Question:

I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. The payment has been pending for 9 days! The buyer has even sent me a picture of his credit card statement showing Western Union took payment within a few hours of him requesting the money order. Obviously Im not shipping the goods until I get payment but why is this payment taking so long to approve? Also why has Western Union failed to respond to ANY of the 5 seperate e mails I have sent them about this? Is there a specific problem or are they just useless?? Larry

Response:

I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. The payment has been pending for 9 days! The buyer has even sent me a picture of his credit card statement showing Western Union took payment within a few hours of him requesting the money order.

I’m guessing this is AuctionPayments.com, formerly known as BidPay? While nobody seems to have discovered what’s going on, there have been similar reports on this service for the past couple of weeks; it may not be coincidence that they’re changing names right now (meaning they may be changing more than names). Is there a specific problem or are they just useless??

They used to be useful, and one hopes they will be again.  It’s a monumentally stupid way to usher in a newly titled service, that’s for sure. — Deborah Stevenson [eliminate OBSTACLES to email me]

Response:

I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. Larry

No he is not. Western Union payment is a sure sign you have been scammed. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. The payment has been pending for 9 days! <snip Also why has Western Union failed to respond to ANY of the 5 seperate e mails I have sent them about this?

My experience is telephoning is much faster than email for resolving these types of problems, and often there are toll free numbers you can use. There is a list of numbers for various types of help on the right hand side of the webpage at: https://wumt.westernunion.com/asp/orderStatus.asp // Ralph

Response:

I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. Larry No he is not. Western Union payment is a sure sign you have been scammed. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster

And getting an answer by Don Lancaster is a sure sign you’ll likely get a wildly bizarre theory not based on fact or even reality.

Response:

I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. Larry No he is not. Western Union payment is a sure sign you have been scammed.

Not if you’re getting paid by them. Paying someone with them is another matter.

Response:

I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. Larry No he is not. Western Union payment is a sure sign you have been scammed. Not if you’re getting paid by them. Paying someone with them is another matter.

No, there is actually a big Western Union component in some of the scams of electronics sellers.  I’m just not clear if we’re talking Western Union proper or The Service Formerly Known as Bidpay. — Deborah Stevenson [eliminate OBSTACLES to email me]

Response:

Please explain how someone paying you via Western Union is a scam.  If you have the money then you ship the item.  How can they scam you?  I am not trying to disagree with you or imply that you don’t know what you are talking about it’s just that I don’t see where the scam is. I can see how a buyer can get scammed using WU but that same thing can happen if the buyer pays via check or money order as well. Thanks.  I am a new seller and I want to make sure I understand how people can get over on me.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. Larry No he is not. Western Union payment is a sure sign you have been scammed. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. The payment has been pending for 9 days! The buyer has even sent me a picture of his credit card statement showing Western Union took payment within a few hours of him requesting the money order. Obviously Im not shipping the goods until I get payment but why is this payment taking so long to approve? Also why has Western Union failed to respond to ANY of the 5 seperate e mails I have sent them about this? Is there a specific problem or are they just useless?? Larry

Larry,      There is a toll free number available, another kindly user gave it to me last week.  I had the same problem, fixed very quickly. Email me for the number if you like.  Danny.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please explain how someone paying you via Western Union is a scam.  If you have the money then you ship the item.  How can they scam you?  I am not trying to disagree with you or imply that you don’t know what you are talking about it’s just that I don’t see where the scam is. I can see how a buyer can get scammed using WU but that same thing can happen if the buyer pays via check or money order as well. Thanks.  I am a new seller and I want to make sure I understand how people can get over on me. I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. Larry No he is not. Western Union payment is a sure sign you have been scammed. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

There are several red flag words that IMMEDIATELY tell you to RUN away from an eBay transaction. Such as "rumania", "laptop", "plasma", or "western union". — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

I created a BidPay MO for a seller on Dec 1.  The new Western Union Auction Payments still hasn’t processed.  I’ll bet they’re waiting for new check stock with the new letterhead.  Or they discovered an Enron accounting problem.  AFAIK nothing has been processed for December. As I said before everyone is waiting for their unemployment Christmas present.  I wished they would put something on their website if nothing more "Please be patient". Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a buyer who is paying me by Western Union. The payment has been pending for 9 days! The buyer has even sent me a picture of his credit card statement showing Western Union took payment within a few hours of him requesting the money order. Obviously Im not shipping the goods until I get payment but why is this payment taking so long to approve? Also why has Western Union failed to respond to ANY of the 5 seperate e mails I have sent them about this? Is there a specific problem or are they just useless?? Larry

Response:

Thanks.  I am a new seller and I want to make sure I understand how people can get over on me.

I prefer WU, especially on any large-ticket item.  I walk into the supermarket with a number and my ID, I walk out with pictures of Dead Presidents, I pay no discounts or percentages, can’t be charged back, don’t need to worry about a stolen card, can’t have my account frozen by PP, and in general take no more risk than if someone walked in and handed me cash.

Response:

There are several red flag words that IMMEDIATELY tell you to RUN away from an eBay transaction. Such as "rumania", "laptop", "plasma", or "western union".

That’s half right and all wrong. Granted, if a seller in the US claims he can give you a great deal on a plasma TV or laptoy if you wire him money by WU to Romania, then you probably should make a quick stop for some KY jelly, because you’ll be needing it. I’ve taken money from Greece, France, Italy, Latvia, Germany and Russia, all by WU, and cash from Singapore, and never had a bit of trouble with the transactions. The problem is not the WU or the wire, but the way the deal is being structured.  You MUST trust the person the money is being wired to, as my customers trusted me. — Divide by Cucumber Error. Reinstall Universe and reboot  - Hex – Hogfather – Terry Pratchett

Response:

Okay for the record it took 20 days to process the MO.  I guess that was the time it took to move computers to new offices and fire people. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I created a BidPay MO for a seller on Dec 1.  The new Western Union Auction Payments still hasn’t processed.  I’ll bet they’re waiting for new check stock with the new letterhead.  Or they discovered an Enron accounting problem.  AFAIK nothing has been processed for December. As I said before everyone is waiting for their unemployment Christmas present.  I wished they would put something on their website if nothing more "Please be patient". Jim

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do I record a double entry increase in equity to my rental property value fixed asset account based on current housing market conditions?  Using Quickbooks. Create an account in your equity section called something like "FMV Adjustment", or "Mark to Market", then record a journal entry that will Debit (increase) the Fixed asset account and Credit (also an increase) the FMV Adjustment account. I would recommend using a contra asset account called allowance for mark to market, rather than debiting the fixed asset account. The statments should disclose the fact that the property is being reported at fair market value. I believe that you will find that mark-to-market applies only to tax treatment for security traders as well as commodities dealers and traders. It has nothing at all to do with the valuation of real estate. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

 I was answering the question that was asked, which was "How do I do this?"  Others in the thread had already answered questions that weren’t asked. Bill Lentz, CPA, M. S. Accounting

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do I record a double entry increase in equity to my rental property value fixed asset account based on current housing market conditions?  Using Quickbooks. Create an account in your equity section called something like "FMV Adjustment", or "Mark to Market", then record a journal entry that will Debit (increase) the Fixed asset account and Credit (also an increase) the FMV Adjustment account. I would recommend using a contra asset account called allowance for mark to market, rather than debiting the fixed asset account. The statments should disclose the fact that the property is being reported at fair market value. I believe that you will find that mark-to-market applies only to tax treatment for security traders as well as commodities dealers and traders. It has nothing at all to do with the valuation of real estate. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation  I was answering the question that was asked, which was "How do I do this?"  Others in the thread had already answered questions that weren’t asked. Bill Lentz, CPA, M. S. Accounting

From the answer you gave, it appears that you are telling the original poster who asked the question, that it is proper to make such an adjustment to the fair market value of real estate. It is not in compliance with generally accepted accounting principles to do this, though, as you know. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do I record a double entry increase in equity to my rental property value fixed asset account based on current housing market conditions?  Using Quickbooks. Create an account in your equity section called something like "FMV Adjustment", or "Mark to Market", then record a journal entry that will Debit (increase) the Fixed asset account and Credit (also an increase) the FMV Adjustment account. I would recommend using a contra asset account called allowance for mark to market, rather than debiting the fixed asset account. The statments should disclose the fact that the property is being reported at fair market value. I believe that you will find that mark-to-market applies only to tax treatment for security traders as well as commodities dealers and traders. It has nothing at all to do with the valuation of real estate.

I agree after seeing this post. However I still would use some type of contra account rather than debiting the asset account. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do I record a double entry increase in equity to my rental property value fixed asset account based on current housing market conditions?  Using Quickbooks. Create an account in your equity section called something like "FMV Adjustment", or "Mark to Market", then record a journal entry that will Debit (increase) the Fixed asset account and Credit (also an increase) the FMV Adjustment account. I would recommend using a contra asset account called allowance for mark to market, rather than debiting the fixed asset account. The statments should disclose the fact that the property is being reported at fair market value. I believe that you will find that mark-to-market applies only to tax treatment for security traders as well as commodities dealers and traders. It has nothing at all to do with the valuation of real estate. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation  I was answering the question that was asked, which was "How do I do this?"  Others in the thread had already answered questions that weren’t asked. Bill Lentz, CPA, M. S. Accounting From the answer you gave, it appears that you are telling the original poster who asked the question, that it is proper to make such an adjustment to the fair market value of real estate. It is not in compliance with generally accepted accounting principles to do this, though, as you know. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

I’m not sure I agree that my answer implied that it was proper, but I probably should have added a reference to the other responses or a disclaimer that writing up assets is generally not done, and that if he was giving the FS to a third party he should appropriately disclose any such adjustments.  And, as you know, many users find (appropriately supported) fair market value on real estate to be a useful financial statement presentation. But I do think that too often we accountants tend to answer questions with "You can’t do that." rather than try and find out what the individual is trying to do and helping them do it. Bill

Response:

The bottom line is, who/whatever is your perceived market target, you’re still interested in selling your product…nothing wrong w/that, but it’s not a usenet function….

