Question:

WARNING:  this ended up being …well, a GOOD bit longer than I first imagined it being!  I guess that’s what studying negotiable instruments can do to you — make you want to write about something else forever. I’m 24 and just graduated this past May with an accounting degree.  I am scheduled to take a few sections of the CPA within the next few weeks and months.  Thus, I have been spending my time since graduation studying for CPA sections.  My plan was to pass all sections within 6 months, but I haven’t even taken one yet due to some bad time-management decisions that are now straightened out for the most part, but the parents are getting somewhat annoyed (as am I) that I’m actually *STILL* here.  I guess I just found it difficult to concentrate sometimes when it was (still is though) just me and CPA review material and all this time until I test.  It’s just hard to get the motivation to prepare for a test when the test always seems to be months away (thankfully that’s no longer true, as I take Regulation Feb 28th, which I should be studying for now).  I know some may say I have it easy living at home, but I’d rather be working, as I think it’d motivate me more.  But, regardless of whether or not I pass exam sections, I will fairly soon be forced to pick up at least a part time job doing just about anything I can.  I’ve sent resumes out to a couple of local places, but no response.  My overall college GPA was 3.1, with 150 hours, even though I’m still lacking two classes (advanced cost and advanced financial) to meet the education requirement for licensing in my state.  Of course, licensing is (obviously) not even close to being the most relevant thing to me right now. However, I still have a couple of problems.  First, for anyone who actually looks at my transcript, my grades have quite a large variation.  To make a long story short, I did really well my first two years of college, but I had 2 or 3 fairly poor semesters my last three years in college, and the rest of my semesters during my last three years were average, unless you count summer school or my very last semester (in which I made Dean’s list…end with a bang ya know). However, I did very well in some key classes, such as Intermediate Corporate Finance for finance majors and Financial Accounting 2 (A’s in both).  I’m probably best with financial accounting, as it seems to come somewhat naturally to me, at least when I give a somewhat decent effort.  However, on a side not, I had an incredibly difficult time with my systems class.  Financial Accounting 2 was so very easy to me compared to systems.  I guess I should have spent more time trying to learn it, but my flowcharts and data-flow diagrams never seemed to come out quite right.  I hope to improve myself in this area, as I think it’s important, but it just seems so hard to do without being in the real world. Anyway, after all this procrastination, I guess this brings us to the first question: do accounting firms always look at college transcripts?  Also, assuming the answer to that is yes, I assume a 3.1 is generally not good enough for a middle-tier firm (and obviously not for large ones I would think), especially with the variation in my grades. Another problem is that my only work experience has been work as a summer hire for the federal government 3 different summers during high school and college.  It wasn’t related to accounting.  I would have worked somewhere doing accounting work during other summers, but I had to take classes.  And, yes, I suppose I was a lazy undergraduate.  But just because I was lazy then, doesn’t mean I always will be.  However, I realize an accounting firm is most likely NOT going to be wanting to interview me with a 3.1 and no work experience.  Also, I realize that I did not go through the proper channels.  I was actually invited to a Beta Alpha Psi meeting (even after one of my horrible semesters) and I realize that most people who get jobs with accounting firms do so through that or through people they know.  I didn’t really know anybody, and I think the professors actually didn’t like me too much (if they even knew who I was or cared) because I really sometimes would not try very hard. Anyway, let’s get to the point. There are two plans I have devised.  Which one would do you think is better based on your knowledge of how the accounting world works? 1)  Start working doing whatever I can find, accounting or not accounting, take my CPA sections, and also study for and take the GMAT.  My school uses a formula (based on GPA and GMAT) for an unconditional acceptance into its graduate program, and, with my GPA, I would need a 580 on the GMAT in order to get an acceptance into its program.  I’ve taken a practice GMAT before (one from the official site), and 580 is not out of my range, especially if I study for the math part.  I could enroll this fall, and save up tuition money by working through the summer.  Of course, the problem is I would definitely need to have a part time job in graduate school, as I doubt the loan money would get me far enough (although perhaps it could, as I am incredibly low maintenance in most areas, except food).  Ironically, I think my verbal section came in at a much higher percentile, but that’s probably because I haven’t seen geometry or dealt with permutations, factoring, prime numbers, sequences, etc. in YEARS. OR I could 2)  Forget graduate school, keep sending my resume to places –all kinds of places all over the country, not just here in my city– and keep trying to pass my CPA exam sections, all the while finding work in whatever I can find as in section 1. 3)  Ditch the accounting profession (I don’t plan on this option). Ok, back to negotiable instruments.

Response:

I’m going to top post since the OP is so long. When I was an undergrad, I was advised to find work in the field right away and work on graduate studies as I worked/gained experience.  I was told that it would be more difficult getting entry level positions with a higher degree because pay based upon experience versus pay based upon education would never mesh.  So that is what I am doing and, thus far, it has been to my benefit as my employer is paying for my classes and will probably also pay for my CPA exam.  Besides that, it  is quite helpful to have some practical experience when in graduate classes. A 3.1 GPA is not incredibly bad and I have never had a potential employer ask me for my transcript, only my GPA.  If I were you, my resume would present the GPA, but also present how you excelled in the courses in which you did.  Be sure to include talents you have that could be related to business, but aren’t necessarily related to accounting as well.  I got my current position partially because I was the editor for my college newspaper for a year and I had designed a few web sites.  Guess what?  I work on our web site and edit all important documents in addition to my accounting duties. Don’t underestimate working before you shell out the dollars for all of the CPA exam and for graduate studies.  A good employer may pay for these for you.  Don’t just take a job, any job, unless it is needed for survival.  Work hard to get your foot in the door in accounting. If lack of experience is causing closed doors, consider volunteering to do some accounting (the VITA program, local churches, etc…) to gain a little experience. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -WARNING:  this ended up being …well, a GOOD bit longer than I first imagined it being!  I guess that’s what studying negotiable instruments can do to you — make you want to write about something else forever. I’m 24 and just graduated this past May with an accounting degree.  I am scheduled to take a few sections of the CPA within the next few weeks and months.  Thus, I have been spending my time since graduation studying for CPA sections.  My plan was to pass all sections within 6 months, but I haven’t even taken one yet due to some bad time-management decisions that are now straightened out for the most part, but the parents are getting somewhat annoyed (as am I) that I’m actually *STILL* here.  I guess I just found it difficult to concentrate sometimes when it was (still is though) just me and CPA review material and all this time until I test.  It’s just hard to get the motivation to prepare for a test when the test always seems to be months away (thankfully that’s no longer true, as I take Regulation Feb 28th, which I should be studying for now).  I know some may say I have it easy living at home, but I’d rather be working, as I think it’d motivate me more.  But, regardless of whether or not I pass exam sections, I will fairly soon be forced to pick up at least a part time job doing just about anything I can.  I’ve sent resumes out to a couple of local places, but no response.  My overall college GPA was 3.1, with 150 hours, even though I’m still lacking two classes (advanced cost and advanced financial) to meet the education requirement for licensing in my state.  Of course, licensing is (obviously) not even close to being the most relevant thing to me right now. However, I still have a couple of problems.  First, for anyone who actually looks at my transcript, my grades have quite a large variation.  To make a long story short, I did really well my first two years of college, but I had 2 or 3 fairly poor semesters my last three years in college, and the rest of my semesters during my last three years were average, unless you count summer school or my very last semester (in which I made Dean’s list…end with a bang ya know). However, I did very well in some key classes, such as Intermediate Corporate Finance for finance majors and Financial Accounting 2 (A’s in both).  I’m probably best with financial accounting, as it seems to come somewhat naturally to me, at least when I give a somewhat decent effort.  However, on a side not, I had an incredibly difficult time with my systems class.  Financial Accounting 2 was so very easy to me compared to systems.  I guess I should have spent more time trying to learn it, but my flowcharts and data-flow diagrams never seemed to come out quite right.  I hope to improve myself in this area, as I think it’s important, but it just seems so hard to do without being in the real world. Anyway, after all this procrastination, I guess this brings us to the first question: do accounting firms always look at college transcripts?  Also, assuming the answer to that is yes, I assume a 3.1 is generally not good enough for a middle-tier firm (and obviously not for large ones I would think), especially with the variation in my grades. Another problem is that my only work experience has been work as a summer hire for the federal government 3 different summers during high school and college.  It wasn’t related to accounting.  I would have worked somewhere doing accounting work during other summers, but I had to take classes.  And, yes, I suppose I was a lazy undergraduate.  But just because I was lazy then, doesn’t mean I always will be.  However, I realize an accounting firm is most likely NOT going to be wanting to interview me with a 3.1 and no work experience.  Also, I realize that I did not go through the proper channels.  I was actually invited to a Beta Alpha Psi meeting (even after one of my horrible semesters) and I realize that most people who get jobs with accounting firms do so through that or through people they know.  I didn’t really know anybody, and I think the professors actually didn’t like me too much (if they even knew who I was or cared) because I really sometimes would not try very hard. Anyway, let’s get to the point. There are two plans I have devised.  Which one would do you think is better based on your knowledge of how the accounting world works? 1)  Start working doing whatever I can find, accounting or not accounting, take my CPA sections, and also study for and take the GMAT. My school uses a formula (based on GPA and GMAT) for an unconditional acceptance into its graduate program, and, with my GPA, I would need a 580 on the GMAT in order to get an acceptance into its program.  I’ve taken a practice GMAT before (one from the official site), and 580 is not out of my range, especially if I study for the math part.  I could enroll this fall, and save up tuition money by working through the summer.  Of course, the problem is I would definitely need to have a part time job in graduate school, as I doubt the loan money would get me far enough (although perhaps it could, as I am incredibly low maintenance in most areas, except food).  Ironically, I think my verbal section came in at a much higher percentile, but that’s probably because I haven’t seen geometry or dealt with permutations, factoring, prime numbers, sequences, etc. in YEARS. OR I could 2)  Forget graduate school, keep sending my resume to places –all kinds of places all over the country, not just here in my city– and keep trying to pass my CPA exam sections, all the while finding work in whatever I can find as in section 1. 3)  Ditch the accounting profession (I don’t plan on this option). Ok, back to negotiable instruments.

