Question:

Being imperfect does NOT mean being useless.

I should hope not. If it did, there would be nothing of use in existence. easy2000

Response:

GAO, an excellent organization, makes mistakes too.  They have streamlined in recent years so costs should be pretty good. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think he and the people supporting this suggestion have the slightest concept of the cost. You would get audits of the highest quality (the audits of the internationals are chump change compared to the audits the G.A.O. grinds out), but it would be like requiring mink covered bar stools. … Sounds like we’d be creating another big bureaucracy. Mara << — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

And how well the Post Office works, and how modern the air traffic control system is, and how well the boarder patrol works, and how successful the war on drugs was, and how the FBI has completely eliminated organized crime & foreign nations spying, and how the CIA has really kept us informed about foreign threats, and on and on and As I’ve said before, if your going to do one narrow thing, you can do it with a government function, once you get into a commercial process, forget it  government will always fail. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And do not forget that part of the reason for the S&L fiasco was [1] a "midnight change" in the deposit insurance limit from $10,000 to $100,000 made in conference committee with no floor debate and [2] an  Act of Congress declaring that "goodwill" on certain mergers was a "good" asset for regulatory purposes but this "statutory goodwill" was later "derecognized" due to a subsequent law change which was probably the most significant trigger for the S&L disaster. These SEC auditors would not be beholden to any company because as employees of the SEC, their overall responsibility is to the investing public. Sounds good–but I wonder if it would be true in practice.  That is, if auditors are free to leave the SEC and go to work for the entities they had previously audited, will they truly be "free" of such bias? Although I am not a person involved in the savings and loan industry, wasn’t it the case that the fiasco that took place in the S&L industry took place under the "supervision" of government employed bank examiners?  How do we prevent the same forces from skewing an SEC audit department?

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

GAO, an excellent organization, makes mistakes too.  They have streamlined in recent years so costs should be pretty good.

(snip) Being imperfect does NOT mean being useless. As auditors we (should) know there is no such thing as verifiable 100 % compliance. Impossible by definition. It seems that we all agree that what the AICPA, state accounting boards, SEC and other organisations have done to date has clearly proved inadequate. Without inventing new huge burocracies (cost/effectiveness applies to regulation) the SEC should IMHO actively monitor and control (with an adequate staff of qualified auditors) the self-regulating procedures already in place and complement them with their own audits, both of SEC subject entities and of certifying audit firms. The state authorities should also increase their directly monitoring, control and enforcement activities with adequate resources. (e.g.: Jim Hudspeth told us that the State of Washington have no audit inspectors at all.) A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption using pgp. To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Uzi NSA Albanian strategic FBI Soviet Honduras North Korea CIA

Response:

These SEC auditors would not be beholden to any company because as employees of the SEC, their overall responsibility is to the investing public.

Sounds good–but I wonder if it would be true in practice.  That is, if auditors are free to leave the SEC and go to work for the entities they had previously audited, will they truly be "free" of such bias? Although I am not a person involved in the savings and loan industry, wasn’t it the case that the fiasco that took place in the S&L industry took place under the "supervision" of government employed bank examiners?  How do we prevent the same forces from skewing an SEC audit department?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi group: The Enron affair should show us that auditing of publicly held companies by CPA firms does not work.  These firms do not appear to be independent in their reporting when their other arms provides other services to the same company thereby resulting in major conflicts of interest. What is needed is for the SEC to create a NEW auditing division to handle the certified audits of ALL publicly held companies that report to the SEC.  This division would be made up of professional CPAs, drawn from the private sector, who have only one responsiblity…..to see that the company presents it financial statements as fairly as possible with all necessary disclosures. These SEC auditors would not be beholden to any company because as employees of the SEC, their overall responsibility is to the investing public. I realize that the American Institute of CPAs (AICPA) would never support a plan such as I am proposing because they are controlled by the large CPA firms.  Such a self serving posture will only hurt the AICPA and CPAs, both today and in the future. What are your thoughts on this proposal? Regards, Al Gershen, Inactive CPA Grants Pass, OR Aldg’s Photos at http://communities.msn.com/AldgsPhoto

Sounds like we’d be creating another big bureaucracy. Mara <<

Response:

I agree with you.  Other argument:  Uncle Sam doesn’t pay as well as private firms ergo can’t attract sufficient qualified auditors, etc.  The dedication aside, money talks. OTOH, others argue that gov’t auditors are dedicated and that public service outweighs payment.  Nah I’ve seen excellent audits by private firms (KPMG for example) and  poor work (nameless). I’ve seen screwups by gov’t auditors too. Conclusion:  Gov’t auditors won’t be the panacea.  Keep U. Sam out of private industry as much as possible. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi group: The Enron affair should show us that auditing of publicly held companies by CPA firms does not work.  These firms do not appear to be independent in their reporting when their other arms provides other services to the same company thereby resulting in major conflicts of interest. What is needed is for the SEC to create a NEW auditing division to handle the certified audits of ALL publicly held companies that report to the SEC.  This division would be made up of professional CPAs, drawn from the private sector, who have only one responsiblity…..to see that the company presents it financial statements as fairly as possible with all necessary disclosures. These SEC auditors would not be beholden to any company because as employees of the SEC, their overall responsibility is to the investing public. I realize that the American Institute of CPAs (AICPA) would never support a plan such as I am proposing because they are controlled by the large CPA firms.  Such a self serving posture will only hurt the AICPA and CPAs, both today and in the future. What are your thoughts on this proposal? Regards, Al Gershen, Inactive CPA Grants Pass, OR Aldg’s Photos at http://communities.msn.com/AldgsPhoto Sounds like we’d be creating another big bureaucracy. Mara <<

Response:

Hi group: The Enron affair should show us that auditing of publicly held companies by CPA firms does not work.  These firms do not appear to be independent in their reporting when their other arms provides other services to the same company thereby resulting in major conflicts of interest. What is needed is for the SEC to create a NEW auditing division to handle the certified audits of ALL publicly held companies that report to the SEC.  This division would be made up of professional CPAs, drawn from the private sector, who have only one responsiblity…..to see that the company presents it financial statements as fairly as possible with all necessary disclosures. These SEC auditors would not be beholden to any company because as employees of the SEC, their overall responsibility is to the investing public. I realize that the American Institute of CPAs (AICPA) would never support a plan such as I am proposing because they are controlled by the large CPA firms.  Such a self serving posture will only hurt the AICPA and CPAs, both today and in the future. What are your thoughts on this proposal? Regards, Al Gershen, Inactive CPA Grants Pass, OR Aldg’s Photos at http://communities.msn.com/AldgsPhotos (Submitted thru google.com on 01/16/02 at apx. 7:50 AM PST)

Response:

And do not forget that part of the reason for the S&L fiasco was [1] a "midnight change" in the deposit insurance limit from $10,000 to $100,000 made in conference committee with no floor debate and [2] an  Act of Congress declaring that "goodwill" on certain mergers was a "good" asset for regulatory purposes but this "statutory goodwill" was later "derecognized" due to a subsequent law change which was probably the most significant trigger for the S&L disaster. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These SEC auditors would not be beholden to any company because as employees of the SEC, their overall responsibility is to the investing public. Sounds good–but I wonder if it would be true in practice.  That is, if auditors are free to leave the SEC and go to work for the entities they had previously audited, will they truly be "free" of such bias? Although I am not a person involved in the savings and loan industry, wasn’t it the case that the fiasco that took place in the S&L industry took place under the "supervision" of government employed bank examiners?  How do we prevent the same forces from skewing an SEC audit department?

Response:

I don’t think he and the people supporting this suggestion have the slightest concept of the cost. You would get audits of the highest quality (the audits of the internationals are chump change compared to the audits the G.A.O. grinds out), but it would be like requiring mink covered bar stools.

