Question:

Hi All, Am looking for a medical Accounting and billing software program for a medium size practice – 10,000 clients at most, never that many active. Does not need to be SQL or anything like that… GUI for sure, not DOS – Running a Win2K Server, five workstations. Any suggestions or thoughts GREATLY appreciated. — Rich "Doc" Colley

Response:

Doc, I suggest you check out the practice management software at HealthConex.com.  The product you need is called Link 6.  Their website is http://www.healthconex.com/link6product2.htm. Their toll free phone number is 800-594-3228.  Press 3 to connect to Ted Broman.  I’ve referred people to him and he knows his stuff. Good luck, Arnold – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, Am looking for a medical Accounting and billing software program for a medium size practice – 10,000 clients at most, never that many active. Does not need to be SQL or anything like that… GUI for sure, not DOS – Running a Win2K Server, five workstations. Any suggestions or thoughts GREATLY appreciated.

Response:

Question:

they’re great, and we should all get to do whatever we want, but they are by no means absolutely necessary. And I guess you’re the guy to decide what’s necessary to a kid and what isn’t.

Okay, flip side. Let’s say that the "guidelines" of 20% ~ 30% (if I discuss this long enough you’ll see me quoting State "guidelines" of 7% just to get my expectations down! ) are actually accurate, and that in a family, any family, on average, parents spend 7% of their income on the needs of their children (see, I told you I’d get to 7%!).  What happens when the resident parent decides that that 5% shouldn’t get spent on karate lessons, but should instead get spent on a mink coat, dinners with the boyfriend, whatever. Now, please remember this is a theoretical post.  I am not saying that anybody in this group (or the other one that I did not add back into the headers) does that, but how come there is an outroar against the "dead beat dad" who doesn’t pay for the child’s karate lessons, yet there is no opposite outcry on the other side except for, ‘well, it is her money?’ Rambler (yes, yes, projection, working through issues)

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement? My guess is, they were taught that by their parents. Some people just seem to have been raised to believe the world or society or the law owes them something.

    No doubt parents have something to do with any feeling of entitlement. If parents have the idea that the world owes them a living, put that principle into action, and are rewarded for doing so, the children will absorb the message.     However, we’re talking here specifically about spousal and child support.  As I’ve pointed out before, in the overwhelming majority of case these are flows of money from men to women.  Who would challenge the feeling of entitlement on the part of those receiving the money, or wanting to receive the money?  The natural source of any challenge would be those who are PAYING the money.  And there we get to the nub of the issue.  Is there any organized group that can put over the message that there is no justice in forcing men to pay this money to their ex-wives or ex-girlfriends?  Is there even any group that seeks to put over the message that these money flows provide incentives for family breakups, and therefore are extremely damaging to society?     To me, there is one really striking element about the current situation in the U.S. in regard to the money flows associated with fatherless families.  It’s the dirty little secret that, in this field — as elsewhere — if you subsidize some behavior, you get more of it.  On the one hand, politicians bewail social pathologies like crime rates, falling educational standards, and teen pregnancies.  One the other hand, however, the same politicians are doing all they can to force men to subsidize the very breeding ground for these social pathologies — fatherless families.     The reason for this weird situation is that men haven’t found their voice politically.  Men are still unable to make their views felt when the interests of the two sexes are in conflict. So women’s feeling of entitlement continues unchallenged.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I sure don’t believe that it’s an entitlement. At the same time, I also don’t believe that it’s fair and equitable for a child to live one lifestyle while his/her parents are married and then be expected to live a much lower one because his parents couldn’t/ wouldn’t stay married. OK, back to the topic at hand.  I would agree that it is not fair to the child.  But, what is fair?  Is it fair to the adult for one lifestyle to go down drastically?  One person should not be placed above another, regardless of age. I question the practicality of the expectation.  If both parents make $60,000/yr and maintain one household, how is it possible for the same two people to make the same amount of money then maintain two households at the same level as before?  It’s just not realistic.  We shouldn’t deceive ourselves into thinking it is.  If the income split is something like 80/20, then the argument could be made for some kind of income distribution.  (if someone wants to argue "no money, ever", please start another thread).

Yes, even if the $120 is on an 80/20 split, every body is going to lose. True, the person that is making 20% of the money will see an increase over what it is that their standard of living would be if they continued to make 20% of the total, but they will see a drop in standard of living of where they came from. I guess an additional bitter pill is that the person meeting 80% of the income is also going to see a drop in their standard of living, and this becomes more bitter, I would think, if that person was not the one that wanted the whole thing to occur in the first place.  Yes indeed, we seperate the issues of marital divorce from parental divorce, and we hold the "best interests of the kids" to be paramount, but this forced imbalance can be hard to swallow (personal experience here). Side note: Looks like I might actually make some money shortly.  Looks like ultimately it could be a good chunk.  I still do not have a child maintenance order in place.  I had decided that I would start with paying an amount equal to about 25% of income, though running the state support calculators it looks like it should be more like 20%, but I had also thought about doing 30% (this is because my solicitor here originally set my expectation of being 40% of income – aargh).  Now, this will be approximately 2x’s what my ex makes currently, which flips me out.  There is part of me that thought "make sure you get an accounting of what exactly it was spent on."  Decided against that.  If she is going to blow it on herself (and, aargh, the ex-MIL) so be it. But I must tell you that that other thread where only one party is required to make the utmost that they can really stuck in my craw.  This is the most bass-ackwards way of thinking I have ever seen. </rant off   But, if they both make about the same amount of money, then lifestyle will go down.  It has to.  Simple economics.  Is it the child’s fault?  No.  But, that’s life.  No one steps in and guarantees the lifestyle of that child if the parents do stay married. What happens if the father in a family loses his job and the only job he can find is four months later and 60% of what he is used to making? Where are the advocates of children’s lifestyle in demanding that that child’s lifestyle be mainatin at what it was previously, no matter what?  They ain’t there. I am not in any way suggesting that a child (or spouse) be expected to live in squalor, but the idea that a particular lifestyle is somehow an entitlement, is just plain unfair and wrong.

Yes, if we were all rational and caring, I agree.  It seems that the system is driven to account for the "what if" cases.  I still disagree with the camp that says that child support should be only for minimal existence.  I think that it should be for level of income.  If a person is going to try and start there own business, then they are going to try and start their own business, either within or without a marriage.  Penalizing them for that and saying, no, you must be an ATM machine, is jsut plain wrong. Just my longwinded 2 cents worth. Rambler

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think there is a big difference between karate lessons and having a good place to live. If it’s a question between karate lessons and Michael Jordan Nike’s, or living in a decent home, with good food on the table… there’s no contest. I grew up in a decent home, in a decent neighborhood, with good food on the table, all without karate lessons, and my sneakers weren’t $100.00 ‘designer’ shoes… just a good pair of Keds. I think that too often, we fall into the trap of having to provide the latest and greatest ‘things,’ in or for our kids to live a good ‘lifestyle.’ Were made to feel like bad parents if we don’t get our kids ‘X-boxes’ or the new MP3 player, or the designer clothes. Kids don’t need those things. But, those things are often counted as ‘particular lifestyle’ that must be maintained. It’s an ‘unwritten rule’ that we as parents are supposed to provide better for our kids, then our parents provided for us….. I don’t know about the rest of you… but I’m not doing as well as my parents did… Not that I don’t get paid well… but it just seems like there are so many more things to pay for these days. A primary example: my parents never had to worry about health insurance. Typically, it was 100% paid…. with virtually no out-of-pocket expenses. For me, every year, my health insurance premiums go up, and I have more and more out of pocket expenses for doctor’s visits. I think as a society, we have gotten so much to the point where we try to provide too much for the kids. Some of my fondest memories as a child, was getting together with the other neighborhood kids for a game of baseball, or football. I distinctly remember bolting out the door at an early hour, disappearing with my friends for hours…. sometimes not doing anything more then riding our bikes all over the neighborhood. There were no karate classes, no ballet lessons, no video games, no cable T.V., no CD’s, VHS tapes, DVD’s… etc…. Somehow, with these ‘limited’ activities… I had lots of fun. These days, if we suggest to our kids that they just ‘go outside and find something to do’ (a favorite quote from my mother) we’re somehow ‘bad’ parents. If this is true, then I’d have to say that 90% of my parents generation were ‘bad’ parents. My parents made it a point to tell me that no one owed me anything in this life, and that if I wanted something… I had to work for it. I sometimes think that we’re teaching our kids these days, that you’re ‘owed’ a good life… and if you can’t get it yourself, then someone else ‘owes it’ to them….

You are much more eloquent than I have been on this particular subject. I agree with Indyguy1’s point that times have changed and you can’t turn the clock back completely, but I also agree with your points.  At some point, parents need to start being parents again and drawing a line between catering unnecessarily to their kid’s whims and teaching them values in the way they provide for them. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

to change that protocol to THEIR liking.  Sounds pretty self-centered and presumptuous to me.

I bow to your expertise on self-centeredness and presumption. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

The legal system encourages it, also.  To take it to a seemingly absurd degree, can you see a kid sueing the government when they’re 22 because their lifestyle sucks and they were told through their parent’s divorce that they’re "entitled" to the lifestyle they had grown accustomed to?

Never happen.  The government doesn’t let anybody sue them.  Instead, they’ll encourage suits against divorced dads for the "emotional pain" that’s supposed to be THEIR fault.