Response:

 You mean to tell me you’ve been doing nothing but studying for the CPA exam 9 months?  Or at least supposed to be studying.  You need to get a job in the accounting profession right away.  How are you going to explain the past 9 months in a job interview?  Passing the CPA exam and getting a Master’s degree are important things, but you should be taking care of those things after hours.  Getting experience right now is the best thing you can do for yourself. Preston

Response:

Question:

In addition to epinions, where is a good place to get word out on on truly dishonest and unresponsive conduct by a resort and some of its accounting staff? – in this case the Wyndham Rose Hall resort in Montego Bay, Jamaica. (my account below).  Thanks —- Six months ago I was there for a week of business conference, and haven’t been there before or since.  This month a phone charge (about 40USD) appeared on my AMEX account for a call I obviously didn’t make (to somewhere in New Jersey).  This doesn’t happen by accident. Now I have to either change my AMEX account or vigilantly scan my bill every month to ensure more charges do not appear.  This is not my only experience to report. While there a business associate left a package for me at the desk (two bottles of liquor).  Of course it was nowhere to be found when I went to pick it up. Then upon checkout I found many extra and redundant charges.  I barely had enough time to argue, have them removed, and make it to the airport on time. Staying at the Wyndham Rose Hall in Montego Bay, Jamaica was by far the worst hospitality experience of my life, and the effects are still coming to my AMEX account. By the way, I called them to ask how the phone charge happened.  They said to send a fax, and someone would get back to me and explain.  I did so just out of curiosity, but of course no response at all. After the bogus phone charge, stolen liquor, extra/redundant charges, and lack of response on this inquiry, I wonder if there is an honest person working at the place. If anyone doubts my claim of dishonest phone charge, I can email a scanned copy of the bill.

Response:

It depends how hell bent you are on getting the word out. Why not register a domain name (wyndhamsucks, wyndhamlies.com etc) and put your report up there? You could put your bill, your transcripts etc. Emailing them the site address might push things along a little bit.

Response:

It’s not a crusade and I certainly don’t have that much time. Re emailing them the site, I couldn’t even get them to respond to my inquiry on bogus phone charge.  I don’t expect them to respond as a better managed property would. But a few posts on sites could alert other visitors.

It depends how hell bent you are on getting the word out. Why not register a domain name (wyndhamsucks, wyndhamlies.com etc) and put your report up there? You could put your bill, your transcripts etc. Emailing them the site address might push things along a little bit.

Response:

The Southern Region Chapter of the American Sociaty of Travel Agents (ASTA) just completed their conference there, haven’t heard of complaints…

Response:

I do not suggest every person or group has experiences like mine, nor do I think my experiences were isolated incidents. Also I would suspect they would be on their best behavior with such a group, no?

The Southern Region Chapter of the American Sociaty of Travel Agents (ASTA) just completed their conference there, haven’t heard of complaints…

Response:

Welcome to Jamaica Mon ! We fix problem soon mon!  No problem mon!

Response:

Question:

I’ve seen so many instances of that I could write a book.  But then, I look for it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But auditors scored average or below for having "expertise in my industry," for maintaining "a staff we can rely on to provide the right advice," and for having "staff that are responsive to my needs." Also scoring low marks were auditors’ "capability to provide expert advice and insights on business risks associated with accounting treatments" and "competence in recommending the right level of financial controls," as well as having staff that is "competent in understanding complex financial structures used by some businesses."  But my thought is; What is the problem? Alleged fundamental incompetence. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com

Response:

But auditors scored average or below for having "expertise in my industry," for maintaining "a staff we can rely on to provide the right advice," and for having "staff that are responsive to my needs." Also scoring low marks were auditors’ "capability to provide expert advice and insights on business risks associated with accounting treatments" and "competence in recommending the right level of financial controls," as well as having staff that is "competent in understanding complex financial structures used by some businesses."  But my thought is; What is the problem?

