Question:

    Notice the lie, altogether typical of those involved in the enforcement of "child support," that the money is "due to children."  It is not, as those who make the statement know very well.  It’s owed to the mothers of the children.  However, it doesn’t look good for all this law enforcement machinery to be cranked up to force men to pay money to adult women.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.   —- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle —

Response:

    Notice the lie, altogether typical of those involved in the enforcement of "child support," that the money is "due to children."  It is not, as those who make the statement know very well.  It’s owed to the mothers of the children.  However, it doesn’t look good for all this law enforcement machinery to be cranked up to force men to pay money to adult women.

The other usual lie is in this article too – Claiming how the CS program "collected" millions of dollars.  Most of that money is paid voluntarily by fathers and the CS program does have to lift a finger to "collect" any of it.  It’s total garbage for any state CS program, supported by federal laws mandating employer garnishment orders, to take credit for actions they never do.

Response:

This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony.  Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies.

I’ve heard of cases where the moment a guy gets out of jail the DA slaps him with a felony non-payment of child support charge. Of course, the idea that non-payment of a debt should be a felony is ridiculous and overreaching. Criminalizing historically non-criminal conduct is a recent fetish of legislatures across the country. Check out www.overcriminalized.com.

Response:

    Nebraska is 10 years statute of limitations, Iowa has no statute of limitations….and Iowa is one of the BIG offenders of abusing men.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? It depends on the state – in Wisconsin, it’s 20 years past when the youngest child turns 18. T

Response:

  I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude   just has a criminal record. Gotcha.     It’s like this Tiffany…  1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction   for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender"     It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other   states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go   directly to jail.     Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200.  But the "get out of jail free"   card does work.  Wish I had one of those…     California has a ‘three strikes’ law.  The first two have to be violent   felonies, but the third does not have to be violent.     Personally, I would prefer that the third offense have to be violent,   also, but I can accept this law in it’s present form.  I mean, c’mon,   if a person has committed *TWO VIOLENT* crimes, something is up and I   questions that person’s ability to function as a responsible adult.   If I recall correctly, in Mich, it is simply felony convictions,  it could be shop lifting and carrying a knife that was a 1/2" to ‘long’     —   Whose cruel idea was it to put an ’s’ in the word lisp?

Response:

  If I recall correctly, in Mich, it is simply felony convictions,  it could be shop lifting and carrying a knife that was a 1/2" to ‘long’

It could just as easily be felony conviction of "failure to pay" one’s CS…

Response:

LMAO! It is NEVER about the kids! It is about politics. There has been some form of support enforcement program available for YEARS. So how is it that the government officials who ARE RESPONSIBLE for enforcing the support orders in the first place ever let the arrearage in this case reach more than $43,000??? Incompetance, that’s how! So now to cover their incompetence, they point the finger at "dead-beat dad’s:"! Quite correct, if the man is in Jail, then he wont be able to pay ANYTHING. and, as usual, the children will suffer – right along with the dad – while some politician cites "vicotry" ‘in the best interests of the child". Given the other stories about ‘lost" child support funds, I suspect that all the government is doing is using this as a cash grab. the money will eventually be collected, but the system will "mysteriously" lose the money somehow! So, again, the father suffers, and the children suffer. What a load of crap. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? — Always borrow money from a pessimist, he doesn’t expect to be paid back.  ~Author Unknown

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? I’m commenting on the circumstances published in the article, not defending this guy.  I read the quote above in the context the state claiming they just became aware of the delinquent CS payments.  This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony.  Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies.

Oh yeah, that is probaly a right assumption. I thought the habitual thing was CS related, not just over all criminal record. My bad. lol

Response:

"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????

I’m commenting on the circumstances published in the article, not defending this guy.  I read the quote above in the context the state claiming they just became aware of the delinquent CS payments.  This guy obviously had two other felony convictions on some other offenses, and the CS charge, if proven, would be his third felony.  Just speculating, this guy probably ran up the CS arrearage while sitting in prison for the first two felonies. How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?

State laws vary in making that determination.  Most have laws keeping the CS judgement active for a 7-10 year period.  After that the CS judgment can be re-upped for an additional  7-10 year period.  So, in theory, the state can continue to go after the obligor forever.

Response:

I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha. It’s like this Tiffany…  1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender" It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go directly to jail. Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200.  But the "get out of jail free" card does work.  Wish I had one of those…

California has a ‘three strikes’ law.  The first two have to be violent felonies, but the third does not have to be violent. Personally, I would prefer that the third offense have to be violent, also, but I can accept this law in it’s present form.  I mean, c’mon, if a person has committed *TWO VIOLENT* crimes, something is up and I questions that person’s ability to function as a responsible adult. — Whose cruel idea was it to put an ’s’ in the word lisp?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   <big snip   So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged   accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status   if   she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the   children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?   "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary   examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and   third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????   How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?   T   Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat.  Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" . The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined. I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha.

It’s like this Tiffany…  1 DUI + 1 bar fight + 1 felony conviction for non-payment of CS = "habitual offender" It’s the some on the order of the "3 strikes, your out" law other states have, which works like this.. you commit 3 "crimes" and you go directly to jail. Do not pass ‘GO" or collect $200.  But the "get out of jail free" card does work.  Wish I had one of those…

Response:

Depends on what state you’re in. Some don’t allow for collection of arrearages afert three years…some 20, some, as Dusty said, no limit.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T As I understand it..  there is NO statute of limitations on the collection of CS.  So long as you owe any amount of CS, the state will come after it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   <big snip   So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged   accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status   if   she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the   children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?   "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary   examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and   third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????   How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?   T   Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat.  Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" .  The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined.

I see…. so that has nothing to do with collecting CS. This dude just has a criminal record. Gotcha. T

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? "McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension.  I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father.  The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying.  I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state.  It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids.  Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case.  If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures. Not true. My ex was in the arrears 5,000 and they did nothing. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him? "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?

It depends on the state – in Wisconsin, it’s 20 years past when the youngest child turns 18. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – T

Response:

    There is probably a lot in play that isn’t being said here.     He may have had an order he was paying on ( same here 1987 order…lot of confusion involved with changes in custody back and forth ), she contacts CSE or CSRU and they get involved ( automatically, the amounts seem to take on astronomical proportions) with the state suddenly impuning wages that may or may not exist and may or may not ( but most likely ) inflate those wages, add on what the state says has been rendered to CP for support services, WIC, HHS services for food, health, dental, legal ( and it keeps adding ), plus interest ( Iowa tags on an additional 10% annually to arrearages ).     It is very possible this poor schmuck has nothing, never had anything, and now he never will. CSRU can hound you to the grave unless you can derail them. In my case, I have been denied services by Legal Aid ( although Iowa did give me an attorney that quit one day before the initial court hearing, leaving me to represent myself ), Volunteer Lawyers have refused assistance ( lawyers are required to do so much Pro Bono work annually, I have been told ) because it is an interstate case, Iowa refuses to relinquish any claims to jurisdiction, even though I have never been a resident of Iowa, the divorce was not in Iowa, and no one ( not the ex or the children ) reside in Iowa any longer….and they are in violation of 28 USC 1738A ( also known as the "Parental Kidnapping Prevention Act" ).     So, in short, they get to change the rules, reinterpret law to suit their purpose, and they will do everything ( including breaking laws and rules ) to keep the man paying. I have YET to see a single mother be pursued in this fashion, making this a very gender based ( biased, prejudiced ) system. If you can find ANY enforcements of this sort and extreme on record being done against a woman, I’d like to see it.     Anyone?     It ain’t just Michigan, and it ain’t just the guys making in the new reports. This stuff is happening every day, and from my observation ( jaded as it is ), it is usually the guys that have paid or have made the effort that are being reamed the worst. The true "deadbeats" are seldom ever heard from.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.

Response:

    Iowa has no statute of limitations, and so may Michigan. They can harass a man to his grave and take anything of value left in his estate at his death to satisfy their liens, levies, and arrearages.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T

Response:

    <big snip   So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged   accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status   if   she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the   children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?           "The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary   examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and   third-offense habitual offender."   –  ?????       How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS?     T     Mich has a ‘habitual offender law, which allows the state, at their discretion to swing a sledge hammer at a gnat.  Let’s say a person get’s convicted of a DUI, at age 18, then 10 years later, gets convicted for being in a bar fight…….now along comes the "criminal falilure to pay" .  The state can prosecute him as a ‘habitual offender" and slap him with more jail time for that than he ever would have gotten for the other three combined.  

Response:

"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T

As I understand it..  there is NO statute of limitations on the collection of CS.  So long as you owe any amount of CS, the state will come after it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail. Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? "McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension.  I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father.  The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying.  I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state.  It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids.  Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case.  If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures.

Not true. My ex was in the arrears 5,000 and they did nothing. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?

"The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender."   –  ????? How long can the state continue to go after a payee for CS? T

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court. Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website?

"McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said." They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point.

I’m usually pretty good at reading comprehension.  I cannot find any cite in the article I am reading to indicate this is a first, second, third, etc. offense by the father.  The federal statute is based on the dollar amount and the crossing of state borders to willfully avoid paying.  I saw no reference in the article to indicate the father moved to another state.  It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids.  Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same

If the state did not know about the $43,000 arrearage until the mother contacted the Paykids website that is a clear indication the state was not involved in tracking and collecting CS in this case.  If a father hiccups around the $2,500 arrearage level the state kicks in all kinds of punitive measures. So if this father is sitting in jail based on a mother’s alleged accusations, where are his rights?   How can he regain his former status if she is making up all of the allegations?  Why did she wait until the children under a 1986 court order are obviously adults to come after him?

Response:

Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.   —- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle —

Response:

Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart

Todd Dick Mac? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler.

So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said.

"It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court.

Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? — Always borrow money from a pessimist, he doesn’t expect to be paid back.   ~Author Unknown

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.

Where do they say the state was unaware until she contacted the website? They claim him to be a third offense habitual offender at one point. It also says his unemployment checks were being garnished but it doesn’t say that happen AFTER she contacted Paykids. Her kids are obviously pretty old, how long can they continue to try to collect? I also don’t understand why you wonder how they established the 43,000? I take it that she filed of the CS in 1986. IT doesn’t say she didn’t file. Where does it say there are no CS accounting records to back the claim?? I am wondering if I read the same T

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right? LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed.

I came away with a different take on what is going on here.  A 1986 order would be before the changes to the government getting further involved in CS enforcement.  It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that the states started collecting non-TANF CS.  The state claimed to not be aware of the $43,000 arrearage until after she contacted the Paykids website for help.  The state found him and got a garnishment against his unemployment.  My guess is she wasn’t aware of the type of help the state could have provided her earlier So the underlying questions become – How did the state establish the $43,000 arrearage amount?  Is the amount just based on the mother’s verbal statements?  If this guy actually paid her, but didn’t keep good records of those payments he is probably in a world of hurt.  But if I were him I’d try to make her prove I owed what she claims since there are no apparent previous state CS accounting records to back up her claim of the amount due. Of course, in a "he said, she said" scenario the mother almost always wins the sympathy of the court.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dusty quoted: Adrian man charged with felony failure to pay child support By Dennis Pelham — Daily Telegram Staff Writer ADRIAN — The first felony case in Lenawee County for failure to pay child support under a Michigan Attorney General program was sent Thursday to circuit court for prosecution. Delinquent support payments totaling $43,626 earned Todd Richard McTaggart Todd Dick Mac? the attention from Lansing. The 40-year-old Adrian man waived a preliminary examination on felony counts of refusing to pay child support and third-offense habitual offender. McTaggart was bound over to Lenawee County Circuit Court for arraignment June 9. He was returned to jail where he has been held a week for failing to post a bond equal to the delinquent support payments. Public defender Robert Jameson said the Attorney General’s office refused McTaggart’s offer to post 10 percent of the $43,626 amount as a bond. He said McTaggart, an out-of-work construction worker, is currently having payments taken from his unemployment checks to apply toward the arrearage. McTaggart faces a possible one-year jail term if convicted. Attorney General Michael Cox started an initiative called Paykids in October that features an interactive Web site and criminal prosecutions of parents who are able to pay support but refuse to do so, said Attorney General spokesman Stu Sandler. So, is he’s unemployed, and collecting unemployment checks, how is he "able" to pay?  At least the full amount owed, of course.  I know, they cover their asses below.  The question is still valid. McTaggart’s case came to the attention of the office’s child support collection program when the custodial parent contacted the Paykids Web site, Sandler said. "This was quite a considerable amount, especially in the Lenawee County area," he said. The goal of the child support enforcement program is to collect money that is due to children, he said, and not simply to have delinquent parents spend time in jail. The program has collected $3.5 million from parents across Michigan since October, he said, including heavyweight boxer James Toney and former Detroit Lion Bennie Blades. Sandler said credit reports and other history indicate McTaggart is capable of paying support payments that have gone uncollected since 1986. "It’s our belief that there are assets that have not been disclosed," he said. "It’s our belief…"  Does that mean they are making wild-ass guesses and don’t really know?  Any respectable person would have more to go on than ‘belief’ when going after a punishment such as this. Jameson said his client disagrees and will contest the claim in circuit court. Now, if he hasn’t paid since 1986, it seems obvious to me that he could have paid something in that time.  However, if he is paying something now, even lifted from his unemployment checks, then he should not be facing jail time at all.  How would jail time help anybody?  I would assume his unemployment checks would stop if he were in jail.  Then, his kids would get nothing during that time.  How does that help them? It is about the kids, right?

LOL… no. I wonder why the CP contacted that website about her ex if she was finally getting payments via the unemployment checks. Heck, if she hadn’t gotten anything since 1986, you would think she would be tickled pink to get something. If he goes to jail, she gets nothing. This is all about revenge, its not even greed. T

Response:

Question:

Hi You can try using TALLY from India. It is a nice and good accounting s/w with accounting and inventory. You have online help and is keyboard freindly. Ram, Malaysia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I wonder if someone could recommend some simple accounting software for use in the UK.  Its for a small business and doesn’t *have* to include payroll, although I’m fairly flexible about it. I’ve been using Sage instand accounting v6 for a few years and to be honest, I’ve never been happy with it, just isn’t intuitive enough for non accountants I don’t think. Any personal experiences with software would be gratefully recieved. Thanks Andy.

