Question:

The reason for the low rating is likely the center pin strength.  You can have massive pulleys and frame, but if the point they turn on is weak, that limits the load rating. I sure wouldn’t use that setup you have with anything except my 1.5 ton hand winch.  Certainly not with my Warn 9000i winch. Mike

You are missing the point – in the Uk the ratings for pulling and lifting in the industrial sense are huge – ther is a massive safety factor for anything to do with lifting. The pin on this bugger is about 1.5" solid alloy steel.

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No. You get two wires of 8000lbs each. Only the tree-strap, coming from that snatch-block, must cope with 16000lbs. — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink

I was not on about a simple double line.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reason for the low rating is likely the center pin strength.  You can have massive pulleys and frame, but if the point they turn on is weak, that limits the load rating. I sure wouldn’t use that setup you have with anything except my 1.5 ton hand winch.  Certainly not with my Warn 9000i winch. Mike You are missing the point – in the Uk the ratings for pulling and lifting in the industrial sense are huge – ther is a massive safety factor for anything to do with lifting. The pin on this bugger is about 1.5" solid alloy steel.

Or is the pin 1.5" of soft regular grade steel? Is the end of the pin marked with the grade on it? My 1.5 ton hand winch has a pin that is 1/4" only of what looks like stainless steel.  No grade marks on the end anyway.  If it had the same grade of steel pin and was 1.5", wow, what a load it would be able to carry. Even figuring in a safety factor of X2 or X4, I still wouldn’t use that thing of yours with my winch.  My winch can put 18000 lb on the pulley pin. I have seen big old clunkers from the UK like you describe and I have seen the pulleys split on them under load.  The guy figured he would use the ’safety factor’. Mike

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server.carolina.rr.com: At the point on the snatch block where the wire/rope is centered, the load on the wire/rope is equal to the total weight being pulled. That is the weak point. The loads may be halved on either side of the SB, but in the middle the loads add up. If one has a rope rated for 50lbs, no matter how many pullies one puts on the rope it will still fail at 55lbs.

Nope, the rope tension is still the same as before (assuming max winch load)….it *can’t* be different, in a free-rolling-block situation. It’s the action=reaction concept, not doubling anywhere in the middle. — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink       The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than      the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

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and the bumper you attatch it to.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink If you insert a snatch block or pulley you double the pulling or lifting capacity – therefore the weight on the wire is 2x. For example an 8,000lb winch will lift 16,000lbs – therfore the wire must be strong enough for this new load!!! Last I checked, 8000 lbs. spread over 2 points was 4000 lbs. per point. The only thing seeing 8000 lbs. is the snatch block. —

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Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power!

I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). Oh I forgot to mention – no need to go to the Gym ever again!!!!!!

Seems a lovely job in hot & humid weather, with nasty flies around….8-)) — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink       The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than      the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The pin on this bugger is about 1.5" solid alloy steel. Or is the pin 1.5" of soft regular grade steel? Is the end of the pin marked with the grade on it? My 1.5 ton hand winch has a pin that is 1/4" only of what looks like stainless steel.  No grade marks on the end anyway.  If it had the same grade of steel pin and was 1.5", wow, what a load it would be able to carry. Even figuring in a safety factor of X2 or X4, I still wouldn’t use that thing of yours with my winch.  My winch can put 18000 lb on the pulley pin. I have seen big old clunkers from the UK like you describe and I have seen the pulleys split on them under load.  The guy figured he would use the ’safety factor’. Mike

Firstly I think you will find even chocloate steel of 1.5" is stronget than some super tough 1/4"! Secondly what size wire does your winch have? My Tirfor has 7/16" wire and yet is rated far lower than some of these electric winches "claim" to be capable of! Just found out – the typical safety factor of these things in the UK is 10:1 so forget your x2 or x4.  I think that pulley is far safer than the safety factor on your winch will ever be. As the original poster pointed out – many electric winches are rated at what the wire will snap at!!!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you insert a snatch block or pulley you double the pulling or lifting capacity – therefore the weight on the wire is 2x. For example an 8,000lb winch will lift 16,000lbs – therfore the wire must be strong enough for this new load!!! Yeah, but there’s two wires, so the load is only (e.g.) 8000# per. With the snatch block, you’re running one wire up, and one back, if that makes sense, so the load overall is doubled, not the load per wire. — A The overall capacity is doubled, the load on the winch is halved.

I should have used ‘max load’ more consequently, otherwise things get confusing. Either max winch/wire load, or equal pull demand (halving winch/wire load). — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink       The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than      the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink If you insert a snatch block or pulley you double the pulling or lifting capacity – therefore the weight on the wire is 2x. For example an 8,000lb winch will lift 16,000lbs – therfore the wire must be strong enough for this new load!!!

No. You get two wires of 8000lbs each. Only the tree-strap, coming from that snatch-block, must cope with 16000lbs. — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink       The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than      the inability to understand [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

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The reason for the low rating is likely the center pin strength.  You can have massive pulleys and frame, but if the point they turn on is weak, that limits the load rating. I sure wouldn’t use that setup you have with anything except my 1.5 ton hand winch.  Certainly not with my Warn 9000i winch. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33×9.5 BFG Muds, ‘glass nose to tail 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT’s (Now with NO photo links due to a change in Sony’s ImageStation policy.  Folks have to join to view my albums!!!)  Pricks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Talking of snatch blocks or sheaves or pulleys – I have just been given a seriously heavy duty one – it weighs about 50lbs and yet is rated at 1.5ton – the reason for the low rating? it is certified for lifting which in the UK means massive safety margins – it makes the so called 8 ton recovery ones look like they are made out of chocolate!!!

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Talking of snatch blocks or sheaves or pulleys – I have just been given a seriously heavy duty one – it weighs about 50lbs and yet is rated at 1.5ton – the reason for the low rating? it is certified for lifting which in the UK means massive safety margins – it makes the so called 8 ton recovery ones look like they are made out of chocolate!!!

