Question:

I’m about to start my study of accounting at the local community colleges. At some schools I see introductory managerial accounting does not require a prereq of introductory financial accounting, and at other schools I see that. Would it be okay if I simulaneously enrolled in intro to financial accounting and intro to managerial? thanks

I suspect you would become very confused very quickly.  Both of these are two entirely different concepts in accounting. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

I’m about to start my study of accounting at the local community colleges. At some schools I see introductory managerial accounting does not require a prereq of introductory financial accounting, and at other schools I see that. Would it be okay if I simulaneously enrolled in intro to financial accounting and intro to managerial? thanks

Response:

I’m about to start my study of accounting at the local community colleges. At some schools I see introductory managerial accounting does not require a prereq of introductory financial accounting, and at other schools I see that. Would it be okay if I simulaneously enrolled in intro to financial accounting and intro to managerial?

Yes, financial accounting is primarily focused on providing information to external users. This information is not very useful to managers because it is generally not timely (it is what happened last month) and aggregated. Managers need information that is timely (what happened this morning) and specific to the firm’s processes. In financial accounting you learn about debits and credits and preparing financial statements according to GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles). In managerial accounting you learn about break-even points, assigning costs to products, etc. So they are really different subjects that do not rely too heavily on the other.

Response:

Question:

Lap dancing didn’t help finance my PhD but a $6 investment did.  Also, we have saying in Ireland, "before you make up your mind..open it". But I guess they don’t teach you that in ‘counting school’ do they !!

No, but in elementary school they taught us punctuation. In college they taught me European punctuation, so don’t even go there. What is your "PhD" in? A

Response:

Can I play with your tits for free? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

It’s still illegal, even if you did get a few bucks.

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised It’s still illegal, even if you did get a few bucks.

That’s why shortly after the postal inspector comes-a-knocking, the IRS isn’t far behind. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.

And if you believe that i’ve got a bridge in Arizona to sell you.l "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds another young boy to victimize."                          referring to Justin                          Timberlake To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address.     —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Peddle your crap somewhere else. Des

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

your post office box will not be getting my $5 !! I am studying Accounting but do not understand your post.  We haven’t got to the chapter on pyramid schemes yet, so perhaps that explains my lack of understanding. Des

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Make Money Fast and Legally Amazing Cash Flow Program AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business. 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list. 3. IS IT RIGHT? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!!! Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH than you thought possible by doing something so easy! IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) J.E. Grey 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada #2) R. Hanson 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada #3) Roy Wiley p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. #4) J. Granger p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 #5) Starr Luu 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 #6) T.N. Meagher 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home based computer and online business and methods of generating income at home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for future CASH.

… read more »

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

Response:

its till a scam and you are still a scifosa

Response:

I am studying Accounting but do not understand your post.  We haven’t got to the chapter on pyramid schemes yet, so perhaps that explains my lack of understanding. Des

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Make Money Fast and Legally Amazing Cash Flow Program AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business. 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list. 3. IS IT RIGHT? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!!! Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH than you thought possible by doing something so easy! IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) J.E. Grey 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada #2) R. Hanson 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada #3) Roy Wiley p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. #4) J. Granger p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 #5) Starr Luu 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 #6) T.N. Meagher 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home based computer and online business and methods of generating income at home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for future CASH. (Database or Spreadsheet software.) *3. If you’re really not sure or still think this can’t be for real, please print a copy of this article and give it to someone who really needs the CASH, and see what happens. *4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, it depends on how much you are posting, the more you post, the better the response will be. ***ALSO REMEMBER***SEND US $1 BILL CURRENCY ONLY!!!—OUT TO EVERYONE ON THE LIST, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FROM THE U.S.

Response:

Lap dancing didn’t help finance my PhD but a $6 investment did.  Also, we have saying in Ireland, "before you make up your mind..open it". But I guess they don’t teach you that in ‘counting school’ do they !!

Response:

| 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? | | I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I | would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL

It’s not.  It’s called a pyramid scheme and is illegal. | 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada | 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada | 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland

Postage to Canada twice, postage to Ireland.  More than if they went to the US. | All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH | you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 | Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws.

Despite this it is still illegal in the US. | PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the | honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully | adhering to the directions.

And it is successful becuase in the words of someone famous there is a sucker born every minute. | NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, | either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. | This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service.

Yeah. That service is called fraud. | Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again…

And if you believe they’re going to declare this income i’ve got a bridge in Arizona to sell you. "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds another young boy to victimize."                          referring to Justin                          Timberlake To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address.     —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

tessa stick with lap dancing

Response:

Even a newbie accountant will recognise this as the scam it really is. Ken Russell

| Make Money Fast and Legally | Amazing Cash Flow Program | AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM | | THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! | | THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the | directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! | | Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like | you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you | could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial | investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must | be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It | said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and | addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very | short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the | bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 | newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and | that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though | the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to | be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. | | 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? | | I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I | would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to | try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the | details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal | business. | | 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? | | I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY | LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This | clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing | list. | | 3. IS IT RIGHT? | | Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT | of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, | having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six | $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I | did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was | shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another | thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made | between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total | of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still | growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just | over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 | and 6 stamps!!! | | Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get | the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you | follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH | than you thought possible by doing something so easy! | | IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not | illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! | | PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or | more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful | because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please | continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You | will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your | product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. | | Here are the 4 easy steps to success: | | STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each | piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your | name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US | $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the | bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). | Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should | now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the | above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 | Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is | creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a | legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a | little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it | all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) | and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to | the following addresses: | | | #1) J.E. Grey | 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada | | #2) R. Hanson | 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada | | #3) Roy Wiley | p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. | | #4) J. Granger | p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 | | #5) Starr Luu | 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 | | #6) T.N. Meagher | 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland | | Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the | list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 | becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. | | STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as | close to original as | possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. | All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH | you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 | Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these | steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, | and again. | | PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the | honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully | adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person | of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many | others have received will come your way. | NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, | either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. | This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might | be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to | reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the | directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for | their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your | name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name | reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in | CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the | first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the | list and you’re in business! | | Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. | | ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages | with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the | people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked | to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and | that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, | people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. | This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the | wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also | may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure | you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of | everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups | to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST | POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make | the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge | rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. | | Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… | | "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are | using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? | You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home | based computer and online business and methods of generating income at | home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your | mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of | thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, | keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing | this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups | and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no | longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the | newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, | make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. | | NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is | illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, | explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, | etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of | the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that | restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for | future CASH. (Database or Spreadsheet software.) *3. If you’re really | not sure or still think this can’t be for real, please print a copy of | this article and give it to someone who really needs the CASH, and see | what happens. *4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, | it depends on how much you are posting, the more you post, the better | the response will be. | | ***ALSO REMEMBER***SEND US $1 BILL CURRENCY ONLY!!!—OUT TO EVERYONE | ON THE LIST, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FROM THE U.S. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Make Money Fast and Legally Amazing Cash Flow Program AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business. 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list. 3. IS IT RIGHT? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!!! Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH than you thought possible by doing something so easy! IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) J.E. Grey 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada #2) R. Hanson 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada #3) Roy Wiley p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. #4) J. Granger p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 #5) Starr Luu 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 #6) T.N. Meagher 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home based computer and online business and methods of generating income at home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for future CASH. (Database or Spreadsheet software.) *3. If you’re really not sure or still think this can’t be for real, please print a copy of this article and give it to someone who really needs the CASH, and see what happens. *4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, it depends on how much you are posting, the more you post, the better the response will be. ***ALSO REMEMBER***SEND US $1 BILL CURRENCY ONLY!!!—OUT TO EVERYONE ON THE LIST, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FROM THE U.S.

Response:

Question:

–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Simple. In the Ben Kolb piece, you LIED about what I said. I said none of those things and you know it. So the question is WHY did you lie? Peter must think this excuses his lying. It doesn’t. On judgment day, he will be held accountable for his lies and repeated lies. Jan

Trying to make up for your poor score in August? $   KaChing    $2 Quackwatch     $10  Ratbags

Response:

More evidence of EVIL organized medicine, with Peter right smack dab in the middle!!!

Jan Drew walks over bodies. Jan Drew is an unscrupulous mafia advertizing agency.

Response:

You got caught didn’t ya??

No, no, it is Jan Drew who got caught. Time and time again Jan Drew was caught advertizing for the naturopath mafia and other criminals like Hulda Regehr Clark. Jan Drew walks over bodies of children. You know why? Because she make people believe that vaccinations are bad. How many children already died because of Jan Drew? Jan Drew, you will pay for that.

Response:

[bullshit] Jan

Here we again see in full public how Jan Drew seeds hatred. She does so to make people beliebe that the naturopath stuff the advertizes is better. But Jan Drew advertizes vor criminals like Hulda Regehr Clark, Klinghardt, Mercola, and so on. Jan Drew is an accomplice and she will pay for that!

Response:

Nope, Peter is a known and repeated liar. KaChinggg til the cows come home, you are still a liar. Jan

Jan Drew caught again: She is advertizing for sharlatan Dietrich Klinghardt. See http://www.google.de/groups?q=klinghardt+author:Jan+author:%3Cjdrew63…

Response:

On judgment day, he will be held accountable for his lies and repeated lies. Jan

GOOGLE ON  Oral Chelation Spray-Test ? Natural Heavy Metal Detox & testing See Testimonials Free Shipping ? www.awakennutrition.com Anzeigen  SolmeteX: Dental practice ? Plug-n-play cradle to grave; 99.82% mercury removal & recycle system. ? www.solmetex.com  Mercury Poisoning ? Dr. Hull’s online hair analysis can identify mercury poisoning. ? www.hairanalysisprogram.com Suchergebnis 4 Betrifft:Re: Mercury Toxicity Newsgroups:misc.health.alternative View: Complete Thread (43 Beitr

Question:

I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

Response:

I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

can’t help you with the proggie but just wanted to point out the obvious — if you have MS excel, you can just make a table with a graph yourself. it’s fun and you have a lot of options regarding the visual output. it also exports to web pages. here’s mine (kinda old but you get the idea): http://zarathustra.pentragon.net/temp/tummy.htm nina 210/153/140

Response:

I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

If you register at www.fitday.com, you can input your weight, and a goal weight/date, and access the kind of graph you describe. Mardi — To reply by e-mail, please replace <NOSPAM with <NYCAP.rr. But not to send me spam!  I never requested your "report," and I’m not interested in your pyramid scheme which, by the way, is NOT legal!

