Accounting Talk » Financial Accounting » Taiwan parliament bans selling of dog meat

Taiwan parliament bans selling of dog meat

Question:

What you say oso dunno -maybe you have cunt? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your wife’s cunt oso expired? You have the same or share her orifice? LOL this expired cunt is talking thru her orifice…. By The Associated Press PARIS – French actress Brigitte Bardot (news) has sent a letter to China’s president criticizing the killing of civet cats in its fight against the SARS (news – web sites) virus.

Response:

HONG KONG (Reuters) – Opposite a writhing mass of snakes in a glass tank, Kam Oi-ho stirred a steaming pot of snake soup and filled a bowl for his first customer of the day. Chinese people think eating snakes is good for you, especially in winter when the meat is believed to keep you warm. But not this year. "Our business has plunged 70 to 80 percent since the SARS (news – web sites) outbreak last year," Kam said, as he looked around his near empty stall, which also sports bottles of wine containing snakes and their innards. "The recent scare in Guangzhou has slashed business by another 40 percent in the past few weeks," he said. China has confirmed three new cases of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome in recent weeks in the southern province of Guangdong, where the disease first emerged in late 2002 before spreading to more than 30 countries. The virus eventually infected about 8,000 people and killed nearly 800 of them, including 299 in Hong Kong. Snake lovers used to have their fill in small Hong Kong stalls like Kam’s, where snakes are sometimes killed and skinned next to your table. There were even special snake banquets, where every part was used and cooked in different ways. The mild-tasting meat is firmer than fish but often more tender than chicken. The organs of the animals, most of which are caught in the wild in Southeast Asia, are touted as having all sorts of benefits. But experts believe the SARS virus jumped from animals to humans. Prime suspect is the civet cat, also served up as a delicacy, and even though snakes have never figured on the list of possible SARS sources, diners are taking no chances. "Since the SARS outbreak last year, I feel wild animals are disgusting. I haven’t had any snake soup since," said Betty Chan, a company executive. GOOD OLD DAYS On the walls of Kam’s shop, one of Hong Kong’s oldest and best-known, aging newspaper clippings are proof that business was brisk in the past. "In the peak winter season, we used to sell 300 to 500 bowls of snake soup a day. Now we sell maybe only about 100 bowls," said Kam, whose "Snake King Yuen" stall also supplies snake meat to large restaurants. "Out of every 100 restaurants that used to serve snake soup or dishes, only 10 are still doing so," he said, as he drew a wriggling serpent from a container and headed to the slaughter room. "We keep only 50 snakes in this stall, compared with more than 1,000 in the past," Kam said, as he slit a snake lengthwise with a knife, removing its skin and plucking out the organs. "There are about 100 snake stalls in Hong Kong. I think about half of them will have to fold soon," he said. Yip Kwok-leung, who runs the Snake King Leung eatery, agreed. "This is the worst time in my 20-odd years in this trade. Our customers have fallen by half since the last SARS outbreak and I think the trade will get more difficult in the future." But snake meat still has some fans. "There are so many animals that are said to be bad to eat. Can we possibly avoid all of them?" said Peter Leung as he waited for his order. "I live far away but I had to come here for snake soup because many others have shut down," he said. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – GUANGZHOU, China (AFP) – World Health Organisation experts searched animal markets for clues to explain the re-emergence of SARS (news – web sites) as hundreds of raccoon dogs were killed in the latest cull linked to the virus. The authorities in the southern province of Guangdong have reported one confirmed and two suspected cases of SARS, the first time the virus has emerged in China since the country was declared SARS-free by the WHO in June. The WHO is still awaiting laboratory results that could confirm the two suspect cases of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, but the lack of causal links among the patients is confounding the experts. "There is certainly no smoking gun at the moment with any of the three cases that would enable us to say precisely where they got it," WHO team leader Dr Robert Breiman said Wednesday in the southern city of Guangzhou. "It’s still a little bit of a mystery, a bit of what you might call a jigsaw puzzle and at some point I have a feeling this will all come together and maybe be fairly obvious, but at the moment it’s not clear." A 20-year-old waitress and 35-year-old businessman remain suspected SARS patients in a southern Guangzhou city hospital and are in a stable condition, the Chinese Health Ministry said in its daily report Wednesday. A 32-year-old man identified as China’s only confirmed case since last year’s deadly epidemic was released from hospital last week. Chinese health professionals and the WHO agree that this year’s cases bear little resemblance to those from last year, when SARS emerged in Guangdong province and went on to kill nearly 800 people worldwide. The China Youth Daily cited Guangzhou Respiratory Illness Research Institute deputy director Xiao Zhenglun as making clear the current instances were quite different from the cases last year. "And also quite different from the cases that appeared in Taiwan and Singapore this year," Xiao said, referring to the only other SARS cases reported since the WHO declared the initial global outbreak over last July. The global health body said the intensity of the disease has diminished, while the trasmission rate is so far nominal when compared to the explosion of cases beginning in November 2002 in Guangdong. "The severity of the sickness has been much less than last year," said Roy Wadia, a spokesman for the WHO in Guangzhou. Seeking the origin of the pneumonia-like disease, WHO experts returned to the Xinyuan animal market Wednesday, one of the city’s largest suppliers of wildlife such as the civet cat, long suspected as a possible source of SARS. The WHO’s environmental experts took samples from chicken, duck and peacock coops. "The WHO is hoping to get a wider sampling of the animal market," Wadia said. "It’s like taking a control group so you can control tests on the sample procedures." Meanwhile, China’s campaign to exterminate civet cats and rats in Guangdong has extended to raccoon dogs and badgers. Province-wide, 558 raccoon dogs and 10 badgers have been killed, and the same fate has befallen 3,945 civet casts, the Guangzhou Daily said. Most of them were drowned in disinfectant and then incinerated. The WHO reiterated concerns that any such cull could be dangerous. "If the animal does harbour the virus, then its even more of a concern," said Wadia. Amid complaints by animal dealers and restaurant owners that Guangdong authorities have been too quick to take action, propaganda pamphlets linking the virus found in the civet to that in SARS could be found around the city’s markets and restaurants. The city government has banned the breeding, sale, distribution and consumption of civet cat, raccoon dog and badger — all of which are popular delicacies in Guangdong. PARIS (AFP) – China’s hasty culling of civet cats to combat a feared resurgence of SARS (news – web sites) is premature and potentially misguided and may even be fingering an animal that is innocent, experts said. There are numerous other species, ranging from rats to domestic cats, that can carry the SARS virus, they said. But, they stressed, no-one yet knows how or even if any of these species can transmit the virus to humans — or indeed whether these animals were infected by humans in the first place rather than the other way round. Officials fanned out across farms, wildlife markets and restaurants in southern China’s Guangdong province on Tuesday to round up caged civets, a local culinary delicacy blamed for spreading Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) to humans in proximity. All estimated 10,000 farmed civets are to be killed by January 10 — a death sentence pronounced after a half-year lull in China’s SARS cases. But Dutch virologist Albert Osterhaus of the Erasmus Medical Centre in Rotterdam said the weasel-like mammal, a cousin of the mongoose, was only one among many theoretical animal vectors of SARS. "The presence of the virus has been demonstrated in civet cats at market places but also in raccoon dogs and badger ferrets, and there are also a number of other species, such as domestic ferrets and cats, which can be (experimentally) infected," Osterhaus told AFP. "The virus is relatively promiscuous. It can infect many different animal species, probably also including rodents, so taking all those things together, the question really is whether the culprit is indeed the civet cat." Even though these species have been identified as being able to harbour the virus, no-one knows whether they can transmit the agent to humans, or indeed whether they were infected by humans in the first place, Osterhaus said. The pathway of transmission "is not clear at the moment," he said. The civet cull was ordered in response to a single case of SARS, involving a 32-year-old television journalist from Guangdong who has since recovered. Scientists found civet cats had a coronavirus similar to the SARS virus found in the patient. Linda Saif, a professor at Ohio State University who is one of the world’s leading authorities on animal coronaviruses, said the Chinese were clearly inspired by the mass slaughter of chickens in Hong Kong in 1997 that stamped out the peril of "bird flu." The difference was that this time around, hard virological data pinpointing a specific animal risk are only sketchy, she said. It was still unclear whether civets or other species can spread the agent among humans, or if

Response:

You have the same or share her orifice? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LOL this expired cunt is talking thru her orifice…. By The Associated Press PARIS – French actress Brigitte Bardot (news) has sent a letter to China’s president criticizing the killing of civet cats in its fight against the SARS (news – web sites) virus.

Response:

Your wife’s cunt oso expired? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -You have the same or share her orifice? LOL this expired cunt is talking thru her orifice…. By The Associated Press PARIS – French actress Brigitte Bardot (news) has sent a letter to China’s president criticizing the killing of civet cats in its fight against the SARS (news – web sites) virus.

Response:

LOL this expired cunt is talking thru her orifice…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -By The Associated Press PARIS – French actress Brigitte Bardot (news) has sent a letter to China’s president criticizing the killing of civet cats in its fight against the SARS (news – web sites) virus.

Response:

The Chinese people have abandoned morality and God to pursue a purely materialistic life style. Such practices are against the order of nature and the purpose of human life. We can all learn from the result of their actions.

Not all Chinese people have abandoned morality and embraced pure materialism. Those who do so sometimes come back to reality after they have realised how damaging such an ideology is to themselves, their loved ones and the society they live in. I agree, that everyone can learn from the mistakes done in the past, the most important thing is to guard against doing the mistake over and over again. As long as we don’t learn our lesson, we will forever be trapped in the cycle of ignorance and misery.

Response:

GUANGZHOU, China (AFP) – World Health Organisation experts searched animal markets for clues to explain the re-emergence of SARS (news – web sites) as hundreds of raccoon dogs were killed in the latest cull linked to the virus. The authorities in the southern province of Guangdong have reported one confirmed and two suspected cases of SARS, the first time the virus has emerged in China since the country was declared SARS-free by the WHO in June. The WHO is still awaiting laboratory results that could confirm the two suspect cases of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, but the lack of causal links among the patients is confounding the experts. "There is certainly no smoking gun at the moment with any of the three cases that would enable us to say precisely where they got it," WHO team leader Dr Robert Breiman said Wednesday in the southern city of Guangzhou. "It’s still a little bit of a mystery, a bit of what you might call a jigsaw puzzle and at some point I have a feeling this will all come together and maybe be fairly obvious, but at the moment it’s not clear." A 20-year-old waitress and 35-year-old businessman remain suspected SARS patients in a southern Guangzhou city hospital and are in a stable condition, the Chinese Health Ministry said in its daily report Wednesday. A 32-year-old man identified as China’s only confirmed case since last year’s deadly epidemic was released from hospital last week. Chinese health professionals and the WHO agree that this year’s cases bear little resemblance to those from last year, when SARS emerged in Guangdong province and went on to kill nearly 800 people worldwide. The China Youth Daily cited Guangzhou Respiratory Illness Research Institute deputy director Xiao Zhenglun as making clear the current instances were quite different from the cases last year. "And also quite different from the cases that appeared in Taiwan and Singapore this year," Xiao said, referring to the only other SARS cases reported since the WHO declared the initial global outbreak over last July. The global health body said the intensity of the disease has diminished, while the trasmission rate is so far nominal when compared to the explosion of cases beginning in November 2002 in Guangdong. "The severity of the sickness has been much less than last year," said Roy Wadia, a spokesman for the WHO in Guangzhou. Seeking the origin of the pneumonia-like disease, WHO experts returned to the Xinyuan animal market Wednesday, one of the city’s largest suppliers of wildlife such as the civet cat, long suspected as a possible source of SARS. The WHO’s environmental experts took samples from chicken, duck and peacock coops. "The WHO is hoping to get a wider sampling of the animal market," Wadia said. "It’s like taking a control group so you can control tests on the sample procedures." Meanwhile, China’s campaign to exterminate civet cats and rats in Guangdong has extended to raccoon dogs and badgers. Province-wide, 558 raccoon dogs and 10 badgers have been killed, and the same fate has befallen 3,945 civet casts, the Guangzhou Daily said. Most of them were drowned in disinfectant and then incinerated. The WHO reiterated concerns that any such cull could be dangerous. "If the animal does harbour the virus, then its even more of a concern," said Wadia. Amid complaints by animal dealers and restaurant owners that Guangdong authorities have been too quick to take action, propaganda pamphlets linking the virus found in the civet to that in SARS could be found around the city’s markets and restaurants. The city government has banned the breeding, sale, distribution and consumption of civet cat, raccoon dog and badger — all of which are popular delicacies in Guangdong. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PARIS (AFP) – China’s hasty culling of civet cats to combat a feared resurgence of SARS (news – web sites) is premature and potentially misguided and may even be fingering an animal that is innocent, experts said. There are numerous other species, ranging from rats to domestic cats, that can carry the SARS virus, they said. But, they stressed, no-one yet knows how or even if any of these species can transmit the virus to humans — or indeed whether these animals were infected by humans in the first place rather than the other way round. Officials fanned out across farms, wildlife markets and restaurants in southern China’s Guangdong province on Tuesday to round up caged civets, a local culinary delicacy blamed for spreading Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) to humans in proximity. All estimated 10,000 farmed civets are to be killed by January 10 — a death sentence pronounced after a half-year lull in China’s SARS cases. But Dutch virologist Albert Osterhaus of the Erasmus Medical Centre in Rotterdam said the weasel-like mammal, a cousin of the mongoose, was only one among many theoretical animal vectors of SARS. "The presence of the virus has been demonstrated in civet cats at market places but also in raccoon dogs and badger ferrets, and there are also a number of other species, such as domestic ferrets and cats, which can be (experimentally) infected," Osterhaus told AFP. "The virus is relatively promiscuous. It can infect many different animal species, probably also including rodents, so taking all those things together, the question really is whether the culprit is indeed the civet cat." Even though these species have been identified as being able to harbour the virus, no-one knows whether they can transmit the agent to humans, or indeed whether they were infected by humans in the first place, Osterhaus said. The pathway of transmission "is not clear at the moment," he said. The civet cull was ordered in response to a single case of SARS, involving a 32-year-old television journalist from Guangdong who has since recovered. Scientists found civet cats had a coronavirus similar to the SARS virus found in the patient. Linda Saif, a professor at Ohio State University who is one of the world’s leading authorities on animal coronaviruses, said the Chinese were clearly inspired by the mass slaughter of chickens in Hong Kong in 1997 that stamped out the peril of "bird flu." The difference was that this time around, hard virological data pinpointing a specific animal risk are only sketchy, she said. It was still unclear whether civets or other species can spread the agent among humans, or if so, whether wild civets could pose a similar threat, thus creating a viral "reservoir" that may never be eliminated. "At this point, I’m not sure you have all the information to begin this major eradication campaign," she said. The World Health Organisation (WHO) diplomatically accused China on Tuesday of rushing into the cull without conducting "a clear risk assessment," notably whether the procedure could expose the slaughterers themselves to infection. "It is perfectly possible to assess these risks but as far as we are aware that has not yet been done because this was a decision taken rapidly in response to new information," WHO spokesman Iain Simpson said in Geneva. "(…) The problem is that all the focus on civet cats and the slaughter of civet cats might divert attention from elsewhere," he warned. Sources said the civet campaign showed China was quick to show it could be active rather than reactive to SARS and had woken up to the threat, in lives and economic damage, that the disease could pose. Its early attempt to cover up the first cases of SARS in Guangdong in late 2002 was blamed for catastrophically spreading the novel disease to Hong Kong, Vietnam, Taiwan, Canada, France and elsewhere. The outbreak claimed around 800 lives and infected 8,000 people before it was stopped in the middle of 2003, using traditional methods of quarantine and isolation in the absence of a cure or a vaccine. BEIJING (Reuters) – A suspected SARS (news – web sites) patient in southern China may have caught a new, mutated strain of the deadly virus, a genetics expert researching the case said on Sunday. Chinese media also speculated the patient, a 32-year-old television producer, might have caught the virus from rats but this has not been confirmed. "It’s definitely a coronavirus, but it’s a different strain from the virus last year," Chen Qiuxia of the Guangdong Center for Disease Prevention and Control told Reuters. "Our gene testing showed the difference." Chen, ruling out the possibility of contamination in the laboratory skewing the results, said the virus may be a mutation of the coronavirus blamed for the SARS outbreak last year that infected about 8,000 people worldwide and killed almost 800. The SARS virus belongs to the coronavirus family which also causes the common cold in humans. Most scientists say flu-like Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, which first surfaced in southern China in November 2002, is likely to have spread from farms in the region, possibly jumping to humans from animals such as civet cats, ducks, pigs and rats. A battery of lab tests on the television producer, China’s first suspected SARS case since the World Health Organization (news – web sites) (WHO) declared the world SARS free in July, have been inconclusive. Roy Wadia, WHO spokesman in Beijing, declined to comment on the possibility the man might have a new strain of SARS, saying the organization had not yet examined Chen’s study. The Beijing Youth Daily, however, quoted an expert from a military medical research institute cautioning that it was too early to say if the man was infected with a mutated version of SARS, and further, more comprehensive gene tests were necessary. Last week, China

