Question:

I am going to form a limited partnership, called U-Are-Stuck Ltd.,and invite all of you into this bonanza.  I, of course, will be the general partner – this way as limited partners you guys can limit you liability to the generous amount you have contributed. Please let me know how much you want to contribute as your share – please limited to $10,000 each or $20,000 joint – no marriage penalty here.

I’m going to go in with this Nigerian friend of mine.  Please let me know your account information and I’ll just get the money wired into it directly! Deborah Stevenson

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to form a limited partnership, called U-Are-Stuck Ltd.,and invite all of you into this bonanza.  I, of course, will be the general partner – this way as limited partners you guys can limit you liability to the generous amount you have contributed. Please let me know how much you want to contribute as your share – please limited to $10,000 each or $20,000 joint – no marriage penalty here. I’m going to go in with this Nigerian friend of mine.  Please let me know your account information and I’ll just get the money wired into it directly! Deborah Stevenson

Good answer Deborah  -  of course if you try to draw out over $5 from my account you would lose. John

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John Actually, John. You should do the right thing and donate this money to charity. Just contact me and I will begin the steps to make sure that the money you forward to me will reach those it can most benefit. Thank you in advance for your donation (contact your tax consultant for the legalities of deducting this from your reported income). AMOE-ternally yours, alanama — Alana

Actuallyl Alana I have considered all the offers from all my friends on this board and come to my decision. I am going to form a limited partnership, called U-Are-Stuck Ltd.,and invite all of you into this bonanza.  I, of course, will be the general partner – this way as limited partners you guys can limit you liability to the generous amount you have contributed. I plan on asking Richard, with his legal background, to become our attorney, pro-bono of course.  My background, years ago, was accounting so I still remember some of the Enron type tricks so you don’t have to worry about any tax liaibility on your profits – in fact you don’t have to worry about profits.  I know some of you rich Ebayers could use the capital loss I plan on. Please let me know how much you want to contribute as your share – please limited to $10,000 each or $20,000 joint – no marriage penalty here. Alana a ?????  - what is "reported income" – is that that funny figure at the bottom of a Sch. C ????? John

Response:

Hmmm….maybe John should donate his money to my daughter and son-in-law, who are the victims of a teenaged red-light running idiot, and who are being offered fifty cents as the value of their well-maintained, paid-for car. Maybe a trip to www.clarkhoward.com and posting in the forums there may yeild some good advice. According to Clark Howard, the first offer from the insurance is rarely the last, but so many people take it they make out quite well with the strategy.

Thanks…but they’ve done all that and more. They’ve contacted attorneys, and got independent appraisals – and found out that they’ve been offered a very fair amount. It’s just that it’s a financial loss for them, because the amount they’ll get will not buy a decent replacement of the same quality of their paid-for car….and since the other car isn’t paid for, they’re SOL. Now…if she could claim an INJURY, it’d be another story – but who wants to wish that?   Bumps, bruises, contusions, cuts, aches, and pains aren’t (luckily) permanent. I guess the only good thing is that I have an extra car they can borrow, while they pay off the newer car and save to replace Harvey. What’s **really** odd?   Harvey was parked in a lot not far from where that Edmunds character (wanted for questioning in the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping) dumped the license plates from the green Saturn.  We keep wondering if we’ll hear Edmunds caught in a Saturn with Utah 530 HRV plates Kris

Response:

Hmmm….maybe John should donate his money to my daughter and son-in-law, who are the victims of a teenaged red-light running idiot, and who are being offered fifty cents as the value of their well-maintained, paid-for car.

Maybe a trip to www.clarkhoward.com and posting in the forums there may yeild some good advice. According to Clark Howard, the first offer from the insurance is rarely the last, but so many people take it they make out quite well with the strategy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John Actually, John. You should do the right thing and donate this money to charity. Just contact me and I will begin the steps to make sure that the money you forward to me will reach those it can most benefit. Thank you in advance for your donation (contact your tax consultant for the legalities of deducting this from your reported income). AMOE-ternally yours, alanama — Alana

Hmmm….maybe John should donate his money to my daughter and son-in-law, who are the victims of a teenaged red-light running idiot, and who are being offered fifty cents as the value of their well-maintained, paid-for car. Or, maybe John can just toss in the fifty cents and they can be done with the insurance company Kris You only get money if you’re injured, not when you’re financially crippled due to someone else’s stupidity.

Response:

Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John

Actually, John. You should do the right thing and donate this money to charity. Just contact me and I will begin the steps to make sure that the money you forward to me will reach those it can most benefit. Thank you in advance for your donation (contact your tax consultant for the legalities of deducting this from your reported income). AMOE-ternally yours, alanama — Alana "Success is going from one failure to the next without a loss of enthusiasm." —Winston Churchill

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John John, don’t bother to send him your money, I’ll guarantee you a 60% return per month.  It might be reduced slightly by my 100 point front end commission on the investment, but you’d still make at least as much with me as you would with the other guy. Richard Ward John, don’t listen to Richard. Send me your money, and I’ll just screw you right away.   No annoying waiting to get your returns, no annoying emails to anyone.   When I steal your money, I’ll be honest about it. Kris Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John

x Just accept all offers. Then if you have any money left over please send it to me. PJ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John John, don’t bother to send him your money, I’ll guarantee you a 60% return per month.  It might be reduced slightly by my 100 point front end commission on the investment, but you’d still make at least as much with me as you would with the other guy. Richard Ward John, don’t listen to Richard. Send me your money, and I’ll just screw you right away.   No annoying waiting to get your returns, no annoying emails to anyone.   When I steal your money, I’ll be honest about it. Kris Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John

Pssst, John…. The eighth word over is a promise Kris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John John, don’t bother to send him your money, I’ll guarantee you a 60% return per month.  It might be reduced slightly by my 100 point front end commission on the investment, but you’d still make at least as much with me as you would with the other guy. Richard Ward

John, don’t listen to Richard. Send me your money, and I’ll just screw you right away.   No annoying waiting to get your returns, no annoying emails to anyone.   When I steal your money, I’ll be honest about it. Kris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John John, don’t bother to send him your money, I’ll guarantee you a 60% return per month.  It might be reduced slightly by my 100 point front end commission on the investment, but you’d still make at least as much with me as you would with the other guy. Richard Ward John, don’t listen to Richard. Send me your money, and I’ll just screw you right away.   No annoying waiting to get your returns, no annoying emails to anyone.   When I steal your money, I’ll be honest about it. Kris

Any more bids before I make my final decision????? John

Response:

Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John

Response:

Well Ebay has been fun and a little bit profitable BUT now that I see that I can make 50% a month and sit on my behind i just have to go for it. You slaves to the computer keep on plugging while I am in Vegas enjoying my 50% per month John

John, don’t bother to send him your money, I’ll guarantee you a 60% return per month.  It might be reduced slightly by my 100 point front end commission on the investment, but you’d still make at least as much with me as you would with the other guy. Richard Ward

Response:

Question:

That’s AUD, so double it for USD. — Ken Russell Sydney

| Is this $3.6 billion USD or Austrailian Dollars? | |

| | HIH liquidator takes aim at Andersen | By Elisabeth Sexton | April 17 2002 | | The partners of besieged accounting firm Andersen face the prospect of a | hefty damages suit after the Federal Court yesterday forced the firm to hand | over details of its partners, finances and insurance cover since 1996. | | The court has also ordered the managing partner, Garry Hounsell, to answer | questions from the HIH liquidator, Tony McGrath of KPMG.  Mr McGrath said | yesterday he had gone to court "to enable an understanding of the capacity | of Andersen to meet any claims that the liquidators of the HIH companies may | have against it". | | Andersen was the longstanding auditor of both HIH and the insurer it took | over in 1999, FAI.  The combined group collapsed in March 2001 with a | deficiency now estimated by Mr McGrath at between $3.6 billion and $5.3 | billion. Mr McGrath has said previously he was examining the prospects of | suing all the individuals who were partners of Andersen when the firm | audited financial statements of HIH and FAI. | | The HIH Royal Commission has heard evidence that the 1998 FAI accounts, and | the 1999 and 2000 HIH accounts, were deliberately manipulated. | | Counsel assisting the commission, Richard White SC, claimed that the window | dressing allowed FAI to report a profit of $9 million in 1998, instead of a | loss of $49 million, and HIH to report profits of $102 million in 1999 and | $62 million in 2000 instead of a profit of $10 million a loss of $41 million | respectively.  Earlier this month, Mr McGrath summarised these financial | statements as containing "accounting deceptions".  The court ordered | Andersen to give Mr McGrath "all deeds, agreements, articles of partnership, | or like instruments" relating to the partnership since July 1, 1996. | | It also ordered disclosure of details of insurance policies covering | Andersen’s audits of HIH and FAI, and any professional advice given to the | insurers, including "the amount of insurance cover that might be available | … in respect of any claim by any of the HIH companies in relation to the | audit or the professional advice". | | Registrar Geoff Segal ordered yesterday that the information handed over | remain confidential to the parties. | | At the first formal creditors meeting on April 3, Mr McGrath said potential | targets for damages arising from HIH’s "collapse of monumental proportions" | included directors, officers, auditors, actuaries, advisers, reinsurers, | reinsurance brokers and regulators.  "There are clearly claims that we will | obviously have," Mr McGrath told the meeting, adding that he would not | launch any action without express creditor approval. | | The orders for Andersen to provide information are believed to be the first | court action Mr McGrath has taken relating to damages actions. They follow | the splitting of the Andersen partnerships around the world following the | devastating consequences of its audit of collapsed US energy trading giant | Enron. | | Asked on April 3 whether the proposed takeover of Andersen’s Australian | operation by its rival Ernst & Young would affect any damages suits, Mr | McGrath said as he would be targeting individual partners, a change in the | ownership would have little effect. | | Still, he may have acted now to ensure he has all the information he needs | before Andersen disappears as an entity. | | | | | |

Response:

OOPS… I just got out of bed, that’s the wrong way round:-)  3.6 bil AUD = app 1.8 bil USD — Ken Russell Sydney

| That’s AUD, so double it for USD. | | — | Ken Russell | Sydney | | | | Is this $3.6 billion USD or Austrailian Dollars? | | | |

| | | | HIH liquidator takes aim at Andersen | | By Elisabeth Sexton | | April 17 2002 | | | | The partners of besieged accounting firm Andersen face the prospect of a | | hefty damages suit after the Federal Court yesterday forced the firm to | hand | | over details of its partners, finances and insurance cover since 1996. | | | | The court has also ordered the managing partner, Garry Hounsell, to | answer | | questions from the HIH liquidator, Tony McGrath of KPMG.  Mr McGrath | said | | yesterday he had gone to court "to enable an understanding of the | capacity | | of Andersen to meet any claims that the liquidators of the HIH companies | may | | have against it". | | | | Andersen was the longstanding auditor of both HIH and the insurer it | took | | over in 1999, FAI.  The combined group collapsed in March 2001 with a | | deficiency now estimated by Mr McGrath at between $3.6 billion and $5.3 | | billion. Mr McGrath has said previously he was examining the prospects | of | | suing all the individuals who were partners of Andersen when the firm | | audited financial statements of HIH and FAI. | | | | The HIH Royal Commission has heard evidence that the 1998 FAI accounts, | and | | the 1999 and 2000 HIH accounts, were deliberately manipulated. | | | | Counsel assisting the commission, Richard White SC, claimed that the | window | | dressing allowed FAI to report a profit of $9 million in 1998, instead | of a | | loss of $49 million, and HIH to report profits of $102 million in 1999 | and | | $62 million in 2000 instead of a profit of $10 million a loss of $41 | million | | respectively.  Earlier this month, Mr McGrath summarised these financial | | statements as containing "accounting deceptions".  The court ordered | | Andersen to give Mr McGrath "all deeds, agreements, articles of | partnership, | | or like instruments" relating to the partnership since July 1, 1996. | | | | It also ordered disclosure of details of insurance policies covering | | Andersen’s audits of HIH and FAI, and any professional advice given to | the | | insurers, including "the amount of insurance cover that might be | available | | … in respect of any claim by any of the HIH companies in relation to | the | | audit or the professional advice". | | | | Registrar Geoff Segal ordered yesterday that the information handed over | | remain confidential to the parties. | | | | At the first formal creditors meeting on April 3, Mr McGrath said | potential | | targets for damages arising from HIH’s "collapse of monumental | proportions" | | included directors, officers, auditors, actuaries, advisers, reinsurers, | | reinsurance brokers and regulators.  "There are clearly claims that we | will | | obviously have," Mr McGrath told the meeting, adding that he would not | | launch any action without express creditor approval. | | | | The orders for Andersen to provide information are believed to be the | first | | court action Mr McGrath has taken relating to damages actions. They | follow | | the splitting of the Andersen partnerships around the world following | the | | devastating consequences of its audit of collapsed US energy trading | giant | | Enron. | | | | Asked on April 3 whether the proposed takeover of Andersen’s Australian | | operation by its rival Ernst & Young would affect any damages suits, Mr | | McGrath said as he would be targeting individual partners, a change in | the | | ownership would have little effect. | | | | Still, he may have acted now to ensure he has all the information he | needs | | before Andersen disappears as an entity. | | | | | | | | | | | | | |

Response:

HIH liquidator takes aim at Andersen By Elisabeth Sexton April 17 2002 The partners of besieged accounting firm Andersen face the prospect of a hefty damages suit after the Federal Court yesterday forced the firm to hand over details of its partners, finances and insurance cover since 1996. The court has also ordered the managing partner, Garry Hounsell, to answer questions from the HIH liquidator, Tony McGrath of KPMG.  Mr McGrath said yesterday he had gone to court "to enable an understanding of the capacity of Andersen to meet any claims that the liquidators of the HIH companies may have against it". Andersen was the longstanding auditor of both HIH and the insurer it took over in 1999, FAI.  The combined group collapsed in March 2001 with a deficiency now estimated by Mr McGrath at between $3.6 billion and $5.3 billion. Mr McGrath has said previously he was examining the prospects of suing all the individuals who were partners of Andersen when the firm audited financial statements of HIH and FAI. The HIH Royal Commission has heard evidence that the 1998 FAI accounts, and the 1999 and 2000 HIH accounts, were deliberately manipulated. Counsel assisting the commission, Richard White SC, claimed that the window dressing allowed FAI to report a profit of $9 million in 1998, instead of a loss of $49 million, and HIH to report profits of $102 million in 1999 and $62 million in 2000 instead of a profit of $10 million a loss of $41 million respectively.  Earlier this month, Mr McGrath summarised these financial statements as containing "accounting deceptions".  The court ordered Andersen to give Mr McGrath "all deeds, agreements, articles of partnership, or like instruments" relating to the partnership since July 1, 1996. It also ordered disclosure of details of insurance policies covering Andersen’s audits of HIH and FAI, and any professional advice given to the insurers, including "the amount of insurance cover that might be available … in respect of any claim by any of the HIH companies in relation to the audit or the professional advice". Registrar Geoff Segal ordered yesterday that the information handed over remain confidential to the parties. At the first formal creditors meeting on April 3, Mr McGrath said potential targets for damages arising from HIH’s "collapse of monumental proportions" included directors, officers, auditors, actuaries, advisers, reinsurers, reinsurance brokers and regulators.  "There are clearly claims that we will obviously have," Mr McGrath told the meeting, adding that he would not launch any action without express creditor approval. The orders for Andersen to provide information are believed to be the first court action Mr McGrath has taken relating to damages actions. They follow the splitting of the Andersen partnerships around the world following the devastating consequences of its audit of collapsed US energy trading giant Enron. Asked on April 3 whether the proposed takeover of Andersen’s Australian operation by its rival Ernst & Young would affect any damages suits, Mr McGrath said as he would be targeting individual partners, a change in the ownership would have little effect. Still, he may have acted now to ensure he has all the information he needs before Andersen disappears as an entity.