Response:

"selling a dubious M2M web service"? You have got to be kidding, but how could you – you do not even know what you are talking about. First of all STEP FORWARD is  … (see below). We are not interested in "selling it" in the normal sense; however, we are interested in making the accounting profession aware of STEP FORWARD so that professional accountants who have the ability to think logically and who have the desire to provide custom software solutions to their employers or clients will consider it as a possible tool. We realize, of course, that the majority of accountants, especially those in public practice, are focused on other aspects of the profession (e.g. Taxation, Audit, etc.). The very notion of being able to get involved in business reengineering and developing applications for clients that are not only specific to their needs but even to  management’s personal style has never occured to them, because up to now it was extremely costly andthe private preserve of the "big" accounting firms. Furthermore, if they do get involved in "software", they usually tend to have picked a singular of-the-shelf package (one-size-fits-all, now you got to be kidding) that they are comfortable with and their approach is tentamount to saying "here is the solution, what’s your problem?". However, all of this can change in the hands of the right people with STEP FORWARD. (And GAAP-compliance is in the hands of the configurator – specific to the jurisdiction in which they operate.) So the people that we are looking for are the real rare "nuggets" – professional accountants and consultants who have a fire burning in their cuts to help their clients pursue their visions, achieve their dreams, without creating a nightmare. These may be people who already are involved in providing this type of professional service or those who would like to expand their professional services. Once found, we will work with them to achieve their objectives. —– This should be of interest to all Accountants who have a need for custom-software that they themselves can configure without writing a single line of code because no formal programming skills are required. Gestalt Corporation announces the release of STEP FORWARD – a multi-platform development framework for database-centric accounting and general information management applications. STEP FORWARD is a graphical tool to create relational databases, GUIs for SQL-based data input/output, executable flowcharts that control data input, reports and processes. It can create GAAP-compliant accounting systems with automatic transaction generation and other functionalities. STEP FORWARD includes a graphical Report Generator and its client/server version ("Navigator") allows publishing reports over the Web. The framework can be expanded by including user-developed code, and currently supports MS SQL Server 2000, Sybase, Mimer and McKoi RDBMS. Runs on Windows NT/2000/XP and Red Hat Linux v9. You can learn more about STEP FORWARD, view video clips, documentation and download the Explorer demo, a Tutorial, and a "Private Records" suite of applications – all of them free at www.gestalt.com. If you have any further questions or comments, please contact us by telephone or through our Contact page at www.gestalt.com. Wolfgang Rochow, CGA Gestalt Corporation Calgary, AB, Canada Tel: 403-252-3282

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lifestyle Accounting may be more practical, but it does not comply with generally accepted accounting principles as they exist in the United States. Accountants are bound to comply or stand the chance of losing their license. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation I think "Wolfgang Rochow" was more interested in selling a dubious M2M web service than in correctly answering the question! " http://www.gestalt.com/ Our Vision To be the Pilot to Captains of Enterprise, guiding them to achieve their dreams. Using STEP FORWARD to Help Make Your Dreams a Reality Gestalt will train your people, work with and guide you in defining your Vision and your Dreams, assist you in developing the business logic and processes that will help you in this quest, through Catalytic Mentoring T. Our Passion is People, Our Strength is Systems, the result is Performance Beyond Perceived Potential T Following through on this thread only proves that "there is no accounting for accountants." Let’s be practical. Assume that I bought a house 30 years ago for $30,000, it’s paid for in full, and it has a current market value of $300,000. Let’s further assume that I decide to obtain a new mortgage to use the proceeds for whatever purpose. What do you think the banker will do? Use my original cost or the current market value in determining the maximum size of the mortgage Obviously, the market value (assuming that I have the ability to repay)? Look at the presentation proposed in Lifestyle Accounting (available free of charge as part of "Private Records" on www.gestalt.com . Here the actual acquisition is carried on the Balance Sheet at cost; however, the Increase in Market Value in shown as a separate account immediately after the cost item, and the offset account is shown as a separate entry in the Equity section as "Increase of Real Estate Market Value over Cost". While a footnote might have technically conveyed the same message, using the visual impact of two valuation accounts registers on the brain much more effectively. And adequate disclosure is not compromised. Go figure. Wolfgang Rochow, CGA Calgary, AB, Canada (iforsyth) How do I record a double entry increase in equity to my rental property value fixed asset account based on current housing market conditions?  Using Quickbooks. Create an account in your equity section called something like "FMV Adjustment", or "Mark to Market", then record a journal entry that will Debit (increase) the Fixed asset account and Credit (also an increase) the FMV Adjustment account. I would recommend using a contra asset account called allowance for mark to market, rather than debiting the fixed asset account. The statments should disclose the fact that the property is being reported at fair market value. I believe that you will find that mark-to-market applies only to tax treatment for security traders as well as commodities dealers and traders. It has nothing at all to do with the valuation of real estate. I agree after seeing this post. However I still would use some type of contra account rather than debiting the asset account. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation A contra account by definition is an account that is deducted from something. This being true, I don’t see how this could work even if it were in compliance with generally accepted accounting principles-which it is not. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation A contra account can go both ways. If the asset account is to be reported at fair market value then for control purposes it is advisable to record any change in the valuation though the use of an account other than the one used for historical cost. If the term contra seems to contra then I sugest a brother or sister account. Would you please for all of us, tell us what all the contra accounts are by name in financial statement presentation? I don’t think you will find ANY that adds to ANY account. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. But I do think that too often we accountants tend to answer questions with "You can’t do that." rather than try and find out what the individual is trying to do and helping them do it. Isn’t that precisely what got a bunch of fairly prominent accountants/firms (and their clients) into real trouble recently??? I don’t think my responses rise to the level of Enron – …and I don’t (and hope I didn’t infer directly) either–just struck me as a significant point to be made that "the customer isn’t <always right" is a worthwhile reminder in these times….again, I was meaning it in a more general sense than as a <direct response to this particular instance–

Since my field is now retail (accounting), I can tell you that the customer is seldom right (grin), but we allways tell them that they are. I left public accounting before the "customer is always right" attitude became so prevalent, but I could certainly see it heading that way.  The last client that i was on was a large international entity that had some significant reporting issues that required direct consultation with the SEC several times, and they were pretty much inclined to toe the line.  Accordingly, we didn’t face a lot of the pressure that many other s faced. Bill

Response:

Lifestyle Accounting may be more practical, but it does not comply with generally accepted accounting principles as they exist in the United States. Accountants are bound to comply or stand the chance of losing their license. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

I think "Wolfgang Rochow" was more interested in selling a dubious M2M web service than in correctly answering the question! " http://www.gestalt.com/ Our Vision To be the Pilot to Captains of Enterprise, guiding them to achieve their dreams. Using STEP FORWARD to Help Make Your Dreams a Reality Gestalt will train your people, work with and guide you in defining your Vision and your Dreams, assist you in developing the business logic and processes that will help you in this quest, through Catalytic Mentoring

Question:

Hello Taylor, I am so sorry.  I’m sorry about your son, I’m sorry about your regrets.  I’m sorry that you feel you have no one. We’re with you, but cannot be there with you. When we’re teens (I remember) everything is black or white.  No greys.  As your son matures and possibly becomes a father himself, he’ll see your heated words in a new light.  He too will probably have regrets.  You lost him, but he also lost you and will lose the chance that some of us have, later in life, to make up for lost time and make peace with our past.  To get to know each other as we really are and find new commonalities and new reasons to love and respect. Thank you for asking someone to notify us.  I will not forget you.  I’ve not forgotten anyone who’s posted over the years.  They’re all in my heart, though some of the details sometimes blur.  If same person would agree, could you not write a letter to your son?  Even if it could not be forwarded right now, perhaps someday he’ll receive it and it will be his last memory of you.  Make it a peace offering of love and reconciliation.  If you do, include your posting addy and the newsgroup name, so he can go back in the (Google) archives, if he so wishes, and relive your final days with you. If you are able, please continue to post. We care.  ( ( ( ( Taylor ) ) ) ) J PS Please try to find someone (hospice, palliative, nurse, pastor or other) to discuss issues that I’ll be posting in a separate post. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was never a prolific contributor here, just now and then. The lung metastases from my thigh sarcoma are now growing so aggressively that it is only a matter of weeks perhaps less. I regret the time lost on radiotherapy as I could have done much with that, but I had a few very good weeks before a lung collapse where all was revealed via the x-ray That which saddens me most is that my son now 16. He knows I am dying and will not contact. We hardly got to know one another, he being on one side of the Atlantic most of his life and me on the other. We had some heated words and he shut me down. I probably deserved this and since regretted every day (I have no one else in the world). The pain I have been through with cancer is nothing compared to that of losing him. I am secretly hoping he might pass through here every so often or just by accident. Well that is it. Thank you for all the kind and positive words of support here in the group. I asked someone to notify here when it is over. Taylor

Response:

I’m in Vancouver for 4-5 days maybe I’ll get to see the island or even Roy and Marina but I wouldn’t know them except by the cactus thorns in the fingers or those expanding bracelet type things that accountants use to hold their shirt sleeves back and the pencil marks on his permanently pursed lips!!! MIKE

Mike, if you can get to the Island I’d love to show you around our lovely new Cancer Centre

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Especially southern Vancouver Island around chemainus and Ladysmith . patty-anne Or Sidney here on the peninsula     Do you know Roy and Marina Welham? He’s an accountant and she’s a cactus nut….     CAT

No, but then I’m a carnivorous plant nut!

Response:

Especially southern Vancouver Island around chemainus and Ladysmith . patty-anne Or Sidney here on the peninsula

    Do you know Roy and Marina Welham? He’s an accountant and she’s a cactus nut….     CAT

Response:

I’m in Vancouver for 4-5 days maybe I’ll get to see the island or even Roy and Marina but I wouldn’t know them except by the cactus thorns in the fingers or those expanding bracelet type things that accountants use to hold their shirt sleeves back and the pencil marks on his permanently pursed lips!!! MIKE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Especially southern Vancouver Island around chemainus and Ladysmith . patty-anne Or Sidney here on the peninsula     Do you know Roy and Marina Welham? He’s an accountant and she’s a cactus nut….     CAT

Response:

Vancouver, where I lived 1966-1970, and BC, still have the image of paradise to me.

Absolutely ! Years ago, my brother said "how could you leave here?" Wish I hadn’t. J

Response:

Nothing to do with cancer but Vancouver just came out top in a survey on which cities are the best to live in. My current home, Perth Australia came second because (I think) it gets a bit hot in the summer. Anyway I intend visiting Vancouver next march to see some friends so I’ll let you know if ‘they’ are right. MIKE

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Vancouver, where I lived 1966-1970, and BC, still have the image of paradise to me. Absolutely ! Years ago, my brother said "how could you leave here?" Wish I hadn’t. J

Response:

Nothing to do with cancer but Vancouver just came out top in a survey on which cities are the best to live in. My current home, Perth Australia came second because (I think) it gets a bit hot in the summer. Anyway I intend visiting Vancouver next march to see some friends so I’ll let you know if ‘they’ are right. MIKE

Vancouver is OK, but all the people in the know prefer it over here on Vancouver Island.!

Response:

Especially southern Vancouver Island around chemainus and Ladysmith . patty-anne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nothing to do with cancer but Vancouver just came out top in a survey on which cities are the best to live in. My current home, Perth Australia came second because (I think) it gets a bit hot in the summer. Anyway I intend visiting Vancouver next march to see some friends so I’ll let you know if ‘they’ are right. MIKE Vancouver is OK, but all the people in the know prefer it over here on Vancouver Island.!