Response:

I think as a society, we have gotten so much to the point where we try to provide too much for the kids. Some of my fondest memories as a child, was getting together with the other neighborhood kids for a game of baseball, or football. Problem with that is most other kids are at their ballet lesson, soccer practice, etc. and trying to get enough kids together for a game of baseball would be difficult at best, around these parts.

Getting OT a bit: Do kids really benefit from the increased competitiveness that has taken over soccer, baseball, dance, etc.?  I played little league, but at the end of the season we had one playoff game after the season was over.  Today, when the season’s over, they travel all over the place and keep playing until they lose twice.  The level of stress put on these kids is incredible.  I like that competition would increase as one gets older.  A 16 yr old should be playing more seriously than an 8 yr old.  But, the primary purpose of the 8 yr old should be honing skills and having fun.  When the season’s over, it should be done.  I sometimes wonder if all these competitions and tournements aren’t really for the parents more than the kids. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement? My guess is, they were taught that by their parents. Some people just seem to have been raised to believe the world or society or the law owes them something.

The legal system encourages it, also.  To take it to a seemingly absurd degree, can you see a kid sueing the government when they’re 22 because their lifestyle sucks and they were told through their parent’s divorce that they’re "entitled" to the lifestyle they had grown accustomed to? I know it sounds ridiculous, but with today’s legal system, and the rationalizing that some people do, I wouldn’t be surprised if something like that did happen. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement?

My guess is, they were taught that by their parents. Some people just seem to have been raised to believe the world or society or the law owes them something.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t realize, though, that karate lessons were a requirement for a happy childhood or a necessary lifestyle aspect critical to positive development. Well, Dave I don’t know the ins and outs of your area but in my area and other areas I am familar with, kids not being involved in activities, sports, etc.  have a major strike going against them. If they want to make a school  team they had better have experience or they will watching from the stands. If they don’t have a group they hang with, usually with a common interest ie: karate, they often end up with the less desirable crowd.   Don’t get me wrong, they’re great, and we should all get to do whatever we want, but they are by no means absolutely necessary. Neither are birthday presents, a bike, and just about everything above food, shelter, an education and medical care. Although most parents want their kids to have more than what is absolutely necessary.

I agree 100% with everything you say.  My kids have almost always been involved with sports, for example, for precisely the reasons you cite. That’s not what I’m saying, though.  Of course we want the best for our kids.  Of course we want to give them a happy childhood and a chance for success, and so on.  I understand the desire and I most certainly understand the benefits to all of that.  But, if money’s tight, and it costs $140 to play baseball, and it’s either that or the rent, you have to make hard choices.  And, when a family splits, and the same money that once kept one household afloat is now keeping two households afloat (rent x2 takes a big chuck out of available money), sometimes something has to give. As I was writing this response, a thought occured to me: Did we debate this before and agree to disagree? — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

And I guess you’re the guy to decide what’s necessary to a kid and what isn’t.

Where would you put karate lessons on the priority list? BTW, I also am not going to further participate in this thread because, even though I removed the other newsgroup from my headers when I replied, you put it back in.  I’ll choose what groups I participate in.

LOL!!!  When I first saw your name as a responder I saw this one coming. You knew I’d put it back in just because I knew you were testing me. Or, something to that effect.  We know each other too well.  Hey, maybe we should get married! I guess I don’t get to choose what groups I participate in, eh?  I should bow down to what somebody else wants, just because they want it that way.  I find it interesting that people will join in an already established thread, with an already established protocol, then expect to change that protocol to THEIR liking.  Sounds pretty self-centered and presumptuous to me. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip to I think as a society, we have gotten so much to the point where we try to provide too much for the kids. Some of my fondest memories as a child, was getting together with the other neighborhood kids for a game of baseball, or football. Problem with that is most other kids *are* at their ballet lesson, soccer practice, etc. and trying to get enough kids together for a game of baseball would be difficult at best, around these parts.  I distinctly remember bolting out the door at an early hour, disappearing with my friends for hours…. sometimes not doing anything more then riding our bikes all over the neighborhood. LOL, we used to build forts in the empty lots in our nieghborhood. We’d take off in the AM show up for lunch and then be gone til dinner time. Too bad kids can’t do that any more.

It’s more than "too bad".     It’s PATHETIC.  There were no karate classes, no ballet lessons, no video games, no cable T.V., no CD’s, VHS tapes, DVD’s… etc…. Somehow, with these ‘limited’ activities… I had lots of fun.

NO!    Say it isn’t so!!!     (This will fall on deaf ears, Indyguy). I was a child in the 50’s and 60’s as much as I wish we could turn back the clock we can’t.

PLEEEEZ?    Pretty pleeez?    I’ll even get down on my hands and knees and beg…  These days, if we suggest to our kids that they just ‘go outside and find something to do’ (a favorite quote from my mother) we’re somehow ‘bad’ parents. If this is true, then I’d have to say that 90% of my parents generation were ‘bad’ parents. Oh I don’t think telling a child to go find something to do is equated to being a *bad parent*. We have a different world today. Just like kids didn’t have much more than a cardboard box and an imagination to have fun, they also only needed a HS diploma to be successful in a career. Like I said before, we live in a different world today.

Yeah – it’s more fucked up, and that’s a fact.    And with a BUNCH of spoiled brats in it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My parents made it a point to tell me that no one owed me anything in this life, and that if I wanted something… I had to work for it. I sometimes think that we’re teaching our kids these days, that you’re ‘owed’ a good life… and if you can’t get it yourself, then someone else ‘owes it’ to them…. That isn’t what I taught my children. I showed them what it is like to have a *nice* life. I gave them the tools they needed to be able to continue that life. I never taught them to depend on anyone other than themselves to get what they want in life. They know if they don’t get what they want they only have one person to blame and that is themselves. Mrs Indyguy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I appreciate your concern, and understand the desire to keep it in check, but there are times when crossposting is not only acceptable, it is preferable.   Preferable to whom? Not to me. And I would appreciate it if, I have posted to only one group, that you not add groups into your reply to me. If I wanted to post to alt.child-support, I would. That’s no different from saying "I would appreciate it if, I have posted to TWO groups, that you not delete one of them in your reply to me."  After all, if I had not wanted to post to the other group, I wouldn’t have done so. This is one of those times.  The topic is very relevant to both groups posted.  The other option, multi-posting, would result in fragmented conversations and make it much more difficult for anyone to follow. No, it wouldn’t. You follow the thread in the group it is in. IME, most crossposted stuff only ends up in flames. There’s a reason, you know, why I don’t read and post in alt.child-support. No, I don’t know. Do you want to discuss the topic, or not?

No. Not with you. Tracey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement?

You mean, who decided that kids should still be able to go to their karate lessons and wear decent shoes and go to the dentist?  I dunno….I’ll have to think about that and get back to you. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

You mean, who decided that kids should still be able to go to their karate lessons and wear decent shoes and go to the dentist?  I dunno….I’ll have to think about that and get back to you.

Decent shoes and dental appointments are one thing, and can easily be done if the two parents work together.  And, usually even when the two parents don’t work together.  I didn’t realize, though, that karate lessons were a requirement for a happy childhood or a necessary lifestyle aspect critical to positive development.  Don’t get me wrong, they’re great, and we should all get to do whatever we want, but they are by no means absolutely necessary. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

Do you want to discuss the topic, or not? No. Not with you.

Darn.  Ok. Side note:  If you hadn’t made it such an obvious point, I probably wouldn’t have even noticed.  The point about crossposting not automatically being evil still stands, though. — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement? You mean, who decided that kids should still be able to go to their karate lessons and wear decent shoes and go to the dentist?  I dunno….I’ll have to think about that and get back to you. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

I think there is a big difference between karate lessons and having a good place to live. If it’s a question between karate lessons and Michael Jordan Nike’s, or living in a decent home, with good food on the table… there’s no contest. I grew up in a decent home, in a decent neighborhood, with good food on the table, all without karate lessons, and my sneakers weren’t $100.00 ‘designer’ shoes… just a good pair of Keds. I think that too often, we fall into the trap of having to provide the latest and greatest ‘things,’ in or for our kids to live a good ‘lifestyle.’ Were made to feel like bad parents if we don’t get our kids ‘X-boxes’ or the new MP3 player, or the designer clothes. Kids don’t need those things. But, those things are often counted as ‘particular lifestyle’ that must be maintained. It’s an ‘unwritten rule’ that we as parents are supposed to provide better for our kids, then our parents provided for us….. I don’t know about the rest of you… but I’m not doing as well as my parents did… Not that I don’t get paid well… but it just seems like there are so many more things to pay for these days. A primary example: my parents never had to worry about health insurance. Typically, it was 100% paid…. with virtually no out-of-pocket expenses. For me, every year, my health insurance premiums go up, and I have more and more out of pocket expenses for doctor’s visits. I think as a society, we have gotten so much to the point where we try to provide too much for the kids. Some of my fondest memories as a child, was getting together with the other neighborhood kids for a game of baseball, or football. I distinctly remember bolting out the door at an early hour, disappearing with my friends for hours…. sometimes not doing anything more then riding our bikes all over the neighborhood. There were no karate classes, no ballet lessons, no video games, no cable T.V., no CD’s, VHS tapes, DVD’s… etc…. Somehow, with these ‘limited’ activities… I had lots of fun. These days, if we suggest to our kids that they just ‘go outside and find something to do’ (a favorite quote from my mother) we’re somehow ‘bad’ parents. If this is true, then I’d have to say that 90% of my parents generation were ‘bad’ parents. My parents made it a point to tell me that no one owed me anything in this life, and that if I wanted something… I had to work for it. I sometimes think that we’re teaching our kids these days, that you’re ‘owed’ a good life… and if you can’t get it yourself, then someone else ‘owes it’ to them….

