Question:

Hi, I’m preparing a business plan for my new business. How do I account for construction cost needed to build out my space (general contracting) on the balance sheet? All construction will be finished when I open, so there’ll be nothing in progress. By what name do I call this account? And would I depreciate it over the term of the lease? Thanks.

Response:

Hi, I’m preparing a business plan for my new business. How do I account for construction cost needed to build out my space (general contracting) on the balance sheet? All construction will be finished when I open, so there’ll be nothing in progress. By what name do I call this account? And would I depreciate it over the term of the lease? Thanks.

It’s an asset…..Leasehold Improvements. They are depreciated over close to 40 years, not over the lease term. (they figure you’re not going to sink a quarter mill into a property you plan to abandon in 12 months). Try to stick anything that’s moveable into Furniture, Fixtures, Equipment types of accounts. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA taxman at negia.net

Response:

You are doing your own renovations to an office space you lease? Then that is called "leasehold improvements" and it is an asset which depreciates, in Canada, over 7 years.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m preparing a business plan for my new business. How do I account for construction cost needed to build out my space (general contracting) on the balance sheet? All construction will be finished when I open, so there’ll be nothing in progress. By what name do I call this account? And would I depreciate it over the term of the lease? Thanks.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are doing your own renovations to an office space you lease? Then that is called "leasehold improvements" and it is an asset which depreciates, in Canada, over 7 years. Hi, I’m preparing a business plan for my new business. How do I account for construction cost needed to build out my space (general contracting) on the balance sheet? All construction will be finished when I open, so there’ll be nothing in progress. By what name do I call this account? And would I depreciate it over the term of the lease? Thanks.

In the USA it’s generally 39 years. I think I’d rather use the Canadian rules…

Response:

Question:

  It sounded like a classic case of "get-there-itus".

Bullsquat. Get-there-itus is when you press on despite deteriorating conditions.  Smart flying is knowing when to park it.  There’s a fine line between the two sometimes but sounds like Jay did the best he could with the information he had. — Jim Fisher

Response:

Another great post Jay.  Glad you and the family made it home safely (especially with those all important stuffed animals…been there/done that with my daughter). — Jack Allison PP-ASEL "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return"  - Leonardo Da Vinci

Response:

Jay, another great post about a real cross-country VFR trip.  Too bad the aviation magazines don’t print stuff like this. —

Response:

Good reporting on the whole trip, made for some excellent reading. I was at S&F on Thursday and Saturday but did not succeed in bumping into any of the other news group folks.  I should have done some hunting through the camping areas! As for the Florida flying, now you know why we Floridians typically start our flights early, especially when heading up through the southeast on a long flight, and plan to stop flying by early afternoon.  While you got caught in a frontal system, we do commonly get predictable and healthy thunderstorms in the afternoons. Glad to hear you made it safely, JimC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have now realized that one of the best attributes of Sun N Fun is the fact that it takes place in the springtime — before summer. While this may seem pretty obvious, it carries for me a deeper meaning. When I leave Oshkosh each year, it is always with a tinge of melancholy, as I know that it marks the end of the warmth of summer, and the beginning of fall.  All the anticipation and joy of our annual pilgrimage to the Mecca of flight inevitably ends with the bittersweet closure of knowing that it will be an entire YEAR before we get to once again mingle with so many like-minded individuals in that aviation womb we call "Oshkosh"… Sun N Fun, on the other hand, carries none of that baggage.  In fact, on our taxi out to the runway for departure, we experienced the joyous revelation that this was not the end, but the *beginning* of the airshow season, and we soared into the sky knowing that our summer was still on the horizon — not drifting away in our past.  It was a really, really good feeling, and one that I would like to feel again next year! However, after our flight home this year, I may have some difficulty convincing Mary to try this one again.  I’m not even sure I’d want to try it again myself, truth be told.  But I’m ahead of myself. The prog charts for Saturday and Sunday made it clear that Saturday was the best day to depart.  Waiting until Sunday — our preferred course of action — would mean almost certain failure, as a major winter storm was building in the Rockies, and would soon be engulfing the Great Plains. So, it was with a heavy heart that we decided to bail out a day early, and head for home… However, in a last, defiant nod to the joys of Sun N Fun, we decided to wait until after breakfast on Saturday to break camp.  This would mean flying half-way home on Saturday, and pushing on the rest of the way Sunday, beating the storm into Iowa by a good 12 hours.  This decision nearly proved our undoing… After saying our goodbyes to friends and new acquaintances (Walt Porter, BTW, of this newsgroup, actually managed to find our campsite on Friday night!  Sadly, Mary and I were so beat from the day’s exertions that we were truly lousy hosts.  Worse, we had drank all the beer ourselves before Walt arrived!  Still, it was great to finally meet Walt in person, and we hope to hook up "for real" again soon — maybe at Oshkosh?), we headed back to the site, planning to quickly break camp and depart. Well, nothing happens quickly in 85 degree heat, in the blazing hot sun — especially when the F-117 Stealth Fighter shows up for several high speed fly-bys!  That danged little black jet went RIGHT over our tent at the end of RWY 9 — so of course we had to stand in awe as it raced up and down the runway… Long story short, we didn’t get the engine started until noon — and then we had to get gas.  (Due to the soft grass, the fuel truck wasn’t making "house calls" this year.  Instead, you had to taxi to them for gas.)   This turned out to be fairly time consuming, as the local yokel doing the pumping was not exactly the quickest deer in the meadow.   But, eventually we were on our way. Departing Lakeland was simplicity itself. Simply listen to ATIS, taxi to the active, follow the flagmen — and away you go!  From gas to departure couldn’t have taken five minutes — certainly better than any Oshkosh departure we’ve done.   Soon we were climbing up to our cruising altitude of 4500 feet, headed northwest under a high overcast… Within 50 miles, however, our high overcast began coming down.  Soon we were forced down to 3800, then 3200.  Before long, to remain clear of clouds, we were down to 2500, and the visibility was starting to suffer.  Long tendrils of virga were clearly visible ahead, and it became clear that the "broken" line of thunderstorms in our path were starting to consolidate. After a quick consultation with Flight Service, we decided to fly northwesterly along the Gulf of Mexico shoreline up to the Tallahassee area, and to try to do a "left-hook" around the western edge of the storms. Once through this backside gap, it should be clear sailing as far north as we cared to fly for the evening…   This evaluation was confirmed with Jacksonville Approach, who was "painting" weather ahead for us throughout the flight. Well, the ceiling just kept coming down, visibility was varying from 3 to 5 miles in light rain, and the boys at Flight Watch were soon singing a different tune.  It seemed the "gap" west of Tallahassee had filled into a thunderstorm with tops to FL 390!   Flying along in a more northerly direction, heading inland from the Gulf, trying to keep the storm well west of our position, we proceeded to follow the clear areas, dodging rain showers and becoming increasingly dismayed as our ceiling simply kept coming down, and down, and down. Eventually, just 20 miles from Tallahassee, I was forced to descend to only 700 AGL to remain clear of clouds, with rain showers visible in all quadrants around me.  It was time to do a 180, and we headed back to the last airport we had seen — a place called Perry-Foley, in little Perry, Florida. Informing Jacksonville Approach of my changed intentions, and the reasons for it, "our" controller pitched in completely, volunteering information on weather conditions ahead and behind, current conditions at Perry, etc.  It was obvious that he was accustomed to this kind of stuff happening in the tropical Florida build-ups, and he commented that we really should have departed earlier to avoid the afternoon heating… Smart too late for us… Within a few miles, conditions had improved to legal VFR again, and we proceeded uneventfully back to Perry, where we joined a group of nine other stranded "fellow travelers" from Sun N Fun.  While most were VFR pilots like us, several were IFR certified — which made Mary and I feel better about our decision to "wimp out" on the flight.  We all shared our tales of woe, and how we had fought the good fight trying to find that ever-elusive (and closing) gap in the line… It soon became obvious that there was absolutely NOTHING at Perry-Foley airport.  A nice facility, with three large WWII-looking runways, it was nevertheless largely deserted, with just three planes based on the field, and no FBO at all.  The only governing authority was the local fire department, who was using some of the abandoned large hangars to house their fire trucks. The firemen proved to be warily hospitable to us, their wayward Sun N Fun pilots, letting us use their phones and internet access for weather information.  We were an interesting bunch, flying everything from J3 Cubs to T-34 Mentors, and hailing from all over the country.  A few had caught a cab (with the only cab in town) to get some lunch, only to discover that the cab driver charged them EACH $10.00 to drive just a little over a mile to a nearby restaurant.  With directions to the restaurant — and a fresh weather briefing indicating that we’d be stuck there for at least a couple of hours — we started the long hike into town. After 15 minutes or so, the four of us came across a western apparel store with two little old ladies on the front porch.  Hailing them from the road, I inquired as to the location of the restaurant, which we thought was just ahead.  To our surprise, they responded that the closest restaurant was the OTHER direction!  We had apparently been given the wrong directions, and reluctantly began trudging our Sun N Fun-sore bodies back the other way. 15 more minutes, and we came across a gas station.  With no restaurant in sight, I inquired as to the location of the now-legendary restaurant.  To my amazement, the lady told me that the restaurant was BACK the OTHER way, just around the curve from the western apparel store!  It seems those blue-haired old ladies apparently didn’t get along with the owner of that restaurant, and had sent us on a wild goose chase! So, back we hiked to "Huddles" — which turned out to be an excellent Southern chain restaurant.  My 9-year old daughter discovered "grits" there — something she had never heard of before — and found that she rather liked them.  (They were actually edible, a vast improvement over MY first impression of grits when I was her age…) After the long hike back to the airport, we discovered that the rest of our band of stranded fliers had already departed — apparently conditions had improved!  After a quick call to flight service, confirming that things were indeed looking up, we, too, departed little Perry, Florida — hopefully never to return. Within a few miles, it became apparent that — while conditions had improved — things were still pretty dicey.  Flying along at 2500 feet over largely unpopulated parts of Florida and Georgia proved to be quite tense, as visibility kept varying wildly, with rain showers and virga falling all around us. The feeling of never being able to relax was quite wearing, as we just never

… read more »

Response:

Huh? Are you asking people to clean up their posts <snip <snip ? Or are you asking folks not to respond as often? Or both? I like when a part of a post is included. I do not like a long post, where I have to hunt for the new material, only to find – "me too" hidden at the bottom. Or wherever. Part of the previous post, included in the new post, is important for me because when I delete a session, the next download doesn’t have any thread reference. It just starts fresh where the running thread was deleted. I would like to see more people clean up their posts a little bit. Some already do, some don’t. I’m getting less rigid about using <…snip. I figure it might be assumed. Plus very few folks do that anymore. Evolution of the medium? (Wow, is that Latin?) What I will strongly advocate for in all posters is: Please put a space between your post and the one you are answering, especially in a running ping-pong match. Most do this already. It’s is a pet-peeve of mine when someone runs things together. Those posts don’t get read. I am not a grammar/spelling hound, but a total lack of any attempt to use (some) capitalization, is another reason, for me, to not read a post. Slackers!! That’s it from me. I’m off on my 3 mile walk – sore knee and all. (60 F in the Twin Cities this afternoon) No cable, no cell, no voice mail, no pagers. No almost everything… But we do have 640K DSL !!! (Mmm….much speed) — Montblack Never met a comma, I didn’t like. ("Martin Hotze" wrote) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – it is OT, but just an idea (just picked you, JimC, could have been any other of the fullquoters): would you just please cut down your postings and referring to the part of the previous poster that you are referring? there are more than 3 fullquotes of Jay’s great story. There are people out there using modems and pay by traffic or time.

Response:

You will still find that most schools in the country follow the judaeochristian tradition of the week before Easter/Passover. Since both of these are based on the first full moon after the spring equinox, figuring Spring Break is relatively simple. Jim shared these priceless pearls of wisdom: – Scheduling the show during Spring Break would give even those of us on the -Left – Coast the chance to try and make it from time to time. – -Agreed — except for one problem:  "Spring Break" varies wildly from area to -area. – -In Wisconsin, it was always around Easter.  Here in Iowa, the university -schedules it for early March — and all the elementary and secondary schools -follow suit. – -"Spring Break" is tough to pin down… Jim Weir    (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup) VP Eng RST   Pres. Cyberchapter   EAA Tech. Counselor

Response:

Scheduling the show during Spring Break would give even those of us on the Left Coast the chance to try and make it from time to time.

Agreed — except for one problem:  "Spring Break" varies wildly from area to area. In Wisconsin, it was always around Easter.  Here in Iowa, the university schedules it for early March — and all the elementary and secondary schools follow suit. "Spring Break" is tough to pin down… — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination"

Response:

Jay, Really enjoyed your story!  Glad you made it back OK.  Of course you and/or Mary need to get your IR, but you already know that, and if you had icing conditions that wouldn’t have mattered anyway. (and might have made things worse?) When planning routes, I always check to see what enroute airports have car rental facilities and/or airline service in my AOPA guide.  That way, if get-hom-itis rears it’s ugly head at the same time Mother Nature rears hers, I know I can get home via other means.  Airports with airline service are good, because sooner or later, you will need to go back and get your bird.   Hopefully summer is coming……. Take care, Bryan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Glad to see you made it home instead of into the NTSB accident database. Maybe it’s just me, but it sure seemed you were unnecessarily close to the latter for my taste.   It sounded like a classic case of "get-there-itus". Well, yes and no, John. We were very careful NOT to press on into impassable weather, and were very conscious of the location of the next closest airport.  We *were* prepared to stop at any time if things got out of hand. On the other hand, we were extremely conscious of the fact that if we didn’t "make it" through that day, we would most likely be stuck for several MORE days.  In fact, checking current conditions as I’m writing this, it is likely that we STILL would not be home if we had not pressed on when we did. Cross-country flying is a balancing act all the way, that’s for sure.  We obviously made the right choices (since I’m typing this), but as I already said, I wouldn’t want to do the flight again without more "contingency" time built into the schedule. — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" <snip interesting and downright harrowing flight story

Response:

I was at S&F on Thursday and Saturday but did not succeed in bumping into any of the other news group folks.  I should have done some hunting through the camping areas!

Hey, Jim — we hung around "Building A" for a few minutes at 5 PM on Thursday, but didn’t see anyone holding a "Usenet?" sign, so we kept on trudging. Maybe we can hook up at OSH? — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination"

Response:

Jay, another great post about a real cross-country VFR trip.  Too bad the aviation magazines don’t print stuff like this.

Just realized that.  Now I know what that reminded me of, some of Gordon Baxter’s old columns!  Funny you should post something like that to remind me of when Flying had some relevant columns, right after complaining about some of their less "exciting" stuff. — Mike

Response:

Boy, ain’t THAT the truth of it.  Y’know, the first week before the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox ain’t THAT hard to predict a hundred years or so in advance. Scheduling the show during Spring Break would give even those of us on the Left Coast the chance to try and make it from time to time. Jim shared these priceless pearls of wisdom: -Great stories Jay.  One of these days I’m going to head down to Sun-n-Fun, -now if they’d only schedual them during spring break… Jim Weir    (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup) VP Eng RST   Pres. Cyberchapter   EAA Tech. Counselor

Response:

I have now realized that one of the best attributes of Sun N Fun is the fact that it takes place in the springtime — before summer.

<snip Did we learn a lot from it?  You bet, and these experiences will serve to make us better, more cautious pilots.  But, for once, I’m really glad to be home.

Great stories Jay.  One of these days I’m going to head down to Sun-n-Fun, now if they’d only schedual them during spring break… Glad to hear you made it back safely, sounds like you learned more about cross country weather flying in those two days than most of our students here learn about ever.  There is a world of differance between the training flights we do for the ratings, day trips, and multi day trips across the country, and in many ways private pilot training doesn’t come close to covering them I fear. If you’re going to use an airplane for travel and get any utility out of it you have to know how to fly the weather.  I’ve been in those situations more than a few times, "well, it’s iffy to go now, but if we wait, we’ll be here for a week.  Let’s see how far we can get." then followed by "ok, now it’s looking bad, time to land"  The key is knowing WHEN to land, or how best to get around the weather that is there. The problem is, a lot of the people that are doing the instructing out there now have never had to make these decisions; their cross country experience is limited to the 4 hour training flights, that don’t even cross one weather system.  I think everybody could benefit from adding a 800 mile, multiple day cross country to the CFI requirements, or maybe to the insturment requirements, or something similar. That’s just my rant though.  Good job getting home safely though!  One of these days we’ll have to road trip out to Iowa to visit (or, hell, if you get stuck in central Illinois again, give me a call!) — Mike

Response:

Glad to see you made it home instead of into the NTSB accident database. Maybe it’s just me, but it sure seemed you were unnecessarily close to the latter for my taste.   It sounded like a classic case of "get-there-itus".