Response:

Was this a shareware program?  Perhaps they have a newer version that works with ME?  What is the name of the program? — Melissa 140/122/118

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

Response:

Thank you all for the input!  I cannot remember the name of the program exactly but the exe was called dtk.exe and it was made by a company named Softrak who I can no longer find on the Web.  I don’t have Excel on my computer but that is a good idea!  Thanks!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was this a shareware program?  Perhaps they have a newer version that works with ME?  What is the name of the program? — Melissa 140/122/118 I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

Response:

See if you can find anything here: http://download.cnet.com/downloads/1,10150,0-10001-103-0-1-7,00.html?… h&qt=weight+loss&cn=&ca=10001

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

Response:

well I found a few softrak websites… they look like accounting things. One is www.softrak.com another is.. www.stepwise.com/softrak. I did a google search for softrak and these are only two of the ones I found.  Not sure exactly what the company is so I don’t know if it’s them. But try the google search and sort through.. Perhaps you will find it there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you all for the input!  I cannot remember the name of the program exactly but the exe was called dtk.exe and it was made by a company named Softrak who I can no longer find on the Web.  I don’t have Excel on my computer but that is a good idea!  Thanks! Was this a shareware program?  Perhaps they have a newer version that works with ME?  What is the name of the program? — Melissa 140/122/118 I used to have a great little piece of software that was a simple graph, showing weight lost each day and a target date for loss and then after I reinstalled my Windows ME, the program (which I’d backed up) would no longer install. Does anyone know of a similar program which I could download?  I’d be very grateful for your help!

Response:

Question:

\ I know many of you are TU leaders and have already heard this but several here have not.  The almighty US Government is trying to cut the budget for the USGS including the streamgaging and water quality analysis programs.  To me this is with a link to where you can learn more and have easy access to write your congressman.  I’m not trying to start an anti-American thread or anything just trying to get the word out.  If you live in the US we can use your support.  Take a few minutes to stop by\

This is "getting personal", but Bush’s decision today to end the Roadless Initiative,(msnbc.com) and to reduce water quality and Endangered Species Act   standards isn’t? Strange. Also Bush cut the western fire fighting fund by HALF ( this was given by clinton last year).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The almighty US Government is trying to cut the budget for the USGS including the streamgaging and water quality analysis programs. Interestingly enough, the TU info in the link you provided is fairly inaccurate with respect to the portion of the overall water program cut taken by the streamgaging program.  The TU "alert" states that "streamgaging took a large part of that cut".  Cuts in the Streamgaging Program represent about 11% of the overall water program cut, while cuts in two water quality programs, the National Water Quality Assessment Program and the Toxic Substances Hydrology Research program represent about 68% of the overall cut.  IMO, at least, while the cut in the Streamgaging Program could be significant, it hardly represents a large part" of the overall cut.  I also am somewhat surprised that the TU "alert" does not also identify cuts in the water quality programs as a matter of concern.  Stream flow conditions may be important to anglers; however, water quality is important to fish. For those of you who want to find out more about what the USGS does with respect to water resources, try http://www.usgs.gov/ The summary of the USGS budget for FY2002 can be found at: http://www.usgs.gov/budget/2002/budget_hilite.html My guess is that since the Bush administration seems to be quite interested in supporting natural resource exploration/development/exploitation activities, Federal programs that may yield data that reveal the problems with such activities will be on the short end of the budget allocation process.

Stream gaging has relevance well beyond fishing. It’s a matter of keeping track of where the water is coming from and where it’s going. This is important information for everyone who wants the water–advocates for fish and irrigators alike. It keeps the dam operators honest when they have promised minimum flows. Obviously it’s needed for flood warning. The way it’s done is that the gage keeps a continuous record of the water height. Some of these are more-or-less online. Occasionally somone will come around and make a streamflow measurement. At various flows this is correlated with the gage height to develop what’s called a rating curve. The curve will shift around with changes in the bottom profile. This makes frequent measurements desirable. The continuous record of the gage height and the rating curve are put together to estimate flow totals etc. What the cuts probably mean is that fewer measurements will be made, degrading the accuracy of the curves, maintenance on gages deferred and all those sorts of bad things. I spend a couple of summers 35 years ago when I was in college working for the USGS doing streamgaging in the northwest corner of California. There was an occasion when this old boy was watching us make a measurement and asked us what we were doing. Being young and innocent we gave him the full PR explanation of how and why. After this performance he says "I bet your guys are the sumbitches who want to take all our water and give it to southern Calfornia." Actually we were the sumbitches who were telling the sumbitches in southern Calfornia that there was enough water here to be worth their while taking. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

Response:

Also Bush cut the western fire fighting fund by HALF ( this was given by clinton last year).

After his campaign contributors clear cut the forests there won’t be any need for a fire fighting fund, will there? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Also Bush cut the western fire fighting fund by HALF ( this was given by clinton last year). After his campaign contributors clear cut the forests there won’t be any need for a fire fighting fund, will there?

And it will be nice for Shrub and his buddies that there won’t be stream gauge data to illustrate the detrimental effects they will have wrought upon watersheds. JR

Response:

http://www.sacbee.com/news/projects/environment/20010425.html  Read this.  Excerpts below. Photo gallery Barren trees stand high on a hill in Tahoe National Forest as the sun rises. This burned and barren area is 20 miles north of Truckee, near Cottonwood Creek. (Click photo for larger view in gallery) Bee/Jose M. Osorio Playing with fire Spin on science puts national treasure at risk (Fourth of five parts) By Tom Knudson Bee Staff Writer (Published April 25, 2001) The scientific paper that landed on Tammy Randall-Parker’s desk was thick with jargon and data. But to Randall-Parker, a biologist with the Coconino National Forest in Arizona, it was riveting. Citing an enormous accumulation of vegetation and deadwood in Western forests — the legacy of years of effective federal firefighting — the report by a prestigious team of specialists warned that unless such stands were thinned, they were likely to erupt into flame, threatening a rare, falcon-like bird: the northern goshawk. Randall-Parker felt compelled to act. But when she and others suggested thinning near a goshawk nest, environmentalists protested on the bird’s behalf, stopping the proposal dead. Then came the fire that Randall-Parker feared. "I watched it just explode," she said. The 1996 blaze devoured centuries-old trees as if they were kindling — including the one that cradled the goshawk nest. "There was not a green tree left," she said. "What the scientists said could happen — did happen, right in front of my eyes." Environmental advocacy has long struggled with scientific fact, despite its very basis in science. But in the battle over the majestic conifer forests that blanket much of the West, advocacy is often shoving science aside — and forests, wildlife and human communities are suffering the consequences. Tweaking science to make a point is nothing new for environmental groups. To protect rare species, for example, some groups trot out just those studies — or snippets of studies — that support their view. Some will pick and choose facts that serve their interests in campaigns to create wilderness areas. Misusing forest science is different. It is playing with fire. Not the natural fires that have nourished forests for centuries, but unusually savage ones that jeopardize homes and human lives and can inflict more serious environmental damage than logging. "We’re not sure if some of these burned areas will ever recover their native biological diversity," said Wallace Covington, a professor of forest ecology at Northern Arizona University and a nationally recognized fire scientist. "Certainly, over evolutionary time, new species will emerge. But these are major devastations." Science will never settle all conflict over forest and fire management. But during the past two decades, university, government and industry scientists have written a series of papers published in academic journals and elsewhere that point again and again to the rapid and dangerous accumulation of woody debris in Western forests — and the need for thinning. "There is strong consensus among credible scientists that 100 years of fire suppression has led to a buildup of fuel in Western forests that makes them very susceptible to destructive, unnatural, ecosystem-destroying wildfire," said Neil Sampson, a visiting fellow at the Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies and former chairman of the 1994 National Commission on Wildfire Disasters. "Time is not an ally," he said. Environmental groups aren’t convinced. Where science sees a tinderbox, they see timber sales in disguise. And despite a steep drop in the volume of timber sold from federal forests in recent years, they say the U.S. Forest Service cannot be trusted. "We’re dealing with an agency that — at the district level — is a rogue agency," said Carl Pope, executive director of the Sierra Club, which is backing a "no commercial logging" campaign in Congress. "There are some very good people in the Forest Service," Pope said. "But there are some people who really still think their job is to keep the local mill running." Sampson said it’s just not so. "The idea that thinning the forest is a boondoggle for the timber industry is bizarre," he said. "Much of what needs to be removed isn’t even economically valuable. They are going to spin the science and lose the forest." Wildfire today is inflicting nightmarish wounds — injuries made worse by a failure to heed scientific warnings. For example: * In 1994, Covington and a colleague warned that the Kendrick Mountain Wilderness Area in northern Arizona was so clotted with vegetation, it was ready to explode. "Delay … will only perpetuate fuel buildup and increase the potential for uncontrolled and destructive wildfire," they wrote in a scientific analysis for the Kaibab National Forest. Some thinning was done — but not enough. Last year, a large fire swept through the region, carving an apocalyptic trail of destruction. "What happened is much worse, ecologically, than a clear-cut — much worse," Covington said "And that fire is the future. It’s happening again and again. We’re going to have skeletal landscapes." * Listening to fire and forest scientists, Martha Ketelle pleaded in 1996 for permission to log and thin an incendiary mass of storm-killed timber in California’s Trinity Alps. "This is a true emergency of vast magnitude," Ketelle, then supervisor of the Six Rivers National Forest, wrote to her boss in San Francisco. "It is not a matter of if a fire will occur, but how extensive the damage will be when the fire does occur." Because of an environmental appeal, the project bogged down. Then, in 1999, a fire found its way into the area. It spewed smoke for hundreds of miles, incinerated spotted owl habitat and triggered soil erosion and stream damage in a key salmon-spawning watershed. * Early last year, officials of Santa Fe National Forest in New Mexico urged that dense pine stands near Los Alamos be thinned. "The underlying need is to reduce the potential for large, high intensity crown fires that threaten people, property, wildlife (and) watersheds," they stated in a report. The project was slowed by a lack of funds and by environmental concerns. Last May, the Cerro Grande fire, the largest and most destructive in New Mexico history, erupted in the very area recommended for thinning, damaging or destroying more than 220 structures, including several portable structures at Los Alamos National Laboratory. "Witnessing the Cerro Grande fire is the closest I’ll come to seeing a biblical event in my lifetime," said Bill Armstrong, a forester with the Santa Fe National Forest. "It was unstoppable. Awe-inspiring. Futile. It was not, however, an unpreventable act of God." —- Step into the forest outside Flagstaff, Ariz., and you enter a world of living matchsticks. You see dozens, hundreds, thousands of spindly, stunted ponderosa pines, crowded close together in shadowy thickets — each competing with the others for moisture, soil nutrients and sunlight. It is a much different setting from the one described by E.F. Beale, an explorer who passed through the area in 1858. "We came to a glorious forest of lofty pines," Beale wrote in a journal. "The forest was perfectly open and unencumbered with brush wood, so that the traveling was excellent." What made that 19th century forest spacious was fire. "Frequent surface fires were as important to … forests as sunshine and rain," Thomas Swetnam, director of the University of Arizona’s Tree-Ring Laboratory, told Congress last year. "Indeed, in southwestern ponderosa pine forests, the only natural events more frequent and regular than fire were the changing seasons." Smokey Bear changed all that. Preventing and putting out fires, though, turned forests into thickets. Covington, the fire scientist, has quantified the change. In the Kaibab National Forest in Arizona, he found an area that sprouted 36 to 81 trees per acre in 1876 had grown shaggy and dense with 692 to 1,801 trees per acre by 1994. A 1999 report by the U.S. General Accounting Office concluded: "The most extensive and serious problem (for) national forests in the interior West is the overaccumulation of vegetation. According to the Forest Service, 39 million acres are at high risk" of fire. Not content to lick lightly along the surface of the forest, snapping up grass, brush and small trees, modern-day blazes roar up a staircase of woody debris, leaping high into the forest canopy. Such contemporary "crown fires" burn so hot that they destroy everything from microscopic life in the soil to majestic, old-growth trees that have been nourished by centuries of cooler fires. "The fires we are experiencing now — and I’ve been in this business 27 years — are unlike anything we have experienced in this country before," said Paul Summerfelt, a fuel management officer with the Flagstaff fire department. "And this is just the beginning." —- — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also Bush cut the western fire fighting fund by HALF ( this was given by clinton last year). After his campaign contributors clear cut the forests there won’t be any need for a fire fighting fund, will there? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Interesting post. Bu I don’t get it. First Montana was pissed because they didn’t have enough emergency funds for the fires. Now that Bush has cut the funds clinton has given in half, they are ok with it? Getting burned by timber Chad Hanson – For the Boulder Camera In the wake of the fires in New Mexico, the timber industry is mobilizing its P.R. machine to try to convince the public of the need to increase logging on our national forests, supposedly to protect them from catastrophic fires. To imagine timber executives sitting around their quarterly board meetings talking about the pressing need to save forests is to realize the absurdity of this posturing. The U.S. Forest Service is now parroting this doublespeak, using it as a means to sell huge volumes of public timber to logging corporations under the guise of "forest stewardship." The truth is that commercial logging doesn’t prevent catastrophic fires, it causes them. The 1996 scientific study of the Sierra Nevada forests, which was commissioned and funded by Congress, found that "timber harvest, through its effects on forest structure, local microclimate and fuel accumulation, has increased fire severity more than any other recent human activity." Another Forest Service report, "Forest Resources of the United States" (1994), revealed that tree mortality in the West due to both fire and disease increases in logged areas. The worst rates were on private lands where logging levels are highest and where the least natural forest remains. For example, in western forests from 1986 to 1991, mortality due to fire and disease on private lands increased 20 percent, while it increased only 3 percent on national forests and decreased 9 percent on other public lands. Logging makes forests more susceptible to both fire and disease. Forests that have been logged are drier, have less shade and have accumulated flammable debris known as "slash piles" comprising unsaleable branches and limbs left by logging crews. Fires tend to start in logged areas and occasionally spread into old-growth stands, which are naturally fire-resistant due to the thick bark of older trees. If a fire does kill an old-growth stand, the burned trees still provide valuable nesting habitat for birds of prey and countless other forest species. Wildlife has little use for stumps. In April 1999, the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO), a federal department that often watchdogs agencies at the request of congressional leaders, released a report on the Forest Service’s approach to fire management, calling into serious question the use of the timber sales program to address fire issues. The GAO noted that "most of the trees that need to be removed to reduce accumulated fuels are small in diameter and have little or no commercial value." The report nevertheless found that Forest Service managers "tend to (1) focus on areas with high-value commercial timber rather than on areas with high fire hazards or (2) include more large, commercially valuable trees in a timber sale than are necessary to reduce the accumulated fuels." The "low-value materials," said the GAO, "are unattractive to timber purchasers." So much for the timber industry’s rhetoric about "thinning understory brush." In fact, the Forest Service’s own documents state that it fights fires not to protect forest ecosystems, but rather to prevent burns from reducing the commodity value of trees that the agency intends to sell to logging companies. It’s all about economics, not ecology. Former Forest Service Chief Jack Ward Thomas candidly acknowledged this in 1994: "Relatively high levels of mortality in an area from which you do not expect to extract timber, for example, might be perfectly acceptable. … For example, to isolate Yellowstone [as an example] … it burns up; it burns hot, and the system that’s associated with it comes back. We didn’t want anything from it. It’s perfectly OK. It’s a national park. It’s interesting, and we can observe the wildflowers, and it’s beautiful." Our national forests will never be safe from the logging industry’s deceptions until we end the federal timber sales program, and redirect current timber subsidies into ecological restoration jobs, as HR 1396, the National Forest Protection and Restoration Act, would do. Future generations will thank us. <http://www.bouldernews.com/opinion/editorials/chad.html The Best Way to Fight Fires? Set More By Rob Taylor – Washington Post Sunday, May 21, 2000; Page B02 Even as firefighters battle the "controlled burn" that escaped to rage through Los Alamos and 50,000 acres of New Mexico land, the U.S. Forest Service is preparing to recommend a tenfold increase in the government’s prescribed burning program. The timing is unfortunate, even bizarre. But there is compelling evidence that despite its inherent risks, prescribed burning is the right thing to do. In order to minimize future tragedies in the forests and towns of the West, we need more controlled burns–a lot more. The Forest Service proposal, contained in a draft report to Congress being reviewed by Clinton administration officials, is the culmination of a historic reversal in the agency’s policies, an admission that its longtime practice of stamping out all fires has more than failed, it has backfired. Without fires to thin them out, certain kinds of forests have grown so dense that wildfires burn unnaturally hot, causing ecological decline, risking lives and driving up the costs of firefighting and property damage. These forests–the ponderosa pinelands that are the most common forests in the Western United States–need fire in order to thrive. To understand why, consider their ecology. In its natural state, the ponderosa pine forest consists mostly of big trees, widely separated; early settlers in the West wrote of driving wagons through the forest without touching a tree. In those days, fires swept frequently across these forests–every five to 15 years on a typical plot. Most were started by lightning, but a relatively small number were set by Native Americans–and, later, white settlers–to stimulate growth of new grass for livestock or keep vistas open for hunting. These "light" fires kept down what forest experts call "fuel levels"–the fallen branches, small trees and underbrush that catch fire easily and spread flames. And they did little damage to mature ponderosas, which are shielded by their thick, asbestos-like bark. That natural cycle was broken shortly after the Forest Service was created in 1905. Within a few years, the agency had established a policy of trying to suppress all forest fires. Its pervasive view, one that mascot Smokey Bear later conveyed to generations of American children, was that forest fires were dangerous, destructive and preventable. The agency built "Ponderosa Way," a Maginot Line of lookouts, roads and firebreaks meant to hold back fires along the face of the Sierra Nevada. From 1935 to 1978, it had a "10 a.m. policy," with a goal of controlling any wildfire on federal lands by that time the next day. Bolstered by armies of smoke jumpers, bulldozers, helicopters and flame-retardant bombers, the Forest Service succeeded at fire suppression for half a century. In the 1970s, the policy faltered. While wildfires were kept under a million acres a year between 1945 and 1977, after that the burned acreage rose sharply–to more than a million acres in 17 of the next 20 years, sometimes topping 2 million or even 3 million. Spending on firefighting manpower and technology had increased, so what was going wrong? Drought was a factor; but mostly, scientists now say, the forests had changed. Those pine forests, spared from fire, filled up with brush and other species of trees. In the forests around Los Alamos, according to Wallace Covington, a professor of forest ecology at Northern Arizona University, there were 20 to 55 trees per acre a century ago; there are 300 to 900 today. Crowding made the trees vulnerable to disease, insect pests and drought. Medium-sized trees formed a "ladder" to carry low flames up to the canopy of big ponderosa pines, where the branches were vulnerable. And, unlike the ponderosa pine, many of these smaller species could not withstand even light fires. Timber management often added to forest flammability. Loggers cut down big, fire-resistant pines and left inferior trees standing; they left branches and discarded treetops on the ground. These thicker, sicker forests began producing bigger, scarier wildfires. Washington state’s 1994 Tyee Creek Fire (started by lightning), for instance, spawned thousand-foot-tall tornadoes of flame, spread faster than a man can run, generated gale-force winds, drove firefighters before it like quail and slowed only when it ran out of dry fuel. It blackened 140,000 acres, vaporized essential nutrients, primed the hills for floods and mudslides, and left a $65 million bill for fighting fire and restoring the land. Unlike the lodgepole pines of Yellowstone National Park, which burned spectacularly in 1988, ponderosa pine forests were not naturally prone to such hot, damaging fires. Their new explosiveness changed the nature of firefighting. "It used to be 10,000 to 20,000 acres was a huge fire. Now it’s not unusual to see a 100,000-acre fire," says Mike Hilbruner, a Forest Service fire ecologist. This is a major issue in the interior West, where such fires threaten not only forests, but also native plants, fish and wildlife, residents, firefighters, homes in rural areas–and towns. Los Alamos is not the first town to be invaded by wildfire from forest or brush lands. In recent years, towns in Washington, Oregon, Florida, Colorado, Michigan and California have seen wildfires roar through residential areas. The brush-fueled 1991 … read more »