Alleged fundamental incompetence. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

A I understand this, I take it the Corps are down hiring below the practitioners these days.  The other part of what they are saying, as I interpret it, is that the Corps has in place Controllers who are not competent to determine and implement an adequate level of internal controls.   Then the questions is, can this problem be fixed?  But my thought is; What is the problem? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For Competence, Accounting Gets a ‘D’ in Poll of Businesses By JANET WHITMAN DOW JONES NEWSWIRES NEW YORK — Businesses give the accounting profession a "D" grade, a new survey shows. But, even with the Enron Corp. mess, it isn’t accountants’ integrity that scores such low marks. Instead, the real cause for concern is a lack of competence, which is eroding customer satisfaction, according to the poll conducted by NFO WorldGroup, a New York financial-services-marketing firm. <snip But auditors scored average or below for having "expertise in my industry," for maintaining "a staff we can rely on to provide the right advice," and for having "staff that are responsive to my needs." Also scoring low marks were auditors’ "capability to provide expert advice and insights on business risks associated with accounting treatments" and "competence in recommending the right level of financial controls," as well as having staff that is "competent in understanding complex financial structures used by some businesses." http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1018393895577052760,00.html?mod=sp… This could be a worse problem than the scandals. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com

Response:

For Competence, Accounting Gets a ‘D’ in Poll of Businesses By JANET WHITMAN DOW JONES NEWSWIRES NEW YORK — Businesses give the accounting profession a "D" grade, a new survey shows. But, even with the Enron Corp. mess, it isn’t accountants’ integrity that scores such low marks. Instead, the real cause for concern is a lack of competence, which is eroding customer satisfaction, according to the poll conducted by NFO WorldGroup, a New York financial-services-marketing firm. <snip But auditors scored average or below for having "expertise in my industry," for maintaining "a staff we can rely on to provide the right advice," and for having "staff that are responsive to my needs." Also scoring low marks were auditors’ "capability to provide expert advice and insights on business risks associated with accounting treatments" and "competence in recommending the right level of financial controls," as well as having staff that is "competent in understanding complex financial structures used by some businesses." http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1018393895577052760,00.html?mod=sp… This could be a worse problem than the scandals. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Question:

Auditors knew Enron was in trouble THE WASHINGTON TIMES http://www.washtimes.com/national      Senior auditors at Arthur Andersen & Co., one of whom later ordered the destruction of Enron Corp. accounting documents, were told in August at a hastily called "emergency meeting" that Enron was in imminent danger of collapsing, congressional investigators said yesterday.      The Andersen auditors, including David B. Duncan, fired over his Oct. 23 order to destroy thousands of Enron e-mails and paper documents, were advised of the firm’s shaky financial condition at the Aug. 21 meeting at the accounting firm’s offices in Houston.      Mr. Duncan learned of Enron’s deteriorating financial condition from James A. Hecker, an Andersen auditor who had been contacted a day earlier by Enron Vice President Sherron Watkins, investigators said.      Mr. Hecker and Mrs. Watkins are friends and former co-workers.      Mrs. Watkins already had tried to warn Enron Chairman Kenneth L. Lay that the firm could "implode" because of its accounting practices.      "I realize that we have had a lot of smart people looking at this and a lot of accountants including AA&Co. [Arthur Andersen & Co.] have blessed the accounting treatment. None of that will protect Enron if these transactions are ever disclosed in the bright light of day," Mrs. Watkins wrote in an Aug. 15 memo.      At the Aug. 21 Houston meeting, called by Mr. Hecker, the Andersen officials decided to consult with the accounting firm’s legal department on what actions to take, investigators said.      Mr. Duncan was grilled about Andersen’s destruction of the Enron records yesterday for more than four hours by a bipartisan group of eight House Energy and Commerce Committee investigators.      He was not under oath, although he was warned against giving false testimony. There was no discussion of immunity.      "It’s now clear to us that key players at Andersen as well as Enron knew of the growing financial problems months before the company imploded," said Ken Johnson, spokesman for the House Energy and Commerce Committee. "We are satisfied that Mr. Duncan answered our questions and gave us valuable information that will help solve this growing controversy.      "He cooperated fully with our investigators," Mr. Johnson said, adding that committee investigators will be in Houston today and tomorrow interviewing Enron officials and securing additional documents.      Mr. Hecker, following his conversation with Mrs. Watkins, wrote a memo to an Andersen in-house file indicating that "based on our discussion, she appeared to have some good questions," investigators said. The memo listed as "bullets" several specific concerns Mrs. Watkins had over Enron’s ongoing accounting problems.      Despite the warnings issued by Mrs. Watkins and the Aug. 21 meeting, it is not known what the 89-year-old accounting firm did, if anything, to correct the situation or to inform federal investigators.      "This document raises additional concerns about Andersen’s knowledge of potential accounting irregularities and the subsequent destruction of Enron-related documents," said Rep. James C. Greenwood, Pennsylvania Republican and chairman of the House panel’s oversight and investigations subcommittee.      "We intend to request additional information from Andersen about this memorandum and the discussions that were held among its senior management team at that time," he said.      Mrs. Watkins, in warning Mr. Lay about accounting problems, urged him to seek an independent law firm and accounting company to investigate her concerns.      Instead, Mr. Lay gave the job to Enron’s outside counsel, Vinson & Elkins, which said the Enron accounting methods were "creative and aggressive," but that "no one has reason to believe it is inappropriate from a technical standpoint." The law firm concluded that the facts it found during "an intensive review" did not support an outside investigation.      The Enron document destruction began Oct. 23 and continued through Nov. 9, when Mr. Duncan’s assistant e-mailed secretaries to "stop the shredding." That message came after Andersen had received a federal subpoena for Enron documents.      In addition to his questioning by House committee investigators, Mr. Duncan also has talked with Justice Department lawyers and officials from the Securities and Exchange Commission.      "Mr. Duncan is cooperating with all investigations of this matter. He properly followed the instructions of an Andersen in-house lawyer in handling documents," said a statement by Sullivan and Cromwell, the law firm representing Mr. Duncan. The statement did not elaborate.      Three other Andersen partners were placed on administrative leave and four other managers were demoted after the shredding incident in what the accounting firm said was a "message" to its employees that it was "not going to tolerate anything less than the highest standards."      Thousands of Enron documents concerning the company’s financial situation are believed to have been destroyed, although Andersen has not explained what specific records were lost.      Last week, the Justice Department began a criminal investigation of Enron to determine whether company executives &#8212; including Mr. Lay &#8212; illegally blocked employees from selling billions of dollars in plummeting shares from their retirement accounts. The probe also has focused on accusations that executives cashed out their stock while hiding massive losses.      The firm filed for bankruptcy protection Dec. 2, less than four months after Mrs. Watkins’ warnings. It was the largest corporate bankruptcy in U.S. history. In addition to the SEC probe, the company also is being investigated by the Labor Department and at least eight congressional committees.      Enron has admitted overstating its annual profits by nearly $600 million and improperly keeping more than $1 billion in debt off its books since 1997. The Andersen firm endorsed Enron’s financial statements.      In related matters:      &#8226;The former chief of staff for Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman, chairman of the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, which also is investigating Enron, tried unsuccessfully last year to arrange a meeting between the Connecticut Democrat and Mr. Lay. Mr. Lieberman’s spokesman, Dan Gerstein, said he did not know what Mr. Lay wanted, but did not believe the matter would have any impact on the committee’s pending investigation.      &#8226;Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, Vermont Democrat and chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, questioned Andersen’s work on reorganizations at the Justice Department and FBI. In a letter to Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson, Mr. Leahy urged caution to prevent conflicts of interest between Andersen’s work at the department and the agency’s investigation of Enron.      Mr. Leahy said he was concerned the department was taking "appropriate steps" to guarantee the $700,000 reorganization efforts and the Enron investigation "do not taint each other."      Mr. Thompson said the Andersen officials helping in the review are from the firm’s management consulting division, which is separate from its accounting section. He said the department would "do everything possible to avoid any kind of appearance of impropriety or inappropriateness."      &#8226;Several congressional Democrats and Common Cause called for SEC Chairman Harvey Pitt &#8212; a securities lawyer who used to represent Andersen &#8212; to remove himself from the probe. White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said President Bush "has full faith and confidence" Mr. Pitt "will do the right things for the right reasons and will comply with all ethics provisions."