Well, yes and no, John. We were very careful NOT to press on into impassable weather, and were very conscious of the location of the next closest airport.  We *were* prepared to stop at any time if things got out of hand. On the other hand, we were extremely conscious of the fact that if we didn’t "make it" through that day, we would most likely be stuck for several MORE days.  In fact, checking current conditions as I’m writing this, it is likely that we STILL would not be home if we had not pressed on when we did. Cross-country flying is a balancing act all the way, that’s for sure.  We obviously made the right choices (since I’m typing this), but as I already said, I wouldn’t want to do the flight again without more "contingency" time built into the schedule. — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip interesting and downright harrowing flight story

Response:

However, after our flight home this year, I may have some difficulty convincing Mary to try this one again.  I’m not even sure I’d want to try it again myself, truth be told.  But I’m ahead of myself.

Enjoyed your reports, especially the one about your trip home.   Very happy to read you were able to quickly exit what read like a potentially very dangerous icing encounter. — Peter R. —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Response:

I realize that it wouldn’t have made much difference on this trip, but isn’t it time for you to get an IR? Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Glad to see you made it home instead of into the NTSB accident database. Maybe it’s just me, but it sure seemed you were unnecessarily close to the latter for my taste.   It sounded like a classic case of "get-there-itus". Well, yes and no, John. We were very careful NOT to press on into impassable weather, and were very conscious of the location of the next closest airport.  We *were* prepared to stop at any time if things got out of hand. On the other hand, we were extremely conscious of the fact that if we didn’t "make it" through that day, we would most likely be stuck for several MORE days.  In fact, checking current conditions as I’m writing this, it is likely that we STILL would not be home if we had not pressed on when we did. Cross-country flying is a balancing act all the way, that’s for sure.  We obviously made the right choices (since I’m typing this), but as I already said, I wouldn’t want to do the flight again without more "contingency" time built into the schedule. — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" <snip interesting and downright harrowing flight story

Response:

I realize that it wouldn’t have made much difference on this trip, but isn’t it time for you to get an IR?

Past time.  Like 8 years past time. I’ve finished all the flying requirements, and taken all the dual needed for the rating, so I’m confident that I wouldn’t kill myself flying into "soft" IFR conditions. What I need is the study-time to finish up the written… — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination"

Response:

Thanks for the stories, Jay.  They were well written and exciting to read.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have now realized that one of the best attributes of Sun N Fun is the fact that it takes place in the springtime — before summer. While this may seem pretty obvious, it carries for me a deeper meaning. When I leave Oshkosh each year, it is always with a tinge of melancholy, as I know that it marks the end of the warmth of summer, and the beginning of fall.  All the anticipation and joy of our annual pilgrimage to the Mecca of flight inevitably ends with the bittersweet closure of knowing that it will be an entire YEAR before we get to once again mingle with so many like-minded individuals in that aviation womb we call "Oshkosh"… Sun N Fun, on the other hand, carries none of that baggage.  In fact, on our taxi out to the runway for departure, we experienced the joyous revelation that this was not the end, but the *beginning* of the airshow season, and we soared into the sky knowing that our summer was still on the horizon — not drifting away in our past.  It was a really, really good feeling, and one that I would like to feel again next year! However, after our flight home this year, I may have some difficulty convincing Mary to try this one again.  I’m not even sure I’d want to try it again myself, truth be told.  But I’m ahead of myself. The prog charts for Saturday and Sunday made it clear that Saturday was the best day to depart.  Waiting until Sunday — our preferred course of action — would mean almost certain failure, as a major winter storm was building in the Rockies, and would soon be engulfing the Great Plains. So, it was with a heavy heart that we decided to bail out a day early, and head for home… However, in a last, defiant nod to the joys of Sun N Fun, we decided to wait until after breakfast on Saturday to break camp.  This would mean flying half-way home on Saturday, and pushing on the rest of the way Sunday, beating the storm into Iowa by a good 12 hours.  This decision nearly proved our undoing… After saying our goodbyes to friends and new acquaintances (Walt Porter, BTW, of this newsgroup, actually managed to find our campsite on Friday night!  Sadly, Mary and I were so beat from the day’s exertions that we were truly lousy hosts.  Worse, we had drank all the beer ourselves before Walt arrived!  Still, it was great to finally meet Walt in person, and we hope to hook up "for real" again soon — maybe at Oshkosh?), we headed back to the site, planning to quickly break camp and depart. Well, nothing happens quickly in 85 degree heat, in the blazing hot sun — especially when the F-117 Stealth Fighter shows up for several high speed fly-bys!  That danged little black jet went RIGHT over our tent at the end of RWY 9 — so of course we had to stand in awe as it raced up and down the runway… Long story short, we didn’t get the engine started until noon — and then we had to get gas.  (Due to the soft grass, the fuel truck wasn’t making "house calls" this year.  Instead, you had to taxi to them for gas.)   This turned out to be fairly time consuming, as the local yokel doing the pumping was not exactly the quickest deer in the meadow.   But, eventually we were on our way. Departing Lakeland was simplicity itself. Simply listen to ATIS, taxi to the active, follow the flagmen — and away you go!  From gas to departure couldn’t have taken five minutes — certainly better than any Oshkosh departure we’ve done.   Soon we were climbing up to our cruising altitude of 4500 feet, headed northwest under a high overcast… Within 50 miles, however, our high overcast began coming down.  Soon we were forced down to 3800, then 3200.  Before long, to remain clear of clouds, we were down to 2500, and the visibility was starting to suffer.  Long tendrils of virga were clearly visible ahead, and it became clear that the "broken" line of thunderstorms in our path were starting to consolidate. After a quick consultation with Flight Service, we decided to fly northwesterly along the Gulf of Mexico shoreline up to the Tallahassee area, and to try to do a "left-hook" around the western edge of the storms. Once through this backside gap, it should be clear sailing as far north as we cared to fly for the evening…   This evaluation was confirmed with Jacksonville Approach, who was "painting" weather ahead for us throughout the flight. Well, the ceiling just kept coming down, visibility was varying from 3 to 5 miles in light rain, and the boys at Flight Watch were soon singing a different tune.  It seemed the "gap" west of Tallahassee had filled into a thunderstorm with tops to FL 390!   Flying along in a more northerly direction, heading inland from the Gulf, trying to keep the storm well west of our position, we proceeded to follow the clear areas, dodging rain showers and becoming increasingly dismayed as our ceiling simply kept coming down, and down, and down. Eventually, just 20 miles from Tallahassee, I was forced to descend to only 700 AGL to remain clear of clouds, with rain showers visible in all quadrants around me.  It was time to do a 180, and we headed back to the last airport we had seen — a place called Perry-Foley, in little Perry, Florida. Informing Jacksonville Approach of my changed intentions, and the reasons for it, "our" controller pitched in completely, volunteering information on weather conditions ahead and behind, current conditions at Perry, etc.  It was obvious that he was accustomed to this kind of stuff happening in the tropical Florida build-ups, and he commented that we really should have departed earlier to avoid the afternoon heating… Smart too late for us… Within a few miles, conditions had improved to legal VFR again, and we proceeded uneventfully back to Perry, where we joined a group of nine other stranded "fellow travelers" from Sun N Fun.  While most were VFR pilots like us, several were IFR certified — which made Mary and I feel better about our decision to "wimp out" on the flight.  We all shared our tales of woe, and how we had fought the good fight trying to find that ever-elusive (and closing) gap in the line… It soon became obvious that there was absolutely NOTHING at Perry-Foley airport.  A nice facility, with three large WWII-looking runways, it was nevertheless largely deserted, with just three planes based on the field, and no FBO at all.  The only governing authority was the local fire department, who was using some of the abandoned large hangars to house their fire trucks. The firemen proved to be warily hospitable to us, their wayward Sun N Fun pilots, letting us use their phones and internet access for weather information.  We were an interesting bunch, flying everything from J3 Cubs to T-34 Mentors, and hailing from all over the country.  A few had caught a cab (with the only cab in town) to get some lunch, only to discover that the cab driver charged them EACH $10.00 to drive just a little over a mile to a nearby restaurant.  With directions to the restaurant — and a fresh weather briefing indicating that we’d be stuck there for at least a couple of hours — we started the long hike into town. After 15 minutes or so, the four of us came across a western apparel store with two little old ladies on the front porch.  Hailing them from the road, I inquired as to the location of the restaurant, which we thought was just ahead.  To our surprise, they responded that the closest restaurant was the OTHER direction!  We had apparently been given the wrong directions, and reluctantly began trudging our Sun N Fun-sore bodies back the other way. 15 more minutes, and we came across a gas station.  With no restaurant in sight, I inquired as to the location of the now-legendary restaurant.  To my amazement, the lady told me that the restaurant was BACK the OTHER way, just around the curve from the western apparel store!  It seems those blue-haired old ladies apparently didn’t get along with the owner of that restaurant, and had sent us on a wild goose chase! So, back we hiked to "Huddles" — which turned out to be an excellent Southern chain restaurant.  My 9-year old daughter discovered "grits" there — something she had never heard of before — and found that she rather liked them.  (They were actually edible, a vast improvement over MY first impression of grits when I was her age…) After the long hike back to the airport, we discovered that the rest of our band of stranded fliers had already departed — apparently conditions had improved!  After a quick call to flight service, confirming that things were indeed looking up, we, too, departed little Perry, Florida — hopefully never to return. Within a few miles, it became apparent that — while conditions had improved — things were still pretty dicey.  Flying along at 2500 feet over largely unpopulated parts of Florida and Georgia proved to be quite tense, as visibility kept varying wildly, with rain showers and virga falling all around us. The feeling of never being able to relax was quite wearing, as we just never could be sure that conditions wouldn’t close down around us again.  To make matters worse, there were very few airports, and almost no functioning AWOS stations along our route of flight. Luckily, with frequent departures from Center frequency to consult with Flight Watch, and with the help of some very helpful controllers who helped us avoid the heaviest cells, we eventually broke out into a higher overcast where we could climb to a more comfortable 4500 foot cruising altitude. The worst was over — or

… read more »

Response:

I have now realized that one of the best attributes of Sun N Fun is the fact that it takes place in the springtime — before summer.

Man, what a great series of stories, Jay.  Thanks for (virtually) taking me along with you! — Jim Fisher

Response:

Man, what a great series of stories, Jay.  Thanks for (virtually) taking me along with you!

Shoot, Jim — someday maybe we’ll get that Piper 6x, and pick you and the wife up on our way to Lakeland?  :) — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination"

Response:

<snip interesting and downright harrowing flight story Glad to see you made it home instead of into the NTSB accident database. Maybe it’s just me, but it sure seemed you were unnecessarily close to the latter for my taste.   It sounded like a classic case of "get-there-itus".

Response:

Great set of stories Jay.  Too bad we didn’t run into each other down there. The weather was a tough deal.  I managed to get thru further east but that’s luck of the draw.  The IFR rating didn’t help although it gave me some other potential options.  You recognized one point which I have to keep re-learning, that is, leaving early is the key to avoiding a lot of weather. It’s a good rule just about anywhere but especially so in the south during T-storm season (most of the year).  Problem is that the morning is also good for sleep, breakfast, touring, and everything else.  I always swear we’re getting an early start then at 1:00 decide to finally mount up.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have now realized that one of the best attributes of Sun N Fun is the fact that it takes place in the springtime — before summer. While this may seem pretty obvious, it carries for me a deeper meaning. When I leave Oshkosh each year, it is always with a tinge of melancholy, as I know that it marks the end of the warmth of summer, and the beginning of fall.  All the anticipation and joy of our annual pilgrimage to the Mecca of flight inevitably ends with the bittersweet closure of knowing that it will be an entire YEAR before we get to once again mingle with so many like-minded individuals in that aviation womb we call "Oshkosh"… Sun N Fun, on the other hand, carries none of that baggage.  In fact, on our taxi out to the runway for departure, we experienced the joyous revelation that this was not the end, but the *beginning* of the airshow season, and we soared into the sky knowing that our summer was still on the horizon — not drifting away in our past.  It was a really, really good feeling, and one that I would like to feel again next year! However, after our flight home this year, I may have some difficulty convincing Mary to try this one again.  I’m not even sure I’d want to try it again myself, truth be told.  But I’m ahead of myself. The prog charts for Saturday and Sunday made it clear that Saturday was the best day to depart.  Waiting until Sunday — our preferred course of action — would mean almost certain failure, as a major winter storm was building in the Rockies, and would soon be engulfing the Great Plains. So, it was with a heavy heart that we decided to bail out a day early, and head for home… However, in a last, defiant nod to the joys of Sun N Fun, we decided to wait until after breakfast on Saturday to break camp.  This would mean flying half-way home on Saturday, and pushing on the rest of the way Sunday, beating the storm into Iowa by a good 12 hours.  This decision nearly proved our undoing… After saying our goodbyes to friends and new acquaintances (Walt Porter, BTW, of this newsgroup, actually managed to find our campsite on Friday night!  Sadly, Mary and I were so beat from the day’s exertions that we were truly lousy hosts.  Worse, we had drank all the beer ourselves before Walt arrived!  Still, it was great to finally meet Walt in person, and we hope to hook up "for real" again soon — maybe at Oshkosh?), we headed back to the site, planning to quickly break camp and depart. Well, nothing happens quickly in 85 degree heat, in the blazing hot sun — especially when the F-117 Stealth Fighter shows up for several high speed fly-bys!  That danged little black jet went RIGHT over our tent at the end of RWY 9 — so of course we had to stand in awe as it raced up and down the runway… Long story short, we didn’t get the engine started until noon — and then we had to get gas.  (Due to the soft grass, the fuel truck wasn’t making "house calls" this year.  Instead, you had to taxi to them for gas.)   This turned out to be fairly time consuming, as the local yokel doing the pumping was not exactly the quickest deer in the meadow.   But, eventually we were on our way. Departing Lakeland was simplicity itself. Simply listen to ATIS, taxi to the active, follow the flagmen — and away you go!  From gas to departure couldn’t have taken five minutes — certainly better than any Oshkosh departure we’ve done.   Soon we were climbing up to our cruising altitude of 4500 feet, headed northwest under a high overcast… Within 50 miles, however, our high overcast began coming down.  Soon we were forced down to 3800, then 3200.  Before long, to remain clear of clouds, we were down to 2500, and the visibility was starting to suffer.  Long tendrils of virga were clearly visible ahead, and it became clear that the "broken" line of thunderstorms in our path were starting to consolidate. After a quick consultation with Flight Service, we decided to fly northwesterly along the Gulf of Mexico shoreline up to the Tallahassee area, and to try to do a "left-hook" around the western edge of the storms. Once through this backside gap, it should be clear sailing as far north as we cared to fly for the evening…   This evaluation was confirmed with Jacksonville Approach, who was "painting" weather ahead for us throughout the flight. Well, the ceiling just kept coming down, visibility was varying from 3 to 5 miles in light rain, and the boys at Flight Watch were soon singing a different tune.  It seemed the "gap" west of Tallahassee had filled into a thunderstorm with tops to FL 390!   Flying along in a more northerly direction, heading inland from the Gulf, trying to keep the storm well west of our position, we proceeded to follow the clear areas, dodging rain showers and becoming increasingly dismayed as our ceiling simply kept coming down, and down, and down. Eventually, just 20 miles from Tallahassee, I was forced to descend to only 700 AGL to remain clear of clouds, with rain showers visible in all quadrants around me.  It was time to do a 180, and we headed back to the last airport we had seen — a place called Perry-Foley, in little Perry, Florida. Informing Jacksonville Approach of my changed intentions, and the reasons for it, "our" controller pitched in completely, volunteering information on weather conditions ahead and behind, current conditions at Perry, etc.  It was obvious that he was accustomed to this kind of stuff happening in the tropical Florida build-ups, and he commented that we really should have departed earlier to avoid the afternoon heating… Smart too late for us… Within a few miles, conditions had improved to legal VFR again, and we proceeded uneventfully back to Perry, where we joined a group of nine other stranded "fellow travelers" from Sun N Fun.  While most were VFR pilots like us, several were IFR certified — which made Mary and I feel better about our decision to "wimp out" on the flight.  We all shared our tales of woe, and how we had fought the good fight trying to find that ever-elusive (and closing) gap in the line… It soon became obvious that there was absolutely NOTHING at Perry-Foley airport.  A nice facility, with three large WWII-looking runways, it was nevertheless largely deserted, with just three planes based on the field, and no FBO at all.  The only governing authority was the local fire department, who was using some of the abandoned large hangars to house their fire trucks. The firemen proved to be warily hospitable to us, their wayward Sun N Fun pilots, letting us use their phones and internet access for weather information.  We were an interesting bunch, flying everything from J3 Cubs to T-34 Mentors, and hailing from all over the country.  A few had caught a cab (with the only cab in town) to get some lunch, only to discover that the cab driver charged them EACH $10.00 to drive just a little over a mile to a nearby restaurant.  With directions to the restaurant — and a fresh weather briefing indicating that we’d be stuck there for at least a couple of hours — we started the long hike into town. After 15 minutes or so, the four of us came across a western apparel store with two little old ladies on the front porch.  Hailing them from the road, I inquired as to the location of the restaurant, which we thought was just ahead.  To our surprise, they responded that the closest restaurant was the OTHER direction!  We had apparently been given the wrong directions, and reluctantly began trudging our Sun N Fun-sore bodies back the other way. 15 more minutes, and we came across a gas station.  With no restaurant in sight, I inquired as to the location of the now-legendary restaurant.  To my amazement, the lady told me that the restaurant was BACK the OTHER way, just around the curve from the western apparel store!  It seems those blue-haired old ladies apparently didn’t get along with the owner of that restaurant, and had sent us on a wild goose chase! So, back we hiked to "Huddles" — which turned out to be an excellent Southern chain restaurant.  My 9-year old daughter discovered "grits" there — something she had never heard of before — and found that she rather liked them.  (They were actually edible, a vast improvement over MY first impression of grits when I was her age…) After the long hike back to the airport, we discovered that the rest of our band of stranded fliers had already departed — apparently conditions had improved!  After a quick call to flight service, confirming that things were indeed looking up, we, too, departed little Perry, Florida — hopefully never to return. Within a few miles, it became apparent that — while conditions had improved — things were still pretty dicey.  Flying along at 2500 feet over largely unpopulated parts of Florida and Georgia proved to be quite tense, as visibility kept varying wildly, with rain showers and virga falling all around us. The feeling of

