Question:

Let’s say Me and another guy go play a round of golf.  We are trying to bet an amount on each hole.  Let’s say $1 hole to make it easy.  We are playing a skins type match play.  I win a total of 11 holes and he wins a total of 7, each winning a couple carryovers. I was thinking that a win a total of 4 dollars(he gives me 11 and aI give him7).  His view is I win 11 dollars and he gets nothing.  It doesn’t matter to either of us about money because were trying to play with the pressure and not really for the money. Also if anybody has any tips on other ways which are fun and dont get to complicated for a pair of golfers. Thanks in advance. Jim

Response:

Jim… Take your friend’s $11 with a big smile. Actually you’re right, he only owes you $4, 11-7… very easy math. But if he insists… RJ … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say Me and another guy go play a round of golf.  We are trying to bet an amount on each hole.  Let’s say $1 hole to make it easy.  We are playing a skins type match play.  I win a total of 11 holes and he wins a total of 7, each winning a couple carryovers. I was thinking that a win a total of 4 dollars(he gives me 11 and aI give him7).  His view is I win 11 dollars and he gets nothing.  It doesn’t matter to either of us about money because were trying to play with the pressure and not really for the money. Also if anybody has any tips on other ways which are fun and dont get to complicated for a pair of golfers. Thanks in advance. Jim

Response:

Yep.  Me and two accountants took as long figurng out how to figure the winnings as we did to play!  But we did come up with a formula  Each person gets: (person’s skins x number of players) Minus (total skins). So for your 11 skins you get 22-18 = $4.  He has 7, so he gets (pays) 14-18 = -$4.  If you were playing with a third guy who got zero skins you would have made 33-18 = $15.  If you have more or less than 18 skins, the formula still works. Remember to use number of players, not number of opponents.  Looks simple but write it down and put it in your bag. Puttster

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say Me and another guy go play a round of golf.  We are trying to bet an amount on each hole.  Let’s say $1 hole to make it easy.  We are playing a skins type match play.  I win a total of 11 holes and he wins a total of 7, each winning a couple carryovers. I was thinking that a win a total of 4 dollars(he gives me 11 and aI give him7).  His view is I win 11 dollars and he gets nothing.  It doesn’t matter to either of us about money because were trying to play with the pressure and not really for the money. Also if anybody has any tips on other ways which are fun and dont get to complicated for a pair of golfers. Thanks in advance. Jim

Response:

The way my goup plays is relatively simple.. dime for a par quarter for a birdy 50 cents for eagle 5.00 for hole-in-one LOL                     You may increase the amounts if you so desire, ties do not pay off.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say Me and another guy go play a round of golf.  We are trying to bet an amount on each hole.  Let’s say $1 hole to make it easy.  We are playing a skins type match play.  I win a total of 11 holes and he wins a total of 7, each winning a couple carryovers. I was thinking that a win a total of 4 dollars(he gives me 11 and aI give him7).  His view is I win 11 dollars and he gets nothing.  It doesn’t matter to either of us about money because were trying to play with the pressure and not really for the money. Also if anybody has any tips on other ways which are fun and dont get to complicated for a pair of golfers. Thanks in advance. Jim

Response:

anybody know what a nassau is?  I’ve seen that term in relation to golf betting but don’t know what it means? thanks Tony

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say Me and another guy go play a round of golf.  We are trying to bet an amount on each hole.  Let’s say $1 hole to make it easy.  We are playing a skins type match play.  I win a total of 11 holes and he wins a total of 7, each winning a couple carryovers. I was thinking that a win a total of 4 dollars(he gives me 11 and aI give him7).  His view is I win 11 dollars and he gets nothing.  It doesn’t matter to either of us about money because were trying to play with the pressure and not really for the money. Also if anybody has any tips on other ways which are fun and dont get to complicated for a pair of golfers. Thanks in advance. Jim

Response:

anybody know what a nassau is?  I’ve seen that term in relation to golf betting but don’t know what it means?

 Nassau  Format:  Individual or Team No. of Players:  2,3,4 or more This is a very popular game that can be played between individuals or teams. In a Nassau there are three matches. The front nine holes make up the first match, the back nine another, and the 18 hole total making the third match. The point value of each match is equal and is determined prior to the round. Try this website, from which came the above: http://www.bestcoursestoplay.com/html/games.html Peter This game can be played match play or medal (stroke play).

Response:

Tony… We play $9 nassau in our men’s association. Team can win/lose $3 for the front, back and over all. We also pay for "scats" which are unanswered birdies, eagles and even aces. Even if you lose in the team scoring, if your team gets atleast one scat, the pay out is minimal. Our single 3 man team beat 12 other 4 man teams a couple of weeks ago. We won the front and the over all and tied the back. I had an eagle and 1 unanswered birdie. Our team won $80 per man for the the day’s work. Losing teams with no scats usually pay 9-$15 depending on the scats on other teams, which cost ya a $1. Nassau is great because you can have a terrible front nine and win the back. Or even a mediocre front and win the back and the over all. RJ … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – anybody know what a nassau is?  I’ve seen that term in relation to golf betting but don’t know what it means? thanks Tony Let’s say Me and another guy go play a round of golf.  We are trying to bet an amount on each hole.  Let’s say $1 hole to make it easy.  We are playing a skins type match play.  I win a total of 11 holes and he wins a total of 7, each winning a couple carryovers. I was thinking that a win a total of 4 dollars(he gives me 11 and aI give him7).  His view is I win 11 dollars and he gets nothing.  It doesn’t matter to either of us about money because were trying to play with the pressure and not really for the money. Also if anybody has any tips on other ways which are fun and dont get to complicated for a pair of golfers. Thanks in advance. Jim

Response:

In a $2 Nassau you bet $2 on the front 9, $2 on the back and $2 on the 18. You can play medal (one hole = one point) biy I think match (lowest for the nine) is more common – establish that and any handicap strokes and that the $2 is per person, not per team, up front. One of the features about nassau is the "press."   The losing team can start a new bet, called a press.  So let’s say you are up 3 holes after 7, your opponents say "we press the nine," which mean there are now four bets: the original 3 plus a new one for the holes number 8 and 9.  If they said "we press the 18," then the new bet would be for holes 8 – 18, though in most circles you can only press when you can no longer win.  So pressing the 18 will usually happen around hole 14 and pressing the back nine happens on 16 (or thereabouts) Some play mandatory presses, some play automatic presses.  My recommendation would be to play optinal presses, where you can decline any press you want and just stick with the original three.  Be sure to mention that on the 1st tee, also. Puttster

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – anybody know what a nassau is?  I’ve seen that term in relation to golf betting but don’t know what it means? thanks Tony Let’s say Me and another guy go play a round of golf.  We are trying to bet an amount on each hole.  Let’s say $1 hole to make it easy.  We are playing a skins type match play.  I win a total of 11 holes and he wins a total of 7, each winning a couple carryovers. I was thinking that a win a total of 4 dollars(he gives me 11 and aI give him7).  His view is I win 11 dollars and he gets nothing.  It doesn’t matter to either of us about money because were trying to play with the pressure and not really for the money. Also if anybody has any tips on other ways which are fun and dont get to complicated for a pair of golfers. Thanks in advance. Jim

Response:

Yep.  Me and two accountants took as long figurng out how to figure the winnings as we did to play!  But we did come up with a formula Each person gets: (person’s skins x number of players) Minus (total skins). So for your 11 skins you get 22-18 = $4.  He has 7, so he gets (pays) 14-18 = -$4.  If you were playing with a third guy who got zero skins you would have made 33-18 = $15.  If you have more or less than 18 skins, the formula still works. Remember to use number of players, not number of opponents.  Looks simple but write it down and put it in your bag.

Seems overly complicated to me….just pay each person the # of skins they won, and you receive the # you won from each of the other players. The net difference will be the same. So in the case above with three guys, he gets $4 from the guy with 7 (11- 7) and $11 from the guy with 0 skins. The guy with 0 skins pays out $7 and $11, and so on…. JL

Response:

Yep.  Me and two accountants took as long figurng out how to figure the winnings as we did to play!  But we did come up with a formula  Each person gets: (person’s skins x number of players) Minus (total skins). So for your 11 skins you get 22-18 = $4.  He has 7, so he gets (pays) 14-18 = -$4.  If you were playing with a third guy who got zero skins you would have made 33-18 = $15.  If you have more or less than 18 skins, the formula still works. Remember to use number of players, not number of opponents.  Looks simple but write it down and put it in your bag.