Response:

Hi, I wonder if someone could recommend some simple accounting software for use in the UK.  Its for a small business and doesn’t *have* to include payroll, although I’m fairly flexible about it. I’ve been using Sage instand accounting v6 for a few years and to be honest, I’ve never been happy with it, just isn’t intuitive enough for non accountants I don’t think. Any personal experiences with software would be gratefully recieved. Thanks Andy.

Response:

Question:

My spread sheet showed that the difference between flying a new C182 or SR20 and flying my clubs 1975 Arrow for 100 hours was almost $10,000/year.   I used the OurPlane Gold level for comparison.  This comparison did NOT attempt to factor in the cost of depreciation.

I suspect depreciation alone on a $200,000+ new plane could be $20,000 or more over 3 years. It might turn out more like leasing a brand new Chevy every 3 years (OurPlane) vs. buying a used Lexus (buying a used C182 and equipping it to the hilt). — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

Response:

In 1967 I bought a brand new, Plymouth Barracuda that came with a 50,000-mile warranty. This might not have been the only reason the U. S. had to bailout Chrysler, but it certainly contributed.

Yet today 50,000 miles is pretty normal for a high quality (read Japanese) car.  The reason is continuous improvement.  Continuous improvement is, for all practical purposes, made impossible by the FAA. Michael

Response:

You’re right.  I was thinking of turbocharged engines.  If you run them at high power and high altitude they usually overheat.   A Turbo Lance without an aftermarket intercooler will generally have CHTs well over 410 above 75% power above 16K feet.  The POH shows performance at something like 84% power at FL200 as being 190kts but the engine probably won’t live very long if operated there (these numbers are from memory YMMV).  Add mixture control and the potential for problems is increased significantly. Most Garrett (now Honeywell) TPE331-14 engines, usually found on Cheyenne 400LS airplanes, are on MSP.  As a result, they are generally operated flat-out all the time, significantly increasing operating costs. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These programs are available for turbine engines.  The problem with doing this for  piston engines is that everyone would run them at full power all the time and the engines often can’t take it. Actually, most piston engines will very happily run at full throttle all the time, as long as you keep pouring in the fuel and keep the cowl flaps open enough that they don’t overtemp. The real problem with doing this for piston engines is that you have all the reliability of 40 year old technology. These days you can get most new cars with warranties that go on for 5+ years or more (some offer an extended factory warranty for 10 years) and most late-model used cars can be bought with a warranty as well. 40 years ago, an auto dealer would have laughed at the concept. The reliability of automotive piston engines (and aircraft turbine engines, for that matter) has improved greatly in the past 40 years. The aircraft piston engines are basically the same as they were then. Michael

Response:

Plan            Silver         Gold          Platinum Buy-in          32,900        37,900          41,900 Monthly fee        399           499             599

Ooops.  Hours under Gold should be 100.   — Marty Shapiro Silicon Rallye Inc.

Response:

These days you can get most new cars with warranties that go on for 5+ years or more (some offer an extended factory warranty for 10 years) and most late-model used cars can be bought with a warranty as well. 40 years ago, an auto dealer would have laughed at the concept.

In 1967 I bought a brand new, Plymouth Barracuda that came with a 50,000-mile warranty. This might not have been the only reason the U. S. had to bailout Chrysler, but it certainly contributed. — Dan N9387D at BFM

Response:

It’s not a cost savings, I hope I didn’t imply that it would be. The original poster was looking essentially for some kind of insurance that would mean his costs would be predictable. If you want predictability, you’re going to have to pay more unless you happen to be the unlucky one that would’ve had a major issue. Insurance is not free, but some people value the predictability. -Jon C.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another angle on this might be to look into one of the fractional ownership outfits. They essentially are doing something like this, I think – you pay them some capital amount plus a (fixed?) maintenance fee plus a variable rate for hours flown. Example: http://www.ourplane.com It is such a cost savings that they do not even put their prices on the website. — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

Response:

I looked into our plane about a year ago.  

How do they calculate your equity when you eventually sell? Do you have to put in more equity every few years when they buy new planes? These factors could (and probably do) substantially increase the cost.   Depending on how the accounting is done, you could well lose money vs. buying your own plane — *especially* vs. buying your own used plane in top condition. Depreciation on a brand-new plane is very high, just like a new car. — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

Response:

I looked into our plane about a year ago.   How do they calculate your equity when you eventually sell? Do you have to put in more equity every few years when they buy new planes?

I don’t remember for sure, but believe so.  The plan was to replace the aircraft every three years or so. These factors could (and probably do) substantially increase the cost.   Depending on how the accounting is done, you could well lose money vs. buying your own plane — *especially* vs. buying your own used plane in top condition. Depreciation on a brand-new plane is very high, just like a new car.

Yes.  I agree completely.  But, then that is exactly what one expects when buying a new car.  IMHO, OurPlane is to private aviation what a high end luxury car is to driving.  And, just like the better luxury car dealers, they do provide a luxury level of service to the owners. I see a very good market for OurPlane, but it just wasn’t for me. My spread sheet showed that the difference between flying a new C182 or SR20 and flying my clubs 1975 Arrow for 100 hours was almost $10,000/year.   I used the OurPlane Gold level for comparison.  This comparison did NOT attempt to factor in the cost of depreciation. — Marty Shapiro Silicon Rallye Inc.

Response:

These programs are available for turbine engines.  The problem with doing this for  piston engines is that everyone would run them at full power all the time and the engines often can’t take it.

Actually, most piston engines will very happily run at full throttle all the time, as long as you keep pouring in the fuel and keep the cowl flaps open enough that they don’t overtemp. The real problem with doing this for piston engines is that you have all the reliability of 40 year old technology. These days you can get most new cars with warranties that go on for 5+ years or more (some offer an extended factory warranty for 10 years) and most late-model used cars can be bought with a warranty as well. 40 years ago, an auto dealer would have laughed at the concept. The reliability of automotive piston engines (and aircraft turbine engines, for that matter) has improved greatly in the past 40 years. The aircraft piston engines are basically the same as they were then. Michael

Response:

Another angle on this might be to look into one of the fractional ownership outfits. They essentially are doing something like this, I think – you pay them some capital amount plus a (fixed?) maintenance fee plus a variable rate for hours flown. Example: http://www.ourplane.com

It is such a cost savings that they do not even put their prices on the website. — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

Response:

http://www.ourplane.com

I looked into our plane about a year ago.   Plus:  New aircraft (C182, SR20, SR2).        ALL maintenance, tie down, and insurance included.          Aircraft fully equipped, including DC headsets.        Someone to look after the aircraft between flights. Prices:  Each plan included a fixed number of hours at $109/hr wet.  Above          that rate was $139/hour wet. Plan            Silver         Gold          Platinum Buy-in          32,900        37,900          41,900 Monthly fee        399           499             599 Total costs    50 hrs/year  10,238         11,438         12,638    75 hrs/year  13,713         14,163         15,363   100 hrs/year  17,188         16,888         18,088   150 hrs/year  24,138         23,838         23,538 Note that the total costs above assume 0% opportunity cost of the buy-in principle.  At 6% opportunity cost, the 100 hrs/year entry would be:   100 hrs/year  19,162         19,162         20,602 While the new  plane was attractive, I decided I could live with an older plane at significantly lower cost and bought a 1/4 share in a Rallye 235. — Marty Shapiro Silicon Rallye Inc.

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Another angle on this might be to look into one of the fractional ownership outfits. They essentially are doing something like this, I

I think these are a very poor deal.  When you look at the monthly and hourly rates, they are usually quite high.  And the biggest question mark is how they calculate depreciation/appreciation on your capital investment. Can anyone point to an example of general aviation fractional ownership which truly is less expensive than owning? For that matter, can anyone point to an example of business jet fractional ownership which truly is less expensive than chartering a jet with no obligation? — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

Response:

Anyone know of an insurance company that offers a warranty on a used aircraft engine (or the entire aircraft) at the time a plane is purchased?

Turbine/jet airplanes sometimes are maintained on a fixed per-hour basis.  I think that is the closest to a used "guarantee" one can find. I do not think this is offered for piston airplanes. I doubt a short-term warranty would work; the costs are so variable in airplane maintenance that they really need to be averaged over time.   And there are so many judgment issues as well as to when an item needs to be replaced so that a long-term contract is needed to make things workable. If this were offered for single-engine planes, I suspect most owners would not be willling to pay what it costs — such a program would no doubt include all suggested 50-hr. maintenance, all service bulletins, all overhauls at TBO, all time-limited parts, regular replacement of hoses, miscellaneous items like turbocharger check valve replacement, honoring TBOs by calendar as well as hours, etc., etc. (basically Part 135 level maintenance).  Those owners willing and able to pay for such maintenance probably could/would just pay for it directly (and average out the spikes in costs) rather than pay an insurance company a premium simply to administrate this process. — Richard Kaplan, CFII www.umrpc.com/p210

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Another angle on this might be to look into one of the fractional ownership outfits. They essentially are doing something like this, I think – you pay them some capital amount plus a (fixed?) maintenance fee plus a variable rate for hours flown. Example: http://www.ourplane.com -Jon C.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know of an insurance company that offers a warranty on a used aircraft engine (or the entire aircraft) at the time a plane is purchased? What would it be worth to those who are purchasing a plane to warrant the engine in the plane they are buying against a loss of compression, cracked cylinder / head, or other major malfunction – cracked crankcase, rod, piston, crankshaft problem etc. – the really expensive things that would require removal of cylinders or the entire engine to repair (not a simple rocker cover gasket leak, fouled plug , vacuum pump failure etc.) for a period of 120 days or 100 hours whichever comes first? Assume that the warranty company would inspect the engine at pre-purchase inspection time.  The warranty rate would be scaled to the cost of a zero-time engine from the manufacturer and somewhat proportional to the % of TBO hours on the engine.  Would it be 2%, 3%, 4%, or what % of the cost of a zero-time engine to warranty a mid-life engine (600-800 hours) with a $250 deductible?  One could probably reduce their pre-purchase inspection cost by doing this. Payouts for several types of repairs (cylinder / piston replacement, etc.) would be fixed and documented clearly in the policy and even more technically for the repair facility (like they do for dentists and HMOs). Engines requiring complete rebuilds would be shipped to a well-known engine rebuilder or to the factory. As an aircraft seller would you be interested in purchasing this type of insurance to make a plane more marketable? Do you think a successful warranty program would have to cover the entire airplane and not just the engine?  How do you exclude the normal pre-existing conditions that normally exist in most used planes?  Do you think only a fully comprehensive policy would fly (full pre-purchase inspection included, full aircraft coverage, all maintenance, annuals, all repairs, no deductible, for 2 years)?  How much is that worth in % of planes book value scaled up by age and hours (roughly 20% – 50% of planes value spread evenly across coverage period)? Not trying to sell anything here, I don’t know if such a company even exists (excluding those for jets), just collecting opinions for a possible business idea.  Any input or desires around this would be appreciated. Thanks, George Sconyers PP-ASEL-IA Piper Saratoga II TC N6124M

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These programs are available for turbine engines.  The problem with doing this for  piston engines is that everyone would run them at full power all the time and the engines often can’t take it. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know of an insurance company that offers a warranty on a used aircraft engine (or the entire aircraft) at the time a plane is purchased? What would it be worth to those who are purchasing a plane to warrant the engine in the plane they are buying against a loss of compression, cracked cylinder / head, or other major malfunction – cracked crankcase, rod, piston, crankshaft problem etc. – the really expensive things that would require removal of cylinders or the entire engine to repair (not a simple rocker cover gasket leak, fouled plug , vacuum pump failure etc.) for a period of 120 days or 100 hours whichever comes first? Assume that the warranty company would inspect the engine at pre-purchase inspection time.  The warranty rate would be scaled to the cost of a zero-time engine from the manufacturer and somewhat proportional to the % of TBO hours on the engine.  Would it be 2%, 3%, 4%, or what % of the cost of a zero-time engine to warranty a mid-life engine (600-800 hours) with a $250 deductible?  One could probably reduce their pre-purchase inspection cost by doing this. Payouts for several types of repairs (cylinder / piston replacement, etc.) would be fixed and documented clearly in the policy and even more technically for the repair facility (like they do for dentists and HMOs). Engines requiring complete rebuilds would be shipped to a well-known engine rebuilder or to the factory. As an aircraft seller would you be interested in purchasing this type of insurance to make a plane more marketable? Do you think a successful warranty program would have to cover the entire airplane and not just the engine?  How do you exclude the normal pre-existing conditions that normally exist in most used planes?  Do you think only a fully comprehensive policy would fly (full pre-purchase inspection included, full aircraft coverage, all maintenance, annuals, all repairs, no deductible, for 2 years)?  How much is that worth in % of planes book value scaled up by age and hours (roughly 20% – 50% of planes value spread evenly across coverage period)? Not trying to sell anything here, I don’t know if such a company even exists (excluding those for jets), just collecting opinions for a possible business idea.  Any input or desires around this would be appreciated. Thanks, George Sconyers PP-ASEL-IA Piper Saratoga II TC N6124M

Response:

Anyone know of an insurance company that offers a warranty on a used aircraft engine (or the entire aircraft) at the time a plane is purchased? What would it be worth to those who are purchasing a plane to warrant the engine in the plane they are buying against a loss of compression,  cracked cylinder / head, or other major malfunction – cracked crankcase, rod, piston, crankshaft problem etc. – the really expensive things that would require removal of cylinders or the entire engine to repair (not a simple rocker cover gasket leak, fouled plug , vacuum pump failure etc.) for a period of 120 days or 100 hours whichever comes first? Assume that the warranty company would inspect the engine at pre-purchase inspection time.  The warranty rate would be scaled to the cost of a zero-time engine from the manufacturer and somewhat proportional to the % of TBO hours on the engine.  Would it be 2%, 3%, 4%, or what % of the cost of a zero-time engine to warranty a mid-life engine (600-800 hours) with a $250 deductible?  One could probably reduce their pre-purchase inspection cost by doing this. Payouts for several types of repairs (cylinder / piston replacement, etc.) would be fixed and documented clearly in the policy and even more technically for the repair facility (like they do for dentists and HMOs). Engines requiring complete rebuilds would be shipped to a well-known engine rebuilder or to the factory. As an aircraft seller would you be interested in purchasing this type of insurance to make a plane more marketable? Do you think a successful warranty program would have to cover the entire airplane and not just the engine?  How do you exclude the normal pre-existing conditions that normally exist in most used planes?  Do you think only a fully comprehensive policy would fly (full pre-purchase inspection included, full aircraft coverage, all maintenance, annuals, all repairs, no deductible, for 2 years)?  How much is that worth in % of planes book value scaled up by age and hours (roughly 20% – 50% of planes value spread evenly across coverage period)? Not trying to sell anything here, I don’t know if such a company even exists (excluding those for jets), just collecting opinions for a possible business idea.  Any input or desires around this would be appreciated. Thanks, George Sconyers PP-ASEL-IA Piper Saratoga II TC N6124M

Response:

Question:

profiling is based on statistical analysis, imo. we all do it without even realising it everday.

