Question:

This is what happens when you put a woman in charge of anything. She single-handedly ruined HP. Women need to stay barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. The corporate world is no place for these evil whores. http://forum.dearingfilm.com//index.php?showtopic=7047 Hewlett-Packard Ousts CEO Carly Fiorina SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) – Hewlett-Packard Co. (NYSE:HPQ) on Wednesday ousted its chairman and chief executive, Carly Fiorina, the architect of a controversial merger with Compaq Computer that never produced the results she promised. Chief Financial Officer Robert Wayman, who was named interim chief executive, said HP did not plan to reverse the merger but left the door open to such a move, saying the board would not be close-minded on strategy changes as it searched for a new CEO. HP has turned in erratic financial results under Fiorina, and the board said its chief concern was to improve "execution" of strategy. But many on Wall Street hope the company will spin off its printing division, which delivers most of HP’s profit. HP shares, which have lost 63 percent of their value since Fiorina became CEO in July 1999, rose as much as 10 percent and were up 6 percent in afternoon trading. Fiorina, 50, resigned after a showdown on Tuesday afternoon, ending a tumultuous five-and-a-half-year reign characterized by an employee and shareholder revolt over the company’s direction. Recognized as one of the most powerful women in business, she had been the only female CEO of a component of the Dow Jones industrial average.

Response:

I remember when she made that remark, when questioned about H-P’s outsourcing of jobs to India, about how American workers aren’t automatically entitled to any jobs at all. True enough, I suppose-but now she has an inkling of how the discarded workers feel. Too bad she (and not they) got a decent severance package.

Response:

Carly was a poster girl for affirmative action. All marketing and no substance. Her corporate success stemmed from good timing – and the big-shot husband she met at AT&T. Carly Fiorina’s Seven Deadly Sins By RICH KARLGAARD February 11, 2005 1. ACTING LIKE A ROCK STAR. In the U.S., only entrepreneurs get to act as rock stars. Hired guns do not. Carly Fiorina failed to grasp this distinction. Here, we celebrate Gates, Buffett, Dell, Ellison, Jobs, Schultz, Fred Smith. . . even Leonardo di Caprio as Howard Hughes — borderline crazies overcoming great odds. We love our entrepreneur rock stars so much we let their sins slide. Carly was excoriated for a boneheaded move — giving Compaq shareholders 37% of HP’s profitable printer division in a swap for Compaq’s flagging PC business. Founder-CEOs are allowed to get away with far worse. Ellison nearly took Oracle down in 1990 by overlooking shoddy accounting. (Oracle is an exemplar of accounting today.) Jobs’s first bold act after reassuming Apple’s reins in 1996 was to buy NeXT Software at an inflated $400 million and kill the company. Because he owned NeXT, Apple’s purchase made him rich. Yet Apple shareholders forgave Jobs because, well, he’s a rock star. And he has made good on that faith. 2. FAILING TO SEE THE CHEAP REVOLUTION. Carly allowed HP to drift onto the wrong side of the defining divide in the global economy. The cheap revolution has two elements: plummeting hardware costs combined with the Web-mediated ability to run world-class operations from anywhere. Dell is on the right side of the cheap revolution divide. It sells powerful servers for under $5,000 and keeps overhead low in Round Rock, Texas, where the average three-bedroom house sells for $200,000. HP sells servers for tens of thousands and keeps high overhead in Palo Alto, Calif., where the average three-bedroom sells for $1,500,000. 3. FAILING TO SEE THE CONSUMER REVOLUTION. A huge shift has occurred in the last five years. The coolest tech products now go straight into the consumer market. Until a few years ago, most got a footing in the business market first: Copiers, PCs and cellphones were expensive products that only became cheap riding the Moore’s Law curve over time. Today, the most transformative products and services go straight for the consumer: Blackberry, Apple iPod, eBay, Orbitz, Google, WiFi and so on. Carly has ineffectively maneuvered HP into this consumer field. 4. OBSESSION WITH SIZE OVER FLEXIBILITY. Carly is blamed for ignoring a tech truism that large mergers never work. Maybe we need to go deeper and challenge the very premise of these mergers: that large scale is a requirement of success in the global economy. By merging with Compaq, Carly clearly believed this. But maybe the opposite is true — that speed and flexibility now trump scale. The cheap revolution has armed startups and small companies with powerful, cheap technology and access to global labor pools. You don’t need a large organizational unit to manage your outsourcing initiative. Just go to www.elance.com. 5. LETTING TALENT GO. The recent passing of Walter Wriston reminds me of a memorable refrain in his book, "The Twilight of Sovereignty." In an era of freely flowing information, "capital will always go where it is welcome and stay where it is well-treated." By capital, he meant money and human capital. Carly mustn’t have read his book. Aside from chasing away shareholder capital, she chased away talent, from Michael Capellas on down. For high-IQ tech companies, talent loss may be the greater sin. The most dynamic — Microsoft and Oracle during the ’80s and ’90s, and Google now — have always been obsessed with recruiting and keeping talent. This week Google said it would rather slow its growth than lower the talent bar. To be fair, Carly didn’t start the talent drain at HP — it began under John Young and continued under Lewis Platt; but she didn’t stop it, either. 6. NOT TOLERATING STRENGTH IN OTHERS. A few months ago, I visited Peter Drucker on his 95th birthday. We talked about his great life’s work — the study of what makes an effective executive. He said the good ones tolerate strength in others; the bad ones don’t. Gates has Steve Ballmer. Michael Dell has Kevin Rollins. Larry Ellison has Jeff Henley. Carly had no one like that. 7. LACK OF FOCUS. We conclude with Drucker’s other great insight: Effective CEOs pick two tasks and devote their energies there. When those tasks are done, they don’t go to #3. They make a new list. One overlooked trick to maintaining focus, Drucker told me, is to cut travel. "Make your reports come to see you. Use technology, it’s cheaper than traveling. I don’t know anybody who can work while traveling. Do you?" Carly, globe-hopping in her Gulfstream, worked 100-hour weeks. But she was focused on too many tasks. Which is no focus at all. —- Mr. Karlgaard is publisher of Forbes magazine and author of "Life 2.0" (Crown Business, 2004).

Response:

Hardpan <hard…@yahoo.com> in news:sk0p011ebgrn1osskbdct37s913p1v9641@4ax.com: >>Hewlett-Packard Ousts CEO Carly Fiorina

only in ‘america’ do a few special ppl receive $21.4 million for being fired…

Response:

Question:

I finally have a plan to hit a real Zoo of an open Mike at this place that has a "Gituar Night". Guy on the phone says first come, first served. So me and my old friend will drop by. Either way I’ll see what it is and as the weather is getting better I’ll be able to bus there in the future if I like the environment which should be good for networking and getting some of my bounce back. At Last! First come first served….but no matter how it goes it will be educational for me and I will hear tips about where appreciative audiences are. Damo

Response:

ooops. Just found out maybe not.

Response:

<damod…@webtv.net> a

Question:

Lap dancing didn’t help finance my PhD but a $6 investment did.  Also, we have saying in Ireland, "before you make up your mind..open it". But I guess they don’t teach you that in ‘counting school’ do they !!

No, but in elementary school they taught us punctuation. In college they taught me European punctuation, so don’t even go there. What is your "PhD" in? A

Response:

Can I play with your tits for free? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

It’s still illegal, even if you did get a few bucks.

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised It’s still illegal, even if you did get a few bucks.