If you’re playing with golfers who aren’t that interested in mathematical formulas, it’s even simpler: If I won more skins that you, then you pay me (my skins – your skins). So if there are four guys who won 8, 5, 3, and 2 skins, then "8" gets three bucks from "5", he gets five bucks from "3" and six bucks from "2′. "5" gets two bucks from "3" and three bucks from "2".  "3" gets a single dollar from "2".  Now go buy beer. If you try to explain your formula, you’ll spend more time arguing with them than if you’d just taken the simple route. Doug —  ___,  Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer  o    IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont           |   |    Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752                |  /                                                                |    .   My homepage:  http://doug.obscurestuff.com                  (|)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep.  Me and two accountants took as long figurng out how to figure the winnings as we did to play!  But we did come up with a formula  Each person gets: (person’s skins x number of players) Minus (total skins). So for your 11 skins you get 22-18 = $4.  He has 7, so he gets (pays) 14-18 = -$4.  If you were playing with a third guy who got zero skins you would have made 33-18 = $15.  If you have more or less than 18 skins, the formula still works. Remember to use number of players, not number of opponents.  Looks simple but write it down and put it in your bag. If you’re playing with golfers who aren’t that interested in mathematical formulas, it’s even simpler: If I won more skins that you, then you pay me (my skins – your skins). So if there are four guys who won 8, 5, 3, and 2 skins, then "8" gets three bucks from "5", he gets five bucks from "3" and six bucks from "2′. "5" gets two bucks from "3" and three bucks from "2".  "3" gets a single dollar from "2".  Now go buy beer. If you try to explain your formula, you’ll spend more time arguing with them than if you’d just taken the simple route. Doug

Interesting….  I might give it a try, though where I play the only question is "how much do I owe?" or "How much do I get?"  My formula tells them that, eg, I would tell your "C" player he owes $6. If I use your method I would have to tell him "Pay A $5, pay B $2 and get $1 from D," with similar instructions to the others, altogether 12 separate transfers and no one will remember, or have change so C will try to net with B to get the right total to A… and in the end – chaos.  :-} I do like it though as maybe slower but a less mysterious way to get to the $6 (5+2-1 = $6). Thanks Puttster

Response:

Question:

I’ve got a small guest cottage that needs a new roof. It’s only about 650 sq. ft of roofing. There are two sections: a totally flat front section of only about 2 squares and the rear section which has a slight pitch and is the remaining 4.5 squares. The pitch is less than 3 in 12 so shingles shouldn’t be used. Currently there are three layers of el cheapo roll roofing that would have to be stripped off. I’ve been getting estimates and ideas from professional roofers that are all over the place.   Prices are ranging from $3000 to $5500.  For only 6.5 squares????? I know that there is a fair amount of work in the tear off, but gee whiz, that seems high. Suggestions also range from using new roll roofing, using "EDPM" type burn down membrane roofing,, other forms of membrane roofing, newer/heavier forms of roll roofing, to one "professional" knucklehead who tried to convince me that I could get away with regular shingles. The estimates given seem to have little relationship to the type of material used. I checked with a local roofing supply wholesaler who would sell me a ten square roll of EDPM membrane roofing for $550. The backer board recommended would cost another $300 or so. Add in a bit for aluminum drip edging, roofing cement, etc and the total material bill comes to less than $1000. Is the labor really worth $2000 to $4000????? Two guys could strip off those layers and throw them into a dumpster in one day. I figure installation would only take another day. Any suggestions as to the best material in terms of cost/longevity? Ten to 12 years seems to be able the maximum warranty for any of these materials. tnx, Doug

Response:

Is the labor really worth $2000 to $4000????? Two guys could strip off those layers and throw them into a dumpster in one day. I figure installation would only take another day. Any suggestions as to the best material in terms of cost/longevity? Ten to 12 years seems to be able the maximum warranty for any of these materials. tnx, Doug

It doesn’t matter if the "labor" is really worth $2000 to $4000, you have the estimates and that is what it is going to cost to have your roof professionally replaced.  The alternative is to do it yourself. I don’t mean to be rude, but you are incorrectly lumping all types of buisiness expenses under "labor". To answer your other question, the systems you mentioned all have their uses.  (By the way, EPDM is a single ply system that is either ballasted or glued, not burned down.)  In your application, I would lean towards a mineral surfaced APP (torch applied modified bitumen).  However, if you are having this professionally done, I believe the choice of the contractor is more important than the choice of the system.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is the labor really worth $2000 to $4000????? Two guys could strip off those layers and throw them into a dumpster in one day. I figure installation would only take another day. Any suggestions as to the best material in terms of cost/longevity? Ten to 12 years seems to be able the maximum warranty for any of these materials. tnx, Doug It doesn’t matter if the "labor" is really worth $2000 to $4000, you have the estimates and that is what it is going to cost to have your roof professionally replaced.  The alternative is to do it yourself. I don’t mean to be rude, but you are incorrectly lumping all types of buisiness expenses under "labor". To answer your other question, the systems you mentioned all have their uses.  (By the way, EPDM is a single ply system that is either ballasted or glued, not burned down.)  In your application, I would lean towards a mineral surfaced APP (torch applied modified bitumen).  However, if you are having this professionally done, I believe the choice of the contractor is more important than the choice of the system.

I agree. 1. Modified bitumen is an excellent roof material if installed by a qualified contractor.  2. The guys doing the work are most important. Most manufacturers guarantee their product. They do not guarantee workmanship. 3. The costs associated with the job include lots of items not seen on site. There is transportation, insurance, accounting, and dump fees which are way up. TB

Response:

Question:

I was expecting that.  It seems you’re uninformed about quite a number of things.  Acceptable use under copyright law allows individuals to copy cd’s such as those borrowed from libraries (as I do) for their own use.

Just for the fun of it… Could you please quote the exact provision which supports your assertion? Thanks. jb

Response:

Alright smart ass (not you, Richard), here’s chapter & verse:  Section 1008 of United States Public Law 102-563, also known as the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, states "No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, ****or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings****."  (emphasis added) Want to look it up?  Go to http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/bad_laws/ahra.html#sect1008. Acceptable or fair use clauses exist not out of the goodness of businessmen’s hearts (and by the way Oren, I would say that with your apparently rosy view of commerce, YOU’RE the one with the loose connection to reality, not me) but because they know it is simply not possible to prevent individuals from doing things like photocopying copyrighted print material, recording cd’s, copying software (look at a software package, why do you think they all "allow" one copy "for backup purposes and personal use") etc. Oren, I only replied to this after seeing Richard’s post and because I think it is germane to the subject of this newsgroup & others will be interested.   I will not be reading let alone responding to anything more you have to say on the topic, as I’m sure the rest of the group would like to GET BACK TO THE MUSIC as I suggested earlier. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry to intrude on this little argument here. But where _exactly_ does it state in "copyright law" that this practice is "acceptable?" Chapter and verse please. In the past 15 years I have recorded hundreds across all genres and no "stealing" involved. Is this your opinion? Or is is it wishful thinking? Don’t bother, Richard — it’s obvious David would rather discuss how things *should* be in Utopia, rather than face facts here on Earth. It’s easier to dodge responsibility and find scapegoats that way.  :) — Win $100 USD for a review of tune(s) @ www.mp3.com/orenzero/

Response:

When did I say I DO???  Perhaps you saw all my other posts on recording cd-r’s? No, but that’s okay. So, are you saying you steal music instead of paying what the seller is asking?

I was expecting that.  It seems you’re uninformed about quite a number of things.  Acceptable use under copyright law allows individuals to copy cd’s such as those borrowed from libraries (as I do) for their own use.  In the past 15 years I have recorded hundreds across all genres and no "stealing" involved. That’s a socialist cop-out, David.

Ahhh, there’s that word again.  What an effective way of dismissing anything that might upset the apple cart,  just label it with a word most that has been propagandized to the negative.  One thing I learned at an early age is when to stop battering one’s head against a brick wall of ignorance.  Back to the music. David

Response:

I was expecting that.  It seems you’re uninformed about quite a number of things.  Acceptable use under copyright law allows individuals to copy cd’s such as those borrowed from libraries (as I do) for their own use.

Where is that outlined in the statute, David?  I missed that part. Ahhh, there’s that word again.  What an effective way of dismissing anything that might upset the apple cart,  just label it with a word most that has been propagandized to the negative.  One thing I learned at an early age is when to stop battering one’s head against a brick wall of ignorance.  Back to the music.

That’s a convenient way to avoid talking about artists’ personal responsibility, I’ll give you that. — Win $100 USD for a review of tune(s) @ www.mp3.com/orenzero/

Response:

I was expecting that.  It seems you’re uninformed about quite a number of things.  Acceptable use under copyright law allows individuals to copy cd’s such as those borrowed from libraries (as I do) for their own use.