True, and properly used it is a very useful tool.  This is why the enforcement organizations have put up such a howl about having it taken away.

While profiling can be effective, I disagree that it is necessarily based on SA.  Its use should be monitored and it’s misuse precluded. It would be indefensible of the Germans and our police agencies to ignore red flags— that said, there is a difference between keeping an eye open and acting without specific cause. Tippy

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I thought I’d branch off a bit on this one and propose what I see as what the "hoped for" change in behavior would be from the indictment of Andersen.  My own bias is that, to the extent the indictment (and other related issues coming from Enron) achieve this goal, they achieve a good. And to the extent they do not, they are arguably counterproductive. To oversimplify a bit, I see three classes of CPAs we have to deal with: 1.  Those who are totally honest, above board, and who will also not tolerate actions by any person in the organization they are working for that violates professional standards.  To tie it to Enron–had they seen the shredding taking place or had they become aware of accounting issues that Duncan was "papering over" against the recommendations of the PSG, they would have kept pushing complaints up the line until either someone at the organization took action *OR* they decided they couldn’t work for the organization any longer. I fully believe there *are* these types at Andersen and that they will be unjustly punished by whatever negative results occur to Andersen due to the Enron fiasco. 2.  Those who are more than willing to violate any standard or do virtually anything, based solely on a cold calculation of the potential benefit as opposed to the odds of getting caught and the expected punishment if they are.  These individuals exist in firms of all sizes, and they would be best removed from the profession.   3.  Those who are as honest and above board as the first group with regard to any work they personally do, but who will turn a blind eye towards actions of others in the firm even though they are actions that the individual him/herself would never do so long as it doesn’t appear such actions will have an impact on him/her personally. I don’t know for sure, but I expect that a large portion of the Houston office is made up of such people.  And, frankly, that many of those in upper management in Chicago that were watching Enron from afar were also of this persuasion. This third group is the one whose behavior you would have to hope the whole Enron situation will change.  That is, if they sit by and let the David Duncans of the world (who *will* exist in firms of all sizes) act without restrictions, there will be a personal negative impact on them.  

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I thought I’d branch off a bit on this one and propose what I see as what the "hoped for" change in behavior would be from the indictment of Andersen.  My own bias is that, to the extent the indictment (and other related issues coming from Enron) achieve this goal, they achieve a good. And to the extent they do not, they are arguably counterproductive. To oversimplify a bit, I see three classes of CPAs we have to deal with: 1.  Those who are totally honest, …

<<SNIP I fully believe there *are* these types at Andersen and that they will be unjustly punished by whatever negative results occur to Andersen due to the Enron fiasco. 2.  Those who are more than willing to violate any standard …

<<SNIP 3.  Those who … will turn a blind eye towards actions …

<<SNIP I don’t know for sure, but I expect that a large portion of the Houston office is made up of such people.  And, frankly, that many of those in upper management in Chicago that were watching Enron from afar were also of this persuasion.

I agree that most CPAs can be categorized in one of the above classes. (I started to say there could be a 4th group, CPAs who stray only rarely, but that would be group #2 members who attach either a high probability or a high negative payoff, or both, to being caught.)  You and I might disagree as to how many of Andersen’s Chicago and Houston partners belong in group #3 vs group #2. I have the firmly held opinion that those in group #3 who held positions of direct authority/responsibility also would be best removed from the profession. There comes a point when willingness to ignore the transgressions of others is, in fact, being an accessory to those transgressions. This third group is the one whose behavior you would have to hope the whole Enron situation will change.  That is, if they sit by and let the David Duncans of the world (who *will* exist in firms of all sizes) act without restrictions, there will be a personal negative impact on them.

I absolutely agree that changing the behavior of the 3rd group is the goal. (Bouncing group #2 out of the profession is another important goal.)  I also believe that another round of federal action that did not include an indictment of the firm would have failed to achieve this goal. In particular, anything short of an indictment of Andersen as a firm would likely have had almost no impact on the behavior of members of group #3 at other firms. Clearly, members of group #3 at Andersen didn’t change their behavior after Sunbeam, Waste Management or the Baptist Foundation; it’s doubtful that any of them would have changed this time if the Enron fiasco had not led to the firm being indicted. Thanks for starting this thread. Regards, Bill

Response:

True, and properly used it is a very useful tool.  This is why the enforcement organizations have put up such a howl about having it taken away.

… profiling is based on statistical analysis, imo. we all do it without even realising it everday.

….

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – profiling seems easy. You apparently don’t understand what "profiling" is. We haven’t gotten to that part yet. greetings to you bill. i understand that there are many types of profiling (car drivers, computer users, and of objects and processes). ending up in a class category would of course require the development of profiling criteria and secondly the application or the act of profiling, and finally classifiying the end results. the original poster i replied to created classifications and my two cents added a fouth. Then you do understand that profiling means assigning individuals to a class based on normally irrelevant characteristics. Putting a liar in the liar classification would not be profiling. Putting blue-eyed redheads in the liar class because a couple of them lied to you one time would be profiling. as far as profiling goes, imho, the characteristics are generally revelevant in the profilers mind. if they are based on false preconceptions they result in data that is false and misleading and irrevelant. but we all do it and it serves a basic purpose. getting off topic but this can probably be associated with audit sampling.

Correct, Joseph. And what proportion of audit time do we spend doing sampling, without which our conclusions lack a scientific base? In order to perpetrate even more creative accounting, soft fraudsters have pushed audit fees so low that many auditors (in particular Big 4 at publicly quoted entities) have reduced statistical sampling to nil. AFAIK "profiling" has recently become a buzz word due to uses and abuses by governments. E. g. last autumn German federal and state police corps profiled ("Rasterfahndung") "terrorists" as: a) practising Muslims b) no criminal history c) unobtrusive life style d) well educated and started, in true Gestapo style except for having a search warrant, raiding appartments and homes of people (potentially about 2 million) fulfilling the above profile before dawn. The German courts quickly put a stop to this declaring it unconstitutional. And rightly so. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Legion of Doom KGB sentiero luminoso Palestine Ft. Bragg Treasury Iran

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<<SNIP The governmental imposition of an audit requirement is wrong. The governmental protection of the industry excluding competition is wrong. Governmental support and maintenance of the veil of secrecy protecting corporations themselves from oversight by their own stakeholders is wrong.  GAAP is the definition of the

You do realize that if your first two wrongs are, in your definition righted, the third wrong you list will become exceedingly more wrong? If you don’t realize that then you understand nothing about human behavior. easy2000

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – profiling seems easy. You apparently don’t understand what "profiling" is. We haven’t gotten to that part yet. greetings to you bill. i understand that there are many types of profiling (car drivers, computer users, and of objects and processes). ending up in a class category would of course require the development of profiling criteria and secondly the application or the act of profiling, and finally classifiying the end results. the original poster i replied to created classifications and my two cents added a fouth.

Then you do understand that profiling means assigning individuals to a class based on normally irrelevant characteristics. Putting a liar in the liar classification would not be profiling. Putting blue-eyed redheads in the liar class because a couple of them lied to you one time would be profiling. Regards, Bill

Response:

"Active ignorance" is not exclusive to the Big Few.  I suspect we all use it from time to time.  I know I do.

I also think we all do it–it is a way to perceive yourself as being above board and always willing to do the right thing without having to actually risk having to make the hard decision.  I think anytime you run into one of these problems, there is an immediate thought of "I wish I didn’t know this" that crops into most people’s heads.  So it shouldn’t be surprising that we be motivated to attempt to avoid discovering such information–but likely not consciously realize that we were doing just that. That is, did we dismiss performing procedure A because it truly was "unnecessary" and "not cost beneficial" or was it because it might have uncovered a fact that would have made us uncomfortable?  Did we find the information given to us by a disgruntled former employee of the client unreliable because it was likely simply sour grapes, or because it would create real problems and issues if it did turn out to be true?  My guess is that parties involved will always sincerely *believe* the first premise, but when things fall apart the view of a dispassionate outsider is always going to lean toward the second motivation being the real one.

Response:

profiling seems easy.

You apparently don’t understand what "profiling" is. We haven’t gotten to that part yet. Regards, Bill

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Active ignorance" is not exclusive to the Big Few.  I suspect we all use it from time to time.  I know I do. I also think we all do it–it is a way to perceive yourself as being above board and always willing to do the right thing without having to actually risk having to make the hard decision.  I think anytime you run into one of these problems, there is an immediate thought of "I wish I didn’t know this" that crops into most people’s heads.  So it shouldn’t be surprising that we be motivated to attempt to avoid discovering such information–but likely not consciously realize that we were doing just that. That is, did we dismiss performing procedure A because it truly was "unnecessary" and "not cost beneficial" or was it because it might have uncovered a fact that would have made us uncomfortable?  Did we find the information given to us by a disgruntled former employee of the client unreliable because it was likely simply sour grapes, or because it would create real problems and issues if it did turn out to be true?  My guess is that parties involved will always sincerely *believe* the first premise, but when things fall apart the view of a dispassionate outsider is always going to lean toward the second motivation being the real one.

In my own case it has more to to with exhaustion and burnout than anything else.  In order to keep getting up in the morning I have to pass on a few.  At this point in my life I consciously ask the question,  "Is dealing with this situation worth what it is going to cost me", and quite often the answer is simply "No".  "Active ignorance" then becomes a defense mechanism. Someone asked earlier if "active ignorance" and "plausible deniability" are the same.  I would assert that they are not.  "Active ignorance" is a knowing effort to avoid dealing with something.  "Plausible deniability" is an effort to not only deal with something but to deal with it in such a way as to make it impossible for any outsider to trace responsibility back to the person who actually controlled the event. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

profiling seems easy. You apparently don’t understand what "profiling" is. We haven’t gotten to that part yet.

greetings to you bill. i understand that there are many types of profiling (car drivers, computer users, and of objects and processes). ending up in a class category would of course require the development of profiling criteria and secondly the application or the act of profiling, and finally classifiying the end results. the original poster i replied to created classifications and my two cents added a fouth. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regards, Bill

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 3.  Those who are as honest and above board as the first group with regard to any work they personally do, but who will turn a blind eye towards actions of others in the firm even though they are actions that the individual him/herself would never do so long as it doesn’t appear such actions will have an impact on him/her personally. profiling seems easy. why not add a catch-all category for the chamelons, enigmas, and the untested newbies. imho, most practitioners would fall in the third and fourth categories. This  is true enough in the world at large.  Why should it be any different with  accountants?

it should not be any different. i have all along disagreed with the promotional efforts of some orgs and repeated likewise by individuals that (something like) ‘cpas are the most trusted professionals when compared to doctors and lawyers – as preceived by the public’. one could say the key word is *preceived*. why in the world would any profession embark on an advertising campaign with such rubbish, not to mention truth in advertising claims. cpas would. and the reason why is to capitalize on those *preceptions* for economic gain. the public therefore expects delivery of the goods for wish they paid. While judgment is essential to survival, we do need to use care and maintain some humility.  At the end of the day we are all sinners.

the latter is true without exception and all else stated is certainly good advice in most if not all situations. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought I’d branch off a bit on this one and propose what I see as what the "hoped for" change in behavior would be from the indictment of Andersen.  My own bias is that, to the extent the indictment (and other related issues coming from Enron) achieve this goal, they achieve a good. And to the extent they do not, they are arguably counterproductive. To oversimplify a bit, I see three classes of CPAs we have to deal with: 1.  Those who are totally honest, above board, and who will also not tolerate actions by any person in the organization they are working for that violates professional standards.  To tie it to Enron–had they seen the shredding taking place or had they become aware of accounting issues that Duncan was "papering over" against the recommendations of the PSG, they would have kept pushing complaints up the line until either someone at the organization took action *OR* they decided they couldn’t work for the organization any longer. I fully believe there *are* these types at Andersen and that they will be unjustly punished by whatever negative results occur to Andersen due to the Enron fiasco. 2.  Those who are more than willing to violate any standard or do virtually anything, based solely on a cold calculation of the potential benefit as opposed to the odds of getting caught and the expected punishment if they are.  These individuals exist in firms of all sizes, and they would be best removed from the profession. 3.  Those who are as honest and above board as the first group with regard to any work they personally do, but who will turn a blind eye towards actions of others in the firm even though they are actions that the individual him/herself would never do so long as it doesn’t appear such actions will have an impact on him/her personally.

profiling seems easy. why not add a catch-all category for the chamelons, enigmas, and the untested newbies. imho, most practitioners would fall in the third and fourth categories. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know for sure, but I expect that a large portion of the Houston office is made up of such people.  And, frankly, that many of those in upper management in Chicago that were watching Enron from afar were also of this persuasion. This third group is the one whose behavior you would have to hope the whole Enron situation will change.  That is, if they sit by and let the David Duncans of the world (who *will* exist in firms of all sizes) act without restrictions, there will be a personal negative impact on them.

