Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … As Ron states in his commentary, this is "due process", American style. More like due process, fascist or soviet style. …. You really should go live in another country for a decade.  Maybe a work study program to China, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Burma, or Rwanda. I have had friends

… No, you really ought to go first and experience it first hand.  Maybe the U.N. has a program that would help you.  Sorry, I don’t have a phone number to give you. bon voyage…. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

I am commenting on the practical reality of American jurisprudence; nothing more; nothing less. With no commensurate condemnation of the idea that emoting your way thru a problem is wrong, either, but rather a short anecdote about your son doing the same thing .That would seemingly be an endorsement of Andersen’s tactics, rather than a criticism.

This is real life, not "bean bag".  Rusty Hardin is doing exactly what I would expect a competent criminal defense lawyer to do. Don’t you think merit should be the factor here for consideration? Or how about since your son didn’t actually harm anyone but himself, there woudln’t be any need to cite him, that citing him was a rather extreme position/action given the circumstances? but you likened it to Andersen’s actions, which I think most people here would agree were not moral. I think that lack of objectivity is what I’m trying to drive at. That was, at one time, why accounting was created, right? to safeguard against exaggeration and fudging, and to provide a checkpoint or safeguard of objectivity about a company’s financial position? Admitting that things are different should result, under a system based on principles, in the people who endorse those principles bringing them up and chastising people when they aren’t followed,  not on their tacit endorsement by mentioning how they do the same thing and were successful, don’t you think?

Just who would you have me chastise, and under what authority would you have me do it? The government must prove that Andersen is "guilty as charged, beyond a reasonable doubt", not that Andersen is "guilty of something".   With regards to my son, he readily admitted he hit the bus.  His argument was with the charge – "driving too fast for conditions".  He convinced the judge that his driving speed was both prudent and within the limits of the law.   Had he been charged with driving while wearing athletic shoes he would have been "guilty as charged". Andersen admits they destroyed documents.  They deny they destroyed evidence with intent to obstruct justice.   As a matter of law, the defense in this case would be defective if it did not use every lawful tool available to it, including emotional manipulation Prove this. I don’t see anything anywhere, either in my constitutional law books on rights nor my business law noteds and handouts that says manipulating people is okay.

RULE 3:07 MASSACHUSETTS RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT  CLIENT-LAWYER RELATIONSHIP [Including amendments through 12/01/2000] RULE 1.3 DILIGENCE A lawyer shall act with reasonable diligence and promptness in representing a client. The lawyer should represent a client zealously within the bounds of the law. Comment [1] A lawyer should pursue a matter on behalf of a client despite opposition, obstruction or personal inconvenience to the lawyer, and may take whatever lawful and ethical measures are required to vindicate a client’s cause or endeavor. A lawyer should act with commitment and dedication to the interests of the client and with zeal in advocacy upon the client’s behalf. http://www.state.ma.us/obcbbo/rpc1.htm#Rule%201.3 If you can prove, based on an authoritative source, that emotional manipulation is not lawful or not ethical I will discuss the matter further. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – .  It is the job of the jury to sort through the tears and mystification and to determine the facts. And the job of every person to be honest and forthright too, you know, to have charachter. You are leaving that out here, I noticed. You have no legitimate quarrel with me here.  If you don’t like what I’m saying you have a quarrel with our law and our system. No, I have a quarrel with you over morals, and your seeming evasion of that in your post.

It takes two to quarrel, and I’m not going to engage you on this issue. You are free to advocate any law, system or process you want, however you also have a duty to attempt a little accuracy in attribution. I agree, but that is what I’m doing. Do you remember a ittle while back when a student postd that you seem to be in denial about what is going on in accounting, and how he felt you kept evading topics that would implicate or accounting with responsibility for their outcomes? D oyou see why?

I don’t remember the post you are referring to.  You are certainly free to provide me with a specific reminder (date, title, etc). — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

In view of the nearly total lack of effective compliance and enforcement of IAS in Europe (AKA

Question:

There are some downloadable pdf files at http://accountingmalpractice.com/ that will probably shed some light on this subject.

Jim,         Those were the best articles I’ve read in a while.  Many thanks. Frank KIrk

Response:

Just a thought, but with audit fees of upwards of a million dollars A WEEK, could even the most good intentioned auditor stay pure?  (That million a week is, by the way, my minimum acceptable offer for work, in case anyone wanted to know.)

I’m not sure the amount matters, because the real issue is whether the payor of the fee gains an automatic influence on the auditor.  As I’ve noted, it still seems the majority of CPAs would answer yes to that question if we are talking about a life insurance agent who accepts a commission from the insurer.  In fact, we can get downright indignant about the "unprofessionalism" of someone giving advice to the client with such an obvious conflict (the insurance company pays the bills and therefore is assumed to have the agent’s ear). Of course, when the issue turns to the users of an auditor’s report (generally outside lenders or investors), we don’t seem to see the same problem with the fact that our fee comes from another party whose interests are potentially greatly at odds with the ultimate user. I have concerns when we concentrate on only the large figures–because by talking in terms of $1 million per week, it becomes easy to dismiss the problem as a Big 5 only problem.  However, having actually been involved in the decision to terminate a client that made up 10% of a small firm’s fees, I know that the vast majority of firms are exposed to at least one client whose loss would be keenly felt by the CPAs. And it’s not just the partners–at the time we made that decision, I was not a partner, but I knew that if we lost that client there were likely going to be fewer CPAs on staff. The other problem with large figures is that we also set up a situation where the Big 5 can also wriggle their way out of the problem.  Because, in fact, $52 million is not a material fee to Andersen *as a whole* despite the fact that it is a very material fee to the specific CPAs (and office) involved.

Response:

Just a thought, but with audit fees of upwards of a million dollars A WEEK, could even the most good intentioned auditor stay pure?  (That million a week is, by the way, my minimum acceptable offer for work, in case anyone wanted to know.) Leroy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems one of the big firms got caught advising clients to classify the doors on toilet stalls as "movable partitions" in order to qualify them for investment credit. I believe that was the old Ernst & Whinney (Big 8 days) component depreciation system <grin.  Of course, there was a Tax Court case a couple of years ago that has essentially revived the concept, though now for speeding up depreciation rather than getting a credit. Actually, those types of positions *are* proper ones for a tax advocate to pursue.  And, as the recent appellate court decisions show, some of the most roundly criticized deals have now been given a "stamp of approval" by two circuits with decision logic that would appear to cover most other packages that were pushed by those groups. However, the real problem is whether the same organization can be both an *advocate* (which is what you should be doing in tax and consulting work) and an *independent attestor* (the role in audits, reviews and compilations). And, as we’ve noted, the part that is being generally ignored in the concentration on the Big 5 is that, in fact, tax work seems some of the most likely work to create a tension between the independent attestor (who may have a duty to see that SFAS 5 disclosures are made) and the advocate (who may have a duty to see such disclosure is *not* made in order to protect tax adviser-client priviledge under the 1997 Act).

Response:

I’ve thought about it, but I haven’t heard anything that is there that would overcome my main problem, 56 year old WASP male with most of my experience in government audit.  I also am handicapped by having the rare ability of actually being able to find things.  Not a good attribute for either internal or external auditors in today’s market. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *         Your tagline is interesting.  Have you considered moving to NC?  I  realize that you may have to get used to the sun rising over the ocean rather than setting, but there’s plenty of jobs around here.  BUT, if you’re going to be another annoying bad driver, stay home!!  <g

Response:

No, I am convinced that MSNBC has its own agenda and I find it far too difficult to filter the facts out from the "view."

…         You’re right.  Have you been watching MSNBC’s coverage

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

I’m not disagreeing with you, and this should be interesting to see how it plays out, BUT, Andersen is not going to be a passive object in this morality play.  Andersen has a very competent group of internal & external lawyers who will be very aggressive in looking out for their interests. Also, Andersen has not been stingy in sewing the manure of the political proce$$. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They have professional indemnity insurance to cover such contingencies.         I wouldn’t be too sure about this.  First, Andersen may have plenty of coverage, but I doubt if they have enough to cover this mess.  Second, although I’m not an attorney and it’s been a long time since I’ve taken business law, but under the concept of contributory negligence, if the someone can show that Andersen is at least partially responsible, the insurance companies may not pay anything.         Maybe someone who knows more about this can clear it up. Frank Kirk

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

Also, Andersen has not been stingy in sewing the manure of the political proce$$.

        You’re right.  Have you been watching MSNBC’s coverage of the Enron hearings? Each time a politician appears, a sidebar is flashed on the screen with how much Andersen contributed to that politician. Frank Kirk

Response:

*             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

        Your tagline is interesting.  Have you considered moving to NC?  I  realize that you may have to get used to the sun rising over the ocean rather than setting, but there’s plenty of jobs around here.  BUT, if you’re going to be another annoying bad driver, stay home!!  <g  

Response:

They have professional indemnity insurance to cover such contingencies.

        I wouldn’t be too sure about this.  First, Andersen may have plenty of coverage, but I doubt if they have enough to cover this mess.  Second, although I’m not an attorney and it’s been a long time since I’ve taken business law, but under the concept of contributory negligence, if the someone can show that Andersen is at least partially responsible, the insurance companies may not pay anything.         Maybe someone who knows more about this can clear it up. Frank Kirk

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They have professional indemnity insurance to cover such contingencies. I wouldn’t be too sure about this.  First, Andersen may have plenty of coverage, but I doubt if they have enough to cover this mess.  Second, although I’m not an attorney and it’s been a long time since I’ve taken business law, but under the concept of contributory negligence, if the someone can show that Andersen is at least partially responsible, the insurance companies may not pay anything. Maybe someone who knows more about this can clear it up. Frank Kirk

There are some downloadable pdf files at http://accountingmalpractice.com/ that will probably shed some light on this subject. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

I am a professional accountant and wish to clarify something about the profession. Arthur Anderson is a highly respectable and responsible professional

It’s Andersen, not Anderson. firm of extremely well educated men and women who charge big fees and who earn huge amounts of money. Sometimes they are too gullible to challenge the management about things they dont fully understand. In this case they were dealing with

Sometimes, but not this time. con artists and indeed they were naieve and rash to certify the accounts of a business they really didnt understand. They are the ones who should be held responsible for the losses of the investors. They gave these crooks a clean bill of health which the stock market relied on.