Sorry to intrude on this little argument here. But where _exactly_ does it state in "copyright law" that this practice is "acceptable?" Chapter and verse please. In the past 15 years I have recorded hundreds across all genres and no

"stealing" involved. Is this your opinion? Or is is it wishful thinking? Richard White — Hear Linda Ronstadt sing Richard White on

Question:

Hello I have Real World Accounting (Classic Version) for windows.  I am in the retail business.  Anyone know a point of sale module I can use with my Real World Accounting package or just Real World have one? Regards

Response:

Check out Synchronics out of Memphis.  Their system has a similar user interface to RW (originally, it was based on the RW packages which were, of course, based on the 70s MCBA product).  I haven’t worked with Synchronics in a couple of years, but they did still interface with RW (as well as Great Plains & others).  The product is robust enough for some pretty serious applications… It’s a fairly good POS product and I know of some multi-billion dollar companies that have adapted it for their use. David

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello I have Real World Accounting (Classic Version) for windows.  I am in the retail business.  Anyone know a point of sale module I can use with my Real World Accounting package or just Real World have one? Regards

Response:

I am posting this to just in case you can’t find a 3rd party add-on, or one that meets your need, or if you are also thinking of ever expanding the business online. We are certain that your business, like many of our customers, can benefit from streamlining and integrating operational, accounting, and e-commerce procedures. Ultimately, we believe that Accware

Question:

Greetings      I am looking for accounting mailing lists.  ANyone know of any? Regards Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Tosh  wrote      I am looking for accounting mailing lists.        ANyone know of any?

For what?  Are you looking for accounting firms?  Or potential clients who may need accounting services? For accounting firms, visit the national associations and state associations (AICPA, NAA, NAEA, etc.) For potential clients, there are a multitude of mail lists for sale on new and existing businesses. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

Response:

Question:

Any thoughts of the relative value of the CMA vs the CPA for individuals with aspirations in financial management / financial analysis / etc. (i.e. not taxation or public accounting) ???

Response:

I plan on doing both, but it depends more on what area you want to work in. If you’re willing to put in the extra effort to do both, I think there’s good logic on that because businesses look upon CPA’s with experience favorably.  CPA’s work with businesses in many capacities that do not narrow them to merely tax or personal financial planning.  A CPA who has worked with several different companies and done audits and corporate tax or financial statements has broad experience.  Also, as a matter of fact, those who pass the CPA exam waive Section 2 of the CMA exam as well. However, this is not reciprocal – a successful CMA candidate must take all of the CPA exam. Best of luck to you! Grant

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Any thoughts of the relative value of the CMA vs the CPA for individuals with aspirations in financial management / financial analysis / etc. (i.e. not taxation or public accounting) ???

Response:

proxy.airnews.net, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I plan on doing both, but it depends more on what area you want to work in. If you’re willing to put in the extra effort to do both, I think there’s good logic on that because businesses look upon CPA’s with experience favorably.  CPA’s work with businesses in many capacities that do not narrow them to merely tax or personal financial planning.  A CPA who has worked with several different companies and done audits and corporate tax or financial statements has broad experience.  Also, as a matter of fact, those who pass the CPA exam waive Section 2 of the CMA exam as well. However, this is not reciprocal – a successful CMA candidate must take all of the CPA exam. Best of luck to you! Grant Any thoughts of the relative value of the CMA vs the CPA for individuals with aspirations in financial management / financial analysis / etc. (i.e. not taxation or public accounting) ???

From my perspective, CPA is the benchmark.  Anything else you add depends on what field of expertise you choose. mdiederich,cpa,cia

Response:

Question:

Tom, I’d be interested in knowing what you do for a living now.  I’m programming and providing support for a small office network.  I am curious what realm you may have entered now.  If you want e-mail me off the newsgroup. Cheers, Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. GAAAAH!  Hahahahaha!  Yep, yep, yep.  That one kills me, too.  I can program up one side and down the other, but estimate how long something will take?  Sheesh.  Not a chance. When I *was* working as a professional programmer, my manager gave me some good advice:  Be like Scotty.  Have you ever watched the old Star Trek?  Scottie always over-estimated how long something would take, then doubled that.  At first people might be shocked at your estimates, but pretty soon you’ll get a reputation as a miracle worker.  (You’ll ALWAYS be early, and it’ll give you plenty of time for…) But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? We were pretty lucky.  The product we were working on had a definite list of features it had to be able to support (it was a set of C libraries), so we had a test suite we’d run against it.  It took about a day to run if there were no errors.  As bug reports came in from the field, we’d write test cases and add them to the suite. But I don’t know if that’ll be helpful to you.  Since we didn’t have a user-interface, most of our tests were automatic.  They’d just make calls, analyze what was on the screen, and kick back a "Yes" or a "No". I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? The only checklist we kept was the test suite.  But it was a pretty good checklist!  EVERY tech support call that came in either had to be verified using the test suite, or we had to write a new test case for the test suite.  Great way to stick to the OHIO principle (Only Handle It Once).  Once the call was closed, all future versions were going to test for that, so you could forget it. But for user interface testing, there’s nothing like getting a user in there with you to hammer on it.  Like the old saying goes, "Make it idiot proof, and they’ll come up with a better idiot."  I’ve never been able to test one of my own user interfaces, because I expect it to behave in a particular way.  Users want it to work the way users want it to work.  They’ll be the experts at telling you when something’s busted.  (And now you know why people go through alpha and beta testing in the field!!) Best of luck! Tom

Response:

Tom, I’d be interested in knowing what you do for a living now.  I’m programming and providing support for a small office network.  I am curious what realm you may have entered now.  If you want e-mail me off the newsgroup.

I’m doing UNIX system administration.  As far as a job for an ADHDer, it’s a mixed bag. On the one hand, I’ve got TRUCKLOADS of projects, ALL of which I’m expected to keep working on constantly.  That’s great.  If I start burning out, time to switch!  Stuff gets done, balls get juggled, and everything stays in the air.  (Bad news if you’re the kind of person who can’t task-switch at the drop of a hat.) On the other hand, I have had to become a list ‘n notes person.  I can’t keep this much crap in my head at once.  I forget stuff constantly unless it’s written down. I keep all of my notes (ALL of them) on a Palm Pilot.  That way I always know where the info is.  Even if I’m on my hands and knees inside a false ceiling checking wiring, everything I might normally keep on my desk is right there with me, clipped to my belt.  It makes the job do-able. The funny part is, lots of people I work with do the same thing.  ADD? Mmmm… no, I know at least some of them are at the other end of the spectrum.  Just handy, I think. The one down-side for me, at least, is that I *REALLY* have to watch my mouth.  It’s all fine ‘n dandy to be impulsive when talking to people you can get forgiveness from.  But it’s REALLY tempting to respond to someone who’s whining about their quota by saying, "I’ve got close to two thousand of you to bottle-feed.  Think I care about your quota?"  So far I’ve maintained pretty well. Funny part about that is, just about every other admin I know is the same way.  ADD?  Mmmm… no, I think that’s just par for the course for any admin.  They start turning into the BOFH. Tom

Response:

never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time.

My best advice is — avoid giving estimates.  Of course project managers etc. like to know how much time something takes, and if they don’t have a technical background they perhaps do not understand that it is difficult/impossible, and that things always takes longer than estimated.  Also they often have little idea what really takes time.  (They might think something is finished when you have finished your coding) If you have to do it try to get time for planning and clearly state that it influences the way you work. Try to think what their interest is.  Does other people depend on your part for their work?  Do they need some way to measure progress?  Can they actaully do something, like reallocating resources, if they think you will finish to late? One idea is to estimate the relative time needed on different tasks and phases.  Then both you and the project managers have a rough unbiased idea about how things are going. thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.

Also it is normal that software has bugs,  esp. people without a programming background have big difficulties understanding this. The best advice is just common good programming practice, like modular design, encapsulation, try to make all your functions generic. One particular advice is to try to exercise all your code …. step through every single line of your program with the debugger. Also try all the time try to have testability in mind when you write a unit. Think: "How can I verify that this piece of code is correct?".  "If something goes wrong here, how can I be sure the error is in the unit and not in other parts?"  You can also be a bit defensive and anticipate bugs.  Perhaps you can have debug-versions with a lot of logging so that you can track down bugs fast when they appear. Tamara

Michael

Response:

Thank you again.  You mentioned software NG…any particular ones you’d recommend?  Most of the ones I’ve seen were more technical/language specific. Elayne

<clipped lots of good advice

Response:

Wow, quick response, thanks! Do you have any suggestions for catching more of my bugs the first time around?  I do run some testing before I let anybody else see my work, but I’m getting complaints because things have to come back to me for debugging too many times.  Is that just hopeless?  Should I always rely on an outside tester?