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deja.com says… Interesting experiment.  Now if your thread was a winch cable this is how the math would work (ignoring your results). The pully and whatever you connected it too would see 100% of the ‘rock’ weight. The winch cable would see 50% at either end assuming that one end it connected to the rock and the other to your finger that is so close to the rock that the line was parallel. If the lines were not parallel there would be more. How the thread acts as it goes around the pully is a bit tougher and no doubt it broke at the pully every time.  As long as your thread er… winch cable is rated at the required load with safety margin you should be fine.  Your winch though would never see the force that   broke your thread/cable. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At the point on the snatch block where the wire/rope is centered, the load on the wire/rope is equal to the total weight being pulled. That is the weak point. The loads may be halved on either side of the SB, but in the middle the loads add up. If one has a rope rated for 50lbs, no matter how many pullies one puts on the rope it will still fail at 55lbs. Ok. Just to be sure that I had not gotten anything wrong I did an experiment. I took some sewing thread and a rock. The thread was barely strong enough to hold the rock up. Any shaking whatsoever would break the thread. I then tried to lift the rock with the same thread on little (1/4 inch) pulley. EVERY time the thread broke easier than without the pulley. Why? Because all the load was concentrated on the pulley. The thread on the pulley had to deal with not only the weight on the rock, but the friction of the pulley.  Now, since the theory here was the loads are halved the friction should have not had any effect and the rock should have been easily lifted.  It wasn’t. Anyone here can duplicate this experiment. Try it. You will find that a 8,000lb load is a 8,000lb load no matter how many pulleys you put on it. Mechanical advantage may make it easier to move, but that is based on gearing more than anything else.  The load is the same.  

Response:

At the point on the snatch block where the wire/rope is centered, the load on the wire/rope is equal to the total weight being pulled. That is the weak point. The loads may be halved on either side of the SB, but in the middle the loads add up. If one has a rope rated for 50lbs, no matter how many pullies one puts on the rope it will still fail at 55lbs. Ok. Just to be sure that I had not gotten anything wrong I did an experiment. I took some sewing thread and a rock. The thread was barely strong enough to hold the rock up. Any shaking whatsoever would break the thread. I then tried to lift the rock with the same thread on little (1/4 inch) pulley. EVERY time the thread broke easier than without the pulley. Why? Because all the load was concentrated on the pulley. The thread on the pulley had to deal with not only the weight on the rock, but the friction of the pulley.  Now, since the theory here was the loads are halved the friction should have not had any effect and the rock should have been easily lifted.  It wasn’t. Anyone here can duplicate this experiment. Try it. You will find that a 8,000lb load is a 8,000lb load no matter how many pulleys you put on it. Mechanical advantage may make it easier to move, but that is based on gearing more than anything else.  The load is the same.  

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More likely it will not be off you go, it will be off your legs go… <g Most failures are not the winch side failing but on the output (hook) of the snatch block. Yes, but unless the wire is physically attached to the snatch block so that if one side breaks the other will hold you still have 8,000 lbs on the wire where it meets the snatch block. No, the whole point of a snatch block or any pulley system is to halve the load on either side. Assuming you run the line out of the winch, through the block (which is tied to an anchor) and back to the vehicle, the winch and line only see half the load.  The block and anchor see the full load.  Break the line and all bets are off.  The unbroken line will zip around the block and off you go!

Peter D. Hipson NEHOG (New England Hummer Owners Group) checked monthly.

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Peter you’re either writing it so confusingly as I can’t understand what you’re saying, or you have it completely backwards.  Pulleys and snatch-blocks reduce the load and thereby make it EASIER to lift or pull something.  Afterall, that’s why we use multiple pulley arrangements to halve, quarter, etc. the load and make it easier… so the load is never "doubled" by using a snatch-block, it is halved. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Uh, no, not on the winch side. On the line doubled through the snatch block, the load is doubled, but so is the cable, so that each piece carries the *same* load as before. On the ‘output’ side of the snatch block, the load is doubled too, so you’d better have something strong enough to take that load! Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). Peter D. Hipson NEHOG (New England Hummer Owners Group) checked monthly.

– Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL KC6TAY The Zen Hotdog… make me one with everything! Geezer Jeep:  http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/gallery/JBransfordsTJ/

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Uh, no, not on the winch side. On the line doubled through the snatch block, the load is doubled, but so is the cable, so that each piece carries the *same* load as before. On the ‘output’ side of the snatch block, the load is doubled too, so you’d better have something strong enough to take that load! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed).

Peter D. Hipson NEHOG (New England Hummer Owners Group) checked monthly.

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Yes, but unless the wire is physically attached to the snatch block so that if one side breaks the other will hold you still have 8,000 lbs on the wire where it meets the snatch block. No, the whole point of a snatch block or any pulley system is to halve the load on either side.

Assuming you run the line out of the winch, through the block (which is tied to an anchor) and back to the vehicle, the winch and line only see half the load.  The block and anchor see the full load.  Break the line and all bets are off.  The unbroken line will zip around the block and off you go!

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If one side breaks the cable goes slack and you have no load at all.

Hmm. Actually we instaneously have 8000# load going to no load at all. Whether or not steel cable snaps, or even if it’s that new plastic rope stuff, I for one do not wish to be there — A — daily his-n-hers Isuzu’s: hers 2000 Rodeo, his 2001 Rodeo Sport/Amigo others: 1993 Nissan 300ZX   1965 VW Type 3 Notchback  1992 Saturn SL2 trucks: 1974 Blazer "TankGrrl"         1990 Suburban V/2500 "SubGrrl" camping: 1977 Blazer Chalet #1060 "Camp Koala"      1977 Chalet #1383

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last I checked, 8000 lbs. spread over 2 points was 4000 lbs. per point. The only thing seeing 8000 lbs. is the snatch block. — Yes, but unless the wire is physically attached to the snatch block so that if one side breaks the other will hold you still have 8,000 lbs on the wire where it meets the snatch block.