Response:

Reply-To: THE Internet Accounting List/Forum for CPAs Sender: THE Internet Accounting List/Forum for CPAs               ous August 2001 Letter Did FAS 133 Contribute to the Scandal:  The Now-Famous August 2001 Memo Following is the text of an unsigned letter written in August to Kenneth L. Lay, the chairman of the Enron Corporation (news/quote), after Jeffrey K. Skilling resigned unexpectedly as chief executive on Aug. 14. Its author was later identified as Sherron S. Watkins, a vice president for corporate development at Enron. The House Energy and Commerce Committee released excerpts of the letter on January 14, 2002 and the full letter on January 15.  I am only quoting three paragraphs from the full letter reported in The New York Times on January 16, 2002: — <http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/16/business/16TEXT.html?pagewanted=1         We have recognized over $550 million of fair value gains on stocks via our swaps with Raptor. Much of that stock has declined significantly – Avici by 98 percent from $178 million, to $5 million; the New Power Company by 80 percent from $40 a share, to $6 a share. The value in the swaps won’t be there for Raptor, so once again Enron will issue stock to offset these losses. Raptor is an LJM entity. It sure looks to the layman on the street that we are hiding losses in a related company and will compensate that company with Enron stock in the future.         I am incredibly nervous that we will implode in a wave of accounting scandals. My eight years of Enron work history will be worth nothing on my r

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well then do we run IPO(s) and all share issues throught the income statement? I don’t understand the connection. I dunno, actually I *do* run share issuances through the income statement, when they are shares issued for services. Shares for an acquistion generally creates goodwill, which used to be amortized, and now if impaired *is* to be run through the P & L.  There are only a few ways to avoid running the shares though P & L, AFAIK.  Issuing options is one of them. So, the connection looks pretty clear to me! To the best of my knowledge, your statement is correct, however I am not attempting to discuss what GAAP is or in not, rather what GAAP should or should not be. In my opinion, the accounting treatment for the cost of an acquired item or service should be determined by the nature of the item or service acquired, not by the form of payment used to acquire it.  In my opinion, labor cost is labor cost, whether it is paid for with dollars, pounds, francs, rupees, script, barter, or stock options.

Hi Jim, I totally agree.  For the past four years I’ve observed small start-ups issue options to consultants as part of the compensation.   The options were issued as opposed to stock for two reasons, to get around recording expense for the company and to bring funds in, which occurs upon exercise.  These people are not working for free or for the reduced rate that the cash outflow represents. It’s ridiculous that their compensation can be treated as though they were working for that price. I think US-GAAP, with the exception of not requiring the option awards to be recorded, is pretty good on the recording of stock issuances, which is why I go back to it.  I also think the option accounting represents a significant discrepancy with the other stock compensation.  It is not as though we don’t know how to value options.  I think it’s good to reference the ideal back to what already exists. Likewise, costs associated with the issuance of stock is costs associated with the issuance of stock, regardless of how paid. The amortization / impairment issue is a another keg of snakes.

This probably a discussion for another day.  I don’t know how many $$ of intangibles I have asked people to writeoff.  Most of our clients have used poolings so I don’t see a lot of goodwill.   What little I’ve seen was just so hard to justify it was an immediate writedown.   — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

– sarah clark When you forget yourself and are united with your task, that is your liberation.  If there is a milestone of realization on the path, well and good, but it is in the continued practice of uniting with your work that you turn the wheel of the Dharma for yourself, for the Sangha, and for the world.   — robert aitken

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well then do we run IPO(s) and all share issues throught the income statement? I don’t understand the connection. I dunno, actually I *do* run share issuances through the income statement, when they are shares issued for services. Shares for an acquistion generally creates goodwill, which used to be amortized, and now if impaired *is* to be run through the P & L.  There are only a few ways to avoid running the shares though P & L, AFAIK.  Issuing options is one of them. So, the connection looks pretty clear to me!

To the best of my knowledge, your statement is correct, however I am not attempting to discuss what GAAP is or in not, rather what GAAP should or should not be. In my opinion, the accounting treatment for the cost of an acquired item or service should be determined by the nature of the item or service acquired, not by the form of payment used to acquire it.  In my opinion, labor cost is labor cost, whether it is paid for with dollars, pounds, francs, rupees, script, barter, or stock options. Likewise, costs associated with the issuance of stock is costs associated with the issuance of stock, regardless of how paid. The amortization / impairment issue is a another keg of snakes. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

When you here only one small part of a dialog it can be puzzling.

<snip So, frankly, your comment is puzzling.)

<snip

Response:

Well then do we run IPO(s) and all share issues throught the income statement?

I don’t understand the connection. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

Well then do we run IPO(s) and all share issues throught the income statement? I don’t understand the connection.

I dunno, actually I *do* run share issuances through the income statement, when they are shares issued for services. Shares for an acquistion generally creates goodwill, which used to be amortized, and now if impaired *is* to be run through the P & L.  There are only a few ways to avoid running the shares though P & L, AFAIK.  Issuing options is one of them. So, the connection looks pretty clear to me!

Response:

Well then do we run IPO(s) and all share issues throught the income statement?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<snip I can certainly accept the notion that honest people can disagree on the specifics regarding this issue.  I do, however, believe that full and obvious disclosure is necessary, and that this cost should go through the income statement AT SOME POINT IN TIME.  This is particularly true when stock options are broadly used as a component of compensation. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

I don’t disagree with the concept of  "full disclosure" nor do I disagree that share issues are a "costless" event. I do have a problem with calling that action an "expense".  Often when options are granted the price is different than when they are issued so a "cost value" in the Income statement would mean little.  

What’s the problem with fair-valuing the award, based on an option pricing model, with disclosure of the assumptions? (which, is a required *disclosure* for options right now.  So is the number granted.  All of this disclosure you request exists at present.   So, frankly, your comment is puzzling.)  It’s a ridiculous compromise: you have to compute the expense, tell everyone what it is, but you don’t have to post it, except in certain circumstances.  I didn’t think that there was any dispute over whether or not it was an expense. I thought the dispute was over the value of the expense (zero, or something greater than zero). The amount of shares issued may mean more than the dollar value. Discloser should reveal material facts in full. Placing a value in "expense" fails too many tests.  If the options granted are significant and could impact market/share value the best way to cover that is in the notes. Perhaps a "Dilution Statement" should be added?

To my mind, diluted earnings per share covers this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim I for one am satisfied (more or less) with the Financial Statements the way they are. We are all entitled to our opinion.  Hopefully we can disagree agreeably. There are many potential and real costs / liabilities that do not show on the financial statement and there are many none existing assets that do show on the Financial Statements. Option are one of those. A collection of "wrongs" does not add up to a "right". While the article is trying to make a point but subject deserves better treatment (in a site called "electronic accountant")  than a rant. I won’t argue that point, however I tend to overlook writing style as long as I understand it. I think a better idea is that anyone who wishes to buy-sell on capital markets has to take and pass some training. Now THAT is a novel idea. But like requiring and enforcing responsibility before procreation, it is not likely to happen. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

–   — Don McLean

Response:

I don’t disagree with the concept of  "full disclosure" nor do I disagree that share issues are a "costless" event. I do have a problem with calling that action an "expense".  Often when options are granted the price is different than when they are issued so a "cost value" in the Income statement would mean little.  The amount of shares issued may mean more than the dollar value. Discloser should reveal material facts in full. Placing a value in "expense" fails too many tests.  If the options granted are significant and could impact market/share value the best way to cover that is in the notes. Perhaps a "Dilution Statement" should be added? nor do I disagree that share issues are a "costless" event?

