Question:

John, You’ve come up with some good ideas to help you learn accounting.   I’ve found that the Dummies books are great introductory books for almost any subject, so the one on accounting probably would be useful to you.   I like your Quickbooks idea as well.  I’ve used Quickbooks to track my personal finances for years.  Just set yourself up like a business, using your bank accounts,  home, vehicles, etc. for assets, and your mortage, credit card balances, etc. for liabilities.  Key in all of your monthly written checks and credit card purchases and it’s a great tool for tracking personal finances, even though it was designed for small business. Don’t think these two things can replace studying the dry accounting book from your class though.  Learning accounting still takes a great deal of thought to let it all sink in. Good luck! Preston

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Don’t think these two things can replace studying the dry accounting book from your class though.  Learning accounting still takes a great deal of thought to let it all sink in.

Oh no…..Im not gonna give up on the class….. but I am looking for ways to help me understand it above what they are teaching in class

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – finances? Hello all. Im 46 yrs old and have started a college level elementary accounting night class. Meets 3 hrs once a week. My intent for taking this class is to slowly earn a degree…. tho not one in accounting….. but maybe a combo business and computer sciences degree. Im currently involved in computer aided design and have a very strong computer background but nothing related to business or accounting. Im also wanting to take accounting cause Ive kicked around starting a small business. Having said the above…. our text book is "Accounting" by Warren Reeve Fess. Edition 21 Tonight will be my second class an Ive got to admit this is pretty "dry" reading so far.  And the book and info in it is somewhat alien to me as Ive naturally never had any accounting before beyond using Quicken for my per finances. What Im wondering is if I should consider buying one of those "Accounting for Dummies" books to supplement the reading in my class text book? Also…. don’t laugh….. but Ive always been very good at tracking pers finances using Quicken.  Would there be some advantage to me using a true small business accounting package such as Quickbooks or PeachTree for my "personal" finances?

Not really. You could do it, but you’d be doing alot of things that are unnecessary. Personal accounting is much simpler.    Could I "pretend" that my finances are a "company" in itself and maybe help me "see" such things as "ledgers, chart of accounts, etc??

You could but it would be time wasted. Advice on how I could supplement my text book and class work anyway by above examples?   Thanks in advance…  John

Joe Bruno Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war) Ancient Roman Motto Visit my web page for pictures, music, and accounting services http://www.msnusers.com/Joepictures2008/shoebox.msnw

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John, If you are interested in learning accounting by using accounting software, I am willing to provide you with A-Systems Visual Bookkeeper for $39.95.  It includes over 40 multimedia training sessions, on the CD.  One of those sessions, Bean Counting 101, A Crash Course in Accounting, will introduce you to the processes and terminology of accounting using a visual presentation.  One of my CPA friends gave a glowing review of the course and then added, "You are dealing with a problem I have all of the time.  I don’t have the time and my clients don’t have the money for me to teach them accounting." The Small Business Advantage version comes with General Ledger, Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, Payroll (with user-definable tax tables that you can update for free), Sales Order Entry, and a built-in Contact Manager.  The software includes a wizard to assist new users in setting up their own company.  In addition, a sample company is included to play around with.  We have done everything we can to assist new users and those with minimal bookkeeping experience to get their accounting computerized. Please let me know if this is of interest to you. Arnold A-Systems Corporation (800) 365-6790 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all. Im 46 yrs old and have started a college level elementary accounting night class. Meets 3 hrs once a week. My intent for taking this class is to slowly earn a degree…. tho not one in accounting….. but maybe a combo business and computer sciences degree. Im currently involved in computer aided design and have a very strong computer background but nothing related to business or accounting. Im also wanting to take accounting cause Ive kicked around starting a small business. Having said the above…. our text book is "Accounting" by Warren Reeve Fess. Edition 21 Tonight will be my second class an Ive got to admit this is pretty "dry" reading so far.  And the book and info in it is somewhat alien to me as Ive naturally never had any accounting before beyond using Quicken for my per finances. What Im wondering is if I should consider buying one of those "Accounting for Dummies" books to supplement the reading in my class text book? Also…. don’t laugh….. but Ive always been very good at tracking pers finances using Quicken.  Would there be some advantage to me using a true small business accounting package such as Quickbooks or PeachTree for my "personal" finances?   Could I "pretend" that my finances are a "company" in itself and maybe help me "see" such things as "ledgers, chart of accounts, etc?? Advice on how I could supplement my text book and class work anyway by above examples?   Thanks in advance…  John

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John, If you are interested in learning accounting by using accounting software, I am willing to provide you with A-Systems Visual Bookkeeper for $39.95.  

Yeah it might interest me. Is $40 the final cost tho?  No hidden fees? And could I set it up to track my personal finances only and kinda "pretend" my finances are a "company? of sorts?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – finances? Tonight will be my second class an Ive got to admit this is pretty "dry" reading so far.  And the book and info in it is somewhat alien to me as Ive naturally never had any accounting before beyond using Quicken for my per finances. What Im wondering is if I should consider buying one of those "Accounting for Dummies" books to supplement the reading in my class text book? What I’ve found is that you can get all A’s in school and pass the CPA exam, but you still need to learn the business of actually doing bookkeeping/accounting in real life.  I don’t know any other way to do that but by actually having client books/papers/invoices/messes! and having to work through them and get them into the system.

Agreed. I started working for my Father, a CPA, when I was 13. I learned more in his office in 4 years than I did in 4 years of Accounting classes in college. If you’re just going to maybe one day own your own business, you shouldn’t have too much trouble setting things up then with your basic accounting knowledge since you’ll be working with your own work–not someone else’s documentation.

Joe Bruno Si vis pacem, para bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war) Ancient Roman Motto Visit my web page for pictures, music, and accounting services http://www.msnusers.com/Joepictures2008/shoebox.msnw

Response:

Hello all. Im 46 yrs old and have started a college level elementary accounting night class. Meets 3 hrs once a week. My intent for taking this class is to slowly earn a degree…. tho not one in accounting….. but maybe a combo business and computer sciences degree. Im currently involved in computer aided design and have a very strong computer background but nothing related to business or accounting. Im also wanting to take accounting cause Ive kicked around starting a small business. Having said the above…. our text book is "Accounting" by Warren Reeve Fess. Edition 21 Tonight will be my second class an Ive got to admit this is pretty "dry" reading so far.  And the book and info in it is somewhat alien to me as Ive naturally never had any accounting before beyond using Quicken for my per finances. What Im wondering is if I should consider buying one of those "Accounting for Dummies" books to supplement the reading in my class text book? Also…. don’t laugh….. but Ive always been very good at tracking pers finances using Quicken.  Would there be some advantage to me using a true small business accounting package such as Quickbooks or PeachTree for my "personal" finances?   Could I "pretend" that my finances are a "company" in itself and maybe help me "see" such things as "ledgers, chart of accounts, etc?? Advice on how I could supplement my text book and class work anyway by above examples?   Thanks in advance…  John

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Question:

Just had the first Cost Acct and Inc. Tax Accounting tests this semester. Whew — Cost was okay. I got all of the first seven problems right. Did the Cost of Goods Manufactured and Cost of Goods Sold statements, plus the income statement. Did all the journal entires (materials inventory, WIP – Inventory, Overhead control), did the overhead variance, etc. The only problems I had were the last two questions — equivalent units & the fifo method. We didn’t review it in class, and didn’t have any homework on it (just had the problems worked out for us) and I did poorly on the section. It’s a lot of remember, and my mind jumbled up. The income tax test was hilarious. Last semester i had it and the tests were open book since there’s so much to remember. This year, it’s not open book. The test was on Chapter 3 thru 7 and each chapter had 30 problems assigned for homework. So that’s 150 problems. The test was… 12 problems. It was so hard to study for because we didn’t know what would be on it — would it be hobby income vs business income? imputed interest? accrual vs cash basis? rental property? turns out I did fine on the test except the last two problems… things we didn’t even really go over in class and the teacher "rushed" through. So, im disappointed. First, the teacher cut the class from 8am – 10am to 830am to 945am. We whizz through the individual income taxes book at a "speeeeeedy" rate. Then we do about 30 problems which he goes over quickly. And then the next chapter. Ridiculous class. This guy is too old, and he’s a terrible "teacher." We did 7 chapters in 4 weeks. The tests aren’t open book. We never even see a 1040. Simply ridiculous. $20,000 a year to basically "buy the book and teach myself." — — Most recent games played: ESPN NFL Football XBOX 9.5/10 ESPN NHL Hockey XBOX 9.0/10 Starsky & Hutch XBOX 7.5/10 Otogi: Myth of Demons XBOX 7.5/10 Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg GAMECUBE 9.0/10 NHL Hitz Pro XBOX 8.5/10 Dino Crisis 3 XBOX 5.0/10 Now Playing: EA NHL 2004 XBOX

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just had the first Cost Acct and Inc. Tax Accounting tests this semester. Whew — Cost was okay. I got all of the first seven problems right. Did the Cost of Goods Manufactured and Cost of Goods Sold statements, plus the income statement. Did all the journal entires (materials inventory, WIP – Inventory, Overhead control), did the overhead variance, etc. The only problems I had were the last two questions — equivalent units & the fifo method. We didn’t review it in class, and didn’t have any homework on it (just had the problems worked out for us) and I did poorly on the section. It’s a lot of remember, and my mind jumbled up. The income tax test was hilarious. Last semester i had it and the tests were open book since there’s so much to remember. This year, it’s not open book. The test was on Chapter 3 thru 7 and each chapter had 30 problems assigned for homework. So that’s 150 problems. The test was… 12 problems. It was so hard to study for because we didn’t know what would be on it — would it be hobby income vs business income? imputed interest? accrual vs cash basis? rental property? turns out I did fine on the test except the last two problems… things we didn’t even really go over in class and the teacher "rushed" through. So, im disappointed. First, the teacher cut the class from 8am – 10am to 830am to 945am. We whizz through the individual income taxes book at a "speeeeeedy" rate. Then we do about 30 problems which he goes over quickly. And then the next chapter. Ridiculous class. This guy is too old, and he’s a terrible "teacher." We did 7 chapters in 4 weeks. The tests aren’t open book. We never even see a 1040. Simply ridiculous. $20,000 a year to basically "buy the book and teach myself."- — Most recent games played: ESPN NFL Football XBOX 9.5/10 ESPN NHL Hockey XBOX 9.0/10 Starsky & Hutch XBOX 7.5/10 Otogi: Myth of Demons XBOX 7.5/10 Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg GAMECUBE 9.0/10 NHL Hitz Pro XBOX 8.5/10 Dino Crisis 3 XBOX 5.0/10 Now Playing: EA NHL 2004 XBOX

hmm… maybe this guy has been playing too many video games, ..  but then again I complained about my son playing "GTA 3 vice city" too much

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Question:

I’m in search of an accounting package but am not sure which would be better for an ebayer. Opinions and past experiences sought. Cooking dinner, Z

Although I don’t sell on eBay, I do buy and I also run my own business. I use QuickBooks 2000 Pro. As  another poster said, it’s fairly intuitive and does export to QuickTax or in the case of the US, TurboTax.  I’ve tried Quickbooks 2001 and 2002 and find that 2000 is actually better for my needs.  I’ve also tried Simply Accounting and found it to be less intuitive, a bit harder to set up and just generally harder to use. Hope this helps some. FJS

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I’m in search of an accounting package but am not sure which would be better for an ebayer. Opinions and past experiences sought

I gues I am back in the stone age – I’ve run around 3000 auctions or so in the last 3 years — keeping my books in an old fashioned ledger with ball point pens and an adding machine.  This year, in January, it took me all of 6 hours to do the whole thing for 2001. Maybe my background in accounting/tax helps  – I also, back in the stone ages of computers, wrote a couple of general ledger programs in that ancient language COBAL.   Maybe some day I’ll shed my bear skin clothing and join the modern generation. And then again, maybe I’ll be ths last hold-out John

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I’m in search of an accounting package but am not sure which would be better for an ebayer. Opinions and past experiences sought. Cooking dinner, Z

Response:

I’ve used quick books with great success. It’s pretty intuitive and all the sole proprietor information exports to turbo tax. One Write is a little harder to get your arms around, but follows the manual system if you’ve ever used that. I hope this helps

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m in search of an accounting package but am not sure which would be better for an ebayer. Opinions and past experiences sought. Cooking dinner, Z

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Question:

Yep, I had my 1.44M floppy since ‘89, I believe..  Still have my 4X CD ROM along with my 8×8x32 burner that I bought just this year for 89 bucks after rebate!..  The extra slow CDROM keeps my CD dictionary in the tray at all times… I still have a 1.2 meg floppy disk drive *just in case*…I remember paying 318 bucks for a Matrox Millennium card with two meg RAM.. HAHAHAHA.. then I upgraded the memory with a 2 meg expansion for a total of 4 meg for an extra 130 bucks and that was a deal! I also remember paying 950 bucks for my Iiyama Vision Master 17 CRT (was the cream of the crop)..  I still have the Monitor and using it now.. I still have a *USR* (now 3COM) external Courier and that piece of equipment was my very best investment..  Got it at 28.8..  Upgraded the firmware many times..  It’s now 56.6 (yeah 53Kbps) with caller ID now. I now have two high speed services.. Cable and DSL (don’t ask why) and the Courier analog modem is mainly used as backup and caller ID..  When I’m at the ‘puter, it tells me whom is calling..  A nice pop-up screen appears.. Computers are moving way too fast..  Use to be hard to keep up, now it’s almost impossible..  Maybe I’ve been spending too much time RVing.. <g Want to buy a PII 300, and an old ASUS MB??  <g Ben PS, I’ve never had any luck with AMD.. they have always run hot and I monitor with a thermocouple…  I’ve always had overheating problems with AMD.. Always..  If you have a peltier, fine.. but I am not sold on AMD.. they are designed too close to the heat-problem-line as they have been since the AMD 486..  Been their, done that.. I look for reliability, not speed.. AMD IMHO is not reliable and operates at too high of a temp..  Been there, done that 3 times.. I’m not into trying everything to cool what should run in a case with a CPU fan and three other case fans..  If it don’t run with that on a hot summer day without A/C, it isn’t something I want..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – that’s the way I’ve done it, too. Just upgraded parts over the years. Only thing left from the original box is the 3 1/2 inch floppy drive. Even the Gateway keyboard got replaced this year. For those thinking of doing this, though, keep in mind the newer processors require a newer motherboard. Most of the newer ones are ATX form factor, which means it probably won’t fit in your old case. Nor will an older, non-ATX power supply work with these motherboards. Also be very careful to get a case with lots of fans, or add more fans, and lots of ventilation. These newer cpu’s generate a lot more heat. I notice Chris got the Duron, the motherboard, and the case and power supply. His old mb, case, and p.s. would not have been usable with the Duron or even the newer Pentium models. Sure wish I could figure out how to build a laptop, though. steve Have fun play’en with your new ‘puter.. Yep, prices are dirt cheap now..  I built my own system several years back (as I always have with my ‘puters). That was way back when the prices were a bit higher, to say the least.. PIII 600, 384M RAM, G400 Matrox Vid…   Best of all, it’s still running reliably but cost was far, far more then you paid..  Can’t justify an upgrade anytime soon… But at the price you paid, it sure is hard to resist.. <sigh Ben Sorry- this really *is* off topic, but I just spent the weekend building a new computer. I simply cannot believe how cheap component prices are now. I built an AMD Duron 850, with a Biostar motherboard (cheap, integrated sound and video), 20 gig HD (Western Digital), 256MB ram, Enlight Mid tower case, with 300 watt power supply (I used other parts from my old PC)- all for under $350 ! And… it works! Now my old PC gets to be a Linux learning center Sorry for the OT message, but I can’t believe that it works (plus, I did manage to loose some e-mails in the process- not many, but a few). — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com On RVing-RV TV about RVs, by RVers: http://www.onrving.com On RVing Forums- http://www.onrving.com/forums/default.asp