I try to do that. That is rely on an outside tester. Unfortunatly it is usually my clients in th psy. department… (I am a programmer have a degree in computer science. and English lit..) what I have done lately is try and convince myself that my deadline is a day or two sooner than it really is. Then I try and convice everyone I can (including myself..) to work through it and find bugs. It helps, but not too much… Another problem I have is underestimating….I know I can finish a project in a certain time…but I tend to feel bad about adding my limitations time so I end up giving estimates that I can’t rely handle. Than I feel bad about not making them. Any suggestions there? me, huricane

Response:

I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time.

GAAAAH!  Hahahahaha!  Yep, yep, yep.  That one kills me, too.  I can program up one side and down the other, but estimate how long something will take?  Sheesh.  Not a chance. When I *was* working as a professional programmer, my manager gave me some good advice:  Be like Scotty.  Have you ever watched the old Star Trek?  Scottie always over-estimated how long something would take, then doubled that.  At first people might be shocked at your estimates, but pretty soon you’ll get a reputation as a miracle worker.  (You’ll ALWAYS be early, and it’ll give you plenty of time for…) But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design?

We were pretty lucky.  The product we were working on had a definite list of features it had to be able to support (it was a set of C libraries), so we had a test suite we’d run against it.  It took about a day to run if there were no errors.  As bug reports came in from the field, we’d write test cases and add them to the suite. But I don’t know if that’ll be helpful to you.  Since we didn’t have a user-interface, most of our tests were automatic.  They’d just make calls, analyze what was on the screen, and kick back a "Yes" or a "No". I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything?

The only checklist we kept was the test suite.  But it was a pretty good checklist!  EVERY tech support call that came in either had to be verified using the test suite, or we had to write a new test case for the test suite.  Great way to stick to the OHIO principle (Only Handle It Once).  Once the call was closed, all future versions were going to test for that, so you could forget it. But for user interface testing, there’s nothing like getting a user in there with you to hammer on it.  Like the old saying goes, "Make it idiot proof, and they’ll come up with a better idiot."  I’ve never been able to test one of my own user interfaces, because I expect it to behave in a particular way.  Users want it to work the way users want it to work.  They’ll be the experts at telling you when something’s busted.  (And now you know why people go through alpha and beta testing in the field!!) Best of luck! Tom

Response:

Can’t help you with a check list but it is a great idea.  Try sitting down when you are not under pressure and write down every thing you can think of to check.  Then make a list of things that have been brought back and why and compare to two lists.  As far as estimating time…you are fairly new and this takes time to develop.  Keep a log of tasks and time it takes to take care of it and make a chart….updating periodically to include new tasks and faster times. Fargo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

Response:

Tamara, I have one other piece of advice for this situation.  When you are so confident that you have tested everything that you can test, spend another day testing it.  That is the only thing I can think of in those situations.  Also remember that if you are under the gun, your mind may be in a different place than if you are relaxed and days ahead of schedule.  Perhaps you focus more under the gun?  Maybe you focus more when relaxed?  I’m trying to get help with scheduling.  That way I won’t be under the gun. Cheers, Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, quick response, thanks! Do you have any suggestions for catching more of my bugs the first time around?  I do run some testing before I let anybody else see my work, but I’m getting complaints because things have to come back to me for debugging too many times.  Is that just hopeless?  Should I always rely on an outside tester? Tamara Is it Tamara (cool name) or Elayne (very nice name, but lacking cool factor)? You signed Tamara so I will address you with that name. Tamara, I run a LAN for a small company.  Before that I had two ‘consulting’ jobs where I was employed by a computer company to do jobs for their customers.  Those jobs included building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, teaching programming, and PROGRAMMING. My current job involves runing the LAN, building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, and PROGRAMMING. I can tell you how much trouble I have with the exact things you are describing.  I can program and make beautiful looking screens and[SNIP previous history]

Response:

thanks, I’ll try that – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can’t help you with a check list but it is a great idea.  Try sitting down when you are not under pressure and write down every thing you can think of to check.  Then make a list of things that have been brought back and why and compare to two lists.  As far as estimating time…you are fairly new and this takes time to develop.  Keep a log of tasks and time it takes to take care of it and make a chart….updating periodically to include new tasks and faster times. Fargo I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

Response:

Wow, quick response, thanks! Do you have any suggestions for catching more of my bugs the first time around?  I do run some testing before I let anybody else see my work, but I’m getting complaints because things have to come back to me for debugging too many times.  Is that just hopeless?  Should I always rely on an outside tester?

There are many different methodologies (or paradines) for testing and much depends on the situation (development model, language, risk, size, etc.). If you are working under a WBS where you have small modules, you should be able to test the functionality based on requirements/design specifications. (If the error found is not in the requirement or design, it is a requirement/design error not a code error).  Boundary checking is also advisable.  If code is subject to coding standard, follow them as they catch some errors (if you don’t have coding standards, you should!).  Now if you do end to end systems engineering, well that is a whole new set of concerns/issues as it is with O-O (Object oriented design heuristics by Arthur Riel may be a good reference).  black-box testing, top down–you will learn over time, but since you know this is a weak spot (commend you on this), I would advise a software NG, one of several good books on the subject, or a class.  I’ve been in software over 20 years and still learning–it is the nature of the profession. Project planing/scheduling has always been a weekspot in software development as a whole–few really do efficient (or accurate) planning/scheduling.  Most put huge buffers in the process to ensure they meet cost/schedule (estimate it and then double it).  Slim, COCOMO, REVIC, Function Points are models/methods that may help, but to work effectively, they must have good processes that provide good inputs (GIGO) — few software processes meet this requirement.  Historical method might work for you–that is where you use past estimations to determine current estimations.  For example, the last time you had a project similar to this, you were off by 20 percent, so this time add the 20 percent in.  Again, there are good books/courses/NG out there.  Might find help at: http://www.sei.cmu.edu/publications/featured/enhanced.management.capa…. html or just see what http://www.sei.cmu.edu has to offer. Good luck and sorry for being off topic folks ….

Response:

While I was dwelling on the fundamental interconnectedness of all – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

A good book is "Code Complete" by Steve McConnell (Microsoft Press). Don Stauffer | Email is welcome except solicitation, which | | will be forwarded to domain Administrators. |

Response:

Wow, quick response, thanks! Do you have any suggestions for catching more of my bugs the first time around?  I do run some testing before I let anybody else see my work, but I’m getting complaints because things have to come back to me for debugging too many times.  Is that just hopeless?  Should I always rely on an outside tester? Tamara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it Tamara (cool name) or Elayne (very nice name, but lacking cool factor)? You signed Tamara so I will address you with that name. Tamara, I run a LAN for a small company.  Before that I had two ‘consulting’ jobs where I was employed by a computer company to do jobs for their customers.  Those jobs included building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, teaching programming, and PROGRAMMING. My current job involves runing the LAN, building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, and PROGRAMMING. I can tell you how much trouble I have with the exact things you are describing.  I can program and make beautiful looking screens and reports, but try to enter in fields and, WHAMMO!!!, error messages.  I test, but some stuff always slips by.  This is a source of great anger for me. One of the things that I try to remember is programming is 20% coding and 80% testing/debugging (for me).  If I can keep track of my time coding, I can estimate how long the debugging will take.  Also, I can never estimate ETA on a project.  I never kept track of a project previously and I can’t relate previous projects to current ones. I try to get help in setting up a project schedule.  One thing that sometimes helps is to break the project into really small parts. Sometimes it is easier to estimate duration of a really small project than a really big project.  Then I just add all of the small projects together. We gotta keep plugging, though.  Congrats on going pro! Cheers, Steve I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

Response:

I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

Response:

Is it Tamara (cool name) or Elayne (very nice name, but lacking cool factor)? You signed Tamara so I will address you with that name. Tamara, I run a LAN for a small company.  Before that I had two ‘consulting’ jobs where I was employed by a computer company to do jobs for their customers.  Those jobs included building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, teaching programming, and PROGRAMMING. My current job involves runing the LAN, building/configuring hardware, teaching the use of applications, and PROGRAMMING. I can tell you how much trouble I have with the exact things you are describing.  I can program and make beautiful looking screens and reports, but try to enter in fields and, WHAMMO!!!, error messages.  I test, but some stuff always slips by.  This is a source of great anger for me. One of the things that I try to remember is programming is 20% coding and 80% testing/debugging (for me).  If I can keep track of my time coding, I can estimate how long the debugging will take.  Also, I can never estimate ETA on a project.  I never kept track of a project previously and I can’t relate previous projects to current ones. I try to get help in setting up a project schedule.  One thing that sometimes helps is to break the project into really small parts.   Sometimes it is easier to estimate duration of a really small project than a really big project.  Then I just add all of the small projects together. We gotta keep plugging, though.  Congrats on going pro! Cheers, Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just started programming professionally this year (after doing it for fun most of my life), and I’m running into a number of hurdles that were never an issue when I was just doing this for family and friends.  One hurdle is that I’m expected to estimate my time in advance, you know, here’s a project, how long will it take you?  I can’t do it.  I’ve always had a terrible problem with time. But the bigger problem (right now at least) is this:  testing.  The dreaded T word.  It’s not that I mind doing debugging, but my boss and clients are starting to get fairly annoyed because they say I don’t test thoroughly enough before I send stuff off my desk.  And obviously I don’t, because they’re always coming up with errors.  Things I never dreamed of accounting for.  Or checking.  The thing is, I always think that I’ve covered everything when I send stuff out, I’m always confident, never think anything’s going to happen in testing.  But they come back with bugs, and I think, duh, why didn’t I think of that in design? I’ve never had any classes in programming or anything else, so I don’t know what they teach in school; I just grew up doing this stuff.  But I’ve tried looking around, and I can’t find anything that describes programming procedures like that.  You know, providing a checklist or something for testing.  So I was wondering if there are any other ADD programmers out there who could help me out on this one.  Do you have any checklists or certain procedures that you go by when you’re testing, to make sure you don’t forget anything? Tamara

Response:

Question:

It was rumored in this group that foreign visitors to NZ could recover a portion or all of the sales taxes paid while in NZ. However, neither my travel agent nor AAA has been able to get a ruling on the possibility. Does anyone know if it is possible for a US visitor to NZ to recover any of the sales tax paid on purchases in NZ? if so, where can I get more info on how to do this and what is covered?. Our trip is immanent (Feb 4! ) and I have appreciated the help that contributors to this NG have given us as we make our preparations. Don

Response:

:It was rumored in this group that foreign visitors to NZ could recover a :portion or all of the sales taxes paid while in NZ. However, neither my :travel agent nor AAA has been able to get a ruling on the possibility. Does :anyone know if it is possible for a US visitor to NZ to recover any of the :sales tax paid on purchases in NZ? if so, where can I get more info on how :to do this and what is covered?. Our trip is immanent (Feb 4! ) and I :have appreciated the help that contributors to this NG have given us as we :make our preparations. No you can’t recover your tax. NZ has GST (Goods & Services Tax) on (almost) everything!! This is a standard 12.5% – check prices; if they DO NOT state excl GST or some similar thing then GST is usually included in the price. This tax is NON REFUNDABLE unless you are a GST registered business in which case you must charge it on every sale you make but can claim against your business purchases as well. So unless you are planning on starting a business you might as well count GST as part of the normal cost like the rest of us do!! Check these sites )depending on your interests) http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/holiday  for those holidaying in NZ http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/trader   to see the best accounting software around http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/trader/vizsla   to see the best dogs in the WORLD http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/trader/steve    Why Not? You’ve seen the rest!

Response:

It was rumored in this group that foreign visitors to NZ could recover a portion or all of the sales taxes paid while in NZ.

Definitely no *in NZ* except at tax-exempt (duty-free) shops such as camera shops.  The whole point of GST is to spread the tax burden and recover costs from tourists.  However purchasers *outside NZ* do not pay but the items must be posted to an address outside NZ. eg We bought a polarfleece jacket in Chch last week (NZ makes some of the best outdoor clothing and equipment in the world) but the tax saving of about $20 would be offset by the cost of postage so we paid the GST. Vicki

Response:

Question:

This is one of a woodworker’s greatest challenges.  You have to take into consideration everything you already mentioned, plus your shop overhead costs (electricity, glue, sandpaper, pencils, eraser, paper, sawblade sharpening, etc.) in addition to paying yourself for your work.  I usually cheat myself excessively and consider that my work is worth $15 an hour.  For crying out loud, I’m sure I’m worth more than that, but I don’t get many commissions if I bid higher than that…perhaps it’s because my efficiency isn’t adequate as I only work part-time at this small business of mine. Good luck!

Response:

I have been building and learning to build furniture for about 2 years and have finally received a commission to build a deacon’s bench.  I built one for my wife made of #2 pine and it came out every bit as good as the $500 oak job I aped from the local furniture emporium, probably better from looking at the quality of construction I am finding in "fine" furniture in the stores. My question is how does one come up with a fair price.  I am building this for a friend who also owns a flower/antique shop.  I don’t have room/money for a big table saw, etc. and everything I do takes a long time but it is "hand made" and with a very critical eye for quality.  I am using pine because mainly it is inexpensive enough that I can screw up and not go bankrupt until I learn the craft more. when pricing do you take into account a percentage of labor?  Material of course I understand.  Also, should one take into account the value of perhaps underpricing ones first few objects in favor of future work? I have had many wonderful comments on my work and hope to expand things more, so this group is helpful. Thanks!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been building and learning to build furniture for about 2 years and have finally received a commission to build a deacon’s bench.  I built one for my wife made of #2 pine and it came out every bit as good as the $500 oak job I aped from the local furniture emporium, probably better from looking at the quality of construction I am finding in "fine" furniture in the stores. My question is how does one come up with a fair price.  I am building this for a friend who also owns a flower/antique shop.  I don’t have room/money for a big table saw, etc. and everything I do takes a long time but it is "hand made" and with a very critical eye for quality.  I am using pine because mainly it is inexpensive enough that I can screw up and not go bankrupt until I learn the craft more. when pricing do you take into account a percentage of labor?  Material of course I understand.  Also, should one take into account the value of perhaps underpricing ones first few objects in favor of future work? I have had many wonderful comments on my work and hope to expand things more, so this group is helpful. Thanks!

There are a lot of answers to this question Mark, but a good *STARTING PLACE* is 4 x the cost of the materials. However, you should keep accurate records of time, waste and overhead, etc. until you have a good handle on these. I would also suggest talking to your local Small Business Development Center (part of the SBA and it’s free). They can guide you to someone from S.C.O.R.E. (S(???) Corps Of Retired Executives, also free) who can help you develop a pricing system, but you need data first. Not all Gov’t programs are a waste. SCORE will probably have a member who is an industrial engineer who will be of *SOME* help in identifying wasted motion, etc., pick their brains it’s well worth it.

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Pricing is easy.  Use this simple formula: Figure the cost of your materials, your time, and your overhead.  SubTotal.  Double it.  Multiply by a factor of ten.  Add 30% for contingencies. Total. I’ve used this formula for years and found that I can consistently earn a profit margin of nearly 2%. Be happy, do good work, stay in touch. This is one of a woodworker’s greatest challenges.  You have to take into consideration everything you already mentioned, plus your shop overhead costs (electricity, glue, sandpaper, pencils, eraser, paper, sawblade sharpening, etc.) in addition to paying yourself for your work.  I usually cheat myself excessively and consider that my work is worth $15 an hour.  For crying out loud, I’m sure I’m worth more than that, but I don’t get many commissions if I bid higher than that…perhaps it’s because my efficiency isn’t adequate as I only work part-time at this small business of mine. Good luck!

–  By working faithfully eight hours a day,  you may eventually get to be a boss  and work twelve hours a day.  - Robert Frost –

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 Read the article "Pricing your work based on cost" on page 22 of the August Woodshop News available in most newsstands. A typical formula is Labor + materials + overhead + profit There are lots of variables, but resist the temptation to lower a fair price just to get some work.