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The almighty US Government is trying to cut the budget for the USGS including the streamgaging and water quality analysis programs.

Interestingly enough, the TU info in the link you provided is fairly inaccurate with respect to the portion of the overall water program cut taken by the streamgaging program.  The TU "alert" states that "streamgaging took a large part of that cut".  Cuts in the Streamgaging Program represent about 11% of the overall water program cut, while cuts in two water quality programs, the National Water Quality Assessment Program and the Toxic Substances Hydrology Research program represent about 68% of the overall cut.  IMO, at least, while the cut in the Streamgaging Program could be significant, it hardly represents a large part" of the overall cut.  I also am somewhat surprised that the TU "alert" does not also identify cuts in the water quality programs as a matter of concern.  Stream flow conditions may be important to anglers; however, water quality is important to fish. For those of you who want to find out more about what the USGS does with respect to water resources, try http://www.usgs.gov/ The summary of the USGS budget for FY2002 can be found at: http://www.usgs.gov/budget/2002/budget_hilite.html My guess is that since the Bush administration seems to be quite interested in supporting natural resource exploration/development/exploitation activities, Federal programs that may yield data that reveal the problems with such activities will be on the short end of the budget allocation process.

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<cut & pasted from a list serve… I know many of you are TU leaders and have already heard this but several here have not.  The almighty US Government is trying to cut the budget for the USGS including the streamgaging and water quality analysis programs.  To me this is with a link to where you can learn more and have easy access to write your congressman.  I’m not trying to start an anti-American thread or anything just trying to get the word out.  If you live in the US we can use your support.  Take a few minutes to stop by http://capwiz.com/tu/issues/alert/?alertid=16435&type=CO and learn more.  They have a section to put in your zip code to get a pre written letter to send to your congressmen.  If you depend on the USGS stream flow data please take action!!!!!! Take Care!! — Scott Cunningham http://wnctrout.com – Guide to public trout water in WNC!!!

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If I truly believe that gov’t is too big and tries to do to much, I must fairly apply that principle to programs that even "help" me.

I gotta say, the logic of that escapes me.   Across the board reductions are pointless IMHO.   To me, it’s not how much the gov’t spends, it’s where it spends it.   Better to target the "useless" programs; and to me that defines as "those I disagree with".   Stuff I like should be fully funded, stuff I don’t like should be eliminated completely. Frankly, having the federal government spend 10’s of millions of dollars for streamgages whose most practical use is for a few trout fishermen is not that important, to me. I think we can be rest assured that the most streamgages, and especially those that have multiple practical uses for things such as water allocation, irrigation, etc., will continue to be supported. For those out of the way places that are less important, while it would be nice for us fishermen to have instant flow access, I must say that I don’t see it as important enough to spend tax dollars.

Those out of the way gauges are all part of the big picture.   When the stream gauge in a populated area hits the flood stage, it’s useful info to know where the hell all that water came from; and it came from smaller, out of the way streams.   I have a more Mid-Atlantic population center perspective, I admit; but everytime a field is turned into housing or industrial development around here, it changes the flow characteristic of nearby streams.   In more wilderness settings, I’d expect a similar result from forest fires, clearcuts, etc.   IMHO, stream gauge info is a useful measure of those effects, as well as other environmental measures. Joe F.

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Question:

I’m not an accountant, but I’m trying to understand the key differences between these two types of accounting/reporting of a life insurer’s financials.  Can anyone either provide me with some information or point me to a good source of information? Thanks.

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|I’m not an accountant, but I’m trying to understand the key differences |between these two types of accounting/reporting of a life insurer’s |financials.  Can anyone either provide me with some information or point me |to a good source of information? Regarding life insurance financials, statutory and GAAP accounting principles have two different philosophies.  Statutory accounting is balance sheet (claims paying) oriented.  That is, the principles embodied are to obtain a conservative estimate of current surplus for regulators to give them early warnings that an insurer will have difficulties meeting their obligations to policyholders.  GAAP accounting is income sheet oriented.  This is more geared to giving stockholders a reasonable idea of how their investments are faring.  Recently, mutual life insurers, owned by the policyholders, were required to file under GAAP as well as stautory accounting.  This has little to do with taxes since the IRS requires yet a third (though similar) accounting treatment. While there are many differences between GAAP and statutory reserves, the key difference is that GAAP seeks to match revenues with expenses while statutory doesn’t.  Primarily, there is an entry known as DAC (deferred acquisition costs – primarily commissions).  The insurer pays out hefty initial commissions to agents and hopes to get those amounts back as policyholders pay their premiums.  However, policyholders can surrender their policies before the insurer can recoup its investment (surrender charges are not sufficient for this).  GAAP allows insurers to recognize DAC as future income in the form of an asset; statutory doesn’t. On the liability side, statutory life reserves, the principle liability of a life insurer, are calculated based upon conservative mortality tables and interest rates. GAAP reserves are based on an actuary’s best guess (so to speak). This is all in the name of emphasizing current surplus (you may get a billion dollars tomorrow, but you can’t pay claims today).                         – sbj –

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Statutory accounting is meant to be fiscally conservative.  It’s use is mandated by the state insurance departments that oversee the industry.  The primary concern is ensure that a company does not overstate the strength of it’s financial position and possibly expose insureds to the risk of the company not being there when the time comes to pay out on its contracts. Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) developed in the non-insurance business world.  They are maintained under the guidance of the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) which attempts to keep these principals current as the business world constantly changes.  Both systems attempt to present consistent statements of the company’s financial position so that the reader of their reports can expect certain practices to be followed that avoid some of the unscrupulous representations that were made in the early days of industry. There is a movement now, referred to as "codification," whereby the two systems are trying to resolve their differences as they apply to insurance companies. The actual mandating of this new set of principles is still at least a few years away. I am not an accountant, but this is the way I’ve had it explained to me by the financial folks at our company.  This certainly is subject to anyone else’s correction and elaboration. Joe DeMonte

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Question:

All the reports I’ve seen, including direct quotes from Condit and Stonecipher, indicate that the merger was hammered out in 4 days ending Sunday.  

New reports that I have read indicate that these negotiations have been going on for about 4 years.

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All the reports I’ve seen, including direct quotes from Condit and Stonecipher, indicate that the merger was hammered out in 4 days ending Sunday.  This was 2 weeks after the AA announcement.

Do you really think that Boeing’s president met McD’s president "by accident" at a bar, discussed a possible merger over a couple of drinks and ended up deciding it would work ? I suspect that Boeing had its eyes on McD for a LONG time prior to this 4 day negotiations round and that Boeing accounting creatures had been busy evaluating the feasability of such a venture prior to those 4 days. Hence, Boeing’s president would have known about the possible merger plan well before AA signed on the dotted line. As a matter of fact, Boeing may have made sure AA was on-board with Boeing to further demoralize McD and make it easier for Boeing to gobble McD. — Internet Message Header Follows — Path: news.telcel.net.ve!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer… Newsgroups: rec.travel.air Organization: SPC Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp027.135.mmtl.videotron.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

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Considering the timing of the AA announcement vs the Boing buyout of McD, I would tend to think that the president of AA was aware that Boeing had its eyes on McD at the time the AA decision was made. All the reports I’ve seen, including direct quotes from Condit and Stonecipher, indicate that the merger was hammered out in 4 days ending Sunday.

I doubt a merger of this size could be hammered out in 4 days…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All the reports I’ve seen, including direct quotes from Condit and Stonecipher, indicate that the merger was hammered out in 4 days ending Sunday.  This was 2 weeks after the AA announcement. Do you really think that Boeing’s president met McD’s president "by accident" at a bar, discussed a possible merger over a couple of drinks and ended up deciding it would work ? I suspect that Boeing had its eyes on McD for a LONG time prior to this 4 day negotiations round and that Boeing accounting creatures had been busy evaluating the feasability of such a venture prior to those 4 days. Hence, Boeing’s president would have known about the possible merger plan well before AA signed on the dotted line. As a matter of fact, Boeing may have made sure AA was on-board with Boeing to further demoralize McD and make it easier for Boeing to gobble McD.

Not that any of our opinions here matter, but Condit and Stonecipher are old friends, since Condit was involved in the development of the 757 and Stonecipher was with GE trying to peddle engines for it.  They have disccussed this possibility before.  Don’t forget that McD has just agreed to subcontract work on Boeing jets to utilize its excess capacity.  I tend to think that this is the natural outgrowth of various discussions, which may have culminated over a couple of drinks. Jeff

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All the reports I’ve seen, including direct quotes from Condit and Stonecipher, indicate that the merger was hammered out in 4 days ending Sunday.  This was 2 weeks after the AA announcement.