Everyone involved should be held responsible for his/her wrong doing. They have professional indemnity insurance to cover such contingencies.

I thought the Big 5 were pretty much self insuring. They have shown themselves to be unstreetwise and should have asked obvious questions about how a small backwater business can quickly become top league with mumbo jumbo flim flam talk about selling bandwith and other commodities which nobody undestood. They were conned and their stupidity led to the stock holders getting conned. basically they were blinded by Ley and Skilling etc and accepted their assurances about things without any verification. Andersons must carry the can.

Andersen’s auditors, in my opinion, knew exactly what was going on. They weren’t blinded by anything but avarice. Accountants elsewhere should re evaluate their clients and look hard at high fliers who talk big and try to hide losses by capitalising them as goodwill or some other fancy name .

True enough. Profits can be measured. Once an accountant starts to accept assurances from smooth talking managers he is on thin ice and he risks deceiving the investors.

Also true enough but irrelevant to the Enron case. Regards, Bill

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Sorry, but I don’t buy that. I deal with the Arthur Andersens and DeLoitte & Touches and all the other big firms of the accounting world on a fairly regular basis, and I can tell you that the consulting side of their business makes money by pushing aggressive positions.  Very, very aggressive positions, so aggressive, in fact, that a big piece of my job is saying, no. I’m not saying that this is their fault, only, but it’s unquestionably the case that they went into this with their eyes wide open and their profit motive in full gear.

Thanks John, Good to hear from someone on the other side of the table. I remember a case a few years ago that some found a little crappy.   It seems one of the big firms got caught advising clients to classify the doors on toilet stalls as "movable partitions" in order to qualify them for investment credit. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

It seems one of the big firms got caught advising clients to classify the doors on toilet stalls as "movable partitions" in order to qualify them for investment credit.

I believe that was the old Ernst & Whinney (Big 8 days) component depreciation system <grin.  Of course, there was a Tax Court case a couple of years ago that has essentially revived the concept, though now for speeding up depreciation rather than getting a credit. Actually, those types of positions *are* proper ones for a tax advocate to pursue.  And, as the recent appellate court decisions show, some of the most roundly criticized deals have now been given a "stamp of approval" by two circuits with decision logic that would appear to cover most other packages that were pushed by those groups. However, the real problem is whether the same organization can be both an *advocate* (which is what you should be doing in tax and consulting work) and an *independent attestor* (the role in audits, reviews and compilations).   And, as we’ve noted, the part that is being generally ignored in the concentration on the Big 5 is that, in fact, tax work seems some of the most likely work to create a tension between the independent attestor (who may have a duty to see that SFAS 5 disclosures are made) and the advocate (who may have a duty to see such disclosure is *not* made in order to protect tax adviser-client priviledge under the 1997 Act).

Response:

I am a professional accountant and wish to clarify something about the profession. Arthur Anderson is a highly respectable and responsible professional firm of extremely well educated men and women who charge big fees and who earn huge amounts of money. Sometimes they are too gullible to challenge the management about things they dont fully understand. In this case they were dealing with con artists and indeed they were naieve and rash to certify the accounts of a business they really didnt understand. They are the ones who should be held responsible for the losses of the investors. They gave these crooks a clean bill of health which the stock market relied on. They have professional indemnity insurance to cover such contingencies. They have shown themselves to be unstreetwise and should have asked obvious questions about how a small backwater business can quickly become top league with mumbo jumbo flim flam talk about selling bandwith and other commodities which nobody undestood. They were conned and their stupidity led to the stock holders getting conned. basically they were blinded by Ley and Skilling etc and accepted their assurances about things without any verification. Andersons must carry the can. Accountants elsewhere should re evaluate their clients and look hard at high fliers who talk big and try to hide losses by capitalising them as goodwill or some other fancy name . Profits can be measured. Once an accountant starts to accept assurances from smooth talking managers he is on thin ice and he risks deceiving the investors.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since when was it a crime not to use the return portion of the ticket? Firstly many airlines absolutely forbid their sales agents from knowingly selling a throwaway return segment. Pop into your local Midway counter for example and ask them. Insults aside, how common is this as an issue, or is it something specific to US airlines? On several occasions travel agents have suggested using return tickets as one-way tickets. I have had airline telephone staff be happy to re-confirm forward only portions of a ticket knowing the return portion wasn’t going to be used (LH in this case).

Won’t happen on AA, Delta or US Airways at least. BTW: most of the world will not have a ‘local Midway counter’ so it is probably not the smartest thing to say in an aus.aviation group

BTW yourself Les and thanks for the gratuitous advice but your on the wrong tram. If you’d been paying proper attention you’d have been well aware that the poster to whom my remarks were specifically addressed is not a million miles from a ‘local Midway counter’. Giving lip to Nurse when you’ve not got your facts straight is to quote yourself " probably not the smartest thing to say in an aus.aviation group " However you and the rest of the world may find Midways terms here: http://www.midwayair.com/contract.html Kisses Sister Blue

Response:

I am sorry – this seems like bollocks to me. I can understand if they chase you for the first portion if, for instance, you rip the first portion out and then hand over the second portion of the ticket for the first sector you fly, but charge you if you don’t use the RTN on the second portion of the ticket….this cannot be right. If you have got a refund, perhaps, but this business about the requirement to return has gotta be wrong. Otherwise every single no show even on full fare could be charged by the same token if they don’t return, and yet they can even get refunds on their ticket portions. Can anyone give me a concrete example of where it happened and no refund had been issued against the same unused second portion of the ticket? Seb —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not sure if this is within the charter of this newsgroup … A friend and his fiancee want to come back to Australia, in early Feb 2002, after having been in the US for a couple of years. Trouble is, all of the one way tickets on that route are really expensive.  Currently the cheapest fare is about $AU3500 each. Buy a round the world ticket, or a cheap return ticket with cash or check (purchased from a bank), and just don’t ever use the second half. They can come after you for the other part, but if you pay cash, they are going to have a real tough time finding you or collecting from you. ????? Since when was it a crime not to use the return portion of the ticket? It violates the tariff which is the  contract. now we can argue how rational that all is (no more rational then most fares, and no less either), but those are in fact the rules.  Wonder what happens if you report it as lost and just never get the replacement issued…… Who’s going to come after you?? I think you would be surprised.  Ever wonder what happens to all those bits of paper in the ticket?  They end up in a place called Revenue accounting, and their job is also revenue management. They can (and will) bill you if they can find you or your credit card. It may take a year or two, but they will certainly attempt to catch up with you. For something which you have paid for but just not used??? Sorry, can’t see it ever happening. Now if someone is stupid enough to ask for a refund on the unused portion, maybe. But to be charged more for no- showing? I think not — Trevor Fenn To Email me add an extra green to the address above. "Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"                           The Star Spangled Banner                             Francis Scott Key

Response:

On 23 Nov 2001, Head Nurse wrote in aus.aviation: " 21N  IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE RESERVATIONS REP TO 22N  *NEVER SOLICIT* OR KNOWINGLY CONSTRUCT BACK-TO-BACK,   23N  HIDDEN CITY, OR THROW-AWAY BOOKINGS.  SHOULD A CUSTOMER [...] All well and good, but I’m still a little lost as to why an airline would get so uptight about someone booking/paying for a return, and making a no-show for same. Anyone got an idea what the big deal is? breach

Having recieved a rather large credit card charge once because the good people at revenue accounting had lost one of the bits of paper, I would not underestimate the risk. It takes revenue accounting a LONG time to fit all the bits together (upwards of a year). You are not tripped up because you are a no show, you are caught because the return coupon never gets used and never makes it to revenue accounting as a result.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not sure if this is within the charter of this newsgroup … A friend and his fiancee want to come back to Australia, in early Feb 2002, after having been in the US for a couple of years. Trouble is, all of the one way tickets on that route are really expensive.  Currently the cheapest fare is about $AU3500 each. Buy a round the world ticket, or a cheap return ticket with cash or check (purchased from a bank), and just don’t ever use the second half. They can come after you for the other part, but if you pay cash, they are going to have a real tough time finding you or collecting from you. ????? Since when was it a crime not to use the return portion of the ticket? It violates the tariff which is the  contract. now we can argue how rational that all is (no more rational then most fares, and no less either), but those are in fact the rules.  Wonder what happens if you report it as lost and just never get the replacement issued…… Who’s going to come after you?? I think you would be surprised.  Ever wonder what happens to all those bits of paper in the ticket?  They end up in a place called Revenue accounting, and their job is also revenue management. They can (and will) bill you if they can find you or your credit card. It may take a year or two, but they will certainly attempt to catch up with you.

For something which you have paid for but just not used??? Sorry, can’t see it ever happening. Now if someone is stupid enough to ask for a refund on the unused portion, maybe. But to be charged more for no- showing? I think not — Trevor Fenn To Email me add an extra green to the address above. "Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"                           The Star Spangled Banner                             Francis Scott Key                    

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not sure if this is within the charter of this newsgroup … A friend and his fiancee want to come back to Australia, in early Feb 2002, after having been in the US for a couple of years. Trouble is, all of the one way tickets on that route are really expensive.  Currently the cheapest fare is about $AU3500 each. Buy a round the world ticket, or a cheap return ticket with cash or check (purchased from a bank), and just don’t ever use the second half. They can come after you for the other part, but if you pay cash, they are going to have a real tough time finding you or collecting from you. ????? Since when was it a crime not to use the return portion of the ticket?

It violates the tariff which is the  contract. now we can argue how rational that all is (no more rational then most fares, and no less either), but those are in fact the rules.  Wonder what happens if you report it as lost and just never get the replacement issued…… Who’s going to come after you??

I think you would be surprised.  Ever wonder what happens to all those bits of paper in the ticket?  They end up in a place called Revenue accounting, and their job is also revenue management. They can (and will) bill you if they can find you or your credit card. It may take a year or two, but they will certainly attempt to catch up with you.

Response:

????? Since when was it a crime not to use the return portion of the ticket?