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I wonder, though, what do all these big companies do with their purchased (not leased) laptops when they get turned in for a newer model? I wonder if any of them would be willing to sell a used one. Just a thought. steve Can’t speak for "all" companies, but most seem to pass them down the corporate "food chain" until they’re basically junk or so out of date it’s ridiculous. Mark

That’s the way I got my 1600S Compaq Presario.  It only went down one step before it went out the door with my best friends daughter, who is in charge of computers.  The whole family has laptops.  It came with a nice back pack carrying case and all the cabling for on the road use.  Nice!! Tom J

Response:

that’s the way I’ve done it, too. Just upgraded parts over the years. Only thing left from the original box is the 3 1/2 inch floppy drive. Even the Gateway keyboard got replaced this year. For those thinking of doing this, though, keep in mind the newer processors require a newer motherboard. Most of the newer ones are ATX form factor, which means it probably won’t fit in your old case. Nor will an older, non-ATX power supply work with these motherboards. Also be very careful to get a case with lots of fans, or add more fans, and lots of ventilation. These newer cpu’s generate a lot more heat. I notice Chris got the Duron, the motherboard, and the case and power supply. His old mb, case, and p.s. would not have been usable with the Duron or even the newer Pentium models. Sure wish I could figure out how to build a laptop, though. steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have fun play’en with your new ‘puter.. Yep, prices are dirt cheap now..  I built my own system several years back (as I always have with my ‘puters). That was way back when the prices were a bit higher, to say the least.. PIII 600, 384M RAM, G400 Matrox Vid…   Best of all, it’s still running reliably but cost was far, far more then you paid..  Can’t justify an upgrade anytime soon… But at the price you paid, it sure is hard to resist.. <sigh Ben Sorry- this really *is* off topic, but I just spent the weekend building a new computer. I simply cannot believe how cheap component prices are now. I built an AMD Duron 850, with a Biostar motherboard (cheap, integrated sound and video), 20 gig HD (Western Digital), 256MB ram, Enlight Mid tower case, with 300 watt power supply (I used other parts from my old PC)- all for under $350 ! And… it works! Now my old PC gets to be a Linux learning center Sorry for the OT message, but I can’t believe that it works (plus, I did manage to loose some e-mails in the process- not many, but a few). — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com On RVing-RV TV about RVs, by RVers: http://www.onrving.com On RVing Forums- http://www.onrving.com/forums/default.asp

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How did you go about installing the MS operating system?  That’s a big chunk all by itself.

        I did it *legally* by removing it from my old PC, and using the Win98 Upgrade disk to do a clean install (I did have to put in my Win 3.1 Floppies to prove that I had it).         You can actually buy a license fairly cheaply- (under $20)-I understand (rumor) that a lot of these licenses are from defunct computer companies that bought them, but went out of business. They come with a number and a "COA" (Certificate Of Authenticity).         Right now, the hard drive from my old PC is in my new one, but once I know I have all the files I need off of it, I will be installing Linux (free download). — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com On RVing-RV TV about RVs, by RVers: http://www.onrving.com On RVing Forums- http://www.onrving.com/forums/default.asp  

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Unairconditioned!  Don’t know if we will stop by today and make your acquaintance or not Chris! <G  Coming down to Orlando in order to get a flight out to Seattle tomorrow.  Going out to the N/W and check out a job offer at the Bangor Subase.  Ready for a few days of cool…… Terry S.

Response:

How did you go about installing the MS operating system?  That’s a big chunk all by itself.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry- this really *is* off topic, but I just spent the weekend building a new computer. I simply cannot believe how cheap component prices are now. I built an AMD Duron 850, with a Biostar motherboard (cheap, integrated sound and video), 20 gig HD (Western Digital), 256MB ram, Enlight Mid tower case, with 300 watt power supply (I used other parts from my old PC)- all for under $350 ! And… it works! Now my old PC gets to be a Linux learning center Sorry for the OT message, but I can’t believe that it works (plus, I did manage to loose some e-mails in the process- not many, but a few). — Chris Bryant Bryant RV Services- http://www.bryantrv.com On RVing-RV TV about RVs, by RVers: http://www.onrving.com On RVing Forums- http://www.onrving.com/forums/default.asp

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..I remember paying 318 bucks for a Matrox Millennium card with two meg RAM.. HAHAHAHA..

        I still have my trusty Apple II+, which, with the specialized hardware/software that I bought with it, cost $5k (!).         Of course, it still works PS, I’ve never had any luck with AMD.. they have always run hot and I monitor with a thermocouple…  I’ve always had overheating problems with AMD.. Always..  If you have a peltier, fine.. but I am not sold on AMD.. they are designed too close to the heat-problem-line as they have been since the AMD 486..  Been their, done that.. I look for reliability, not speed.. AMD IMHO is not reliable and operates at too high of a temp..  Been there, done that 3 times.. I’m not into trying everything to cool what should run in a case with a CPU fan and three other case fans..  If it don’t run with that on a hot summer day without A/C, it isn’t something I want..

        I’ll let you know how I do- I did buy an oversized case with extra cooling, and an oversized CPU fan/heatsink. That’s also a reason I stayed at 850mhz. My poor computer sits in the unairconditioned shop, where average temps are around 90-95

Question:

Hi, Just a newbie here tonight looking at posts, but it appears that the issue of where the kids are to live came about with the simultaneous death and remarriage.  Objectively, why should there be an issue at all?  Just curious, how did dearly departed mom die?  Suspicious by nature, I guess, but how long had the new Mrs. known your ex before the wedding bells? Naturally, the age of your children indicates they can choose, but I don’t feel comfortable in putting forth such a concept to their routine living under your roof, plus their tender-age psyche in putting them through that sort of  "choosing where to live" type of thing, just because ex’s mom died and ex remarried and decides to get financially paranoid toward you. Something sounds screwy with this picture for ex to pull the late checks, etc.  To me, pulling that sort of stunt is a signal that this caring father has become not so caring … makes no difference here if the check goes to you … the money is still required for the welfare of those teenagers.  By abusing you in this money scenario, he is abusing those kids and displays he definitely is not a caring father.  Sure, when he is WITH them he’s very generous … ever heard of the Disneyland parent?  Take advantage of the deadbeat dad laws and get him back on track and quit the money games and traumatizing yourself emotionally over it.  Be true to feeling in your heart in taking into account in doing so that you really are looking at the best interest of your kids and the money is a skirt being hidden behind by your ex.  There may even be something in ex’s mom’s Will for a trust fund for these kids (a common theme … that the deceased wishes for the son/daughter to be in control of said trust(s)) that your ex doesn’t want you to know about, hence the game playing on annoying you and worrying yourself about not wanting to create flack about the lacking checks … until you relinquish custody to him, which would make him a happier camper and you more of an emotional wreck in having done so.  Wills are on public record, so you can mosey down to the courthouse and look it up and get a copy.  Go from there to find out more about assets if you really want to, but a bit of the meat of money appears to be somewhere involving your teenagers, especially in view of this money behavior in not sending you checks.  I feel sure there are assets being hidden as well.  Just relating my own past experiences not too disimilar.  Good luck. Kay

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings, Everyone! When I first started reading the posts on this forum, the weather outside was still balmy — however, my heart was frozen solid. I never thought I would have the courage to let it thaw, and allow myself to feel again. But after months of perusing the various posts here and following people’s brave resolve and valiant efforts to "press on," I’ve come to believe that I, too, can somehow find the strength to chip the protective ice off my heart. My former husband had always been a very generous and caring father. Even after the divorce, he never begrudged the children anything. He spent much time with them, and didn’t balk about his share of funds to support the children. We maintained a civil relationship. Then, his mother died and he inherited several million $$$ (he was the only child), and he also got remarried. (I do not know which came first, as the news of his mother’s death and his remarriage were revealed to me simultaneously.) Almost immediately, he began griping about the child support payments, skipping the children’s checks here and there, hemming and hawing about things like, "I don’t think [our daughter] really NEEDS braces…" Maybe he (and/or his new wife?) was worried that I’d suddenly ask for more money for the children, but the truth is that the children were being well-taken-care-of prior to his inheritance, and didn’t REQUIRE any more funding. However, they certainly didn’t require any LESS, either!!! I decided not to rock the boat — that the new wife would eventually see that I wasn’t after "their" money, so I waited patiently for him to get back on track with the payment-schedule that had been established years ago, and to which he always adhered. Well, no such luck. It was almost as if he was DARING me to keep up the stamina to have to call him periodically to broach the subject. (He KNOWS I hate talking about money, and it was always very uncomfortable for me to have to pick up the phone and say, "Um, sorry to bother you, but we haven’t received a check in the last 3 months, and [our daughter] will not be able to participate in the marching band if we don’t pay the dues and fees for the uniform/instrument/travel expenses this week!" Eventually, I felt I had no choice but to approach an attorney. I had been very reluctant to do so, but I didn’t know where else to turn! The attorney promptly researched my former husband’s assets, and guess what the dossier turned up?: except for his airplane, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! (For insurance purposes, apparently, my former husband kept the aircraft registered in his name, but EVERYTHING ELSE, he signed over either to his new wife, or tucked away in some overseas accounts.) I know there are "forensic accountants" who can supposedly locate all sorts of hidden assets, but not only do I not have the money to retain one — I also seem to have been born without the gene to motivate me to fight with anyone over money. Some might say that it’s not about money, per se, but about what is rightly due the children, and that therefore, I SHOULD fight! If he were otherwise a rotten father, I would agree, but, in all honesty, he is really a VERY GOOD FATHER . . . when the children are with HIM, that is! It’s only when they’re with ME, that he suddenly adopts this Scrooge attitude. I mean, not only is he financially generous with them when they are with him, but, being a university professor, he is also very adept at guiding them from an educational and intellectual standpoint (which I am, as well). Emotionally, however, he may actually be better-suited, in that he doesn’t "stress out" as easily as I do (but I think if I had millions of dollars, I probably wouldn’t "stress out" as much, either!). So I recently made a VERY tough decision. I decided that it might, indeed, be best for my children to live with their father. But I am still so torn about this! This decision HAS served to end the turmoil between me and my former husband, but I still feel almost "lost" without my children living under the same roof with me!!! My "higher self" does believe this is the right decision — for THEM, for my KIDS — but my heart aches almost non-stop! This is SUCH a societally non-popular decision, and I actually shudder at the thought of admitting that I made it somewhat voluntarily. (I say "somewhat," because I feel that I was, in a way, cornered into it.) I hope I’m not coming across as trying to make myself sound like some kind of "martyr." To me, it seems like I had the choice of battling for the next however-many-years in court, while my kids went without braces, missed piano lessons, been privy to legal wranglings, etc. — OR: choose to let them experience the next few years in relative peace, knowing that their needs are being met NOW. They are 15 and 17 years old, by the way. That makes ALL the difference when it comes to my motivation to pursue a big, giant investigation and fight. With college just around the corner, these children can’t afford to wait several years for a judge to render a decision on their behalf. Please don’t stone me! I’m already bruised enough as it is, believe me! May everyone here have a "New and Improved" New Year! Good health to all in 2001! Thanks for listening (for those who have endured my long-winded drivel!)! –Alexa talexa{at}evcom{dot}net

Response:

Hi, Toni! Season’s Greetings! Well, the first question I have is do the kids *want* to live with their dad?

Oh, without a question! They are happy with either — both my former husband and I have always made sure that they feel equally comfortable with each of us. I mean, think about the motivation here.  It’s really about a lifestyle to which they’ve become accustomed.

Well, with all else being rather equal, I do admit that the motivation is financial — he and I can both provide a healthy environment for them, insofar as values and morals and and ethics are concerned. But he has the "edge" when it comes to immediate fulfillment of their medical and extra-curricular needs. Yes (as I indicated previously), it’s quite likely that a judge would have eventually rendered a decision in their favor had they continued to live under my care — but what good is a "reward" in their favor at age 20, let’s say, if they need the care and consideration NOW?!?!? Dad has the means, but is the *environment* what is best for them?

Essentially, they are in equally good care, be they with him, or with me. Is this good training for them?….What’s the lesson for them?

Great question! The "lesson" (that I’m hoping they will never have to look back upon — but IF THEY DO, IT WILL BE THERE) IS: sometimes we have to surrender those whom we love to the care of others, IF — and, mind you, ONLY IF — we have thoroughly reviewed the matter and determined that it would be entirely selfish for us to "keep them." Toni, let’s face it: realistically — by the time we’d get through arguing in court, our daughters would more than likely be well into adulthood. live maybe a less profitable life with you?

As teenagers, they yearn to be autonomous — and, of course, require steady guidance. He is as good at providing that as I am. However, in addition, he is willing to provide them "perks" when they are with him — perks which he became unwilling to provide them when they are with me. (I SUSPECT this is the influence of the new wife, but I can not be certain.) Truth be told, I believe that their lives are equally profitable with each of us (again, from the spiritual and ethical point of view), but certainly enhanced — from the materialistic point of view — with him. With all else being equal, and with him having "the edge" when it comes to money, and with me having to make the choice of which is "better" for them: well, what other criteria could I have figured into this formula? It seemed that it would be pretty sexist for me to say, "Well, I’m the MOTHER, therefore I get them by default!" I don’t happen to think that way. I encourage men to cultivate their capacity for nurturing their offspring. I’m not a hypocrite who says, "Men should care more for their children," while at the same time saying, "Women are more bonded to their children, and therefore should have first dibs." Toni, I’m not asking for a cheering section. I am merely trying to present a point of view which [hopefully] illustrates that decisions such as these should not be predicated upon the the gender or desire(s) of the parent(s) — but upon that which is deemed — AFTER SERIOUS INTROSPECTION AND INVESTIGATION BY THE ADULTS INVOLED — to be in the best interest of the children. (Usually, this means not considering divorce as an option, to begin with. [Barring, of course, severe mental, emotional, and/or physical abuse.] I know that’s more than one question, but…Lots of kids don’t have many of the "things" that you speak of and many get through college without parents footing the bill.  Just some things to think about.