… Sounds like we’d be creating another big bureaucracy. Mara <<

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *           the Seventh worst state for business,             * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

Question:

They offer their whole accounting package (list $1499) to CPA’s for $99. Has anyone had any experience with them? — Karl E Irvin, CPA  -  Arlington, Texas

Response:

Karl, Like all accounting packages, one size does not fit all. What line of business are you seeking the accounting program for? A-Systems, providers of job cost accounting since 1978, has a program for CPAs also.  Any CPA who has a client on A-Systems JobView receives a copy of JobView at no cost, nothing, zilch, nada.  The software is set to run only the data from that client, though.  As additional clients use the software, their data can be viewed with JobView. By the way, Cougar Mountain no longer provides job cost accounting software. Arnold A-Systems Corporation – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They offer their whole accounting package (list $1499) to CPA’s for $99. Has anyone had any experience with them? — Karl E Irvin, CPA  -  Arlington, Texas

Response:

Question:

What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Oh, now that’s an easy one.  Last fall’s Corning N.Y. marathon. I had the training in the tank.  I had tapered perfectly.  I ran the first five miles at a 7:45 pace, holding back big time. I allowed my self to open it up just a little more and ran the next five in 7:40-7:30. I’m still holding back, the legs are telling me 7:20… No problem, I’m saving it until mile 16, then I’ll open it up.  I get to the half way mark in the best time I’ve ever run a half marathon in.  Then something happens in my right butt cheek and the pirifomus grabs a hold of my sciatic nerve.  The pain starts quietly, but quickly reaches around to the front and down my leg. All I can say is that miles 16 to 18 were the toughest I’ve ever travelled. Walk 50 feet. Run 50 feet.  Stop.  Stretch out the leg.  Repeat.  The pain never did go away, but eased slightly after 19 miles, but it was still limp/run as best I could to the finish. In spite of the fact that I "REALLY" wanted the finishers glass medallion, if the meat wagon had come along at that point I’d have DNF’ed.  "Don’t bother with the anaesthetics, Doc. Just cut off the leg, it can’t be any more painful than it is right now."     Mark

Response:

P1X…, First, great thread. I think it was my first race ever.  Last years Bix7.  I was in so much pain afterwards, I didn’t think my legs would ever come out of it. As for problems at the finish line, well three times now I have almost returned my water to the course.  My stomach doesn’t always like those sudden stops.  ;-)  Oh ya, now I know why you shouldn’t eat too close to a run. BTW you never told use yours. Roger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Response:

Pikes Peak Marathon last year, the uphill portion! Lack of altitude training and running it for the first time made it a very memorably hard run! It was one of my marathons in which I asked myself why I’d run it, prayed to just finish it, but added bonuses during this marathon unlike others included minor headaches, being irritated at myself for who knows what, cursing at myself because I couldn’t jog/walk faster (LOL), long alternate jog/walks, and a beautiful rest stop (a wonderful couple of minutes before I hit the downhill portion) once I reached the top to refuel with the help of some wonderful staff! Sorry, I have to add this too, the Run on the Banks Stairclimb last year and my first time also where I ran up 84 stories total, in 2 buildings. Luckily, we had 30 min. breaks (I think) between the run to rest up. I ran all out (felt lactic acid kick in and legs getting heavier but still kept going) until I reached the top and never ran so hard and felt so bad. My throat was dry/hurting, had headache, and was breathing heavily each time I reached the top. The shortest distance but the most painful run I’d ever had! It’s good to have some challenge and unbearable pain for a while, as long as it’s gone after the run. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Response:

Western States this year was a hard one.  To read a little about it, go to: http://home.earthlink.net/~jtwhalen/todd.html It was not written by me so may be a little more accurate than my descriptions. (printed without permission) I’m convinced (as is his mother, who knows him pretty well) that Todd will make another attempt at this race.  He needs to figure out how not to have things come unraveled on him the next time.  I think the autopsy will be a great help! _______ Great story, Todd.  Thanks.  I enjoyed it.  Especially the part about crossing the Middle Fork American river. Mary

Response:

Well, it was one of my first workouts as a freshman in college.  I still felt I had something to prove and didn’t dare fall from the group. We ran a warm-up of 2.5 miles carrying our spikes to our grass mile course. Then we proceeded to do 6 mile repeats in just under 5 minutes a piece with just over a minute break in between. Then we ran the 2.5 miles back. I was dead, but I actually stayed with my group. -jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Response:

Wowwy, great job Todd!

(snip) Ahh, gee wiz.  (blush) Actually, I was very disappointed.  My knees gave out much earlier than I had hoped.  Now I have to try again for my original goal. Todd

Response:

What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =)

I was running a 10k as part of a triathlon.  It was only my 3rd race since starting back running, and I had taken some anti-inflammatory pills prior to the race, as well as on the morning of the race.  The course was 3 laps of an out and back course.  The race was in Wellington (New Zealand) and anyone that has landed at Wellington airport will know that the wind tends to blow there, and the day of the race was no exception.  So, for various reasons I was anaerobic after the first few km and feeling damn awful.  Because of the course, I saw my teammates several times during the run, which made my "t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on" feeling that a much more unpleasant experience. Andy  "swimming and biking cause my ITB hasn’t improved…yet"

Response:

Not something I _had_ to finish, but definitely the hardest time I ever had running. I had competed in cross country and the 2 mile in high school (small school, so I was competitive in my league, but that’s about it). Spent my freshman year in college essentially being a couch potato. Over spring break, borrowed a friend’s bike and tried to ride from Golden, Co., to Boulder. (This is about 25 miles of up and down, then a long flat section as you go by the Rocky Flats weapons site, then a loooong downhill into Boulder.) I made it half way across the flats, then turned around. The next day I compounded my stupidity by riding about ten miles (moderate downhill) toward Denver and back. Got back, and decided to do some track work. Started out fine, but the speed vanished quite quickly. In the last straight, I was working my butt off, and barely moving. Final insult – climbing the stairs to my third floor dorm room. Rich Lemert – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Response:

My second 50 mile trail race where I was determined to get a specific time in order to prove to myself that I was fast enough to have a chance to finish Western States. It was the first hot day of the year (90+ with previous highs of low 70s) and nobody was acclimated. The race was in the high desert with a fine, almost grit like trail surface. I tore the skin off the balls of both feet by mile 30 and ran the last 20 miles in sheer agony but did get my goal time. What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

– Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS* Trails of The Diablo Valley           *Running – Hiking – Nature*             http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/6016/

Response:

That has to be one of the toughest questions I’ve read on this ng.  Only one?  How about one for each year I’ve been running?  :-)  Or the hardest run this year?  I’ve had too many "hardest" runs to pick one. Western States this year was a hard one.  To read a little about it, go to: http://home.earthlink.net/~jtwhalen/todd.html It was not written by me so may be a little more accurate than my descriptions. Todd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Response:

Actually, the hard run I ever did was running a "stair race" … one thing I learned, you can’t rest "going up" … But, once did a set of about 32 x 200 at about :32 with 200 jog … seemed to take forever.  Roy

Response:

California International Marathon. Much harder than any ultra I’ve run, and harder than an 18-minute 5K when I was inadequately trained. The culprit? Gatorade (or "Gatorbarf," as Ann Trason calls it). For a high percentage of runners, Gatorbarf (and other fructose-containing "race drinks") delays stomach emptying, at least partly accounting for the feeling, which comes on at around 18 miles, that there’s a bowling ball  in your stomach. Energy gone. Running on fumes. Death march. Survival by will power.

I’ve heard that about Gatorade. As I understand, it has to do with the level of carbohydrates in the drink. Right? The more carbohydrates in the drink, the slower the absorption…or something like that. C

Response:

In 1990 St. Patrick’s day was on a Saturday. A bunch of my running friends decided to pop on over to the local Irish Pub and celebrate a bit after our morning run. One of my buddies was reminded he had a wedding to go to in the evening and he promised to be home no later than 2pm. Well I’m outside the bar puking my guts out at 5:30 and we decided it was time to leave. The next day…. Was my first 20 miler for the upcoming Boston Marathon. I was fine up to 15 when the carbo loading and subsequent unloading from the day before caught up to me. I remember walking a few times but most of all the struggle to put one foot in front of the other. The final 3 miles was a series of 3 hills that were killer. But what I time I had at the bar. Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Response:

What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

The Dipsea in Northern California last month.  I had eaten something bad the day before, giving me the runs all morning.  It was a gorgeous day, which meant it was hot and dry, and I was dehydrated and with no energy.  Plus, I fell in the last mile, bruising a few bones and getting pretty well scraped up in the process. I finished about 20 minutes behind where I wanted to. The good thing about it? It was a steep trail run, so a certain person on this newsgroup wasn’t there. -Robb — Delete "spamfilter." to reply.

Response:

Old Kent River Bank Run (25k) in 1991.  REALLY tired, with about two miles to go.  Knew I had to bust it to make my goal time.  All I thought about was "stay relaxed, and run as hard as you can".  Made my goal time by 4 seconds–never been prouder of anything I ever did.  Crossed the finish line completely spent and yakking. dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Response:

What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Last year’s marathon leg of the Great Floridian (Ironman). I got sick 40 miles into the bike and stayed sick the rest of the way. Cramps, the "runs", nausea. Lots of fun. Then, after dark it dropped down into the 40’s with a steady wind. I just gutted it out, kept moving and finished the damn thing. Mentally it was very tough, because I really didn’t have anything to "prove" by finishing because I’d already done one in ‘98. There were lots of demons on the side of the road, offering an easy chair to sit in and stop. It was a thoroughly miserable 17 hours. Mike "But, yes. I’ll be back this year" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 17:13:38

Response:

Mike said: There were lots of demons on the side of the road, offering an easy chair to sit in and stop.

~~~~~~~ Nicely put. Mary

Response:

The hardest and the best for me Jacksonville marathon in ‘95, was going for Boston qualification at 3:10.  Was on pace the whole way, the last six miles I ran on adrenaline and determination while my legs felt like toothpicks with lead weights attached. But the time…3:09.12.  Thats’s one of the few races where I was able to use all reserves and guts and everything to make it to the finish line.  Sadly, didn’t go to Boston as I temporarily quit running a few months later… Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

My first marathon: Marine Corps in ‘91. I had run a 20-mile training run, and thought how EASY it would be to finish that last, measly 10K. Of course, I started out too fast, and by mile 23-24 I was dead. I walked/jogged/limped in from there, but I was determined to finish. Several people asked me if I was OK as they went by, but the scariest part was when one of the Marines (around mile 25) asked: "Sir, do you need to see a medic?" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Response:

My first marathon: Marine Corps in ‘91. I had run a 20-mile training run, and thought how EASY it would be to finish that last, measly 10K. Of course, I started out too fast, and by mile 23-24 I was dead. I walked/jogged/limped in from there, but I was determined to finish. Several people asked me if I was OK as they went by, but the scariest part was when one of the Marines (around mile 25) asked: "Sir, do you need to see a medic?"

My worst was Las Vegas, 1995.  The LV Marathon is held in February so having traveled from Ohio I was not used to the warm weather (I think it finished at +80 degrees).  I did fine through the half marathon and then hit the downhills.  The sirens called and I regretfully listened and ripped the next 6 miles down hill.  By the 20 mile mark it turned into a death march.  I have a personal goal that I let no one pass me in the last mile.  Now I don’t trip them or hit them or crowd them or anything.  Anyway at mile 25 a middle aged fellow comes up on me pretty fast and the race is on.  I think I was at an 8:15 pace by then and instantly it went to 7:00 min. We went side by side and I swear I thought I would die.  I could tell he was redlining but he was holding the pace just fine.  I thought if I could just get to the last 50 yards I could outsprint him but he turned it up with 200 yards left.  I thought "you bastard", you’re gonna take my kick away.  Anyway, I stayed with him and gunned him at the end.  He was a larger guy and couldn’t stop at the finish and ended up knocking some people over.  I got sicker than a pig by pulling this stunt and started to pass out.  Some workers helped me and I ended up throwing up on a medic. Anyway, the guy came over after a while and said "nice race" and I told him he had run a nice race and we chatted.  I felt so bad for the rest of the day. As an aside, it is nice to run a warm weather February marathon because the training and the running the actually helps in getting one in shape for the Spring stuff. David Olsen "What’s up the singing Elvis’ on a marathon course anyway."

Response:

Definitely the Sound to Narrows 12k in Tacoma, WA this year.  It’s the longest race I’ve ran, it’s hilly, plus I was out of shape from taking a few weeks off after track season ended.  Around mile 6 I caught myself thinking really violent thoughts ("Oh, pass me on the hill will you?  I’ll tear your leg off and beat you over the head with it after the race!").  I think it was the exhaustion talking.  Everything felt good once I finished, though, and I beat my goal of finishing in under 60 min. — Ryan I’m usually a really nice person, honestly!

Response:

Erica, Mine was also a 5K back in March – done just 4 days after donating a pint of blood.  I went out WAY too fast (7:30 for first mile, which is pretty much sprinting for me), and didn’t drink enough water before hand.  Last mile I thought I was going to die, this was reflected in my split which was over nine minutes for the last mile + tenth.  This 5K was honestly harder than either marathon I have done. Hope to never repeat this!  I’ll take a long slow run over a shorter fast one anyday! Linda Before you buy.

Response:

Actually, mine was just a 5K, but after about 1.5 miles, let’s just say nature was calling.  Loudly. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

California International Marathon. Much harder than any ultra I’ve run, and harder than an 18-minute 5K when I was inadequately trained. The culprit? Gatorade (or "Gatorbarf," as Ann Trason calls it). For a high percentage of runners, Gatorbarf (and other fructose-containing "race drinks") delays stomach emptying, at least partly accounting for the feeling, which comes on at around 18 miles, that there’s a bowling ball  in your stomach. Energy gone. Running on fumes. Death march. Survival by will power. What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

– George Beinhorn Marketing Copywriting & Editorial Services http://fpage1.ba.best.com/~trail/services01/

Response:

What was the absolute *hardest* run you HAD to get through? Were you sick and kept t-r-e-k-k-i-n-g on? Were you fatigued and had to just finish that marathon? Basically, what’s the one run that stands out in your mind as being the hardest? Can’t wait to hear some responses! =) -Erica =)

Response:

Question:

Since I updated the program with Y2K disks sent by peachtree, I am having all kinds of error messages. Is there some forum, which would help me understand the error codes etc. for Peachtree, so that I can straighten out my accounts. I will appreciate any help as Peachtree is hard to reach. Best regards, Gulab Gidwani

Response:

Try "alt.comp.software.financial.peachtree". Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since I updated the program with Y2K disks sent by peachtree, I am having all kinds of error messages. Is there some forum, which would help me understand the error codes etc. for Peachtree, so that I can straighten out my accounts. I will appreciate any help as Peachtree is hard to reach. Best regards, Gulab Gidwani

Response:

Sorry, but that group is not available on my server and I don’t know of any Peachtree group at all. I have ver 3.5 batch 5 which is supposed to be Y2K compliant, but as yet, I have no idea how to get the 2000 payroll tax codes modified to work. Peachtree doesn’t even support it in their Tax Service 2000 scam. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try "alt.comp.software.financial.peachtree". Julie Since I updated the program with Y2K disks sent by peachtree, I am having all kinds of error messages. Is there some forum, which would help me understand the error codes etc. for Peachtree, so that I can straighten out my accounts. I will appreciate any help as Peachtree is hard to reach. Best regards, Gulab Gidwani

– … what? You mean this isn’t a dress rehearsal? "So long, and thanks for all the fish." — last dolphin leaving planet.

Response:

Question:

And why don’t YOU let me know when you are going to post so I can stay off this newsgroup! Asshole! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me know when you fly your piece of shit planes so I can stay away from your airspace. Ken

Response:

James- Ross – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For starters, the exhaust pressure test (you will do this one won’t you, its required!) We do a thorough exhaust inspection every 50 hours, per the recurring AD (you do this, don’t you?  It’s required!) Or do you just do yours every annual inspection? Don’t forget the pressure test to check for cylinder head cracks.  Yep, had a little one there too but the manufacturer paid for that one notwithstanding the additional down time. We do this about twice per year anyway, once at annual and then once 1/2 through the year.  We had it done during our prepurchase inspection 6 months ago. Next, of course as most T-310R owners will knowingly chuckle, was the Janitrol heater.  Yup, tiny little problem meant replacement of the heater.  More big bucks. Our T-310R doesn’t have the Janitrol heater.  We have the Southwind heater.  I had some problems with it this winter, but we think we have that fixed now. While rummaging around the nose the A&P noticed it was time for the 02 bottle recertification.  Decided to replace the steel bottle with one of the new fiberglass ones which don’t require the recurrent hydrostatis test. Yep, more dollars. Ours is due for a hydrostat test this annual.  I wouldn’t think this would be NEARLY has hard as on my T210. Then of course, (I am sure your weekend A&P will properly swing the gear) was the gear test. Man, where do you get off being so high and mighty!  You sound like you think you have the best maintained airplane around.  Based on your posting, I kind of doubt that.  First off, we have a large brick heated hanger with more tools than the snapon man. It is connected to our offices.  My Dad retired a couple of years ago since he didn’t like to fish or play golf, he came to work for me and takes care of the airplane.  It is wiped down after every single flight and washed once per week.  There is absolutely NO grease or oil running down the gear legs or the underside of the wings.  You could eat off the shop floor. The tools are all lined up in perfect rows in his toolbox.  Each toolbox drawer is labeled.  Looks like a NASCAR garage.  The shop that does our work is the second largest on a big GA field. But of course, the A&P coming to your hangar will have everything with him/her to check just these very things.  Maybe a tune up isn’t required on an annual but doesn’t it make sense to do it while all the cowls are open. You are so full of shit.  Who do you think you are!  If you were such a hot shit, you should be flying a Lear 45 or something.  Or can’t you afford it? The A&P comes to our hangerbecause it is probably the best equipped one on the airport, outside their own.  By coming to our place (which is all of 200 yards from their hanger) they can keep shop space open at their location.  After completing the airframe inspection at our immaculate shop, they will pull the airplane to their shop for the gear test and engine inspections. And finally, I’ll just bet my last dollar that your A&P will get into the airframe and check the wing spars.  Sure he will!  Trust me! I would take that bet, but you probably don’t have any money left because you spent it all on that piece of shit airplane someone unloaded on you.  I bet you didn’t even have a prepurchase done! I can’t believe some pompous bastard like you has the balls to get on a newsgroup and cut other people down.  You don’t even know what you are talking about and you have to start slamming people.  There are a LOT of people around that have immaculate airplanes.  There are a lot of people who DON’T have immaculate airplanes to fly.  Heck, some people are forced to rent!  That doesn’t make you better than all those people.  You prick. PS:  I’ll put the quality of my airplane and the care it is given up against yours anytime.  My Dad is damn proud of how he takes care of N248RS and I am proud of what he does. James Pratt

