Question:

I’m about 60% through the test, but I’m having a few problems: A. Oak City gave 10 acres of land to Burlington upon which to build a manufacturing facility. Oak City had acquired the land when a taxpayer had refused for several years to pay taxes. The total taxes owing were $100,000, but at the time Oak City acquired the land it was appraised for tax purposes at $200,000. The board of directors of Burlington thought the land was worth $250,000. I have: Land Dr. $200,000        Cash Cr. $200,000 My reasoning is what the board of directors thought was irrelevant. The donated land is valued by the appraisal amount, which is $200,000. However, i’m unsure what, if anything, I should do with the back taxes. B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again.

Response:

Sorry, a typo on A. Land Dr. $200,000       Gain (or revenue) Cr. $200,000 Obviously it’s not cash since it’s a donation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 60% through the test, but I’m having a few problems: A. Oak City gave 10 acres of land to Burlington upon which to build a manufacturing facility. Oak City had acquired the land when a taxpayer had refused for several years to pay taxes. The total taxes owing were $100,000, but at the time Oak City acquired the land it was appraised for tax purposes at $200,000. The board of directors of Burlington thought the land was worth $250,000. I have: Land Dr. $200,000        Cash Cr. $200,000 My reasoning is what the board of directors thought was irrelevant. The donated land is valued by the appraisal amount, which is $200,000. However, i’m unsure what, if anything, I should do with the back taxes. B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again.

Response:

Should the title costs be debited to LAND instead, making the answer 2,060,000? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 60% through the test, but I’m having a few problems: A. Oak City gave 10 acres of land to Burlington upon which to build a manufacturing facility. Oak City had acquired the land when a taxpayer had refused for several years to pay taxes. The total taxes owing were $100,000, but at the time Oak City acquired the land it was appraised for tax purposes at $200,000. The board of directors of Burlington thought the land was worth $250,000. I have: Land Dr. $200,000        Cash Cr. $200,000 My reasoning is what the board of directors thought was irrelevant. The donated land is valued by the appraisal amount, which is $200,000. However, i’m unsure what, if anything, I should do with the back taxes.

ignore the taxes, they are owed by another taxpayer! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again.

I think all the costs are included in Buildings or land except "avoidable" interest, if the interest was interim construction loan interest then it would be included

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 60% through the test, but I’m having a few problems: A. Oak City gave 10 acres of land to Burlington upon which to build a manufacturing facility. Oak City had acquired the land when a taxpayer had refused for several years to pay taxes. The total taxes owing were $100,000, but at the time Oak City acquired the land it was appraised for tax purposes at $200,000. The board of directors of Burlington thought the land was worth $250,000. I have: Land Dr. $200,000        Cash Cr. $200,000 My reasoning is what the board of directors thought was irrelevant. The donated land is valued by the appraisal amount, which is $200,000. However, i’m unsure what, if anything, I should do with the back taxes.

Unless Burlington has assumed the cost of the property taxes owed on the land, as it is an encumbrance on the property your entry is correct except the cash part. Your question states that the city "gave" not "sold" Burlington the land.   Your journal entry for the contribution of the land should look like this for Burlington: Land                         $200,000       Contribution Rev                 $200,000 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again.

Here goes another of my thoughts, according to FASB all costs incurred up to excavation for a new building while getting land ready for its intended use should be attached to land So your journal entry should look like this: Bldg          $2,060,000         Cash                    $2,060,000 Hope this helped. Keep ‘em coming cuz you’re helping me too. Janice

Response:

I think the title search is debited to land also. it’s listed in my homework and in the textbook. I’m happy with these two answers. Thanks to both of you. I’m more concerned with exchanging similar assets when cash is involved, it’s a complicated process. I’m using the Intermediate Accounting book by Rees & Rees by the way.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about 60% through the test, but I’m having a few problems: A. Oak City gave 10 acres of land to Burlington upon which to build a manufacturing facility. Oak City had acquired the land when a taxpayer had refused for several years to pay taxes. The total taxes owing were $100,000, but at the time Oak City acquired the land it was appraised for tax purposes at $200,000. The board of directors of Burlington thought the land was worth $250,000. I have: Land Dr. $200,000        Cash Cr. $200,000 My reasoning is what the board of directors thought was irrelevant. The donated land is valued by the appraisal amount, which is $200,000. However, i’m unsure what, if anything, I should do with the back taxes. Unless Burlington has assumed the cost of the property taxes owed on the land, as it is an encumbrance on the property your entry is correct except the cash part. Your question states that the city "gave" not "sold" Burlington the land.   Your journal entry for the contribution of the land should look like this for Burlington: Land                         $200,000       Contribution Rev                 $200,000 B. Burlington constructed a building upon which the following expenditures were incurred: Costs of excavation $40,000 Paid to contractor $2,000,000 Costs for title search $10,000 Interest incurred (avoidable) $20,000 I have: Building Dr. $2,070,000              Cash Cr. $2,070,000 I’ve included all of the costs, and the avoidable interest, assuming it’s lower than the actual interest. Please place any thoughts or corrections while I review the text again. Here goes another of my thoughts, according to FASB all costs incurred up to excavation for a new building while getting land ready for its intended use should be attached to land So your journal entry should look like this: Bldg          $2,060,000         Cash                    $2,060,000 Hope this helped. Keep ‘em coming cuz you’re helping me too. Janice

Response:

Question:

Good points HD, Before "retiring" into education, I spent 25 years in the mechanical trades (hvac&r). If nothing else, I’ve learned that engineers and technicians work best when they work together.  A team approach is the only one that works. I’ve earned an Associate’s, a Bachelor’s and a Masters degree, and all while working days as a technician.  It took me 25 years to do it.  None of my degrees are in engineering, but I’m glad that my colleagues’ were. They taught me plenty, and I like to flatter myself by thinking I’ve taught them a thing or two. Now I teach science and literature to high schoolers. God bless America. Bern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If both groups would realize they are needed for the successful completion of ALL projects, we’d have better, less costly, more efficient, completed ahead of time jobs. HD in NY

Response:

For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson

Not at all – its an anti-no experience rant. Unless you have a different understanding of "wet behind the ears" than I do. I agree completely with Mickey. Education is good, education plus experience is terrific, but if there’s a choice between a non-degree’d person who knows what he’s doing and a degree’d person who doesn’t, the choice is clear to me.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of the cleverest & best qualified designers that worked for me never saw the inside of a college. Disband the colleges.  Nobody needs calculus or real analysis or physics or chemistry courses.  It’s just a waste of time.  Just let the clever high school dropouts develop the new stuff. — Bob Johnson You’re missing the point Bob. No one wishes to demean the value of engineers, at least not me, and no one should be demeaning the value of technicians. Both are needed to get the job done and neither need get "huffy" with the other. The problem comes in trying to get both groups to work together. Too often the engineer lets his ego get in the way of his hearing ability and the technician lets his sarcasm towards the engineer get in the way of effective communication. If both groups would realize they are needed for the successful completion of ALL projects, we’d have better, less costly, more efficient, completed ahead of time jobs.

Good observation.  You’re maybe the first one to post with some understanding that it’s a two way street. — Bob Johnson

Response:

Some of the cleverest & best qualified designers that worked for me never saw the inside of a college.

Disband the colleges.  Nobody needs calculus or real analysis or physics or chemistry courses.  It’s just a waste of time.  Just let the clever high school dropouts develop the new stuff. — Bob Johnson

Response:

NO ONE is putting down education, just trying to point out all knowledge doesn’t come from some old ivy covered structure which may or may not of had a PE sign off on.

Then you shouldn’t phrase things as though education had zero value. — Bob Johnson

Response:

NO ONE is putting down education, just trying to point out all knowledge doesn’t come from some old ivy covered structure which may or may not of had a PE sign off on. Then you shouldn’t phrase things as though education had zero value. — Bob Johnson

Often, the interpretation is in the eye of the reader. Some readers see every insult they seek. Lon

Response:

Some of the cleverest & best qualified designers that worked for me never saw the inside of a college. Disband the colleges.  Nobody needs calculus or real analysis or physics or chemistry courses.  It’s just a waste of time.  Just let the clever high school dropouts develop the new stuff. — Bob Johnson

You’re missing the point Bob. No one wishes to demean the value of engineers, at least not me, and no one should be demeaning the value of technicians. Both are needed to get the job done and neither need get "huffy" with the other. The problem comes in trying to get both groups to work together. Too often the engineer lets his ego get in the way of his hearing ability and the technician lets his sarcasm towards the engineer get in the way of effective communication. If both groups would realize they are needed for the successful completion of ALL projects, we’d have better, less costly, more efficient, completed ahead of time jobs. HD in NY

Response:

For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything.

That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson

Response:

By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test? Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they? Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

Response:

By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test?

An engineer. Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they?

A law school graduate. Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

A medical doctor. — D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762 djosborn at aol dot com

Response:

For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson

I didn’t think so. I thought it was slightly anti educated idiot, but mostly pro successful experience. Lon

Response:

By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test?

When I did it, you could take the EIT (Engineer in Training) exam any time.  It was recommended to us to take it just before graduation when the diverse items on the test were more fresh in our minds — the exam covered things in most of the basic courses you took over the 4 years of college.  To qualify to take the PE exam you not only have to wait, you have to get appropriate work experience, typically under a PE’s supervision. Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they?

Not a licensed lawyer. Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

Not a licensed doctor. — Bob Johnson

Response:

For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson

No it isn’t. It’s a pretty standard response of an individual who has corrected screw ups by "engineers". There are boneheads in all fields of endeavor and engineering is just one of them. A good engineer is one who listens to the technicians who have worked with the project and uses their responses in his own evaluation. Egotism results in mistakes. HD in NY

Response:

By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test? Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they? Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

Once a Doctor has completed internship, he is a full MD. The residency requirement is for a specialty.  I know several that have never completed a residency, for various reasons, yet they are fully licensed and practice medicine. George

Response:

One of my professors stated "that ‘an advance degree’ (one beyond high school) indicates two things, the ability to research and the abiilty to stick to a project. It doesn’t mean that the person is intelligient." This I truely must agree with. I have seen sheepskins on some of the dumbest individuals walls. And the only reason that they were in higher management positions were the ability to schmooze, lie and redirect responsibility to the benefit of his friends who promoted him. The poor hardworking honest and smart folk (who call a spade a spade, not a soil removal tool) tend to take responsibility for their mistakes and are limited otherwise in their sphere of influence. the old anarchist ps, it means that you can screw up royally and still be in charge

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test? Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they? Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

Response:

Same argument with teachers. I have been a licensed and certifed teacher for 33 years. I taught in the public school system. I also have BS and MS degrees. To teach in the public school system – you are required to have the above. Many people teach in private schools and colleges and they are not required to have either a teaching license or an advanced degree. Some people say that good teachers are born – not trained. I would never say that people without degrees or licenses are not good teachers. Some of the best teachers in the world are unlicensed parents. Ironically, to be a parent one no longer needs a license Other people feel perfectly qualified to judge teachers and schools simply because they attended a school for 12 years.

Response:

By the subject of this thread "No Degree No Engineer No Kidding" I started wondering. It seems there is a finite amount of time between graduating with a degree and taking the PE test to become a registered engineer. What are they after graduating school but before they pass the test? Come to think of it, what happens to say an attorney that graduates from law school but hasn’t taken the bar exam yet? What are they?

Juris Doctors. Or a DR that has graduated from medical school but hasn’t finished his residency yet?

–

Response:

For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson

Funny you didn’t include the statement I made just prior to the one you’ve included saying the degreed ME’s I worked with themselves said that most of the knowledge they needed on a daily basis didn’t come from their formal education. NO ONE is putting down education, just trying to point out all knowledge doesn’t come from some old ivy covered structure which may or may not of had a PE sign off on.  From your responses it appears you believe man was still living in caves until for first Engineering degreeand PE certificate was handed out. Mickey — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Same argument with teachers. I have been a licensed and certifed teacher for 33 years. I taught in the public school system. I also have BS and MS degrees. To teach in the public school system – you are required to have the above. Many people teach in private schools and colleges and they are not required to have either a teaching license or an advanced degree. Some people say that good teachers are born – not trained. I would never say that people without degrees or licenses are not good teachers. Some of the best teachers in the world are unlicensed parents. Ironically, to be a parent one no longer needs a license Other people feel perfectly qualified to judge teachers and schools simply because they attended a school for 12 years.

Teaching is, by and large, a thankless job.  That being said, I hope you are not of the stripe that stood up in a school board meeting and declared that elected school board members should only be teachers since they are the only ones who can judge teachers and schools. I don’t paint but I can judge art. I don’t write but I can judge writers. I don’t make movies but I can decide what is good or bad. — Dave

Response:

NO ONE is putting down education, just trying to point out all knowledge doesn’t come from some old ivy covered structure which may or may not of had a PE sign off on.  From your responses it appears you believe man was still living in caves until for first Engineering degreeand PE certificate was handed out.

Mickey, except for a tiny minority of anklebiters, nitwits and self-absorbed fools, you’re preaching to the choir.   Anyone who knows ANYTHING about what is involved in "engineering" knows for a FACT that the vast majority of the work is done by people who do not have a PE and do not need it – even to satisfy some well-intentioned but foolhardy laws.   This thread and related ones have been kept alive by people with an obvious agenda of putting down anyone whose style or opinions they don’t like.  There is simply no substance otherwise. My advice – ignore them.   Their ilk has been around forever, standing on the sidelines and second-guessing those doing the work, intent on imposing THEIR juvenile ideas on a world they don’t begin to understand.  Some of the cleverest & best qualified designers that worked for me never saw the inside of a college. Yes – some were merely detailers (much as I was when I started out) but some were called Design Engineers and well deserved the title. Will Sill

Response:

A technician knows all about how things dont work.  The engineer knows all about how things do work.  That is the critical difference and is responsible for all that bitching and moaning between engineers and techs…they work in different areas of behavior of the product. TS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. That’s a pretty standard anti-education rant. — Bob Johnson No it isn’t. It’s a pretty standard response of an individual who has corrected screw ups by "engineers". There are boneheads in all fields of endeavor and engineering is just one of them. A good engineer is one who listens to the technicians who have worked with the project and uses their responses in his own evaluation. Egotism results in mistakes. HD in NY

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NO ONE is putting down education, just trying to point out all knowledge doesn’t come from some old ivy covered structure which may or may not of had a PE sign off on.  From your responses it appears you believe man was still living in caves until for first Engineering degreeand PE certificate was handed out. Mickey, except for a tiny minority of anklebiters, nitwits and self-absorbed fools, you’re preaching to the choir.   Anyone who knows ANYTHING about what is involved in "engineering" knows for a FACT that the vast majority of the work is done by people who do not have a PE and do not need it – even to satisfy some well-intentioned but foolhardy laws.   This thread and related ones have been kept alive by people with an obvious agenda of putting down anyone whose style or opinions they don’t like.  There is simply no substance otherwise. My advice – ignore them.   Their ilk has been around forever, standing on the sidelines and second-guessing those doing the work, intent on imposing THEIR juvenile ideas on a world they don’t begin to understand.  Some of the cleverest & best qualified designers that worked for me never saw the inside of a college. Yes – some were merely detailers (much as I was when I started out) but some were called Design Engineers and well deserved the title. Will Sill

Will, You remind me of two situations in the distant past.  First is a EE that was sent up to Thule to run the power generation system.  It didn’t take long to determine that he had NO practical knowledge at all and not much on the engineering side.  Why, he didn’t know how to wire in a light switch without shorting out the whole system.   Second situation was about a year later when I was a liaison on the BMEWS system. This required many meetings with the contractors, RCA and Western Electric.  One of them always brought a room full of degreed engineers AND one "technician" who was an old ham radio operator.  More than once I watched the "engineers" tearing their hair out trying to determine how to rectify a problem in the system. Meanwhile the "technician", who was sitting quietly in the corner, did some scribbling on a scrap of paper and then presented his solution, which was usually simple, to the point, and what was most important, it worked!!! On the other side, there are engineers that have made great gains for the society. I recently found that my brother, who had a PHD in Physics but was not a registered engineer, was the one who invented the thyristor as well as some 15 other patented items. For those that don’t know, the thyristor was the bridge between the transistors and the integrated circuit we know today. Conversely, I have had dealings with many "civil engineers" primarily those that are involved in highways and bridges that have no common sense at all.  They are the reason so many of the highways are in the shape they are in today.  I know that there must be some engineers somewhere that know how to design and build a bridge transition because I have run across some that are smooth. The majority are not… I could go on but, I digress… George

Response:

Mid, You assume way, way too much.  I have a college education so, this is not my personal beef. My position is that anyone who thinks that a piece of paper magically empowers them to do ANYTHING, is a fool! Achievers of all stripes, have, throughout history, done great and wonderful things and have never had a degree as many times, there were not colleges or universities from which to obtain a degree. I would surely advocate getting a degree rather than not but, to think that enables one to do engineering or design work is foolish. Cass

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As simple question to hobdbcgv, cass, will sill and the other bashers against the value of having a technical degree from an accredited university; do you have kids? If they are young, are you encouraging them to get a formal education? If they are post-high school age, are they in an engineering program or have they completed engineering school? All I ask is that you show some leadership and try to pass along the value of learning. I could care less if you have a chip on your shoulder about not having a formal education. A non-degreed person smart enough to perform some engineering tasks will almost always tell you that they would be better off with an engineering degree. You can find some recent examples, but most of them are programmers that have done well. As I tell my kids, a degree doesn’t guarantee you anything, it just improves your odds.