That’s why shortly after the postal inspector comes-a-knocking, the IRS isn’t far behind. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia taxman at negia.net

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.

And if you believe that i’ve got a bridge in Arizona to sell you.l "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds another young boy to victimize."                          referring to Justin                          Timberlake To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address.     —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Peddle your crap somewhere else. Des

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

your post office box will not be getting my $5 !! I am studying Accounting but do not understand your post.  We haven’t got to the chapter on pyramid schemes yet, so perhaps that explains my lack of understanding. Des

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Make Money Fast and Legally Amazing Cash Flow Program AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business. 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list. 3. IS IT RIGHT? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!!! Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH than you thought possible by doing something so easy! IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) J.E. Grey 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada #2) R. Hanson 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada #3) Roy Wiley p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. #4) J. Granger p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 #5) Starr Luu 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 #6) T.N. Meagher 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home based computer and online business and methods of generating income at home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for future CASH.

… read more »

Response:

Not all spam is a scam.  Try it before you critizie it.  I got nearly $3000 dollars in the post over the last few days.  That’s more than I thought I would get within 3 months. I don’t know if more is to come but so far it’s working. And even if I don’t get another cent, I’m happy. Why do you guys have to be so smug and skeptical.  Life’s too short …enjoy it..don’t moan about it.  If you gave it a chance you might be surprised

Response:

its till a scam and you are still a scifosa

Response:

I am studying Accounting but do not understand your post.  We haven’t got to the chapter on pyramid schemes yet, so perhaps that explains my lack of understanding. Des

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Make Money Fast and Legally Amazing Cash Flow Program AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business. 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list. 3. IS IT RIGHT? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!!! Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH than you thought possible by doing something so easy! IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) J.E. Grey 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada #2) R. Hanson 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada #3) Roy Wiley p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. #4) J. Granger p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 #5) Starr Luu 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 #6) T.N. Meagher 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home based computer and online business and methods of generating income at home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for future CASH. (Database or Spreadsheet software.) *3. If you’re really not sure or still think this can’t be for real, please print a copy of this article and give it to someone who really needs the CASH, and see what happens. *4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, it depends on how much you are posting, the more you post, the better the response will be. ***ALSO REMEMBER***SEND US $1 BILL CURRENCY ONLY!!!—OUT TO EVERYONE ON THE LIST, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FROM THE U.S.

Response:

Lap dancing didn’t help finance my PhD but a $6 investment did.  Also, we have saying in Ireland, "before you make up your mind..open it". But I guess they don’t teach you that in ‘counting school’ do they !!

Response:

| 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? | | I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I | would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL

It’s not.  It’s called a pyramid scheme and is illegal. | 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada | 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada | 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland

Postage to Canada twice, postage to Ireland.  More than if they went to the US. | All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH | you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 | Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws.

Despite this it is still illegal in the US. | PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the | honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully | adhering to the directions.

And it is successful becuase in the words of someone famous there is a sucker born every minute. | NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, | either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. | This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service.

Yeah. That service is called fraud. | Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again…

And if you believe they’re going to declare this income i’ve got a bridge in Arizona to sell you. "Finally a member of the Jackson family finds another young boy to victimize."                          referring to Justin                          Timberlake To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address.     —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

tessa stick with lap dancing

Response:

Even a newbie accountant will recognise this as the scam it really is. Ken Russell

| Make Money Fast and Legally | Amazing Cash Flow Program | AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM | | THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! | | THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the | directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! | | Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like | you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you | could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial | investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must | be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It | said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and | addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very | short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the | bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 | newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and | that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though | the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to | be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. | | 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? | | I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I | would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to | try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the | details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal | business. | | 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? | | I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY | LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This | clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing | list. | | 3. IS IT RIGHT? | | Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT | of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, | having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six | $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I | did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was | shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another | thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made | between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total | of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still | growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just | over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 | and 6 stamps!!! | | Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get | the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you | follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH | than you thought possible by doing something so easy! | | IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not | illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! | | PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or | more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful | because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please | continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You | will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your | product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. | | Here are the 4 easy steps to success: | | STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each | piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your | name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US | $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the | bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). | Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should | now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the | above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 | Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is | creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a | legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a | little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it | all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) | and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to | the following addresses: | | | #1) J.E. Grey | 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada | | #2) R. Hanson | 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada | | #3) Roy Wiley | p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. | | #4) J. Granger | p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 | | #5) Starr Luu | 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 | | #6) T.N. Meagher | 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland | | Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the | list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 | becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. | | STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as | close to original as | possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. | All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH | you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 | Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these | steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, | and again. | | PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the | honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully | adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person | of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many | others have received will come your way. | NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, | either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. | This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might | be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to | reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the | directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for | their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your | name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name | reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in | CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the | first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the | list and you’re in business! | | Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. | | ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages | with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the | people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked | to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and | that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, | people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. | This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the | wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also | may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure | you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of | everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups | to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST | POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make | the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge | rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. | | Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… | | "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are | using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? | You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home | based computer and online business and methods of generating income at | home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your | mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of | thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, | keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing | this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups | and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no | longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the | newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, | make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. | | NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is | illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, | explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, | etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of | the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that | restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for | future CASH. (Database or Spreadsheet software.) *3. If you’re really | not sure or still think this can’t be for real, please print a copy of | this article and give it to someone who really needs the CASH, and see | what happens. *4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, | it depends on how much you are posting, the more you post, the better | the response will be. | | ***ALSO REMEMBER***SEND US $1 BILL CURRENCY ONLY!!!—OUT TO EVERYONE | ON THE LIST, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FROM THE U.S. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Make Money Fast and Legally Amazing Cash Flow Program AMAZING INSTANT CASH FLOW PROGRAM THE RESULTS ARE OVERWHELMING!!!! THIS TRULY WORKS!!! Just read through it thoroughly, follow the directions exactly, within 1-3 weeks your CASH FLOW is coming in! Basic Facts A while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of CASH within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00 plus stamps! So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" But like most of us I was curious and kept reading. It said that if you send US $1.00 bill to each of the 6 names and addresses listed in the article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article to at least 300 newsgroups. (There are hundreds of thousands of them out there and that’s quite a large market pool). No catch that is it. Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing. 1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL? I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would actually make any CASH but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business. 2. IS OK WITH THE POST OFFICE OR IS IT MAIL FRAUD? I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See 18, h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list. 3. IS IT RIGHT? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT of CASH … a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!!! So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 … six $1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps … and boy I’m glad I did!!! Within 7 days, I started getting CASH in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon and didn’t give it another thought. But the CASH continued coming in. In my first week I made between $20 to $30. By the end of the second week I had a made a total of $1,000.00. In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This is now my fourth week. and I have made a total of just over $42,000 and it’s still coming in ….. It’s certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!!! Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more CASH than you thought possible by doing something so easy! IMPORTANT: This is not a rip off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk it really works!!!! PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it’s a service. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Also, place your name address and e-mail address on the sheet of paper. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name, address and e-mail address, and an US $1.00 Bill CURRENCY ONLY. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) J.E. Grey 245 Stone Bridge Ct. Fredericton, NB E3A 1J2, Canada #2) R. Hanson 1214 Junor Ave. Saskatoon, SK S7L 7K1, Canada #3) Roy Wiley p.o.box 160 South Beach, Ore. 97366 U.S.A. #4) J. Granger p.p. Box 53 Morrisville, PA 19067 #5) Starr Luu 2330 South Quebec St. Apt. 102, Denver, CO 80231 #6) T.N. Meagher 11 Cluain Mhor, Clonmellon, Navan, Co Meath, Ireland Are You Paying Attention? Good. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc…) and add YOUR NAME as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 300 newsgroups. All you need is 300, but remember, the more you post, the more CASH you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need CASH, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER: That this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are a person of integrity, the program will continue and the CASH that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the US $1 Bill CURENCY ONLY in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of CASH in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 (US $1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you’re in business! Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. ** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending the CASH to the rest of the people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked to knew someone who did that and he only made about $150.00, and that’s after seven or eight weeks! Then he sent the 6 US $1.00 bills, people added him to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10k. This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future CASH. Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a list of everyone that sends you CASH and always keep an eye on the newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly. Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don’t need to cheat the basic idea to make the CASH!! GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is a ton of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again… "People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are using the Internet to advertise your business. What is that business? You are creating a mailing list of people who are interested in home based computer and online business and methods of generating income at home. Remember, people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing list. It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names? That’s up to you." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another US $6.00 to the names stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start posting again. NOTES: *1. In some countries, the export of the country’s exchange is illegal. But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining the above statements (that you have an online business, etc. You may have to pay an extra tax, but that’s OK, the amount of the incoming CASH is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that restriction . *2. You may want to buy mailing and e- mail lists for future CASH. (Database or Spreadsheet software.) *3. If you’re really not sure or still think this can’t be for real, please print a copy of this article and give it to someone who really needs the CASH, and see what happens. *4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, it depends on how much you are posting, the more you post, the better the response will be. ***ALSO REMEMBER***SEND US $1 BILL CURRENCY ONLY!!!—OUT TO EVERYONE ON THE LIST, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT FROM THE U.S.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   -servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it?   Well no.  Your answer had nothing to do with the question.  Given that both want to maximise return why is one method of doing so evil and the other good?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. -I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone?   Where did it come from?   The extracted surplus value of laborers usually.   And what exactly made it possible for the labourers work to have any value let alone value surplus to wages.   This question doesn’t make much sense.   Did you make the investment neccesary to make your work effective? If not they why complain about the one who did?   Because that person is stealing the fruits of your labor. Both the investment and the work, together are needed to produce. No, only labor is "needed" to produce. So it is possible to make steel without any investment? How about computer chips?  Aircraft?  Books?  Telecommunication services?   Yes, yes, yes and yes.  If you are willing to labour, and have the knowledge of how to make these things, you can do it.