Response:

PARIS (AFP) – China’s hasty culling of civet cats to combat a feared resurgence of SARS (news – web sites) is premature and potentially misguided and may even be fingering an animal that is innocent, experts said. There are numerous other species, ranging from rats to domestic cats, that can carry the SARS virus, they said.

The over-riding statement should be that civet cats should NOT be on the exotic meats menu in the first place. There is no compelling reason whatever to trap or raise civet cats for food. The TV footage of the Guangdong exotic meats market shows them confined in tiny cages, stacked four or more cages high and therefore in very unsanitary conditions where urine and feceas would rain down on the cages below. The news reports say more than 10,000 civet cats were destroyed. This is an appalling number. Since the Guangdong market is a thriving daily market the chances are that most of these civet cats had been bred and raised in farms in equally appalling conditions. These more than 10,000 caged civet cats certainly should not be returned to their farms or released into the wild for many reason including the likely possibility that they may indeed be SARS vectors. What we should hope for is that the destruction of these 10,000 animals will convice the Chinese (I’m Chinese) that civet cats should never be allowed to be kept as live exotic meats again. I am not fussy about the science to justify a universal ban. What is needed now is a concerted publicity campaign against eating wildlife. Canada has a very successful and convincing campaign against keeping wildlife as pets, in particular local species. All local wildlife is assumed to carry rabies and all that is needed is a scratch or a bite to infect the pet owner. The cure is a very painful series of injections. In addition the literature says that local wildlife kept as pets may acquire diseases that wildlife do not encounter in the wilds. These diseases will likely spread to the wild population should the pet escape or be abandoned. If such a ban can be enforced those 10,000 civet cats slaughtered would be well worth their sacrifice.

Response:

By The Associated Press PARIS – French actress Brigitte Bardot (news) has sent a letter to China’s president criticizing the killing of civet cats in its fight against the SARS (news – web sites) virus. Bardot’s letter to President Hu Jintao claims there’s no scientific proof about which animal species first caught the severe acute respiratory syndrome and lashes out against China’s "cruel and barbarous slaughtering methods." "The eradication methods these animals are put through are unacceptable," Bardot wrote in her letter, which was made available to reporters Thursday. The southern Chinese province of Guangdong has targeted 10,000 civets for slaughter

Author: admin on
Category: Financial Accounting
Tags: Financial Accounting

Accounting Talk » Financial Accounting » Just heard the dumbest thing today

Just heard the dumbest thing today

Question:

SomeDude <rakani…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

7128047.0308042110.65b2d…@posting.google.com… > Ok. There’s a really hot girl at work (tall, nice face, bright, nice > body, etc…). She’s studying Electrical Engineering, just like me, > but she’s older and goes to a different school. We were talking about > how to meet bf/gf at school. For those who don’t know, the guy/girl > ratio in EE is about 10:1. Every decent person knows that it’s almost > impossible for a male EE student to hook up in class. Well, she told > me that EE guys had it EASIER than females. She said that guys were > allowed to go talk to a female and it was normal, and girls could only > wait for someone who comes for her. HENCE males have the advantage! > How untrue… Coming from a very hot girl like her it’s almost > unbelievable. I mean, she probably has half her EE class staring at > her and can pick anyone she wants.

That means females usually says bullshit when ask about love and attraction. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> She thinks it’s easy and natural for a guy to go talk to a girl in > class. I guess shyness is a word that she hasn’t learned yet. Another > proof of the big misunderstanding between guys and gals. > Oh yeah, she was also wondering why I didn’t find a gf in my class. I > was trying to explain to her that in my class of 140 students there > are maybe 15 girls and 5 attractive ones. She was like, "Why don’t you > go talk to these 5 if you’re interested?", almost implying I would be > easily hooked up. She didn’t get the whole point of being shy, I > guess. > SomeDude.

Response:

Ok. There’s a really hot girl at work (tall, nice face, bright, nice body, etc…). She’s studying Electrical Engineering, just like me, but she’s older and goes to a different school. We were talking about how to meet bf/gf at school. For those who don’t know, the guy/girl ratio in EE is about 10:1. Every decent person knows that it’s almost impossible for a male EE student to hook up in class. Well, she told me that EE guys had it EASIER than females. She said that guys were allowed to go talk to a female and it was normal, and girls could only wait for someone who comes for her. HENCE males have the advantage! How untrue… Coming from a very hot girl like her it’s almost unbelievable. I mean, she probably has half her EE class staring at her and can pick anyone she wants. She thinks it’s easy and natural for a guy to go talk to a girl in class. I guess shyness is a word that she hasn’t learned yet. Another proof of the big misunderstanding between guys and gals. Oh yeah, she was also wondering why I didn’t find a gf in my class. I was trying to explain to her that in my class of 140 students there are maybe 15 girls and 5 attractive ones. She was like, "Why don’t you go talk to these 5 if you’re interested?", almost implying I would be easily hooked up. She didn’t get the whole point of being shy, I guess. SomeDude.

Response:

trance…@aol.com (Trance909) wrote in message <news:20030805220528.04467.00000047@mb-m29.aol.com>… > >She was like, "Why don’t you > >go talk to these 5 if you’re interested?", almost implying I would be > >easily hooked up. She didn’t get the whole point of being shy, I > >guess. > It’s amazing, the world *they* inhabit, that is so alien to us. Yeah, just go > talk to them and they’ll be all over you, no problem <<rolls eyes>>

Isn’t that the way it works? *innocent face*

Response:

>She was like, "Why don’t you >go talk to these 5 if you’re interested?", almost implying I would be >easily hooked up. She didn’t get the whole point of being shy, I >guess.

It’s amazing, the world *they* inhabit, that is so alien to us. Yeah, just go talk to them and they’ll be all over you, no problem <<rolls eyes>>

Response:

> I know this because I asked >them or someone I knew asked them. I mean, let’s get real. If any >girl in engineering thinks there aren’t a huge number of guys in her >class interested in her, and I don’t care WHAT she looks like, she’s >totally out of reality.

Accounting and business really sucked ass, too. Not that there was a statistical lack of women as compared to men – there wasn’t. In fact, there was a slight female majority. However, SO MANY of these women were quite unattractive….sometimes due to looks, sometimes due to horrible arrogant bitchy personality, often due to both. So while there was a sizable population of women, almost all of them were very unappealing. I didn’t like them, and the feeling was mutual. I remember putting this Big 5-headed bitch in her place during my senior year capstone course. This one was reasonably attractive physically, but my god was she ever an arrogant competitive bitch. Anyway, for this class there were group projects…she was in a different group. So for our final project, I really prepared my ass off. I don’t know what motivated me to do this, Trance’s Last Hurrah, perhaps, but I prepared a vibrant presentation, making the financial analysis for Company X seem a hell of a lot more interesting than it really was. This girl and I presented on the same day, and I really kicked her ass, made her look like a piece of shit by comparison. I got plenty of compliments on my presentation, while she was reduced to attempting to hurl some irrelevant jab of a question at me from the peanut gallery, which I calmly and logically dismissed as the irrelevant question it was. I think I’ve posted about this before, but I relished this so much, I’m posting about it again. I couldn’t stand this girl. There were plenty of arrogant bitches, but she was the worst, *the* Nemesis.

Response:

rakani…@hotmail.com (SomeDude) wrote in message <news:7128047.0308042110.65b2d19d@posting.google.com>… > Oh yeah, she was also wondering why I didn’t find a gf in my class. I > was trying to explain to her that in my class of 140 students there > are maybe 15 girls and 5 attractive ones. She was like, "Why don’t you > go talk to these 5 if you’re interested"

You should have said "I am".

Response:

rakani…@hotmail.com (SomeDude) wrote in news:7128047.0308042110.65b2d19d@posting.google.com: > Ok. There’s a really hot girl at work (tall, nice face, bright, nice > body, etc…). She’s studying Electrical Engineering, just like me, > but she’s older and goes to a different school. We were talking about > how to meet bf/gf at school. For those who don’t know, the guy/girl > ratio in EE is about 10:1. Every decent person knows that it’s almost > impossible for a male EE student to hook up in class. Well, she told > me that EE guys had it EASIER than females. She said that guys were > allowed to go talk to a female and it was normal, and girls could only > wait for someone who comes for her. HENCE males have the advantage! > How untrue… Coming from a very hot girl like her it’s almost > unbelievable. I mean, she probably has half her EE class staring at > her and can pick anyone she wants.

I might tell her that with statistical inference like that she should consider getting the hell out of engineering. The irony is that that makes it even tougher for guys, lol.

Response:

rakani…@hotmail.com (SomeDude) wrote in message

<news:7128047.0308042110.65b2d19d@posting.google.com>… > Oh yeah, she was also wondering why I didn’t find a gf in my > class. I was trying to explain to her that in my class of 140 > students there are maybe 15 girls and 5 attractive ones. She was > like, "Why don’t you go talk to these 5 if you’re interested?", > almost implying I would be easily hooked up. She didn’t get the > whole point of being shy, I guess.

Where in the heck does she get the idea that any of these 15 girls (let alone the 5 attractive ones) would be available? I *have* been in these situations MANY MANY times and almost NONE of the girls were without a boyfriend. I know this because I asked them or someone I knew asked them. I mean, let’s get real. If any girl in engineering thinks there aren’t a huge number of guys in her class interested in her, and I don’t care WHAT she looks like, she’s totally out of reality. Female engineers become irresistible at the age of consent and remain that way until about thirty minutes after their clinical death. Longer if it’s a warm day. —- p. 180 of Scott Adams’ book "The Dilbert Principle". Excerpt from my 2003-02-16 post at <http://tinyurl.com/j3bx> —> ** I remember how every Fall, when the new graduate students would ** arrive, it’d be like musical chairs as the 35 some guys circled ** around the 5 or 6 new female graduate students. Before I attended ** graduate school I had these dreams of meeting a girl in math. After ** having been a graduate student in several math departments [1], ** I now realize how naive this was. Besides physics or engineering ** graduate programs, I doubt there is any place where the odds against ** a guy are so high. [2] (I’m speaking of the late 1970’s to the mid ** 1980’s, by the way. I think the situation in math is quite a bit ** better now, although it’s probably still just as bad in physics and ** engineering.) Virgo Cluster "[60 Work-Related Health Problems] (#33) Glassworkers’ Cataract." << Karl Shaw, "The Mammoth Book of Tasteless Lists", Carroll & Graf Publishers, 1998, p. 252 >>

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Financial Accounting
Tags: Financial Accounting

Accounting Talk » Accountants » The Liberal Creed

The Liberal Creed

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-No-Archive: yes I wasn’t allowed to work and I didn’t get an allowance very often – so… I had to beg or manipulate for what I wanted. Literally. Finally right before I went to college I was allowed to babysit a little. When I got to college spending money was very sparce so I got a job building scenery. But then of course my allowance was taken away. I went for one year and I got real tired of being controlled long distance by purse strings. I left home – got a full time job – struggled like hell but I finally found a way to stop all that controlling stuff. Sometimes I lived on oatmeal and peanut butter. But I was free.

*Amen* I think of that as your taking the conservative approach. You made choices that caused you to be successful and self-sufficient. If you had a clone (as pleasant as that thought otherwise is) and she had said "Somebody (society) should *give* me my tuition and leave me alone", that would be a lady of the "liberal" outlook. I think in terms of small towns (Population 134, when I grew up there). That is my "society". I couldn’t fathom saying "Mr coal miner, 9th grade gruduate, feeding 4 kids, I expect *you* to pay my tuition". Nor could I say that I feel "discouraged" or "disadvantaged", so the fellow who built the hardware store, or the lady who operates the small diner should get me a house, groceries, whatever…. That’s my society. And, if we skip society and go on to "the government", my government is the fellow who threw the switches at a local rail yard, because he was our mayor. Do I count on him to squeeze money out of the other people in town so I can have what I want and don’t intend to pay for? When we grow to the faceless anonymity of large cities, when the folks we want to take from have no identity in our minds, it’s easy to feel that *somebody* should be giving something so that I don’t have to get up and go to work in the morning. Of course they *will* have to work to get money to pay us *not* to work :)} SpiritQuest Where are *they* with my new Corvette, dammit }

Response:

And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide. Unfortunately, I cannot agree with any of the definitions thus far

That’s a natural. I think that the greater our distaste with one group of people, the more we lump that group into the misguided. While I’m more focused on the conservative "middle class" or even the "Southern Democrat", it looks like you’re focused on the industrialist. provided. There too many wealthy conservatives who did not earn the trust fund or the inheritance that they so bitterly do not want to pay taxes on, who collect social security as well as utterly unearned pensions ( golden parachutes ) who open a post office box in Bermuda to avoid paying corporate taxes, who find greasy accountants to help them avoid paying personal income taxes on "farms" ( tax shelters)

There’s the difference in our backgrounds and emotional makeup. I don’t mind those who are wealthy, however they came by it. I’d like to be able to pass on more to my kids and have them keep it. I’m "dramatically overinsured" for that. And, should one of my offspring, the really financially oriented one, wind up with a 25K tax bill vs his laid back brother’s 2K tax bill, I’d like to see ways for him to trim it back to a reasonable share, a bit more equal. I can’t see him paying for his brother’s choice of jobs after his brother eliminates those that don’t have the social rewards, or that are too high-stress to consider. that they are being *paid subsidies* to not grow upon, who lambast welfare as they lobby for government "assistance" in setting up foriegn manufacturing, and they will be the last to recognize that they are suckling at the teat of public largesse. There were only

I think you’re talking corporations rather than individuals. That’s a different (I think) problem. How do you compete and stay alive with your $30 an hour auto worker against the $1.25 an hour Korean making a Hyundai. Something has to give. And, I look at that auto worker and their "right" to charge that much for building a car to be sold to an $8 shoe salesman. conservatives who lobbied for a provision in the NAFTA treaty to allow corporations to sue governments if government regulations "damaged" their ability to make a profit. There is a lawsuit being played out in California right now, the Canadian manufacturer of a gasoline additive found to be harmful, is suing for $750,000,000.00.