Response:

Is this $3.6 billion USD or Austrailian Dollars? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HIH liquidator takes aim at Andersen By Elisabeth Sexton April 17 2002 The partners of besieged accounting firm Andersen face the prospect of a hefty damages suit after the Federal Court yesterday forced the firm to hand over details of its partners, finances and insurance cover since 1996. The court has also ordered the managing partner, Garry Hounsell, to answer questions from the HIH liquidator, Tony McGrath of KPMG.  Mr McGrath said yesterday he had gone to court "to enable an understanding of the capacity of Andersen to meet any claims that the liquidators of the HIH companies may have against it". Andersen was the longstanding auditor of both HIH and the insurer it took over in 1999, FAI.  The combined group collapsed in March 2001 with a deficiency now estimated by Mr McGrath at between $3.6 billion and $5.3 billion. Mr McGrath has said previously he was examining the prospects of suing all the individuals who were partners of Andersen when the firm audited financial statements of HIH and FAI. The HIH Royal Commission has heard evidence that the 1998 FAI accounts, and the 1999 and 2000 HIH accounts, were deliberately manipulated. Counsel assisting the commission, Richard White SC, claimed that the window dressing allowed FAI to report a profit of $9 million in 1998, instead of a loss of $49 million, and HIH to report profits of $102 million in 1999 and $62 million in 2000 instead of a profit of $10 million a loss of $41 million respectively.  Earlier this month, Mr McGrath summarised these financial statements as containing "accounting deceptions".  The court ordered Andersen to give Mr McGrath "all deeds, agreements, articles of partnership, or like instruments" relating to the partnership since July 1, 1996. It also ordered disclosure of details of insurance policies covering Andersen’s audits of HIH and FAI, and any professional advice given to the insurers, including "the amount of insurance cover that might be available … in respect of any claim by any of the HIH companies in relation to the audit or the professional advice". Registrar Geoff Segal ordered yesterday that the information handed over remain confidential to the parties. At the first formal creditors meeting on April 3, Mr McGrath said potential targets for damages arising from HIH’s "collapse of monumental proportions" included directors, officers, auditors, actuaries, advisers, reinsurers, reinsurance brokers and regulators.  "There are clearly claims that we will obviously have," Mr McGrath told the meeting, adding that he would not launch any action without express creditor approval. The orders for Andersen to provide information are believed to be the first court action Mr McGrath has taken relating to damages actions. They follow the splitting of the Andersen partnerships around the world following the devastating consequences of its audit of collapsed US energy trading giant Enron. Asked on April 3 whether the proposed takeover of Andersen’s Australian operation by its rival Ernst & Young would affect any damages suits, Mr McGrath said as he would be targeting individual partners, a change in the ownership would have little effect. Still, he may have acted now to ensure he has all the information he needs before Andersen disappears as an entity.

Response:

Question:

Straight answer:  you can cancel any bids in your own auctions (and you don’t even need a reason).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s just say that I am in the business of selling a very "specific" type of accounting package on Ebay.  By specific I mean something made for a very specific industry, like carpentry.  I only have about 2-3 competitors on Ebay and I know who they are (our ads are very similar and show up in similar places).  No problem, competition is good. Anyway, the weird thing is that my competitor has just created a new username on Ebay and has bid on one of my products. How do I know it is him/her?  Let’s just say the guy is a moron and used a similar alias as well as the same town/location which just so happens to be a very small town in the midwest.  Trust me, it’s him…the account he created is less that 3 days old and he just so happens to be interested in this very rare (and expensive) program. My question, can I refuse to sell?

Response:

Straight answer:  you can cancel any bids in your own auctions (and you don’t even need a reason).

And then you can block the bidder. Ben — I’m not just a number.  To many, I’m known as a string…

Response:

and then report him to Ebay along with his other id for Auction interference. HE may also be emailing (using Ebay’s email feature) your bidders as well to have them retract or bid on his own auctions. Suggest watching your auctions carefully and take note of any "bid retractions".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Straight answer:  you can cancel any bids in your own auctions (and you don’t even need a reason). And then you can block the bidder. Ben — I’m not just a number.  To many, I’m known as a string…

Response:

Why is this auction interference?  Maybe he wants to look at the actual software.  Large corps buy each other’s products all the time.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and then report him to Ebay along with his other id for Auction interference. HE may also be emailing (using Ebay’s email feature) your bidders as well to have them retract or bid on his own auctions. Suggest watching your auctions carefully and take note of any "bid retractions". Straight answer:  you can cancel any bids in your own auctions (and you don’t even need a reason). And then you can block the bidder. Ben — I’m not just a number.  To many, I’m known as a string…

Response:

My question, can I refuse to sell?

Cancel the bid –  http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?CancelBidShow Block the bidder – http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?bidderblocklogin

Response:

Let’s just say that I am in the business of selling a very "specific" type of accounting package on Ebay.  By specific I mean something made for a very specific industry, like carpentry.  I only have about 2-3 competitors on Ebay and I know who they are (our ads are very similar and show up in similar places).  No problem, competition is good. Anyway, the weird thing is that my competitor has just created a new username on Ebay and has bid on one of my products. How do I know it is him/her?  Let’s just say the guy is a moron and used a similar alias as well as the same town/location which just so happens to be a very small town in the midwest.  Trust me, it’s him…the account he created is less that 3 days old and he just so happens to be interested in this very rare (and expensive) program. My question, can I refuse to sell?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Let’s just say that I am in the business of selling a very "specific" type of accounting package on Ebay.  By specific I mean something made for a very specific industry, like carpentry.  I only have about 2-3 competitors on Ebay and I know who they are (our ads are very similar and show up in similar places).  No problem, competition is good. Anyway, the weird thing is that my competitor has just created a new username on Ebay and has bid on one of my products. How do I know it is him/her?  Let’s just say the guy is a moron and used a similar alias as well as the same town/location which just so happens to be a very small town in the midwest.  Trust me, it’s him…the account he created is less that 3 days old and he just so happens to be interested in this very rare (and expensive) program. My question, can I refuse to sell?

I am afraid it is a ploy to get me negative feedback (since we are competitors).

Response:

Question:

Gentlemen, Thanks for all the input. In a follow up article in the st.pete times on March 8 the head of the air traffic controller’s union in Tampa said the traffic alert occured 15 seconds before the impact, not 30. He gave a scathing assessment of the airforce investigation. Also, the lawyer for Jacques family was outraged at the air force report. Unfortunately, the poor ATC guys may get drawn into the lawsuit because of their purported failure to warn Jacques and give me proper vectors for the "traffice alert".  According to the president of the controller’s union, there was no way his people had time to give Jacques the vectors to clear the incoming F-15. Lastly, a lawyer I know in Tampa who handles air crash liablity cases says that the 10 million dollar lawsuit against the u.s. government could well be met with a counter-claim for the loss of the F-16! Now that’s brazen. Yesterday I got a flyer in the mail about a new FAA program to educate private pilots about military ops. in the McDill area. In the end, the consensus of the group seems to be that it’s impossible for the average pilot  to avoid an imminent collision with aircraft travelling at 48,400 feet per minute! Thank god the sky is so big, otherwise there’d probably be alot more collisions like the one that took a fine man’s life last nov. 16 in Sarasota. Let’s all hope that the airforce learns a constuctive lesson from this tragedy. ralph  

Response:

I don’t know how many Military Training Routes there are on the east coast, but here in the west the charts are a spider web of MTRs.  It is my understanding that military fighters, freighters, and unarmed cruise missiles conduct low-level training between 500′ and 10,000′ AGL at speeds up to 580 knots on these routes. Yeah but this clown wasn’t in the MTR.

It is my understanding that the flight of two F-16s was about to enter a MTR when the collision occurred. The military must issue a Environmental Impact Statement when proposing a MTR.  The FAA has traditionally allowed the military to be responsible for its own environmental assessments and has not been involved in substantially reviewing or evaluating the assessments. As a result the military "owns" over 50% of the continental US airspace! Well that’s nice, the FAA doesn’t have any jurisdiction over what the military does.  

What is the source of your above assertion?  It is my understanding that MTRs are supposed to be jointly created by the military and FAA. But, the FAA has been criticized by DOT for "rubber stamping" the military’s MTR requests. They can only gripe about it.

You’re saying that the only action FAA can take regarding proposed military activity in the skies is a memo?  Doubtful.

Response:

It is my understanding that the flight of two F-16s was about to enter a MTR when the collision occurred.

Which is true (actually, they were trying to find the beginning of it). Around here we have a word for "about to enter", we call it "outside."

Response:

Gentlemen, Thanks for all the input. In a follow up article in the st.pete times on March 8 the head of the air traffic controller’s union in Tampa said the traffic alert occured 15 seconds before the impact, not 30.

(I was unable to locate that article on-line.) Unfortunately, there seems to be considerable time lag in ATC’s alerting pilots to potential in-flight traffic conflicts.  Often I have received ATC traffic reports so late that the traffic has passed while ATC is reporting it at 12 o-clock.  There is the inherent delay of RADAR sweep dependent on the rotational speed of the radar dish (about 5 to 6 seconds typically).  But, there seems to be some other source of delay in the system that makes the controllers’ picture of the sky substantially less than real-time. He gave a scathing assessment of the airforce investigation.

Any intelligent person can discern the military’s complete lack of regard for GA flights in their statements.  The military is "out of control" with regard to their lack responsibility, not only in the case of this accident, but in the hazard their operations pose to civil flights, and the environment.  It is time an outraged citizenry exposes the military’s reckless operations publicly in the news media. Also, the lawyer for Jacques family was outraged at the air force report. Unfortunately, the poor ATC guys may get drawn into the lawsuit because of their purported failure to warn Jacques and give me proper vectors for the "traffice alert". According to the president of the controller’s union, there was no way his people had time to give Jacques the vectors to clear the incoming F-15.

How does the military defend the fact that their F-16s unlawfully entered class B & C special use airspace without contacting ATC, exceeded the 250 knot speed limit below 10,000 feet by over 100%, and failed to "see and avoid" Jacques Cessna?  This "accident" is truly a second degree murder committed by lawless, renegade military pilots. The military mind is a dangerous thing.   Lastly, a lawyer I know in Tampa who handles air crash liablity cases says that the 10 million dollar lawsuit against the u.s. government could well be met with a counter-claim for the loss of the F-16! Now that’s brazen.

The military’s arrogance in this issue is likely to cause more public outrage over their inept operations.  Likely, the military’s offensive tenor is bolstered by the election of George W. Bush to the highest office in the land (world?).   Perhaps the time is at hand for a Class Action suit against the military’s reckless and careless operations in the public skies.   Yesterday I got a flyer in the mail about a new FAA program to educate private pilots about military ops. in the McDill area. In the end, the consensus of the group seems to be that it’s impossible for the average pilot  to avoid an imminent collision with aircraft travelling at 48,400 feet per minute!

So, what does the FAA propose be done about it?  Perhaps it time the NTSB make some recommendations for changes in military operations.   Thank god the sky is so big, otherwise there’d probably be alot more collisions like the one that took a fine man’s life last nov. 16 in Sarasota. Let’s all hope that the airforce learns a constuctive lesson from this tragedy.

Hope and $3.50 will buy you a cup of Starbucks.  :-)   The military is incapable of "learning" from it’s mistakes.  The military’s reign of terrorizing the skies will only change when public outrage and legal damage suits are brought to bare against them (if then).   REF: Speed cited as a factor in F-16 crash St. Petersburg Times; St. Petersburg, Fla.; Nov 30, 2000; JEAN HELLER; http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/main/doc/000000064837187.html?QDe… Search St. Petersburg Times: http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sptimes/main/advancedsearch.html

Response:

How does the military defend the fact that their F-16s unlawfully entered class B & C special use airspace without contacting ATC, exceeded the 250 knot speed limit below 10,000 feet by over 100%, and failed to "see and avoid" Jacques Cessna?

Which law is that?  The 14 CFR does not apply to military aircraft except by the grace of the military themselves that says they will follow the civilian regs.  The FAA has only civil authority. So, what does the FAA propose be done about it?  Perhaps it time the NTSB make some recommendations for changes in military operations.

The military would ignore the NTSB, just like the FAA does.

Response:

I think that the Air Force’s only concern is the loss of their F-16.  They apparently don’t care about Jacques or his Cessna.  They also obviously have no respect for controlled airspace or the rules by which the civilian aviation world operates.  No civilian pilot could bust a Class B airspace like these F-16s did and get away with it (not counting the collision). Of course, the F-16 will come out of our taxes, so they probably don’t worry too much about it either. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gentlemen, Thanks for all the input. In a follow up article in the st.pete times on March 8 the head of the air traffic controller’s union in Tampa said the traffic alert occured 15 seconds before the impact, not 30. He gave a scathing assessment of the airforce investigation. Also, the lawyer for Jacques family was outraged at the air force report. Unfortunately, the poor ATC guys may get drawn into the lawsuit because of their purported failure to warn Jacques and give me proper vectors for the "traffice alert".  According to the president of the controller’s union, there was no way his people had time to give Jacques the vectors to clear the incoming F-15. Lastly, a lawyer I know in Tampa who handles air crash liablity cases says that the 10 million dollar lawsuit against the u.s. government could well be met with a counter-claim for the loss of the F-16! Now that’s brazen. Yesterday I got a flyer in the mail about a new FAA program to educate private pilots about military ops. in the McDill area. In the end, the consensus of the group seems to be that it’s impossible for the average pilot  to avoid an imminent collision with aircraft travelling at 48,400 feet per minute! Thank god the sky is so big, otherwise there’d probably be alot more collisions like the one that took a fine man’s life last nov. 16 in Sarasota. Let’s all hope that the airforce learns a constuctive lesson from this tragedy. ralph

Response:

It is my understanding that the flight of two F-16s was about to enter a MTR when the collision occurred. Which is true (actually, they were trying to find the beginning of it). Around here we have a word for "about to enter", we call it "outside."

How would the F-16s being "inside" the MTR have affected this mid-air collision?   It is virtually impossible to "see and avoid" an F-16 painted the same color as the background it is against presenting its minimal frontal profile and traveling 580 knots.   Those military F-16 pilots should be tried/court martialed for second degree murder. The entire MTR structure is a blatant hazard to civil flight (not to mention the environment) that the Germans recognized and ousted from their country.  The military is out-of-control in the skies over the continental US.  It’s time this is rectified through legal action(s).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does the military defend the fact that their F-16s unlawfully entered class B & C special use airspace without contacting ATC, exceeded the 250 knot speed limit below 10,000 feet by over 100%, and failed to "see and avoid" Jacques Cessna? Which law is that?  The 14 CFR does not apply to military aircraft except by the grace of the military themselves that says they will follow the civilian regs.  The FAA has only civil authority. So, what does the FAA propose be done about it?  Perhaps it time the NTSB make some recommendations for changes in military operations. The military would ignore the NTSB, just like the FAA does.