Response:

3.  Those who are as honest and above board as the first group with regard to any work they personally do, but who will turn a blind eye towards actions of others in the firm even though they are actions that the individual him/herself would never do so long as it doesn’t appear such actions will have an impact on him/her personally. profiling seems easy. why not add a catch-all category for the chamelons, enigmas, and the untested newbies. imho, most practitioners would fall in the third and fourth categories.

This  is true enough in the world at large.  Why should it be any different with  accountants? While judgment is essential to survival, we do need to use care and maintain some humility.  At the end of the day we are all sinners. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

There comes a point when willingness to ignore the transgressions of others is, in fact, being an accessory to those transgressions.

Actually, since most people recognize that, what often becomes the coping behavior is what I would call "active ignorance"–that is, attempting to insure you won’t become aware of any problem.  You hear it quite a bit in discussing this case–that partners and staff who didn’t know about the case should be exempt from harm. I can accept an argument of sorts for those who reasonably *couldn’t* have known (and I’m willing to accept that a mid-market senior in Greensboro, NC couldn’t have known about the activities in any of the cited cases).  But, for the reason noted above, I think we have to resist any attempt to make ignorance, in and of itself, a complete defense.  Because what that teaches people is to practice "don’t ask–don’t tell" with regard to the actions of anyone in the firm. I think that, if analyzed, we’ll find that many in Chicago practiced "active ignorance"–that is they didn’t really want to know what was going on with regard to Enron because they were afraid of what they might have to do if they did know about it.  So that type of denial allowed them to send Duncan back to Houston still running the Enron engagement, despite warning flags that Duncan was willing to cut *lots* of corners (after all, wasn’t that really what the meeting was all about?).

Response:

There comes a point when willingness to ignore the transgressions of others is, in fact, being an accessory to those transgressions. Actually, since most people recognize that, what often becomes the coping behavior is what I would call "active ignorance"–that is, attempting to insure you won’t become aware of any problem.  You hear it quite a bit in discussing this case–that partners and staff who didn’t know about the case should be exempt from harm.

"Active ignorance" is not exclusive to the Big Few.  I suspect we all use it from time to time.  I know I do. In fact, in roughly thirty years of accounting I have had one client that I thought was absolutely incorruptible.  Then he got audited by an obscure agency over some trivial item, and I discovered where he had been cutting corners. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

There comes a point when willingness to ignore the transgressions of others is, in fact, being an accessory to those transgressions. Actually, since most people recognize that, what often becomes the coping behavior is what I would call "active ignorance"–that is, attempting to insure you won’t become aware of any problem.  You hear it quite a bit in discussing this case–that partners and staff who didn’t know about the case should be exempt from harm.

_Consciously_ attempting to avoid learning details that might make the "actively ignorant" no longer ignorant, right? Is this anything like "plausible deniability"? I can accept an argument of sorts for those who reasonably *couldn’t* have known (and I’m willing to accept that a mid-market senior in Greensboro, NC couldn’t have known about the activities in any of the cited cases).  But,

But, after several audit failures in a row, even someone in that locale should, in my opinion, have serious doubts/questions about what was going on at higher levels in the firm. (Not that I’m saying such a person should have been raising a lot of dust. Rather, becoming more alert and more skeptical.) for the reason noted above, I think we have to resist any attempt to make ignorance, in and of itself, a complete defense.  Because what that teaches people is to practice "don’t ask–don’t tell" with regard to the actions of anyone in the firm.

I agree that ignorance is NOT an absolute defense, particularly for those who had a responsibility to be not ignorant. I think the phrase, "knew or should have known" is quite applicable here. I think that, if analyzed, we’ll find that many in Chicago practiced "active ignorance"–that is they didn’t really want to know what was going

I fear too many partners throughout Andersen (and other firms as well) have been practicing "active ignorance." Worse, they’ve been teaching the people below themselves to practice it, too. on with regard to Enron because they were afraid of what they might have to do if they did know about it.  So that type of denial allowed them to send Duncan back to Houston still running the Enron engagement, despite warning flags that Duncan was willing to cut *lots* of corners (after all, wasn’t that really what the meeting was all about?).

It takes a tough attitude as well as a belief of being correct to overcome what seems to be a natural human trait – the desire to avoid confrontation. Overcoming that avoidance behavior is something I myself have been working on in recent years. Regards, Bill

Response:

To oversimplify a bit, I see three classes of CPAs we have to deal with: 1.  Those who are totally honest, above board, and who will not tolerate [...] 2.  Those who are more than willing to violate any standard or do virtually anything, based solely on a cold calculation of the potential benefit [...] 3.  Those who are as honest and above board as the first group with regard to any work they personally do, but who will turn a blind eye towards actions of others [...] so long as it doesn’t appear such actions will have an impact on him/her personally.

There you go again, trying to "fix the culture". No matter what you or anybody else says, there will always be a powerful and continuous moral hazard in auditing.  Anytime you have one class of people having the power to eat from the granary of other people’s production, eating will happen. The American people don’t *want* to have to trust CPAs, and they don’t *need* to trust CPAs.  Rather, CPAs and regulators impose this layer of bureaucracy without giving investors any choice in the matter. The governmental imposition of an audit requirement is wrong. The governmental protection of the industry excluding competition is wrong. Governmental support and maintenance of the veil of secrecy protecting corporations themselves from oversight by their own stakeholders is wrong.  GAAP is the definition of the minimum required disclosure.  That is, the maximum toleraable lying and omission.  IN an age when every transaction of the company is indexed and available for inspection all these structures and the lying they permit, are obsolete. Lets get back to basics, why there are financial statements and auditors in the first place: because 70years ago there was not even the barest agreement of */any* enforceable meaning of the textual descriptions of transactions.   The posture of today’s CPA is nothing but that of an exploiter, exploiting laws created of necessity 70 years ago only to enrich themselves, while contributing NOTHING to the fundamental goal of transparency and governance of corporations, Those who may agree, might sign this petition.  I don’t expect many of you on this list, have the insight to see the corruption in your own hearts.  Comfortable within your belief system of decades, indoctrinated by university courses and countless annual hours of CPE, reassured by your fellow accountants you believe the world really needs your fatherly and patronizing role.  You really believe markets are made more efficient and the savings of the old are safeguarded by your activities recharacterizing and re-labeling of the facts of exchanges conducted between the peasant class.  Whether they like it or not, and to prison with those who disobey. http://www.petitiononline.com/FinDereg/petition.html Todd Todd Boyle CPA  9745-128th Ave NE  Kirkland WA International Accounting Services, LLC  www.gldialtone.com 425-827-3107  AR/AP everywhere  www.arapxml.net

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It takes a tough attitude as well as a belief of being correct to overcome what seems to be a natural human trait – the desire to avoid confrontation. Overcoming that avoidance behavior is something I myself have been working on in recent years. Regards, Bill

I never had that problem during my tenure EY.  As a result you can imagine I was not too successful!  Haww!   They kept me in my cubicle, worked me 18 hours a day and threw meat over the wall to feeed me.  Some of the other guys worked even more hours.  ONe guy sat so many hours at his chair, over the years, his pecker shriveled up and fell off, I think its a common malady, I hated the neckties more, they cut off your circulation. I only wore mine in the office.  As soon as I got out the door I loosened it and slipped it over my head so i wouldnt have to tie it again in the morning. After many years of this, and only having four or five neckties they got really appallingly greasy around the knot, and they actually, somehow got infested with fleas on the subway. http://www.gldialtone.com/tokyomemes.htm D*mned things all got infected since they were all in my desk drawer.  I put them all in a bag and cooked em in the office microwave, man thos things were sizzlin, they was talkin’ to me, man.   I never had anymore problem with the fleas, When I quit I don’t know who was more relieved, me or EY, I wish I woulda been in David Duncan’s office.  I would have enjoyed tearing his games apart, just for the sadistic pleasure.  Probably I would have ended up dead, like that guy they shot in Houston, http://www.google.com/search?q=enron+suicide+murder Todd

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-snip- Those who may agree, might sign this petition.  I don’t expect many of you on this list, have the insight to see the corruption in your own hearts.  Comfortable within your belief system of decades, indoctrinated by university courses and countless annual hours of CPE, reassured by your fellow accountants you believe the world really needs your fatherly and patronizing role.

If one truly believes that what he is doing is right, there is no corruption.  The right or wrong of the belief itself is irrelevant.  Only when one no longer truly believes his convictions does the seed of corruption get sown. You really believe markets are made more efficient and the savings of the old are safeguarded by your activities recharacterizing and re-labeling of the facts of exchanges conducted between the peasant class.  Whether they like it or not, and to prison with those who disobey.

So, let me get this straight.  The purpose of the petition is to make financial reporting completely transparent, to "level the playing field" so to speak, for all users of financial data.  I think that is the message I am getting from it, yet Section A Paragraph 4 of the petitions says that the amount of transparency should be proportionate to the level of ownership of the company.  How is that equalizing anything? — Todd Stephens

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Ansett administrators investigated and confirmed there was no basis to any of these rumours. Any chance of a reference to that "confirmation", Neil? I distinctly recall seeing the two Marks make that statement during a press conferece Ted….no doubt it was quoted in some media, but I don’t have a link to a particular article. There was a great deal of emotional speculation at the time, understandably I guess. There will be some form of administrators report come out i imagine….when is anybody’s guess. Neil

Ted…..further to that, the press conference I recalled was after an initial investigation so it was relatively early in the piece. Apparantly towards the latter stages the administrators did threaten legal action over asset- stripping, so their view changed, or they used it as leverage to get that $195M? in return for no law suits.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes you should blame Air New Zealand for the fuck up.  They took Millions for Ansett dollars to keep their own airline in the air because they could barely run it themselves.  In one day Air New Zealand where rumoured to have taken $$15 million out of an Ansett Account to help themselves. Nothing but scamming bastards. It was rumoured that NZ aircraft at YMML & YSSY were billing fuel charges to AN. Also heard that spares (including engines) were being transferred from the YMML jet base to NZ. All of this without the proper accounting entries – therefore, as good as theft. Any basis to these rumours ? Andrew. The Ansett administrators investigated and confirmed there was no basis to any of these rumours.

When you say Ansett administrators, I assume you mean ANZ.

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The Ansett administrators investigated and confirmed there was no basis to any of these rumours. Any chance of a reference to that "confirmation", Neil?

I distinctly recall seeing the two Marks make that statement during a press conferece Ted….no doubt it was quoted in some media, but I don’t have a link to a particular article. There was a great deal of emotional speculation at the time, understandably I guess. There will be some form of administrators report come out i imagine….when is anybody’s guess. Neil

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The Ansett administrators investigated and confirmed there was no basis to any of these rumours. Yeah, and those two crooks are about as straight as the Pacific Highway.

Yep….their 15 minutes of fame are well and truly over, but I believe it was in their best interests to find out if such rumours were true…actually more than that….they are obliged to investigate to maximise creditors returns…..supposedly at least.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes you should blame Air New Zealand for the fuck up.  They took Millions for Ansett dollars to keep their own airline in the air because they could barely run it themselves.  In one day Air New Zealand where rumoured to have taken $$15 million out of an Ansett Account to help themselves. Nothing but scamming bastards. It was rumoured that NZ aircraft at YMML & YSSY were billing fuel charges to AN. Also heard that spares (including engines) were being transferred from the YMML jet base to NZ. All of this without the proper accounting entries – therefore, as good as theft. Any basis to these rumours ? Andrew. The Ansett administrators investigated and confirmed there was no basis to any of these rumours. When you say Ansett administrators, I assume you mean ANZ.

They are nominated by ANZ and approved by the federal court I think, but thats the end of the relationship….the role is understandably independent from that point on. In this case of course, their was a different administrator announced by ANZ, only to be removed after union pressure. That should tell you something about the 2 Mark’s and the way things went after that……

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It was rumoured that NZ aircraft at YMML & YSSY were billing fuel charges to AN. Also heard that spares (including engines) were being transferred from the YMML jet base to NZ. All of this without the proper accounting entries – therefore, as good as theft. Any basis to these rumours ? Andrew. The Ansett administrators investigated and confirmed there was no basis to any of these rumours.

Thanks for the info Neil. I have been working overseas where it is often difficult to discern fact from fiction. Regards, Andrew.

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The Ansett administrators investigated and confirmed there was no basis to any of these rumours.

Any chance of a reference to that "confirmation", Neil?

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This is not from the administrator, but just for interest:

http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:E9U9OGT95ioC:www.travelscene.com… 22new+zealand%22&hl=en Thanks, Craig. Reads like a "Not guilty" plea from a third party …. which is what it is, I guess.

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I flew with them once in the past 10 years, and the bastards lost my luggage.  Only time I’ve ever experienced that.  Hey! I resemble that remark. Bastards did that to me too.

All the way from SYD to MEL – J class, too. You reckon they had sly access to the QFF database, and automagically sent all luggage belonging to active QFF members to china?

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The Ansett administrators investigated and confirmed there was no basis to any of these rumours.

Yeah, and those two crooks are about as straight as the Pacific Highway.

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I flew with them once in the past 10 years, and the bastards lost my luggage.  Only time I’ve ever experienced that. Obviously knew you were a union basher  :-)

That was actually before I became a committed union basher, so you could blame the Ansett union goons for that, too.    ;-)

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It was rumoured that NZ aircraft at YMML & YSSY were billing fuel charges to AN. Also heard that spares (including engines) were being transferred from the YMML jet base to NZ. All of this without

the proper accounting entries – therefore, as good as theft. Any basis to these rumours ? Not the first time those rumours have been aired here. There were stories of green and blue 767s and 747s heading east with engines and spares in their holds in the weeks before it all came really unstuck but, all unsubstantiated.