Goodnes gracious me – RU sure you’re in the aviation business? Firstly many airlines absolutely forbid their sales agents from knowingly selling a throwaway return segment. Pop into your local Midway counter for example and ask them. Secondly you need to understand that an airline ticket is a contract between the pax and the airline and with rights and obligations on both parties.By purchasing a ticket or accepting transportation, the customer agrees to be bound thereby If you do not complete your journey or even attempt to depart without intention to complete the journey you are in breach of contract – they say. Who’s going to come after you??

They (the airline) reserve the right to – Cancel any remaining portion of your itinerary,  Confiscate your ticket,  Refuse to board you or your baggage, or  Charge you the difference between what you paid and the one-way fare that would normally have applied to your trip – pretty easy to do too if they’ve got your credit card details. Airlines have another option &#8211; your travel agent.  In their business agreement with the airline, your travel agent agrees to abide by their ticketing rules.  Issuing throwaway tickets is a violation of such agreement and therefore, the airline has the right to debit your travel agent for the difference between what you paid and the fare that normally would have applied to your trip.   This debit, of course will be passed on to you. Pretty stupid I know but even more intrigueing is how come you’ve not heard of all this ridiculous shit?

Response:

simon lai said..  sl Trouble is, all of the one way tickets on that route  sl are really expensive.  Currently the cheapest fare is  sl about $AU3500 each. Yeah, swim. Seriously, I had the same thing, except that I paid for someone to fly out here from JFK for a wedding. The ticket went from around $2,800 to $4,000 overnight and stayed that way. Finally we paid for the ticket. A week or so later the price had dropped back down to under $3,000. We got a refund on the difference. Look at 2 way tickets. Might be a cheaper option. Then see if you can cash in the unused portion when you get home. But, take out a "t" for email reply

Response:

Star Alliance RTW tickets vary in price according to country of purchase. One purchased in the US will be very expensive.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – buy a return? Or somthing like a star alliacne round the world light, (about $2200 Aussie) and allows 26000 miles . I am not sure if this is within the charter of this newsgroup … A friend and his fiancee want to come back to Australia, in early Feb 2002, after having been in the US for a couple of years. Trouble is, all of the one way tickets on that route are really expensive.  Currently the cheapest fare is about $AU3500 each. Any suggestions on how to get this down? TIA Simon Simon Lai Synatech Pty Ltd newsjl.at.synatech.com.au

Response:

????? Since when was it a crime not to use the return portion of the ticket? Goodnes gracious me – RU sure you’re in the aviation business? Firstly many airlines absolutely forbid their sales agents from knowingly selling a throwaway return segment. Pop into your local Midway counter for example and ask them.

Well who’s going to tell them why you buy the ticket that you’re not coming back? Secondly you need to understand that an airline ticket is a contract between the pax and the airline and with rights and obligations on both parties.By purchasing a ticket or accepting transportation, the customer agrees to be bound thereby If you do not complete your journey or even attempt to depart without intention to complete the journey you are in breach of contract – they say. Who’s going to come after you?? They (the airline) reserve the right to – Cancel any remaining portion of your itinerary,

The last leg of a return ticket after you no show for the flight? Go ahead, cancel it. See if I care! Confiscate your ticket,

Can’t, it was thrown in the trash weeks ago when I got off the 1st sector Refuse to board you or your baggage, or

I failed to show for the flight, go ahead and refuse to board me and my bags Charge you the difference between what you paid and the one-way fare that would normally have applied to your trip – pretty easy to do too if they’ve got your credit card details.

because I missed my flight and had to find another means to get home you want to charge me more??? My Lawyer and I will see you in court! Airlines have another option &#8211; your travel agent.  In their business agreement with the airline, your travel agent agrees to abide by their ticketing rules.  Issuing throwaway tickets is a violation of such agreement and therefore, the airline has the right to debit your travel agent for the difference between what you paid and the fare that normally would have applied to your trip.   This debit, of course will be passed on to you.

You have paid for a seat which will either go empty or will be filled by someone else who has also paid for the seat thus doubling it’s revenue. In theory they may have the means to do something, in the real world it never happens. That’s what no-shows are all about. — Trevor Fenn To Email me add an extra green to the address above. "Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"                           The Star Spangled Banner                             Francis Scott Key                    

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not sure if this is within the charter of this newsgroup … A friend and his fiancee want to come back to Australia, in early Feb 2002, after having been in the US for a couple of years. Trouble is, all of the one way tickets on that route are really expensive.  Currently the cheapest fare is about $AU3500 each. Buy a round the world ticket, or a cheap return ticket with cash or check (purchased from a bank), and just don’t ever use the second half. They can come after you for the other part, but if you pay cash, they are going to have a real tough time finding you or collecting from you.

????? Since when was it a crime not to use the return portion of the ticket? Who’s going to come after you?? — Trevor Fenn To Email me add an extra green to the address above. "Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"                           The Star Spangled Banner                             Francis Scott Key                    

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Why do you refer to everyone who doesn’t agree with you as a wanker?  Have any of them ever been rude to you? Is it your upbringing to rude to people with whom you have never met but none less have a minor disagreement?  Did you mother call you that when she caught you in the toilet as a teenager? It is really boring.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ????? Since when was it a crime not to use the return portion of the ticket? Firstly many airlines absolutely forbid their sales agents from knowingly selling a throwaway return segment. Thats the travel agent’s problem, wanker. Pop into your local Midway counter for example and ask them. Cant, wanker. Well who’s going to tell them why you buy the ticket that you’re not coming back? Nowadays of course nobody does. Wrong again, wanker. But once upon a time pax did – especially when responding to the widespread practice of agents openly touting the scam. Taint a scam. Perfectly legal, wanker. That’s why the above prohibition was introduced. Thats the travel agent’s problem, wanker. eg with apologies for the caps – directly from the AA internal reservations manual – That’s AA’s problem, wanker. " 21N  IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE RESERVATIONS REP TO  22N  *NEVER SOLICIT* OR KNOWINGLY CONSTRUCT BACK-TO-BACK,  23N  HIDDEN CITY, OR THROW-AWAY BOOKINGS.  SHOULD A CUSTOMER  24N  REQUEST ANY OF THESE TYPES OF BOOKINGS, YOU MUST REFUSE  25N  TO BOOK THE BACK-TO-BACK, HIDDEN CITY OR THROW-AWAY  26N  RESERVATION. And they’ll just book it with someone else without saying that they dont plan to use the return, wanker.  27N  .  28N  BACK-TO-BACK, HIDDEN CITY AND THROW-AWAY PRACTICES ARE  29N  A BREACH OF A PASSENGER*S CONTRACT WITH AA. Wrong. Wota packa wankers.  APPLICABLE  30N  FARE RULES FLATLY PROHIBIT BACK-TO-BACK, HIDDEN CITY AND  31N  THROW-AWAY TICKETING." But booking a return fare and not using half of it is perfectly legal, wanker. Secondly you need to understand that an airline ticket is a contract between the pax and the airline and with rights and obligations on both parties. Wrong on using every leg booked. By purchasing a ticket or accepting transportation, the customer agrees to be bound thereby Wrong on using every leg booked. It doesnt even say that, so it cant be claimed to be a breach of any invisible ‘contract’ If you do not complete your journey or even attempt to depart without intention to complete the journey you are in breach of contract – they say. And only fools are so stupid that they buy that utterly mindless bullshit. Who’s going to come after you?? They (the airline) reserve the right to – Cancel any remaining portion of your itinerary, The last leg of a return ticket after you no show for the flight? Go ahead, cancel it. See if I care! Fine – so long as you don’t intend flying XYZ Air again – ever. Wota fucking wanker. Confiscate your ticket, Can’t, it was thrown in the trash weeks ago when I got off the 1st sector Refuse to board you or your baggage, or I failed to show for the flight, go ahead and refuse to board me and my bags Fine – if you’ve left home permanently. Wota fucking wanker. Charge you the difference between what you paid and the one-way fare that would normally have applied to your trip – pretty easy to do too if they’ve got your credit card details. Dead easy to get the card issuer to do a chargeback too. because I missed my flight and had to find another means to get home you want to charge me more??? My Lawyer and I will see you in court! It WAS in the terms and conditions of carriage Wrong again. – and now that you’ve been warned about it you can’t even plead that it wasn’t brought to your attention. <g Wrong again. You aint even shown that its in anything except a completely irrelevant pile of shit WRT to TRAVEL AGENTS. You have paid for a seat which will either go empty or will be filled by someone else who has also paid for the seat thus doubling it’s revenue. Irrelevant to your breach of contract No breach of contract. – the fare conditions are there in black & white – bloody pages of them sometimes. No breach of any contract. In theory they may have the means to do something, in the real world it never happens. Your right of course, it would not be good PR, So your original shit remains shit. Pity about the smell. but they DO have the stick to beat you with Wrong again. – and you did ask.  :-) Wota fucking wanker.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ????? Since when was it a crime not to use the return portion of the ticket? Firstly many airlines absolutely forbid their sales agents from knowingly selling a throwaway return segment. Pop into your local Midway counter for example and ask them. Well who’s going to tell them why you buy the ticket that you’re not coming back?

Nowadays of course nobody does. But once upon a time pax did – especially when responding to the widespread practice of agents openly touting the scam. That’s why the above prohibition was introduced. eg with apologies for the caps – directly from the AA internal reservations manual – " 21N  IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE RESERVATIONS REP TO  22N  *NEVER SOLICIT* OR KNOWINGLY CONSTRUCT BACK-TO-BACK,    23N  HIDDEN CITY, OR THROW-AWAY BOOKINGS.  SHOULD A CUSTOMER  24N  REQUEST ANY OF THESE TYPES OF BOOKINGS, YOU MUST REFUSE  25N  TO BOOK THE BACK-TO-BACK, HIDDEN CITY OR THROW-AWAY  26N  RESERVATION.  27N  .  28N  BACK-TO-BACK, HIDDEN CITY AND THROW-AWAY PRACTICES ARE  29N  A BREACH OF A PASSENGER*S CONTRACT WITH AA.  APPLICABLE  30N  FARE RULES FLATLY PROHIBIT BACK-TO-BACK, HIDDEN CITY AND  31N  THROW-AWAY TICKETING." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Secondly you need to understand that an airline ticket is a contract between the pax and the airline and with rights and obligations on both parties.By purchasing a ticket or accepting transportation, the customer agrees to be bound thereby If you do not complete your journey or even attempt to depart without intention to complete the journey you are in breach of contract – they say. Who’s going to come after you?? They (the airline) reserve the right to – Cancel any remaining portion of your itinerary, The last leg of a return ticket after you no show for the flight? Go ahead, cancel it. See if I care!