  No it is not possible to make steel without any investment.  To make steel you need to make a foundry.  That is an investment.  To make a book you need to buy paper, that is an investment.  To make aircraft you need to spend time designing and testing this is also investment.  The fact that you think that because these things have large labour components means they are not investment just shows your ignorance.   What it’s not possible to do is make any of these things with "investment" and without labour. If you can produce any of these without investment, go ahead.   It has never been done before but maybe you’ll be the first.   I think it has, and can.

  No it hasn’t.  You only think that because you don’t know what investment is.    But this argument would also mean that we can’t produce most of these things without states either, since computer chips, aircraft and telecom have never been produced without state participation in the r&d.

  Not true computer chips were invented in non-government labs, aircraft were not created by government funding and the first government investment in telecoms was not for years after they had operated.   The worker did not produce the full value of the production.  So why should he get the full payment for it? This is assuming there must be some separate person or class above labor to fulfill the function you believe they provide.

  No, it merely assumes that the labourer did not do the planning, production of capital goods, production of raw materials etc. neccessary for his production.  The "Example of Argentina" is an example cited that disproves this thesis.

  No it proves that anyone can run a business profitably if they steal enough. "Investment" never produces, and can not produce, anything at all. Further, there would be no "investment" without labor.  There can easily be labor and production without "investment".   Much less production however and no production of certain things like working phones, insulin, research etc. You might believe it’s "less production", but i don’t think that’s necessarily the case.  And, there’s certainly no good reason why willing laborers could not produce working phones or anything else.

  How would they produce either the landlines or the mobile phone towers? If they work on either of these it’s investment and therefore labour did not produce the working phones, labour and investment did. But ultimately, even if it is "less production", you’re still producing useful goods.  Without labour you’re not.

  Yes, you are producing roots and berries with the occasional rabbit. You aren’t producing venison because that needs spears, and spears are an investment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As is an elementary truism: "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."   It may be "elementary" but that does make it not true.  To say that labour "deserves much the higher consideration" is meaningless. Not at all.  It’s a recognition of the reality of how things are produced, and what actually is the primary driving force of it. All you are saying I didn’t say it.

  Yes you did, just then!  Abe Lincoln said it. is that one form of labour (direct) is to be given higher consideration that another (indirect).  There is no good reason to do this.  Why should the input of someone who laboured, got money and then put that money into higher production be valued less than the person who just laboured?  What is the essential difference? The primary difference is that the labour is what is fundamental and neccessary for production.

  No the primary difference is that one form of labour is direct and the other indirect.  Lincoln is simply recognizing what is primary and what is secondary.  Namely, that the contribution of the person who "got money and put that money into higher production" (the "indirect labourer"?) is worthless unless someone is going to do the labour.

  So what?  The fact that insulin needs a truck driver to deliver it to a diabetic doesn’t make the insulin worthless.  The fact that labour is neccesary to make investment useful does not make investment useless unless there is no labour.  Nor does it make labour more valuable than investment.  There can be many other differences too, but that’s what I think he was getting at.  You can lose the one, and it might be a set back or an advantage or whatever, but if you don’t have labour you have nothing.  So, labour "deserves much the higher consideration".

  Why?  The total value produced is increased by both, so why is one given "much the higher consideration"?  And what does being given a higher consideration mean?  How can the consideration for your input be higher than the market price?   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Josh

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   -servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it?   Well no.  Your answer had nothing to do with the question.  Given that both want to maximise return why is one method of doing so evil and the other good?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. -I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone?   Where did it come from?   The extracted surplus value of laborers usually.   And what exactly made it possible for the labourers work to have any value let alone value surplus to wages.  

This question doesn’t make much sense.   Did you make the investment neccesary to make your work effective? If not they why complain about the one who did?   Because that person is stealing the fruits of your labor. Both the investment and the work, together are needed to produce. No, only labor is "needed" to produce. So it is possible to make steel without any investment? How about computer chips?  Aircraft?  Books?  Telecommunication services?  

Yes, yes, yes and yes.  If you are willing to labour, and have the knowledge of how to make these things, you can do it. What it’s not possible to do is make any of these things with "investment" and without labour. If you can produce any of these without investment, go ahead.   It has never been done before but maybe you’ll be the first.  

I think it has, and can.  But this argument would also mean that we can’t produce most of these things without states either, since computer chips, aircraft and telecom have never been produced without state participation in the r&d. The worker did not produce the full value of the production.  So why should he get the full payment for it?

This is assuming there must be some separate person or class above labor to fulfill the function you believe they provide.  The "Example of Argentina" is an example cited that disproves this thesis. "Investment" never produces, and can not produce, anything at all. Further, there would be no "investment" without labor.  There can easily be labor and production without "investment".   Much less production however and no production of certain things like working phones, insulin, research etc.