Anything like this on the maintenance side of things would be murky at best. Given that both individual engineering divisions had been for some time merged into one entity (ANNZES) and it was a 50/50 thing, it’s possible that parts/spares/equipment on the NZ side of the ledger were being returned to CHC. Both ran good numbers of 767s and 737s so parts from each would be all over the place more than likely. Think there’s more to the billing of fuel and catering for NZ craft in Oz to AN that’s ever come out, than there’s anything to the kidnapping of spares/parts. Cheers. Al.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes you should blame Air New Zealand for the fuck up.  They took Millions for Ansett dollars to keep their own airline in the air because they could barely run it themselves.  In one day Air New Zealand where rumoured to have taken $$15 million out of an Ansett Account to help themselves.  Nothing but scamming bastards. It was rumoured that NZ aircraft at YMML & YSSY were billing fuel charges to AN. Also heard that spares (including engines) were being transferred from the YMML jet base to NZ. All of this without the proper accounting entries – therefore, as good as theft. Any basis to these rumours ? Andrew.

The Ansett administrators investigated and confirmed there was no basis to any of these rumours.

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A long line of people are to blame News Corp:    using the airline as a cash cow and not recapitalising AirNZ:            not perfoming due diligence when they vetowed the                        News Corp sale to SIA to take 100% ownership of                        Ansett leaving the Ansett-AirNZ group with no money                        to roll-over the Ansett Fleet AirNZ:            sacking all the Ansett managers with experience in a                        large airline and installing AirNZ management with little                        or no experience outside NZ. CASA:            allowing critical maintenance checks to be missed.                        (They are after all the regulatory authorities and auditors                        of the aviation industry. Ansett was the party that notified CASA) Aus Gov:        Backdoor manouvering Qantas as a spoiler to the SIA bail-out NZ Gov:        not monitoring the financial practices of it one and only carrier Osama Bin Laden:    reducing consumer confidence in aviation market. Chris

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to start anything new but I still can not understand how an airline like Ansett could go bust. When all you read is how good Ansett was in regards to service and it’s reputation around the world!  I still blame the Government and ANZ. (Should I?)

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I don’t want to start anything new but I still can not understand how an airline like Ansett could go bust.

Ask the union goons who fouled their own nests. $20,000,000+ to stick an engineer’s station on the flightdeck of an aircraft that was designed to operate without an engineer. "Rolling sickies", whereby anyone called in to replace a sick worker got double time, so an unofficial shift evolved to maximise the benefits for all. You be the judge. When all you read is how good Ansett was in regards to service and it’s reputation around the world!

I flew with them once in the past 10 years, and the bastards lost my luggage.  Only time I’ve ever experienced that. I still blame the Government and ANZ.  (Should I?)

ANZ must shoulder some of the "blame", but the Government (both the current clowns, and the more clueless clowns who preceeded them) are essentially blameless.

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You may only blame the management and owners of Ansett.

Bollocks. Rod Speed will try to blame the union bludgers as well.

He’d be right.

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I flew with them once in the past 10 years, and the bastards lost my luggage.  Only time I’ve ever experienced that.

Obviously knew you were a union basher  :-) Alan

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Yes you should blame Air New Zealand for the fuck up.  They took Millions for Ansett dollars to keep their own airline in the air because they could barely run it themselves.  In one day Air New Zealand where rumoured to have taken $$15 million out of an Ansett Account to help themselves.  Nothing but scamming bastards.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to start anything new but I still can not understand how an airline like Ansett could go bust. When all you read is how good Ansett was in regards to service and it’s reputation around the world!  I still blame the Government and ANZ. (Should I?)

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Yes you should blame Air New Zealand for the fuck up.  They took Millions for Ansett dollars to keep their own airline in the air because they could barely run it themselves.  In one day Air New Zealand where rumoured to have taken $$15 million out of an Ansett Account to help themselves.  Nothing but scamming bastards.

It was rumoured that NZ aircraft at YMML & YSSY were billing fuel charges to AN. Also heard that spares (including engines) were being transferred from the YMML jet base to NZ. All of this without the proper accounting entries – therefore, as good as theft. Any basis to these rumours ? Andrew.

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I don’t want to start anything new but I still can not understand how an airline like Ansett could go bust. When all you read is how good Ansett was in regards to service and it’s reputation around the world!  I still blame the Government and ANZ.  (Should I?)

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You may only blame the management and owners of Ansett. Rod Speed will try to blame the union bludgers as well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to start anything new but I still can not understand how an airline like Ansett could go bust. When all you read is how good Ansett was in regards to service and it’s reputation around the world!  I still blame the Government and ANZ.  (Should I?)

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Personally I get the impression that it was the fault of the NZ Government (Helen Clarke, in particular). The New Zealand govenment were quite stubborn, and they really should’ve offloaded Ansett to SIA when they had the chance. Regards, Jason Backshall

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t want to start anything new but I still can not understand how an airline like Ansett could go bust. When all you read is how good Ansett was in regards to service and it’s reputation around the world!  I still blame the Government and ANZ. (Should I?)

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I don’t want to start anything new but I still can not understand how an airline like Ansett could go bust. When all you read is how good Ansett was in regards to service and it’s reputation around the world!  I still blame the Government and ANZ.  (Should I?)

Gross mismanagement caused the airline to collapse Financial mismanagement in particular, but they also took a big PR hit from the 767 & maintenence incidents…  if that wiped only 10% off their bookings, it’d be enough to sink most airlines without *very* active & responsive management. Blame: Government: No. Air NZ: Probably, as owners of Ansett. NZ Govt: Probably, as regulators of AirNZ.

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Personally I get the impression that it was the fault of the NZ Government (Helen Clarke, in particular). The New Zealand govenment were quite stubborn, and they really should’ve offloaded Ansett to SIA when they had the chance.

At risk of starting a long thread, it goes back further.  ANZ’s first mistake was buying 50% with an option on the rest, without doing their sums.  Brierley sucked them into that. Their next big mistake was to buy the second half six or so months later, again without doing their sums. As with most aviation disasters, the result is the outcome of a series of small (?) errors which compound.

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Does anyone know if  Ansett will be part of Star Alliance after the Fox-Lew takeover ? Pierre

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Does anyone know if  Ansett will be part of Star Alliance after the Fox-Lew takeover ? Pierre

    I’d heard that that is a long term goal – apart from that I know little about it… Regards, BB

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We find bugs in this software quite often, mostly minor, but sometimes more interesting. But, if the FMCs both die, your fancy electric jet has basically just converted itself to 747 classic level capabilities. Not really a big deal.

John …. Some questions regarding the 747-400. How many FMCs exist in total?  Wouldn’t there be backups to the two main computers? If they all fail …. you mentioned the jet just behaves like a classic.  Do the FMCs control fuel management? There were many stories (rumours) regarding stubborn fuel management with malfunctioning computers in b747-400 early days. TIA — Jock

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I happen to know from somewhere I read or someone told me that Boeing’s FMC’s and other gear, specially on the 777 and 747-400’s have dedicated hardware and software something upwards of 100,000 lines of code that goes through rigorous software engineering validation cycles blah blah blah.

The FMCs are dedicated computer systems, using (in the -400) Motorola chips. I think the FMCs are one of the options in a jet. You get to choose the brand and capabilities of the unit, based on your needs. The ones that I have used are all Honeywell. Again, I could be wrong, as there is no ‘branding’ on the display units. We find bugs in this software quite often, mostly minor, but sometimes more interesting. But, if the FMCs both die, your fancy electric jet has basically just converted itself to 747 classic level capabilities. Not really a big deal. I don’t think any of the Boeing systems have gone belly up, though I do know that a friend of mine was on a 777 at Washington, Dulles and there was a delay while the captain "rebooted" the aircraft for some unknown reason.

The 777 (and Airbus 320, 330 and 340) are quite a different case. They are ‘fly by wire’. The computer(s) fly the a/c, and the pilot has no direct control of the aircraft. Problems in this sort of machinery could be more serious. Whilst I haven’t heard of any 777 glitches yet, the A320 and 340 seem to have had quite a few bugs. Stories that come to mind are the 340 that took it upon itself to start dumping fuel, the 320 that effectively was looped near Moscow, and (so the story goes), the Ansett 320 that didn’t want to land. Of course, these stories may be apocryphal. You know, the same thing you do when your Win95 session hangs. aw hell! I better go reboot it. It’s kind of a little more worrying on a 777 about to take off, but none have had any severe problems of this type so it could well have been a joke misintrepreted..

About to take off is fine. It’s when they play up airborne….. John Bartels

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Well yes the concept of a MAC running a FMS scares the willies out of me too.   I happen to know from somewhere I read or someone told me that Boeing’s FMC’s and other gear, specially on the 777 and 747-400’s have dedicated hardware and software something upwards of 100,000 lines of code that goes through rigorous software engineering validation cycles blah blah blah. I don’t think any of the Boeing systems have gone belly up, though I do know that a friend of mine was on a 777 at Washington, Dulles and there was a delay while the captain "rebooted" the aircraft for some unknown reason. You know, the same thing you do when your Win95 session hangs. aw hell! I better go reboot it. It’s kind of a little more worrying on a 777 about to take off, but none have had any severe problems of this type so it could well have been a joke misintrepreted.. -richard — Richard Muirden                                  All opinions are my OWN, etc UNIX & SAP R/3 Systems Administrator             NOTE: I do NOT work for RMIT! "If kisses could kill, that one would have flattened several small towns."                                                  - Vir, Babylon 5.

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Best would be the old 386/486 thown in the corner, headless, but running Linux.  Goes all day, never complains, never falters and needs minimal resource.  After all Linux went to Mars, but did MS?

 This is not the time or place for the My-OS-is-better-than-your-OS religous wars, but that worries the hell out of me – aviation types with all the safety, realiability and accountability drummed into us from day one should know a *lot* better.  If Boeing/Airbus/Cessna/Piper/et-al designed assembled and built aircraft the way the linux ‘team’ (and I use the word in it’s broadest possible interpretation), flying would cost 20% of what it does now, fatalities from flying would equate to road-accident fatalities in number, and only the brave and daring would fly. Flying would be listed in life insurance policies in the same category as Sky and SCUBA diving and bunjee jumping.  The world would be a *much* larger place. Geoff, who uses FreeBSD in commercial applications for the same reason I        am comfortable flying. Safety. Reliability. Accountability.        Direction in design. Standards compliance.

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Funny you should mention that. A friend recently recounted a visit to an RNZAF open day, and a lookg over an old-ish C-130 (Herc) (not sure which version, but old enough to have a ticker to keep the mechanical instruments from sticking).

RNZAF Hercules are C130H models.  They got some of the first aircraft from Lockheed’s "H" model production line …. so they are some of the oldest H models around. Cheers — Jock

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You realise there’s a whole new thread here about the power equivalent of on board computers – is it 386 or 486?

 Funny you should mention that. A friend recently recounted a visit to an RNZAF open day, and a lookg over an old-ish C-130 (Herc) (not sure which version, but old enough to have a ticker to keep the mechanical instruments from sticking).  Apparently this Herky-bird had a common-or-garden pentium based desktop computer bolted into one end of the instrument console (is there room). In response to my friend’s surprise, the pilot doing the guided tours said ‘Yes, and that one PC is faster than all the other NAV stuff, etc we have in here…. and, if you’re on a long boring flight, you can play testris on it"… Geoff, who’s never got anywhere near a C-130, but wishes… Anyone got        a nice new ‘J’ they wanna show me over?

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It could be worse, there could be an "Intel Inside" warning label next to the doors for everyone to see as they board. That would probably give everyone second thoughts Or even "Designed for Windows 95".  Now that is scary. Howard. You realise there’s a whole new thread here about the power equivalent of on board computers – is it 386 or 486? I’d feel a lot safer with a G3 upfront with MacOS8 – at least the CDU would look pretty – might even be fewer crashes!

Best would be the old 386/486 thown in the corner, headless, but running Linux.  Goes all day, never complains, never falters and needs minimal resource.  After all Linux went to Mars, but did MS? Howard. These are my opinions.  Today’s price, to you, is AUS$0.02      | PGPkeycheck 09A25BEA 8D3B2793 519E3DD2 72782532              /  |     VH-MDL A Grumman Yankee is a F14 Tomcat on Jenny Craig             O   O   O

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Hi Les, It could be worse, there could be an "Intel Inside" warning label next to the doors for everyone to see as they board. That would probably give everyone second thoughts Trevor Fenn

Yes, we could all be boarding "Snail Airlines" with the FA’s dressed in Intel Bunny costumes! Best Les

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It could be worse, there could be an "Intel Inside" warning label next to the doors for everyone to see as they board. That would probably give everyone second thoughts Or even "Designed for Windows 95".  Now that is scary. Howard.

You realise there’s a whole new thread here about the power equivalent of on board computers – is it 386 or 486? I’d feel a lot safer with a G3 upfront with MacOS8 – at least the CDU would look pretty – might even be fewer crashes! best Les

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It could be worse, there could be an "Intel Inside" warning label next to the doors for everyone to see as they board. That would probably give everyone second thoughts

Or even "Designed for Windows 95".  Now that is scary. Howard.

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It could be worse, there could be an "Intel Inside" warning label next to the doors for everyone to see as they board. That would probably give everyone second thoughts Or even "Designed for Windows 95".  Now that is scary. Howard.