I hadn’t heard of that one. Wonder if it will go anywhere. I recall autoworkers (my natural reference, since I’m in Detroit) getting 90% of their nice paycheck though they weren’t working, because other americans were being allowed to buy Japanese cars and were choosing to do so. Don’t know what the bill was for that. And, we grow up with "they", this unidentiable entity that’s supposed to move in and be a good Dad to us, if we follow the liberal line of thinking (Hey, canya tell I’m a conservative). It is far more complicated than Jack’s black and white universe. Colin

It’s more complicated than any of us with our particular viewpoint can assess, I expect. Still, the exchange is educational and beats hell out of the "Yo Mama!" threads } SpiritQuest

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know some good but bitter folks at the local state agencies who complain that the help available to those who *need* it, is so little because such a big portion goes to those who don’t, but who "fit the formula". SpiritQuest soup kitchen server but it’s voluntary I can’t even get engaged with discussions down here on the street level, I am pissed about the upper levels, the pet military contracts for expensive hardware that even the military does not want, but that some contractor padded through some legislator’s bill,

I’ve seen all the sides to that, since I’ve been in that sort of function. The army’s wants go to congress, and often the individual representatives fold in more products from their state, saying "We put $xxxxx into the tax coffers and the share coming back as work for people in my state isn’t in line". I’ve gotten info "back door" to congress to buy more of the "mundane" equipment because it was smart economically rather than keeping the older stuff. I’ve also seen contractors get contracts for stuff that was "nice to have" but not necessary because they were the only organization that could produce the "need to have" a couple years down the line and they’d lose their experienced employees, the tooling, and the plant that could produce the "need to have" stuff. Endless shades of grey. the junkets to foriegn lands for "fact-finding" the appalling claims that the U.S.

They look a bit silly when they’re caught. I watch regular working folks here, trying to "get over" whenever they can. I don’t expect higher standards from congresscritters. just "cannot afford" to help out with heating bills or skyrocketing tuition, but we will find the money to paste Iraq a good one. We can afford to do almost anything. We can. We choose not to.

Ah, and there’s where I go in a different direction than some. My sons (second one just moved back home) have a $0 heating bill because they made the choice to accept Dad’s roof with Dad’s restrictions. If there are millions out there who could do that (and I exempt the abused from this contention, naturally), how much should be taken from my check for those who expect a standard of living that they can’t afford, or how much from the small checks my sons get. The 20 year old who wants a new car and nice apartment with no roomies may be "underprivileged" or may just be unrealistic. A few years, some more education, and some "up the corporate" ladder is a cure they can implement rather than looking for a cure from someone else. Colin

SpiritQuest

Response:

I know some good but bitter folks at the local state agencies who complain that the help available to those who *need* it, is so little because such a big portion goes to those who don’t, but who "fit the formula". SpiritQuest soup kitchen server but it’s voluntary

I can’t even get engaged with discussions down here on the street level, I am pissed about the upper levels, the pet military contracts for expensive hardware that even the military does not want, but that some contractor padded through some legislator’s bill, the junkets to foriegn lands for "fact-finding" the appalling claims that the U.S. just "cannot afford" to help out with heating bills or skyrocketing tuition, but we will find the money to paste Iraq a good one. We can afford to do almost anything. We can. We choose not to. Colin

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Political liberalism is, at base, the philosophy that personal liberty and the good of the individual is supreme to other political concerns. Liberals frame their political views as being in defense of individual liberties.

Conservatives have hijacked that sentiment when it comes to making money, "less government interference" they say. . . . I think of liberals as those who grew up understanding that the deck can be stacked against you at birth, and that therefore some public redress may be appropriate.

And conservatives will look to the government to protect them from the world economy, public redress in the name of tariffs and subsidies and the use of Federal lands for personal profits in mining and timber. And, I suppose, conservatives may require public redress to further their agenda against individual choice and the private morality of one’s sexual orientation and nowadays, even their Post-Homeland Security Bill reading choices at the local library. . . . From what I understand, the essence of conservatism is its emphasis on tradition as a source of wisdom that goes beyond what can be demonstrated or even explicitly stated. Traditional values – hard work is rewarded, saving money will provide for your needs – don’t always work out as anticipated, at least in my opinion. Not for everyone.

The traditions of the Capitalist Barons are rich indeed. . . Colin

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eek. liberal *is* the middle. anyway, it was once

It is a scary story, the story of how liberal became a dirty word. . . . Colin

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Colin!!! LTNS!!! welcome back! azure

Hello Azure, I have capitalized your A in recognition of this most August moment. Colin

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Very thought-provoking, Jack. The part I pasted above is the only one I thoroughly disagree with. That’s why I pasted it here. I think the problem that causes all of this vitriolic right/left conservative/liberal clap-trap runs deeper. What do you believe the deeper problem is? Colin You’re saying that you embrace the liberal sentiment on all the other issues?

No. I said that I agreed with you. And you ask what the problem is?

I don’t need to ask. I can see it right here. You’re so damn stuck in a us/them mentality that you completely missed the fact that I agreed with you. I refuse to get stuck in us/them conservative/liberal right/left, but, nonetheless find that I get pigeonholed anyway. Colin

Response:

Heya Colin, and welcome back. Missed seein ya }

Hey. I’ll lay the "blame" for the differences on families. When Joe and Ralph are teenagers and want something, and one dad digs into his pocket, while the other responds with "I had a paper-delivery job when I was your age", I think that’s a clear sign of the differences we grow up with.

On an individual level, I had to earn my way to freedom. Jack, I think, would not know that about me. And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide.

Unfortunately, I cannot agree with any of the definitions thus far provided. There too many wealthy conservatives who did not earn the trust fund or the inheritance that they so bitterly do not want to pay taxes on, who collect social security as well as utterly unearned pensions ( golden parachutes ) who open a post office box in Bermuda to avoid paying corporate taxes, who find greasy accountants to help them avoid paying personal income taxes on "farms" ( tax shelters) that they are being *paid subsidies* to not grow upon, who lambast welfare as they lobby for government "assistance" in setting up foriegn manufacturing, and they will be the last to recognize that they are suckling at the teat of public largesse. There were only conservatives who lobbied for a provision in the NAFTA treaty to allow corporations to sue governments if government regulations "damaged" their ability to make a profit. There is a lawsuit being played out in California right now, the Canadian manufacturer of a gasoline additive found to be harmful, is suing for $750,000,000.00. And, we grow up with "they", this unidentiable entity that’s supposed to move in and be a good Dad to us, if we follow the liberal line of thinking (Hey, canya tell I’m a conservative).

It is far more complicated than Jack’s black and white universe. Colin

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this "creed" perfectly describes the thinking of every liberal leftist i have ever met!

"liberal leftist" is an oxymoron. the left has no political voice in north america at the present time. cal

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this "creed" perfectly describes the thinking of every liberal leftist i have ever met! "liberal leftist" is an oxymoron. the left has no political voice in north america at the present time. cal

Actually, a liberal sociopolitical mindset has dominated Canada and the US for 40+ years. BroJack

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this "creed" perfectly describes the thinking of every liberal leftist i have ever met! thank you for posting it, BroJack. i will use it as resource material the next time i am being lambasted for being a conservative. ps. i always admire your clear and concise point of view. you have a powerful mind and you aren’t afraid to use it. i like that.

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I agree Catherine – the truth of the matter lays somewhere in the middle of either position.

eek. liberal *is* the middle. anyway, it was once cal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, you … I’m not an expert on the whole liberal/conservative question by any means. I can speak, at most, from my own experience. And I’m not going to talk about Alan or Jack or anyone specifically, eh? Now, if I just *bought* my first .22 rifle, and the fellow next to me was complaining that he wished he had one, but his dad just *refused* to get him one, we have a conservative and liberal sitting side-by-side. I think I disagree. I know I want to think about this. I’m just learning to frame my own political views (belatedly) so bear with me, eh? Political liberalism is, at base, the philosophy that personal liberty and the good of the individual is supreme to other political concerns. Liberals frame their political views as being in defense of individual liberties. The "left" can range from modern liberalism, extending through social democrats and moderate socialists into communism. My mother (age 83) is a life-long liberal (self-described) – educated during the Depression and shaped by the Union movement – much as your father was a union activist, I think I recall you saying. Her father was a coal-miner. She doesn’t see herself as having had a life of entitlement, but rather as having compassion for those who cannot partake of what this society has to offer through no fault of their own. And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide. I think of liberals as those who grew up understanding that the deck can be stacked against you at birth, and that therefore some public redress may be appropriate. From what I understand, the essence of conservatism is its emphasis on tradition as a source of wisdom that goes beyond what can be demonstrated or even explicitly stated. Traditional values – hard work is rewarded, saving money will provide for your needs – don’t always work out as anticipated, at least in my opinion. Not for everyone. Catherine

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Hey, you … I’m not an expert on the whole liberal/conservative question by any means. I can speak, at most, from my own experience. And I’m not going to talk about Alan or Jack or anyone specifically, eh? Now, if I just *bought* my first .22 rifle, and the fellow next to me was complaining that he wished he had one, but his dad just *refused* to get him one, we have a conservative and liberal sitting side-by-side.

I think I disagree. I know I want to think about this. I’m just learning to frame my own political views (belatedly) so bear with me, eh? Political liberalism is, at base, the philosophy that personal liberty and the good of the individual is supreme to other political concerns. Liberals frame their political views as being in defense of individual liberties. The "left" can range from modern liberalism, extending through social democrats and moderate socialists into communism. My mother (age 83) is a life-long liberal (self-described) – educated during the Depression and shaped by the Union movement – much as your father was a union activist, I think I recall you saying. Her father was a coal-miner. She doesn’t see herself as having had a life of entitlement, but rather as having compassion for those who cannot partake of what this society has to offer through no fault of their own. And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide.

I think of liberals as those who grew up understanding that the deck can be stacked against you at birth, and that therefore some public redress may be appropriate. From what I understand, the essence of conservatism is its emphasis on tradition as a source of wisdom that goes beyond what can be demonstrated or even explicitly stated. Traditional values – hard work is rewarded, saving money will provide for your needs – don’t always work out as anticipated, at least in my opinion. Not for everyone. Catherine

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Well, *I’m* an expert on *everything*, so I’ll give you wise counsel where appropriate, saving the *inappropriate* for other than political positions } Now, if I just *bought* my first .22 rifle, and the fellow next to me was complaining that he wished he had one, but his dad just *refused* to get him one, we have a conservative and liberal sitting side-by-side. I think I disagree. I know I want to think about this. I’m just learning to frame my own political views (belatedly) so bear with me, eh?

I have nothing against nudism } Political liberalism is, at base, the philosophy that personal liberty and the good of the individual is supreme to other political concerns. Liberals frame their political views as being in defense of individual

I think the difference between the liberal and the conservative is the matter of whose liberties are to be preserved. I contend that you can’t grant more liberty to one person without taking some liberty from another, but I hear what you’re saying. liberties. The "left" can range from modern liberalism, extending through social democrats and moderate socialists into communism. My mother (age 83) is a life-long liberal (self-described) – educated during the Depression and shaped by the Union movement – much as your father was a union activist, I think I recall you saying. Her father was a coal-miner. She doesn’t see herself as having had a life of entitlement, but rather as having compassion for those who cannot partake of what this society has to offer through no fault of their own.

Yep, Dad was a union type, at the lower-mid level. And his son was (and is) pretty well against the union’s representation of "management". We never had an argument. We talked about fishing. I understand that. If we use the word "cannot", we get into shades of grey, but by *my* definition "Even if needed to, to keep someone from dropping my child off a cliff", that works for me. Provide for those who cannot. And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide. I think of liberals as those who grew up understanding that the deck can be stacked against you at birth, and that therefore some public redress may be appropriate.

Catherine! :)} Is this a test of self-control? "redress"? and in *public* yet? ……OK, back to pretending to be sane. I like the word "assistance", not as in "public assistance" which means get on and stay on. I’m closer to "OK, I picked you up, now walk". From what I understand, the essence of conservatism is its emphasis on tradition as a source of wisdom that goes beyond what can be demonstrated or even explicitly stated. Traditional values – hard work is rewarded, saving money will provide for your needs – don’t always work out as anticipated, at least in my opinion. Not for everyone.

I think that, from the dictionary definition and the poly-sci definition, that’s probably it. I think of what you said above as "self-responsibility", and the alternative as something akin to "poor me". Then again, I’m just a wee bit to the conservative side } Still, where we seem to encounter our anger is in rationalizing our wants into either the conservative or liberal framework. When my taxes drop from 25K to 23K because of some tax break, and someone who didn’t see a drop in the 3K he pays for the same services actually *complains* about the great deal I got, I get a bit tense in the shoulders. I think the liberal election platform is that you *can* have more circuses and cotton candy and nobody will *really* have to pay for it. When the social cushion is such that it’s a better deal than getting an entry-level job and living with whomever you can get to share expenses, we encourage folks *not* to work. I’ve actually interviewed folks who told me they would be very *bad* secretaries, but had to come in in order to continue to get the benefits they were currently getting. I have other folks with that level of income who have a roomie or two and who do quite well. Catherine

*SMoooooch* Glad you’ve joined into this. Always good to see another moderate like myself } SpiritQuest looking hard at April 15 the *cost* of liberalism }

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X-No-Archive: yes I agree Catherine – the truth of the matter lays somewhere in the middle of either position.

Yes, and…..er….. um….. OK, you two are plotting against me } And when you thru with the middle of the position you do a public redress. and, then folks come along and blame poor ole SQ :)} SpiritQuest So, pushing my funny button eh? :)}

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X-No-Archive: yes I think of that as your taking the conservative approach. You made choices that caused you to be successful and self-sufficient. In the end – but it was a long hard often hungry trip.

But you didn’t make someone *else’s* life hungrier, doing it that way. Well – I’ve always been a mixture. In my 30’s I went back to school – worked two jobs and got some grants – did it on my own. Years later my mother bought me a car with the money they didn’t spend on my college. She took twenty years to offer that and it took me that long to be able to accept it.

I *strongly* believe in family. I wonder how many folks are getting social assistance because it’s a simple alternative to helping each other. Why should my sister be $3000 short when I can get that amount from "society"? I don’t remember ever thinking that kind of thing. I was stubborn to a fault. What I got I earned myself.