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Nobody is gonna figger out yer price policy cuz it involves too many unknowns-BUT! please dont expect to be paid for labor too much if your terribly slow due to inexperience,,Many woodworkers once used to building a product enough to get fast at it can charge alot less than you probably would and still make money on the job,,I believe you need to figger out how much per hr you expect to make and mfr products that allow you to make that kinda wage,,The marketplace sets the price and workers only try to fit themselves into that marketplace IMHO,,Finding Productive work methods,Good prices on supplies,and getting enough experience building a product to become efficient at it all add up to profits for you,,Many many Craft books on Howto price your products are available at library and i feel it all boils down to How much per hr do you wanna make AND will thee product allow you to get that amount? If not then its time to locate a product that will allow that much to be made. Many items are listed in Crafts as "Granny" items and can never sell for the amount of labor that went into them and so LOSE MONEY! but granny dont mind as its a pastime,,But my point is basically if a quality product is sellin well at 200$ then a MORE quality + labor on the same product aint gonna make it worth 500$ so if you cant survive at the 200$ rate simply find another product that will provide your numbers for you after your experienced enuff to be productive and efficient,,Fergit about educating the public Cuz Coke tried it with COKE II and lost 100,000,000$ so what chance do we have? The publics misconceptions are actually all very good cuz many pieces of crap are percieved as bein worthwhile and make big money for the producers,Stuff like Plastic furniture,Fiberboard,Tinny fenders,etc etc..Also ive seen a few Woodcraft items goin for good $$$ and popular with the public,,Folks still appreciate stuff like Handcrafted,Handpainted,Heirloom quality products and do pay for them…Good Luck                                        Lee Ward CorpSoft BBS, Romeoville IL : (815)886-9388 v.34 33600 (ringdown)
         20 Gig’s : 21 CDROM’s : RIME/FIDO/I-net/Intelec

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 John Alexander wrote… heavily edited…

"…Labor + materials + overhead + profit….  when I applied their formula to a oak child’s rocker I market, I find it should retail for $1200… You can use these formulas for high end custom work for well heeled clients, but most things can only be priced as to what the market will bear…." John, I think you’re assessment is right on, but that doesn’t invalidate the formula.  If your labor, plus the cost of your materials and overhead come out to $1000, then that is what it cost you to make the rocker.  If you sell it for less, you lose money. If the quality of your work is consistent with that price, I’d say go for it. Look for the segment of the market that will pay $1200 for a kids chair.  You may be surprised to find that you’re actually underpriced. If in your area you find that the top price for a kids rocker is $400 or $40 the formula points to what you have to do to hit that price.  You can lower your labor rate, find more efficient production methods, look for better buys on materials, cut overhead, and work for little or no profit (I don’t like that last one). But the formula is pretty good as it stands.  Those are the four components that go into establishing a price. See you later, George Sinos

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pricing is easy.  Use this simple formula: Figure the cost of your materials, your time, and your overhead.  SubTotal.  Double it.  Multiply by a factor of ten.  Add 30% for contingencies. Total. I’ve used this formula for years and found that I can consistently earn a profit margin of nearly 2%. Be happy, do good work, stay in touch. This is one of a woodworker’s greatest challenges.  You have to take into consideration everything you already mentioned, plus your shop overhead costs (electricity, glue, sandpaper, pencils, eraser, paper, sawblade sharpening, etc.) in addition to paying yourself for your work.  I usually cheat myself excessively and consider that my work is worth $15 an hour.  For crying out loud, I’m sure I’m worth more than that, but I don’t get many commissions if I bid higher than that…perhaps it’s because my efficiency isn’t adequate as I only work part-time at this small business of mine. Good luck!

My father and uncle ran a small furniture factory for a number of years and they had a real simple method for setting prices. They determined the retail sales price for a piece at 10 times the retail (small quanity) material cost. They would then try to determine if people would take one home from the furniture store at that price, in other words were simular pieces "selling" near that price, not were they priced at that price. If they were selling at that point they would set the FOB wholesale price at 5 times the material cost(50% of selling price) and a sugested retail (400% retail markup) price of 20 times the material cost. That way furniture stores could give customers a nice discount 25% to 50% off retail. Michael Peele

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Owens) writes: Read the article "Pricing your work based on cost" on page 22 of the August Woodshop News available in most newsstands. A typical formula is Labor + materials + overhead + profit There are lots of variables, but resist the temptation to lower a fair price just to get some work. I read that article and found it very interesting. However, when I applied their formula to a oak child’s rocker I market, I find it should retail for $1200. Any parents out there that are willing to spend $1200 on a rocking chair for their child, please e-mail me. You can use these formulas for high end custom work for well heeled clients, but most things can only be priced as to what the market will bear. Alex

Alex, if you can’t get the big-4 out of your work, you’re losing money. There are a number of ways to reduce costs: "economy of scale", where the more pieces you make that are the same, the lower the costs should be. To achieve EoS, one needs to find ways to lower the costs by: volume buying of materials, automating some operations, out-sourcing, modifying design, *cheaper* materials, variable labor prices based on the operation, etc. There is also another element of accounting not mentioned, G&A (General and Administrative costs) which essentially cover the costs of indirect labor and of running a business. And very important, don’t overlook labor costs to go to the lumber yard, whatever, to get materials, resaerch, etc. that many folks don’t consider cost items. You may have underestimated the cost of that chair!

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Owens) writes: Read the article "Pricing your work based on cost" on page 22 of the August Woodshop News available in most newsstands. A typical formula is Labor + materials + overhead + profit There are lots of variables, but resist the temptation to lower a fair price just to get some work.

I read that article and found it very interesting. However, when I applied their formula to a oak child’s rocker I market, I find it should retail for $1200. Any parents out there that are willing to spend $1200 on a rocking chair for their child, please e-mail me. You can use these formulas for high end custom work for well heeled clients, but most things can only be priced as to what the market will bear. Alex

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My question is how does one come up with a fair price. <snip when pricing do you take into account a percentage of labor?  Material of course I understand.  Also, should one take into account the value of perhaps underpricing ones first few objects in favor of future work?

If a customer gets a really underpriced piece, they will usually expect the same deal later. If you can deal with that one way or another, that’s ok. When figuring out your labor, try to include all the tasks that you’d have to pay someone to do if you had an employee doing the work. If you sent an employee to the lumber yard to pick out wood, they’d probably expect to be paid for their time! Shouldn’t you expect to be paid for that time, too? You can establish different rates for different tasks (pay yourself less for picking up supplies and other low-skill tasks) if you wish.

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My question is how does one come up with a fair price.  I am building this for a friend who also owns a flower/antique shop.  I don’t have room/money for a big table saw, etc. and everything I do takes a long time but it is "hand made" and with a very critical eye for quality.

You might want to take a look at Ramsey’s book, "The Woodworker’s Guide to Pricing Your Work. $19 in the Woodworkers’ Discount Books Catalog at http://www.pacificrim.net/woodbooks. Bruce

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My father and uncle ran a small furniture factory for a number of years and they had a real simple method for setting prices. They determined the retail sales price for a piece at 10 times the retail (small quanity) material cost. They would then try to determine if people would take one home from the furniture store at that price, in other words were simular pieces "selling" near that price, not were they priced at that price. If they were selling at that point they would set the FOB wholesale price at 5 times the material cost(50% of selling price) and a sugested retail (400% retail markup) price of 20 times the material cost. That way furniture stores could give customers a nice discount 25% to 50% off retail.

That’s fine for expensive wood furniture with little to no labor. How about labor _intensive_ products with smaller wood costs?  If you have ten bucks worth of wood and ten hours involved in producing the piece, wholesale price would be $50, cost $10 and your labor/profit would be worth a whopping four dollars an hour. When did Dad and Uncle JoeBob run this business?  Back when labor was $2.35/hr?  <snicker  <sorry, couldn’t resist And that’s my perspective.  YMMV *  laugh at themselves,for they    * www.diversify.com/~ljaques * shall never cease to be amused   *

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 John Alexander wrote… heavily edited… "…Labor + materials + overhead + profit….  when I applied their formula to a oak child’s rocker I market, I find it should retail for $1200… You can use

Following this formula my birdseye corner cupboard with hand forge hardware (I’m doing that too) should retail for a little under $60,000. That is factoring my time at $2.50/hr and $20.00 profit and about $250 wood. Ahhh to hell with it….it’s not for sale! Daryl – thinking about making my own antique glass 8^) — Clouds are high flying fogs.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  John Alexander wrote… heavily edited… "…Labor + materials + overhead + profit….  when I applied their formula to a oak child’s rocker I market, I find it should retail for $1200… You can use Following this formula my birdseye corner cupboard with hand forge hardware (I’m doing that too) should retail for a little under $60,000. That is factoring my time at $2.50/hr and $20.00 profit and about $250 wood. Ahhh to hell with it….it’s not for sale! Daryl – thinking about making my own antique glass 8^)

Daryl, I would love to someday see you make a martini.  I’ve never seen anyone make their own gin Dave Van Ess

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I had a potential customer ask me to design up a custom widget clone and give him an estimate for the job.  I knew this person, and I knew that they were probably looking for the classic "lower price".  I tried something new to ease the feeling of guilt/embarrassment. I drew up the plans, wrote down the materials and their cost, and then outlined the labor in hours for each step, but didn’t fill in the labor rate.  I handed them the proposal with the words "let me know what you think my time is worth." They never came back.  This method weeds out the people looking for low end cost, and eliminates the touchy subject of self-worth proclamation, essentially providing the potential customer with some up front education about what the job will take. Duane

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I had a potential customer ask me to design up a custom widget clone and give him an estimate for the job.  I knew this person, and I knew that they were probably looking for the classic "lower price".  I tried something new to ease the feeling of guilt/embarrassment. I drew up the plans, wrote down the materials and their cost, and then outlined the labor in hours for each step, but didn’t fill in the labor rate.  I handed them the proposal with the words "let me know what you think my time is worth." They never came back.  This method weeds out the people looking for low end cost, and eliminates the touchy subject of self-worth proclamation, essentially providing the potential customer with some up front education about what the job will take.