Even in my wildest nightmares I hadn’t considered that. I’m breaking out in a cold sweat at the thought. I can just picture it now, a cold dark stormy night…… shooting an ILS with one engine out and the other in flames….. when all at once……. AAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Trevor Fenn

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well some might argue that the pilot of an A320 is never in control of the aircraft, he just makes requests of the computer, but I’m being picky here Now Trevor, Would you REALLY like me to pass on that kind of information to fearful flyers? As it is, we show them an rather ancient video from BA of two 747-200s in service, and how the servos control the "moving surfaces" as the video calls them. When they see the rather thin looking wire cables, they need a little reassurance – but the rest of the safety-oriented video is quite impressive AND reassuring. Thanks for the interest. Les

Hi Les, It could be worse, there could be an "Intel Inside" warning label next to the doors for everyone to see as they board. That would probably give everyone second thoughts Trevor Fenn

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Well some might argue that the pilot of an A320 is never in control of the aircraft, he just makes requests of the computer, but I’m being picky here

Now Trevor, Would you REALLY like me to pass on that kind of information to fearful flyers? As it is, we show them an rather ancient video from BA of two 747-200s in service, and how the servos control the "moving surfaces" as the video calls them. When they see the rather thin looking wire cables, they need a little reassurance – but the rest of the safety-oriented video is quite impressive AND reassuring. Thanks for the interest. Les Les Posen/MEL                               Secretary Compuserve: 100033,271                  (Victorian Branch) Snail-mail: P.O. Box 408 Elsternwick           INTERPSYCH Member since June 1994 AUSTRALIA, 3185            Co-ordinator: psy-media

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To tell you the truth that was the worst covered incident I have ever seen. It was only on Channel Ten, probably because the other tv stations realised it was nothing significant and aircraft take off every day with improvised parts, (I was once in the jumpseat on a flight where the fuel cap had gone missing and they were about to use a piece of aviation grade paper – Designed for the purpose. Aircraft do this every day as there is a book that comes with the aircraft stating what improvised parts have been tested and still meet certification with these parts.) Your first paragraph is pretty much correct re media coverage. I used various daily newspaper reports to show a group of fearful flyers how the media reports commercial airline incidents. They got the message VERY clearly when I showed the various reports side by side on the overhead projector. ALL concluded that the pressure valve problem CAUSED the plane to "dive" or "plunge" 22,000ft. They were quite surprised to learn that the flight crew contacted ATC to descend rapidly to 8000ft, and the flight was under pilot control at all times.

Well some might argue that the pilot of an A320 is never in control of the aircraft, he just makes requests of the computer, but I’m being picky here Trevor Fenn

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To tell you the truth that was the worst covered incident I have ever seen. It was only on Channel Ten, probably because the other tv stations realised it was nothing significant and aircraft take off every day with improvised parts, (I was once in the jumpseat on a flight where the fuel cap had gone missing and they were about to use a piece of aviation grade paper – Designed for the purpose. Aircraft do this every day as there is a book that comes with the aircraft stating what improvised parts have been tested and still meet certification with these parts.) From what I could gather VH-HYL was flying from Hobart to Sydney when it was diverted to Melbourne due to a faulty valve causing depressurisation

Definitely VH-HYB painted with the Sydney 2000 logo on a Hobart to Melbourne flight: AN28 (it was never going to Sydney). Cheers, Craig Graham.

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Does anybody know the rego of the A320 involved?? Damian

VH-HYB   painted with the Sydney 2000 logo all over the rear section of the fuselage.  Flight AN28 HBA-MEL Cheers, Craig Graham

Response:

Hello "the While discussing "Ansett" "the Ragg Family" said…  "RF Also the system you are talking about on the Air NZ flight is just and  "RF add on that is part of the video system. It is pre-programmed by the  "RF airline and displays a map with the six most interesting points in  "RF range according to the database. It does have the ability to display  "RF airsped height etc in metric as well imperial (?sorry i was born after  "RF metric was introduced units. I thought that it might be a programed thing, given that when we had 5 mins to reach LAX, we were still a half an hour out (flying over some islands off the coast of LA). As for the speed/altitude reading I prefer an imperial measurement. Although I grew up with imperial, and during school converted to metric, I still have problems figuring out metric heights. A person who is 182 cm tall means nothing to me. If however, you say that he is 5′ 11" tall, then I can relate to it. Same for flying altitudes. Cheers Martin -=- Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 Gippsland, Victoria, Australia http://www.gips.com.au/~mtaylor ICQ# 7571374

Response:

To tell you the truth that was the worst covered incident I have ever seen. It was only on Channel Ten, probably because the other tv stations realised it was nothing significant and aircraft take off every day with improvised parts, (I was once in the jumpseat on a flight where the fuel cap had gone missing and they were about to use a piece of aviation grade paper – Designed for the purpose. Aircraft do this every day as there is a book that comes with the aircraft stating what improvised parts have been tested and still meet certification with these parts.)

Your first paragraph is pretty much correct re media coverage. I used various daily newspaper reports to show a group of fearful flyers how the media reports commercial airline incidents. They got the message VERY clearly when I showed the various reports side by side on the overhead projector. ALL concluded that the pressure valve problem CAUSED the plane to "dive" or "plunge" 22,000ft. They were quite surprised to learn that the flight crew contacted ATC to descend rapidly to 8000ft, and the flight was under pilot control at all times. From what I could gather VH-HYL was flying from Hobart to Sydney when it was diverted to Melbourne due to a faulty valve causing depressurisation problems, the technical/flight crew immediately descended to 8,000ft, which is the company and/or the legal requirements and continued the flight as normal. Part of the Airbus and most other aircraft’s features is to automatically release the oxygen masks, to prevent hypoxia (lack of oxygen) until the aircraft is at a safe height. The aircraft made a normal landing, and there was no risk of the aircraft crashing as one of the journalists claimed. They then interview an older couple and a guy probably in his twenties.

Not quite true as others have reported. The same night I led the fearful flying group we boarded another A320 for a "tow" to maintenance and can confirm it was Olympic -HYB. The engineers on board our "flight" knew the fuller, accurate story and explained a portion to myself and the some group members. It would not be appropriate for me to release "unofficial" reports in this NG, but suffice to say normal protocols were put in place for a very rare event (it was not immediately obvious as to the cause of the depressurisation situation at the time, apparently) and the crew and pax were never in any danger. Those interviewed in the media included an 8 year old girl off to BNE to meet Aggro as part of a Make a Wish endowment (the media felt it necessary to report she suffered Hodgkins Lymphoma to add some human interest element to the story). They also added more colour by quoting a SYD based pharmacist and his family who were returning from Tassie as part of their recuperation from having lost a relative in the Maccabi Games bridge collapse in Israel last year. The media also reported that several minutes passed before pax were informed of the procedures that had taken place. No doubt such a steep descent, causing ear problems for many ("18 perforated eardrums" were reported by one journalist – hardly credible), was very unnerving, and I wonder how I would have handled it myself…that was a question put to me by an anxious but very frequent flyer group member. So while the media royally screwed up as usual when reporting aviation stories, I was able to turn it to the fearful group’s advantage by allowing them to see how the media can fuel their own erroneous beliefs. We fly as a group to SYD next Saturday so wish us all luck! Les Posen Clinical Psychologist

Response:

To tell you the truth that was the worst covered incident I have ever seen. It was only on Channel Ten, probably because the other tv stations realised it was nothing significant and aircraft take off every day with improvised parts, (I was once in the jumpseat on a flight where the fuel cap had gone missing and they were about to use a piece of aviation grade paper – Designed for the purpose. Aircraft do this every day as there is a book that comes with the aircraft stating what improvised parts have been tested and still meet certification with these parts.) From what I could gather VH-HYL was flying from Hobart to Sydney when it was diverted to Melbourne due to a faulty valve causing depressurisation problems, the technical/flight crew immediately descended to 8,000ft, which is the company and/or the legal requirements and continued the flight as normal. Part of the Airbus and most other aircraft’s features is to automatically release the oxygen masks, to prevent hypoxia (lack of oxygen) until the aircraft is at a safe height. The aircraft made a normal landing, and there was no risk of the aircraft crashing as one of the journalists claimed. They then interview an older couple and a guy probably in his twenties. The passengers claimed their ears hurt a bit from decending quickly, which is normal but not as bad as the journalist described it – I believe about the same as coming up from ten metres of water in three and a half minutes. Also the system you are talking about on the Air NZ flight is just and add on that is part of the video system. It is pre-programmed by the airline and displays a map with the six most interesting points in range according to the database. It does have the ability to display airsped height etc in metric as well imperial (?sorry i was born after metric was introduced units. If you rquire any more information please feel free to email me at Ben Ragg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello The While discussing "Ansett" The Glassons said… TG I only caught a quick flash on the news the other day that an Ansett TG aircraft plunged 7000m after some emergency (depressurisation??)How TG typical of non-aviation journalists to convert it to metres instead of TG leaving it in feet or Flight Levels!!! I suppose that seeing as we are a metric country, that the media expresses all measurements in metric. Incidentally, I went to the US with Air NZ last year. They had one of those screens that depicted a map and the course, position, speed and altitude (plus time to arrival, etc). All the measurements were in metric (speed and altitude). As for flight levels, the general populace wouldn’t understand the terms, and if the journos don’t, then they ignore them. Cheers Martin -=- Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 Gippsland, Victoria, Australia http://www.gips.com.au/~mtaylor ICQ# 7571374

Response:

Does anybody know the rego of the A320 involved??

Also….can anybody post a quick summary of an A320’s pressurization system? Like, how many "outflow valves", how many "relief valves (safety valves) the system has?  It would have a *manual* mode would it not? TIA — Jock

Response:

Hello The While discussing "Ansett" The Glassons said…  TG I only caught a quick flash on the news the other day that an Ansett  TG aircraft plunged 7000m after some emergency (depressurisation??)How  TG typical of non-aviation journalists to convert it to metres instead of  TG leaving it in feet or Flight Levels!!! I suppose that seeing as we are a metric country, that the media expresses all measurements in metric. Incidentally, I went to the US with Air NZ last year. They had one of those screens that depicted a map and the course, position, speed and altitude (plus time to arrival, etc). All the measurements were in metric (speed and altitude). As for flight levels, the general populace wouldn’t understand the terms, and if the journos don’t, then they ignore them. Cheers Martin -=- Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 Gippsland, Victoria, Australia http://www.gips.com.au/~mtaylor ICQ# 7571374

Response:

Depends on the degree of emergency, and the crew decide that, not ATC. If it’s urgent enough, they may commence descent and tell ATC as they do it – reason being that there might be traffic immediately below them, which ATC will have to get out of the way real quick.  Crews maintain situational awareness for just this sort of reason and also as a back-up to the ATC system. If it’s less urgent, they might ask first so a more measured approach can be taken. Media being like it is about aviation, the way it was reported is likely to be quite different from how it actually happened. Cheers Frank

….snip…. Question from a newbie flyer  - how come they had to request permission to descend if it was an emergency and declared as such? Greg

Frank Paterson Disclaimer:  The opinions above are my own and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policies of my employer.

Response:

Does anybody know the rego of the A320 involved?? Damian

Response:

The report I read was that it was an Ansett A320 from Hobart to Melbourne at 10700m about to descend to 6400m when (quote) "

Question:

funny, paul, i actually posed that question to myself just last week.  in fact, that’s why i searched and found this group today.  i’ve just been diagnosed with daily migraines triggered by light.  i had thought they were due to my problem with TMJ for the last 20 years since i wake up with one every day.  they’re not even 10’s and i think of poking my eyes out just because it never seems to go away.  i spend a lot of time, indoors and out, behind dark sunglasses.  i never came up with an answer to the question though. stevie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, My name is Paul from England. I have been watching this group for at least 12 months, and find it really friendly with lots of interesting articles by you all. I am 56 male been divorced for19 years and look after my disabled daughter. I thought it about time I wrote in. Had the usual Migraines since I was 20. If you have had it, taken it, or suffered it, so have I. Luckily Imertex or Imigran as called here works, but I still dread the zig zags and the the biggest fear of using the maxium 2 injections before the 24 hours are up, and then getting a migraine. I do get a Migraine in my sleep and wake up with a 10, and like you, if only I could convince the doc’s what it is like. I have made a personal massive study on the subject and apart from keeping off aspartane, Vit C, there is no cure. I was a male nurse once, and don’t think of myself of knowing a lot about the workings of the body. One thing I have found out, that no one, ( I have asked Doctors, specialist, etc ) has ever come across a blind person getting a Migraine! So perhaps some professional out there can look into that fact, and if they can say why? maybe there is a link in a cure. To those whose life is really ruined and cannot stand the pain anymore, if ( this sounds crude I know ) knowing having your eyes removed would 100% cure migraine, would you? My self, when I have a 10, I would! I know if I had a gun in the room during a full blown attack, I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow my brains out. One day, maybe, the headlines in the paper will say, a cure for migraine. Oh to go out without the fear of one coming on. Hoping you all find the cure, Regards Paul

Response:

Had the usual Migraines since I was 20. If you have had it, taken it, or suffered it, so have I. Luckily Imertex or Imigran as called here works, but I still dread the zig zags and the the biggest fear of using the maxium 2 injections before the 24 hours are up, and then getting a migraine. I do get a Migraine in my sleep and wake up with a 10, and like you, if only I could convince the doc’s what it is like.

Tell the doc that when you wake up out of a deep sleep and get a ten, you don’t know if a robber came into your home and shot you in the head, or if it’s *another* ten+ migraine again.  Then you check for blood, thus confirming the latter to be true. My self, when I have a 10, I would! I know if I had a gun in the room during a full blown attack, I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow my brains out.