Same here. Traded college for 5 years of military service, and did night school to get more degrees. That makes me "lucky" in the eyes of those who didn’t care to do that. No – but if you downright had to would you? The people who have to – no arrogance involved on their part – the ones who really need. Those folks I take a great deal of pride and pleasure in leading them to help.

If I had to ask, I would. I wouldn’t use a word like "deserve". Nor would I think that a shelter and a hot meal were less than I was "owed". If I were pointed to an honest way of making money I’d feel grateful to those who contributed to that organization. I would hope that it was voluntary contri butions. I have no problem with liberals contributing all of *their* income they want } I have a million stories I could tell ya of different types of people looking for help. My job is to help them find it and not judge them and for the most part I try to do that. Some days it hard.

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You believe that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You believe that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack Very thought-provoking, Jack. The part I pasted above is the only one I thoroughly disagree with. That’s why I pasted it here. I think the problem that causes all of this vitriolic right/left conservative/liberal clap-trap runs deeper. What do you believe the deeper problem is? Colin

You’re saying that you embrace the liberal sentiment on all the other issues? And you ask what the problem is? Jack

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Colin!!! LTNS!!! welcome back! azure – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You believe that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack Very thought-provoking, Jack. The part I pasted above is the only one I thoroughly disagree with. That’s why I pasted it here. I think the problem that causes all of this vitriolic right/left conservative/liberal clap-trap runs deeper. What do you believe the deeper problem is? Colin

Response:

What’s your point Bro ? sumbuddie wants duex know And you believe that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack

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Response:

What’s your point Bro ? sumbuddie wants duex know

Take the test, Alan. Bet you fail every item. BroJack

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Heya Colin, and welcome back. Missed seein ya } And, I can’t pass up (aw, hell, I *can*, but I love em) a good exchange on "society". :)} I’ll lay the "blame" for the differences on families. When Joe and Ralph are teenagers and want something, and one dad digs into his pocket, while the other responds with "I had a paper-delivery job when I was your age", I think that’s a clear sign of the differences we grow up with. I think it’s spread all through our childhood, since Dad’s attitude toward "if you want it" probably isn’t a sudden thing. I remember working in crop fields at 11 or 12, and doing the "small stuff", changing oil, changing tires at a local garage at around 14. That’s not "my hardship life". Heck, I had *money*. :)} Now, if I just *bought* my first .22 rifle, and the fellow next to me was complaining that he wished he had one, but his dad just *refused* to get him one, we have a conservative and liberal sitting side-by-side. And I *know* it sounds demeaning, or deprecating, or one of those "de" words, but I think of liberals as those who grew up with Dad providing, and who expect to leave his house and have "society" provide. I remember a short local newsclip where a father was at home, unemployed, drawing some kind of benefits, saying into the news camera "Yes, I opened the fire hydrant. My kids have nothing to do. *They* haven’t put a place in the neighborhood where kids can play". That man’s a liberal, in my mind. A conservative thinks of card games, and dominoes, and making things out of whatever is available because they are *his* kids. It’s not a matter of "Hey, society, here’s the kid we had". And, we grow up with "they", this unidentiable entity that’s supposed to move in and be a good Dad to us, if we follow the liberal line of thinking (Hey, canya tell I’m a conservative). That’s more than wordy enough as a start } Again, hi, and welcome back } SpiritQuest liberal the amount of bacon grease it takes to fry *good* eggs

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You believe the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding. You believe that the same teacher who can’t teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex. You believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat, than US nuclear weapons technology, in the hands of Chinese communists. You believe that there was no art before Federal funding. You believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the earth’s climate, and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs. You believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural. You are against capital punishment but support abortion on demand. You believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity. You believe that hunters don’t care about nature, but loony activists who’ve never been outside of a city do. You believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it. You believe the military, not corrupt politicians, start wars. You believe the NRA is bad, because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution. You believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high. You believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides aren’t. You believe Hillary Clinton is really a lady. You believe that the only reason socialism hasn’t worked anywhere it’s been tried, is because the right people haven’t been in charge. You believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and sex offender belongs in the White House. You believe that homosexual parades displaying drag, transvestites and bestiality should be constitutionally protected and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal. You believe that illegal Democratic Party funding by the Chinese is somehow in the best interest of the United States. And you believe that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy. BroJack

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Accounting Talk » Office Accounting » Problems with American Flyers

Problems with American Flyers

Question:

Never said they didn’t have good training for those that responded. I just question their business ethics. If you ignore it maybe it will go away doesn’t make for good business. Chris

Response:

I used their finish up instrument program at Pompano Beach a few years back. I thought they were very professional and managed to finish my rating in a week or so within the price they quoted. Their designated examiner was also an accident investigator for the NTSB. I felt I got a solid instrument checkride from him and I also learned some informative things regarding his experiences investigating IFR accidents. greg — Rights do not exist in nature. Rights are a concept constructed by humans to protect certain freedoms, but have degenerated into pleas for special privilege by nearly every group and individual in America who want something they do not have. –M. Shermer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They made the terms of the agreement very clear to me when I signed up, and stressed the fact that it would take a while to get a refund. I actually got money back on my $6000 deposit towards Part 141 Instrument Pilot Course without making a noise! It did take some time, but I did end up with a cheque in the mail. I finished the Part 141 training with the minimum requirements and was therefore entitled to something like $300 back. I also flew with multiple instructors although I hade made clear that I was reluctant to do so. However, that turned out great; the instructors were very nice and thourough. They also always managed to pick up where the previous instructor left off. I ended up flying with 5 different instructors. With one of them I only flew once. In the end, I was really impressed about how smoothly everything worked out. I always managed to get scheduled when I had time to fly, and it was a no-bullshit operation where they never attempted to milk more money from me than necessary. The only hickup was that my certificate application was delayed in Chicago so there was a delay in getting my permanent certificate. Once I got hold of the local AF Director, evertything fell into place, and I received a telegraphic message (fax) from Oklahoma City in lieu of a certificate within a couple of days, and the certificate a week later. My guess is that there may be big differences between American Flyers’ locations. The way you get treated, and the service offered highly depends on the individuals that run the local offices. Apparently the Hayward office is very well organized, and everybody there was very friendly and helpful. Before I signed up for the instrument training I took their 3-day ground school, and since I liked the way things looked, I signed up. -ascs The good news is they reserve their special treatment for people that demand a refund. I was a low-level employee there and also received flight instruction from them. While there I received thorough training. At the larger locations they really know all the Examiners and can almost tell you minute by minute what will happen on a checkride. You just have to insist that you not get passed from instructor to instructor. After everything I went through, if I had the time and money, I would probably use them for flight training, although I wouldn’t leave more than $100 on deposit with them. I never saw them practice creative accounting or pad a bill from a regular customer. In my opinion they just don’t mind making a customer that demands a refund sorry they ever walked in the front door. Is the salesman, I mean Director, that signed you up treating you like Typhoid Mary? I’ve seen them cut a check for a "troublesome customer" in a week or less. It’s hard to say if the hold up on the refund is due to the National Office or the local office. My opinion is that the National Office causes some of the problem due to inattention. They leave the dirty work to the local offices. Good luck.

Response:

They made the terms of the agreement very clear to me when I signed up, and stressed the fact that it would take a while to get a refund. I actually got money back on my $6000 deposit towards Part 141 Instrument Pilot Course without making a noise! It did take some time, but I did end up with a cheque in the mail. I finished the Part 141 training with the minimum requirements and was therefore entitled to something like $300 back. I also flew with multiple instructors although I hade made clear that I was reluctant to do so. However, that turned out great; the instructors were very nice and thourough. They also always managed to pick up where the previous instructor left off. I ended up flying with 5 different instructors. With one of them I only flew once. In the end, I was really impressed about how smoothly everything worked out. I always managed to get scheduled when I had time to fly, and it was a no-bullshit operation where they never attempted to milk more money from me than necessary. The only hickup was that my certificate application was delayed in Chicago so there was a delay in getting my permanent certificate. Once I got hold of the local AF Director, evertything fell into place, and I received a telegraphic message (fax) from Oklahoma City in lieu of a certificate within a couple of days, and the certificate a week later. My guess is that there may be big differences between American Flyers’ locations. The way you get treated, and the service offered highly depends on the individuals that run the local offices. Apparently the Hayward office is very well organized, and everybody there was very friendly and helpful. Before I signed up for the instrument training I took their 3-day ground school, and since I liked the way things looked, I signed up. -ascs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The good news is they reserve their special treatment for people that demand a refund. I was a low-level employee there and also received flight instruction from them. While there I received thorough training. At the larger locations they really know all the Examiners and can almost tell you minute by minute what will happen on a checkride. You just have to insist that you not get passed from instructor to instructor. After everything I went through, if I had the time and money, I would probably use them for flight training, although I wouldn’t leave more than $100 on deposit with them. I never saw them practice creative accounting or pad a bill from a regular customer. In my opinion they just don’t mind making a customer that demands a refund sorry they ever walked in the front door. Is the salesman, I mean Director, that signed you up treating you like Typhoid Mary? I’ve seen them cut a check for a "troublesome customer" in a week or less. It’s hard to say if the hold up on the refund is due to the National Office or the local office. My opinion is that the National Office causes some of the problem due to inattention. They leave the dirty work to the local offices. Good luck.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone ever tried to get a refund from these people. It is like pulling teeth. They tell me that it takes a couple of months to get the request to the Chicago office and from there it has been three months and they still have not processed the request due to the high amount of refunds they have been asked for and they don’t have the money to refund it to you. Not to mention read all their fine print before signing up with them, they have a discounted course for CFI of 2600.00 for the course, however if you get a refund they take the amount of time and multiply that at their normal instruction rate of 55.00 per hour and that is how they refund the difference. Nice way of doing business. Unfortunately for me I did not check with the Better Business Bureau or the States Attorney Generals office before doing business with them. My complaint to them is one of many on the company. Has anyone else had these or any other problems with them? Chris

Chris I used to work for the office at Ft Lauderdale, FL (Corp HQ at DuPage, IL). What you are getting is the standard "refund procedure". You’ll get your refund when you cause enough trouble and not a day before. They are earning interest on your money and will until the day after you go nuclear. I’d suggest there is probably plenty of wiggle room in their contract about exactly when a refund will be paid. If you have an attorney and he finds some way to rush them, he should do it. They repay refunds according to who causes the most trouble. I’m sure you’ve already done it, but telling them you won’t fly there again and recommend everyone you know do likewise isn’t going to make any difference to them. When you sign up for CFI Academy, you get a "group discount" on certain items like ground instruction and books. When you demand a refund they will charge you at the full undiscounted rate, as you discovered. This is in the fine print of the contract. They will also charge you for every molecule of air you have consumed while on site. Have they told you that they use their CFI Academy as a screening process and that if you keep causing trouble they will not consider you for employment as CFI? I was there when they told this to a 62 year old Veterinarian. I can’t tell you how many tears he cried over the prospect of not being able to be a CFI for $7/hour in 1994. The good news is they reserve their special treatment for people that demand a refund. I was a low-level employee there and also received flight instruction from them. While there I received thorough training. At the larger locations they really know all the Examiners and can almost tell you minute by minute what will happen on a checkride. You just have to insist that you not get passed from instructor to instructor. After everything I went through, if I had the time and money, I would probably use them for flight training, although I wouldn’t leave more than $100 on deposit with them. I never saw them practice creative accounting or pad a bill from a regular customer. In my opinion they just don’t mind making a customer that demands a refund sorry they ever walked in the front door. Is the salesman, I mean Director, that signed you up treating you like Typhoid Mary? I’ve seen them cut a check for a "troublesome customer" in a week or less. It’s hard to say if the hold up on the refund is due to the National Office or the local office. My opinion is that the National Office causes some of the problem due to inattention. They leave the dirty work to the local offices. Good luck.

Response:

Has anyone else had these or any other problems with them?

They ripped me off for significantly less money when they pulled the plug on their on-line NOS chart system. They were not overly responsive to my inquiries.

Response:

Has anyone ever tried to get a refund from these people. It is like pulling teeth. They tell me that it takes a couple of months to get the request to the Chicago office and from there it has been three months and they still have not processed the request due to the high amount of refunds they have been asked for and they don’t have the money to refund it to you. Not to mention read all their fine print before signing up with them, they have a discounted course for CFI of 2600.00 for the course, however if you get a refund they take the amount of time and multiply that at their normal instruction rate of 55.00 per hour and that is how they refund the difference. Nice way of doing business. Unfortunately for me I did not check with the Better Business Bureau or the States Attorney Generals office before doing business with them. My complaint to them is one of many on the company. Has anyone else had these or any other problems with them? Chris

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Office Accounting
Tags: Office Accounting

Accounting Talk » Financial Accounting » The weakness of accounting is due to the double entry not accountants

The weakness of accounting is due to the double entry not accountants

Question:

Good grief people. If you know anything at all about QB, you would realize that you cannot simply put an entry into the "Opening Balance Equity" account without an offsetting entry into another account. And yes, the "Opening Balance Equity" is a very integral part of QB. QB is one of many double-entry accounting packages available for small businesses. I am a Certified QuickBooks ProAdvisor, and I know the software inside and out. 99% of the problems I see from clients who use QB is that they don’t know the first thing about accounting and how to post entries into the system. The only problem I have with QB is that it does not allow for the closing of periods the way other accounting packages (such as Peachtree) have. However, QB does allow for a "closing date", which works something like the closing of a period in other software. — Kenneth Reid, CPP MasterType Computer Services Professional Accounting and Payroll Services 6312 N. Milwaukee Avenue Chicago, IL 60646-3786 (773) 792-1910 (877) 754-1913 (Outside Chicago) (773) 792-1950 – FAX www.mcschicago.com www.mastertypecomputerservices.com

entry, but it isn’t. One of – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the equity accounts is a plug. Jim

Response:

Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug.

Hallelujah and Amen!!! Someone finally agrees with me! {:-) FWK

Response:

No. I think he may be on to something, but is having a difficult time getting his point across. Although sometimes lengthy & seemingly rambling, there’s been nothing objectionable. Let’s hear what he has to say. FWK

Response:

How do you say that you that you filtered our posts while you said a week ago that you will use a kill filter to stop reading our posts? Isn’t that a contradiction? Or do you consider it otherwise?