Response:

they’re great, and we should all get to do whatever we want, but they are by no means absolutely necessary.

And I guess you’re the guy to decide what’s necessary to a kid and what isn’t. BTW, I also am not going to further participate in this thread because, even though I removed the other newsgroup from my headers when I replied, you put it back in.  I’ll choose what groups I participate in. Lauri in WA I like my email spamless

Response:

I didn’t realize, though, that karate lessons were a requirement for a happy childhood or a necessary lifestyle aspect critical to positive development.

Well, Dave I don’t know the ins and outs of your area but in my area and other areas I am familar with, kids *not* being involved in activities, sports, etc. have a major strike going against them. If they want to make a school  team they had better have experience or they will watching from the stands. If they don’t have a group they hang with, usually with a common interest ie: karate, they often end up with the less desirable crowd.   Don’t get me wrong, they’re great, and we should all get to do whatever we want, but they are by no means absolutely necessary.

Neither are birthday presents, a bike, and just about everything above food, shelter, an education and medical care. Although most parents want their kids to have more than what is absolutely necessary. Mrs Indyguy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. – Galileo Galilei

Response:

<snip to I think as a society, we have gotten so much to the point where we try to provide too much for the kids. Some of my fondest memories as a child, was getting together with the other neighborhood kids for a game of baseball, or football.

Problem with that is most other kids *are* at their ballet lesson, soccer practice, etc. and trying to get enough kids together for a game of baseball would be difficult at best, around these parts.  I distinctly remember bolting out the door at an early hour, disappearing with my friends for hours…. sometimes not doing anything more then riding our bikes all over the neighborhood.

LOL, we used to build forts in the empty lots in our nieghborhood. We’d take off in the AM show up for lunch and then be gone til dinner time. Too bad kids can’t do that any more.  There were no karate classes, no ballet lessons, no video games, no cable T.V., no CD’s, VHS tapes, DVD’s… etc…. Somehow, with these ‘limited’ activities… I had lots of fun.

I was a child in the 50’s and 60’s as much as I wish we could turn back the clock we can’t.  These days, if we suggest to our kids that they just ‘go outside and find something to do’ (a favorite quote from my mother) we’re somehow ‘bad’ parents. If this is true, then I’d have to say that 90% of my parents generation were ‘bad’ parents.

Oh I don’t think telling a child to go find something to do is equated to being a *bad parent*. We have a different world today. Just like kids didn’t have much more than a cardboard box and an imagination to have fun, they also only needed a HS diploma to be successful in a career. Like I said before, we live in a different world today. My parents made it a point to tell me that no one owed me anything in this life, and that if I wanted something… I had to work for it. I sometimes think that we’re teaching our kids these days, that you’re ‘owed’ a good life… and if you can’t get it yourself, then someone else ‘owes it’ to them….

That isn’t what I taught my children. I showed them what it is like to have a *nice* life. I gave them the tools they needed to be able to continue that life. I never taught them to depend on anyone other than themselves to get what they want in life. They know if they don’t get what they want they only have one person to blame and that is themselves. Mrs Indyguy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I appreciate your concern, and understand the desire to keep it in check, but there are times when crossposting is not only acceptable, it is preferable.  

Preferable to whom? Not to me. And I would appreciate it if, I have posted to only one group, that you not add groups into your reply to me. If I wanted to post to alt.child-support, I would. This is one of those times.  The topic is very relevant to both groups posted.  The other option, multi-posting, would result in fragmented conversations and make it much more difficult for anyone to follow.

No, it wouldn’t. You follow the thread in the group it is in. IME, most crossposted stuff only ends up in flames. There’s a reason, you know, why I don’t read and post in alt.child-support. Tracey

Response:

I appreciate your concern, and understand the desire to keep it in check, but there are times when crossposting is not only acceptable, it is preferable.   Preferable to whom? Not to me. And I would appreciate it if, I have posted to only one group, that you not add groups into your reply to me. If I wanted to post to alt.child-support, I would.

That’s no different from saying "I would appreciate it if, I have posted to TWO groups, that you not delete one of them in your reply to me."  After all, if I had not wanted to post to the other group, I wouldn’t have done so. This is one of those times.  The topic is very relevant to both groups posted.  The other option, multi-posting, would result in fragmented conversations and make it much more difficult for anyone to follow. No, it wouldn’t. You follow the thread in the group it is in. IME, most crossposted stuff only ends up in flames. There’s a reason, you know, why I don’t read and post in alt.child-support.

No, I don’t know. Do you want to discuss the topic, or not? — Jealousy is simply and clearly the fear that you do not have value. Jealousy scans for evidence to prove the point – that others will be preferred and rewarded more than you. ~ Jennifer James

Response:

Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement? (First, Dave, a personal request and I’m not trying to be newsgroup police here, but crossposting really sucks, IMO.)

I appreciate your concern, and understand the desire to keep it in check, but there are times when crossposting is not only acceptable, it is preferable.  This is one of those times.  The topic is very relevant to both groups posted.  The other option, multi-posting, would result in fragmented conversations and make it much more difficult for anyone to follow. http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/crospost.html I sure don’t believe that it’s an entitlement. At the same time, I also don’t believe that it’s fair and equitable for a child to live one lifestyle while his/her parents are married and then be expected to live a much lower one because his parents couldn’t/ wouldn’t stay married.

OK, back to the topic at hand.  I would agree that it is not fair to the child.  But, what is fair?  Is it fair to the adult for one lifestyle to go down drastically?  One person should not be placed above another, regardless of age. I question the practicality of the expectation.  If both parents make $60,000/yr and maintain one household, how is it possible for the same two people to make the same amount of money then maintain two households at the same level as before?  It’s just not realistic.  We shouldn’t deceive ourselves into thinking it is.  If the income split is something like 80/20, then the argument could be made for some kind of income distribution.  (if someone wants to argue "no money, ever", please start another thread).  But, if they both make about the same amount of money, then lifestyle will go down.  It has to.  Simple economics.  Is it the child’s fault?  No.  But, that’s life.  No one steps in and guarantees the lifestyle of that child if the parents do stay married. What happens if the father in a family loses his job and the only job he can find is four months later and 60% of what he is used to making? Where are the advocates of children’s lifestyle in demanding that that child’s lifestyle be mainatin at what it was previously, no matter what?  They ain’t there. I am not in any way suggesting that a child (or spouse) be expected to live in squalor, but the idea that a particular lifestyle is somehow an entitlement, is just plain unfair and wrong. — Jealousy is simply and clearly the fear that you do not have value. Jealousy scans for evidence to prove the point – that others will be preferred and rewarded more than you. ~ Jennifer James

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Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement?

(First, Dave, a personal request and I’m not trying to be newsgroup police here, but crossposting really sucks, IMO.) I sure don’t believe that it’s an entitlement. At the same time, I also don’t believe that it’s fair and equitable for a child to live one lifestyle while his/her parents are married and then be expected to live a *much* lower one because his parents couldn’t/ wouldn’t stay married. Tracey

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Whether the issue be spousal support or child support, in general, how does anyone come to the conclusion that a particular lifestyle is an entitlement? — Jealousy is simply and clearly the fear that you do not have value. Jealousy scans for evidence to prove the point – that others will be preferred and rewarded more than you. ~ Jennifer James

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Question:

I think the VAST majority of people in auditing are interested in auditing companies within GAAS and GAAP guidelines.  I personally think you overestimate the influence of the "cross seller" based on what I have seen in the industry. The vast majority of companies report their earnings fairly and the vast majority of audit firms across the US catch most, but not all, of the mistakes in the financial reporting process.  

I believe you believe that.  I’m sure you realize that I don’t. I am not alone.  Please see my next post, "New Fight Brewing Over Limits on Investor Suits " I fail to see it bringing a higher quality of people into the profession.

I will – eventually. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since when do lawyers issue audit opinions?  Lawyers are not supposed to be independent. I agree with your rebuttal, but this point about limiting auditors from going to work for a company that they audit for two years is a real sore spot for me.  First of all, I think it is unconstitutional to limit the opportunities for auditors.  Most people get jobs by networking.  It is just going to make it so we have a bunch of idiots doing auditing because the profession is going to become so unattractive that all of the quality people are going to get out of it.  I sure am. Unfortunately these events (Enron/AA) will increase audit fees.  It may also increase enough to attract solid auditors that wish to make auditing a career instead of a stepping stone to other things. Something that has caused idiots to stay in auditing because the smart ones have figured out how to get out of it.