Will the NTSB be involved because a civilian plane was involved? Normally, if its just a military accident there is no NTSB.

Response:

It is my understanding that the flight of two F-16s was about to enter a MTR when the collision occurred. Which is true (actually, they were trying to find the beginning of it). Around here we have a word for "about to enter", we call it "outside." How would the F-16s being "inside" the MTR have affected this mid-air collision?

I didn’t say it would.  But your assertion was that th ey were on the MTR? The nature of MTR’s is inconsequential in this crash, the planes were not even on the MTR.

Response:

The military would ignore the NTSB, just like the FAA does. Will the NTSB be involved because a civilian plane was involved? Normally, if its just a military accident there is no NTSB.

I would expect that they will for that reason (they are tasked with investigating every civil aviation accident).  I was just pointing out that the FAA routinely ignores the NTSB recommendations, so it would seem entirely plausible that the military would as well.

Response:

So, in your opinion, the hazards to civil aviation created by negligent military flight operations are sacrosanct?  It is useless to hold the military accountable for their negligence?  We are all just helpless to effect any change in the military’s criminal abuse of the skies?  With George W. Bush in office, this may be true.   But, there is always the old fashion way to deal with despots.  If the military continues to spew arrogant rhetoric about its lack of responsibility for the death of the late Mr. Jacques Olivier, they may find their fighters punctured by ground fire irate citizens.  After all, that is the reason the Constitution provides the citizens of this fair land the right to bear arms.   Fortunately, I believe that the military is only exempt from 14 CFR when engaged in an actual military mission, as opposed to a training exercise.  (Where’s Mr. McNicol when you need him?)   Again, can you cite a reference for your assertion that the military is not required to comply with 14 CFR during peace time operations? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How does the military defend the fact that their F-16s unlawfully entered class B & C special use airspace without contacting ATC, exceeded the 250 knot speed limit below 10,000 feet by over 100%, and failed to "see and avoid" Jacques Cessna? Which law is that?  The 14 CFR does not apply to military aircraft except by the grace of the military themselves that says they will follow the civilian regs.  The FAA has only civil authority. So, what does the FAA propose be done about it?  Perhaps it time the NTSB make some recommendations for changes in military operations. The military would ignore the NTSB, just like the FAA does.

Response:

I don’t know how many Military Training Routes there are on the east coast, but here in the west the charts are a spider web of MTRs.  It is my understanding that military fighters, freighters, and unarmed cruise missiles conduct low-level training between 500′ and 10,000′ AGL at speeds up to 580 knots on these routes.

Yeah but this clown wasn’t in the MTR. The military must issue a Environmental Impact Statement when proposing a MTR.  The FAA has traditionally allowed the military to be responsible for its own environmental assessments and has not been involved in substantially reviewing or evaluating the assessments. As a result the military "owns" over 50% of the continental US airspace!

Well that’s nice, the FAA doesn’t have any jurisdiction over what the military does.  They can only gripe about it.

Response:

My question is this: Is it possible to see an aircraft travelling over 500 mpg in time to avoid an accident if you’re in  cessna? Even if you saw an F-16 travelling at that speed, could you act quick enough to avoid a collision?  550 mph is 806 feet per second. I don’t see how  you could  see and avoid  another object going that fast.

     This is one of the reasons you aren’t supposed to top 250 knots below 10,000 feet unless you are in an MOA on a mission.  Although it seems that of late, if you work for the people who make the rules, you don’t need to follow them.  We get a lot of traffic through our area when there are exercises.  The local military pilots don’t cause much in the way of problems, but when we get a bunch of visitors from the lower 48 who figure they are in the middle of nowhere it can get interesting.  In exchange for swiping nearly all of the airspace in interior Alaska, the gummint put in a pretty extensive radar and communication coverage for the MOA’s called the Special Use Airspace Information System and I must say that it works well and helps a lot.  You cannot avoid flying in a hot MOA around here if you want to go anywhere.  Virtually the entire eastern third of Alaska is either an MOA or an R.  Alaska is part of the US on April 15th, when some politician is grinding an environmental axe, when the government wants more land for its employees to play with, or when some foreign company with a buddy in Washington or Juneau wants something.  There is kind of an us and them thing that makes it very difficult to communicate with some of these folks.  It took repeated calls, registering the strip, and the intervention of a US senator to get the army to stop running UH-60’s across the business end the our strip at low altitude.  I have yet to have an incursion, or even an annoyance, by a civil pilot.  Funny how having to follow the rules makes a difference.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear fellow pilots: The St.Petersburg times (http://www.sptimes.com)  has a front page article in today’s paper about the investigation of the crash of an air force F-16 and a Cessna 172 flown by a Frenchman named Jacques Olivier. The planes collided on nov. 16, 2000. According to the St. Pete times,  the Air Force accepts most of the blame for the crash. The F-16s went thru controlled airspace  without talking to Tampa Approach while travelling at up to 550 mph The ariticle said they were off course by 11 miles The FAA had a traffic alert 30 seconds before the accident but by the time they said something, more than 15 seconds had gone by and Jacques had no time to react. The airforce said Jacques should have used "see and avoid" techniques to miss the airforce plane. My question is this: Is it possible to see an aircraft travelling over 500 mpg in time to avoid an accident if you’re in a cessna? Even if you saw an F-16 travelling at that speed, could you act quick enough to avoid a collision? 550 mph is 806 feet per second. I don’t see how  you could  see and avoid  another object going that fast. ralph, tampa pilot of a 172

At 30 seconds it was 4.5 miles from Jacques position. To expect anyone in another plane to expect or see anything going that fast is absurd.  The military lately has been getting away with a lot of things.  That disaster in Italy comes to mind (with the gondola cable), the ridiculous crash of the sub into the boat (they had the boat on passive sonar!) The F-16 in this case was clearly wrong and the report should say that and then they should make the proper restitution to the pilot’s family.  The air force’s contention that Jacques was partly to blame is so arrogant that it makes me angry and ashamed.  That General will have to answer to the court. What’s the message from the Air force?  Same as it is if you’re a professional athlete do what you want we’ll cover your ass! Rest in peace Jacques.

Response:

No mention of the fact that the Air Force F16 has superior "see and avoid" capability with its targeting radar.  The pilots had it switched off at the time of the collision according to the preliminary NTSB report I read. This was a simple case of arrogance on the part of the F16 pilots IMHO.

Response:

No mention of the fact that the Air Force F16 has superior "see and avoid" capability with its targeting radar.  The pilots had it switched off at the time of the collision according to the preliminary NTSB report I read. This was a simple case of arrogance on the part of the F16 pilots IMHO.

Because of the speed difference the 172 would’ve been stationary in the windscreen less than 10 degrees off the nose of the F16, even if they were tracking at right angles to each other, so obviously they weren’t using eyeballs either.

Response:

My question is this: Is it possible to see an aircraft travelling over 500 mpg in time to avoid an accident if you’re in a cessna? Even if you saw an F-16 travelling at that speed, could you act quick enough to avoid a collision?

IMHO, short answers are: 1. Yes, 2. Yes. But, there are certain problems with that scenario, which make it impossible to see and avoid. A pilot of 172 _may_ be able to detect a hazardous situation. But he/she has not enough information to predict if an actual collision would happen or a near miss. A collision avoidance maneuver may only help a collision. According to the lead F-16 pilot, Mr. Oliver was turning at the moment of the collision (or, at least, was in a steep bank). Perhaps he tried to execute an avoidance maneuver. The group consensus was that the only chance is to bank and turn in such a way as to attract the incoming fighter’s pilot attention. If we talk about the particular case, an unhappy chance had it that F-16’s executed an S-turn before the impact. The lead turned his head to find the wingman (who changed his position), and the wingman was fixated on the lead. Therefore neither of them looked ahead. The NTSB report does not infer anything, but I think they had a chance to maneuver around otherwise. — Pete

Response:

No mention of the fact that the Air Force F16 has superior "see and avoid" capability with its targeting radar.  The pilots had it switched off at the time of the collision according to the preliminary NTSB report I read. This was a simple case of arrogance on the part of the F16 pilots IMHO. Because of the speed difference the 172 would’ve been stationary in the windscreen less than 10 degrees off the nose of the F16, even if they were tracking at right angles to each other, so obviously they weren’t using eyeballs either.

Yeah and they were’nt using their brains either, must have had them switched off. Rest in peace Jacques.

Response:

When learning to fly close to the end of the runway was a MOA.  I respectfully turned at a lower than the standard crosswind altitude to avoid and respect the restricted space.  We all have to dodge and dance around military space and God forbid you are 11 miles (!0 off course and wander into one.  These guys are in one of the most capable aircraft EVER built to date.  Not a tube and fabric, you need fuel when it hits the fuel cap type plane.  Can’t we get enough respect for our piece of the sky to have these guys pay the same attention to where they are?  Is this to much to ask ?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear fellow pilots: The St.Petersburg times (http://www.sptimes.com)  has a front page article in today’s paper about the investigation of the crash of an air force F-16 and a Cessna 172 flown by a Frenchman named Jacques Olivier. The planes collided on nov. 16, 2000. According to the St. Pete times,  the Air Force accepts most of the blame for the crash. The F-16s went thru controlled airspace  without talking to Tampa Approach while travelling at up to 550 mph The ariticle said they were off course by 11 miles The FAA had a traffic alert 30 seconds before the accident but by the time they said something, more than 15 seconds had gone by and Jacques had no time to react. The airforce said Jacques should have used "see and avoid" techniques to miss the airforce plane. My question is this: Is it possible to see an aircraft travelling over 500 mpg in time to avoid an accident if you’re in a cessna? Even if you saw an F-16 travelling at that speed, could you act quick enough to avoid a collision? 550 mph is 806 feet per second. I don’t see how  you could  see and avoid  another object going that fast. ralph, tampa pilot of a 172

Response:

The airforce said Jacques should have used "see and avoid" techniques to miss the airforce plane.

The Air Force is full of crap. My question is this: Is it possible to see an aircraft travelling over 500 mpg in time to avoid an accident if you’re in a cessna? Even if you saw an F-16 travelling at that speed, could you act quick enough to avoid a collision? 550 mph is 806 feet per second. I don’t see how  you could  see and avoid  another object going that fast.

You’re correct. It takes roughly 7 seconds to see, recognize, and react. Then the plane has to react. He would have had to see the planes when they were at least two miles away to have a snowball’s chance of staying alive, and these aircraft are deliberately painted in a color that is difficult to see. The fighters were approaching him from the side – he was directly in front of them. The onus for collision avoidance in this situation is completely on the fighter pilots. George Patterson,  N3162Q.

Response:

Apparently the same could be said for the airforce pilot who also had TCAS aboard. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The airforce said Jacques should have used "see and avoid" techniques to miss the airforce plane.

Response:

The airforce said Jacques should have used "see and avoid" techniques to miss the airforce plane. The Air Force is full of crap.

Actually, it’s not limited to the Air Force.  It seems that shifting blame is the norm throughout DOD; remember the Navy and the USS Iowa incident?

Response:

I don’t know how many Military Training Routes there are on the east coast, but here in the west the charts are a spider web of MTRs.  It is my understanding that military fighters, freighters, and unarmed cruise missiles conduct low-level training between 500′ and 10,000′ AGL at speeds up to 580 knots on these routes. The military must issue a Environmental Impact Statement when proposing a MTR.  The FAA has traditionally allowed the military to be responsible for its own environmental assessments and has not been involved in substantially reviewing or evaluating the assessments. As a result the military "owns" over 50% of the continental US airspace! It is unclear how the EIS overcomes the issue of VFR  "see and avoid" requirements.  Exercises on VFR MTRs may only be conducted when flight visibility is 5 miles or greater.  At the worst case of 5 miles visibility and 580 knots, the pilots have 27.3 seconds to "see and avoid".  This means that pilots are expected to scan the entire sky twice a minute to "see and avoid".  Personally, I find that unreasonable and dangerous.   It is clear to reasonable minds that the onus of responsibility to "see and avoid" is squarely on the shoulders of the military, because it is they who are creating the hazard by operating their aircraft in excess of twice the speed limit imposed on other aircraft.  It is military aircraft flown by military pilots flying below 10,000 feet in excess of 250 knots who are creating the hazardous situation.  These military aircraft are equipped with RADAR capable of targeting aircraft in their path, and should be REQUIRED to use it for collision avoidance. REF: The third sentence of the second paragraph of this FAA MTR document does not contain a verb: http://www.faa.gov/ats/afss/newyork/miltrng.htm .  It is indicative of the care the FAA and military exercised in creating the MTR structure. http://www.rama-usa.org/mtr.htm http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2000/00-4-066x.html At least the Rural Alliance for Military Accountability and the Center for Biological Diversity are trying to make the military assume responsibility for the threats their MTRs pose: http://npweb.craigslist.org/cpeo/lists/military/2000/msg00349.html According to a 1988 GAO report, Airspace Use: FAA Needs to Improve Its Management of Special Use Airspace.  The FAA does not have adequate utilization data for special use airspace nor has it established guidelines to help eliminate special use airspace that is inefficiently or inappropriately used. Military Training Routes and Formation Flight: For an MTR pilot’s-eye view of what (s)he sees when flying an MTR click this link: http://www.abqafss.jccbi.gov/VRrteAvi.htm Here is some information on MTR Environmental Impact Statements: http://www.pecos.net/news/arch99/040799o.htm "Although the Environmental Impact Statement Draft acknowledges that a B-1 creates a decibel level of 117 at 300 feet and a B-52 creates decibel level of 110 at the same altitude above ground level, it creates a methodology defined by the Defense Dept. that devalues that effect. "The cumulative metric, DNL … Is a 24-hour average A-weighted sound level measure. DNL sums the individual noise events and averages the resulting level over a specified length of time. It is a composite metric accounting for the maximum and the number of events." The methodology averages noise events over a week and a month, which I think tends to create an interpretation that avoids focus on the peak intensity of the moment of loudest decibels, and I assume includes periods when no planes are present. "L dmnr is the monthly average of the Onset-Rate Adjusted Day-Night AVerage sound Level (DNL). For this EIS, all noise levels were calculated using L dmnr." The executive summary states that "Noise levels would not exceed levels likely to damage structures," but residents underlying the flight path are best qualified to report actual experience. The Draft states that DNL will not exceed 62 on Military Training Route 178 and defines a 65 DNL as the ]threshold for an adverse finding." Recurring military buz jobs within 100 yards of a private residense: http://www.mcn.org/c/irapilgrim/war12.html National Imaging and Mapping Agency MTR database: http://164.214.2.62/products/webchum/QryChoice.cfm AIR WARS: http://www.cdi.org/adm/801/transcript.html "But low level training in this country is no less intrusive and dangerous than it is anywhere else. And for the same reasons the German citizens rose up against this kind of training, Americans across the country are contesting these acquisition attempts." In this document the Air Force tells how to avoid colisions: http://www.mcguire.af.mil/wingstaff/safety/MACAPAM1.htm#sect5 Unfortunately, there is inadiquate time left to do anything else but scan the sky using their guide lines. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear fellow pilots: The St.Petersburg times (http://www.sptimes.com)  has a front page article in today’s paper about the investigation of the crash of an air force F-16 and a Cessna 172 flown by a Frenchman named Jacques Olivier. The planes collided on nov. 16, 2000. According to the St. Pete times,  the Air Force accepts most of the blame for the crash. The F-16s went thru controlled airspace  without talking to Tampa Approach while travelling at up to 550 mph The ariticle said they were off course by 11 miles The FAA had a traffic alert 30 seconds before the accident but by the time they said something, more than 15 seconds had gone by and Jacques had no time to react. The airforce said Jacques should have used "see and avoid" techniques to miss the airforce plane. My question is this: Is it possible to see an aircraft travelling over 500 mpg in time to avoid an accident if you’re in a cessna? Even if you saw an F-16 travelling at that speed, could you act quick enough to avoid a collision? 550 mph is 806 feet per second. I don’t see how  you could  see and avoid  another object going that fast. ralph, tampa pilot of a 172

