Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Cost of Goods Sold = COGS When my customers buy something from me there is a sale. For Accrual Based Accounting as per GAAP please help answer the following: Is the Purchase Order received issue date the sale/revenue date? No. Under accrual basis, there is no sale until title to the goods passes to the customer according to the FOB terms. Is the Invoice Date (Day of shipment or services rendered) the sale/revenue date? No. See above. Is the date that the cash is paid to vendor the sale/revenue date? No, not under accrual basis. versus when I buy something from a vendor as below: Is the date I issue a PO and fax it to my client the date of COGS date ? Is the date I receive an invoice / proforma invoice the date of COGS date ? Is the date I pay the bill by cash or cheque the date of COGS date ? Help me. Joe Bruno Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war) Ancient Roman Motto Visit my web page for pictures, music, and accounting services http://www.msnusers.com/Joepictures2008/shoebox.msnw

This is very useful! Thanks!

Response:

Hi, Cost of Goods Sold = COGS When my customers buy something from me there is a sale. For Accrual Based Accounting as per GAAP please help answer the following: Is the Purchase Order received issue date the sale/revenue date?

No. Under accrual basis, there is no sale until title to the goods passes to the customer according to the FOB terms. Is the Invoice Date (Day of shipment or services rendered) the sale/revenue date?

No. See above. Is the date that the cash is paid to vendor the sale/revenue date?

No, not under accrual basis. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -versus when I buy something from a vendor as below: Is the date I issue a PO and fax it to my client the date of COGS date ? Is the date I receive an invoice / proforma invoice the date of COGS date ? Is the date I pay the bill by cash or cheque the date of COGS date ? Help me.

Joe Bruno Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war) Ancient Roman Motto Visit my web page for pictures, music, and accounting services http://www.msnusers.com/Joepictures2008/shoebox.msnw

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Cost of Goods Sold = COGS When my customers buy something from me there is a sale. For Accrual Based Accounting as per GAAP please help answer the following: Is the Purchase Order received issue date the sale/revenue date? Is the Invoice Date (Day of shipment or services rendered) the sale/revenue date? Is the date that the cash is paid to vendor the sale/revenue date? versus when I buy something from a vendor as below: Is the date I issue a PO and fax it to my client the date of COGS date ? Is the date I receive an invoice / proforma invoice the date of COGS date ? Is the date I pay the bill by cash or cheque the date of COGS date ? Help me.

All of this you are talking about may depend on when title to the goods passes to the purchaser.  For that, you need to determine were the goods shipped FOB shipping point or FOB destination?  If FOB shipping point, title passes when the goods are loaded on a carrier to be delivered to the purchaser.  If FOB destination, title passes when the goods arrives at the site of the purchaser. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

First, it is "accrual". Second, if using accrual based accounting, you record your sale the date the goods or services are rendered or delivered, NOT the date of the Purchase Order, or the date you receive the Purchase Order and, it is NOT the date you receive payment. Third, you record your expense on the date YOU receive the goods or the services are rendered. You do NOT record the expense on the date of your Purchase Order, or the date you pay for the goods or services. Stephanie

In accounting, we match revenues with expenses. When I advise my clients and/or develop an information management "accountability" system, I take this approach: Merchandise purchases go into Inventory and stay there until the merchandise is sold. Upon the sale of merchandise, the sale is recorded as revenue and the applicable cost is removed from inventory and recorded as cost of goods sold (in a good system this happens simultaneously and probable using the Invoice Number as a common reference number). Wayne raised a valid point about the FOB concept; however, in a practically nobody defers the sale until the expected arrival date (in a case where the merchandise sold is shipped FOB destination). Rather, the question of "passing title" usually comes into play only when there is a freight damage/loss. Similarly when the Sale is based on "services rendered", especially when the services span more than the current month, the time spent is captured at cost as "Work In Progress Inventory" and moved to Cost of Sales equivalent when the services are invoiced.Of course, there are variations possible in particular situations e.g. some revenues are subject to progress billing. However, the bottom line is this: Expenses are items that have been consumed in the process of making sales or attempting to make sales. Inventory, whether merchandise (including overhead allocation, etc. in a manufacturing environment) or human resources that have the potential for sale or are are part of a sale-in-progress, is a current asset until sold or written off for whatever reason e.g. spoilage, shrinkage, etc. Wolfgang Rochow, CGA www.gestalt.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Cost of Goods Sold = COGS When my customers buy something from me there is a sale. For Accrual Based Accounting as per GAAP please help answer the following: Is the Purchase Order received issue date the sale/revenue date? Is the Invoice Date (Day of shipment or services rendered) the sale/revenue date? Is the date that the cash is paid to vendor the sale/revenue date? versus when I buy something from a vendor as below: Is the date I issue a PO and fax it to my client the date of COGS date ? Is the date I receive an invoice / proforma invoice the date of COGS date ? Is the date I pay the bill by cash or cheque the date of COGS date ? Help me.

Response:

First, it is "accrual". Second, if using accrual based accounting, you record your sale the date the goods or services are rendered or delivered, NOT the date of the Purchase Order, or the date you receive the Purchase Order and, it is NOT the date you receive payment. Third, you record your expense on the date YOU receive the goods or the services are rendered. You do NOT record the expense on the date of your Purchase Order, or the date you pay for the goods or services. Stephanie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Cost of Goods Sold = COGS When my customers buy something from me there is a sale. For Accrual Based Accounting as per GAAP please help answer the following: Is the Purchase Order received issue date the sale/revenue date? Is the Invoice Date (Day of shipment or services rendered) the sale/revenue date? Is the date that the cash is paid to vendor the sale/revenue date? versus when I buy something from a vendor as below: Is the date I issue a PO and fax it to my client the date of COGS date ? Is the date I receive an invoice / proforma invoice the date of COGS date ? Is the date I pay the bill by cash or cheque the date of COGS date ? Help me.

Response:

Hi, Cost of Goods Sold = COGS When my customers buy something from me there is a sale. For Accrual Based Accounting as per GAAP please help answer the following: Is the Purchase Order received issue date the sale/revenue date? Is the Invoice Date (Day of shipment or services rendered) the sale/revenue date? Is the date that the cash is paid to vendor the sale/revenue date? versus when I buy something from a vendor as below: Is the date I issue a PO and fax it to my client the date of COGS date ? Is the date I receive an invoice / proforma invoice the date of COGS date ? Is the date I pay the bill by cash or cheque the date of COGS date ? Help me.

Response:

Question:

BVR – Bureau of Vocational Rehabilitation KG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week was not auspicious.  I got a letter from SS turning down my first appeal.  I’m waiting to hear back from the lawyer who handled the appeal They say inspite of panic attacks and an inability to return to my former work I can do simple repetitive work and follow instructions.  If I hate leaving the house, don’t do stress well and throw up when I get home, how am I suppose to work?  I can go out with someone else and have no problems, but I hate going out alone. BVR said I hadn’t been on contact with them and wanted to close my case. I was told to wait for them to contact me.  Right now, I’m appealing keeping my case open. KG Great, this is what I have to look forward to? I’m sorry to hear that your getting the run-a-round on this. My pdoc suggested to me last week that I get a lawyer too. So now that I’ve moved it’s all about concentrating on getting this SSDI crap done…. BTW – what is BVR? Hilaire This is not what you have to look forward too.  With few exceptions, most everybody gets turned down the first time for SSDI.  It may not be easy either. I was *told* to wait for BVR to call.  BVR expected me to call them.  So they decided to close my case. KG

Response:

Kathy.  I’ll give you some hints for working with bureaucracies. First, never expect them to call you.  If you don’t get results within a reasonable time frame (that depends upon the organization) give THEM a call. You need to make a total pest out of yourself to get anything done. Second, always write down the time, day, and person to whom you spoke when you make a phone call.  It’s amazing how quickly we can forget exactly when it was that we called regarding a problem. Third, if you want it done quickly, make a pest of yourself, ask the person for their name, ask to speak to supervisors if necessary. Fourth, make a pest of yourself.  Don’t expect any bureaucracy to ever call you back.  Especially if it involves you RECEIVING money.  (If you owe money they will be calling you every day including holidays.) FIFTH. Make a pest of yourself.  Document everything.  You have to follow up on things.  They are not concerned about your bills or problems. c I know I repeated myself a lot but having dealt with a lot of bureaucracies in my life I have learned to be perisitant.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week was not auspicious.  I got a letter from SS turning down my first appeal.  I’m waiting to hear back from the lawyer who handled the appeal They say inspite of panic attacks and an inability to return to my former work I can do simple repetitive work and follow instructions.  If I hate leaving the house, don’t do stress well and throw up when I get home, how am I suppose to work?  I can go out with someone else and have no problems, but I hate going out alone. BVR said I hadn’t been on contact with them and wanted to close my case. I was told to wait for them to contact me.  Right now, I’m appealing keeping my case open. KG Great, this is what I have to look forward to? I’m sorry to hear that your getting the run-a-round on this. My pdoc suggested to me last week that I get a lawyer too. So now that I’ve moved it’s all about concentrating on getting this SSDI crap done…. BTW – what is BVR? Hilaire This is not what you have to look forward too.  With few exceptions, most everybody gets turned down the first time for SSDI.  It may not be easy either. I was *told* to wait for BVR to call.  BVR expected me to call them.  So they decided to close my case. KG

Response:

Hi Kathy- Just wanted to say "good luck"!!  From what I know of you, your third apeak (hearing) should get you your SSDI.  Hang in there! Hugs, Nancy etched permanently into the ether: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, you have a lot of shit going on.  BTDT.  Is your pdoc helping you to file?  Getting the proper diagnositic label from a pdoc is essential.  If you’ve had multiple hospitalizations for BP that usually qualifies you. Try another appeal.  Most say it gets approved on the third time if it’s going to happen. c I have a lawyer helping.  My pdoc did the paperwork but they say they never got his or mine.  I’m leaving to the lawyer to tell me what needs to go into the appeal.  I have a call in to her.  Her staff person said my file was on her desk. KG

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week was not auspicious.  I got a letter from SS turning down my first appeal.  I’m waiting to hear back from the lawyer who handled the appeal They say inspite of panic attacks and an inability to return to my former work I can do simple repetitive work and follow instructions.  If I hate leaving the house, don’t do stress well and throw up when I get home, how am I suppose to work?  I can go out with someone else and have no problems, but I hate going out alone. BVR said I hadn’t been on contact with them and wanted to close my case. I was told to wait for them to contact me.  Right now, I’m appealing keeping my case open. KG Great, this is what I have to look forward to? I’m sorry to hear that your getting the run-a-round on this. My pdoc suggested to me last week that I get a lawyer too. So now that I’ve moved it’s all about concentrating on getting this SSDI crap done…. BTW – what is BVR? Hilaire

This is not what you have to look forward too.  With few exceptions, most everybody gets turned down the first time for SSDI.  It may not be easy either. I was *told* to wait for BVR to call.  BVR expected me to call them.  So they decided to close my case. KG