Oh, Toni! Don’t get me started on the subject of "things," please! I see consumerism and materialism as being the great scourge on our society and culture! If anything, it is he who is arguing about "stuff" — I am the one who has refused to do this . . . Happy, happy, happy . . . 2001 . . . to one and all! –Alexa talexa{at}evcom{dot}net

Response:

Greetings, Everyone! When I first started reading the posts on this forum, the weather outside was still balmy — however, my heart was frozen solid. I never thought I would have the courage to let it thaw, and allow myself to feel again. But after months of perusing the various posts here and following people’s brave resolve and valiant efforts to "press on," I’ve come to believe that I, too, can somehow find the strength to chip the protective ice off my heart. My former husband had always been a very generous and caring father. Even after the divorce, he never begrudged the children anything. He spent much time with them, and didn’t balk about his share of funds to support the children. We maintained a civil relationship. Then, his mother died and he inherited several million $$$ (he was the only child), and he also got remarried. (I do not know which came first, as the news of his mother’s death and his remarriage were revealed to me simultaneously.) Almost immediately, he began griping about the child support payments, skipping the children’s checks here and there, hemming and hawing about things like, "I don’t think [our daughter] really NEEDS braces…" Maybe he (and/or his new wife?) was worried that I’d suddenly ask for more money for the children, but the truth is that the children were being well-taken-care-of prior to his inheritance, and didn’t REQUIRE any more funding. However, they certainly didn’t require any LESS, either!!! I decided not to rock the boat — that the new wife would eventually see that I wasn’t after "their" money, so I waited patiently for him to get back on track with the payment-schedule that had been established years ago, and to which he always adhered. Well, no such luck. It was almost as if he was DARING me to keep up the stamina to have to call him periodically to broach the subject. (He KNOWS I hate talking about money, and it was always very uncomfortable for me to have to pick up the phone and say, "Um, sorry to bother you, but we haven’t received a check in the last 3 months, and [our daughter] will not be able to participate in the marching band if we don’t pay the dues and fees for the uniform/instrument/travel expenses this week!" Eventually, I felt I had no choice but to approach an attorney. I had been very reluctant to do so, but I didn’t know where else to turn! The attorney promptly researched my former husband’s assets, and guess what the dossier turned up?: except for his airplane, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! (For insurance purposes, apparently, my former husband kept the aircraft registered in his name, but EVERYTHING ELSE, he signed over either to his new wife, or tucked away in some overseas accounts.) I know there are "forensic accountants" who can supposedly locate all sorts of hidden assets, but not only do I not have the money to retain one — I also seem to have been born without the gene to motivate me to fight with anyone over money. Some might say that it’s not about money, per se, but about what is rightly due the children, and that therefore, I SHOULD fight! If he were otherwise a rotten father, I would agree, but, in all honesty, he is really a VERY GOOD FATHER . . . when the children are with HIM, that is! It’s only when they’re with ME, that he suddenly adopts this Scrooge attitude. I mean, not only is he financially generous with them when they are with him, but, being a university professor, he is also very adept at guiding them from an educational and intellectual standpoint (which I am, as well). Emotionally, however, he may actually be better-suited, in that he doesn’t "stress out" as easily as I do (but I think if I had millions of dollars, I probably wouldn’t "stress out" as much, either!). So I recently made a VERY tough decision. I decided that it might, indeed, be best for my children to live with their father. But I am still so torn about this! This decision HAS served to end the turmoil between me and my former husband, but I still feel almost "lost" without my children living under the same roof with me!!! My "higher self" does believe this is the right decision — for THEM, for my KIDS — but my heart aches almost non-stop! This is SUCH a societally non-popular decision, and I actually shudder at the thought of admitting that I made it somewhat voluntarily. (I say "somewhat," because I feel that I was, in a way, cornered into it.) I hope I’m not coming across as trying to make myself sound like some kind of "martyr." To me, it seems like I had the choice of battling for the next however-many-years in court, while my kids went without braces, missed piano lessons, been privy to legal wranglings, etc. — OR: choose to let them experience the next few years in relative peace, knowing that their needs are being met NOW. They are 15 and 17 years old, by the way. That makes ALL the difference when it comes to my motivation to pursue a big, giant investigation and fight. With college just around the corner, these children can’t afford to wait several years for a judge to render a decision on their behalf. Please don’t stone me! I’m already bruised enough as it is, believe me! May everyone here have a "New and Improved" New Year! Good health to all in 2001! Thanks for listening (for those who have endured my long-winded drivel!)! –Alexa talexa{at}evcom{dot}net

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -New Year’s Eve! Greetings, Everyone! When I first started reading the posts on this forum, the weather outside was still balmy — however, my heart was frozen solid. I never thought I would have the courage to let it thaw, and allow myself to feel again. But after months of perusing the various posts here and following people’s brave resolve and valiant efforts to "press on," I’ve come to believe that I, too, can somehow find the strength to chip the protective ice off my heart. My former husband had always been a very generous and caring father. Even after the divorce, he never begrudged the children anything. He spent much time with them, and didn’t balk about his share of funds to support the children. We maintained a civil relationship. Then, his mother died and he inherited several million $$$ (he was the only child), and he also got remarried. (I do not know which came first, as the news of his mother’s death and his remarriage were revealed to me simultaneously.) Almost immediately, he began griping about the child support payments, skipping the children’s checks here and there, hemming and hawing about things like, "I don’t think [our daughter] really NEEDS braces…" Maybe he (and/or his new wife?) was worried that I’d suddenly ask for more money for the children, but the truth is that the children were being well-taken-care-of prior to his inheritance, and didn’t REQUIRE any more funding. However, they certainly didn’t require any LESS, either!!! I decided not to rock the boat — that the new wife would eventually see that I wasn’t after "their" money, so I waited patiently for him to get back on track with the payment-schedule that had been established years ago, and to which he always adhered. Well, no such luck. It was almost as if he was DARING me to keep up the stamina to have to call him periodically to broach the subject. (He KNOWS I hate talking about money, and it was always very uncomfortable for me to have to pick up the phone and say, "Um, sorry to bother you, but we haven’t received a check in the last 3 months, and [our daughter] will not be able to participate in the marching band if we don’t pay the dues and fees for the uniform/instrument/travel expenses this week!" Eventually, I felt I had no choice but to approach an attorney. I had been very reluctant to do so, but I didn’t know where else to turn! The attorney promptly researched my former husband’s assets, and guess what the dossier turned up?: except for his airplane, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! (For insurance purposes, apparently, my former husband kept the aircraft registered in his name, but EVERYTHING ELSE, he signed over either to his new wife, or tucked away in some overseas accounts.) I know there are "forensic accountants" who can supposedly locate all sorts of hidden assets, but not only do I not have the money to retain one — I also seem to have been born without the gene to motivate me to fight with anyone over money. Some might say that it’s not about money, per se, but about what is rightly due the children, and that therefore, I SHOULD fight! If he were otherwise a rotten father, I would agree, but, in all honesty, he is really a VERY GOOD FATHER . . . when the children are with HIM, that is! It’s only when they’re with ME, that he suddenly adopts this Scrooge attitude. I mean, not only is he financially generous with them when they are with him, but, being a university professor, he is also very adept at guiding them from an educational and intellectual standpoint (which I am, as well). Emotionally, however, he may actually be better-suited, in that he doesn’t "stress out" as easily as I do (but I think if I had millions of dollars, I probably wouldn’t "stress out" as much, either!). So I recently made a VERY tough decision. I decided that it might, indeed, be best for my children to live with their father. But I am still so torn about this! This decision HAS served to end the turmoil between me and my former husband, but I still feel almost "lost" without my children living under the same roof with me!!! My "higher self" does believe this is the right decision — for THEM, for my KIDS — but my heart aches almost non-stop! This is SUCH a societally non-popular decision, and I actually shudder at the thought of admitting that I made it somewhat voluntarily. (I say "somewhat," because I feel that I was, in a way, cornered into it.) I hope I’m not coming across as trying to make myself sound like some kind of "martyr." To me, it seems like I had the choice of battling for the next however-many-years in court, while my kids went without braces, missed piano lessons, been privy to legal wranglings, etc. — OR: choose to let them experience the next few years in relative peace, knowing that their needs are being met NOW. They are 15 and 17 years old, by the way. That makes ALL the difference when it comes to my motivation to pursue a big, giant investigation and fight. With college just around the corner, these children can’t afford to wait several years for a judge to render a decision on their behalf. Please don’t stone me! I’m already bruised enough as it is, believe me! May everyone here have a "New and Improved" New Year! Good health to all in 2001! Thanks for listening (for those who have endured my long-winded drivel!)! –Alexa talexa{at}evcom{dot}net

Well, the first question I have is do the kids *want* to live with their dad? I mean, think about the motivation here.  It’s really about a lifestyle to which they’ve become accustomed.  Dad has the means, but is the *environment* what is best for them?  Is this good training for them?….What’s the lesson for them?  Would they rather have the things that money can provide than to live maybe a less profitable life with you?  I know that’s more than one question, but…Lots of kids don’t have many of the "things" that you speak of and many get through college without parents footing the bill.  Just some things to think about.

Response:

If you know where his mother’s estate was probated, you could get copies of the distribution reports and prove that he was hiding assets.  It shouldn’t take much, just check with the clerk of the court where she was known to reside.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings, Everyone! When I first started reading the posts on this forum, the weather outside was still balmy — however, my heart was frozen solid. I never thought I would have the courage to let it thaw, and allow myself to feel again. But after months of perusing the various posts here and following people’s brave resolve and valiant efforts to "press on," I’ve come to believe that I, too, can somehow find the strength to chip the protective ice off my heart. My former husband had always been a very generous and caring father. Even after the divorce, he never begrudged the children anything. He spent much time with them, and didn’t balk about his share of funds to support the children. We maintained a civil relationship. Then, his mother died and he inherited several million $$$ (he was the only child), and he also got remarried. (I do not know which came first, as the news of his mother’s death and his remarriage were revealed to me simultaneously.) Almost immediately, he began griping about the child support payments, skipping the children’s checks here and there, hemming and hawing about things like, "I don’t think [our daughter] really NEEDS braces…" Maybe he (and/or his new wife?) was worried that I’d suddenly ask for more money for the children, but the truth is that the children were being well-taken-care-of prior to his inheritance, and didn’t REQUIRE any more funding. However, they certainly didn’t require any LESS, either!!! I decided not to rock the boat — that the new wife would eventually see that I wasn’t after "their" money, so I waited patiently for him to get back on track with the payment-schedule that had been established years ago, and to which he always adhered. Well, no such luck. It was almost as if he was DARING me to keep up the stamina to have to call him periodically to broach the subject. (He KNOWS I hate talking about money, and it was always very uncomfortable for me to have to pick up the phone and say, "Um, sorry to bother you, but we haven’t received a check in the last 3 months, and [our daughter] will not be able to participate in the marching band if we don’t pay the dues and fees for the uniform/instrument/travel expenses this week!" Eventually, I felt I had no choice but to approach an attorney. I had been very reluctant to do so, but I didn’t know where else to turn! The attorney promptly researched my former husband’s assets, and guess what the dossier turned up?: except for his airplane, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! (For insurance purposes, apparently, my former husband kept the aircraft registered in his name, but EVERYTHING ELSE, he signed over either to his new wife, or tucked away in some overseas accounts.) I know there are "forensic accountants" who can supposedly locate all sorts of hidden assets, but not only do I not have the money to retain one — I also seem to have been born without the gene to motivate me to fight with anyone over money. Some might say that it’s not about money, per se, but about what is rightly due the children, and that therefore, I SHOULD fight! If he were otherwise a rotten father, I would agree, but, in all honesty, he is really a VERY GOOD FATHER . . . when the children are with HIM, that is! It’s only when they’re with ME, that he suddenly adopts this Scrooge attitude. I mean, not only is he financially generous with them when they are with him, but, being a university professor, he is also very adept at guiding them from an educational and intellectual standpoint (which I am, as well). Emotionally, however, he may actually be better-suited, in that he doesn’t "stress out" as easily as I do (but I think if I had millions of dollars, I probably wouldn’t "stress out" as much, either!). So I recently made a VERY tough decision. I decided that it might, indeed, be best for my children to live with their father. But I am still so torn about this! This decision HAS served to end the turmoil between me and my former husband, but I still feel almost "lost" without my children living under the same roof with me!!! My "higher self" does believe this is the right decision — for THEM, for my KIDS — but my heart aches almost non-stop! This is SUCH a societally non-popular decision, and I actually shudder at the thought of admitting that I made it somewhat voluntarily. (I say "somewhat," because I feel that I was, in a way, cornered into it.) I hope I’m not coming across as trying to make myself sound like some kind of "martyr." To me, it seems like I had the choice of battling for the next however-many-years in court, while my kids went without braces, missed piano lessons, been privy to legal wranglings, etc. — OR: choose to let them experience the next few years in relative peace, knowing that their needs are being met NOW. They are 15 and 17 years old, by the way. That makes ALL the difference when it comes to my motivation to pursue a big, giant investigation and fight. With college just around the corner, these children can’t afford to wait several years for a judge to render a decision on their behalf. Please don’t stone me! I’m already bruised enough as it is, believe me! May everyone here have a "New and Improved" New Year! Good health to all in 2001! Thanks for listening (for those who have endured my long-winded drivel!)! –Alexa talexa{at}evcom{dot}net

Response:

Question:

I am a big person 6′3" and 250 lbs plus and have had other people close to my size with me and baggage in the back. the only thing that happens in a -6 is it get a little more pitch sensitive as fuel is burned off. Jerry (flying my RV-6 almost 11 years now) Springer

Since some people fly airplanes, What is the landing gear designed to take? This can be the weakest link to flying over designed gross in numerous aircraft. Some folks commonly stress/overstress the gear enough with their poor landing technique at normal weight, qualifying them automagically as prime candidates for a collapse with any extra burden at all. BOb U.

Response:

[Van's rep] is exceptional.  Unfortunately they pissed me off big-time and they won’t be getting my cash in a hurry.  Sounds like a one off which I’m happy to acknowledge. Fair enough.  Anyone can have a bad day and it’s big of you to put it such terms.  Anything in particular you could pass along to help the next guy avoid a similar experience?

I don’t think details will be of use because its quite likely a one off, however I do have a comment which sort of relates to my experience. On the Van’s web site (http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/shipping.htm) it says… << Payment It is important to have your final payment at Van’s Aircraft no later than 15 working days prior to the scheduled shipping date From what I can see, Van’s is a closely held company and we don’t really have an idea what shape its in financially or what sort of in-house accounting practices are in place.  Its probably doing OK but people probably said the same thing about Stoddard-Hamilton before it went belly up.  Now if I was to purchase a quick-build kit and engine I’m essentially sending them $40k which is a deposit on a nice house and they want this money to have cleared and be in their account before they release the goods. I would now not be prepared to do this, and I think anybody with any sense would say the same.    I’m sure they generally ship the goods, but 14 days is plenty of time for your money to go missing through fraud, incompetance, a supplier not delivering, a bank calling in a loan, or just plain bad luck – and this is a lot of money to lose. If there is in fact some sort of escrow deal then I take it all back of course, but I see no evidence to suggest there is.  For this sort of money the funds should only be released when delivery of the product is effected. This can be when the goods are delivered to a common carrier or when the common carrier delivers the goods to the customer – this depends on the FOB. These sort of deals are done every day all over the world and often for a lot less money. Heck, I bought a $150 video card off a Internet site the other day and they only charged my credit card when it shipped.  I still don’t get the guarantee that they will actually ship the thing of course, but its a step in the right directiion. Cheers

Response:

Also, I know I can "pick" my own gross weight for normal (non-acro) flying – do most folks stick with the 1650lbs Van’s recommends or do you usually round up to 1700lbs?  