I am a bit confused here.  Your context does not appear to agree with your details. Are you saying that you believe the issuance of stock options is in fact a "costless" event? I can certainly accept the notion that honest people can disagree on the specifics regarding this issue.  I do, however, believe that full and obvious disclosure is necessary, and that this cost should go through the income statement AT SOME POINT IN TIME.  This is particularly true when stock options are broadly used as a component of compensation. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

I don’t disagree with the concept of  "full disclosure" nor do I disagree that share issues are a "costless" event. I do have a problem with calling that action an "expense".  Often when options are granted the price is different than when they are issued so a "cost value" in the Income statement would mean little.  The amount of shares issued may mean more than the dollar value. Discloser should reveal material facts in full. Placing a value in "expense" fails too many tests.  If the options granted are significant and could impact market/share value the best way to cover that is in the notes. Perhaps a "Dilution Statement" should be added?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim I for one am satisfied (more or less) with the Financial Statements the way they are. We are all entitled to our opinion.  Hopefully we can disagree agreeably. There are many potential and real costs / liabilities that do not show on the financial statement and there are many none existing assets that do show on the Financial Statements. Option are one of those. A collection of "wrongs" does not add up to a "right". While the article is trying to make a point but subject deserves better treatment (in a site called "electronic accountant")  than a rant. I won’t argue that point, however I tend to overlook writing style as long as I understand it. I think a better idea is that anyone who wishes to buy-sell on capital markets has to take and pass some training. Now THAT is a novel idea. But like requiring and enforcing responsibility before procreation, it is not likely to happen. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

Jim I for one am satisfied (more or less) with the Financial Statements the way they are.

We are all entitled to our opinion.  Hopefully we can disagree agreeably. There are many potential and real costs / liabilities that do not show on the financial statement and there are many none existing assets that do show on the Financial Statements. Option are one of those.

A collection of "wrongs" does not add up to a "right". While the article is trying to make a point but subject deserves better treatment (in a site called "electronic accountant")  than a rant.

I won’t argue that point, however I tend to overlook writing style as long as I understand it. I think a better idea is that anyone who wishes to buy-sell on capital markets has to take and pass some training.

Now THAT is a novel idea. But like requiring and enforcing responsibility before procreation, it is not likely to happen. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

Accounting Today, Aug. 20 – Sep. 2, 2001 The Spirit of Accounting We really, really hate to say it, but… We told you so. by Paul B.W. Miller and Paul R. Bahnson <snip <snip All of us – investors, Wall Street analysts, journalists – help them do it. By ignoring the numbers that are out there, albeit squirreled away in footnotes, we’ve become a nation of options-abuse enablers." <snip Fox offers up this summary: "So, here’s a lesson for investors: when a company hands out tens of millions of options every year and contends through its earnings statement that the things cost nothing, it is telling – there’s really no other way to put this – a big stinking lie." <snip http://www.electronicaccountant.com/html/atoday/082001as-2.htm — — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

Jim I for one am satisfied (more or less) with the Financial Statements the way they are.  There are many potential and real costs / liabilities that do not show on the financial statement and there are many none existing assets that do show on the Financial Statements. Option are one of those. While the article is trying to make a point but subject deserves better treatment (in a site called "electronic accountant")  than a rant. "It is silly to think that leaving a real expense off an income statement will convince capital markets that there is no such expense." Any of many words that could have been used would be better than "expense". "If you think how much more money CEOs have gotten because there isn’t an earnings charge for options, it blows your mind." What blows my mind is people who only tell one side of the story. (when they should know better) Throughout the article they rant about "compensation expense" well its not an expense but it is a cost and it is recognized in the notes which is a vital part of the Financial Statements. I have seen financial statements with "Mineral properties" listed in assets for millions of  $$. The millions consisted of a drilling program that was done on those properties. In real terms the properties had no value. Investing is a complex business. Financial Statements tell a story but only part of the story. I just love the modifiers rant writers use – "innocent stockholders" The use of innocent implies "innocent or guilty" which implies that the "Mangers" are guilty criminals. There is a cost to the issuing of shares. I do not think it should be classed as an expense but if we want to show it as an expense put it on its own perhaps after taxes and Net Income. I think a better idea is that anyone who wishes to buy-sell on capital markets has to take and pass some training.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Accounting Today, Aug. 20 – Sep. 2, 2001 The Spirit of Accounting We really, really hate to say it, but… We told you so. by Paul B.W. Miller and Paul R. Bahnson <snip <snip All of us – investors, Wall Street analysts, journalists – help them do it. By ignoring the numbers that are out there, albeit squirreled away in footnotes, we’ve become a nation of options-abuse enablers." <snip Fox offers up this summary: "So, here’s a lesson for investors: when a company hands out tens of millions of options every year and contends through its earnings statement that the things cost nothing, it is telling – there’s really no other way to put this – a big stinking lie." <snip http://www.electronicaccountant.com/html/atoday/082001as-2.htm — — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

Question:

For it to effectively be Global, it would need to be taken up by the many other bodies who use the CPA designation. America isn’t the world, and with respect its accountants aren’t regarded necessarily as the world leaders in Accounting are they? Peter French MAcc CMA Australia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of the clearest information yet available regarding the so called XYZ / Cognitor designation the AICPA has been pushing.  For once it appears possible to get some IMHO, that particular designation will only service to confuse the issue and devalue CPA certificates. It’s a bad idea.

Response:

At this point I don’t have an opinion I would be willing to defend.  The only thing I’m certain of is that there are an unusually large number of strong opinions on both sides of the issue.

I think that’s one of the things that has truly confused the matter. I also note that each side seems more than willing to impute bad motives to the other side. My own position is, frankly, based primarily on my belief that the AICPA won’t be able to pull off the marketing necessary for the credential, even if I were to decide it was a good idea.  On the basic idea of such a credential, I’m probably closer to your view–I am not strongly committed either way.

Response:

For it to effectively be Global, it would need to be taken up by the many other bodies who use the CPA designation. America isn’t the world, and with respect its accountants aren’t regarded necessarily as the world leaders in Accounting are they? Peter French MAcc CMA Australia

Peter, Based on my experience in dealing with these so called "world  leaders" in the course of legislative matters, I think I have a pretty good idea as to what they would like to think about themselves.  As to how the rest of the world views them – I don’t have a clue.  You are in a far better position than I to comment on that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At this point I don’t have an opinion I would be willing to defend.  The only thing I’m certain of is that there are an unusually large number of strong opinions on both sides of the issue. I think that’s one of the things that has truly confused the matter. I also note that each side seems more than willing to impute bad motives to the other side. My own position is, frankly, based primarily on my belief that the AICPA won’t be able to pull off the marketing necessary for the credential, even if I were to decide it was a good idea.  On the basic idea of such a credential, I’m probably closer to your view–I am not strongly committed either way.