Although we would never keep a gun anyway, i can promise you that i will never buy one, even if i lost chris.  With a gun in the house, i would not be able to trick my mind to think of anything else but that final "relief." Keeping a full set of knives are bad enough.  Also i ask my husband not to keep the Elavil out of the safe….i know how to end my life using those. Deep peace to you, Paul…. Lavon

Response:

You probably don’t see too many eunuchs with the clap either. That’s probably not a good comparison though. I  would do almost anything to get rid of my migraines but I couldn’t give up my books. Tony

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, My name is Paul from England. I have been watching this group for at least 12 months, and find it really friendly with lots of interesting articles by you all. I am 56 male been divorced for19 years and look after my disabled daughter. I thought it about time I wrote in. Had the usual Migraines since I was 20. If you have had it, taken it, or suffered it, so have I. Luckily Imertex or Imigran as called here works, but I still dread the zig zags and the the biggest fear of using the maxium 2 injections before the 24 hours are up, and then getting a migraine. I do get a Migraine in my sleep and wake up with a 10, and like you, if only I could convince the doc’s what it is like. I have made a personal massive study on the subject and apart from keeping off aspartane, Vit C, there is no cure. I was a male nurse once, and don’t think of myself of knowing a lot about the workings of the body. One thing I have found out, that no one, ( I have asked Doctors, specialist, etc ) has ever come across a blind person getting a Migraine! So perhaps some professional out there can look into that fact, and if they can say why? maybe there is a link in a cure. To those whose life is really ruined and cannot stand the pain anymore, if ( this sounds crude I know ) knowing having your eyes removed would 100% cure migraine, would you? My self, when I have a 10, I would! I know if I had a gun in the room during a full blown attack, I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow my brains out. One day, maybe, the headlines in the paper will say, a cure for migraine. Oh to go out without the fear of one coming on. Hoping you all find the cure, Regards Paul

Response:

Wow Paul.  I sorta like seeing!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, My name is Paul from England. I have been watching this group for at least 12 months, and find it really friendly with lots of interesting articles by you all. I am 56 male been divorced for19 years and look after my disabled daughter. I thought it about time I wrote in. Had the usual Migraines since I was 20. If you have had it, taken it, or suffered it, so have I. Luckily Imertex or Imigran as called here works, but I still dread the zig zags and the the biggest fear of using the maxium 2 injections before the 24 hours are up, and then getting a migraine. I do get a Migraine in my sleep and wake up with a 10, and like you, if only I could convince the doc’s what it is like. I have made a personal massive study on the subject and apart from keeping off aspartane, Vit C, there is no cure. I was a male nurse once, and don’t think of myself of knowing a lot about the workings of the body. One thing I have found out, that no one, ( I have asked Doctors, specialist, etc ) has ever come across a blind person getting a Migraine! So perhaps some professional out there can look into that fact, and if they can say why? maybe there is a link in a cure. To those whose life is really ruined and cannot stand the pain anymore, if ( this sounds crude I know ) knowing having your eyes removed would 100% cure migraine, would you? My self, when I have a 10, I would! I know if I had a gun in the room during a full blown attack, I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow my brains out. One day, maybe, the headlines in the paper will say, a cure for migraine. Oh to go out without the fear of one coming on. Hoping you all find the cure, Regards Paul

Response:

Hello everyone, My name is Paul from England. I have been watching this group for at least 12 months, and find it really friendly with lots of interesting articles by you all. I am 56 male been divorced for19 years and look after my disabled daughter. I thought it about time I wrote in. Had the usual Migraines since I was 20. If you have had it, taken it, or suffered it, so have I. Luckily Imertex or Imigran as called here works, but I still dread the zig zags and the the biggest fear of using the maxium 2 injections before the 24 hours are up, and then getting a migraine. I do get a Migraine in my sleep and wake up with a 10, and like you, if only I could convince the doc’s what it is like. I have made a personal massive study on the subject and apart from keeping off aspartane, Vit C, there is no cure. I was a male nurse once, and don’t think of myself of knowing a lot about the workings of the body. One thing I have found out, that no one, ( I have asked Doctors, specialist, etc ) has ever come across a blind person getting a Migraine! So perhaps some professional out there can look into that fact, and if they can say why? maybe there is a link in a cure. To those whose life is really ruined and cannot stand the pain anymore, if ( this sounds crude I know ) knowing having your eyes removed would 100% cure migraine, would you? My self, when I have a 10, I would! I know if I had a gun in the room during a full blown attack, I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow my brains out. One day, maybe, the headlines in the paper will say, a cure for migraine. Oh to go out without the fear of one coming on. Hoping you all find the cure, Regards Paul

Response:

One thing I have found out, that no one, ( I have asked Doctors, specialist, etc ) has ever come across a blind person getting a Migraine! Okay, anecdotal evidence here: My mother (blind from childhood) got occasional migraines. One aunt, also blind since her late teens, gets them more severely…

I think there is a link between blindness and lack of migraines — but it depends on the TYPE of blindness. If the blindness is caused by retinopathy, it does not affect migraine — but if it is caused by optic nerve damage, it may. Anectdotal evidence: a friend of mine, Bill Cody, had almost-daily migraines and clusters both (on one side of his head only) until he was in a severe auto accident — during which his optic nerve on the "bad side" was severed. He is now blind in that eye and has not had a migraine or cluster since. And yes, i too have thought seriously about blinding myself on my "bad side" in order to stop the pain. cat yronwode

Response:

Hiya all, I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered that blind people don’t get Migraines?! If so I was hoping that by pointing this out that just maybe someone might think, why don’t blind people get Migraines, could it be the effect of colors that we see? I know the color red can course me to have one. Could it be a certain light that passes through our seeing eyes into the brain causes an attack? Where direct color and light are not seen by the blind, maybe there is a connection, I just don’t know. Although I havn’t wrote into this group before the last message I sent. I can honestly say that the group have come up with some great advice that I have taken, and which have really helped me. For example, I had never heard of aspertane before, almost every cordial and soda here have it in, and I had been drinking it. My migraines have eased a lot since cutting it out. I am always thinking of the unusual. How about that we are the lords chosen people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines Have fun Regards Paul

Response:

is blind in one eye because of an accident that severed his optic nerve….docs have always said it does’t matter, since he had mild ha  since age three and the accident happened when he was 13.should we look into this more?

 Does he get migraines on his blind side or on his sighted side, or on both sides at various times? cat yronwode

Response:

blind in one eye because of an accident that severed his optic nerve….docs have always said it does’t matter, since he had mild ha since age three and the accident happened when he was 13.should we look into this more?

Response:

I am always thinking of the unusual. How about that we are the lords chosen people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines

That can’t be it Paul.  Even though I had migraines on a near daily basis for well over twenty years it, in no way, comes close to accounting for all the times I’ve been bad.

Response:

Sorry to shoot down your theory, Paul, but I know a blind person who has severe migraines. — Teri Robert your About Guide to Headaches http://headaches.about.com visit our forum at: http://headaches.about.com/mpboards.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hiya all, I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered that blind people don’t get Migraines?! If so I was hoping that by pointing this out that just maybe someone might think, why don’t blind people get Migraines, could it be the effect of colors that we see? I know the color red can course me to have one. Could it be a certain light that passes through our seeing eyes into the brain causes an attack? Where direct color and light are not seen by the blind, maybe there is a connection, I just don’t know. Although I havn’t wrote into this group before the last message I sent. I can honestly say that the group have come up with some great advice that I have taken, and which have really helped me. For example, I had never heard of aspertane before, almost every cordial and soda here have it in, and I had been drinking it. My migraines have eased a lot since cutting it out. I am always thinking of the unusual. How about that we are the lords chosen people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines Have fun Regards Paul

Response:

Then perhaps it is not that blind people do not get them, but rather that blind people do not have the capacity to suffer from triggers for migraines from which sighted folks suffer.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s not true. Blind people DO get migraines. I have a blind friend who has them. Teri  Hiya all,  I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying  to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered  that blind people don’t get Migraines?!

Response:

Actually, I’m not quite sure. I only know that she’s been blind since birth. Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s not true. Blind people DO get migraines. I have a blind friend who has them. I think the question that remains is "what is the cause of the blindness?" Although the original poster did not say it clearly, he was speaking, i think, about blindness caused by severing the optic nerve, not by retinopathy, for instance, or other cause of blindness. Does your blind friend with migraine have a severed optic nerve? If not, the blindness may not be relevant. If so, it would be. Medical theories linking migraine with optic nerve dysfunction and/or visual cortex disfunction have not been ruled out and are being investigated at present. Even if the optic nerve and visual cortex are not implicated in ALL forms of migraine, they certainly are involved at some level (if not on a strictly causal level) with the visual aura of classic migraine. cat (Scintillating Scotomas "R" Us) yronwode

Response:

That’s not true. Blind people DO get migraines. I have a blind friend who has them.

I think the question that remains is "what is the cause of the blindness?" Although the original poster did not say it clearly, he was speaking, i think, about blindness caused by severing the optic nerve, not by retinopathy, for instance, or other cause of blindness. Does your blind friend with migraine have a severed optic nerve? If not, the blindness may not be relevant. If so, it would be.   Medical theories linking migraine with optic nerve dysfunction and/or visual cortex disfunction have not been ruled out and are being investigated at present. Even if the optic nerve and visual cortex are not implicated in ALL forms of migraine, they certainly are involved at some level (if not on a strictly causal level) with the visual aura of classic migraine. cat (Scintillating Scotomas "R" Us) yronwode

Response:

That’s not true. Blind people DO get migraines. I have a blind friend who has them. Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Hiya all,  I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying  to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered  that blind people don’t get Migraines?!

Response:

 Hiya all,  I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying  to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered  that blind people don’t get Migraines?!

Are you sure about that? I’d be really curious to see some research, if there is any. I am always thinking of the unusual. How about that we are the lords chosen people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I  was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines

Then I’ve died and gone to Hell. (Qu’elle suprise…) Dana

Response:

 Hiya all,  I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying  to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered  that blind people don’t get Migraines?! If so I was hoping that by pointing  this out that just maybe someone might think, why don’t blind people get  Migraines, could it be the effect of colors that we see? I know the color  red can course me to have one. Could it be a certain light that passes  through our seeing eyes into the brain causes an attack? Where direct color  and light are not seen by the blind, maybe there is a connection, I just  don’t know.  Although I havn’t wrote into this group before the last message I sent. I  can honestly say that the group have come up with some great advice that I  have taken, and which have really helped me. For example, I had never heard  of aspertane before, almost every cordial and soda here have it in, and I  had been drinking it. My migraines have eased a lot since cutting it out.  I am always thinking of the unusual. How about that we are the lords chosen  people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I  was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines  Have fun  Regards Paul

Response:

Newsgroups: alt.support.headaches.migraine How about that we are the lords chosen people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines Have fun Regards Paul

Grrrrrr now  you sound that the minister I posted about a few weeks ago.  :(

Response:

sounds like you have a great suport team!

Response:

I have paid close attention to myself and 2 other woman with migraines…and i REALLY REALLY feel barometric pressure plays a roll in many of our migraines.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you say weather triggered headaches, what does that mean.  I noticed moving from the northeast to central Florida  my migraines became more frequent.  Also no matter how long i  am visiting out west I never experience a headache.  In Florida my migraines are few and far between from Feb through April.  This month they started up again. Imitrex aborts the headache within 30 minutes so I do not suffer the pain as I once did.  I am concerned about the increase in frequency even though I am able to treat the thing.  Different  parts of the country experience different vegatation and weather patterns,  I have wondered if  mine  are trigered by the enviorment  or weather. Not sure who you were replying to. I get headaches with heat and humidity. I have low bp (85/56 tops) and get very faint as well as chest pains in the heat and humidity. My son gets headaches if his body overheats due to temperature, exhertion or emotions. He also must always wear a hat or he gets a headache. I also get migraines with weather changes (barometric pressure etc.) I used to always feel much better when the storm hit but now not always. My son’s headaches start when the rain begins. The majority of my triggers are odours and pollen, cut grass, moldy smells, fragrance etc. are problems. My kids are also odour sensitive and sound sensitive. Bright light is also a problem. http://search.canoe.ca/HealthReference/migraine_9.html http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/15da0a.htm kadee

Response:

There is no doubt about it.  Many different people … many different triggers.  Some of us have many triggers; some have several ; some only one or two. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -.  Could it be that there are different triggers for migraine just as there are for asthma?

Response:

I know that both of my children have asthma.  One has weather induced attacks and one has exercise induced attacks.  Could it be that there are different triggers for migraine just as there are for asthma?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you say weather triggered headaches, what does that mean.  I noticed moving from the northeast to central Florida  my migraines became more frequent.  Also no matter how long i  am visiting out west I never experience a headache.  In Florida my migraines are few and far between from Feb through April.  This month they started up again. Imitrex aborts the headache within 30 minutes so I do not suffer the pain as I once did.  I am concerned about the increase in frequency even though I am able to treat the thing.  Different  parts of the country experience different vegatation and weather patterns,  I have wondered if  mine  are trigered by the enviorment  or weather.

Response:

Hi All.. My migaines did not go away after menapause either. My triggers are also the same except that I don’t get the migraine that came with "that time of the month" because I don’t have "that time" anymore.  In that way I  get just one less migraine per month.  That’s just common sense and I don’t see that as much to write home about. I have ALL the triggers – sunlight, florescent lights, barometric pressure (& I live in the Tropics – lot’s of ups & downs – downs being the worst), foods, liqour, sinus, dehydration, fatigue…we all know the list goes on & on. On the other hand, my Mother’s migraines DID go away after menapause…go figure!! KJJ

Response:

Barbara, I think your migraines may be triggered by environment AND weather conditions. In Florida we have lost of ups & downs in barometric pressure, as I just posted.  The high humidity we experience here is also a trigger for me. Maybe you too.  Just the plain ole heat of the day can cause  a migraine.  I try to stay indoors during the hottest part of the day. We are now getting into the hottest & highest humidity parts of the year.  That could be the cause of more frequent migraines, I’m sorry to say.  I have lived in this state for most of my life so I’ve had plenty of time to observe these patterns. Good luck, but it’s such a beautiful place to live I hope you find a way to deal with the conditions here. KJJ

Response:

When you say weather triggered headaches, what does that mean.  I noticed moving from the northeast to central Florida  my migraines became more frequent.  Also no matter how long i  am visiting out west I never experience a headache.  In Florida my migraines are few and far between from Feb through April.  This month they started up again. Imitrex aborts the headache within 30 minutes so I do not suffer the pain as I once did.  I am concerned about the increase in frequency even though I am able to treat the thing.  Different  parts of the country experience different vegatation and weather patterns,  I have wondered if  mine  are trigered by the enviorment  or weather.  