Do you really think that Boeing’s president met McD’s president "by accident" at a bar, discussed a possible merger over a couple of drinks and ended up deciding it would work ? I suspect that Boeing had its eyes on McD for a LONG time prior to this 4 day negotiations round and that Boeing accounting creatures had been busy evaluating the feasability of such a venture prior to those 4 days. Hence, Boeing’s president would have known about the possible merger plan well before AA signed on the dotted line. As a matter of fact, Boeing may have made sure AA was on-board with Boeing to further demoralize McD and make it easier for Boeing to gobble McD.

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Considering the timing of the AA announcement vs the Boing buyout of McD, I would tend to think that the president of AA was aware that Boeing had its eyes on McD at the time the AA decision was made. All the reports I’ve seen, including direct quotes from Condit and Stonecipher, indicate that the merger was hammered out in 4 days ending Sunday.  This was 2 weeks after the AA announcement.  So there’s no way Crandall could have known about it. The causality is probably in the other direction.  For McDonnell Douglas, it might have been the final nail in the coffin that convinced them they really couldn’t go it alone any more.

I doubt AA/Crandall knew about the merger when making the Boeing order. I tend to agree with Stefano that the AA order might have been the final nail in the coffin.  Rumors of AA’s Boeing order first came out when MDC cancelled the MD-XX plan which AA was one of the prime launch customers (along with Swissair). BTW, it is rumored that Swissair will order the A330-200 to replace the A310.

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Considering the timing of the AA announcement vs the Boing buyout of McD, I would tend to think that the president of AA was aware that Boeing had its eyes on McD at the time the AA decision was made.

All the reports I’ve seen, including direct quotes from Condit and Stonecipher, indicate that the merger was hammered out in 4 days ending Sunday.  This was 2 weeks after the AA announcement.  So there’s no way Crandall could have known about it. The causality is probably in the other direction.  For McDonnell Douglas, it might have been the final nail in the coffin that convinced them they really couldn’t go it alone any more. — Stefano Pagiola 850 N Randolph Str No.817, Arlington VA 22203, USA All opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer

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 Kind of makes that AA announcement to go sole-ly Boeing a moot point, huh? Considering the timing of the AA announcement vs the Boing buyout of McD, I would tend to think that the president of AA was aware that Boeing had its eyes on McD at the time the AA decision was made. He may not have been able to tell his grunts about the possibility of Boeing buying McD, so he may have just told them "Trust me, we have to go Boeing". Boeing must have had hoards of accountants working on this merger well before negotiations with McD even began and definitely well before any public announcement was made. — Internet Message Header Follows — Path: news.telcel.net.ve!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!node2.frontier… Newsgroups: rec.travel.air Organization: SPC Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp236.223.mmtl.videotron.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) — Internet Message Header Follows — Newsgroups: rec.travel.air Distribution: world Organization: TogetherNet Lines: 32 Path: news.telcel.net.ve!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!n… — Internet Message Header Follows — Newsgroups: rec.travel.air Distribution: world Organization: TogetherNet Lines: 45 Path: news.telcel.net.ve!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprint…

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 Kind of makes that AA announcement to go sole-ly Boeing a moot point, huh? Considering the timing of the AA announcement vs the Boing buyout of McD, I would tend to think that the president of AA was aware that Boeing had its eyes on McD at the time the AA decision was made. He may not have been able to tell his grunts about the possibility of Boeing buying McD, so he may have just told them "Trust me, we have to go Boeing". Boeing must have had hoards of accountants working on this merger well before negotiations with McD even began and definitely well before any public announcement was made. — Internet Message Header Follows — Path: news.telcel.net.ve!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!node2.frontier… Newsgroups: rec.travel.air Organization: SPC Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp236.223.mmtl.videotron.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) — Internet Message Header Follows — Newsgroups: rec.travel.air Distribution: world Organization: TogetherNet Lines: 32 Path: news.telcel.net.ve!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!n…

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I just read a brief report that Boeing and McDonnel Douglas might be merging within the next 6 months (pending Federal Trade Commission ruling), which would leave Boeing and Airbus as the only two major manafacturers of large commercial aircraft. Does anyone have any detailed information on this, and how it might affect the aircraft market?  The information I have is somewhat vague, but appears to be true.

Yes, it is true.  According to the Seattle Times, the name of the new company will be "Boeing."  The McDonnell/Douglas name apparently will be retained in some of the new company’s divisions.  It is expected that the finalization of the acquisition will take up to six months. C. Marin Faure    author, Flying a Floatplane

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 Kind of makes that AA announcement to go sole-ly Boeing a moot point, huh? Considering the timing of the AA announcement vs the Boing buyout of McD, I would tend to think that the president of AA was aware that Boeing had its eyes on McD at the time the AA decision was made. He may not have been able to tell his grunts about the possibility of Boeing buying McD, so he may have just told them "Trust me, we have to go Boeing". Boeing must have had hoards of accountants working on this merger well before negotiations with McD even began and definitely well before any public announcement was made.

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 Kind of makes that AA announcement to go sole-ly Boeing a moot point, huh? Considering the timing of the AA announcement vs the Boing buyout of McD, I would tend to think that the president of AA was aware that Boeing had its eyes on McD at the time the AA decision was made. He may not have been able to tell his grunts about the possibility of Boeing buying McD, so he may have just told them "Trust me, we have to go Boeing". Boeing must have had hoards of accountants working on this merger well before negotiations with McD even began and definitely well before any public announcement was made. — Internet Message Header Follows — Path: news.telcel.net.ve!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!node2.frontier… Newsgroups: rec.travel.air Organization: SPC Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp236.223.mmtl.videotron.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)

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The LA Times speculates that they will keep the Douglass commercial products…Of course, if ValuJet dies (and its huge order), then the MD-95 would lose the incentive to be built. Kind of makes that AA announcement to go sole-ly Boeing a moot point, huh?

Response:

I just read a brief report that Boeing and McDonnel Douglas might be merging within the next 6 months (pending Federal Trade Commission ruling), which would leave Boeing and Airbus as the only two major manafacturers of large commercial aircraft. Does anyone have any detailed information on this, and how it might affect the aircraft market?  The information I have is somewhat vague, but appears to be true. Regards, Steve

Response:

Question:

The Star Tribune did a study on this and found: "the average ticket price at the Twin Cities airport was 36 percent higher than the national average for comparable flights. For NWA tickets, the price disparity was 38   percent. The comparable premiums in cities where Northwest also has hubs were 12 percent in Detroit and 33 percent in Memphis, Tenn. A 1993 U.S. General Accounting Office study estimated the Twin Cities hub premium at 30 percent." Full text of the article from which the above quote was taken is available at: http://www.startribune.com/stonline/html/ddd/cost16.htm (Note: It is not currently linked off of our home page. The only way to get at it is to use the full URL above — I know this is a problem, but our current site is only a transitory site.)

Response:

You think you guys have it bad?  I lived for eight years in Duluth. People living there had to drive 150 miles to your city to afford air travel.  Flying out of Duluth’s monoply market was reserved for the wealthy. Fortunately I now live in Albuquerque, which is served by about a zillion domestic carriers, including Southwest.  Low fares to just about anywhere and nicer weather. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : (Chris Kantzes) writes: : And with the state legislature and : the governer knuckling under to Northwest’s pressure, it will probably : stay that way for a while, as it looks like the hope for a new, modern : Dakota County airport with plenty of gates and runways has been put : on hold.  Minneapolis gets no peace from the roaring, old, Northwest : jets, : Well, that’s not entirely true.   What about it isn’t true?  The govnernor decided categorically to end the dual track study, which wasn’t due to be completed for a year, and decided that the current airport will be expanded.  That means no true relief for noise from jets for SW Minneapolis, plain and simple. : The bill passed by the state legislature includes some noise relief : measures for residents who live in the vicinity of MSP.  Included in : the bill are: : – a mandate to spend $185 million by 2002 on sound proofing homes and :   buildings near MSP and aquiring property around it; Great, but what about people who want to play outside during our brief summers – how can they sound-proof peoples’ yards?  And what about people who live just outside the noise zone as currently defined.  The jets don’t fly in exactly the same approach path all the time – they tend to wander quite a bit. : – a ban on a "north parallel" runway that would route traffic deeper :   into Minneapolis; This does nothing to REDUCE the current noise problems with MSP.  That just prevents future increases in noise, and probably will force the Twin Cities to re-visit the question of a new airport in the not too distant future.  Face it, MSP as an airport is woefully under-sized, with no real room to grow. : – a law requiring that all aircraft using the airport after the year :   2000 be of the newer and quieter Stage 3 variety, or be equipped :   with hush kits in the case of older aircraft. I will believe that when I see it.  Northwest was also supposed to build an aircraft service facility in return for the government subsdidies it got – guess what, the aircraft facility, if it ever gets built, will greatly reduced in size and number of jobs it generates. Also, even with the hush-kits/stage 3 engines, take-offs will show little noise reduction. : and Twin City resisdents pay through the nose for the privilege : of being a Northwest hub.  Yesterday (4/16), the Star Tribune had an : interesting article describing how bad things are.  Worth checking : it out if you can find it. : The article made it into other papers as well via AP.  To briefly : summarize, it stated that the average ticket price at MSP was : 36% higher than the national average.  Travellers paid $456 million : more than they would have at most other US airports; NW, which : operates more than 80% of the flights at MSP, got a $332 million : slice of that pie. Thanks for quoting the exact figures.  I didn’t have the newspaper handy, so I didn’t want to misquote the figures.   : NW officials dispute these findings, saying that the study that : led to them ignored the benefits of hub travel, and inaccurately : calculated costs. And yet today, 4/18, they report the largest 1st quarter earnings ever, some $60 million over the same quarter last year.  Coincidence?   "Als Ik Kan"                                Minneapolis, MN