Ed, This topic seems to have generated more heat among accountants than anything I’ve seen in years, and I genuinely do not get it.  For me it is sort of like looking at one of those "far out" cartoons and not having a clue as to what the cartoonist is trying to convey. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

Based on my experience in dealing with these so called "world  leaders" in the course of legislative matters, I think I have a pretty good idea as to what they would like to think about themselves.  As to how the rest of the world views them – I don’t have a clue.  You are in a far better position than I to comment on that.

Actually, this is an international effort, though my understanding is that the makeup of who is "in" and "out" has changed through the process.  I don’t recall if Australia was part of the process, but I do believe that New Zealand either was involved (and dropped out) or is involved now. I know the UK was involved and then rejected the project. That said, it likely cannot succeed without the US being involved, though US approval by itself will not create a global credential. Perhaps even more important is this–what will the Big 5 do about it? Their support, or lack thereof, is likely going to be the most important aspect. That also brings up another issue–this project has suffered from a split personality from early on.  One push for it is a globalization issue–to get a unified accounting credential.  I believe that justification was the reason why the UK and Ireland were part of the process initially and was actually the issue that got the discussions running.  The second issue, which seems to have now overtaken the first justification, is to expand the "CPA/CA/whatever you call it <grin" brand outside of accounting.  As this became more important, much of the initial international support seems to have dried up. Most of the US discussion now hinges on this second issue.

Response:

Actually, in the sense Britain was a century or so ago, America is. AFAIK, when you talk about people putting up their own money, America is the center of accounting thought.  When they have a chance, the people who actually pay the bills, prefer American GAAP.  Now if you can show otherwise, with out referring to the preferences of national political bodies, I am certainly willing to listen. For it to effectively be Global, it would need to be taken up by the many other bodies who use the CPA designation. America isn’t the world, and with respect its accountants aren’t regarded necessarily as the world leaders in Accounting are they?

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

That also brings up another issue–this project has suffered from a split personality from early on.  One push for it is a globalization issue–to get a unified accounting credential.  I believe that justification was the reason why the UK and Ireland were part of the process initially and was actually the issue that got the discussions running.  The second issue, which seems to have now overtaken the first justification, is to expand the "CPA/CA/whatever you call it <grin" brand outside of accounting.  As this became more important, much of the initial international support seems to have dried up. Most of the US discussion now hinges on this second issue.

This comment is very helpful. I observed the same pattern in our local legislative effort.  The WSCPA opened with a lot of hype about "uniformity" and then moved into a massive expansion of both accounting and who could do it.  Our most contentious issue was non-CPA ownership of CPA firms. There is obviously a huge difference between an effort to formulate a uniform definition of "Certified / Chartered Accountant" and an effort to create a "Global Business Credential".  I can see some merit it each, and do believe that a sane discussion on each separately would be beneficial.  This is not to say that I agree with either, only that I believe a rational discussion would be beneficial. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

<HEAVY SNIP  The second issue, which seems to have now overtaken the first justification, is to expand the "CPA/CA/whatever you call it <grin" brand outside of accounting.  As this became more important, much of the initial international support seems to have dried up. Most of the US discussion now hinges on this second issue.

This is true. I headed up a national taskforce here in the mid 1980’s looking at allowing non CPA/CAs into partnership due the direction that the professional was heading. Only now id that issue being realistically addressed. In the meantime the smaller forms stuck like glue to their "CPA/CA" designations whereas the big 8/7/6/5/4/? dropped the particular designations to such titles at "Accountants & Advisors". To me the whole thing is a bit like the various attempts to issue a degree higher than the PhD – someone has suggested ‘Chancellor’ which seems about as ridiculous as this XYZ. In the end the client couldn’t really give a damn – you are either good for him and safe, or a timebomb and a waste of money. Peter French

Response:

troll.  I am entirely serious.

I know you are

Response:

Some of the clearest information yet available regarding the so called XYZ / Cognitor designation the AICPA has been pushing.  For once it appears possible to get some

IMHO, that particular designation will only service to confuse the issue and devalue CPA certificates. It’s a bad idea.

Response:

Some of the clearest information yet available regarding the so called XYZ / Cognitor designation the AICPA has been pushing.  For once it appears possible to get some IMHO, that particular designation will only service to confuse the issue and devalue CPA certificates. It’s a bad idea.

At this point I don’t have an opinion I would be willing to defend.  The only thing I’m certain of is that there are an unusually large number of strong opinions on both sides of the issue. I would be interested to know why you believe what you do.  This is not a troll.  I am entirely serious. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

Some of the clearest information yet available regarding the so called XYZ / Cognitor designation the AICPA has been pushing.  For once it appears possible to get some reasonably solid information without first having to peel off 10 layers of hysterical hype and spin. http://www.accountingweb.com/members/aicpa/content/info/index.htm — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

Question:

"*In each scenario, a certain amount of professional judgment is involved. If you believe that by making material adjustments you have, in fact, prepared financial statements (by using your knowledge, experience and education you have gone beyond providing mere bookkeeping services) and you believe you have presented them to the client or others, you should comply with SSARS no. 1."

I go beyond providing "mere bookkeeping services" on a daily basis, it’s called "value added services" <grin which the AICPA and every state CPA society is pushing.  Friday I was at a clients office for over 4 hours helping them with adjusting entries and in effect closing the books.  I made suggestions on the entries in a effort to make them more in line with correct balances.  The client made the entries, the client printed the reports, in fact I never touched the computer.   Were some of the entries material?  Anyone can argue they were.  Three of their employees touch the books, and someone posted several sales to A/R. A/R looks real strange with a credit balance, don’t you agree?  And there were similar items that needed mending.   I don’t consider what I did as preparing financial statements, but it bothers me that the AICPA would continue to follow the road that hints that I did.  Having standards to follow are great, if they are applied to everyone that the public relies on for financial statements.  As it stands now, any idiot with QB on their computer can issue financial statements that look real without following any set of professional standards.  God knows this happens in the tax area as well. When will the AICPA and the state societies have the rocks to push legislation that protects the public interest?  Or at least slack up on the standards we’re held to, at least in this area, that say I might have prepared a financial statement. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

Response:

I don’t consider what I did as preparing financial statements, but it bothers me that the AICPA would continue to follow the road that hints that I did.  

The real problem with this one is not that the AICPA officially followed that road, but that this article (published in their own journal) seems to simply put us right back where we were before SSARS 8 went into effect. As I said, to say that some might decide to perform a compilation anyway *AS THEIR OWN FIRM STANDARD* is fine.  But this article goes beyond that, and suggests that SSARS 8 requires the compilation in certain vaguely defined circumstances.

Response:

When will the AICPA and the state societies have the rocks to push legislation that protects the public interest?