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Question:

Hi   Which is the most popular accounting software package in the UK and which would be the best to study so as to ensure a job ???     Cheers            Paul

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi   Which is the most popular accounting software package in the UK and which would be the best to study so as to ensure a job ???     Cheers            Paul

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It’s my experience from talking to 4 or 5 state boards of accountancy that _most_ states don’t require experience in public accounting.  Ohio requires 2 years of accounting experience — but it most certainly doesn’t have to be in public (I’ve never worked in public).  Used to be, Ohio required twice as much experience if you weren’t in public, but that changed in ‘96 (right before I passed the exam…whew!!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m confused.  Didn’t you already have to work for a CPA firm for at least 2 or 3 years to become a CPA?  Is there a state that doesn’t require CPA firm experience to become a CPA?

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| | I am a CPA who has worked in industry all of my professional life (7 | years).  I’d like to get the experience that is available only by | working for a CPA firm.  My current position is controller, salary mid | 40’s.  Would a CPA firm be interested in me, would I have to take a big | cut in pay.  Any advice is welcome. | |I’m confused.  Didn’t you already have to work for a CPA firm for at |least 2 or 3 years to become a CPA?  Is there a state that doesn’t |require CPA firm experience to become a CPA? |Robert J. Romano, CPA |Arlington, Massachusetts |(781) 648-4966 |http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/rjromano Plenty of CPAs working for Federal Gov’t w/o working for a CPA firm. J. Ime (Reverse letters in domain to respond)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a CPA who has worked in industry all of my professional life (7 years).  I’d like to get the experience that is available only by working for a CPA firm.  My current position is controller, salary mid 40’s.  Would a CPA firm be interested in me, would I have to take a big cut in pay.  Any advice is welcome. I’m confused.  Didn’t you already have to work for a CPA firm for at least 2 or 3 years to become a CPA?  Is there a state that doesn’t require CPA firm experience to become a CPA? Robert J. Romano, CPA Arlington, Massachusetts (781) 648-4966 http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/rjromano

        Many states don’t require that you work for a CPA firm; they just require that you work under the supervision of a CPA.         This is the case in North Carolina.

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I am a CPA who has worked in industry all of my professional life (7 years).  I’d like to get the experience that is available only by working for a CPA firm.  My current position is controller, salary mid 40’s.  Would a CPA firm be interested in me, would I have to take a big cut in pay.  Any advice is welcome.

I’m confused.  Didn’t you already have to work for a CPA firm for at least 2 or 3 years to become a CPA?  Is there a state that doesn’t require CPA firm experience to become a CPA? Robert J. Romano, CPA Arlington, Massachusetts (781) 648-4966 http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/rjromano

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I am a CPA who has worked in industry all of my professional life (7 years).  I’d like to get the experience that is available only by working for a CPA firm.  My current position is controller, salary mid 40’s.  Would a CPA firm be interested in me, would I have to take a big cut in pay.

Yes, a CPA firm would be interested, but yes, you’d have to take a significant salary cut. Lot’s of variables here of course, but I’d say it would take at least 3-4 years to work back to a comparable salary if you want to stay with a CPA firm and are fairly good at it. — Vernon (Vern) Paige

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I am a CPA who has worked in industry all of my professional life (7 years).  I’d like to get the experience that is available only by working for a CPA firm.  My current position is controller, salary mid 40’s.  Would a CPA firm be interested in me, would I have to take a big cut in pay.  Any advice is welcome.

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BBS operator Tony Davis found guilty of distribution of obscene material Additional info can be had at this web site http://www.empirenet.com:80/~profile/tony/ Regards,  Matt From Boardwatch Magazine, Written by Lance Rose

TONY DAVIS & THE SHOW-BIZ COPS OF OKLAHOMA CITY The arrest of Tony Davis was reported in last month’s Boardwatch. Davis operated the Oklahoma Information Exchange BBS in Oklahoma City. On August 17, 1993, he was formally arraigned in Oklahoma state court and allowed to remain out of jail on $4500 bail. Since the first report, we looked into this affair more closely. The closer one looks, the more absurd Davis’ plight gets. The police investigation of Tony Davis culminated in two purchases of allegedly obscene CD-ROMs from Davis by undercover police on June 4th and July 12th, 1993. Shortly after the second purchase, on July 19, 1993, they arrived in force at Tony Davis’ office with a warrant and seized some adult CD-ROMs from the stock he maintained in operating a CD-ROM retail business.  They did not stop there, however. They also grabbed his BBS computer equipment and arrested Davis. The event had little chance of passing unnoticed, as the police brought along a professional video camera and videotaped the whole affair.  Afterwards they edited the tape, wrote a script, and with the help of the local ABC affiliate turned it into a weekly installment of a "reality television" program called "You’re Busted". It was broadcast throughout the Oklahoma City area on July 23rd, four days after the raid. For that extra dose of reality, the episode was narrated by one of the policemen who searched Davis’ place and arrested him. As the police burst in on Davis, the voiceover informed TV viewers they were witnessing the control center for Davis’ "international pornographic network". Out of roughly 2,000 CD- ROMs Davis kept on hand for the CD-ROM retail business he operated, the police confiscated 57. For purposes of comparison, that’s under 3% of Davis’ total stock of CD-ROMs. A far smaller percentage than the amount of hardcore adult material found in typical video stores in most parts of our country. Later in the show, the cop with the video camera focused on a computer screen showing the CD-ROM activity on Davis’ BBS. The names of BBS users could be seen as they downloaded files from CD- ROMs. The narrating officer knowingly explained to the TV audience that they were seeing BBS users "viewing the smut" right then and there (not to spoil the fun, but the police were mistaken; users can’t read image files they are transferred to their own computers). At the end of the show, the narrator belted out the show’s theme: "Tony Davis, you’re busted!" Davis did not enjoy his 15 minutes of fame. According to Davis, "the ‘You’re Busted’ show was the most degrading thing I’ve seen done to anybody in my life." The newspapers were thoroughly scooped but joined in spiritedly, passing along police allegations that Tony Davis was running a "high- tech, modern-day porno house". They noted that other investigations continued, which might mean the police were investigating Davis’ CD- ROM suppliers, his customers, or both. To their credit, they also gave a number of column inches to questions raised by Davis’ defense attorney, William Holmes, about the legality of the police actions. Davis was charged with four obscenity-related counts at the arraignment, two based on the CD-ROM purchases by undercover officers prior to the raid.  Another count charged Davis with criminal "possession" of obscenity, despite the Supreme Court’s declaration in the past that mere possession of obscene material is perfectly legal. The addition of this bizarre claim indicates either that the local police do not understand the Constitutional rights of U.S. citizens, or do not care. The last count was for trafficking in obscene images. According to Davis’ attorney, this statute was originally enacted in reaction to pornographic video games, and now seems to be directed at the downloading of BBS files that the cops videotaped.  All charges could have a very hard time sticking if the defective search and seizure procedures used by the police are closely scrutinized in court. Those procedures do appear deeply defective. Federal protections for BBS’s and sysops were apparently ignored wholesale in the Davis raid, just as in other BBS raids we’ve seen the past couple of years. The Electronic Communications Privacy Act ("ECPA"), protects electronic messages against government search or seizure. When the police took Davis’ BBS, they prevented messages traveling through the BBS from being delivered to their ultimate addresses. About 150 messages went undelivered, according to Davis’ attorney. This interception violates the ECPA, even if the police resisted the temptation to read e-mail on the seized computers back in their offices. The Privacy Protection Act ("PPA"), prohibits seizure of materials being kept or prepared for publication, unless the person holding them is suspected of a crime involving those very materials (with a few narrow exceptions). Davis’ business activities included publishing the "Magnum" series of CD-ROMS, none of which were included in the titles the police thought obscene. By seizing computers containing the materials used by Davis’ in publishing his CD-ROMs, the police grossly violated the PPA.  Since Davis was not suspected or accused of any crime in relation to the Magnum CD- ROMs he published, any associated materials simply should not have been touched by the police. Even plain vanilla 4th and 5th Amendment warrant requirements may have been violated by the police in this case. According to sources, the Oklahoma City police typically obtain a warrant based on an informal chat with the magistrate. Afterwards, they perform the actions authorized by the warrant, and only then submit a formal affidavit to support the warrant. If the police followed this sloppy and deeply illegal procedure in Davis’ case, then his due process rights were grossly violated. As a further example of official slop, neither the warrant under which the raid was conducted, nor the police request for that warrant, mentioned Davis’ computer bulletin board at all. That fatal omission did not stop the cops from taking all the computer equipment anyway. Perhaps the Oklahoma City prosecutors believe the seizure was legal because it is authorized under Oklahoma’s own obscenity seizure statutes. If so, they’re dead wrong. Federal due process protections trump state seizure laws. There was no emergency here to justify even a temporary abridgement of Davis’ full due process rights. The particular importance of the ECPA and PPA should not be underestimated by Oklahoma state attorneys or anyone else. The protections of these statutes are so important that Congress spelled them out expressly, even though in a sense they merely clarify protections already contained in the Constitution. The police cannot bat these protections out of the way every time they threaten this week’s episode of "You’re Busted." Davis’ lawyer, himself a former local prosecutor, appears fully aware of the mess the police are making of the Davis matter. He sent them a letter a week after the raid formally notifying them they are violating the ECPA and PPA through their seizure and retention of Davis’ computer equipment.  In doing so, he is trying to short circuit a possible future defense by the cops that they did not know they were doing anything wrong by holding Davis’ equipment. Readers of Boardwatch may recall the lawsuit won by Steve Jackson Games against the U.S. government in Austin, Texas a few months back. The federal court held that the agents’ naive BBS seizure violating the ECPA and PPA could be excused, but the agents became obligated to return the wrongly seized materials as soon as they found out about their privacy and publishing aspects and the laws forbidding their seizure.  The same should certainly hold true here. Despite this precedent, as of August 19th the police still did not return anything to Davis, almost a month after receiving his lawyer’s notifying letter. Why did the police pick on Davis? It certainly wasn’t due to their keen law enforcement instincts. Despite the screaming newspaper headlines about porno shop merchants, Davis is a well- known and respected business man. He runs a telephone goods and services company, selling equipment and special services like Centrex switching to local area businesses. He was operating Oklahoma Information Exchange, a widely reputed and very busy BBS. He was one of the founders of Fidonet, and was Region 19 coordinator for several years. In his CD-ROM business, he sold many titles (with adult titles accounting for a minute portion of his business), and produced his own Magnum CD-ROMs. Davis also had a fairly extensive age verification scheme to assure only adults were getting access to adult materials on his BBS. Memberships were which to those who had credit cards. In addition, to get access to the adult area users had to send Davis assigned letter stating they were over 21. Despite these measures, when the dust cleared Davis’ standing as a businessman and his age verification procedures did nothing to slow down the police. After talking with Davis, his attorney and other local sources, the blame for his troubles should be laid on the creepy little deal the Oklahoma City police cooked up with the local ABC TV affiliate for the "You’re Busted" television program. The TV station gave the police a professional video camera and the opportunity to shoot, script and narrate a TV program called "You’re Busted". The payoff to the police was 15 minutes of fame on a weekly basis for individual cops, and great publicity and a high profile for police department as a whole. In return, the TV station received a TV show in hugely … read more »

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:      IN THE NAME AND BY THE AUTHORITY OF THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA, COMES : NOW ROBERT H. MACY THE DULY ELECTED, QUALIFIED AND ACTING DISTRICT : ATTORNEY IN AND FOR OKLAHOMA COUNTY, DISTRICT NO. 7, STATE OF : OKLAHOMA, AND ON HIS OFFICIAL OATH INFORMS THE DISTRICT COURT THAT What a worthless profession (district attorney)!  It is shameful that ANYONE in public office have all this honorary crap heaped upon themselves. When I get in front of my students to teach, I don’t make them all rise and announce my presence as the Great and Honorable So-and-So. :          DISTRIBUTION OF OBSCENE WRITING, PAPER, BOOK, PICTURE, It’s not obscene, in my opinion, so it’s not illegal. Why should the court listen to some anti-sex terrorists’ opinion about what is legal? :          STATUTES AND AGAINST THE PEACE AND DIGNITY OF THE STATE OF :          OKLAHOMA. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the "PEACE AND DIGNITY OF OKLAHOMA" As far as I’m concerned, the people in Oklahoma City enjoyed being blown up in the Oklahoma City bombing and certainly deserved it:  they were all guilty of conspiracy in breaking the 4th and 1st Amendments and of terrorism against this man (Tony Davis).   There is NOTHING obscene against whatever pictures he had:  there were no pictures of animals or humans being tortured to death (say in laboratory experiments or factory farms).  It is certainly my legal authority and duty to stand up against criminals who use violence against victims like Tony Davis.

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To say that the schools serve no useful purpose is unfair.

I don’t think that you’ll find any statement in rec.boats where someone asserts that ASA schools serve no useful purpose. You *will* find that lots of us have said that you can learn a lot more about sailing for a lot less money in other ways, and have described those ways. -JOhn

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        I took the first two levels of ASA courses as someone with very little experience.  The first was on a 27′ and the second on a 32′.  I basically agree that they probably get you on too big a boat too fast.  I promptly went out and bought a 15′ BW Harpoon.  I honestly don’t know how anyone could feel competent to skipper a boat that big after just taking the courses.  You’d have to be an idiot.  This is not to say that I didn’t learn something but you have to have some common sense.  In the absence of a mentor,  at least these courses will teach you the basics so I think they are useful.  For sailing time they certainly are no more expensive per person than most captained charters I’ve seen.  I think they are expecially useful for someone who may have the opportunity to sail with someone but wants to show up with some knowledge.         As with all certification, ASA certificaton indicates only that a test has been taken and must be interpreted by a charter company in conjunction with what they see standing before them.  It is a certification of the completion of a block of training time, not a garauntee of competence.  This is true in all fields from medicine to accounting and expectations that sailing should be any different are simply unrealistic.  To say that the schools serve no useful purpose is unfair.

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