Response:

Yeah, you have a lot of shit going on.  BTDT.  Is your pdoc helping you to file?  Getting the proper diagnositic label from a pdoc is essential.  If you’ve had multiple hospitalizations for BP that usually qualifies you. Try another appeal.  Most say it gets approved on the third time if it’s going to happen. c

I have a lawyer helping.  My pdoc did the paperwork but they say they never got his or mine.  I’m leaving to the lawyer to tell me what needs to go into the appeal.  I have a call in to her.  Her staff person said my file was on her desk. KG

Response:

Sounds like you are on the receiving end of the ol’ gover mint red-tape run around.  Hope it goes better soon. I have a degree in social welfare and learned a lot about these various systems.  The paper is mind boggling.  Nothing but nothing gets done unless the proper form is filed. c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, you have a lot of shit going on.  BTDT.  Is your pdoc helping you to file?  Getting the proper diagnositic label from a pdoc is essential. If you’ve had multiple hospitalizations for BP that usually qualifies you. Try another appeal.  Most say it gets approved on the third time if it’s going to happen. c I have a lawyer helping.  My pdoc did the paperwork but they say they never got his or mine.  I’m leaving to the lawyer to tell me what needs to go into the appeal.  I have a call in to her.  Her staff person said my file was on her desk. KG

Response:

Yeah, you have a lot of shit going on.  BTDT.  Is your pdoc helping you to file?  Getting the proper diagnositic label from a pdoc is essential.  If you’ve had multiple hospitalizations for BP that usually qualifies you.  Try another appeal.  Most say it gets approved on the third time if it’s going to happen. c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you ever been hospitalized for BP? If you diagnosis only involves panic attacks and stress problems that may be why you weren’t approved.  The key points they stress are: Can you do the work you did before? No. Will you be disabled for at least one year? For 9 yrs I’ve struggled to keep working.  I was fired from my last job 9 hrs per week for making to many errors due ot problems with concentration. That was last August.  I lost my only fulltime job in 9 yrs the previous Sept.  I had diarreah and was throwing up daily at that job due to stress. I’ve had "crashes resulting in not being able to work for 6 or more months at a time 88 I flared up my tendinitis and was in splints for 9 mos. 94 I had a fibro crash and was misdiagnosed with mono.  All I did was go to work come home and go to bed.  It was triggered by volunteering for a stress filled position that I worked 18 hrs a day for 3 days. 96 Prescription drug interaction gave me anemia.  It took 8 mos to recover. I lost my accounting practice.  I was awake about 3 hrs a day. 02 It’s a coin toss aobut what happened prescription drug interaction between a steroid and nuerotin or I suffered neurotin poisoning without any help from the steroids.  The result was going cold turkey off all my drugs. Hyperactivty that lasted for months, going manic in April, and dealing with drug prescription as drug prescription change or tweaking.  I have panic attacks.  I throw up when I come back from large events.  I still sit and scream at least once a day or may as I become hypomanic from the sheer frustration of it all. I have multiple chemical sensitivites and get sick from perfume, hair products, fumes from copy machines and laser printers, and cleaning products. I’m incontinenant and not proud of it and I have IBS.  Stress makes it worse.  I always keep a box of diapers and change of clothes in the trunk of my car.  I’ve seen the looks my friends make when they see that stuff, but *no one* has ever dared to ask. I’ve ended up in the emergency room about once a year or so due to a precription drug interaction.  Antidepressants don’t really work for me. Basically they "stop working" after a fewmonth  I’ve been through most of the classes of drugs.  Some I can’t take at all because of sever personality changes. Will work result in the worsening of the disability or death? Work will make my disabilites worse.  it won’t result in my death. They may also consider your ability to work consistently.  I got approved on the first try when I applied.  I was also really messed up at the time. In 30 yrs of working, I’ve never been able to hold a job more than 2 yrs. The only time I do well is when I’m self employed.  Right now I don’t have the attention span to put together a garage sale let alone a business. One more question.  Were you applying for SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance) or SSI (Supplemental Security Income).  The requirements are slightly different for the two of them AFAIK. SSDI.  I’m on my second appeal.

Response:

Have you ever been hospitalized for BP? If you diagnosis only involves panic attacks and stress problems that may be why you weren’t approved.  The key points they stress are: Can you do the work you did before?

No. Will you be disabled for at least one year?

For 9 yrs I’ve struggled to keep working.  I was fired from my last job 9 hrs per week for making to many errors due ot problems with concentration. That was last August.  I lost my only fulltime job in 9 yrs the previous Sept.  I had diarreah and was throwing up daily at that job due to stress. I’ve had "crashes resulting in not being able to work for 6 or more months at a time 88 I flared up my tendinitis and was in splints for 9 mos. 94 I had a fibro crash and was misdiagnosed with mono.  All I did was go to work come home and go to bed.  It was triggered by volunteering for a stress filled position that I worked 18 hrs a day for 3 days. 96 Prescription drug interaction gave me anemia.  It took 8 mos to recover. I lost my accounting practice.  I was awake about 3 hrs a day. 02 It’s a coin toss aobut what happened prescription drug interaction between a steroid and nuerotin or I suffered neurotin poisoning without any help from the steroids.  The result was going cold turkey off all my drugs. Hyperactivty that lasted for months, going manic in April, and dealing with drug prescription as drug prescription change or tweaking.  I have panic attacks.  I throw up when I come back from large events.  I still sit and scream at least once a day or may as I become hypomanic from the sheer frustration of it all. I have multiple chemical sensitivites and get sick from perfume, hair products, fumes from copy machines and laser printers, and cleaning products. I’m incontinenant and not proud of it and I have IBS.  Stress makes it worse.  I always keep a box of diapers and change of clothes in the trunk of my car.  I’ve seen the looks my friends make when they see that stuff, but *no one* has ever dared to ask. I’ve ended up in the emergency room about once a year or so due to a precription drug interaction.  Antidepressants don’t really work for me. Basically they "stop working" after a fewmonth  I’ve been through most of the classes of drugs.  Some I can’t take at all because of sever personality changes. Will work result in the worsening of the disability or death?

Work will make my disabilites worse.  it won’t result in my death. They may also consider your ability to work consistently.  I got approved on the first try when I applied.  I was also really messed up at the time.

In 30 yrs of working, I’ve never been able to hold a job more than 2 yrs. The only time I do well is when I’m self employed.  Right now I don’t have the attention span to put together a garage sale let alone a business. One more question.  Were you applying for SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance) or SSI (Supplemental Security Income).  The requirements are slightly different for the two of them AFAIK.

SSDI.  I’m on my second appeal.

Response:

Last week was not auspicious.  I got a letter from SS turning down my first appeal.  I’m waiting to hear back from the lawyer who handled the appeal They say inspite of panic attacks and an inability to return to my former work I can do simple repetitive work and follow instructions.  If I hate leaving the house, don’t do stress well and throw up when I get home, how am I suppose to work?  I can go out with someone else and have no problems, but I hate going out alone. BVR said I hadn’t been on contact with them and wanted to close my case.  I was told to wait for them to contact me.  Right now, I’m appealing keeping my case open. KG

Response:

Have you ever been hospitalized for BP? If you diagnosis only involves panic attacks and stress problems that may be why you weren’t approved.  The key points they stress are: Can you do the work you did before? Will you be disabled for at least one year? Will work result in the worsening of the disability or death? They may also consider your ability to work consistently.  I got approved on the first try when I applied.  I was also really messed up at the time. One more question.  Were you applying for SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance) or SSI (Supplemental Security Income).  The requirements are slightly different for the two of them AFAIK. c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week was not auspicious.  I got a letter from SS turning down my first appeal.  I’m waiting to hear back from the lawyer who handled the appeal They say inspite of panic attacks and an inability to return to my former work I can do simple repetitive work and follow instructions.  If I hate leaving the house, don’t do stress well and throw up when I get home, how am I suppose to work?  I can go out with someone else and have no problems, but I hate going out alone. BVR said I hadn’t been on contact with them and wanted to close my case. I was told to wait for them to contact me.  Right now, I’m appealing keeping my case open. KG

Response:

Question:

Everyone that knows anything already knows what you said Jody. But you do not know how psychic things happen in the universe. It is my intention to find out. What exactly is rock consciousness? How does this connectedness affect relationships between people using karmic subtle causes? Where are karmic causes stored? What is aether/ether?/ the astral body/subtle matter? When you tell someone about going in, where is it that you go? What is consciousness? Other  dimensions have the potential to explain psychic phenomena. Unlike most others, I am actively looking to answer these questions. Other people have accepted them in one way or another as being likely unable to be understood at all one way or another. I can understand this because it is not necessary but at the same time by far most people are not in a position to have any chance of understanding these things but I do have such a chance from my background in engineering and mathematics. I am looking for objectification of the truth you say below. It would be helpful if you could recall specific passages in the Gita/Vedas that refer specifically of the oneness. You scoff of course. But you should consider that science is writing future generations a ticket away from looking for God using things like Creationism against ‘all you weak people that suffer from the God delusion. Genetics/Evolutions and natural selection are reality – you just can’t accept it.’ (like us incredible atheis) Religious people tend to take the same smug conceited attitude you do towards this post. Too bad if you don’t believe. Science does the same thing. Thats unfortunate because historically it has been religion that led the charge to knowledge. Today, like Stephen Hawking says, philosophy has been reduced to little more than lauguage interpretation because they can no longer understand the science.  You do not need any of the stuff I talk about on science. But you clearly do not seem to understand there is a world for which you are totally oblivious concerning battleground of religion and science. Prior to the Enlightenment in the West, scientists were members of the Church to a large extent. They basically all bailed out knowing the church was full of garbage. Galileo was told he could not possibly have found another moon around a planet because the Church had not authorized another heavenly body in the sky…… It is bad enough I have to fend off science worshipers and atheists. I do not consider what you said to contribute to anything and while true, it is also trite. Mike Dubbeld

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘We are all connected.’ Working on this one lately. [snip]  From the regard of who you really are, all that was a waste of time.  The connection isn’t made by inter-connection, it is made by the absolutely identical nature of all being. There aren’t many beings or parts of being, there is only one being. If you want to know this connection, know yourself as this one being.  Then you’ll know yourself as all being. You’ll find that no connection is necessary as you’ve always been the whole thing.

Response:

Jody has said it.. ) ) bindu

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ‘We are all connected.’ Working on this one lately. [snip]  From the regard of who you really are, all that was a waste of time.  The connection isn’t made by inter-connection, it is made by the absolutely identical nature of all being. There aren’t many beings or parts of being, there is only one being. If you want to know this connection, know yourself as this one being.  Then you’ll know yourself as all being. You’ll find that no connection is necessary as you’ve always been the whole thing.

Response:

Blue Looking up we see the blue sky below the mist…… Above the sky……. A sky ….. In a clear sky there are no clouds. With the leap of faith knowing pervades being. Loving we Know peace…… Intellectualizing we see mist Above Love…….Thus are we able to let go of knowing. Above…….sky below…..Mist…….

