Yes, and…..er….. um….. OK, you two are plotting against me } And when you thru with the middle of the position you do a public redress. and, then folks come along and blame poor ole SQ  :)} SpiritQuest So, pushing my funny button eh?  :)}

Response:

X-No-Archive: yes I think of that as your taking the conservative approach.  You made choices that caused you to be successful and self-sufficient. In the end – but it was a long hard often hungry trip.

But you didn’t make someone *else’s* life hungrier, doing it that way. Well – I’ve always been a mixture.  In my 30’s I went back to school – worked two jobs and got some grants – did it on my own.  Years later my mother bought me a car with the money they didn’t spend on my college. She took twenty years to offer that and it took me that long to be able to accept it.

I *strongly* believe in family.  I wonder how many folks are getting social assistance because it’s a simple alternative to helping each other.  Why should my sister be $3000 short when I can get that amount from "society"? I don’t remember ever thinking that kind of thing.  I was stubborn to a fault.  What I got I earned myself.

Same here.  Traded college for 5 years of military service, and did night school to get more degrees.  That makes me "lucky" in the eyes of those who didn’t care to do that. No – but if you downright had to would you?  The people who have to – no arrogance involved on their part – the ones who really need.  Those folks I take a great deal of pride and pleasure in leading them to help.

If I had to ask, I would.  I wouldn’t use a word like "deserve".  Nor would I think that a shelter and a hot meal were less than I was "owed".  If I were pointed to an honest way of making money I’d feel grateful to those who contributed to that organization.  I would hope that it was voluntary contri butions.  I have no problem with liberals contributing all of *their* income they want } I have a million stories I could tell ya of different types of people looking for help.  My job is to help them find it and not judge them and for the most part I try to do that.  Some days it hard.

I know some good but bitter folks at the local state agencies who complain that the help available to those who *need* it, is so little because such a big portion goes to those who don’t, but who "fit the formula". SpiritQuest soup kitchen server but it’s voluntary

Response:

You believe  that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack

Very thought-provoking, Jack. The part I pasted above is the only one I thoroughly disagree with. That’s why I pasted it here. I think the problem that causes all of this vitriolic right/left conservative/liberal clap-trap runs deeper. What do you believe the deeper problem is?            Colin

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You believe  that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack Very thought-provoking, Jack. The part I pasted above is the only one I thoroughly disagree with. That’s why I pasted it here. I think the problem that causes all of this vitriolic right/left conservative/liberal clap-trap runs deeper. What do you believe the deeper problem is?           Colin

You’re saying that you embrace the liberal sentiment on all the other issues? And you ask what the problem is? Jack

Response:

Colin!!!  LTNS!!! welcome back! azure – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You believe  that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack Very thought-provoking, Jack. The part I pasted above is the only one I thoroughly disagree with. That’s why I pasted it here. I think the problem that causes all of this vitriolic right/left conservative/liberal clap-trap runs deeper. What do you believe the deeper problem is?            Colin

Response:

What’s your point Bro ? sumbuddie wants duex know And you believe that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

What’s your point Bro ? sumbuddie wants duex know

Take the test, Alan. Bet you fail every item. BroJack

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You believe  that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack Very thought-provoking, Jack. The part I pasted above is the only one I thoroughly disagree with. That’s why I pasted it here. I think the problem that causes all of this vitriolic right/left conservative/liberal clap-trap runs deeper. What do you believe the deeper problem is?            Colin

Heya Colin, and welcome back.  Missed seein ya } And, I can’t pass up (aw, hell, I *can*, but I love em) a good exchange on "society".  :)} I’ll lay the "blame" for the differences on families.  When Joe and Ralph are teenagers and want something, and one dad digs into his pocket, while the other responds with "I had a paper-delivery job when I was your age", I think that’s a clear sign of the differences we grow up with.  I think it’s spread  all through our childhood, since Dad’s attitude toward "if you want it" probably isn’t a sudden thing. I remember working in crop fields at 11 or 12, and doing the "small stuff", changing oil, changing tires at a local garage at around 14.  That’s not "my hardship life".  Heck, I had *money*.  :)} Now, if I just *bought* my first .22 rifle, and the fellow next to me was complaining that he wished he had one, but his dad just *refused* to get him one, we have a conservative and liberal sitting side-by-side. And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide. I remember a short local newsclip where a father was at home, unemployed, drawing some kind of benefits, saying into the news camera "Yes, I opened the fire hydrant.  My kids have nothing to do.  *They* haven’t put a place in the neighborhood where kids can play". That man’s a liberal, in my mind. A conservative thinks of card games, and dominoes, and making things out of whatever is available because they are *his* kids.  It’s not a matter of "Hey, society, here’s the kid we had". And, we grow up with "they", this unidentiable entity that’s supposed to move in and be a good Dad to us, if we follow the liberal line of thinking (Hey, canya tell I’m a conservative). That’s more than wordy enough as a start } Again, hi, and welcome back } SpiritQuest liberal the amount of bacon grease it takes to fry *good* eggs

Response:

You believe the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding.  You believe that the same teacher who can’t teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.  You believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat, than US nuclear weapons technology, in the hands of Chinese communists.  You believe that there was no art before Federal funding.  You believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the earth’s climate, and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs.  You believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.  You are against capital punishment but support abortion on demand.  You believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.  You believe that hunters don’t care about nature, but loony activists who’ve never been outside of a city do.  You believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.  You believe the military, not corrupt politicians, start wars.  You believe the NRA is bad, because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.  You believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.  You believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides aren’t.  You believe Hillary Clinton is really a lady.  You believe that the only reason socialism hasn’t worked anywhere it’s been tried, is because the right people haven’t been in charge.  You believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and sex offender belongs in the White House.  You believe that homosexual parades displaying drag, transvestites and bestiality should be constitutionally protected and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.  You believe that illegal Democratic Party funding by the Chinese is somehow in the best interest of the United States.  And you believe that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack

Response:

Question:

    (Snip) We all know, from previous correspondence, that you are not interested in the present situation, aand have nothing new to contribute. Please go away. — Peter Skelton

I counted 22 postings from that one individual on the same topic today, reflecting his intention of resurrecting the details of an unfortunate event.  There are those who, in the name of the First Amendment, go on endlessly about any of our national warts or pimples.  These self-same pontificators and blowhards have, without the slightest  only thing they think they’re good at is telling us how much better they would have done it if they had been theredoubt on my part, ever lifted a finger or even thought about lifting a finger in defense of this country, particularly if that might have vaguely involved putting their own asses on the line to accomplish that end.

Response:

   (Snip) We all know, from previous correspondence, that you are not interested in the present situation, aand have nothing new to contribute. Please go away. — Peter Skelton

Bravo. Peter.  This character has 22 postings on this subject on my monitor as we speak.  He obviously wishes to engage someone in an ongoing debate about a long past unfortunate event which will give him the opportunity to criticize our national warts and pimples. AFAIAC, a silent response is all he richly deserves and will get from me. — Hal Hanig Air Rescue Service "That Others May Live"

Response:

My apologies.  My machine hiccupped while I was in the process of making some changes in this message, and it inadvertently and unintentionally was posted.

    (Snip) We all know, from previous correspondence, that you are not interested in the present situation, aand have nothing new to contribute. Please go away. — Peter Skelton

I counted 22 postings from that one individual on the same topic today, reflecting his intention of resurrecting the details of an unfortunate event.  There are those who, in the name of the First Amendment, go on endlessly about any of our national warts or pimples.  These self-same pontificators and blowhards have, without the slightest  only thing they think they’re good at is telling us how much better they would have done it if they had been theredoubt on my part, ever lifted a finger or even thought about lifting a finger in defense of this country, particularly if that might have vaguely involved putting their own asses on the line to accomplish that end.

Response:

Copyright 1992 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc

Well now that it’s now longer covered up, you going to find a new cause to promote? After all, what’s the point of continuing if American news are now stating ‘the truth’ as you so desperately wanted them to do. Let this end so all can find peace…even the Iranian students no longer do the ‘death to America’ chants. Kelly

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Copyright 1992 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc                                    ABC NEWS Look idiot – you’ve visited many times in the past. Herewith a summary in the probably vain hopes of  avoiding several interminable threads that will completely lack new information content. 1) The ship in question was badly prepared, & badly captained. Its was the aggressor on the day in question, made a series of blunders, lied to its superiors, and woulnd up killing many innocents.