Response:

That is correct.  Long ago, the ham license was a credential of meaning. Today, sadly, it is not. You see, a lot of sheeple and other neer-do-wells, found the requirements of the license too hard so, they whined and stomped their hooves and the F.C.C. mistakenly listened to them and now ‘ham radio’ is more of a wasteland, comparatively. Still, it gives achievers a license to experiment and invent new methods. Cass – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Dave, In addition Will lies about his "engineering" background. His only exposure to engineering was way back when he was an entry level microwave technician who worked for engineers. He cites his "ham" license as evidence of his technical ability in electronics. He actually believes that this is a REAL credential. John In his day an amateur ticket was a real credential of electronic expertise. By the by, dear old Uncle Sam is stupid about engineering.  To design or repair radio transmitting circuits, he cares crap about a PE certificate, but he does require an FCC license. To look down your nose at hams is to discount many design concepts and break-through ideas developed by those ‘hams’. This has gone WAY beyond calling Will out for his shortcomings and turned into a vendetta. — Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mid, You assume way, way too much.  I have a college education so, this is not my personal beef. My position is that anyone who thinks that a piece of paper magically empowers them to do ANYTHING, is a fool! Achievers of all stripes, have, throughout history, done great and wonderful things and have never had a degree as many times, there were not colleges or universities from which to obtain a degree. I would surely advocate getting a degree rather than not but, to think that enables one to do engineering or design work is foolish. Cass

Have to 2nd this. Spent a considerable about of time the last several yrs of work fixing design mistakes by Degreed Engineers that didn’t fully understand the materials and manufacturing processes they were using. Can’t speak for all areas of engineering but the one I working in, I asked my peers to estimate what percent of the knowledge they needed to do their daily design tasks came from formal education.  Common response was a lot under 50%.  For me I’ll take the undegreed person that has a good understanding of that 50%+ area of knowledge and knows where his/her limits are and knows when to get help over the wet behind the ears engineer that thinks they know everything. Mickey — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

says… Georgia law provides for non-degreed individuals to be certified as Engineer-in-Training after 8 years of satisfactory work experience and for such individuals to be certified as Professional Engineer after an additional 7 years of satisfactory work experience. I am not competent to determine engineers’ qualifications, but I am competent to determine that the law provides for non-degreed Professional Engineers. I guess 40+ years of experience would get me a a PE in GA?

Yep – Just like 40+ years of being a Sanitary Engineer would get you a PE in GA.    You gotta be kidding, because if that’s true there must be a lot of PE’s in GA that are just experienced but not necessarily tested for knowledge. In most states, the PE exam is quite rigorous.  I could probably not pass the PA tests without a lot of refresher.

Will – Who do you think you are fooling? A few times here in the past you have had a lapse of judgement and tried to get involved in an engineering discussion.   It was obvious to all that you were totally clueless and you were laughed out of Dodge!   You were so transparent regarding your lack of any in depth engineering knowledge that you were pitiful. Lately you have been smart enough to avoid the technical engineering discussions and not demonstrate your total ignorance.   Good decision! It would be kinda hard for you to do "a lot of refresher" on subjects that you have never studied and have never known or understood! Now the answer to my first question: The only people here that you are fooling here are those as clueless and ignorant as you. Don’t even waste your time trying to run your BS on the knowledgeable and rational folks here.   It will NOT work! Your delusions and hallucinations have gotten the best of you! John S who knows recognizes phonies like "Toilet Paper Engineers" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think most people agree it’s at least as tough as the Bar Exams. Will Sill

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, Will, I’ve never questioned your competence (as opposed to your possession of formal credentials or your willingness to provide some basis for assessing your competence so that I and others can decide whether to listen to you or to others who do appear to have formal credentials), just your apparent lack of the formal credentials that are legally required to act as or call yourself a consulting engineer. So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications?

Where do you get those ludicrous questions? No one has even suggested that you do not need to know anything about engineering to be an expert on winterizing, blackwater, towing, or most other RV subjects. But, in many discussions here Will has lied and cited his 40+ years of engineering experience as credentials to add validity to some of his ridiculous opinions. And, in the past he has slipped up and tried to get into technical engineering discussions here.   He then exposed himself to be a totally clueless clown who lacked any real knowledge in the engineering field.  He was laughed out of those discussions by all involved.  He only fools those who are as clueless as he! Thus, notice that he generally (wisely) avoids technical discussions that require engineering knowledge.   He obviously knows that he is a liar who knows virtually nothing about engineering and would again demonstrate and prove his ignorance if he opens his mouth. John S who is tired of this ridiculous discussion.

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But, in many discussions here Will has lied and cited his 40+ years of engineering experience as credentials to add validity to some of his ridiculous opinions.

His ‘ridiculous opinions’ are just as valuable as other ‘ridiculous opinions’ that show up here.  Most of the time it is hard to tell ‘ridiculus opinions’ from opinions from statements that may actually be of use.   The thought that only those with engineering credentials always have valid opinions, is a bunch of bull!  I know many engineers with degrees and years of experience that are only knowledgable in area in which they worked.  The trick is to be smart enough to know what you don’t know. John S who is tired of this ridiculous discussion.

Obviously you are not tired of this discussion or you wouldn’t have posted you opinion or ‘ridiculous opinion’ whichever it may be. Ron Who has lot of opinions and probably some ‘ridiculous opinions’

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But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong. Well, I swan…..

Fact is, every state I know of licenses engineers. No license = no engineer, degree or not. … and no, I don’t have one.

Response:

The Masters in Accounting is not a requirement, XX number of hours in specific areas is–accounting, auditing, business law, etc.   The hours sometimes equal the degree. RVC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe the reason that certified accountants, certified physicians, certifed pharmacists, certified engineers, etc., are required to have experience, whereas attorneys are not, is that attorneys are not as likely to be called as expert witnesses to much of anything, therefore practical experience is not necessary.  Besides, even a jury of peers would be unlikely to accept the testimony of an attorney as truth <grinz. BTW, in many states, FL is one, a person with a Master’s degree in Accountancy may sit for the CPA exam, and presuming a passing grade, become a CPA without working even a day in govt or industry — that’s how they get professors! Pete

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Chas, Where did you get your degree, if you have one? Where did you take your bar?  I have asked this over and over and while not obligated to answer, you seem to be running and hiding from that last question.  It figures. Cass

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong. Well, I swan. .gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcaB I dunno how to pronounce it, but it certainly is backpedaling.  You can consider that as free feedback, Charlie.   Never thot you’d understand. Will Sill Will, I’ve never denied that. My point regarding competence (as opposed to legally required credentials for certain activities) is simply that if you both (a) disclaim credentials and (b) don’t explain the basis of your position, then I have no way of knowing whether or not you know what you’re talking about. CharlieG

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This forum is not the place for this crap.  Go showoff your Manhood somewhere else.  Besides Cass, from what I have seen, most people here think you’re worthless.  I think you’re a jerk that is pushing the limits of your electronic thesaurus. See you around big guy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chas, Where did you get your degree, if you have one? Where did you take your bar?  I have asked this over and over and while not obligated to answer, you seem to be running and hiding from that last question.  It figures. Cass But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong. Well, I swan. .gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcaB I dunno how to pronounce it, but it certainly is backpedaling.  You can consider that as free feedback, Charlie.   Never thot you’d understand. Will Sill Will, I’ve never denied that. My point regarding competence (as opposed to legally required credentials for certain activities) is simply that if you both (a) disclaim credentials and (b) don’t explain the basis of your position, then I have no way of knowing whether or not you know what  you’re talking about. CharlieG

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, Will, I’ve never questioned your competence (as opposed to your possession of formal credentials or your willingness to provide some basis for assessing your competence so that I and others can decide whether to listen to you or to others who do appear to have formal credentials), just your apparent lack of the formal credentials that are legally required to act as or call yourself a consulting engineer. So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications? Sheesh. — http://www.bobhatch.com Our web site about RV Stuff A work in progress

No, Bob, you don’t need to discount everything Will says just because he doesn’t have a degree. But when people who seem to know what they are talking about argue vociferously about something and I’m trying to decide whose advice to follow, it’s helpful to know the basis for what they are saying. Maybe this example from a previous post of mine would help you understand where I’m coming from. I said: Take Chris Bryant as a different example. AFAIK, Chris has never claimed any particular credentials, but he consistently gives thoughtful advice that is responsive to the specific issue raised and is obviously based on his personal, professional experience. He never hesitates to say he doesn’t know something or hasn’t enough experience with an issue to be sure of his conclusions, but overall his posts practically drip with expertise. I would never hesitate to follow Chris’s technical advice unless someone else provided a pretty good explanation of why he was wrong in a particular

case. Then, addressing Will, I said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You, OTOH, are well-known for dismissing the thoroughly discussed opinions and conclusions of credentialed engineers as hooey based on your asserted vast experience, while explicitly disclaiming relevant credentials ("I have no degrees"), not claiming other relevant credentials, and not explaining the basis for your opinion, and for dismissing as "bafflegab" any statement of fact or opinion with which you disagree, whether or not you have or claim any expertise on the subject. In contrast to Chris’s directly responsive and individually crafted advice, you post canned spiels on a few subjects (e.g., winterization, tire inflation, and towing ratings) that SEEM to be generally sound, if sometimes somewhat imprecise or not directly responsive to the question, but how are those (such as me) who lack the relevant expertise to judge whether these are the collected wisdom of someone with substantial expertise or simply rote recitations of something you picked up somewhere else if you disclaim credentials and provide no other basis for judging your expertise. Even a throwaway line like "based on my ___ years experience doing [insert brief description of experience relevant to the subject at hand]" would improve your credibility immensely.

I also noted in another post: 2 examples may help make my point. You clearly take a conservative approach to tow ratings. Without knowing whether you are competent, I can feel fairly confident that if I follow your advice I will be safer than if I follow the advice of those who are less conservative on this point. OTOH, my own research suggests that your position on inflation pressure for LT and RV (not P) tires MAY be less safe than David Osborne’s. When you call him a bozo or idiot but do not either provide credentials (as he also has not) or explain how he is misreading the materials he quotes, how am I (or anyone else) to assess which is the safer approach?

When Will is the only one who addresses a particular RV-related topic, or when most or all of those who do agree with him, I am inclined to think he probably knows what he is talking about, and I’m inclined to follow his advice unless it is inconsistent with my own experience. But when Will disagrees with others who also seem to know what they are talking about (and Will seems to get into more arguments than most of the posters in this NG), then credentials or the lack thereof provide a valuable tool for determining who to believe. The same principle applies to anyone, but Will is much more prone than other posters to simply call those with whom he disagrees idiots, rather than explaining why he thinks they are wrong and he is right. He’s also the only one in this NG (except Cass, whose advice I wouldn’t take on any subject) to accuse me of being ignorant of legal issues with which I have over 20 years of experience, which leads me to hold him to a higher standard than others. CharlieG

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Charlie, To me, you are the epitome of a scumbag, ambulance-chasing scoundrel of a lawyer who gives the profession their well-earned name. You discount anything that is not proven to you with pen to paper and therefore, everything else is just cannon-fodder. You were wrong about the patent and didn’t have enough guts to admit it. Folks such as yourself, sicken me and, in my opinion, are very, very, very much what is wrong with and ails this country. Also, only the most vile of an egoist tries to brag about his being an attorney by putting it in your sig. line ad nauseum. Keep this up and I won’t mince words. Cass

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, Will, I’ve never questioned your competence (as opposed to your possession of formal credentials or your willingness to provide some basis for assessing your competence so that I and others can decide whether to listen to you or to others who do appear to have formal credentials), just your apparent lack of the formal credentials that are legally required to act as or call yourself a consulting engineer. So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications? Sheesh. — http://www.bobhatch.com Our web site about RV Stuff A work in progress No, Bob, you don’t need to discount everything Will says just because he doesn’t have a degree. But when people who seem to know what they are talking about argue vociferously about something and I’m trying to decide whose advice to follow, it’s helpful to know the basis for what they are saying. Maybe this example from a previous post of mine would help you understand where I’m coming from. I said: Take Chris Bryant as a different example. AFAIK, Chris has never claimed any particular credentials, but he consistently gives thoughtful advice that is responsive to the specific issue raised and is obviously based on his personal, professional experience. He never hesitates to say he doesn’t know something or hasn’t enough experience with an issue to be sure of his conclusions, but overall his posts practically drip with expertise. I would never hesitate to follow Chris’s technical advice unless someone else provided a pretty good explanation of why he was wrong in a particular case. Then, addressing Will, I said: You, OTOH, are well-known for dismissing the thoroughly discussed opinions and conclusions of credentialed engineers as hooey based on your asserted vast experience, while explicitly disclaiming relevant credentials ("I have no degrees"), not claiming other relevant credentials, and not explaining the basis for your opinion, and for dismissing as "bafflegab" any statement of fact or opinion with which you disagree, whether or not you have or claim any expertise on the subject. In contrast to Chris’s directly responsive and individually crafted advice, you post canned spiels on a few subjects (e.g., winterization, tire inflation, and towing ratings) that SEEM to be generally sound, if sometimes somewhat imprecise or not directly responsive to the question, but how are those (such as me) who lack the relevant expertise to judge whether these are the collected wisdom of someone with substantial expertise or simply rote recitations of something you picked up somewhere else if you disclaim credentials and provide no other basis for judging your expertise. Even a throwaway line like "based on my ___ years experience doing [insert brief description of experience relevant to the subject at hand]" would improve your credibility immensely. I also noted in another post: 2 examples may help make my point. You clearly take a conservative approach to tow ratings. Without knowing whether you are competent, I can feel fairly confident that if I follow your advice I will be safer than if I follow the advice of those who are less conservative on this point. OTOH, my own research suggests that your position on inflation pressure for LT and RV (not P) tires MAY be less safe than David Osborne’s. When you call him a bozo or idiot but do not either provide credentials (as he also has not) or explain how he is misreading the materials he quotes, how am I (or anyone else) to assess which is the safer approach? When Will is the only one who addresses a particular RV-related topic, or when most or all of those who do agree with him, I am inclined to think he probably knows what he is talking about, and I’m inclined to follow his advice unless it is inconsistent with my own experience. But when Will disagrees with others who also seem to know what they are talking about (and Will seems to get into more arguments than most of the posters in this NG), then credentials or the lack thereof provide a valuable tool for determining who to believe. The same principle applies to anyone, but Will is much more prone than other posters to simply call those with whom he disagrees idiots, rather than explaining why he thinks they are wrong and he is right. He’s also the only one in this NG (except Cass, whose advice I wouldn’t take on any subject) to accuse me of being ignorant of legal issues with which I have over 20 years of experience, which leads me to hold him to a higher standard than others. CharlieG

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But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong. Well, I swan. .gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcaB I dunno how to pronounce it, but it certainly is backpedaling.  You can consider that as free feedback, Charlie.   Never thot you’d understand. Will Sill

Will, I’ve never denied that. My point regarding competence (as opposed to legally required credentials for certain activities) is simply that if you both (a) disclaim credentials and (b) don’t explain the basis of your position, then I have no way of knowing whether or not you know what you’re talking about. CharlieG

Response:

So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications?