Response:

‘We are all connected.’ Working on this one lately. [snip]

 From the regard of who you really are, all that was a waste of time.  The connection isn’t made by inter-connection, it is made by the absolutely identical nature of all being. There aren’t many beings or parts of being, there is only one being. If you want to know this connection, know yourself as this one being.  Then you’ll know yourself as all being. You’ll find that no connection is necessary as you’ve always been the whole thing.

Response:

‘We are all connected.’ Working on this one lately. Came across other-than-string theory Quantum Mechanics interpretation – Copenhagen Interpretation etc. From Hyperspace – warped higher dimensional spacetime implications one of the theories for quantum mechanics is the ‘Many Worlds Theory’ – where trillions upon endless trillions of universes exist simultaneously (I don’t buy it) – reminded me of Leibniz (an inventor of Calculus) coming up with a ‘Best of all possible worlds’ theory to explain evil/theodicy. So I compared the 2 of them for similarities. Some was interesting but I didn’t find any particular connections. Spinoza had to have known about Vedanta – he said the entire universe has consciousness. So here I am again back to the entropy deal – where does chemistry end and life begin question. In what capacity does a rock have consciousness? That is what led me to consolidate my material on ‘Connectedness’ and ask if anyone knows of sources on this subject. The question is at least 2500 years old in the West alone. Parmenides stole ‘The One’ from Vedanta I am convinced. The Ionians/Atomists refuted with ‘The Many.’ Plato in his ‘Forms’ and ‘Form of the Good’ (God) attempted to resolve the differences between the 2 schools of though but failed and never wrote his last dialog ‘The Philosopher King.’ I am putting together a profile on this idea of ‘we are all connected’ from 4 perspectives – 1 Quantum Mechanics/Bells Theorem/EPR Paradox/Local     Variables 2 Yoga/Vedanta/Bhagavad Gita/Karma consequences/action/     cause and effect. 3 Psychology (Constancy/Perceiver-Perceived bias/survival etc) 4 Philosophy (Western Bishop Berkley ‘Matter is an occult     phenomena’/Ockhams Razor/tree falling in a forest) In physics the 3 ‘Indefinables’ are either Space/Time/Matter or Space/Time/Force. In the Newtonian Mechanistic Deterministic universe, Space was ‘out there’ – sort of a box we as separate entities peer into. Time is independent of space and is eternal. Matter in space/the universe is in space but has no more effect on either space or time than a movie played on a movie screen. It is totally independent of both space and time. Space (again this is Newtonian and Euclidean geometry – flat spacetime) is empty. It is unlike matter which is composed of something. With General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics all the above went out the door. Space is NOT empty. ( if we close an empty box in space so no     electromagnetic waves like light to pass through it – is     STILL not empty) Virtual particles/quantum foam/fluctuations. Time is NOT independent of space. Matter alters both space and time. (gravity) All things in the universe are connected. (Guess again gravity fans.     As the force of gravity drops off with the square of the distance     between matter, it is true enough to say ‘we are all connected’     because all matter has a gravitational pull on all other matter in     the universe. But since it is so small it can for all practical     purposes be disregarded. True dat. That is NOT what is the     case however in in quantum mechanics idea of space. Force     does NOT drop off with distance…..) The Big Bang created time along with space – this is interconnectedness.     Space is also ’something’ like matter. If anyone has any suggestions for interconnectedness let me know. Especially on yoga and the Bhagavad Gita and Hinduism/Karma. Later I will be putting out the above 4 categories – foremost with which will be the references for them. Not real interested in die-hard Realists refutations at the moment. (Realists believe that objects have independent objective existence apart from all other objects. Einstein and Planck were supporters of this position and very few physicists today accept their position (as much as they would like to – to return order to physics and the universe and rescue it from quantum mechanics).). One of the most fascinating cases is an unorthodox accounting of matter as macroscopic discrete entities held together by harmonic oscillations of standing wave base frequencies and related to biology and cellular structures also — http://www.heartbeat2000.com/aum.htm (new short version) Vishnu points out that space/time and mind are basically what constitute’s Maya. I plan to show how clinical psychology adheres to this position and integrates it with survival and evolution. Of course, clinical psychology refers to the brain and not the mind. Have a lot of scattered information on this. Any suggestions? Mike Dubbeld

Response:

Question:

The reason for the low rating is likely the center pin strength.  You can have massive pulleys and frame, but if the point they turn on is weak, that limits the load rating. I sure wouldn’t use that setup you have with anything except my 1.5 ton hand winch.  Certainly not with my Warn 9000i winch. Mike

You are missing the point – in the Uk the ratings for pulling and lifting in the industrial sense are huge – ther is a massive safety factor for anything to do with lifting. The pin on this bugger is about 1.5" solid alloy steel.

Response:

No. You get two wires of 8000lbs each. Only the tree-strap, coming from that snatch-block, must cope with 16000lbs. — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink

I was not on about a simple double line.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reason for the low rating is likely the center pin strength.  You can have massive pulleys and frame, but if the point they turn on is weak, that limits the load rating. I sure wouldn’t use that setup you have with anything except my 1.5 ton hand winch.  Certainly not with my Warn 9000i winch. Mike You are missing the point – in the Uk the ratings for pulling and lifting in the industrial sense are huge – ther is a massive safety factor for anything to do with lifting. The pin on this bugger is about 1.5" solid alloy steel.

Or is the pin 1.5" of soft regular grade steel? Is the end of the pin marked with the grade on it? My 1.5 ton hand winch has a pin that is 1/4" only of what looks like stainless steel.  No grade marks on the end anyway.  If it had the same grade of steel pin and was 1.5", wow, what a load it would be able to carry. Even figuring in a safety factor of X2 or X4, I still wouldn’t use that thing of yours with my winch.  My winch can put 18000 lb on the pulley pin. I have seen big old clunkers from the UK like you describe and I have seen the pulleys split on them under load.  The guy figured he would use the ’safety factor’. Mike

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server.carolina.rr.com: At the point on the snatch block where the wire/rope is centered, the load on the wire/rope is equal to the total weight being pulled. That is the weak point. The loads may be halved on either side of the SB, but in the middle the loads add up. If one has a rope rated for 50lbs, no matter how many pullies one puts on the rope it will still fail at 55lbs.

Nope, the rope tension is still the same as before (assuming max winch load)….it *can’t* be different, in a free-rolling-block situation. It’s the action=reaction concept, not doubling anywhere in the middle. — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink       The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than      the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

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and the bumper you attatch it to.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink If you insert a snatch block or pulley you double the pulling or lifting capacity – therefore the weight on the wire is 2x. For example an 8,000lb winch will lift 16,000lbs – therfore the wire must be strong enough for this new load!!! Last I checked, 8000 lbs. spread over 2 points was 4000 lbs. per point. The only thing seeing 8000 lbs. is the snatch block. —

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Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power!

I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). Oh I forgot to mention – no need to go to the Gym ever again!!!!!!

Seems a lovely job in hot & humid weather, with nasty flies around….8-)) — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink       The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than      the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The pin on this bugger is about 1.5" solid alloy steel. Or is the pin 1.5" of soft regular grade steel? Is the end of the pin marked with the grade on it? My 1.5 ton hand winch has a pin that is 1/4" only of what looks like stainless steel.  No grade marks on the end anyway.  If it had the same grade of steel pin and was 1.5", wow, what a load it would be able to carry. Even figuring in a safety factor of X2 or X4, I still wouldn’t use that thing of yours with my winch.  My winch can put 18000 lb on the pulley pin. I have seen big old clunkers from the UK like you describe and I have seen the pulleys split on them under load.  The guy figured he would use the ’safety factor’. Mike

Firstly I think you will find even chocloate steel of 1.5" is stronget than some super tough 1/4"! Secondly what size wire does your winch have? My Tirfor has 7/16" wire and yet is rated far lower than some of these electric winches "claim" to be capable of! Just found out – the typical safety factor of these things in the UK is 10:1 so forget your x2 or x4.  I think that pulley is far safer than the safety factor on your winch will ever be. As the original poster pointed out – many electric winches are rated at what the wire will snap at!!!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you insert a snatch block or pulley you double the pulling or lifting capacity – therefore the weight on the wire is 2x. For example an 8,000lb winch will lift 16,000lbs – therfore the wire must be strong enough for this new load!!! Yeah, but there’s two wires, so the load is only (e.g.) 8000# per. With the snatch block, you’re running one wire up, and one back, if that makes sense, so the load overall is doubled, not the load per wire. — A The overall capacity is doubled, the load on the winch is halved.

I should have used ‘max load’ more consequently, otherwise things get confusing. Either max winch/wire load, or equal pull demand (halving winch/wire load). — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink       The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than      the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink If you insert a snatch block or pulley you double the pulling or lifting capacity – therefore the weight on the wire is 2x. For example an 8,000lb winch will lift 16,000lbs – therfore the wire must be strong enough for this new load!!!

No. You get two wires of 8000lbs each. Only the tree-strap, coming from that snatch-block, must cope with 16000lbs. — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink       The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than      the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

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The reason for the low rating is likely the center pin strength.  You can have massive pulleys and frame, but if the point they turn on is weak, that limits the load rating. I sure wouldn’t use that setup you have with anything except my 1.5 ton hand winch.  Certainly not with my Warn 9000i winch. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33×9.5 BFG Muds, ‘glass nose to tail 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT’s (Now with NO photo links due to a change in Sony’s ImageStation policy.  Folks have to join to view my albums!!!)  Pricks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Talking of snatch blocks or sheaves or pulleys – I have just been given a seriously heavy duty one – it weighs about 50lbs and yet is rated at 1.5ton – the reason for the low rating? it is certified for lifting which in the UK means massive safety margins – it makes the so called 8 ton recovery ones look like they are made out of chocolate!!!

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Talking of snatch blocks or sheaves or pulleys – I have just been given a seriously heavy duty one – it weighs about 50lbs and yet is rated at 1.5ton – the reason for the low rating? it is certified for lifting which in the UK means massive safety margins – it makes the so called 8 ton recovery ones look like they are made out of chocolate!!!

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deja.com says… Interesting experiment.  Now if your thread was a winch cable this is how the math would work (ignoring your results). The pully and whatever you connected it too would see 100% of the ‘rock’ weight. The winch cable would see 50% at either end assuming that one end it connected to the rock and the other to your finger that is so close to the rock that the line was parallel. If the lines were not parallel there would be more. How the thread acts as it goes around the pully is a bit tougher and no doubt it broke at the pully every time.  As long as your thread er… winch cable is rated at the required load with safety margin you should be fine.  Your winch though would never see the force that   broke your thread/cable. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At the point on the snatch block where the wire/rope is centered, the load on the wire/rope is equal to the total weight being pulled. That is the weak point. The loads may be halved on either side of the SB, but in the middle the loads add up. If one has a rope rated for 50lbs, no matter how many pullies one puts on the rope it will still fail at 55lbs. Ok. Just to be sure that I had not gotten anything wrong I did an experiment. I took some sewing thread and a rock. The thread was barely strong enough to hold the rock up. Any shaking whatsoever would break the thread. I then tried to lift the rock with the same thread on little (1/4 inch) pulley. EVERY time the thread broke easier than without the pulley. Why? Because all the load was concentrated on the pulley. The thread on the pulley had to deal with not only the weight on the rock, but the friction of the pulley.  Now, since the theory here was the loads are halved the friction should have not had any effect and the rock should have been easily lifted.  It wasn’t. Anyone here can duplicate this experiment. Try it. You will find that a 8,000lb load is a 8,000lb load no matter how many pulleys you put on it. Mechanical advantage may make it easier to move, but that is based on gearing more than anything else.  The load is the same.  