Response:

And others flamed back and forth. The pearls out of this include the statement about the gear.  Anyone working on one of these airplanes should have the Twin Cessna Flyer publication on rigging the gear.  Just swinging it each year is NOT enough.  The lever arms are pretty short, the forces high, and with a small amount of wear, bending, or misalignment the thing can be on its nose. I saw a 310 burn in a fierce fire, caused by the O2 tank in the nose failing.  Fortunately, it happened on the ground. So making sure the bottle is current on its cert and making sure the plumbing is in good shape is essential. I saw a 310 where the leading edge of the wing had blown off. It was started after sitting around for months–to do an annual of all things–and a small amount of fuel had leaked into the wing leading edge section.  Blam!! These are all reasons we do annuals.  310s should be looked at carefully. +Thru ether-K0QA; In ether-BE33 N33HP CFIAIME A&P; Twisted pair 1-970-898-3037 +Snail: c/o HP GPL MS73 3404 E Harmony, Ft Collins, CO 80525 Incoming:40 44.2N +105 33.1W; Pictures 970-898-4224  M3  bigot  ABS BPPP instructor

Response:

Boy, that Ken McLeod sure seems like a little bitch.  Check out his company’s crappy website at http://www.csgwireless.com.  I see the King Air (can’t afford a hangar?) but not the *Citation*. Sorry about posting in HTML but I can’t seem to get OE5 to include a hyperlink any other way.  Any ideas? Later Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good point.  He would also know how much fuel a King Air 90 holds (it doesn’t take a "grand" to fuel one!), he would understand the basic tax advantages of aircraft ownership, he would know that it makes no sense to upgrade the engines on a King Air 90.  He would know a lot of other things that come with being a pilot and a succesful business owner..but he doesn’t. He probably wouldn’t insult people he had never met…but he does. Mike MU-2 Thanks for the backup here.  I usually don’t like negative posts, I would rather encourage people to fly rather than scare them out of it with talk about the huge costs.  I don’t know this Ken guy, but he seems like a real egotistical wanker.  I wonder why he is cruising the newsgroups when he obviously is so rich (yea, right) that he can pay cash forKing Air’s, Citations and a T310R toy for his son.  I figured he would be jetting around the country spendin his billions rather than spend time with us mere mortals here on the net. James Pratt He’s probably some 15 year old high school kid with pimples! James Pratt

Response:

James,     I’m a low time pilot, high time lurker and few time poster.  I’m also an aircraft owner (on a salary, yet) and I want you to know that the postings by people like you, Jim Weir, Mike Rapoport, Snowbird, and several others allow people like me to increase our knowledge base much faster than we would be able to just hanging around the airport.  (Which I also do). You’ve probably saved people thousands of dollars by telling us your experiences and mistakes and kept us entertained with flying stories in between.  You’ve scared us silly, steered us straight, and made us say to ourselves, "that nearly what happened to me."  For every "Ken" out there, there are many, many appreciative pilots.  If I ever wonder what it’s like to own an MU2, C310, radial engine, fly acro, or experience any of a thousand aviation things, all I have to do is tune in right here.  So even if I can’t afford any of those,  I can still experience them through you fine people.  Don’t let "Ken" spoil it for us.  People like him are what news filters were designed for.  BTW James, if your dad ever needs something to keep him busy in retirement, he’s welcome to work on my plane, too.  I get to remove the covers and grease the wheel bearing though, OK.  Hey Ken! That’s the same airplane I trust my life too every time I fly it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks for the backup here.  I usually don’t like negative posts, I would rather encourage people to fly rather than scare them out of it with talk about the huge costs.  I don’t know this Ken guy, but he seems like a real egotistical wanker.  I wonder why he is cruising the newsgroups when he obviously is so rich (yea, right) that he can pay cash forKing Air’s, Citations and a T310R toy for his son.  I figured he would be jetting around the country spendin his billions rather than spend time with us mere mortals here on the net. James Pratt

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Good point.  He would also know how much fuel a King Air 90 holds (it doesn’t take a "grand" to fuel one!), he would understand the basic tax advantages of aircraft ownership, he would know that it makes no sense to upgrade the engines on a King Air 90.  He would know a lot of other things that come with being a pilot and a succesful business owner..but he doesn’t. He probably wouldn’t insult people he had never met…but he does. Mike MU-2 Thanks for the backup here.  I usually don’t like negative posts, I would rather encourage people to fly rather than scare them out of it with talk about the huge costs.  I don’t know this Ken guy, but he seems like a real egotistical wanker.  I wonder why he is cruising the newsgroups when he obviously is so rich (yea, right) that he can pay cash forKing Air’s, Citations and a T310R toy for his son.  I figured he would be jetting around the country spendin his billions rather than spend time with us mere mortals here on the net. James Pratt

He’s probably some 15 year old high school kid with pimples! James Pratt

Response:

Thanks for the backup here.  I usually don’t like negative posts, I would rather encourage people to fly rather than scare them out of it with talk about the huge costs.  I don’t know this Ken guy, but he seems like a real egotistical wanker.  I wonder why he is cruising the newsgroups when he obviously is so rich (yea, right) that he can pay cash forKing Air’s, Citations and a T310R toy for his son.  I figured he would be jetting around the country spendin his billions rather than spend time with us mere mortals here on the net. James Pratt

Response:

Good point.  He would also know how much fuel a King Air 90 holds (it doesn’t take a "grand" to fuel one!), he would understand the basic tax advantages of aircraft ownership, he would know that it makes no sense to upgrade the engines on a King Air 90.  He would know a lot of other things that come with being a pilot and a succesful business owner..but he doesn’t. He probably wouldn’t insult people he had never met…but he does. Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks for the backup here.  I usually don’t like negative posts, I would rather encourage people to fly rather than scare them out of it with talk about the huge costs.  I don’t know this Ken guy, but he seems like a real egotistical wanker.  I wonder why he is cruising the newsgroups when he obviously is so rich (yea, right) that he can pay cash forKing Air’s, Citations and a T310R toy for his son.  I figured he would be jetting around the country spendin his billions rather than spend time with us mere mortals here on the net. James Pratt

Response:

Actually, the bumps on my head from my wife are accomplishing the same thing Ken

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The last annual on my T-310R cost me $ 21,000.00. [tale of financial disaster/annual from hell snipped] maybe your chequebook is trying to tell you it’s time to move to something a little less maintenance intensive? —

Response:

You are so full of shit.  Who do you think you are!  If you were such a hot shit, you should be flying a Lear 45 or something.  Or can’t you afford

it? Here’s a little man suffering from small man syndrome.  Obviously upset about hitting a nerve.  As for the Lear 45, naw, I own a fully paid for Citation.  The T-310R is a toy for my son.  Grow up James, your either too stupid or too nervous to understand your own posts. I still have to wonder about all that maintanence done by your non-A&P old man.  IF he is so good why doesn’t he get a proper mechanical license.  Is that why you call the A&P to the hangar?  Or is it you are too poor to afford real maintenance.  There are plenty of clean planes that shouldn’t be in the air.  Is yours one of those? Let me know when you fly your piece of shit planes so I can stay away from your airspace. Ken

Response:

Do I sense an inflated ego here?  SURE, you have a citation.  In your dreams I bet.  Your head is so big you need 747 to hold it.  Why don’t you have one of those "paid for"??? James Pratt

Response:

Some people like MR. Ken here can’t seem to get on a newsgroup without cutting people down and telling us all about his CITATION and KING AIR!  He tries to brag to everyone about how RICH he is.  Bullcrap. My purpose on this post is to give others some insight on my twin annual. I want more people to own airplanes, not less.  I am afraid some people who don’t have airplanes are being scared from ownership by people claiming huge annual costs.  I know I was told all kinds of horror stories by others who didn’t own planes, but would tell me how expensive they are.  Despite their warnings, I purchased a T210, flew it 900 hours and had a good experience.  It was not cheap, but it wasn’t pocketbook breaking expensive either.  I am finding the same thing with my twin. Since Mr. Ken cuts down people before knowing the story, I wanted to clarify things.  My Dad is NOT an old fart (in my younger days I beat the crap out of people for saying things like this), nor is he an A&P.  He and I do everything legally allowed on the airplane, but we call the shop over to do the stuff we are not allowed to do.  However, we do take off inspection panels and get everything ready for the A&P.  My Dad and I have been very close since I was born and we are just happy that we can work togethre since he retired.  My 12 year old son now comes up during the summer and helps out also.  We have a great time.  Most people don’t fly CITATIONs and KING AIRs, or if they do, they don’t participate in this newsgroup. I participate in this newsgroup to make friends and help others out.  Mr. Ken participates so he can cut others down and brag about his big airplanes and how much money he spends on annuals.  Go find another newsgroup.  Like my mom says, if you can’t say something nice about someone, just keep your mouth SHUT! James Pratt

Response:

Ken, as for little man syndrome, you seem to be the sufferer.  You rarely post without somehow incorporating a boast or ten.  I have no problem with this, but you should make your claims consistent over time.  You claim to be a successful entrepreneur, yet your grasp of accounting (in one of your posts on the tax benefits of owning a plane) is so poor that it is near impossible to believe that you have been in business long or had much success.  The King Air 90 that you claim to own, and to have put a tremendous amount of money into, doesn’t even have a standard airworthiness certificate to say nothing of the advisability of upgrading that old goat in the first place.  You initially claimed to have thousands of hours (over 7000 I recall), now you claim to have hired a pilot.  You made claims about the insurance requirements to get insurance for the King Air which were greatly in excess of what is required to insure that plane.  Your discussions of ADs, SBs and Part 135 don’t make you sound like a 7000hr pilot either. There may be some young people on the NG who fall for this bullshit, but they are few.  Many of us would appreciate it if you would tone it down a little. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are so full of shit.  Who do you think you are!  If you were such a hot shit, you should be flying a Lear 45 or something.  Or can’t you afford it? Here’s a little man suffering from small man syndrome.  Obviously upset about hitting a nerve.  As for the Lear 45, naw, I own a fully paid for Citation.  The T-310R is a toy for my son.  Grow up James, your either too stupid or too nervous to understand your own posts. I still have to wonder about all that maintanence done by your non-A&P old man.  IF he is so good why doesn’t he get a proper mechanical license.  Is that why you call the A&P to the hangar?  Or is it you are too poor to afford real maintenance.  There are plenty of clean planes that shouldn’t be in the air.  Is yours one of those? Let me know when you fly your piece of shit planes so I can stay away from your airspace. Ken

Response:

Nawwwwww,  the last words really are…. Oh shit……. I just had an annual……This can’t be happening! Followed by the sound of crumpling metal and a really hot fire. Ken

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah….famous last words. — Kevin Moseley We really don’t expect anything major

Response:

The last annual on my T-310R cost me $ 21,000.00.

[tale of financial disaster/annual from hell snipped] maybe your chequebook is trying to tell you it’s time to move to something a little less maintenance intensive? —

Response:

For starters, the exhaust pressure test (you will do this one won’t you, its required!)

We do a thorough exhaust inspection every 50 hours, per the recurring AD (you do this, don’t you?  It’s required!) Or do you just do yours every annual inspection? Don’t forget the pressure test to check for cylinder head cracks.  Yep, had a little one there too but the manufacturer paid for that one notwithstanding the additional down time.

We do this about twice per year anyway, once at annual and then once 1/2 through the year.  We had it done during our prepurchase inspection 6 months ago. Next, of course as most T-310R owners will knowingly chuckle, was the Janitrol heater.  Yup, tiny little problem meant replacement of the heater.  More big bucks.

Our T-310R doesn’t have the Janitrol heater.  We have the Southwind heater.  I had some problems with it this winter, but we think we have that fixed now. While rummaging around the nose the A&P noticed it was time for the 02 bottle recertification.  Decided to replace the steel bottle with one of the new fiberglass ones which don’t require the recurrent hydrostatis test. Yep, more dollars.

Ours is due for a hydrostat test this annual.  I wouldn’t think this would be NEARLY has hard as on my T210. Then of course, (I am sure your weekend A&P will properly swing the gear) was the gear test.

Man, where do you get off being so high and mighty!  You sound like you think you have the best maintained airplane around.  Based on your posting, I kind of doubt that.  First off, we have a large brick heated hanger with more tools than the snapon man. It is connected to our offices.  My Dad retired a couple of years ago since he didn’t like to fish or play golf, he came to work for me and takes care of the airplane.  It is wiped down after every single flight and washed once per week.  There is absolutely NO grease or oil running down the gear legs or the underside of the wings.  You could eat off the shop floor. The tools are all lined up in perfect rows in his toolbox.  Each toolbox drawer is labeled.  Looks like a NASCAR garage.  The shop that does our work is the second largest on a big GA field. But of course, the A&P coming to your hangar will have everything with him/her to check just these very things.  Maybe a tune up isn’t required on an annual but doesn’t it make sense to do it while all the cowls are open.

You are so full of shit.  Who do you think you are!  If you were such a hot shit, you should be flying a Lear 45 or something.  Or can’t you afford it? The A&P comes to our hangerbecause it is probably the best equipped one on the airport, outside their own.  By coming to our place (which is all of 200 yards from their hanger) they can keep shop space open at their location.  After completing the airframe inspection at our immaculate shop, they will pull the airplane to their shop for the gear test and engine inspections. And finally, I’ll just bet my last dollar that your A&P will get into the airframe and check the wing spars.  Sure he will!  Trust me!

I would take that bet, but you probably don’t have any money left because you spent it all on that piece of shit airplane someone unloaded on you.  I bet you didn’t even have a prepurchase done! I can’t believe some pompous bastard like you has the balls to get on a newsgroup and cut other people down.  You don’t even know what you are talking about and you have to start slamming people.  There are a LOT of people around that have immaculate airplanes.  There are a lot of people who DON’T have immaculate airplanes to fly.  Heck, some people are forced to rent!  That doesn’t make you better than all those people.  You prick. PS:  I’ll put the quality of my airplane and the care it is given up against yours anytime.  My Dad is damn proud of how he takes care of N248RS and I am proud of what he does. James Pratt

Response:

My 310 goes in for it’s first annual since I purchased it at the end of the week.  I will be taking a business trip through west Texas on Tuesday and Wednesday.  On Thursday my dad (who retired and now works for me, mostly taking care of the airplane) will strip the interior and inspection plates in our hanger.  Friday the A&P will come over and start the inspection.  I will be out of town with my son to a baseball tournament until the following Monday, so I will report back then.  We really don’t expect anything major, since we have fixed all small problems as they arise. James Pratt

Response:

Ah….famous last words. — Kevin Moseley

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We really don’t expect anything major

Response:

Hmmm, without even seeing the plane I can probably make money betting against things going smoothly… As Mr. Rogers would say, with a smile, can you say, "trunions and saddles, children… Can you spell, "heater" or "turbo"… And how about, "the most sweeping AD involving wing spars ever to be announced by the FAA""… Now, having had a bit of fun making my point, I’m hoping for you, James… Denny

Response:

Hmmmmmmmm,  The last annual on my T-310R (also had everything fixed as it came up) cost me $ 21,000.00. For starters, the exhaust pressure test (you will do this one won’t you, its required!)  found some pinhole leaks which required a major exhaust replacement.  Big bucks there. Don’t do this one and you may have an in-flight fire.  Nope, no lack of maintenance here.  It was an 18 month old Inconel system from front to back.  These things happen!  Which is exactly why the FAA is cooking up a really juicy AD about exhaust system repairs and replacements which just might ground every T-310. Don’t forget the pressure test to check for cylinder head cracks.  Yep, had a little one there too but the manufacturer paid for that one notwithstanding the additional down time. Next, of course as most T-310R owners will knowingly chuckle, was the Janitrol heater.  Yup, tiny little problem meant replacement of the heater.  More big bucks. While rummaging around the nose the A&P noticed it was time for the 02 bottle recertification.  Decided to replace the steel bottle with one of the new fiberglass ones which don’t require the recurrent hydrostatis test. Yep, more dollars. Then of course, (I am sure your weekend A&P will properly swing the gear) was the gear test.  While checking the gear the ever vigilent A&P found some really small cracks in a couple of the spars.  There is a detailed Cessna service bulletin concerning these little teeny cracks.  Little teeny cracks is Sanscrit for "More big bucks."  Ignore them and side loads can cause big cracks which means: Really big bucks to cover the gear up landing. All this on a T-310R with less than 3000 total time and a factory new motor.  Ooooopppppppps, forgot to mention the cost of tuning the motors and verifying manifold equalization, etc, blah, blah, blah.  But of course, the A&P coming to your hangar will have everything with him/her to check just these very things.  Maybe a tune up isn’t required on an annual but doesn’t it make sense to do it while all the cowls are open. Are you going to do the pitot/static tests.  Maybe the transponder or elt battery checks, etc.  Little bucks if there are no problems.  But, those crappy hoses Cessna installs under the seats to the static ports in the tail are terrible for cracking.  I was amazed at all the little weeps which cause, you guessed it: More big bucks. And finally, I’ll just bet my last dollar that your A&P will get into the airframe and check the wing spars.  Sure he will!  Trust me! Adios Ken

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My 310 goes in for it’s first annual since I purchased it at the end of the week.  I will be taking a business trip through west Texas on Tuesday and Wednesday.  On Thursday my dad (who retired and now works for me, mostly taking care of the airplane) will strip the interior and inspection plates in our hanger.  Friday the A&P will come over and start the inspection.  I will be out of town with my son to a baseball tournament until the following Monday, so I will report back then.  We really don’t expect anything major, since we have fixed all small problems as they arise. James Pratt

Response:

Question:

You’d rather live in the Balkans, of Somalia?  Fool.

                    Hey,  he’s *your* president, dude.

Response:

 Never mind that Clinton’s supposed budget surplus was manufactured by diverting Social Security funds.  Never mind that the surplus has now been dropped on Kosovo.

People are getting murdered in gross lots in the Balkans.  We’re trying to stop it, and you’re concerned about accounting errors.  You wouldn’t be conservative, would you? Jerry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (snip)   The real scale of the problem is far, FAR worse, and it has cost you, the individual reading this post, 12,781.95. Michael, they rip me off for that amount every damn year.   You just think about that when you sign that 1040. I pay, so that they won’t kill me.   I don’t see how I can defend against a squad of black-suited X-Gen males with H&K sub-machineguns.   I’m a realist. But also, this knowledge makes me secretly not care if America dies.