Fine – so long as you don’t intend flying XYZ Air again – ever. Confiscate your ticket, Can’t, it was thrown in the trash weeks ago when I got off the 1st sector Refuse to board you or your baggage, or I failed to show for the flight, go ahead and refuse to board me and my bags

Fine – if you’ve left home permanently. Charge you the difference between what you paid and the one-way fare that would normally have applied to your trip – pretty easy to do too if they’ve got your credit card details. because I missed my flight and had to find another means to get home you want to charge me more??? My Lawyer and I will see you in court!

It WAS in the terms and conditions of carriage – and now that you’ve been warned about it you can’t even plead that it wasn’t brought to your attention. <g You have paid for a seat which will either go empty or will be filled by someone else who has also paid for the seat thus doubling it’s

revenue. Irrelevant to your breach of contract – the fare conditions are there in black & white – bloody pages of them sometimes. In theory they may have the means to do something, in the real world it never happens.

Your right of course, it would not be good PR,  but they DO have the stick to beat you with – and you did ask.  :-)

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I am not sure if this is within the charter of this newsgroup … A friend and his fiancee want to come back to Australia, in early Feb 2002, after having been in the US for a couple of years. Trouble is, all of the one way tickets on that route are really expensive.  Currently the cheapest fare is about $AU3500 each. Any suggestions on how to get this down? TIA Simon Simon Lai Synatech Pty Ltd newsjl.at.synatech.com.au

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buy a return? Or somthing like a star alliacne round the world light, (about $2200 Aussie) and allows 26000 miles .

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not sure if this is within the charter of this newsgroup … A friend and his fiancee want to come back to Australia, in early Feb 2002, after having been in the US for a couple of years. Trouble is, all of the one way tickets on that route are really expensive.  Currently the cheapest fare is about $AU3500 each. Any suggestions on how to get this down? TIA Simon Simon Lai Synatech Pty Ltd newsjl.at.synatech.com.au

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buy a return? Or somthing like a star alliacne round the world light, (about $2200 Aussie) and allows 26000 miles .

Thanks for the suggestion, but this was considered and a return is no cheaper and almost the same price.  Round the world has not been looked at but I suspect it is no cheaper.  Perhaps airfares in Australia are just cheap compared with US airfares? Simon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not sure if this is within the charter of this newsgroup … A friend and his fiancee want to come back to Australia, in early Feb 2002, after having been in the US for a couple of years. Trouble is, all of the one way tickets on that route are really expensive.  Currently the cheapest fare is about $AU3500 each. Any suggestions on how to get this down? TIA Simon Simon Lai Synatech Pty Ltd newsjl.at.synatech.com.au

– Simon Lai Synatech Pty Ltd newsjl.at.synatech.com.au

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I am not sure if this is within the charter of this newsgroup … A friend and his fiancee want to come back to Australia, in early Feb 2002, after having been in the US for a couple of years. Trouble is, all of the one way tickets on that route are really expensive.  Currently the cheapest fare is about $AU3500 each.

Buy a round the world ticket, or a cheap return ticket with cash or check (purchased from a bank), and just don’t ever use the second half. They can come after you for the other part, but if you pay cash, they are going to have a real tough time finding you or collecting from you.

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Question:

I haven

Question:

youre college experience sounds quite a bit like mine was. Couldn’t talk to people before then or whgile there. Still can’t.

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I have found that, being as shy as I am, that mixing with groups is very difficult. Going out and mixing with people is a lot easier said then done. I feel a lot like this guy Matt. When I was in college I was in a major that was predominantely female, but I never went out with any of them. I barely socialized with any of them. I went to one of the biggest university’s in the country and went on exactly 2 dates. Both were one time things. Meeting people seems to be impossible no matter where I am. I am almost always doing things alone. All of the friends I grew up are married and have kids now, so it’s hard to get together with them. I wish I could tell this guy something good, but if I did I would be lying.

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"Matt" <m…@iname.com> wrote in message <news:qVoB7.322849$j65.86086049@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > Anybody know of any good ways to get out this hell? (that doesn’t involve > killing myself)? > Matt

A lot of people have given good advice to you already, such as going to a gym on campus and excercising, etc. However, the one thing that really helped me was getting a job on campus. This broke up the routine that is generally bringing you down. First of all, my supervisors are very supportive people who will work around my schedule. Second of all, it allowed me to interact with people on a more consistent basis. Before, I could weeks without saying a word to anyone, besides "I’ll have a #5, supersized….." Generally, there are also other students who will be working with you, and this will allow you to converse and meet other students, and maybe you can develop some kind of social life from that. And at the very least, you can have some extra spending money. Out of all the things I have tried in college, getting a job is the thing that has helped most.

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hey mate i know wat u mean , i can relate to alot of what u are saying . if you ever need to talk email or im me cos id like 2 help, hope things will get better for you at uni etc . by the way what is the depression newsgroup u mentioned

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"naturallyweird" <naturallywe…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:d29812ea.0110241136.3b97ec48@posting.google.com… > I partially agree.  If you can carry yourself as someone who is cool > (regardless of how many ‘friends’ you have), others will approach. …. >If you keep that in > mind, paradoxically you will likely be more appealing to others.

That is the biggest load of pig crap i’ve ever heard. You don’t make friends by NOT trying.

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"Matt" <m…@iname.com> wrote in message <news:knGB7.334435$j65.87816730@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > "naturallyweird" <naturallywe…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:d29812ea.0110241136.3b97ec48@posting.google.com… > > I partially agree.  If you can carry yourself as someone who is cool > > (regardless of how many ‘friends’ you have), others will approach. >  …. > >If you keep that in > > mind, paradoxically you will likely be more appealing to others. > That is the biggest load of pig crap i’ve ever heard. You don’t make friends > by NOT trying.

Where did I say that you shouldn’t try?  My point is that, when interacting with others, you need to be very casual.  It will make you appear mysterious (to those inclined to like you in the first place), thus getting them to do much of the work for you (and, remember, they may have the power to invite you into friendship networks).  Look – shybies rarely have much in their lives to discuss, and interrogating others is bad.  Thus – as opposed to doing nothing (which I don’t advocate) – a mix of a few questions and a few tidbits of interesting info is the best way for getting others interested.

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The thing is, a few months ago people were telling me "hang in there, you’re going to university pretty soon, it’s gonna be a different environment, things are going to be better". I predicted that this is bullshit, and i’m going to hate all my classes and make no friends. I tried to fight this becoming true, but it did nonetheless. Don’t tell me to switch majors or something, because the truth is, this program is what appeals to me the most. (better said, this is what i would hate the least) And don’t blame me for the fact that i didn’t approach people and make friends in time, because it was impossible, firstly because almost everyone already knew each other from residence (which i am not in), but most importantly, my illness was so bad that i was incapable of looking at another person without wanting to tear their head off. Kinda hard to make friends that way. And my horrible lack of social skill otherwise, did not help much in this either. Anyhoo, i got an increase in my Celexa dosage, which seems to be helping a bit (i guess). But everyone is now unapproachable, because they are all always surrounded by friends. I can’t just join them out of nowhere, because then i would be the outsider. The only way it would work, if i approached people individually, but like i said, the only people at this point who are not constantly ALWAYS surrounded by friends at this point, two months into the year, are LOSERS like me! The last thing i need is friends that will just bring me even more down. I considered joining clubs so i can meet people with common interests, but the fact is, i am not interested in anything. What depresses me even more is the fact that when i was rejected by that girl this spring/summer, i was told "you’re going to be in university next year, there’s lots of girls there". Hehe, not in engineering! And the girls in other programs, well, you don’t really see them at all, unless you’re in residence, which i’m not. I was planning to drop in on classes when i have time, on courses for programs that have more girls in it, and meet some there, but then it occured to me "what the hell am i talking about, I can’t even find friends in a huge lecture hall". It’s the same problem as i described above. Damnit. Every fucking day is exactly the same. All alone by myself all day….i go to school, listen to a bunch of borning lectures, stare at a bunch of people who HAVE friends, always surrounded by them, and therefore unapproachable, come home, do a bunch of painful homework that i hate or something of the sort, then go to sleep wishing i will die in my sleep. I hate it when people tell me that "it’s bound to get better, since it can’t get any worse". What kind of stupidass statement is that? What the hell are they basing that on? Anybody know of any good ways to get out this hell? (that doesn’t involve killing myself)? Matt

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maddman…@yahoo.com (maddman) wrote in message <news:bea807ca.0110240642.c19a082@posting.google.com>… > "Matt" <m…@iname.com> wrote in message <news:qVoB7.322849$j65.86086049@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > > The thing is, a few months ago people were telling me "hang in there, you’re > > going to university pretty soon, it’s gonna be a different environment, > > things are going to be better". I predicted that this is bullshit, and i’m > > going to hate all my classes and make no friends. I tried to fight this > > becoming true, but it did nonetheless. > So you made a prediction, and it came true.  Self fulfilling prophecy > my man.  Negative self talk is BAD – it will screw you up before you > even get started.