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At the point on the snatch block where the wire/rope is centered, the load on the wire/rope is equal to the total weight being pulled. That is the weak point. The loads may be halved on either side of the SB, but in the middle the loads add up. If one has a rope rated for 50lbs, no matter how many pullies one puts on the rope it will still fail at 55lbs. Ok. Just to be sure that I had not gotten anything wrong I did an experiment. I took some sewing thread and a rock. The thread was barely strong enough to hold the rock up. Any shaking whatsoever would break the thread. I then tried to lift the rock with the same thread on little (1/4 inch) pulley. EVERY time the thread broke easier than without the pulley. Why? Because all the load was concentrated on the pulley. The thread on the pulley had to deal with not only the weight on the rock, but the friction of the pulley.  Now, since the theory here was the loads are halved the friction should have not had any effect and the rock should have been easily lifted.  It wasn’t. Anyone here can duplicate this experiment. Try it. You will find that a 8,000lb load is a 8,000lb load no matter how many pulleys you put on it. Mechanical advantage may make it easier to move, but that is based on gearing more than anything else.  The load is the same.  

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More likely it will not be off you go, it will be off your legs go… <g Most failures are not the winch side failing but on the output (hook) of the snatch block. Yes, but unless the wire is physically attached to the snatch block so that if one side breaks the other will hold you still have 8,000 lbs on the wire where it meets the snatch block. No, the whole point of a snatch block or any pulley system is to halve the load on either side. Assuming you run the line out of the winch, through the block (which is tied to an anchor) and back to the vehicle, the winch and line only see half the load.  The block and anchor see the full load.  Break the line and all bets are off.  The unbroken line will zip around the block and off you go!

Peter D. Hipson NEHOG (New England Hummer Owners Group) checked monthly.

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Peter you’re either writing it so confusingly as I can’t understand what you’re saying, or you have it completely backwards.  Pulleys and snatch-blocks reduce the load and thereby make it EASIER to lift or pull something.  Afterall, that’s why we use multiple pulley arrangements to halve, quarter, etc. the load and make it easier… so the load is never "doubled" by using a snatch-block, it is halved. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Uh, no, not on the winch side. On the line doubled through the snatch block, the load is doubled, but so is the cable, so that each piece carries the *same* load as before. On the ‘output’ side of the snatch block, the load is doubled too, so you’d better have something strong enough to take that load! Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). Peter D. Hipson NEHOG (New England Hummer Owners Group) checked monthly.

– Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL KC6TAY The Zen Hotdog… make me one with everything! Geezer Jeep:  http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/gallery/JBransfordsTJ/

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Uh, no, not on the winch side. On the line doubled through the snatch block, the load is doubled, but so is the cable, so that each piece carries the *same* load as before. On the ‘output’ side of the snatch block, the load is doubled too, so you’d better have something strong enough to take that load! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed).

Peter D. Hipson NEHOG (New England Hummer Owners Group) checked monthly.

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Yes, but unless the wire is physically attached to the snatch block so that if one side breaks the other will hold you still have 8,000 lbs on the wire where it meets the snatch block. No, the whole point of a snatch block or any pulley system is to halve the load on either side.

Assuming you run the line out of the winch, through the block (which is tied to an anchor) and back to the vehicle, the winch and line only see half the load.  The block and anchor see the full load.  Break the line and all bets are off.  The unbroken line will zip around the block and off you go!

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If one side breaks the cable goes slack and you have no load at all.

Hmm. Actually we instaneously have 8000# load going to no load at all. Whether or not steel cable snaps, or even if it’s that new plastic rope stuff, I for one do not wish to be there — A — daily his-n-hers Isuzu’s: hers 2000 Rodeo, his 2001 Rodeo Sport/Amigo others: 1993 Nissan 300ZX   1965 VW Type 3 Notchback  1992 Saturn SL2 trucks: 1974 Blazer "TankGrrl"         1990 Suburban V/2500 "SubGrrl" camping: 1977 Blazer Chalet #1060 "Camp Koala"      1977 Chalet #1383

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last I checked, 8000 lbs. spread over 2 points was 4000 lbs. per point. The only thing seeing 8000 lbs. is the snatch block. — Yes, but unless the wire is physically attached to the snatch block so that if one side breaks the other will hold you still have 8,000 lbs on the wire where it meets the snatch block.

No, the whole point of a snatch block or any pulley system is to halve the load on either side. Jerry — Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL KC6TAY The Zen Hotdog… make me one with everything! Geezer Jeep:  http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/gallery/JBransfordsTJ/

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Last I checked, 8000 lbs. spread over 2 points was 4000 lbs. per point.   The only thing seeing 8000 lbs. is the snatch block. —

Yes, but unless the wire is physically attached to the snatch block so that if one side breaks the other will hold you still have 8,000 lbs on the wire where it meets the snatch block.  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). If you insert a snatch block or pulley you double the pulling or lifting capacity – therefore the weight on the wire is 2x. For example an 8,000lb winch will lift 16,000lbs – therfore the wire must be strong enough for this new load!!!

Yeah, but there’s two wires, so the load is only (e.g.) 8000# per. With the snatch block, you’re running one wire up, and one back, if that makes sense, so the load overall is doubled, not the load per wire. — A — daily his-n-hers Isuzu’s: hers 2000 Rodeo, his 2001 Rodeo Sport/Amigo others: 1993 Nissan 300ZX   1965 VW Type 3 Notchback  1992 Saturn SL2 trucks: 1974 Blazer "TankGrrl"         1990 Suburban V/2500 "SubGrrl" camping: 1977 Blazer Chalet #1060 "Camp Koala"      1977 Chalet #1383

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink

If you insert a snatch block or pulley you double the pulling or lifting capacity – therefore the weight on the wire is 2x. For example an 8,000lb winch will lift 16,000lbs – therfore the wire must be strong enough for this new load!!!

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Thats some damn good info to know. Using line weights and my fiber pull line instead of metal line is good. I am thinking since I do use snatch blocks my line rating is even further decreased. Now if all this stuff is correct then I am going to have to do some outside testing of my own.

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Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I am amazed winch makers can sell something with such a small safety margin. I never use a vehicle mounted winch – I find for SELF recovery a Tirfor is much better http://www.tractel.com/Products/lift&materialshandling/hoists/tirfor/… ange.htm They are really powerful but hard work. Because they are used so much in industry they have a safety factor of 4x – ie the max pulling power before a shear pin goes is 1/4 the breaking strain of the wire. For example the 4,000lb LIFTING model has 7/16" wire rope – much better than the vehicle winches. Remember this is the lifting power – it will pull a hell of a lot more. Also with this sort of safety margin you can easily get away with a snatch block to double the pull. Although they are hard work when you get stuck you normally only need top go back a few feet – try that with a winch on the front! The other advantage is that they always work – and the pull is always the same. You can use them for lowering down a steep icy track and they have a 1001 other uses as well. Oh I forgot to mention – no need to go to the Gym ever again!!!!!!

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If you buy a winch or a wire rope with a 9000 pound load rating, don’t ever expect that you can actually pull a 9000 pound load over the fairlead, or even over the winch drum.  Load ratings are comparative and not real. They apply to the winch and the rope as individual components, rather than the lower rating that would describe the whole assembly. They are like the EPA mileage ratings; you will never do that well out in the real world. The SAE standard for rating of winches, J406, say that rated line pulls shown are for the winch only.  If a rope comes with the winch, the rated line pull gets published with a note added saying that the breaking strength of new (size and construction) rope is (XXX) pounds.  That may not be what you the consumer are expecting, but it sounds more impressive in the sales literature. The web site for MileMarker winches contains a link to a website, www.winchtest.com The winch test was unusual in that they paid an outside laboratory (Applied Technical Services or ATS for short) to only run a test of a competitor’s product (Warn XD9000i 9000 pound winch) rather than doing a comparison by also testing their own equivalent product (the 70-50030C 9000 pound single speed winch ).  They never mentioned the SAE J406 standard.  Some of the conclusions drawn in the ATS test report are that: * When pulling at or near its advertised rated capacity of 9000 lb, the Warn XD9000i winch’s wire ropes failed consistently * The wire rope failures on the XD9000i winch occurred at loads ranging from 72% to 103% of its advertised capacity * Based on standard industry calculation methods, the design breaking strength of the wire rope supplied with the Warn XD9000i winch was approximately 10% less than the winch’s advertised capacity. *The recoil from a sudden and unexpected wire rope failure could result in death or serious injury to the winch’s users or bystanders. A wire rope failure during winching could also cause the user to lose control of the vehicle. *The XD9000i was unreasonably dangerous because the users or bystanders would be exposed to the hazards produced by failure of the wire rope with no prior indication that the winch had been overloaded. What the lab report does not say is that the single speed 9000 lb MileMarker winch listed on their  web site is equipped with the same breaking strength of 5/16" diameter rope, and also the same diameter drum as on the Warn 9000 pound winch.  If MileMarker really believed the report that they paid for, then they logically should have immediately recalled their Model 70-50030C .  As of today it is still listed on their web site. The nominal tensile strength rating for a rope is a quality control test.  All it means is that is what you could expect for pulling a brand new rope in a straight line just once. It’s kind of like the EPA mileage rating –  it’s a comparative test, but you will never do that well in reality.  The ATS report notes that the tensile strength for a galvanized 7×19 wire rope is 9800 lb, but the minimum strength can be 2% less, or 9555 lb.  So, why did the ropes beak at below 9000 lb? If you look up the Wire Rope User’s Manual, you will find that when bent around a pin (the winch drum) the breaking strength of a rope is less than the rated tensile strength by a factor called the efficiency.  The efficiency is a way of accounting for bending, like a fancier version of saying that putting a knot in a fiber rope weakens it.  The winch drum is 2.5 inches in diameter, or 8 times the rope diameter, so according to Figure 38 the efficiency is 84%. So, the rope should break at a load of 0.84*9555lb, or 8026 lb. Out there in the boonies the situation is even worse because the rope may be bent around an even smaller diameter pin (the fairlead or a pulley).  For example, with a diameter ratio of 4 times the rope diameter the efficiency would only be 75%, so the rope should break at a load of 7166 lb. With a diameter ratio of 16 the efficiency would be 90%. To get an efficiency of 95% you would need a diameter ratio of 32, or a 10 inch drum for 5/16 rope and a big wart on your front bumper. A wire rope is a machine.  It has a finite life that depends on the history of how it was loaded.  The wires are only held together by friction, and every time you load the rope they are rubbing each other at a whole bunch of small spots. Eventually some of the wires will begin to break.  When you repeatedly load a rope you are progressively damaging it (fatiguing it).  How badly depends on the bending stress determined by the load and the pin diameter (drum or fairlead diameter).  The analysis section of the ATS report notes that for typical wire rope applications a wire rope is used at 1/5th of the rated tensile strength. Worse yet, the wires may also be corroding from a poultice of road salt and dirt splashed on the drum. Pittsburgh Pete INFAMOUS USS DISCLAIMER Note: It is understood that this material is intended for general information only and should not be used in relation to any specific application without independent examination and verification of its applicability and suitability by professionally qualified personnel. Those making use thereof or relying thereon assume all risk and liability arising from such use or reliance. ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF DISCLAIMER We don’t believe what we write, and neither should you. Information furnished to you is for topical (external) use only. This information may not be worth any more than either a groundhog turd, or what you paid for it (nothing). The author may not even have been either sane or sober when he wrote it down. Don’t worry, be happy.