No, Bob, I don’t think that’s necessary at all.  But, with the exception of Charlie and Wilf, I don’t remember anyone mentioning thay they posess any special qualifications in any particular field relating to any of the subjects discussed here.  Most people in this group write about their own experiences, and the conclusions they’ve drawn from them. It appears that Wilf, on the other hand,  chose to back up his assertions (and I don’t know, nor do I care, what the particular subject was) by claiming that he is "an engineer", i.e., implying that his assertions or opinions  are superior to those without such qualifications. While there is a  lot of agreement among the contributors on a lot of the subjects dicussed here, that’s not always the case.  One subject that comes to mind is synthetic oil, where Will’s opinion differed from most of the others. Instead of citing personal experiences or data from tests as others did, Will expected this opinion to be accepted as more qualified because he is, according to his claim, "an engineer" when in fact he is not.  It was merely a job title, non-transferable from one employer to another. A lot of us have done some "engineering", even if it only consists of revamping storage space inside an RV, but I don’t remember anyone claiming to be "engineer" because of it. KGP

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I believe the reason that certified accountants, certified physicians, certifed pharmacists, certified engineers, etc., are required to have experience, whereas attorneys are not, is that attorneys are not as likely to be called as expert witnesses to much of anything, therefore practical experience is not necessary.  Besides, even a jury of peers would be unlikely to accept the testimony of an attorney as truth <grinz. BTW, in many states, FL is one, a person with a Master’s degree in Accountancy may sit for the CPA exam, and presuming a passing grade, become a CPA without working even a day in govt or industry — that’s how they get professors! Pete

Response:

So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications?

OK, I’m a PE so I got to chime in…. In most states, the law prohibits you from offering engineering services to the public unless you are a licensed engineer. Now, no one is prohibited from spouting off on any topic they choose, including engineering. You are prohibited from saying "hire me and I’ll engineer your new LP Gas system."  You can tell everyone how you think it should be done, but you can’t call yourself an engineer and offer to design it for a fee. I think few states would go after anyone for calling themselves an engineer unless they advertised their services for sale. You can call yourself an engineer in a company, and you don’t need a license, since you are not offering those services to the public. Licensing requirements vary; in most states you need a 4 year engineering degree, 4 years "acceptable" experience, recommendations from other PEs, and you need to pass both the FE and PE exams. -Dondo

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But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong.

Well, I swan. .gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcab, gniladepkcaB I dunno how to pronounce it, but it certainly is backpedaling.  You can consider that as free feedback, Charlie.   Never thot you’d understand. Will Sill

Response:

Again, Will, I’ve never questioned your competence (as opposed to your possession of formal credentials or your willingness to provide some basis for assessing your competence so that I and others can decide whether to listen to you or to others who do appear to have formal credentials), just your apparent lack of the formal credentials that are legally required to act as or call yourself a consulting engineer.

So I’ve gotta ask. Because Will cannot seem to provide a degree as an engineer should I then discount all his input on RV’s? Are his postings on how to winterize a rig useless because he doesn’t have the sheepskin? Should his sharing the best way to take care of a blackwater system on an RV be ignored because he doesn’t have an engineering degree? Are we all going to be held to this standard? Does that mean that the only thing you can contribute to the group is legal advice about RV’s? Does everyone have to provide a resume and proof of education to participate in the group? Does all advice and opinions need to be backed up with educational qualifications? Sheesh. — http://www.bobhatch.com Our web site about RV Stuff A work in progress

Response:

Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it.

Response:

Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it.

My Sanitary Engineer seems to have it regardless of what you say. MV — This mail checked and found to be free of any virus.

Response:

Please don’t feed the trolls. bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it. Give it a rest.  There are multiple professions and occupations that use the title ‘engineer’ which do not require a PE license.  As was discussed, PE’s have attempted to co-opt the word just as physicians have attempted to co-opt the word doctor. — Dave

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it. My Sanitary Engineer seems to have it regardless of what you say. MV — This mail checked and found to be free of any virus.

I tried to explain all this to a highway saftey engineer who was directing traffic around a pothole, but he spoke only spanish.

Response:

Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it.

Idiot, baby troll. — http://www.bobhatch.com Our web site about RV Stuff A work in progress

Response:

Subject line says it all Loud whining does not change a thing. You didn’t earn it, you don’t have it, that settles it.

Georgia law provides for non-degreed individuals to be certified as Engineer-in-Training after 8 years of satisfactory work experience and for such individuals to be certified as Professional Engineer after an additional 7 years of satisfactory work experience. I am not competent to determine engineers’ qualifications, but I am competent to determine that the law provides for non-degreed Professional Engineers. — CharlieG NOT the standard "I am not a lawyer" disclaimer: I AM a lawyer, but the contents of this post are intended for informational purposes only and not as legal advice. If you have a legal dispute or want legal advice related to anything mentioned in this post, you should consult an attorney who is licensed to practice in your state.

Response:

Georgia law provides for non-degreed individuals to be certified as Engineer-in-Training after 8 years of satisfactory work experience and for such individuals to be certified as Professional Engineer after an additional 7 years of satisfactory work experience. I am not competent to determine engineers’ qualifications, but I am competent to determine that the law provides for non-degreed Professional Engineers.

I guess 40+ years of experience would get me a a PE in GA?    You gotta be kidding, because if that’s true there must be a lot of PE’s in GA that are just experienced but not necessarily tested for knowledge. In most states, the PE exam is quite rigorous.  I could probably not pass the PA tests without a lot of refresher.   I think most people agree it’s at least as tough as the Bar Exams. Will Sill

Response:

I could probably not pass the PA tests without a lot of refresher.   I think most people agree it’s at least as tough as the Bar Exams. Will Sill

You mean the Bar Exams where 90% of those who take the test pass?  I thought the PE test was supposed to be hard! <gr Ron Who passed the CPA test where the pass rate only runs 15% or so.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Georgia law provides for non-degreed individuals to be certified as Engineer-in-Training after 8 years of satisfactory work experience and for such individuals to be certified as Professional Engineer after an additional 7 years of satisfactory work experience. I am not competent to determine engineers’ qualifications, but I am competent to determine that the law provides for non-degreed Professional Engineers. I guess 40+ years of experience would get me a a PE in GA?    You gotta be kidding, because if that’s true there must be a lot of PE’s in GA that are just experienced but not necessarily tested for knowledge. In most states, the PE exam is quite rigorous.  I could probably not pass the PA tests without a lot of refresher.   I think most people agree it’s at least as tough as the Bar Exams. Will Sill

In GA, 8 years of satisfactory experience qualifies one to take the EiT exam, and 7 more years qualifies one to take the PE exam. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I would bet that most states’ laws are similar. I have no idea what the licensing board considers to be satisfactory experience. Given what PEs do vs. what lawyers do, I would hope that the PE exam is tougher than the bar exam. In most cases, lawyers’ errors are not life-threatening. I would expect that almost anyone, no matter how competent, would need refresher study to pass most professional exams. Again, Will, I’ve never questioned your competence (as opposed to your possession of formal credentials or your willingness to provide some basis for assessing your competence so that I and others can decide whether to listen to you or to others who do appear to have formal credentials), just your apparent lack of the formal credentials that are legally required to act as or call yourself a consulting engineer. But those who say you can’t be a "real" engineer without a degree are clearly wrong. CharlieG

Response:

I could probably not pass the PA tests without a lot of refresher.   I think most people agree it’s at least as tough as the Bar Exams. Will Sill You mean the Bar Exams where 90% of those who take the test pass?  I thought the PE test was supposed to be hard! <gr Ron Who passed the CPA test where the pass rate only runs 15% or so.

I have to agree that the bar exam typically is less rigorous than most other professional exams. And the lawyers’ guild, unlike the engineers’ guild, the physicians’ guild, and (I believe) the accountants’ guild (and probably others), lets anyone with a law degree take the exam and become a full-fledged lawyer with NO requirement of supervised experience first. Part of the reason we have too many lawyers with more imagination than good sense. CharlieG

Response:

Question:

I just visited the gnucash site, http://www.gnucash.org, and was surprised to see that gnucash will also be for small business accounting, not just personal finance. This is quite a change from their previous direction, which was solely in the personal finance (Quicken) direction. Is anyone familiar with the new small business accounting features?  Comments? Chris

Response:

I just visited the gnucash site, http://www.gnucash.org, and was surprised to see that gnucash will also be for small business accounting, not just personal finance. This is quite a change from their previous direction, which was solely in the personal finance (Quicken) direction. Is anyone familiar with the new small business accounting features?  Comments?

I think it has always been _usable_ for small business as it follows a double-entry style format rather than simply keeping account balances and check records. — Todd Stephens

Response:

Question:

SEC Chief Demands Sweeping Accounting Changes Private Sector Should Control Audit Watchdogs <snip Pitt said the accounting profession has not been able to successfully monitor itself. ”We are suggesting, without always being clearly heard, regulation (should be done) by the private sector and not by the profession,” he said. <snip The new oversight body would be paid for by companies and the stock markets, thereby eliminating ”one problem inherent” in that the current oversight board is funded by the profession, Pitt said. <snip http://accounting.smartpros.com/x32742.xml — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Does Mr. Pitt mean that Enron should have set the standards by which it was audited? De facto, it looks like it did anyway.

… Pitt said the accounting profession has not been able to successfully monitor itself. ”We are suggesting, without always being clearly heard, regulation (should be done) by the private sector and not by the profession,” he said.

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

Does Mr. Pitt mean that Enron should have set the standards by which it was audited? De facto, it looks like it did anyway.

So far I haven’t seen anything from Mr. Pitt about standards setting.  What he is talking about here is monitoring; big difference. Essentially the difference between legislating and law enforcement. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Well heck, aren’t they ‘monitoring’ already?  If the private sector auditee doesn’t like the auditors application of standards, they fire the auditor.  That sounds like private sector ‘enforcement’ at the street level. IMHO, from reading Mr. Pitt’s (wasn’t there a Seinfeld character named Mr. Pitt?) statement as you quoted, its pure D.C. smoke. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does Mr. Pitt mean that Enron should have set the standards by which it was audited? De facto, it looks like it did anyway. So far I haven’t seen anything from Mr. Pitt about standards setting.  What he is talking about here is monitoring; big difference. Essentially the difference between legislating and law enforcement. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.com

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

IMHO, from reading Mr. Pitt’s (wasn’t there a Seinfeld character named Mr. Pitt?) statement as you quoted, its pure D.C. smoke.

Of course it is D.C. smoke.  I’m sure Mr. Pitt will do all he can to keep it that way.   Unfortunately (for him), there is real fire behind this thing.  He would be well advised to find some asbestos pants and get to work or he’s going  to get seriously burned.   — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

]Well heck, aren’t they ‘monitoring’ already?  If the private sector ]auditee doesn’t like the auditors application of standards, they fire ]the auditor.  That sounds like private sector ‘enforcement’ at the ]street level. If I was an auditee without and audit or accounting background, how would I know how well the auditor applied the standards? Even if I am paying for the external audit, I want it to be true and independant. How do I tell? Is his signature on the line still enough? —  ,-,_|  George Dau.                     /    * gedau at isa dot mim dot com         _,–_/ I live in .au, you need to add that       v  to the end of my e-mail address above.

Response:

The fault in your reasoning is that the Fortune 1000, who use the internationals, do have people who know such things.  Remember the problem; ‘the f1000 are corrupted because they higher off their auditors’? My position is, the present system is probably as good as you can hope for, but it relies on men of integrity, honesty and moral fiber. Unfortunately the Internationals haven’t been hiring those for the last fifty odd years and the colleges have not been fulfilling there position as gate keeper to the profession ensuring that only people with those qualities were graduated. Anyone who thinks that the problem can be solved with more laws is dreaming.  Actually, the people involved with Global Crossing, Enron, and the next one, seem to have been breaking rules, regulations, and laws with some regularity.  Walter Williams was right, we (the United States of America) are no longer a nation of law, we are a nation of laws, ….and very wealthy lawyers. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ]Well heck, aren’t they ‘monitoring’ already?  If the private sector ]auditee doesn’t like the auditors application of standards, they fire ]the auditor.  That sounds like private sector ‘enforcement’ at the ]street level. If I was an auditee without and audit or accounting background, how would I know how well the auditor applied the standards? Even if I am paying for the external audit, I want it to be true and independant. How do I tell? Is his signature on the line still enough? —  ,-,_|  George Dau. /    * gedau at isa dot mim dot com _,–_/ I live in .au, you need to add that       v  to the end of my e-mail address above.

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

]Well heck, aren’t they ‘monitoring’ already?  If the private sector ]auditee doesn’t like the auditors application of standards, they fire ]the auditor.  That sounds like private sector ‘enforcement’ at the ]street level. If I was an auditee without and audit or accounting background, how would I know how well the auditor applied the standards? Even if I am paying for the external audit, I want it to be true and independant. How do I tell?

The problem is NOT the auditors imposing some off-the-wall, misleading, poorly disclosed fraudulent or near-fraudulent accounting treatment for some transaction on an unwitting, ignorant group of company managers. The problem is the company managers coming up with an off-the-wall, misleading, poorly disclosed fraudulent or near-fraudulent accounting treatment for some transaction (either with the auditors help or without) then getting the auditor to go along for fear of losing $47 million in fees this year and $100 million next year. So, if you were the auditee (or the senior management of the auditee), there wouldn’t be any significant departure from or twisting of the rules unless you wanted those departures and twistings. Regards, Bill

Response:

(This post is not an example of stuffed up attributions. I am responding to both at once, in one follow up. Hope it makes some sense.) ]The problem is NOT the auditors imposing some off-the-wall, misleading, ]poorly disclosed fraudulent or near-fraudulent accounting treatment for ]some transaction on an unwitting, ignorant group of company managers. ]The problem is the company managers coming up with an off-the-wall, ]misleading, poorly disclosed fraudulent or near-fraudulent accounting ]treatment for some transaction (either with the auditors help or ]without) then getting the auditor to go along for fear of losing $47 ]million in fees this year and $100 million next year.