Response:

Dear fellow pilots: The St.Petersburg times (http://www.sptimes.com)  has a front page article in today’s paper about the investigation of the crash of an air force F-16 and a Cessna 172 flown by a Frenchman named Jacques Olivier. The planes collided on nov. 16, 2000. According to the St. Pete times,  the Air Force accepts most of the blame for the crash. The F-16s went thru controlled airspace  without talking to Tampa Approach while travelling at up to 550 mph The ariticle said they were off course by 11 miles The FAA had a traffic alert 30 seconds before the accident but by the time they said something, more than 15 seconds had gone by and Jacques had no time to react. The airforce said Jacques should have used "see and avoid" techniques to miss the airforce plane. My question is this: Is it possible to see an aircraft travelling over 500 mpg in time to avoid an accident if you’re in a cessna? Even if you saw an F-16 travelling at that speed, could you act quick enough to avoid a collision? 550 mph is 806 feet per second. I don’t see how  you could  see and avoid  another object going that fast. ralph, tampa pilot of a 172

Response:

I think you know the answers already. These statements were made by the Air Force officer in charge of the investigation, not exactly an independent opinion.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear fellow pilots: <snip My question is this: Is it possible to see an aircraft travelling over 500 mpg in time to avoid an accident if you’re in a cessna? Even if you saw an F-16 travelling at that speed, could you act quick enough to avoid a collision? 550 mph is 806 feet per second. I don’t see how  you could  see and avoid  another object going that fast. ralph, tampa pilot of a 172

Response:

Question:

Huh.  The thumbnails loaded just fine on my computer.  And it’s kinda old… Oh, it must be my cable internet connection. The site is fine – I liked the stars, even though my clunker computer didn’t.  Maybe you need to get a better internet provider – or just a life. — Janice Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up.  It knows it must outrun the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up.  It knows it must run faster than the slowest gazelle or it will starve. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a lion or a gazelle – when the sun comes up, you’d better be running.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –            lissen up chubs, who the fuck asked you anyway? If you so hot on comPUtors why th efuck does your web site suck so bad? How come your thumbnails load like old people fuck? How come huh? Listen my little heffer only advice IO got for you is push your fat ass away from that comPUtor put down the fucking gummi bears and go buy a treadmill and get your fatass to work. Then we can talk ok baby?            Tha Starmaker HA HA HA! I am sooo glad that you "chumps" *think* you know what you’re talking about! I happen to be an Internet Communications Bachelor of Science graduate, on my way to my Masters and all that rubble that you just spent time making up is pure bonafide garbage! It makes no sense, you threw a bunch of big computer words together hoping it would scare some people and the truth is, it’s all garbage. I hope you’re better at accounting than Computers, baby. By the way, I was filing tax returns as a second job when I was in HIGH SCHOOL and was still making $100 pop.          I’m all for it starmie baby. Ok here’s the plan then. I am going to call my legions of attorneys and interpol because it llos to me like an international criminal conspiracy is trying to stop us from degrading assaulting and harassing men and women all over the net. We can’t have that. Who do these chumps think they are to dare to have the arrogance to tell ME what to do? hehehehehehe          I have had enough and it’s time we hook into the hard drives of these maroons and trolls. I can rig a netserver XT900 to mirror the upload through the NNTP propagation scripting in deja. Then it’s a simple matter for you to in-line the code from blue box to encode IP’s and then shell through the original servers with a unix backdoor exploit. You following me starmie? hehehehehehe           I gots ta tell ya good buddy this is cutting into my 1040a time. All the dumb working chumps here in Queens pay me 50 bucks a shot to spend 5 minutes filing their pathetic chump change short form returns online and I got to make hay while the sun shines and they need their refunds to have a good crack party. I cater that too. hehehehehehe So let’s get this show on the road and do these clown whickens we got em crappin in dere pantz! hehehehehe Carl   *ka-ching*   Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy? — I don’t know my ass from my ass — I don’t know my ass from my ass

Response:

       No baby, don’t dooooo me that way. I am posting as Carl I loves ya baby needs ya gots to gots to have you baby cum cum cum for me now and I will penetrate yur soul through your backside like you have never dreamed cause yu know me baby I am a stud. Carl "I like to play with furniture" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that why you’re posting at ATW as "sighren"? [smirk]                Hey baby I told you I don’t pork no porkers now shut the fuck up. Get over me already. Randy, Randy, Randy…you screwed up, yet again… If yer talking to me de Valet, I never ever ever run sock puppets. I am proud of my words and the making of blustering bozos like you into writhing whiner monkeys. You are the one who has screwed up over and over. I never lose my temper and slip while I have made you lose yours dozens of times and threaten violence and murder, rape and forced sexual domination. Is this how you kowtowed your former lovers before they summarily rejected you for real men? Yer Master The Mighty BirdTribe de Valois — * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com  http://www.mosthost.net

– I am almost competent at form 1040a!

Response:

hahaha lmao Full O Shit!  hahah Thats the lame’est one I ever saw, why don’t you just threaten to find out everyone’s aol sn and punt them!  lmao hahahaha… hehe Don’t be talking about the powerful penquin too much, i don’t think you know how to make him do what ya want     -moonenigma    BTW!   A+, Network+, MCP, MCSE+I, RHCE certified Kinda feels good to hold the knowledge Still studing the cicso cert ;]

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –          I’m all for it starmie baby. Ok here’s the plan then. I am going to call my legions of attorneys and interpol because it llos to me like an international criminal conspiracy is trying to stop us from degrading assaulting and harassing men and women all over the net. We can’t have that. Who do these chumps think they are to dare to have the arrogance to tell ME what to do? hehehehehehe          I have had enough and it’s time we hook into the hard drives of these maroons and trolls. I can rig a netserver XT900 to mirror the upload through the NNTP propagation scripting in deja. Then it’s a simple matter for you to in-line the code from blue box to encode IP’s and then shell through the original servers with a unix backdoor exploit. You following me starmie? hehehehehehe           I gots ta tell ya good buddy this is cutting into my 1040a time. All the dumb working chumps here in Queens pay me 50 bucks a shot to spend 5 minutes filing their pathetic chump change short form returns online and I got to make hay while the sun shines and they need their refunds to have a good crack party. I cater that too. hehehehehehe So let’s get this show on the road and do these clown whickens we got em crappin in dere pantz! hehehehehe Carl   *ka-ching*   Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy? — I don’t know my ass from my ass

Response:

               Hey baby I told you I don’t pork no porkers now shut the fuck up. Get over me already. Randy, Randy, Randy…you screwed up, yet again…

If yer talking to me de Valet, I never ever ever run sock puppets. I am proud of my words and the making of blustering bozos like you into writhing whiner monkeys. You are the one who has screwed up over and over. I never lose my temper and slip while I have made you lose yours dozens of times and threaten violence and murder, rape and forced sexual domination. Is this how you kowtowed your former lovers before they summarily rejected you for real men? Yer Master The Mighty BirdTribe de Valois

– * Clowns, by their very nature, are attracted to any number of absurd realities * Artworks, games, keys – visit http://www.birdtribe.net/ your.domain.com  http://www.mosthost.net

Response:

               Hey baby I told you I don’t pork no porkers now shut the fuck up. Get over me already.

Randy, Randy, Randy…you screwed up, yet again… de Valois

Response:

  Look baby you know it I know it everyone knows it but look baby you gotta believe me my big head ain’t gonna fit in your mouth and its gonna get lost in your fatass so we just ain’t gonna make it baby. What’s with all these chicks gettin after me I tell youse they ain;t no hope for em! Now if anna if you tell me you a satass Jewish chick then maybe I might think about shovin it in you baby you got it so whats it gonna be? Bat Me or the Highway?      The Starmaker – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Get over you? I don’t think I could get past that big head of yours if I tried!                Hey baby I told you I don’t pork no porkers now shut the fuck up. Get over me already.            The Starmaker — I don’t know my ass from my ass That’s funny, I actually couldn’t tell your ass from your face…. Anna   Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy? — I don’t know my ass from my ass

– I don’t know my ass from my ass

Response:

           lissen up chubs, who the fuck asked you anyway? If you so hot on comPUtors why th efuck does your web site suck so bad? How come your thumbnails load like old people fuck? How come huh? Listen my little heffer only advice IO got for you is push your fat ass away from that comPUtor put down the fucking gummi bears and go buy a treadmill and get your fatass to work. Then we can talk ok baby?            Tha Starmaker – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HA HA HA! I am sooo glad that you "chumps" *think* you know what you’re talking about! I happen to be an Internet Communications Bachelor of Science graduate, on my way to my Masters and all that rubble that you just spent time making up is pure bonafide garbage! It makes no sense, you threw a bunch of big computer words together hoping it would scare some people and the truth is, it’s all garbage. I hope you’re better at accounting than Computers, baby. By the way, I was filing tax returns as a second job when I was in HIGH SCHOOL and was still making $100 pop.          I’m all for it starmie baby. Ok here’s the plan then. I am going to call my legions of attorneys and interpol because it llos to me like an international criminal conspiracy is trying to stop us from degrading assaulting and harassing men and women all over the net. We can’t have that. Who do these chumps think they are to dare to have the arrogance to tell ME what to do? hehehehehehe          I have had enough and it’s time we hook into the hard drives of these maroons and trolls. I can rig a netserver XT900 to mirror the upload through the NNTP propagation scripting in deja. Then it’s a simple matter for you to in-line the code from blue box to encode IP’s and then shell through the original servers with a unix backdoor exploit. You following me starmie? hehehehehehe           I gots ta tell ya good buddy this is cutting into my 1040a time. All the dumb working chumps here in Queens pay me 50 bucks a shot to spend 5 minutes filing their pathetic chump change short form returns online and I got to make hay while the sun shines and they need their refunds to have a good crack party. I cater that too. hehehehehehe So let’s get this show on the road and do these clown whickens we got em crappin in dere pantz! hehehehehe Carl   *ka-ching*   Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy? — I don’t know my ass from my ass

– I don’t know my ass from my ass

Response:

Get over you? I don’t think I could get past that big head of yours if I tried!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                Hey baby I told you I don’t pork no porkers now shut the fuck up. Get over me already.            The Starmaker — I don’t know my ass from my ass That’s funny, I actually couldn’t tell your ass from your face…. Anna   Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy? — I don’t know my ass from my ass

Response:

               Hey baby I told you I don’t pork no porkers now shut the fuck up. Get over me already.            The Starmaker – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — I don’t know my ass from my ass That’s funny, I actually couldn’t tell your ass from your face…. Anna   Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy?

– I don’t know my ass from my ass

Response:

HA HA HA! I am sooo glad that you "chumps" *think* you know what you’re talking about! I happen to be an Internet Communications Bachelor of Science graduate, on my way to my Masters and all that rubble that you just spent time making up is pure bonafide garbage! It makes no sense, you threw a bunch of big computer words together hoping it would scare some people and the truth is, it’s all garbage. I hope you’re better at accounting than Computers, baby. By the way, I was filing tax returns as a second job when I was in HIGH SCHOOL and was still making $100 pop.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –          I’m all for it starmie baby. Ok here’s the plan then. I am going to call my legions of attorneys and interpol because it llos to me like an international criminal conspiracy is trying to stop us from degrading assaulting and harassing men and women all over the net. We can’t have that. Who do these chumps think they are to dare to have the arrogance to tell ME what to do? hehehehehehe          I have had enough and it’s time we hook into the hard drives of these maroons and trolls. I can rig a netserver XT900 to mirror the upload through the NNTP propagation scripting in deja. Then it’s a simple matter for you to in-line the code from blue box to encode IP’s and then shell through the original servers with a unix backdoor exploit. You following me starmie? hehehehehehe           I gots ta tell ya good buddy this is cutting into my 1040a time. All the dumb working chumps here in Queens pay me 50 bucks a shot to spend 5 minutes filing their pathetic chump change short form returns online and I got to make hay while the sun shines and they need their refunds to have a good crack party. I cater that too. hehehehehehe So let’s get this show on the road and do these clown whickens we got em crappin in dere pantz! hehehehehe Carl   *ka-ching*   Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy? — I don’t know my ass from my ass

Response:

         I’m all for it starmie baby. Ok here’s the plan then. I am going to call my legions of attorneys and interpol because it llos to me like an international criminal conspiracy is trying to stop us from degrading assaulting and harassing men and women all over the net. We can’t have that. Who do these chumps think they are to dare to have the arrogance to tell ME what to do? hehehehehehe          I have had enough and it’s time we hook into the hard drives of these maroons and trolls. I can rig a netserver XT900 to mirror the upload through the NNTP propagation scripting in deja. Then it’s a simple matter for you to in-line the code from blue box to encode IP’s and then shell through the original servers with a unix backdoor exploit. You following me starmie? hehehehehehe           I gots ta tell ya good buddy this is cutting into my 1040a time. All the dumb working chumps here in Queens pay me 50 bucks a shot to spend 5 minutes filing their pathetic chump change short form returns online and I got to make hay while the sun shines and they need their refunds to have a good crack party. I cater that too. hehehehehehe So let’s get this show on the road and do these clown whickens we got em crappin in dere pantz! hehehehehe Carl   *ka-ching* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy? — I don’t know my ass from my ass

Response:

gee that’s so convincing.. — "life is a creation, not a discovery"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy? — I don’t know my ass from my ass

Response:

— I don’t know my ass from my ass

That’s funny, I actually couldn’t tell your ass from your face…. Anna

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy?