There is no point in being this harsh on him.  He clearly didn’t know how to accomplish the things he wanted to do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Don’t tell me to switch majors or something, because the truth is, this > > program is what appeals to me the most. (better said, this is what i would > > hate the least) > Bah – do what you love.  Anything else would be foolish. > > And don’t blame me for the fact that i didn’t approach people and make > > friends in time, because it was impossible, firstly because almost everyone > > already knew each other from residence (which i am not in), but most > > importantly, my illness was so bad that i was incapable of looking at > > another person without wanting to tear their head off. Kinda hard to make > > friends that way. And my horrible lack of social skill otherwise, did not > > help much in this either. > > Anyhoo, i got an increase in my Celexa dosage, which seems to be helping a > > bit (i guess). > > But everyone is now unapproachable, because they are all always surrounded > > by friends. I can’t just join them out of nowhere, because then i would be > > the outsider. The only way it would work, if i approached people > > individually, but like i said, the only people at this point who are not > > constantly ALWAYS surrounded by friends at this point, two months into the > > year, are LOSERS like me! The last thing i need is friends that will just > > bring me > > even more down. > SCREECH!  Stop RIGHT NOW.  You are assassinating your self image.  Let > me get this straight.  Only losers don’t have a horde of friends > around them.  You don’t have a horde of friends around you, so you’re > a loser.  THere are other people that don’t have hordes of friends, > but they must be losers too. > Bull-fucking-shit.  THe only one who decides if you’re a loser is YOU. >  These other guys – maybe they are thinking the same thing you are, > maybe they feel left out of they crowds too.  Make your own crowd, > talk to them, give them a chance.  Give yourself a chance.

I partially agree.  If you can carry yourself as someone who is cool (regardless of how many ‘friends’ you have), others will approach. ‘Friends’ are overrated, anyway.  (Connections are usually superficial, and their loyalties are fleeting.) If you keep that in mind, paradoxically you will likely be more appealing to others.  (As it is in dating, neediness is bad when trying to make friends.) > > I considered joining clubs so i can meet people with common interests, but > > the fact is, i am not interested in anything. > Nothing at all?  C’mon, if your looking for buddies and not especially > chicks, you can even join up in geeky things, like LUGS and such. > From what CVB says, anime conventions sound like decent hunting > grounds too.

There ought to be some college message boards that discuss things in which you may be interested.  (New computer technologies, perhaps.) My biggest piece of advice is to move on campus next semester, with at least one roommate whom you have carefully selected, if you can stomach such an arrangement.

Response:

"Laura" <lmandtheb…@mailandnews.com> wrote in message

news:1a465f08.0110240125.4a085182@posting.google.com… > I’m sorry. I don’t know what Celexa is, but is it for depression? Are > you seeing someone for that?

Yes and yes. I am seeing a doctor (gp), and just started seeing a counciller. >. Consider approaching people based on > *your* interest in them, rather than on their apparent availability.

That’s the idea, but i don’t know how to approach them. Do you?

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"Matt" <m…@iname.com> wrote in message <news:qVoB7.322849$j65.86086049@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > The thing is, a few months ago people were telling me "hang in there, you’re > going to university pretty soon, it’s gonna be a different environment, > things are going to be better". I predicted that this is bullshit, and i’m > going to hate all my classes and make no friends. I tried to fight this > becoming true, but it did nonetheless.

So you made a prediction, and it came true.  Self fulfilling prophecy my man.  Negative self talk is BAD – it will screw you up before you even get started. > Don’t tell me to switch majors or something, because the truth is, this > program is what appeals to me the most. (better said, this is what i would > hate the least)

Bah – do what you love.  Anything else would be foolish. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And don’t blame me for the fact that i didn’t approach people and make > friends in time, because it was impossible, firstly because almost everyone > already knew each other from residence (which i am not in), but most > importantly, my illness was so bad that i was incapable of looking at > another person without wanting to tear their head off. Kinda hard to make > friends that way. And my horrible lack of social skill otherwise, did not > help much in this either. > Anyhoo, i got an increase in my Celexa dosage, which seems to be helping a > bit (i guess). > But everyone is now unapproachable, because they are all always surrounded > by friends. I can’t just join them out of nowhere, because then i would be > the outsider. The only way it would work, if i approached people > individually, but like i said, the only people at this point who are not > constantly ALWAYS surrounded by friends at this point, two months into the > year, are LOSERS like me! The last thing i need is friends that will just > bring me > even more down.

SCREECH!  Stop RIGHT NOW.  You are assassinating your self image.  Let me get this straight.  Only losers don’t have a horde of friends around them.  You don’t have a horde of friends around you, so you’re a loser.  THere are other people that don’t have hordes of friends, but they must be losers too. Bull-fucking-shit.  THe only one who decides if you’re a loser is YOU.  These other guys – maybe they are thinking the same thing you are, maybe they feel left out of they crowds too.  Make your own crowd, talk to them, give them a chance.  Give yourself a chance. > I considered joining clubs so i can meet people with common interests, but > the fact is, i am not interested in anything.

Nothing at all?  C’mon, if your looking for buddies and not especially chicks, you can even join up in geeky things, like LUGS and such. From what CVB says, anime conventions sound like decent hunting grounds too. > What depresses me even more is the fact that when i was rejected by that > girl this spring/summer, i was told "you’re going to be in university next > year, there’s lots of girls there". Hehe, not in engineering!

LOL – former networking student attesting to that! And the girls > in other programs, well, you don’t really see them at all, unless you’re in > residence, which i’m not. I was planning to drop in on classes when i have > time, on courses for programs that have more girls in it, and meet some > there, but then it occured to me "what the hell am i talking about, I can’t > even find friends in a huge lecture hall". It’s the same problem as i > described above.

Try the library, student center, concerts, other things on campus. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Damnit. > Every fucking day is exactly the same. > All alone by myself all day….i go to school, listen to a bunch of borning > lectures, stare at a bunch of people who HAVE friends, always surrounded by > them, and therefore unapproachable, come home, do a bunch of painful > homework that i hate or something of the sort, then go to sleep wishing i > will die in my sleep. > I hate it when people tell me that "it’s bound to get better, since it can’t > get any worse". What kind of stupidass statement is that? What the hell are > they basing that on? > Anybody know of any good ways to get out this hell? (that doesn’t involve > killing myself)? > Matt

You are unhappy, right?  The only way into social circles is to socialize.  Realize that yes, you might get embarassed.  You might get rejected.  But are either of those things worse than the solitude you have now? One problem for shy people is that it is basic human nature to seek the familiar.  That’s why large crowd make shybies nervous – not familiar, might be dangerous (or even MUST be dangerous, depending). Even if it is unpleasant, we will seek the familiar if left to our own devices. The way out is to push at your comfort zone.  Do something every day to push at your comfort level.  Ask someone for the time, say hello to a stranger, ask someone if you can join them in the cafeteria, whatever pushes your boundaries.  Before long, your comfort zone has changed to include other people. Good luck man, maddman

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"maddman" <maddman…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:bea807ca.0110240642.c19a082@posting.google.com… > SCREECH!  Stop RIGHT NOW.  You are assassinating your self image.  Let > me get this straight.  Only losers don’t have a horde of friends > around them.  You don’t have a horde of friends around you, so you’re > a loser.  THere are other people that don’t have hordes of friends, > but they must be losers too.

My point was, i don’t need friends like that, who will bring me down, but the opposite kind of people, who are social, and/or in rez, so they can get me invited to keg parties in rez and stuff. The other kind of people won’t get me anywhere socially. Besides I normally can’t stand people who are similar to me in such ways.

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>Every fucking day is exactly the same. >All alone by myself all day….i go to school, listen to a bunch of borning >lectures, stare at a bunch of people who HAVE friends, always surrounded by >them, and therefore unapproachable, come home, do a bunch of painful >homework that i hate or something of the sort, then go to sleep wishing i >will die in my sleep.

This is what my college years consisted of. I made it through and so will you. I wasn’t too interested in any of the girls in my classes either. I spent weeks without saying a word. Who would I have talked to, and why would I want to talk to them anyway? It’s hard to gain any motivation in such a situation. I was in accounting……I didn’t really want to talk accounting with anyone. I doubt you’re exactly anxious to rap about engineering with your peers, either. There was nothing to say to these people. They were a bunch of conservative, one-dimensional people who think the Cure is something you get at a doctor’s office. >I hate it when people tell me that "it’s bound to get better, since it can’t >get any worse". What kind of stupidass statement is that? What the hell are >they basing that on? >Anybody know of any good ways to get out this hell? (that doesn’t involve >killing myself)?

Go to the campus gym. Exercise. If you can gain the nerve, ask some girl how to use a machine or something. I never could (and still can’t) gain the nerve, but maybe you can. At least there are often attractive girls in the gym, which is a lot more than I can say for engineering or accounting courses.

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"Trance909" <trance…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20011023225802.14330.00000814@mb-cf.aol.com… > without saying a word. Who would I have talked to, and why would I want to talk > to them anyway? It’s hard to gain any motivation in such a situation. I was in > accounting……I didn’t really want to talk accounting with anyone. I doubt > you’re exactly anxious to rap about engineering with your peers, either.

Well, actually, i would want to talk to them about stuff, maybe not engineering, but whatever. I would like to be their friend. But i don’t see how it’s possible to join them, with them having friends of their own, and always being around them. > Go to the campus gym. Exercise.

I did that today…. > At least there are often attractive girls in the gym, which is a > lot more than I can say for engineering or accounting courses.

…and there weren’t any (not at the time anyway).

Response:

Matt <m…@iname.com> wrote: > But everyone is now unapproachable, because they are all always surrounded > by friends. I can’t just join them out of nowhere, because then i would be > the outsider. The only way it would work, if i approached people > individually, but like i said, the only people at this point who are not > constantly ALWAYS surrounded by friends at this point, two months into the > year, are LOSERS like me! The last thing i need is friends that will just > bring me > even more down.

Yeah, it’s terrible, the feeling of being surrounded by so many happy normal people and being completely alone. > What depresses me even more is the fact that when i was rejected by that > girl this spring/summer, i was told "you’re going to be in university next > year, there’s lots of girls there". Hehe, not in engineering! And the girls > in other programs, well, you don’t really see them at all, unless you’re in > residence, which i’m not. I was planning to drop in on classes when i have > time, on courses for programs that have more girls in it, and meet some > there, but then it occured to me "what the hell am i talking about, I can’t > even find friends in a huge lecture hall". It’s the same problem as i > described above.

Engineering has hardly any girls in it and the few there are, are of course, "in high demand".  Once you get in the work force, it’s no better.  Worse yet, most women don’t really seem to "get it" or be very interested in talking about it either.