I once asked Van what criteria set the RV-4/6 gross at 1500/1600. His answer, paraphrased, was that they figured those were reasonable numbers, and they didn’t test beyond them.  If you _do_ decide to go with a higher GW, I’d recommend understanding the limitations and implications of that weight – like on takeoff, climb, abort, loads (including heavy landings), etc, and not just put down a number to fit a loadout you have in mind.  It sure sounds like there’s room there, but you/I/we oughta know where the cliffs are. If the finished airplane weights 1050, two pax (200 lbs each), 50lbs of bags, and full fuel works out to 1728 lbs.

You may well run into CG problems with this, particularly as fuel burns off. Dave ‘NzW’ Hyde RV-4 builder

Response:

Go to your flight school and watch an instructor and student go out to a 152; estimate their weight. Gross weight is about 1670. A stripped 152 is about 1050 lb., an IFR trainer 1100 to even 1200. Add two 200-pound males and full fuel (26*6) and it’s not legal. Many flight schools keep 172s for just this reason[...]

Indeed.  I flew four times with my previous school, until I pointed out to my CFI that we were substantially over the 152’s limit.  His solution?  Offer to rent me the more-expensive 172.  Bye, bye.

Response:

Brad,     I own an RV6 and I agree with Bob wholeheartedly. The aircraft perform just as Van’s advertises and slightly better most of the time. So far, the RV line is my top candidate for a home-built of my own. And, it’s nice to see that the specs aren’t inflated.  Does that apply to their estimates of total cost and build-time, too?

Now you are getting into subjective areas which are not quite as easily answered. The answer is "That depends on you."  I have not built an RV myself but must deal with Vans Air Force at my local airport since 95% of the homebuilt planes there are RV’s.  Their experience (there were 17 of them under construction at one point) with the time and cost of building runs from pretty much on the money and time estimates to multiples of both.  If you are a first time builder, add a bit for the learning process.  If you follow the plans exactly, you will come fairly close but for any deviation from the plans the time (and most likely money) will increase substantially.  The cost varies dramatically depending on the engine choices.  Buy a mid time engine and prop and your costs will be between 10K and 20K lower than buying a new engine and prop.  You can spend you life savings on the instrument panel or get by for just a few thousand.  Same goes for the finish work.   Bob Reed http://robertr237.virtualave.net/      (KIS Project) KIS Cruiser in progress…2001 Oshkosh Odessy    (I can hope!) "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!" (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freidman)    

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, I know I can "pick" my own gross weight for normal (non-acro) flying – do most folks stick with the 1650lbs Van’s recommends or do you usually round up to 1700lbs? I once asked Van what criteria set the RV-4/6 gross at 1500/1600. His answer, paraphrased, was that they figured those were reasonable numbers, and they didn’t test beyond them.  If you _do_ decide to go with a higher GW, I’d recommend understanding the limitations and implications of that weight – like on takeoff, climb, abort, loads (including heavy landings), etc, and not just put down a number to fit a loadout you have in mind.  It sure sounds like there’s room there, but you/I/we oughta know where the cliffs are. If the finished airplane weights 1050, two pax (200 lbs each), 50lbs of bags, and full fuel works out to 1728 lbs. You may well run into CG problems with this, particularly as fuel burns off. Dave ‘NzW’ Hyde RV-4 builder

Right you are Dave but the -6 is not as sensitive to that as the -4 is, what people need to remember is that the g limits are based on given weights. Van’s gross weight recommendation was 1600 lbs when I built my RV-6 and Van set the g limits based on that weight. The gross weight can be raised but the g load limits must be reduced accordingly. I am a big person 6′3" and 250 lbs plus and have had other people close to my size with me and baggage in the back. the only thing that happens in a -6 is it get a little more pitch sensitive as fuel is burned off. Jerry (flying my RV-6 almost 11 years now) Springer

Response:

If you guys really need a kit, the RV is it. If you really want to build a ship, try a Tailwind. Stronger — (love lift struts) Faster on the same power– a lot  –  see CAFE results. Yes, I am very biased. assa9 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since no one has answered you yet…. My RV-3 performance is as advertised. BOb U. Brad,     I own an RV6 and I agree with Bob wholeheartedly. The aircraft perform just as Van’s advertises and slightly better most of the time. So far, the RV line is my top candidate for a home-built of my own. And, it’s nice to see that the specs aren’t inflated.  Does that apply to their estimates of total cost and build-time, too?

Response:

So far, the RV line is my top candidate for a home-built of my own. And, it’s nice to see that the specs aren’t inflated.  Does that apply to their estimates of total cost and build-time, too?

Ummmm… Total cost is hard to figure, since it depends on what goodies you want to install. It is possible to spend US$15K just in the instrument panel, for example. Also depends on how much you want pre-built. For example, you  could buy a quickbuild kit where lots of the work has already been done for you. Add in a new O-360 and CS prop, a flashy paint job, and leather uphostery and you could easily double the price of a basic VFR-only aircraft. Similarly, build-time is up to the individual. Even a first-time builder probably could put together a flyable RV in the 2000 hours Vans claims. However, most people want something a little better than a barely flyable aircraft. It seems that most first-timers spend about 3,000 hours. If you want to have a look at figures I’ve collected, go to fly.to/bunnysguide and look at the "Time to Build" page in the "Odds and Ends" submenu. Frank RV-6 builder, 1800 hours and many dollars. Many more of each to go.

Response:

I once asked Van what criteria set the RV-4/6 gross at 1500/1600. His answer, paraphrased, was that they figured those were reasonable numbers, and they didn’t test beyond them.  If you _do_ decide to go with a higher GW, I’d recommend understanding the limitations and implications of that weight – like on takeoff, climb, abort, loads (including heavy landings), etc, and not just put down a number to fit a loadout you have in mind.  It sure sounds like there’s room there, but you/I/we oughta know where the cliffs are.

This reminds me of a recent SI or RVator that tested the ultimate weight and ballance limits of an RV-6.  It was interesting reading. Especially if your like me and slightly over gross and nose heavy. Bruce Meacham RV-3 N3456B burning off a half tank before acro… Before you buy.

Response:

I can count the four seaters where you can fill seats and fuel on one hand, I think: Skylane, Navion… er… er…

Piper 140 & 160 Sundowner Cardinal Grumand Tiger (2 seater, but not legally in all loadings) That’s a hand full… BTW: All your points are valid. Bruce http://www.seanet.com/~bruceme/ShotGun.htm Before you buy.

Response:

I haven’t met a single person who’s had a negative thing to say about Vans Aircraft or it’s organization and I sertainly don’t. I hate to be a bore but you’ve met one now – well if you can call nntp meeting Unfortunately they pissed me off big-time and they won’t be getting my cash in a hurry.  Sounds like a one off which I’m happy to acknowledge.

    Please share.  Unless you feel that it would be violating a trust I know most of us would like to hear what happened.

Response:

] Well, I’m ready to bite the bullet and order an RV6A, but I’ve got a ] couple of questions for the real folks (I’ve talked to Van’s, but they ] are probably biased .  - snip – Wow, thanks for all the answers!  I was intered in a Glasair last spring, but …well…we all know the story.  Anyway, my EAA chapter (1229) has several folks with RV6s and although I never paid much attention to them, I looked at the quickbuild kit and talked to the folks as Oshkosh (nee Airventure) this year and was pretty much sold then and there.  My Archer was sold last week, so now I guess I need to fill out the order form and get crackin’! Thanks again for all the responses! Brad Benson, Notam Development Group Airport Insight – the first airport directory for Palm OS! http://www.notamd.com

Response:

I haven’t met a single person who’s had a negative thing to say about Vans Aircraft or it’s organization and I sertainly don’t.

I hate to be a bore but you’ve met one now – well if you can call nntp meeting They have an exceptional reputation for honesty and modesty.  Their numbers are real.  The people at Vans take pride in laying all the cards on the table.  What you see is what you get.

This appears to be a widely held opinion and it also appears their product is exceptional.  Unfortunately they pissed me off big-time and they won’t be getting my cash in a hurry.  Sounds like a one off which I’m happy to acknowledge.

Response:

[Van's rep] is exceptional.  Unfortunately they pissed me off big-time and they won’t be getting my cash in a hurry.  Sounds like a one off which I’m happy to acknowledge.

Fair enough.  Anyone can have a bad day and it’s big of you to put it such terms.  Anything in particular you could pass along to help the next guy avoid a similar experience?

Response:

So far, the RV line is my top candidate for a home-built of my own. And, it’s nice to see that the specs aren’t inflated.  Does that apply to their estimates of total cost and build-time, too? If you want to have a look at figures I’ve collected, go to fly.to/bunnysguide and look at the "Time to Build" page in the "Odds and Ends" submenu.

Very informative.  Thanks.

Response:

<snip Also, I know I can "pick" my own gross weight for normal (non-acro) flying – do most folks stick with the 1650lbs Van’s recommends or do you usually round up to 1700lbs?  If the finished airplane weights 1050, two pax (200 lbs each), 50lbs of bags, and full fuel works out to 1728 lbs.  

Brad, way more qualified people have answered you on Van’s and RV numbers. However, let’s talk about gross weight in general. Where _does_ this number come from? Well, a good engineer doesn’t pull it out of his nether reaches, he calculates it. Some of the many factors that go into it are the load-bearing strength of the airctaft structures, effect of weight on speeds (bad at both ends of the envelope) and angles of attack, intended load-factor profile of the plane’s mission, climb performance, high-altitude performance. This doesn’t mean you can’t recalculate these things. In fact you should probably do this math anyway in order to have a good understanding of your plane If you hunt through the auto engines thread, you will find a badwater bill reply to me, referencing an engine-out RV-6 landing he made a couple of years ago. He was far over gross at the time, with 450# of crew and 240# of fuel, and at a high pressure and density altitude, all of which led to an unexpected stall, fortunately low enough that it just became part of a hard landing rather than an NTSB fatal. It’s harder to feel stall buffet in a heavily loaded plane, too (you can prove this yourself in a 150 or Traumahawk, by stalling solo and with a passenger, concentrating on the feel). Gross weight is not an immutable number any more than CG is. In fact you can (and people freqiently do) get FAA approval to conduct specific over-gross flights… for instance transatlantic ferry flights. (Jon Johanson flies his RV-4 over gross a lot, but then he keeps flying it around the world). Probably a quarter of the GA planes in the air right now are being operated over gross. I can count the four seaters where you can fill seats and fuel on one hand, I think: Skylane, Navion… er… er… got fingers left still, I must be forgetting a couple. Two seaters are almost the same way. Go to your flight school and watch an instructor and student go out to a 152; estimate their weight. Gross weight is about 1670. A stripped 152 is about 1050 lb., an IFR trainer 1100 to even 1200. Add two 200-pound males and full fuel (26*6) and it’s not legal. Many flight schools keep 172s for just this reason, so they’re still on the side of the FAAngels when big gorillas come seeking training (plus they’re easier to keep rented than 2-seat trainers). Others just fly 100 pounds or two over and hope than nobody wants to bugger them about today. cheers -=K=- Rule #1: Don’t hit anything big.

Response:

My experience with Van and his products indicate that his numbers are conservative – aircraft performance and build times.  I did some test flying on an RV-6 and the numbers were better than Van’s claims. Build time is difficult to estimate, of course, since folks can go crazy either with perfectionism or adding so many bells and whistles.  Van clearly states that his estimates are based on a basic, day, VFR plane – very simple, nothing fancy. When you look at a Van’s built plane, you see that those folks practice what they preach. Michael Pilla RV-4, still plumbing engine and crafting the panel (two job moves, remodel of one house and building a new one, sigh. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since no one has answered you yet…. My RV-3 performance is as advertised. BOb U. Brad,     I own an RV6 and I agree with Bob wholeheartedly. The aircraft perform just as Van’s advertises and slightly better most of the time. So far, the RV line is my top candidate for a home-built of my own. And, it’s nice to see that the specs aren’t inflated.  Does that apply to their estimates of total cost and build-time, too?

Response:

Brad,     I own an RV6 and I agree with Bob wholeheartedly. The aircraft perform just as Van’s advertises and slightly better most of the time. So far, the RV line is my top candidate for a home-built of my own. And, it’s nice to see that the specs aren’t inflated.  Does that apply to their estimates of total cost and build-time, too?

Questions, QUESTIONS!!!  <g Before Jim Baker has a chance to answer, you need to know his RV is one of the best decked out, best built RV’s you can find on the planet.. and an OSH winner. Like Van, whatever he tells you, you can take to the bank. BOb U.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, I’m ready to bite the bullet and order an RV6A, but I’ve got a couple of questions for the real folks (I’ve talked to Van’s, but they are probably biased . What is the average 75% cruise for an RV6A w/180hp and CS prop at optimum altitude?  I’ve heard all kinds of numbers from various folks, ranging from 150kts TAS to 190kts TAS – is there really that much of a variation? Also, I know I can "pick" my own gross weight for normal (non-acro) flying – do most folks stick with the 1650lbs Van’s recommends or do you usually round up to 1700lbs?  If the finished airplane weights 1050, two pax (200 lbs each), 50lbs of bags, and full fuel works out to 1728 lbs.   Thanks! Brad Benson

Since no one has answered you yet…. My RV-3 performance is as advertised. What I hear from all RV builders/owners is they are very satisfied. No unpleasant surprises. Quite the contrary. BOb U.

Response:

Since no one has answered you yet…. My RV-3 performance is as advertised. BOb U.

Brad,     I own an RV6 and I agree with Bob wholeheartedly. The aircraft perform just as Van’s advertises and slightly better most of the time. Bonanza drivers and most Mooneys have their eyes opened when you ease right     I have my gross at 1800 lbs. I try to watch my landing weight in gusty winds more than anything. You will love the airplane and good luck. Jim Baker N699JB

Response:

Since no one has answered you yet…. My RV-3 performance is as advertised. BOb U. Brad,     I own an RV6 and I agree with Bob wholeheartedly. The aircraft perform just as Van’s advertises and slightly better most of the time.

So far, the RV line is my top candidate for a home-built of my own. And, it’s nice to see that the specs aren’t inflated.  Does that apply to their estimates of total cost and build-time, too?

Response:

So far, the RV line is my top candidate for a home-built of my own. And, it’s nice to see that the specs aren’t inflated.  Does that apply to their estimates of total cost and build-time, too?

I can’t speak for build time.  I’m in the middle of my -4.  But I own a -3 and I haven’t met a single person who’s had a negative thing to say about Vans Aircraft or it’s organization and I sertainly don’t. They have an exceptional reputation for honesty and modesty.  Their numbers are real.  The people at Vans take pride in laying all the cards on the table.  What you see is what you get. Bruce Meacham RV-3 N3456B http://www.seanet.com/~bruceme/ShotGun.htm Before you buy.