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Question:

Can the situation be fixed?  Yes, but it will hurt.

We agree. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

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I’m waiting for some one to arise, who will pay the considerable price, to lead the reformation. Can the situation be fixed?  Yes, but it will hurt. We agree. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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OOOH, my favorite behavioral summation word of what I saw as wrong with so many people, the "opinion leaders" (whew that’s an overworked puff phrase) of professional accounting included. I look at the AICPA, and what I see, is an organization that reflects its membership.  No more, no less, no ulterior motives, no grand conspiracy.  Being a real leader is hard, it takes a special type of person.  That type of person usually (word stressed, it does not mean one hundred percent) does not turn up in accounting.  The lemmings who went down the road of cheap and easy profits through sloppy audits and really bad consulting did it of there own free will has a group.  The profession, following along as good little lemmings, didn’t discipline them.  The colleges, another heard of lemmings, didn’t act as gate keeper and deny degrees to the amoral, unethical little furry ones. What few good men there are in the profession and the universities did nothing and bad won out. Can the situation be fixed?  Yes, but it will hurt.

… not, however, call it’s membership as a "bunch of rats". I would rather refer to them as "lemming".

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

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Perhaps, the concern is with the slow (if it acts at all) action it takes on those CPAs and firms that are reported for misconduct.  Are there any statistics available that would shed light on the "policing" of the AICPA? I was told by my colleagues that a case we reported, which has been over 4 years now, has had no action that we are aware of. Tippy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Robert Frost wrote a poem about two roads diverging in a yellow wood and how he took the road less traveled and how that had made all the difference in his life. When you take his poem and you look at our CPA profession, it is evident that we have some CPAs who always see the glass half-full and we have other CPAs who always see the glass half-empty. continued at …http://www.cpatalk.com CPAs who want to place the blame on the AICPA or the history of the AICPA for what our profession is currently going through, are completely missing the mark! The public is not worried or concerned about the AICPA but they are very worried and concerned about CPAs who have not been doing what neeeds to be done to protect their interest.It’s time we go back to the business of protecting the public’s interest and doing it responsibly and with honesty and integrity. I fail to see what "the road less traveled" and "half empty / half full" have to do with each other. More to the point would be Matthew 7:13 – "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it". The accounting "industry" has clearly taken the wrong road, and we need to correct our error. As to the AICPA, it seems to me that those letters represent the folks who so confidently took us down the wrong road. In my opinion it is time they were replaced. To: Jim Hudspeth The AICPA did not send us down the road of destruction. Maybe you need to look in the mirror and see if you or any of our colleagues shoulder any responsibility for the state that our profession in in today. Laying the blame on the AICPA is a cop-out and is a denial of responsibility and reality. At what point do we individual CPAs have responsibility for selling out and making bad decisions ? The AICPA is not the pied piper because if they were that would make us all a bunch of rats going through "Those wide gates". If I screw up I screw up ! It is not the AICPA’s fault. It is time we accept responsibility for what we do rather than looking around to blame someone else for our problems. That excuse just won’t sell. 4 Posted on March 5, 2002, 8:53 am Pacific by You Make Exactly My Point To: You Make Exactly My Point Dear "You Make Exactly My Point", You can go look in your own mirror. I haven’t been a member of the AICPA since 1979.  Regarding "the pied piper" and "a bunch of rats":  I like your metaphor regarding the AICPA, except that in my opinion you are dead wrong. The AICPA has been something of a "pied piper". I would not, however, call it’s membership as a "bunch of rats". I would rather refer to them as "lemming". 5 Posted on March 5, 2002, 3:35 pm Pacific by Jim Hudspeth http://www.cpatalk.com — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Robert Frost wrote a poem about two roads diverging in a yellow wood and how he took the road less traveled and how that had made all the difference in his life. When you take his poem and you look at our CPA profession, it is evident that we have some CPAs who always see the glass half-full and we have other CPAs who always see the glass half-empty. continued at …http://www.cpatalk.com CPAs who want to place the blame on the AICPA or the history of the AICPA for what our profession is currently going through, are completely missing the mark! The public is not worried or concerned about the AICPA but they are very worried and concerned about CPAs who have not been doing what neeeds to be done to protect their interest.It’s time we go back to the business of protecting the public’s interest and doing it responsibly and with honesty and integrity. I fail to see what "the road less traveled" and "half empty / half full" have to do with each other. More to the point would be Matthew 7:13 – "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it". The accounting "industry" has clearly taken the wrong road, and we need to correct our error. As to the AICPA, it seems to me that those letters represent the folks who so confidently took us down the wrong road. In my opinion it is time they were replaced.

To: Jim Hudspeth The AICPA did not send us down the road of destruction. Maybe you need to look in the mirror and see if you or any of our colleagues shoulder any responsibility for the state that our profession in in today. Laying the blame on the AICPA is a cop-out and is a denial of responsibility and reality. At what point do we individual CPAs have responsibility for selling out and making bad decisions ? The AICPA is not the pied piper because if they were that would make us all a bunch of rats going through "Those wide gates". If I screw up I screw up ! It is not the AICPA’s fault. It is time we accept responsibility for what we do rather than looking around to blame someone else for our problems. That excuse just won’t sell. 4 Posted on March 5, 2002, 8:53 am Pacific by You Make Exactly My Point To: You Make Exactly My Point Dear "You Make Exactly My Point", You can go look in your own mirror. I haven’t been a member of the AICPA since 1979.  Regarding "the pied piper" and "a bunch of rats":  I like your metaphor regarding the AICPA, except that in my opinion you are dead wrong. The AICPA has been something of a "pied piper". I would not, however, call it’s membership as a "bunch of rats". I would rather refer to them as "lemming". 5 Posted on March 5, 2002, 3:35 pm Pacific by Jim Hudspeth http://www.cpatalk.com — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Robert Frost wrote a poem about two roads diverging in a yellow wood and how he took the road less traveled and how that had made all the difference in his life. When you take his poem and you look at our CPA profession, it is evident that we have some CPAs who always see the glass half-full and we have other CPAs who always see the glass half-empty. continued at …http://www.cpatalk.com CPAs who want to place the blame on the AICPA or the history of the AICPA for what our profession is currently going through, are completely missing the mark! The public is not worried or concerned about the AICPA but they are very worried and concerned about CPAs who have not been doing what neeeds to be done to protect their interest.It’s time we go back to the business of protecting the public’s interest and doing it responsibly and with honesty and integrity.

I fail to see what "the road less traveled" and "half empty / half full" have to do with each other. More to the point would be Matthew 7:13 – "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it". The accounting "industry" has clearly taken the wrong road, and we need to correct our error. As to the AICPA, it seems to me that those letters represent the folks who so confidently took us down the wrong road. In my opinion it is time they were replaced. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Robert Frost wrote a poem about two roads diverging in a yellow wood and how he took the road less traveled and how that had made all the difference in his life. When you take his poem and you look at our CPA profession, it is evident that we have some CPAs who always see the glass half-full and we have other CPAs who always see the glass half-empty. continued at …http://www.cpatalk.com

Response:

Question:

Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions. or (2)  He was so drunk he fell and hit something Jackass!!

I must have missed that episode. Is it a new one? I want to see that one.

Response:

Jackass!!!

That one I did see.

Response:

Well there you go again, OF COURSE he choked on a pretzel, I doubt that there is a single person on this NG who hasn’t choked on a preetzel or potatoe chip and fallen off their chair. A show of hands PLEASE.

Hey! When did Dan Quayle join the group? potatoe?

Response:

Hey! When did Dan Quayle join the group? potatoe?

Hey you got one but you missed the extra "E" in pretzel.  1 outta 2 is NOT bad. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage/profile.html All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fred in AZ Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions. or (2)  He was so drunk he fell and hit something Jackass!! — email address. I do not check for mail there, so will not respond. .

That’s a creative thought.  Why must you oblige Satan with such a negative thought?

Response:

Hey you guys!!  Give Bush a break will ya. you don’t know if he was drinking or not.So what if he had a few beers.He deserves that and more for what he’s been through.since 9-11 .

Response:

That’s a creative thought.  Why must you oblige Satan with such a negative thought?

Is satan a member of this NG? Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage/profile.html All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.

Response:

Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions. Hillary tried to break in again.

Well, Monica Lewinsky almost choaked on…….wait a minute, never mind.  :-) – Sandy

Response:

Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions. or (2)  He was so drunk he fell and hit something.

Response:

Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions. or (2)  He was so drunk he fell and hit something

Jackass!! — email address. I do not check for mail there, so will not respond. .

Response:

Fred in AZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions. or (2)  He was so drunk he fell and hit something Jackass!! — email address. I do not check for mail there, so will not respond. .

Response:

Boy, you are gonna get some flames…..  I wonder though, did he fall off the wagon?  Come on, choked on a pretzel?? -Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions. or (2)  He was so drunk he fell and hit something.

Response:

the Fred in AZ

Jackass!!! — email address. I do not check for mail there, so will not respond.

Response:

I wonder though, did he fall off the wagon?  Come on, choked on a pretzel?? -Dan

Well there you go again, OF COURSE he choked on a pretzel, I doubt that there is a single person on this NG who hasn’t choked on a preetzel or potatoe chip and fallen off their chair. A show of hands PLEASE. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage/profile.html All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.

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Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions. or (2)  He was so drunk he fell and hit something.