Response:

"Matt" <m…@iname.com> wrote in message <news:qVoB7.322849$j65.86086049@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > But everyone is now unapproachable, because they are all always surrounded > by friends. I can’t just join them out of nowhere, because then i would be > the outsider. The only way it would work, if i approached people > individually, but like i said, the only people at this point who are not > constantly ALWAYS surrounded by friends at this point, two months into the > year, are LOSERS like me! The last thing i need is friends that will just > bring me > even more down.

That’s not true. Being around people a lot can be oppressive to your average introvert — a lot of people *choose* not to be particularly social. That may not be the case with you, but you shouldn’t feel as though you’re a loser because you’re not doing what crowds of people are doing. > I considered joining clubs so i can meet people with common interests, but > the fact is, i am not interested in anything. > What depresses me even more is the fact that when i was rejected by that > girl this spring/summer, i was told "you’re going to be in university next > year, there’s lots of girls there". Hehe, not in engineering! And the girls > in other programs, well, you don’t really see them at all, unless you’re in > residence, which i’m not. I was planning to drop in on classes when i have > time, on courses for programs that have more girls in it, and meet some > there, but then it occured to me "what the hell am i talking about, I can’t > even find friends in a huge lecture hall". It’s the same problem as i > described above.

It’s much harder in a huge lecture hall to connect with people than it is in a small classroom. It’s hard, though, regardless. I’m sorry you’re finding it so difficult. > Damnit. > Every fucking day is exactly the same. > All alone by myself all day….i go to school, listen to a bunch of borning > lectures, stare at a bunch of people who HAVE friends, always surrounded by > them, and therefore unapproachable, come home, do a bunch of painful > homework that i hate or something of the sort, then go to sleep wishing i > will die in my sleep. > I hate it when people tell me that "it’s bound to get better, since it can’t > get any worse". What kind of stupidass statement is that? What the hell are > they basing that on?

They’re trying. People don’t know what to say. > Anybody know of any good ways to get out this hell? (that doesn’t involve > killing myself)? > Matt

I’m sorry. I don’t know what Celexa is, but is it for depression? Are you seeing someone for that? This is a difficult time for you and you should have whatever support you can find in the real world. Please don’t feel as though the fact that people have friends means they’re unapproachable. Some people can cope with being on their own; other people can’t, so they latch onto the first person or group that comes along — that doesn’t mean they’re lasting friendships. A lot of people are probably still looking for friends, they’re just looking out from the safety of a group. Consider approaching people based on *your* interest in them, rather than on their apparent availability. lm

Response:

Question:

Someday in the future, I hope to own my own garage and make all my money servicing cars.  It takes two things to do this; an education, and of course, money.  Anyone with knowledge in this area understands that it takes BIG money to set up an automotive garage.  One single piece of equipment can run THOUSANDS!!! Computerized wheel balancers, fancy diagnostic equipment, tire mounting machines, and computerised alignment machines. ALL are absolutely necessary! My point is this, Is there any limit as to how much money the bank will loan you?  I’m not setting up a coffee shop here, it WILL take hundreds of thousands of dollars just to begin!!!  Any information would be appreciated. —Joe ‘93 Chevy Blazer 4×4 ‘87 Polaris Indy 400

Response:

It is good to see this kind of entrepreneur spirit. Although I am not in the garage business as you are planning to do, I do know a thing or two about starting/running a business. Banks rarely lend any unsecured money.  Although you see ads every where about this helping hand they seem to offer, in reality, it will always be harder than you think to secure any type of financing for any, especially new, businesses. The question should not be what kind of limit is there for a loan, the question is how much financing do you REALLY need for a successful business. Stat with a business plan and decide how much money you need. Hope this is helpful. Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someday in the future, I hope to own my own garage and make all my money servicing cars.  It takes two things to do this; an education, and of course, money.  Anyone with knowledge in this area understands that it takes BIG money to set up an automotive garage.  One single piece of equipment can run THOUSANDS!!! Computerized wheel balancers, fancy diagnostic equipment, tire mounting machines, and computerised alignment machines. ALL are absolutely necessary! My point is this, Is there any limit as to how much money the bank will loan you?  I’m not setting up a coffee shop here, it WILL take hundreds of thousands of dollars just to begin!!!  Any information would be appreciated. —Joe ‘93 Chevy Blazer 4×4 ‘87 Polaris Indy 400

Response:

Joe, I would suggest starting out from your home if that’s possible. Tell friends, family, others, etc. that you’d be willing to fix their vehicles at a discount and guarantee your work.  Try to build up the clientele and gain some business experience in the mean time.  There’s no better experience than learning by doing it. If you are the wrench type, I would suggest taking an accounting class.  It doesn’t have to be the CPA type stuff, just the type to run a small business.  You probably won’t need an accounting program, but it will help to streamline things.  Also take a tax class and learn about the do’s/don’ts when it comes to business taxes. As for loans, the banks would like to see what type of collateral you have to put up against the loan.  I believe they will only put up an equal amount to what you have in assets.  You would also need a business plan.  Check out your local SBA (Small Business dministration). They have a lot of the information that you might need even info on guarantee loans. Check out other newsgroups, specifically the ones that deal with business. Lastly, not all of the equipment that you stated are necessary.  Just pick something specific, start small and grow.  Expect the first year to 3 years to be the roughest, unless you’re lucky. Good Luck, SikEng ps.  There’s more stuff, but take your time and start reading. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someday in the future, I hope to own my own garage and make all my money servicing cars.  It takes two things to do this; an education, and of course, money.  Anyone with knowledge in this area understands that it takes BIG money to set up an automotive garage.  One single piece of equipment can run THOUSANDS!!! Computerized wheel balancers, fancy diagnostic equipment, tire mounting machines, and computerised alignment machines. ALL are absolutely necessary! My point is this, Is there any limit as to how much money the bank will loan you?  I’m not setting up a coffee shop here, it WILL take hundreds of thousands of dollars just to begin!!!  Any information would be appreciated. —Joe ‘93 Chevy Blazer 4×4 ‘87 Polaris Indy 400

Before you buy.

Response:

Hi, Do you have good collateral? As a first time starter, even with collateral, it is almost impossible. There is a course in this repspect how to go about starting own business. As an example my brother is running an oil change joint(not a franchise). If you use certain brand oil exclusively as a major product(does not mean you can’t sell other brand), the supplier will give you a machine such as tranny oil recycler. There are all kinds of deals you can make not spending your money but nowadays, to work on cars you need to know mechanics as well as electronics. I think knowledge of electronics is becoming more and more important. Any self run business is tough these days but it can be successful. My wife is running a small business using her back in medical field. She is making a killing. Doing VERY well. More money(not everything), more free time, you name it. Like everything you need bit of luck too. She is at it for 10 years and no regret whatsoever. Having expert friends(accountants, lawyers, business ropes, etc.) was a big plus. Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someday in the future, I hope to own my own garage and make all my money servicing cars.  It takes two things to do this; an education, and of course, money.  Anyone with knowledge in this area understands that it takes BIG money to set up an automotive garage.  One single piece of equipment can run THOUSANDS!!! Computerized wheel balancers, fancy diagnostic equipment, tire mounting machines, and computerised alignment machines. ALL are absolutely necessary! My point is this, Is there any limit as to how much money the bank will loan you?  I’m not setting up a coffee shop here, it WILL take hundreds of thousands of dollars just to begin!!!  Any information would be appreciated. —Joe ‘93 Chevy Blazer 4×4 ‘87 Polaris Indy 400

Response:

Question:

I’d been a little down lately, everything seems to be going kinda crappy lately.  So, Friday, I took a road trip to go visit a friend of mine who lives several hours away, I hadn’t seen him for a long time.  By the time I got there, it was late, so we just hung out and watched some videos, and I, of course, talked through the entirety of both movies. We slept in the next morning and spent the next day outside, went hiking.  I exhausted my entire repetoire of (unintentional) irritating behavior through out the day.  He didn’t get upset with me.  Later, I asked him why he’s never lost his temper with me, like a lot people do.  His answer was, "I like it.  You keep me entertained."  This is a friend who always has a hug for me, and is always sure to let me know he cares.  His roomate also made me an Easter basket. I was supposed to be back in town today, my family was getting together.  I got very delayed on the way back, and was over 2 hours late.  When I got to my parents’ house, I apologized for being late, and my aunt told me that it was ok, and that everyone was just glad I was there.  We had lots of the famous mile-a-minute family conversation, and everyone got along.  Not only that, but I got the first real, home-cooked meal I’ve had for a very long time, plus a ‘care package’ to take home (Yay! Grandma cookies!!). This weekend, I noticed that I have a lot of people in my life who really love me and accept me for who I am, with all my maddening faults and everything.  Sometimes, it must be hard for them to understand why I act the way I do.  It’s so easy to get upset when well-meaning friends and family tell you what they think is best for you and what you should do.  I’m starting to see this in a different light as I get older, as much as it used to piss me off when I was younger.  Just the fact that they care makes it a lot easier to live with everything when things aren’t going well.  I feel very lucky.  I had a very beautiful weekend.

Response:

That’s very wonderful news!   You know, what you said about talking through every minute of the videos sounds like me.  My family and friends don’t like to watch anything with me because I do that.  I feel I’m not enjoying it fully unless I laugh and talk alot.  They roll their eyes or get quiet. That is one trait, plus my impulsive, rambling talking, where I say things I regret, that makes me think I may have ADD.  My son is diagnosed as having it, and my other son who is 25 may have it, and I’ve wondered if they got it from me.  I’m pretty organized tho and get a lot done.  I had my share of trouble in school and still struggle to learn new things when they are tedious to me.  I just push myself to learn what I need to on computer and bookkeeping/accounting etc. My hyper mouth has always made me feel as if something is wrong with me, could it be ADD or compulsive?  I also interrupt and dominate conversations even tho I try not to.  I can hardly end a phone conversation.  I feel as if I must constantly empty my mind verbally. Anyone with ADD who has these traits? — Colette

Response:

" I noticed that I have a lot of people in my life who really love me and accept me for who I am, with all my maddening faults and everything." I think it was Shakespearwho said that you should measure a man’s (person’s) wealth not by what they have, but by what they would never give up.  It sounds to me as if you are a wealthy person! I’m glad that you took the time to take care of yourself. Sean Before you buy.