No, the whole point of a snatch block or any pulley system is to halve the load on either side. Jerry — Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL KC6TAY The Zen Hotdog… make me one with everything! Geezer Jeep:  http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/gallery/JBransfordsTJ/

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Last I checked, 8000 lbs. spread over 2 points was 4000 lbs. per point.   The only thing seeing 8000 lbs. is the snatch block. —

Yes, but unless the wire is physically attached to the snatch block so that if one side breaks the other will hold you still have 8,000 lbs on the wire where it meets the snatch block.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). If you insert a snatch block or pulley you double the pulling or lifting capacity – therefore the weight on the wire is 2x. For example an 8,000lb winch will lift 16,000lbs – therfore the wire must be strong enough for this new load!!!

Yeah, but there’s two wires, so the load is only (e.g.) 8000# per. With the snatch block, you’re running one wire up, and one back, if that makes sense, so the load overall is doubled, not the load per wire. — A — daily his-n-hers Isuzu’s: hers 2000 Rodeo, his 2001 Rodeo Sport/Amigo others: 1993 Nissan 300ZX   1965 VW Type 3 Notchback  1992 Saturn SL2 trucks: 1974 Blazer "TankGrrl"         1990 Suburban V/2500 "SubGrrl" camping: 1977 Blazer Chalet #1060 "Camp Koala"      1977 Chalet #1383

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I beg your pardon? Wire load, other than the extra bends, doesn’t increase at all….you just *add* wires, with the same load pro wire. Also, by rolling out more wire, you can use the lower layers of the drum, increasing winch torque (but once more slowing down speed). — Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink

If you insert a snatch block or pulley you double the pulling or lifting capacity – therefore the weight on the wire is 2x. For example an 8,000lb winch will lift 16,000lbs – therfore the wire must be strong enough for this new load!!!

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Thats some damn good info to know. Using line weights and my fiber pull line instead of metal line is good. I am thinking since I do use snatch blocks my line rating is even further decreased. Now if all this stuff is correct then I am going to have to do some outside testing of my own.

Response:

Well said – people don’t seem to realise that by using snatch blocks or pullies the load on the wire increases just as much as the pulling power! I am amazed winch makers can sell something with such a small safety margin. I never use a vehicle mounted winch – I find for SELF recovery a Tirfor is much better http://www.tractel.com/Products/lift&materialshandling/hoists/tirfor/… ange.htm They are really powerful but hard work. Because they are used so much in industry they have a safety factor of 4x – ie the max pulling power before a shear pin goes is 1/4 the breaking strain of the wire. For example the 4,000lb LIFTING model has 7/16" wire rope – much better than the vehicle winches. Remember this is the lifting power – it will pull a hell of a lot more. Also with this sort of safety margin you can easily get away with a snatch block to double the pull. Although they are hard work when you get stuck you normally only need top go back a few feet – try that with a winch on the front! The other advantage is that they always work – and the pull is always the same. You can use them for lowering down a steep icy track and they have a 1001 other uses as well. Oh I forgot to mention – no need to go to the Gym ever again!!!!!!

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If you buy a winch or a wire rope with a 9000 pound load rating, don’t ever expect that you can actually pull a 9000 pound load over the fairlead, or even over the winch drum.  Load ratings are comparative and not real. They apply to the winch and the rope as individual components, rather than the lower rating that would describe the whole assembly. They are like the EPA mileage ratings; you will never do that well out in the real world. The SAE standard for rating of winches, J406, say that rated line pulls shown are for the winch only.  If a rope comes with the winch, the rated line pull gets published with a note added saying that the breaking strength of new (size and construction) rope is (XXX) pounds.  That may not be what you the consumer are expecting, but it sounds more impressive in the sales literature. The web site for MileMarker winches contains a link to a website, www.winchtest.com The winch test was unusual in that they paid an outside laboratory (Applied Technical Services or ATS for short) to only run a test of a competitor’s product (Warn XD9000i 9000 pound winch) rather than doing a comparison by also testing their own equivalent product (the 70-50030C 9000 pound single speed winch ).  They never mentioned the SAE J406 standard.  Some of the conclusions drawn in the ATS test report are that: * When pulling at or near its advertised rated capacity of 9000 lb, the Warn XD9000i winch’s wire ropes failed consistently * The wire rope failures on the XD9000i winch occurred at loads ranging from 72% to 103% of its advertised capacity * Based on standard industry calculation methods, the design breaking strength of the wire rope supplied with the Warn XD9000i winch was approximately 10% less than the winch’s advertised capacity. *The recoil from a sudden and unexpected wire rope failure could result in death or serious injury to the winch’s users or bystanders. A wire rope failure during winching could also cause the user to lose control of the vehicle. *The XD9000i was unreasonably dangerous because the users or bystanders would be exposed to the hazards produced by failure of the wire rope with no prior indication that the winch had been overloaded. What the lab report does not say is that the single speed 9000 lb MileMarker winch listed on their  web site is equipped with the same breaking strength of 5/16" diameter rope, and also the same diameter drum as on the Warn 9000 pound winch.  If MileMarker really believed the report that they paid for, then they logically should have immediately recalled their Model 70-50030C .  As of today it is still listed on their web site. The nominal tensile strength rating for a rope is a quality control test.  All it means is that is what you could expect for pulling a brand new rope in a straight line just once. It’s kind of like the EPA mileage rating –  it’s a comparative test, but you will never do that well in reality.  The ATS report notes that the tensile strength for a galvanized 7×19 wire rope is 9800 lb, but the minimum strength can be 2% less, or 9555 lb.  So, why did the ropes beak at below 9000 lb? If you look up the Wire Rope User’s Manual, you will find that when bent around a pin (the winch drum) the breaking strength of a rope is less than the rated tensile strength by a factor called the efficiency.  The efficiency is a way of accounting for bending, like a fancier version of saying that putting a knot in a fiber rope weakens it.  The winch drum is 2.5 inches in diameter, or 8 times the rope diameter, so according to Figure 38 the efficiency is 84%. So, the rope should break at a load of 0.84*9555lb, or 8026 lb. Out there in the boonies the situation is even worse because the rope may be bent around an even smaller diameter pin (the fairlead or a pulley).  For example, with a diameter ratio of 4 times the rope diameter the efficiency would only be 75%, so the rope should break at a load of 7166 lb. With a diameter ratio of 16 the efficiency would be 90%. To get an efficiency of 95% you would need a diameter ratio of 32, or a 10 inch drum for 5/16 rope and a big wart on your front bumper. A wire rope is a machine.  It has a finite life that depends on the history of how it was loaded.  The wires are only held together by friction, and every time you load the rope they are rubbing each other at a whole bunch of small spots. Eventually some of the wires will begin to break.  When you repeatedly load a rope you are progressively damaging it (fatiguing it).  How badly depends on the bending stress determined by the load and the pin diameter (drum or fairlead diameter).  The analysis section of the ATS report notes that for typical wire rope applications a wire rope is used at 1/5th of the rated tensile strength. Worse yet, the wires may also be corroding from a poultice of road salt and dirt splashed on the drum. Pittsburgh Pete INFAMOUS USS DISCLAIMER Note: It is understood that this material is intended for general information only and should not be used in relation to any specific application without independent examination and verification of its applicability and suitability by professionally qualified personnel. Those making use thereof or relying thereon assume all risk and liability arising from such use or reliance. ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF DISCLAIMER We don’t believe what we write, and neither should you. Information furnished to you is for topical (external) use only. This information may not be worth any more than either a groundhog turd, or what you paid for it (nothing). The author may not even have been either sane or sober when he wrote it down. Don’t worry, be happy.