You might believe it’s "less production", but i don’t think that’s necessarily the case.  And, there’s certainly no good reason why willing laborers could not produce working phones or anything else. But ultimately, even if it is "less production", you’re still producing useful goods.  Without labour you’re not. As is an elementary truism: "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."   It may be "elementary" but that does make it not true.  To say that labour "deserves much the higher consideration" is meaningless.

Not at all.  It’s a recognition of the reality of how things are produced, and what actually is the primary driving force of it. All you are saying

I didn’t say it.  Abe Lincoln said it. is that one form of labour (direct) is to be given higher consideration that another (indirect).  There is no good reason to do this.  Why should the input of someone who laboured, got money and then put that money into higher production be valued less than the person who just laboured?  What is the essential difference?

The primary difference is that the labour is what is fundamental and neccessary for production.  Lincoln is simply recognizing what is primary and what is secondary.  Namely, that the contribution of the person who "got money and put that money into higher production" (the "indirect labourer"?) is worthless unless someone is going to do the labour.  There can be many other differences too, but that’s what I think he was getting at.  You can lose the one, and it might be a set back or an advantage or whatever, but if you don’t have labour you have nothing.  So, labour "deserves much the higher consideration". Josh

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   -servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it?   Well no.  Your answer had nothing to do with the question.  Given that both want to maximise return why is one method of doing so evil and the other good?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. -I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone?   Where did it come from?  

The extracted surplus value of laborers usually. Did you make the investment neccesary to make your work effective?  If not they why complain about the one who did?  

Because that person is stealing the fruits of your labor. Both the investment and the work, together are needed to produce.

No, only labor is "needed" to produce.   "Investment" never produces, and can not produce, anything at all. Further, there would be no "investment" without labor.  There can easily be labor and production without "investment". As is an elementary truism: "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Josh

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   -servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it?   Well no.  Your answer had nothing to do with the question.  Given that both want to maximise return why is one method of doing so evil and the other good?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. -I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone?   Where did it come from?   The extracted surplus value of laborers usually.

  And what exactly made it possible for the labourers work to have any value let alone value surplus to wages.   Did you make the investment neccesary to make your work effective? If not they why complain about the one who did?   Because that person is stealing the fruits of your labor. Both the investment and the work, together are needed to produce. No, only labor is "needed" to produce.

  So it is possible to make steel without any investment?  How about computer chips?  Aircraft?  Books?  Telecommunication services?  If you can produce any of these without investment, go ahead.  It has never been done before but maybe you’ll be the first.  The worker did not produce the full value of the production.  So why should he get the full payment for it? "Investment" never produces, and can not produce, anything at all. Further, there would be no "investment" without labor.  There can easily be labor and production without "investment".

  Much less production however and no production of certain things like working phones, insulin, research etc. As is an elementary truism: "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

  It may be "elementary" but that does make it not true.  To say that labour "deserves much the higher consideration" is meaningless.  All you are saying is that one form of labour (direct) is to be given higher consideration that another (indirect).  There is no good reason to do this.  Why should the input of someone who laboured, got money and then put that money into higher production be valued less than the person who just laboured?  What is the essential difference? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Josh

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Snapshot of a Nation                 How Argentina’s new president deals with the                occupied factories will be hugely significant                                By Naomi Klein                      Monday April 28, 2003 The Guardian In 1812, bands of British weavers and knitters raided textile mills and smashed industrial machines with their hammers. According to the Luddites, the new mechanised looms had eliminated thousands of jobs and broken communities and deserved to be destroyed. The British government disagreed and called in a force of 14,000 soldiers to brutally repress the worker revolt and protect the machines. Fast-forward two centuries to another textile factory, this one in Buenos Aires. At the Brukman factory, which has been producing men’s suits for 50 years, it’s the riot police who smash the sewing machines and the 58 workers who risk their lives to protect them. Last Monday, the Brukman factory was the site of the worst repression Buenos Aires has seen in almost a year. Police had evicted the workers in the middle of the night and turned the entire block into a military zone guarded by machine guns and attack dogs. Unable to get into the factory and complete an outstanding order for 3,000 pairs of dress trousers, the workers gathered a huge crowd of supporters and announced it was time to go back to work. At 5pm, 50 middle-aged seamstresses in no-nonsense haircuts, sensible shoes and blue work smocks walked up to the black police fence. Someone pushed, the fence fell and the Brukman women, unarmed and arm in arm, slowly walked through. They had only taken a few steps when the police began shooting: tear gas, water cannons, rubber bullets, then lead. The police even charged the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, in their white headscarves embroidered with the names of their "disappeared" children. Dozens of demonstrators were injured and police fired tear gas into a hospital where some had taken refuge. This is a snapshot of Argentina in the week of its presidential elections. Each of the five major candidates is promising to put this crisis-ravaged country back to work. Yet Brukman’s workers are treated as if sewing a grey suit were a capital crime. Why this state Luddism, this rage at machines? Well, Brukman isn’t just any factory, it’s a fabrica ocupada , one of almost 200 factories across the country that have been taken over and run by their workers over the past year and a half. For many, the factories, employing more than 10,000 nationwide and producing everything from tractors to ice cream, are seen not just as an economic alternative, but as a political one as well. "They are afraid of us because we have shown that if we can manage a factory we can also manage a country," Celia Martinez, a Brukman worker, said on Monday night. "That’s why this government decided to repress us." At first glance, Brukman looks like every other garment factory in the world. As in Mexico’s hyper modern maquiladoras and Toronto’s crumbling coat factories, Brukman is filled with women hunched over sewing machines, their eyes straining and fingers flying over fabric and thread. What makes Brukman different are the sounds. There is the familiar roar of machines and the hiss of steam, but there is also Bolivian folk music, coming from a small tape deck in the back of the room, and softly spoken voices, as older workers lean over younger ones, showing them new stitches. "They wouldn’t let us do that before," Martinez says. "They wouldn’t let us get up from our workspaces or listen to music. But why not listen to music, to lift the spirits a bit?" Here in Buenos Aires, every week brings news of a new occupation: a four-star hotel now run by its cleaning staff, a supermarket taken by its clerks, a regional airline about to be turned into a cooperative by the pilots and attendants. In small Trotskyist journals around the world, Argentina’s occupied factories, where the workers have seized the means of production, are giddily hailed as the dawn of a socialist utopia. In large business magazines like the Economist, they are ominously described as a threat to the sacred principle of private property. The truth lies somewhere in between. I n Brukman, for instance, the means of production weren’t seized, they were simply picked up after they had been abandoned by their legal owners. The factory had been in decline for several years, debts to utility companies were piling up, and, over a period of five months, the seamstresses had seen their salaries slashed from 100 pesos a week to a mere two pesos – not enough for the bus fare. O n December 18, the workers decided it was time to demand a travel allowance. The owners, pleading poverty, told the workers to wait at the factory while they looked for the money. "We waited for them until evening. We waited until night," Martinez says. "No one came." After getting the keys from the doorman, Martinez and the other workers slept at the factory. They have been running it every since. They have paid the outstanding bills, attracted new clients and, without profits and management salaries to worry about, managed to pay themselves steady salaries. All these decisions have been made democratically, by vote in open assemblies. "I don’t know why the owners had such a hard time," Martinez says. "I don’t know much about accounting, but for me it’s easy: addition and subtraction." Brukman has come to represent a new kind of labour movement here, one that is not based on the power to stop working (the traditional union tactic), but on the dogged determination to keep working no matter what. It’s a demand that is not driven by dogmatism, but by realism: in a country where 58% of the population is living in poverty, workers know that they are a pay cheque away from having to beg and scavenge to survive. The spectre that is haunting Argentina’s occupied factories is not communism, but indigence. But isn’t it simple theft? After all, these workers didn’t buy the machines, the owners did – if they want to sell them or move them to another country, surely that’s their right. As the federal judge wrote in Brukman’s eviction order: "Life and physical integrity have no supremacy over economic interests." Perhaps unintentionally, he has summed up the naked logic of deregulated globalisation: capital must be free to seek out the lowest wages and most generous incentives, regardless of the toll that process takes on people and communities. The workers in Argentina’s occupied factories have a different vision. Their lawyers argue that the owners of these factories have already violated basic market principles by failing to pay their employees and their creditors, even while collecting huge subsidies from the state. Why can’t the state now insist that the indebted companies’ remaining assets continue to serve the public with steady jobs? Dozens of workers’ cooperatives have already been awarded legal expropriation. Brukman is still fighting. Come to think of it, the Luddites made a similar argument in 1812. The new textile mills put profits for a few before an entire way of life. Those textile workers tried to fight that destructive logic by smashing the machines. The Brukman workers have a much better plan: they want to protect the machines and smash the logic. * Naomi Klein ’s latest book is Fences and Windows (Flamingo) www.nologo.org Source URL: http://www.guardian.co.uk/argentina/story/0,11439,944921,00.html * * * 1) EconomicDemocracy.org is reminded of this cartoon: http://economicdemocracy.org/images/capital.gif 2) Or you can sit back and imagine you live in another world in another planet in another galaxy, and enjoy this shockwave animation: http://www.lrna.org/flash/otherworld.swf 3) Remember, "The Boss Needs You. You Don’t Need The Boss" http://economicdemocracy.org/images/f9.jpg (Thanks to our friends in Paris, http://burn.ucsd.edu/paris.htm) 4) All you law-abiding citizens will love reading this short parable, on How the Miners were Robbed (by John Wheatley, 1907): http://economicdemocracy.org/miners.html 5) Happy labor day from EconomicDemocracy.org! = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily Online 2 hour radio show reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email instead to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   -servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it?