Response:

Especially southern Vancouver Island around chemainus and Ladysmith . patty-anne

Or Sidney here on the peninsula

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Especially southern Vancouver Island around chemainus and Ladysmith . patty-anne Or Sidney here on the peninsula

The area around Parksville is lovely, too. Michele – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Taylor Dying is like going to sleep after a hard days work. You wake up all refreshed and whatever problems you had look a lot less. Your son will carry on and may or may not have regrets. This will influence the rest of his life as every interraction does and will shape the kind of person he becomes. If he has regrets this will make him more sensitive and caring in the future ; if he has no regrets then nothing you could say or do will make any difference to him in the future. We are the sum not of our experiences but of how we deal with our experiences . Go in peace MIKE

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was never a prolific contributor here, just now and then. The lung metastases from my thigh sarcoma are now growing so aggressively that it is only a matter of weeks perhaps less. I regret the time lost on radiotherapy as I could have done much with that, but I had a few very good weeks before a lung collapse where all was revealed via the x-ray That which saddens me most is that my son now 16. He knows I am dying and will not contact. We hardly got to know one another, he being on one side of the Atlantic most of his life and me on the other. We had some heated words and he shut me down. I probably deserved this and since regretted every day (I have no one else in the world). The pain I have been through with cancer is nothing compared to that of losing him. I am secretly hoping he might pass through here every so often or just by accident. Well that is it. Thank you for all the kind and positive words of support here in the group. I asked someone to notify here when it is over. Taylor

Response:

Please Taylor , write him a letter. Tell him of your unconditional love. no guilt trips. Tell him of the things that have been special in your life. Things you hope for his future. Remenis. Even some good stuff about when you and his mom were close. Leave out any bad stuff. This is the most important love letter of your life. Good luck. You will most likey meet my dear husband soon as he is preparing to cross the bridge. He will be the one walking slowly, he will be waiting for me to catch up. Blessings to you. patty-anne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was never a prolific contributor here, just now and then.

Response:

So sorry Patty-Anne, Did you at least manage to get that trip? J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please Taylor , write him a letter. Tell him of your unconditional love. no guilt trips. Tell him of the things that have been special in your life. Things you hope for his future. Remenis. Even some good stuff about when you and his mom were close. Leave out any bad stuff. This is the most important love letter of your life. Good luck. You will most likey meet my dear husband soon as he is preparing to cross the bridge. He will be the one walking slowly, he will be waiting for me to catch up. Blessings to you. patty-anne I was never a prolific contributor here, just now and then.

Response:

Hi J. No we have not taken the trip yet, but we have a week break from Chemo coming up in a couple of weeks. One of the fellows Jim works with has a 6 passenger plane and has offered to fly us up. We will just fly over the Princess Louisa Inlet, if we make it. If not, it is something we can plan and talk about. Every day seems to be different so we have to play it by ear as to what we do. Still trying to find a bit of pleasure in each day. patty-anne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So sorry Patty-Anne, Did you at least manage to get that trip? J

Response:

Patty-anne, oh, to slip the surly bonds of earth, and dance the skies on laughter-silvered wings, sunward climb, and join the tumbling mirth over beautiful British Columbia. (credit to John Gillespie Magee, Jr.) …put out your hands (to the windows/skies), and touch the face of God. I wish it for you… J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi J. No we have not taken the trip yet, but we have a week break from Chemo coming up in a couple of weeks. One of the fellows Jim works with has a 6 passenger plane and has offered to fly us up. We will just fly over the Princess Louisa Inlet, if we make it. If not, it is something we can plan and talk about. Every day seems to be different so we have to play it by ear as to what we do. Still trying to find a bit of pleasure in each day.

Response:

How strange you should quote "High flight". Jim has requested that one of our cadets read it at his funeral. We are both involved with an air cadet squadron. Jim has co ran the flying scholarship program for 5 years and they have helped our cadets earn 11 pilots licences. Jim found he had diabetes when he went for his pilot medical and managed to get his license, only to lose it when he became insulin dependant. Instead of resenting being grounded, he shared his knowledge and love of flight with these young people. Thanks for sharing that J . And indeed, when one flies over BC , One knows God created it. Norske Ca, whom Jim worked for, flew us to Vancouver for his last appointment with a specials. The colour and scenery were magnificent. I took my camera and got some memories. patty-anne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Patty-anne, oh, to slip the surly bonds of earth, and dance the skies on laughter-silvered wings, sunward climb, and join the tumbling mirth over beautiful British Columbia. (credit to John Gillespie Magee, Jr.) …put out your hands (to the windows/skies), and touch the face of God. I wish it for you… J

Response:

It’s one of my favs (as is BC) and it came to mind when I was outside thinking about  you mentioning taking the trip in a 6 passenger plane.   BC Scenery, I’ll say !  Breath-takingingly beautiful. I went outside and watched the clouds, thought about you and Jim and the flight, thought of the poem (and Jonathan Livingstone Seagull for perhaps silly reason), shed some tears and came back in and posted it for you both. (and me too) You both have much to be proud of. Let us know if you go.  I’ll go outside and wave from SW Ontario. Hugs J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How strange you should quote "High flight". Jim has requested that one of our cadets read it at his funeral. We are both involved with an air cadet squadron. Jim has co ran the flying scholarship program for 5 years and they have helped our cadets earn 11 pilots licences. Jim found he had diabetes when he went for his pilot medical and managed to get his license, only to lose it when he became insulin dependant. Instead of resenting being grounded, he shared his knowledge and love of flight with these young people. Thanks for sharing that J . And indeed, when one flies over BC , One knows God created it. Norske Ca, whom Jim worked for, flew us to Vancouver for his last appointment with a specials. The colour and scenery were magnificent. I took my camera and got some memories. patty-anne Patty-anne, oh, to slip the surly bonds of earth, and dance the skies on laughter-silvered wings, sunward climb, and join the tumbling mirth over beautiful British Columbia. (credit to John Gillespie Magee, Jr.) …put out your hands (to the windows/skies), and touch the face of God. I wish it for you… J

Response:

It’s one of my favs (as is BC) and it came to mind when I was outside thinking about  you mentioning taking the trip in a 6 passenger plane.   BC Scenery, I’ll say !  Breath-takingingly beautiful. I went outside and watched the clouds, thought about you and Jim and the flight, thought of the poem (and Jonathan Livingstone Seagull for perhaps silly reason), shed some tears and came back in and posted it for you both. (and me too) You both have much to be proud of. Let us know if you go.  I’ll go outside and wave from SW Ontario. Hugs J

Vancouver, where I lived 1966-1970, and BC, still have the image of paradise to me. Rian

Response:

Write to your son, one day he will need to read what you have written as much as you need to speak to him now.  If necessary write it down, print it out multiple times and leave the copies with someone you trust to keep them until he is ready to read it.  16 is young to deal with the realities of death, and it’s perminance, but he will one day regret if he doesn’t contact you, and without your letter will hurt forever.  Do what you can for him, forgive him, blame yourself, tell him how much you have always loved him.  Don’t worry too much about how it reads, write from the heart, what you wrote here is a good place to start!! My thoughts prayers are with you. Harri T. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was never a prolific contributor here, just now and then. The lung metastases from my thigh sarcoma are now growing so aggressively that it is only a matter of weeks perhaps less. I regret the time lost on radiotherapy as I could have done much with that, but I had a few very good weeks before a lung collapse where all was revealed via the x-ray That which saddens me most is that my son now 16. He knows I am dying and will not contact. We hardly got to know one another, he being on one side of the Atlantic most of his life and me on the other. We had some heated words and he shut me down. I probably deserved this and since regretted every day (I have no one else in the world). The pain I have been through with cancer is nothing compared to that of losing him. I am secretly hoping he might pass through here every so often or just by accident. Well that is it. Thank you for all the kind and positive words of support here in the group. I asked someone to notify here when it is over. Taylor

Response:

One great being, when asked by a dying person how to prepare, said: "Die a little every day." If the person is comfortable with this idea, talk about some of the different ways we have of letting go. We can let go of our good and bad memories of our early life. We can let go memories of people we rarely see. We can let go our memories of places we are unlikely to see again, or unfulfilled desires. This can be done very slowly

Question:

I often talk to myself.  So I’ll answer my own question in case anybody else is interested in the subject. Denver Tax Software got interested in the Bardahl formula and researched it sufficiently to write a program that applies it and watches over your shoulder for possible troubles.  It will be on sale at their Web site shortly: http://www.denvertax.com In short, the Bardahl formula is for calculating necessary amounts of working capital and such in order to argue against, for example, the IRS claiming a corp. has excess earned income on the books (and related kinds of balance sheet entries). Franklynn Peterson, Editor CPA Computer Report newsletter http://www.cpacomputerreport.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re looking for software or text that explains how to properly execute the Bardahl formula (named after a corporation that argued, successfully, that it did not have excess undistributed earnings).  We’ve searched the Inet, book sites, accounting software and research services…. Thanks! Franklynn Peterson, Editor CPA Computer Report newsletter http://www.cpacomputerreport.com

Response:

We’re looking for software or text that explains how to properly execute the Bardahl formula (named after a corporation that argued, successfully, that it did not have excess undistributed earnings).  We’ve searched the Inet, book sites, accounting software and research services…. Thanks! Franklynn Peterson, Editor CPA Computer Report newsletter http://www.cpacomputerreport.com

Response:

Question:

When I ran off to LA in 1988, I stopped at the Federal Building at 11000 Santa Monica Blvd. and they set it up that I could pick up my check there for Novemeber 1988 while I looked for housing & lived in my car. They explained that SSI checks don’t go to P.O. Boxes but to real addresses. Maybe the rules have changed in this age of mandatory Direct Deposit, but even that is chancy when the bank doesn’t want your money anymore because of delinquency or minimum balance requirements that take up 1/4 of your asset limit!!

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> SSI & SSDI checks can’t be delivered to nowhere

What is cost of mailbox at private post office? Mailboxes-R-Us type of places. Must be cheaper than gouger-landlords. I lived in garage under apt. for three years while putting life back together after ‘nam. Rented mailbox in storefront. Showered at the "Y" whenever I needed to. Bought day-old foods and used hot plate to cook on. Filled bottles for water and used 24-hour market around corner for toilet/wash needs. ’tain’t ritzy but worked. I think some have too-high expectations or tunnel vision where survival is concerned.

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————————————————————————— —– October 24, 2002 Looking Glass on Earnings Just Got Darker By FLOYD NORRIS Just how little is American industry making? The Standard & Poor’s Corporation will release today its calculations of "core earnings," as it defines them. That definition, which is subject to dispute, will make most companies look far worse than they have appeared. The core earnings for the companies in the S.& P. 500 came to $18.48, S.& P. says, according to a copy of the announcement provided yesterday. That compares with operating earnings – the number Wall Street generally prefers to emphasize – of $41.58. And it compares with as-reported profits of $26.74. Based on the value of the S.& P. of 989.52 at the end of the second quarter, the index was trading at a multiple of 54 times core earnings, a figure that has since declined to 47. By contrast, those using the operating income numbers see the multiple as 24 at the end of June, and 21 now. There are three principal differences between the operating numbers and the new core numbers:

Question:

Blake, in case you do decide to stop taking Xanax, just remember not to stop it cold turkey.  Taper it down ridiculously slowly in order to avoid rebound anxiety.  It doesn’t matter what you might be using to replace it; taper off of it very, very slowly.  Just thought I’d mention this since I haven’t seen it in any of the replies to you yet.  It’s a fundamental rule of benzo discontinuance. –Frel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He said I could continue with my Buspar 30mgs a day but to stop taking Xanax.