Paul, you couldn’t have said it better. The same applies verbatim to internal audit, often abused as a stepping stone or planned to be a stepping stone by top management. Those stepping from one stone to the next generally take great care not to step on the feet of their future cronies. Your’s truly’s involvement in external audit has been severely impaired by his intent, actually carried out in mandates, to just do the job. One simple example: accounting standards and their application within the chosen and/or legally obligatory framework are not subject to negotiation between auditor and auditee. Auditees (at least here) are not seldom who ask things like, "How many standards can we simply disregard, e. g. segment reporting, and still get a qualified opinion instead of a disclaimer?" You will frequently find references in qualified IAS audit reports to a list of unfulfilled accounting standards in the notes. Chris, IMHO audit includes by definition a material component of police work. Whoever cannot or does not unreservedly and unequivocally say "yes" to this component should indeed change professions, if he can. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": assassination Panama Cocaine cracking SDI cryptographic NSA Serbian Iran

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are hoping that Sarbanes will do something to help the profession, you are out of luck.  He has another agenda and accountants do not get a seat at the table.  They might however attend as the main course. I know almost nothing about Sarbanes. The purity of his motive (or lack of) is not my point.  I’m interested in which way the wind is blowing.

With the Senate, motive and agendas are, and always have been, the whole show. Originally, the founders, set the Senate up to represent the states. The House of Representatives is the "people’s house."  When the Senate was switched from state appointment to popular election, they became the bought and paid for representatives of those who can afford to buy them.  If Sarbanes actually puts up something, a Senate Bill, you have to read it very carefully to see if it is a full employment act for lawyers.  Like Hollings, I believe they along with the large unions are his constituency.  If you do a google, I am pretty sure you will find all sorts of depressing things. If anything good is going to come out of Congress on this matter, it is going to have to start in the House of Representatives. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There will certainly be disruption and turmoil, but we already have disruption and turmoil. Big firm auditing has been largely captive to the "cross sellers" for a number of years. I would think that freedom to audit based on accounting and auditing principles would be very attractive to real auditors. I think the VAST majority of people in auditing are interested in auditing companies within GAAS and GAAP guidelines. I personally think you overestimate the influence of the "cross seller" based on what I have seen in the industry. The vast majority of companies report their earnings fairly and the vast majority of audit firms across the US catch most, but not all, of the mistakes in the financial reporting process. Are there exceptions and crooks in the industry? Sure. But name me any industry that doesn’t have crooks. I see this episode driving more good people out of accounting and I fail to see it bringing a higher quality of people into the profession.

Chris, you may have been fortunate to have worked in an environment which substantiated your above opinions. On the other hand, there is much publicly available evidence to suggest, in the case of Andersen, that a

Question:

I’m getting alot of November 2001 posts coming through on this newsgroup.  Anyone else experiencing this? This seems to be the only group it is happening on. "It’s God’s job to sort out what to do with terrorists.    It’s our job to deliver them to God. " I’m allergic to spam. Remove "No Spam" from my e-mail address to respond. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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I’m getting alot of November 2001 posts coming through on this newsgroup.  Anyone else experiencing this?

Not at the moment. But the reason for it, if it happens usually is that some rogue site gets its newsgroup messages’ expirys wrong, and/or tampers with them, and repushes those postings forward into the system. It is annoying. This seems to be the only group it is happening on.

This is not necessarily an affliction of a particular newsgroup. Such things happen and have happened on several newsgroups. I’m allergic to spam. Remove "No Spam" from my e-mail address to respond.

What "No Spam"? Incidentally, I do not need to remove it (even if it appeared) to respond. I would need it were I to email you.    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

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Our news server was doing the same thing on all groups for about a week. Then it was down for a day. When it came back up it had expired all history except the last two weeks on all newsgroups. We are trying to reach someone there to have the expiry pushed back at least 90 days but have not been able to find anyone aware of the problem. ……. John.-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m getting alot of November 2001 posts coming through on this newsgroup.  Anyone else experiencing this? This seems to be the only group it is happening on. "It’s God’s job to sort out what to do with terrorists.    It’s our job to deliver them to God. " I’m allergic to spam. Remove "No Spam" from my e-mail address to respond. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A women, who was a California CPA, and who had around three years of experience. Since the women who had the hiring authority had the same credentials, and was making I estimate $28k pa, I assume they were all very happy. I’ve seen that much offered for "CPA preferred, two to three years experience" here in California.  Further, I’ve seen it filled. Filled with what? easy2000

I suspect there are relevant facts that you aren’t sharing with us. easy2000

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My friend got his degree at a private lessor known college, but had a very good GPA of over 3.6. He only tried to find work in the northeast though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My friend graduated with a degree in accounting in early spring and is <<SNIP during tax season. When he did the math, it ended up that he would be getting around 5 dollars and 50 cents an hour for his 80 hour weeks. $5.50 x 80 hours = $440/week $440/week x 52 weeks/year = $22,880/year If $23k per year is the best offer your friend come up with I’d like to know where he got his degree, what his grade point average was, and where he was trying to find work. easy2000

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Ron, one thing that I did not mention was that my friend never interned while in college since he put himself thru school working full time at another job and going to school mostly at night. I’m sure that probably hurt his chances too, but with his schedule, there just wasn’t the time for an internship. I got on him about it once, telling him how important internships are, and another thing he bitched about was how MUCH an internship would have cost him. The career services person in his college guidance office tried to talk to him about internships, but the only ones they had were stuff that was unpaid or paid minimum wages. Plus, he would have had to cough up several thousand dollars and fork it over to the college for the intership credits. Right now he is also kicking himself for not taking one of those Becker Review Courses that help people prepare for the CPA test. I think he thinks passing this test will instantly make him more marketable with CPA firms. Ron, what other jobs in the accounting field do you think would be a better choice for my friend if he remains so determined to be in the field ? Are you saying public accounting is a total waste of time ? What about an acconting job in industry ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A women, who was a California CPA, and who had around three years of experience. Since the women who had the hiring authority had the same credentials, and was making I estimate $28k pa, I assume they were all very happy. I’ve seen that much offered for "CPA preferred, two to three years experience" here in California.  Further, I’ve seen it filled. Filled with what? easy2000 — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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Where would I find the "various test results" that you speak of? If I were doing the research, I would first do some internet searches to get a general scope, then I would go to a research library and start digging.  I would probably start with general research sources and then move on to more specialized tools.

So, after saying in an earlier post, "However, if you look at the test results.." you admit that as far as you know, no such test results exist. Interesting debate style you have there. easy2000

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No, I’m quite positive studies have been done in that subject.  AIR, the area was being beat to death when I lasted looked at it over thirty years ago.  I’m sure the information is there, and if anyone is interested they can dig it up. Back on topic.  If any student used the research tools he was supposed to pick up in High School, and used them to investigate the merits of a career in Accounting, I am positive that he would come to the same conclusion I have.  I have noticed this comment from profs before, that is that students will just not do the research anymore.  Just look at some of the questions you get on these news groups, simple index lookups. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where would I find the "various test results" that you speak of? If I were doing the research, I would first do some internet searches to get a general scope, then I would go to a research library and start digging.  I would probably start with general research sources and then move on to more specialized tools. So, after saying in an earlier post, "However, if you look at the test results.." you admit that as far as you know, no such test results exist. Interesting debate style you have there. easy2000

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

That is why most states have experience requirements for licensure. GAAP is not something that can be truly learned from a book. It is only when an accountant faces the reality of applying GAAP that real knowledge and understanding seep in.

More the point–it’s when you are face to face with the *consequences* of applying it that you truly begin to understand it.  Textbook GAAP presents few tough choices–real life GAAP presents a number of them, including the reality of facing pressure to ignore "troublesome" parts of GAAP when a client or those above you has a particular "target" number in mind.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – obtained.  However, I want a total knowledge of GAAP. … Buy a book and study it. Didn’t I do that in college? I learned (not just memorized) a lot more in my 7 months as an auditor than I did in my 4 semesters of technical/financial accounting.

That is why most states have experience requirements for licensure. GAAP is not something that can be truly learned from a book. It is only when an accountant faces the reality of applying GAAP that real knowledge and understanding seep in. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

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… Because, ta dah, that is the type of personality that is attracted to public accounting versus the types that are attracted to corporate accounting.  If you review the various test results I am sure you will find they deviate significantly from the norms.  However, if you look at the test results of those people who started in something else and then switched to public accounting, say after thirty, I believe you will find them much closer, if not right on, the norms. Where would I find the "various test results" that you speak of?

If I were doing the research, I would first do some internet searches to get a general scope, then I would go to a research library and start digging.  I would probably start with general research sources and then move on to more specialized tools. obtained.  However, I want a total knowledge of GAAP. … Buy a book and study it. Didn’t I do that in college?

No one studies GAAP near thoroughly enough in college.  Everyone has to buy and closely read the books continuously.  Learning never stops. I learned (not just memorized) a lot more in my 7 months as an auditor than I did in my 4 semesters of technical/financial accounting.

Actually, most (when I say most I mean more than 50%) public auditors get such a narrow view of the world I doubt if 7 months of commercial experience could even be called the tip of the iceberg. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Just for the record my resume was edited and revised by an employee of Robert Half, who also happened to have a past history as an editor. … Why are they different people? Because, ta dah, that is the type of personality that is attracted to public accounting versus the types that are attracted to corporate accounting.  If you review the various test results I am sure you will find they deviate significantly from the norms.  However, if you look at the test results of those people who started in something else and then switched to public accounting, say after thirty, I believe you will find them much closer, if not right on, the norms.

Where would I find the "various test results" that you speak of? obtained.  However, I want a total knowledge of GAAP. … Buy a book and study it.

Didn’t I do that in college?   I learned (not just memorized) a lot more in my 7 months as an auditor than I did in my 4 semesters of technical/financial accounting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

<snip I have learned a lesson.  There is no loyalty in the corporate world. Understand that, and you will be better off in life.