Response:

In all fairness to the "tool", the software, whatever brand, GI = GO. The problem is not the software but the user. Any bookkeeping systems, hand journal – ledger or software only works if it is operated correctly. What I do not understand is why those people don’t get someone (accountant) to set their system up for them. Guess, their daddy never told them about an ounce of prevention …

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of my contractor tax clients had a bookkeeper that booked all the construction draws to revenues and all the loan repayments to expense, then booked the sale to revenue also and the loan pay-off to expense. In effect, for a $250K house there was ~$500K in revenues and ~$500K in expenses. They thought they were "so cool" and their tax return would be "so easy" to prepare. I had a new would-be client show up just before April 15 last year with some QB printouts and the familiar refrain, "It is all there". Among other things, the cash account was massively overdrawn and the payables had a huge debit balance. I told the lady that I would do her company’s tax return ONLY if she gave me a hand prepared set of numbers to work from for which she was prepared to take full responsibility. I’m becoming increasingly afraid to even look at some of these QB messes. If I work from a backup I have the entire electronic record, there is never enough time and money to fix them, and there is effectively no limit to the

potential liability. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim

Response:

QB, yup. First time I saw it I was initially amazed (as in shocked and disgusted) anyone would use it. Fifteen minutes later I figured it out what the motivation (not good motivation) was. It is kind of like heroin, makes you feel good, but ain’t no good for you. OTOH, I think QB is useful as an illustration of why a parliamentary democracy is inferior to a republic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting. I completely agree. I may get flamed for saying this – but oh-well. Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug. Jim

– * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant. * * From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia, * * the Seventh worst state for business, * * Ayn Rand was right *

Response:

Yup, it’s the "You F’d up and here it is"…..AKA "Opening Balance Equity". What amazes me is the number of people with QB that think their financials are useful, correct, etc, when they have loans in and out of the Income statement, all the car payments go to "auto expense", and revenues include all moneys deposited to the bank account. One of my contractor tax clients had a bookkeeper that booked all the construction draws to revenues and all the loan repayments to expense, then booked the sale to revenue also and the loan pay-off to expense. In effect, for a $250K house there was ~$500K in revenues and ~$500K in expenses. They thought they were "so cool" and their tax return would be "so easy" to prepare. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

Response:

One of my contractor tax clients had a bookkeeper that booked all the construction draws to revenues and all the loan repayments to expense, then booked the sale to revenue also and the loan pay-off to expense. In effect, for a $250K house there was ~$500K in revenues and ~$500K in expenses. They thought they were "so cool" and their tax return would be "so easy" to prepare.

I had a new would-be client show up just before April 15 last year with some QB printouts and the familiar refrain, "It is all there". Among other things, the cash account was massively overdrawn and the payables had a huge debit balance. I told the lady that I would do her company’s tax return ONLY if she gave me a hand prepared set of numbers to work from for which she was prepared to take full responsibility. I’m becoming increasingly afraid to even look at some of these QB messes. If I work from a backup I have the entire electronic record, there is never enough time and money to fix them, and there is effectively no limit to the potential liability. Jim

Response:

Now’s the time to show him a hammer and tell him you’re going to build a house! ;) — Brandon Sommerville CaseView Solutions Taking care of your Caseview needs caseview at consultant dot com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Convincing must be achieved through discussions to get to the truth but we do not see any scientific style in your post. Well that would make my posts the equal of yours. Aside: "We"? Who does this jerk think he’s fooling with his "we" crapola? I’m quite sure the "we" is real. I’m also sure that the Strategetic center folks are clueless with regards to "western culture", including western accounting. I’ve been hoping that we could get some real discussion going and all learn a little more about each other. So far that has not happened.

I filtered out Strategic Center posts after they showed they had no idea what they were discussing. Now I only see posts from those who effectively agree, but waste time debating them. If we agree on this we may be able to get Usenet to stop their posts here. Any supporters for this? How anyone from anywhere can look at the Enron / Andersen mess and then say that "The weakness of accounting is due to the double entry not accountants" is totally beyond me. Nevertheless, as a dedicated student of human behavior and beliefs, I’m not willing to conclude that they don’t believe it. Interesting. Jim Hudspeth

Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Lowest QB Prices http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting. I completely agree. I may get flamed for saying this – but oh-well. Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug. Jim

I agree Quickbooks should Require Accounts for every entry, so they balance. However,, this is one of many Preferences you can and should set. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Lowest QB Prices http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

Not here. Further, I don’t understand your angst. While the Strategetic center folks clearly do not understand double entry accounting, they are putting voice to a little understood problem of massive importance – the search for an easy fix. We (USA) are addicted to easy fixes. We pop pills instead of working on diet and exercise. We buy toys for our kids instead of spending time with them. We build cities in wetlands and then try to fix the problems with disaster relief. The list is almost endless. Now some Egyptians show up here trying to sell us another easy fix and we get all "wrapped around the axle". Why is this Egyptian "snake oil" any worse that the countless other varieties that we deal with every day? Ultimately, the Strategetic center folks will either get off their present obsession and join us in some meaningful discussion on some other topic (my hope) or go away under their own power. Either way is better than for us to attempt to push them away. Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA

Response:

Yes, if you do not work with them often, but it seems personal contact is the easiest thing we can sell. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Lowest QB Prices http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

I thought my clients were the only ones who did this. They also have booked draws as expense reimbursements. Fortunately, QB makes it easy to change. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Lowest QB Prices http://blocktax.com/lowest_QuickBooks_prices.htm Free 462p QB Book http://blocktax.com/free-quickbooks-book.htm Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm Shortcuts Download http://blocktax.com/quickbooks_shortcuts.htm 200 QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

I may get flamed for saying this – but oh-well. Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug. I agree Quickbooks should Require Accounts for every entry, so they balance. However,, this is one of many Preferences you can and should set.

I’m certainly not holding myself out as a QB expert, however it is my understanding that "Opening Balance Equity" is an integral part of the program – not a preference. To the best of my knowledge, it is not possible to setup QB in such a way that it becomes a true double entry system. Jim Hudspeth, CPA

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I filtered out Strategic Center posts after they showed they had no idea what they were discussing. Now I only see posts from those who effectively agree, but waste time debating them. If we agree on this we may be able to get Usenet to stop their posts here. Any supporters for this? Not here. Further, I don’t understand your angst. While the Strategetic center folks clearly do not understand double entry accounting, they are putting voice to a little understood problem of massive importance – the search for an easy fix. We (USA) are addicted to easy fixes. We pop pills instead of working on diet and exercise. We buy toys for our kids instead of spending time with them. We build cities in wetlands and then try to fix the problems with disaster relief. The list is almost endless. Now some Egyptians show up here trying to sell us another easy fix and we get all "wrapped around the axle". Why is this Egyptian "snake oil" any worse that the countless other varieties that we deal with every day? Ultimately, the Strategetic center folks will either get off their present obsession and join us in some meaningful discussion on some other topic (my hope) or go away under their own power. Either way is better than for us to attempt to push them away.

There in another unit the exponential increase of which during the last 3 to 4 centuries is a basic economic factor many prefer to ignore: human population units Cultures and countries investing primarily in population growth (geographically mostly in the south) sometimes try to find reasons why the resources (expressed in units) per human population unit result in a lower ratio than in areas (Europe currently has the lowest population growth of all continents) investing relatively more in material goods. By migration areas with a high population production surplus currently try to export to those with meagre growth. Rather than making a moral or self-centered judgement on cultural superiority (criteria ?), we might rather use double-entry accounting tools including both monetary and non-monetary units to show the trade-offs involved in resource allocation. And by remembering: the sum of all wishes expressed in units of consumables vastly exceeds the sum of all resources likewise expressed in units. Relative scarcity is part of the definition of the human condition. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends email encryption using GnuPG.

Response:

There in another unit the exponential increase of which during the last 3 to 4 centuries is a basic economic factor many prefer to ignore: human population units

<snip Rather than making a moral or self-centered judgement on cultural superiority (criteria ?), we might rather use double-entry accounting tools including both monetary and non-monetary units to show the trade-offs involved in resource allocation.

Certainly an interesting point of view. I need to think about this before I comment. Jim

Response:

Some writers of the accounting theory think that there are basic ideas that accompanied the accounting conception during its development , these ideas and basic rules are summarized as follows: I-The organization’s manager was obligated to present reports to the investors which include the organization’s activity .These reports were represented in a budget in the form of periodical publications that led to record the accounting data in books to present them to the investors. The idea of recording began in the ancient history , during the Islamic age and in the ancient civilizations like Papel, Ashore and Pharos . It is currently named the process of accessing accounting data . 2-The need to audit data to verify their correctness arise. Some people related it to the human element weakness . It is known currently as the internal auditing and the external auditing verification of the correctness of the accounting data . In fact the need to audit data is due to the weakness of the double entry system in its mechanical performance and continuous verification to its assets and their resources while the human element is not the reason as it created the computer system which covers that weakness .The debit and credit system is inable to cover the accounting operation with all its sides . Even using auditing in the double entry system does not cover all these goals . 3-To provide the right basis for the management to make the necessary decisions for the organization’s future there has to be analyses with the accounting data to make the appropriate decisions .In the double entry system,the main source of analyzing data was the credit and debit concept which analyzes these data and form information in reports to make decision ,but it is inable to analyze the accounting operation itself the right analysis,it is also inable to explain the unit and show it in reports so it depended on explanation which is not related to money. In conclusion ,there are no rules that imposed themselves during the development of accountancy in modern ages,which is estimated by seven hundred years,but modern scientific means imposed themselves on the development of accountancy and showed its defects. In fact programmers and practical accountants tried to develop the accountancy science even if they have to ignore some traditional accounting rules.

Response:

<<SNIP The weakness of accounting is due to the intrusion of people, such as yourself, that don’t know the first thing about accounting. easy2000

Response:

Convincing must be achieved through discussions to get to the truth but we do not see any scientific style in your post.

Response:

Convincing must be achieved through discussions to get to the truth but we do not see any scientific style in your post.

Well that would make my posts the equal of yours. Aside: "We"? Who does this jerk think he’s fooling with his "we" crapola? easy2000

Response:

Convincing must be achieved through discussions to get to the truth but we do not see any scientific style in your post. Well that would make my posts the equal of yours. Aside: "We"? Who does this jerk think he’s fooling with his "we" crapola?

I’m quite sure the "we" is real. I’m also sure that the Strategetic center folks are clueless with regards to "western culture", including western accounting. I’ve been hoping that we could get some real discussion going and all learn a little more about each other. So far that has not happened. How anyone from anywhere can look at the Enron / Andersen mess and then say that "The weakness of accounting is due to the double entry not accountants" is totally beyond me. Nevertheless, as a dedicated student of human behavior and beliefs, I’m not willing to conclude that they don’t believe it. Interesting. Jim Hudspeth

Response:

Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting. A typical example: The book-keeper, if appropriate, enters an expense voucher into both systems, financial and cost, but only enters a debit in the cost account (so designed by the IT people) without a corresponding credit. You can imagine the consternation of the dumbfounded designers and programmers (non accountants) when they were (by definition) unable to demonstrate how to close the cost accounting cycle and reconcile it with the financial accounting results. My question was simple and stupid: where is the credit entry in the cost accounting system? In the financial accounts, one debits expense and credits accounts payable. Obviously there are occasions when cost does not equal expense, making the requirement of strict double-entries in the cost accounting cycle even more obvious. But the IT people wanted to move back 700 years to single entry accounting. Let’s remember that from Sumerian times 10,000 years ago with single-entry book-keeping and detailed inventories, it took humanity over 9,000 years until Luca Paccioli discovered the double-entry system. Apparently it may still take some time until many even well educated humans really grasp the elegance, genius and usefulness of double-entry accounting. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Marxist assassination bomb Nazi $400 million in gold bullion Treasury

Response:

I completely agree. I may get flamed for saying this – but oh-well. Even closer to home for some of us is QuickBooks. It appears to be double entry, but it isn’t. One of the equity accounts is a plug. Jim

Response:

Fr. Luca Pacioli, paper on accounting was written in 1494, almost 200 years before Newton recognized that the universe works the same way. Newton 1642 – 1727, third law is: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." And that applies to cost accounting . . . of all flavours. Or what’s a varation for? =) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, non-understanding of the double-entry system and its tremendous benefits is present in our own back yards. You must also have had discussion with IT people concerning rigorous double-entry traceability on dual accounting cycle systems for financial and cost accounting. A typical example: The book-keeper, if appropriate, enters an expense voucher into both systems, financial and cost, but only enters a debit in the cost account (so designed by the IT people) without a corresponding credit. You can imagine the consternation of the dumbfounded designers and programmers (non accountants) when they were (by definition) unable to demonstrate how to close the cost accounting cycle and reconcile it with the financial accounting results. My question was simple and stupid: where is the credit entry in the cost accounting system? In the financial accounts, one debits expense and credits accounts payable. Obviously there are occasions when cost does not equal expense, making the requirement of strict double-entries in the cost accounting cycle even more obvious. But the IT people wanted to move back 700 years to single entry accounting. Let’s remember that from Sumerian times 10,000 years ago with single-entry book-keeping and detailed inventories, it took humanity over 9,000 years until Luca Paccioli discovered the double-entry system. Apparently it may still take some time until many even well educated humans really grasp the elegance, genius and usefulness of double-entry accounting. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Marxist assassination bomb Nazi $400 million in gold bullion

Treasury

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Financial Accounting
Tags: Financial Accounting

Accounting Talk » Financial Accounting » Ownership of CPA firms

Ownership of CPA firms

Question:

Yes……BUT….do you want to be considered by the public as they consider "those people."

Well, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. As a tax practitioner, I don’t benefit from any state-enforced monopoly. I have to compete in an open marketplace where being a CPA does not necessarily pose any clear advantage. I tend to find that clients remember and recommend service providers with whom they’ve have had a favorable experience, *regardless* of credentials. MTW Please reply to newsgroup – unsolicited email ignored.

Response:

… My area of concern is the using of "CPA" as a marketing enhancement for non accounting services. In this context I am including tax prep as an accounting service.

… IMHO the only reason there has been a push from the brokerage and insurance industries to sign up cpas is to get to their natural markets. Once the cpa has finished selling to his clients, what’s left? Is the cpa going out and beat the bushes for clients with the regular agents? I’ve seen an insurance industry prediction that only those cpa firms that become insurance agencies will survive the next decade. I thought that was a silly thing to say. How many cpas can say a silly thing like that as part of a sales pitch? How many cpas can use the sales tactics necessary to close a "financial product" sale? Now many cpas can live two lives, one where they have to sell to clients as a commission agent and another where they have to adhere to the ethical standards of the accounting profession? How many men can serve two masters? — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * * * Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it. * * * * Ayn Rand was right *

Response:

Not exactly. What you want is a level playing field and a slightly taller horse (CPA credential). Not so. In many cases those various others have certifications that I don’t have (CFP, CLU, GRE, etc., etc.). Which horse is taller is very much a matter of the consumer’s opinion.

This is a real hot button issue with my non certified CFP friends. They see "CPA" as a very tall horse. For example, if anyone thinks I know more about real estate than an experienced realtor, simply because I am a CPA, they are a moron. <g

Based on my own experience, I would say that the market assumes we know more about real estate TAXATION than brokers. I realize that we often don’t. I am very careful in this area. I take time to do the research, and that sometimes includes a call to a friendly broker. You want to be able to offer the same products, but also wrap yourself in the mantle of objectivity, integrity and independence that the CPA credential provides. Not so. As a tax practitioner, I never claim to be objective or independent – and I don’t think many of my clients would like it if I was!

<clarity break Integrity is something you have to earn on your own. It is not guaranteed by virtue of licensing. People who aren’t CPAs don’t automatically lack integrity.