… read more »

Response:

Sounds like an interesting, but very educational trip home. I recall one of my old instructors telling me "you never learn anything until you’re scared to death." I don’t know if I agree with that completely, but… oh well…

That’s EXACTLY what my instructor used to say. And, after we landed safely in Peoria, it’s exactly what I told my somewhat shaken wife. I don’t think she agreed completely, either. — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination"

Response:

Oh Jay, come next April visions of Jimmy Buffet will be dancing in your head. You’ll look at your worn flops and that lovely hat I’m sure you wore at Lakeland with longing. The cold of Iowa will melt away as warm tropical breezes beckon. Next year, eat at the Red Barn and Catfish Country. You’ve not fully experienced Lakeland until you have, preferable arriving in the back of a pickup truck with 13-20 other campers. Remember, too, that the best souvenirs and t-shirts are at Paradise City. I always buy my whirligigs there. I have a few comments that I would like to add to your excellent accounting. First, as a Southerner, may I welcome you to the joys of flying in the South in the Spring. It’s called the Stalled Front, typically happening on the Georgia/Florida line, conveniently over the Okeefenokee Swamp. With the exception of Florida, you’ll note that there are few fly-ins (if any) in the South in April. A few start up in May. Summer brings the haze. Our best fly-in month is October, and then there are so many it’s impossible to chose. Next, yours and Mary’s trip mimicked our own last year, the exceptions being that we only travel 500 miles from northern Georgia to central Florida, we didn’t encounter ice, and we were in two airplanes. You can read about it when you have the time here:http://www.southern-aviator.com/editorial/articledetail.lasso?-token.ke y=4988&-token.src=column&-nothing Our trip was an adventure and I wouldn’t change one thing. Of course, Henry took the whole week off, we weren’t flying with kids and we fly Luscombes. While mine is rather speedy (110 mph), Henry’s only travels a sedate 85-90 mph and carries only 14 gallons of fuel. The mindset must be different. The trip is the adventure, the destination optional. Thank you for a wonderful accounting. We missed the trip this year but gained a wonderful grandson. Still, you made me feel like we were there. We have fly-in destinations planned for Kansas and Illinois later in the year. Maybe Henry and I will pass you and Mary in those Midwestern skies. Deb — 1946 Luscombe 8A (His) 1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers) 1954 C-195B Restoring (Ours) Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

Response:

Sounds like an interesting, but very educational trip home. I recall one of my old instructors telling me "you never learn anything until you’re scared to death." I don’t know if I agree with that completely, but… oh well… — Clear Skies- Casey Hansen PP-ASEL-IA, Comm student http://www.caseynet.com/casey – Aviation weblog

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have now realized that one of the best attributes of Sun N Fun is the fact that it takes place in the springtime — before summer. While this may seem pretty obvious, it carries for me a deeper meaning. When I leave Oshkosh each year, it is always with a tinge of melancholy, as I know that it marks the end of the warmth of summer, and the beginning of fall.  All the anticipation and joy of our annual pilgrimage to the Mecca of flight inevitably ends with the bittersweet closure of knowing that it will be an entire YEAR before we get to once again mingle with so many like-minded individuals in that aviation womb we call "Oshkosh"… Sun N Fun, on the other hand, carries none of that baggage.  In fact, on our taxi out to the runway for departure, we experienced the joyous revelation that this was not the end, but the *beginning* of the airshow season, and we soared into the sky knowing that our summer was still on the horizon — not drifting away in our past.  It was a really, really good feeling, and one that I would like to feel again next year! However, after our flight home this year, I may have some difficulty convincing Mary to try this one again.  I’m not even sure I’d want to try it again myself, truth be told.  But I’m ahead of myself. The prog charts for Saturday and Sunday made it clear that Saturday was the best day to depart.  Waiting until Sunday — our preferred course of action — would mean almost certain failure, as a major winter storm was building in the Rockies, and would soon be engulfing the Great Plains. So, it was with a heavy heart that we decided to bail out a day early, and head for home… However, in a last, defiant nod to the joys of Sun N Fun, we decided to wait until after breakfast on Saturday to break camp.  This would mean flying half-way home on Saturday, and pushing on the rest of the way Sunday, beating the storm into Iowa by a good 12 hours.  This decision nearly proved our undoing… After saying our goodbyes to friends and new acquaintances (Walt Porter, BTW, of this newsgroup, actually managed to find our campsite on Friday night!  Sadly, Mary and I were so beat from the day’s exertions that we were truly lousy hosts.  Worse, we had drank all the beer ourselves before Walt arrived!  Still, it was great to finally meet Walt in person, and we hope to hook up "for real" again soon — maybe at Oshkosh?), we headed back to the site, planning to quickly break camp and depart. Well, nothing happens quickly in 85 degree heat, in the blazing hot sun — especially when the F-117 Stealth Fighter shows up for several high speed fly-bys!  That danged little black jet went RIGHT over our tent at the end of RWY 9 — so of course we had to stand in awe as it raced up and down the runway… Long story short, we didn’t get the engine started until noon — and then we had to get gas.  (Due to the soft grass, the fuel truck wasn’t making "house calls" this year.  Instead, you had to taxi to them for gas.)   This turned out to be fairly time consuming, as the local yokel doing the pumping was not exactly the quickest deer in the meadow.   But, eventually we were on our way. Departing Lakeland was simplicity itself. Simply listen to ATIS, taxi to the active, follow the flagmen — and away you go!  From gas to departure couldn’t have taken five minutes — certainly better than any Oshkosh departure we’ve done.   Soon we were climbing up to our cruising altitude of 4500 feet, headed northwest under a high overcast… Within 50 miles, however, our high overcast began coming down.  Soon we were forced down to 3800, then 3200.  Before long, to remain clear of clouds, we were down to 2500, and the visibility was starting to suffer.  Long tendrils of virga were clearly visible ahead, and it became clear that the "broken" line of thunderstorms in our path were starting to consolidate. After a quick consultation with Flight Service, we decided to fly northwesterly along the Gulf of Mexico shoreline up to the Tallahassee area, and to try to do a "left-hook" around the western edge of the storms. Once through this backside gap, it should be clear sailing as far north as we cared to fly for the evening…   This evaluation was confirmed with Jacksonville Approach, who was "painting" weather ahead for us throughout the flight. Well, the ceiling just kept coming down, visibility was varying from 3 to 5 miles in light rain, and the boys at Flight Watch were soon singing a different tune.  It seemed the "gap" west of Tallahassee had filled into a thunderstorm with tops to FL 390!   Flying along in a more northerly direction, heading inland from the Gulf, trying to keep the storm well west of our position, we proceeded to follow the clear areas, dodging rain showers and becoming increasingly dismayed as our ceiling simply kept coming down, and down, and down. Eventually, just 20 miles from Tallahassee, I was forced to descend to only 700 AGL to remain clear of clouds, with rain showers visible in all quadrants around me.  It was time to do a 180, and we headed back to the last airport we had seen — a place called Perry-Foley, in little Perry, Florida. Informing Jacksonville Approach of my changed intentions, and the reasons for it, "our" controller pitched in completely, volunteering information on weather conditions ahead and behind, current conditions at Perry, etc.  It was obvious that he was accustomed to this kind of stuff happening in the tropical Florida build-ups, and he commented that we really should have departed earlier to avoid the afternoon heating… Smart too late for us… Within a few miles, conditions had improved to legal VFR again, and we proceeded uneventfully back to Perry, where we joined a group of nine other stranded "fellow travelers" from Sun N Fun.  While most were VFR pilots like us, several were IFR certified — which made Mary and I feel better about our decision to "wimp out" on the flight.  We all shared our tales of woe, and how we had fought the good fight trying to find that ever-elusive (and closing) gap in the line… It soon became obvious that there was absolutely NOTHING at Perry-Foley airport.  A nice facility, with three large WWII-looking runways, it was nevertheless largely deserted, with just three planes based on the field, and no FBO at all.  The only governing authority was the local fire department, who was using some of the abandoned large hangars to house their fire trucks. The firemen proved to be warily hospitable to us, their wayward Sun N Fun pilots, letting us use their phones and internet access for weather information.  We were an interesting bunch, flying everything from J3 Cubs to T-34 Mentors, and hailing from all over the country.  A few had caught a cab (with the only cab in town) to get some lunch, only to discover that the cab driver charged them EACH $10.00 to drive just a little over a mile to a nearby restaurant.  With directions to the restaurant — and a fresh weather briefing indicating that we’d be stuck there for at least a couple of hours — we started the long hike into town. After 15 minutes or so, the four of us came across a western apparel store with two little old ladies on the front porch.  Hailing them from the road, I inquired as to the location of the restaurant, which we thought was just ahead.  To our surprise, they responded that the closest restaurant was the OTHER direction!  We had apparently been given the wrong directions, and reluctantly began trudging our Sun N Fun-sore bodies back the other way. 15 more minutes, and we came across a gas station.  With no restaurant in sight, I inquired as to the location of the now-legendary restaurant.  To my amazement, the lady told me that the restaurant was BACK the OTHER way, just around the curve from the western apparel store!  It seems those blue-haired old ladies apparently didn’t get along with the owner of that restaurant, and had sent us on a wild goose chase! So, back we hiked to "Huddles" — which turned out to be an excellent Southern chain restaurant.  My 9-year old daughter discovered "grits" there — something she had never heard of before — and found that she rather liked them.  (They were actually edible, a vast improvement over MY first impression of grits when I was her age…) After the long hike back to the airport, we discovered that the rest of our band of stranded fliers had already departed — apparently conditions had improved!  After a quick call to flight service, confirming that things were indeed looking up, we, too, departed little Perry, Florida — hopefully never to return. Within a few miles, it became apparent that — while conditions had improved — things were still pretty dicey.  Flying along at 2500 feet over largely unpopulated parts of Florida and Georgia proved to be quite tense, as visibility kept varying wildly, with rain showers and virga falling all around us. The feeling of never being able to relax was quite wearing, as we just never could be sure that conditions wouldn’t close down around us again.  To make matters worse, there were very few airports, and almost no functioning AWOS stations along our route of flight. Luckily, with frequent departures from Center frequency to consult with

… read more »

Response:

I have now realized that one of the best attributes of Sun N Fun is the fact that it takes place in the springtime — before summer. While this may seem pretty obvious, it carries for me a deeper meaning. When I leave Oshkosh each year, it is always with a tinge of melancholy, as I know that it marks the end of the warmth of summer, and the beginning of fall.  All the anticipation and joy of our annual pilgrimage to the Mecca of flight inevitably ends with the bittersweet closure of knowing that it will be an entire YEAR before we get to once again mingle with so many like-minded individuals in that aviation womb we call "Oshkosh"… Sun N Fun, on the other hand, carries none of that baggage.  In fact, on our taxi out to the runway for departure, we experienced the joyous revelation that this was not the end, but the *beginning* of the airshow season, and we soared into the sky knowing that our summer was still on the horizon — not drifting away in our past.  It was a really, really good feeling, and one that I would like to feel again next year! However, after our flight home this year, I may have some difficulty convincing Mary to try this one again.  I’m not even sure I’d want to try it again myself, truth be told.  But I’m ahead of myself. The prog charts for Saturday and Sunday made it clear that Saturday was the best day to depart.  Waiting until Sunday — our preferred course of action — would mean almost certain failure, as a major winter storm was building in the Rockies, and would soon be engulfing the Great Plains.  So, it was with a heavy heart that we decided to bail out a day early, and head for home… However, in a last, defiant nod to the joys of Sun N Fun, we decided to wait until after breakfast on Saturday to break camp.  This would mean flying half-way home on Saturday, and pushing on the rest of the way Sunday, beating the storm into Iowa by a good 12 hours.  This decision nearly proved our undoing… After saying our goodbyes to friends and new acquaintances (Walt Porter, BTW, of this newsgroup, actually managed to find our campsite on Friday night!  Sadly, Mary and I were so beat from the day’s exertions that we were truly lousy hosts.  Worse, we had drank all the beer ourselves before Walt arrived!  Still, it was great to finally meet Walt in person, and we hope to hook up "for real" again soon — maybe at Oshkosh?), we headed back to the site, planning to quickly break camp and depart. Well, nothing happens quickly in 85 degree heat, in the blazing hot sun — especially when the F-117 Stealth Fighter shows up for several high speed fly-bys!  That danged little black jet went RIGHT over our tent at the end of RWY 9 — so of course we had to stand in awe as it raced up and down the runway… Long story short, we didn’t get the engine started until noon — and then we had to get gas.  (Due to the soft grass, the fuel truck wasn’t making "house calls" this year.  Instead, you had to taxi to them for gas.)   This turned out to be fairly time consuming, as the local yokel doing the pumping was not exactly the quickest deer in the meadow.   But, eventually we were on our way. Departing Lakeland was simplicity itself. Simply listen to ATIS, taxi to the active, follow the flagmen — and away you go!  From gas to departure couldn’t have taken five minutes — certainly better than any Oshkosh departure we’ve done.   Soon we were climbing up to our cruising altitude of 4500 feet, headed northwest under a high overcast… Within 50 miles, however, our high overcast began coming down.  Soon we were forced down to 3800, then 3200.  Before long, to remain clear of clouds, we were down to 2500, and the visibility was starting to suffer.  Long tendrils of virga were clearly visible ahead, and it became clear that the "broken" line of thunderstorms in our path were starting to consolidate. After a quick consultation with Flight Service, we decided to fly northwesterly along the Gulf of Mexico shoreline up to the Tallahassee area, and to try to do a "left-hook" around the western edge of the storms. Once through this backside gap, it should be clear sailing as far north as we cared to fly for the evening…   This evaluation was confirmed with Jacksonville Approach, who was "painting" weather ahead for us throughout the flight. Well, the ceiling just kept coming down, visibility was varying from 3 to 5 miles in light rain, and the boys at Flight Watch were soon singing a different tune.  It seemed the "gap" west of Tallahassee had filled into a thunderstorm with tops to FL 390!   Flying along in a more northerly direction, heading inland from the Gulf, trying to keep the storm well west of our position, we proceeded to follow the clear areas, dodging rain showers and becoming increasingly dismayed as our ceiling simply kept coming down, and down, and down. Eventually, just 20 miles from Tallahassee, I was forced to descend to only 700 AGL to remain clear of clouds, with rain showers visible in all quadrants around me.  It was time to do a 180, and we headed back to the last airport we had seen — a place called Perry-Foley, in little Perry, Florida. Informing Jacksonville Approach of my changed intentions, and the reasons for it, "our" controller pitched in completely, volunteering information on weather conditions ahead and behind, current conditions at Perry, etc.  It was obvious that he was accustomed to this kind of stuff happening in the tropical Florida build-ups, and he commented that we really should have departed earlier to avoid the afternoon heating… Smart too late for us… Within a few miles, conditions had improved to legal VFR again, and we proceeded uneventfully back to Perry, where we joined a group of nine other stranded "fellow travelers" from Sun N Fun.  While most were VFR pilots like us, several were IFR certified — which made Mary and I feel better about our decision to "wimp out" on the flight.  We all shared our tales of woe, and how we had fought the good fight trying to find that ever-elusive (and closing) gap in the line… It soon became obvious that there was absolutely NOTHING at Perry-Foley airport.  A nice facility, with three large WWII-looking runways, it was nevertheless largely deserted, with just three planes based on the field, and no FBO at all.  The only governing authority was the local fire department, who was using some of the abandoned large hangars to house their fire trucks. The firemen proved to be warily hospitable to us, their wayward Sun N Fun pilots, letting us use their phones and internet access for weather information.  We were an interesting bunch, flying everything from J3 Cubs to T-34 Mentors, and hailing from all over the country.  A few had caught a cab (with the only cab in town) to get some lunch, only to discover that the cab driver charged them EACH $10.00 to drive just a little over a mile to a nearby restaurant.  With directions to the restaurant — and a fresh weather briefing indicating that we’d be stuck there for at least a couple of hours — we started the long hike into town. After 15 minutes or so, the four of us came across a western apparel store with two little old ladies on the front porch.  Hailing them from the road, I inquired as to the location of the restaurant, which we thought was just ahead.  To our surprise, they responded that the closest restaurant was the OTHER direction!  We had apparently been given the wrong directions, and reluctantly began trudging our Sun N Fun-sore bodies back the other way. 15 more minutes, and we came across a gas station.  With no restaurant in sight, I inquired as to the location of the now-legendary restaurant.  To my amazement, the lady told me that the restaurant was BACK the OTHER way, just around the curve from the western apparel store!  It seems those blue-haired old ladies apparently didn’t get along with the owner of that restaurant, and had sent us on a wild goose chase! So, back we hiked to "Huddles" — which turned out to be an excellent Southern chain restaurant.  My 9-year old daughter discovered "grits" there — something she had never heard of before — and found that she rather liked them.  (They were actually edible, a vast improvement over MY first impression of grits when I was her age…) After the long hike back to the airport, we discovered that the rest of our band of stranded fliers had already departed — apparently conditions had improved!  After a quick call to flight service, confirming that things were indeed looking up, we, too, departed little Perry, Florida — hopefully never to return. Within a few miles, it became apparent that — while conditions had improved — things were still pretty dicey.  Flying along at 2500 feet over largely unpopulated parts of Florida and Georgia proved to be quite tense, as visibility kept varying wildly, with rain showers and virga falling all around us. The feeling of never being able to relax was quite wearing, as we just never could be sure that conditions wouldn’t close down around us again.  To make matters worse, there were very few airports, and almost no functioning AWOS stations along our route of flight. Luckily, with frequent departures from Center frequency to consult with Flight Watch, and with the help of some very helpful controllers who helped us avoid the heaviest cells, we eventually broke out into a higher overcast where we could climb to a more comfortable 4500 foot cruising altitude.  The worst was over — or so we thought. Visibility gradually improved as nightfall slowly descended on the countryside.  Now over Alabama, we considered our options. Flight service was now predicting that the cold front we had finally busted through would become a warm front overnight — and slide back north, possibly trapping us underneath it again!  To make matters worse, the winter storm approaching Iowa was intensifying, and moving into the Plains with alarming speed.  Our best bet was to