After saying that would you (or anyone else) recommend that I leave my current position, which I have held for a little over a month, in December so that I can go back to public to get as much out of it as I can and then move forward? Unloyal, Jen

Response:

… Just for the record my resume was edited and revised by an employee of Robert Half, who also happened to have a past history as an editor. … Why are they different people?

Because, ta dah, that is the type of personality that is attracted to public accounting versus the types that are attracted to corporate accounting.  If you review the various test results I am sure you will find they deviate significantly from the norms.  However, if you look at the test results of those people who started in something else and then switched to public accounting, say after thirty, I believe you will find them much closer, if not right on, the norms. … obtained.  However, I want a total knowledge of GAAP.

… Buy a book and study it. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

Please know I am rather limited to the career trends in accounting but having dealt with it lately so I would like to comment…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My friend graduated with a degree in accounting in early spring and is still looking for a job. I keep telling him that he doesn’t necesarily have to work in the accounting field, as he is quite apt with computers. I keep hearing this story.  You might mention to him that it is much easier to change into a lucrative field right out of school than it is after he has committed years to the career.  You might also mention to him that it is easier to find a job when your working, than it is when you are not.  Most employers have a primitive and quite defective, pack mentality, something to do with if your not working there has to be something wrong with you.

I don’t think this is true for individuals who have just graduated. When I graduated last May, I had a position already but I had interviewed in the fall.  If your friend is looking for a job today or within the past few weeks he will be unable to find a public accounting job rather easily.  I am hoping (as I am in a similar position) that if he waits until December the market for entry level staff accountants at CPA firms will be better.  There is however a downcurve on the people being hired by CPA firms.  He should try to use the career center of the university he graduated from. But he seems hell-bent on working as an accountant, and thinks working in public accounting is the best way to go. But he was very disappointed at the job offer he got in early winter from a public accounting firm. It is not a good idea to be firmly set on a career goal that isn’t going to pay off in the future.  I admit I was quite foolish in going through all the hoops to get a CPA license, which has now proven to be close to worthless.  If he wasn’t given a choice job in public accounting right out of school (the "picked boys" almost always get internships while in school), he probably has no real future in it.

That may be true.  Although if he wants to be a CPA forever I would definitely hang in there and try for the smaller firms in December. The salary they offerred to pay was OK for 40 hour a week work. But they told him straight off that he would be working 80 hour weeks all during tax season. When he did the math, it ended up that he would be getting around 5 dollars and 50 cents an hour for his 80 hour weeks. That is the historical norm.

Not anymore, when I started in public last september I was making equal to the staff who had two more years of experience as me as it is very hard to find the right people to work as staff in cpa firms. He was really stunned, and even I was pissed off since he would be barely making minimum wage. I told him not to take the job, and he agreed. But now he is still looking. Unfortunately, that shows to the pack mentality that he really doesn’t have the "what ever it is" they value that indicates a good employee. It will probably turn up as a negative for him, forever.

It all depends on his resume and what he did in college.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Accountants, being people, don’t act rationally.  If they were rational, they would act as a meritocracy.  They don’t and never have.  I think he should decide what he really wants, and go with flow that is necessary to get it. All of his friends who landed public accounting jobs ended up in similiar conditions to the job offer he rejected. Very long hours which meant that the meager salary they were paying translated into 5 or 6 bucks an hour. One girl was worked like a dog thru tax season only to be dumped by the firm in May when there was less work. Is this even legal ? Seems like it is, if it isn’t I haven’t heard of anyone succeeding with a FLSA case against a CPA firm.  There is a move to change it in California.  I recall the year I worked for a California CPA, in 1977, he was very scrupulous about paying me overtime for work over eight hours a day and forty a week.  But that was him, and he hired me and was paying me through a shell company.  (Actually it was a great idea, if he had really pushed it he could have given Kelly Girl a run for the money.)

Yes it is very brutal and there may be ways around it.  But there is a total value in the fact that you have worked in a public firm to those in private.  It takes a certain type of individual to learn as quickly as auditors do and work as hard as necessary.  Did I have a life during busy season?  A little.  I didn’t mind though as I was given responsibilites and able to learn so many things that I am grateful I did work as hard as I did. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How can accounting firms get away with not paying overtime to workers who put in 80 hour weeks so the partners can buy another Lexus or that new house in the hamptons ? I imagine its a combination of FLSA exemption and most states also exempting, for point one.  IMHO (and that of others) The second issue has kind of been, if you complain, we won’t hire you, if we don’t hire you, you will not be able to qualify as a CPA. Kind of a form of extortion to get cheap labor.  The California Bar came around to this conclusion some years back and eliminated the indentured servitude period for lawyers before they could be admitted to the bar.  Hence, California legislatures have not been to cosey to the current CPA work experience requirement and, they have changed it quite a bit for the new proposed accountancy act. Is this why there is so much turnover in public accounting ? I think you would get many opinions on that one.  I’ve yet to meet a CPA in public practice that I would feel comfortable working for.  Strange, I meet Controllers and Government accountants, have worked for them and, in general, find them a great bunch of people.  I have not gotten that good feeling with the public accountants I’ve met, especially the ones in multi partner firms.  I think they are a different people. YMMV

Why are they different people? There is so much turnover as it is not a lifestyle to have forever if you do want a life outside of work and still be a good employee. After being in public for 7 months and now in private.  I am kicking myself for making such a bad decision to just up and quit so I could move.  I loved auditing and public accounting and the knowledge I obtained.  However, I want a total knowledge of GAAP.  Currently, in private I am pigeonholed to learn about strictly revenue where I feel I could be learning much more if an auditor.  It depends on your friends career goals… Happy to Help! Jennifer

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Public accounting is the only professional environment I have ever worked in.  For the most part, I had a great experience and don’t regret it.   However, in terms of pay and hours worked, the return was pretty poor.  The profession CAN be rewarding though both financially and intellectually. IMO though, the odds are better in other fields.  Best of luck.

I appreciate the insight you give.  One point I would mention, though, is that even in "public accounting" there’s a lot of variation, and much of it will not be seen from inside the Big 5.  One thing to remember is that the Big 5 knows they are a kind of "seal of approval" for those that want to jump into industry, so they are aware that many want to get into their ranks solely to put in their time for experience, get the CPA and then be able to say they are a former Big 5 accountant. Note that most of the long time accountants that post here are either sole practitioners or partners in very small local firms.  That life is very different from that faced by Big 5 members and most enter it in order to take full control of their own professional life (something that’s really not possible even at partner level in a large firm).  It also means, for those that start their own firms, that you don’t wait around for someone to "promote" you to partnership level–you just do it yourself. As a practical matter, I suspect the odds are against you, long term, in any field, if you are motivated solely by money (or, to put it better, if you let that show).  Some will succeed in a huge way in virtually every field, and those that "beat the odds" will generally be a special group that was determined to pursue that field, period. You may call them lucky (and luck can play a part), but you have to be in position to take advantage of that luck and recognize the opportunity when it comes forward.

Response:

Can I get your advice ? Is Public Accounting worth it ?

Well Mike here is my take on accounting having observed the profession from the inside for 6 years. My background:  I spent 6 years with a Big 5, in the northeast, within the International Tax Consulting practice.  I started as a Staff I, and made it to Manager before I quit recently to go back and get my MBA full time in the fall.  I’m never going back to a Big 5.  Although I am NOT a CPA or tax attorney (it’s a long story), I have worked above/below/side by side with CPA’s so I think I have a good perspective about the profession. For someone coming out of school, I think accounting is a poor track to pursue given the opportunities that do exist (and will be born) in the IT world, especially for someone who has a knack with technology.  Your friend really needs to differentiate between ‘public accounting’ versus wanting a CPA.  Most people go into public accounting to get their CPA, add a public firm to their resume, and transition into industry.  FEW people make it a career.  I can tell you a lotta great friends in my firm who worked hard got fired or burned out for whatever reasons.  Often times, it ain’t pretty. If your friend wants to enter public accounting to work his way up and be one of the few and proud Partners, then he is disillusioned.  It takes more than just hard work to get there, it takes a lotta luck as well.  Of course the payoff can be huge.  But the truth is, 99.9999% of the people I worked with had NO thoughts of making partner.  It’s just that tough.  Nobody sticks around in ‘middle management’ for the long term in public because the realtively low pay and tough workload provides no incentive to do so unless you are on the inside track to partner.   Now if your friend is looking to get into public accounting with the idea that he is going to get a CPA and network his way into industry, well that’s a different story.  In the big picture, accountants will always be needed and I personally think that accounting is as good a bet as any profession to   reach a middle class lifestyle.  It’s a skilled trade, and quite frankly there are a lot of average accountants out there, so if you are above average you can do OK.  Note I said OK, not necessarily real good.  All public firms pay shitty at the entry level so he has to suck it up.  The basic logic behind this insanity is that the Partners went through that hell so ‘if it’s good enough for me, it’s good enough for you’.   In industry, the hours are GENERALLY fairly stable with the exception of the ‘busy season’ where your friend would probably have to work Saturdays and some OT during the week.  Personally I think the work in industry can get mindless and monotanous (which is why many people try a 2nd shot in public accounting after quitting), but if you hook up with the right company at the right time, then in the long term your financial security could be as good as any C programmer, and the work could be interesting. A CPA friend of mine hooked up with EMC years ago and in the long term, he’s gonna be just fine.   I’m generalizing here, but you get my point. So I think you need to ask your friend why he TRULY wants to go into public accounting.  IMO, the opportunities in the tech field to make good money with less hell makes it a better avenue in the long term.  Furthermore, your friend can always take a leave of absence from the accounting industry and try tech for 1-2 years.  If he’s young, he’s got time on his side and it would be foolish to dive into accounting if he has the skills to go elsewhere. Public accounting is the only professional environment I have ever worked in.  For the most part, I had a great experience and don’t regret it.   However, in terms of pay and hours worked, the return was pretty poor.  The profession CAN be rewarding though both financially and intellectually. IMO though, the odds are better in other fields.  Best of luck.