Response:

  Carl baby, you know we don’t have to put up with all dis crap and dissin’ Let’s hook up the bluebox and crossfeed back through NNTP block the ports and re-string the I/0’s and initialize looping back through the backbone until these wads systems tell us who they are and we can give all the whatfor to your Poleece frens. Then we can have our playground back to ourselves and stalk and harass wymmins until we can’t cum no more. Deal buddy? — I don’t know my ass from my ass

Response:

Question:

An appellate court is hearing the government’s appeal of U.S. v. Emerson, a Texas case resulting from a divorce action that resulted in Dr. Timothy Emerson being indicted by a federal grand jury.  Emerson was in violation of the Lautenberg Amendment – a local court had placed a restraining order against him, making it against federal law for him to possess a firearm. In April 1999, U.S. District Court Judge Sam Cummings ruled that this law was an unconstitutional infringement of the "individual right to bear arms." Cummings set aside the indictment, and in doing so, struck a grievous blow to the gun prohibitionists. Of course, the government appealed the decision. The following is from the transcript of oral arguments: Judge William L. Garwood: "You are saying that the Second Amendment is consistent with a position that you can take guns away from the public? You can restrict ownership of rifles, pistols and shotguns from all people? Is that the position of the United States?" Assistant U.S. Attorney William B. Mateja: "Yes." Garwood: "Is it the position of the United States that persons who are not in the National Guard are afforded no protections under the Second Amendment?" Mateja: "Exactly." Mateja then argued that even membership in the National Guard would not qualify an individual to possess firearms. Garwood: "Membership in the National Guard isn’t enough? What else is needed?" Mateja: "The weapon in question must be used IN the National Guard." The above represents the position of the Clinton/Gore administration. No matter which side wins this appeal, the other will certainly appeal to the Supreme Court. If Gore is elected he will appoint Supreme Court Justices who support this position.

Response:

Is there really a difference between the two major parties?

If you don’t know the difference, please don’t vote. Lon

Response:

   Swat Teams are sort of like guns in general,  it’s better to have them, & not need then, that to need one, & not have it.    I realize, for folks who react to the the "G word" (Government!) in the same way as when "Niagara Falls!" is mentioned in the old Three Stooges, & Abbot & Costello movies, this is a real sore spot, but the abolition of all Swat outfits sure ain’t the way to go either…    There will always be screw ups, bad calls, & campaigns that fail. However, high speed chase victims outnumber bungled Swat operations by about a 100 to 1…    The philosophy of "I won’t bother you, if you don’t bother me…" just doesn’t have a place in law enforcement.                                                       Don

Response:

Is there really a difference between the two major parties?

Response:

Just who are those swat teams going to be used against. Here in Florida they call them out for a barking dog. The official explination is they need the practice or if they dont use them enough maybe some one will ask how much they cost. Problem with police swat teams is they think they are a spec. war group but they dont have the time and especially money to train that well so they arent as good as some think they are.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Right on Pete!  You must have see a lot of government work up close, although, the folks who like to be Comando Stormtroopers rarely mix hangovers, & shootin’ irons   However, getting the chance to act like a Ninja Warrior is a pretty rare thrill, & every outfit wants a piece of the action.  Imagine the fun of machine gun target practice when you don’t have to buy the shells!   Horrible as the thought may be,  it’s probably a good idea to have plenty of Swat Teams around – just in case we need them…                                                          Don

Response:

  Horrible as the thought may be,  it’s probably a good idea to have plenty of Swat Teams around – just in case we need them…

On the contrary, they are an ever-present danger to everybody. A case to point is the Ruby Ridge episode. An ATF agent named Birley (sp?) became angry at Weaver when he refused to snitch for him. The local sheriff already had a grudge because Weaver had run against him for sheriff and refused to let the sheriff use a right-of-way for sheep/cattle across Weaver’s land for tourists. So they manufactured a lie about Weaver being a Green Beret training skin heads to rob banks and called in the SWAT team to get even. Next thing we know a federal marshal and Weaver’s son and wife are dead and we are paying $2mil reparations. These were federal marshals and FBI’s HRT! Imagine a bunch of squirrels from IRS or BATF and you have another Waco.

Response:

  Right on Pete!  You must have see a lot of government work up close, although, the folks who like to be Comando Stormtroopers rarely mix hangovers, & shootin’ irons   However, getting the chance to act like a Ninja Warrior is a pretty rare thrill, & every outfit wants a piece of the action.  Imagine the fun of machine gun target practice when you don’t have to buy the shells!   Horrible as the thought may be,  it’s probably a good idea to have plenty of Swat Teams around – just in case we need them…                                                          Don

Response:

Gosh, Bob, I’ve already apologized and stated in a second message that I misspoke.  Try reading all of the threads before you bare your fangs, okay? Mike, CA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – DO NOT…. attempt to lay this at a Republican’s feet Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I., introduced the Handgun Safety and Registration Act, or S.2099, because "the police should not be limited in their ability to track down criminals."  This is Schumer and his group. Thanks for the heads up though. Robert a Republican sponsored bill now in the Senate Finance Committee.

Response:

My fault and apology Mike. Just scared me to death thinking that the Republicans had started acting like Democrats. Hope your weekend was a good one and thanks again for the alert. PS Really wasn’t fangs…. just shock…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gosh, Bob, I’ve already apologized and stated in a second message that I misspoke.  Try reading all of the threads before you bare your fangs, okay?

Response:

DO NOT…. attempt to lay this at a Republican’s feet Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I., introduced the Handgun Safety and Registration Act, or S.2099, because "the police should not be limited in their ability to track down criminals."  This is Schumer and his group. Thanks for the heads up though. Robert

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -a Republican sponsored bill now in the Senate Finance Committee.

Response:

.. a division of the IRS was practicing with automatic weapons. The range clerk said these agents are at .. raids where large amounts of cash are found… usually working with the FBI,…

Hmmmm …. Does this say they need machine guns to protect the $$$ from FBI???

Response:

.. a division of the IRS was practicing with automatic weapons. The range clerk said these agents are at .. raids where large amounts of cash are found… usually working with the FBI,… Hmmmm …. Does this say they need machine guns to protect the $$$ from FBI???

Betcha the reality is they have end of fiscal year money to spend (Use it or lose it, an underlying precept of govt and not-for-profit accounting and budgeting) and owed somebody some TDY and a chance to get away from the office.  I know USAF procurement folks who have been to those shooting schools, which makes even less sense.  Glad I don’t live nearby, ’cause I bet some of them have wicked hangovers and aren’t really paying attention…

Response:

Did they travel there by RV??? Tex Houston

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While at the range the other day, a division of the IRS was practicing on the rifle range with automatic weapons. Go figure. The range clerk said these IRS agents are at drug raids and other raids where large amounts of cash are found…they are usually working with the FBI, she said. Rob RVer, Boater, Gun Owner

Response:

While at the range the other day, a division of the IRS was practicing on the rifle range with automatic weapons. Go figure. The range clerk said these IRS agents are at drug raids and other raids where large amounts of cash are found…they are usually working with the FBI, she said.

It’s called an "instant audit".   ) — Don Dickson

Response:

While at the range the other day, a division of the IRS was practicing on the rifle range with automatic weapons. Go figure. The range clerk said these IRS agents are at drug raids and other raids where large amounts of cash are found…they are usually working with the FBI, she said.

I’ll give you one worse than that.  I was at an Atlanta area range a few  years ago and saw an EPA wannabe SWAT team practicing. Whathehell does the damned EPA need with ninja-clothed jackbooted thugs?  What are they going to do, machine-gun a 55 gallon drum?  I can see it now "Don’t drop that gum wrapper or we’ll shoot!".  After watching them shoot for a bit, I wasn’t too worried about them actually hitting anyone. — John De Armond http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd/ Cleveland, TN

Response:

NO – it was an RV they were using for target practice with those neat automatic weapons…  8^) — Gary – KJ6Q

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did they travel there by RV??? Tex Houston While at the range the other day, a division of the IRS was practicing on the rifle range with automatic weapons. Go figure. The range clerk said these IRS agents are at drug raids and other raids where large amounts of cash are found…they are usually working with the FBI, she said. Rob RVer, Boater, Gun Owner

Response:

You’re right, Bruce.  Sorry.  I experienced a brain f**t. Mike, CA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – S2099, a Republican sponsored bill< Ummm…..Mike? The Republicans don’t want to take away your 2nd amendment rights. The Republicans don’t want to tax your firearms. Please check and you’ll find that the bill in question is sponsored by Schumer, Lautenberg, et al. All gun grabbing Democrats! — Bruce Kirchner TRA L2 #5888       NAR #69850 Michigan Team 1   HUVARS Visit My Rocketry Home Page – http://members.aol.com/balthezar/index.html Proud Gun Owner!

Response:

While at the range the other day, a division of the IRS was practicing on the rifle range with automatic weapons. Go figure. The range clerk said these IRS agents are at drug raids and other raids where large amounts of cash are found…they are usually working with the FBI, she said. Rob RVer, Boater, Gun Owner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re right, Bruce.  Sorry.  I experienced a brain f**t. Mike, CA S2099, a Republican sponsored bill< Ummm…..Mike? The Republicans don’t want to take away your 2nd amendment rights. The Republicans don’t want to tax your firearms. Please check and you’ll find that the bill in question is sponsored by Schumer, Lautenberg, et al. All gun grabbing Democrats! — Bruce Kirchner TRA L2 #5888       NAR #69850 Michigan Team 1   HUVARS Visit My Rocketry Home Page – http://members.aol.com/balthezar/index.html Proud Gun Owner!

Response:

S2099, a Republican sponsored bill<

Ummm…..Mike? The Republicans don’t want to take away your 2nd amendment rights. The Republicans don’t want to tax your firearms. Please check and you’ll find that the bill in question is sponsored by Schumer, Lautenberg, et al. All gun grabbing Democrats! — Bruce Kirchner TRA L2 #5888       NAR #69850 Michigan Team 1   HUVARS Visit My Rocketry Home Page – http://members.aol.com/balthezar/index.html Proud Gun Owner!

Response:

To see one of the latest attempts at a National firearms registration program, this time through the IRS, go to http://www.senate.gov/ and perform a number search of S2099, a Republican sponsored bill now in the Senate Finance Committee. Then, for a plain language explanation of the bill, which, by the way, would also levy an additional tax on firearms, go to http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/s2099summary.htm . Mike, CA RVChem.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the heads up even if it is on the RV news group. If it were our first amendment right in debate here, people & the press would be up in arms. An appellate court is hearing the government’s appeal of U.S. v. Emerson, a Texas case resulting from a divorce action that resulted in Dr. Timothy Emerson being indicted by a federal grand jury.  Emerson was in violation of the Lautenberg Amendment – a local court had placed a restraining order against him, making it against federal law for him to possess a firearm. The above represents the position of the Clinton/Gore administration. No matter which side wins this appeal, the other will certainly appeal to the Supreme Court. If Gore is elected he will appoint Supreme Court Justices who support this position.

Response:

To see one of the latest attempts at a National firearms registration program, this time through the IRS, go to http://www.senate.gov/ and perform a number search of S2099, a Republican sponsored bill now in the Senate Finance Committee. Then, for a plain language explanation of the bill, which, by the way, would also levy an additional tax on firearms, go to http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/s2099summary.htm .

This bill is sponsored by Jack Reed, Democrat of Rhode Island; Jack Schumer, Democrat of nu yawk and Frank Lautenberg, Democrat of Nu Joesey.  Not a republican in sight. Glad to see you’re as accurate and careful in your political statements as you are about your sewer goop. John — John De Armond http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd/ Cleveland, TN

Response:

To see one of the latest attempts at a National firearms registration program, this time through the IRS, go to http://www.senate.gov/ and perform a number search of S2099, a Republican sponsored bill now in the Senate Finance Committee.

Since this Bill was introduced by Jack Reed, Dem from RI and co- sponsored by Frank Lautenburg, Dem, NJ, and Charles Schumer, Dem, NY, I wonder how you get the idea that it is republican sponsored?????? Is this a way to put down the Republican party or just an honest slip??? George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Then, for a plain language explanation of the bill, which, by the way, would also levy an additional tax on firearms, go to http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/s2099summary.htm . Mike, CA RVChem.net Thanks for the heads up even if it is on the RV news group. If it were our first amendment right in debate here, people & the press would be up in arms. An appellate court is hearing the government’s appeal of U.S. v. Emerson, a Texas case resulting from a divorce action that resulted in Dr. Timothy Emerson being indicted by a federal grand jury.  Emerson was in violation of the Lautenberg Amendment – a local court had placed a restraining order against him, making it against federal law for him to possess a firearm. The above represents the position of the Clinton/Gore administration. No matter which side wins this appeal, the other will certainly appeal to the Supreme Court. If Gore is elected he will appoint Supreme Court Justices who support this position.

Response:

Thanks for the heads up even if it is on the RV news group. If it were our first amendment right in debate here, people & the press would be up in arms. Being that it is our second amendment right being thrashed, which I might add guarantees the first…. no big deal right ? Go figure. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An appellate court is hearing the government’s appeal of U.S. v. Emerson, a Texas case resulting from a divorce action that resulted in Dr. Timothy Emerson being indicted by a federal grand jury.  Emerson was in violation of the Lautenberg Amendment – a local court had placed a restraining order against him, making it against federal law for him to possess a firearm. In April 1999, U.S. District Court Judge Sam Cummings ruled that this law was an unconstitutional infringement of the "individual right to bear arms." Cummings set aside the indictment, and in doing so, struck a grievous blow to the gun prohibitionists. Of course, the government appealed the decision. The following is from the transcript of oral arguments: Judge William L. Garwood: "You are saying that the Second Amendment is consistent with a position that you can take guns away from the public? You can restrict ownership of rifles, pistols and shotguns from all people? Is that the position of the United States?" Assistant U.S. Attorney William B. Mateja: "Yes." Garwood: "Is it the position of the United States that persons who are not in the National Guard are afforded no protections under the Second Amendment?" Mateja: "Exactly." Mateja then argued that even membership in the National Guard would not qualify an individual to possess firearms. Garwood: "Membership in the National Guard isn’t enough? What else is needed?" Mateja: "The weapon in question must be used IN the National Guard." The above represents the position of the Clinton/Gore administration. No matter which side wins this appeal, the other will certainly appeal to the Supreme Court. If Gore is elected he will appoint Supreme Court Justices who support this position.

Response:

The above represents the position of the Clinton/Gore administration. No

And just like 230 years ago, it will come down to blood. matter which side wins this appeal, the other will certainly appeal to

I wouldn’t bet on that yet.  In the past 65 years the feds have lost numerous such cases, but rather than risk establishing a national precedent, they have let the matter die at the district court level.  Of course, they do not advertise which laws are unenforcable in which districts.  :) the Supreme Court. If Gore is elected he will appoint Supreme Court Justices who support this position.

And that is the thought that keeps me awake wondering what further preparation I can do… sdb — More guns means less crime.  ISBN:0-226-49363-6  *** Watch out for munged e-mail address. User should be sylvan and host is cyberhighway.net. Do NOT send me unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE)!

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I don’t know what this has to do with RVing, but I do know that issues like this (and abortion, smoking and tire that loose their tread) are a result of the CIVIL-ization of our society. Unfortunately, the people and the press who yell so loudly, usually have very little practical knowledge. As a result they beat upon their brests and drums and gain an audience…. — Don & Jackie Justice at home Geeze this being retired is tough!        |      _,,,—,,_  ZZZzz /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_    Life’s purrrfect!       ‘—”(_/–’  `-’_) **RV tips and tricks<http://www.chesapeake.net/~justiced**

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Question:

I have not been able to obtain any Construction Co. references from Solomon or any of the resellers they gave me.  Are there any Solomon Construction user out there?