How are you going to do that?  The fact is the accounting business has fundamentally changed, and the very concept of a compilation doesn’t make sense.  It is absurd to try and nail down rules for every specific situation, at a time when the CPA’s involvement in every set of books may be different.  A given client, in the first few months of using QB, may have the CPA involved monthly while the same client, six months later, needs little or no assistance.  The notion that "going through the motions" of producing a compilation report (which the client can simply throw in the trash) is absurd.  The compilation report has ALWAYS given artificial credibility to financial statements (a great concept if you’re the AICPA trying to drum up fees).  The fact that assertive language is used is immaterial; the banker/lender doesn’t read past the letterhead anyway. CPA’s should be held to no responsibility whatsoever for financial statements prepared by the client, on the client’s computer, or by the CPA, on the client’s computer, or on the CPA’s computer from data provided by the client.  In other words, if the CPA isn’t specifically taking responsibility for the statements in a suitable cover letter, then the financial statements are the client’s responsibility.  Any other treatment is provided solely as insurance to the lender — that if the reporting entity bellies up there will slightly deeper pockers to sue.   It certainly cannot be relied upon to generate better financial information.  The "public interest" is generally not involved in compilations. This is but one more miserable failure of the accounting industry to understand what’s going on in world today.  Rather than burden business owners with this nonsense and confuse lenders, it is best to let the financial statements stand on their own (unless audited, or perhaps "reviewed" [another can of worms]).  Most CPAs disclaim any responsibility for disclosure and other measures which could make compiled statements meaningful, so why should "CPA" on the letterhead lend credibility to financial statements? I’d suggest setting up the following classifications of statements with CPA involvement: 1.  Financial Statements without CPA involvement at any time during the accounting period (default where no CPA involved). 2.  Financial Statements with CPA involvement where the CPA assumes no liability (this is the default if the CPA is involved). 3.  Financial Statements with CPA involvement where the CPA is secondariliy liable for the content of the statements (Requires compilation report). 4.  Audited Statements. If a bank insists on a level (3) statement, the client pays substantially more, because he has to contribute to paying for the CPA’s malpractice insurance.  Let’s get over the nonsense about there being any material difference in the actual statements between (2) and (3).  If there IS such a difference, the CPA isn’t reputable anyway, in which case (3) is no different than (2). David Ray Former CPA Who Has Moved On But Still Follows the Newsgroups….

Response:

When will the AICPA and the state societies have the rocks to push legislation that protects the public interest?

I am deeply involved in the formulation of legislation intended to be introduced in our (Washington) next legislative session. In my opinion, the lack of concern on the part of the AICPA and it’s affiliated state organizations with the public interest has nothing to do with "rocks" and everything to do with it’s own short term selfish interests. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d suggest setting up the following classifications of statements with CPA involvement: 1.  Financial Statements without CPA involvement at any time during the accounting period (default where no CPA involved). 2.  Financial Statements with CPA involvement where the CPA assumes no liability (this is the default if the CPA is involved). 3.  Financial Statements with CPA involvement where the CPA is secondariliy liable for the content of the statements (Requires compilation report). 4.  Audited Statements. If a bank insists on a level (3) statement, the client pays substantially more, because he has to contribute to paying for the CPA’s malpractice insurance.  Let’s get over the nonsense about there being any material difference in the actual statements between (2) and (3).  If there IS such a difference, the CPA isn’t reputable anyway, in which case (3) is no different than (2). David Ray Former CPA Who Has Moved On But Still Follows the Newsgroups….

While I think this might need a bit of tweaking, I do believe it is fundamentally sound. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

I am deeply involved in the formulation of legislation intended to be introduced in our (Washington) next legislative session. In my opinion, the lack of concern on the part of the AICPA and it’s affiliated state organizations with the public interest has nothing to do with "rocks" and everything to do with it’s own short term selfish interests.

I honor you, for getting involved and working with the political process. WABOA is meeting at Seatac next week for a hearing on some minor stuff.  I was thinking of coming, but the topics are not the important ones. When your bill is introduced in the legislature, let me know and I will come down to Olympia and burn my CPA certificate in front of the Capitol building.  I will stand up on top of my car with a megaphone and give a speech. Todd

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am deeply involved in the formulation of legislation intended to be introduced in our (Washington) next legislative session. In my opinion, the lack of concern on the part of the AICPA and it’s affiliated state organizations with the public interest has nothing to do with "rocks" and everything to do with it’s own short term selfish interests. I honor you, for getting involved and working with the political process. WABOA is meeting at Seatac next week for a hearing on some minor stuff.  I was thinking of coming, but the topics are not the important ones. When your bill is introduced in the legislature, let me know and I will come down to Olympia and burn my CPA certificate in front of the Capitol building.  I will stand up on top of my car with a megaphone and give a speech. Todd

Todd, Believe it or not, we may end up with a bill I can support. The Washington State Board has some very strong people on its’ legislative committee (2 are CFEs).  This committee more or less seized control of the process about a month ago.  We have since made excellent progress toward a workable arrangement. Burning your certificate, while it might be fun, would not really accomplish anything.  Might I suggest you go to http://www.cpaboard.wa.gov/alerts/janrules.html, read the items up for discussion and email your thoughts to the board.  The two discussion items are: 1)  WAC 4-25-626  Can I accept commision, referral, or contingent fees? 2)  WAC 4-25-730  Experience If you are interested it what the proposal is now looking like I can email it to you.  Let me know. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

The Journal of Accountancy published this month an article on SSARS 8. While the article generally explains the SSARS 8 issues, I am afraid that on the trigger issue (do you have to issue a compilation report if you modify a client database) the table accompanying the article actually unnecessarily muddies the waters. http://www.aicpa.org/pubs/jofa/jan2001/young.htm The article has a table at the end that basically restates the infamous Risk Alert table that started this "touch the database–have to report" mess in the first place.  And, generally, the answers are now what we’d like them to be.  *HOWEVER* there is this nasty asterisk beside each of the changed answers.  That asterisk references down to a paragraph that states the following: "*In each scenario, a certain amount of professional judgment is involved. If you believe that by making material adjustments you have, in fact, prepared financial statements (by using your knowledge, experience and education you have gone beyond providing mere bookkeeping services) and you believe you have presented them to the client or others, you should comply with SSARS no. 1." Which converts a "no" answer to a definite maybe.  I would not challenge this statement if it had stated that nothing in the standards would prohibit a CPA from issuing a compilation report.  But the above simply gives "open season" for plaintiff’s experts to contend that actually the trigger was tripped. Because one of the authors is a member of ARSC, the above is likely going to be treated as an "unofficial" interpretation of SSARS 8, and effectively guts the proposal of any redeeming value.  The *STANDARD* should be that no compilation is REQUIRED in those cases, PERIOD.  As it stands now, all CPAs who do any technology related work for nonpublic companies (which includes technology consultants and perhaps even CPAs working for ASPs) are going to be constantly open to claims they have violated professional standards and face potential damage claims. So we’re back to square one–any trigger aside from the agreement between the parties is simply unworkable, and ARSC should go back to the drawing board.  At the very least, ARSC needs to issue official interpretations *CLEARLY* indicating that there is *NO* requirement to compile in the cases shown in the JoA article table.

Response:

Or at least slack up on the standards we’re held to, at least in this area, that say I might have prepared a financial statement.

By the way, it’s worse than I thought.  The PCPS Section of the AICPA is distributing a guide to their members online that goes over using SSARS 8.  That guide reproduces the table in the JoA article word for word, along with the asterisk.