Agreed. I should not have used that word in the context that I did. Actually, if I were to get into this area, I would probably not mention my CPA status to non-client prospects (unless specifically required to do so by regulations) because it isn’t particularly relevant and it may give rise to erroneous expectations. For example, I know at least a few CPA-turned-stockbrokers who tell me that they *don’t* advertise their CPA status because people thereby seem to assume that all of their investment recommendations contain some magic tax gimmick.

This makes sense. While many CPAs seem to view this issue in terms of what they consider to be a "wrapping of the mantle" – thereby presuming a certain amount of self-importance (which may or may not really exist in the marketplace) – I simply view it in terms of my right as a citizen to engage in otherwise legal business activities *without* discrimination based *solely* on the fact that I’m a CPA.

My area of concern is the using of "CPA" as a marketing enhancement for non accounting services. In this context I am including tax prep as an accounting service. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

You want to be able to offer the same products, but also wrap yourself in the mantle of objectivity, integrity and independence that the CPA credential provides.

I think we all are going to have to understand that, more and more, it’s going to be our own responsibility to build our reputation, and that "credentials" are likely going to lose some of their luster as they start covering broader areas. I’ve already decided that commissioned CPAs are going to exist–I’m just not one of them, and I do plan to let clients know that. If others parties cry foul (and they often do) I simply point out that I am informing my client about my decision–let them inform their client about theirs and we’ll go forward. I’ve always found it amusing that some who receive commissions have a thin skin about anyone *mentioning* they do that, even if it is mentioned in a nonjudgemental way.

Response:

… I also think it is foolish for stock brokers, realtors, insurance dudes, etc. to get involved in tax preparation. But, since there is absolutely no movement afloat to impose restrictions on them, all I ask for is a level playing field.

… Yes……BUT….do you want to be considered by the public as they consider "those people." I predict that the first time a CPA, in a CPA practice, churns an account it is going to make the national news. — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * * * Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it. * * * * Ayn Rand was right *

Response:

… I think the lust for commissions was driven primarily by the bull market….

I think that sums up the heart of the problem perfectly. No bull market goes on forever and their are indicators that the market peak has passed. When the market starts down, all this attractive commission business is going to look mighty rotten to those cpas who signed on. Unfortunately, by then, they may be known as "stock brokers" by their traditional market. IMHO their reputations will be tarnished by associations and they will have a harder time retaining their traditional client base when times get tough. IMHO I have come to the conclusion that many cpas must have slept through their undergraduate psychology, sociology and history classes. — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * * * Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it. * * * * Ayn Rand was right *

Response:

Personally, I think it is foolish for practicing CPAs to get into commission sales.

I think it’s foolish for totally different reasons–the clients I have who do commissioned work in the financial services markets have been complaining for years that commissioned work is under attack, and the rates they are receiving have been dropping. I think the lust for commissions was driven primarily by the bull market, when it appeared "easy" to select investments. Now that we may be facing a time when dartboard stock/fund selection doesn’t work so well, we may find a few people will discover clients will start asking uncomfortable questions about why their investments have gone down…

Response:

Personally, I think it is foolish for practicing CPAs to get into commission sales. I also think it is foolish for stock brokers, realtors, insurance dudes, etc. to get involved in tax preparation.

I agree. But, since there is absolutely no movement afloat to impose restrictions on them,

<clarity break all I ask for is a level playing field.

Not exactly. What you want is a level playing field and a slightly taller horse (CPA credential). You want to be able to offer the same products, but also wrap yourself in the mantle of objectivity, integrity and independence that the CPA credential provides. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

Not exactly. What you want is a level playing field and a slightly taller horse (CPA credential).

Not so. In many cases those various others have certifications that I don’t have (CFP, CLU, GRE, etc., etc.). Which horse is taller is very much a matter of the consumer’s opinion. For example, if anyone thinks I know more about real estate than an experienced realtor, simply because I am a CPA, they are a moron. <g You want to be able to offer the same products, but also wrap yourself in the mantle of objectivity, integrity and independence that the CPA credential provides.

Not so. As a tax practitioner, I never claim to be objective or independent – and I don’t think many of my clients would like it if I was! Integrity is something you have to earn on your own. It is not guaranteed by virtue of licensing. People who aren’t CPAs don’t automatically lack integrity. Actually, if I were to get into this area, I would probably not mention my CPA status to non-client prospects (unless specifically required to do so by regulations) because it isn’t particularly relevant and it may give rise to erroneous expectations. For example, I know at least a few CPA-turned-stockbrokers who tell me that they *don’t* advertise their CPA status because people thereby seem to assume that all of their investment recommendations contain some magic tax gimmick. While many CPAs seem to view this issue in terms of what they consider to be a "wrapping of the mantle" – thereby presuming a certain amount of self-importance (which may or may not really exist in the marketplace) – I simply view it in terms of my right as a citizen to engage in otherwise legal business activities *without* discrimination based *solely* on the fact that I’m a CPA. MTW Please reply to newsgroup – unsolicited email ignored.

Response:

Personally, I think it is foolish for practicing CPAs to get into commission sales.

I also think it is foolish for stock brokers, realtors, insurance dudes, etc. to get involved in tax preparation. But, since there is absolutely no movement afloat to impose restrictions on them, all I ask for is a level playing field. MTW Please reply to newsgroup – unsolicited email ignored.

Response:

In Oregon, the hot topic seems to be revising the accountancy act so that CPA’s can accept commissions. Can CPA’s do this already in WA?

Literally as we speak the WA Board is considering a repeal of their anti-commission rule. MTW Please reply to newsgroup – unsolicited email ignored.

Response:

In Oregon, the hot topic seems to be revising the accountancy act so that CPA’s can accept commissions. Can CPA’s do this already in WA? Literally as we speak the WA Board is considering a repeal of their anti-commission rule.

The WSCPA is also pushing to get statutory approval. This would prevent the board from banning commissions. One way or the other, it is going to happen. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

In Oregon, the hot topic seems to be revising the accountancy act so that CPA’s can accept commissions.

I most states that battle has already been fought. In many cases, the state relied on the AICPA Code of Ethics, and when that was changed as part of the FTC consent decree the states followed. Generally, CPAs are allowed to accept commissions so long as the CPA firm does no attest work for that client in most states.

Response:

It’s interesting how the different state associations push different issues. In Oregon, the hot topic seems to be revising the accountancy act so that CPA’s can accept commissions. Can CPA’s do this already in WA? Any thoughts from the experts out there? Anthony

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The following is a copy and paste from a document intended by the WSCPA to become law in the State of Washington. (3) An applicant for initial issuance or renewal of a permit to practice under this section shall be required to show that: (a) A simple majority of the ownership of the firm, in terms of financial interests and voting rights of all partners, officers, shareholders, members, or managers, must belong to holders of a certificate who are certified or licensed in this state or another state, and such partners, officers, shareholders, members, or managers, whose principal place of business is in this state and who perform professional services in this state must hold a valid certificate issued under RCW 18.04.105 or the corresponding provision of prior law I am having a great deal of difficulty accepting the notion that the public interest can be adequately protected where CPA firms performing attest work can be 49% owned by persons or entities who are not CPAs. As I read this proposed rule, I see nothing that would stop Bill Gates from buying a 49% interest in the "Cognitor" firm that audits M$. I’m not comfortable with that. Are the rest of you comfortable with that? — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

In Oregon, the hot topic seems to be revising the accountancy act so that CPA’s can accept commissions. I most states that battle has already been fought. In many cases, the state relied on the AICPA Code of Ethics, and when that was changed as part of the FTC consent decree the states followed. Generally, CPAs are allowed to accept commissions so long as the CPA firm does no attest work for that client in most states.

According to the July 24 – August 6, 2000 issue of ACCOUNTING TODAY, there are presently eight states that bar commissions. They are Idaho, Oregon, Rhode Island, Alaska, Hawaii, Montana, Wyoming and Washington. My guess is that within a year we (WA) will allow them with some fairly strong disclosure requirements provided there is no attest work involved. Personally, I think it is foolish for practicing CPAs to get into commission sales. Our only inherent advantage is the fact that CPAs enjoy a high level of public trust. A few well publicized commission rip offs and a little time could easily change that. The investment related talk shows are already making this an issue. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

All the owners would be subject to the same standards as CPA’s, although I don’t know what the penalty would be if they didn’t.

I suspect the proposed penalty would be that the firm itself could be sanctioned. Of course, given the court decisions what that would really mean is that the firm could be barred only from attest functions.

Response:

We all know (or should know) that control is easily possible with a lot less than 49% ownership.

The practical matter is that many of these entities have obtained control with 0% ownership of the CPA firm–rather, the firm remains as a shell and "leases" employees as needed from the non-CPA firm entity. That’s been the AMEX design from early on…

Response:

We all know (or should know) that control is easily possible with a lot less than 49% ownership. The practical matter is that many of these entities have obtained control with 0% ownership of the CPA firm–rather, the firm remains as a shell and "leases" employees as needed from the non-CPA firm entity. That’s been the AMEX design from early on…

This really gets depressing. The further I get into this the more I’m getting the message that CPA "independence" is nothing but a illusion. CPAs don’t want to be independent and the public doesn’t care. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

The following is a copy and paste from a document intended by the WSCPA to become law in the State of Washington. (3) An applicant for initial issuance or renewal of a permit to practice under this section shall be required to show that: (a) A simple majority of the ownership of the firm, in terms of financial interests and voting rights of all partners, officers, shareholders, members, or managers, must belong to holders of a certificate who are certified or licensed in this state or another state, and such partners, officers, shareholders, members, or managers, whose principal place of business is in this state and who perform professional services in this state must hold a valid certificate issued under RCW 18.04.105 or the corresponding provision of prior law I am having a great deal of difficulty accepting the notion that the public interest can be adequately protected where CPA firms performing attest work can be 49% owned by persons or entities who are not CPAs. As I read this proposed rule, I see nothing that would stop Bill Gates from buying a 49% interest in the "Cognitor" firm that audits M$. I’m not comfortable with that. Are the rest of you comfortable with that? — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

… I am having a great deal of difficulty accepting the notion that the public interest can be adequately protected where CPA firms performing attest work can be 49% owned by persons or entities who are not CPAs.

No problem here. The business would still be under the control of the licensed owners. The unlicensed partners "could" be a valuable source of sellable knowledge and /or capital. I stress could, because I think this minority ownership movement is based on growth assumptions that are not going to happen. As I read this proposed rule, I see nothing that would stop Bill Gates from buying a 49% interest in the "Cognitor" firm that audits M$. I’m not comfortable with that. Are the rest of you comfortable with that?

Weeelllllll….. Wouldn’t the ethics standards prohibit that or at least force "the gates" to recuse "itself." I’m not much for forward speculation, but I find it very hard to see that kind of conflict of interest being allowed. I don’t think there is much fear of that happening. CPA firms have neither the long term profitability or growing market to attract such a corporate investment. "Knowledge enterprises" (what the heck ever that is this week) will want to buy off or in to the consulting sections of firms. As far as the audit & accounting firms, the only buyers I see would be the "financial community" who would want the customer base for cross selling whole life, annuities, and other high commission products. … — * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. * * * * Unemployed five years, and really beginning to enjoy it. * * * * Ayn Rand was right *

Response:

A simple majority of the ownership of the firm

As a purely technical point, I am troubled by the term "simple majority". If this is supposed to mean "greater than 50%" or "at least 51%", then it should be stated as such. But, wouldn’t that be an *absolute* majority? On the other hand, perhaps the WSCPA *wants* the rule to be vague and ambiguous… MTW Please reply to newsgroup – unsolicited email ignored.

Response:

Situations like you have posted ‘could’ happen, but I think what it is intended to allow is the integration of other professions into the CPA firm. IE: legal, IT/computer folk, investments, etc. I think Georgia is tossing around a similar provision with that intention in mind. All the owners would be subject to the same standards as CPA’s, although I don’t know what the penalty would be if they didn’t. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim Hudspeth wrote I am having a great deal of difficulty accepting the notion that the public interest can be adequately protected where CPA firms performing attest work can be 49% owned by persons or entities who are not CPAs. Situations like you have posted ‘could’ happen, but I think what it is intended to allow is the integration of other professions into the CPA firm. IE: legal, IT/computer folk, investments, etc. I think Georgia is tossing around a similar provision with that intention in mind. All the owners would be subject to the same standards as CPA’s, although I don’t know what the penalty would be if they didn’t. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia

Here in Tennessee the fastest growing areas appear to be in information technology and tax. State and local tax (SALT) specialization seems to really be on the rise at larger firms. Many of the people filling these jobs are not accountants. One firm locally formed an LLC to handle what had been its IT division in order to allow non-CPAs ownership in this fast growing function. I don’t know is keeping the functions under a separate company is better or worse than allowing direct ownership in a CPA firm, but there are clearly ways around the current prohibition. In small towns near where I live it is very common to see more than one business name on the door of a CPA firm. Example: "Joe Smith, CPA" and right under that "Smith and Jones Bookkeeping and Tax Service". I would strongly suspect this is because Mr./Ms. Jones is not a CPA, but for all practical purposes is a partner.

Response:

Jim Hudspeth wrote I am having a great deal of difficulty accepting the notion that the public interest can be adequately protected where CPA firms performing attest work can be 49% owned by persons or entities who are not CPAs. Situations like you have posted ‘could’ happen, but I think what it is intended to allow is the integration of other professions into the CPA firm. IE: legal, IT/computer folk, investments, etc. I think Georgia is tossing around a similar provision with that intention in mind. All the owners would be subject to the same standards as CPA’s, although I don’t know what the penalty would be if they didn’t.

When you are writing legislation you really need to think about the unintended consequences. The intent of the promoters doesn’t mean diddle when you’re going through an enforcement action. You can say that "All the owners would be subject to the same standards as CPA’s", but there is no effective way to enforce it. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

We have both lived too long to buy that argument. The unlicensed partners "could" be a valuable source of sellable knowledge and /or capital.

Of course they are – otherwise there would be no incentive to go this route. I stress could, because I think this minority ownership movement is based on growth assumptions that are not going to happen.

Different discussion. As I read this proposed rule, I see nothing that would stop Bill Gates from buying a 49% interest in the "Cognitor" firm that audits M$. I’m not comfortable with that. Are the rest of you comfortable with that? Weeelllllll….. Wouldn’t the ethics standards prohibit that or at least force "the gates" to recuse "itself." I’m not much for forward speculation, but I find it very hard to see that kind of conflict of interest being allowed.