You’d rather live in the Balkans, of Somalia?  Fool. Jerry

Response:

:   Never mind that Clinton’s supposed budget surplus was : manufactured by diverting Social Security funds. … while everyone the past 30 years, including Clinton, covered up their deficits by the same borrowing scheme. :   Never mind that the surplus has now been dropped on Kosovo. Last year’s federal surplus was $70 Billion, which would fund 35 years worth of Balkan war.  And there’s another $70 Billion expected this USG fiscal year. Don’t forget the money needed to convert nuclear cruise missiles into conventional ones before the ALCM stocks run out completely.  The Tomahawk production line has only been down for one quarter, that needs to re$tart. — Gary L. Dare Ripco, Chicago’s Oldest Online Information Service

Response:

(snip)   The real scale of the problem is far, FAR worse, and it has cost you, the individual reading this post, 12,781.95.

Michael, they rip me off for that amount every damn year.   You just think about that when you sign that 1040.

I pay, so that they won’t kill me.   I don’t see how I can defend against a squad of black-suited X-Gen males with H&K sub-machineguns.   I’m a realist. But also, this knowledge makes me secretly not care if America dies.

Response:

I pay, so that they won’t kill me.   I don’t see how I can defend against a squad of black-suited X-Gen males with H&K sub-machineguns.   I’m a realist.

                    Heck, chum, with an attitude like this,                     they might just kill you anyway and take                     *all* the cash.                     Kosovo, part II. But also, this knowledge makes me secretly not care if America dies.

                    It’s definitely Rome.  Once the middle class                     had been bankrupted, it hardly matter *who*                     was in charge anymore.  Heck, I don’t mind                     a Chinese president, at least I could believe                     *half* of what he sez.

Response:

  Never mind that Clinton’s supposed budget surplus was manufactured by diverting Social Security funds.

How exactly can one create a surplus by "diverting" funds from one account to another? If I take $2,000 out of savings and put it in checking, does that mean I earned $2,000 more?   Never mind that the surplus has now been dropped on Kosovo.

Well, that may be true. You got one right!   Never mind that two cabinet secretaries have been indicted for contempt of court over the mishandling of Native American money.

Yes, never mind it, as it’s irrelevant. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The real scale of the problem is far, FFAR worse, and it has cost you, the individual reading this post, 12,781.95.   That’s the amount of money you have been taxed that the government cannot account for. They don’t know where it went. Or if they do know, they are, like the aforesaid Cabinet members, are concealing that information.   Which means that wherever it DID go, it wasn’t for something to help you out or make your life any better.   Total tax money that the government cannot account for?   Hang on to your seats. It’s $3,400,000,000,000. Over three TRILLION dollars. More than half the National Debt.   Nobody knows where all that wealth went. Or more to the point, nobody is saying.   You paid that money. You paid it as part of your half of the bargain between the people and the government allowed to manage the business of the nation.   The government’s half of the bargain was that they would spend that money on the needs of the people and the nation.   But the government has broken that promise, to the tune of $3,400,000,000,000 collected from the public which has simply vanished without a trace.   One point eight trillion in cash vanished just last year.

You are such a fool. The cash did not vanish. The amount cited is so huge, it’s impossible to just lose it. You are a fool not to read closer. The article you cite says the government failed to state how it spent the money under standard accounting practices. That is hardly losing the money. We know who spent it and on what, just not to the detail the accounting profession expects. Your problem is that you make claims that are so big, they’re unbeleivable. And you buy all the bullshit that politicians like Fritz Hollings and Steve Horn throw at you. They’re expecting naive people like you to swallow it, and you’re playing right into their hands. You should stick to your little Native American money scandal, it’s more on your level. Mr. H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   So, when you sign that 1040 form (if you haven’t already), remember this. Some $$12,781.95 of the taxes you have paid to date did not buy you a better life, or a better government, or a better nation. It vanished from your pocket and all you got in return for that $12,781.95 was a larger public debt whose interest sucks yet more money out of you. Half of that interest would not even exist had the government  simply taken that $3,400,000,000,000 and applied it to the National Debt.   You just think about that when you sign that 1040. Washington Times http://www.washtimes.com/ From http://www.washtimes.com/news/news3.html#link $3,400,000,000,000 of taxpayers’ money is missing (EXCERPTS) By August Gribbin THE WASHINGTON TIMES EXCERPTS: "The U.S. government can’t balance its books and can’t properly explain how it spent $1.8 trillion last year or account for $1.6 trillion in such assets as parks, buildings, missile launchers, tanks and paper clips….That’s 1,800,000,000,000 in dollars and $1,600,000,000,000 worth of things — a grand total of $3,400,000,000,000….The upshot is that, "once again, billions of taxpayer dollars were lost to waste, fraud and mismanagement," says Rep. Steve Horn, California Republican….Mr. Horn, chairman of the House government reform and oversight subcommittee on government management, information and technology, gave that assessment yesterday as his subcommittee reviewed the government’s attempt to produce a Consolidated Financial Statement….It was the second time in U.S. history that the government has tried to comply with a 1994 law requiring it to account in a businesslike way for the revenues, expenditures and assets of the 24 Cabinet-level departments and agencies — a total of 70 agencies with some 2,000 components….And for the second time, the statement failed to meet accounting standards acceptable to the General Accounting Office, Congress’ investigative arm and the government’s official auditor….The accounting failure means the government doesn’t employ common business safeguards to know how much money actually has been wasted or stolen. — Mike & Claire – The Rancho Runnamukka http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/ Clinton doing cocaine in the White House? http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/POLITICS/cocaine.html

Response:

  Never mind that Clinton’s supposed budget surplus was manufactured by diverting Social Security funds.   Never mind that the surplus has now been dropped on Kosovo.   Never mind that two cabinet secretaries have been indicted for contempt of court over the mishandling of Native American money.   The real scale of the problem is far, FFAR worse, and it has cost you, the individual reading this post, 12,781.95.   That’s the amount of money you have been taxed that the government cannot account for. They don’t know where it went. Or if they do know, they are, like the aforesaid Cabinet members, are concealing that information.   Which means that wherever it DID go, it wasn’t for something to help you out or make your life any better.   Total tax money that the government cannot account for?   Hang on to your seats. It’s $3,400,000,000,000. Over three TRILLION dollars. More than half the National Debt.   Nobody knows where all that wealth went. Or more to the point, nobody is saying.   You paid that money. You paid it as part of your half of the bargain between the people and the government allowed to manage the business of the nation.   The government’s half of the bargain was that they would spend that money on the needs of the people and the nation.   But the government has broken that promise, to the tune of $3,400,000,000,000 collected from the public which has simply vanished without a trace.   One point eight trillion in cash vanished just last year.   So, when you sign that 1040 form (if you haven’t already), remember this. Some $$12,781.95 of the taxes you have paid to date did not buy you a better life, or a better government, or a better nation. It vanished from your pocket and all you got in return for that $12,781.95 was a larger public debt whose interest sucks yet more money out of you. Half of that interest would not even exist had the government  simply taken that $3,400,000,000,000 and applied it to the National Debt.   You just think about that when you sign that 1040. Washington Times http://www.washtimes.com/ From http://www.washtimes.com/news/news3.html#link $3,400,000,000,000 of taxpayers’ money is missing (EXCERPTS) By August Gribbin THE WASHINGTON TIMES EXCERPTS: "The U.S. government can’t balance its books and can’t properly explain how it spent $1.8 trillion last year or account for $1.6 trillion in such assets as parks, buildings, missile launchers, tanks and paper clips….That’s 1,800,000,000,000 in dollars and $1,600,000,000,000 worth of things — a grand total of $3,400,000,000,000….The upshot is that, "once again, billions of taxpayer dollars were lost to waste, fraud and mismanagement," says Rep. Steve Horn, California Republican….Mr. Horn, chairman of the House government reform and oversight subcommittee on government management, information and technology, gave that assessment yesterday as his subcommittee reviewed the government’s attempt to produce a Consolidated Financial Statement….It was the second time in U.S. history that the government has tried to comply with a 1994 law requiring it to account in a businesslike way for the revenues, expenditures and assets of the 24 Cabinet-level departments and agencies — a total of 70 agencies with some 2,000 components….And for the second time, the statement failed to meet accounting standards acceptable to the General Accounting Office, Congress’ investigative arm and the government’s official auditor….The accounting failure means the government doesn’t employ common business safeguards to know how much money actually has been wasted or stolen. — Mike & Claire – The Rancho Runnamukka http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/ Clinton doing cocaine in the White House? http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/POLITICS/cocaine.html

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Question:

I am an investigative reporter who is writing a story about Sunbeam during the Dunlap era.  I am looking for former employees of Sunbeam who would have knowledge of management practices at the time, particularly any form of financial and/or accounting irregularities during that period.  All replies will be kept confidential. Thanks, Michelle LaPage