  Well no.  Your answer had nothing to do with the question.  Given that both want to maximise return why is one method of doing so evil and the other good?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. -I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone?

  Where did it come from?  Did you make the investment neccesary to make your work effective?  If not they why complain about the one who did?  Both the investment and the work, together are needed to produce. He does not complain that you get part of the money resulting from his investment so why complain he gets part of the money resulting from your work? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – mowhak "It must always be remembered – and remembered well – that revolution does not mean destruction only. It means destruction plus construction, with the greatest emphasis on the plus." Alexander Berkman, The Russian Tragedy (Berlin: Der Syndikalist, 1922), p. 16.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://1marketsquare.com/CapLP/Rights.shtmlSnapshot of a Nation                How Argentina’s new president deals with the               occupied factories will be hugely significant                               By Naomi Klein                     Monday April 28, 2003 The Guardian … Perhaps unintentionally, he has summed up the naked logic of deregulated globalisation: capital must be free to seek out the lowest wages and most generous incentives, regardless of the toll that process takes on people and communities. The workers in Argentina’s occupied factories have a different vision. Their lawyers argue that the owners of these factories have already violated basic market principles by failing to pay their employees and their creditors, even while collecting huge subsidies from the state. Why can’t the state now insist that the indebted companies’ remaining assets continue to serve the public with steady jobs? Dozens of workers’ cooperatives have already been awarded legal expropriation. Brukman is still fighting. Come to think of it, the Luddites made a similar argument in 1812. The new textile mills put profits for a few before an entire way of life. Those textile workers tried to fight that destructive logic by smashing the machines. The Brukman workers have a much better plan: they want to protect the machines and smash the logic.

I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. How will there be assets if there is no return for the assets? Who will build a factory if there is no profit? Who will work in a factory if they get no wages? Where is the logic in that?

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I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?  

-servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it? Assets serve the public when they produce products and services.

-I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone? mowhak "It must always be remembered – and remembered well – that revolution does not mean destruction only. It means destruction plus construction, with the greatest emphasis on the plus." Alexander Berkman, The Russian Tragedy (Berlin: Der Syndikalist, 1922), p. 16.

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Question:

Suprised. just finised reading this issue and the last issue of fortune. This issue, there was a topic on SAP & Oracle. The messages board have discussed the same topic two months ago. The topics like ‘what are the american jobs gone ?’ seem little too slow for accountants.

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Suprised. just finised reading this issue and the last issue of fortune. This issue, there was a topic on SAP & Oracle. The messages board have discussed the same topic two months ago. The topics like ‘what are the american jobs gone ?’ seem little too slow for accountants.

There have been lots of threads here about jobs – mostly about accounting related jobs. If you have a particular opinion you would like to share and there is no thread running you can certainly start one – and maybe you are. Jim Hudspeth

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… board have discussed the same topic two months ago. The topics like ‘what are the american jobs gone ?’ seem little too slow for accountants.

Your reading the wrong magazine. My recommendation is read Forbes. BTW, the jobs initially went to Mexico and now the PRC. It is one of those "for want of a nail.." trails, for folks who like to do that kind of tracing. The manufacturing gets shipped overseas, and soon you don’t need accountants or auditors. — Boycott list: Belgium, France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, China, Iran, Syria, Hollywood, San Francisco, Massachusetts, New York City, Sierra Club, ACLU, Movies of the first blacklist, Turner, Madonna, S. Crowe, Dixie Chicks, Cher, U2, rapp, Trudeau, Wiley, Disney, ABC news, CBS news, NBC news, CNN, PBS, Sometimes the only influence you have is to say, "No, I’m not buying."

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I believe Forbe is more like a summary of business/finance sections of all newspapers, when fortune is deisgned for accountants and investors.

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I believe Forbe is more like a summary of business/finance sections of all newspapers, when fortune is deisgned for accountants and investors.

That is different than the impression I get. I see Fortune as basically pandering toward the investment community. I see Forbes as reporting the facts and conclusions drawn from those facts after investigation. I’ve always enjoyed reading Forbes, but I’ve always felt shortchanged every time I’ve read Fortune.  YMMV. — Boycott list: Belgium, France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, China, Iran, Syria, Hollywood, San Francisco, Massachusetts, New York City, Sierra Club, ACLU, Movies of the first blacklist, Turner, Madonna, S. Crowe, Dixie Chicks, Cher, U2, rapp, Trudeau, Wiley, Disney, ABC news, CBS news, NBC news, CNN, PBS, Sometimes the only influence you have is to say, "No, I’m not buying."