If it is legal, just who, pray tell, is going to prohibit it, and how would they do it. Owners do not voluntarily "recuse" themselves. I don’t think there is much fear of that happening. CPA firms have neither the long term profitability or growing market to attract such a corporate investment. "Knowledge enterprises" (what the heck ever that is this week) will want to buy off or in to the consulting sections of firms. As far as the audit & accounting firms, the only buyers I see would be the "financial community" who would want the customer base for cross selling whole life, annuities, and other high commission products. …

While I would certainly agree that there would be plenty of cross selling going on (which I don’t like either), I want to stress that the problem is independence – not profitability. There are plenty of commercial concerns that would love to "own" a captive CPA firm. We all know (or should know) that control is easily possible with a lot less than 49% ownership. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

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Category: Financial Accounting
Tags: Financial Accounting

Accounting Talk » Accounting » Assets held less than 1 year

Assets held less than 1 year

Question:

Response:

assets you bought that have a useful life 1 year but you sold or otherwise disposed? if so you depreciate according to your normal book method and you have a gain or loss on the dispostion. am i missing something? — Sarah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know the GAAP rules for assets held less than 1 year? Except for taxation purposes is there any principle restricting the accounting of depreciation for assets held less than 1 fiscal year? Brian

Response:

Does anyone know the GAAP rules for assets held less than 1 year? Except for taxation purposes is there any principle restricting the accounting of depreciation for assets held less than 1 fiscal year? What are you talking about? Supplies? Inventory? There are not many "assets" that last less than a year where it’s worth depreciating them. Just take an expense when purchased. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – assets you bought that have a useful life 1 year but you sold or otherwise disposed? if so you depreciate according to your normal book method and you have a gain or loss on the dispostion. am i missing something? — Sarah Does anyone know the GAAP rules for assets held less than 1 year? Except for taxation purposes is there any principle restricting the accounting of depreciation for assets held less than 1 fiscal year? Brian

I thought the rule was no depreciation expense, just gain or loss in that situation. Mark L. Szczybor Baltimore, MD

Response:

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Category: Accounting
Tags: Accounting

Accounting Talk » Office Accounting » Racism

Racism

Question:

– Greetings, It figures that the repubs would be the ones to throw the race card here. I mean the following is all true of the repubs… 1. the repubs closed down the black caucus in congress saying that it was a waste of money… and time… 2. the repubs killed affirmative action saying that it was unfair to whites 3. the repubs passed legislation that was designed to eliminate health benefits for all legal and illegal aliens, until the supreme court made them restore the benefits. 4. the repubs have told lies about blacks and hispanics. 5. every single klan, nazi and white supremicest is the same faith as the religious right… 6. the repubs are religious right members. 7. it was the religious right who killed mathew sheperd 8. it was the religious right who bombed the gay club in South beach florida 9. it was the religious right who bombed the abortion clinics. 10. it is the religious right who stand by abortion clinics and yell about their faith and their bible… and how the women are violating god’s law, as the religious right defines god’s law, thereby ignoring the religious freedom of the women, by yelling their religious views at these women, and subjecting them to judgement under their religious views, when such judgement, according to the first amendment, is against the law. Yes, the repubs are the ones who throw a race issue… and they do it to confuse and to lie… and to cheat… and to try and throw the race… Press Release: Race taints California Senate race By JOHN HOWARD Associated Press Writer SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) Republican Senate candidate Matt Fong has accused Democratic incumbent Barbara Boxer of trying to stir up ethnic animosity in one of the closest races in the country. Fong, a Chinese-American and the state treasurer, is angry about a TV ad that slams his position on lawsuits against health maintenance organizations. He says there should be caps on lawsuit judgments. The spot, paid for by the California Democrat Party, juxtaposes the words "Matt Fong" and "foreign diplomats" and claims Fong "wants laws that mean just about the only people in America who can’t be sued are foreign diplomats and HMOs." Fong also is upset about a leaked report by House Democrats raising questions about $100,000 in campaign donations he received from an Indonesian businessman. The ad began airing last week and news of the House report was first published Saturday in the San Jose Mercury News. Fong believes both were engineered by the Boxer campaign to hurt him as the campaign goes down to the wire. With polls showing the race a dead heat, California’s roughly 700,000 Asian-American voters could decide the election, which is considered a key GOP race in terms of giving Republicans a filibuster-proof 60 in the Senate. "She’s raising references about race and ethnicity that are very inappropriate. It’s very negative. It’s very shameful and despicable to try and distort my position," Fong said Wednesday. Boxer, whose mother was a first-generation Jewish immigrant, flatly rejected Fong’s allegations of racism and defended the ad, noting that the chairman of the state Democratic Party is Art Torres, who is Hispanic. "For Art Torres, who is a leader on civil rights, to put out any ad that hurt anybody is completely ludicrous. That HMO ad is factual," Boxer said. Privately, Democrats suggest Fong may be raising the issue himself in an attempt to galvanize Asian-Americans to vote on Nov. 3. Fong’s campaign has made a major effort to woo Asian-American voters, running TV ads in Mandarin and Cantonese. The unreleased House report, written by minority Democrats, cites discrepancies in Fong’s testimony to House and Senate investigators looking into international campaign contributions. In 1995, Fong received $100,000 in donations from businessman Ted Sioeng, who is barred by law from contributing to U.S. political campaigns because he is not a U.S. citizen or legal permanent resident. Fong returned the money in 1997 after reports linking Sioeng to the Chinese government. Fong said his testimony was consistent and blamed Democrats for leaking the report days before the election. Boxer denied any involvement. "The Republicans released their part of the report, they are the ones who set the deadlines, and then the Democrats had to release the minority side," she said. For continuous breaking news, see AP Newstream Associated Press news material shall not be published, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed directly or indirectly in any medium. —- – End of line – mail and spam is blocked) LIBERALS UNITE! BOYCOTT the following religious right republican controlled companies: American Express Corp (Credit) Grand Union Company Inc. (Supermarket) JC Penney Co. Inc. (Department store mail order sales) Leonards of Great Neck Inc. (catering, restaurant) Loews New York Hotel Inc. Lord & Taylor (Department Store) Marriott International Inc. (Hotel) Pepsi-Cola Company Inc. (Soft Drinks) Genovese Corp. (Pharmacy) Hilton Hotel Corp. RJ Reynolds Tobacco Co. Inc. / Nabisco Foods Inc. Wendy’s (Dave Thomas is good friends with Pat Robertson of the 700 Club) Dominos Pizza Freedom Now! Not for some, for everyone! Be safe … Be free! Nicole Dawn Maschke Available on MIRC Moderator of The (ultra-liberal/left wing); United_Liberals Mailing List (the listserver is on egroups.com) Religion is a *human* created ethnocentric anthropological device that humans use to politically and religiously oppress other humans. Spirituality is a *universally* created non ethnocentric anthropological device that humans use to gain understanding and mastery of themselves, and their lives. Human created religious ethnocentric anthropological devices are not valid expressions of universally created non ethnocentric anthropological human spirituality; Because *religions* are ethnocentrically created by *humans* … not a supreme being… Because "religion", and the principles that go along with it, are human linguistic, and theological, ethnocentric inventions … as all of our language is created… In OUR image…. mail and spam is blocked)

Response:

– Greetings, The repubs, who hate china… will use this as an excuse to up their hatred for that nation. See, racism is all the rage with the religious right and the repubs. They use it all the time. Who was the group who dismantled the black caucus saying that it was a waste of time… repubs. Who was the group that first tried to eliminate all the health benefits to legal and illegal aliens… and then was forced to reinstate those benefits by the supreme court… repubs… Very racist… that’s the repub way… Look what happened to mathew sheperd because he got in their way… Press Release: Chinese reject blame for beetles By Peter Kendall Tribune Environment Writer October 22, 1998 Chinese agriculture officials who came to Chicago to survey the destructive eating habits of the Asian longhorned beetle pressed Wednesday for an easing of new restrictions on the wooden crates and pallets that carry imports — and the beetles — into this country. Saying that there was no evidence the tree-killing beetles discovered around Chicago this summer originated in China, they called the U.S. Department of Agriculture

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Category: Office Accounting
Tags: Office Accounting

Accounting Talk » Office Accounting » Confused about Type 2

Confused about Type 2

Question:

From what I have read, either can be true. My doctor told me that I have plenty of insulin, but it cannot reach the cells – just what you read. Exercise helps reduce the resistance to insulin, as does losing weight, if the person is overweight. But, some adult onset type II may have other causes, such as poor production of insulin by the pancreas. Nora

Response:

I was on a web site http://envirolink.org/arrs/essays/diabetes.html#info and it said the following about type II diabetes. "When diabetes begins in adulthood (non-insulin-dependent diabetes), it is not due to an inadequate supply of insulin. There is plenty of insulin in the blood stream, but the cells do not respond readily to it. Sugar cannot easily get into the cells, and it backs up in the blood stream. This form is also called Type II or adult-onset diabetes. In the short run, diabetics may experience episodes of labored breathing, vomiting, and dehydration. In the long run, diabetics are at risk for heart disease, kidney problems, disorders of vision, and other difficulties." I thought type II was when the pancreas had reduced insulin output which is not what is stated above. Which one is correct? Thanks, George

Response:

There are more than 15 genetic "associations" for type II alone. An article that states with certainty that all of us type II’s are really insulin resistant should be held in question. I would check the date of publication on that piece. One of the bad things about the net is that folks sometimes convert any and all documents to html and post them, regardless of how current they are, or how well researched. Type II has a number of causes, and it is distinct from insulin resistance. Often, as the pancreas degrades, type IIs eventually need insulin. If we were all just insulin resistant, we wouldn’t need to add insulin, we’d need meds to help us use our insulin. Hope that helps. Bill

Response:

I thought type II was when the pancreas had reduced insulin output which is not what is stated above. IF the pancreatic insulin output is reduced.. .That is type 1 (unless) If the pancreas is producing insulin in the normal, or better, levels and it’s just not working well That’s type II Now how confusion starts…. Some people say that after years of overproduction of insulin to over come the TYPE II’s body’s insulin resistance they beta cells which product the insulin tend to "Burn out" This is often cited as why orals don’t seem to work well for very long terms (read that for just a few years) Now, in the case of drug turbo-charging the beta cells, I won’t argue with them. It might be that the beta cells do "Burn out" or "Tire out" (As others term it) however in my case C-Peptide (Which tells how well the beta cells are doing) is ABOVE the normal range (I’m producing more insulin that a non-diabetic of my size and shape would) Thus there is no burn out in ME Your millage may vary But TYPE 1 = Not enough insulin Type 2 = Plenty of insulin… Just not working properly Now, There are currently 5 treatments for type 2, NO CURES HOWEVER There are 2 treatments for type 1, One can be a cure Type 1: A: Insulin, B: Pancreas transplant (May cure the patient) The reason that B is not common is the risk of transplant surgery and the need to obtain the donor organs. Type 2 has five treatments…. A: Diet and exercise…. Sometimes it really works B: Oral 1: These drugs "Supercharge" the beta cells producing more insulin C: Oral 2: These drugs tend to slow the absorption of glucose so that you do not get the big spikes and a slower, but constant, production of insulin can do the job D: Oral 3: ReZulin, This drug actually attacks the resistance (Good idea) E: Brute force… Just add more insulin till there is enough in there to work Best treatment…. Unless A works all by itself, Then the best treatment will be a combination of two or more of the above treatments. One should note that a pancreas transplant will not work for a type II as their pancreas is functional already. However there is also a type III Now what is a type Three? Why that’s a type 1 who is also type two, or a type two who’s also a type 1 (1+2=3) Since they have different causes, one does not preclude the other Oh yes… There are a number of "late onset" "instant" type 1 diabetics these days.. .I’ll give some examples 1: Gunshot wound to the pancreas… 2: Chemical attack on the pancreas… 3: Pancreatic cancer, surgical removal of the pancreas In the case of 2, My CDE told of one patient who’d been put on a drug that attacked her beta cells… Thus turning her into a type one rather quickly You will note that except for example 3, (Which normally happens only to the older set) none of these are age dependent causes. "Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business" Attention Spammers: Fee for returning your SPAM to your postmaster $250.00 Motto from Fredrics of Hollywood……"We Fix Flats!" Net-Tamer V 1.10 - Registered

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was on a web site http://envirolink.org/arrs/essays/diabetes.html#info and it said the following about type II diabetes. "When diabetes begins in adulthood (non-insulin-dependent diabetes), it is not due to an inadequate supply of insulin. There is plenty of insulin in the blood stream, but the cells do not respond readily to it. Sugar cannot easily get into the cells, and it backs up in the blood stream. This form is also called Type II or adult-onset diabetes. In the short run, diabetics may experience episodes of labored breathing, vomiting, and dehydration. In the long run, diabetics are at risk for heart disease, kidney problems, disorders of vision, and other difficulties." I thought type II was when the pancreas had reduced insulin output which is not what is stated above. Which one is correct? Thanks, George

Both are correct. My pancreas makes plenty of insulin, but my cells have a wee tad problem trying to figure out what to do with it. I have a friend that has a reduced insulin output, yet he is catagorized type II like me by his doctor. I guess that they must draw the line at the point if the pancreas makes any insulin or no insulin when they classify I and II as far as can see things. Fred KE8TQ Lorraine KC8HWV Sunny Dayton, Ohio Look for us on Amateur Radio

Response:

There are more than 15 genetic "associations" for type II alone. An article that states with certainty that all of us type II’s are really insulin resistant should be held in question.

There are other types, and one can be both type I and type II. Type II has a number of causes, and it is distinct from insulin resistance. Often, as the pancreas degrades, type IIs eventually need insulin. If we were all just insulin resistant, we wouldn’t need to add insulin, we’d need meds to help us use our insulin.

The mechanism of insulin resistance is poorly known, as are the chemicals involved. The sulfonureas do not halp use insulin, but help the pancreas to produce more. The only drugs I have seen mentioned which attack insulin resistance are metformin (glucophage) and the new rezulin. There has been a posting on this group about rexinoids, but these are still being tested. To put it bluntly, we do not have medications which do a clearly adequate job to help us use our insulin. — This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399

Response:

Type II has a number of causes, and it is distinct from insulin resistance. Often, as the pancreas degrades, type IIs eventually need insulin. If we were all just insulin resistant, we wouldn’t need to add insulin, we’d need meds to help us use our insulin. Hope that helps. Bill

Just a comment. Insulin resistent has been hard historically to fight. Rezulin is the first agent to directly attack this area although Glucophage may have some effect in this area. There are a number of additional such drugs in the pipeline. The historical tendency has been to overwhelm the resistence, both by driving the beta cells to produce insulin, and by administering insulin often in quite high doses. Art Schor

Response:

The only drugs I have seen mentioned which attack insulin resistance are metformin (glucophage) and the new rezulin. There has been a posting on this group about rexinoids, but these are still being tested. You are half right, Metformin (gulcophage) is one of the other types of drugs, ReZulin is the only one that attackes the insulin resistance. (Soruce, Assorted drug PDR sheets and a a recent thread here) There is one drug that attempts to regulate the absorpation of glucose by the body… I keep getting it confused with another drug but Glucophage MAY be the right one… I AM NOT SURE however.

Response:

There is a drug put out by the Bayer company called Glucobay (or at least that was the name in Britain). This apparently worked on the absorption through the gut. I can’t remember the generic/class of the drug, however. I *might* still have info in a packing box around here. [fx: looks around herself in her loft/office: lots and lots of boxes yet unpacked, mostly books and various literature related to computing.] They came out with this product in Britain *just* after I went back on insulin, about 1993(?) I’d gone through diet alone (no success, immediate climbing of Bg’s), metformin (no success, unless you want to discuss my record speeds in the Toilet Dash at which I became quite proficient after a single dose – quit that med after 3 doses), and steadily increasing doses of gliclizide (again, no success, finally reaching maximum dosage), before put back onto insulin at twice the level I’d been on prior to the consultant deciding I should go off it. I might have given Glucobay a try, had it been available. (I used to work for Bayer UK and had access to this kind of information from the diabetic products department, who were very, very nice people, IMHO. I was just a lowly Sr. Analyst Programmer, supporting their accounting s/w.) Peg — I’m an American. I used to live in England. Now I’m back! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is one drug that attempts to regulate the absorpation of glucose by the body… I keep getting it confused with another drug but Glucophage MAY be the right one… I AM NOT SURE however.