Response:

We slept in the next morning and spent the next day outside, went hiking.  I exhausted my entire repetoire of (unintentional) irritating behavior through out the day.  He didn’t get upset with me.  Later, I asked him why he’s never lost his temper with me, like a lot people do.  His answer was, "I like it.  You keep me entertained."

Now this friend is a keeper! — "After long thought and much perplexity, to be very brief was all that she could determine on with any confidence of safety."      – Jane Austen in _Northanger Abbey_,

Response:

My hyper mouth has always made me feel as if something is wrong with me, could it be ADD or compulsive?  I also interrupt and dominate conversations even tho I try not to.  I can hardly end a phone conversation.  I feel as if I must constantly empty my mind verbally. Anyone with ADD who has these traits?

Sounds a lot like me.  It’s an ADHD thing.  There are ways to learn the social skills that ADHDers tend to miss. — Nessa — does fuzzy logic tickle

Response:

We slept in the next morning and spent the next day outside, went hiking.   I exhausted my entire repetoire of (unintentional) irritating behavior through out the day.  He didn’t get upset with me.  Later, I asked him why he’s never lost his temper with me, like a lot people do.  His answer was, "I like it.  You keep me entertained." Now this friend is a keeper!

My friends say that they all love me and wouldn’t change my ‘qurikiness’ since life with me is NEVER BORING. Problem is that you can’t expect everyone to adapt to you and learn to accept your quirks.   ADHDers have to learn to interact with everyone on their terms… it makes life easier in the long run. It’s the learning that is a hard thing…  I know I am working on those skills now. — Nessa — If trains stop at trains stations, what happens at work stations?

Response:

Thanks, you pencil-necked geek, you. Sh*t, I hope one day *my* sons grow up to write such things about me. LJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d been a little down lately, everything seems to be going kinda crappy lately.  So, Friday, I took a road trip to go visit a friend of mine who lives several hours away, I hadn’t seen him for a long time.  By the time I got there, it was late, so we just hung out and watched some videos, and I, of course, talked through the entirety of both movies. We slept in the next morning and spent the next day outside, went hiking.  I exhausted my entire repetoire of (unintentional) irritating behavior through out the day.  He didn’t get upset with me.  Later, I asked him why he’s never lost his temper with me, like a lot people do.  His answer was, "I like it.  You keep me entertained."  This is a friend who always has a hug for me, and is always sure to let me know he cares.  His roomate also made me an Easter basket. I was supposed to be back in town today, my family was getting together.  I got very delayed on the way back, and was over 2 hours late.  When I got to my parents’ house, I apologized for being late, and my aunt told me that it was ok, and that everyone was just glad I was there.  We had lots of the famous mile-a-minute family conversation, and everyone got along.  Not only that, but I got the first real, home-cooked meal I’ve had for a very long time, plus a ‘care package’ to take home (Yay! Grandma cookies!!). This weekend, I noticed that I have a lot of people in my life who really love me and accept me for who I am, with all my maddening faults and everything.  Sometimes, it must be hard for them to understand why I act the way I do.  It’s so easy to get upset when well-meaning friends and family tell you what they think is best for you and what you should do.  I’m starting to see this in a different light as I get older, as much as it used to piss me off when I was younger.  Just the fact that they care makes it a lot easier to live with everything when things aren’t going well.  I feel very lucky.  I had a very beautiful weekend.

Response:

The only other trait I recognize other than having daydreamed my way through school and struggled my way through college is being uncoordinated at sports, steering didn’t come naturally, even a sled, throwing or catching, etc. and being very impulsive about purchases, and jumpiing in with both feet to new interests and then changing interests fairly often.  I never seem to settle into anything completely. I’m not physically hyper at all.  I’m fairly organized and didn’t lose school papers, which was my son’s most obvious problem.  He also couldn’t learn very well…and neither could I in subjects I wasn’t interested in.   I’m still wondering if my kids got this from me.  Jesse’s Dad, who is diff. than Beau’s Dad had learning problems that stymied his career, but he was never diagnosed.  Jesse has diagn. ADD.  Beau has symptoms (25 yrs. old and never diagn.) –his Dad doesn’t have any symptoms. My eldest, Erich, doesn’t have any problems and he had same Dad as Beau. Hope that was clearer than mud.  Said that to say I’m still trying to figure out if Jesse and Beau inherited it from me.  I have the super hyper mouth problem, social skills problem, impulsive problem, and a hard time concentrating on something to learn it if it bores me.   Drinking coffee helps me get busy with paper work.  I’m not messy or disorganized.  I’m always on time and don’t lose things. I do forget what I was about to say mid sentence and get all side tracked when talking.  I talk faster and more than anyone I know.  I also wondered if it was a compulsion, but the more I read about ADHD the more I think it is impulsive and hyperactive.  I am aware that I’m not saying the right things when I’m saying them (probably unlike Asperger’s) and regret my lack of control as soon as I am alone.  I think, "Why couldn’t I shut up!" Thanks for letting me ramble.  Any insights? — Colette

Response:

Drinking coffee helps me get busy with paper work.  I’m not messy or disorganized.  I’m always on time and don’t lose things.

Whew, you are lucky!  Those are some of my biggest probs.  Being aware of and keeping track of time is so hard for me.  I hate it. I do forget what I was about to say mid sentence and get all side tracked when talking.  I talk faster and more than anyone I know.  I also wondered if it was a compulsion, but the more I read about ADHD the more I think it is impulsive and hyperactive.  I am aware that I’m not saying the right things when I’m saying them (probably unlike Asperger’s) and regret my lack of control as soon as I am alone.  I think, "Why couldn’t I shut up!"

Unfortunately for me, regrets come much much later.  I do not know what I’m saying is not socially, politically, or emotionally correct at the time I said it. Most of the time I don’t even understand why people think what I think is wrong. Well, unlike you I DO have Asperger’s in addition to my ADHD. The Ritalin really helps my hyperverbality and impulsivity but it doesn’t help me at all with decoding social clues. I have been blessed with a really cool family.  We all know that I’m clueless in certain areas and we deal with it.  They make clearer requests and I ask for better directions.  Someone says I did such-and-such today or so-and-so said to me and I say what do you want me to say?  Oh, you want me to commiserate with you or Oh, you want me to say I can’t believe it.  Sounds stilted I know but it works for us. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hi, I am glad you had a good weekend, you have it so lucky  My friends don’t really understand what ADD is, so when I get angry, they get angry back and say it was my fault the whole time.  My parents don’t talk to me a lot anymore.  I made some mistakes in my past, I moved away from home and it took a long time for my Mom to even talk to me again.  I am trying to correct those mistakes now.  I dropped out of college when I was 19, I am 23 now and back in school.  I am still trying to work on my family situation, but it seems they don’t want to be flexible or support me.  I know they support my decision to go back to school, they are just not positive in it. They never call me either. Sorry if I went a little overboard, guess I had to get that out.  I was diagnosed with ADD when I was 4 years old.  I was on Ritalin in high school and getting ready to go back on it. Jenn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d been a little down lately, everything seems to be going kinda crappy lately.  So, Friday, I took a road trip to go visit a friend of mine who lives several hours away, I hadn’t seen him for a long time.  By the time I got there, it was late, so we just hung out and watched some videos, and I, of course, talked through the entirety of both movies. We slept in the next morning and spent the next day outside, went hiking. I exhausted my entire repetoire of (unintentional) irritating behavior through out the day.  He didn’t get upset with me.  Later, I asked him why he’s never lost his temper with me, like a lot people do.  His answer was, "I like it.  You keep me entertained."  This is a friend who always has a hug for me, and is always sure to let me know he cares.  His roomate also made me an Easter basket. I was supposed to be back in town today, my family was getting together. I got very delayed on the way back, and was over 2 hours late.  When I got to my parents’ house, I apologized for being late, and my aunt told me that it was ok, and that everyone was just glad I was there.  We had lots of the famous mile-a-minute family conversation, and everyone got along.  Not only that, but I got the first real, home-cooked meal I’ve had for a very long time, plus a ‘care package’ to take home (Yay! Grandma cookies!!). This weekend, I noticed that I have a lot of people in my life who really love me and accept me for who I am, with all my maddening faults and everything.  Sometimes, it must be hard for them to understand why I act the way I do.  It’s so easy to get upset when well-meaning friends and family tell you what they think is best for you and what you should do.  I’m starting to see this in a different light as I get older, as much as it used to piss me off when I was younger.  Just the fact that they care makes it a lot easier to live with everything when things aren’t going well.  I feel very lucky.  I had a very beautiful weekend.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d been a little down lately, everything seems to be going kinda crappy lately.  So, Friday, I took a road trip to go visit a friend of mine who lives several hours away, I hadn’t seen him for a long time.  By the time I got there, it was late, so we just hung out and watched some videos, and I, of course, talked through the entirety of both movies. We slept in the next morning and spent the next day outside, went hiking.  I exhausted my entire repetoire of (unintentional) irritating behavior through out the day.  He didn’t get upset with me.  Later, I asked him why he’s never lost his temper with me, like a lot people do.  His answer was, "I like it.  You keep me entertained."  This is a friend who always has a hug for me, and is always sure to let me know he cares.  His roomate also made me an Easter basket. I was supposed to be back in town today, my family was getting together.  I got very delayed on the way back, and was over 2 hours late.  When I got to my parents’ house, I apologized for being late, and my aunt told me that it was ok, and that everyone was just glad I was there.  We had lots of the famous mile-a-minute family conversation, and everyone got along.  Not only that, but I got the first real, home-cooked meal I’ve had for a very long time, plus a ‘care package’ to take home (Yay! Grandma cookies!!). This weekend, I noticed that I have a lot of people in my life who really love me and accept me for who I am, with all my maddening faults and everything.  Sometimes, it must be hard for them to understand why I act the way I do.  It’s so easy to get upset when well-meaning friends and family tell you what they think is best for you and what you should do.  I’m starting to see this in a different light as I get older, as much as it used to piss me off when I was younger.  Just the fact that they care makes it a lot easier to live with everything when things aren’t going well.  I feel very lucky.  I had a very beautiful weekend.