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Question:

Matthew 16:18.  And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. Notice here that Jesus is saying that on Peter he will build His CHURCH. Not churches, not one of many churches. He didn’t say anything about a franchise operation. No there was one church and that church was given certain authorities. That church, now known as the Catholic Church, has had those authorities and responsibilities passed down through the Bishops and the sucessors to Peter, now called Popes. Nowadays any yahoo can buy or rent a building, attach a cross to it, and claim to be a church. But I’ve learned the hard way that this cannot biblically be done. Just playing church doesn’t make you a church. To be part of the church founded by Christ, it must have the authorities given by Christ.

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    Matthew 16:18.  And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will     build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.     Notice here that Jesus is saying that on Peter he will build His     CHURCH. Not churches, not one of many churches. He didn’t say anything     about a franchise operation.   Notice here how you have perverted Scripture.   Jesus built His church on the statement that Peter made  (which you conveniently left out).   Matthew 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.   17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.   The interpretation that you have made is the obvious perversion.  You know as well as anyone that the original was and I tell you that you are Petros, and on this Petra I shall build my church.  Do you know why no one has ever translated "kai" in this sentence as "but"?  It is because everyone who has ever translated this for a modern translation realizes that the comparison of Petros and Petra rules out this interpretation.     Stick any other noun in this sentence and you will see how absurd your translation is.  For example   And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art <good.  And Jesus answered and said unto him, blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.  And so I tell you, you are a <Sedan, and on this <Car I will build my church, and hell shall not prevail against it.   Since the statement "Thou art good" has not been identified as a car of any sort, how can it be established that the Car upon which the church will be built is the statement "Thou art good".  It is obvious to any honest reader with no underlying doctrinal bias that the Sedan is the Car on which I will build my church.  Try this exercise any way you wish.  This interpretation simply does not hold up.  And most modern Protestant theologians admit as much.  In fact in the Anchor Study Bible (a protestant translation) the Catholic interpretation is upheld as correct.  In the example I used a class and a subclass of that class as an example.  In the actual translation the words are really the same.  Petros is simply the masculine form of Petra.  So the example holds up as well as the original with an inferior relationship between the Sedan and Car then between Petros and Petra.   If you want to fool yourself with such nonsense then go right ahead but do not be frustrated if we do not hold to your interpretation when others more competent than you have shown your position to be false.   Psalm 51:16  For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it:   thou delightest not in burnt offering.   17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite   heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.   Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the gentiles; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the gentiles, says the LORD of hosts.

Response:

Fundies only help to support the history of His Church, the Catholic Church when they resort to flat-out MORONIC interpretations of the Bible in vain attempts to lend credibility to the claims of their own churches. Thanks for supporting His Church, the Catholic Church. +JMJ; M. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   =20    Matthew 16:18.  And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I = will=20    build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against = it.=20    Notice here that Jesus is saying that on Peter he will build His=20    CHURCH. Not churches, not one of many churches. He didn’t say = anything=20    about a franchise operation.  Notice here how you have perverted Scripture.=20  Jesus built His church on the statement that Peter made  (which you = conveniently left out).=20  Matthew 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the = Christ, the Son of the living God.=20  17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon = Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my = Father which is in heaven.=20  The interpretation that you have made is the obvious perversion.  You = know as well as anyone that the original was and I tell you that you are = Petros, and on this Petra I shall build my church.  Do you know why no = one has ever translated "kai" in this sentence as "but"?  It is because = everyone who has ever translated this for a modern translation realizes = that the comparison of Petros and Petra rules out this interpretation. =20  Stick any other noun in this sentence and you will see how absurd your = translation is.  For example  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art <good.  And Jesus = answered and said unto him, blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh = and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in = heaven.  And so I tell you, you are a <Sedan, and on this <Car I will = build my church, and hell shall not prevail against it.  Since the statement "Thou art good" has not been identified as a car = of any sort, how can it be established that the Car upon which the = church will be built is the statement "Thou art good".  It is obvious to = any honest reader with no underlying doctrinal bias that the Sedan is = the Car on which I will build my church.  Try this exercise any way you = wish.  This interpretation simply does not hold up.  And most modern = Protestant theologians admit as much.  In fact in the Anchor Study Bible = (a protestant translation) the Catholic interpretation is upheld as = correct.  In the example I used a class and a subclass of that class as = an example.  In the actual translation the words are really the same.  = Petros is simply the masculine form of Petra.  So the example holds up = as well as the original with an inferior relationship between the Sedan = and Car then between Petros and Petra.  If you want to fool yourself with such nonsense then go right ahead = but do not be frustrated if we do not hold to your interpretation when = others more competent than you have shown your position to be false.  Psalm 51:16  For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it:=20  thou delightest not in burnt offering.=20  17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a = contrite=20  heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.=20  Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name = is great among the gentiles; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my = name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the gentiles, says = the LORD of hosts.=20   =20 Content-Type: text/html;    charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" <HTML<HEAD <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1" <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2462.0" name=3DGENERATOR <STYLE</STYLE </HEAD <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff <DIV<FONT face=3DArial size=3D2</FONT