But this doesn’t answer the real question: what was the Vincennes doing there? What was the source of the report about a non-existent tanker being attacked? What was the role of the USN in supporting IRaq conduct a war of aggression against a neighbor? Yes, there was a cover-up – but WHY? What was being covered up: Roger’s incompetence, or something more? Remember IRaq-gate? The BNL scandal? All that was quitely swept under the rug after Clinton’s election, though not-yet-VP Gore compared it to Watergate. 2) Iranian behaviour in the conflict up to that time was imperfect.

But was no justification or excuse for the actions of the VIncennes that day. Iran’s behaviour was a "imperfect" or less than that of the US in arming and supporting Saddam. 3) The US tried a cover-up.

The question is why and what was being covered up? 4) The US has long since paid restitution. This payment was delayed by the Iranian government’s desire to accept the money on behalf of the families, rather than allowing direct payment.

The payment of restitution was specifically made "ex gratia" meaning without accepting liability, and even then it does not affect the criminal liability of the people involved. 5) No court procedings have been taken or are contemplated against any government or person. This is not uncommon in cases settled out of

court. Actually, there is a case pending in the Hague. The US Supreme Court dismissed a suit by the relatives on the grounds that this happened durong "war time" so there is no tortious liability – however at least one US Court openly stated that the US was involved in aiding and abetting IRaq by providing cover to Kuwait, which was busy acting as a co-belligerent by providing material assistance to IRaq. 6) There are Americans who believe any of:    - The VIncennes was completely justified    - Iranians were the aggressors on the day    - some previous insult makes the slaughter OK    - the highest duty of servicemen is to come home alive            (called cowards in this country) 7) There are Iranians caught in a 1992 time warp.

Are the Jews caught in a 1945 timewarp? Are the Pan Am 103 people caught in a 1993 timewarp? Why is it that the passage of time supposedly negates the facts? The US and Iran are natural allies, it is important to both countries to put the past behind them.

Regardless of the relations of the US to IRan, the fact remains that the USN lied to Congress about the massacre of 290 people, and blatantly violated the US Constitution, among other things. There is no statute of limitations on that sort of behavior. We all know, from previous correspondence, that you are not interested in the present situation, aand have nothing new to contribute. Please go

away. Truth hurts – as long as the official US position continues to be that the Vincennes was in international waters, acting in self-defense, and that the IRanians are at fault for "aiming" the airbus at the vincennes, and as long as the fact of the events on JUly 3 1988 are still hidden and dismissed and lied about, then I don’t see why I should just go away. Before you buy.

Response:

290 people are killed by a USN which lied to congress and claims TO THIS DAY that the VIncennes was in international waters, that it was acting in self-defense, that it was all the fault of the Iranians for "sending" the airbus over the Vincennes, – and I’m the bad guy? I don’t know about you, but here IN AMERICA we hold our politicians and representatives ACCOUNTABLE – usually. Its called a democracy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – =20    (Snip) We all know, from previous correspondence, that you are not interested = in the present situation, aand have nothing new to contribute. Please go = away. — Peter Skelton Bravo. Peter.  This character has 22 postings on this subject on my = monitor as we speak.  He obviously wishes to engage someone in an = ongoing debate about a long past unfortunate event which will give him = the opportunity to criticize our national warts and pimples. AFAIAC, a = silent response is all he richly deserves and will get from me. –=20 Hal Hanig Air Rescue Service "That Others May Live"

Before you buy.

Response:

Loon alert. Not in any way associated with the heatwave in that area, of course…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Copyright 1992 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc                                    ABC NEWS                                SHOW: NIGHTLINE                                  July 1, 1992 HEADLINE: The "USS Vincennes": Public War, Secret War BODY: TED KOPPEL: [voice-over] Four years ago this week, a tragedy in the Persian Gulf, the shooting down of an Iranian Airbus by the USS Vincennes. The lives of 290 civilians lost, and the inevitable question: how could this have happened? There was the "official" story. Vice Pres. GEORGE BUSH: [July 14, 1988] One thing is clear, and that is that the USS Vincennes acted in self-defense. KOPPEL: [voice- over] An official story of the American warship as victim, at the right place at the right time, minding its own business. RICHARD WILLIAMSON, Assistant Secretary of State: [July 13, 1988] The ship was, at the time of the incident, in international waters. KOPPEL: [voice-over] It was official and untrue. Tonight, the real story of what happened and why, on July 3rd, 1988, and why the U.S. government tried to cover it up. Tonight, the USS Vincennes: Public War, Secret War. ANNOUNCER: This is an ABC News Nightline/Newsweek magazine special investigation. Reporting from Washington, Ted Koppel. KOPPEL: Governments lie; they do it all the time. And, much as we’d like to believe otherwise, the U.S. government is no exception. There were times when we may have believed otherwise, but after Vietnam and Watergate, we know better. Still, unlike most countries in the world, when our government lies to us, there tend to be consequences, congressional hearings, special prosecutors, investigative reports. And, unlike most countries in the world in which there’s no real expectation that the truth will out, Americans really do believe that sooner or later, however painful the truth may be, those who know it will ultimately tell it. Before this program is over tonight, we will have told you what we’ve uncovered over the past few months, working with Newsweek magazine, about this country’s war against Iran. It wasn’t a full- scale war. It was certainly never a declared war. But the United States did so much to ensure that Iraq would not lose its war against Iran that the Reagan and Bush administrations became allies to Saddam Hussein, and when a U.S. ship accidentally shot down an Iranian passenger plane, the U.S. government covered up the truth, to prevent that alliance from becoming fully known. It was another July 4th weekend, four years ago, almost to the day, that an American warship, the USS Vincennes, shot down an unarmed civilian airliner over the Persian Gulf. It was a terrible accident, indisputably a case of mistaken identity. Granted, there was no love lost between the United States and Iran, but the U.S. Navy does not deliberately target a civilian Airbus. There were 290 men, women and children who died on that plane.  [voice- over] And the videotape of bodies floating amid the wreckage was a horrifying reminder of how easily the United States could become involved in the bloody war that continued to rage between Iran and Iraq. On the record, the United States was trying to remain neutral, although clear warnings had gone out that the U.S. would not stand idly by while Iranian gunboats harassed international shipping. Nor would the U.S. Navy permit mines to be planted in international waters. [on camera] On that hazy Sunday morning of July 3rd, in fact, the Aegis cruiser Vincennes and the frigate Montgomery were on patrol in the Gulf, when a helicopter from the Vincennes came under fire from Iranian gunboats while on a reconnaissance mission. We have reconstructed what happened next from audio and video tapes, recorded aboard those two U.S. Navy ships, and from the first TV interview granted by the captain of the USS Vincennes since the incident. LOUDSPEAKER: General quarters, general quarters, all hands man your battle stations. SEAMAN: One at 350’s inbound, it’s coming inbound fast. Capt. WILL ROGERS (Ret.), "USS Vincennes": The small craft turned in our direction. SEAMAN: I’ve got a visual on the bow camera [unintelligible]. Capt. ROGERS: As they turned and began to maneuver and close us fairly high speed and on erratic courses, we asked permission to fire a warning shot. The bridge reported that they were firing at us, and indicated that we were taking this small craft under fire. We were maneuvering rapidly because, first place, my desire was to keep them at arm’s length, if you will. We were engaging, it essentially was barrage fire. We were shifting targets as rapidly as we could, and Montgomery at the same time was directed to engage the small craft, which they did. Lt. GEORGE EMERSON, "USS Montgomery" Gunnery Officer: We fired at this contact, 10 rounds, got an explosion that covered or obscured the target with smoke, and the target seemed to disappear. It’s very difficult, when you’ve never been in a combat situation, to know what has actually transpired, until maybe just a few seconds after the event has transpired. Capt. ROGERS: Several minutes into this, we were notified that we have an aircraft departure from Bandar Abbas. Did not really become of tactical concern till it was around 47 miles away, primarily because aircraft flew in the Gulf. It was pointed out at this point that the aircraft was essentially inbound on what looked to be a closed constant bearing decreasing range, and we were monitoring it. SEAMAN: Still inbound. Capt. ROGERS: The aircraft was warned, warned a number of times, continued to close. Time is a demon here. If I have a long time to sort things out, you’re going to take more time to look at this and more time to look at that, but when you don’t have time, you basically take what you have, and you’re- at some point in time, you have to make the decision. I was having- I had difficulty at 20 miles. I just did not want to shoot. I could not believe that this was really happening to us. So I held my fire. When the aircraft reached a little over 10 miles, at that point in time I either make the decision then, or I don’t make it at all, because I reach minimum weapons range. And the decision was made at that, and it intercepted and killed the aircraft. 1st SEAMAN: Oh, dead. We hit it. We have got it, that was a dead on. 2nd SEAMAN: Relax, relax, keep the noise down. Knock it off! Capt. ROGERS: I thought it was a tactical aircraft. Did I think it was absolutely an F-14, or an F-4, or a Fokker D-27, I don’t know. I thought it was a tactical aircraft engaged in support of the ongoing surface action. That’s what I thought, otherwise I would have certainly never released two standard missiles at it. Lt. EMERSON: It seemed, to most people, that for the amount of wreckage that was seen falling, it probably wasn’t an F-14, although no one could be sure. And that happened maybe 20 minutes later, by the time we collected the information and said, "Well, it might not have been an F- 14." KOPPEL: [voice-over] Within a matter of hours, it became clear that the aircraft downed by the Vincennes was not a warplane, but a commercial airliner with what later turned out to be 290 civilians on board. Capt.  ROGERS: The decision, I’m- I think probably was proper. Unfortunately, innocent people’s lives were lost, and I think that is something that I will live with the rest of my life. It’s something that I regret. But my overall and overriding responsibility at the time was to my ship and my crew, and I think I executed that as I had been sworn to do. KOPPEL: [voice-over] That same Sunday, July 3rd, Admiral William Crowe, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, met with reporters at the Pentagon to brief them on the incident. First reports, as Admiral Crowe would later note, are almost always wrong. Adm.  WILLIAM CROWE, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff: [July 3, 1988] The suspect aircraft was outside the prescribed commercial air corridor. KOPPEL: [voice-over] That was wrong. The aircraft was flying well within the commercial air corridor. Adm. CROWE: More importantly, the aircraft headed directly for Vincennes, on a constant bearing, at high speed, approximately 450 knots. KOPPEL: At the time it was shot down, the Iranian aircraft was actually turning slowly away from the Vincennes. Its top speed, a relatively minor point, was 385 knots. Adm. CROWE: There were electronic indications on Vincennes that led it to believe that the aircraft was an F-14. KOPPEL: [voice-over] The only electronic emission from the plane was its correct transponder signal, identifying it as a commercial aircraft. Adm. CROWE: Decreasing in altitude as it neared the ship. KOPPEL: That, too, was wrong. The aircraft had been steadily climbing from liftoff and was still gaining altitude at the time of missile impact. We know all these things now because the information was later retrieved through a detailed analysis of a tape made by the USS Vincennes’ own Aegis radar tracking system. And indeed, over the days and weeks to come, corrections would be made. But two critical issues were never addressed in public, not truthfully, at least. Where, precisely, was the Vincennes at the time of the shootdown, and what was she doing there? The official response to those two questions has been a tissue of lies, fabrications, half-truths and omissions. When we come back, the story you didn’t hear four years ago. [Commercial break] KOPPEL: In July of 1988, the country was, as it is now, in the middle of a presidential campaign. Whatever the public’s feelings toward