Response:

the apa has done a few very nice studies using zoloft and klonopin with high marks

Is this information available online?  I would love to show my pdoc. Matt

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Hi, Blake, I don’t know much about the meds but just wanted to send my support to you. Hope the meds are good for you!  Keep us posted… smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everone,I kept my first appointment with the Pschiatrist yesterday, BOY was he different I thought I was Screwed up. Anyway he really did know his stuff he was just full of himself my Counsler told me he was like that but he really knows his meds for people with anxiety disorder and panic disorder. He said I could continue with my Buspar 30mgs a day but to stop taking Xanax. He gave me a starter perscription of Zoloft 25mgs to 50mgs for 21 days. Aren`t these two drugs Buspar and Zoloft the same kind of SSRI`s? Geezzzzzz, I`m scared to take the Zoloft because of the side effects,anyone know if these two work well togeather? Or tried this combination with any sucess? Ya, I`m just a Chicken I need to just start on it and maybe feel better that I have in years!!!!!!! After all he`s the DR. Any input would be appreciated….Blake. My own worst enemy still.  

Response:

Glad you got to see a pdoc.  I agree with everyone else that when you start the Zoloft, start low, and don’t rush it.  I take Zoloft and find it works well for me.  Keep the xanax to help you with the side effects of going onto the Zoloft.   Wishing you success! Take care, Liz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everone,I kept my first appointment with the Pschiatrist yesterday, BOY was he different I thought I was Screwed up. Anyway he really did know his stuff he was just full of himself my Counsler told me he was like that but he really knows his meds for people with anxiety disorder and panic disorder. He said I could continue with my Buspar 30mgs a day but to stop taking Xanax. He gave me a starter perscription of Zoloft 25mgs to 50mgs for 21 days. Aren`t these two drugs Buspar and Zoloft the same kind of SSRI`s? Geezzzzzz, I`m scared to take the Zoloft because of the side effects,anyone know if these two work well togeather? Or tried this combination with any sucess? Ya, I`m just a Chicken I need to just start on it and maybe feel better that I have in years!!!!!!! After all he`s the DR. Any input would be appreciated….Blake. My own worst enemy still.  

– There are only two ways to live your life.   One is as though nothing is a miracle.   The other is as though everything is a miracle.                          —Albert Einstein

Response:

You have been getting lots of advise about meds, that I know nothing about. If you take a first year course in psychology in college, you have prospective teachers, accountants, businessmen. Even at that early point you can see the psych majors. 90% get into psychology to cure themselves. The good ones do it and go on to become good psychologists and psychiatrists, but they are all at least a little nuts (and a few are a lot nuts).It goes with the territory like engineers being unable to spell. Boyd — "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." (Ellen Parr- author)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everone,I kept my first appointment with the Pschiatrist yesterday, BOY was he different I thought I was Screwed up. Anyway he really did know his stuff he was just full of himself my Counsler told me he was like that but he really knows his meds for people with anxiety disorder and panic disorder. He said I could continue with my Buspar 30mgs a day but to stop taking Xanax. He gave me a starter perscription of Zoloft 25mgs to 50mgs for 21 days. Aren`t these two drugs Buspar and Zoloft the same kind of SSRI`s? Geezzzzzz, I`m scared to take the Zoloft because of the side effects,anyone know if these two work well togeather? Or tried this combination with any sucess? Ya, I`m just a Chicken I need to just start on it and maybe feel better that I have in years!!!!!!! After all he`s the DR. Any input would be appreciated….Blake. My own worst enemy still.  

Response:

Hi Blake, I am glad you got to see a pdoc, but sorry he doesn’t want to let you have a benzo to help wean on the Zoloft.  For me, the benzo has been the greatest help in aborting a panic attack, and I don’t even take as much as I am allowed to take.  Just knowing I have my Ativan with me helps keep me calm when the anxiety starts to build.  I tried Buspar last year, and didn’t stick with it long enough to notice any benefit.  One Side Effect I had with it was a slight dizziness.  When I turned my head quickly, it felt like my brain was a step behind me!  So if you do start on the Buspar, you may want to rise slowly from a sitting position in case you get dizzy.  Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi everone,I kept my first appointment with the Pschiatrist yesterday, BOY was he different I thought I was Screwed up. Anyway he really did know his stuff he was just full of himself my Counsler told me he was like that but he really knows his meds for people with anxiety disorder and panic disorder. He said I could continue with my Buspar 30mgs a day but to stop taking Xanax. He gave me a starter perscription of Zoloft 25mgs to 50mgs for 21 days. Aren`t these two drugs Buspar and Zoloft the same kind of SSRI`s? Geezzzzzz, I`m scared to take the Zoloft because of the side effects,anyone know if these two work well togeather? Or tried this combination with any sucess? Ya, I`m just a Chicken I need to just start on it and maybe feel better that I have in years!!!!!!! After all he`s the DR. Any input would be appreciated….Blake. My own worst enemy still.  

Jeannie I want to live before I die.

Response:

Hi everone,I kept my first appointment with the Pschiatrist yesterday, BOY was he different I thought I was Screwed up. Anyway he really did know his stuff he was just full of himself my Counsler told me he was like that but he really knows his meds for people with anxiety disorder and panic disorder. He said I could continue with my Buspar 30mgs a day but to stop taking Xanax. He gave me a starter perscription of Zoloft 25mgs to 50mgs for 21 days. Aren`t these two drugs Buspar and Zoloft the same kind of SSRI`s? Geezzzzzz, I`m scared to take the Zoloft because of the side effects,anyone know if these two work well togeather? Or tried this combination with any sucess? Ya, I`m just a Chicken I need to just start on it and maybe feel better that I have in years!!!!!!! After all he`s the DR. Any input would be appreciated….Blake. My own worst enemy still.  

Response:

He said I could continue with my Buspar 30mgs a day but to stop taking Xanax. Aren`t these two drugs Buspar and Zoloft the same kind of SSRI`s?

Sounds like the "Doctor" is somewhat benzophobic. If anything, you will need the xanax to wean onto the Zoloft. And no, Buspar and Zoloft are two diffrent kinds of durgs. Buspar has been used to take the place of the xanax, and as far as I know, it dosen’t work nearly as well as xanax. Why does your doctor seem to want you off xanax? It [xanax], is the first choice med for anxiety, especially when weaning onto zoloft. I think most will agree. No doubt there will be more information that you seek found here. Take care, – Kinder

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everone,I kept my first appointment with the Pschiatrist yesterday, BOY was he different I thought I was Screwed up. Anyway he really did know his stuff he was just full of himself my Counsler told me he was like that but he really knows his meds for people with anxiety disorder and panic disorder. He said I could continue with my Buspar 30mgs a day but to stop taking Xanax. He gave me a starter perscription of Zoloft 25mgs to 50mgs for 21 days. Aren`t these two drugs Buspar and Zoloft the same kind of SSRI`s? Geezzzzzz, I`m scared to take the Zoloft because of the side effects,anyone know if these two work well togeather? Or tried this combination with any sucess? Ya, I`m just a Chicken I need to just start on it and maybe feel better that I have in years!!!!!!! After all he`s the DR. Any input would be appreciated….Blake. My own worst enemy still.  

everyone else thus far is replying with my sentiments-just so that you know the apa has done a few very nice studies using zoloft and klonopin with high marks so your doc is indeed benzophobic-buspar is a drug looking for a home and may be fine for those with a general sense of unease-its manufacturer has been pushing I er mean playing up its virtues for months now-we docs don’t like to use buspar with a benzo simply because the benzo rules and one gets no discernable results from the buspar so why take it-this guy wants to use the "non addictive" med route which is ok provided he allows for the use of benzos when titrating onto an ad med and in moderation as needed. They work. Buspar does act as a weak serotonin agonist but differently then an ssri or tca drug and cannot abort a panic attack may mildly reduce a overall sense of dread but again it is a weak drug in this regard-I have not been impresed with it since it became available. I hope it works for you. zoloft is a fine sri and helps many but again it works better with any tolerated benzo-imo LM

Response:

Blake wrote…. Hi everone,I kept my first appointment with the Pschiatrist yesterday, BOY was he different I thought I was Screwed up. Anyway he really did know his stuff he was just full of himself my Counsler told me he was like that but he really knows his meds for people with anxiety disorder and panic disorder. He said I could continue with my Buspar 30mgs a day but to stop taking Xanax.

I don`t recall how much Xanax you are taking, but you aren`t suppose to stop Xanax cold turkey, you need to wean off of it slowly. He gave me a starter perscription of Zoloft 25mgs to 50mgs for 21 days. Aren`t these two drugs Buspar and Zoloft the same kind of SSRI`s? Geezzzzzz,

They are totally different meds, Zoloft is a anti-depressant while Buspar is I`m scared to take the Zoloft because of the side effects,anyone know if these two work well togeather? Or tried this combination with any sucess?

We have a few posters doing well on a anti-depressant/Buspar combo. If you are that anxious about getting on Zoloft, you could start at even a lower dose such as 12.5 mgs, increasing your dose in 12.5mgs every week. Personally, I think stopping a benzo while weaning on an anti-depressant is poor medicine. If you start feeling uncomfortable, what is causing the feelings, weaning on Zoloft or not taking Xanax anymore? It is a common is really doing you a disservice by making you stop it. Ya, I`m just a Chicken I need to just start on it and maybe feel better that I have in years!!!!!!! After all he`s the DR. Any input would be appreciated….Blake. My own worst enemy still.  

You aren`t chicken, just a med phobic which many of us are One thing about weaning on anti-depressants…..you need patience because they take up to 6-8 weeks to really work their magic and sometimes they can make you a little uncomfortable at the beginning. I remember the day I just knew Paxil was starting to work, it was a wonderful feeling, it seemed like it took forever to get to that point…….it was really only 14 days<g but it can be hard waiting for a med to work. Take care and remember we will be here for you. Jackie "Be Who You Are.. And Say What You Feel.. Because Those Who Mind Don’t Matter.. And Those That Matter Don’t Mind…"

Response:

Question:

I had only a passing interest in money laundering when an old schoolfriend was sent to prison for 8 years. However I have been unable to find much concrete info on the web that is relevant to the situation in the UK. I am also surprised that so few people know anything about it despite the impact and the amounts of money involved. The news (tv) rarly has any reporting on the subject and part from criminals I know of no one who seems even reasonbly knowledgeable on the subject….

Response:

The news (tv) rarly has any reporting on the subject and part from criminals I know of no one who seems even reasonbly knowledgeable on the subject….

Well, let’s put it this way–the whole point of money laundering is to keep the transactions out of sight, so any "well known" system for doing so would likely not be used any longer.  More to the point, only a few people really have a use for learning about money laundering: 1.  Those who are planning to do it (criminals who aren’t likely going to be broadcasting their knowledge of the same <grin) 2.  Those who are charged with catching those who try and do it (law enforcement types who don’t want to "tip their hand" about what they do and don’t know). Generally, the purpose of laundering is to take "dirty" money (earned illegally or having some other "unpleasant" attribute) and make it appear to come from a clean location or at least "break" the link to the dirty location.  It can even involve funnelling money through an otherwise legitimate appearing business so that it looks like the funds have been earned there–that is, tax evasion may not be the point (in fact, the criminals may *WANT* it taxed to help break the link).   One case that was related to me a few years ago invovled a pizza operation that was being used to launder drug money–law enforcement spent time proving that the pizza operation hadn’t purchased enough cheese and other products needed to make a pizza to have possibly sold as many pizzas as they needed to…

Response:

Most people really don’t want to know about it.