]The fault in your reasoning is that the Fortune 1000, who use the ]internationals, do have people who know such things.  Remember the ]problem; ‘the f1000 are corrupted because they higher off their ]auditors’? In both cases the independance of the auditor is really the question. William is saying that the auditor will go along with wrong treatment to keep the account next year. Ron is saying that the auditee is hiring other services from the auditor (which has been discussed at length in other threads here over the last year or so). In each case the auditor is not independant as I would expect a true external auditor to be. I think that a very small organization would be immune from this since the stakes are just not there for the external auditor, and they are providing no other services to the auditee. I still think I need "Accounting for dummies" and "Audit for real dummies" before June, even though we are paying someone else to do this

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SEC Chief Demands Sweeping Accounting Changes Private Sector Should Control Audit Watchdogs <snip Pitt said the accounting profession has not been able to successfully monitor itself. ”We are suggesting, without always being clearly heard, regulation (should be done) by the private sector and not by the profession,” he said. <snip The new oversight body would be paid for by companies and the stock markets, thereby eliminating ”one problem inherent” in that the current oversight board is funded by the profession, Pitt said. <snip http://accounting.smartpros.com/x32742.xml

Isn’t the FASB already privately funded? My school classes said it was……. Damn, the Gummint is pretty dumb. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Does Mr. Pitt mean that Enron should have set the standards by which it was audited? De facto, it looks like it did anyway. So far I haven’t seen anything from Mr. Pitt about standards setting.  What he is talking about here is monitoring; big difference. Essentially the difference between legislating and law enforcement.

sounds like a lot of fast talk to me. It’s an election year BTW, isn’t it? —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

IMHO, from reading Mr. Pitt’s (wasn’t there a Seinfeld character named Mr. Pitt?) statement as you quoted, its pure D.C. smoke. Of course it is D.C. smoke.  I’m sure Mr. Pitt will do all he can to keep it that way.   Unfortunately (for him), there is real fire behind this thing.  He would be well advised to find some asbestos pants and get to work or he’s going  to get seriously burned.  

Meanwhile, everyone else move yo’ money into overseas companies right quick, so y’all don’t suffer from the consequences of our authorities not admitting they caused  it. Remember the "wink and a nod" thread? Now the same people are advocating more regulation, and no one sees this as a contradiction in terms and consistency? —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

The fault in your reasoning is that the Fortune 1000, who use the internationals, do have people who know such things.  Remember the problem; ‘the f1000 are corrupted because they higher off their auditors’? My position is, the present system is probably as good as you can hope for, but it relies on men of integrity, honesty and moral fiber. Unfortunately the Internationals haven’t been hiring those for the last fifty odd years and the colleges have not been fulfilling there position as gate keeper to the profession ensuring that only people with those qualities were graduated.

Don’t see where any college ever did. I mean, have any of you ever seen a college application with a morals and ethics section attached, even during the 1950’s? Me, I think the profession grabbed the "competition" bug in the late 80’s, and tried to compete and out power the other audit companies but based on price, not performance-the upshot being that quality was assumed. Since mostly what people hire for is quality accuracy and completeness, that meant if you had to lower prices, you had to lower one of those 3 to lower the price. That’s how we ended up where we are now. Mr. Todd, BTW, did you ever see Edwards Deming’s demonstration of how quality affects output, where he holds a box of parts over another box, and then tells someone in the audience to shake the part-filled box over the lower box and count how many make it in? That’s the mental image I have with your comment…Demings subjects were jsut as successful too. I remember a few years ago whent he fraud cases like ZzzzzBest hit the papers, and CPA’s and the Big 8 claimed it was the colleges fault for the problems they were experiencing, despite court evidence showing the companies were trying to get people to work for free, which of course they didn’t. They didn’t pay for overtime, training, nor did they give enough time for the auditors to do their work. So naturally they were easily manipulated later when they couldn’t do the requisite work. The real problem is the atittude of the people at the top of these companies, the audit partners-they care about money alone, and they reward that alone. Remember the partner who stole from, I think it was Andersen, and then later she was hired at a higher salary by another firm? If you are going to reward selfishness at the top, even when it costs the firm money, then you will get that same result, the one you have now. No college can stop that either. If businesses keep rewarding soemthing different than honesty and integrity, that is exactly what they will get. Betcha Not one of the audit partners at Andersen will have to give back a red cent, and they can and will be hired by another firm even if they leave Andersen. No amount of reading, role-playing nor special projects in school will change that. If reading could, then all we would have to do to stop crime in this country would be to put up billboards on every highway saying "thievery-Bad; Lying-Bad" and we wouldn’t have the Enron problems. But I think there is mroe to it than reading. Anyone who thinks that the problem can be solved with more laws is dreaming.

Exactly. Maybe more guidance, sure, but someone at the FASB would have to make a decision and put things on paper, and Americans haven’t done that well for a while. But we could, as long as we actually made a decision.  Actually, the people involved with Global Crossing, Enron, and the next one, seem to have been breaking rules, regulations, and laws with some regularity.  

How about enforcing the laws, and shaming the ones who fail? Used to work for illegitimacy, I know. Walter Williams was right, we (the United States of America) are no longer a nation of law, we are a nation of laws, ….and very wealthy lawyers.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ]Well heck, aren’t they ‘monitoring’ already?  If the private sector ]auditee doesn’t like the auditors application of standards, they fire ]the auditor.  That sounds like private sector ‘enforcement’ at the ]street level. If I was an auditee without and audit or accounting background, how would I know how well the auditor applied the standards? Even if I am paying for the external audit, I want it to be true and independant. How do I tell? The problem is NOT the auditors imposing some off-the-wall, misleading, poorly disclosed fraudulent or near-fraudulent accounting treatment for some transaction on an unwitting, ignorant group of company managers. The problem is the company managers coming up with an off-the-wall, misleading, poorly disclosed fraudulent or near-fraudulent accounting treatment for some transaction

This part is a half-truth.  (either with the auditors help or without) then getting the auditor to go along for fear of losing $47 million in fees this year and $100 million next year.

Well, that’s the breaks in life, youngster. No one was holding a gun to Andersen’s head, and you are being ridiculous when it comes to saying that money is the only consideration here. Remember this quote? Luke 16:13 ""No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." (NIV) You cannot blindly follow money alone and expect that long term values such as trust and rightness will be followed. Quick and easy money wil lwin. If you want a long term cultural obsessions with ethics, to the point people follow principles even when it is against their immediate short-term gratification, then you will have to reward those actions which contribute to it and those people who follow them even when it doesn’t net the company money right away. If you keep rewarding short term gratification then you can’t really complain when things like Enron happen. I stop at stop signs late at night, even when no one is coming in either direction. do you? If you can say yes, then you can understand why I don’t believe Andersen would have truly suffered for saying "no" to Enron. So, if you were the auditee (or the senior management of the auditee), there wouldn’t be any significant departure from or twisting of the rules unless you wanted those departures and twistings.

Understanding why they did something does not make it right. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

The problem is NOT the auditors imposing some off-the-wall, misleading, poorly disclosed fraudulent or near-fraudulent accounting treatment for some transaction on an unwitting, ignorant group of company managers. The problem is the company managers coming up with an off-the-wall, misleading, poorly disclosed fraudulent or near-fraudulent accounting treatment for some transaction This part is a half-truth.

Are you suggesting that is also a half-lie? If so, be more specific. Aside: All my comments that follow are motivated primarily by coltdawg’s implication that I am in some way being dishonest.  (either with the auditors help or without) then getting the auditor to go along for fear of losing $47 million in fees this year and $100 million next year. Well, that’s the breaks in life, youngster. No one was holding a gun to Andersen’s head, and you are being ridiculous when it comes to saying that money is the only consideration here.

Tell me, child, where did I say money is the only consideration? Remember this quote? Luke 16:13 ""No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." (NIV)

Yes, in fact, I do. You point being? You cannot blindly follow money alone and expect that long term values such as trust and rightness will be followed. Quick and easy money wil lwin. If you want a long term cultural obsessions with ethics, to the point people follow principles even when it is against their immediate short-term gratification, then you will have to reward those actions which contribute to it and those people who follow them even when it doesn’t net the company money right away. If you keep rewarding short term gratification then you can’t really complain when things like Enron happen.

Where did I say I reward short term gratification or that I believe rewarding short term gratification is a good thing. Where, in fact, did I say anything at all about short term gratification. How, by the way, would one go about rewarding a short term gratification if one wished to do so? Finally, with regard to this paragraph, how is it that you seem to believe it is OK to imply that I blindly follow money alone? I stop at stop signs late at night, even when no one is coming in either direction. do you? If you can say yes, then you can understand why I don’t believe Andersen would have truly suffered for saying "no" to Enron.

I also stop at stop signs in the middle of the day when traffic is coming. I confess that I do not see the logical flow from your pride in yourself for stopping to Andersen’s practice management decisions. I did not say Andersen would have suffered "for saying ‘no’ to Enron." I offered one reason why they did not say no. By the way, where did you get the idea that I care one way or the other about whether Andersen would have suffered more or less by saying no? My primary concern is not the degree of Andersen’s suffering. So, if you were the auditee (or the senior management of the auditee), there wouldn’t be any significant departure from or twisting of the rules unless you wanted those departures and twistings. Understanding why they did something does not make it right.

Where on earth have you gotten the idea that I believe that gaining an understanding of the motives of Enron’s executives or Andersen’s auditors would somehow make what they did be right? Regards, Bill

Response:

This part is a half-truth. Are you suggesting that is also a half-lie? If so, be more specific. Yes. I’m saying it’s misleading and a half truth because you are putting the fault on the managers, which I don’t think is true. Auditors are supposed to verify that the financial statements are free from material misrepresentation or mistakes, so your shifting the blame onto the company is unfair.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I was an auditee without and audit or accounting background, how would I know how well the auditor applied the standards? Even if I am paying for the external audit, I want it to be true and independant. How do I tell? The problem is NOT the auditors imposing some off-the-wall, misleading, poorly disclosed fraudulent or near-fraudulent accounting treatment for some transaction on an unwitting, ignorant group of company managers. The problem is the company managers coming up with an off-the-wall, misleading, poorly disclosed fraudulent or near-fraudulent accounting treatment for some transaction (either with the auditors help or without) then getting the auditor to go along for fear of losing $47 million in fees this year and $100 million next year. So, if you were the auditee (or the senior management of the auditee), there wouldn’t be any significant departure from or twisting of the rules unless you wanted those departures and twistings.

I don’t see any "half truth" here.  What I see is a perfectly adequate response by an accounting professor to a request for information from someone who appears to be a non-accountant. The response is obviously not an exhaustive commentary, however an exhaustive commentary was not called for. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Yes. I’m saying it’s misleading and a half truth

**PLONK**

Response:

<snip all the details ]Okay then, I’l lask for clemency. For what it’s worth, I was very satisfied with the answer I got, and likely would not have understood anything beyond what was offered. As Jim said, I am not an accountant.

Response:

Question:

Hi, Who can give me accounting information on Ansett airline company of Australia (and their recent collapse)? Any good links to sources are also more than welcome. All the best, Rick Esmeijer

Response:

Use the internet search capability. ie. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Ansett+airline+collapse&btnG=Goog le+Search http://www.google.com Ansett airline collapse This results in a number of links, go from there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Who can give me accounting information on Ansett airline company of Australia (and their recent collapse)? Any good links to sources are also more than welcome. All the best, Rick Esmeijer

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t mind working. Besides, this week we get Wednesday off, so it will be an easy week. I knew there was something wrong with you. What is it? Are you kind of a normie or what? I get more depressed when I’m not working. When I’m sitting at home alone it is difficult not to feel lonely and start worrying. Work keeps my mind off my problems for a while.

Yes, it is the same for me. My insides tell me I want to lay down and be a lazy bum every time I think of working, but after I have had my share of struggle to get things going at work, I feel much better afterwards than if I had remained the lazy bum. If I remain in front of the computer all day for a couple of days, I feel really crappy in the end. Today it was not that I didn’t want to work, it was that I thought that my new boss had taken to dislike me for some reason. But then again, he was kind of amiable today. I guess we (depressives) are too sensitive sometimes, huh?  – Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

stargate.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m curious as to what kind of work you do??  I didn’t read the thread someone started recently on careers and what people do, so I don’t know if you responded there or not.  You said in the Be consistent thread that you are 51 and a physicist.  I’m 45 and a pharmacologist by training.  But I left my faculty position to become a stay-at-home dad (well, that would be one subjective interpretation of the events eh!!!).  Anyway, I was just curious what you "do" for work. Interesting you are a pharmacologist, now I know where to aim to inquire about my medications, LOL. I am a professor in physics, I won’t tell you where. I work mainly on gravitational waves. I am on a sabbatical leave of absence which ends on December. I am writing a book and hence I didn’t go anywhere else to work. But my wife got into a gambling problem which lead us to bankruptcy, and hence, I decided to take another job just to keep the vessel from doing water. It had to be something easy and which wouldn’t take much of my time (I need it to hang around in ASD, you know? Ja). So, I took a position as Interpreter. Spanish interpreter. You know, the kind who interprets between a doctor and a patient when both of them speak a different language; English and Spanish in my case. It’s fun, but I was having problems with my boss, who is a blunt young lad. But today he was very kind to me; I guess he is another of the bugs we don’t like, huh? You work on gravitational waves??  That sounds interesting.  So I suppose you believe that you know things about gravity objectively then eh??!!

Yep, I and all my colleagues share this philosophical principle. To be honest, I have never met a scientist who believes knowledge is subjective; you are the first one I know of. I got a bunch of responses to you that I am working on.

Just fire. I can wait. I know sometimes our answers or responses need a bit of digestion.   But I’ve got laundry to do, and I have to mow the lawn, and a bit of an outside job myself, blah blah, so it might take a while yet.  But I think the basic problem we are having in the "be consistent" thread is that we’re not starting from the same place.

I guess we have advanced a good deal in spite of a lot of obscurities which are the eternal bug when philosophising. I was astonished when you admitted that subjectivists are enclosed in their own subjectivism, but then I grew to acknowledge you are more committed than I thought.   That is, we probably don’t agree on some basic definitions, and hence much of what we hear the other person say doesn’t make sense at some point.

Yep, I agree. For example when objective knowledge is confused with absolute knowledge. We’ve got to be careful. But we’ve got time to work on it.  I’m enjoying talking with you.

Same from this end. Glad you took the challenge. Cordially, — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

I don’t mind working. Besides, this week we get Wednesday off, so it will be an easy week. I knew there was something wrong with you. What is it? Are you kind of a normie or what?