Possible yes, probable no. Other speculations were that he single-handedly took on several Ninja assassins sent by Al Qaeda and rendered them unconscious in 30 seconds. He went golfing with Daschle and they discussed the stimulus package. Daschle agreed it was a good idea.  He’s recovering in an undisclosed location.  Have you seen Daschle today???  Me neither. GW was out jogging and saw an old lady being mugged by a gang of ruffians.  He recovered her purse and put them in traction. Your  turn. LZ

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Is it possible the real story on Bush is:

<snip We will probably get the whole story when we get the final accounting of Vince Foster. Steve                ~ Illegitimi Non Carborundum ~

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I wonder if the pretzel factory has – or has ever had – any liberal employees? If so, an investigation in order. Failing that, the manufacturer should be sued

OMG, I never thought of that, I hope it’s NOT Anderson’s in PA. They are my favorite, and I’d hate to see  them go belly up. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage/profile.html All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.

Response:

Digger writes: I wonder though, did he fall off the wagon?  Come on, choked on a pretzel?? -Dan Well there you go again, OF COURSE he choked on a pretzel, I doubt that there is a single person on this NG who hasn’t choked on a preetzel or potatoe chip and fallen off their chair. A show of hands PLEASE.

Cheez, guys…sometimes a cigar is just a cigar…oops, wrong President. Give Dubya a break, thousands of people choke on stuff way weirder than pretzels, everyday. While I’ve never heard of stimulating a nerve in the throat that leads to lower heart rate ya gotta give the guy credit…he didn’t vomit on a foreign dignitary; he didn’t bean a spectator with a golf ball; and he kept his pants zipped through the whole incident.

Response:

he kept his pants zipped through the whole incident.

Yeah maybe, but you know you can’t trust those secret service to tell the "real story". We’ll just have to wait to hear what Laura says. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage/profile.html All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.

Response:

Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions. or (2)  He was so drunk he fell and hit something.

All these things are possible.  It is also quite possible that it was not either one – but virtually the same thing that happened to me two years ago in Canada, frightening my bride outa her wits.   It is also possible that you are a yellow dog Democrat whiner who would not speak well of GWB if he gave you the winning lottery ticket. <plonk again Will KD3XR

Response:

Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions. or (2)  He was so drunk he fell and hit something.

Those ideas are possible. It’s also possible he choked on a pretzel. Why is the world so full of those who wish to believe the worst of every event? Lon

Response:

Is it possible the real story on Bush is: (1)  This is the result of a domestic fight between him and Lura (not seen today) due to some intern interactions.

Hillary tried to break in again.

Response:

Question:

Commerce Clearing Hous Pubs. I’m trying to setup practice management procedures, working papers and templates for an Accounting Practice. Does anyone know where I can get samples and or ideas etc. Thanks Terry

– GIF89ad

Response:

It is really much better if you can do it yourself, cold. Then you know you have a handle on it. However, since that is not the question you asked,  PPC, a Texas firm, sells a practice management manual that should include all you need.  On the free front the audit net (Kaplan) people have various things that might be of value. I’m trying to setup practice management procedures, working papers and templates for an Accounting Practice. Does anyone know where I can get samples and or ideas etc. Thanks Terry

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

I’m trying to setup practice management procedures, working papers and templates for an Accounting Practice. Does anyone know where I can get samples and or ideas etc.

I’d probably echo Ron’s advice–if you "borrow" someone else’s procedures, workpapers and templates you will likely suffer from building inefficiencies into your systems, since you won’t understand the *REASON* for their structure.  Now, if you just want to study them and then build your own, that’s a different issue.  But knowing that accountants seem to love checklists…<grin

Response:

I’m trying to setup practice management procedures, working papers and templates for an Accounting Practice. Does anyone know where I can get samples and or ideas etc. Thanks Terry

Response:

Question:

Thanks JC, I appreciate your jocular insight into my quandry.  Seems like it really would be stupid of me not to put out the effort to complete my degree. I’m starting to look into programs in Seattle and the opportunity I might have for scholarships/grants/loans.  I have also heard of a program called CLEP where you pay your tuition but can study at your own pace and take one final test for the credits.  Not sure if it is offered in the Seattle are but I’m going to look into it. Thanks again! Becky To reply by email send the monky on his way!

Response:

Unfortunately, the "paper" does matter. I started going to night school in 1992 and finished in late 97 in a non-accounting related field (I am looking for a system that’s why I am here.) and have doubled my income in that time. I am not smarter than I was, I could have learned everything on my own (I changed careers and knew nothing of what I do now) but, I would be going up against people who had degrees and were younger and probably would have worked for less. The sense of accomplishment was something I didn’t expect but, received and I am better able to hold up an intelligent conversation in a room of snobs. The degree is expected — the experience gives you the job. Apparently, if you don’t have a degree you are not motivated. I say do it and good luck! — Thanks, JC Haven

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I’ve been lurking here for months and finally decided to ask a burning question that I have. I’m 38 yrs old, have been in bookkeeping and accounting since I was 21.  I have held several positions that held the title "Controller", "Accounting Manager" and the like. I’ve supervised large accounting departments, set up from scratch and cleaned up small companies’ books as well as a stint as a VAR of a small accounting software company. I’ve prepared proformas, performed fixed asset planning, prepared corporate, partnership (all types) and single proprietor tax returns (for CPA review, of course), secured large-scale financing and a myriad of other accounting functions. The only problem I have is that I was not able to finish my degree.  I am starting to work on it again but it will still take me at least three years at night. My questions are this: In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than experience or vice versa? I am planning an interstate move soon and need to decide if I would be better served to go back to school for that "piece of paper" (that was tongue-in-cheek, please forgive me) or stick to my guns and hope that my past experience and references will help me land a job that is challenging and rewarding (financially and otherwise). Thanks for your thoughts! Becky Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal…. I’d better get busy!!!!!!

Response:

<HTML You might be surprised to learn that your message is not possible to read, directly, inside the Agent newsreader, or many other newsreaders and is being ignored by many of the folks here. We can turn on HTML easily enough

Todd, I’m reading & posting via deja.com.  If you know of a way to turn on HTML in deja.com I would appreciate your passing it along. The only way I have of reading HTML stuff now it to copy & paste to Word, save it to a file & reopen as HTML.  I only do that if an article really gets my attention, which is not often. Thanks Jim Hudspeth Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

<HTML

You might be surprised to learn that your message is not possible to read, directly, inside the Agent newsreader, or many other newsreaders and is being ignored by many of the folks here. We can turn on HTML easily enough but this is mostly a plain text discussion forum.  We’ve had distasteful experiences with HTML messages on usenet because hackers and spammers often put functions in the HTML pages that cause problems for the reader, install cookies, upload information to websites, etc.  generally cause a nuisance. Who needs that?   This is a discussion forum.   Todd

Response:

It’s not that bad.  Have you considered doing your degree via correspondance? Its in your own time so you don’t have to attend lectures after work.  You can finish it in 2 years by studying 3 semesters per year. ie over the summer.  I enrolled in this post grad course mid 98. I am half way through and are amazed at how fast the time is flying.  Its recognised by the major professional bodies ASCPA and ICAA and it is highly recognised internationally.  There are a lot of overseas students studying this particular course.  Its with University of Southern Queensland. VIsit their website  www.usq.edu.au. They recognise any relevant industry experience for enrolling. I’m sure you would easily qualify with your experience. best of luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I’ve been lurking here for months and finally decided to ask a burning question that I have. I’m 38 yrs old, have been in bookkeeping and accounting since I was 21.  I have held several positions that held the title "Controller", "Accounting Manager" and the like. I’ve supervised large accounting departments, set up from scratch and cleaned up small companies’ books as well as a stint as a VAR of a small accounting software company. I’ve prepared proformas, performed fixed asset planning, prepared corporate, partnership (all types) and single proprietor tax returns (for CPA review, of course), secured large-scale financing and a myriad of other accounting functions. The only problem I have is that I was not able to finish my degree.  I am starting to work on it again but it will still take me at least three years at night. My questions are this: In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than experience or vice versa? I am planning an interstate move soon and need to decide if I would be better served to go back to school for that "piece of paper" (that was tongue-in-cheek, please forgive me) or stick to my guns and hope that my past experience and references will help me land a job that is challenging and rewarding (financially and otherwise). Thanks for your thoughts! Becky Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal…. I’d better get busy!!!!!!

Response:

At your age, you are competing against those who have both a degree and experience.  

That’s my main concern!  I once hired an outstanding candidate…only to be let down because of the individual’s personal problems that interfered with performance.  

That has happened to me more than once.  I’ve never been afraid to hire someone with more credentials than I – my goal has always been for my department to run smoothly, efficiently and produce timely, quality information.  This makes us all look good to our superiors.  I’ve had a couple folks working for me over the years that must have slept through their college years or have no retention for basic accounting facts.  I guess you can get stuck with folks like that (great resumes, good references and good interviewees) that really don’t have a grasp on the hands-on day to day work required. Thanks again for your thoughts! Becky Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal…. I’d better get busy!!!!!!

Response:

It sounds as though your experience has been quite phenomenal.&nbsp; Where are you moving to?

Back to the Seattle area. I had been there for about 15 years and have only been away a year and a half. I hate to sound snobby or crude, but I’m just trying to be honest.

Oh not at all! I asked for honest opinions and yours is definately appreciated! Can you pursue both a rewarding job and a degree simultaneously?

I think my spirit is willing but I don’t know if there are enough hours in the day – I also have an 8 year old son and am a single mother. it would be worth sacrificing 12 months to remove any and all doubt and secure your future for he next 20-30 years.

I surely can’t argue with that one.  Someone also said that I may be able to get a position with a company that has either tuition reimbursement or assistance – seems like that’s the best idea so far! Thank you everyone for your thoughts – I’m moving in another month and will let you know what opportunities unfold if you’d like to know. Becky Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal…. I’d better get busy!!!!!!

Response:

Out of own experience (I am 48 and have next week exams in intermediate stage from AAT) your papers count a lot by new jobs. But naturally, if you have an exam and you are not good you loose your job very quickly again. Its also fun going back to school and learning keeps you young.

Response:

Curvywoman asked the group alt.accounting : (snip) In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than experience or vice versa?

In most cases that do not involve entry-level positions, it’s pretty much a combination of the two, and it really depends on the organization as to which is given more weight.  There are some employers that will absolutely require certain credentials whether or not they are really needed for the position, while there are others who are willing to give more consideration to previous work experience. All else being equal, degrees and professional certifications are likely to open more doors, and the positions requiring them tend to pay more. Like many things in life, it’s really a trade-off in deciding whether the investment in time and energy is worth the potential payoff.  I would suggest networking with others in the profession to ask their opinion, and try to meet with persons with and without degrees to get different opinions.