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Question:

Girlfriend? Girlfriend? If I ever meet a girl named Mountain Dew Well be married Bz

: : "Bz" wrote : Awake….. : : Need more Mountain Dew though : : Gonna be up all night again : : so I’ll be in and out : : Bz : : Sorry I just have to do this : : Mountain Dew your girlfriend eh? And you’ll be up all night? And…. the : rest… : : (yeah it was a bad one, I know… sorry ;P  ) : Hugs : TK : Ps. What *is* Mountain Dew btw? : :

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hey princess, thanks so much hon… it was okay… although i felt a bit stressed at first… i got some sleep, slept most of today and have felt a bit irritable and weird and tired… but its okay, i was just so worried about him, never heard him cry before.. he was in a real mess…. thanks hon m~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "trinity

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This is just my opinion and does not seem to follow the ‘Party’ line.  That is if a hospital requires or even asks that body jewelry is to removed then I will do it.  I will not question nor ask ‘why’ but just remove it.  My health is far more important than a hunk of steel or some other material being imbedded in my skin and tissue as I do know that I can alway be repierced.  That is the long and short of it. I have been fortunate, though, over the last 4mos. or so as I have been in the hospital twice, once for chest pains and possible heart attack (which was ruled out) and the other was for some minor surgery.  Both times I did not have to remove my jewelry (pr 6g nips, 8g pa 5 8g frenum ladder and 2 10g guiches) although I was perfectly prepared to remove what was necessary at any time.  When I was in for the chest pains the hospital personel wanted to take and x-ray and DID ask to have my nip rings taken out.  I said ‘Fine, I just need some plyers.’  The nurse actually responded that that sounded to ‘painful’ and that would work around it.  As a result I did get a great suvenier and that was a copy of my X-ray with the rings very much in the center of things.  BTW, an aside, no doctors prompting, I quit smoking after about 25+yrs ‘cold turkey’.  Hardest thing I’ve ever had to do but I took that event as my bod’s ‘Final Warning’. And no I’m not becoming a ‘Anti-Smoking Nazi’—I enjoyed too much. The last time I was in the hospital was to remove a cyst (in fact just a week ago today).  All the nurse asked was that was there any ‘unseen jewelry’ when I first went into preop.  I said yes and all she asked was to tape it down which was fine with me.  I was prepared to remove them if necessary. Now I know these 2 examples may appear to look like you can leave your jewelry in during hospital stays at all times but I just want to say this I was and I will aways be prepared to remove what is necessary for my health. No questions asked. As I’ve learned over the years—-NEVER PISS OFF piercers, tattooists, nurses or doctors.  They can make your life a living HELL if they want to. P.

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This is just my opinion and does not seem to follow the ‘Party’ line.  

Doesn’t it? [snip interesting experiences] Now I know these 2 examples may appear to look like you can leave your jewelry in during hospital stays at all times but I just want to say this I was and I will aways be prepared to remove what is necessary for my health. No questions asked.

But Paul, to me, your examples are excellent, uh, examples of why a simple question, usually accompanied by an explanation, should be asked, because often everyone can be accomodated with ease. Certainly, to me, there is no question with what wins between jewellery and health, but very often the two are mutually compatible, and if people don’t ask, and don’t educate (i.e., it’s a big hassle, for you and the health care professional to take out the jewellery, and it’s not that big of a deal to keep it in), then there will never be an accomodation for differences. nj"you have what where?"m "I tell you so often that I love the sound  of my name in your mouth."

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Doesn’t it?

Yeah, from my perspective over reading and sometimes responding to this newsgroup as well as reading some other souces over the past 4 or so yrs—it is definitly not the ‘Party’ line.  Certainly, to me, there is no question with what wins between jewellery and health, but very often the two are mutually compatible, and if people don’t ask, and don’t educate (i.e., it’s a big hassle, for you and the health care professional to take out the jewellery, and it’s not that big of a deal to keep it in), then there will never be an accomodation for differences.

I don’t disagree but who am I to trust?  My piercer or my health care professional?  I’ll tell ya right here and now, know some of the crappy peircers that are out there now and even with the best of intentions, their shitty and poor training?  I’ll pick what my Surgeon/Doctor wants anyday when it comes to something he/she needs to do. Again I know this is not the ‘Party’ line and just my opinion. P.

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I have been fortunate, though, over the last 4mos. or so as I have been in the hospital twice, once for chest pains and possible heart attack (which was ruled out) and the other was for some minor surgery.  

Doesn’t sound very fortunate to me. I hope you’re okay.  BTW, an aside, no doctors prompting, I quit smoking after about 25+yrs ‘cold turkey’.  Hardest thing I’ve ever had to do but I took that event as my bod’s ‘Final Warning’. And no I’m not becoming a ‘Anti-Smoking Nazi’—I enjoyed too much.

Kick ass! Good boy. I’ve been almost 100% smoke free for 13 months. I say "almost" because I took a drag off a friend’s cigarette last week. I was very ashamed. I will not be doing it again. Jess

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I have been fortunate, though, over the last 4mos. or so as I have been in the hospital twice, once for chest pains and possible heart attack (which was ruled out) and the other was for some minor surgery. Doesn’t sound very fortunate to me. I hope you’re okay.

Thanks, its was actually quite a scare.  Went to the hospital from work.  It was an aweful experience I wouldn’t wish on anyone.  It was going on for a few day prior.  My brother (who is a Dr.) told me that with smokers the reaction I was getting was not uncommon.  It could have been a esophogus irritation.  In anycase another bit of info I got from the X-ray way that my lungs were very clear for a 25yr smoker.  That in itself was relief  BTW, an aside, no doctors prompting, I quit smoking after about 25+yrs ‘cold turkey’.  Hardest thing I’ve ever had to do but I took that event as my bod’s ‘Final Warning’. And no I’m not becoming a ‘Anti-Smoking Nazi’—I enjoyed too much. Kick ass! Good boy. I’ve been almost 100% smoke free for 13 months. I say "almost" because I took a drag off a friend’s cigarette last week. I was very ashamed.

You should b……wait……nm. CONGRATS!  I can only hope that in 13mos I’ve only had one. P.

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Yeah, from my perspective over reading and sometimes responding to this newsgroup as well as reading some other souces over the past 4 or so yrs—it is definitly not the ‘Party’ line.

Our perceptions are different.  While I have read quite a lot of people who would like to save their piercings, I can’t recall anyone choosing jewellery over proper healthcare. njm:  Certainly, to me, there is no question with what wins between jewellery and health, but very often the two are mutually compatible, and if people don’t ask, and don’t educate (i.e., it’s a big hassle, for you and the health care professional to take out the jewellery, and it’s not that big of a deal to keep it in), then there will never be an accomodation for differences. I don’t disagree but who am I to trust?  My piercer or my health care professional?  I’ll tell ya right here and now, know some of the crappy peircers that are out there now and even with the best of intentions, their shitty and poor training?  I’ll pick what my Surgeon/Doctor wants anyday when it comes to something he/she needs to do.

A sensible course of action indeed.  But, what your Surgeon/Doctor/Generic Health Care Professional wants may very well change when they are given a little more information, e.g., the nurse that wanted you to take out your nipple piercings, when she realized that it wasn’t a simple case of removal, like a butterfly back earring would be, she made the evaluation that it was okay to keep them in, and la, everyone’s happy. I’m questioning your ‘no questions asked’ policy, not your basic ‘get your priorities straight’ one.  No one should be threatened by a patient voicing their concerns about their piercings, or their wish to keep such /if that is reasonably possible/. nj"party, party, party!"m "I tell you so often that I love the sound  of my name in your mouth."

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I don’t disagree but who am I to trust?  My piercer or my health care professional?

I pick…. whichever one is going to be pulling that tongue barbell out of my right main bronchus tomorrow. The worst body jewellery is going to do is obscure an Xray, or catch on a trolley when you’re being shifted around. As long as you don’t need an emergency MRI. Cos if you have a complication (say, a stroke) under anaesthetic, the last thing your providers need to be thinking about is how to get your frenum ladder out before your head MRI. If they remember it at all. Lara "ouch" Hopkins — Lastly, that that us serf of lesson: a little critical spirit with  respect to information is undoubtedly not useless. – Verily it is by Babelfish that we come at wisdom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Check out the AFU FAQ and archive at www.urbanlegends.com <<<

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This is just my opinion and does not seem to follow the ‘Party’ line.  That is if a hospital requires or even asks that body jewelry is to removed then I will do it.  I will not question nor ask ‘why’ but just remove it.  