Question:

Robinson Burdette Martin Seright & Burrows L.L.P in Lubbock, TX has positions available for in-charge auditors and audit managers.  We offer competitive salaries in a city with a low cost of living.  We are the largest public accounting firm in Lubbock and our audit practice continues to grow.  Our clients are primarily in banking, governmental , and agriculture.  Our firm is a former Coopers and Lybrand office, and we are now a network firm of McGladrey & Pullen.  See our website at www.rbmsb.com for more information. Also, for more information on Lubbock, see http://www.marketlubbock.com/profile.html

Response:

Interest parties should forward resumes to or contact me at

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Robinson Burdette Martin Seright & Burrows L.L.P in Lubbock, TX has positions available for in-charge auditors and audit managers.  We offer competitive salaries in a city with a low cost of living.  We are the largest public accounting firm in Lubbock and our audit practice continues to grow.  Our clients are primarily in banking, governmental , and agriculture.  Our firm is a former Coopers and Lybrand office, and we are now a network firm of McGladrey & Pullen.  See our website at www.rbmsb.com for more information. Also, for more information on Lubbock, see http://www.marketlubbock.com/profile.html

Response:

Question:

Are corporations in Canada bound by law to follow CICA guidelines? As long as they pay their taxes, will they be prosecuted for not following CICA?

Response:

Are corporations in Canada bound by law to follow CICA guidelines? As long as they pay their taxes, will they be prosecuted for not following CICA?

The only references to accounting methods in the ITA are the accrual method and  cash method and who they apply to, and that neither equity or consolidated methods shall be used in detrmining any amount for the purposes of the act. The ACT is very specific as to what is income and what is deductible and generally GAAP is acceptable as part of the journey in determining taxable income. They would be not prosecuted, income tax would be assessed or re-assessed according to the rules of the ITA -yes. If it is an audit or review engagement  by a public accountant then compliance with GAAP is reported on the financials. Other than that only an audit by the tax department could uncover any  GAAP discrepancies. Later… David S.

Response:

In addition to the ITA, most Business Corporations Acts in Canada  (Federal & Most Provinces) make specific reference to CICA standards as a requirement for financial reporting. Brian Ontario, Canada

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know what the reputation is of the accounting department at Equifax? What is the environment like in the accounting department? I have been on several interviews with this company, but I am unsure of whether I really want to work there. Any positive or negative feedback would be greatly appreciated. Sarah

Response:

They were VERY rude with me when i had a little bill problem  I lodged a complaint and apparently I wasn’t the first. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know what the reputation is of the accounting department at Equifax? What is the environment like in the accounting department? I have been on several interviews with this company, but I am unsure of whether I really want to work there. Any positive or negative feedback would be greatly appreciated. Sarah

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, I’ve tried playing around with jounal entries and using the forms in QB Pro and using the book and help file and need some help … Problem 1 (mileage recordkeeping): I have a personally-owned vehicle which I use in my part-time consulting business. As such, I am using the mileage method for auto expenses (yes, I’ve logged everything). I want QB Pro to track these expenses for taxes and business profit reports since it’s part of my overhead. There’s no easy entry form for recording mileage so what I’ve come up with is this using the Make Journal Entry:    1. Enter (miles * $/mile) amount as a debit in account for         keeping track of mileage; e.g., ‘Automobile Expenses | Mileage’    2. Enter offsetting amount as credit in ‘Owners Capital | Investments’        This is because I use my own cash for the gas, etc. Am I going about this correctly? Any suggestions if I’m not?

Yes Problem 2 (Fixed Assets & Use Taxes):

I better not comment as I’m not familiar with your tax system. — Peter Saxton from London

Response:

See my comments below. #-   #-  OK, I’ve tried playing around with jounal entries and using the forms in QB #-  Pro and using the book and help file and need some help … #-   #-  Problem 1 (mileage recordkeeping): #-   #-  I have a personally-owned vehicle which I use in my part-time consulting #-  business. As such, I am using the mileage method for auto expenses (yes, #-  I’ve logged everything). I want QB Pro to track these expenses for taxes #-  and business profit reports since it’s part of my overhead. #-   #-  There’s no easy entry form for recording mileage so what I’ve come up with #-  is this using the Make Journal Entry: #-   #-      1. Enter (miles * $/mile) amount as a debit in account for #-           keeping track of mileage; e.g., ‘Automobile Expenses | Mileage’ #-      2. Enter offsetting amount as credit in ‘Owners Capital | Investments’ #-          This is because I use my own cash for the gas, etc. #-   #-  Am I going about this correctly? Any suggestions if I’m not? #-   #-  Yes Thank you for vaildating my idea — thought no one would answer! #-  Problem 2 (Fixed Assets & Use Taxes): #-   #-  I better not comment as I’m not familiar with your tax system. Pretty simple really … In my state (USA), if you bought something at a store, etc., you would add 7% of the sticker price as a sales tax. The store would track this amount and submit the sales taxes paid to the state. However, if I buy something on the web or mail-order out of my state or through my distributor for use in my business (let’s say a file cabinet to really make it simple), they do not in the course of business add any sales tax since they do not maintain a nexus (physical place of business) in the state. However, since the govenment wants its $$$, the tax law states that I have to report this purchase and pay the equivalent tax amount directly to the state and the merchant does not act as an agent. This is called a Use Tax. Same amount to the same agency, just cuts out the middleman. #-   #-  Peter Saxton from London Thanks again for taking the time! Ed