Response:

Before I migrated to California in 1992, I was a CPA in the Philippines with my own public practice company with multiple clients handling accounting, auditing & taxation. When I arrived in California, I faced the reality of the sad truth that I have to start all over again.  Nobody would hire me even as an accounting clerk because I don’t have any "local experience". I wound up working in McDonalds as a cashier to survive, moving on to Target also as a cashier.  I kept my mouth shut & never complained, while never stopping to look for better opportunities.  After 6 months of cashiering work, someone finally hired me as an accounting clerk because my asking rate was cheap (miminum wage)  You could just imagine how hard was it to survive.  Long story short, after 4 more different companies in 2 years time, I was finally the comptroller for a middle size company in SF. I gave up the dream of becoming a CPA in the US for the reason that I don’t want to start all over again.  To get my license, I have to have a CPA "boss" for my work experiences to be valid.  3 years in public practice of 5 years in private accounting. I never had that opportunity. Moving to GA in 1996 to be with my husband, I opened my own company in 1996. I do all bookkeeping / write-ups & FS preparation & NEVER rendering professional opinions & making professional advice (I don’t want to be sued) I work with my client’s CPA make sure that I make them happy by supplying them with a clean & complete FS every year end, and most of all I make my clients happy by doing all the ground work at a cheaper rate than they use to pay their CPA staff to do. Right now, I am planning on taking the EA exam so that I could provide more service to my clients. I think my point is, sometimes, especially for a new graduate, you have to start somewhere & don’t stop looking for a better opportunity.  My first two years in US was very humbling but it thought me a LOT of valuable lessons about life in general. Vivian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My friend graduated with a degree in accounting in early spring and is still looking for a job. I keep telling him that he doesn’t necesarily have to work in the accounting field, as he is quite apt with computers. But he seems hell-bent on working as an accountant, and thinks working in public accounting is the best way to go. But he was very disappointed at the job offer he got in early winter from a public accounting firm. The salary they offerred to pay was OK for 40 hour a week work. But they told him straight off that he would be working 80 hour weeks all during tax season. When he did the math, it ended up that he would be getting around 5 dollars and 50 cents an hour for his 80 hour weeks. He was really stunned, and even I was pissed off since he would be barely making minimum wage. I told him not to take the job, and he agreed. But now he is still looking. All of his friends who landed public accounting jobs ended up in similiar conditions to the job offer he rejected. Very long hours which meant that the meager salary they were paying translated into 5 or 6 bucks an hour. One girl was worked like a dog thru tax season only to be dumped by the firm in May when there was less work. Is this even legal ? How can accounting firms get away with not paying overtime to workers who put in 80 hour weeks so the partners can buy another Lexus or that new house in the hamptons ? Is this why there is so much turnover in public accounting ? I’m trying to get my friend to forget the field and go where his labors will be appreciated. Can I get your advice ? Is Public Accounting worth it ? Here’s a story that shows what the public accounting world entails.  I worked for an accounting firm that along with another accounting firm in the same city was eaten up by a large regional firm.  Both firms moved into another place.  As anyone with computer experience knows, networking problems pop up like mad during the setting up phase.  The guy in charge of the setting up was employed with my firm for the past six years.  He worked some very long hours for around two weeks handling the issues involved with the network for the new place.  He has a heart condition in which high levels of stress would cause him to become ill.  On top of the long hours he put in, stress was a big factor.  He became ill and was put into a hospital.  He was pretty much out of it for around three weeks.  The day after he got out of the hospital, he received a letter of termination.  He essentially got two weeks severance and nothing else. Another example of this act of kindness was when a new graduate who entered one of the acquired firms in January got fired in May.  If anyone has been through a tax season, you know that most of the value they receive out of you for the year comes during the tax season.  You work long hours with no extra compensation. I’ve gotten used to the fact that you have to be a pretty cold, heartless person to succeed in large public accounting firms.  Most of the people who work in my firms are stiffs.  The ones who aren’t stiffs have no intentions of making working here a long term goal. I have learned a lesson.  There is no loyalty in the corporate world. Understand that, and you will be better off in life.

Response:

My friend got his degree at a private lessor known college, but had a very good GPA of over 3.6. He only tried to find work in the northeast though.

How restrictive was he on the areas in the Northeast that he would accept?  That is, are we talking the entire Northeast (from Maine down the coast through, let’s say, Maryland) or a subset of the area? While 3.6 is a decent GPA, it’s not one that by itself is going to make his application stand out, at least based on the resumes that I’ve seen.  It certainly isn’t one that will disqualify him immediately from most positions, but it also won’t create a "it’s time to go grab this guy" response either, especially if the decision maker doesn’t recognize the institution in question.   The lack of an internship program or various other indicators of going "beyond the classroom" for accounting background is more likely to be treated as negative by the larger firms.  The "working your way through college" story, however, will play well with certain individuals at local firms.  Even better–can we discern these facts from his resume?   Has he received many interview requests but few offers afterwards?  Or has his problem been that he’s not getting many requests for interviews?  If the former, we may need to worry about his interview technique.  If the latter, then it makes sense to look into his resume. Even in the hottest job market, for any particular position the vast majority of applicants will not get a particular job.  That is, unless you are the *ONLY* applicant, most likely you are competing with someone else for that position (or. more likely, a group of someone elses), and there’s a decision maker that has to work with limited information on which to make that decision.  The key for your friend is to determine why he is always, at best, coming in second place for the positions he wants.

Response:

Ron, one thing that I did not mention was that my friend never interned while in college since he put himself thru school working full time at another job and going to school mostly at night. I’m sure that probably hurt his chances too, but with his schedule, there just wasn’t the time for an internship.

Strange, people always told me that working your way through school was almost a guarantee of a job.  I did not find that it helped me.  I recall being told I hadn’t worked my way through school with the "right" jobs. There is a psycho neurotic "games people play" called now you have violated the secret rules and have to go back to square one.  If you you pay attentions you can identify the people who play it, and others pretty quickly.   I got on him about it once, telling him how important internships are, and another thing he bitched about was how MUCH an internship would have cost him. The career services person in his college guidance office tried to talk to him about internships, but the only ones they had were stuff that was unpaid or paid minimum wages. Plus, he would have had to cough up several thousand dollars and fork it over to the college for the intership credits.

Originally I thought internships were a great idea.  We didn’t have them when I went through school.  Since first hearing about them, I’ve heard pro and con on internships.  People who got jobs loved them, people who didn’t didn’t.  I haven’t read anything authoritative on them.   Right now he is also kicking himself for not taking one of those Becker Review Courses that help people prepare for the CPA test. I think he thinks passing this test will instantly make him more marketable with CPA firms.

I’ve heard both ways on that also.  I have not read anything authoritative. Ron, what other jobs in the accounting field do you think would be a better choice for my friend if he remains so determined to be in the field ?

I honestly don’t know, I’ve got over twenty years of experience and I haven’t been able to get a job offer in six years.  If you hear about anything I would appreciate your passing it along after you tell your friend. Are you saying public accounting is a total waste of time ?

Once I thought it was quite valuable.  Now, unless you can get a shoe in to partner or three years with a national, I think it is basically a waste of ones life.  Now, that is based on the premise that you can get into Public Accounting. I seem to recall the year I graduated they only hired one out of my college and that was because one of the professors still had a personal relationship with some partners at Hasken & Sells. I’ve been told they hire even less nowadays. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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No, that’s about all I remember in the two situations.   Since by what you are saying, you are claiming that the location you are in pays much more than here in California for an accountant, would you please identify this area.  Inquiring minds want to know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A women, who was a California CPA, and who had around three years of experience. Since the women who had the hiring authority had the same credentials, and was making I estimate $28k pa, I assume they were all very happy. I’ve seen that much offered for "CPA preferred, two to three years experience" here in California.  Further, I’ve seen it filled. Filled with what? easy2000 I suspect there are relevant facts that you aren’t sharing with us. easy2000

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

Hello, My friend graduated with a degree in accounting in early spring and is still looking for a job. I keep telling him that he doesn’t necesarily have to work in the accounting field, as he is quite apt with computers. But he seems hell-bent on working as an accountant, and thinks working in public accounting is the best way to go. But he was very disappointed at the job offer he got in early winter from a public accounting firm. The salary they offerred to pay was OK for 40 hour a week work. But they told him straight off that he would be working 80 hour weeks all during tax season. When he did the math, it ended up that he would be getting around 5 dollars and 50 cents an hour for his 80 hour weeks. He was really stunned, and even I was pissed off since he would be barely making minimum wage. I told him not to take the job, and he agreed. But now he is still looking. All of his friends who landed public accounting jobs ended up in similiar conditions to the job offer he rejected. Very long hours which meant that the meager salary they were paying translated into 5 or 6 bucks an hour. One girl was worked like a dog thru tax season only to be dumped by the firm in May when there was less work. Is this even legal ? How can accounting firms get away with not paying overtime to workers who put in 80 hour weeks so the partners can buy another Lexus or that new house in the hamptons ? Is this why there is so much turnover in public accounting ? I’m trying to get my friend to forget the field and go where his labors will be appreciated. Can I get your advice ? Is Public Accounting worth it ?