Response:

Question:

I,m looking for a good cashflow software package for an accounting practice in melbourne australia anyone have any ideas

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I,m looking for a good cashflow software package for an accounting practice in melbourne australia anyone have any ideas

I use Winforecast. It does monthly P & L’s Balance Sheets, Cash Flow’s Fund Statements and Ratios. It’s UK Web site is www.pase.com.uk (from memory – email me if it doesn’t work) They have an Australianised version distributed by a mob in WA – the web site will give you more info. Raoul Dunk      Salisbury, South Australia "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." — Aristotle Remove NOSPAM to email me. http://adelaidesa.8m.com/rpdunk.htm

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Question:

I came here a few weeks ago looking for some feed back and an opinion from the readers and docs here and yes also some support. I recieved one intelligent answer from the 20 or so replies. the rest were an accounting of how many nurses there were posting here. So maybe if people could get the help they seek here they would not object to all the xxx jokes so much. I was scared and worried and asked  for help and recieved none. I have been reading occasionaly to see if by accident  I could pick up some added info that would be of help to me. So far no luck, but lot of space  and time has been devoted to jokes and arguments over jokes. I do not object to  jokes-even xxxjokes but it was not what I came here for. just my 2 cents worth . Barb Donly

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Barb is right. You homies ought to start your own email group for your gossip.  The news group says "support" and "arthritis". No one addresses my questions either. Where’s the support? Suzz

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I was scared and worried and asked  for help and recieved none.

Hi Barb,       The one thing you have to learn to survive in this group (and with these diseases) is to be assertive!  If you didn’t get a good response to your first question, ask it again.  It’s your health, after all and just as you will have to ask questions of your doctors and learn about the meds you take, you need to speak up here if you’ve got pressing questions.  Someone will certainly try to help if they can.      Also, if you’ve seen a post titled |||TIPS FOR NEWBIES…., read it!! It’s got some great web links and general info about this group and the net. If you can’t find it, e-mail me and I’ll forward it to  you.     As you’ve seen, we’re a bit short on common sense lately, but not at all short on desire to help. Denise

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I came here a few weeks ago looking for some feed back and an opinion from the readers and docs here and yes also some support.

Barb: There are many of us here who would like to help you with your questions. If possible, could you repost your tehm and we will attempt to help out. Rose

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Barbara, I’m sorry you didn’t find much helpful information in the 20 or so replys to your original post.  Sometimes a post sets off a discussion in another direction – like the time Shirley sneezed and started an avalanche.  If your original questions weren’t answered to your satisfaction, try posting them again.  I’m sure someone will give it a stab. Barbara Joy I came here a few weeks ago looking for some feed back and an opinion from the readers and docs here and yes also some support. I recieved one intelligent answer from the 20 or so replies. the rest were an accounting of how many nurses there were posting here. So maybe if people could get the help they seek here they would not object to all the xxx jokes so much. I was scared and worried and asked  for help and recieved none. I have been reading occasionaly to see if by accident  I could pick up some added info that would be of help to me. So far no luck, but lot of space  and time has been devoted to jokes and arguments over jokes. I do not object to  jokes-even xxxjokes but it was not what I came here for. just my 2 cents worth . Barb Donly

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Barb, I’m sorry you didn’t feel your questions were being properly addressed.  Folks do get distracted sometimes, but that doesn’t mean they don’t care or don’t have information to offer.   We all would just LOVE to answer your questions… now won’t you ask again?  Or better yet, just jump in and start asking and answering yourself… there are plenty of good posts to choose from, and  that will be the start of more of the kind of supportive and informational posts that should predominate here. Best regards, LadyAndy2

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Barb,    Do try again.  The Newsgroup is in a phase of renewal <BG and hopefully everyone will be back to normal soon after all the construction work is cleaned up.   Sorry you have been ignored, we really do like to try to help. Lori

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Question:

I’m 13 and I am just wondering, Am I the youngest one in here?

This was the results of an "age check" taken here on ASD a long time ago. It was just a snapshot in time.  I guess at this time the snapshot would include you as the minimum age of 13!!!    :-)

Mean                    33 Standard Deviation      11 Minimum                 15 Maximum                 67 Count                   149 Editors note:  This was just a summary snapshot in time of those who chose to respond with their ages. Sincerely Stewart — The Metaphor Man  *and*  The Great Defender of the Self Please e-mail me a copy of your response if you can so I don’t miss it.

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I ‘m 13 and I am just wondering, Am I the youngest one in here?

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Perhaps ..but you are just as welcome!!!!! Eva – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ‘m 13 and I am just wondering, Am I the youngest one in here?

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I’m 16, so you’re not that much younger than me, but yeah, I think you’re the youngest. : I ‘m 13 and I am just wondering, Am I the youngest one in here? — C-ya, Vicky Schott

I got bras older than 16. Heh. Leslie — I think the most beautiful sunset I ever saw was on page 4 and 5 of "The Book of Sunsets. – Jack Handey Visit My Website! http://www.flex.net/users/tuesday

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I’m 16, so you’re not that much younger than me, but yeah, I think you’re the youngest.

: I ‘m 13 and I am just wondering, Am I the youngest one in here? — C-ya, Vicky Schott

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LOLOLOL Jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 16, so you’re not that much younger than me, but yeah, I think you’re the youngest. : I ‘m 13 and I am just wondering, Am I the youngest one in here? — C-ya, Vicky Schott I got bras older than 16. Heh. Leslie — I think the most beautiful sunset I ever saw was on page 4 and 5 of "The Book of Sunsets. – Jack Handey Visit My Website! http://www.flex.net/users/tuesday

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Mean                    33 Standard Deviation      11 Minimum                 15 Maximum                 67 Count                   149 Editors note:  This was just a summary snapshot in time of those who chose to respond with their ages. errrr……. huh? wombn, took statistics but forgot how to intepret it

wombn, it means the "average" age is 33, with the largest group of people falling between the ages of 22 and 44 years of age.  Of the 149 responses, the oldest was 67, the youngest 15. "All wisdom is plagiarism; only stupidity is original

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(unable to think after struggling for days & weeks & months & years & decades & eons to make serialized CD software inventory balance and AR/OE to balance and RMAs to calculate right, and voided RMAs to reverse right, and sick to death of teaching the accountants how to balance it –all the while being belittled for not being "accounting competent" and watching the 100,000+ 12-digit numbers float around in front of my eyes all day every day without end, and knowing I have no chance at all of meeting the deadline that is three weeks away, not that anyone would give a shit 100 years from now…..)

wombn, you competent wench you.  The rule is:  when engaged in tasks like this, you’re supposed to have eyes glazed over and recognize such common objects as chairs and spoons, but not remember exactly what it is they’re called.  As long as you don’t eat with the chair and sit in the spoon, you’re okey dokey.  If you do, what the hey, haven’t we all?  That’s what upholstery cleaner and nursery rhymes are for.  And ersatz literary references.  We can be Women Who Sit With The Spoons.   When I’ve been trying to do hex in my head, and other such pleasant pursuits, and cannot then remember that October follows September, I think of Psyche trying to separate the grains.  Now I will think of you too.  You comfort me.  And we are LEGION! — BunBun, relating!

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I got bras older than 16.

I have carried the same roach clip on my keyring for the past 23 years. The Tarot deck I use I have had for 22 years. My snowshoe boots are 20 years old, sewn in places now but still fine. I did all the sewing myself. I think it is pretty good, a 13 year-old online here. There is gets. — bev . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . http://members.tripod.com/~Veb People Against Coercive Treatment http://web.arcos.org/gbacque/antiAPA.htm

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 16, so you’re not that much younger than me, but yeah, I think you’re the youngest. : I ‘m 13 and I am just wondering, Am I the youngest one in here? — C-ya, Vicky Schott I got bras older than 16. Heh. Leslie

You sure you want to start this thread? Barbarossa

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