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Response:

Copyright 1992 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc                                    ABC NEWS

Look idiot – you’ve visited many times in the past. Herewith a summary in the probably vain hopes of  avoiding several interminable threads that will completely lack new information content. 1) The ship in question was badly prepared, & badly captained. Its was the aggressor on the day in question, made a series of blunders, lied to its superiors, and woulnd up killing many innocents. 2) Iranian behaviour in the conflict up to that time was imperfect. 3) The US tried a cover-up. 4) The US has long since paid restitution. This payment was delayed by the Iranian government’s desire to accept the money on behalf of the families, rather than allowing direct payment. 5) No court procedings have been taken or are contemplated against any government or person. This is not uncommon in cases settled out of court. 6) There are Americans who believe any of:         – The VIncennes was completely justified         – Iranians were the aggressors on the day         – some previous insult makes the slaughter OK         – the highest duty of servicemen is to come home alive                 (called cowards in this country) 7) There are Iranians caught in a 1992 time warp. The US and Iran are natural allies, it is important to both countries to put the past behind them. We all know, from previous correspondence, that you are not interested in the present situation, aand have nothing new to contribute. Please go away. — Peter Skelton

Response:

Sorry, love to piss off asshole redneck jerkoff trailer trash like you who use terms like "towel heads"  too much to go away . . . Have a look, this is the rec.aviation.piloting Newsgroup, NOT the "110KB moaning Towelhead"  NG Go find another Forum for your bellyaching !

Before you buy.

Response:

2 things that I am wondering about here. 1. What is this post doing in this group?  It obviously has nothing to do with piloting an aircraft and is therefore way off topic.

REally? What was shot down, a bathtub? 2. Why is anyone bothering to get into an arguement with a cross posting troll?  He is here jsut to get a rise out of everyone.  Sure,

The post is entirely on-topic and relevant. If you don’t like the content, don’t read it. I don’t meet the definition of a troll. Can we get back to talkin about somehting we can do…  Flying?

And flying while not getting shot down. Remember, the Capt of the Airbus was American trained and educated, his sister in law lives in Texas, and he was minding his own business doing what pilots do . . . flying. Jason

Before you buy.

Response:

Kindly provide a link or other source re: the official position of the US which as you claim, has changed. I have mine and have posted them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Copyright 1992 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc                                    ABC NEWS Look idiot – you’ve visited many times in the past. Herewith a summary in the probably vain hopes of  avoiding several interminable threads that will completely lack new information content. <repetitious drivel snipped We all know, from previous correspondence, that you are not interested in the present situation, aand have nothing new to contribute. Please go away. Truth hurts – as long as the official US position continues to be that the Vincennes was in international waters, acting in self-defense, and that the IRanians are at fault for "aiming" the airbus at the vincennes, and as long as the fact of the events on JUly 3 1988 are still hidden and dismissed and lied about, then I don’t see why I should just go away. Go away becasue you have nothing new to add and because you are not telling the truth. You statement has not matched the official US position for years now. — Peter Skelton

Before you buy.

Response:

So I am not telling the truth about the official US position? Fine. I dare you to prove me wrong. I double-dare ya! I have repeatedly posted the resulted of the official investigation by Fogarty, as well as the Press Guidance issued on occasion of the US restitution payments which SPECIFICALLY stated that 1- the vincenes was in interational waters, 2- it was acting in self-defense, and 3- the incident was the fault of the Iranians for aiming the Airbus at the vincennes. Now, lets see YOU come up with similiar OFFICIAL SOURCES which acknowledge that all of these were wrong. Go ahead – just post it and let everyone see for themselves. Remember, OFFICIAL SOURCES. Not what some newspaper quoted some source. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Copyright 1992 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc                                    ABC NEWS Look idiot – you’ve visited many times in the past. Herewith a summary in the probably vain hopes of  avoiding several interminable threads that will completely lack new information content. <repetitious drivel snipped We all know, from previous correspondence, that you are not interested in the present situation, aand have nothing new to contribute. Please go away. Truth hurts – as long as the official US position continues to be that the Vincennes was in international waters, acting in self-defense, and that the IRanians are at fault for "aiming" the airbus at the vincennes, and as long as the fact of the events on JUly 3 1988 are still hidden and dismissed and lied about, then I don’t see why I should just go away. Go away becasue you have nothing new to add and because you are not telling the truth. You statement has not matched the official US position for years now. — Peter Skelton

Before you buy.

Response:

Have a look, this is the rec.aviation.piloting Newsgroup, NOT the "110KB moaning Towelhead"  NG Go find another Forum for your bellyaching !