Response:

Hello, My friend graduated with a degree in accounting in early spring and is

<<SNIP during tax season. When he did the math, it ended up that he would be getting around 5 dollars and 50 cents an hour for his 80 hour weeks.

$5.50 x 80 hours = $440/week $440/week x 52 weeks/year = $22,880/year If $23k per year is the best offer your friend come up with I’d like to know where he got his degree, what his grade point average was, and where he was trying to find work. easy2000

Response:

Hello, My friend graduated with a degree in accounting in early spring and is still looking for a job. I keep telling him that he doesn’t necesarily have to work in the accounting field, as he is quite apt with computers.

I keep hearing this story.  You might mention to him that it is much easier to change into a lucrative field right out of school than it is after he has committed years to the career.  You might also mention to him that it is easier to find a job when your working, than it is when you are not.  Most employers have a primitive and quite defective, pack mentality, something to do with if your not working there has to be something wrong with you. But he seems hell-bent on working as an accountant, and thinks working in public accounting is the best way to go. But he was very disappointed at the job offer he got in early winter from a public accounting firm.

It is not a good idea to be firmly set on a career goal that isn’t going to pay off in the future.  I admit I was quite foolish in going through all the hoops to get a CPA license, which has now proven to be close to worthless.  If he wasn’t given a choice job in public accounting right out of school (the "picked boys" almost always get internships while in school), he probably has no real future in it. The salary they offerred to pay was OK for 40 hour a week work. But they told him straight off that he would be working 80 hour weeks all during tax season. When he did the math, it ended up that he would be getting around 5 dollars and 50 cents an hour for his 80 hour weeks.

That is the historical norm. He was really stunned, and even I was pissed off since he would be barely making minimum wage. I told him not to take the job, and he agreed. But now he is still looking.

Unfortunately, that shows to the pack mentality that he really doesn’t have the "what ever it is" they value that indicates a good employee. It will probably turn up as a negative for him, forever. Accountants, being people, don’t act rationally.  If they were rational, they would act as a meritocracy.  They don’t and never have.  I think he should decide what he really wants, and go with flow that is necessary to get it. All of his friends who landed public accounting jobs ended up in similiar conditions to the job offer he rejected. Very long hours which meant that the meager salary they were paying translated into 5 or 6 bucks an hour. One girl was worked like a dog thru tax season only to be dumped by the firm in May when there was less work. Is this even legal ?

Seems like it is, if it isn’t I haven’t heard of anyone succeeding with a FLSA case against a CPA firm.  There is a move to change it in California.  I recall the year I worked for a California CPA, in 1977, he was very scrupulous about paying me overtime for work over eight hours a day and forty a week.  But that was him, and he hired me and was paying me through a shell company.  (Actually it was a great idea, if he had really pushed it he could have given Kelly Girl a run for the money.) How can accounting firms get away with not paying overtime to workers who put in 80 hour weeks so the partners can buy another Lexus or that new house in the hamptons ?

I imagine its a combination of FLSA exemption and most states also exempting, for point one.  IMHO (and that of others) The second issue has kind of been, if you complain, we won’t hire you, if we don’t hire you, you will not be able to qualify as a CPA. Kind of a form of extortion to get cheap labor.  The California Bar came around to this conclusion some years back and eliminated the indentured servitude period for lawyers before they could be admitted to the bar.  Hence, California legislatures have not been to cosey to the current CPA work experience requirement and, they have changed it quite a bit for the new proposed accountancy act. Is this why there is so much turnover in public accounting ?

I think you would get many opinions on that one.  I’ve yet to meet a CPA in public practice that I would feel comfortable working for.  Strange, I meet Controllers and Government accountants, have worked for them and, in general, find them a great bunch of people.  I have not gotten that good feeling with the public accountants I’ve met, especially the ones in multi partner firms.  I think they are a different people. YMMV I’m trying to get my friend to forget the field and go where his labors will be appreciated.

It is hard to give advice.  Everyone has to make up their own mind.  If I new then what I know now, I would not have done it.  I would have gone into something else. YMMV   Good luck to your friend. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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A women, who was a California CPA, and who had around three years of experience. Since the women who had the hiring authority had the same credentials, and was making I estimate $28k pa, I assume they were all very happy. I’ve seen that much offered for "CPA preferred, two to three years experience" here in California.  Further, I’ve seen it filled. Filled with what? easy2000

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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I’ve seen that much offered for "CPA preferred, two to three years experience" here in California.  Further, I’ve seen it filled.

Filled with what? easy2000

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My friend graduated with a degree in accounting in early spring and is still looking for a job. I keep telling him that he doesn’t necesarily have to work in the accounting field, as he is quite apt with computers. But he seems hell-bent on working as an accountant, and thinks working in public accounting is the best way to go. But he was very disappointed at the job offer he got in early winter from a public accounting firm. The salary they offerred to pay was OK for 40 hour a week work. But they told him straight off that he would be working 80 hour weeks all during tax season. When he did the math, it ended up that he would be getting around 5 dollars and 50 cents an hour for his 80 hour weeks. He was really stunned, and even I was pissed off since he would be barely making minimum wage. I told him not to take the job, and he agreed. But now he is still looking. All of his friends who landed public accounting jobs ended up in similiar conditions to the job offer he rejected. Very long hours which meant that the meager salary they were paying translated into 5 or 6 bucks an hour. One girl was worked like a dog thru tax season only to be dumped by the firm in May when there was less work. Is this even legal ? How can accounting firms get away with not paying overtime to workers who put in 80 hour weeks so the partners can buy another Lexus or that new house in the hamptons ? Is this why there is so much turnover in public accounting ? I’m trying to get my friend to forget the field and go where his labors will be appreciated. Can I get your advice ? Is Public Accounting worth it ?

Here’s a story that shows what the public accounting world entails.  I worked for an accounting firm that along with another accounting firm in the same city was eaten up by a large regional firm.  Both firms moved into another place.  As anyone with computer experience knows, networking problems pop up like mad during the setting up phase.  The guy in charge of the setting up was employed with my firm for the past six years.  He worked some very long hours for around two weeks handling the issues involved with the network for the new place.  He has a heart condition in which high levels of stress would cause him to become ill.  On top of the long hours he put in, stress was a big factor.  He became ill and was put into a hospital.  He was pretty much out of it for around three weeks.  The day after he got out of the hospital, he received a letter of termination.  He essentially got two weeks severance and nothing else. Another example of this act of kindness was when a new graduate who entered one of the acquired firms in January got fired in May.  If anyone has been through a tax season, you know that most of the value they receive out of you for the year comes during the tax season.  You work long hours with no extra compensation. I’ve gotten used to the fact that you have to be a pretty cold, heartless person to succeed in large public accounting firms.  Most of the people who work in my firms are stiffs.  The ones who aren’t stiffs have no intentions of making working here a long term goal. I have learned a lesson.  There is no loyalty in the corporate world. Understand that, and you will be better off in life.

Response:

I’ve seen that much offered for "CPA preferred, two to three years experience" here in California.  Further, I’ve seen it filled. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, My friend graduated with a degree in accounting in early spring and is <<SNIP during tax season. When he did the math, it ended up that he would be getting around 5 dollars and 50 cents an hour for his 80 hour weeks. $5.50 x 80 hours = $440/week $440/week x 52 weeks/year = $22,880/year If $23k per year is the best offer your friend come up with I’d like to know where he got his degree, what his grade point average was, and where he was trying to find work. easy2000

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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Question:

Is this thing still working?  I haven’t received any new mail from here in a few days. — * Roger Bird, Accounting Supervisor * ATS Reliance Technical Group * Toronto, Ontario

Response:

Is this thing still working?  I haven’t received any new mail from here in a few days.