Response:

Well, I’m ready to bite the bullet and order an RV6A, but I’ve got a couple of questions for the real folks (I’ve talked to Van’s, but they are probably biased . What is the average 75% cruise for an RV6A w/180hp and CS prop at optimum altitude?  I’ve heard all kinds of numbers from various folks, ranging from 150kts TAS to 190kts TAS – is there really that much of a variation? Also, I know I can "pick" my own gross weight for normal (non-acro) flying – do most folks stick with the 1650lbs Van’s recommends or do you usually round up to 1700lbs?  If the finished airplane weights 1050, two pax (200 lbs each), 50lbs of bags, and full fuel works out to 1728 lbs.   Thanks! Brad Benson, Notam Development Group http://www.notamd.com

Response:

Question:

My company does database input for small business clients, many of whom use Quickbooks, MYOB, Peachtree, etc. Among the things we do is input our clients Accounts Payable and Receivable into our own database. Then we let give the files to our clients for import. The problem is that they get duplicate entries.  For example: 1. OfficeDepot sends them a bill on April 2 2. We input the bill into a database for them on April 3 3. Our client downloads from that database on April 4, so the client now has a QB, MYOB, etc. record of the unpaid OfficeDepot bill. 4. Our client pays the bill on April 10. 5. We update the database that we manage to reflect this payment. 6. Our client downloads from our database on April 11 7. Our client now has a problem, since QB, MYOB, etc. seem to read the payment information from April 10 as a new invoice!  QB & MYOB now show two OfficeDepot bills from April 2, one of which is listed as unpaid and the second of which is listed as paid!  But they are really the same invoice, the "unpaid" one should have been replaced by the "paid" bill. Is there any way to get QB, MYOB, etc. to recognize that there have been changes made to the invoice (like that its been paid)? Thanks. Steve Schmidt Before you buy.

Response:

Payment of a bill is a separate transaction, it is not a change to the bill. QB and most other accounting software can attempt to recognize and prevent duplicate entry of a bill based on the bill number (it’s a "preference" setting in QB), but it is not foolproof and I doubt that it works with imported transactions. The duplication is obvious – you and your client are both entering the bill.  Probably you MUST, in order to enter the bill payment in your database, so tell your client NOT to enter the bill.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My company does database input for small business clients, many of whom use Quickbooks, MYOB, Peachtree, etc. Among the things we do is input our clients Accounts Payable and Receivable into our own database. Then we let give the files to our clients for import. The problem is that they get duplicate entries.  For example: 1. OfficeDepot sends them a bill on April 2 2. We input the bill into a database for them on April 3 3. Our client downloads from that database on April 4, so the client now has a QB, MYOB, etc. record of the unpaid OfficeDepot bill. 4. Our client pays the bill on April 10. 5. We update the database that we manage to reflect this payment. 6. Our client downloads from our database on April 11 7. Our client now has a problem, since QB, MYOB, etc. seem to read the payment information from April 10 as a new invoice!  QB & MYOB now show two OfficeDepot bills from April 2, one of which is listed as unpaid and the second of which is listed as paid!  But they are really the same invoice, the "unpaid" one should have been replaced by the "paid" bill. Is there any way to get QB, MYOB, etc. to recognize that there have been changes made to the invoice (like that its been paid)? Thanks. Steve Schmidt Before you buy.

Response:

Re item 6 what kind of transaction are you telling QB that this is?  For it to work, it should be BILLPMT. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My company does database input for small business clients, many of whom use Quickbooks, MYOB, Peachtree, etc. Among the things we do is input our clients Accounts Payable and Receivable into our own database. Then we let give the files to our clients for import. The problem is that they get duplicate entries.  For example: 1. OfficeDepot sends them a bill on April 2 2. We input the bill into a database for them on April 3 3. Our client downloads from that database on April 4, so the client now has a QB, MYOB, etc. record of the unpaid OfficeDepot bill. 4. Our client pays the bill on April 10. 5. We update the database that we manage to reflect this payment. 6. Our client downloads from our database on April 11 7. Our client now has a problem, since QB, MYOB, etc. seem to read the payment information from April 10 as a new invoice!  QB & MYOB now show two OfficeDepot bills from April 2, one of which is listed as unpaid and the second of which is listed as paid!  But they are really the same invoice, the "unpaid" one should have been replaced by the "paid" bill. Is there any way to get QB, MYOB, etc. to recognize that there have been changes made to the invoice (like that its been paid)? Thanks. Steve Schmidt Before you buy.

Response:

alt.comp.software.fin,biz.comp.accouting,comp.text.xml,alt.accounting: My company does database input for small business clients, many of whom use Quickbooks, MYOB, Peachtree, etc. [...] they get duplicate entries

Well, this is probably a troll since you’re hip enough to post into the XML discussion.  But anyway… Yours is an *excellent* example of a replication problem.  Replication is a serious subject on which acres of book/magazine material appeared 1980- 1995 or so, but isn’t "news" anymore.  There were some really excellent articles on the subject of replication in DBMS Magazine and DBPJ Magazine, both of which were bought and discontinued by Miller Freeman http://index.thunderstone.com/texis/dbms/mag/search.html   This kind of pure research stuff has fragmented to various websites like TDAN–  http://www.tdan.com/edatt1_archive.htm   Whenever a magazine just tells the plain simple truth, the advertisers flee (e.g. Byte, Boardwatch, Network, etc. and I fear, InfoWorld)  To make money in the magazine business, you have to print biased features and product comparisons that support your advertisers (e.g. anything from Ziff Davis) YES replication can be done but NO, replication is not a good strategy. http://www.gldialtone.com/endredundancy.htm http://www.gldialtone.com/exploration.htm So, you have to view the "replication" problem as just a "tactical" question within the broader strategic question of where your data resources must be maintained, if you’re ever going to obtain the best long-term economic results.   I presume you’re planning to have a long-term presence in public accounting 3 years and more… Replication is pretty much dead, in accounting or OLTP applications, other than some "publish and subscribe" models for keeping everybody’s items and customers list current.   If you have multiple locations, you want a centrallized master file for transactions, PERIOD.  Now that we have the internet and XML to permit loose coupled, asynchronous posting there is no excuse for what you’re doing. My company does database input for small business clients, many of whom use Quickbooks, MYOB, Peachtree, etc.

NO — it is impossible to implement any coherent replication process using consumer products like Quickbooks, MYOB, and Peachtree.  These packages maintain proprietary, lock-in databases that prevent any hope of replication.  (Many programmers have tried. All have failed.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Among the things we do is input our clients Accounts Payable and Receivable into our own database. Then we let give the files to our clients for import. The problem is that they get duplicate entries.  For example: 1. OfficeDepot sends them a bill on April 2 2. We input the bill into a database for them on April 3 3. Our client downloads from that database on April 4, so the client now has a QB, MYOB, etc. record of the unpaid OfficeDepot bill. 4. Our client pays the bill on April 10. 5. We update the database that we manage to reflect this payment. 6. Our client downloads from our database on April 11 7. Our client now has a problem, since QB, MYOB, etc. seem to read the payment information from April 10 as a new invoice!  QB & MYOB now show two OfficeDepot bills from April 2, one of which is listed as unpaid and the second of which is listed as paid!  But they are really the same invoice, the "unpaid" one should have been replaced by the "paid" bill. Is there any way to get QB, MYOB, etc. to recognize that there have been changes made to the invoice (like that its been paid)?

Steve– you have to think more strategically.   1.  You want the database to be located someplace where your client can access it, and you can also access it. 2.  Your bookkeeper shouldn’t be doing so much data entry anyway. In the long run you have to guide your clients away from products that require the Sewing Machine approach to business (operator sits at the console inputting all the transactions). Take the pledge: "I WILL NEVER LOOK AT DATA.  I ONLY WORK WITH METADATA." I took this pledge 12/31/99 and will never again input numbers from paper into computers or into tax returns.  I only work with the system. I don’t do writeup or taxes. I tell the computer how to handle TYPES of data.  Then the computer will do the writeup and the taxes. 3.  You want a product that can send and receive orders, invoices and payments over the internet.  With Quickbooks, Peachtree and MYOB you can only conduct a dialogue with your laser printer.  You are driving a software platform decision which is the root cause of very far-reaching and costly paper-based workcycle, physical trips to the postoffice and the bank, etc. Get a webledger NOW.  Ease into it.  Run them as a sub-ledger. Don’t wait five years.   Save yourself.  Save your clients. NetLedger http://www.netledger.com  ** the best right now afaics. BizTone http://www.biztone.com/ IntAcct http://www.intacct.com/ eLedger http://www.eledger.com/ BizFinity http://www.bizfinity.com/accfinity.cfm NetVeil http://www.netveil.com/ SecuredBooks http://www.securedbooks.com/ BAPort http://www.baport.com CyberOffice http://www.cyberoffice.com Accounter http://accounter.mit.edu/ OpenAccounts http://www.openaccounts.com/ FlagSys http://www.flagsys.com/ASP.html RDS http://www.rds-software.com/Frame/webeng/Primaindex.html QSP http://www.qspinc.com/ MetalWare http://www.metalwareinc.com/ AccKnowledge http://www.m3as.com/FBMain.htm Primacy http://www.primacycorp.com/ etc etc etc etc etc.  hundreds of smaller ones. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

YES replication can be done but NO, replication is not a good strategy.

Controlled replication is not an easy problem to solve, but it does have valid applications. That’s the space where Lotus makes a lot of their money. In the web-world, many folks are looking at smart caching of one sort or another, which also becomes a kind of replication. Most of the "source code control systems" also attempt to address this issue, to some degree. Replicating across applications that weren’t designed for the purpose is considerably harder, of course. XML may be of use in transcoding the data into a form where it’s easier to compare. But unless the applications capture timestamps for each change to their data on a record-by-record basis, it can be very difficult to reconcile conflicts when the same data is authored from more than one source. And even when they do, occasionally you may  run into situations where you do need to step in manually and help the the machine figure out which portions of which change should win. —

Response:

Boyle) writes: Replication is pretty much dead, in accounting or OLTP applications, other than some "publish and subscribe" models for keeping everybody’s items and customers list current.  

Umm… Much as I hate to disagree with Todd, replication is still an essential part of most fault tolerance strategies, and while FT used to be the province of the big boys it is now becoming a basic factor (I hope !) in all Web-based systems, albeit as "high availability" rather than FT. Of course replication is not duplication. NO — it is impossible to implement any coherent replication process using consumer products like Quickbooks, MYOB, and Peachtree.  These packages maintain proprietary, lock-in databases that prevent any hope of replication.

Which provides interesting implications when combined with my comment above…     — Roger Barnett

Response:

YES replication can be done but NO, replication is not a good strategy. Controlled replication is not an easy problem to solve, but it does have valid applications. … In the web-world, many folks are looking at smart caching of one sort or another, which also becomes a kind of replication.

These are good facts.  But the original post had two accountants in two locations posting transactions into two separate copies of the same transaction database…. not a good strategy…. A commonsense architecture for small business with multiple sites is either to stay out of each other’s way by some kind of batch system, or logging into a single accounting system – a webledger, in other words.  My links page has a list of commercial and free webledgers available. Anytime you have a replication question you have to wonder why. In the first place there shouldnt’ be manual data entry going on at the sites.  There should be an architecture on the web, where they perform actions like buying and selling, in order to update both partys’ systems.  i.e. those transactions should flow as XML messages to the appropriate host systems.  So any time you see replication, you know, something stinks. There is no trend for online accounting and business applications, webledgers, ehubs or marketplaces etc. to use database replication for transactions, or even take advantage of the caches out on the net, that I’m aware of,even for lists.  There is no business XML vocabulary for it either.  All the business vocabularies are XML messages like I described previous paragraph. All of the leading webledgers are doing everything they can, to make the product fast and responsive and they’re all very focused on caching; for example BizTone and eLedger experimented with separate browser windows for a while; my impression was BizTone had put some lists into local memory controlled by applets.  BAPort takes advantage of some capability built into the MSIE5 browser, to persist some tables of XML.  Several of the webledgers use ActiveX controls or local executables which opens the possibilities for some intelligent caching of lists.  But the leading webledgers all just run in a browser, and use the same (limited) tricks to try to keep selected information in the browser cache, * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

These are good facts.  But the original post had two accountants in two locations posting transactions into two separate copies of the same transaction database…. not a good strategy….

Of course replication _is_ harder to code than accessing the database "live". But if one of the users has a good reason to run disconnected at times, replication can be a better solution. Make it two salesmen at different sites rather than two accountants, who need reasonably-but-not-absolutely current data on the company they’re working with and whose separately-submitted orders aren’t going to step on each other. If you really need a completely accurate at-this-moment result, then yes, you need to go back to the central server. Of course that is only a snapshot, unless you keep going back to the server and track the changes as they occur… which is, itself, a kind of replication. But the leading webledgers all just run in a browser,

Tautology, perhaps? If it’s web-based, folks expect it to run in a browser. That doesn’t necessarily mean that a browser is the best way to access it. (I seem to remember that Notes can be accessed via a browser these days, if you don’t need replication.) Note: I don’t mean to push Notes for this application; I don’t know enough about accounting software to have a valid opinion. I just wanted to point out that "it hasn’t been done so it can’t be done" is probably a bad way to bet. (And yes, I understand that accountants are among the most conservative computer users, and rightly so. But remember, it wasn’t that long ago that paper double-entry was the state of the art.) —

Response:

Question:

is the work experience requirement (i e work under a CPA and accumulate the requisite audit hours) inherently unfair to some groups of persons who do not fit the recent accounting grad under 25 mold there are people who have gone back to school at a later age to get accounting degrees and then find it difficult to get hired.  effectively they are barred from getting the CPA license please post your thoughts about the cpa candidate process….

in this state (VA) just working for a CPA is experience so you can get a job in industry, not necessarily for a CPA firm

Response:

is the work experience requirement (i e work under a CPA and accumulate the requisite audit hours) inherently unfair to some groups of persons who do not fit the recent accounting grad under 25 mold there are people who have gone back to school at a later age to get accounting degrees and then find it difficult to get hired.  effectively they are barred from getting the CPA license please post your thoughts about the cpa candidate process….

I fit into that category, so I think my opinion is valid.  The alternative to the auditing experience is a Master’s degree (Colorado), and seems fair.  I’m fairly happy with my practice as is, but may go back to school at some point, only because I have an interest in forensic accounting. Martha Brummett, E.A. Denver CO

Response:

is the work experience requirement (i e work under a CPA and accumulate the requisite audit hours) inherently unfair to some groups of persons who do not fit the recent accounting grad under 25 mold ? there are people who have gone back to school at a later age to get accounting degrees and then find it difficult to get hired.  effectively they are barred from getting the CPA license please post your thoughts about the cpa candidate process….