Response:

You probably already have the answer you are looking for. If neither Solomon nor their resellers can give you a Construction User reference, you are probably looking at the WRONG software for a construction business.  There are lots of good construction packages available – why not look at them?

Response:

Solomon along with RealWord address the vertical maket. Depending on the type of construction there are basic applications required such as Job Costing with manhours, material, subcontractsd, U/M. Lump Sum, equipment hours, quantity  and cost. Can your software project various units of cost, manhours, quantity etc? How is your general ledger structered?  Sub-accounts/phases? Does Solomon have Job % complete reporting? How do you apply your overhead?  What fixed costs/overhaed included in your estimate. You should have some type of billing program, example AIA. If you keep the Solomon software you can manage your costs with  additional software such as Primavera Project Planner and Primavera Expedition,  though I am not aware of an interface for these products with Solomn. You could even set an acceptable construction accounting system with QuickBooks Pro depending upon the size of the construction company and dollar volume. Dave Copenhaver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have not been able to obtain any Construction Co. references from Solomon or any of the resellers they gave me.  Are there any Solomon Construction user out there?

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Question:

> BTW- Sherry you would be very surprised about the many positive > outcomes I read about where SD is concerned.  They do outweigh the >negative.

No I wouldn’t be surprised at all and that fact overjoys me. But we must remember even those that are not affected seriously still have the illness and that fact alone brings changes to their lives and many times they seek support. Sometimes just the diagnosis sets you aside and you like to reconnect a bit by contacting others that are going through what you are or have already went through it. Plus just because their symptoms aren’t life threatening in no way means that they are any less important and bothersome to them. My most bothersome symptoms is actually my dry itchy skin and that is probably the less life threatening symptom I have. But it still is a problem and a nuisance for me and talking with others about it and hearing how they cope with it and what helps them really assists me in dealing with it in my life. The majority of communication online is really geared toward sharing, uplifting and inspiration. The medical material that is available is done so to merely make it available for them to read. They of course don’t take that as fact. They read it, investigate it and then speak with their own physicians about it. Nothing more is shared here that the patients couldn’t get their hands on in other areas so the risks involved with sharing it online are no more dangerous than the risks of it being printed in magazines, spoke about on television, discussed on radio, or printed in media articles. We all consume those things with caution so it is logical to say that everyone would read the material online with the same caution. This is merely common sense that most everyone has the ability to comprehend. — Love and Hugs From Sherry Messick Surviving Scleroderma http://www.SclerodermaSupport.com "Get Up, Stand Up and Fight to survive because Scleroderma Kicks you when you are down" "We are all Beacons Of Light for Each Other " Oprah Winfrey Tomorrow is promised to no one. Learn to say ‘I love you’…. Any way you can!          /       ____/_________       //////\\\    Have a Bewitching Halloween!!      ///  Q   Q \         ///     U    \    //     ___/    \

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Tiara82 wrote in message <19981015095719.27855.00001…@ng110.aol.com>… >     I have access to far more then I can post as my job is at risk but my >contacts are reliable and so are the medical databases that I work with.

Then, please cite sources.  It would be even more helpful if you can steer us to the source – online, library, whatever.

Response:

> You’re the one who is >fixated on taking credit, not I. >Ronni

I have nothing to take credit for however there are many that lurk in this area and then make phonecalls.  I have been called repeatedly so as long as there is something that is unclear and I am questioned I will do my best to clarify it.     My concerns are more related to medical info but this came up with it.  Ms. Weick will recieve the recognition she deserves.  All the fancy websites do not raise any funds for research.  The chats are  inaccurate which you proved with the survival statistics taken from one.        I have access to far more then I can post as my job is at risk but my contacts are reliable and so are the medical databases that I work with.      We always come back to the same old treatments and the same unreliable statistrics. There are two confirmed deaths that I am aware of due to the stem cell transplants.  One is even posted in Sherry’s site.  "Relaxin" which we are told is our next biggest hope has some side effects that have not been made public. Maybe this  is why Sharon Monsky  who was the first to try it never went public.       Lung disease which is the biggest killer among SD patients is still beig treated with cytoxan by most doctors.  Where is the progress???????  Of course money is needed but so is clearer representation  

Response:

X-NoArchive: Yes Tamara, I owe you no apologies or an accounting of my life.   As far as this going to Deja new…it’s o’k.  Why do you put my name on the top of a post which I did not write.  How clever of you.   The appropriate way to do this would have been just to Quote what I actually said.  It started with Applause. Stay out of everyones business and take care of your own.  You must have many medical records to go Through.  Next, address your sentiments to the real author of the text in which you were thrushed out of hiding and exposed.  I wish I could take credit for the work done and the well written post, but I can’t.  Sorry about that. Wendy (I hide from no one.  Same name , same me).

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tiara82 wrote: > > You’re the one who is fixated on taking credit, not I. > >Ronni > I have nothing to take credit for however there are many that lurk in this area > and then make phonecalls.  I have been called repeatedly so as long as there is > something that is unclear and I am questioned I will do my best to clarify it. >     My concerns are more related to medical info but this came up with it.  Ms. > Weick will recieve the recognition she deserves.  All the fancy websites do not > raise any funds for research.  The chats are  inaccurate which you proved with > the survival statistics taken from one. >      I have access to far more then I can post as my job is at risk but my > contacts are reliable and so are the medical databases that I work with. >      We always come back to the same old treatments and the same unreliable > statistrics. > There are two confirmed deaths that I am aware of due to the stem cell > transplants.  One is even posted in Sherry’s site.  "Relaxin" which we are told > is our next biggest hope has some side effects that have not been made public. > Maybe this  is why Sharon Monsky  who was the first to try it never went > public. >     Lung disease which is the biggest killer among SD patients is still beig > treated with cytoxan by most doctors.  Where is the progress???????  Of course > money is needed but so is clearer representation

Regarding your history on this newsgroup, you have no credibility, none, zilch, zero. Regarding your comments on drugs (other than your personal experiences), speaking for others is not acceptable. When giving information, e.g., dates, venues, attendees (and others’ alleged opinions), unless I were to hear it directly from the persons involved, e.g., Amy Burkett, Executive Director, SF Tri-State, it goes in one ear and out the other. Regarding your disdain for medical information offered by experienced patients, you should dig deep and provide articles and documentation to disprove what you read, or shut the hell up. If you dislike Sherry’s site or Teresa Testerman’s work, amongst the many others, get off your sorry backside and build your own. When you write of scleroderma patients being denied transplants with your doctor’s alleged (and callous) explanation that organs are wasted, put your money/time where your mouth is and do your research. And then post (along with links) so we can see where you’ve been and come to our own conclusions. Since you are not a doctor, nurse, lawyer, keep your nose out of others’ business and keep your amateur opinions to yourself. A PDR does not make you professional. You feel you have some ‘right’ to express alleged opinions from doctors and foundation members. Let them come online and speak for themselves. And shut your yap. And when you want newcomers to this group to read about how ‘important’ you are, wanting them to doubt the wisdom of support, there are enough pillars in this newsgroup community to expose you for the fool you truly are. When you so vehemently speak of others impersonating you, come up with the same unedited proof that I have seen where you have entered chat rooms impersonating Sherry. You are ignorant, a manipulator, a disrupter, a troublemaker and a harasser, as evidenced by the fact you were on probation for 2 years for mail fraud. As well, you used someone else’s Queens address to attempt to resubscribe to the digest on 8 July 1997 — and your subscription was denied based on your past threatening behavior. As you have said so many times before here, "I will not post to the group…" so go on then, get out. It’s obvious you don’t want to be here, the feeling is mutual — and you have nothing credible to offer now or in the future. I am addressing this post to all 62 screen names you have used, which include other people’s accounts from which you have signed on with, please pass the prunes: AOL:    User115827, Tiara82, Mia43, MiaFia40, Bluizcryn1, ToujoursOO,         JoyyH, Jayy96, JessMarie7, NYCornell7, Mia45, Sharyn27,         SharonG27, chaiya18, JonellH, Ld155, MSSDNY, MSMSSDNY, ME3656         CabalAgnt4 (not to be confused with the real Cabal Agent #1)         Mi…@aol.com, Mia53, Mia60, Mia62, Mia80, File00, SherryM,         Sher96, KaroleM36, NewDawn96, Miashadenuf, JonnellG,         Mia327, Mia404, Mia7650386, Mia207, Mia091, File27, Swann59,         Sue306, Life80, Cellis1940, Copyright43, Itbme46, Miriam,         JonellG, Annoyed43, Chiclets82, Mia906 Replay.com: Anon, nobody, BoredStiff, SoLongBuddy, WannaBePrez             YouAreBo…@YourProblem.com Sprintmail: Jane45, Jane27, Sharon27, SharonG27, Mia45, SFPrez

Response:

Tamara, Am I to understand your statement correctly? Did you say that you read other patient’s charts? You have access to these? And you sit there and read into other patients personal charts? Maybe I misread what you said but if that is what you said I don’t think that is right. That isn’t fair to the patients to have a total stranger unrelated to their treatment snooping into their medical records. I hope I misunderstood because that would be wrong of the hospital to allow it also. — Love and Hugs From Sherry Messick Surviving Scleroderma http://www.SclerodermaSupport.com "Get Up, Stand Up and Fight to survive because Scleroderma Kicks you when you are down" "We are all Beacons Of Light for Each Other " Oprah Winfrey Tomorrow is promised to no one. Learn to say ‘I love you’…. Any way you can!          /       ____/_________       //////\\\    Have a Bewitching Halloween!!      ///  Q   Q \         ///     U    \    //     ___/    \

Response:

Sherry, I am a utilization review specialist.  My job requires reading charts in order to assure the DRG ratings are billed properly.  You were recently an "in patient".  When you get your statement you will notice that you were not billed as per a daily rate.  Your billing is decided apon by your diagnosis, the procedures performed.  Each insurance company allows a specific amount days for "acute level of care" which determines how many days they will pay for your hospital stay.  Then if that is not considered enough your doctor will make a recommendation and your record will be reviewed to either approve or disprove this request.  Utilization review departments are regulated by the government and are present in every hospital.  It has been the law for many years now that all charts be reviewed.  The review also includes checking to see if the patient’s chart was kept up to date by the doctor.  So whatever I read I am required to do so.  To make it clearer  DRG means discharge related grouping. Acute level of care is the time needed as an in patient in a medically run facility.  The next step is ALT which means alternate level of care which would be a transfer to a rehabilitation facility if needed.  My department decides these items,  based   on the chart reviews Considering that you are covered by Champus I am very surprised at your lack of knowledge of this.  They are one of the most difficult insurances to get an extra day out of since they are a government agency.  Especially if your husband is no longer active duty getting a bandaid from them is like pulling teeth You did not misunderstand me.  In fact many hospitals actually sell mailing lists to various companies.  None of this is against the law.  The only criteria that I have to maintain is never to give out any of the information that I have the ability to obtain.  That would be a breach of privacy and would cost me my job.  That is the reason that I rarely am able to name the sources of alot of the info I have.   All I need is the particular hospital name and access code, a patient’s name and a date of admission and I can have their chart pulled.  That is merely the requirements of my job.  I would never print a patient’s name or medical history.  That is why I will not refer anyone to any articles and or  research papers that I became aware of during a review.  I believe it would be a felony.  Even if another hospital requests info they have to send a written  request signed by the patient. Tamara      

Response:

>Then, please cite sources.  It would be even more helpful if you can steer >us to the source – online, library, whatever.

Amie, What is found online is not up to date.  Much  of it from what I have recently seen  is rather misleading.      .  The newer info that I have had the ability to read is mainly from  patient’s charts.    You stated that you work in human resources so you can well understand that although I may read about some case histories to release where and who is just not possible.  I will say   that when the MTX study is complete for patients  like  myself it will offer a more difinitive way to choose  treatment.  My only fear is that this study will be tainted the same way almost all the others have been.   I have accessed some case histories that are what I feel more accurate then what I see online.  None of which have been put into print for public viewing.  The work I am doing makes them available to me.                         I do have my moments of insecurity about having SD but so much of it has just halted.  I am more afraid of my meds at this point in time. I wish I could point you to some articles but I have been dealing with actual case histories . My job requires the use of   certain portions.  However when I see a chart with a dx of SD I wind up reading as much as I can.  The curiosity is too much. Wishing you Good Health    Tamara

Response:

> If you have no objections I would love to know if Dr. Wigley has any > trouble getting reimbursement.  He obviously is not an every day VA doctor.  I > don’t see how these insurance companies ever were able to gain the ability to > charge per illness not per day.  

John Hopkins has a billing department. Dr. Wigley is paid no matter what. The billing department is the one that hassles with the insurance company not the Rheumatology clinic. — Love and Hugs From Sherry Messick Surviving Scleroderma http://www.SclerodermaSupport.com "Get Up, Stand Up and Fight to survive because Scleroderma Kicks you when you are down" "We are all Beacons Of Light for Each Other " Oprah Winfrey Tomorrow is promised to no one. Learn to say ‘I love you’…. Any way you can!          /       ____/_________       //////\\\    Have a Bewitching Halloween!!      ///  Q   Q \         ///     U    \    //     ___/    \

Response:

Dear Merri, Whatever you wish to speak to me about you can post it right here.  I will also be at Mt. Sinai on Sunday and hopefully you will be there too.  Being that you have had success with the antibiotic  protocol.  Also the bad experience with MTX you would have an enormous amount to share  at the end during the group discussions.        I am sorry but the only patients that I speak with are the ones that one of my doctors first screens then I am called by his/her office to see if I can handle the call.   Then I am given their number first.  My mail under this name is closed as the quality of what I had been receiving was unacceptable  and making a career out of contacting TOS is far too time consuming.  The time I spend here , and some will be happy will be shortened after this week.  I am adding some extra days to my work schedule.  However I have no intentions of leaving. Tamara

Response:

Sherry, I have never dealt with Tri Care.  Is it both  out patient and inpatient?  I have a Champus case that I recently had dumped on my desk that has been around since 1995!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I wonder if the pt. could have had Tri-care and the billing was done incorrectly.  Is that also known as "Champusing out"  I am hearing that term more and more and it makes for even more confusion.  The Military and managed care have instead of saving money made billing a nightmare and created a much more expensive billing system. Regards Tamara  BTW- Sherry you would be very surprised about the many positive outcomes I read about where SD is concerned.  They do outweigh the negative. The  biggest problem is self treatment. This is the one area where there is much unnecessary extra sickness  and from time to time a death.  I recall  Kate Knance had started an explanation  of HMOs on her site.  I don’t know if it was ever completed but I do see from many of the posts recently how treatment is delayed and also incorrect.  SD patients shouod not have to be shuttled between three or four "specialists" just to finally see a rheumatologist.  Also if a rheuim were seen in a timely fashion it could eliminate the use of biopsy procedures for many.  SD can be dx’d clinically by a good rheum.  A biopsy can infect and take well over a year to heal at the onset.