Response:

Just a caution; I am neither a fromer Sunbeam employee nor attorney, nor have any connection.   Litigation about these issues IS underway.  Anyone who discloses anything about a former employer should be sure of the legal situation and may place themselves at risk.  For example, if you are aware that a felony has been or is about to be commited, you may be obligated to report it.  If not, you may be charged.  If you are a CPA, your state laws may prohibit you from discussing your employer’s issues.  Beyond that, anyone who acquires confidential information in the course of their employment is generally prohibited from or may be liable for releasing the information. No intent to disparage the poster’s interest. Wins

Response:

For example, if you are aware that a felony has been or is about to be commited, you may be obligated to report it.  If not, you may be charged.  If you are a CPA, your state laws may prohibit you from discussing your employer’s issues.

Additionally, if you are a CPA, knew of "problem" accounting issues and failed to inform the outside auditors, confessing to that at this point could put you in trouble with both the federal government and with your state licensing authority on that issue.  And, if you try to defend that by saying "well, I didn’t know if it was a problem" then you have the issue Wins raised of disclosing confidential information.

Response:

Question:

I would like to remove my SSN from FAA records,      and be issued a pilot license certificate with      a different number.  How can I do this? —  Brian Mork, 928-E Grenoble Dr., Lansing, MI 48917

Response:

I did this last April.   It is handled similar to a change of address.  I sent $2.00 and all the information on my current certificate (including a copy) to Airman Certificate Flight Standards Service Airmen Certification Branch, AFS-760 FAA, P.O. Box 25082 Oklahoma City, OK 73125 (405) 954-3261 There is a $2 processing fee for replacing lost certificates. Send a check or money order made payable to Federal Aviation Administration I asked for a new certificate without my SSN.  I received a letter from Harold K. Everett, Manager Flight Certification Branch with a temporary certificate and asking me to return my original.  I sent it in and got back a new certificate w/o my SSN. — David Abrams – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to remove my SSN from FAA records,     and be issued a pilot license certificate with     a different number.  How can I do this? — Brian Mork, 928-E Grenoble Dr., Lansing, MI 48917

Response:

I would like to remove my SSN from FAA records,      and be issued a pilot license certificate with      a different number.  How can I do this? —  Brian Mork, 928-E Grenoble Dr., Lansing, MI 48917

Brian, The following link will take you to the FAA’s MMAC (Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center) where you can get the address and phone number for "Airman Certification Branch", AFS-760.  I’ve changed mine and I think they will direct you as to how to do the same.  http://www.mmac.jccbi.gov/info.html — John Williams http://www.flash.net/~jwwda20 ICQ-UIN 3543301

Response:

I did this last April.   It is handled similar to a change of address.  I sent $2.00 and all the information on my current certificate (including a copy) to

If you have a FSDO in your city, the task is even simpler. Just hand in your old certificate, an application form and they will type you a new temporary certificate. A few weeks later you will get the permanent one in the mail. There is no fee involved. — Andrew Sarangan PP-ASEL-IA      http://lights.chtm.unm.edu/~sarangan/aviation/

Response:

I would like to remove my SSN from FAA records,     and be issued a pilot license certificate with     a different number.  How can I do this?

I believe that all you have to do is ask.  Now why did you give them your SSN number in the first place?   –Sylvain

Response:

I believe that all you have to do is ask.  Now why did you give them your SSN number in the first place?  

I’m not the original poster, but here’s an answer to that question. Because the application requires it.  Or at least, it requests it and does not even hint at the possibility that providing the information is optional.  Is it optional?  I know that non-government agencies can’t require it, but these are the feds that are asking. As for why it ended up on the certificate, in my case I wasn’t given the option.  I was so gleeful at having passed the checkride that the examiner had typed up the paperwork, with SSN, before I knew what he was doing.  He didn’t offer and I didn’t have the chance to request that a different number be used.                                 William LeFebvre                                 Group sys Consulting                                 +1 770 813 3224 —                                 William LeFebvre                                 Group sys Consulting                                 +1 770 813 3224

Response:

Now why did you give them your SSN number in the first place?   Because the application requires it.  Or at least, it requests it and does not even hint at the possibility that providing the information is optional.  Is it optional?  I know that non-government agencies

this is one of my pet peeves:  there is no such thing as an indiscreet question,  only indiscreet answers; answers to any question on any application form is optional (well,  may be not taxes stuff,  but this is a different matter when I applied for a Class-III here,  the lady at the desk gave the application form back to me saying that the SSN was required;  I gave it back to her saying NO.  and that was it.   happened to me a couple of other times in other circumstances (incredible the number of people who wants to know this darn number); be assertive! –Sylvain

Response:

Now why did you give them your SSN number in the first place? Because the application requires it.  Or at least, it requests it and does not even hint at the possibility that providing the information is optional.  Is it optional?  I know that non-government agencies

<snip when I applied for a Class-III here,  the lady at the desk gave the application form back to me saying that the SSN was required;  I gave it back to her saying NO.  and that was it.

I did the same thing, up to where she told me it was required. I didn’t argue though. The ticket was more important to me than the SSN, which can be found in dozens of other places. If I continue training and building ratings, I’m going to have no choice but to submit to a more serious invasion of privacy and comply with FAA drug testing, something I would NEVER accept otherwise. I’ve refused contracts with firms because they wanted *me*, the owner of the company, AND any employee who *might* work on a project, to agree to their drug testing policy. No way in hell. What happens if I return a positive for marijuana? I go to concerts and people around me smoke pot (I can’t stand the stuff myself). If I smoke pot in the Netherlands, I’ve broken NO law (as long as I don’t go flying under the influence, just as with alcohol). I can likewise use a variety of drugs legally in other countries. But my urine test would then cause me no end of problems. The US would not tolerate tourists from countries under Muslim law being fined/jailed for drinking alcohol in the US. How can the US allow me to be persecuted (or persecute me directly) for doing something in another country which, there, is perfectly legal? I don’t see even the US trying to do this to drivers — not even holders of Commercial Drivers Licenses (not yet, anyway). Why pilots? Cheers- m w grossmann P.S. Hold off on the flames, please. This is a serious question concerning privacy, not some troll-bait on the right to shoot up and fly.

Response:

I don’t see even the US trying to do this to drivers — not even holders of Commercial Drivers Licenses (not yet, anyway). Why pilots?

Any job I’ve had with my 500 ton ocean masters lisence, comercial pilots lisence, or class A CDL, has requred a D.O.T. drug screen test required by law. It’s been this way for nearly a decade now.  The companys are required to have a drug testing policy in place which includes a minimum of pre-employment test and random screening of (not possitive about this number) 50% of the employees annually.  Yeah it suck and is an invasion of privacy,  but the legislators onc again have thrown the constitution out the window for "the greater good". I’m waiting for mandatory testing of lawyers and politicians along with random breathalizer tests of legislators entering thier respective houses of congress.  Think it might happen?

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I’m waiting for mandatory testing of lawyers and politicians along with random breathalizer tests of legislators entering thier respective houses of congress. Think it might happen?

Hey, it’s hard enough getting them to follow existing laws, much less new ones!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now why did you give them your SSN number in the first place? Because the application requires it.  Or at least, it requests it and does not even hint at the possibility that providing the information is optional.  Is it optional?  I know that non-government agencies <snip when I applied for a Class-III here,  the lady at the desk gave the application form back to me saying that the SSN was required;  I gave it back to her saying NO.  and that was it. I did the same thing, up to where she told me it was required. I didn’t argue though. The ticket was more important to me than the SSN, which can be found in dozens of other places.

Last time I checked (about a year ago) the SSN was not required. Read the instruction sheet which comes with the form. Same thing for  pilot certificates. Jeff

Response:

waiting for mandatory testing of lawyers and politicians along with random breathalizer tests of legislators entering thier respective houses of congress.

        I support drug testing. I believe every public official should be given a shot of sodium pentathol and asked "Which laws have you broken this week?".                                         -Dana — Don’t use reply….. Above email address is invalid to defeat robot spammers! If replying by email, remove the exclamation points (!). Most politicians aren’t crooks, but the ones that are sure are making the other 10 percent look bad.

Response:

I don’t see even the US trying to do this to drivers — not even holders of Commercial Drivers Licenses (not yet, anyway). Why pilots? It’s been this way for nearly a decade now.  The companys are required to have a drug testing policy in place which includes a minimum of pre-employment test and random screening of (not possitive about this number) 50% of the employees annually.  Yeah it suck and is an invasion of privacy,  but the legislators once again have thrown the constitution out the window for "the greater good".