So true–and the reason why so many frauds are so simple to pull off.  But the fact is that the only people who initially have an interest in frauds are generally a) those that are going to pull one off and b) those charged with keeping frauds from happening. Of course, those who are victims of frauds normally end up with a lot more interest from that point forward…

Response:

Of course, those who are victims of frauds normally end up with a lot more interest from that point forward…

Victims, and associates of victims.  That is how I got interested in it. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The news (tv) rarly has any reporting on the subject and part from criminals I know of no one who seems even reasonbly knowledgeable on the subject…. Well, let’s put it this way–the whole point of money laundering is to keep the transactions out of sight, so any "well known" system for doing so would likely not be used any longer.  More to the point, only a few people really have a use for learning about money laundering: 1.  Those who are planning to do it (criminals who aren’t likely going to be broadcasting their knowledge of the same <grin) 2.  Those who are charged with catching those who try and do it (law enforcement types who don’t want to "tip their hand" about what they do and don’t know). Generally, the purpose of laundering is to take "dirty" money (earned illegally or having some other "unpleasant" attribute) and make it appear to come from a clean location or at least "break" the link to the dirty location.  It can even involve funnelling money through an otherwise legitimate appearing business so that it looks like the funds have been earned there–that is, tax evasion may not be the point (in fact, the criminals may *WANT* it taxed to help break the link). One case that was related to me a few years ago invovled a pizza operation that was being used to launder drug money–law enforcement spent time proving that the pizza operation hadn’t purchased enough cheese and other products needed to make a pizza to have possibly sold as many pizzas as they needed to…

There is a lot of information readily available to anyone who cares to look at it. An interesting sidebar. Much of the public thinks that CPAs look for fraud.  Unfortunately, few (at least few of the ones I know) have even a hint of a clue as to what to look for or how to look for it. As to money laundering and CPA practice. Money laundering, drug dealing and organized crime tend to go together.  It is not uncommon for a drug operation to use an otherwise legitimate business as a front. Once the money goes through the accounting process and is taxed it looks just as clean as legitimate sales.  Normally, it is only after considerable forensic effort that illicit activity can be ferreted out. In my opinion, it is exceedingly unwise for a practicing CPA to confront a client he /  she suspects of money laundering, certainly not without a lot of backup and support from law enforcement.  These people can be very dangerous. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

Money laundering often involves rich, influential people who have the wealth and power to see that things are kept quiet.  They often seem like nice, upstanding citizens on the surface, but derive a lot of their largesse from illegal activities. Peter

Response:

I had only a passing interest in money laundering when an old schoolfriend was sent to prison for 8 years. However I have been unable to find much concrete info on the web that is relevant to the situation in the UK. I am also surprised that so few people know anything about it despite the impact and the amounts of money involved. The news (tv) rarly has any reporting on the subject and part from criminals I know of no one who seems even reasonbly knowledgeable on the subject….

It appears you have lost your innocence.  Until your friend got sent up you had "only a passing interest" in money laundering.  You were entirely normal. Most people do not have friends who have been sent up and have "only a passing interest" in money laundering.  Same with fraud in general.  Most people really don’t want to know about it. The Association of Certified Fraud Examiners has published an extensive report on the status of fraud and white-collar crime in the U.S. It is called the Report to the Nation on Occupational Fraud and Abuse, and it is the largest known privately-funded study on this subject. http://cfenet.com/newsandfacts/fraudfacts/reporttothenation/ Other interesting fraud facts. http://cfenet.com/newsandfacts/fraudfacts/ — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

The Association of Certified Fraud Examiners has published an extensive report on the status of fraud and white-collar crime in the U.S. It is called the Report to the Nation on Occupational Fraud and Abuse, and it is the largest known privately-funded study on this subject. http://cfenet.com/newsandfacts/fraudfacts/reporttothenation/ Other interesting fraud facts. http://cfenet.com/newsandfacts/fraudfacts/

A virtual directory of money laundering sites.  Please note the uk address. http://info.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/scandals/launder.html One of the above referenced sites.  Very specific. http://www.worldbank.org/html/fpd/notes/48/48scott.html

Response:

The news (tv) rarly has any reporting on the subject and part from criminals I know of no one who seems even reasonbly knowledgeable on the subject…. Generally, the purpose of laundering is to take "dirty" money (earned illegally or having some other "unpleasant" attribute) and make it appear to come from a clean location One case that was related to me a few years ago invovled a pizza operation that was being used to launder drug money

The pizza connection is a famous case, but any retail concern with a lot of cash going through it and not so much check or plastic money — those are the ones to keep an eye on.  If you look at the federal regs on which businesses are NOT exempt from the $10,000 cash transaction reporting requirement, you will see a list of interesting businesses.  E.g., car dealers are NOT exempt. Another famous marker for fraud in general is a city: Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Back in the 60s and 70s it was like a magnet for all kinds of swindlers and fraud specialists to set up their phony offices.  So anytime a businessman said he was from Fort Lauderdale, many wary money men turned up their radar — or just plain laughed.  Kind of like Bill Clinton saying he did not inhale.  Perhaps Fort Lauderdale is still a magnet like that today.

Response:

Some good replys, thanks. I guess I am still surprised at the lack of interest the press and TV show. I understand billions of

Question:

(THere are some digital cash links, at bottom if you’re intersted) Robert Hettinga is perhaps the most tireless and persistent advocate of digital cash. See his http://www.philodox.com website and other accomplishments with your favorite search engine. Lately it has sunk into my consciousness that digital cash might be motivated by something besides privacy, tax avoidance, or outright laundering.. I suppose others also fall into this preconception and if you are one of them, maybe you should press onwards and look at some other aspects of it. Money can be encrypted within bearer ‘tokens’ with a variety of techniques (some blinded, some not, some requiring a book entry or server someplace, some not, etc) Pure digital cash would obviously be radically cheaper to administer than banks and bank transactions.  Businesses  might shift substantially to use the first credible digital money that emerges.   As a result, accounting software will be unnecessary. Or, it will at least become vastly different in structure. Much of the historical cause of our whole accounting software architecture (cash accounting, invoicing, later settling of Accounts Payble and Accounts Receivable in aggregates, etc.) is to be able to conduct business in spite of the ridiculously inconvenient and disruptive workflows for handling cash, writing checks, dealing by mail, going to banks with piles of checks from customers, etc. It is the nature of our money (and to a lesser extent, the paper postal system) that caused all of the whole workflows which contemporary software is designed to ease.  Go ahead– look at your software.  Bank reconciliations, invoicing, paying bills, etc. would all disappear. Everybody knows the current, labor intensive accounting will be replaced fairly soon. Electronic banking and all kinds of billing solutions will see to that. But nobody has even a hint of the complete revolution that would result in accounting software if digital cash is adopted. Many people right now are building new e-business processes on internet. The accounting aspects of these new websites and business models, at least in the small business market, are fairly primitive.  They usually have "accounting" mechanisms merely for closing sales, charging credit cards etc.  But the best of these systems reflect a new paradigm, in which one or another form of transaction now lives in repositories at a central point visible on internet rather than in any one company’s server. You see it in SCM and shared project or manufacturing or time/billing systems. By keeping the data structures for the Supply Chain on a shared server visible on internet, they eliminate whole categories of errors and differences and data redundancy in the separate systems.  Here, http:/www.e-chemicals.com, for example. But even these new-technology web-based transaction environments would go right down the toilet if DBS happened. Why would each party to the various business environments send messages to a shared server and maintain big ol’ ERP and EAI systems, when they could just remit money along with their messages, and run their whole Extranet on a point-to-point architecture?  If you receive the XML message with money embedded, you would perform the action. Otherwise, it would go into some kind of followup inquiry or something. I would love to read a thorough academic analysis of the effects DBS may have on accounting workflow. I’m beginning to realise that if you’re right, then, the current infrastructure will be dust… The interesting question is, what portions would remain and what new functions would an accounting system require… For example, why couldn’t digital cash be implemented by ERP vendors or Supply Chain providers, for internal use by corporations?  It would make an absolutely splendid accounting device. Perhaps it would be some adaptation of DBS having cargo space for a little XML message in it, containing adminsitrative or accounting data.  Looked at backwards, you might say, the DBS was embedded within the XML docs now conceived as messages by Biztalk, Rosetta, CBL and all the rest. Can you imagine how much simpler the accounting and administrative systems could become?  Especially within relatively closed systems like vertical industries. Whew.  You could go live with this in a period of months.  The cash could spill out of the supply chain and become a new sort of currency!   * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML accounting, web ledger, ASP, GL Dialtone, whatever. https://www.e-gold.com/ http://www.cybercash.com/ http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/20014.html http://www.millicent.digital.com/ http://www.ipin.com/ http://www.echarge.com/ http://www.hrl.il.ibm.com/ http://www.erights.org/ http://www.ecashtechnologies.com/ http://www.surety.com/ http://cryptome.org/hiding-db.htm http://www.votehere.net/ http://www.law.sc.edu/sclr/WINN.HTM http://www.shipwright.com/ http://www.nabletech.com/ http://www.ibuc.com/ https://www.cypherpunks.to/ http://www.integrion.com/ http://www.checkfree.com/ http://www.ofx.net/ofx/default.asp http://www.arcot.com/tech.html http://www.cyberbanking-law.lu/ http://iang.org/free_banking/ http://ecoin.net/mmdh/ http://www.birches.org/dgwb/articles.html

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All accountants should be at least superficially aware that patented, battle-tested technology exists, which enables the encryption of digital money which is impossible to crack, completely anonymous and untraceable, and redeemable for cash by the issuer on demand. The existence of this technology creates a pensive, almost apprehensive environment in the global banking system if not the entire legal system. The only thing standing between the regulated money systems of today, and a completely unregulated internet money system, is the fact that no bank or institution of repute has issued digital cash.  isn’t that amazing? How long this current "limbo" will last is a matter of some speculation, but I believe sometime during the next recession, when push comes to shove, one or another global corporation will issue digital cash and the world will never be the same. Transaction costs will drop to nearly zero.  Great economic benefits will result from that.  Trade will flow across borders.  National governments will have a fit.  Drug money and completely illegal money will flow unrestrained, whether derived from theft or kidnapping, during this phase.  Many believe that law enforcement will redouble their energies in other ways, and eventually learn to track the movements of digital money to some extent. Below, enjoy a typical message on the DBS mailing list; 5 or 10 of these go by every day… too bad you missed the eleven followups to this debate, and the new threads it spawned, within 2 days. PS.  I’m not a big fan of anonymous digital cash. I’m a webledger guy. I believe that the raw essential of a transaction is a meeting of minds between two parties, and accordingly, the source file for all accounting transactions belongs on a host, on the internet, visible to the two parties. I eschew Quickbooks and all other LanLedgers and DesktopLedgers, as private, unreconciled, unreliable, unconnected, and always wrong. Digital cash is an interesting technology—  these DBS guys disdain my ideas. To them, I am a typical, tedious advocate for "book entry" systems.  They want to fly, like the eagle. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML accounting, web ledger, ASP, GL Dialtone, whatever. — begin forwarded text I wouldn’t say ecash has to use blinding, but I would argue it would be a misuse of the word "ecash", if something which was revocable were dubbed ecash. With that definition it is not technically possible to implement electronic cash at all without tamper resistant hardware, because reliance on a mint, or double spend database means your "cash" can become worthless over night if someone (say a government) decides to switch off a computer (the one holding the double spending database). This is because the value isn’t held by the bearer, it is secret split between the mint (in it’s double spend database) and the bearer (in his token), rather than being held solely by the bearer as the token.