Response:

Hi Ed: Problem 2: The Sales Tax Adjustment function should accomplish what you need.  (Well, it works in Canada.  Seems like it should work in the U.S.) Problem 1 I hesitate to discuss.  I expect that the relevant law and rules are somewhat similar in Canada and the U.S., but there may be significant differences. OK, I’ve tried playing around with journal

entries and using the forms in QB Pro and using the book and help file and need some help … Problem 1 (mileage recordkeeping): I have a personally-owned vehicle which I use in

my part-time consulting business. As such, I am using the mileage method

for auto expenses (yes, I’ve logged everything). I want QB Pro to track

these expenses for taxes and business profit reports since it’s part of my overhead. There’s no easy entry form for recording mileage

so what I’ve come up with is this using the Make Journal Entry:     1. Enter (miles * $/mile) amount as a debit in account for          keeping track of mileage; e.g.,

‘Automobile Expenses | Mileage’     2. Enter offsetting amount as credit in

‘Owners Capital | Investments’         This is because I use my own cash for the gas, etc. Am I going about this correctly? Any suggestions if I’m not? Problem 2 (Fixed Assets & Use Taxes): When I order a fixed asset (computer, printer,

file cabinet) directly for my business, I use the ‘Fixed Asset | Asset

Cost’ account to post it to. If I have to take it from inventory, I use the

Inventory Adjustment to transfer the value to the ‘Asset Cost’ account. Now my problem, in either case I usually bought

it without paying sales tax so I incurred a Use Tax for my business. How do

I go about entering the ‘Use Tax’ so it shows up in the Asset cost

(since IRS considers taxes, etc. part of the depreciable cost) and also shows up

in the ‘Sales Tax Payable’ liability account? I need to keep track of this

so I send the state the correct amount of taxes. After 3 hectic months I

find I often forget it. If I don’t get it there, it also screws up my ‘Pay

Sales Tax’ function for the rest of the year since I overpay what QB says I

owe to cover the Use Tax. Any ideas?  I tried looking in some accounting

textbooks but none discuss this situation or I’m too stupid to figure it out from there. Thanks for your time!! You may email me direct … take out nospam from

the address.

Response:

OK, I’ve tried playing around with jounal entries and using the forms in QB Pro and using the book and help file and need some help … Problem 1 (mileage recordkeeping): I have a personally-owned vehicle which I use in my part-time consulting business. As such, I am using the mileage method for auto expenses (yes, I’ve logged everything). I want QB Pro to track these expenses for taxes and business profit reports since it’s part of my overhead. There’s no easy entry form for recording mileage so what I’ve come up with is this using the Make Journal Entry:     1. Enter (miles * $/mile) amount as a debit in account for          keeping track of mileage; e.g., ‘Automobile Expenses | Mileage’     2. Enter offsetting amount as credit in ‘Owners Capital | Investments’         This is because I use my own cash for the gas, etc. Am I going about this correctly? Any suggestions if I’m not? Problem 2 (Fixed Assets & Use Taxes): When I order a fixed asset (computer, printer, file cabinet) directly for my business, I use the ‘Fixed Asset | Asset Cost’ account to post it to. If I have to take it from inventory, I use the Inventory Adjustment to transfer the value to the ‘Asset Cost’ account. Now my problem, in either case I usually bought it without paying sales tax so I incurred a Use Tax for my business. How do I go about entering the ‘Use Tax’ so it shows up in the Asset cost (since IRS considers taxes, etc. part of the depreciable cost) and also shows up in the ‘Sales Tax Payable’ liability account? I need to keep track of this so I send the state the correct amount of taxes. After 3 hectic months I find I often forget it. If I don’t get it there, it also screws up my ‘Pay Sales Tax’ function for the rest of the year since I overpay what QB says I owe to cover the Use Tax. Any ideas?  I tried looking in some accounting textbooks but none discuss this situation or I’m too stupid to figure it out from there. Thanks for your time!! You may email me direct … take out nospam from the address.

Response:

Question:

 Which programs are best… and why ?? and if your in the mood, which are worst and why (interested in the low to mid-range package answers)

Response:

I don’t think any program can beat Visual AccountMate when it comes to Import. The program is written in FoxPro and all of the information is stored in FoxPro databases. These files can be read or update from any program that will read and write FoxPro files.  With ODBC this would include almost all of Microsoft’s products. The program also has a build in ability to import information from text files. In addition source code is available which allows modification of the build in import functions and/or development of custom import functions. — Myron Joy CPA       Joy & Associates P.C.       Phoenix Az Accountants and Information Technology Consultants. Developers of ClientLink E-Accounting Software. Visual AccountMate Business Partner.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which programs are best… and why ?? and if your in the mood, which are worst and why (interested in the low to mid-range package answers)

Response:

Your can get and ODBC driver for Peachtree and link to it via MS Access or any other database. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which programs are best… and why ?? and if your in the mood, which are worst and why (interested in the low to mid-range package answers)

Response:

You might be able to get the driver, but you can’t get the ddf (file definition) files. The closest you can come to an ODBC link is by using PAWET. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your can get and ODBC driver for Peachtree and link to it via MS Access or any other database. Which programs are best… and why ?? and if your in the mood, which are worst and why (interested in the low to mid-range package answers)

Response:

Which programs are best… and why ?? and if your in the mood, which are worst and why (interested in the low to mid-range package answers)