In Texas, the work experience required can be under the direction of a CPA willing sign-off on your behalf.  That can be in industry, governmental, or non profit… not just public practice.  I went back to earn my degree at 30, finishing at 33.  My interest was in industry, and it was a focal point of my job interviews.  I needed to work under a CPA, be allowed study time for the exam, and was even offered a bonus when I passed all parts.   Good luck in your quest! Russell Tuncap, CMA, CPA

Response:

is the work experience requirement (i e work under a CPA and accumulate the requisite audit hours) inherently unfair to some groups of persons who do not fit the recent accounting grad under 25 mold ? there are people who have gone back to school at a later age to get accounting degrees and then find it difficult to get hired.  effectively they are barred from getting the CPA license please post your thoughts about the cpa candidate process….

I went back to school at 26 and I was 30 when I was hired by Touche Ross.  I was not the oldest of the new hires that year. My inablity to drive was more of a issue.  While all of the other new hires were studying for the exam, I was taking driving lessons. E.     "And if I fail?"                                                             "I’ll slit you from your guggle to your zatch, and feed you to the Todal"

Response:

Question:

Hello, I’m located in Brazil. The Brazilian govenment has an incentive program for software exports. If one can write a software with a good selling potential, there will be a very generous financing of all the expenses involved in writing the SW, manuals, packaging and other related matters. Anyone have ideas about a new software need and how to market it?

Response:

The Brazilian govenment has an incentive program for software exports. If one can write a software with a good selling potential, there will be a very generous financing of all the expenses involved in writing the SW, manuals, packaging and other related matters.

This is a great opportunity of you! The government subsidizes, you get the international partners, the partners take care of the marketing expenditures and you’re on the way to the bank! Anyone have ideas about a new software need and how to market it?

I would suggest the "home-consumer" and "SOHO" segments. There is HUGE potential for local language markets, even with Microsoft and its home and SOHO products becoming available in more languages. Consider:         Hobby- music, genealogy, stamps, cooking         Organizers, personal finance, SOHO accounting, invoicing And you can develop quality software in VB4 or Delphi quickly. Rather than just going about getting international partners, I suggest you "focus" on Portugal, thus finding a Portuguese partner. Once the products are launched in Portugal and you have capital from the sales, turn around and introduce the same programs to the Brazilian market. All you then need to do is market, market, market and you’ll have the resources to do this with. Once the Brazilian market (and Portuguese market) are under way, all you have to do is translate the software and add/change options for the different countries. So the government in its "export" push allows you to use the same products for domestic. Of course the government wins but you also win and a greater win at that. As for the marketing…that depends on the products and segments, which is better left to when you’re close to realizing this opportunity.         RFD: misc.business.moderated moderated Unofficial http://www.nijenrode.nl/mbmm/mbm.html         Proponent:            misc.business.moderated

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Bullshit!  People die all the time because they can’t afford health care.  Many die because they do not get routine care, and develop life-threatening illnesses that could have been prevented.

People die all the time as well from ignoring the signs of serious illness. Should we legislate against stupidity as well? MD — —  Michael P. Deignan                      / —    UUCP: …!uunet!rayssd!anomaly!mpd  /    I hate everyone. — Telebit: +1 401 455 0347              /

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        [The typical Canada vs. US health care debate...]         Like I said, experimental procedures will *always* be the exception, whether you have "national health insurance" or private insurance.         Back to comparing mainstream treatments: in the US you will get those treatments, either through your health care or by visiting the emergency room to get treatment.  In Canada, you might wait…possibly too long.         Not that the US system is perfect.  Indeed primary and preventive care for all, supplied in the same way that education is supplied, is a benefit to all by lowering the rate of illness and death.         But I will never believe that the US government is the vehicle to bring health care to all at the lowest cost. Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

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   Back to comparing mainstream treatments: in the US you will get those treatments, either through your health care or by visiting the emergency room to get treatment.  In Canada, you might wait…possibly too long.

Quotes from Letters to the Editor, New York Times, March 1/92: "Canadians receive less of only a handful of elective high-technology services, like coronary bypass surgery, which is clearly overused in the United States.  As our General Accounting Office has documented, there are virtually no waiting lists for emergency surgery in Canada. A fair evaluation would state that American are more likely to die from unneeded surgery than Canadians to die on a waiting list." "David U. Himmelstein, M.D. "Steffie Woolhander, M.D. (Feb. 19/92) "[The writer are, respectively, associate professor and assistant professor of medicine, Harvard Medical School]" "What Canada provides is a good basic service.  If you need it, you get it.  If you don’t, you might wait.  A friend waited two years for a triple bypass.  When his doctor decided he should wait no longer, he was put at the top of the list and had his surgery two days later. These are decisions that have to be made by those capable of making them, not by politicians interested only in getting elected or reelected, doctors interested in lining their pockets, or insurance companies interested in the same thing.  In orther words, the people should make the decision." "Marvin Lyons "Richmond, British Columbia (Feb. 14/92) (By the way, Richmond is a very well-to-do area in metro Vancouver.) On the other hand, You et al presuppose a direct state-controlled health care apparatus that may exist in some Third World and Eastern bloc countries.  Those are NOT the PASSIVE fiduciary health insurance funds run by other western-G7-market-oriented-democracies like Canada or in the EC.  Health care is NOT provided by the government!!!  Note that (betcha you won’t!) doctors run their own practices, and we have private-like hospitals where they can be run with competant boards and supported by foundations (just like the Vanderbilts and the Astors of New York, with our Mount Sinai and Sloan-Kettering …) I live in New York City and know well the kind of public enterprise nightmare that Ron Dippold and Stupe envision … however, those are the only references you dudes base your commentary upon outside of misleading (if not fabricated) anecdotes about Canada’s system, which I and others from the frozen north have pointed out is a similiar look and feel system to America’s.  We never gave up our choice of doctors nor our access and I certainly hope you guys will remind your peers not to either when faced against the lawyer, doctor-owned labs, and insurance weasels. gld — Gary L. Dare                            The number of Canadians who — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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   [The typical Canada vs. US health care debate...]    Not that the US system is perfect.  Indeed primary and preventive care for all, supplied in the same way that education is supplied, is a benefit to all by lowering the rate of illness and death.    But I will never believe that the US government is the vehicle to bring health care to all at the lowest cost.

Then who – the private for-profit insurance companies – not bloody likely. In Canada I selected my own doctor (despite what the AMA would have you believe), here, under our *new, improved* medplan (PPO) if I insist on keeping my own doctor(s) (who are not in the PPO list) I get 80% back as opposed to 100% for using one of the doctors in their list. Even if my doctor(s) charges exactly the same fee, I still only get 80% – it seems obvious that the folks at the insurance company need new programers. No, SM, you can be sure of one thing – leave things as they are by BSing the public and counting on *rugged individualism*, you and I will cont- inue to get screwed and the AMA and Insurance business will reap all the bennies. Try reading T.S.Eliot’s No man is an island sometime and just maybe the message might get through. REB Just one who is slightly PO’d with watching people behave like lemmings, simply because it is the American Thing To Do.

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        Stuff deleted I grew up in a republican family, and we certainly knew who the Bad Guys were… now that the communists have self-destructed, perhaps our Yankee bretherin have nothing left to worry about but the Socialist Hoardes. Gotta have somebody to be afraid of, eh?

        Material deleted For all of our financial woes, and our propensity to elect the most inept politicians in the nation, the truth is that Canadians are a pretty happy lot, quite smug in their warm backwater, and so they should be – they have it made. God Bless the Queen

        Note the first paragragh I quote. We are *not* secure unless we can deter invasion, covert or otherwise, from hostile nations. What’s to stop some future USAmerican demagogue from declaring Canada the Nicaragua of the North and ‘liberating’ us from our Red Overlords?         The Health thread show how poorly educated USAmericans are wrt Canada. If some can think we live 3 people to the klick**2, why not that we are a brain-washed slave nation ripe for the plucking, ah, ‘liberating’?         The US respects strength. Canada needs a decent military and sufficient weapons of mass destruction (which must also be able to survive the fisrt strike) before we can feel ’smug’ over our ‘happy backwater’.                                                         James Nicoll

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        How long have you been in the US?  Have you ever seen a VA or Gov run hospital?  Will you still support the view that the government isn’t running (and messing up) the health care in those facilities? The government doesn’t run our hospitals, it simply provides funding at various levels – the comparison isn’t fair or even close to accurate, from what I’ve seen of Canadian hospitals in the past 35 years.        What about government funded family planning clinics?  Is denial of the ability to even *talk* about a procedure a germane issue?        I and many others think so. Sounds to me as if the problem isn’t with universal medical care, but with your government.

        Apparently the light bulbs are going off.         I and others have been trying to point out that socialized/national/whatever gary will call it next which equates to government funded insurance/care will not work because of the way the US government operates.         This appears to be beyond the scope of some readers comprehension . the only references you dudes base your commentary upon outside of misleading (if not fabricated) anecdotes about Canada’s system, which I and others from the frozen north have pointed out is a similiar look and feel system to America’s.  We never gave up our choice of doctors nor our access and I certainly hope you guys will remind your peers not to either when faced against the lawyer, doctor-owned labs, and insurance weasels.        "look and feel" isn’t the issue.  It’s the monolithic behemoth behind that facade that concerns us. I cannot agree that that’s a problem on _this_ side of the border.

        Ok.  When the debate starts about whether the Canadian goverment meddles in health care like the US government does/would, I’ll keep that in mind.         But we *are* talking about what to do in the US.  What works/doesn’t work in Canada cannot be directly transferred to the US. Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

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Can anybody explain how the Canada/U.S. comparison is relevant to determining how we should run our health care system?

Good point.  It’s not particularly relevant.  Canada’s population mix of age and ethnic groups is significantly different than the U.S.  The fact that Canada spends X% of GNP on health care and the U.S. spends Y% is *no* indication that the U.S. could cut it’s costs by adopting a Canadian style system. The argument of waiting lists in Canada is probably moot.

Wrong, it goes to quality of care.  While it may not be fatal for me to wait months to have a procedure done, it certainly affects my life in a negative way.   Persons requiring immediate attention are undoubtedly squeezed in on an emergency basis; those that are not emergency cases but demand treatment before their would-be date on the waiting list can travel to centers in the East or in the U.S.  The idea that a waiting list indicates people are being denied treatment is flawed logic.  

If the U.S. established a Canadian style system, waiting lists would grow here.  It’s a simple matter of economics.  If you hold the cost constant in the face of high demand, shortages will result. If waiting lists exist in the U.S. and Canada, where will Canadians go for prompt treatment?  Where will U.S. citizens go?  The issue of waiting lists is *very* important. I also wonder about these arguments that the government can’t manage anything well and that a national health care/insurance system would necessarily produce poorer care.  While that may be true, i am troubled by what this says about the U.S. compared to Europe where the governments have been managing social care systems (not just medicine) for years and where death rates are down and the standard of living higher than it is for us "proud to be Americans."

Comparing the operation of a health system the size of the U.S. to individual European countries is ridiculous.  European countries tend to be the size of U.S. States.  It is far easier to manage a plan from an entity the size of a state than an entity the size of the U.S.  Also, populations in European countries tend to be more homogenous than the U.S.  Comparing death rates and costs between the U.S. and European countries is ‘flawed logic’. We are quickly becoming a nation that cannot manage our own problems and that resorts to stupid sloganeering like: "If you give the government more money they’ll just spend it."

Actually a more accurate slogan would be "If you give the government more money they’ll just spend 1.5 times the money given". If optimal taxation (i.e. taxing just enough to get the job done without excessive burden on the taxpayer) were simply a matter of "less is better," then why not abolish taxes altogether?

Now you’re thinking.  :-) Of course that means no schools, no police, no roads, no government-insured bank accounts, no military to fend off attack from abroad, no legal system to settle differences, etc.  

Schools, police, roads can all be provided (and are being provided) by the private sector and funded with user fees, not taxes.  No government insured bank accounts?  Sounds good to me.  No S&L debacle.  No legal system?  Again, user fees can support this system, taxation isn’t necessarily needed.  Defense?  I would agree that taxes might be necessary for this one (others will disagree).  Read "The Machinery of Freedom" by David Freidman for discussion of the above issues. What happened to good old American pragmatism and the ability to face up to tough situations with a clear willingness to compromise?   And if government has gotten that bad, what can we do to fix it?

Give it less money and power. — University of Michigan             uucp: uunet!mailrus!citi.umich.edu!jwh Ann Arbor, MI   48103-4943

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Can anybody explain how the Canada/U.S. comparison is relevant to determining how we should run our health care system? Given that Canada is larger than the U.S. with 1/10th the population spread sparsely throughout, isn’t this like comparing the organization of medical systems in Wyoming to those of New York City? I doubt that Cheyenne has the kinds of high tech trauma support available in NYC just quite simply because there is no way (even by helicopter) to deliver patients in time from far points in the service area.  And the cost of providing any high tech service in a less sparsely populated area goes up enormously just because there are not enough billable visits among which to distribute service costs. The argument of waiting lists in Canada is probably moot.  Persons requiring immediate attention are undoubtedly squeezed in on an emergency basis; those that are not emergency cases but demand treatment before their would-be date on the waiting list can travel to centers in the East or in the U.S.  The idea that a waiting list indicates people are being denied treatment is flawed logic.  The main thing here is that the individual not be DENIED THE TREATMENT because it isn’t paid for.  And clear indications are that denial of treatment for inability to pay is more a U.S. problem than a Canadian one. I also wonder about these arguments that the government can’t manage anything well and that a national health care/insurance system would necessarily produce poorer care.  While that may be true, i am troubled by what this says about the U.S. compared to Europe where the governments have been managing social care systems (not just medicine) for years and where death rates are down and the standard of living higher than it is for us "proud to be Americans."  We are quickly becoming a nation that cannot manage our own problems and that resorts to stupid sloganeering like: "If you give the government more money they’ll just spend it."  If optimal taxation (i.e. taxing just enough to get the job done without excessive burden on the taxpayer) were simply a matter of "less is better," then why not abolish taxes altogether?  Of course that means no schools, no police, no roads, no government-insured bank accounts, no military to fend off attack from abroad, no legal system to settle differences, etc.  What happened to good old American pragmatism and the ability to face up to tough situations with a clear willingness to compromise?   And if government has gotten that bad, what can we do to fix it?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I and others from the frozen north have pointed out is a similiar look and feel system to America’s.  We never gave up our choice of doctors nor our access and …    "look and feel" isn’t the issue.  It’s the monolithic behemoth behind that facade that concerns us. I cannot agree that that’s a problem on _this_ side of the border. Right, Ken!  Actually, I’ve found that in cocktail conversations with people down here, there mere question "If things are the way that you claim they are, in Canada and Europe, why is it not an issue there??? And you don’t hear any complaints from other Canadians in this room, let alone Marie-Pierre or Lars-Erik over there?" (we live in a great international dorm, about 1/3 Americans) If the facts how things work don’t anger them enough, not hearing what they wanted (often shaking what they’ve read from wherever), then that question is the capper … Really, why don’t you hear Canadians coming out on the side of those who criticise our fiduciary system?  Hell, we’d be happy for all the attention in the U.S. media! (-;   So far, nobody’s begging for an "Operation Arctic Storm" to liberate us (Canadians) from universal basic health coverage yet … (-; (-; (-; gld — Gary L. Dare                                The number of Canadians who —

I saw a poll that said that 84% of Americans (USA) feel our health care system needs FUNDAMETNAL reform.  The corresponding figure for Canadians was 3%.  Anyone see figures for Europeans? —                 dingo in boulder                         arfsneba

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sm Back to comparing mainstream treatments: in the US you will get sm those treatments, either through your health care or by visiting sm the emergency room to get treatment.  In Canada, you might sm wait…possibly too long. I assume canada has emergancy treatment too… The point is that by the time they get to an A&E department it is too late. That way of providing care is bad for the patient and expensive for everyone. It is to everyone’s advantage to treat them before that. Well, everyone except the insurance companies who get to handle less money and hence to get less rake off. —                                          |<

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I cannot agree that that’s a problem on _this_ side of the border. Right, Ken!  Actually, I’ve found that in cocktail conversations with people down here, there mere question "If things are the way that you claim they are, in Canada and Europe, why is it not an issue there???