Response:

Yes it is becoming increasingly important to have the degree.  If you are planning a move I would consider it even more important.  Here’s why.  First increasingly companies are using credentials to screen prospective job candidates.  Resumes for those that don’t have a degree or other credentials are not getting past the HR department and into the hands of the manager who will actually hire.  Indeed larger companies are using HR software that scans in resumes and will then only select those that meet the minimum requirements for the position, usually expressed with degree requirements. Secondly, while I believe experience is more important in upper level positions, getting in the door is the hard part.  If you are being screened out your best bet to get into an interview is by recognition.  If you have spent a career in a locality where you have made a name for yourself your ability to move between jobs may not be a problem.  They know you and have confidence in your abilities.  However in a new state you will need to re-establish yourself.  And without starting over that ‘piece of paper’ will make that a whole lot easier than without. Finally your income and income potential will only increase with that degree. My advice go for it. Don   Hi all,   I’ve been lurking here for months and finally decided to ask a burning question   that I have.   I’m 38 yrs old, have been in bookkeeping and accounting since I was 21.  I have   held several positions that held the title "Controller", "Accounting Manager"   and the like.   I’ve supervised large accounting departments, set up from scratch and cleaned   up small companies’ books as well as a stint as a VAR of a small accounting   software company. I’ve prepared proformas, performed fixed asset planning,   prepared corporate, partnership (all types) and single proprietor tax returns   (for CPA review, of course), secured large-scale financing and a myriad of   other accounting functions.   The only problem I have is that I was not able to finish my degree.  I am   starting to work on it again but it will still take me at least three years at   night.   My questions are this:     In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than   experience or vice versa?   I am planning an interstate move soon and need to decide if I would be better   served to go back to school for that "piece of paper" (that was   tongue-in-cheek, please forgive me) or stick to my guns and hope that my past   experience and references will help me land a job that is challenging and   rewarding (financially and otherwise).   Thanks for your thoughts!   Becky   Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal….   I’d better get busy!!!!!!

Response:

Hi all, I’ve been lurking here for months and finally decided to ask a burning question that I have. I’m 38 yrs old, have been in bookkeeping and accounting since I was 21.  I have held several positions that held the title "Controller", "Accounting Manager" and the like. I’ve supervised large accounting departments, set up from scratch and cleaned up small companies’ books as well as a stint as a VAR of a small accounting software company. I’ve prepared proformas, performed fixed asset planning, prepared corporate, partnership (all types) and single proprietor tax returns (for CPA review, of course), secured large-scale financing and a myriad of other accounting functions. The only problem I have is that I was not able to finish my degree.  I am starting to work on it again but it will still take me at least three years at night. My questions are this:   In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than experience or vice versa? I am planning an interstate move soon and need to decide if I would be better served to go back to school for that "piece of paper" (that was tongue-in-cheek, please forgive me) or stick to my guns and hope that my past experience and references will help me land a job that is challenging and rewarding (financially and otherwise). Thanks for your thoughts! Becky Someone just told me that this isn’t a dress rehearsal…. I’d better get busy!!!!!!

Response:

Yes, unfortunately, the "piece of paper" is important. I too have lots of experience but had problems getting interviews for jobs I was qualified to do and for a decent salary, mainly because I lacked the degree.  Generally I found that people like to see the experience and will hire a non-degreed person because they don’t want to pay for the degree but figure they are getting an equivalent person. That type of employer is seldom pro-employee, in my opinion and should be avoided.  It took me 8 1/2 yrs of night school, but I finally got my degree last year at the age of 42 (double major in accounting and business admin). I also got a master certificate in MS Office and have doubled my hourly rate from what it was 6 yrs ago, and I only work part time, now in public accounting.  I could earn even more if I went full time and sat for the CPA or CMA exams and had the desire for a "real career". In other words…GO FOR IT! If you want a lifelong career and be able to always find a job, you should have the degree. I would try to find a job now and get your employer to pay for your classes, many will. That way you keep your skills fresh and save money. Good Luck! ….The only problem I have is that I was not able to finish my degree.

I am starting to work on it again but it will still take me at least three years at night. My questions are this: In the field of accounting is your opinion that a degree is more important than experience or vice versa? I am planning an interstate move soon and need to decide if I would be better served to go back to school for that "piece of paper" (that was tongue-in-cheek, please forgive me) or stick to my guns and hope that my past experience and references will help me land a job that is challenging and rewarding (financially and otherwise). Becky

Response:

Question:

What a sweet reply.  I mean the part about the "greatest kid in the world". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My ex pays$275.00 each for my daughters. He must work in a car wash. I pay $800 for ONE daughter. The way I look at it, it only costs me $800 to have the greatest kid in the world. Pretty good deal. songoman

Response:

Get a spine.  Make those people respect you and treat you with R-E-S-P-E-C-T.  Show them that you, too, can upset their lives.  It’s time to start flexing your muscles instead of acting like a spineless slug.  If they can dish it out to you, you can dish it right back.  No more nice lady crap.  This is the real world.  Take what you deserve because no-one is going to get it for you.  In fact, take more than you deserve because you are way over-due.  Don’t stand for their nonsense, start flexing your muscles.  Give them as hard a time as they are giving you.  And, no more sobbing in the bedroom.  You have one life to lead.  Embrace it and start stomping.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi all, I have been divorced for about a year. My ex and I did our own divorce, with joint residential custody for our 10 year old son, to alternate each week. Our divorce was final 2/98. In October ‘98, he and his fiance asked if Matthew (son) could stay there full time,with my visitation once a week on Wednesdays, and every other weekend. At the time it seemed like a good idea, Matthew was having lots of problems at school, he’s ADD., and the stability seemed to be needed of sleeping in the same place every night. I agreed to pay $100.00 a month toward my son’s expenses at his Dad’s and we pretty much settled everything peacefully between the two of us, didn’t have the parenting plan amended–just an informal agreement. Now I am having problems with my ex and his soon to be wife. They don’t answer the phone,refuse to use an answering machine, don’t advise me of upcoming school functions, and now they have blocked my emails from being received. It’s basically hit or miss getting ahold of them to talk to my son or communicate between the two households. To make matters more complicated, now my son’s counselor and teacher have both advised sending him to a program such as Sylvan Learning Center, and my ex wants me to pay half when I already pay "unofficial" child support. I have just my income, they have his, plus her worker’s comp disability, and her babysitting money (daycare that she does out of their house). Don’t get me wrong. I love my son more than anything. It reduces me to a sobbing mess when I can’t get ahold of him, when he’s too "busy" with the neighborhood kids to come over and be with me. This really isn’t so much a money issue as it is that I think he’s really screwing me over with this "friendly agreement." Has anyone else been thru this–if so, any advise. Thanks much, Suzzanne

Response:

Suzzanne, your story is so typical of an NCP dad.  All the issues and feelings and isolation are the same.  The advice for you is the same for them; you’ve got to move on with your *own* life and focus on the new life more than your past one.  Yea, you can do some court games and muddle things for a while, but the judge won’t change things too much "in the best interests of the child" and you’ll probably find yourself having to pay much more CS, too, if you cause trouble.  Your core issue is lacking a life right now that fulfills the voids your old life did.  Your job is to build than new life.   – John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I have been divorced for about a year. My ex and I did our own divorce, with joint residential custody for our 10 year old son, to alternate each week. Our divorce was final 2/98. In October ‘98, he and his fiance asked if Matthew (son) could stay there full time,with my visitation once a week on Wednesdays, and every other weekend. At the time it seemed like a good idea, Matthew was having lots of problems at school, he’s ADD., and the stability seemed to be needed of sleeping in the same place every night. I agreed to pay $100.00 a month toward my son’s expenses at his Dad’s and we pretty much settled everything peacefully between the two of us, didn’t have the parenting plan amended–just an informal agreement. Now I am having problems with my ex and his soon to be wife. They don’t answer the phone,refuse to use an answering machine, don’t advise me of upcoming school functions, and now they have blocked my emails from being received. It’s basically hit or miss getting ahold of them to talk to my son or communicate between the two households. To make matters more complicated, now my son’s counselor and teacher have both advised sending him to a program such as Sylvan Learning Center, and my ex wants me to pay half when I already pay "unofficial" child support. I have just my income, they have his, plus her worker’s comp disability, and her babysitting money (daycare that she does out of their house). Don’t get me wrong. I love my son more than anything. It reduces me to a sobbing mess when I can’t get ahold of him, when he’s too "busy" with the neighborhood kids to come over and be with me. This really isn’t so much a money issue as it is that I think he’s really screwing me over with this "friendly agreement." Has anyone else been thru this–if so, any advise. Thanks much, Suzzanne

Response:

My ex pays$275.00 each for my daughters. He must work in a car wash. I pay $800 for ONE daughter. The way I look at it, it only costs me $800 to have the greatest kid in the world. Pretty good deal. songoman

Response:

To make matters more complicated, now my son’s counselor and teacher have both advised sending him to a program such as Sylvan Learning Center, and my ex wants me to pay half when I already pay "unofficial" child support. I have just my income, they have his, plus her worker’s comp disability, and her babysitting money (daycare that she does out of their house).

Well, you have two issues here, it would seem. (Disclaimer: I AIN’T a lawyer, and obviously not an English major/teacher either!) Financial/ child support and visitation/access to your son. First, the financial. $100/month/child seems to be a pretty low amount for CS. To be asked to pay for half of the extra tutoring your son seems to need doesn’t seem like too much to ask for. I DO want to mention your accounting of the finances involved though. Why is it that you seem to think that your ex’s income should matter in this? Both of your son’s parents’ have an income and, IMO, that should be the only thing that matters. Any other income in the house really shouldn’t be a matter to be considered when it comes to income. Would you like it too much if you got married or a man moved in with you and your ex said ‘Well, now you can give us $400/month’? IMO, it’s the parents’ responsibility to support their children, not the stepparents’. As far as the visitation and access goes, you already have an ‘official’ parenting plan/visitation/custody schedule in place. Just because there has been a mutual agreement to change it really makes little difference. You could probably present it to your ex in this manner: ‘I thought that changing the living arrangements would be better for all of us, but now that I’m being left out of our son’s life, we need to discuss the custody again. You can either make sure that I’m kept informed with what’s going on at school and I can talk to our son and see him when I’m supposed to, or we can go back to the official plan or, if I have to take it to court, I’ll see about getting full custody.’ You should probably talk to a lawyer and find out where you stand on this. Good luck

Response:

I would contact a lawyer and see where you stand.  We can offer opinions but as far as legal advice, the lawyer is who you need right now.  Good Luck to you and to your son! Daisy Visit the ASD "Who’s Who" Web page at: http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Cape/6475/ To include yourself send picture and brief biography to:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi all, I have been divorced for about a year. My ex and I did our own divorce, with joint residential custody for our 10 year old son, to alternate each week. Our divorce was final 2/98. In October ‘98, he and his fiance asked if Matthew (son) could stay there full time,with my visitation once a week on Wednesdays, and every other weekend. At the time it seemed like a good idea, Matthew was having lots of problems at school, he’s ADD., and the stability seemed to be needed of sleeping in the same place every night. I agreed to pay $100.00 a month toward my son’s expenses at his Dad’s and we pretty much settled everything peacefully between the two of us, didn’t have the parenting plan amended–just an informal agreement. Now I am having problems with my ex and his soon to be wife. They don’t answer the phone,refuse to use an answering machine, don’t advise me of upcoming school functions, and now they have blocked my emails from being received. It’s basically hit or miss getting ahold of them to talk to my son or communicate between the two households. To make matters more complicated, now my son’s counselor and teacher have both advised sending him to a program such as Sylvan Learning Center, and my ex wants me to pay half when I already pay "unofficial" child support. I have just my income, they have his, plus her worker’s comp disability, and her babysitting money (daycare that she does out of their house). Don’t get me wrong. I love my son more than anything. It reduces me to a sobbing mess when I can’t get ahold of him, when he’s too "busy" with the neighborhood kids to come over and be with me. This really isn’t so much a money issue as it is that I think he’s really screwing me over with this "friendly agreement." Has anyone else been thru this–if so, any advise. Thanks much, Suzzanne