… read more »

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Question:

Doesn’t some of the finest hashish in the world come from Afghanistan? And opium? Not anymore. That’s why Dubya sent $43 million to them.

Its a price support program. There is a glut of opium. They are still selling old stocks. M. Simon  Space-Time Productions http://www.spacetimepro.com               Free CNC Machine Control Software               Free Source Code               Control the World From a Parallel Port

Response:

__Why Did Bush Give $43 Million to Afghanistan in May? He didn’t.  The the state dept continued the humanitarian aid to the Afgani victims of the Taliban this year, just as they did ($60 million) last year under Clinton. Anything to bash Bush, sad really.

Well, actually he did give $43 million, but if you can believe this unbiased link (http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2001/index.cfm?docid=2928), it is not going to the Taliban ("Our aid bypasses the Taliban, who have done little to alleviate the suffering of the Afghan people") And it brings this years total aid (at the time anyway) to Afghanistan to $124 million, $10 million higher than last year’s $114 million. Just because Clinton gave them money doesn’t mean it’s okay for Bush to continue the policy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – __Why Did Bush Give $43 Million to Afghanistan in May? He didn’t.  The the state dept continued the humanitarian aid to the Afgani victims of the Taliban this year, just as they did ($60 million) last year under Clinton. Anything to bash Bush, sad really. Well, actually he did give $43 million, but if you can believe this unbiased link (http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2001/index.cfm?docid=2928), it is not going to the Taliban ("Our aid bypasses the Taliban, who have done little to alleviate the suffering of the Afghan people")

The aid is in the form of food and other materials, probably purchased from farmers in the US.  It was not a cash handout to the Afghans or Taliban. Are you questioning the State Dept’s credibility?  Don’t you think it would get out if there was a conspiracy and lies coming out of the State Dept?  They are subject to congressional oversight, and I am sure that every transaction made with the funds are public record, as well as subject to GAO accounting.  If you have some reason/evidence to suspect a conspiracy, lemme know. And it brings this years total aid (at the time anyway) to Afghanistan to $124 million, $10 million higher than last year’s $114 million.

Congress appropriates the money to the state dept, and can easily cut their budget. Just because Clinton gave them money doesn’t mean it’s okay for Bush to continue the policy.

Me thinks that aid will come in very handy soon, it may have bought us enough friends there to save some lives. Having said all of that, I don’t really think the govt is the right organization to handle international humanitarian aid, I think private organizations should do it (like Unicef), and those who want to help people internationally should give to those organizations (with 100% tax breaks). I don’t think humanitarian aid should be a function of Govt.  Taxpayers who are forced to do good are not really doing good at all.

Response:

Doesn’t some of the finest hashish in the world come from Afghanistan? And opium? Not anymore. That’s why Dubya sent $43 million to them. Actually, the reason the US govt. was cozying up to the taliban regime before is that they would love to build a pipeline from the oil-rich central asian states that were former pieces of hte Soviet Union to a port on the Indian Ocean.  To do this, the pipeline would have to cross either Iran or both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Do you have anything to support what you say, or are you just venturing a guess?  I have never heard of any plans to run a pipeline through the hot beds of Afganistan and Pakistan. US Oil companies (not the US govt) have expressed interest in the areas around the Caspian (Azerbaijan et al) in the past, with the idea of a pipeline through Turkey, but that is fading in last couple years due to too much political trouble there. http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2001/02/21022001122555.asp

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Did any *other* source report this?   I doubt it, what other source would believe that the Taliban are anti-drug?

Doesn’t some of the finest hashish in the world come from Afghanistan? And opium?

Response:

Did any *other* source report this?   I doubt it, what other source would believe that the Taliban are anti-drug? Doesn’t some of the finest hashish in the world come from Afghanistan? And opium?

Not anymore. That’s why Dubya sent $43 million to them.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – __Why Did Bush Give $43 Million to Afghanistan in May? He didn’t.  The the state dept continued the humanitarian aid to the Afgani victims of the Taliban this year, Not according to the article that appeared in the LA Times in May. Here is the full text.    Bush’s Faustian Deal With the Taliban    By Robert Scheer Scheer is a certified nutcase, and has trouble with the facts. Read this and weep: My, my. There’s an unprejudiced source. (That’s sarcasm for the humor impaired) http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnists/horowitz/2001/dh02-19-01.htm So, in other words, you have no reply when faced with the facts? Stupendous Man&#8249;have assault rifle, will travel. Osama: you can hide but we will still find you! Wanted&#8249;dead: Osama Bin Laden.   $5 million reward!

Let’s just say that I don’t regard Front Page as having all the facts.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have anything to support what you say, or are you just venturing a guess?  I have never heard of any plans to run a pipeline through the hot beds of Afganistan and Pakistan. US Oil companies (not the US govt) have expressed interest in the areas around the Caspian (Azerbaijan et al) in the past, with the idea of a pipeline through Turkey, but that is fading in last couple years due to too much political trouble there. http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2001/02/21022001122555.asp You’re thinking of the wrong oil-fields, John.  The "Unocal/Delta proposal" runs the pipe due south from central Turkmenistan through Afganistan and Pakistan to the Gulf of Arabia.  See: http://www.chevron.com/newsvs/speeches/1997/97-5-21-matzke.shtml

They are already shipping oil out of Kazakstan to the north, and would undoubtedly go that way before going south through the Muslim countries.  I think the Taliban has declared "Jihad" against several of the southern Russian "stan" states, IIRC, Turkmenistan is one.  If any southern route would be created, it would undoubtedly be through Iran these days, but as is indicated in the RFE article I linked to, Russia is getting territorial in that part of the world anyway, and US companies might not be able to get anything done, including a Caspian/Turkey pipeline. I wasn’t aware of those 1997 proposals, but it is a firm bet they are long dead.  Even that page says in 1997: "Nobody can forecast the outlook for these "southern solutions,"  but I think it is fair to say that the idea of running pipelines across  Afghanistan or Iran makes even the CPC project look tame by comparison." It then goes on to give all the reasons why a western route would be better. Delta is a Saudi Company, and Unocal is of course the old "Union Oil" ("76") established in Santa Paula, CA in 1890. Have Bush and Cheney had extensive dealings with Unocal?  Of course – they’re oilmen!

Broad labels convince me of nothing, and as has been stated in this thread, all of the so called Taliban ‘Payola’ is in the form of food given directly to the people of Afghanistan via NGOs.   The Clinton admin (the state dept really) gave as much or more, and he wasn’t an ‘oilman’, whatever that is exactly.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have anything to support what you say, or are you just venturing a guess?  I have never heard of any plans to run a pipeline through the hot beds of Afganistan and Pakistan. US Oil companies (not the US govt) have expressed interest in the areas around the Caspian (Azerbaijan et al) in the past, with the idea of a pipeline through Turkey, but that is fading in last couple years due to too much political trouble there. http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2001/02/21022001122555.asp You’re thinking of the wrong oil-fields, John.  The "Unocal/Delta proposal" runs the pipe due south from central Turkmenistan through Afganistan and Pakistan to the Gulf of Arabia.  See: http://www.chevron.com/newsvs/speeches/1997/97-5-21-matzke.shtml They are already shipping oil out of Kazakstan to the north, and would undoubtedly go that way before going south through the Muslim countries.  I think the Taliban has declared "Jihad" against several of the southern Russian "stan" states, IIRC, Turkmenistan is one.

Not exactly.  Pakistan has been using bin Laden to propagandize and support Muslims fundamentalists in Kashmir, and each of the central Asian states has a fundamentalist minority that is vying for power, accepting arms from Pak and the Taliban, financed by drug trafficking. This is also true with Xingiang Province in China.   If any southern route would be created, it would undoubtedly be through Iran these days, but as is indicated in the RFE article I linked to, Russia is getting territorial in that part of the world anyway, and US companies might not be able to get anything done, including a Caspian/Turkey pipeline. I wasn’t aware of those 1997 proposals, but it is a firm bet they are long dead.  Even that page says in 1997: "Nobody can forecast the outlook for these "southern solutions,"  but I think it is fair to say that the idea of running pipelines across  Afghanistan or Iran makes even the CPC project look tame by comparison."

No, it’s not long dead – still quite alive.  It took 20 years to get the Alaska pipeline over all the hurdles, and if it hadn’t been for the "energy crises" it probably wouldn’t have breached the environmental and Native Alaskan issues (or at least been significantly delayed.) The Pakistani Bhutto government was neutral insofar as contractors were concerned (free trade), but Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and the US State Department were pushing the Delta/Unocal side of the competition.  So Bhutto lost to the Sharif Government in Pakistan and the new government opted for Delta/Unocal, responding to US pressure.  Both the US and Pak cultivated the Taliban to take control of the many competing Afgan warlords and stabalize the area, but the Taliban betrayed them, since the competition, Bridas of Argentina, got to the Taliban and offered them a deal they couldn’t refuse.  The Taliban announced on May 4, 1997 that they would sign a contract with Bridas. Solution (to US and Pakistan’s interests)?  Get rid of the Taliban. It then goes on to give all the reasons why a western route would be better.

There are two huge problems with the western route, the biggest being that the 10-15 year market projections are that the demand in Asian markets will be 10 times greater than the demand in in the European market.  The second is the Black Sea "Choke Point," the Bosporus (or Turkish Straights). This narrow passage, difficult to navigate, already has tanker traffic that is causing problems.  Additionally, Turkey is raising objections on issues of congestion and environment.  This is what makes the deep water ports of Pakistan on the Arabian Sea economically attractive, since markets in Pakistan and India alone are huge. As for going south through Iran – more big problems.  US Law forbids any US oil companies to deal with Iran through the aegis of the Iran and Libya Sanctions Act (ILSA) of 1986, modified in 1996 by congress. Delta is a Saudi Company, and Unocal is of course the old "Union Oil" ("76") established in Santa Paula, CA in 1890. Have Bush and Cheney had extensive dealings with Unocal?  Of course – they’re oilmen! Broad labels convince me of nothing, and as has been stated in this thread, all of the so called Taliban ‘Payola’ is in the form of food given directly to the people of Afghanistan via NGOs.   The Clinton admin (the state dept really) gave as much or more, and he wasn’t an ‘oilman’, whatever that is exactly.