The only issue here is, in my mind, that Canadians really don’t seem to appreciate (or even understand) how much our magnificent health care system is costing us. Perhaps if they did, we’d be more careful about the billions we waste every year… And you don’t hear any complaints from other Canadians in this room, let alone Marie-Pierre or Lars-Erik over there?" (we live in a great international dorm, about 1/3 Americans) If the facts how things work don’t anger them enough, not hearing what they wanted (often shaking what they’ve read from wherever), then that question is the capper …

As an ex-Yank (I hold dual citizenship, but consider myself Canadian through and through), I wonder if it isn’t all those years of pledging allegiance to the flag and singing America The Beautiful while the anti-communist drums beat in the background. I remember <vividly the day when the Soviets put down the Poles and Hungarians – I think I was 16 at the time, and a true-blue, right-wing Yankee kid – I wondered how our great nation, with God on its side and all, with its great paranoia about the Communist Menace could possibly even CONSIDER not going to the aid of these folks with immediate military intervention. That’s the way my mind worked, after years of daily indoctrination (and yes, I still love America, and still have deep respect for its institutions…) into the Shining Way. I grew up in a republican family, and we certainly knew who the Bad Guys were… now that the communists have self-destructed, perhaps our Yankee bretherin have nothing left to worry about but the Socialist Hoardes. Gotta have somebody to be afraid of, eh? Of all my American friends – folks I grew up with and maintained close ties with for most of my life – ask the same question every time I visit California: "Don’t you have socialized medicine?" Pronounce SOCIALIZED with appropriate disdain and you have it down pat. They seem incapable of comprehending a system that works without oppressing the citizenry. Perhaps its just a hangover from the Fifties, when we had bomb drills every week, or the Sixties, where most of us vividly recall the Cuban missile crisis, when we all expected the Bomb to drop at any moment… living in a prime area repleat with Naval Air stations (Moffat Field), microtechnology (Lockheed MSD had initiated the birthing pains of Silicon Valley by then, and many of us who worked there had no illusions about being prime targets. The sad fact that the Santa Clara Valley was being systematically and utterly destroyed bothered us not at all; in retrospect, I think we worried about the wrong stuff…) Really, why don’t you hear Canadians coming out on the side of those who criticise our fiduciary system?  Hell, we’d be happy for all the attention in the U.S. media! (-;   So far, nobody’s begging for an "Operation Arctic Storm" to liberate us (Canadians) from universal basic health coverage yet … (-; (-; (-;

For all of our financial woes, and our propensity to elect the most inept politicians in the nation, the truth is that Canadians are a pretty happy lot, quite smug in their warm backwater, and so they should be – they have it made. God Bless the Queen —       === The Old Frog’s Almanac, Vancouver Island, Canada === Public Access UseNet for Central Vancouver Island via SCO XENIX 2.3.2GT   Waffle v1.64: (604) 758-9698 HST v32bis, (604) 758-6208(x4) 2400’s    ~!ubc-cs!mala!oneb!kmcvay         Free Access to Validated Users

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I and others from the frozen north have pointed out is a similiar look and feel system to America’s.  We never gave up our choice of doctors nor our access and …        "look and feel" isn’t the issue.  It’s the monolithic behemoth behind that facade that concerns us. I cannot agree that that’s a problem on _this_ side of the border.

Right, Ken!  Actually, I’ve found that in cocktail conversations with people down here, there mere question "If things are the way that you claim they are, in Canada and Europe, why is it not an issue there??? And you don’t hear any complaints from other Canadians in this room, let alone Marie-Pierre or Lars-Erik over there?" (we live in a great international dorm, about 1/3 Americans) If the facts how things work don’t anger them enough, not hearing what they wanted (often shaking what they’ve read from wherever), then that question is the capper … Really, why don’t you hear Canadians coming out on the side of those who criticise our fiduciary system?  Hell, we’d be happy for all the attention in the U.S. media! (-;   So far, nobody’s begging for an "Operation Arctic Storm" to liberate us (Canadians) from universal basic health coverage yet … (-; (-; (-; gld — Gary L. Dare                            The number of Canadians who — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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   How long have you been in the US?  Have you ever seen a VA or Gov run hospital?  Will you still support the view that the government isn’t running (and messing up) the health care in those facilities?

The government doesn’t run our hospitals, it simply provides funding at various levels – the comparison isn’t fair or even close to accurate, from what I’ve seen of Canadian hospitals in the past 35 years.    What about government funded family planning clinics?  Is denial of the ability to even *talk* about a procedure a germane issue?    I and many others think so.

Sounds to me as if the problem isn’t with universal medical care, but with your government. the only references you dudes base your commentary upon outside of misleading (if not fabricated) anecdotes about Canada’s system, which I and others from the frozen north have pointed out is a similiar look and feel system to America’s.  We never gave up our choice of doctors nor our access and I certainly hope you guys will remind your peers not to either when faced against the lawyer, doctor-owned labs, and insurance weasels.    "look and feel" isn’t the issue.  It’s the monolithic behemoth behind that facade that concerns us.

I cannot agree that that’s a problem on _this_ side of the border. —       === The Old Frog’s Almanac, Vancouver Island, Canada === Public Access UseNet for Central Vancouver Island via SCO XENIX 2.3.2GT   Waffle v1.64: (604) 758-9698 HST v32bis, (604) 758-6208(x4) 2400’s    ~!ubc-cs!mala!oneb!kmcvay         Free Access to Validated Users

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Quotes from Letters to the Editor, New York Times, March 1/92: "Canadians receive less of only a handful of elective high-technology services, like coronary bypass surgery, which is clearly overused in the United States.    We’re sorry Mr. Smith, we know you are having a coranary, but it has come to our attention that bypass surgery is "overused".  If you’ll wait it out, you might live.    Gee, thanks.    Not.

Recent studies show that the outcomes for elective or non-emergency heart surgery in Canada where there is perhaps some delay are better than in the U.S. where there is no delay.  Hasty surgery may not be the best medicine in all cases, or so it seems.  As our General Accounting Office has documented, there are virtually no waiting lists for emergency surgery in Canada. A fair evaluation would state that American are more likely to die from unneeded surgery than Canadians to die on a waiting list."    How long have you been in the US?  Have you ever seen a VA or Gov run hospital?  Will you still support the view that the government isn’t running (and messing up) the health care in those facilities?

Canadian hospitals are more like private hospitals in the US than they are like the VA.  Our health insurance system is basically just a publically administered HMO…Americans don’t consider HMO’s socialized medicine. Gerald

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        Posting a "Canada is not bad" eliminates the need to prove it?  I have the numbers, I have the facts.  In the USA you will *not* die because you need an expensive procedure.  In Canada, you might.  I’ll take the former. Bullshit!  People die all the time because they can’t afford health care.  Many die because they do not get routine care, and develop life-threatening illnesses that could have been prevented. I also remember a story from Oregon a few years back.  A young boy needed a liver transplant.  Insurance would not cover it, because it is an "experimental procedure".  The hospital refused to schedule the surgery until the family raised $100,000 to cover the costs.  The boy died before the money could be found.

        Experimental procedures will always be the exception.  What you should be concentrating on is why didn’t that family have health care?  Was it a conscious choice not to have it?  Were they trapped in the quagmire of welfare? Did they fail to get an education while it was being offered to them?         On a related note, should that procedure (which no doubt was discounted to $100k) simply be performed and everyone elses bill be raised?  How about the people who would die because of that?         One of the reasons US health care costs are rising so fast is the proliferation of high cost treatments which sap resources from primary and preventive care.         And just what would have been the result in Canada?  Death by waiting list? Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

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       Back to comparing mainstream treatments: in the US you will get those treatments, either through your health care or by visiting the emergency room to get treatment.  In Canada, you might wait…possibly too long. Quotes from Letters to the Editor, New York Times, March 1/92: "Canadians receive less of only a handful of elective high-technology services, like coronary bypass surgery, which is clearly overused in the United States.

        We’re sorry Mr. Smith, we know you are having a coranary, but it has come to our attention that bypass surgery is "overused".  If you’ll wait it out, you might live.         Gee, thanks.         Not.  As our General Accounting Office has documented, there are virtually no waiting lists for emergency surgery in Canada. A fair evaluation would state that American are more likely to die from unneeded surgery than Canadians to die on a waiting list."

        More Americans are likely to die behind the wheel also, which is about as relevant. "What Canada provides is a good basic service.  If you need it, you get it.  If you don’t, you might wait.  

        I think this next statement says it all, especially for all the US people with heart conditions: A friend waited two years for a triple bypass.  

        Of course if he had died, his family would have been consoled with: "but if he was in America, he might have died on the table."         Gee, thanks doc.         Not. When his doctor decided he should wait no longer, he was put at the top of the list and had his surgery two days later.

        Which completely avoids the issue of *why* there is a list at all.  It also contradicts the good doctors previous letter, but we’ll ignore that breach of reality. These are decisions that have to be made by those capable of making them, not by politicians interested only in getting elected or reelected, doctors interested in lining their pockets, or insurance companies interested in the same thing.  In orther words, the people should make the decision."

        I agree with this part.  It’s amazing how far apart we are on how to implement it. On the other hand, You et al presuppose a direct state-controlled health care apparatus that may exist in some Third World and Eastern bloc countries.  Those are NOT the PASSIVE fiduciary health insurance funds run by other western-G7-market-oriented-democracies like Canada or in the EC.  Health care is NOT provided by the government!!!  Note

        How long have you been in the US?  Have you ever seen a VA or Gov run hospital?  Will you still support the view that the government isn’t running (and messing up) the health care in those facilities?         What about government funded family planning clinics?  Is denial of the ability to even *talk* about a procedure a germane issue?         I and many others think so. that (betcha you won’t!) doctors run their own practices, and we have private-like hospitals where they can be run with competant boards and supported by foundations (just like the Vanderbilts and the Astors of New York, with our Mount Sinai and Sloan-Kettering …)

        And here in the US we have for-free health clinics. I live in New York City and know well the kind of public enterprise nightmare that Ron Dippold and Stupe envision … however, those are

        NYC has always been described as government run amok.  It is interesting to see it blamed on free enterprise.  Are you aware of the number of regulations necessary to even set up shop in NYC?  About the number of gov. officials palms that must be crossed with money before a needed permit is issued?         It’s a wee bit easier than getting a Taxi medallion. the only references you dudes base your commentary upon outside of misleading (if not fabricated) anecdotes about Canada’s system, which I and others from the frozen north have pointed out is a similiar look and feel system to America’s.  We never gave up our choice of doctors nor our access and I certainly hope you guys will remind your peers not to either when faced against the lawyer, doctor-owned labs, and insurance weasels.

        "look and feel" isn’t the issue.  It’s the monolithic behemoth behind that facade that concerns us. Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Posting a "Canada is not bad" eliminates the need to prove it?  I have the numbers, I have the facts.  In the USA you will *not* die because you need an expensive procedure.  In Canada, you might.  I’ll take the former. Bullshit!  People die all the time because they can’t afford health care.  Many die because they do not get routine care, and develop life-threatening illnesses that could have been prevented. I also remember a story from Oregon a few years back.  A young boy needed a liver transplant.  Insurance would not cover it, because it is an "experimental procedure".  The hospital refused to schedule the surgery until the family raised $100,000 to cover the costs.  The boy died before the money could be found.    Experimental procedures will always be the exception.  What you should be concentrating on is why didn’t that family have health care?  Was it a conscious choice not to have it?  Were they trapped in the quagmire of welfare? Did they fail to get an education while it was being offered to them?    On a related note, should that procedure (which no doubt was discounted to $100k) simply be performed and everyone elses bill be raised?  How about the people who would die because of that?    One of the reasons US health care costs are rising so fast is the proliferation of high cost treatments which sap resources from primary and preventive care.    And just what would have been the result in Canada?  Death by waiting list? Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                            (Pick any two

I was responding to your comment that "In the U.S. you will *not* die because you need an expensive procedure" with a counterexample. As I recall from the news stories, this was an "average" middle-class family with health insurance.  I do not recall if they paid the premiums or got it trhough an employer, but that is irrelevant.  They were *not* on welfare, and were *not* uneducated. I agree there are too many instances where we spend many thousands of dollars to save one life, when the same money could save hundreds or even thousands of lives.  That is one problem with our system.  Note too, that if the family were wealthy, we would never had read about them in the newspaper, because they would have written a check to the hospital.  This was not an option for this family.  They had provided the best they could, given their resources, and it was not enough. And in Canada, assuming they cover liver transplants, this would not have been on the waiting list, because the condition was life-threatening.  You rail on about their system, but don’t seem to understand it. Health care costs are exploding in this country, and absorbing too much of the output of our economy.  You seem to disagree with the Canadian model.  That is fine, but do you have any alternatives?  Or should we just keep on the same path that threatens to bankrupt us? Jim McMaster

Response:

   Posting a "Canada is not bad" eliminates the need to prove it?  I have the numbers, I have the facts. In the USA you will *not* die because you need an expensive procedure.  In Canada, you might.  I’ll take the former.

Bullshit!  People die all the time because they can’t afford health care.  Many die because they do not get routine care, and develop life-threatening illnesses that could have been prevented. I also remember a story from Oregon a few years back.  A young boy needed a liver transplant.  Insurance would not cover it, because it is an "experimental procedure".  The hospital refused to schedule the surgery until the family raised $100,000 to cover the costs.  The boy died before the money could be found.

   Experimental procedures will always be the exception.  What you should be concentrating on is why didn’t that family have health care?  Was it a conscious choice not to have it?  Were they trapped in the quagmire of welfare? Did they fail to get an education while it was being offered to them?

Where did you get the idea that this family didn’t have health care? Obviously they had enough health care to diagnose the condition in the first place.  I assume that what you actually meant was health insurance; if I read the article correctly, the family *did* have health insurance, but it (like many policies) didn’t cover such transplants. Needless to say, insurance companies always have a strong interest in defining expensive procedures as "experimental" and, lo and behold, they do! In short: "In the U.S., you will *not* die because you need an expensive procedure." "But there are cases in which people have died because they couldn’t afford a particular procedure." "Yes, but what you should be concentrating on is why this family didn’t have health care." If your point is stupid and someone refutes it, change the subject. Brilliant strategy. Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                            (Pick any two

–  /  / mputer-      Your health care choices: |  |   | oky Science     immediate access, limited costs, high-tech medicine  _ _/ gnitive/            Pick any two.