I get more depressed when I’m not working. When I’m sitting at home alone it is difficult not to feel lonely and start worrying. Work keeps my mind off my problems for a while.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m curious as to what kind of work you do??  I didn’t read the thread someone started recently on careers and what people do, so I don’t know if you responded there or not.  You said in the Be consistent thread that you are 51 and a physicist.  I’m 45 and a pharmacologist by training.  But I left my faculty position to become a stay-at-home dad (well, that would be one subjective interpretation of the events eh!!!).  Anyway, I was just curious what you "do" for work. Interesting you are a pharmacologist, now I know where to aim to inquire about my medications, LOL. I am a professor in physics, I won’t tell you where. I work mainly on gravitational waves. I am on a sabbatical leave of absence which ends on December. I am writing a book and hence I didn’t go anywhere else to work. But my wife got into a gambling problem which lead us to bankruptcy, and hence, I decided to take another job just to keep the vessel from doing water. It had to be something easy and which wouldn’t take much of my time (I need it to hang around in ASD, you know? Ja). So, I took a position as Interpreter. Spanish interpreter. You know, the kind who interprets between a doctor and a patient when both of them speak a different language; English and Spanish in my case. It’s fun, but I was having problems with my boss, who is a blunt young lad. But today he was very kind to me; I guess he is another of the bugs we don’t like, huh?

You work on gravitational waves??  That sounds interesting.  So I suppose you believe that you know things about gravity objectively then eh??!! I got a bunch of responses to you that I am working on.  But I’ve got laundry to do, and I have to mow the lawn, and a bit of an outside job myself, blah blah, so it might take a while yet.  But I think the basic problem we are having in the "be consistent" thread is that we’re not starting from the same place.  That is, we probably don’t agree on some basic definitions, and hence much of what we hear the other person say doesn’t make sense at some point. But we’ve got time to work on it.  I’m enjoying talking with you. Sincerely Stewart —

Response:

LOL. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please no work, please ……. I agree.  I do *not* want to go to work today (or most days). The whole concept of working for a living sucks ….. Quite, but, hey, my boss suddenly started being kind to me; I wonder what bug got into his pants. A humbug?

Response:

targate.net… Please no work, please ……. I’m curious as to what kind of work you do??  I didn’t read the thread someone started recently on careers and what people do, so I don’t know if you responded there or not.  You said in the Be consistent thread that you are 51 and a physicist.  I’m 45 and a pharmacologist by training.  But I left my faculty position to become a stay-at-home dad (well, that would be one subjective interpretation of the events eh!!!).  Anyway, I was just curious what you "do" for work.

Interesting you are a pharmacologist, now I know where to aim to inquire about my medications, LOL. I am a professor in physics, I won’t tell you where. I work mainly on gravitational waves. I am on a sabbatical leave of absence which ends on December. I am writing a book and hence I didn’t go anywhere else to work. But my wife got into a gambling problem which lead us to bankruptcy, and hence, I decided to take another job just to keep the vessel from doing water. It had to be something easy and which wouldn’t take much of my time (I need it to hang around in ASD, you know? Ja). So, I took a position as Interpreter. Spanish interpreter. You know, the kind who interprets between a doctor and a patient when both of them speak a different language; English and Spanish in my case. It’s fun, but I was having problems with my boss, who is a blunt young lad. But today he was very kind to me; I guess he is another of the bugs we don’t like, huh? — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

I don’t mind working. Besides, this week we get Wednesday off, so it will be an easy week.

I knew there was something wrong with you. What is it? Are you kind of a normie or what? — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

Please no work, please ……. I agree.  I do *not* want to go to work today (or most days). The whole concept of working for a living sucks …..

Quite, but, hey, my boss suddenly started being kind to me; I wonder what bug got into his pants. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

Please no work, please …….

I’m curious as to what kind of work you do??  I didn’t read the thread someone started recently on careers and what people do, so I don’t know if you responded there or not.  You said in the Be consistent thread that you are 51 and a physicist.  I’m 45 and a pharmacologist by training.  But I left my faculty position to become a stay-at-home dad (well, that would be one subjective interpretation of the events eh!!!).  Anyway, I was just curious what you "do" for work. Sincerely Stewart —

Response:

I don’t mind working. Besides, this week we get Wednesday off, so it will be an easy week.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please no work, please ……. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

Please no work, please …….

I agree.  I do *not* want to go to work today (or most days). The whole concept of working for a living sucks ….. Bruce.

Response:

Please no work, please ……. — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

– Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

say: Please no work, please ……. personally, i’m not looking forward to wednesday when i have to work a double shift.

Ouch, I understand that. I want to wake up 50 years from now; I bet by that time no one will have to work; everything will be done by a machine. We will be able to get depressed any time without accounting to no one. Great isn’t it? — Teilhard The Extraterrestrial

Response:

Question:

By Sage, I assume you mean Peachtree.  My preference woult be Peachtree.  No yearly payroll fees, better accounting.  Takes about a day more to learn.  Data mineing is possible.   Bill Couture

Response:

Quickbooks v8 or Sage? For a Self employed/small business in computer consultancy/hardware supply. Approx 5 employees. Any preference to which is best. Or any major bugs in either of these. And which is better for expansion Clive

Response:

where are you based…….UK, US, France, etc how much do you want to spend……1K, 2K, 5K do you hold stock, do you want multiple supplier and customer price lists (maybe if you make your pc’s) do you want job costing (with journals to jobs to smooth income line) are you POS Regards Daniel Clark Ryba Macaulay Ltd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Quickbooks v8 or Sage? For a Self employed/small business in computer consultancy/hardware supply. Approx 5 employees. Any preference to which is best. Or any major bugs in either of these. And which is better for expansion Clive

Response:

Question:

I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul

Response:

Not before they release Train Simulator 2001 Professional, which includes the Japanese Bullet Train and French TGV. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul

Response:

on his bank bert Not before they release Train Simulator 2001 Professional, which includes the Japanese Bullet Train and French TGV.

I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul Thank you for your reply. Regards BERT WebEditor "World of Flightsimulator" http://www.fly.to/worldoffs

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Well, I guess there will be an Internet version of the game where you can be a virtual trainspotter, and collect the virtual loco numbers.  Sounds loads of fun to me … you must be real geek not to appreciate an evening of doing this!

in message I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software?

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…[snip]… I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software?

Whereas, with FS2000 you: take off fly land look out the window – see small blobs go by. If that’s worth $50 so it a train sim if that’s your thing. — Regards, Bob,

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Personally I think it’s a great idea…if it uses real world tracks and scenery especially. I’ll bet it sells well too… …[snip]… I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software?

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Response:

awesome! a train simulator. they’ve done it again. Very unique products they produce. I still love space simulator and imagine myself going on deep interstellar sabbaticals. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul

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I quote from MS…. Lifelike engineer’s control panels, scenery and weather; and accurate elevations and terrain data mirror real-world train travel. Player activities can include anything from keeping passenger time schedules while managing unforeseen barriers and negotiating freight through mountain passes in winter storms to navigating some of the world’s busiest commuter lines. "Microsoft Train Simulator" comes from the simulations group at Microsoft distinguished for developing the world’s best-selling PC-game software, "Microsoft Flight Simulator." Long synonymous with exacting standards of quality and realism, the simulations group at Microsoft is dedicated to providing both flight and rail fans with experiences that are "as real as it gets." Read all about it at: http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/press/2000/jul00/TrainPR.asp To a pilot (real or otherwise) the above might seem quite boring – but that’s precisely what most people (esp. wives) think of us bringing a 737 in on a dark & stormy night… Live & let live – Nick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – awesome! a train simulator. they’ve done it again. Very unique products they produce. I still love space simulator and imagine myself going on deep interstellar sabbaticals. I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul

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Joking aside now, what would be quite cool would be for Microsoft to merge all these different simulation environments into one single online virtual reality.  Thus when flying my Boeing 737 out of Heathrow I see some train simulators managing the dodgy signals at Clapham Junction and a bunch of Spitfires dogfighting over Biggin Hill.  As I climb to 30kft over the North Sea, I see some F18’s take off from their carrier to engage some target over Bosnia, etc.  In other words, when are the games manufacturers going to develop a single Open Standard for simulation which means that there is *one* on-line gaming room with all the virtual reality going on all around it?  ADSL should support the bandwidth required…  History might get a bit muddled – e.g. birth of the Roman Empire going on with a stealth fighter flying overhead – but what the hell, this is virtual reality! Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I quote from MS…. Lifelike engineer’s control panels, scenery and weather; and accurate elevations and terrain data mirror real-world train travel. Player activities can include anything from keeping passenger time schedules while managing unforeseen barriers and negotiating freight through mountain passes in winter storms to navigating some of the world’s busiest commuter lines. "Microsoft Train Simulator" comes from the simulations group at Microsoft distinguished for developing the world’s best-selling PC-game software, "Microsoft Flight Simulator." Long synonymous with exacting standards of quality and realism, the simulations group at Microsoft is dedicated to providing both flight and rail fans with experiences that are "as real as it gets." Read all about it at: http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/press/2000/jul00/TrainPR.asp To a pilot (real or otherwise) the above might seem quite boring – but that’s precisely what most people (esp. wives) think of us bringing a 737 in on a dark & stormy night… Live & let live – Nick awesome! a train simulator. they’ve done it again. Very unique products they produce. I still love space simulator and imagine myself going on deep interstellar sabbaticals. I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul

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…. and as you fly past towns you could even see accountants and bank managers slogging away in offices, on tiny little word and excel programs, as we head off to the coast (dodging 109’s and the mayhem & madness of the traffic below)    ;-)    …… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – all these different simulation environments into one single online virtual

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LOL LOL LOL!!!!! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I guess there will be an Internet version of the game where you can be a virtual trainspotter, and collect the virtual loco numbers.  Sounds loads of fun to me … you must be real geek not to appreciate an evening of doing this! in message I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software? —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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LOLOLOL!!! A fun thread for once! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. and as you fly past towns you could even see accountants and bank managers slogging away in offices, on tiny little word and excel programs, as we head off to the coast (dodging 109’s and the mayhem & madness of the traffic below)    ;-)    …… all these different simulation environments into one single online virtual

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To a pilot (real or otherwise) the above might seem quite boring – but that’s precisely what most people (esp. wives) think of us bringing a 737 in on a dark & stormy night… Live & let live – Nick

I know what you mean.  My wifes always taking the mickey when I’m flying. Actually it’s quite embaressing with her in the room. sbd

Response:

To the original question re MSTS:  I’ve heard 1st quarter 2001. There is another new trainsim Trainmaster 4.0 coming out by 9/1. For those who will never get to drive a real train, it’s the next best thing (and more complicated than you may appreciate).  Simulators are used to train real engineers, just like pilots.  Also riverboat pilots.  You have to love trains, of course, or the subject will seem as dry and boring as this email. New simulations might include our simulated selves watching our simulated selves playing simulation games ad infinitum. Hmm. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Personally I think it’s a great idea…if it uses real world tracks and scenery especially. I’ll bet it sells well too…

    While I’m not a "train nut", those that are will most likely run trains in the sim to mimic the operations of a real railroad. Now there are many types of railroads, eras, and specialization’s.  Try running two trains in opposite directions on a single track mainline with only one siding that isn’t long enough to hold either train via a CTC panel. Care to figure out how it’s done in real life ? Or what about trying to control the movements of a coal hauling railroad through the Appalachians to the Virginia Tide water area, while balancing the empty returning trains for more loads of coal.     My point is that just because we as flight simmers don’t understand the complexities of railroading, doesn’t mean that it’s boring or will be so to those that have an interest in the iron rails and it’s operations. Joel Willstein

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I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul

I’m actually looking forward to this.  I’ve always had a fascination with trains (as well as aircraft and most other forms of transport).  Perhaps we’ll have "virtual railroads" (CSX, Amtrak, etc.) just like the flightsim community has "virtual airlines". — Regards, Kurt Weber ROW Software and Web Design http://www.rowsw.com

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"Microsoft Flight Simulator." Long synonymous with exacting standards of quality and realism, the simulations group at Microsoft is dedicated to providing both flight and rail fans with experiences that are "as real as it gets."

LOL! ROTFL! ROTFLMAO! does anyone really believe that?

Response:

I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/).

Bah. I can just picture it. "Climb and maintain FL70" "Unable" "Turn left heading 050" "Unable" "Fer chrissake, DO something!!!" <Hooooooooooot Nah. Heh, I could probably waste a few hours fooling around with it though. Cheers,    /ft

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If train operation is so boring then why people keep building model railroads in their basements?  With a simulated rail network, there is no limit to imagination.  Now just imagine virtual train crashes  For that, I hope that Microserfs will be more creative than in early versions of MS Flight Simulator (cracked windshield).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally I think it’s a great idea…if it uses real world tracks and scenery especially. I’ll bet it sells well too…     While I’m not a "train nut", those that are will most likely run trains in the sim to mimic the operations of a real railroad. Now there are many types of railroads, eras, and specialization’s.  Try running two trains in opposite directions on a single track mainline with only one siding that isn’t long enough to hold either train via a CTC panel. Care to figure out how it’s done in real life ? Or what about trying to control the movements of a coal hauling railroad through the Appalachians to the Virginia Tide water area, while balancing the empty returning trains for more loads of coal.     My point is that just because we as flight simmers don’t understand the complexities of railroading, doesn’t mean that it’s boring or will be so to those that have an interest in the iron rails and it’s operations. Joel Willstein

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I cant wait to just blow the whistle or toot the horn or whatever you do to get the cows off the track.

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    My point is that just because we as flight simmers don’t understand the complexities of railroading, doesn’t mean that it’s boring or will be so to those that have an interest in the iron rails and it’s operations

exactly, im both, i’ve been flt simming for years but when i saw this coming man i can hardly wait.  i’ve been dabbling into a model railroad as a simulation not just "running train around in circles" but modelling a small part of a railroad, say an industrial area where there would be lots of switching. this program would let a small model railroader expand the operations. you could pretend then when the cars are put on a car float and carried off your physical layout then they could be "picked up" in the train sim and taken to final destination,.. now just before everyone says trains are boring, ask a pilot who flies heavies all day and all year, thats boring too for the most part, takeoff and landing is exciting. im waiting for the first VRR (virtual railroad)

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Joking aside now, what would be quite cool would be for Microsoft to merge all these different simulation environments into one single online virtual reality

yes, you got, but make one world for each era.  in other words, ok combine planes and trains, and even say a trucking sim, shipping sim.  etc. but yes, i agree its time we have one room to all join that would be ATC and CTC controlled.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …[snip]… I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software? Whereas, with FS2000 you: take off fly land look out the window – see small blobs go by. If that’s worth $50 so it a train sim if that’s your thing.

 You mean take off, engage autopilot,engage autoland,turn off computer  don’t you (grin). From discussions I get the feeling that most FS sim  pilots don’t fly their machines much, at least the commercial aircraft.  One might take the challenge of course by trying to fly a 707 or 727  with one of the Arrington-Probst panels before the days automated flight.  Jim

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Question:

THIS IS A SORT OF AD, But no for some big company, just a programmer with a great product. The product, bethBen Solutions Datamanager, runs on Win 95/98/NT systems.