Interesting approach.  One thing I might mention is that I read an article by Jim Tolpin (I believe) who advises that all plans & such be marked as the proprietary information of the creater.  He had a customer as for a design once, so he drew up detailed plans to impress the fellow.  The fellow was.  He took the plans to a competitor who did the job cheaper. He makes it clear now that the design is his, and may be purchased but may not be otherwised used. Hope your plans don’t end up in the hands of a low-ball competitor Duane… …Kevin

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Question:

(1) What are the odds this kind of thing would EVER get through Congress?  Do we all have little Jerry Brown’s ready to run for Senate/HR seats in the near term? Since sometimes evolution is more likely than revolution (IMHO), I’m curious if there are any intermediate steps to Brown’s plan. (2) The 13% flat tax reform is the only new idea to emerge from this year’s presidential campaign.   Hear hear. With it, the stock market will go through the roof, businesses will thrive, and millions of Americans will go back to work.  

This sounds nice… But only having a fifth-grade education, I don’t get it that quickly.  Could you explain this in a bit more detail, please? (3)With tax evasion and avoidance greatly reduced, with the money and talent used for tax purposes released, and with production incentives in place, the economy would expand and federal revenues would sharply increase.

Didn’t you earlier describe this talent as "political influence or cleverness in mining the tax codes"?  What do you expect these people to do in FlatTax Utopia? Sell all those wonderful American cars? (4) What is California’s tax system like?  Why? Don’t get me wrong…. I’m all for fairplay, too.  And according to some druggie survey, I’z a liberal. I just _CANT STAND_  unsubstantiated claims that use emotional language (<=Def: netnews) and don’t demonstrate a shread of humility or caution.  Self-assurance is one thing, but I’d expect a bit more from a potential leader… or his/her spokesperson. -Mike

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[Jerry Browns's 13% tax plan...] Why the exemptions for liquor, tobacco, mortgages, rent, and charity?   Why 13%? Why is flat-rate better than e.g. a progressive 10% to 20% bracketed rate, but without exemptions? 13% is what Jerry Brown’s financial guru’s came up with as a number that would keep the amount of federal revenue the same as it is now.

Ok, I’ll buy that. Why the exceptions for Tabbaco and alchohol, I’m not sure. The exemptions for Mortgage and rent is because everyone needs a place to live and you shouldn’t be taxed on a basic necessity. The deduction for charity, I assume, is because it will generate income for those "worthy" or needy groups that might not get the income if other’s couldn’t deduct it from their taxes.

Seems we’re right back where we started.  Clean it up and then start making exceptions to please those whose votes you want, and stick it to groups too small to complain: 1) Few people argue *against* a sin tax 2) Few people argue *against* giving to charity 3) Few people own property so that they won’t pay mortgages or rent. It’s all the same garbage as far as I’m concerned; just a little less garbage. I’d have a *lot* more respect for the plan if it went all the way and just said 13% flat out, *NO* exceptions. Why do we need a progressive tax rate? Isn’t it more equitable to have everyone pay the same percentage of what they make.

I suppose this is an old argument about what is and isn’t "fair."  I’ve heard plenty of arguments justifying flat-rate taxes, I just wanted to hear Brown’s. -Bob

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…and people who worry that once the VAT is instituted, the rate will get jacked up in due course, are as silly as the people who made a big fuss over that teeny-tiny 6% (max) income tax in 1913.

I see a need for a new tax structure.  Brown proposes a loophole-free one.  If we can install and preserve it I think we will do fine.  Then the need for increased revenue can only come from an increase that is obvious to those being taxed.  If, instead, we play "change the loopholes" the electorate won’t notice until it is too late. Personally I would like to see some loophole-free tax plan (Brown’s is just one possible example) installed with a requirement that there be be at tax levy vote to increase the tax rate. — Phil Hughes – FYL – 8315 Lk City Wy NE – Suite 207 – Seattle, WA 98115 Phone: 206-526-2919 x74      Fax: 526-0803

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"…and people who worry that once the VAT is instituted, the rate will "get jacked up in due course, are as silly as the people who made a "big fuss over that teeny-tiny 6% (max) income tax in 1913. " We need a constitutional amendment with the rate built right into it. That way, they need to pass another one to raise or lower it. Some would say: "But thats too inflexible", and I say "RIGHT! – Let them live within their means". "I see a need for a new tax structure.  Brown proposes a loophole-free "one.  If we can install and preserve it I think we will do fine.  Then "the need for increased revenue can only come from an increase that is "obvious to those being taxed.  If, instead, we play "change the "loopholes" the electorate won’t notice until it is too late. " "Personally I would like to see some loophole-free tax plan (Brown’s is "just one possible example) installed with a requirement that there be "be at tax levy vote to increase the tax rate. "– That might work too, as it does in Michigan. In this state, taxes cannot be levied or raised without a vote of the people. Many years back, when they were pushing to get a state lottery, they (the proponents in the state govt), said that all the money would go towards education, and this was actually written into the Lottery Law. Well, it passed, and to this day, the money DOES go to education. Problem is that they cut the general fund allocation to education just about as much as education made off of the lottery. A few years back, there was a proposal on the ballot to raise the sales tax 1/2 percent or 1-1/2 percent, with all the extra money earmarked for education. The people slammed them by voting it down by an overwhelming margin. THATS WHAT I CALL THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE!!! We didn’t buy their con-game this time! — +1 313 790 6426 (USR HST)      | MICHIGAN NETWORK SYSTEMS, INC.   +1 313 790 6432 (TELEBIT PEP)  | 800-736-5984  FAX: 313-790-6437

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The flat tax is straightforward:  eliminate the personal income tax, the social security tax, the corporate tax, the gift and estate tax, the gasoline tax and other federal excise taxes (except the so-called sin taxes such as those on liquor and  ^^^^^^! tobacco), and replace them with a 13% tax on personal gross unadjusted income and a 13% tax on the gross revenues of business. For individuals, the concept is the same.  Each person would be required to report all income without deductions, exemptions or exclusions except for mortgage interest, rent paid on a primary            ^^^^^^! residence, and charitable deductions.  Once individuals or families have calculated their tax base, the actual tax is simply 13% of that number. Could someone please help me out and answer: Why the exemptions for liquor, tobacco, mortgages, rent, and charity?   Why 13%? Why is flat-rate better than e.g. a progressive 10% to 20% bracketed rate, but without exemptions?

13% is what Jerry Brown’s financial guru’s came up with as a number that would keep the amount of federal revenue the same as it is now. Why the exceptions for Tabbaco and alchohol, I’m not sure. The exemptions for Mortgage and rent is because everyone needs a place to live and you shouldn’t be taxed on a basic necessity. The deduction for charity, I assume, is because it will generate income for those "worthy" or needy groups that might not get the income if other’s couldn’t deduct it from their taxes. Why do we need a progressive tax rate? Isn’t it more equitable to have everyone pay the same percentage of what they make. Geoff

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Why the exemptions for liquor, tobacco, mortgages, rent, and charity?  

Because under current tax policy, there are no rent exemptions. Under the Brown Flat Tax, the poor would actually be paying less than they are now, since they can have exemptions for rent, and will not have regressive social security taxes.  I guess the theory is that everyone in this country has a right to a home, but income above that is fair game for taxing. -Tom

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The flat tax is straightforward:  eliminate the personal income tax, the social security tax, the corporate tax, the gift and estate tax, the gasoline tax and other federal excise taxes (except the so-called sin taxes such as those on liquor and   ^^^^^^! tobacco), and replace them with a 13% tax on personal gross unadjusted income and a 13% tax on the gross revenues of business. For individuals, the concept is the same.  Each person would be required to report all income without deductions, exemptions or exclusions except for mortgage interest, rent paid on a primary             ^^^^^^! residence, and charitable deductions.  Once individuals or families have calculated their tax base, the actual tax is simply 13% of that number. Could someone please help me out and answer: Why the exemptions for liquor, tobacco, mortgages, rent, and charity?   Why 13%?