Response:

   Posting a "Canada is not bad" eliminates the need to prove it?  I have the numbers, I have the facts.  In the USA you will *not* die because you need an expensive procedure.  In Canada, you might.  I’ll take the former.

Bullshit!  People die all the time because they can’t afford health care.  Many die because they do not get routine care, and develop life-threatening illnesses that could have been prevented. I also remember a story from Oregon a few years back.  A young boy needed a liver transplant.  Insurance would not cover it, because it is an "experimental procedure".  The hospital refused to schedule the surgery until the family raised $100,000 to cover the costs.  The boy died before the money could be found. Jim McMaster

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   US hospitals are almost universally for-profit organizations where that type of behaviour is expected.  Socialistic health care supposedly ensures adequate funding.  It appears that is not the case.    So, in effect, the Canadian hospitals are just like US hospitals. Except the Candian ones have waiting lists….    So, tell me why I should bankroll a bureaucracy to run the hospitals here just like they are now, except with a lower level of service?

Most people in Canada don’t believe our level of surface is a lower level…our health outcomes is much better than the U.S…longer life-expectancy…lower infant mortality rate. Your fast level of service which is not universally accessible leads to trigger happy surgeons who perform a lot of unnecessary operations with often little or none or negative health benefits. Outcome studies are now showing, for example, that elective and non-emergency heart patients, who might experience minor delays in Canada, have better long term outcomes than Americans who have on the spot surgery…and this does not include those who cannot afford the surgery at all in the U.S. Gerald

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … And, there is also a private aspect to Canadian hospitals; almost all of them have their own fundraising wings and local names that go to their events, donate money, buy souvenir sweatshirts, etc. (every one of our universities are public, too, but their raised endowment funds are their own to use). If they are adequately funded, why do they need additional fundraising? For the extras, and for research.  You mean that American hospitals don’t do that? (-;  I wonder why I get mailings from Memorial Sloan- Kettering, then … Also, you may want to call Mrs. Brooke Astor at the Astor Foundation on the Upper East Side and ask her what she does during her day, then.

        US hospitals are almost universally for-profit organizations where that type of behaviour is expected.  Socialistic health care supposedly ensures adequate funding.  It appears that is not the case.         So, in effect, the Canadian hospitals are just like US hospitals. Except the Candian ones have waiting lists….         So, tell me why I should bankroll a bureaucracy to run the hospitals here just like they are now, except with a lower level of service? Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

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… And, there is also a private aspect to Canadian hospitals; almost all of them have their own fundraising wings and local names that go to their events, donate money, buy souvenir sweatshirts, etc. (every one of our universities are public, too, but their raised endowment funds are their own to use). If they are adequately funded, why do they need additional fundraising?

For the extras, and for research.  You mean that American hospitals don’t do that? (-;  I wonder why I get mailings from Memorial Sloan- Kettering, then … Also, you may want to call Mrs. Brooke Astor at the Astor Foundation on the Upper East Side and ask her what she does during her day, then. gld — Gary L. Dare                            The number of Canadians who — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        Gee, seems like someone who is having a massive heart attack is in much more *need* than someone who needs their tonsils removed. But, in Canada, you have a much better chance of being in a hospital for something like tonsilitis than you do for heart bypass surgery. Gotta stretch those rationed dollars you know….        Outrite lies???  Do you or do you not have to wait to get bypass surgery in Canada????        You do have to wait. Do you or do you not have to wait to get bypass urgery in the U.S.? Usually you do too (if you can even get to do) unless you’ve got lots of cash and/or incredible coverage.  I even wonder if anyone reading USENET has *that* …

        No, you don’t have to wait.  (Not on a waiting list, maybe for the surgeon to schedule you…         I don’t know about you, but my health care covers any procedure needed up to $2 million per illness.  The only exemptions are for experimental procedures, and even those are covered up to $200k. As many *Canadians* have pointed out, most of these procedures are not something you need immediately.  The gravely sick and injured are given immediate attention, and anything otherwise would be beyond reason.

        I think the issue can be settled once and for all by publishing the % of people who die while on waiting lists in Canada. Like the $50,000 offer (-; these guys keep coming back again and again when they think the coast is clear …  so last week’s articles are gone from your local buffer and thus, from reality?

        Posting a "Canada is not bad" eliminates the need to prove it?  I have the numbers, I have the facts.  In the USA you will *not* die because you need an expensive procedure.  In Canada, you might.  I’ll take the former. In the past two months, my mother had undergone treatment for liver cancer and she has breezed through the system.  She got a room on the spot in paliative care when they decided to keep her for a few days of observation.  

        That’s nice to hear, but I think we were talking about heart disease… A common, and deadly disease.  One which saps enormous resources, and thus creates shortages of care.  I think liver cancer is much more rare…. … And, there is also a private aspect to Canadian hospitals; almost all of them have their own fundraising wings and local names that go to their events, donate money, buy souvenir sweatshirts, etc. (every one of our universities are public, too, but their raised endowment funds are their own to use).

        If they are adequately funded, why do they need additional fundraising? …[story about "who you know" getting you better treatment]

        My uncle knew no one at the hospital, yet still received the best care they could give. Supplementary health plans for non-life threatening aspects abound in a free market.  Free market supplementary insurance plans to cover the non-life threatening frills (e.g., more expensive private rooms, a nice view, private ambulance transportion (not Emergency Services/ Urgences Sante’)) are picked and chosen by the buyer.

        Sure, private insurance is good, is it not? Until the arrival of HMO’s to the U.S., most people down here could not conceptualize how the Canadian or other European systems are set up (heck, when I tell them I’m from Winnipeg, I used to add "It’s a fair bit like Minneapolis …"!).  Visions of Ceausescu’s Roumanian system automatically comes to their minds (but then, Ole Nic did have/had universal access and portability).  People are talking about the Canadian system as a federal entity when, in fact, it’s not; they are provincial HMO’s funded federally along general guidelines.

        No one I know is comparing Canada’s health care to Eastern Europe.   More like Washington D.C. Much of the propoganda depends highly on America’s northern blind spot; literally, the ignorance of most people vis-a-vis Canada and lack of access to any data sources down her to confirm or deny wild assertions.  Last month, a woman from the Bush Administration said that Canada’s way works because its population is 20 times smaller … in fact, the proper factor is *11*.  (I’m glad that she wasn’t on the IEEE committee for floating point rounding errors!  (-;)

        Bush keeps saying he beat Buchanan by 18%, no doubt it will rise to %20 before long….         In any event, bureaucracies have proven to be spectacular failures in the US.  Bureacracizing health care will have the same net effect that bureacracizing federal aid plans has.  It will create a monster system that takes more money to run that in provides in care.         If you want universal care, don’t require any insurance.  If you want to keep costs down, limit expensive equipment by region, make hospitals not-for-profit, limit malpractice awards, ….         The answer is not, and never will be, creating a bureaucracy. Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

Response:

   Gee, seems like someone who is having a massive heart attack is in much more *need* than someone who needs their tonsils removed. But, in Canada, you have a much better chance of being in a hospital for something like tonsilitis than you do for heart bypass surgery. Gotta stretch those rationed dollars you know….    Outrite lies???  Do you or do you not have to wait to get bypass surgery in Canada????    You do have to wait.

Do you or do you not have to wait to get bypass urgery in the U.S.? Usually you do too (if you can even get to do) unless you’ve got lots of cash and/or incredible coverage.  I even wonder if anyone reading USENET has *that* … As many *Canadians* have pointed out, most of these procedures are not something you need immediately.  The gravely sick and injured are given immediate attention, and anything otherwise would be beyond reason. Like the $50,000 offer (-; these guys keep coming back again and again when they think the coast is clear …  so last week’s articles are gone from your local buffer and thus, from reality? In the past two months, my mother had undergone treatment for liver cancer and she has breezed through the system.  She got a room on the spot in paliative care when they decided to keep her for a few days of observation.  We had access to an oncologist for Mum as quickly as did a lawyer-friend’s wife on the Upper East Side here in New York.  Tests took one week maximum, usually two days.  This is in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Manitoba. And, there is also a private aspect to Canadian hospitals; almost all of them have their own fundraising wings and local names that go to their events, donate money, buy souvenir sweatshirts, etc. (every one of our universities are public, too, but their raised endowment funds are their own to use).  As for pull, knowing somebody is no better or worse than here in America or overseas.  My mother had probably seen a day here and a day there cut from her liver cancer treatment by one of my father’s high school buddies being an M.D.  affiliated with Winnipeg’s most private-like hospital, along with boosts from a retired lawyer friend being on the hospital board raising funds for the small-scale cancer research unit there (our family’s restaurant was part of a pool that donated food to caterers hired to serve at hospital fundraisers).  This isn’t too different from what my fiancee’s father did in New Jersey when she had to have a back condition treated two summers ago … all of the above was done with our own personal choice.  Other doctors and hospitals in the Yellow Pages were open, but long ago my parents knew a good deal with L’Hopital-St. Boniface Hospital when their friends got them into the loop.  Our only contact with government bureaucracy was pulling Mom’s provincial HMO and private supplementary insurance cards and handing it to the admissions nurse-clerk. Supplementary health plans for non-life threatening aspects abound in a free market.  Free market supplementary insurance plans to cover the non-life threatening frills (e.g., more expensive private rooms, a nice view, private ambulance transportion (not Emergency Services/ Urgences Sante’)) are picked and chosen by the buyer. Until the arrival of HMO’s to the U.S., most people down here could not conceptualize how the Canadian or other European systems are set up (heck, when I tell them I’m from Winnipeg, I used to add "It’s a fair bit like Minneapolis …"!).  Visions of Ceausescu’s Roumanian system automatically comes to their minds (but then, Ole Nic did have/had universal access and portability).  People are talking about the Canadian system as a federal entity when, in fact, it’s not; they are provincial HMO’s funded federally along general guidelines. Much of the propoganda depends highly on America’s northern blind spot; literally, the ignorance of most people vis-a-vis Canada and lack of access to any data sources down her to confirm or deny wild assertions.  Last month, a woman from the Bush Administration said that Canada’s way works because its population is 20 times smaller … in fact, the proper factor is *11*.  (I’m glad that she wasn’t on the IEEE committee for floating point rounding errors!  (-;) gld — Gary L. Dare                            The number of Canadians who — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

        Evidently ANU-NEWS posted the article again, instead of the edited reply.  Here it is: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -… As many *Canadians* have pointed out, most of these procedures are not something you need immediately.  On the other hand, the lackings of       I beg to differ.  My uncle just had a heart attack.  One artery was 100% blocked, the other 99%.  He needed angioplasty and he needed it *right then and there*.  Could he have gotten that in Canada? … See the quote at the top. A *rational* system rations — to the extent that any society with a finite amount of resources must ration(*) — by Need, not by Bank Account Size / Blue Blood-ness, precisely what opponents of national health care advocate, and precisely what has been the case in this country for years.

        Gee, seems like someone who is having a massive heart attack is in much more *need* than someone who needs their tonsils removed.  But, in Canada, you have a much better chance of being in a hospital for something like tonsilitis than you do for heart bypass surgery.  Gotta stretch those rationed dollars you know…. If Brett’s father [uncle] was among the 37 million uninsured Americans in the U.S. he would no doubt have been in serious trouble. If Brett’s father

        Not at all.  No hospital in the US can turn away an emergency patient. [uncle] had the audacity to be among the millions of poor Americans, e.g. with Medicaid, he would have been in very serious trouble indeed. The HEALTH INSURANC file avialable from the Archiver notes:     Uninsured patients and those on Medicaid were less likely to     receive three common treatment for heart disease than those with     insurance, a study of 37,994 people [found]

        Now we’re talking about treatments, like nitro patches, and not emergency services.  And the reason "poor" people on medicare/caid are getting less medicince is because of those systems, and not the evil US private insurance companies. There was something else mentioned in the In Health article (not yet in the archived file). They did a study for heart patients on waiting lists in Canada, and their survival rates. They found so-and-so many Canadians, over the N years, did die while on the waiting list for the operation.

        Looks like that’s so and so too many. However, the mortality rate for the given operation, as it turned out, was hight! In other words, if all those patients had gotten *instant* surgery, spending zero time on the waiting list, *less* of them would have been expected to be alive after those N years (in fact, less of them, following the operation presumably).

        Mr. Smith, you have to wait until next year for surgery.  The good news is you might die if we operate.         Gosh, sign me up now!!!! This goes to show that while the U.S. has a massive problem of over-use of expensive treatments and surgery, even Canada has some improvement to do in this regard. But it also shows that the scare-tactics about waiting lines in Canada are so often distortions if not outright lies. Again: you can ration by $$$ or you can ration by need — Canadian with the most urgent medical needs and most serious problems get treated before everyone else.

        Outrite lies???  Do you or do you not have to wait to get bypass surgery in Canada????         You do have to wait. In the U.S., people with grave illnesses but Not Enough Money suffer by the millions while the elites classes can afford, "ahead of them in line" the most capricious, minor, or cosmetic treatments.

        That’s a problem with the doctors deciding to do plastic surgery instead of family health care. But there is a more fundamental issue here, a more fundamental level on which the wait-in-line horror stories are disinformation.

        ???  Do you or do you not have to wait for surgery in Canada?  You do, especially if the costs are high.         Get an education, get a good job, pay for insurance.  If you have a problem with education or job skills, get help.  It’s there.  Don’t expect me to pay for your parties throughout high school and college.  Don’t expect me to pay for your lack of initiative.  You can, however, expect me to help get you an education and job training.         The difference is that of being given a fish and being taught to fish.         The US does not need a gigantic, socialistic bureaucracy to administer health insurance.  If universal coverage is the goal, *why have insurance at all*?????         Now, an easy way to cover those most at risk is to make needed (as opposed to things like cosmetic surgery and liposuction health care free to those under 18 and over 65.         It would be fairly easy to add doctors to the staffs of school districts.  Viola, free health care for the kids.  Preschoolers can be covered at day care centers and family doctors.         For those over sixty-five, simply exchange medicare/caid for public health centers run by not-for-profit private firms.  (The same can be done with hospitals.)  These centers can also be set up in poor neighborhoods until the welfare system is replaced with workfare and we get the people working again.         Finally, quit handing out millions for malpractice.  There is simply no need to give people money to punish the doctor.  He simply turns the bill over to his insurance carrier, who charges everyone a little bit more to cover the bill.  Kind of like a ghoulish lottery.         Cover the medical costs, fire the doctor and strip his/her license, but don’t charge the rest of us.  I can garauntee that fear of job loss is a better preventer of negligent malpractice than higher insurance premiums.         So, creating yet another bureaucracy is not the way to go!  Smarter administration is. Brett Proconsul Computer Consulting                                            CHING! Better, Cheaper, Faster                                        (Pick any two

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