Batch importing is bad. Any business that has enough volume to need an interface to their accounting system is too big to run the separate systems out of synch. with regards to the customer list, balances in AP, AR, and sales and other data. Look for a realtime interface to the accounting system’s own modules for adding, editing and deleting accounting data.  That way you are sure you’re getting the data validation you need. There are many accounting systems with a COM interface and software development kits at a reasonable price, such as CYMA IV, Peachtree OFfice Accounting, Visual Accountmate, AFD accounting for Delphi, etc. There are also many more expensive ones such as Solomon, Adapta Accounts, etc. on up the line. A 2nd option is any accounting system that has at least the bare minimum of operability by command line interfaces, etc. to enable automation of the import process and verificcation of the batch totals.  Unfor. Peachtree doesn’t quite make it.  It’s close. But you will have continual glitches with the import if there isn’t careful preparation of your import batches. Basically you’d have to program a module to handle the import otherwise it would go astray fairly oftn.  The problem isnt’; that the problems are severe — the problem is they require somewhat of a computer geek on site to fix them.  With a compiled solution wired into the COM interface of the accounting sytem you don’t have that problem. You can walk away from it, without having it blow up later. nuffa this, Todd

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Question:

There are two types of people who should read this website (and come back in a month, and read it again)  1.  Accountants, and  2.  Accounting software technologist. In particular, don’t skip the references to XML and DTD drafts that are actually in usage in some test auditing and accounting processes. http://24.5.124.5/aicpa/financials/Greatplains/defaultViewer.htm http://24.5.124.5/Aicpa/overview/JoAXMLArticle.htm The above XML demonstration requires Microsoft IE5. (I guess one may expect that the vendor who is the "first with the mostest", will get purchased and used first. I understand the AICPA will, in the coming months, issue some substantial report or recommendations, on the use of XML in accounting. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * Accounting ASP, Web ledger, netledger, web GL, GL Dialtone, whatever.

Response:

Look at this news release June 9th, 1999 Financial Products Markup Language (FpML) http://xml.com/xml/pub/coverpage/newspage.html#ni1999-06-09-d "From a recent company announcement entitled "Introducing FpML: A New Standard for E-commerce": "J.P. Morgan & Co. Incorporated and PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP announced the release of FpML (Financial Products Markup Language), a new protocol for Internet-based electronic dealing and information sharing of financial derivatives, initially handling interest rate and foreign exchange products. The specification, which will be freely licensed, is expected to set the standard within these industries for the rapidly growing field of business-to-business electronic commerce. Based on XML, the emerging Internet standard for data-sharing between applications, FpML enables Internet-based integration of a range of services, from electronic trading and confirmations to portfolio specification for risk analysis." [So,] ‘How does this standard relate to others’ like FIX/FIXML, OFX, etc.? "While XML is a standard, only the syntax has been standardized. To be useful, each industry is required to define a common set of industry-specific definitions. Several organizations have been working to define these market-segment-specific definitions. Examples of languages in progress include FIX, for the equities market, and OFX, for consumer financial activities….." Go to the HTTP://www.xml.com/ website.  They have a mailing list which is how I got ahold of this. The new FpML standard is not particularly significant in itself, for small businesses or Web GL developers trying to automate our accounting processes. However in my view it is very useful and beneficial in setting a pattern and a precedent, for domain experts in the accounting and finance industries designing the DTDs and semantic processes for ourselves rather than wait passively for powerful, self-interested software companies, or corporations in the banking sector, to design them for us. The emergence of FpML also might awaken the slumbering accountancy bodies to the facts of life:  if you want to get the benefit of XML, you have to settle on some standard words to use for tags.  For example, there might be a tag <current assets or <work in process. And yes, there might have to be a tag <cash, <accounts receivable. The whole generic chart of accounts. I look forward to that chart of accounts because from the day it is released, gateways and import/export modules will begin to appear on all accounting software enabling us to post intercompany transactions programmatically. It will be the beginning of the end of proprietary lockin by Intuit Quickbooks, Sage Peachtree and all the other accounting systems, and it will be the beginning of a new age of automating our small systems, and hooking them to the internet. Some elements in the accountancy and legal professions hate to have the same word mean the same thing in all contexts because we get paid so much money for pondering the meanings in various contexts, sprinkling holy water on them and blessing the semantics in the reports as GAAP.  Thus, the needed DTDs may never emerge, or they may emerge with <see footnotes tags embedded everyplace, making most XML financial statements unusable.   Or, in keeping with historical precedent, the accountancy bodies may come out with something as thick as the white pages, basically recapitulating much of GAAP itself, to define the tags… * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * Accounting ASP, Web ledger, netledger, web GL, GL Dialtone, whatever.

Response:

Question:

We are FUND E-Z nad we sell a reasonably priced Fund accounting system check us out at http://www.fundez.com/.  Many of our clients swithed from Quickbooks. If you have any questions please contact me at 914-696-0900 Mike Benowitz FUND E-Z Development Corp. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Group: I’ve been asked by a small local Non-Profit seniors community center Organization (NPO) (They run the normal activities: Thrift Shop, Bingo, Senior Tours and other activities) if it is OK to switch accounting software from Quatro Pro to Quick Books Pro (QBP) (1996 Version). They are trying to symplify the entire accounting and bookkeeping function and at the same time produce the normal necessary management reports on a timely basis while maintaining the normal oversite management controls. (Sorry to use the word "normal" twice!) Things to be considered in your reply are: 1. How well does QBP work with the various revenue and cost centers that an NPO usually has? 2. Are there significant deficiencies in the QBP software that could affect the NPO’s ability to carry out its mandated function? 3. Any other reasons you feel are appropriate to be discussed in this matter. 4. If you believe that the QBP software in inadequate (after specifying your reasons for same), can you suggest alternative software that is reasonably priced for the NPO. Your suggestions on this matter are appreciated in advance! Regards, Al Gershen, Inactive CPA Grants Pass, Oregon, USA and thru ICQ # 12342782 (Message posted thru Deja News on Friday, 12/11/98 at apx. 6:14 PM PST [GMT -8]) — Regards, Al Gershen, Grants Pass, OR, USA

Response:

Hi Group: I’ve been asked by a small local Non-Profit seniors community center Organization (NPO) (They run the normal activities: Thrift Shop, Bingo, Senior Tours and other activities) if it is OK to switch accounting software from Quatro Pro to Quick Books Pro (QBP) (1996 Version). They are trying to symplify the entire accounting and bookkeeping function and at the same time produce the normal necessary management reports on a timely basis while maintaining the normal oversite management controls. (Sorry to use the word "normal" twice!) Things to be considered in your reply are: 1. How well does QBP work with the various revenue and cost centers that an NPO usually has? 2. Are there significant deficiencies in the QBP software that could affect the NPO’s ability to carry out its mandated function? 3. Any other reasons you feel are appropriate to be discussed in this matter. 4. If you believe that the QBP software in inadequate (after specifying your reasons for same), can you suggest alternative software that is reasonably priced for the NPO. Your suggestions on this matter are appreciated in advance! Regards, Al Gershen, Inactive CPA Grants Pass, Oregon, USA and thru ICQ # 12342782 (Message posted thru Deja News on Friday, 12/11/98 at apx. 6:14 PM PST [GMT -8]) — Regards, Al Gershen, Grants Pass, OR, USA

Response:

Question:

More questions from someone calling themselves M. Probert.

I never call myself M. Probert. Mark S. Probert Long Island, New York

Response:

The Real-Real Dr. Frager FAQ Question: Why will some people make up posts using your name and then in a Machiavellian twist, respond to their own posts? Answer: You must remember that the medical-industrial complex in this country is not filled entirely with, but is significantly shaped by, outright crooks, bookkeeping tricksters, piratical profiteers, corrupt doctors, hospital administrators, drug and insurance executives who are robbing taxpayers of perhaps as much as $130, billion a year (a Consumer Report estimate) in providing overpriced, useless and often harmful services.   The General Accounting Office, being slightly more conservative, predicts that the thieves of corporate medicine will soon be pocketing each year at least $100 billion through fraud and overbilling.  Add to that the estimated $70  billion a year wasted by corporate health bureaucrats, paid with our premium dollars and medical bills to do nothing but shuffle papers, and it’s plain to see we are throwing away more that enough money to cover health care for the 40 million Americans who, for lack of income or insurance, can’t afford to be sick at all, and the 40 million others who are constantly scared because they are underinsured. Currently, the trillion-dollar industry is divided up about like this: #1) Hospitals ($410 billion) with the big for-profit chains growing fast. #2) Doctors ($200 billion) #3) Nursing homes and home health care ($110 billion) #4) Drug Companies ($100 billion) #5) Insurance Companies ($65 billion) #6) Others ($100 billion+) This list includes dentists, optometrists, physical therapists, and pharmacists. These groups are doing splendidly in ripping-off the American public   for an ever-increasing sum of money; and they are currently increasing it’s share of the GNP.  The public should be reminded again and again of the character of the people and institutions Congress keeps surrendering to, and of the fact that with their greed comes a stunningly callous attitude toward patients. Question: Dr. Frager are you a troll or a considerate and concerned citizen? A: I’m glad I asked that:  I care about every person and believe in human rights for all; whether they are political prisoners, victims of a brutal military dictatorship or a child that has been misdiagnosed and made to take a pill that could change his personality, permanently for the worse.   If being a diligent citizen makes me a troll, then so be it.   I would rather be concerned about those people with the least amount of influence over their lives, then some kind of "hate-monger" that spreads lies, deception and mistrust.  Call me what you will, but those that are apathetic about our fellow human beings are of no use to us.  Those that want to make a real change that is all inclusive, are the people we need in our Movement.   Those that want to make health care a public service and not a commodity; and a system that treats people with dignity and integrity instead of like cattle to the slaughter; are the kind of folks we need.   Certain members of this newsgroup will do anything to drown out dissenting opinions; those views that do agree with the party-line.  Some of those methods include: Making threats; writing phony posts; canceling posts; harassment and otherwise intimidate innocent people whose only fault is that they need real facts and not the kind of emotional double-speak that passes for information around here.  Thank you More questions from someone calling themselves M. Probert. Q: Who is this person calling himself "Dr. Richard X. Frager"? Is it his real name?

A: Yes, it is.  He is  a trustworthy and considerate person. One who believes that everyone has a right to express their opinions and the right to be fully informed about health care.  Dr. Frager is against the brave new world of corporatized medicine which puts profits before people and the ability to pay before the ability to get well. Q:  Is he a real doctor?

A: Yes, in fact. he is.  And a very good one according to those who know him. Q:  Is his point of view valid?

A: Indeed.  Everything he writes is factual, well-documented with flawless references that have been checked and verified extensively. Q:  Has he ever broken the law?

A: Yes!  He was indicted for Jay-Walking in Manhattan during October 1982. He pleaded No Contest and paid a fine of $10 and promised never to do it again.  He has kept his promise.  Also, he forgot to feed a parking meter in 1990 and accordingly received a parking ticket in Boston, which cost him $35.  He learned his lesson again!! Q:  Why does he seem to pick on certain people and ignore the others who constantly criticize him?

A:   That is an incorrect interpretation of what he says and what he posts. Dr. Frager sometimes addresses the posts that seem to unfairly censure and smear his opinions.   He does not "pick" on anyone but gently correct those "hate-mongers" who try to divide people. Q:  Does he criticize parents?

A: No.  What would be the purpose of that?   If anything, Dr. Frager supports parents who will look at all their medical options with an open-mind before deciding on the correct course of action for their families well-being.   Q:  Why do some people want to get his ISP to pull his account?

A: Because they can’t bully, threaten or otherwise harass him to their point of view!  There is plenty of documentation on these tragic episodes! Q:  How do I know to believe you?

A: Like you would analyze any data, look at what Dr. Frager writes and make up your own mind.  He has the support of Linda James, Sandra Lee, Ann Ost, Lisa Clark , Shari Soza, Sara Freeman and Tim Brown to name just a few.   Check those names out on your DejaNews or your Alta Vista.  I believe you will find the truth there.  Thank you very much for everyone’s support.  But after all, this IS a support group!!!

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