Response:

: (Chris Kantzes) writes:

: And with the state legislature and : the governer knuckling under to Northwest’s pressure, it will probably : stay that way for a while, as it looks like the hope for a new, modern : Dakota County airport with plenty of gates and runways has been put : on hold.  Minneapolis gets no peace from the roaring, old, Northwest : jets, : Well, that’s not entirely true.   What about it isn’t true?  The govnernor decided categorically to end the dual track study, which wasn’t due to be completed for a year, and decided that the current airport will be expanded.  That means no true relief for noise from jets for SW Minneapolis, plain and simple. : The bill passed by the state legislature includes some noise relief : measures for residents who live in the vicinity of MSP.  Included in : the bill are: : – a mandate to spend $185 million by 2002 on sound proofing homes and :   buildings near MSP and aquiring property around it; Great, but what about people who want to play outside during our brief summers – how can they sound-proof peoples’ yards?  And what about people who live just outside the noise zone as currently defined.  The jets don’t fly in exactly the same approach path all the time – they tend to wander quite a bit. : – a ban on a "north parallel" runway that would route traffic deeper :   into Minneapolis; This does nothing to REDUCE the current noise problems with MSP.  That just prevents future increases in noise, and probably will force the Twin Cities to re-visit the question of a new airport in the not too distant future.  Face it, MSP as an airport is woefully under-sized, with no real room to grow. : – a law requiring that all aircraft using the airport after the year :   2000 be of the newer and quieter Stage 3 variety, or be equipped :   with hush kits in the case of older aircraft. I will believe that when I see it.  Northwest was also supposed to build an aircraft service facility in return for the government subsdidies it got – guess what, the aircraft facility, if it ever gets built, will greatly reduced in size and number of jobs it generates. Also, even with the hush-kits/stage 3 engines, take-offs will show little noise reduction. : and Twin City resisdents pay through the nose for the privilege : of being a Northwest hub.  Yesterday (4/16), the Star Tribune had an : interesting article describing how bad things are.  Worth checking : it out if you can find it. : The article made it into other papers as well via AP.  To briefly : summarize, it stated that the average ticket price at MSP was : 36% higher than the national average.  Travellers paid $456 million : more than they would have at most other US airports; NW, which : operates more than 80% of the flights at MSP, got a $332 million : slice of that pie. Thanks for quoting the exact figures.  I didn’t have the newspaper handy, so I didn’t want to misquote the figures.   : NW officials dispute these findings, saying that the study that : led to them ignored the benefits of hub travel, and inaccurately : calculated costs. And yet today, 4/18, they report the largest 1st quarter earnings ever, some $60 million over the same quarter last year.  Coincidence?    "Als Ik Kan"                                Minneapolis, MN

Response:

(Chris Kantzes) writes: And with the state legislature and the governer knuckling under to Northwest’s pressure, it will probably stay that way for a while, as it looks like the hope for a new, modern Dakota County airport with plenty of gates and runways has been put on hold.  Minneapolis gets no peace from the roaring, old, Northwest jets,

Well, that’s not entirely true.   The bill passed by the state legislature includes some noise relief measures for residents who live in the vicinity of MSP.  Included in the bill are: – a mandate to spend $185 million by 2002 on sound proofing homes and   buildings near MSP and aquiring property around it; – a ban on a "north parallel" runway that would route traffic deeper   into Minneapolis; – a law requiring that all aircraft using the airport after the year   2000 be of the newer and quieter Stage 3 variety, or be equipped   with hush kits in the case of older aircraft. and Twin City resisdents pay through the nose for the privilege of being a Northwest hub.  Yesterday (4/16), the Star Tribune had an interesting article describing how bad things are.  Worth checking it out if you can find it.

The article made it into other papers as well via AP.  To briefly summarize, it stated that the average ticket price at MSP was 36% higher than the national average.  Travellers paid $456 million more than they would have at most other US airports; NW, which operates more than 80% of the flights at MSP, got a $332 million slice of that pie. NW officials dispute these findings, saying that the study that led to them ignored the benefits of hub travel, and inaccurately calculated costs. — Jim

Response:

: Well, I’ve said it before and not everyone agrees, but from my view, : MSP is the worst big-city market in the country for fares going in or : coming out.  Northwest has "fortressed" that hub by dominating it so : much, and fares are way up there as a result (It’s cheaper now to fly : from Atlanta (once a fortress hub itself) to L.A. on a sale fare than : to Minneapolis.  Go figure).  Other airports like Denver, Charlotte, : Pittsburgh, etc., have similar levels of dominance by other carriers, : but the thing that differentiates MSP, IMHO, is that there isn’t a real : alternative within a reasonable driving distance.  I think Northwest is : all too aware of that, I’m afraid. Unfortunately, you are correct.  And with the state legislature and the governer knuckling under to Northwest’s pressure, it will probably stay that way for a while, as it looks like the hope for a new, modern Dakota County airport with plenty of gates and runways has been put on hold.  Minneapolis gets no peace from the roaring, old, Northwest jets, and Twin City resisdents pay through the nose for the privilege of being a Northwest hub.  Yesterday (4/16), the Star Tribune had an interesting article describing how bad things are.  Worth checking it out if you can find it.    "Als Ik Kan"                                Minneapolis, MN

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Summer travel this year is expensive.  I don’t think there’s an airfare war going on right now, though everybody says there is.  Let me tell you about my plight. I need to get back home to Minneapolis.  I attend Southern Cal, so I need a round-trip ticket from LAX to MSP, non-stop, for the whole summer. So I hear Northwest is having a sale; right on time.  But they quote a price of $750.00!!!  ’Scuse me?!  They then tell me the sales are for trips with a max. stay of 30 days.

*snip* Well, I’ve said it before and not everyone agrees, but from my view, MSP is the worst big-city market in the country for fares going in or coming out.  Northwest has "fortressed" that hub by dominating it so much, and fares are way up there as a result (It’s cheaper now to fly from Atlanta (once a fortress hub itself) to L.A. on a sale fare than to Minneapolis.  Go figure).  Other airports like Denver, Charlotte, Pittsburgh, etc., have similar levels of dominance by other carriers, but the thing that differentiates MSP, IMHO, is that there isn’t a real alternative within a reasonable driving distance.  I think Northwest is all too aware of that, I’m afraid. As for the sales, the airlines have learned their lesson about national fare sales at rock-bottom prices.  These days they’re very mild by comparison; if discount carriers already operate the route, in fact, a nationwide "sale" price will really be an increase (i.e. meaningless if big carriers are already matching the discounters).  I’ve gotten some extremely good fares this year, but usually they were offered on a very targeted, hit-and-run basis.   RC

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[LAX-MSP expensive ($750) on NW, $321 on Frontier]  Dru So, I have three questions: 1) Is there a summer airfare war going  Dru on, and is it to the magnitude of last year; 2) Is it me, or is  Dru anyone else wondering why the hell prices for flights like mine  Dru aren’t lower; and 3) Well, what the hell should I do? Fly someone else.  NW owns MSP, and they know it; that’s why they don’t offer special fares on flights to it (check any NW coupon, it’ll except flights to MSP & DTW, or sometimes even to anywhere in MN or MI).  Dru Meanwhile, Frontier Airlines has a stopover flight round-trip for  Dru $321.00.  Obviously a steal, but I’m brand-loyal (that’s what  Dru frequent-flier programs do to you), and I have an inclination to  Dru avoid small airlines. Frontier’s not *that* small; they fly jets, after all.  If you want there to continue to be competition in MSP, throw off your FF handcuffs and give ‘em a try. Last time I flew to a major fortress hub (CVG) was before I was a DL medallion flyer, so I flew NW via DTW instead of direct in a (successful) attempt to get NW Worldperks Preferred.  Of course, then they changed the equipment on the BOS-SEA nonstop and I decided that a connection in CVG or SLC wasn’t so bad after all… and after that NW started dismantling their BOS minihub.

Response:

Summer travel this year is expensive.  I don’t think there’s an airfare war going on right now, though everybody says there is.  Let me tell you about my plight. I need to get back home to Minneapolis.  I attend Southern Cal, so I need a round-trip ticket from LAX to MSP, non-stop, for the whole summer.  So I hear Northwest is having a sale; right on time.  But they quote a price of $750.00!!!  ’Scuse me?!  They then tell me the sales are for trips with a max. stay of 30 days. OK, I understand now.  But what the hell happened?  Last year I was in the same predicament, but my parents got tickets for approx. $350.00.   That had to be a sale, and that lasted for the entire summer.  Now, the cost for the same damn ticket has shot up 250%!!! FYI, my parents are waiting through the weekend in the off-chance Northwest announces a sale concerning trips lasting the entire summer.   Meanwhile, Frontier Airlines has a stopover flight round-trip for $321.00.  Obviously a steal, but I’m brand-loyal (that’s what frequent-flier programs do to you), and I have an inclination to avoid small airlines.  I also have a free trip through Northwest, but I want to save that something really special, like a cruise off the coast during Spring Break. So, I have three questions: 1) Is there a summer airfare war going on, and is it to the magnitude of last year; 2) Is it me, or is anyone else wondering why the hell prices for flights like mine aren’t lower; and 3) Well, what the hell should I do? Thanks in advance.                                                         -The Iconoclast This week’s quote, taken from my day planner: "I was thrown out of college for cheating on the metaphysics exam; I looked into the soul of the boy next to me."                                                         -Woody Allen

Response:

Question:

If you can’t follow that thread, I don’t know what to say. If you want to discuss the relative points about sex and running, that’s one thing, but don’t mix it up with a defense of some mindless, bigoted outburst where the poster insults Americans, and ascribes some idiotic motive to my posting.                                          Larry Mayo

Larry: This is a troll, right? You aren’t really as stupid as you’re letting on to be, right? Right? Oh, God. Mike Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Advertise your race. FTP Race Apps, FAQ   http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If you can’t follow that thread, I don’t know what to say. If you want to discuss the relative points about sex and running, that’s one thing, but don’t mix it up with a defense of some mindless, bigoted outburst where the poster insults Americans, and ascribes some idiotic motive to my posting.                                          Larry Mayo Larry: This is a troll, right? You aren’t really as stupid as you’re letting on to be, right? Right?