Response:

Tri-care is similar to an HMO. It is for inpatient and outpatient. It is merely an insurance plan you enter. Being retired or active duty shouldn’t make any difference when you are on Tri-care. They treat you according to what plan you have purchased and subscribed to. The fees are different for retirees and active duties members but otherwise the care is the same. The transition period for the changeover from champus to tri-care is a bit tangled for those of us with pre existing illnesses but our region has only changed over in the last few months. My understanding is that all regions now only use Tricare Not Champus. Champus doesn’t even exist anylonger. There is a Tri-care standard that is now the equivilent of the old Champus benefits. If you try to imput something to champus you will be brought aware of Tri-care very quickly. When you make the entries you will be notified I am sure. All champus beneficiaries would have now been notified of the change. After a certain date if they didn’t enroll in Tri-care they wouldn’t have medical coverage. I know in our area we were given a date that we had to have enrolled by or I would have had no medical coverage. Anyway that is the info on Tri-care. I am not certain that all regions have made the changeover but I am sure that the north east region has. The champus webpage has now changed over to Tri-care so I would assume the transition is finished at least on the changing over part of it. — Love and Hugs From Sherry Messick Surviving Scleroderma http://www.SclerodermaSupport.com "Get Up, Stand Up and Fight to survive because Scleroderma Kicks you when you are down" "We are all Beacons Of Light for Each Other " Oprah Winfrey Tomorrow is promised to no one. Learn to say ‘I love you’…. Any way you can!          /       ____/_________       //////\\\    Have a Bewitching Halloween!!      ///  Q   Q \         ///     U    \    //     ___/    \

Response:

Well true you doing your job isn’t against the law but if someone (not that you would do this) was to use her access abilities to get personal information (Such as SS numbers) than that would be illegal. You said it could be easily done by having simple basic information such as the hospital name that the person is being treated by, the hospital access code and basic patient info such as name. I don’t know what hospital you work at and I hope they do have security measures to protect against this happening. — Love and Hugs From Sherry Messick Surviving Scleroderma http://www.SclerodermaSupport.com "Get Up, Stand Up and Fight to survive because Scleroderma Kicks you when you are down" "We are all Beacons Of Light for Each Other " Oprah Winfrey Tomorrow is promised to no one. Learn to say ‘I love you’…. Any way you can!          /       ____/_________       //////\\\    Have a Bewitching Halloween!!      ///  Q   Q \         ///     U    \    //     ___/    \

Response:

Hi Tamara: It must be frightening to read things in others charts and then relate it to yourself.  I myself read a lot not necesarily on line but from medical books and most of the stuff I read I don’t relate it to myself,I just read it.for information. The things on-line too I just take what I find useful and then ask my Drs. about it.  If it weren’t for reading I wouldn’t have found out about cytoxan and I wouldn’t be in the stable condition I am in. My Drs. say I read too much.That is because I ask them to explain what I have read. I take reading breaks but always go back.Lets face it reading about SD is important to me.Someone might just say something I need. To share information and not mention the source that can be researched is to give no information at all. I think most of us just want the same thing, to be as well as we can be, for as long as possible. Thank you all for having this outlet for me to express my opinions. It really helps.   Gigi  

Response:

><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: New York Events >From: gramos3…@aol.com (GRamos3414) >Date: Thu, Oct 15, 1998 17:35 EDT >Message-id: <19981015173526.02584.00001…@ng01.aol.com> >Hi Tamara: >It must be frightening to read things in others charts and then relate it to >yourself. > I myself read a lot not necesarily on line but from medical books

Dear Gigi, I honestly find that by reading a chart I learn the most.  I am careful about what I read.  I try to read charts that belong to patients who are treated by reputable doctors and often my own. Most of the time I find the information reassuring.  Even the medical library in a teaching hospital can have out of date info.  Right now I am learning about the drugs evista and fosamax.  All I have researched has turned out to be exactly what my doctors have told me. This type of thing helps to reinforce my faith in my medical team.  Of course I have gotten myself into " trouble" while reading some charts.  .  My supervisor knows me already and it has turned in to a bit of a joke when I start to corner the rheum. residents.  All joking aside if we do not question absolutely everything we are cheating ourselves.  That is how I look at it.  Just as your research led you to cytoxan.  I am now ,researching the meds I mentioned as the PDR is not necessarily the last word.  I prefer to see actual patient histories and have been lucky to be able to do so. Be Well   Tamara

Response:

Sherry, Thank you for the info.  All the billing is done "tape to tape" which merely means from one  PC to another.  I don’t do that part.  I get the charts  after admission or if there is a change in status while a patient is still on an acute level but due to be discharged according to what the insurance co. says. It is a mess.  Champus has always delayed payment I wonder if our billing dept.  is aware of the change over.  It may not make a difference as the government is still the payer.     If you have no objections I would love to know if Dr. Wigley has any trouble getting reimbursement.  He obviously is not an every day VA doctor.  I don’t see how these insurance companies ever were able to gain the ability to charge per illness not per day.   I know you had asked if there were any safety measures to protect a patients privacy.  I don’t know if I answered but the answer is basically no.  It is in the hands of the person doing the work and their own ethics. .  On the other hand hospitals legally sell names, addresses and telephone numbers to companies for the sole purpose of being used for solicitation.  I don’t know where the law begins and personal ethics takeover. Many times I will get a call from a person stating that they were from another hospital and knew that we had a patient in common and they will request info.  We first ask for a medical release signed by the patient.  It is not a legal requirement as long as the person can prove by means of a provider code where they are from.  I feel that this is a very loose way to do this.  My hospital asks for the signed release. Regards  Tamara

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->There has been alot of talk about who does >what and credit being taken away from the people who organize these"NY Gala >Events".  Ronni was thanked for the work she is putting into this event.  In >reality.  her part of the foundation has nothing to do with it.  This event >is >being sponsored by a single individual form the Long Island Branch of the >Tri-State chapter. >    The Long Island division has always worked alone and will continue to do >so. >      Ronni I am surprised that you did not personally make this >announcement. >I hope it just slipped by you. Anyhow it will be announced on Sunday.  Very >little that happens in New York is the result of the Boston or Calif. >offices. >Even the New Jersey office is not always involved.  The Long Islaned branch >has >always had the help of Dr. Harry Spiera and he never goes online and,the >event >honoring Dr.Melone is being run by only one person and that is Joanie Weick. >She has been working for scleroderma research for fourteen years and does not >feel a need to pomote herself.  However this time I personally want it to be >known.  There has been mass confusion that even included our Pittsgutgh >guests. > .  Dr. Medsger is coming here independent of the foundation but to complete >some work with Dr. Spiera.  A three hour seminar would not be sufficient to >bring Dr. Medsger to NY. There is much going on in the research community >that >is kept quiet.  You will ask how I know this.  I asked and was told.  It >seemed >rather strange to me from what I know of Dr. Medsger for him to clear his >patient schedule for just this event. I wonder if his assistant is coming >along.  I highly doubt that he would close the clinic.  It is run seven days >a >week. >Tamara

For the last time, Sherry and I were referring to the two large fundraisers in NYC (May 1998, and April 1997).  I have no involvement whatsoever in the Long Island events you keep talking about or the educational seminar being held this weekend, with Drs. Spiera and Medsger, at Mt. Sinai.  You’re the one who is fixated on taking credit, not I. Ronni

Response:

>I have nothing to take credit for however there are many that lurk in this >area >and then make phonecalls.  I have been called repeatedly so as long as there >is >something that is unclear and I am questioned I will do my best to clarify >it.

Hi Tiara82,    I would like to call you what is you number ?  Please feel free to e-mail it to me . I have many questions for you Thank you,          soc…@aol.com

Response:

Actually Champus isn’t widely used any longer for military. The majority of regions have now switched to Tri-Care. I think you just gave us clear explanations for many things we have been wondering about. Thanks — Love and Hugs From Sherry Messick Surviving Scleroderma http://www.SclerodermaSupport.com "Get Up, Stand Up and Fight to survive because Scleroderma Kicks you when you are down" "We are all Beacons Of Light for Each Other " Oprah Winfrey Tomorrow is promised to no one. Learn to say ‘I love you’…. Any way you can!          /       ____/_________       //////\\\    Have a Bewitching Halloween!!      ///  Q   Q \         ///     U    \    //     ___/    \

Response:

> I know you had asked if there were any safety measures to protect a patients > privacy.  I don’t know if I answered but the answer is basically no.  It is in > the hands of the person doing the work and their own ethics.

yea that is what concerns me actually. — Love and Hugs From Sherry Messick Surviving Scleroderma http://www.SclerodermaSupport.com "Get Up, Stand Up and Fight to survive because Scleroderma Kicks you when you are down" "We are all Beacons Of Light for Each Other " Oprah Winfrey Tomorrow is promised to no one. Learn to say ‘I love you’…. Any way you can!          /       ____/_________       //////\\\    Have a Bewitching Halloween!!      ///  Q   Q \         ///     U    \    //     ___/    \

Response:

Sherry, What may seem like common sense to us is not always viewed that way by many patients.  I have seen the results of patients, and not just SD patients who have no insurance or money and treat themselves.  They base it on any media device as you said.  It is not limited to the computer.  It is an all around problem.  I just happen to see the end results of medical mismanagement all to often.

Response:

Tiara82 wrote in message <19981016124942.25148.00001…@ng03.aol.com>…

<snip> I think you just demonstrated what kind of person you are. First, by falsely attributing one post to another person, then revealing not only a person’s medical history online, but details of their personal life, including their insurance provider. Slightly illegal, totally unethical. I will be considering informing your employers that you are using your position to fulfill your personal agenda, and request that an investigation into your actions be undertaken. good day. —– Cabal Agent #1 Eric Keman- The world’s first Artificial Stupidity program?

Response:

Wendy, I think the following deserved a full reprint and will appear in "Deja news" for all to view.  It seems that whether it is me or anyone else if a different idea is presented here or in another scleroderma site immediate fear sets in.   responding posts instead of being contradictory  are WELCOME  but the outcry has been  nasty and backed up with childish games. Name calling and the use of filthy language only degrade the user.   You can say what you wish about me and you and the other two or,three must have all day every day to do so.  Either scleroderma has made you so ill that this is all you have in life ( I sincerely hope this is not the case )  or you are so terrified by the fact that a new approach is suggested that you spend all your time on me.  You say you are "retired". Well why don’t you take the time you spend attempting to remove my credibility and do some volunteer work.  If you notice the time of day I post it will become obvious that I am up early and on my way to work and school. Scleroderma is chroninc but in almost every case will allow us to meet our potential and continue with our lives.  Anger and fear will steal that away, not the illness.  I hope you have not succumbed.  Try to rethink the time that you spend on me and redirect it to help do a fundraiser for Scleroderma Research in your area.  If that is too demanding, and it is a very demanding undertaking at least spend the time and ability you have to write and do an article on scleroderma. send it to your local news paper to promote awareness. Sincerely Tamara. THE FOLLOWING WAS REPRINTED BY "WENDY"  AKA  "PHOENIX 40" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: New York Events >From: phoeni…@aol.com (Phoenix40) >Date: Fri, Oct 16, 1998 00:31 EDT >Message-id: <19981016003119.14619.00000…@ng121.aol.com> >X-No-Archive: Yes >>Regarding your history on this newsgroup, you have no credibility, none, >>zilch, zero. >>Regarding your comments on drugs (other than your personal experiences), >>speaking for others is not acceptable. >>When giving information, e.g., dates, venues, attendees (and others’ >>alleged opinions), unless I were to hear it directly from the persons >>involved, e.g., Amy Burkett, Executive Director, SF Tri-State, it goes >>in one ear and out the other. >>Regarding your disdain for medical information offered by experienced >>patients, you should dig deep and provide articles and documentation to >>disprove what you read, or shut the hell up. >>If you dislike Sherry’s site or Teresa Testerman’s work, amongst the >>many others, get off your sorry backside and build your own. >>When you write of scleroderma patients being denied transplants with >>your doctor’s alleged (and callous) explanation that organs are wasted, >>put your money/time where your mouth is and do your research. And then >>post (along with links) so we can see where you’ve been and come to our >>own conclusions. >>Since you are not a doctor, nurse, lawyer, keep your nose out of others’ >>business and keep your amateur opinions to yourself. A PDR does not make >>you professional. >>You feel you have some ‘right’ to express alleged opinions from doctors >>and foundation members. Let them come online and speak for themselves. >>And shut your yap. >>And when you want newcomers to this group to read about how ‘important’ >>you are, wanting them to doubt the wisdom of support, there are enough >>pillars in this newsgroup community to expose you for the fool you truly >>are. >>When you so vehemently speak of others impersonating you, come up with >>the same unedited proof that I have seen where you have entered chat >>rooms impersonating Sherry. >>You are ignorant, a manipulator, a disrupter, a troublemaker and a >>harasser, as evidenced by the fact you were on probation for 2 years for >>mail fraud. As well, you used someone else’s Queens address to attempt >>to resubscribe to the digest on 8 July 1997 — and your subscription was >>denied based on your past threatening behavior. >>As you have said so many times before here, "I will not post to the >>group…" so go on then, get out. It’s obvious you don’t want to be >>here, the feeling is mutual — and you have nothing credible to offer >>now or in the future. >>I am addressing this post to all 62 screen names you have used, which >>include other people’s accounts from which you have signed on with, >>please pass the prunes: >>AOL:    User115827, Tiara82, Mia43, MiaFia40, Bluizcryn1, ToujoursOO, >>        JoyyH, Jayy96, JessMarie7, NYCornell7, Mia45, Sharyn27, >>        SharonG27, chaiya18, JonellH, Ld155, MSSDNY, MSMSSDNY, ME3656 >>        CabalAgnt4 (not to be confused with the real Cabal Agent #1) >>        Mi…@aol.com, Mia53, Mia60, Mia62, Mia80, File00, SherryM, >>        Sher96, KaroleM36, NewDawn96, Miashadenuf, JonnellG, >>        Mia327, Mia404, Mia7650386, Mia207, Mia091, File27, Swann59, >>        Sue306, Life80, Cellis1940, Copyright43, Itbme46, Miriam, >>        JonellG, Annoyed43, Chiclets82, Mia906 >>Replay.com: Anon, nobody, BoredStiff, SoLongBuddy, WannaBePrez >>            YouAreBo…@YourProblem.com >>Sprintmail: Jane45, Jane27, Sharon27, SharonG27, Mia45, SFPrez >I see the APPLAUSE SIGN is on and blinking, and I hear the clapping from the >crowded room. >Well done and well said SirLaffs. >Take your bow and there is an encore.  More applause. ></PRE></HTML>

Response:

There is a fundraiser coming up shortly honoring Dr. Melone the hand surgeon. I spoke to the coordinator last night and since she does not have a PC I offered to set the record straight.  There has been alot of talk about who does what and credit being taken away from the people who organize these"NY Gala Events".  Ronni was thanked for the work she is putting into this event.  In reality.  her part of the foundation has nothing to do with it.  This event is being sponsored by a single individual form the Long Island Branch of the Tri-State chapter.     The Long Island division has always worked alone and will continue to do so.       Ronni I am surprised that you did not personally make this announcement. I hope it just slipped by you. Anyhow it will be announced on Sunday.  Very little that happens in New York is the result of the Boston or Calif. offices. Even the New Jersey office is not always involved.  The Long Islaned branch has always had the help of Dr. Harry Spiera and he never goes online and,the event honoring Dr.Melone is being run by only one person and that is Joanie Weick. She has been working for scleroderma research for fourteen years and does not feel a need to pomote herself.  However this time I personally want it to be known.  There has been mass confusion that even included our Pittsgutgh guests.  .  Dr. Medsger is coming here independent of the foundation but to complete some work with Dr. Spiera.  A three hour seminar would not be sufficient to bring Dr. Medsger to NY. There is much going on in the research community that is kept quiet.  You will ask how I know this.  I asked and was told.  It seemed rather strange to me from what I know of Dr. Medsger for him to clear his patient schedule for just this event. I wonder if his assistant is coming along.  I highly doubt that he would close the clinic.  It is run seven days a week. Tamara

Response:

> On the other > hand hospitals legally sell names, addresses and telephone numbers to companies > for the sole purpose of being used for solicitation.  I don’t know where the > law begins and personal ethics takeover. Many times I will get a call from a > person stating that they were from another hospital and knew that we had a > patient in common and they will request info.  We first ask for a medical > release signed by the patient.  It is not a legal requirement as long as the > person can prove by means of a provider code where they are from.  I feel that > this is a very loose way to do this.  My hospital asks for the signed release.