It is generally a good idea to ask "why" a lot in a hospital. Because often enough, the answer will be "because we always do it like that", in which case you can still turn around and run . Generally, there is no need to let yourself be treated like a little kid. You are not their prisoner, and you can walk out and take your business elsewhere. In many cases, at least . Congrats on stopping smoking! Nina — C’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot.                             Louis Pasteur http://www.chaotropic.net

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I don’t disagree but who am I to trust?  My piercer or my health care professional?  I’ll tell ya right here and now, know some of the crappy peircers that are out there now and even with the best of intentions, their shitty and poor training?  I’ll pick what my Surgeon/Doctor wants anyday when it comes to something he/she needs to do.

*Hi Paul I’ll reckon, from what I have seen, that medical field people are more likely than piercers to be misinformed and judgemental about piercing, aftercare and health risks concerning them. Going to the hospital for surgery, I’d be rather concerned by hospital related infections than complications due to my piercings. I’d also advice to cover them with tape. I’d only make you remove a tongue piercing (temporary) for intubation purposes. Corine — "For four-fifths of our history, our planet was populated by pond scum."     — J.W. Schopf

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I’ve been almost 100% smoke free for 13 months

*Congrats to all quitters. Paul, keep on and resist the urge! Smokes are a cardiovascular proven killer. It doesn’t matter if you are unsuccesfull sometimes, keep quitting Corine, 3 rd day without nicotine patches. — "you can’t handle the RAB." AngieK 4/11/02

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As long as you don’t need an emergency MRI.

*I went to germany in Bad Bentheim 2 weeks ago for an MRI. (short waiting lists) This great german girl let me keep my tragus and daith. She said as long it was gold it was okay..I removed my vertical hood and navel though. Cos if you have a complication (say, a stroke) under anaesthetic, the last thing your providers need to be thinking about is how to get your frenum ladder out before your head MRI. If they remember it at all.

* I vote for education. Every ward should have a piercing handling and removal advice poster like the reanimation posters. Corine — H. L. Mencken: "The capacity of human beings to bore one another seems to be vastly greater than that of any other animal."

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: As long as you don’t need an emergency MRI. : *I went to germany in Bad Bentheim 2 weeks ago for an MRI. (short waiting : lists) : This great german girl let me keep my tragus and daith. : She said as long it was gold it was okay..I removed my vertical hood and : navel though. I would think that as long as it was non-magnetic it would be ok. (Yeah, yeah, I know…. *everything* is magentic if the magnet is strong enough). I suspect that most of this is simply erring on the side of caution due to ignorance on the part of the HCP. : Cos if you have a complication (say, a stroke) under anaesthetic, the : last thing your providers need to be thinking about is how to get your : frenum ladder out before your head MRI. If they remember it at all. : * I vote for education. I’ll second that. However, I don’t really think that’s going to happen until there are more HCP with piercings who are willing to do the research on the topic. : Every ward should have a piercing handling and removal advice poster like : the reanimation posters. While that is a perfectly correct way of referring to the various life saving techniques, it struck me as funny. The first time I saw it the image that went through my head was of goofy looking guy with a box of coloring pencils in a dimly room working on a light board. fpsm — | Fredrich P. Maney              my_last_name AT my_last_name DOT org | |   Do NOT send me HTML formatted E-mail or copies of netnews posts!  | |  Address in header is a spamtrap. Use one in signature for replies. | |  Please review http://www.maney.org/fred/site/uce/ before emailing. |

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Corine, 3 rd day without nicotine patches.

Ooh, you finally did it, too!!!  Congratulations! I also quit (again).  Today is day four.  *sigh* Mara —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Corine, 3 rd day without nicotine patches. Ooh, you finally did it, too!!!  Congratulations! I also quit (again).  Today is day four.  *sigh*

*It’s a killer, last time I managed to stay away from nicotine for 4 months. I was stupid enough to think I could deal with just one, yeah right. Oh well, as long as you keep quitting… I found the nicotine patches to be a real help as I could focus on other things than withdrawal effects  :) Corine —  "That which we are unconscious to becomes our destiny."  Carl Jung

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*It’s a killer, last time I managed to stay away from nicotine for 4 months. I was stupid enough to think I could deal with just one, yeah right.

Last time I quit it was for nearly 3 years.  I was okay bummin’ one here and there.  My downfall was going out and buying a pack. I found the nicotine patches to be a real help as I could focus on other things than withdrawal effects  :)

I’d kill for some nicotine patches.  :( Mara —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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I found the nicotine patches to be a real help as I could focus on other things than withdrawal effects  :)

i’ve been quitting for almost a year now. the physical withdrawal isn’t an issue for me. it’s the way i turn into a psychotic bitch that’s the problem. i need rehab for smokers. I’d kill for some nicotine patches.  :(

come on over. I have a box right here. —Angie a.k.a. destrss "On second thought, I think I am more crazy than my goat." – Remedios Varo

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i’ve been quitting for almost a year now. the physical withdrawal isn’t an issue for me. it’s the way i turn into a psychotic bitch that’s the problem.

*That’s okay, do some RAB. i need rehab for smokers.

*See above advice. Corine — "For four-fifths of our history, our planet was populated by pond scum."     — J.W. Schopf

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i’ve been quitting for almost a year now. the physical withdrawal isn’t an issue for me. it’s the way i turn into a psychotic bitch that’s the problem. *That’s okay, do some RAB.

What??!!?? and ruin my reputation as a nice and helpful RABbit? oh wait… nevermind. —Angie a.k.a. destrss "On second thought, I think I am more crazy than my goat." – Remedios Varo

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve been quitting for almost a year now. the physical withdrawal isn’t an issue for me. it’s the way i turn into a psychotic bitch that’s the problem. *That’s okay, do some RAB. What??!!?? and ruin my reputation as a nice and helpful RABbit? oh wait… nevermind.

*See…it’s that simple. Cheap therapy. Pass your nerves outside homebase. Corine — "you can’t handle the RAB." AngieK 4/11/02

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i’ve been quitting for almost a year now. the physical withdrawal isn’t an issue for me. it’s the way i turn into a psychotic bitch that’s the problem. i need rehab for smokers. I’d kill for some nicotine patches.  :( come on over. I have a box right here.

I’ve actually tried on a number a occassions before.  This time I am determined. As far as the withdrawl is concerned—-just ask anyone that I work with.  I was ‘less than polite’ bordering on psychotic for a couple of weeks.  Now they say that I’m actually a nicer person since  quitting.   Go figure. P.

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I’d kill for some nicotine patches.  :( come on over. I have a box right here.

imma get me some zyban. or, my brother & cousin could move out. that woudl probably also do it. — Ideally giving credence to her hesitant subtext since 2002!

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I’d kill for some nicotine patches.  :( come on over. I have a box right here. imma get me some zyban. or, my brother & cousin could move out. that woudl probably also do it.