Okay!  This is sort of an ad in response to your "ad" but not really …. I am interested in a "report generator" for a system I have developed. Please see "InterActive Cash Accounting for the Internet" at … Test Site: http://www.foxall.com/betatest – Web Utilities – Bookkeeping or at either of the following two URLs … Main WebSite:  http://www.foxall.com   Dedictated:  http://www.foxall.com/interbooks … for an overview of the system. The system produces an encoded – anonymous – data file that needs to be manipulated B4 client accountant can use (contact by Email for details) …. More importantly – the system would benefit from a ReptGen that could retrieve data from local disk & produce reports for printing/downloading over the Web.  Can your’s do that??  If so do you have a Unix/Linux version that will operate within a fully secure environment?? Thx Ric Foxall

Response:

THIS IS A SORT OF AD, But no for some big company, just a programmer with a great product. I write accounting software in a Unix environment. I got sick of the "report generator" system provided by the language developer. Since most of my clients use Windows on work stations and the system on Unix, I developed a very powerful, very fast, very easy to use Report Generator and Data Query system. The product, bethBen Solutions Datamanager, runs on Win 95/98/NT systems. It conncects to just about every accounting program and/or database in existance (with the exception of those that use basic binary files). Many natively, but the others through ODBC. It provides full visual design on query, multi-table access to data, drag and drop filtering, WYSIWYG Page Layout- allowing incorporation of graphs, pictures and data. It creates mailing labels and inventory labels from over 150 pre-defined formats. It is blinding fast and requires about 30 minutes to learn how to operate. It exports data to various formats and even creates encrypted Electronic Reports for distribution over e-mail or the internet. And best of all, I’m selling it for $75. If you are interested, contact me at or see the not so great but soon to be upgraded webpage at: http://home1.gte.net/bethben/bethben.htm (I write great software, but stink at web pages) Thanks, Regina and Dave

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Question:

   This flamewar has long since lost its relevance to alt.pagan, not to    mention alt.feminism.  And why did you leave over 100 lines of empty    space?                                                                 Doug

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semi-literate passionless droid who has spent too much time reading Ayn Rand, and not enough time considering what it means to be human. (semi) cordially, Rich Gibson

[... about 100 lines deleted...] : — :    Michael :    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

Two questions: Why are there 100 blank lines on the end of every one of this little $#&%’s posts? and Why is it appearing on the bottom of every other post in alt.pagan as if the poster had put it there? Is there some site out there that is doing this to ALL posts that pass through his site??? Note the little $#&% I refer to is not Rich Gibson, but rather Michael who seems to be the source of this little prank! Donal, SysAdmin of The Brewers’ Witch BBS — +1 713 272 7350  3 lines! (CIS) 76460,1443  (Anon UUCP) login: nuucp (SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruadair, B of The Stargate, K of Ansteorra (Snail) 8880 Bellaire B-2 #139, Houston, TX  77036 ***Public Access Unix–Multichat, Internet mail, Usenet news, Games & more***

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: The questions of how much of "cyberspace" should be public versus private : sector is a subtle one.  Sloganistic level approaches are unlikely to yield : much assistance. : Again, there are complex issues.  Should the internet be patterned on a model : similar to bookstores+public libraries?  Or just public libraries, or just : bookstores?  Something not very similar to either?  I find this a fascinating : question. I find these two thoughts to be very powerful.  How ’should’ we view the internet?  I have a friend on the net who partially understands my passion for the access and free speech issues, but doesn’t understand why I care so much.  To him the internet is an entertainment resource, not a basic forum of ideas. : This applies to more than just religion, as it turns out.  We are beset with : an economic and social structure fundamentalism, which is so certain that it : KNOWS the truth that it no longer cares much about facts. :         Zhahai I know that this is going to open me up, but there are some debates in which ‘facts’ are not particulary useful.  I want more people on the internet because I value the chance for human interaction, and differing views.  Some things just ‘feel’ right (again, I know this is vaque and imprecise), and external objective ‘facts’, while they can never be ignored, are not really part of the debate.  I think this may be true of most of the major ‘holy.wars’-they come down to individual human values, emotions, and feelings. Rich Gibson (I have removed alt.pagan and alt.feminism from the followup line-put them back in if you think its appropriate)

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:  Can you name me (major) library :  which grants access to _all_ its holdings to the strangers ? Libraries are not the same as the Internet…

 Well, that’s what I call the profound statement. Librarians have an accepted ethic that promotes access to the information under their care.  Net professionals don’t yet have such a general principal of universal access.  I would like one.

  This is good point. Note, that librarians’ ethic also includes   protection of valuable materials. So, do we let every   delphinoid to post stupid questions to unrelated newsgroups ?   Or do we let Argic to vandalise bandwidth ? —    Michael    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

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          WHAT IS CYBERSPACE AND HOW CAN WE FREE IT?

I want to point out some inaccuracies. access.  As the prices to connect to Cyberspace continues to rise by the privatization of the Net, more and more souls are pushed out of the New World.  

 This is not true. Prices to connect become lower, not higher  with privatisation and competetion among access providers.     Isn’t it time we realize that money, the power base of the powerholds, has become an electronic abstraction, one which should be deleted from the Global Brain for being an unworkable, cruel, and oppressive idea?  

 Excuse me, "unworkable" ?  Ideas of socialism were demonstrated to be  unworkable indeed. The very fact that you enjoy freedom of speech rather  than being taught by friendly Party Committee what to say and think  is due to exictance of market economy. natural resources. Cyberspace is one of our natural resources.

 Cyberspace is not natural; it was created by men. It is not resource,  because it is limited only by amount of labour that people redirected  for expanding the net. must understand that Cyberspace is not a privilege of those who can afford it, but it is a human right of everyone to have the full access, skill, and time to be able to use it.

  Inet is maintained by many workers. When you claim that access to   it is everybody ’s human right, you essentially declare that   those who invest their time and effort into Inet have no right   to be compensated for it. —    Michael    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

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            WHAT IS CYBERSPACE AND HOW CAN WE FREE IT?  I want to point out some inaccuracies.

   Gee, I thought this stuff was too ridiculous for serious criticism.    Excuse me, "unworkable" ?  Ideas of socialism were demonstrated to be   unworkable indeed. The very fact that you enjoy freedom of speech rather   than being taught by friendly Party Committee what to say and think   is due to exictance of market economy.

   Um, many western European nations as we speak are prospering with    economies that are to some degree socialist.  That includes France and    the Scandinavian nations.  And in none of those countries is freedom of    speech seriously curtailed.      Don’t make the mistake of equating socialism with    communism, much less totalitarianism.  And theoretically speaking,    there’s no inherent contradiction between a socialized economy and    freedom of speech.  Except, that is, in the minds of Red-Blooded    Americans (TM), who think that the American way is the only way.    –      Michael

                                                        Doug "Cela est bien dit, repondit Candide, mais il faut cultiver notre jardin."

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: :           WHAT IS CYBERSPACE AND HOW CAN WE FREE IT? : I want to point out some inaccuracies. : access.  As the prices to connect to Cyberspace continues to rise : by the privatization of the Net, more and more souls are pushed out : of the New World.   :  This is not true. Prices to connect become lower, not higher :  with privatisation and competetion among access providers. Michael, I think that the Doctress’s statement is true, and yours is wrong, within the context that she operated within.  Internet access prices are clearly much higher than they used to be to the typical user.  They used to be ‘free’, or at least buried within the general costs of government taxation and school tuition. (points on which I have no comment deleted) : natural resources. Cyberspace is one of our natural resources. :  Cyberspace is not natural; it was created by men. It is not resource, :  because it is limited only by amount of labour that people redirected :  for expanding the net. I lost you here!  Certainly Cyberspace is not a ‘natural’ resource, but it is certainly a resource! : must understand that Cyberspace is not a privilege of those who can : afford it, but it is a human right of everyone to have the full : access, skill, and time to be able to use it. :   Inet is maintained by many workers. When you claim that access to :   it is everybody ’s human right, you essentially declare that :   those who invest their time and effort into Inet have no right :   to be compensated for it. I think that the Doctress is extreme on this point, but with minor (very minor) modifications her position is identical to the Electronic Frontier Foundation-the idea of universal access is a very real issue.  The Doctress has not argued that the ‘people who invest their time and effort into Inet have no right to be compensated for it.’ The Internet was created largely due to government actions-both in direct form, and in that it is the results of technological evolutions from government, primarily military, spending.  In my mind that makes the future of the Internet the object of legitimate debate.  I agree with her (and also with every other authority on the subject whom I respect!) that it is important to work to avoid creating a world of information haves and have nots. Again, I consider the Doctress to be a bit extreme in her positions (to elevate something to a ‘right’ does seem to require a corresponding obligation on the part of someone else to satisfy that right…), but I have a lot of respect for her because of her efforts in trying to find a more humane way for people to live. Rich Gibson

Response:

Doctress N: I’d like to suggest a book for your consideration:   "Technologies of Freedom" by Ithiel de Sola Pool. Harvard University Press, 1983.  It was in print last I checked, tho I had to special order it. Pool is a very good thinker, and has a good grasp of facts.  I would like to see what you might produce as a hybrid of your current perspective, and what you might learn in that book.  I think you may find some of Pool’s views challenging, but in a productive way.  And it’s greatly more intelligent, informed, and insightful than some of the criticism you may have seen here on these newsgroups. Ok, sometimes its a bit dry.  Think of it as grounding (as us Pagans would put it, adding some North to the mixture).  Honest, it’s not terribly dry. If it lacks some lyricism, well that leaves more room for your own synthesis.    respectfully, Z

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: :  Getting patronising, aren’t we ? : You are correct.  I reacted to the words that I read, rather than to the : ideas you tried to communicate. : :  Can you name me (major) library : :  which grants access to _all_ its holdings to the strangers ? : Libraries are not the same as the Internet… : So the question is how we should consider the question of internet : access.  I do not consider it a basic human right, but it is not a : privilege either.   : Librarians have an accepted ethic that promotes access to the information : under their care.  Net professionals don’t yet have such a general : principal of universal access.  I would like one. : Do you have any thoughts on this? Actually, there is a basic difference between libraries and the internet that makes this an interesting debate:  The Internet resource is not limited to one-use-per-item since all the digital information can be copied and sent to everyone who wants it.  In practice this means that it doesn’t matter who has access, the material won’t be materially less available to anybody else (although there are some problems with the total system’s capacity to handly information). : : — : :    Michael : :    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

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access.  As the prices to connect to Cyberspace continues to rise by the privatization of the Net, more and more souls are pushed out of the New World.   This is not true. Prices to connect become lower, not higher with privatisation and competetion among access providers.

Quite true, and healthy, in 1994.  If prices do rise, it will likely be 4-5 years down the line.  The initial effect of this type of opening a market is almost always a drop in prices, until the "market shakes out". Sometimes prices rise again then, sometimes not.  Kinda early to tell.     Isn’t it time we realize that money, the power base of the powerholds, has become an electronic abstraction, one which should be deleted from the Global Brain for being an unworkable, cruel, and oppressive idea?   Excuse me, "unworkable" ?  Ideas of socialism were demonstrated to be unworkable indeed.

Oh?  I missed that.  Seems that we’ve seen that (1) unfettered free enterprise was found unworkable and globally abandoned (except a few backwaters) decades ago, replaced with a vigorous hybrid which all capitalist states have adopted, and (2) the totalitarian vanguard party Leninist model (wherein a Party which supposedly is wiser than the populace takes complete control of the State, skips from Feudalism to a Scientific Socialism, so called, bypassing the Caplitalist stage which Marx held neccessary, and rules "benevolently" on behalf of the masses), proved unable to compete with this capitalist hybrid. The latter global change took longer; free enterprise succumbed earlier.  We can all be glad that the Soviet style totalitarian perversion finally died. But was it Socialism?  Well, one form of it, yes – a form characterised by extreme centralization and domination by an elite.  That’s but one formulation of socialist ideas.  Was it Marxism?  Hardly; it differed on so many fundamental points that it could at best be considered conceptually derived (or distorted) from Marxism. The current world winner (acknowledging that only a few systems have yet had a serious chance to compete) is a hybrid of capitalist and socialist memes, which has proven more competitive than than any non-hybrid formulation to date. Head down to your socialist public library if you have any problems with this. <grin The very fact that you enjoy freedom of speech rather than being taught by friendly Party Committee what to say and think is due to exictance of market economy.

As if those were the only two alternatives in the world.  Sigh.  The correlation of market economies and free speech is not very clear, when you *seriously* study the world.  I’m still pondering Pool’s viewpoint, and I may yet believe that there is some positive correlation.  Do you care to offer some?  Please don’t waste time repeating the standard one dimensional propoganda from the mass media; insightful analysis with a broader perspective would be welcome, tho. Some clues: few of those who have been brainwashed by the Media are aware that socialist ideas come in many varieties, that the Soviet Union and it’s satelites were not Marxist, or that some of the more virulent totalitarian states of this century have been capitalist (alongside the Leninist ones). If this "complication" to the standard brainwashing seems to complex to grasp, one is unlikely to have much insight into the real dynamics behind the collapse of the USSR and subsequent events. The questions of how much of "cyberspace" should be public versus private sector is a subtle one.  Sloganistic level approaches are unlikely to yield much assistance. must understand that Cyberspace is not a privilege of those who can afford it, but it is a human right of everyone to have the full access, skill, and time to be able to use it.  Inet is maintained by many workers. When you claim that access to  it is everybody ’s human right, you essentially declare that  those who invest their time and effort into Inet have no right  to be compensated for it.

Yah, sure, and the same could be said about slavery, let along literacy or medical care or legal due process.  Sorry, that’s BS.  Medical workers the world over are compensated, even where adequate medical care is considered a human right.  (Americans are *supposed* to think that every socialized medical system in the world is crummy and resented by the residents who wish they were Americans and could partake of our relatively more free market medical system.  This would be funny if not so tragic.) Again, there are complex issues.  Should the internet be patterned on a model similar to bookstores+public libraries?  Or just public libraries, or just bookstores?  Something not very similar to either?  I find this a fascinating question. Except to discuss with those who already know the Truth.   Surround me with truth seekers,   Protect me from those who already KNOW it. This applies to more than just religion, as it turns out.  We are beset with an economic and social structure fundamentalism, which is so certain that it KNOWS the truth that it no longer cares much about facts.         Zhahai

Response:

Access does not become free because it’s cost is hidden.

First, I think the average cost of providing internet access is currently moving down as the market enters a (temporary) hypercompetitive space, just as US airline prices initially plumetted after deregulation.  I have some hope that they may permanently stay reasonable (this may be one of the good sides of a market, of which there are many). BUT – her point was the cost to a user for access, in particular as regards how close to universally affordable it is.  In that regard, she may have some point (I don’t truly have statistics).  Yes, if the costs to the average user were lower, it was because of subsidization, not because the technology or economics were cheaper. Both are legitimate concerns: what it costs a user to get on the Internet (or related derivative), and what it costs in total to provide that service.  There are failure modes in either direction.  You just don’t get it. DN tries to expand "human rights" to include  Inet connection. But, unlike political freedoms usually denoted  by "human rights", connection is not luck of certain restriction ;

Um, methinks you are confusing "civil rights" with "human rights".  Have you ever actually read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted by the UN and many nations?  Or other transnational formulations of human rights? Your statement would make it appear not.  Please inform yourself better before you opine on what is usually denoted by "human rights"; you have erred. This does not mean that the Doctress is correct that access to Cyberspace should be human right; that’s still up for discussion.  But at least let us be intelligent enough to see that she didn’t say "civil right", but "human right", and respond appropriately. You are not the first one to be mislead by rhetoric of her likes. It is not humanism which is behind the pleas to get something for free – it is jealousy and laziness.