Response:

Regarding the official US position on the Vincennes shootdown: actually, in 1992 Admiral Crowe–chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time of the shootdown–admitted that the Vincennes was in Iranian territorial waters.  Furthermore, official US Navy information was provided to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) in 1988 which placed the Vincennes in Iranian territorial waters on its maps.  The ICAO report was made public in December 1988, and clearly cites the US Navy as the source of the ship’s geolocation. http://fas.org/news/iran/1992/920722-236124.htm As for who was the "aggressor" and whether the Vincennes was acting in "self-defense," those questions are–and will always remain–matters of perception and interpretation.  There’s obviously no convincing you, but if you’re as objective as you claim to be in your quest for the truth than I encourage you to read the above-cited source in full. And incidentally, providing funds to Iraq does not make Kuwait a "co-belligerent" in the Iran-Iraq War.  If that’s your definition of a belligerent–providing financial support–then the Iran-Iraq War was truly a global conflict involving the likes of the Soviet Union, China, France, Syria, much of Europe and the entire Gulf as well as the US. B_o_B Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

We should have done everybody a favor while we were down bombing Iraq, and nuked both your countries. The world would be a lot better off without your two countries full of insane fanatics. Nobody cares about you, or what you have to say. Go post elsewhere. Wanker.

A terrible post that just negates any valid argument you might have had. The two countries are not full of fanatics. The vast majority of Iranians and Iraqis are decent honest and *very* civilised. Unfortunately for them [and arguably us] they have less than perfect governments. — Mac.

Response:

     What a particularly sad little individual you are.  Do you know anything about Iranians, their country, or their culture? If you did perhaps you’d appreciate that these are some of the most hospitable people on the planet, unfortunately victim to a bastardisation of a very noble religion.But I guess that would involve using your head and employing a little intelligence. . too much to hope for I guess. To quote a British officer report :- "I would not breed from this man"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We should have done everybody a favor while we were down bombing Iraq, and nuked both your countries. The world would be a lot better off without your two countries full of insane fanatics. Nobody cares about you, or what you have to say. Go post elsewhere. Wanker.

Response:

Well among other reasons: 1- this event involved a criminal conspiracy and a blatant violation of the US Constitution and the USN lying to Congress – that is some pretty significant stuff

OK, I’ll bite.  What criminal conspiracy?  What violation of what section of the Constitution? 2- the broader history of the US’s role in backing and arming Saddam Hussien should not be conveniently forgotten

We’ve been backing and arming Saddam?  Cite your sources please. 3- the US media only reported on this factually after 4 years had passed and the USN could not maintain the coverup – up till then the media was pathetically parroting the official line like some sort of Soviet paper

Hmmm, I’ve never really known even the conservative elements of the US media to cater to the official line. 4- The official position of the US government is STILL that the Vincennes was acting in self-defense, that it was in international waters, and that it was all the fault of the IRanians for "aiming" the Airbus at the VIncennes

It was in international waters.  It was in self-defense.  It was a horrible mistake.  The Iranians share a lot of blame for sending the Airbus anywhere near the Vincennes given the situation at the time. 5- Ignorance about the true events continues – and those who don’t study the past are bound to repeat the same mistakes

Ah, and your crystal ball gives you all the accurate information of what really happened? 6- it offends me that people are willing to allow their opinions to be so easily manipulated and to substitute "patriotism" for thinking – that is in violation of the most basic premise of a democracy in which officials are supposed to be held accountable to and by the people

Well, if you’re going to hold all our politicians accountable for every infraction, no matter how minor or severe, then you’re going to be busy for quite a while aren’t you? 7- note that no one is telling the relatives of Pan Am 103 to just suck it up – where is the trial for Rogers? Or are the lives of Iranian women and children so much cheaper?

Nobody is saying those lives lost are cheap.  What about the lives lost on the Starks and Roberts?  Who’s accounting for them? I could go on and on . . . and will.

Oh, I’m sure you will.  And you’ll probably get even more ludicrous as "May you always have fair winds and following seas.." Holloway

Response:

Copyright 1992 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc                                    ABC NEWS Look idiot – you’ve visited many times in the past. Herewith a summary in the probably vain hopes of  avoiding several interminable threads that will completely lack new information content.

<repetitious drivel snipped We all know, from previous correspondence, that you are not interested in the present situation, aand have nothing new to contribute. Please go away. Truth hurts – as long as the official US position continues to be that the Vincennes was in international waters, acting in self-defense, and that the IRanians are at fault for "aiming" the airbus at the vincennes, and as long as the fact of the events on JUly 3 1988 are still hidden and dismissed and lied about, then I don’t see why I should just go away.

Go away becasue you have nothing new to add and because you are not telling the truth. You statement has not matched the official US position for years now. — Peter Skelton

Response:

Duck!   2 cents incoming This is the wrong newsgroup for you to be posting your drivel.  Why don’t you pester the political and nutcase newsgroups and leave us to discussions on piloting?   If you aren’t capable of using good judgement on where and how to post your "thoughts", then perhaps you should seek some professional help. Hugs

Response:

We all know, from previous correspondence, that you are not interested in the present situation, aand have nothing new to contribute. Please go away.

aw…. come on…. if it weren’t this it would be battleships again….. Cheers, dba

Response:

2 things that I am wondering about here. 1. What is this post doing in this group?  It obviously has nothing to do with piloting an aircraft and is therefore way off topic. 2. Why is anyone bothering to get into an arguement with a cross posting troll?  He is here jsut to get a rise out of everyone.  Sure, something bad happened and people screwed up.  If you want something done about it, go get a lawyer and try to get a case brought up on it.  (I’m not a lawyer nor do I have any clue on that.  It just sounded good.) Can we get back to talkin about somehting we can do…  Flying? Jason

Response:

We should have done everybody a favor while we were down bombing Iraq, and nuked both your countries. The world would be a lot better off without your two countries full of insane fanatics. Nobody cares about you, or what you have to say. Go post elsewhere. Wanker.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well among other reasons: 1- this event involved a criminal conspiracy and a blatant violation of the US Constitution and the USN lying to Congress – that is some pretty significant stuff 2- the broader history of the US’s role in backing and arming Saddam Hussien should not be conveniently forgotten 3- the US media only reported on this factually after 4 years had passed and the USN could not maintain the coverup – up till then the media was pathetically parroting the official line like some sort of Soviet paper 4- The official position of the US government is STILL that the Vincennes was acting in self-defense, that it was in international waters, and that it was all the fault of the IRanians for "aiming" the Airbus at the VIncennes 5- Ignorance about the true events continues – and those who don’t study the past are bound to repeat the same mistakes 6- it offends me that people are willing to allow their opinions to be so easily manipulated and to substitute "patriotism" for thinking – that is in violation of the most basic premise of a democracy in which officials are supposed to be held accountable to and by the people 7- note that no one is telling the relatives of Pan Am 103 to just suck it up – where is the trial for Rogers? Or are the lives of Iranian women and children so much cheaper? I could go on and on . . . and will. Copyright 1992 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc Well now that it’s now longer covered up, you going to find a new cause to promote? After all, what’s the point of continuing if American news are now stating ‘the truth’ as you so desperately wanted them to do. Let this end so all can find peace…even the Iranian students no longer do the ‘death to America’ chants. Kelly Before you buy.

Response:

Well among other reasons: 1- this event involved a criminal conspiracy and a blatant violation of the US Constitution and the USN lying to Congress – that is some pretty significant stuff 2- the broader history of the US’s role in backing and arming Saddam Hussien should not be conveniently forgotten 3- the US media only reported on this factually after 4 years had passed and the USN could not maintain the coverup – up till then the media was pathetically parroting the official line like some sort of Soviet paper 4- The official position of the US government is STILL that the Vincennes was acting in self-defense, that it was in international waters, and that it was all the fault of the IRanians for "aiming" the Airbus at the VIncennes 5- Ignorance about the true events continues – and those who don’t study the past are bound to repeat the same mistakes 6- it offends me that people are willing to allow their opinions to be so easily manipulated and to substitute "patriotism" for thinking – that is in violation of the most basic premise of a democracy in which officials are supposed to be held accountable to and by the people 7- note that no one is telling the relatives of Pan Am 103 to just suck it up – where is the trial for Rogers? Or are the lives of Iranian women and children so much cheaper? I could go on and on . . . and will.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Copyright 1992 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc Well now that it’s now longer covered up, you going to find a new cause to promote? After all, what’s the point of continuing if American news are now stating ‘the truth’ as you so desperately wanted them to do. Let this end so all can find peace…even the Iranian students no longer do the ‘death to America’ chants. Kelly

Before you buy.