Response:

I do not want to seem uncaring to your situation….BUT $100.00 a month is very good for YOU, My ex pays$275.00 each for my daughters. I realize that  this informal agreement seemed like a good idea at the time, BUT the issue is NOT about the MONEY, it is about rights. If you want more, then either Stick to your Legal agreement and go back to the schedule that you both got originally OR get a lawyer and amend your agreement to something that is suitable to what you would like. I suspect though he will try to fight this. Do you want more visitation? What is the most important issue here? Visitation? Money? If you want to be more involved in your childs school activities then I suggest YOU do something about it and not expect to be told from you ex when they are scheduled. Call the teacher and ask. BE an ACTIVE parent in the classroom……. There are alternatives. Make it clear with your ex that YOU are being flexible, and unless he would like to go to court to amend the agreement, then please respect you as a parent, return your phone calls and maybe set up a schedule as to when you will call, on a daily basis or every other day. Don’t play the victim and you are less likely to be one. DO something about the things YOU have control over…..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I have been divorced for about a year. My ex and I did our own divorce, with joint residential custody for our 10 year old son, to alternate each week. Our divorce was final 2/98. In October ‘98, he and his fiance asked if Matthew (son) could stay there full time,with my visitation once a week on Wednesdays, and every other weekend. At the time it seemed like a good idea, Matthew was having lots of problems at school, he’s ADD., and the stability seemed to be needed of sleeping in the same place every night. I agreed to pay $100.00 a month toward my son’s expenses at his Dad’s and we pretty much settled everything peacefully between the two of us, didn’t have the parenting plan amended–just an informal agreement. Now I am having problems with my ex and his soon to be wife. They don’t answer the phone,refuse to use an answering machine, don’t advise me of upcoming school functions, and now they have blocked my emails from being received. It’s basically hit or miss getting ahold of them to talk to my son or communicate between the two households. To make matters more complicated, now my son’s counselor and teacher have both advised sending him to a program such as Sylvan Learning Center, and my ex wants me to pay half when I already pay "unofficial" child support. I have just my income, they have his, plus her worker’s comp disability, and her babysitting money (daycare that she does out of their house). Don’t get me wrong. I love my son more than anything. It reduces me to a sobbing mess when I can’t get ahold of him, when he’s too "busy" with the neighborhood kids to come over and be with me. This really isn’t so much a money issue as it is that I think he’s really screwing me over with this "friendly agreement." Has anyone else been thru this–if so, any advise. Thanks much, Suzzanne

Response:

I already pay "unofficial" child support. I have just my income, they have his, plus her worker’s comp disability, and her babysitting money (daycare that she does out of their house).

hmmmm.. interesting….  Disability AND day care?   I wonder what kind of disability would enable a person to collect worker’s comp and ALSO to do daycare (which is essentially conducting a home business)?   Where ARE those hidden cameras?? I wonder how she got licensed for daycare in the first place, being disabled and collecting compensation…  hmmmm… Just some thoughts i want to throw out there…. Don’t get me wrong. I love my son more than anything. It reduces me to a sobbing mess when I can’t get ahold of him, when he’s too "busy" with the neighborhood kids to come over and be with me.

I can relate to your pain there… The "empty nest syndrome" hitting just too darned early..  i especially miss mine at their bedtime when i would be kissing them goodnight or telling a story…  and before/after school time, when they are running around excited and busy with so much to say… Picking them up on certain days and going somewhere just isn’t the same as "hanging out" with them during everyday usual activities…   I hope things can work out for you to spend more time with your child…

Response:

Hi all, I have been divorced for about a year. My ex and I did our own divorce, with joint residential custody for our 10 year old son, to alternate each week. Our divorce was final 2/98. In October ‘98, he and his fiance asked if Matthew (son) could stay there full time,with my visitation once a week on Wednesdays, and every other weekend. At the time it seemed like a good idea, Matthew was having lots of problems at school, he’s ADD., and the stability seemed to be needed of sleeping in the same place every night. I agreed to pay $100.00 a month toward my son’s expenses at his Dad’s and we pretty much settled everything peacefully between the two of us, didn’t have the parenting plan amended–just an informal agreement. Now I am having problems with my ex and his soon to be wife. They don’t answer the phone,refuse to use an answering machine, don’t advise me of upcoming school functions, and now they have blocked my emails from being received. It’s basically hit or miss getting ahold of them to talk to my son or communicate between the two households. To make matters more complicated, now my son’s counselor and teacher have both advised sending him to a program such as Sylvan Learning Center, and my ex wants me to pay half when I already pay "unofficial" child support. I have just my income, they have his, plus her worker’s comp disability, and her babysitting money (daycare that she does out of their house). Don’t get me wrong. I love my son more than anything. It reduces me to a sobbing mess when I can’t get ahold of him, when he’s too "busy" with the neighborhood kids to come over and be with me. This really isn’t so much a money issue as it is that I think he’s really screwing me over with this "friendly agreement." Has anyone else been thru this–if so, any advise. Thanks much, Suzzanne

Response:

Question:

I am not defending insurance companies, but they have to assess the risk before calculating a premium.   That’s a nice pipe dream, but not how insurance companies determine auto insurance premiums.  The algorithm is, "How much can we get away with?" dave ( currently consulting for the largest underwriter of personal auto insurance… aka ‘behind enemy lines’ ) — David Hillman                       ( 1991 Alfa Romeo 164L. AROC, NMA )

Well David… As since you are "begind the enemy lines" Why dont u sneak in a nice low amount a certain Scot would have to pay for a certain 300zx : -Scot

Response:

I am not defending insurance companies, but they have to assess the risk before calculating a premium.

   That’s a nice pipe dream, but not how insurance companies determine auto insurance premiums.  The algorithm is, "How much can we get away with?" dave ( currently consulting for the largest underwriter of personal auto insurance… aka ‘behind enemy lines’ ) — David Hillman                           ( 1991 Alfa Romeo 164L. AROC, NMA )    

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok.. I will admit.. I am young… (21) in college, but I also work.. have a damn good job.. and am responsable.. (esp when driving) I want a 300zx.. Probably lease it.. if I get it.. I test drove a 95.. and I love it.. I would be paying 3306 per year on it.. Anyone out there wanna give me advice as on where to turn to get better insurance at a better cost? (that was with geico.. the WORST insurance company EVER.. ) Thanks.. Scot – Ducati 900ssscr and maybe a 300zx soon? PS – Dont flame the geico comment.. if you like geico.. fine.. stay with them.. I am not interested any any more comments… Just wait till you get ***1*** speeding ticket and drop you.. * NOTE * I am 21, In college as I said, Have a job about 30 miles from me .. I work 3 days a week.. have 1 roomate.. no points, no accidents.. Those were some of the questions that geico asked.. none of them make sence to me as what they have to do with insurance.. but oh well..

Actually, the questions they ask do make sense – it is called "underwriting". The insurer has to know all the facts before assessing the level of risk in "underwriting" your car and your yourself. Why would an insurer ask you if you work? So they know how far of a commute it is between work and home – longer commutes may mean greater risk of accidents, which may mean higher premiums.  Age is obvious, as is the number accidents, claims and tickets. The roomate question is in regard to who has access to the car – regardless if they have permission to drive the car. I am not defending insurance companies, but they have to assess the risk before calculating a premium. Why not pickup the yellow pages and call or visit at least 10 agents/brokers and get quotes from them. It pays to shop around. My wife and I had quotes ranging from $1200 to $1800 per year on our new Sunfire. As you see, we saved $600. Force the companies to give you their preferred rate. Because my wife is under 25 several companies tried to con us by saying that she should be the primary driver of the car and me, age 28, the secondary driver, thus accounting for the above $1800 quote. I don’t think so. The company I did sign with (Co-operators – In Canada) rated me as 90% and my wife as 10% in terms of driving time, thus, saving us some big bucks, since my record has been clean over the past 6 years. — Yours truly, Adam Szymczak, BA               Master of Arts in Geography (Urban Planning)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ok.. I will admit.. I am young… (21) in college, but I also work.. have a damn good job.. and am responsable.. (esp when driving) I want a 300zx.. Probably lease it.. if I get it.. I test drove a 95.. and I love it.. I would be paying 3306 per year on it.. Anyone out there wanna give me advice as on where to turn to get better insurance at a better cost? (that was with geico.. the WORST insurance company EVER.. ) Scot – Ducati 900ssscr and maybe a 300zx soon? PS – Dont flame the geico comment.. if you like geico.. fine.. stay with them.. I am not interested any any more comments… Just wait till you get ***1*** speeding ticket and drop you..

Scot, With the combined factors of your age and the price & sportiness of a 300ZX, I think you’re destined to pay a lot.  I have a ‘91 300ZX and pay $700/yr, but I’m quite a bit older than you.  Since at least ‘91 the cars have been changed very little, so you might want to look for a clean one a few years old – cheaper and lower insurance. I use GM’s insurance company, Motors Insurance, since I work for a GM subsidiary.  You can call them at 800-642-6464; I’m not sure if they cover non-GM cars for non-employees.  If you have a military connection, USAA is said to have very low rates. You’re quite right about GEICO – they are the antichrist of insurance companies.  They are rabidly anti-speed: they will not insure sport motorcycles, and if you are foolish enough to admit to owning a radar detector, they refuse to insure you.  I believe they also donate radar equipment to police units. —   Dave Hartner    ’90 ZX-11     AMA   360353                                 DoD   1702                                   NMA   109938                                   PftAW 299453  

Response:

Ok.. I will admit.. I am young… (21) in college, but I also work.. have a damn good job.. and am responsable.. (esp when driving) I want a 300zx.. Probably lease it.. if I get it.. I test drove a 95.. and I love it.. I would be paying 3306 per year on it.. Anyone out there wanna give me advice as on where to turn to get better insurance at a better cost? (that was with geico.. the WORST insurance company EVER.. ) Thanks.. Scot – Ducati 900ssscr and maybe a 300zx soon? PS – Dont flame the geico comment.. if you like geico.. fine.. stay with them.. I am not interested any any more comments… Just wait till you get ***1*** speeding ticket and drop you.. * NOTE * I am 21, In college as I said, Have a job about 30 miles from me .. I work 3 days a week.. have 1 roomate.. no points, no accidents.. Those were some of the questions that geico asked.. none of them make sence to me as what they have to do with insurance.. but oh well..

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