Well, bub, if you want to defend this guy, birds of a feather flock together. If the shoe fits, wear it.                                   Larry

Response:

: *Larry: : * : *This is a troll, right? You aren’t really as stupid as you’re letting : *on to be, right? : : Yikes.  Is this the same guy that claimed he ran with a gun and a cellular : phone?  Even I delurked to responded to that one.  Congratulations, : Larry, you’re a regular Orlando Wilson.  In the future please practice : catch and release. : : Otherwise, get some help. : : Marlon : Naaah, That wasn’t me. I run with an atomic bomb. :                                             Larry before, after. I’ve recorded my best times having sex while I run!! It helps my partner too!! john carpenter: just another Sludgerunner in space!!

Response:

*Larry: * *This is a troll, right? You aren’t really as stupid as you’re letting *on to be, right? Yikes.  Is this the same guy that claimed he ran with a gun and a cellular phone?  Even I delurked to responded to that one.  Congratulations, Larry, you’re a regular Orlando Wilson.  In the future please practice catch and release. Otherwise, get some help. Marlon

Naaah, That wasn’t me. I run with an atomic bomb.                                             Larry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :Bopped the beloved last night. Great! :This morning was my long run, 12 miles. This is the MAX for me at my :present level.  I arrived back at the house TOTALED. Then, a BIG bowl of :cereal (Raisin Bran) with sliced banannas. Wow! :OK mabey it’s not BETTER than sex, but darn close. No, stupid, there is plenty of scientific reasons why this is probably true. Number one, the production of semen very possibly requires minerals, electrolytes, and who knows what other chemicals that cause reduction of endurance.  There exist the possibility that sex temporarily alters brain chemistry, such as endorphan levels, and causes fatigue or letargy. Sex also reduces nervous tension that may contribute to athletic ability during an event. And none of this even covers the old fashioned fact that the more time you spend bopping, the less time you spend sleeping, something most people agree is good for the body.

                First of all there is no need of name calling!! But the better conclusion, regardless of the erroneous physiological logic that you make use of is that it is an individual preference! Runner’s World did an interesting article on this last summer. All sorts of athletes abstain but others indulge . . .Lynn Jennings, Karen Lee-Gartner (gold medal skier) have been quoted as having sex up to just a few minutes before the start of the race – maybe it takes off some of the tension – a relaxed runner will go faster than a slower one – In you r physiology that translates into a rigid muscle will exhaust itself faster than a relaxed one!!! DDDUUUUHHHHH!  ; ) Cheers and relax!                                                    __o       o     Tri it!  Carbon14                                        _ <_      <   You’ll like                                      __/o_     ( )/( )     /      it. . .

Response:

* * *If you can’t follow that thread, I don’t know what to say. If you want *to discuss the relative points about sex and running, that’s one thing, *but don’t mix it up with a defense of some mindless, bigoted outburst *where the poster insults Americans, and ascribes some idiotic motive *to my posting. * * *                                          Larry Mayo * *Larry: * *This is a troll, right? You aren’t really as stupid as you’re letting *on to be, right? Yikes.  Is this the same guy that claimed he ran with a gun and a cellular phone?  Even I delurked to responded to that one.  Congratulations, Larry, you’re a regular Orlando Wilson.  In the future please practice catch and release. Otherwise, get some help. Marlon * *Right? * *Oh, God. * * *Mike Tennent *WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar *200+ listings. Advertise your race. FTP Race Apps, FAQ   *http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html *

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If you can’t follow that thread, I don’t know what to say. If you want to discuss the relative points about sex and running, that’s one thing, but don’t mix it up with a defense of some mindless, bigoted outburst where the poster insults Americans, and ascribes some idiotic motive to my posting.                                          Larry Mayo Larry: This is a troll, right? You aren’t really as stupid as you’re letting on to be, right? Right? Oh, God. Mike Tennent

Did he just catch something? Too late…you’re hooked! -Warren

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Larry: You really shouldn’t call someone stupid simply because they disagree with something you said – particularly when you don’t give any facts to back up your claims. Again, how does one dredge up the argument of Puritan morality being the reason for my original response? A response that has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY SCIENTIFIC DEBATE ON THE SUBJECT. It is indeed stupid. Re read the posting.                                 Larry Mayo Uh, Larry why don’t YOU go back and read MY response. I didn’t mention Puritan morality, didn’t intend to. I’m Unitarian. (I know – that doesn’t mean a thing to you.) I (and all the others) attacked your total lack of facts – your use of so many qualifiers, and your calling someone stupid who wrote a reasonable response to your first post.

Reasonable!!?  You call that kind of half-baked bigotry reasonable? I know why your supporting that guy, you must be a fascist, and are trying to pawn your racial superiority theories on the rest of us. Yea, yea, thats it. I know you Americans are all set on your Nazi agenda. It’s all clear to me now. (temporary ) Now, look at the above. If you were attempting to make a statement about the often poor state of scientific research, and I countered with that statement, I really suspect that you would say to yourself: "This guy is stu (pendous? No, not exactly), stu (pefying? Uh, no). If you can’t follow that thread, I don’t know what to say. If you want to discuss the relative points about sex and running, that’s one thing, but don’t mix it up with a defense of some mindless, bigoted outburst where the poster insults Americans, and ascribes some idiotic motive to my posting.                                           Larry Mayo

Response:

There are also documented cases of world records being set shortly after sex.  It helps to relax and can be fun.  You should try it sometime.

As Casey Stengal said, "It ain’t sex that’s killing these guys, it’s staying out all night looking for it."

Response:

A client of mine once told me (and I agree with him) that there are few things in the world that are as overrated as a good lay and there are few things in the world that are as underrated as taking a good shit. This may also apply in the context of this thread.

Response:

: and causes fatigue or letargy. Sex also reduces nervous tension that : may contribute to athletic ability during an event. Umm. As an Englishman once remarked to me…. oh balls! There are too many "could be" statements in here, to begin with. Other than the pseudo- scientific vaporings of the Kellogg-Graham crowd, there has never, ever been the slightest suggestion that there were any benefits to sexual frustration. Not for athletic performance, not for artistic creativity,

Um, don’t think so. Check out Runners World within the last year. In an articlee "Not Tonight, Honey, I Have a 10k Tomorrow" Scientific research comes down on both sides of the issue, and so do athletes. The article is mostly fluff, but provide a few points. One of the most interesting is that sex causes many alterations to body chemistry similar to strenuous physical activity. It it unreasonable to posit that sex depletes body chemistry necessary for endurance?   Yes, very possibly. As for the relaxation theory accounting for better performance. That possibly is an anomaly caused by individual responses. My original thesis is that there are far too many "authorities" who are falling all over themselves to poo poo the sex/activity link when there has been very little comprehensive research done that takes all variables into account. There HAS been extensive research on sex and human response, that gives plenty of evidence that there is SOME similarity between the affects of sex, and exercise. Whether that causes poorer athletic performance or not, is a question for further research.                                        Larry Mayo

Response:

No, stupid, there is plenty of scientific reasons why this is probably true. Number one, the production of semen very possibly requires minerals, electrolytes, and who knows what other chemicals that cause reduction of endurance.  There exist the possibility that sex temporarily alters brain chemistry, such as endorphan levels, and causes fatigue or letargy. Sex also reduces nervous tension that may contribute to athletic ability during an event. And none of this even covers the old fashioned fact that the more time you spend bopping, the less time you spend sleeping, something most people agree is good for the body.                                     Larry Mayo

Larry: You really shouldn’t call someone stupid simply because they disagree with something you said – particularly when you don’t give any facts to back up your claims. Let’s examine what you said – :I really laugh when I note that modern science is once again :in denial of something that everyone has known since the :dawn of history,

" …everyone has known since the dawn of history… ?"  Oh? Everyone at the dawn of history thought that the sun revolved around the earth – which was flat. We need a bit more than that – which you don’t offer. Now let’s look at all the qualifiers you put in, not facts: there is plenty of scientific reasons why this is probably true. production of semen very possibly requires There exist the possibility that nervous tension that  may contribute to athletic ability

….probably true… possibly requires…exists the possibility… may contribute… As the old commecial once said "Where’s the beef?" If you’ve got something to contribute other than speculation and half-cocked psuedo-science- let’s see it. Meanwhile, check the mirror before calling someone else stupid. Mike Tennent WebRunner Running Page — Southeast USA Race Calendar 200+ listings. Advertise your race. FTP Race Apps, FAQ   http://www.webrunner.com/webrun/running/running.html

Response:

Larry: You really shouldn’t call someone stupid simply because they disagree with something you said – particularly when you don’t give any facts to back up your claims.

Again, how does one dredge up the argument of Puritan morality being the reason for my original response? A response that has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY SCIENTIFIC DEBATE ON THE SUBJECT. It is indeed stupid. Re read the posting.                                  Larry Mayo

Response:

[...does sex before a race reduce performance?...] No, stupid, Since you called him ’stupid,’ let’s look at how good your arguments are.