Response:

Loon alert. Not in any way associated with the heatwave in that area, of

So you repost the whole article just to add your one line? Who’s the loon? — Mac.

Response:

Copyright 1992 American Broadcasting Companies, Inc                                     ABC NEWS                                 SHOW: NIGHTLINE                                   July 1, 1992 HEADLINE: The "USS Vincennes": Public War, Secret War BODY: TED KOPPEL: [voice-over] Four years ago this week, a tragedy in the Persian Gulf, the shooting down of an Iranian Airbus by the USS Vincennes. The lives of 290 civilians lost, and the inevitable question: how could this have happened? There was the "official" story. Vice Pres. GEORGE BUSH: [July 14, 1988] One thing is clear, and that is that the USS Vincennes acted in self-defense. KOPPEL: [voice- over] An official story of the American warship as victim, at the right place at the right time, minding its own business. RICHARD WILLIAMSON, Assistant Secretary of State: [July 13, 1988] The ship was, at the time of the incident, in international waters. KOPPEL: [voice-over] It was official and untrue. Tonight, the real story of what happened and why, on July 3rd, 1988, and why the U.S. government tried to cover it up. Tonight, the USS Vincennes: Public War, Secret War. ANNOUNCER: This is an ABC News Nightline/Newsweek magazine special investigation. Reporting from Washington, Ted Koppel. KOPPEL: Governments lie; they do it all the time. And, much as we’d like to believe otherwise, the U.S. government is no exception. There were times when we may have believed otherwise, but after Vietnam and Watergate, we know better. Still, unlike most countries in the world, when our government lies to us, there tend to be consequences, congressional hearings, special prosecutors, investigative reports. And, unlike most countries in the world in which there’s no real expectation that the truth will out, Americans really do believe that sooner or later, however painful the truth may be, those who know it will ultimately tell it. Before this program is over tonight, we will have told you what we’ve uncovered over the past few months, working with Newsweek magazine, about this country’s war against Iran. It wasn’t a full- scale war. It was certainly never a declared war. But the United States did so much to ensure that Iraq would not lose its war against Iran that the Reagan and Bush administrations became allies to Saddam Hussein, and when a U.S. ship accidentally shot down an Iranian passenger plane, the U.S. government covered up the truth, to prevent that alliance from becoming fully known. It was another July 4th weekend, four years ago, almost to the day, that an American warship, the USS Vincennes, shot down an unarmed civilian airliner over the Persian Gulf. It was a terrible accident, indisputably a case of mistaken identity. Granted, there was no love lost between the United States and Iran, but the U.S. Navy does not deliberately target a civilian Airbus. There were 290 men, women and children who died on that plane.  [voice- over] And the videotape of bodies floating amid the wreckage was a horrifying reminder of how easily the United States could become involved in the bloody war that continued to rage between Iran and Iraq. On the record, the United States was trying to remain neutral, although clear warnings had gone out that the U.S. would not stand idly by while Iranian gunboats harassed international shipping. Nor would the U.S. Navy permit mines to be planted in international waters. [on camera] On that hazy Sunday morning of July 3rd, in fact, the Aegis cruiser Vincennes and the frigate Montgomery were on patrol in the Gulf, when a helicopter from the Vincennes came under fire from Iranian gunboats while on a reconnaissance mission. We have reconstructed what happened next from audio and video tapes, recorded aboard those two U.S. Navy ships, and from the first TV interview granted by the captain of the USS Vincennes since the incident. LOUDSPEAKER: General quarters, general quarters, all hands man your battle stations. SEAMAN: One at 350’s inbound, it’s coming inbound fast. Capt. WILL ROGERS (Ret.), "USS Vincennes": The small craft turned in our direction. SEAMAN: I’ve got a visual on the bow camera [unintelligible]. Capt. ROGERS: As they turned and began to maneuver and close us fairly high speed and on erratic courses, we asked permission to fire a warning shot. The bridge reported that they were firing at us, and indicated that we were taking this small craft under fire. We were maneuvering rapidly because, first place, my desire was to keep them at arm’s length, if you will. We were engaging, it essentially was barrage fire. We were shifting targets as rapidly as we could, and Montgomery at the same time was directed to engage the small craft, which they did. Lt. GEORGE EMERSON, "USS Montgomery" Gunnery Officer: We fired at this contact, 10 rounds, got an explosion that covered or obscured the target with smoke, and the target seemed to disappear. It’s very difficult, when you’ve never been in a combat situation, to know what has actually transpired, until maybe just a few seconds after the event has transpired. Capt. ROGERS: Several minutes into this, we were notified that we have an aircraft departure from Bandar Abbas. Did not really become of tactical concern till it was around 47 miles away, primarily because aircraft flew in the Gulf. It was pointed out at this point that the aircraft was essentially inbound on what looked to be a closed constant bearing decreasing range, and we were monitoring it. SEAMAN: Still inbound. Capt. ROGERS: The aircraft was warned, warned a number of times, continued to close. Time is a demon here. If I have a long time to sort things out, you’re going to take more time to look at this and more time to look at that, but when you don’t have time, you basically take what you have, and you’re- at some point in time, you have to make the decision. I was having- I had difficulty at 20 miles. I just did not want to shoot. I could not believe that this was really happening to us. So I held my fire. When the aircraft reached a little over 10 miles, at that point in time I either make the decision then, or I don’t make it at all, because I reach minimum weapons range. And the decision was made at that, and it intercepted and killed the aircraft. 1st SEAMAN: Oh, dead. We hit it. We have got it, that was a dead on. 2nd SEAMAN: Relax, relax, keep the noise down. Knock it off! Capt. ROGERS: I thought it was a tactical aircraft. Did I think it was absolutely an F-14, or an F-4, or a Fokker D-27, I don’t know. I thought it was a tactical aircraft engaged in support of the ongoing surface action. That’s what I thought, otherwise I would have certainly never released two standard missiles at it. Lt. EMERSON: It seemed, to most people, that for the amount of wreckage that was seen falling, it probably wasn’t an F-14, although no one could be sure. And that happened maybe 20 minutes later, by the time we collected the information and said, "Well, it might not have been an F- 14." KOPPEL: [voice-over] Within a matter of hours, it became clear that the aircraft downed by the Vincennes was not a warplane, but a commercial airliner with what later turned out to be 290 civilians on board. Capt.  ROGERS: The decision, I’m- I think probably was proper. Unfortunately, innocent people’s lives were lost, and I think that is something that I will live with the rest of my life. It’s something that I regret. But my overall and overriding responsibility at the time was to my ship and my crew, and I think I executed that as I had been sworn to do. KOPPEL: [voice-over] That same Sunday, July 3rd, Admiral William Crowe, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, met with reporters at the Pentagon to brief them on the incident. First reports, as Admiral Crowe would later note, are almost always wrong. Adm.  WILLIAM CROWE, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff: [July 3, 1988] The suspect aircraft was outside the prescribed commercial air corridor. KOPPEL: [voice-over] That was wrong. The aircraft was flying well within the commercial air corridor. Adm. CROWE: More importantly, the aircraft headed directly for Vincennes, on a constant bearing, at high speed, approximately 450 knots. KOPPEL: At the time it was shot down, the Iranian aircraft was actually turning slowly away from the Vincennes. Its top speed, a relatively minor point, was 385 knots. Adm. CROWE: There were electronic indications on Vincennes that led it to believe that the aircraft was an F-14. KOPPEL: [voice-over] The only electronic emission from the plane was its correct transponder signal, identifying it as a commercial aircraft. Adm. CROWE: Decreasing in altitude as it neared the ship. KOPPEL: That, too, was wrong. The aircraft had been steadily climbing from liftoff and was still gaining altitude at the time of missile impact. We know all these things now because the information was later retrieved through a detailed analysis of a tape made by the USS Vincennes’ own Aegis radar tracking system. And indeed, over the days and weeks to come, corrections would be made. But two critical issues were never addressed in public, not truthfully, at least. Where, precisely, was the Vincennes at the time of the shootdown, and what was she doing there? The official response to those two questions has been a tissue of lies, fabrications, half-truths and omissions. When we come back, the story you didn’t hear four years ago. [Commercial break] KOPPEL: In July of 1988, the country was, as it is now, in the middle of a presidential campaign. Whatever the public’s feelings toward Iran might have been, the shooting down of a civilian airliner, the deaths of 290 civilians, were both a tragedy and potentially a political embarrassment. Two points had to be made. The captain of the Vincennes was not to blame. It was the fault of the Iranians. That message was carried to the United Nations 11 days after the incident by then-Vice President Bush. Vice Pres. GEORGE BUSH: [July 14, … read more »