13% is the number which would bring in the amount of income currently collected by the government. The 13% is a simplification. It probably should be graded somewhat, but 13% is a ‘zeroth order approximation’. Why is flat-rate better than e.g. a progressive 10% to 20% bracketed rate, but without exemptions? I love the idea of having absurdly simple tax codes, but I’m trying to understand the basis for the details of Brown’s plan.

The basis is to get rid of the lobbying and purchases of loopholes in the tax code. 99% of the tax code is for an extremely small segment of the population (loopholes for them to avoid paying their fair share of taxes). Brown isn’t going to be very popular with the richest segment of our society, but who cares about them anyways. The middle and lower classes control most of the votes (one thing money can’t buy you is more than you one vote). The big money politicians don’t want people to vote this year, as a populist movement could dethrone them. I for one will be voting in November (and primary in June). People who don’t vote shouldn’t complain when they don’t get what they want… -Bob

-Garrett

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…and people who worry that once the VAT is instituted, the rate will get jacked up in due course, are as silly as the people who made a big fuss over that teeny-tiny 6% (max) income tax in 1913.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The flat tax is straightforward:  eliminate the personal income tax, the social security tax, the corporate tax, the gift and estate tax, the gasoline tax and other federal excise taxes (except the so-called sin taxes such as those on liquor and   ^^^^^^! tobacco), and replace them with a 13% tax on personal gross unadjusted income and a 13% tax on the gross revenues of business. For individuals, the concept is the same.  Each person would be required to report all income without deductions, exemptions or exclusions except for mortgage interest, rent paid on a primary             ^^^^^^! residence, and charitable deductions.  Once individuals or families have calculated their tax base, the actual tax is simply 13% of that number.

Could someone please help me out and answer: Why the exemptions for liquor, tobacco, mortgages, rent, and charity?   Why 13%? Why is flat-rate better than e.g. a progressive 10% to 20% bracketed rate, but without exemptions? I love the idea of having absurdly simple tax codes, but I’m trying to understand the basis for the details of Brown’s plan. -Bob

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Why the exemptions for liquor, tobacco, mortgages, rent, and charity?   Why 13%? Why is flat-rate better than e.g. a progressive 10% to 20% bracketed rate, but without exemptions?

I don’t support Brown’s tax plan, but do support a flat-rate, no-deductions tax rate of 5%. If you make less than $20k, your tax will be less than $1k. If you make a $1,000k, your tax will be $50k. No deductions. No nothing. Just a flat rate. No special "capital gains" rate, either. This is beneficial to all parties. First, low-income Americans (under $20k) pay a substantially lower amount of tax than they would currently (15%). The "rich" would have to pay "their fair share" as they wouldn’t be able to take deductions and other tax shelters to reduce their liabilities. Plus, it helps eliminate thousands of IRS jobs. No more tax codes to interpret. Your staff merely processes returns and collects taxes. Overall, everyone wins. MD — —  Michael P. Deignan                      / —    UUCP: …!uunet!rayssd!anomaly!mpd  /    I hate everyone. — Telebit: +1 401 455 0347              /

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Spread the number around! (From the Jerry Brown BBS 1-301-864-8255) The Case for a Flat-Rate Tax: A Silver Bullet Solution for the Economy By Edmund G. Brown, Jr. February 10, 1992 All the presidential candidates are proposing tax gimmicks which add to the complexity of the tax code and do nothing to create sustainable jobs.  What is worse, this constant reworking of the tax code stokes up the crooked Washington fundraising machine that routinely auctions off loopholes to the highest bidder. Needless to say, churning tax rules year after year also kills long term investment. What is really called for is not cosmetic alteration, but radical surgery.  The cancer eating at our democracy is the out of control metastasis of political money.  The candidates, the media, and public officials have all succumbed to the lethal dogma that electability requires obscene amounts of special interest money; and the most lucrative source of this kind of money is the ceaseless manipulation of tax laws. Halting the campaign-dollar banquet feast of loopholes can never happen until the myth of progressivity in the Internal Revenue Code is exploded and the dark nature of American tax reality is exposed:  i.e., that only the rich hire lobbyists and high priced lawyers to insure that the system favors themselves at the expense of everyone else. That is why the silver bullet which both fights corruption and jump-starts the economy is the abolition of the current system of federal taxation and its replacement with a flat 13% levy across the board.  With one stroke, the major source of venality and graft will be eliminated and the Byzantine strictures of the Internal Revenue Code made so simple that even a sixth grader will understand them. The 13% flat tax reform is the only new idea to emerge from this year’s presidential campaign.  With it, the stock market will go through the roof, businesses will thrive, and millions of Americans will go back to work.  Of course, politicians, tax preparers, attorneys, accountants and I.R.S. agents will fight to preserve their honey pot.  But regular citizens will love the low marginal rate and the utter ease of compliance. The flat tax is straightforward:  eliminate the personal income tax, the social security tax, the corporate tax, the gift and estate tax, the gasoline tax and other federal excise taxes (except the so-called sin taxes such as those on liquor and tobacco), and replace them with a 13% tax on personal gross unadjusted income and a 13% tax on the gross revenues of business. For business, the basic tax is a simplified version of the value added tax popular in other countries.  Our version would be much better because it is so simple.  Each company would just take its total sales and subtract its purchases from other taxpaying companies to get its tax base.  The tax would then be calculated by multiplying the tax base by 13%. For individuals, the concept is the same.  Each person would be required to report all income without deductions, exemptions or exclusions except for mortgage interest, rent paid on a primary residence, and charitable deductions.  Once individuals or families have calculated their tax base, the actual tax is simply 13% of that number. For the first time, deducting rent on one’s primary residence would put renters on an equal footing with homeowners and substantially reduce their tax liability, especially for those whose rent payments make up a significant proportion of their income.  Despite the low rate of 13%, federal revenues would be at least as much as they are today and probably much higher if this revamping of the tax code unleashes the business expansion we expect. Today, 81.5% of all federal tax receipts come from individuals. In 1950, individuals contributed only 50.9% of all federal tax receipts.  This erosion of the business tax base is completely reversed by our proposed flat tax which reduces the amount of taxes collected from individuals by about 45% and puts the obligation back on business.  Moreover, the flat tax does something else.  In lieu of the current mess, it would steer much of the considerable talent of tax lawyers and accountants to better purposes elsewhere in the economy. In a similar vein, politicians have created an obscene amount of makeshift work because of the complicated and constantly shifting tax laws.  In Washington, high paid lobbyists scurry daily through the corridors of power currying favor with elected officials.  Campaign donations, and other forms of payoffs are the natural consequences.  Congressional staffs grow unchecked to make sure that no possible donation is left untapped.  With our radical restructuring of the tax law, Congress would be able to focus on more pressing needs and their staffs could be reduced and companies freed of the burden of hiring so many tax lobbyists.  We would all come out winners. We would also win in another way — by putting a big dent in the huge underground economy.  The flat tax would reduce tax evasion for two reasons.  First, the low flat rate on individuals and corporations provides a lot less incentive to cheat and a lot fewer ways to do so.  And second, because more of the total tax receipts would come from business, there will be less tax to cheat on for individuals.  The additional federal revenues would be quite substantial. The present tax laws reward business lobbying and gimmickry. The flat tax on individuals and businesses gets rid of all this nonsense and tells people that you earn profits only on your successes in the market place, not from your political influence or your cleverness in mining the tax codes. One other feature of the value added tax deserves special notice.  Companies will be allowed to expense capital purchases in the year of purchase for purposes of calculating their tax base.  This will eliminate the need for complicated depreciation schedules and dramatically spur investment. With tax evasion and avoidance greatly reduced, with the money and talent used for tax purposes released, and with production incentives in place, the economy would expand and federal revenues would sharply increase. Finally, this tax proposal is revenue neutral.   Every tax increase is offset by a tax reduction.  The net effect on prices will be precisely zero. People with large amounts of "unearned income" will bear more of the tax burden [than currently].  Those earning less than $100,000 annually will pay less in taxes.  Those people who make more than $100,000 will pay proportionally more.  Those who have all the write-offs and deductions will start paying their fair share. Other presidential candidates profess to help the middle class and suggest all manner of tax gimmickry. This sweeping reform is the only one which will do the job our economy needs. 1-800-426-1112 Brown for President

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