This arrogance, of "knowing" what is behind the Doctress’ rhetoric, of claiming to know her heart and mind, is no different in quality than are the Christians who say that all Pagans are really Satanists whether they realize it or not. Because their binary model of the universe says so.  Your own binary conceptualization is showing, along with a sad lack of empathy or balance. Not only is the Doctress, in your universe, motivated by jealousy and laziness, those who even partially agree with her in a qualified way have been "misled"; we others, who have read the same words as you did, are too naive to figure this out for ourselves.  You probably don’t even realize what you are saying (to give you the benefit of the doubt). Recently, this was conceptualized as "everybody who disagrees with the right wing is either (1) a conscious agent of Soviet disinformation, or (2) a dupe, or useful idiot, misled by #1".  I’ve seen this many times. If you are a free thinker, rather than a "useful idiot" regurgitating a party line (and I hope you are; I don’t want to insult you and will apologize if I have misunderstood you), then please surprise me by responding with OTHER than the canned responses that I hear from conservative party hacks, again and again.  Show that you understand what I’ve said, and if you disagree, it is with knowledge and deep understanding.  Something a bit more intelligent than trying to decide whether I’m a disinformation agent or a dupe, for example.     Z – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —   Michael   Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

Response:

  Um, many western European nations as we speak are prospering with   economies that are to some degree socialist.  That includes France and   the Scandinavian nations.  And in none of those countries is freedom of   speech seriously curtailed.   Note "to some degree". Snake poison is being used as medicine, too; will you argue that it’s not poison because of such use ?

Um, the US is to some degree socialist too.  It’s also to some degree a democracy, and to some degree a plutocracy.  It’s a hybrid.  Do you have any reason to sift out the hybrid conceptual ancestry and declare which portions of it are "poison" and which are "good healthy tissue", other than ideology? Freedom of speech is also curtailed in the US.  Not nearly as much as it was in various European and Latin American Fascist countries (non-socialist by a long shot).  Not as much as in free-enterprise Singapore (try being critical of the powers that be there).  Not as much as in the former Soviet Bloc.  In some ways more and in some ways less than in Europe, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia (all being more socialistic).  To look at all these examples and believe that the degree of market economy, or of socialism, is the correlate is rather untenable.  Totalitarians, left or right, infringe free speech. Civil libertarians, left or right, enhance it.  The market economy has at most a small correlation, and I’m not sure if it’s positive or negative, considered globally. As for freedom of speech not being "seriously curtailed", I take it as the acknowledgement that it is curtailed, albeit not seriously (perhaps it’s curtailed to the same small degree, to which their economies are socialist ?)

OK, take that as a hypothesis.  Try to find a single fact which would support it.  So far, you have presented only prejudices, speculations based on how you think the world ought to work.  If you can get more serious, I’m always open to rational discussion.  You do not appear to be well informed about these matters, but that could be a mistaken impression, and I’d be glad to see that my tentative impressions are wrong.   Don’t make the mistake of equating socialism with   communism, I don’t. I know very well which one is which. For ex., Soviet Union was socialistic, the land or "red khmers" was communistic.

Whew.  Where did you read THAT?  Thanks for setting us straight about the depth and accuracy of your understanding (even tho you obviously don’t realize what you have really demonstrated). Socialism is inherently anti – individualist and therefore totalitarian.

Do you mean "any socialist influence" or "pure unadulterated extremist socialism"?  (Too much salt will kill you; doesn’t mean salt is poison). Has the interesting American institution of free public libraries (Ben’s trip) made the use "a touch more totalitarian – just proportionate to the influence of said libraries"?  Or vice versa? Just to give you a hint: centralized control without effective democratic feedback tends to lead to totalitarianism, whether or not there is a market economy underneath this overburden.  Effective democratic control tends to lead to freer systems, whether the economy is mixed private/government or not.  There *is* an axis which correlates well; market versus socialist influences isn’t it. Nor does American political group-think impress many people with it’s great individualism.  It’s like the old Dr. Pepper ads: Independent free thinkers agree, 10:1, that our product is sexy and shows your individualism, so you should think so too".  <grin   Brainwashed is as brainwashed does. Markets sometimes enhance freedom, sometimes inhibit it (except for those with the $$$).  There is a legitimate question of where cyberspace should be best positioned to achieve maximum freedom, communication, and service to the funny monkeys who inhabit it.  Simple "markets are always best" proposals need more than dogmatic certainty as evidence.     Z

Response:

:  Getting patronising, aren’t we ? You are correct.  I reacted to the words that I read, rather than to the ideas you tried to communicate. :  Can you name me (major) library :  which grants access to _all_ its holdings to the strangers ? Libraries are not the same as the Internet… So the question is how we should consider the question of internet access.  I do not consider it a basic human right, but it is not a privilege either.   Librarians have an accepted ethic that promotes access to the information under their care.  Net professionals don’t yet have such a general principal of universal access.  I would like one. Do you have any thoughts on this? : — :    Michael :    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

Response:

Yes, I do think long-distance phone calls should be free.  Have you ever had a lover on the other side of the world and you couldn’t afford to call her/him?  You will soon find out that money and the people who control the phone companies have created a tyranny.  Communication technologies should be free because we need to send more love letters if we want to have peace. This is downright silly.  NOTHING is free.  If you don’t pay directly, you’ll pay some other way.  How do you propose to make long-distance calling free, and still maintain any kind of quality?  What do you think drove the development of communications in the first place?  It wasn’t some altruistic vision of lovers chatting on the phone.

        "Free" is silly, true. But some (notably Arthur C. Clarke) have argued for years that the phone companies should and could move to a flat-rate structure, where you pay a standard monthly fee for phone service, and can use the phone as much as you like, to call whomever you like, for no additional charge. The long distance rates have been used for decades to subsidize the costs of local calling, and the rates are thus inflated. I’m no expert, but I wouldn’t be surprised if such a rate structure could offer consumers attractively priced phone service at a rate that still makes profits for the companies.                                                 Kayembee

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : access.  As the prices to connect to Cyberspace continues to rise : : by the privatization of the Net, more and more souls are pushed out : : of the New World.   : : :  This is not true. Prices to connect become lower, not higher : :  with privatisation and competetion among access providers. : : I think that the Doctress’s statement is true, and yours is wrong, within : the context that she operated within.  Internet access prices are clearly : much higher than they used to be to the typical user.  They used to be : ‘free’, or at least buried within the general costs of government : taxation and school tuition. :  Access does not become free because it’s cost is hidden. What does this quote about access not being free mean?  Did I argue that access was ‘free’?  You deleted my point that addressed your concern about actual costs.  

 Well, I was talking about price, in fact. :  Second, university did not stop give free accounts to :  the students and stuff. Third, "typical user" begin to include those who :  can afford paying for an account- to call this "rise of cost for typical :  user" is outright misleading. Please avoid cheating in your arguments. Oh come on Michael.  This is bullshit.  At least when I disagree with the Doctress she gives me the pleasure of eloquence.  

"Pleasure of eloquence" ? You’re going to outdo me, as I find my pleasures  elsewhere. There was no mention made of cost in the original post(s).  The PRICE of access for the TYPICAL user has increased.  Of course it has.  Don’t accuse me of ‘cheating’ in my arguments.

 Yes, the average price one pays directly for access increased. No, it was  not due to closing original, free channels for obtaining access; it  was due to emergence of not free channels. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -: : must understand that Cyberspace is not a privilege of those who can : : afford it, but it is a human right of everyone to have the full : : access, skill, and time to be able to use it. : : :   Inet is maintained by many workers. When you claim that access to : :   it is everybody ’s human right, you essentially declare that : :   those who invest their time and effort into Inet have no right : :   to be compensated for it. : : I think that the Doctress is extreme on this point, but with minor (very : minor) modifications her position is identical to the Electronic Frontier : Foundation-the idea of universal access is a very real issue.  The : Doctress has not argued that the ‘people who invest their time and effort : into Inet have no right to be compensated for it.’ :   You just don’t get it. DN tries to expand "human rights" to include :   Inet connection. But, unlike political freedoms usually denoted :   by "human rights", connection is not luck of certain restriction ; :   it is access to results of somebody’s labour. Next step will be :   declaration that making long-distance phone calls is "human right" :   and should be given everybody for free. What about shopping ? :   Isn’t it "human right", which should not be restricted by ability to :   pay, too ? Oh grow up Michael.  

 Getting patronising, aren’t we ? Address the issue, not a bs straw man.  How do you feel about public access to libraries?  

 Can you name me (major) library  which grants access to _all_ its holdings to the strangers ? You don’t have to like it, on libertarian or other grounds, but that is the level of access that we are debating.

–    Michael    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

Response:

<snip   Don’t make the mistake of equating socialism with   communism, I don’t. I know very well which one is which. For ex., Soviet Union was socialistic, the land or "red khmers" was communistic. much less totalitarianism. Socialism is inherently anti – individualist and therefore totalitarian.

<snip BZZZTT! Thank you for playing. What do we have here, another libertarian apologist for exploitation and greedheads? (And to any other folks here who actually care, I take the above to indicate another "mind made up, don’t confuse me with facts".)         mark

Response:

   Note "to some degree". Snake poison is being used as medicine, too;   will you argue that it’s not poison because of such use ?   As for freedom of speech not being "seriously curtailed", I take it   as the acknowledgement that it is curtailed, albeit not seriously (perhaps   it’s curtailed to the same small degree, to which their economies are   socialist ?)

   No, in fact I don’t see a direct correlation.  I’m not an expert on    European politics, so excuse me for pulling names out of the air.    But if you say that Norway is "more socialist" than Sweden, say,    it’d be a pretty big stretch to say that Norway is also more free-    speech curtailed.  It would also probably be wrong to say that either    of those countries limits free speech more than the USA.  Both    liberals and conservatives, BTW, can make quite valid claims that    their free speech is being curtailed in this country even as we speak.    Socialism is inherently anti – individualist and therefore totalitarian.

   I can (and have, for a piece of fiction I wrote) easily imagine a    society that operates with a socialist economy precisely because    they value every individual and want to give each individual the full    opportunity to express their unique qualities and contribute to society    the best way they can.  This is pretty idealistic, but possible, I    think.  Freedom from the need to "make money" to support oneself,    freedom from restrictions on achievement caused not by personal    shortcomings but imposed by the social and economic class in which    you find yourself.  That’s socialist, but hardly anti-individualist. <    I am not red-blooded (or some-other-colour-blooded) American.   What’s you point ?

   My apologies for implying you’re American, if you’re not.  My point    was that many people here see the system under which this country    operates right now as the only possible way to do things, and are    categorically opposed to changes or evolution.                                                                 Doug "Cela est bien dit, repondit Candide, mais il faut cultiver notre jardin."    –       Michael       Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

Response:

   Note "to some degree". Snake poison is being used as medicine, too;   will you argue that it’s not poison because of such use ?   As for freedom of speech not being "seriously curtailed", I take it   as the acknowledgement that it is curtailed, albeit not seriously (perhaps   it’s curtailed to the same small degree, to which their economies are   socialist ?)   No, in fact I don’t see a direct correlation.  I’m not an expert on   European politics, so excuse me for pulling names out of the air.   But if you say that Norway is "more socialist" than Sweden, say,

 I have heard precisely opposite: Norway is the most liberal Europian  nation. (I am not the expert in politics, either)   it’d be a pretty big stretch to say that Norway is also more free-   speech curtailed.  It would also probably be wrong to say that either   of those countries limits free speech more than the USA.

 Does France have constitutional protection of free speech ? (rhetorical  question)    Socialism is inherently anti – individualist and therefore totalitarian.   I can (and have, for a piece of fiction I wrote) easily imagine a   society that operates with a socialist economy precisely because   they value every individual and want to give each individual the full   opportunity to express their unique qualities and contribute to society   the best way they can.  This is pretty idealistic, but possible, I   think.  

 That’s pointless, unless you suggest way to implement this. All  that were suggested before, From Fourier and Campanella to Lenin  and Trotsky were totalitarian (check it, if you don’t believe me; read  the stuff) Freedom from the need to "make money" to support oneself,

 Freedom not to help other people and expect them to give you results  of their labour ?   freedom from restrictions on achievement caused not by personal   shortcomings but imposed by the social and economic class in which   you find yourself.  That’s socialist, but hardly anti-individualist.

 The last bit is something i agree with <    I am not red-blooded (or some-other-colour-blooded) American.   What’s you point ?   My apologies for implying you’re American, if you’re not.

 Be careful going around offending people My point   was that many people here see the system under which this country   operates right now as the only possible way to do things, and are   categorically opposed to changes or evolution.

 That’s nonsense, of course. —    Michael    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

Response:

: : : access.  As the prices to connect to Cyberspace continues to rise : : by the privatization of the Net, more and more souls are pushed out : : of the New World.   : : :  This is not true. Prices to connect become lower, not higher : :  with privatisation and competetion among access providers. : : I think that the Doctress’s statement is true, and yours is wrong, within : the context that she operated within.  Internet access prices are clearly : much higher than they used to be to the typical user.  They used to be : ‘free’, or at least buried within the general costs of government : taxation and school tuition. :  Access does not become free because it’s cost is hidden. Michael, I’m not sure if you are attempting to be unpleasent or not-much of your language seems overtly confrontational for no other reason than to be confrontational.  If that is the case, then piss off.  On the other hand, if you are interested in reasoned discussion than hail fellow well met. What does this quote about access not being free mean?  Did I argue that access was ‘free’?  You deleted my point that addressed your concern about actual costs.    :  Second, university did not stop give free accounts to :  the students and stuff. Third, "typical user" begin to include those who :  can afford paying for an account- to call this "rise of cost for typical :  user" is outright misleading. Please avoid cheating in your arguments. Oh come on Michael.  This is bullshit.  At least when I disagree with the Doctress she gives me the pleasure of eloquence.  There was no mention made of cost in the original post(s).  The PRICE of access for the TYPICAL user has increased.  Of course it has.  Don’t accuse me of ‘cheating’ in my arguments. : : must understand that Cyberspace is not a privilege of those who can : : afford it, but it is a human right of everyone to have the full : : access, skill, and time to be able to use it. : : :   Inet is maintained by many workers. When you claim that access to : :   it is everybody ’s human right, you essentially declare that : :   those who invest their time and effort into Inet have no right : :   to be compensated for it. : : I think that the Doctress is extreme on this point, but with minor (very : minor) modifications her position is identical to the Electronic Frontier : Foundation-the idea of universal access is a very real issue.  The : Doctress has not argued that the ‘people who invest their time and effort : into Inet have no right to be compensated for it.’ :   You just don’t get it. DN tries to expand "human rights" to include :   Inet connection. But, unlike political freedoms usually denoted :   by "human rights", connection is not luck of certain restriction ; :   it is access to results of somebody’s labour. Next step will be :   declaration that making long-distance phone calls is "human right" :   and should be given everybody for free. What about shopping ? :   Isn’t it "human right", which should not be restricted by ability to :   pay, too ? Oh grow up Michael.  Address the issue, not a bs straw man.  How do you feel about public access to libraries?  You don’t have to like it, on libertarian or other grounds, but that is the level of access that we are debating. : Again, I consider the Doctress to be a bit extreme in her positions (to : elevate something to a ‘right’ does seem to require a corresponding : obligation on the part of someone else to satisfy that right…) :   Precisely. Legitimate "human rights" merely require luck of intervention :   while person is exercising it. :   : , but I : have a lot of respect for her because of her efforts in trying to find a : more humane way for people to live. :  You are not the first one to be mislead by rhetoric of her likes. It :  is not humanism which is behind the pleas to get something for free – :  it is jealousy and laziness. Oh gosh great god Michael, tell me about being mislead.  Oh I wish I was as smart as you are, then I would not waste time trying to understand and relate to another human being. The irony is that I probably come much closer to agreeing with you on most basic issues than I do with the Doctress, but you come across as a semi-literate passionless droid who has spent too much time reading Ayn Rand, and not enough time considering what it means to be human. (semi) cordially, Rich Gibson : — :    Michael :    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