Response:

Question:

What is the Midwest Express incident you mentioned?  Can anyone provide some information on this accident in which all pax were killed?  How many onboard, where did it happen, what type of aircraft was involved?   This is the first I’ve heard of this 1985 accident. Thanks, Jeremy

: Coment: Only one startup airline has had a fatal incident since : deregulation.  That was the May ‘96 Everglades ValuJet crash.  That : incident has been determined to be the fault of a third party — not : the airline or its employees. : : I have been reminded of the Midwest Express incident in 1985, in which : all on board died. : : Air Florida at DCA, Jan 82 (which most people would say is post-deregulation). : Definitely attributed to the airline. : : :

Response:

What is the Midwest Express incident you mentioned?  Can anyone provide some information on this accident in which all pax were killed?  How many onboard, where did it happen, what type of aircraft was involved?   This is the first I’ve heard of this 1985 accident.

Here ya go: NTSB Identification: DCA85AA036 For details, refer to NTSB microfiche number 28310A Scheduled 14 CFR 121 operation of MIDWEST EXPRESS AIRLINES,INC. Accident occurred SEP-06-85 at MILWAUKEE, WI Aircraft: DOUGLAS DC-9-14, registration: N100ME Injuries: 31 Fatal. DRG TAKEOFF, THE ACFT (MIDWEST EXPRESS FLT 105) WAS CLIMBING THRU ABOUT 450′ AGL WHEN THERE WAS A LOUD NOISE AS THE RGT ENG FAILED. SHORTLY THEREAFTER, THE ACFT ENTERED A STEEP DSCNT & CRASHED IN AN APRX 90 DEG, RGT WING LOW, ATTITUDE. AN INV REVEALED THAT THE 9TH TO 10TH STAGE, HI PRESSURE COMPRESSOR SPACER IN THE RGT ENG HAD FAILED. THERE WAS EVIDENCE THE FAILURE WAS PRECIPITATED BY A FATIGUE CRACK IN 1 OF THE 2 KNIFE EDGES ON THE SPACER. INITIALLY, CORRECT (LEFT) RUDDER RESPONSE WAS USED TO COMPENSATE FOR THE LOSS OF POWER IN THE RGT ENG, BUT ABOUT 4 TO 5 SEC LATER, RGT RUDDER DEFLECTION OCCURRED. APRX 10 SEC AFTER THE RGT ENG FAILED, THE ACFT STALLED & WENT OUT OF CONTROL. ALSO, ABOUT 1.5 SEC AFTER THE INITIAL RGT ENG FAILURE, THERE WAS A REDUCTION IN THE LEFT ENG’S RPM, & SUBSEQUENTLY, THE ENG COMPRESSOR STALLED AFTER THE ACFT WENT OUT OF CONTROL & WAS DSCNDG IN AN UNUSUAL ATTITUDE. HOWEVER, THE REDUCTION OF POWER IN THE LEFT ENG WAS NOT CONSIDERED SIGNIFICANT TO THE LOSS OF CONTROL. NEITHER PLT VERBALLY IDENTIFIED THE EMERG CONDITION DRG THE SEQUENCE. Probable Cause Flight controls..Improper use of..Pilot in command Emergency procedure..Improper..no person specified Stall..Inadvertent..Pilot in command Contributing Factors Compressor assembly..Fatigue Crew/group coordination..Improper..no person specified sources:  www.ntsb.gov and www.aviation-safety.net Rich

Response:

Thanks Rich! Jeremy : Here ya go: : : NTSB Identification: DCA85AA036 For details, refer to NTSB microfiche : number 28310A : : Scheduled 14 CFR 121 operation of MIDWEST EXPRESS AIRLINES,INC. : Accident occurred SEP-06-85 at MILWAUKEE, WI : Aircraft: DOUGLAS DC-9-14, registration: N100ME : Injuries: 31 Fatal. : : DRG TAKEOFF, THE ACFT (MIDWEST EXPRESS FLT 105) WAS CLIMBING THRU ABOUT : 450′ AGL WHEN THERE WAS A LOUD NOISE AS THE RGT ENG FAILED. SHORTLY : THEREAFTER, THE ACFT ENTERED A STEEP DSCNT & CRASHED IN AN APRX 90 DEG, RGT : WING LOW, ATTITUDE. AN INV REVEALED THAT THE 9TH TO 10TH STAGE, HI PRESSURE : COMPRESSOR SPACER IN THE RGT ENG HAD FAILED. THERE WAS EVIDENCE THE FAILURE : WAS PRECIPITATED BY A FATIGUE CRACK IN 1 OF THE 2 KNIFE EDGES ON THE : SPACER. INITIALLY, CORRECT (LEFT) RUDDER RESPONSE WAS USED TO COMPENSATE : FOR THE LOSS OF POWER IN THE RGT ENG, BUT ABOUT 4 TO 5 SEC LATER, RGT : RUDDER DEFLECTION OCCURRED. APRX 10 SEC AFTER THE RGT ENG FAILED, THE ACFT : STALLED & WENT OUT OF CONTROL. ALSO, ABOUT 1.5 SEC AFTER THE INITIAL RGT : ENG FAILURE, THERE WAS A REDUCTION IN THE LEFT ENG’S RPM, & SUBSEQUENTLY, : THE ENG COMPRESSOR STALLED AFTER THE ACFT WENT OUT OF CONTROL & WAS DSCNDG : IN AN UNUSUAL ATTITUDE. HOWEVER, THE REDUCTION OF POWER IN THE LEFT ENG WAS : NOT CONSIDERED SIGNIFICANT TO THE LOSS OF CONTROL. NEITHER PLT VERBALLY : IDENTIFIED THE EMERG CONDITION DRG THE SEQUENCE. : : Probable Cause : : Flight controls..Improper use of..Pilot in command : Emergency procedure..Improper..no person specified : Stall..Inadvertent..Pilot in command : : Contributing Factors : : Compressor assembly..Fatigue : Crew/group coordination..Improper..no person specified : : sources:  www.ntsb.gov and www.aviation-safety.net : : Rich

Response:

I won’t argue that.  The guy from AvWeek might, though. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -But did Air Florida exist before 1979?  The article specifically stated that it was referring to airlines that started up after deregulation. It’s a matter of interpretation. Air Florida started in 1972. However, before deregulation, it never operated more than 10 aircraft. Immediately upon deregulation, Air Florida expanded to a high water mark of about 50 aircraft, which it had at the time of the accident when the airline started to fall apart. In my opinion, Air Florida’s existence as a corporation prior to deregulation is basically irrelavant, compared to its history after deregulation.

Response:

Both points are well-taken.  Nevertheless, the 737’s go first, according to the stated policy of the airline.  Later today I will be in a position to look at the Nov 1 fleet status of the airline and will let you know. Steve

I will grant commonality over increased capacity.  BTW, which routes does FL use its 737-200s on??? Rich

Response:

AirTran have 9 737’s left.  4 will be gone by the end of the year and the remaining 5 to be disposed of by 1Q00. I don’t know  AirTran’s route structure.  I assume they left the 737’s on their pre-ValuJet routes. Coment: Only one startup airline has had a fatal incident since deregulation.  That was the May ‘96 Everglades ValuJet crash.  That incident has been determined to be the fault of a third party — not the airline or its employees. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Both points are well-taken.  Nevertheless, the 737’s go first, according to the stated policy of the airline.  Later today I will be in a position to look at the Nov 1 fleet status of the airline and will let you know. Steve I will grant commonality over increased capacity.  BTW, which routes does FL use its 737-200s on??? Rich

Response:

AirTran uses the 737’s mostly on: ATL-MCO ATL-BOS ATL-DFW ATL-MDW flights. Any AirTran flight number beginning with the #8 is operated using the 737 (at least that’s how it was set up when I flew them back in the summer). — Jeremy —

: I will grant commonality over increased capacity.  BTW, which routes : does FL use its 737-200s on??? : : Rich

Response:

AirTran uses the 737’s mostly on: ATL-MCO ATL-BOS ATL-DFW ATL-MDW flights.