Well, we all know what "oilmen" means, and it is not a broad label at all.  I think anyone is pretty naive to claim (or believe) that oil is not a (the) major player in international politics.  After all, it is considered a national security item by our government. As for the "Payola" it wasn’t all food.  Medical, and alternative farmimg training/supplies (for a crop besides opium) was included, as well as cash to augment the Taliban police infrasturcture so they could enforce the poppy ban. But you know, Afgani farmers earn about 5 bucks a month with legal crops, and they can earn 500 bucks on an acre of poppies.  Afganistan is the largest producer of heroin in the world.  30 billion a year are estimated to flow into the Pak economy from heroin. EAM

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – __Why Did Bush Give $43 Million to Afghanistan in May? He didn’t.  The the state dept continued the humanitarian aid to the Afgani victims of the Taliban this year, Not according to the article that appeared in the LA Times in May. Here is the full text.    Bush’s Faustian Deal With the Taliban    By Robert Scheer Scheer is a certified nutcase, and has trouble with the facts. Read this and weep: My, my. There’s an unprejudiced source. (That’s sarcasm for the humor impaired)

Who’s Mr. Pot calling ‘black’ now? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnists/horowitz/2001/dh02-19-01.htm

Response:

Bush’s Faustian Deal With the Taliban By Robert Scheer Published May 22, 2001 in the Los Angeles Times Enslave your girls and women, harbor anti-U.S. terrorists, destroy every vestige of civilization in your homeland, and the Bush administration will embrace you. All that matters is that you line up as an ally in the drug war, the only international cause that this nation still takes seriously. That’s the message sent with the recent gift of $43 million to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, the most virulent anti-American violators of human rights in the world today. The gift, announced last Thursday by Secretary of State Colin Powell, in addition to other recent aid, makes the U.S. the main sponsor of the Taliban and rewards that "rogue regime" for declaring that opium growing is against the will of God. So, too, by the Taliban’s estimation, are most human activities, but it’s the ban on drugs that catches this administration’s attention. Never mind that Osama bin Laden still operates the leading anti-American terror operation from his base in Afghanistan, from which, among other crimes, he launched two bloody attacks on American embassies in Africa in 1998. Sadly, the Bush administration is cozying up to the Taliban regime at a time when the United Nations, at U.S. insistence, imposes sanctions on Afghanistan because the Kabul government will not turn over Bin Laden. The war on drugs has become our own fanatics’ obsession and easily trumps all other concerns. How else could we come to reward the Taliban, who has subjected the female half of the Afghan population to a continual reign of terror in a country once considered enlightened in its treatment of women? At no point in modern history have women and girls been more systematically abused than in Afghanistan where, in the name of madness masquerading as Islam, the government in Kabul obliterates their fundamental human rights. Women may not appear in public without being covered from head to toe with the oppressive shroud called the burkha , and they may not leave the house without being accompanied by a male family member. They’ve not been permitted to attend school or be treated by male doctors, yet women have been banned from practicing medicine or any profession for that matter. The lot of males is better if they blindly accept the laws of an extreme religious theocracy that prescribes strict rules governing all behavior, from a ban on shaving to what crops may be grown. It is this last power that has captured the enthusiasm of the Bush White House. The Taliban fanatics, economically and diplomatically isolated, are at the breaking point, and so, in return for a pittance of legitimacy and cash from the Bush administration, they have been willing to appear to reverse themselves on the growing of opium. That a totalitarian country can effectively crack down on its farmers is not surprising. But it is grotesque for a U.S. official, James P. Callahan, director of the State Department’s Asian anti-drug program, to describe the Taliban’s special methods in the language of representative democracy: "The Taliban used a system of consensus-building," Callahan said after a visit with the Taliban, adding that the Taliban justified the ban on drugs "in very religious terms." Of course, Callahan also reported, those who didn’t obey the theocratic edict would be sent to prison. In a country where those who break minor rules are simply beaten on the spot by religious police and others are stoned to death, it’s understandable that the government’s "religious" argument might be compelling. Even if it means, as Callahan concedes, that most of the farmers who grew the poppies will now confront starvation. That’s because the Afghan economy has been ruined by the religious extremism of the Taliban, making the attraction of opium as a previously tolerated quick cash crop overwhelming. For that reason, the opium ban will not last unless the U.S. is willing to pour far larger amounts of money into underwriting the Afghan economy. As the Drug Enforcement Administration’s Steven Casteel admitted, "The bad side of the ban is that it’s bringing their country–or certain regions of their country–to economic ruin." Nor did he hold out much hope for Afghan farmers growing other crops such as wheat, which require a vast infrastructure to supply water and fertilizer that no longer exists in that devastated country. There’s little doubt that the Taliban will turn once again to the easily taxed cash crop of opium in order to stay in power. The Taliban may suddenly be the dream regime of our own war drug war zealots, but in the end this alliance will prove a costly failure. Our long sad history of signing up dictators in the war on drugs demonstrates the futility of building a foreign policy on a domestic obsession. http://robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn/01_columns/052201.htm

Response:

Do you have anything to support what you say, or are you just venturing a guess?  I have never heard of any plans to run a pipeline through the hot beds of Afganistan and Pakistan. US Oil companies (not the US govt) have expressed interest in the areas around the Caspian (Azerbaijan et al) in the past, with the idea of a pipeline through Turkey, but that is fading in last couple years due to too much political trouble there. http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2001/02/21022001122555.asp

You’re thinking of the wrong oil-fields, John.  The "Unocal/Delta proposal" runs the pipe due south from central Turkmenistan through Afganistan and Pakistan to the Gulf of Arabia.  See: http://www.chevron.com/newsvs/speeches/1997/97-5-21-matzke.shtml Delta is a Saudi Company, and Unocal is of course the old "Union Oil" ("76") established in Santa Paula, CA in 1890. Have Bush and Cheney had extensive dealings with Unocal?  Of course – they’re oilmen! EAM

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – __Why Did Bush Give $43 Million to Afghanistan in May? On May 22, LA Times columnist Robert Scheer denounced "the recent gift of $43 million to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, the most virulent anti-American violators of human rights in the world today. The gift, announced last Thursday by Secretary of State Colin Powell… makes the U.S. the main sponsor of the Taliban and rewards that "rogue regime" for declaring that opium growing is against the will of God… Never mind that Osama bin Laden still operates the leading anti-American terror operation from his base in Afghanistan, from which, among other crimes, he launched two bloody attacks on American embassies in Africa in 1998. Sadly, the Bush administration is cozying up to the Taliban regime at a time when the United Nations, at U.S. insistence, imposes sanctions on Afghanistan because the Kabul government will not turn over Bin Laden." Is the US funding the Taliban? Bush needs to tell Americans the truth. http://www.robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn/01_columns/052201.htm

You have to love Socialist propaganda.  $43 million in food aid suddenly becomes AK-47s and support for terrorists. Stupendous Man

Question:

I just want to add to that, that I can get my jaragun page up on almost any search that includes the words I set up as keywords.  It comes up all the time (annoyingly) when I’m looking for other organic suppliers to buy stuff from.  I haven’t paid for any listings anywhere.  Just used the free ones in Yahoo etc.  The engines find the site through the keywords anyway.   Carmel — "Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel.   Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself!" Web sites at http://www.jaragun.com/ http://www.geocities.com/peripata/

Response:

This is just a big whine. Open Directory have just moved my MS web site off their main MS section into a sub-directory. A lot of search engine directories use Open Directory so I’m going to fall badly down the rankings as a result. I’ve just dropped down the Google rankings as well – Yahoo use Google for their searches. Yahoo won’t list it in their main MS diectory – just personal experiences – and they don’t even acknowledge my emails. It’s pretty immodest of me to say this, but the site has the most comprehensive MS news on the web (much better than Excite, Yahoo or Moreover and leaves the MS Sociey News on the blocks). And it’s indexed and searchable. The site has the most in-depth description of the disease (much better than the NIH one) and the most thorough, if incomplete, MS glossary/encyclopaedia on the web. I spend ages on medical accuracy and plain English. It’s also got the definitive list of Famous People with MS. I’ve had a few regular doctors and neurologists and lots and lots of regular PwMS say it’s the best MS site on the web but it seems that the directory editors don’t rate it. Why not? Whine whine. I spend hours and hours on the site so this is a bit depressing. Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Response:

Whine away Paul. Maybe some of us with ms and neuro’s should inform Open Directory that your site is one of the best. Carole – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Paul Jones wrote: > This is just a big whine. > Open Directory have just moved my MS web site off their main > MS section into a sub-directory. A lot of search engine > directories use Open Directory so I’m going to fall badly > down the rankings as a result. I’ve just dropped down the > Google rankings as well – Yahoo use Google for their > searches. Yahoo won’t list it in their main MS diectory – > just personal experiences – and they don’t even acknowledge > my emails. > It’s pretty immodest of me to say this, but the site has the > most comprehensive MS news on the web (much better than > Excite, Yahoo or Moreover and leaves the MS Sociey News on > the blocks). And it’s indexed and searchable. The site has > the most in-depth description of the disease (much better > than the NIH one) and the most thorough, if incomplete, MS > glossary/encyclopaedia on the web. I spend ages on medical > accuracy and plain English. It’s also got the definitive > list of Famous People with MS. > I’ve had a few regular doctors and neurologists and lots and > lots of regular PwMS say it’s the best MS site on the web > but it seems that the directory editors don’t rate it. Why > not? > Whine whine. > I spend hours and hours on the site so this is a bit > depressing. > Take care, > Paul > All About MS – the latest MS News and Views > http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Response:

I think this idea has potential, Paul.  I don’t know enough about it to be aware of all the ramifications, but it seems worth pursuing to me. Do you really think you’d need accountants, etc?  You’d certainly have to be accountable, but surely a decent accounting system would achieve that without having to employ someone.  There’s sure to be some government official who would be only too happy to audit your figures. But, as I said, I don’t know what the legalities of it are – especially in Britain. Good luck. Carmel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Paul Jones wrote: > We’re thinking of making the site into a non-profit > organisation or a charity so that we can go to companies and > ask for sponsorship – do you think that sponsorship ads > would destroy it? > Trouble is that as soon as you become "official" you start > to incur more and more costs (accounts, trustees, > consultants – God only knows what). I don’t really know what > to do. How do you think it should go? > I’d really appreciate people’s thoughts on this. > Thanks, > Paul > All About MS – the latest MS News and Views > http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/ > Paul Jones wrote: > > This is just a big whine. > > Open Directory have just moved my MS web site off their main > > MS section into a sub-directory. A lot of search engine > > directories use Open Directory so I’m going to fall badly > > down the rankings as a result. I’ve just dropped down the > > Google rankings as well – Yahoo use Google for their > > searches. Yahoo won’t list it in their main MS diectory – > > just personal experiences – and they don’t even acknowledge > > my emails. > > It’s pretty immodest of me to say this, but the site has the > > most comprehensive MS news on the web (much better than > > Excite, Yahoo or Moreover and leaves the MS Sociey News on > > the blocks). And it’s indexed and searchable. The site has > > the most in-depth description of the disease (much better > > than the NIH one) and the most thorough, if incomplete, MS > > glossary/encyclopaedia on the web. I spend ages on medical > > accuracy and plain English. It’s also got the definitive > > list of Famous People with MS. > > I’ve had a few regular doctors and neurologists and lots and > > lots of regular PwMS say it’s the best MS site on the web > > but it seems that the directory editors don’t rate it. Why > > not? > > Whine whine. > > I spend hours and hours on the site so this is a bit > > depressing. > > Take care, > > Paul > > All About MS – the latest MS News and Views > > http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

– "Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel.   Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself!" Web sites at http://www.jaragun.com/ http://www.geocities.com/peripata/

Response:

jdgargoyle wrote: > I wish I could help Paul….but from what I’ve seen about how google and > other search engines are designed the more $$$$ you have…the closer you > are to the top.

Ain’t that the truth. Alternatively, the truth is becoming something that you buy! Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Response:

I wish I could help Paul….but from what I’ve seen about how google and other search engines are designed the more $$$$ you have…the closer you are to the top. Don’t get me stahrted(said like michael meyers on Saturday night lives Coffee Talk) — Take Care : ) JulieD We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors…. but they all haveto learn to live in the same box. "Paul Jones" <Paul_Jo…@btinternet.com> wrote in message

news:3B352D9D.39BD33B7@btinternet.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is just a big whine. > Open Directory have just moved my MS web site off their main > MS section into a sub-directory. A lot of search engine > directories use Open Directory so I’m going to fall badly > down the rankings as a result. I’ve just dropped down the > Google rankings as well – Yahoo use Google for their > searches. Yahoo won’t list it in their main MS diectory – > just personal experiences – and they don’t even acknowledge > my emails. > It’s pretty immodest of me to say this, but the site has the > most comprehensive MS news on the web (much better than > Excite, Yahoo or Moreover and leaves the MS Sociey News on > the blocks). And it’s indexed and searchable. The site has > the most in-depth description of the disease (much better > than the NIH one) and the most thorough, if incomplete, MS > glossary/encyclopaedia on the web. I spend ages on medical > accuracy and plain English. It’s also got the definitive > list of Famous People with MS. > I’ve had a few regular doctors and neurologists and lots and > lots of regular PwMS say it’s the best MS site on the web > but it seems that the directory editors don’t rate it. Why > not? > Whine whine. > I spend hours and hours on the site so this is a bit > depressing. > Take care, > Paul > All About MS – the latest MS News and Views > http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Response:

Thanks Peggy, Frank, Michael, Dabrinah and Pauline – it means everything that people find the site useful. I don’t think there is much to be done except for me to go on plugging away at them. The problem is that the more time I spend banging away at their doors, the less time I get to put real content on the site. My girlfriend, Caroline, is helping me with the organisation – we’re trying to get recognition by someone who is influential enough to kick a** – like the MS Soc but in some ways I’m competing with them. If I paid Yahoo $199 then they’d guarantee to consider listing me in the main MS directory – trouble is, I don’t have cash for things like that – I already spend

Question:

I ‘ve been looking for employment, and I took a temp-to-hire job that was kind of thrust on me by a pushy recruiter. It sounded interesting, and I used to work in the same town, so I was familiar with the area, etc etc…well, it ended up taking me an hour each way to get there (two years ago it took half an hour) . I was supposed to do bookkeeping and data entry, and last weekend I fired up Quickbooks and MS Office and reacquainted myself with them. I was looking forward to it. This company had been short-staffed for so long that they gave me crappy tedious tasks. For four days I stood at the copier and made copies of reports (went through five reams of paper in one morning alone), and assembled them for mailing, and ran them through the postage meter and gave them to the mailman, and answered the phone. That’s IT. Oh, and copied and assembled huge 3-ring-binder inspection manuals. All the while the regular staff was complaining, one woman hated computers and it took her 4 hours to find a city on Mapquest and get driving directions. I offered to help her, but she refused. I was told that the dress code was casual (there was a lab in the basement where they did testing so it was kind of dusty) , but for the first two days I actually looked nicer than the other workers. In fact, one lady wore the same polyester pants for 3 days, and she looked like she hadn’t had a shower in a week! So, on Wednesday, I wore jeans. A nice pair of jeans, tailored, cuffed, and pleated, no pockets, with a new spread-collar polo shirt. Even my husband told me I looked nice that morning. But at work, the office manager took me aside and said "I don’t know if you were told, but you’re not allowed to wear jeans, it’s in the policy handbook."   I was absolutely humiliated, and in the already pissy mood I was in, that reprimand just threw me over the edge. I hid in the copier room copying mountains of reports until lunchtime, then I went out to my car and changed into a pair of black leggings that were in a bag for the Salvation Army. They looked like crap. But they weren’t made of that evil denim. No one said anything after lunch, the office manager was too busy training another temp on the accounting program! I was now seriously pissed! This guy had a shaved head with scars all over from being in a halo , his neck was fused , his eyes went in two dirfferent directions, (now I’m not dissing accident victims) and she was being all nice to him because he was a guy!  I was on the vege of tears all day, I felt totally ridiculous for that, I missed my kids and my cats and my little house, but I held it in until the drive home. Oh, and I was crying so hard I almost hit a UPS truck. I had a huge headache from the noise of the copier, phone, postage meter, and fax machine, because none of them were ever idle. On Friday I took the cowards way out and just didn’t go in. I had spent eight hours driving that week, a whole DAY. I stayed in bed and let hubby get the older kids off to school. The temp agency called, he took a message, and that afternoon I sent them an email. I was just too much of a wimp to call. I don’t even care if they pay me. They’ll never know that I am really a good employee, who was appreciated and commended, and was even an emploee-of-the-year once. I’m just the stupid temp who wore jeans, hid in the copier room, and kept messing up when transferring phone calls. Becky

Response:

Your story struck a chord with me.  The same thing happens to me all the time.  But I’m beginning to believe it’s my fault.  I’m not patient enough and I certainly can’t deal with the disappointments too well.  I have had these talks with myself before!  On my last job I worked hard to keep myself in control for 7 months.  I was told I was in line for a promotion to a programming postion and I had worked hard to learn everything I needed to know.  When the time came they didn’t give me a chance but hired someone off the street!  It was the last straw in a series of disappointments and I quit.  Now I’ve been out of work for 7 months and, it seems, no one will hire me.  I know I have to be more "thick-skinned" but I don’t seem to know how. My point is:  I think we are depressed because we are "too sensitive".  We take too much "to heart" and disappointments send us into a tailspin.  Oddly enough it is this trait that seems to bring out the creativeness in us and make some of us great artists!  If we can just find a way to reconcile our

Response:

Question:

So, when you have a chance, go rent that silly movie Canadian Bacon. It’s true. We look just like you. We sound just like you. We are taking you over.

Fun Fact: Apparently, U.S. citizens keep slipping over the border to use your free health care. So, perhaps you should be guarding your borders!

Response:

It’s hard for me, living in Quebec, to be aware of what the rest of the country really wants. But my educated guess is that they’d like Quebec to shit or else get off the pot. Either *leave*, or shut up about it and get on with being part of the country. On the other hand, I believe there are some folks in other parts of the country who are taking this separatism concept to heart and arguing that the whole darned country should split up so that various regions might then be able to join the US.