Works again, from monday. It was down for some reason in the weekend. — Mikko Niskanen Raisio, Finland

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Question:

Do you have the need for a Windows based Fixed Asset program which incorporates:   *  Virtually Unlimited Capacity of up to 10,000 Assets   *  Multiple Asset Books for Numerous Companies   *  Total Flexibility   *  Book and Tax (Federal, State, & Local) Basis

COOL!  Can you post a listing of the federal depreciation types that your product can handle?   MACRS etc. and does it maintain ALT MIN also, federally tax compliant? Thanks Todd

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have the need for a Windows based Fixed Asset program which incorporates:   *  Virtually Unlimited Capacity of up to 10,000 Assets   *  Multiple Asset Books for Numerous Companies   *  Total Flexibility   *  Book and Tax (Federal, State, & Local) Basis COOL!  Can you post a listing of the federal depreciation types that your product can handle?   MACRS etc. and does it maintain ALT MIN also, federally tax compliant? Thanks Todd

Todd, In the Acceleration code one would select MACRS or ACRS, in the Depreciation System Code one would select ADS or GDS and within the Depreciation User code one would "enter" AMT etc.   WorthIT can do this but not automatically And Yes, WorthIT is federally tax compliant. If this sounds of interest let me know. Thanks for your inquiry, Bob

Response:

Do you have the need for a Windows based Fixed Asset program which incorporates:    *  Virtually Unlimited Capacity of up to 10,000 Assets    *  Multiple Asset Books for Numerous Companies    *  Total Flexibility    *  Book and Tax (Federal, State, & Local) Basis    *  Conversion Capability of Existing Asset Data    *  Customizable Report Contents and Formats    *  Export of Data to Excell Spreadsheet Format    *  Classification of Assets Down to the Cost Center Level    *  Technical Support    *  Turn-Key Installations and Training Available    *  Afforably Priced    *  30 Day Unconditional Satisfaction Guarantee For more information, or to receive a free 30 day trial of the product (not a limited demo) write me at: For more information regarding this product please respond to: R. Rothenberg Associates The Fixed Asset People Owned and Operated by a Professional Accountant http://www.angelfire.com/nj/fixedassets/ (un)

Response:

Do you have the need for a Windows based Fixed Asset program which incorporates    *  Virtually Unlimited Capacity of up to 10,000 Assets    *  Multiple Asset Books for Numerous Companies    *  Total Flexibility

I would first check the fixed assets forum and reviews of other software such as Best  http://www.electronicaccountant.com/

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Dean, You’re exactly right.  Why, on Earth, does someone write software with a limitation of "10,000" or "100,000" or even "1,000,000" assets?  When I see software with this type of limitation, I immediately steer my client the other way.  And under no circumstances would one of my software companies develop something off a poor design like that. To software developers:  WHY DO YOU INSIST ON BUILDING IN LIMITATIONS THAT WILL UNDOUBTEDLY COME BACK AND BITE YOU LATER ON?  Answer:  Amateur developers. To end users:  When you see software that allows "up to ??????" of anything (employees, customers, vendors, assets, etc., ) that ought to clue you that you’re dealing with amateur designers. Caveat Emptor. David Ray CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem I see here is that Intuite’s Fixed Asset has an unlimited compacity, not 10,000.  I would think your FoxPro would be more than that.  You would be suprised how many clients I have that would excede the 10,000 mark. Do you have the need for a Windows based Fixed Asset program which incorporates:    *  Virtually Unlimited Capacity of up to 10,000 Assets    *  Multiple Asset Books for Numerous Companies    *  Total Flexibility    *  Book and Tax (Federal, State, & Local) Basis    *  Conversion Capability of Existing Asset Data    *  Customizable Report Contents and Formats    *  Export of Data to Excell Spreadsheet Format    *  Classification of Assets Down to the Cost Center Level    *  Technical Support    *  Turn-Key Installations and Training Available    *  Afforably Priced    *  30 Day Unconditional Satisfaction Guarantee For more information, or to receive a free 30 day trial of the product (not a limited demo) write me at: Or, if you would prefer to outsource your fixed asset processing, as you may be doing with your payroll, we are pleased to announce the availability of this new service to the manufacturing community. For more information regarding this product please respond to: R. Rothenberg Associates The Fixed Asset People Owned and Operated by a Professional Accountant Bob Rothenberg P.O. Box 202 Hampton, NJ 08827 http://www.angelfire.com/nj/fixedassets/ (un) — Covey Accounting Service, L.L.C. http://www.coveyaccounting.com Your off site CFO for your tax, accounting, Peachtree and other software needs in Indiana. "Peachtree Software, makers of America’s best-selling multiuseraccounting solutions today with more than 5 million businesses strong!" ****Remove NO_SPAM to return a message.  We do not condone spamming, we do not support those who do.

Response:

Do you have the need for a Windows based Fixed Asset program which incorporates:    *  Virtually Unlimited Capacity of up to 10,000 Assets    *  Multiple Asset Books for Numerous Companies    *  Total Flexibility    *  Book and Tax (Federal, State, & Local) Basis    *  Conversion Capability of Existing Asset Data    *  Customizable Report Contents and Formats    *  Export of Data to Excell Spreadsheet Format    *  Classification of Assets Down to the Cost Center Level    *  Technical Support    *  Turn-Key Installations and Training Available    *  Afforably Priced    *  30 Day Unconditional Satisfaction Guarantee For more information, or to receive a free 30 day trial of the product (not a limited demo) write me at: Or, if you would prefer to outsource your fixed asset processing, as you may be doing with your payroll, we are pleased to announce the availability of this new service to the manufacturing community. For more information regarding this product please respond to: R. Rothenberg Associates The Fixed Asset People Owned and Operated by a Professional Accountant Bob Rothenberg P.O. Box 202 Hampton, NJ 08827 http://www.angelfire.com/nj/fixedassets/ (un)

Response:

The problem I see here is that Intuite’s Fixed Asset has an unlimited compacity, not 10,000.  I would think your FoxPro would be more than that.  You would be suprised how many clients I have that would excede the 10,000 mark. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have the need for a Windows based Fixed Asset program which incorporates:    *  Virtually Unlimited Capacity of up to 10,000 Assets    *  Multiple Asset Books for Numerous Companies    *  Total Flexibility    *  Book and Tax (Federal, State, & Local) Basis    *  Conversion Capability of Existing Asset Data    *  Customizable Report Contents and Formats    *  Export of Data to Excell Spreadsheet Format    *  Classification of Assets Down to the Cost Center Level    *  Technical Support    *  Turn-Key Installations and Training Available    *  Afforably Priced    *  30 Day Unconditional Satisfaction Guarantee For more information, or to receive a free 30 day trial of the product (not a limited demo) write me at: Or, if you would prefer to outsource your fixed asset processing, as you may be doing with your payroll, we are pleased to announce the availability of this new service to the manufacturing community. For more information regarding this product please respond to: R. Rothenberg Associates The Fixed Asset People Owned and Operated by a Professional Accountant Bob Rothenberg P.O. Box 202 Hampton, NJ 08827 http://www.angelfire.com/nj/fixedassets/ (un)

– Covey Accounting Service, L.L.C. http://www.coveyaccounting.com Your off site CFO for your tax, accounting, Peachtree and other software needs in Indiana. "Peachtree Software, makers of America’s best-selling multiuseraccounting solutions today with more than 5 million businesses strong!" ****Remove NO_SPAM to return a message.  We do not condone spamming, we do not support those who do.

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Question:

I

Question:

I truely don’t understand these news groups.  How is it that I ask an appropriate question concerning accounting and it dissapears after a day but I otherwise see these offending spam messages stay on for days. Why?

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|I truely don’t understand these news groups.  How is it that I ask an |appropriate question concerning accounting and it dissapears after a day |but I otherwise see these offending spam messages stay on for days. Why? | How long articles remain is dependent upon your IP.  Shouldn’t be any difference for a particular newsgroup unless someone was canceling articles, which is rare.  Netscape isn’t a particularly good newsreader.  Suggest you download a free copy  of Free Agent or WINV or other newsreader.  Agent and some others cost a few bucks.  If you need the download sites, Toucows is one of the best sites for free software.  I can post or email a URL if you need it.   J. Ime (Reverse letters in domain to respond)

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It has to do with two (usually) things. One is the setting in your computer’s browser about retaining read messages — most set it to delete after reading. The other is that spammers multiple post and you are frequently having the wonderful opportunity to read their message more than once for your benefit Dana

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Question:

There was only 1 inquiry about the Check Printing Accountant, and yet lots of people have posted about having writing difficulties. An illegible signature may be ok, but on a check the payee and amounts must be legible, as far as I know, as must what is being ordered, on a form. So now I’m really puzzled. Without a CPA, and if one doesn’t want to ask another person to fill out the check or form, what do folks with writing difficulties DO to write checks and order things?  (I have walking, writing, and talking probs, so do everything by mail.)  Cathe

Response:

Cathe, Re your appended posting: I don’t know about CPA but there is also a dynamite accounting/check writing program called QUICKEN–I have Quicken Deluxe version 4.0. Besides being an excellent accounting and finances program, it can produce printed "signed" checks on any kind of local printer you might have (dot matrix, inkject, bubblejet, laser; sheet feed or tractor feed). It also has the capability to schedule check writing, AND pay bills/write checks electronically. This last part can be used for regularly scheduled things like mortgage or loan payments, or irregular amounts/periods for stuff like charge card or other utility payments. The electronic payment part (which I haven’t used yet) is an extra-cost subscription that is handled through Compuserve (I think). But either way, you avoid the problem of legible payees/signatures/amounts, it automatically  adjusts your checking and payment records, and saves a lot of extra work that adds up in doing multiple tasks since it is effectively a single entry system. I was about to start having my house and utility bills paid electronically: mortagage, a standard monthly deduction on a predetermined date, utiliities charge to a credit card account, something new that Public Service of Colorado has just started; both are no-cost options. But I’m thinking about doing most of my bill paying electronically, along with an increasing number of possiblities for shopping. Depends on which is most cost-effective. Just some thoughts on alternatives to writing/signing checks, etc. Jeff jsh…@netcom.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->There was only 1 inquiry about the Check Printing Accountant, and yet lots >of people have posted about having writing difficulties. An illegible >signature may be ok, but on a check the payee and amounts must be legible, >as far as I know, as must what is being ordered, on a form. >So now I’m really puzzled. Without a CPA, and if one >doesn’t want to ask another person to fill out the check or form, >what do folks with writing difficulties DO to write checks and order >things?  (I have walking, writing, and talking probs, so do everything >by mail.)  Cathe

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