Yes but if the person working in records obtain this information and use it for their own agenda such as posting it publically then the patient has a legal issue they could take up. As you said the ethics of the person is required to be without tarnish. Unfortunately that isn’t always the case and these people should be investigated if there is a reason brought to their supervisors attention. — Love and Hugs From Sherry Messick Surviving Scleroderma http://www.SclerodermaSupport.com "Get Up, Stand Up and Fight to survive because Scleroderma Kicks you when you are down" "We are all Beacons Of Light for Each Other " Oprah Winfrey Tomorrow is promised to no one. Learn to say ‘I love you’…. Any way you can!          /       ____/_________       //////\\\    Have a Bewitching Halloween!!      ///  Q   Q \         ///     U    \    //     ___/    \

Response:

Question:

I heard a new story today that said there is a report in the Journal "Science" that a gene has been located which is associated with persons with anxiety. They also mentioned a chemical which was associated with the gene which apparently triggered the anxiety. These news stories are so brief – and I always want to avoid getting my hopes up to high… but it sounds so promising. Has anyone else heard more about this?

Response:

I heard a new story today that said there is a report in the Journal "Science" that a gene has been located which is associated with persons with anxiety. They also mentioned a chemical which was associated with the gene which apparently triggered the anxiety. These news stories are so brief – and I always want to avoid getting my hopes up to high… but it sounds so promising. Has anyone else heard more about this?

I have not read the article yet, but it seems that the discovery involves only *one* gene.  It appears that there are *many* genes involved in the expression and regulation of anxiety (which isn’t surprising, because that is the case with a lot of genetic disorders), so it is a big discovery, but as far as practical applications in treatment, they have ways to go yet. But it’s a start.  As the understanding of the brain improves, we might start seeing a "snowball" effect, with effective treatments on the horizon by the middle of the next decade.  This is just my speculation, of course.  In the meantime, there are effective medications out there that can greatly help. Andre

Response:

HI folks, Here’s a copy of the article that was in the NY Times that I gleened off another newsgroup. Bill November 29, 1996           People Long on Neuroticism Appear to Be           Short on a Gene           By NATALIE ANGIER                hey are the type of people who own a one-sided bed: the                wrong side. They’re often anxious, grumpy and                self-pitying, viewing the past with regret, the present           with suspicion and the future with dread. The traditional tag           for them is neurotic, but a better word is kvetch.           Now it seems that people who are prone to anxiety and           pessimism may have drawn a short stick, genetically speaking.           Scientists have discovered a modest but measurable link           between anxiety-related behavior and the gene that controls           the brain’s ability to use serotonin, an essential           neurochemical.           They have found that individuals who have a slightly           abbreviated version of the gene for the so-called serotonin           transporter rate higher in negative thoughts and feelings than           those with a relatively long rendition of the gene.           The scientists emphasize that the impact of the transporter           gene on behavior is quite small, accounting for only about 4           percent of the difference in people’s tendency toward           neuroticism. They suspect that anywhere from 9 to 14 other           genes, as well as many environmental factors that have yet to           be sorted out, come into play in making one person anxious,           another calm.           "You wouldn’t know anything about somebody’s personality just           by looking at this gene in isolation," said Dr. Dennis L.           Murphy of the National Institute of Mental Health.           Nevertheless, he added, "it does seem to be connected in a           small way to anxiety."           Murphy, Dr. Dean H. Hamer of the National Cancer Institute,           Dr. Klaus-Peter Lesch of the University of Wuerzburg in           Germany, and their colleagues present their results in           Friday’s issue of the journal Science.           Serotonin, famed as the target of Prozac and other           antidepressants, is a so-called neurotransmitter, relaying           signals from one brain cell to the next. It helps orchestrate           fundamental tasks like eating, sleeping and movement, and also           affects mood and thought. The serotonin transporter is a           separate molecule that allows nerve cells to respond to the           serotonin surrounding them.           The new study was designed to look at garden-variety           neuroticism, not the extreme sort of anxiety found in panic           disorder and other mental illnesses.           Its finding marks the second time that researchers have           associated a gene with a normal human personality trait.           Earlier this year, scientists announced a link between a taste           for novelty and excitement, and a gene involved in the           activity of dopamine, another of the brain’s           neurotransmitters.           The work on novelty-seeking has come under fire lately from           some scientists, but the new study on neuroticism and the           serotonin transporter is considered more persuasive on a           number of counts.           For one thing, the study is quite large. More than 500 people           took part in it, the majority of them young, white, male           college students.           To determine the degree of the participants’ anxiety and           neuroticism, the researchers had them fill out personality           questionnaires in which they noted the strength with which           they agreed or disagreed with statements like "I am not a           worrier," or "Frightening thoughts sometimes come into my           head."           The scientists also took samples of the participants’ blood,           from which genetic material was extracted. They found that           those with the short type of the transporter gene scored           higher on the neuroticism scale than those with the long form,           while other personality traits, like extroversion or           agreeableness, were not linked to the gene.           But the new study offers more than a statistical association           between a gene type and a behavior. Of great importance, that           association is buttressed by biochemical evidence. The           researchers found that the difference in the two transporter           genes occurs in a particular spot, called the promoter, which           serves as the gene’s on-off switch. In the long version, an           extra bit of genetic material is stuck within the promoter. In           the short variant, the promoter lacks that DNA insertion.           Often, the presence or absence of a few genetic subunits makes           no difference in the performance of a gene. In this case, it           does. The scientists determined that the short promoter is           relatively weak and that the gene therefore pumps out           relatively few copies of the transporter molecule within           neurons of the brain.           By contrast, the long promoter is robust, allowing the gene to           churn forth 1.7 times the number of transporter molecules as           its diminutive counterpart produces. The more transporters a           nerve cell has at its disposal, the better the cell can react           to serotonin.           In other words, the two forms of the gene do not just look           different, they act differently, which would explain why the           possession of one or the other would, in a minor way,           influence a person’s temperament.           Because of the functional distinctiveness of the two variants,           Dr. David Goldman of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse           and Alcoholism said in an interview, "the data look exciting           and convincing."           Goldman wrote a commentary in Science to accompany the new           report. He also participated in a study published this month           rebutting the connection between dopamine and novelty-seeking,           and is known jokingly among his colleagues as Dr. No. His           praise for the new work, therefore, is seen as another point           in its favor.           Still, the transporter gene is but a brief paragraph in the           tale of neurosis. After all, with just two promoter variants           to choose from, the gene cannot account for the wide range in           fretfulness, pessimism and anxiety seen in any given cluster           of people.           As it turns out, most people — nearly 70 percent — have the           less vigorous and more anxiety-provoking version of           transporter output.           The skewed distribution of gene formats could reflect natural           selection at work, said Dr. Una D. McCann, who studies anxiety           disorders at the National Institute of Mental Health. Were it           not for a bit of fretful wariness on the part of our           ancestors, Dr. McCann said, they might never have survived the           odd encounter with a python, a leopard or a rapacious           neighbor.           "Anxiety is there for a really good reason," she said. "It’s           one of the things that is part of our genes because it’s           protective."           And while feeling tense and peevish may not be much fun,           evolution cares nothing for our amusement, but only whether we           survive long enough to breed.

Response:

** Two articles. One, see the thread "11/28 NIH Report Genes/Anxiety." When I went over it again, I found that the NIH report was worded more cautiously than many posts to this NG Following is the Associated Press report: (pay attention to the last sentence) AP report: Washington-Part of the difference between a person who worries and frets and one who approaches life with a laid-back attitude may be a gene that contorls the effects of a brain chemical, researchers say. A new study that probed the personalities of 505 people found those with one variation of a gene called 5-HTTP are more anxious than people with another form, though the difference is slight. Dr. Dennis Murphy of the NIMH, senior author of a study in today’s Science, said the research gives strong evidence that 5-HTTP influences how the brain makes use of serotonin, a neurotransmitter, or signaling molecule, that affects the sense of well-being. "Serotonin is thought to modulate anxiety in humans and in animals," Murphy said. "Many of the drugs, such as Prozac, that treat anxiety and depression act primarily on the serotonin system in the brain." Murphy said 5-HTTP is a so-called transporter gene because it determines the rate at which serotonin signals are cycled between neurons. The cycling rate of serotonin is reduced in people with a short form of the gene. As a result, people with a short form are more anxious than people with the long form, he said. But Murphy said the influence "is small," which means other genes play a role in mood. Dr. Dean H. Hamer, co-author of the study, said the gene’s effect is only a "tendency" and not a total determination of mood or personality. And the range of difference is what is seen in ordianary people, not in those who require medical care. More research on the effect of genes may lead to diagnostic tests that would enable doctors to precisely target mood-altering drugs. Now, Hamer said, doctors often use drugs on a trial-and-error basis. — Used wisely, your 2

Question:

I am not defending insurance companies, but they have to assess the risk before calculating a premium.   That’s a nice pipe dream, but not how insurance companies determine auto insurance premiums.  The algorithm is, "How much can we get away with?" dave ( currently consulting for the largest underwriter of personal auto insurance… aka ‘behind enemy lines’ ) — David Hillman                       ( 1991 Alfa Romeo 164L. AROC, NMA )

Well David… As since you are "begind the enemy lines" Why dont u sneak in a nice low amount a certain Scot would have to pay for a certain 300zx : -Scot

Response:

I am not defending insurance companies, but they have to assess the risk before calculating a premium.

   That’s a nice pipe dream, but not how insurance companies determine auto insurance premiums.  The algorithm is, "How much can we get away with?" dave ( currently consulting for the largest underwriter of personal auto insurance… aka ‘behind enemy lines’ ) — David Hillman                           ( 1991 Alfa Romeo 164L. AROC, NMA )    

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok.. I will admit.. I am young… (21) in college, but I also work.. have a damn good job.. and am responsable.. (esp when driving) I want a 300zx.. Probably lease it.. if I get it.. I test drove a 95.. and I love it.. I would be paying 3306 per year on it.. Anyone out there wanna give me advice as on where to turn to get better insurance at a better cost? (that was with geico.. the WORST insurance company EVER.. ) Thanks.. Scot – Ducati 900ssscr and maybe a 300zx soon? PS – Dont flame the geico comment.. if you like geico.. fine.. stay with them.. I am not interested any any more comments… Just wait till you get ***1*** speeding ticket and drop you.. * NOTE * I am 21, In college as I said, Have a job about 30 miles from me .. I work 3 days a week.. have 1 roomate.. no points, no accidents.. Those were some of the questions that geico asked.. none of them make sence to me as what they have to do with insurance.. but oh well..

Actually, the questions they ask do make sense – it is called "underwriting". The insurer has to know all the facts before assessing the level of risk in "underwriting" your car and your yourself. Why would an insurer ask you if you work? So they know how far of a commute it is between work and home – longer commutes may mean greater risk of accidents, which may mean higher premiums.  Age is obvious, as is the number accidents, claims and tickets. The roomate question is in regard to who has access to the car – regardless if they have permission to drive the car. I am not defending insurance companies, but they have to assess the risk before calculating a premium. Why not pickup the yellow pages and call or visit at least 10 agents/brokers and get quotes from them. It pays to shop around. My wife and I had quotes ranging from $1200 to $1800 per year on our new Sunfire. As you see, we saved $600. Force the companies to give you their preferred rate. Because my wife is under 25 several companies tried to con us by saying that she should be the primary driver of the car and me, age 28, the secondary driver, thus accounting for the above $1800 quote. I don’t think so. The company I did sign with (Co-operators – In Canada) rated me as 90% and my wife as 10% in terms of driving time, thus, saving us some big bucks, since my record has been clean over the past 6 years. — Yours truly, Adam Szymczak, BA               Master of Arts in Geography (Urban Planning)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ok.. I will admit.. I am young… (21) in college, but I also work.. have a damn good job.. and am responsable.. (esp when driving) I want a 300zx.. Probably lease it.. if I get it.. I test drove a 95.. and I love it.. I would be paying 3306 per year on it.. Anyone out there wanna give me advice as on where to turn to get better insurance at a better cost? (that was with geico.. the WORST insurance company EVER.. ) Scot – Ducati 900ssscr and maybe a 300zx soon? PS – Dont flame the geico comment.. if you like geico.. fine.. stay with them.. I am not interested any any more comments… Just wait till you get ***1*** speeding ticket and drop you..

Scot, With the combined factors of your age and the price & sportiness of a 300ZX, I think you’re destined to pay a lot.  I have a ‘91 300ZX and pay $700/yr, but I’m quite a bit older than you.  Since at least ‘91 the cars have been changed very little, so you might want to look for a clean one a few years old – cheaper and lower insurance. I use GM’s insurance company, Motors Insurance, since I work for a GM subsidiary.  You can call them at 800-642-6464; I’m not sure if they cover non-GM cars for non-employees.  If you have a military connection, USAA is said to have very low rates. You’re quite right about GEICO – they are the antichrist of insurance companies.  They are rabidly anti-speed: they will not insure sport motorcycles, and if you are foolish enough to admit to owning a radar detector, they refuse to insure you.  I believe they also donate radar equipment to police units. —   Dave Hartner    ’90 ZX-11     AMA   360353                                 DoD   1702                                   NMA   109938                                   PftAW 299453  

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Ok.. I will admit.. I am young… (21) in college, but I also work.. have a damn good job.. and am responsable.. (esp when driving) I want a 300zx.. Probably lease it.. if I get it.. I test drove a 95.. and I love it.. I would be paying 3306 per year on it.. Anyone out there wanna give me advice as on where to turn to get better insurance at a better cost? (that was with geico.. the WORST insurance company EVER.. ) Thanks.. Scot – Ducati 900ssscr and maybe a 300zx soon? PS – Dont flame the geico comment.. if you like geico.. fine.. stay with them.. I am not interested any any more comments… Just wait till you get ***1*** speeding ticket and drop you.. * NOTE * I am 21, In college as I said, Have a job about 30 miles from me .. I work 3 days a week.. have 1 roomate.. no points, no accidents.. Those were some of the questions that geico asked.. none of them make sence to me as what they have to do with insurance.. but oh well..

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