Being located in BC, I have to agree that the talk of separation usually brings up the issue of Alberta and BC joining the US.  I think that for every person who would like to see that happen, there are 50 more who would fight tooth and nail to remain in Canada.  The issue of Health Care alone is enough to scare off anyone from wanting to leave Canada.  Not to mention that their presidential elections take a year and a half to be finished.  I do love our 30 day rule. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a firm believer in the country of Canada and Quebec is a major part of this.  The existence of Quebec is what gives Canada much of its uniqueness.  Bi-lingualism, and the idea of multi-culturalism is rarely seen in other countries and I have always been proud that we are trying to make this work.  Does Quebec ever recognize their unique position in the world? I suspect not. You see, the Quebec question has defined Canadian politics for decades, and it is directly due to the desire to appease Quebec politicians that francophones in other regions of the country have been given language rights. That means that Franco-Ontarians, Franco-Manitobans and Acadians all need Quebec to be a part of the Canadian federation, because only as long as French is given equal status to English at the federal level, can these speakers of French receive services, education, etc. in their own language. And the Quebec separatist movement has said, in as many words, that the only reason they support language rights for these French minorities outside the province is to support their own demands inside Quebec. Once Quebec separates, there will be no more support from Quebec for other French-Canadians, and no reason for English Canadians to continue to give French language rights to the francophone minorities. This pisses me off, since I find it stinks of hypocrisy.

If true, then yes it is hypocritical.  I wonder though…  A lot of time and money has been spent making sure that children will be able to speak both languages and I don’t see that going away.  In BC, many people elect to send or have their children educated in French. The French language hasn’t been treated as a temporary thing.  I would assume that French would remain an official language even if Quebec did leave.  It is a part of our heritage and many people do use it as their first language. Has the country of Canada just not done enough to make Quebec happy or is it just impossible for Ottawa to satisfy the Quebecois? Yes, and yes. I think that under Pierre Trudeau a great deal was done that benefited not merely Quebec French, but francophones all across Canada. But Trudeau wasn’t doing what the separatists wanted him to do, and I think it was *because* his work to build a bilingual nation was for the whole nation and not merely to pander to the province.

 He did have his own vision of how Canada should be. I think that many people still believe that it can work. Even here on the West Coast where anything done in Ottawa is looked upon suspiciously  We still believe in Trudeau’s vision of Canada.  But with more and more immigrants, I wonder when we will have to add a third and fourth official language.  Who is going to take up that battle In recent years, the separatist premier of Quebec (like a state governor, for our US friends who are following along) tried to describe his model of separation. He wanted Quebec to be a separate country, but whose citizens could also carry Canadian passports.

I remember that – weren’t they going to keep the Canadian currency as well? The separatists, in my opinion, want to have have their cake *and* eat it. In those circumstances, Ottawa simply *can’t* satisfy them. And even if Ottawa gives Quebec "what Quebec really wants", next month there will be new demands.

Thank you for your frankness.  My inclination is to try and make Quebec happy, but it may not be possible. I remember the phrase "distinct society" causing many problems in the referendum debate, but I think that it has actually worked itself into the national language. Whether people recognize it or not, "distinct society" can be used to define many groups of people – not just Quebecker.  It is just a logical progression from multi-culturalism in my mind.  Would this recognition change anything in Quebec now? The more that the phrase is used, the more loaded it becomes. The aboriginal peoples of Canada have taken advantage of it to press their case more militantly (and more power to them, say I).

I agree.   And the anglophone population of Quebec is beginning to define itself in a more "distinct" manner. But there is no one as blind as the person who refuses to see; I suspect that the separatist eye cannot see the distinctness of anyone who can’t trace their family tree back to the arrival of Samuel de Champlain or Jacques Cartier.

 Damn my Swedish heritage! The only thing to do is ignore it, and get on with life. Heck, my husband’s grandparents managed to live a reasonably normal life in German-occupied Paris during WWII. And the current situation in Quebec is nowhere as extreme as *that* was!

I guess that we don’t really have much choice do we?  At least the Quebec issue can be left on the back burner.  I worry about the First Nations land claims being pushed onto the back burner.  I want this issue settled.  We have to attempt to resolve this during this generation. It has gone on too long.  Ah well that is a whole different can of worms. Thank you for taking the time to respond.  On the west coast we don’t often hear how the average Quebec citizen feels about this issue.  Somehow the politicians get all of the ink Maggie

Response:

I’ll preface my comments with a little of my personal history.   I was born and raised in Montreal.  My family are all English speaking.  I moved to Nova Scotia three years ago to get away from the anti-Anglo sentiment that was rampant in some Quebecois.

     Monkland?  Is the Ben & Jerry’s shop still open? (near Harvard and Monkland I think). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m pretty sure that more than half the people in Quebec feel much the same way, because the separatist party lost the last referendum. So I think that things will bumble along the same way for another few decades. Meantime, we keep on keeping on. Wonderful history lesson, Tara  I am curious about the Quebec opinion is for the rest of Canada.  Does what the rest of Canada want even factor into the desire to separate?   It’s hard for me, living in Quebec, to be aware of what the rest of the country really wants. But my educated guess is that they’d like Quebec to shit or else get off the pot. Either *leave*, or shut up about it and get on with being part of the country.

     From what I can gather from friends, the general consensus is "You’ve tried and failed. So you tried again, and failed.  So you tried yet again.  Give it up already."        I remember seeing a comedian several years ago talking about the Quebec habit of infinite referenda.  Her comments were somewhat along the lines of "It’s like being at a frat party where a frat boys wants to have sex with you.  When you say no he keeps asking you until you finally say yes".  Sad but true, this appears to be what the Separatists want.        Every time there is another referendum more non-Francophones leave the province.  Less and less English speaking people means less people likely to vote "No".  Unfortunately, foreign investment into Quebec also drops off so by the time they finally get their "victory" they’ll have to appeal for international aid to feed the people who’ve stayed.      I’ll let lie, for now, the "ceative accounting" that led the Separatists to proclaim that they only lost by a narrow margin last time. On the other hand, I believe there are some folks in other parts of the country who are taking this separatism concept to heart and arguing that the whole darned country should split up so that various regions might then be able to join the US.

     I saw an interview with a US statesman several years ago where he admitted that the States had been in talks with Quebec about Quebec joining the US after a separatism.  He stated at the time that the politicians from Quebec were delusional if they thought that the US would let them get away with the shenanigans that they’ve pulled in Canada.  To paraphrase what he said: ‘If Quebec were to become a State in the United States, the first thing we would do would be to send in an English speaking Governor and the army.  Get rid of the political structure currently in place.  Due to the history of the province, any further talk about separatism would be met with a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy.’      I don’t think that this would be a good option for Canada, although it might be nice to pay American prices for things. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am a firm believer in the country of Canada and Quebec is a major part of this.  The existence of Quebec is what gives Canada much of its uniqueness.  Bi-lingualism, and the idea of multi-culturalism is rarely seen in other countries and I have always been proud that we are trying to make this work.  Does Quebec ever recognize their unique position in the world?   I suspect not. You see, the Quebec question has defined Canadian politics for decades, and it is directly due to the desire to appease Quebec politicians that francophones in other regions of the country have been given language rights. That means that Franco-Ontarians, Franco-Manitobans and Acadians all need Quebec to be a part of the Canadian federation, because only as long as French is given equal status to English at the federal level, can these speakers of French receive services, education, etc. in their own language.

     There’s a flipside to this.  I have friends who know Franco-New Brunswickers.  The Francophone community in New Brunswick apparently wish that Quebec would shut the fuck up.  Because of the nature of the Quebec Situation, Franco-Canadians are put in the bad position of being assumed to be separatists.  Apparently they feel that they are being persecuted because of Quebec.  New Brunswick is a bilingual province with a large Francophone population, but French speaking residents feel that they have to fight harder to get what they need. There is a certain amount of distrust, fearing that the Francophone community wants to become a second Quebec. And the Quebec separatist movement has said, in as many words, that the only reason they support language rights for these French minorities outside the province is to support their own demands inside Quebec. Once Quebec separates, there will be no more support from Quebec for other French-Canadians, and no reason for English Canadians to continue to give French language rights to the francophone minorities.

     I suspect that in the case of a seperation, there would be a terrible backlash against the French in Canada.  It might even be worse than what English Quebecers have had to deal with inside Quebec. This pisses me off, since I find it stinks of hypocrisy.

     Politics is a game of hypocrisy.      Doesn’t anyone find it odd that the most staunch separatist politicians have strong ties to England and the United States? Doesn’t anyone find it odd that Premier Bouchard’s kids don’t speak French at home? Has the country of Canada just not done enough to make Quebec happy or is it just impossible for Ottawa to satisfy the Quebecois? Yes, and yes. I think that under Pierre Trudeau a great deal was done that benefited not merely Quebec French, but francophones all across Canada. But Trudeau wasn’t doing what the separatists wanted him to do, and I think it was *because* his work to build a bilingual nation was for the whole nation and not merely to pander to the province.

     Quebec separatists will never be happy until, like the mythical tale of Nero playing violin as Rome burned around him, they watch the province of Quebec tumble into ruin.  The goal here isn’t a better future for Quebecers, it’s a place in history.        Personally I think that Trudeau should have called the army in to Quebec when the Separatists started whining.  Unfortunately, he pandered to a group that will never be placated, allowing them to grow.        When I was a child, there was no talk of separatism in Quebec. Sure there were separatists, but they were a small group of people whom no one paid any mind.  Starting in the early 70’s they were allowed to blossom in the spotlight with full media coverage, which allowed them to recruit new members by the thousands. From a small revolutionary group to ruling class in five years.  This is why other provinces with Francophone populations fear to let French become too dominant – Lemmings should not be allowed to make the vacation plans for the entire country, we’ve seen what they do for fun and it’s suicide. In recent years, the separatist premier of Quebec (like a state governor, for our US friends who are following along) tried to describe his model of separation. He wanted Quebec to be a separate country, but whose citizens could also carry Canadian passports.

     All the benefits of being Canadian without any of the responsibility.      Quebec politicians have ranted about how Quebecers pay double the taxes that other Canadians do (False, they just pay to two sources rather than one) and that as a sovereign Quebec they would do away with these redundant taxes.  This is, not surprisingly, complete bullshit.  Provincial taxation in Quebec started well after federal taxation, so they are the "Jean Guy come lately".  Plus, as a sovereign country that is no longer receiving benefits from Canada, taxes would have to raise considerably to maintain the standard of living.  This will fail, but you can’t tell the separatists this. The separatists, in my opinion, want to have have their cake *and* eat it. In those circumstances, Ottawa simply *can’t* satisfy them. And even if Ottawa gives Quebec "what Quebec really wants", next month there will be new demands.

     Quebec is a petulant three year old holding a gun.  If you give them what they want they will change their minds.  The best that you can hope for is that they will grow up or die an early death.  Leaving the gun in the hands of the petulant three year old is dangerous and stupid.  Pierre Trudeau didn’t recognise this in time. I remember the phrase "distinct society" causing many problems in the referendum debate, but I think that it has actually worked itself into the national language. Whether people recognize it or not, "distinct society" can be used to define many groups of people – not just Quebecker.  It is just a logical progression from multi-culturalism in my mind.  Would this recognition change anything in Quebec now?   The more that the phrase is used, the more loaded it becomes. The aboriginal peoples of Canada have taken advantage of it to press their case more militantly (and more power to them, say I). And the anglophone population of Quebec is beginning to define itself in a more "distinct" manner.

     Oh are there issues here!        I guess that the first issue is with the "French" distinctness, and French Quebecers truly are distinct, although not as they would like to be.  They see themselves

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Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You think it’s pathetic *you* don’t know about Canada? A few years ago they asked a bunch of Canadian schoolchildren the name of our first Prime Minister. Our first PM was Sir John A. Macdonald. Most of the kids said it was ***Ronald McDonald***. Ouch! The thing that confuses me is your relationship with the UK, and the whole commonwealth thing. Ok. The deal is, just like the British sent a bunch of colonists over to found the original 13 colonies, they sent colonists all over the place. They used Australia as a penal colony, and I’ve heard that in Oz it is today a prestigious thing to be able to say that your several-times-great grandparents were convicts. Kinda like the American families whose ancestors came over on the Mayflower. Canada had already been inhabited by French colonists, mainly in what is now the province of Quebec, and French explorers struck out from there to discover pretty much the entire continent. That’s why you run into French names all across the US, like Pierre SD, and Detroit. In 1759 British forces defeated the French (from France) forces at Quebec City and placed these northern French holdings under British control. The French held onto Louisiana, the Spanish got involved, and there’s a whole different set of events that went on there. During the years leading up to the American Revolution, and much as we’ve seen going on in asd on this whole Gore-Bush debate, not everyone in the 13 colonies thought that British governance was a *bad* thing. That’s why in Canada we think Benedict Arnold was a war hero, while in US schools it is taught that he was a traitor. Anyway during the Revolutionary period and immediately after, a lot of the pro-British colonists left the new American republic and moved into the colonies that had remained under British rule. In 1812 the US and Britain were at war for awhile, and since Britain was several weeks away by boat and Canada (known in those days as Upper Canada and Lower Canada, or the Canadas) was a lot closer by all the methods of land transportation. So of course you guys did the human thing and fought us because it was a lot easier. We whupped your ass. PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP There were a couple of attempts in 1837 by non-English British colonists (I mean Scots & Irish and the like) in Upper Canada, and by French habitants (when your family has lived there for 200 years, it’s a bit rude to have people call you a colonist) in Lower Canada, to do the revolution thing and squirm out from under British rule. Didn’t work, and in Quebec (Lower Canada) a lot of revolutionaries ran for the border and settled in Vermont, upstate New York and New Hamster – ooops – New Hampshire, which is one reason you have so many, many French names in that part of the US. What happened instead, is that Canada became more and more self-governing, and our creation as a country occurred as a political action by a bunch of men in suits sitting around in back rooms, rather than as a popular movement actively supported by men with guns fighting and dying for their beliefs. We became a country in 1867, and in 1981 we repatriated our Constitution from Great Britain. This was a symbolic act that in essence means the Canadian buck stops here. Prior to that, there was *always* the moment when the Canadian processes had been exhausted, and then we had the right (not always exercised) or perhaps the responsibility (not always respected) to take things over to GB for review by the House of Lords. From the family dynamic point of view, this is similar to two kids growing up with a strict parent; one kid (US) runs away from home, has some tough times, but eventually grows up and faces the parent on equal terms. The other kid (Canada) stays in the home, has some disagreements with the parent, but over time is given more and more responsibility and freedom until both parties agree it’s time to leave the parental home and strike out alone. That’s it for the relationship between Canada and Britain. Now the Commonwealth. Remember all those other colonies I mentioned many, many paragraphs ago? All the ones that weren’t part of the 13 colonies? Well, as they "grew up" and became more or less self-governing, they became the members of the Commonwealth. Common wealth. That wealth which once belonged to the British Empire (the one the sun never sets on), and which now belongs to the individual nations that used to be the Empire. It sounds a whole lot more romantic than the reality. The Commonwealth is like a family reunion (to dig up my family metaphor) that keeps the siblings friendly with one another and maintains the family ties. The historical connection among these former colonies has become a series of treaties either of the whole group or between individual members, that cover trade, immigration, extradition, security, foreign aid. Another way to look at it is that it’s the Empire’s old boys network. With increasing globalization, we’re finding that the Commonwealth is quietly dissolving, but the network of treaties it fostered is surviving and evolving. I’ve been in Windsor several times.  Aside from the weird paper money and the French language signs, it was like being in a Detroit suburb. So, when you have a chance, go rent that silly movie Canadian Bacon. It’s true. We look just like you. We sound just like you. We are taking you over. So, are you a French-canadian, or are just living in Montreal?  What’s the deal with Quebec anyway – are they ever going to secede? I’m what we refer to here as an "anglophone". I was born on Canada’s east coast (New Brunswick, where Bev Thornton lives), moved to Upper Canada (now called Ontario) in my teens and spent much of my young adulthood there, and then moved to Montreal about 15 years ago. I will never be considered a "Quebecoise" because my mother tongue is English. And I will never be considered a "Quebecker" because I wasn’t born here. (That habitant mentality that I mentioned earlier.) My son, however, was born in Montreal, so I *am* the mother of a Quebecker. I’m bilingual, English-French, and in my younger, more melodramatic days I supported separation. Today, I’m a great deal more cynical. I say to the separatist party, we’ve voted it into power several times, and each time it has demonstrated all too clearly that it cannot govern the province as a province. I will not vote for it to separate and run us as a country until it can show that it knows *how* to govern. I’m pretty sure that more than half the people in Quebec feel much the same way, because the separatist party lost the last referendum. So I think that things will bumble along the same way for another few decades. Meantime, we keep on keeping on. Besides, thor, remember the dog that chased cars? Chased them and chased them, barking his fool head off. Then one day, he caught one. And he didn’t know what to do with it. I think our separatist politicians are pretty much like that dog. They know how to fight for separation. But the minute they get it, they’re all out of a job, because they don’t know how to govern. Just my opinion. It’s open for discussion. Tara J. Ballance Montreal, Canada

Wow, this is an excellent post.  Thank you. To be honest, I really don’t know a hell of a lot about American history either. I feel so ashamed.  How much do you charge to Tudor?