Consider the following system, not yet completely practical, but perhaps with some more work it could be made so.  Features:   – A "mint" is used only to create the initial allocation of ecash.     After that it is not needed.   – Complete anonymity as with Chaum ecash.   – No single point of failure, distributed public databases are used.   – No secret keys to be lost or stolen. The idea is based on a simpler version of Sander and Ta-Shma’s proposal at Crypto 99.  In this system, in addition to a spent coin list, there is an issued coin list.  The latter holds f(r,x) where x is the coin’s serial number, r is a random blinding factor, and f() is a one way function, for all coins which have been issued. When the mint creates a new coin, the user secretly chooses r and x, and send f(r,x) to the bank, which puts that value on the issued coin list. To spend/deposit the coin, the user reveals x and supplies a zero knowledge proof that he knows an r such that f(r,x) is on the issued coin list (he doesn’t reveal r or f(r,x) though).  The recipient also checks that x is not on the spent coin list.  These tests assure that the coin is valid. Furthermore, the deposit is unlinkable to the withdrawal as no information is revealed which is common to the two.  During withdrawal only f(r,x) is revealed, and during deposit only x is revealed.  This makes the system completely anonymous, giving the effect of blind signatures without blinding or signatures! The issued coin list is maintained as a hash tree and so the zero knowledge proofs of membership are (possibly, barely) feasible.  The need for potentially cumbersome ZK proofs is one of the weak points of this proposal. As stated this is still a mint based system.  Here is a new enhancement that gets the mint out of the picture. The issued and spent coin lists would not be maintained by the mint, but rather would be public databases.  A network of multiple redundant servers maintains these lists. When a merchant receives a coin, he broadcasts the ZK proof of its validity, plus the serial number x.  The latter gets added to the spent coin list.  This broadcast entitles him to create a new coin.  He does so by picking new r,x and adding f(r,x) to the issued coin list, as part of the same broadcast which updates the spent coin list. The server network monitors these broadcasts and updates the issued and spent coin lists appropriately.  Anyone who receives a coin is therefore able to immediately create a new one, by getting it added to the issued coin list. This feature, of being able to receive money and immediately create new, unrelated coins, is the enhancement that allows us to do away with the mint.  The mint is only needed to inject new coins into the system; otherwise the money supply stays constant. In practice operating the distributed coin lists may have difficulties, in the face of possible legal attacks.  Ideally clients can cross-check their database accesses against multiple servers to detect if one or more have bogus data.  In addition well-connected clients can in principle maintain their own copy of the databases by dipping into the transaction stream. More work is needed, but this approach provides the basis for a free, public, anonymous cash system with no single point of failure.  It could be a useful alternative to traditional mint based models. — end forwarded text The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "… however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." — Edward Gibbon, ‘Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire’

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Out here in Seattle area there are literally daily complaints by high-tech companies about shortage of technical talent [..] What the industry is really saying is "We have identified terrific opportunities and needs in the software market, which can make a lot of money if only we can find terrifically talented teams of programmers [..] at low wages" How is that like the accounting industry?  In our industry we say "We need staff accountants who can constantly imbibe the complex and changing tax rules and other material on their own, and apply them with a great degree of practical judgment [..] handle their own clients and billings, leaving us partners out of the equation except that we get to rake off $2 for every $3 of the billings." Spoken like a staff accountant.  The margin is more like 1 of every 4-5 dollars goes to the partners. StanB Sorry –I’m perfectly aware that CPA firms pay most of that $2 for costs rather than partner profits.  But the 2/3 ratio is pretty solid, across the industry.

—Simply not true. 50% to staff, 25-30% to overhead, and the balance to the partners.  The valuable productivity of staff only gets $1.  And the partners are the ones calling the shots, aren’t they?

–Wish it was so.  The market calls the shots.  You’re the guys who are fond of paying high rents, secretarial staff, lots of photocopies, long distance bills, inefficient PCs setup badly, etc. etc.

—Its a rare firm that doesn’t operate lean and mean.  CPA firms are notorious for overtime desk sharing and not just during tax season. Clients increasingly are more discriminating.  They want the accounting deliverables, unbundled from all that stuff.  And after years of cinching up my necktie and doing what I was told, billing the living crap out of my clients over $200 an hour for a few years there, and watching all that money wasted by the firm, I’m loving it, now.   I like the new rules. Todd

—There might be five or so firms that can bill 200 for staff. Most are damn lucky if they can get 200 for a partner. —StanB

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – here in the UK is that the Big 5 are very good at producing auditors but not commercially minded accountants who can make a difference to local owner managed businesses. Is it the same in the USA? Small to mid size firms seldom can afford big five castoffs in the states. StanB Trying to get an honest days work out of a staff from a big 5 firm, after all they’ve been through, is like trying to have a love affair with a professional hooker.  They have been hustled by one partner after another.   They’re just *much* more difficult to manipulate or to take advantage of.  They’re not going to fall in love. And they know that there are plenty of easier opportunities than working for a hardnosed bunch of local firm partners. Few business owners are up to the challenge, of forcing these thorobreds to a posture they really have to work hard.  You have to be a tough manager, and really watch them and make them work, ask questions. And you have to find a way to inspire them, to heal them from their big-5 experience. You can get your best results with good people and these are generally quite capable people. Managers of small firms will be well advised to pay *good* salaries, and work harder at managing people. Shoot you can make more money than the big firms.  You can pay *more*. Oh well, my 2 cents worth ! Todd

Salaries are derived from billing rates.  Unless a small firm is doing the IBM audit its tough to pay 45,000 for a three year person. StanB

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Has anyone given thought to where Public is going to end up after the financial services firms scoop up all the regional firms?

I suspect we’ll see, for the time being, more small firms–some of which will actually end up being created from those that leave the financial services firms <grin. Will the attest spinoffs survive?  

Long term I don’t think so.  That structure is such an obvious end run around a regulatory mechanism that, eventually, I expect we’ll either see the financial services firms simply allowed to perform attest services *OR* we’ll see the shell firms shut down.  I don’t see how you can make a valid argument for continuing the status quo–either we do or don’t require attest functions to be "unfettered" by control from non-CPAs. Will the pressure for extra dollars for the shareholders force higher fees leaving an opening for the local firm to gain market share?

The big question facing AMEX and the like is whether this strategy can be profitable in the long term.  One theory is that they use traditional public services as "loss leaders" to gain access to customers to sell other financial products.  Of course, a real problem is that we’re seeing more competitive markets in those areas, so it’s possible that they won’t be profitable enough to carry a loss leader accounting service. My own guess is that, ultimately, the accounting divisions in those firms are going to have to pull their own weight and, likely, will end up not being a threat to undercut the smaller practitioner.  In the short term, though, that may very well not be true. Will the trend of banks to no longer require CPA financial statements from their customers hurt the little firm?

We’ve been seeing that for a long time and I suspect that CPAs that only see themselves as providing compliance services will have a problem.  Of course, if you see yourself as actually giving value to the client beyond fulfilling their duty to the bank, then it isn’t as big of a problem–even better if your client sees it that way. Will the trend of less accounting grads mean less local firms springing up and therefore less competition for the local firm?

My own guess is that the trend will reverse (at the wrong time, of course <grin) and we’ll eventually see the oversupply that dominated the early 1990s.  In the short term, it’s likely a boon for those that are recent graduates and are part of the short supply of staff accountants. Will the so-called business consultant firms find less CPAs and fill the breech with MBAs?

Likely we’ll see others come in on the turf, but you still are going to need an understanding of certain concepts to perform certain functions–so there will still be demand for services that can only be performed by someone with an accounting academic background. Ed Zollars, CPA (AZ) http://www.getnet.com/~hmtzcpas

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here in the UK is that the Big 5 are very good at producing auditors but not commercially minded accountants who can make a difference to local owner managed businesses. Is it the same in the USA? Small to mid size firms seldom can afford big five castoffs in the states. StanB

Trying to get an honest days work out of a staff from a big 5 firm, after all they’ve been through, is like trying to have a love affair  with a professional hooker.  They have been hustled by one partner after another.   They’re just *much* more difficult to manipulate or to take advantage of.  They’re not going to fall in love.   And they know that there are plenty of easier opportunities than working for a hardnosed bunch of local firm partners. Few business owners are up to the challenge, of forcing these thorobreds to a posture they really have to work hard.  You have to be a tough manager, and really watch them and make them work, ask questions. And you have to find a way to inspire them, to heal them from their big-5 experience. You can get your best results with good people and these are generally quite capable people. Managers of small firms will be well advised to pay *good* salaries, and work harder at managing people. Shoot you can make more money than the big firms.  You can pay *more*. Oh well, my 2 cents worth ! Todd

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Out here in Seattle area there are literally daily complaints by high-tech companies about shortage of technical talent [..] What the industry is really saying is "We have identified terrific opportunities and needs in the software market, which can make a lot of money if only we can find terrifically talented teams of programmers [..] at low wages" How is that like the accounting industry?  In our industry we say "We need staff accountants who can constantly imbibe the complex and changing tax rules and other material on their own, and apply them with a great degree of practical judgment [..] handle their own clients and billings, leaving us partners out of the equation except that we get to rake off $2 for every $3 of the billings." Spoken like a staff accountant.  The margin is more like 1 of every 4-5 dollars goes to the partners. StanB

Sorry –I’m perfectly aware that CPA firms pay most of that $2 for costs rather than partner profits.  But the 2/3 ratio is pretty solid, across the industry.  The valuable productivity of staff only gets $1.  And the partners are the ones calling the shots, aren’t they?   You’re the guys who are fond of paying high rents, secretarial staff, lots of photocopies, long distance bills, inefficient PCs setup badly, etc. etc. Clients increasingly are more discriminating.  They want the accounting deliverables, unbundled from all that stuff.  And after years of cinching up my necktie and doing what I was told, billing the living crap out of my clients over $200 an hour for a few years there, and watching all that money wasted by the firm,   I’m loving it, now.   I like the new rules. Todd

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On Fri, 30 Oct., StanB’s rap went as follows: Has anyone given thought to where Public is going to end up after the financial services firms scoop up all the regional firms? Will the attest spinoffs survive?  Will the pressure for extra dollars for the shareholders force higher fees leaving an opening for the local firm to gain market share? Will the trend of banks to no longer require CPA financial statements from their customers hurt the little firm? Will the trend of less accounting grads mean less local firms springing up and therefore less competition for the local firm? Will the so-called business consultant firms find less CPAs and fill the breech with MBAs?