*While it’s your call concerning the brother and cousin issue…you might want to reconsider the Zyban thing. I’ve seen recently young persons prescribed Zyban to quit smoking. Both got admitted, one with serious skin rash, one with irregular hartritmes. Both weren’t having much fun. Corine — "For four-fifths of our history, our planet was populated by pond scum."     — J.W. Schopf

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"Paul"  wrote I don’t disagree but who am I to trust?  My piercer or my health care professional?  I’ll tell ya right here and now, know some of the crappy peircers that are out there now and even with the best of intentions, their shitty and poor training?  I’ll pick what my Surgeon/Doctor wants anyday when it comes to something he/she needs to do. Again I know this is not the ‘Party’ line and just my opinion. P.

Quite frankly in this day and age I would never trust a health professional without making damn sure they know what they are doing…..otherwise you go in for a tonsilectomy and come out with triple heart bypass…there are just as many crappy doctors out there as piercers I imagine. Always make informed decisions regardless of who is hacking about at your body. http://queen_of_testing.tripod.com/ " A woman’s mind is cleaner than a man’s. She changes it more often." — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d kill for some nicotine patches.  :( come on over. I have a box right here. imma get me some zyban. or, my brother & cousin could move out. that woudl probably also do it. *While it’s your call concerning the brother and cousin issue…you might want to reconsider the Zyban thing. I’ve seen recently young persons prescribed Zyban to quit smoking. Both got admitted, one with serious skin rash, one with irregular hartritmes. Both weren’t having much fun.

I quit on Zyban. It *RULED*. It’s the same drug as Wellbutrin, the anti-depressant. I’ve never taken one of those before. You have to build it up in your system for a couple of weeks before you quit smoking. It doesn’t actually do anything to help with the nicotine addiction – it just helps with the withdrawal symptoms. When I was taking it – I couldn’t get irritated, couldn’t be annoyed, couldn’t feel frustrated, angsty, anguish. I COULD NOT have a bad day. And I was working 60 hour weeks at the time, with no ill affects on my ability to perform on the job. The prescription I had would have let me take the drug for months and months, but I stopped after 6 weeks. I had a couple of wisdom teeth yanked about a month after I quit smoking, and the Percocet I was taking for pain was too much for me to be taking anything else with. Zyban does have serious documented side effects, it’s definately not for everyone. I’m just sayin it worked great for me. After 1 year without a single puff on a cigarette, I made the conscious decision to be a social smoker. I smoke less than 10 cigarettes in a month, and only in social settings (not around my house, car, workplace, etc). I’m not proud. fr0glet (www.notproud.com)

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Quite frankly in this day and age I would never trust a health professional without making damn sure they know what they are doing…..

In what ‘day and age’ was it ever inappropriate to ask questions.  I don’t believe I ever said that.   I would ask you this, unless you yourself are a HCP, how would you know if they know what they are doing?  I’m not, I did have to go on recomendations and on the referal for my primary Doctor for my recent surgery.  As for my chest pain episode—I had to go where the ambulance took me. otherwise you go in for a tonsilectomy and come out with triple heart bypass…there are just as many crappy doctors out there as piercers I imagine. Always make informed decisions regardless of who is hacking about at your body.

When and where possible you should as questions of everyone you are doing business (and yes health care whether privately run or government controlled is a business).  There are not only crappy HCP and piercers but accountants, builders, IT technicians and every other human institutions.  However, there a many more people who do know what they are doing.  Let’s not discount them. Again, with the chest pain episode, there would have been no choice.  I was fortunate.  With the recent surgery, since I trust my primary HCP, then I would trust his seasoned judgement .  In both cases, if the jewelry had to go then they would have gone.  Adornment vs. health to me there will be no question—-ever.  Again, just my opinion. P. .

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Question:

The industry standard in customizable integrated systems with open source code is UA Corporate Accounting, which offers both Access and SQL7 packages. Because it is pre-eminent as a development platform, there may be customized versions that fit most situations off-the-shelf. An enhancement which might solve part of the pricing problem is http://www.cpaccess.com/enhmnts/ic1020.htm , Inventory Item Pricing Matrix.  The formulas and parameters which yield prices can be modified by ourselves or by your programmers – our enhancements are also open source code. Respectfully,  - Carl Dick www.cpaccess.com 800-997-7944 – - – - "Our industry ‘customization’ is that we inventory a single product but sell it in 3 ways, each one with a different selling price. When sold 1 of the 3 ways, the system calculates the quantity based on other parameters entered by the user (they’re spoiled to this)."

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Question:

Hi, does anyone know how to solve Cost accounting T-account type questions?  I solutions asap if you can help me out. i’ve posted a couple of questions below…  i hope my pathletic attempt to draw the t-accounts work… thanks.

The time you have spent typing this E-mail and sending it three times could have been used reading the material and doing the work yourself.  Sorry i’m cynical – I am taking classes myself, and find I cannot learn unless I DO it! — Cary Hedrick, Accountant "You may soar with eagles, but weasles don’t get caught in jet engines." (

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Hi, does anyone know how to solve Cost accounting T-account type questions?  I solutions asap if you can help me out. i’ve posted a couple of questions below…  i hope my pathletic attempt to draw the t-accounts work… thanks. Q. 1 Use the following information and the T-accounts to solve for the required amounts – all of the information relates to the month of Sept, 1991 – Supplies used: $18,000 – Overhead application rate: 50%  of direct labour costs – All sales were on account – Miscellaneous overhead costs: $22,000 – Direct Labour Cost $200,000 – Markup cost: 25% – The accounts payable account is used only for purchase of stores. – Collection of accounts receivable: $520,000 – Over-applied overhead: $5,000 Use the T accounts to calculate the following: a. overhead applied b. sales c. cost of goods sold d. cost of goods manufactured e. direct materials used f. payment of accounts payable g. indirect labour T accounts: Materials 27,000  |         |         |         | 39,000 Work in Process 8,000  |        |        | 15,000 Finished Goods 11,000  |         |         | 24,000 Cost of Goods Sold          |          |          |          | Overhead Applied          |          |          |          | Overhead Control          |          |          |          |          | Accounts Receivable 55,000  |         |         |         | 35,000 Pre-paid Factory Insurance 6,000   |         |         |         | 4,000 Accrued Factory Payroll          |25,000          |          |          |                 37,000 Accounts Payable          |16,000          |          |          |            21,000 Accumulated Depreciation Manufacturing Equipment                      | 92,000                      |                      |                      |                        105,000

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Question:

Hi Diane A very successful way to follow-up is to send prospects some useful information, then follow that up with a pressure free:  "Do you need any more information at this stage?"   Remember, if you use any pressure you kill it. Repeat 7 times. The time between follow-ups will depend on your products/services. Good luck Mark Metcalf Your Own Virtual In-House Marketing Expertise Now Available. Breakthrough" We also work for accountants, consultants, etc. For more Info, FREE Newsletters, FREE Reports, and FREE Growth Assessment

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I send out follow ups two times within a two week to one month period. You do not want to get your prospects angry and accuse you of spamming. Follow-ups are excellent and a must in online businesses. Some people do not read all of the information or they just set it aside and say yes I will take a look at this again later after I think about it….but some people never go back to it. It is good to remind people of your excellent information or opportunities or services. But do not spam them with your follow-ups. Diane Waltman LadyDi’s Free Weekly Marketing Tips E-Zine http://www.ladydibz.com  on your news server or www.dejanews.com      Also at  www.dakine.demon.nl/mbmm/ Please, reduce quoted text to essential when replying and max line length at 80.

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