So these are all cities which have LARGE population bases or are relatively long range for DC-9-30s. Rich

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AirTran have 9 737’s left.  4 will be gone by the end of the year and the remaining 5 to be disposed of by 1Q00. I don’t know  AirTran’s route structure.  I assume they left the 737’s on their pre-ValuJet routes. Coment: Only one startup airline has had a fatal incident since deregulation.  That was the May ‘96 Everglades ValuJet crash.  That incident has been determined to be the fault of a third party — not the airline or its employees.

I have been reminded of the Midwest Express incident in 1985, in which all on board died.  Since I was quoting AvDaily in the above, I assume I failed to include some key phrase like "in the last 10 years" or "in the 1990’s" that further qualified the statement. My point was that AirTran still takes the heat for the ValuJet incident for which they were not at fault.  Furthermore, from what I can tell, the only relationship between  ValuJet and today’s AirTran is that they use the same equipment.  I think AirTran gets a "bum rap."  (My apologies to those for whom "American" is not a first language.) Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steve Both points are well-taken.  Nevertheless, the 737’s go first, according to the stated policy of the airline.  Later today I will be in a position to look at the Nov 1 fleet status of the airline and will let you know. Steve I will grant commonality over increased capacity.  BTW, which routes does FL use its 737-200s on??? Rich

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Coment: Only one startup airline has had a fatal incident since deregulation.  That was the May ‘96 Everglades ValuJet crash.  That incident has been determined to be the fault of a third party — not the airline or its employees. I have been reminded of the Midwest Express incident in 1985, in which all on board died.  

Air Florida at DCA, Jan 82 (which most people would say is post-deregulation). Definitely attributed to the airline.

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Coment: Only one startup airline has had a fatal incident since deregulation.  That was the May ‘96 Everglades ValuJet crash.  That incident has been determined to be the fault of a third party — not the airline or its employees. I have been reminded of the Midwest Express incident in 1985, in which all on board died.   Air Florida at DCA, Jan 82 (which most people would say is post-deregulation). Definitely attributed to the airline.

But did Air Florida exist before 1979?  The article specifically stated that it was referring to airlines that started up after deregulation. Steve Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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But did Air Florida exist before 1979?  The article specifically stated that it was referring to airlines that started up after deregulation.

It’s a matter of interpretation. Air Florida started in 1972. However, before deregulation, it never operated more than 10 aircraft. Immediately upon deregulation, Air Florida expanded to a high water mark of about 50 aircraft, which it had at the time of the accident when the airline started to fall apart. In my opinion, Air Florida’s existence as a corporation prior to deregulation is basically irrelavant, compared to its history after deregulation.

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Both points are well-taken.  Nevertheless, the 737’s go first, according to the stated policy of the airline.  Later today I will be in a position to look at the Nov 1 fleet status of the airline and will let you know. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beg your pardon, but the 737’s go first.  There were only ever a few (12?) and the comonality between the 717 and DC9 makes it more economical to keep the DC9 as long as possible.  It’s quite likely that some of the 737’s are already gone. I wouldn’t be so fast about that.  The 737s do have more capacity than do any of the DC-9s.  Plus, most of the 737s are newer than any of the DC-9s in FL’s fleet.  While all the DC-9s are -30 series, some are bordering on ancient – 1968ish. Rich Additionally, they announced last week that they will take a large accounting charge this quarter to write down a bunch (if not all) of their DC-9-30s to estimated fair market value on the books; this is consistent with planning to accelerate the disposal of the aircraft. See: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/991105/fl_airtran_1.html Their actions, explicit and implied, do seem to indicate dumping the DC-9s first as the 717s arrive. I would expect the 737s to go as it becomes economically feasible to do so, which may or may not be after the last DC-9 goes, though it sounds like they want to get rid of most DC-9s first. — Kevin Hecht – http://idt.net/~khecht19/ "There are two things that can disrupt the American economy. One is a war. The other is a meeting of the Federal Reserve Board." – Will Rogers

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Beg your pardon, but the 737’s go first.  There were only ever a few (12?) and the comonality between the 717 and DC9 makes it more economical to keep the DC9 as long as possible.  It’s quite likely that some of the 737’s are already gone.

I wouldn’t be so fast about that.  The 737s do have more capacity than do any of the DC-9s.  Plus, most of the 737s are newer than any of the DC-9s in FL’s fleet.  While all the DC-9s are -30 series, some are bordering on ancient – 1968ish. Rich

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beg your pardon, but the 737’s go first.  There were only ever a few (12?) and the comonality between the 717 and DC9 makes it more economical to keep the DC9 as long as possible.  It’s quite likely that some of the 737’s are already gone. I wouldn’t be so fast about that.  The 737s do have more capacity than do any of the DC-9s.  Plus, most of the 737s are newer than any of the DC-9s in FL’s fleet.  While all the DC-9s are -30 series, some are bordering on ancient – 1968ish. Rich

Additionally, they announced last week that they will take a large accounting charge this quarter to write down a bunch (if not all) of their DC-9-30s to estimated fair market value on the books; this is consistent with planning to accelerate the disposal of the aircraft. See: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/991105/fl_airtran_1.html Their actions, explicit and implied, do seem to indicate dumping the DC-9s first as the 717s arrive. I would expect the 737s to go as it becomes economically feasible to do so, which may or may not be after the last DC-9 goes, though it sounds like they want to get rid of most DC-9s first. — Kevin Hecht – http://idt.net/~khecht19/ "There are two things that can disrupt the American economy. One is a war. The other is a meeting of the Federal Reserve Board." – Will Rogers

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Does anyone know if AirTran plans on retiring the 737’s or the DC-9’s first? I remember reading somewhere that AirTran wants to speed up the retirement process of it’s older aircraft and wondered if that meant they were going to get rid of once aircraft type first. Anyone know? — Jeremy —

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DC9s are dumped first.   Hopefully the old ValuJet DC9’s that were purchased from Air Turkey go first.   You rarely see the 737’s at the Atlanta hub, it’s nearly all DC9’s so the new replacment 717’s will probably be flocking mostly here in Atlanta. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know if AirTran plans on retiring the 737’s or the DC-9’s first? I remember reading somewhere that AirTran wants to speed up the retirement process of it’s older aircraft and wondered if that meant they were going to get rid of once aircraft type first. Anyone know? — Jeremy —

Response:

Beg your pardon, but the 737’s go first.  There were only ever a few (12?) and the comonality between the 717 and DC9 makes it more economical to keep the DC9 as long as possible.  It’s quite likely that some of the 737’s are already gone. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – DC9s are dumped first.   Hopefully the old ValuJet DC9’s that were purchased from Air Turkey go first.   You rarely see the 737’s at the Atlanta hub, it’s nearly all DC9’s so the new replacment 717’s will probably be flocking mostly here in Atlanta. Does anyone know if AirTran plans on retiring the 737’s or the DC-9’s first? I remember reading somewhere that AirTran wants to speed up the retirement process of it’s older aircraft and wondered if that meant they were going to get rid of once aircraft type first. Anyone know? — Jeremy —

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Question:

Hello, I have a question. How are co-operative homes viewed, from the accounting/taxation perspective? Are they considered non-profit organizations? As such, do they pay corporate taxes? Thanks — Romuva: http://www.romuva.lt http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/3503 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2810

Response:

How are co-operative homes viewed, from the accounting/taxation perspective? Are they considered non-profit organizations? As such, do they pay corporate taxes?