Lot of good questions in there, a dense thicket of questions. I am curious about the raw fundamental question: is there actually a declining need for highly skilled accounting services?  And what, exactly, are these "highly skilled accounting srvcs"? Some of our "highly skilled accounting services" really were an artificial phenomenon to begin with, created by unnecessary complexity in tax laws. Auditing certainly, has required much more head count because of regulatory complexity,  and think about government and municipal! The number and complexity of transactions however has NOT been artificial.  Nor has the number of entities, explosion in creation and dissolution of entities, and types of entities even in small business. Computers have enabled the business fabric to articulate human needs in ever finer and more complete models.  The economy has a more detailed mechanism today than 30 years ago, no question. Thus, our franchise is shared now.  We have shared the accounting role with computers for a long time.  Every CPA practicing today takes it for granted.   Well, now the entire computing fabric is exploding into a huge, monolithic network architecture.  Companies like Oracle say "client / server is dead" –not going to support legacy client/server stuff past the end of the year"!   Can you Our franchise is well and truly shared with communications and networking "agents" now: people using software and connectivity in various combinations that replace and do better, what was once done by carefully crafted accounting and logistics.   In past, the large-scale coordination was only possible by recordkeeping, representation, planning, budgeting, and accounting that took a lot of discipline and judgment.   Today, it is possible in a matter of days for the end consumption of every can of tuna or nylon stockings in every 7-11 be painlessly and automaticaly communicated to every supplier from mines to metal stampers to distributors.   Calling this "just in time" doesn’t really do justice to this important and farreaching trend.  There is literally no use for capital markets.   Networks make allocation  of capital more automatic now.   It is dead easy, to see what consumers want and allocate the capital to build the stuff. There is a mad, headlong dash by every accounting and vertical market and back-end vendor, to embrace the thin client, the mobile client, the web browser.  Unified messaging, you know, the list goes on. It will take a few more years, but commerce will become quite thoroughly automated.  Have you been reading about security built into the new IP standards? Security will be so solid that we won’t need to pay 3%and 5% merchant fees and use inconvenient and tedious mechanisms like credit cards and purchasing through a SSL web data entry forms. It will truly be point and click, for consumers, and yes for business-to-business purchases and selling.  Income tax returns will be on the reports menu along with financial statements, financial ratios, transaction listings, queries, everything else. All accounting software will certainly have remote access built in, or some other mechanism to enable small business to outsource bookkeeping and accounting work.   Small business will access a much wider selection of accountants and other specialists. CPAs will be remembered fondly, a quaint relic of earlier times. When small business needs a father figure they’ll talk to their father — the only reason they needed CPAs was their books were a mess, or they needed a financial statement or needed a tax return, and the very moment they don’t need us we’ll be out in the street! Todd

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t believe you guys are accountants. Small firms like ours (13 people) tend to pay out 50% to payroll, 25% to overhead, and in a good year, the partners split up to 25 %.  Naturally, if we had 13 partners we’d split 75 % but you should figure 3-5 professionals and .75 to1.5 admin staff per partner. I don’t know if that ratio is going to hold–we used to have ratios like that, but efficiencies have eliminated a lot of the "busy work" that used to tie up staff and clerical. Note that it’s not that our billings have changed (they’ve grown some even though we terminated 80 of 100 qualified plans that we used to do in the mid-1980s), but the need for multiple hands has been reduced. I would note that I’ve partnered up with other firms for various projects, making use of electronic means to "link" the firms for various projects.  That kind of "free association" is something I expect to see increase–and that will mean more "partners" and fewer staff accountants.  I know of at least three "pure" virtual accounting firms that can easily integrate themselves into another firm in the way I’m talking about. My own suspicion is that the squeeze we are seeing on the large local/regional firms is simply a sign of the lowering value of the "firm" vs. the individual accountant. Ed Zollars, CPA (AZ) http://www.getnet.com/~hmtzcpas

Yes, I agree.  In order to tempt people to stay in public I think we have to see more partners.  I wouldn’t be surprised if the local CPA firm of the future was structured more like a law firm. Has anyone given thought to where Public is going to end up after the financial services firms scoop up all the regional firms? Will the attest spinoffs survive?  Will the pressure for extra dollars for the shareholders force higher fees leaving an opening for the local firm to gain market share? Will the trend of banks to no longer require CPA financial statements from their customers hurt the little firm? Will the trend of less accounting grads mean less local firms springing up and therefore less competition for the local firm? Will the so-called business consultant firms find less CPAs and fill the breech with MBAs? StanB StanB

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I can’t believe you guys are accountants. Small firms like ours (13 people) tend to pay out 50% to payroll, 25% to overhead, and in a good year, the partners split up to 25 %.  Naturally, if we had 13 partners we’d split 75 % but you should figure 3-5 professionals and .75 to1.5 admin staff per partner.

I don’t know if that ratio is going to hold–we used to have ratios like that, but efficiencies have eliminated a lot of the "busy work" that used to tie up staff and clerical. Note that it’s not that our billings have changed (they’ve grown some even though we terminated 80 of 100 qualified plans that we used to do in the mid-1980s), but the need for multiple hands has been reduced. I would note that I’ve partnered up with other firms for various projects, making use of electronic means to "link" the firms for various projects.  That kind of "free association" is something I expect to see increase–and that will mean more "partners" and fewer staff accountants.  I know of at least three "pure" virtual accounting firms that can easily integrate themselves into another firm in the way I’m talking about. My own suspicion is that the squeeze we are seeing on the large local/regional firms is simply a sign of the lowering value of the "firm" vs. the individual accountant. Ed Zollars, CPA (AZ) http://www.getnet.com/~hmtzcpas

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The problems you are experiencing are not confined to the USA. We are finding much the same problem here in the UK. Part of the problem here is that the Big 5 are very good at producing auditors but not commercially minded accountants who can make a difference to local owner managed businesses. Is it the same in the USA?

Small to mid size firms seldom can afford big five castoffs in the states. StanB

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Ed, I agree with everything you wrote– I  fully realize the benefits my previous employers provided! However, CPA firms do charge billing rates approx. 3 times what they are paying to the employee in wages and benefits, per hour. Once trained and experienced, the CPA can realize higher income, or serve clients at lower costs, independently. The independent CPA operating from home eliminates entire categories of nonproductive expenses such as rents, employment taxes, coordination with other staff on client matters, internal matters and billing, training of newbies, and of course, partner profits.   I would also mention the cost of wardrobe <G Vendors of Tax and GAAP libraries, software etc. have scaled their products pro-rata to reach the small CPA effectively.  There is little advantage if any, to a large firm on software or libraries these days.

I can’t believe you guys are accountants. Small firms like ours (13 people) tend to pay out 50% to payroll, 25% to overhead, and in a good year, the partners split up to 25 %.  Naturally, if we had 13 partners we’d split 75 % but you should figure 3-5 professionals and .75 to1.5 admin staff per partner. StanB

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In any market, a shortage is a phenomenon, usually temporary, caused by price levels too low to inspire a sufficient demand. Out here in Seattle area there are literally daily complaints by high-tech companies about shortage of technical talent. There are regular job fairs attended by thousands of applicants, with ordinary levels of programming skills, or particular capabilities with computers.  All willing to work at reasonable wages, below $40 or even $30K. What the industry is really saying is "We have identified terrific opportunities and needs in the software market, which can make a lot of money if only we can find terrifically talented teams of programmers capable of working together, doing fantastically complex things quickly, without training or supervision—– and only if they will accept $50,000/yr. and can be laid off at short notice." How is that like the accounting industry?  In our industry we say "We need staff accountants who can constantly imbibe the complex and changing tax rules and other material on their own, and apply them with a great degree of practical judgment required to meet time deadlines, charging all thier time to customers on their timesheets.  And they have to achieve customer satisfaction on their billings, leaving us partners out of the equation except that we get to rake off $2 for every $3 of the billings."

Spoken like a staff accountant.  The margin is more like 1 of every 4-5 dollars goes to the partners. StanB

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m in Milwaukee and have been trying to find 2 staff accountants for a couple of months now.  The local paper is just packed every Sunday with ads looking for the same people I am — 4 year degree, 3 to 5 years experience. One of the big problems is that, 3 to 5 years ago, nobody was hiring anyone straight out of school.  Obviously, unless someone hired them back then, they won’t be available to hire right now as "3 to 5 years experience" individuals.  And those that are available will be able to demand a significant premium. Money is obviously an issue, though the real hitch is that the "lean years" in accounting convinced a number of students to find a different major.  The supply of staff accountants is rather tight at this moment. One obvious solution is to broaden the experience range you are looking to hire (either up or down), since that would seem to increase your ability to find someone that might be willing to work.  Either that, or get ready to work without that individual for the forseeable future. I will agree, the market is very tight.

Most of them went to computer science I suspect. Run a nice ad, its part of your marketing because youre selling the firm to candidates. Treat you’re employees like you’d want ot be treated.  Benefits, three weeks vacation from the get-go, and don’t wait for a 2000 hour backlog before you hire.  Excessive overtime just chases good people out of public accounting. StanB

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Vendors of Tax and GAAP libraries, software etc. have scaled their products pro-rata to reach the small CPA effectively.  There is little advantage if any, to a large firm on software or libraries these days.

Actually, that fact has become a major issue that I see is putting pressure on the large local/regional CPA firm. Those firms are the primary ones we see selling out to AMEX, Century Business Systems, etc. *AND* the ones I see struggling the most to keep up.  The very small firm actually operates at an advantage today, because being nimble and adaptable are key issues.  The largest firms get the advantage of economies of scale.  The mid-sized firm ends up being, at the moment, having the disadvantages of not being as nimble *and* still having a higher per professional overhead cost–in fact, perhaps the highest in the industry. Ed Zollars, CPA (AZ) http://www.getnet.com/~hmtzcpas

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Hi Ed, I agree with everything you wrote– I  fully realize the benefits my previous employers provided! However, CPA firms do charge billing rates approx. 3 times what they are paying to the employee in wages and benefits, per hour. Once trained and experienced, the CPA can realize higher income, or serve clients at lower costs, independently. The independent CPA operating from home eliminates entire categories of nonproductive expenses such as rents, employment taxes, coordination with other staff on client matters, internal matters and billing, training of newbies, and of course, partner profits.   I would also mention the cost of wardrobe <G Vendors of Tax and GAAP libraries, software etc. have scaled their products pro-rata to reach the small CPA effectively.  There is little advantage if any, to a large firm on software or libraries these days.

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The problems you are experiencing are not confined to the USA. We are finding much the same problem here in the UK. Part of the problem here is that the Big 5 are very good at producing auditors but not commercially minded accountants who can make a difference to local owner managed businesses. Is it the same in the USA?