Response:

:  Access does not become free because it’s cost is hidden. :  Second, university did not stop give free accounts to :  the students and stuff. Third, "typical user" begin to include those who :  can afford paying for an account- to call this "rise of cost for typical :  user" is outright misleading. Please avoid cheating in your arguments. The point is that what we need is a major change in our social behaviour.  Everyone should be able to develop a skill and talent regardless of their intelligence.  In the Neutopian Ecocity, the computer is the center of life.  If we want to evolved beyond war, everyone needs to become computer literate.  Human rights are necessary for all survival.  We must end war on this planet and in order to do it we must allow everyone access.  The arcologies will be run by solar energy which is the way we will have the resources to build a new leisure based global community. : : must understand that Cyberspace is not a privilege of those who can : : afford it, but it is a human right of everyone to have the full : : access, skill, and time to be able to use it. : : :   Inet is maintained by many workers. When you claim that access to : :   it is everybody ’s human right, you essentially declare that : :   those who invest their time and effort into Inet have no right : :   to be compensated for it. : : I think that the Doctress is extreme on this point, but with minor (very : minor) modifications her position is identical to the Electronic Frontier : Foundation-the idea of universal access is a very real issue.  The : Doctress has not argued that the ‘people who invest their time and effort : into Inet have no right to be compensated for it.’ My function in this world is to be a poetess. Most of the time, poetess do not make money.  The money system is unfair to poetess because it doesn’t acknowledge their worth. :   You just don’t get it. DN tries to expand "human rights" to include :   Inet connection. But, unlike political freedoms usually denoted :   by "human rights", connection is not luck of certain restriction ; :   it is access to results of somebody’s labour. Next step will be :   declaration that making long-distance phone calls is "human right" :   and should be given everybody for free. What about shopping ? :   Isn’t it "human right", which should not be restricted by ability to :   pay, too ? Yes, I do think long-distance phone calls should be free.  Have you ever had a lover on the other side of the world and you couldn’t afford to call her/him?  You will soon find out that money and the people who control the phone companies have created a tyranny.  Communication technologies should be free because we need to send more love letters if we want to have peace. : Again, I consider the Doctress to be a bit extreme in her positions (to : elevate something to a ‘right’ does seem to require a corresponding : obligation on the part of someone else to satisfy that right…) :   Precisely. Legitimate "human rights" merely require luck of intervention :   while person is exercising it. :   : , but I : have a lot of respect for her because of her efforts in trying to find a : more humane way for people to live. As a Neutopia thinker that is my task, "to find a more humane way for people to live." :  You are not the first one to be mislead by rhetoric of her likes. It :  is not humanism which is behind the pleas to get something for free – :  it is jealousy and laziness. This system is unfair.  There are not even creative and meaningful jobs to go around.  And the Establishment is getting rich on you communications with each other.  Every day I contemplate a way out of the mess….every day as long as we are trapped in dystopia I will be seeking a cure.                                          Sincerely yours,                                          Doctress Neutopia : — :    Michael :    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

Response:

: access.  As the prices to connect to Cyberspace continues to rise : by the privatization of the Net, more and more souls are pushed out : of the New World.   :  This is not true. Prices to connect become lower, not higher :  with privatisation and competetion among access providers. I think that the Doctress’s statement is true, and yours is wrong, within the context that she operated within.  Internet access prices are clearly much higher than they used to be to the typical user.  They used to be ‘free’, or at least buried within the general costs of government taxation and school tuition.

 Access does not become free because it’s cost is hidden.  Second, university did not stop give free accounts to  the students and stuff. Third, "typical user" begin to include those who  can afford paying for an account- to call this "rise of cost for typical  user" is outright misleading. Please avoid cheating in your arguments. : must understand that Cyberspace is not a privilege of those who can : afford it, but it is a human right of everyone to have the full : access, skill, and time to be able to use it. :   Inet is maintained by many workers. When you claim that access to :   it is everybody ’s human right, you essentially declare that :   those who invest their time and effort into Inet have no right :   to be compensated for it. I think that the Doctress is extreme on this point, but with minor (very minor) modifications her position is identical to the Electronic Frontier Foundation-the idea of universal access is a very real issue.  The Doctress has not argued that the ‘people who invest their time and effort into Inet have no right to be compensated for it.’

  You just don’t get it. DN tries to expand "human rights" to include   Inet connection. But, unlike political freedoms usually denoted   by "human rights", connection is not luck of certain restriction ;   it is access to results of somebody’s labour. Next step will be   declaration that making long-distance phone calls is "human right"   and should be given everybody for free. What about shopping ?   Isn’t it "human right", which should not be restricted by ability to   pay, too ? Again, I consider the Doctress to be a bit extreme in her positions (to elevate something to a ‘right’ does seem to require a corresponding obligation on the part of someone else to satisfy that right…)

  Precisely. Legitimate "human rights" merely require luck of intervention   while person is exercising it. , but I have a lot of respect for her because of her efforts in trying to find a more humane way for people to live.

 You are not the first one to be mislead by rhetoric of her likes. It  is not humanism which is behind the pleas to get something for free –  it is jealousy and laziness. —    Michael    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

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  Um, many western European nations as we speak are prospering with   economies that are to some degree socialist.  That includes France and   the Scandinavian nations.  And in none of those countries is freedom of   speech seriously curtailed.   Note "to some degree". Snake poison is being used as medicine, too; will you argue that it’s not poison because of such use ? As for freedom of speech not being "seriously curtailed", I take it as the acknowledgement that it is curtailed, albeit not seriously (perhaps it’s curtailed to the same small degree, to which their economies are socialist ?)

But we live in a free market economy and free speech is curtailed here. The idea that free speech is something that exists in one and not in the other, and in varying degrees in all other countries, and that all countries have either type A, B or C systems is all poppycock. Laura

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[other attributions were lost] [...] : : I think that the Doctress is extreme on this point, but with minor (very : minor) modifications her position is identical to the Electronic Frontier : Foundation-the idea of universal access is a very real issue.  The : Doctress has not argued that the ‘people who invest their time and effort : into Inet have no right to be compensated for it.’ My function in this world is to be a poetess. Most of the time, poetess do not make money.  The money system is unfair to poetess because it doesn’t acknowledge their worth.

Why "poetess"?  Is "poet" gender-specific? I think you make a fundamental error in this argument.  The "money system" *does* acknowledge the monetary worth of poetry; the reality is that it’s low.  The mistake you make is to equate monetary worth with intrinsic worth.  If you want to make money, you generally have to learn a skill that society will recompense.  If you want to write poetry, you have to accept that not many people will want to pay you for it. Railing against society for not liking poetry enough to pay for it won’t get you very far. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -:   You just don’t get it. DN tries to expand "human rights" to include :   Inet connection. But, unlike political freedoms usually denoted :   by "human rights", connection is not luck of certain restriction ; :   it is access to results of somebody’s labour. Next step will be :   declaration that making long-distance phone calls is "human right" :   and should be given everybody for free. What about shopping ? :   Isn’t it "human right", which should not be restricted by ability to :   pay, too ? Yes, I do think long-distance phone calls should be free.  Have you ever had a lover on the other side of the world and you couldn’t afford to call her/him?  You will soon find out that money and the people who control the phone companies have created a tyranny.  Communication technologies should be free because we need to send more love letters if we want to have peace.

This is downright silly.  NOTHING is free.  If you don’t pay directly, you’ll pay some other way.  How do you propose to make long-distance calling free, and still maintain any kind of quality?  What do you think drove the development of communications in the first place?  It wasn’t some altruistic vision of lovers chatting on the phone. [...] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -:  You are not the first one to be mislead by rhetoric of her likes. It :  is not humanism which is behind the pleas to get something for free – :  it is jealousy and laziness. This system is unfair.  There are not even creative and meaningful jobs to go around.  And the Establishment is getting rich on you communications with each other.  Every day I contemplate a way out of the mess….every day as long as we are trapped in dystopia I will be seeking a cure.                                         Sincerely yours,                                         Doctress Neutopia : — :    Michael

Do you think you’ll be able to design a system that *is* fair?  So what if someone is getting rich off your communications?  Will it be better when poets get rich off our need for poetry?  It seems that you want all the perks of high technology and none of the costs. Susan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –             WHAT IS CYBERSPACE AND HOW CAN WE FREE IT?  I want to point out some inaccuracies.   Gee, I thought this stuff was too ridiculous for serious criticism.    Excuse me, "unworkable" ?  Ideas of socialism were demonstrated to be   unworkable indeed. The very fact that you enjoy freedom of speech rather   than being taught by friendly Party Committee what to say and think   is due to exictance of market economy.   Um, many western European nations as we speak are prospering with   economies that are to some degree socialist.  That includes France and   the Scandinavian nations.  And in none of those countries is freedom of   speech seriously curtailed.  

 Note "to some degree". Snake poison is being used as medicine, too;  will you argue that it’s not poison because of such use ?  As for freedom of speech not being "seriously curtailed", I take it  as the acknowledgement that it is curtailed, albeit not seriously (perhaps  it’s curtailed to the same small degree, to which their economies are  socialist ?)   Don’t make the mistake of equating socialism with   communism,

 I don’t. I know very well which one is which. For ex., Soviet Union  was socialistic, the land or "red khmers" was communistic. much less totalitarianism.

 Socialism is inherently anti – individualist and therefore totalitarian.   And theoretically speaking,   there’s no inherent contradiction between a socialized economy and   freedom of speech.  Except, that is, in the minds of Red-Blooded   Americans (TM), who think that the American way is the only way.

 I am not red-blooded (or some-other-colour-blooded) American.  What’s you point ? —    Michael    Squicking – because mind is terrible thing to waste

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           WHAT IS CYBERSPACE AND HOW CAN WE FREE IT?      At first glance, entering into Cyberspace is like entering into a new frontier.  The blank screen is like the vacuum of Outerspace or in the beginning there was nothingness and then came the Word.  The best way I can describe this space is to say that it is our collective unconsciousness becoming consciousness as we search for meaning, striving to understand the reason for our existence and the Cosmic Order of life.  I have heard it called the Underworld and the Afterlife. Cyberspace is the place of the All- Knowing I/Eye, a place which records our written thoughts and actions.        There is something dead about the word.  After it is written, like a photograph, it is there as a reflection of a past thought, there to remind us of a moment in time when the inspiration possessed the writer.  Nevertheless, like the Goddesses and Gods of the Underworld and the Afterlife, the word is alive in Cyberspace being shot instantaneous through communication satellites around the world, the bytes ending up after their planetary travel back in my mbox.      The basic principles about Cyberspace are that there are no national borders, no money, or mothers tying one down to social customs. Instead, there is vast internal mystery to Cyberspace, a place where the unfolding of the innerspace of the soul is visually seen.  In Cyberspace, the world is an idea.  For Idealist, it is the place where Ecocites can finally be built on Earth and the garden of love cultivated.  With the use of email, we have awoke to an age of the global gene pool.        There is a flow to Cyberspace.  It is the Ocean, the Great Universal Sea which makes Planet Earth into a blue orb of life in Outerspace. Writer Howard Rheingold in his book _Virtual Communities_ has called Cyberspace the agar medium in a petri dish. He says that no one planned the colonies of microorganisms now growing in the agar medium, nevertheless, it is happening.  But maybe it is not just a matter of chance that virtual communities began to grow. Couldn’t Cyberspace be far more intelligent that we think?  Could it is the medium of life itself, a divine idea, the evolutionary water inside our brain?  Could Cyberspace be Gaia, the microbial Superorganism which recycles all of our wastes and regulates life on Earth?      In Cyberspace, we are the ones who give each other meaning. Nothing else but our interconnectiveness and our re-affirmation of who we are creates the support systems that we need in order to inspire us to even greater efforts.  We are here to uplift each others spirits, to bind us into a world community of lovers of life who have the wisdom to live in peace with each other and with the universe.      But like the Great Seas of the Earth, the ocean of Cyberspace has been polluted with the garbage of civilization.  The war against life dominates most of the channels of communication.  The old networks of Western Thought have seeped into all the virginal streams of hope, so that now the visionaries have been marginalized, hanging on by mere charity to maintain their limited access.  As the prices to connect to Cyberspace continues to rise by the privatization of the Net, more and more souls are pushed out of the New World.  The Old World is corrupting the New World which has the potential to liberated the dreams of the water inside the Global Brain.        Again, the New World has been colonized by the manufacturers who push greed, private interest, the profit motive, pornography, and war.  Rheingold asked, "Which scenario seems more conductive to democracy, which to totalitarian rule:  a world in which a few people control communications technology that can be used to manipulate the beliefs of billions, or a world in which every citizen can broadcast to every other citizen? (14)."      Isn’t it time we realize that money, the power base of the powerholds, has become an electronic abstraction, one which should be deleted from the Global Brain for being an unworkable, cruel, and oppressive idea?  Isn’t it time to start a new accounting system, one in which what counts is one’s personal integrity and their contribution to the human species?  Isn’t it time we rearrange the accounting system so that everyone’s basic needs are met and their dreams of a just world actualized?      Capitalists have said to me that there is no free lunch in America.  If I want freedom of speech then I will have to buy it. In other words, if I don’t have the capital to buy Net time, then I don’t deserve freedom of speech.  However, this is the double- speak which George Orwell in _1984_ was talking about:  freedom equal slavery.  All those with money are free while the people who can’t afford to broadcast there ideas over the communication technologies are their slaves.  Those with the big money rule which is what the plutocrats have been doing for centuries while they wallow in the luxury produced by the exploited labor of their economic slaves.      Now with the miracle of Cyberspace, we can see our problems of consciousness.  We still see people who are sick with the thought of self-interested, censorship, and the private ownership of the natural resources. Cyberspace is one of our natural resources. We must understand that Cyberspace is not a privilege of those who can afford it, but it is a human right of everyone to have the full access, skill, and time to be able to use it.  Rheingold writes, "We need a clear citizens’ vision of the way of the Net ought to grow, a firm idea of the kind of media environment we would like to see in the future.  If we do not develop such a vision for ourselves, the future will be shaped for us by large commercial and political powerholders (6)."        There can not be a world democracy without a global open forum which gives decentralized empowerment to all people to express their ideas and enter into the important dialogues of the times. Thanks to the computer wizards who developed this magnificent technology, we now have the means to carried out the vision of creating a spiritual democracy, a worldwide information lovolution. I use the word lovolution here instead of revolution because as some wise person pointed out me in an email, the next revolution is being fought in Cyberspace not with guns and bombs, but with words and ideas.  The liberating idea is that everyone has a right to enter into the New World.  This my friends, is a vision of universal love.  For the vision to be manifested means that we need to create a leisure based economy where everyone has the free time and education necessary to become informed about the issues being discussed in the Gaia Forums.      The idea of creating a global democracy has been called a new religion.  In my dissertation GAIA, THE PLANETARY RELIGION, THE SACRED MARRIAGE OF ART AND SCIENCE, I have articulated a way in which the social architecture of a world democracy might work. We now have an ideology of true love to save us, if only the world will listen.  Only if feminist thought and Neutopia would be taken seriously with the highest spiritual respect will we have a chance to emancipate Cyberspace. Then we will finally understand the way true leadership works to use our advanced technologies to create paradise for all on Spaceship Earth.                                            Doctress Neutopia a public copy of the dissertation can be gotten at ftp site: bertha.pyramid.com /pub/leri/Neutopia

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