Co-op accounting and taxation is similar to accounting for a corporation. The members are shareholders and they pay corporate tax.  There are also rules governing co-ops regarding reserves that must be held for future consideration and to protect members shares. Kim

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Question:

I’m having trouble getting a report to spit out of PAW Report Writer. I even paid the $10 to Peachtree support only to have them send me back drivel which was not even close to correct.  Since the report writer manual is not written in a terrestrial language, I thought I’d give a shot here. I’m trying to run a report of Sales by Item by Customer — Detail.  This would be the inverse of the default report, Sales by Customer by Item — Detail.  Basically, I want a list of all my inventory items, with a subheading of the customers that purchased each item and how much they purchased (cumulatively). I can’t get this.  I can get a list which sets forth the same inventory item as a header with every different customer order as a subheading.  The list is correct, but I have to manually add up each quantity to get the total quantity of the item sold. I was also able to get a list which lists each inventory item only once, with a subheading of each customer who purchased it only once.  The problem is that it shows only the last quantity purchased by that customer next to the customer name, which is an incorrect statement of that customer’s purchases during the chosen period.  Strangely enough, the subtotal quantity for the item for all customers is correct, but the subtotal for the net sales amount lists only the last reported invoice.  That is, if Customer A buys 3 pieces of an item on three invoices, and Customer B buys 2 pieces at once, the report shows: Item X     Customer A     1          $5.00      etc…     Customer B     2          $10.00     Subtotal:           5         $15.00 I can’t get the report correct, and I can’t get Peachtree to make it correct — even if I pay them.

Response:

Step 1 – Throw away Peachtree Report Writer Step 2 – Go to www.multiwareinc.com Step 3 – Buy PAWet Step 4 – Write all the reports you want using Access I too was never able to extract the reports I wanted using Peachtree Report Writer. I’ve used PAWet for a year with great success. Bill Westendorf – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m having trouble getting a report to spit out of PAW Report Writer. I even paid the $10 to Peachtree support only to have them send me back drivel which was not even close to correct.  Since the report writer manual is not written in a terrestrial language, I thought I’d give a shot here. I’m trying to run a report of Sales by Item by Customer — Detail.  This would be the inverse of the default report, Sales by Customer by Item — Detail.  Basically, I want a list of all my inventory items, with a subheading of the customers that purchased each item and how much they purchased (cumulatively). I can’t get this.  I can get a list which sets forth the same inventory item as a header with every different customer order as a subheading.  The list is correct, but I have to manually add up each quantity to get the total quantity of the item sold. I was also able to get a list which lists each inventory item only once, with a subheading of each customer who purchased it only once.  The problem is that it shows only the last quantity purchased by that customer next to the customer name, which is an incorrect statement of that customer’s purchases during the chosen period.  Strangely enough, the subtotal quantity for the item for all customers is correct, but the subtotal for the net sales amount lists only the last reported invoice.  That is, if Customer A buys 3 pieces of an item on three invoices, and Customer B buys 2 pieces at once, the report shows: Item X     Customer A     1          $5.00      etc…     Customer B     2          $10.00     Subtotal:           5         $15.00 I can’t get the report correct, and I can’t get Peachtree to make it correct — even if I pay them.

Response:

Try PAWet.  It extract PAW data into an Access database and you can write querys and reports from there.  We’ve been using it daily for the past year. Find them at http://www.multiwareinc.com Bill Westendorf We are running Peachtree Complete Accounting and have purchased the add-on Report Writer package as well.  However, we are still finding that we cannot generate the reports that we want, since Report Writer limits you to 11 views of the data.  Has anyone found a package that will give full query access to all the Peachtree data?  Thanks. Cary Bernhardson

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We are running Peachtree Complete Accounting and have purchased the add-on Report Writer package as well.  However, we are still finding that we cannot generate the reports that we want, since Report Writer limits you to 11 views of the data.  Has anyone found a package that will give full query access to all the Peachtree data?  Thanks. Cary Bernhardson

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Question:

Low Budget Headhunting Enterprise Edition Job Specification Follows: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Position available with dynamic Austin-based systems integration company and Diamond-level SBT Accounting Systems reseller.  Applicant should be a self-starter with experience in Visual Foxpro.  Foxpro 2.6 knowledge and understanding of accounting software a plus. Duties will include providing support and custom modifications to customers using the SBT Accounting System.  Salary commensurate with experience; excellent bonus and benefits package. Reply via e-mail or send resume to:   Software Support   P.O. Box 180065   Austin, TX  78718-0065

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Position available with dynamic Austin-based systems integration company and Diamond-level SBT Accounting Systems reseller.  Applicant should be a self-starter with experience in Visual Foxpro.  Foxpro 2.6 knowledge and understanding of accounting software a plus. Duties will include providing support and custom modifications to customers using the SBT Accounting System.  Salary commensurate with experience; excellent bonus and benefits package. Reply via e-mail or send resume to:    Software Support    P.O. Box 180065    Austin, TX  78718-0065

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Question:

i have an essay to hand in by the end of january. but i still haven’t have enough information to write my essay. do you have any books or suggestion for me? the question of the essay is: discuss, with reference to both the professional and academic literatures, the considerations which impact on the timing of revenue recognition. thank you.

Response:

To ad249: To find information about the above subject, you should go the following organizations: In England:  a national organization dealing with the Chartered Accountants In the United States:  the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants and the Financial Accounting Standards Board.  (Also, there are other organizations that deal with accountants that are not CPA’s.) Use your favorite search engine(s) to find the website for these organizations; than at their websites, try to locate specific information about the subject at hand. Best regards, Al Gershen Grants Pass, Oregon, U.S.A. Have a good day (or night) on the web! Also, I am using WEBTV and it "really" works great!  WEBTV PLUS is here; check it out

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Question:

I flew VFR in a C210 from Johannesburg to Nairobi & back.  Very few of my problems were related to aviation: most were *administrative*.  The authorities have many ways to catch the unwary.  If you want a copy of the article I wrote about it, email me. Neil A Fraser TEL: 27 (11) 468 2892 FAX: 27 (11) 468 2895 ** There’s more fun in getting there    than being there **

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aviation adventure someday soon.  I was thinking about how great it would be to go to someplace like Nairobi, buy a single-engine airplane like a C180 or C185, fly it across the continent to someplace on the west coast of Africa, crate it up and ship it to the U.S.  Obviously, it’s a wild idea that would require tremendous planning and more than a little cash.

Try contacting Mission Aviation Fellowship (MAF).  They operate a fleet of small aircraft in Africa and should have a good idea about general aviation there.  Their home page is http://www.maf.org/, or you can phone their headquarters in Redlands, CA, at 909-794-1151.

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I’m a soon-to-retire military aviator thinking about planning for an epic aviation adventure someday soon.  I was thinking about how great it would be to go to someplace like Nairobi, buy a single-engine airplane like a C180 or C185, fly it across the continent to someplace on the west coast of Africa, crate it up and ship it to the U.S.  Obviously, it’s a wild idea that would require tremendous planning and more than a little cash. Anybody reading this have any comments on general aviation in Africa?

I hope you enjoy it. My comments are based on ground expeditions and I am more than a quarter century out of date. However, on the basis that my advice is worth what you have paid for it: 1) I hope that your military career has given you a love of paperwork. The bureaucracies in Africa were designed by British, French and German colonists who were trying to make a profit from a country with a very small European presence. Image a system designed by accountants…. Almost every official will have one, or more often several, forms which you absolutely have to complete, even if the information is identical to that you just gave in the last office. 2) The British Foreign Office provides a very useful service of information about conditions in foreign countries. I would expect that the US equivalent would do the same. The information is provided by local consuls and embassies and varies from the brief (‘British subjects are recommended not to visit the country’ – Iraq during the Gulf War and possibly also today) to the verbose. It is, however, particularly useful in finding out which areas to avoid, sometimes just one town may be singled out. 3) Although you will have to get visas and entry permissions from the consulates/embassies in the USA, if the local officials accept them without question, consider yourself blessed. This tends to be a greater problem in the more remote areas. 4) Don’t plan your trip too closely for time. Estimate what you think will be a leisurely pace, double it and add your original estimate on as a contingency allowance. There will be delays and some of them might be quite long. Good luck Nightjar

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I`ve a good deal of experience flying large aircraft in Afand would suggest that it`s not a task to be undertaken lightly to fly a single there! Having said that, what an adventure! I have an ex student who has bought a Piper Pacer and intends to do exactly that. Fly it from Europe to Nairobi and back. She`s planning it very carefully, and I expect she`ll do it. I know she`d be delighted to communicate with anyone who has a similar interest. Her name is Ann Lait and she`s at

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