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You bet. But they can dominate the AICPA to create scads of overhead for small firms. The problems you are experiencing are not confined to the USA. We are finding much the same problem here in the UK. Part of the problem here is that the Big 5 are very good at producing auditors but not commercially minded accountants who can make a difference to local owner managed businesses. Is it the same in the USA?

– Frederick E. Jorden http://fejcpapc.com/ Frederick E. Jorden, CPA PC (804) 320-6210 FAX (804) 320-6211

  fejcpa.vcf

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And they have to achieve customer satisfaction on their billings, leaving us partners out of the equation except that we get to rake off $2 for every $3 of the billings."

The one problem I’d point out in that theory is that, unlike many other industries, it really isn’t that difficult for an accountant, once in possession of a CPA certificate and some experience, to hang out the shingle and start taking in the full billings (along with the full expense). So, if you truly think you are losing two thirds of the earnings you generate, I would suggest it’s time to start up on your own.  When you tell me why you can’t do that, then I would suggest that the firms you are working with are providing you some value. Note that I’d *LOVE* to be netting out even two thirds of my billing rate (and so would my partners <grin).

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In any market, a shortage is a phenomenon, usually temporary, caused by price levels too low to inspire a sufficient demand. Out here in Seattle area there are literally daily complaints by high-tech companies about shortage of technical talent. There are regular job fairs attended by thousands of applicants, with ordinary levels of programming skills, or particular capabilities with computers.  All willing to work at reasonable wages, below $40 or even $30K. What the industry is really saying is "We have identified terrific opportunities and needs in the software market, which can make a lot of money if only we can find terrifically talented teams of programmers capable of working together, doing fantastically complex things quickly, without training or supervision—– and only if they will accept $50,000/yr. and can be laid off at short notice." How is that like the accounting industry?  In our industry we say "We need staff accountants who can constantly imbibe the complex and changing tax rules and other material on their own, and apply them with a great degree of practical judgment required to meet time deadlines, charging all thier time to customers on their timesheets.  And they have to achieve customer satisfaction on their billings, leaving us partners out of the equation except that we get to rake off $2 for every $3 of the billings."

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Anyway, looking back at ‘94 and ‘95, I can definitely see why there is a shortage of "3 to 5 year staff accountants."  My suggestion, for what it’s worth: Go ahead and hire 2 recent graduates.  If you take a chance, that would mean 2 more aspiring accountants would not have to go through the bumpy ride through which I suffered.  And heck…they just might surprise you!

Actually, I suspect that today (at least in Phoenix) most new graduates don’t have a problem getting employed.  First, unlike the early 1990s, accounting firms are actually expanding and not contracting.  Second, because of the scarcity of the "second job" group (which is what I consider the 3 to 5 year crowd), some of those firms that haven’t hired fresh graduates now are being forced to consider it. Note that we’ve always hired new graduates.  The problem with doing that is that you have a steep training curve for those individuals, which means that, most often, a firm doesn’t actually turn a profit on those individuals in that first year.  However, you don’t have the problem of "untraining" <grin individuals that have learned methods and habits that don’t meet the firm’s standards and, generally, I’ve found that you end up with an employee that’s likely to stick around longer. I know the job market is changing and that job hopping is supposedly now a "good thing," but it still bothers me that if I’m hiring someone at the 3 to 5 year level, it’s very likely that many of those I will talk to are likley to become just as disillusioned with my firm in a couple of years as they were with the one that initially took them on.

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The market is tight for staff accountants everywhere.  Here in Austin, TX, we have to compete with Dell.  Once of the biggest problems we have recruiting staff is that we spend a 6 months trying to find a candidate, finally hire a good staff, and 6 months later they’re pocached away by Dell. Another common problem we’ve seen with staff accountants (1-4 years) is that they all want a ton of money and think they should be managers after a year or two.  They’re so green in some cases, they have no clue how little they really know. Something to try… Hire a couple of super-qualified senior staff accountants and pay them a ton of money with great benefits and stock options.  Then, hire non-degreed clerks rather than staff accountants.  Have the seniors supervise the clerks in the "routine" work — basic reconciliations, JE’s, etc., while the seniors do the eliminations, consolidations,reporting, analysis, etc. We’ve had an easier time finding high quality seniors than we have staff. Giving seniors direct supervisory responsibility also helps them develop managerial skills so they’re actually ready to be managers rather than just thinking they’re ready. Good Luck! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m in Milwaukee and have been trying to find 2 staff accountants for a couple of months now.  The local paper is just packed every Sunday with ads looking for the same people I am — 4 year degree, 3 to 5 years experience.  The headhunters act interested at first, but seem to forget about me if they don’t have someone right away.  They are my best resource right now, having supplied me with several people. I just heard yesterday that one company several blocks away is looking to hire 15 staff accountants. The market sure is tight. What works to attract people?  Signing bonuses?  Pay?  We already have great benifits…

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I’m in Milwaukee and have been trying to find 2 staff accountants for a couple of months now.  The local paper is just packed every Sunday with ads looking for the same people I am — 4 year degree, 3 to 5 years experience.  

One of the big problems is that, 3 to 5 years ago, nobody was hiring anyone straight out of school.  Obviously, unless someone hired them back then, they won’t be available to hire right now as "3 to 5 years experience" individuals.  And those that are available will be able to demand a significant premium. Money is obviously an issue, though the real hitch is that the "lean years" in accounting convinced a number of students to find a different major.  The supply of staff accountants is rather tight at this moment. One obvious solution is to broaden the experience range you are looking to hire (either up or down), since that would seem to increase your ability to find someone that might be willing to work.  Either that, or get ready to work without that individual for the forseeable future. I will agree, the market is very tight.

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I’m in Milwaukee and have been trying to find 2 staff accountants for a couple of months now.  The local paper is just packed every Sunday with ads looking for the same people I am — 4 year degree, 3 to 5 years experience. One of the big problems is that, 3 to 5 years ago, nobody was hiring anyone straight out of school.  Obviously, unless someone hired them back then, they won’t be available to hire right now as "3 to 5 years experience" individuals.  And those that are available will be able to demand a significant premium.

<snip Absolutely right! I was one of those graduates "3 to 5 years ago," and I had a miserable time finding a job.  I have a lovely collection of rejection letters from various CPA firms, as well as several companies, in the SF Bay Area.  In fact, had my parents not been so supportive, I’m sure I would have been sleeping in the backseat of my car in some vacant lot… equipped with a 4 year degree, 4 summer vacations’ worth of experience as an accounting clerk, and the CPA exam passed. I finally did get a job at $10/hour as a Junior Accountant for some "house of cards" insurance company, but they went belly-up a year later.  Still facing a tough job market (and still having great parents!), I went to a local college for an MBA.  Now, I have a terrific job and have the pleasure of working with some trully wonderful people! Anyway, looking back at ‘94 and ‘95, I can definitely see why there is a shortage of "3 to 5 year staff accountants."  My suggestion, for what it’s worth: Go ahead and hire 2 recent graduates.  If you take a chance, that would mean 2 more aspiring accountants would not have to go through the bumpy ride through which I suffered.  And heck…they just might surprise you! Peace in the thing! -Keith

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Another major problem which may be contributing to your shortage of applicants is the reputation Milwaukee has.   Your police indifference to spousal abuse, abject discrimination, etc… has made the news — even clear up here in Alaska. I would not return to Milwaukee if you offered me $100,000 a year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m in Milwaukee and have been trying to find 2 staff accountants for a couple of months now.  The local paper is just packed every Sunday with ads looking for the same people I am — 4 year degree, 3 to 5 years experience. <snip Absolutely right! I was one of those graduates "3 to 5 years ago," and I had a miserable time finding a job.  I have a lovely collection of rejection letters from various CPA firms, as well as several companies, in the SF Bay Area.  In fact, had my parents not been so supportive, I’m sure I would have been sleeping in the backseat of my car in some vacant lot… equipped with a 4 year degree, 4 summer vacations’ worth of experience as an accounting clerk, and the CPA exam passed. <snip Anyway, looking back at ‘94 and ‘95, I can definitely see why there is a shortage of "3 to 5 year staff accountants."  My suggestion, for what it’s worth: Go ahead and hire 2 recent graduates.  If you take a chance, that would mean 2 more aspiring accountants would not have to go through the bumpy ride through which I suffered.  And heck…they just might surprise you! Peace in the thing! -Keith

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I’m in Milwaukee and have been trying to find 2 staff accountants for a couple of months now.  The local paper is just packed every Sunday with ads looking for the same people I am — 4 year degree, 3 to 5 years experience.  The headhunters act interested at first, but seem to forget about me if they don’t have someone right away.  They are my best resource right now, having supplied me with several people. I just heard yesterday that one company several blocks away is looking to hire 15 staff accountants. The market sure is tight. What works to attract people?  Signing bonuses?  Pay?  We already have great benifits…

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And the funny part is that the head hunters don’t want to talk to people from out of the area.  I am searching for a new job, and keep running into the brick wall on this side. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m in Milwaukee and have been trying to find 2 staff accountants for a couple of months now.  The local paper is just packed every Sunday with ads looking for the same people I am — 4 year degree, 3 to 5 years experience.  The headhunters act interested at first, but seem to forget about me if they don’t have someone right away.  They are my best resource right now, having supplied me with several people. I just heard yesterday that one company several blocks away is looking to hire 15 staff accountants. The market sure is tight. What works to attract people?  Signing bonuses?  Pay?  We already have great benifits…

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Question:

Hello, I’m located in Brazil. The Brazilian govenment has an incentive program for software exports. If one can write a software with a good selling potential, there will be a very generous financing of all the expenses involved in writing the SW, manuals, packaging and other related matters. Anyone have ideas about a new software need and how to market it?

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The Brazilian govenment has an incentive program for software exports. If one can write a software with a good selling potential, there will be a very generous financing of all the expenses involved in writing the SW, manuals, packaging and other related matters.

This is a great opportunity of you! The government subsidizes, you get the international partners, the partners take care of the marketing expenditures and you’re on the way to the bank! Anyone have ideas about a new software need and how to market it?

I would suggest the "home-consumer" and "SOHO" segments. There is HUGE potential for local language markets, even with Microsoft and its home and SOHO products becoming available in more languages. Consider:         Hobby- music, genealogy, stamps, cooking         Organizers, personal finance, SOHO accounting, invoicing And you can develop quality software in VB4 or Delphi quickly. Rather than just going about getting international partners, I suggest you "focus" on Portugal, thus finding a Portuguese partner. Once the products are launched in Portugal and you have capital from the sales, turn around and introduce the same programs to the Brazilian market. All you then need to do is market, market, market and you’ll have the resources to do this with. Once the Brazilian market (and Portuguese market) are under way, all you have to do is translate the software and add/change options for the different countries. So the government in its "export" push allows you to use the same products for domestic. Of course the government wins but you also win and a greater win at that. As for the marketing…that depends on the products and segments, which is better left to when you’re close to realizing this opportunity.         RFD: misc.business.moderated moderated Unofficial http://www.nijenrode.nl/mbmm/mbm.html         Proponent:            misc.business.moderated

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