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Accounting Talk » Office Accounting » Are vitamins causing diabetic symptoms?

Are vitamins causing diabetic symptoms?

Question:

Would symtoms of unquenchable thirst, excessive urination (and recently ravenous hunger, too) warrant a visit to the ER? Should I call my HMO and demand that someone see me immediately? I mean I don’t feel sick or anything… just really thirsty and hungry.

If this is caused by vitamin toxicity (which I strongly suspect), or from diabetes, I would definitely demand to be seen before next Thursday!

Response:

Collette, What form of vitamin A are you taking? At one time I was prescribed a form of A for heart problems that gave some of the same symptoms you describe. Also, if you are taking separate vitamin tablets, try eliminating one or another at a time to see what happens. I am diabetic and I get some reactions similar to what you describe from "energising" formulas as well. ti Tom Ivers Equine Racing Systems, Inc. Washougal, WA (360) 837-3700

Response:

Remember that if the vitamins contain aspartame you could have 92 documented symptoms (according to the FDA, August 1995). So if your problems started when you started vitamins check the labels. We are trying to do something about these vitamin companies using aspartame. Please email me for further information on aspartame if you would like. One of the worst culprits is Twin Labs. We’ve given them 3 weeks to take the aspartame out of the 30 products they admit to, or we will declare a national boycott. Regards Betty Operation Mission Possible Betty Martini UUCP: …!emory!pd.org!betty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ] ]Lately I’ve had this persistent, absolutely unquenchable thirst. ]Blood sugar problems exist in my family so I’ve got an appointment ]to have that possibility checked out, but I’ve recently started ]taking a multivitamin supplement, and I’m wondering if that might ]have something to do with it. Thank you to everyone who responded (I’m sorry I didn’t respond to each of you individually). The general consensus is that it’s nigh unto impossible that the vitamins are responsible for my symptoms. I figured as much, but the onset of the symptoms coincided so perfectly with my beginning the supplements that I thought it worth asking. I know that there are people out there who are more knowledgable than I about such things. For those who have expressed concern, I do have an appointment with my HMO physician next Thursday, and I’ve called the ADA in Chicago to ask for a list of hospitals that do free diabetes screening (in case my HMO balks). But, I’ve gotten the sense from some of you that maybe there should be more urgency to this. Would symtoms of unquenchable thirst, excessive urination (and recently ravenous hunger, too) warrant a visit to the ER? Should I call my HMO and demand that someone see me immediately? I mean I don’t feel sick or anything… just really thirsty and hungry. colette )._.,–….,’“. `._.-(,_..’–(,_..’`-.;.’

Response:

I read through your list of vitamin supplements. I’d stop taking them immediately whether or not they are they culprit of your symptoms. The formula is extremely unbalanced! D, which is an insoluble vitamin, DOES have toxicity symptoms such as appetite loss, constipation, DRY MOUTH, headaches, INCREASED THIRST, nausea, and others. This is taken from "Vitamins, minerals and suplements" by Dr. H. Winter Griffith. The Vitamin B-12 in large doses (which you are certainly taking) WILL CAUSE dry mouth. Without going through your entire list of vitamins, I can say with great assurance that it is highly possible that these vitamins are at least part of your problem. You should stop them immediately!!!!

Response:

I would be VERY assertive in calling and explaining that you have a serious medical emergency, and that if they can’t get you in within about 24 hours, you will be seeing a specialist and sending them the bill. This may be an expensive threat to follow through on, but you are dealing with a very serious disease–and based on your syptoms, I’d be willing to bet that you have a fairly serious blood sugar problem. I didn’t start getting symptoms like you describe until my FASTING BG’s were around 275, and I suspect postprandials were close to 500…everyone is different, but generally mild cases are asymptomatic, and by the time you develop overt signs, the disease is fairly advanced. INSIST that your HMO take good care of you; be informed, demanding, and assertive. At the same time, try to find a practitioner/nurse/dietician team who will go to bat for you. It’s difficult to do battle with an HMO and become friends with your care team, but don’t confuse the two. Good luck, and be prepared to take control fo your own treatment. Diana Dills Type II

Response:

] ]Lately I’ve had this persistent, absolutely unquenchable thirst. ]Blood sugar problems exist in my family so I’ve got an appointment ]to have that possibility checked out, but I’ve recently started ]taking a multivitamin supplement, and I’m wondering if that might ]have something to do with it. Thank you to everyone who responded (I’m sorry I didn’t respond to each of you individually). The general consensus is that it’s nigh unto impossible that the vitamins are responsible for my symptoms. I figured as much, but the onset of the symptoms coincided so perfectly with my beginning the supplements that I thought it worth asking. I know that there are people out there who are more knowledgable than I about such things. For those who have expressed concern, I do have an appointment with my HMO physician next Thursday, and I’ve called the ADA in Chicago to ask for a list of hospitals that do free diabetes screening (in case my HMO balks). But, I’ve gotten the sense from some of you that maybe there should be more urgency to this. Would symtoms of unquenchable thirst, excessive urination (and recently ravenous hunger, too) warrant a visit to the ER? Should I call my HMO and demand that someone see me immediately? I mean I don’t feel sick or anything… just really thirsty and hungry. colette )._.,–….,’“. `._.-(,_..’–(,_..’`-.;.’

Response:

You don’t say when your Dr. appt. is. You are doing the right thing by planning to have your blood glucose tested. See if they will also do a urine test and hemoglobin test. Your vitamins have a high amount of B12 compared to the amount of B6. All the B vitamins are interrelated in that they are used by the body in proportional amounts. Why not test your theory that the vitamins might be causing your thirst problem by stopping them for a few days? (The B vitamin interrelationship is more likely to make you tired than thirsty, by the way.) Good luck!

Response:

I started taking a multiple B Stress tab in the evenings and my blood sugar went way out of wack. I ended up with 4 shots of R and blood testing every few hours and did not regain control for almost a week, when I went off the vitamins. I was getting very high bg readings with low bg feelings (like about to start a reaction). You might just be dehyrdated and the vitamins are making that more apparent. I tend to drink more when I am on different vitamins and always thought that maybe helped break them down in my body. I have always drank a lot of water because have though it would be good for kidneys having been a diabetic for 26+ years. Good luck :

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately I’ve had this persistent, absolutely unquenchable thirst. Blood sugar problems exist in my family so I’ve got an appointment to have that possibility checked out, but I’ve recently started taking a multivitamin supplement, and I’m wondering if that might have something to do with it. Are there vitamins/minerals which can cause excessive thirst/ excessive urination in certain amounts? Everywhere I’ve looked I’ve been able to find out which vitamins have potential toxicity, but they never say *how* the toxicity manifests. FYI, the supplements are giving me the following: A 133% RDA C 220% D 142% E 67% K * (no RDA and I can’t recall the IU #) Thiamin 667% Riboflavin 667% Niacin 250% B6 700% Folate 67% B12 167% Biotin 7% Pantothenic Acid 120% Calcium 82% Iron 67% Phosphorus 62% Iodine 67% Magnesium 80% Zinc 67% Selenium * (no RDA and I can’t recall the IU#) Copper 100% Manganese * (no RDA and I can’t recall the IU#) (All in all, not excessive compared to other standard multivitamins I’ve seen and used.) One person has mentioned that he thought vitamin A had a drying effect on some tissues. Any vitamin gurus out there? colette )._.,–….,’“. `._.-(,_..’–(,_..’`-.;.’

I am no expert. But I know one of the B vitamins can raise blood sugars in people prone to diabetes. If you are excessively thirsty, or have an "almost painful" thirst, see a doctor soon. You can also get urine test strips to test blood sugar at a pharmacy. They cost about $7 – $12. They will tell you if you have diabetes or not — if you have any sugar in your urine, see the doctor soon — and keep away from sugar. If you do have diabetes, which can cause the thirst, you may be in danger. If you start vomiting or get "flulike"symptoms, go to the emergency room. Those are some starting signs of hyperglycemia, which can induce coma and death. I know, I have been there.

Response:

Lately I’ve had this persistent, absolutely unquenchable thirst. Blood sugar problems exist in my family so I’ve got an appointment to have that possibility checked out, but I’ve recently started taking a multivitamin supplement, and I’m wondering if that might have something to do with it. Are there vitamins/minerals which can cause excessive thirst/ excessive urination in certain amounts? Everywhere I’ve looked I’ve been able to find out which vitamins have potential toxicity, but they never say *how* the toxicity manifests. FYI, the supplements are giving me the following: A 133% RDA C 220% D 142% E 67% K * (no RDA and I can’t recall the IU #) Thiamin 667% Riboflavin 667% Niacin 250% B6 700% Folate 67% B12 167% Biotin 7% Pantothenic Acid 120% Calcium 82% Iron 67% Phosphorus 62% Iodine 67% Magnesium 80% Zinc 67% Selenium * (no RDA and I can’t recall the IU#) Copper 100% Manganese * (no RDA and I can’t recall the IU#) (All in all, not excessive compared to other standard multivitamins I’ve seen and used.) One person has mentioned that he thought vitamin A had a drying effect on some tissues. Any vitamin gurus out there? colette )._.,–….,’“. `._.-(,_..’–(,_..’`-.;.’

Response:

In article and Stevia has been approved which is ideal for diabetics because it is food and not an additive, and helps in the metabolism of sugar.

Betty, Betty, Betty… sigh… we’ve asked you to prove this claim regarding Stevia, and you have not, nor will you ever, because it is complete b.s. Also, be sure to read the story of Joyce Wilson who went blind and died on NutraSweet that is also on the auto-responder.

This folks, is called LIBEL, a written statement that damages someone’s reputation because it is untrue. In this case, there is no proof that Joyce Wilson "died on Nutrasweet." I am forwarding this claim to the makers of Nutrasweet, perhaps they will be interested in shutting Martini up. What amazes me is the number of people that actually believe the stuff she posts. P.T. Barnum was a greater visionary than I had ever imagined. Steve

Response:

Dear Katie: I don’t know whether you got the information you wanted because we had a problem when we were so swamped with hundreds of requests. But I wanted to let you know that now we have everything you want on an auto-responder including a safe-sweetener list, and Stevia has been approved which is ideal for diabetics because it is food and not an additive, and helps in the metabolism of sugar. It’s on the auto-responder too. However, your health food store will have many alternatives. So sorry for being so long in answering. I do answer all email but at one time I had hundreds of requests at one time, and had a problem. Also, be sure to read the story of Joyce Wilson who went blind and died on NutraSweet that is also on the auto-responder. I’ve never heard of estesa? Is this spelled right? I would be interested. A national boycott was filed by Return to Eden. They admitted to about 30 products or more. The information they sent was absolutely incorrect. We sent it back quoted from official sources and give them unrefutable evidence that aspartame is a poison. They disregarded it. I asked them if SEnator Orrin Hatch had anything to do with Twin Labs and they wouldn’t respond. Senator Orrin Hatch is the one that stopped the bill that would have put a warning on aspartame, and required "independent" testing by the National Institute of Health on the problems being observed in the population. Hatch has strong loyalty to Monsanto. You will find the bill on the auto-responder. To make sure you don’t have problems getting a directory I’ll send it to you and our warning flyer, and a post about diabetes. You have to type exactly in the subject line like this to get the directory: Also be sure to read the Toxic Times article on the auto-responder written about the independent testing of aspartame that many may not know about. The references and citations to this article are also on the respnder and number about 57. All independent double-blind controlled studies showed aspartame to be a poison with disastrous results. If I haven’t answered all your questions be sure to let me know. Regards, Betty Betty Martini 1. Take the 60-day No-Aspartame test Mission Possible and send us your case history. PO Box 28098 2. Tell your doctor and your friends. Atlanta GA 30358 3. Return Aspar-Poisoned foods to the store. USA (Nutrasweet(tm), Equal(tm), Spoonful(tm), etc) We are dedicated to the proposition that we will not be satisfied until death and disability are no longer considered an acceptable cost of business. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : We are still checking on others as people are reporting getting sick on : Twin Labs products. Also, keep in mind that aspartame (marketed as : NutraSweet/Equal/Spoonful, etc.) IS NOT A DIET PRODUCT!!! In the : Congressional Record of August, 1985 it says: I know your mad a twin labs, and you have a right to be, but dont you think its pretty funny that DIET COKE and DIET PEPSI use ASPARTAME in : "Aspartame has been demonstrated to inhibit the carbohydrate induced : synthesis of the neurotransmitter serotonin. (Wurtman affidavit). : Serotonin blunts the sensation of craving carbohydrates and thus is part : of the body’s feedback system that helps limit consumption to appropriate : levels. Its inhibition by aspartame could lead to the anomalous result : of a diet product causing increased consumption of carbohydrates." : Translation: Use aspartame and get fat! oh man..this is good.. fucking jerks sit there and put all this asperatin in there Low cal products, so we will eat more of them.. This is it.. no MOre Asprashit for me! : the General Accounting Office reported on its two-year investigation of : aspartame stating more than half the scientists surveyed were concerned : about the neurological reactions and other potential adverse effects of : aspartame in children. 40% called for further research : 32% sought new warnings : 15% suggested a TOTAL BAN! : Our last letter to Twin Labs said: "It boils down to this! Does Twin : Labs have the integrity and respectability as well as concern for the : consumer public to withdraw this poison? Or does Twin Labs stand loyally : by Monsanto and care less about the safety of its products." : They answered me 10/25/95 declaring they will continue to use aspartame. : They were sent voluminous data. They have the 95 FDA report of 92 : documented symptoms from coma to death and the 10,000 complaints listed : in the April complaint report. They even have the report by the late FDA : toxicologist, Dr. Adrian Gross, who told Congress aspartame violated the : Delaney Amendment because it causes brain tumors. And on and on and on, : but Twin Labs ignored everything! Listen.. I dont really thinkits twin labs total problem, I think the FDA must answer for this… THe FDA says that this shit is ok to USe.. and now, even for baked goods!.. I dont understand Why the FDA is Not looking into this.. must be because of fucking money! ugh! : Also Stevia has been approved by the FDA as a dietary supplement. It is : not only sweet but assists in the metabolism of sugar and fights bacteria – : ideal for diabetics. As more and more physicians find out that aspartame : contains methanol, a human specific poison, that converts to formaldehyde : and formic acid (even in the retina of the eye) they are outraged. You : can imagine how hazardous wood alcohol is to the diabetic. : We have a resource list on Stevia for those who want it, and aspartame : information is available on request. Send me the info! also I think the estesa company uses aspartame in there products.. these products are for diabetics, and can be found in most large super markets. You might want to look into them, maybe ask them to switch or check out stevia

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