You should tell the ones you love and who will love you no matter what about your ADD because it shows them you are doing something about it and you value their friendship enough to trust them.

Response:

Question:

Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

Response:

John – I, as a reseller for several other products, was recruited to resell Great Plains as well.  I decided not to include the product in my list of available products for several reasons (note this was 2 years ago).  I list the following:     1)    Tech Support – try calling them and getting an answer that actually answers your question.     2)    If your company purchases the product as a single user system and then in the future requires a multi-user, you are assessed the original purchase price and more for this option.  There are many products available that allow the client to add "user licenses" at a minimal fee for this future need.     3)    Finally, I found the product cumbersome to setup and new users for my clients would require a great amount of training to learn it. You might also inquire as the yearly maintenance costs for technical support, PR Tax Table updates, etc. before you make your final decision. DeeDee Heyne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

  dbhent.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

I would like to comment on a couple of the following: 1) Great Plains is constantly rated one of the best companies for providing support both to end users and to resellers. 2) Not true.  If you buy a single user system and wish to move to multi-user your original investment is applied to the new purchase. 3)  It does require a great deal of setup and training and that is because Great Plains’ products are very feature rich and powerful.  Flexibility like that comes with a price and that price is in increased implementation fees. Alan — Alan C. Whitehouse The Resource Group Great Plains Reseller 1400 Talbot Rd. S., Suite 301 Renton, WA 98055 (425) 277-4760 http://www.resgroup.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John – I, as a reseller for several other products, was recruited to resell Great Plains as well.  I decided not to include the product in my list of available products for several reasons (note this was 2 years ago).  I list the following:     1)    Tech Support – try calling them and getting an answer that actually answers your question.     2)    If your company purchases the product as a single user system and then in the future requires a multi-user, you are assessed the original purchase price and more for this option.  There are many products available that allow the client to add "user licenses" at a minimal fee for this future need.     3)    Finally, I found the product cumbersome to setup and new users for my clients would require a great amount of training to learn it. You might also inquire as the yearly maintenance costs for technical support, PR Tax Table updates, etc. before you make your final decision. DeeDee Heyne Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

Response:

Great Plains makes some great software but without knowing more about your organization there is no way of knowing if it might be good (or bad) for you. Alan — Alan C. Whitehouse The Resource Group Great Plains Reseller 1400 Talbot Rd. S., Suite 301 Renton, WA 98055 (425) 277-4760 http://www.resgroup.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

Response:

Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

Great Plains software is perfectly irrelevant to 99.9% of small and midrange businesses because it is waay up in the high end on pricing, and maintenance.  You could buy a house for $50,000 and five figures per year in maintenance… Great Plains software is for the fortune 1000.  Companies who need the functionality of GPS:  you know who you are:  There is a great website for you at http://www.erpfans.com for ERP software; no aspersions intended, on GPS itself. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

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Great Plains has a very good reputation. We regularly compete against them (I’m a MAS90 reseller). We do not run into many companies switching from Great Plains. We run into many more switching from lower tier products like RealWorld or Accpac…..the systems that haven’t done as well or been upgraded as much in recent years. You can get some independent feedback at http://www.ctsguides.com — they produce and Expertalk survey annually that queries resellers of various products and publishes the results (things like satisfaction and other juicy comments). If I were looking for software in today’s market, I’d be focussing on: Great Plains Solomon MAS90 (biased) Navision I find that they all have a typical price of around $1,500 per module and an equal amount in consulting/setup time. Typical client for me is in the $1 million to $ 50 million range. Regards, Wayne http://www.s-consult.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks Great Plains software is perfectly irrelevant to 99.9% of small and midrange businesses because it is waay up in the high end on pricing, and maintenance.  You could buy a house for $50,000 and five figures per year in maintenance… Great Plains software is for the fortune 1000.  Companies who need the functionality of GPS:  you know who you are:  There is a great website for you at http://www.erpfans.com for ERP software; no aspersions intended, on GPS itself. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

– Schulz Consulting is an authorized consultant/reseller for the popular MAS90 accounting software. Visit us online at http://www.s-consult.com Before you buy.

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Irrelevant?  Hardly. Perhaps there is some need of an explanation of ‘Great Plains’, which is a company, not a product.  Generally, when folks are talking about ‘Great Plains’, they are talking about the product called Dynamics – their foundation product.  They also support a lower end product called Great Plains Accounting, which I think is on the way out. Dynamics also has a higher end brother called Dynamics C/S+.  Dynamics runs on C-Tree, which is a low end (1-5 users) that can support both MAC and PC clients, or BTrieve (now called Pervasive SQL).  Pervasive SQL can support up to 12-14 users.  C/S+ runs on Microsoft SQL for high end processing but low numbers of users (limited to 10).  This product doesn’t really seem to have a place and I doubt it will live many more years.  GP’s ERP product is called eEnterprise and runs on SQL as well.  It is extremely expensive but can scale up to run extremely large companies. In summary, GP has several different products to suit the size of different businesses. I am a GP reseller and would be happy to answer any questions you may specific to your industry.  Unless you’re close geographically, I would suggest another reseller that could be more hands-on.  However, don’t take my word for it.  Check out independant evaluations from people who actually know something about the product, you can start at: http://www.accountingsoftwarenews.com Mike. Michael Cooper Director of Information Systems Hisle and Company Lexington, Kentucky

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Software: good. Price: a little steep. Flexibility: adequate but not comparable to UA Corporate Accounting.  - Carl Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

Respectfully,   – Carl Dick www.cpaccess.com 800-997-7944 949-261-2694  California, USA

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Does anybody have any good or bad experience with Great Plains software? Thanks

John: Our company has been using Dynamics for 2 years and have had a very positive experience.  We moved off of a mini-computer based system.  We are a relatively small company (under $25 million in revenues) and only use Dynamics for General Ledger, Accounts Payable and Bank Rec.  Our Vertical Market Software Vendor supplies software strictly for our industry, and thus it handles all other funcitons and needs.  Our experiences with Great Plains Dynamics include: – Participating in Great Plains Training Class prior to implementation where we were not only trained on using the software, but also setting up the system. – Performing all set-ups in-house.  (Our total training class bill paid to Great Plains plus the consulting bill paid to our VAR was less than 40% of the purchase price of the software. – As yet, having not utilized the first one of the 5-pack of Support Calls that we purchased with the software.  I know this sounds unbelievable, however our company’s experience with software systems is such that we are capable, ‘low-maintenance’ users. – A good working relationship with our VAR, who was supportive of our desire to perform set-ups in-house.  Our company’s philosophy is to try to be as self-supportive as possible, and therefore, we felt if we did not perform the set-ups ourselves, we wouldn’t be as successful making changes later. While we appreciate the value of the VAR, the success of our experience with the product (and its ability to meet and continue to support our needs) was more important to them than selling us alot of consulting time. – We designed and utilize a combination of Unit and Variable Allocation accounts combined with a unique Account Segment design to enable Automated Allocations of Costs using Activity based costing models built in to Dynamics.  The software, and its FRx reporting utilities are certainly feature rich enough for our needs. In sum, having spent around $9k for the software (4-user license), and around $5k in total implementation/support/upgrade costs for the first 2 years of utilization, it has been an excellent solution for our company. You may want to look at www.ctsguides.com They publish a helpful tool for Accounting Software selection. Good luck with your selection. Kevin Nelson <Remove the dontspamme for e-mail

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Question:

systems for AMD. Rich Bilancia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need a good resource which will help me to set up the cost accounting for a semi-conductor engineering department which has to produce a large number of machines.  The machines are at the prototype level, but will be used inside the company and often sold to customers.  Most of the parts, including the high cost parts, are only going to be used or purchased once and I do not think they should be set up on the regular system and put into manufacturing inventory.  What does your company do, and do you know of an organization, book or other resource that can help? Thanks

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I need a good resource which will help me to set up the cost accounting for a semi-conductor engineering department which has to produce a large number of machines.  The machines are at the prototype level, but will be used inside the company and often sold to customers.  Most of the parts, including the high cost parts, are only going to be used or purchased once and I do not think they should be set up on the regular system and put into manufacturing inventory.  What does your company do, and do you know of an organization, book or other resource that can help? Thanks * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Question:

Hello!  I work for a small non-profit and our accountants currently have us using Checkbook Solutions.  We find it hard to deal with and would like to change to Quickbooks.  Any thoughts? Thanks in advance! — Robin Beruh Cancer Caring Center http://trfn.clpgh.org/cancercaring

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Qb is a better product with significant reporting and analytical capabilities that cbs does not (or didn’t use to)have. Your accountants may not like it, but they should respect your desire to have a more flexible and capable product. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello!  I work for a small non-profit and our accountants currently have us using Checkbook Solutions.  We find it hard to deal with and would like to change to Quickbooks.  Any thoughts? Thanks in advance! — Robin Beruh Cancer Caring Center http://trfn.clpgh.org/cancercaring

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Qb is a better product with significant reporting and analytical capabilities that cbs does not (or didn’t use to)have. Your accountants may not like it, but they should respect your desire to have a more flexible and capable product. Hello!  I work for a small non-profit and our accountants currently have us using Checkbook Solutions.  We find it hard to deal with and would like to change to Quickbooks.  Any thoughts?

I agree, as does almost everyone. QB is, by far, the largest selling small business accounting package. An inexpensive bridge products transfer QB data to the Creative Solutions package your accountant uses. He may be make you work longer and harder, with less results, because he does not know this, or because the limited Checkbook Solutions feature make you need him more. Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A., 954-566-7540, fax 7541   QuickBooks Prof. Advisor & Official QB 6 Top Tester   biz.comp.accounting co-moderator for spam free news    275 E Oakland Park Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334

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I agree, as does almost everyone. QB is, by far, the largest selling small business accounting package. An inexpensive bridge products transfer QB data to the Creative Solutions package your accountant uses. He may be make you work longer and harder, with less results, because he does not know this, or because the limited Checkbook Solutions feature make you need him more.

Creative Solutions’ Writeup-related products are, without question, some of the most poorly designed software I’ve seen.  Just horrible.  Unfortunately, they are the only game in town for straight writeup.  But the "checkbook solution" is useless crap.  In my opinion….

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