Response:

I’m pretty sure that more than half the people in Quebec feel much the same way, because the separatist party lost the last referendum. So I think that things will bumble along the same way for another few decades. Meantime, we keep on keeping on.

Wonderful history lesson, Tara  I am curious about the Quebec opinion is for the rest of Canada.  Does what the rest of Canada want even factor into the desire to separate?   I am a firm believer in the country of Canada and Quebec is a major part of this.  The existence of Quebec is what gives Canada much of its uniqueness.  Bi-lingualism, and the idea of multi-culturalism is rarely seen in other countries and I have always been proud that we are trying to make this work.  Does Quebec ever recognize their unique position in the world?  Has the country of Canada just not done enough to make Quebec happy or is it just impossible for Ottawa to satisfy the Quebecois? I remember the phrase "distinct society" causing many problems in the referendum debate, but I think that it has actually worked itself into the national language. Whether people recognize it or not, "distinct society" can be used to define many groups of people – not just Quebecker.  It is just a logical progression from multi-culturalism in my mind.  Would this recognition change anything in Quebec now?   Maggie very curious

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just wanted to say I respect your balanced, thought-out responses to people, even people you disagree with. who are you responding to? — "I’d rather be loved by only me,      than create a facade and be loved by no one." — wombn "Never give up", Winston Churchill x-no-archive is in the headers www.mindspring.com/~wombn

Tara.  Doesn’t that show up in the thread?  Follow the little lines.

Response:

is this about wombn ? I just wanted to say I respect your balanced, thought-out responses to people, even people you disagree with.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

After Tuesday it may be appropriate. alt.support.depression.politics?

Before you buy.

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You think it’s pathetic *you* don’t know about Canada? A few years ago they asked a bunch of Canadian schoolchildren the name of our first Prime Minister. Our first PM was Sir John A. Macdonald. Most of the kids said it was ***Ronald McDonald***.

Ouch! The thing that confuses me is your relationship with the UK, and the whole commonwealth thing. I’ve been in Windsor several times.  Aside from the weird paper money and the French language signs, it was like being in a Detroit suburb. So, are you a French-canadian, or are just living in Montreal?  What’s the deal with Quebec anyway – are they ever going to secede?

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I just wanted to say I respect your balanced, thought-out responses to people, even people you disagree with.

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alt.support.depression.politics?

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alt.support.depression.politics?

You and Truthseeker? — greg ::

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alt.support.depression.politics? You and Truthseeker? AND YOU.  Don’t make me go redownload all of asd and count how many YOU contributed.

Moi? =8^D — greg ::

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well, our political system CAN be pretty depressing. James

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alt.support.depression.politics?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alt.support.depression.politics? Since the political environment is a major contributor to *my* depression, I think your idea is well worth pursuing. BTW, the US doesn’t have a monopoly on difficult election decisions. Our Prime Minister decided that he was going to call an election. He had a majority of seats in the Parliament, and about 3 years to go before he was legally bound to call an election. But that wasn’t good enough for him. Now the whole country is wondering how we can throw his party out, or at least wound it mortally, because the only person in the country who wanted this election was *him*. Yeah, thor, you know what? I think we need asdp. Pdq. Tara J. Ballance Montreal, Canada

You know what’s pathetic?  I know almost nothing about Canada.  It’s pretty shameful almost, they taught us nothing about Canadian history in school.  I’m putting this on my list of things to do.

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Question:

He’s using the at-home server (Relevant text with *** *** around it)

Duh…  I forgot to check the message properties.:)

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What is spammnig?  Sorry, new to the internet and don’t know much about it. Jon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He’s using the at-home server (Relevant text with *** *** around it) Duh…  I forgot to check the message properties.:)

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[Cross-posted with followups directed to alt.acting] What is spammnig?  Sorry, new to the internet and don’t know much about it.

It includes indiscriminately posting to multiple newsgroups, as you just did.  For a more complete description, look here:     http://spam.abuse.net/whatisspam.html — Daniel Norton

Response:

*cough*

message into the email. It is obvious from his cross postings he is going down the list. Regards, Aaron BTW: here are the message properties… Path:

spln!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!howland.erols.net!n n tp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.bc.home.com.POSTED!no t – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -for-mail Newsgroups: alt.accounting,alt.acting,alt.activism Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.113.136.93 X-Trace: news1.rdc1.bc.home.com 945320097 24.113.136.93 (Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:54:57 PST) Xref:  spln alt.accounting:19568 alt.acting:42145 alt.activism:208520 (ADULTS ONLY) Excellent porn site I found. Check it out. Its worth you while! http://www.seek69.com/cgi-bin/hits/ads.pl?advert=2301 lvswcdssnxzwectjxmuvtcsxehchbg

Response:

He’s using the at-home server (Relevant text with *** *** around it) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *cough* message into the email. It is obvious from his cross postings he is going down the list. Regards, Aaron BTW: here are the message properties… Path: spln!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!howland.erols.net!n n tp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.bc.home.com.POSTED!no t -for-mail Newsgroups: alt.accounting,alt.acting,alt.activism Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.113.136.93

***** X-Trace: news1.rdc1.bc.home.com 945320097 24.113.136.93 (Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:54:57 PST)

****

*****

**** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Xref:  spln alt.accounting:19568 alt.acting:42145 alt.activism:208520 (ADULTS ONLY) Excellent porn site I found. Check it out. Its worth you while! http://www.seek69.com/cgi-bin/hits/ads.pl?advert=2301 lvswcdssnxzwectjxmuvtcsxehchbg

Response:

message into the email. It is obvious from his cross postings he is going down the list. Regards, Aaron BTW: here are the message properties… Path: spln!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!howland.erols.net!n n tp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.bc.home.com.POSTED!no t -for-mail Newsgroups: alt.accounting,alt.acting,alt.activism Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.113.136.93 X-Trace: news1.rdc1.bc.home.com 945320097 24.113.136.93 (Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:54:57 PST) Xref:  spln alt.accounting:19568 alt.acting:42145 alt.activism:208520

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (ADULTS ONLY) Excellent porn site I found. Check it out. Its worth you while! http://www.seek69.com/cgi-bin/hits/ads.pl?advert=2301 lvswcdssnxzwectjxmuvtcsxehchbg

Response:

Question:

What is the Midwest Express incident you mentioned?  Can anyone provide some information on this accident in which all pax were killed?  How many onboard, where did it happen, what type of aircraft was involved?   This is the first I’ve heard of this 1985 accident. Thanks, Jeremy

: Coment: Only one startup airline has had a fatal incident since : deregulation.  That was the May ‘96 Everglades ValuJet crash.  That : incident has been determined to be the fault of a third party — not : the airline or its employees. : : I have been reminded of the Midwest Express incident in 1985, in which : all on board died. : : Air Florida at DCA, Jan 82 (which most people would say is post-deregulation). : Definitely attributed to the airline. : : :

Response:

What is the Midwest Express incident you mentioned?  Can anyone provide some information on this accident in which all pax were killed?  How many onboard, where did it happen, what type of aircraft was involved?   This is the first I’ve heard of this 1985 accident.

Here ya go: NTSB Identification: DCA85AA036 For details, refer to NTSB microfiche number 28310A Scheduled 14 CFR 121 operation of MIDWEST EXPRESS AIRLINES,INC. Accident occurred SEP-06-85 at MILWAUKEE, WI Aircraft: DOUGLAS DC-9-14, registration: N100ME Injuries: 31 Fatal. DRG TAKEOFF, THE ACFT (MIDWEST EXPRESS FLT 105) WAS CLIMBING THRU ABOUT 450′ AGL WHEN THERE WAS A LOUD NOISE AS THE RGT ENG FAILED. SHORTLY THEREAFTER, THE ACFT ENTERED A STEEP DSCNT & CRASHED IN AN APRX 90 DEG, RGT WING LOW, ATTITUDE. AN INV REVEALED THAT THE 9TH TO 10TH STAGE, HI PRESSURE COMPRESSOR SPACER IN THE RGT ENG HAD FAILED. THERE WAS EVIDENCE THE FAILURE WAS PRECIPITATED BY A FATIGUE CRACK IN 1 OF THE 2 KNIFE EDGES ON THE SPACER. INITIALLY, CORRECT (LEFT) RUDDER RESPONSE WAS USED TO COMPENSATE FOR THE LOSS OF POWER IN THE RGT ENG, BUT ABOUT 4 TO 5 SEC LATER, RGT RUDDER DEFLECTION OCCURRED. APRX 10 SEC AFTER THE RGT ENG FAILED, THE ACFT STALLED & WENT OUT OF CONTROL. ALSO, ABOUT 1.5 SEC AFTER THE INITIAL RGT ENG FAILURE, THERE WAS A REDUCTION IN THE LEFT ENG’S RPM, & SUBSEQUENTLY, THE ENG COMPRESSOR STALLED AFTER THE ACFT WENT OUT OF CONTROL & WAS DSCNDG IN AN UNUSUAL ATTITUDE. HOWEVER, THE REDUCTION OF POWER IN THE LEFT ENG WAS NOT CONSIDERED SIGNIFICANT TO THE LOSS OF CONTROL. NEITHER PLT VERBALLY IDENTIFIED THE EMERG CONDITION DRG THE SEQUENCE. Probable Cause Flight controls..Improper use of..Pilot in command Emergency procedure..Improper..no person specified Stall..Inadvertent..Pilot in command Contributing Factors Compressor assembly..Fatigue Crew/group coordination..Improper..no person specified sources:  www.ntsb.gov and www.aviation-safety.net Rich

Response:

Thanks Rich! Jeremy : Here ya go: : : NTSB Identification: DCA85AA036 For details, refer to NTSB microfiche : number 28310A : : Scheduled 14 CFR 121 operation of MIDWEST EXPRESS AIRLINES,INC. : Accident occurred SEP-06-85 at MILWAUKEE, WI : Aircraft: DOUGLAS DC-9-14, registration: N100ME : Injuries: 31 Fatal. : : DRG TAKEOFF, THE ACFT (MIDWEST EXPRESS FLT 105) WAS CLIMBING THRU ABOUT : 450′ AGL WHEN THERE WAS A LOUD NOISE AS THE RGT ENG FAILED. SHORTLY : THEREAFTER, THE ACFT ENTERED A STEEP DSCNT & CRASHED IN AN APRX 90 DEG, RGT : WING LOW, ATTITUDE. AN INV REVEALED THAT THE 9TH TO 10TH STAGE, HI PRESSURE : COMPRESSOR SPACER IN THE RGT ENG HAD FAILED. THERE WAS EVIDENCE THE FAILURE : WAS PRECIPITATED BY A FATIGUE CRACK IN 1 OF THE 2 KNIFE EDGES ON THE : SPACER. INITIALLY, CORRECT (LEFT) RUDDER RESPONSE WAS USED TO COMPENSATE : FOR THE LOSS OF POWER IN THE RGT ENG, BUT ABOUT 4 TO 5 SEC LATER, RGT : RUDDER DEFLECTION OCCURRED. APRX 10 SEC AFTER THE RGT ENG FAILED, THE ACFT : STALLED & WENT OUT OF CONTROL. ALSO, ABOUT 1.5 SEC AFTER THE INITIAL RGT : ENG FAILURE, THERE WAS A REDUCTION IN THE LEFT ENG’S RPM, & SUBSEQUENTLY, : THE ENG COMPRESSOR STALLED AFTER THE ACFT WENT OUT OF CONTROL & WAS DSCNDG : IN AN UNUSUAL ATTITUDE. HOWEVER, THE REDUCTION OF POWER IN THE LEFT ENG WAS : NOT CONSIDERED SIGNIFICANT TO THE LOSS OF CONTROL. NEITHER PLT VERBALLY : IDENTIFIED THE EMERG CONDITION DRG THE SEQUENCE. : : Probable Cause : : Flight controls..Improper use of..Pilot in command : Emergency procedure..Improper..no person specified : Stall..Inadvertent..Pilot in command : : Contributing Factors : : Compressor assembly..Fatigue : Crew/group coordination..Improper..no person specified : : sources:  www.ntsb.gov and www.aviation-safety.net : : Rich

Response:

I won’t argue that.  The guy from AvWeek might, though. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -But did Air Florida exist before 1979?  The article specifically stated that it was referring to airlines that started up after deregulation. It’s a matter of interpretation. Air Florida started in 1972. However, before deregulation, it never operated more than 10 aircraft. Immediately upon deregulation, Air Florida expanded to a high water mark of about 50 aircraft, which it had at the time of the accident when the airline started to fall apart. In my opinion, Air Florida’s existence as a corporation prior to deregulation is basically irrelavant, compared to its history after deregulation.

Response:

Both points are well-taken.  Nevertheless, the 737’s go first, according to the stated policy of the airline.  Later today I will be in a position to look at the Nov 1 fleet status of the airline and will let you know. Steve

I will grant commonality over increased capacity.  BTW, which routes does FL use its 737-200s on??? Rich

Response:

AirTran have 9 737’s left.  4 will be gone by the end of the year and the remaining 5 to be disposed of by 1Q00. I don’t know  AirTran’s route structure.  I assume they left the 737’s on their pre-ValuJet routes. Coment: Only one startup airline has had a fatal incident since deregulation.  That was the May ‘96 Everglades ValuJet crash.  That incident has been determined to be the fault of a third party — not the airline or its employees. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Both points are well-taken.  Nevertheless, the 737’s go first, according to the stated policy of the airline.  Later today I will be in a position to look at the Nov 1 fleet status of the airline and will let you know. Steve I will grant commonality over increased capacity.  BTW, which routes does FL use its 737-200s on??? Rich

Response:

AirTran uses the 737’s mostly on: ATL-MCO ATL-BOS ATL-DFW ATL-MDW flights. Any AirTran flight number beginning with the #8 is operated using the 737 (at least that’s how it was set up when I flew them back in the summer). — Jeremy —

: I will grant commonality over increased capacity.  BTW, which routes : does FL use its 737-200s on??? : : Rich

Response:

AirTran uses the 737’s mostly on: ATL-MCO ATL-BOS ATL-DFW ATL-MDW flights.

So these are all cities which have LARGE population bases or are relatively long range for DC-9-30s. Rich

Response:

AirTran have 9 737’s left.  4 will be gone by the end of the year and the remaining 5 to be disposed of by 1Q00. I don’t know  AirTran’s route structure.  I assume they left the 737’s on their pre-ValuJet routes. Coment: Only one startup airline has had a fatal incident since deregulation.  That was the May ‘96 Everglades ValuJet crash.  That incident has been determined to be the fault of a third party — not the airline or its employees.

I have been reminded of the Midwest Express incident in 1985, in which all on board died.  Since I was quoting AvDaily in the above, I assume I failed to include some key phrase like "in the last 10 years" or "in the 1990’s" that further qualified the statement. My point was that AirTran still takes the heat for the ValuJet incident for which they were not at fault.  Furthermore, from what I can tell, the only relationship between  ValuJet and today’s AirTran is that they use the same equipment.  I think AirTran gets a "bum rap."  (My apologies to those for whom "American" is not a first language.) Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steve Both points are well-taken.  Nevertheless, the 737’s go first, according to the stated policy of the airline.  Later today I will be in a position to look at the Nov 1 fleet status of the airline and will let you know. Steve I will grant commonality over increased capacity.  BTW, which routes does FL use its 737-200s on??? Rich

Response:

Coment: Only one startup airline has had a fatal incident since deregulation.  That was the May ‘96 Everglades ValuJet crash.  That incident has been determined to be the fault of a third party — not the airline or its employees. I have been reminded of the Midwest Express incident in 1985, in which all on board died.  

Air Florida at DCA, Jan 82 (which most people would say is post-deregulation). Definitely attributed to the airline.

Response:

Coment: Only one startup airline has had a fatal incident since deregulation.  That was the May ‘96 Everglades ValuJet crash.  That incident has been determined to be the fault of a third party — not the airline or its employees. I have been reminded of the Midwest Express incident in 1985, in which all on board died.   Air Florida at DCA, Jan 82 (which most people would say is post-deregulation). Definitely attributed to the airline.

But did Air Florida exist before 1979?  The article specifically stated that it was referring to airlines that started up after deregulation. Steve Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

But did Air Florida exist before 1979?  The article specifically stated that it was referring to airlines that started up after deregulation.