The point of the whole thing is not a scientific debate. The ditribe directed at me was an accusation of promulgating some sort of puritan morality, and was indeed stupid.                                         Larry Mayo

Response:

writes: Larry: You really shouldn’t call someone stupid simply because they disagree with something you said – particularly when you don’t give any facts to back up your claims. Again, how does one dredge up the argument of Puritan morality being the reason for my original response? A response that has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY SCIENTIFIC DEBATE ON THE SUBJECT. It is indeed stupid. Re read the posting.                                 Larry Mayo

Uh, Larry why don’t YOU go back and read MY response. I didn’t mention Puritan morality, didn’t intend to. I’m Unitarian. (I know – that doesn’t mean a thing to you.) I (and all the others) attacked your total lack of facts – your use of so many qualifiers, and your calling someone stupid who wrote a reasonable response to your first post. Now, if you don’t want to make everybody’s kill file – and you’re about to make mine – WISE UP! If you’ve got some facts to offer to back up your claim – let’s see ‘em. Don’t resort to name calling. Mike Tennent

Response:

There are also documented cases of world records being set shortly after sex.  It helps to relax and can be fun.  You should try it sometime.

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: No, stupid, there is plenty of scientific reasons why this is probably : true. Number one, the production of semen very possibly requires : minerals, electrolytes, and who knows what other chemicals that : cause reduction of endurance.  There exist the possibility that : sex temporarily alters brain chemistry, such as endorphan levels, : and causes fatigue or letargy. Sex also reduces nervous tension that : may contribute to athletic ability during an event. Umm. As an Englishman once remarked to me…. oh balls! There are too many "could be" statements in here, to begin with. Other than the pseudo- scientific vaporings of the Kellogg-Graham crowd, there has never, ever been the slightest suggestion that there were any benefits to sexual frustration. Not for athletic performance, not for artistic creativity, not nothing, not nohow. Could we, PLEASE!!! bury this neurotic, unscientific, unscriptural, untheological, annoying little offshoot of American culture? It has done no good, and much harm. It is about as sound as the old yoghurt enema gag. It flourished back when endurance athletes were routinely given semi-lethal doses of laxatives to avoid the unspecified evils of constipation. : even covers the old fashioned fact that the more time you spend : bopping, the less time you spend sleeping, something most people : agree is good for the body. "It ain’t sex that ruins these guys, it’s running around all night looking for it. Robert "dead rugby forward from the frozen North" MacMillan

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[...does sex before a race reduce performance?...] No, stupid,

Since you called him ’stupid,’ let’s look at how good your arguments are. there is plenty of scientific reasons why this is probably true.

Note that none of the ‘reasons’ you give below are what I would call ’scientifically’ proven.  Rather, they are conjectures on your part. Number one, the production of semen very possibly requires minerals, electrolytes, and who knows what other chemicals that cause reduction of endurance.

The way I understand it, the semen is already there in the prostate, and is not produced suddenly during ejaculation.  In effect, your body (if you are a male) is always producing semen.  And I would think that the resources required to produce the relatively small amount of semen in a male’s body shouldn’t be too taxing.  There exist the possibility that sex temporarily alters brain chemistry, such as endorphan levels, and causes fatigue or letargy.

There also exists the possibility that it causes the brain chemistry to be altered in a way the *reduces* fatigue or lethargy.  There also exists the possibility that it does nothing to affect the brain chemistry.  Heck, there’s also the possibility that it make hair grow on the palm of your hand, or it makes you crave a cigarrette. Sex also reduces nervous tension that may contribute to athletic ability during an event.

Again, this  could be both beneficial or detrimental.  What about the person that gets so nervous before a big event that they get an  upset stomach?  Maybe a little sex would calm their nerves. And none of this even covers the old fashioned fact that the more time you spend bopping, the less time you spend sleeping, something most people agree is good for the body.

Why don’t you go to bed an hour earlier, so that sex doesn’t interfere with sleep?   There was a thread on rec.sport.triathlon about how some people have difficulty sleeping before a big race.  Maybe a little sex would calm you down enough to take the edge off, and would allow you to get a decent night’s sleep.  It might also help you remember that there might be more important things in life besides racing, such as the love you share with your mate, and that even if you do poorly, you’ll have someone to come home to who accepts you the way you are.                                      Larry Mayo

Dave Wiesenhahn     |  ’Cause I’m living on things that excite me IDA                 |              Be it pastry, lobster, or love Alexandria, VA      |                                        J.B.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :Bopped the beloved last night. Great! :This morning was my long run, 12 miles. This is the MAX for me at my :present level.  I arrived back at the house TOTALED. Then, a BIG bowl of :cereal (Raisin Bran) with sliced banannas. Wow! :OK mabey it’s not BETTER than sex, but darn close. : :I really laugh when I note that modern science is once again :in denial of something that everyone has known since the :dawn of history, namely that sex detracts from the performance f male athletes. Even the ancient Greeks and Romans knew this, :but we still can’t seem to figure it out. I remember, years :                              Larry Mayo If this is meant seriously, it is just another example of how very much alive puritanism still is in the USofA. The statement Larry claims "everyone has known since the dawn of history" is just another cloak the thesis "Sex is bad for you, you’d be work!" takes on. Common sense in the not-so-puritanic sporting world is the following: Not making love is detrimental to athletic performance, but the search for a partner (ie spending the evening before the race in smoky bars or such). The fact the team sport athletes have to kept behind bar and lock in before important meets says more about the group dynamics of team sports than about anything else! Ulrich

No, stupid, there is plenty of scientific reasons why this is probably true. Number one, the production of semen very possibly requires minerals, electrolytes, and who knows what other chemicals that cause reduction of endurance.  There exist the possibility that sex temporarily alters brain chemistry, such as endorphan levels, and causes fatigue or letargy. Sex also reduces nervous tension that may contribute to athletic ability during an event. And none of this even covers the old fashioned fact that the more time you spend bopping, the less time you spend sleeping, something most people agree is good for the body.                                      Larry Mayo

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:Bopped the beloved last night. Great! :This morning was my long run, 12 miles. This is the MAX for me at my :present level.  I arrived back at the house TOTALED. Then, a BIG bowl of :cereal (Raisin Bran) with sliced banannas. Wow! :OK mabey it’s not BETTER than sex, but darn close. : :I really laugh when I note that modern science is once again :in denial of something that everyone has known since the :dawn of history, namely that sex detracts from the performance f male athletes. Even the ancient Greeks and Romans knew this, :but we still can’t seem to figure it out. I remember, years :                              Larry Mayo If this is meant seriously, it is just another example of how very much alive puritanism still is in the USofA. The statement Larry claims "everyone has known since the dawn of history" is just another cloak the thesis "Sex is bad for you, you’d be work!" takes on. Common sense in the not-so-puritanic sporting world is the following: Not making love is detrimental to athletic performance, but the search for a partner (ie spending the evening before the race in smoky bars or such). The fact the team sport athletes have to kept behind bar and lock in before important meets says more about the group dynamics of team sports than about anything else! Ulrich —                             Ulrich Porsch             Wer spricht vom Siegen, "Ubersteh’n ist alles  

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I really laugh when I note that modern science is once again in denial of something that everyone has known since the dawn of history, namely that sex detracts from the performance of male athletes. <snip                              Larry Mayo

Larry and others, If I have to lose a few seconds(hell, minutes), then so be it.     It’s just the price we males have to pay. Kyle

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Bopped the beloved last night. Great! This morning was my long run, 12 miles. This is the MAX for me at my present level.  I arrived back at the house TOTALED. Then, a BIG bowl of cereal (Raisin Bran) with sliced banannas. Wow! OK mabey it’s not BETTER than sex, but darn close. Dennis

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Bopped the beloved last night. Great! This morning was my long run, 12 miles. This is the MAX for me at my present level.  I arrived back at the house TOTALED. Then, a BIG bowl of cereal (Raisin Bran) with sliced banannas. Wow! OK mabey it’s not BETTER than sex, but darn close.

I really laugh when I note that modern science is once again in denial of something that everyone has known since the dawn of history, namely that sex detracts from the performance of male athletes. Even the ancient Greeks and Romans knew this, but we still can’t seem to figure it out. I remember, years ago, when we were told that it was impossible to build up a tolerance to alcohol.    Funny thing, however, that everybody always seemed to note that those who never drank were always lying under the table after a couple of drinks, while the veteran guzzlers were laughing and downing their 20th one.    Lo and behold, science finally found the enzyme responsible for this in the stomach of heavy drinkers, and admitted the truth after all. I suspect that science will eventually stumble on the reason for the sex phenomena.                               Larry Mayo

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Bopped the beloved last night. Great! This morning was my long run, 12 miles. This is the MAX for me at my present level.  I arrived back at the house TOTALED. Then, a BIG bowl of

Is this your standard taper routine before races as well??  Do you use a HR monitor, and what kind of splits are you aiming for??? Rob Ridley, Cochrane, Alberta     ***** Support your right to Arm Bears *****  

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Question:

I have MCI at home and am registered with american airlines to get mileage for every long distance dollar spent. Now , my question is if I get an American airlines Citibank VISA/MC can i accumulate miles on the same account ( that is my MCI AAdvantage number) for every dollar spent on my credit card?? -Rajeev

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| I have MCI at home and am registered with american airlines to | get mileage for every long distance dollar spent. Now , my | question is if I get an American airlines Citibank VISA/MC | can i accumulate miles on the same account ( that is my MCI | AAdvantage number) for every dollar spent on my credit card?? | | -Rajeev Yes.  This is precisely what I do.  In fact, it gets better than that.  You can ask MCI to automatically charge each month’s phone bill to your credit card, and if the credit card is that same CitiBank/Aadvantage card, you will get an extra mile for your phone calls! (Actually, it works out to slightly more.  You get MCI miles (5 mile per dollar) only for the phone calls, but you get Citibank miles for the total charge, which includes tax as well.) –Robert Book   a.k.a. The person accounting hope didn’t exist when marketing   came up with the ‘frequent flier program.’

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