It’s a matter of interpretation. Air Florida started in 1972. However, before deregulation, it never operated more than 10 aircraft. Immediately upon deregulation, Air Florida expanded to a high water mark of about 50 aircraft, which it had at the time of the accident when the airline started to fall apart. In my opinion, Air Florida’s existence as a corporation prior to deregulation is basically irrelavant, compared to its history after deregulation.

Response:

Both points are well-taken.  Nevertheless, the 737’s go first, according to the stated policy of the airline.  Later today I will be in a position to look at the Nov 1 fleet status of the airline and will let you know. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beg your pardon, but the 737’s go first.  There were only ever a few (12?) and the comonality between the 717 and DC9 makes it more economical to keep the DC9 as long as possible.  It’s quite likely that some of the 737’s are already gone. I wouldn’t be so fast about that.  The 737s do have more capacity than do any of the DC-9s.  Plus, most of the 737s are newer than any of the DC-9s in FL’s fleet.  While all the DC-9s are -30 series, some are bordering on ancient – 1968ish. Rich Additionally, they announced last week that they will take a large accounting charge this quarter to write down a bunch (if not all) of their DC-9-30s to estimated fair market value on the books; this is consistent with planning to accelerate the disposal of the aircraft. See: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/991105/fl_airtran_1.html Their actions, explicit and implied, do seem to indicate dumping the DC-9s first as the 717s arrive. I would expect the 737s to go as it becomes economically feasible to do so, which may or may not be after the last DC-9 goes, though it sounds like they want to get rid of most DC-9s first. — Kevin Hecht – http://idt.net/~khecht19/ "There are two things that can disrupt the American economy. One is a war. The other is a meeting of the Federal Reserve Board." – Will Rogers

Response:

Beg your pardon, but the 737’s go first.  There were only ever a few (12?) and the comonality between the 717 and DC9 makes it more economical to keep the DC9 as long as possible.  It’s quite likely that some of the 737’s are already gone.

I wouldn’t be so fast about that.  The 737s do have more capacity than do any of the DC-9s.  Plus, most of the 737s are newer than any of the DC-9s in FL’s fleet.  While all the DC-9s are -30 series, some are bordering on ancient – 1968ish. Rich

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beg your pardon, but the 737’s go first.  There were only ever a few (12?) and the comonality between the 717 and DC9 makes it more economical to keep the DC9 as long as possible.  It’s quite likely that some of the 737’s are already gone. I wouldn’t be so fast about that.  The 737s do have more capacity than do any of the DC-9s.  Plus, most of the 737s are newer than any of the DC-9s in FL’s fleet.  While all the DC-9s are -30 series, some are bordering on ancient – 1968ish. Rich

Additionally, they announced last week that they will take a large accounting charge this quarter to write down a bunch (if not all) of their DC-9-30s to estimated fair market value on the books; this is consistent with planning to accelerate the disposal of the aircraft. See: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/991105/fl_airtran_1.html Their actions, explicit and implied, do seem to indicate dumping the DC-9s first as the 717s arrive. I would expect the 737s to go as it becomes economically feasible to do so, which may or may not be after the last DC-9 goes, though it sounds like they want to get rid of most DC-9s first. — Kevin Hecht – http://idt.net/~khecht19/ "There are two things that can disrupt the American economy. One is a war. The other is a meeting of the Federal Reserve Board." – Will Rogers

Response:

Does anyone know if AirTran plans on retiring the 737’s or the DC-9’s first? I remember reading somewhere that AirTran wants to speed up the retirement process of it’s older aircraft and wondered if that meant they were going to get rid of once aircraft type first. Anyone know? — Jeremy —

Response:

DC9s are dumped first.   Hopefully the old ValuJet DC9’s that were purchased from Air Turkey go first.   You rarely see the 737’s at the Atlanta hub, it’s nearly all DC9’s so the new replacment 717’s will probably be flocking mostly here in Atlanta. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know if AirTran plans on retiring the 737’s or the DC-9’s first? I remember reading somewhere that AirTran wants to speed up the retirement process of it’s older aircraft and wondered if that meant they were going to get rid of once aircraft type first. Anyone know? — Jeremy —

Response:

Beg your pardon, but the 737’s go first.  There were only ever a few (12?) and the comonality between the 717 and DC9 makes it more economical to keep the DC9 as long as possible.  It’s quite likely that some of the 737’s are already gone. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – DC9s are dumped first.   Hopefully the old ValuJet DC9’s that were purchased from Air Turkey go first.   You rarely see the 737’s at the Atlanta hub, it’s nearly all DC9’s so the new replacment 717’s will probably be flocking mostly here in Atlanta. Does anyone know if AirTran plans on retiring the 737’s or the DC-9’s first? I remember reading somewhere that AirTran wants to speed up the retirement process of it’s older aircraft and wondered if that meant they were going to get rid of once aircraft type first. Anyone know? — Jeremy —

Response:

Question:

I have set up the terms e.g. 2% 10 Net 30 and associated it with the customer. I then send out invoice to customer for e.g. 10-00 ukp Then when I receive payment 5 days later for 9-80 ukp and enter this into Quickbooks against the invoice it still shows up as 20p outstanding. I was expecting the discount of 2% to cause this invoice to be closed. Can anyone explain how Quickbooks deals with discounts? Thanks Alan

Response:

I then send out invoice to customer for e.g. 10-00 ukp Then when I receive payment 5 days later for 9-80 ukp and enter this into Quickbooks against the invoice it still shows up as 20p outstanding. I was expecting the discount of 2% to cause this invoice to be closed.

In the Receive Payment window, enter the amount of payment and select the invoice (or first of more than one) to apply it to.  Then click the DISCOUNT INFO button and accept or edit the data.   QB probably does it this way because the customer may calculate the discount differently from you and you may either agree or disagree with him.

Response:

I then send out invoice to customer for e.g. 10-00 ukp Then when I receive payment 5 days later for 9-80 ukp and enter this into Quickbooks against the invoice it still shows up as 20p outstanding. I was expecting the discount of 2% to cause this invoice to be closed. In the Receive Payment window, enter the amount of payment and select the invoice (or first of more than one) to apply it to.  Then click the DISCOUNT INFO button and accept or edit the data.   QB probably does it this way because the customer may calculate the discount differently from you and you may either agree or disagree with him.

Unfortunately my UK version 5.0 doesn’t have a DISCOUNT INFO button! It displays a date up to which the discount applies, but doesn’t appear to act upon it. Any further ideas please? cheers Alan —-

Response:

I would be grateful if someone can recommend a good book on Trust Accounting or even a good WWW site. Thanks Derek

Response:

Question:

Got this in the mail… THIS IS TRUE – PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT AND PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERY SINGLE PERSON YOU KNOW WHO HAS AN E-MAIL ADDRESS…THIS IS REALLY TERRIFIC. My daughter and I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & decided to have a small dessert.  Because both of us are such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie".  It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and the waitress said with a small frown, "I’m afraid not."    "Well," I said, "would you let me buy the recipe?"  With a cute smile, she said "Yes".  I asked how much and she responded, "Only two fifty, it’s a great deal!"  I said with approval, "Just add it to my tab". Thirty days later, I received my charge statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00.  I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20 for a scarf.  As I glanced at the bottom of the statement it said "Cookie Recipe – $250.00."  That’s outrageous!!  I called Neiman’s Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "two-fifty", which clearly does not mean "two hundred and fifity dollars" by any POSSIBLE interpretation of the phrase.  Neiman-Marcus refused to budge.  They would not refund my money, because according to them, "What the waitress told you is not our problem.  You have already seen the receipe – we absolutely will not refund you money at this point."  I explained to her the criminal statues which govern fraud in Texas, I threatened to refer them to the Better Business Bureau and the State’s attorney General for engaging in fraud.  I was basically told, "Do what you want, we don’t care, and we’re not refunding your money."  I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try to get any of my money back.  I just said, "Okay, you folks got my $250, and now I’m going to have $250 worth of fun.  I told her that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover in the US with an e-mail account gets a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus…for free. She replied, "I wish you wouldn’t do this."  I said, "Well, you should have thought of that before you ripped me off", and slammed down the phone on her.  So here it is!! Please, please, please pass it on to everyone you can possible think of. I paid $250 for this…I don’t want Neiman-Marcus to EVER get another penny off of this recipe. (Recipe may be halved) 2 cups Butter 4 cups flour 2 tsp. baking soda 2  cups sugar 5 cups blended oatmeal* 24 oz. chocolate chips 2 cups brown sugar 1 tsp. salt 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) 4 eggs 2 tsp. baking powder 2 tsp. vanilla 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) 1. * Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder 2. Cream the butter and both sugars 3. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder and soda 4. Add chocalte chips, Hershey Bar and nuts 5. Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet 6. Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees.  Makes 112 cookies. Have fun!! This is not a joke— this is a true story.  Ride free, citizens!!! — Best regards / Med vennlig hilsen,       Aase Marit ))))))            ("Aw-Se-Mareet" from Norway) http://w1.2380.telia.com/~u238000263/flaker/docs/index.html

Response:

Hi, Great cookie recipe, but…  check out http://www.urbanlegends.com for the real scoop on this oft-emailed/otherwise routed story.  When I first heard it about 10 years ago, the offender was Mrs. Fields!!!!

Tee-hee… I thought that it might be a hoax like a lot of other "chain-letters" I get through e-mail. But, this one at least was useful and the cookies sounded delicious, so I didn’t bother to check… Anybody tried them? — Best regards / Med vennlig hilsen,       Aase Marit ))))))            ("Aw-Se-Mareet" from Norway) http://w1.2380.telia.com/~u238000263/flaker/docs/index.html

Response:

I made them several times when they were going around a few years ago under the Mrs. Field’s name, and they ARE good!  Grinding up the oatmeal is a bit of a nuisance, but it seems to add something to the texture.  Try them!  –Judy

Response:

I made them several times when they were going around a few years ago under the Mrs. Field’s name, and they ARE good!  Grinding up the oatmeal is a bit of a nuisance, but it seems to add something to the texture.  Try them!  –Judy

My wife still makes them once in a while.  They really are good.  To produce the oat flour, I have found that my electric coffee mill does the easiest, fastest, best, job. —- Mark (The Skipper) Sweany To reply remove "remove".

Response:

This is what is called an "urban legend" in this country.  And it definitely is a hoax.  It’s been around at least 15 years that I know of.

This is about the so called Neiman Marcus cooky recipe. So people must lead really boring lives. -Kris-

Response:

Hi  from drdoc. i would die for a mrs fields cookie. We dont get them here. Those macadamia nut white choc chip cookies drive me mad – and its one of the first things i do when i get to the USA. I think that mrs fields branch next to toys r us in new york know me by now – every  november i pitch up and empty the counter Its a real USA treat. I actually considered getting a franchise here in RSA – but their email bounced, and i never followed it up. GASP – So im afraid i just have to wait for november again. You guys in the USA are lucky – you just dont realize HOW lucky. We foreigners are jealous. Regards drdoc the deprived fan of mrs fields cookies…. sniff…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Great cookie recipe, but…  check out http://www.urbanlegends.com for the real scoop on this oft-emailed/otherwise routed story.  When I first heard it about 10 years ago, the offender was Mrs. Fields!!!! Tee-hee… I thought that it might be a hoax like a lot of other "chain-letters" I get through e-mail. But, this one at least was useful and the cookies sounded delicious, so I didn’t bother to check… Anybody tried them? — Best regards / Med vennlig hilsen, Aase Marit ))))))            ("Aw-Se-Mareet" from Norway) http://w1.2380.telia.com/~u238000263/flaker/docs/index.html

Response:

Mrs Fields is headquartered in Park City, just up the mountain from me. If you offered a proper bribe, I might be convinced to send you some <g.  BTW, it’s Ms. Fields now – she just got a divorce. Walt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi  from drdoc. i would die for a mrs fields cookie. We dont get them here. Those macadamia nut white choc chip cookies drive me mad – and its one of the first things i do when i get to the USA. I think that mrs fields branch next to toys r us in new york know me by now – every  november i pitch up and empty the counter Its a real USA treat. I actually considered getting a franchise here in RSA – but their email bounced, and i never followed it up. GASP – So im afraid i just have to wait for november again. You guys in the USA are lucky – you just dont realize HOW lucky. We foreigners are jealous. Regards drdoc the deprived fan of mrs fields cookies…. sniff….

Response:

Hi  from drdoc. i would die for a mrs fields cookie.

Gee Dr. Doc, November is a long way away.  I bet Mrs. Field’s would be happy to Fedx you a batch anytime. — Take Care, Phyllis

Response:

I feel so terrible for you DrDoc.  We have a Mrs. Fields in every mall, on every street, in every town……l walk by very quickly because they definitely are addictive.  LOL Marlynn A day in which I haven’t learned something new is a day lost……

Response:

Hi Aase: This thing has been going around the states for years. Paula Got this in the mail… THIS IS TRUE – PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT AND PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERY SINGLE PERSON YOU KNOW WHO HAS AN E-MAIL ADDRESS…THIS IS REALLY TERRIFIC.

<snipped Neiman-Marcus cookie stuff

Response:

This thing has been going around the states for years. Paula Got this in the mail…

I received this story about a year ago, but it was supposedly the Mrs Field’s recipe. Tried to make them and it was horrible (And I make good cookies!!!). Looks like the same recipe. —Ali life is what happens when you’re making other plans…

Response:

Hi Aase, This is what is called an "urban legend" in this country.  And it definitely is a hoax.  It’s been around at least 15 years that I know of. Anne Anne Christopherson "Old roses are full of instructions on how to live right."

Response:

Actually, it’s been around since at least the forties, when my mother-in-law got the recipe for "Waldorf Astoria Cake" from HER mother, along with the same story (just a different restaurant and recipe).  That one shows up now and again too, even after all those years.  How we love to believe!  –Judy Wood

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Got this in the mail… THIS IS TRUE – PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT AND PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERY SINGLE PERSON YOU KNOW WHO HAS AN E-MAIL ADDRESS…THIS IS REALLY TERRIFIC. My daughter and I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & decided to have a small dessert.  Because both of us are such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie".  It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and the waitress said with a small frown, "I’m afraid not."    "Well," I said, "would you let me buy the recipe?"  With a cute smile, she said "Yes".  I asked how much and she responded, "Only two fifty, it’s a great deal!"  I said with approval, "Just add it to my tab". Thirty days later, I received my charge statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00.  I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20 for a scarf.  As I glanced at the bottom of the statement it said "Cookie Recipe – $250.00."  That’s outrageous!!  I called Neiman’s Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "two-fifty", which clearly does not mean "two hundred and fifity dollars" by any POSSIBLE interpretation of the phrase.  Neiman-Marcus refused to budge.  They would not refund my money, because according to them, "What the waitress told you is not our problem.  You have already seen the receipe – we absolutely will not refund you money at this point."  I explained to her the criminal statues which govern fraud in Texas, I threatened to refer them to the Better Business Bureau and the State’s attorney General for engaging in fraud.  I was basically told, "Do what you want, we don’t care, and we’re not refunding your money."  I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try to get any of my money back.  I just said, "Okay, you folks got my $250, and now I’m going to have $250 worth of fun.  I told her that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover in the US with an e-mail account gets a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus…for free. She replied, "I wish you wouldn’t do this."  I said, "Well, you should have thought of that before you ripped me off", and slammed down the phone on her.  So here it is!! Please, please, please pass it on to everyone you can possible think of. I paid $250 for this…I don’t want Neiman-Marcus to EVER get another penny off of this recipe. (Recipe may be halved) 2 cups Butter 4 cups flour 2 tsp. baking soda 2  cups sugar 5 cups blended oatmeal* 24 oz. chocolate chips 2 cups brown sugar 1 tsp. salt 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) 4 eggs 2 tsp. baking powder 2 tsp. vanilla 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) 1. * Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder 2. Cream the butter and both sugars 3. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder and soda 4. Add chocalte chips, Hershey Bar and nuts 5. Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet 6. Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees.  Makes 112 cookies. Have fun!! This is not a joke— this is a true story.  Ride free, citizens!!! — Best regards / Med vennlig hilsen,       Aase Marit ))))))            ("Aw-Se-Mareet" from Norway) http://w1.2380.telia.com/~u238000263/flaker/docs/index.html

Great cookie recipe, but…  check out http://www.urbanlegends.com for the real scoop on this oft-emailed/otherwise routed story.  When I first heard it about 10 years ago, the offender was Mrs. Fields!!!! -T.

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