Even the greater good is very arguable — studies have been done which show no useful benefits to drug testing, while others show drug testing to be very effective.  Like studies regarding guns and crime, the results appear to depend on who pays for the study. However, interestingly enough, there is now an "eye test" which can detect intoxication and impairment based on the reaction of the eye to flashes of light.  This detects intoxication not just for alcohol, but for numerious other drugs as well (including Marijuana).  Now that we appear to have a viable test for intoxication, the so-called need for drug testing in its current, intrusive manner has been significantly weakened.  The argument always was "well, this is an invasion, but it is better than nothing and we don’t have anything like a breathalizer for these other substances."  Perhaps now the tide will turn toward a more rational approach, where people are tested for intoxication while on the job and their private lives are left just that — private. Then again, that may be far too na

Question:

I thought I heard the phone ringing but it was just saying: They have other methods of extracting money from you. The typical recruit will be a married man with children. When you attend the conference, the senior females in the group will offer something you can’t resist. This will be used as leverage to obtain money from you.

You mean CHEESE?????  OH     MY     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Finally. Some personality.

Response:

Failure to comply with our instructions will result in this group being the subject of a very large recursive cascade.

I suppose that might be mildly interesting (stiffled yawn) But if you want to generate some traffic you could always ask if it tax allowable — David York

Response:

Question:

At sixty bucks and 250 grams, are they worth it?

They give almost the same aero advantage of a disk ( some say better because of the convex shape, rather than flat as most disks), but still retain the soft ride of a spoked wheel. As for advantage per dollar, the only thing better is a clip on aero bar. Bruce Platt

Response:

               I have been using one of these for years and I can’t imagine why anyone would pay the high price of a "real" disc when the aero effect is the same or better. If i’m missing something someone please let me know.                                                                               Steve F.

Response:

              I have been using one of these for years and I can’t imagine why anyone would pay the high price of a "real" disc when the aero effect is the same or better. If i’m missing something someone please let me know.                                                                  

[Cwhere near a ture disk in performance. I personally use a cover of sorts. I use a J-Disc. Which I think is the ultimate comprimise, without comprimising anything. You see the major faults of a cover is the exposed lip (not all covers but the most popular [A) around the rim that can catch air, and the added weight. The J-Disc fixes both of these problems at a price about only $40 more than a wheel and cove. A J-Disc is a spoked wheel with a milar srink wraped cover., THe cover fits directly over the wheel, a light weight, very well built, easilt trueable, and extreamly high quality wheel with a ultra light cover on top. A 700c tubular wheel weighs about 700 grams (sans tire and freewheel) I ahve had one for 5 years, when I changed over to 8spd I just sent th e wheel back to the company to have it comnverted to 8spd for on;y $40... better than any bike shop(inc parts.). I also decided to have the wheel recoverd, because I have a new bike, and I also had ridden almost 1000 miles on the wheel in the last 5 years so it was getting kinda ragged (as would any cover) and I just had them recoverit, for $90 or so I can't really rember because I had a few other little goodies added to it. But all in ll I got a new wheel after 5 years for anly 150! can't beat that. or the  weight. As for other wheels if you have a couple hundred to spend on wheels go for the ft. wheel first... it hits the wind first, and offers the most time reduction. Zipp makes some really hot wheels the new midv is hot! ---arr---

Response:

: At sixty bucks and 250 grams, are : they worth it? : They give almost the same aero advantage of a disk ( some say better : because of the convex shape, rather than flat as most disks), but still Is there data for this? I haven’t seen any data on covers.  However, people that I trust have told me that they have pluses and minuses.  Many of them fail to seal adequately near the rim.  Air can get inside these covers, making a lovely noise and defeating much of the aero advantage.  I’ve also heard that covers which stretch fabric over the spokes lose much of the potential advantage because the surface is not smooth and because the individual panels, being flexible, can act like little sails in a crosswind. I don’t know how important these considerations are, but they seem reasonable to me. Dave LaPorte U. of Minn.

Response:

: I have seen in various mail-order catalogs (Nashbar, : Performance, Colorado, Excel) disc wheel covers.  They all : seem to be the same, but with different house brands on : them: they are all around sixty bucks, weight a bit less : than 250 grams, and clip onto wheels over the spokes (even : the blurb in the different catalogs is pretty much the : same; presumably one OEM makes them).  The idea is that : they turn your spoked wheel into (sort of) a disk wheel. : Has anyone tried these?  At sixty bucks and 250 grams, are : they worth it?  Are they more than cosmetic?  Thanks for : any advice. : Steve I purchased the UNI cover from Colorado Cyclist last summer, and it made a very noticable difference. The complaint of how well the cover seals against the rim can be avoided by using a regular box shaped rim, not an aero, and taking your time in fitting the hoop. I used it in only one race, a biathlon, and I passed 27 people in a 20 mile bike segment, plus was able to hammer in my top gear for a real long streach of road, something I never was able to do before the wheel cover. If your are on a budget (Who isn’t?) and already have a rim, get the cover. Tom Roehr

Response:

….Is there data for this?….

I believe bicycling ran a test on them and other aero devices a couple of years ago, check your back issues, my wife threw mine away, anyway  my cover seals pretty well and there is a noticable improvement over not using them, but  I guess thats why Baskin- Robbins makes 31 flavors. Bruce Platt

Response:

: At sixty bucks and 250 grams, are : they worth it? : They give almost the same aero advantage of a disk ( some say better : because of the convex shape, rather than flat as most disks), but still Is there data for this? I haven’t seen any data on covers.  However, people that I trust have told me that they have pluses and minuses….

At least in the early days of covers, I saw more than one or two that came unclipped during a race.  There sure isn’t much of an advantage when the now loose disc cover is rubbing against your brakes and stays Pat    W.Patrick Brug, Ph.D.  _-           -_    Los Alamos National Lab -__       __-                                       /    cis:      72410,3372        /  

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have seen in various mail-order catalogs (Nashbar, : Performance, Colorado, Excel) disc wheel covers.  They all : seem to be the same, but with different house brands on : them: they are all around sixty bucks, weight a bit less : than 250 grams, and clip onto wheels over the spokes (even : the blurb in the different catalogs is pretty much the : same; presumably one OEM makes them).  The idea is that : they turn your spoked wheel into (sort of) a disk wheel. : Has anyone tried these?  At sixty bucks and 250 grams, are : they worth it?  Are they more than cosmetic?  Thanks for : any advice. : Steve

I purchased a CH-AERO cover last Summer from Excel sports.  I believe Performance also now carries them.  The difference between this product and the Uni-Disc is the CH-AERO is a one piece thin plastic lens shaped cover.  To install you just remove your casette or freewheel and pop it on with 8 plastic screws.  The disc fits very snugly to the rim and air is further kept out by a small layer of foam.  It is quiet, looks like a "real" disc wheel, and fast.  The only drawback is weight.  It weighs approx 450gms so you dont want to race it on a hilly course.  The first time I used it on a mostly flat course I took off 2 minutes  on a 20K time trial. In short I highly recomend it.  If your thinking about adding a cover give it a look. Happy training, Mike

Response:

                         I’ve had my wheel cover,(Nashbar), installed constantly, for both training & racing for over 5 years with never a problem.                                                                                                Steve Fredericks

Response:

Before I would do that, I would get a JDF for my front wheel! Unfortunatly, my birthday isn’t until August…

I didn’t mention this before since we were talking about rear wheels, but the front wheel is moer imprtant than the rear to be aero. —arr—

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        I would just like to thank everyone who has sent me or posted a reply to ‘Uh, Vegetarian?’ in the last week.  I have recieved a lot of useful information, and I have been putting it to good use.  I have subscribed to rst for about 2 months now, and all the sage advice that a beginning triathlete like me can use is ever so helpful!         Basically I just want to thank all the people who have helped me grow mentally by hooking me up with Tri-info.  Special thanks goes to Mr. Marty Miller, for initially helping me out with my many, many questions and teaching me how to enjoy running.  Thanks, Marty!  There are several others users who have helped me (too numerouse to name) and I really appreciate it.   Scott Wilson

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I purchased a CH-AERO cover last Summer from Excel sports.  I believe Performance also now carries them.  The difference between this product and the Uni-Disc is the CH-AERO is a one piece thin plastic lens shaped cover.  To install you just remove your casette or freewheel and pop it on with 8 plastic screws.  The disc fits very snugly to the rim and air is further kept out by a small layer of foam.  It is quiet, looks like a "real" disc wheel, and fast.  The only drawback is weight.  It weighs approx 450gms so you dont want to race it on a hilly course.  The first time I used it on a mostly flat course I took off 2 minutes  on a 20K time trial. In short I highly recomend it.  If your thinking about adding a cover give it a look. Happy training, Mike

Re Soft Disc Wheel Covers…. I was very skeptical about disc wheel covers, and began my own testing on a flat, out-and-back 10 mile time trial course that is used between May and September.  I rode with and without the cover, switching every other week for at least 5 times each.  After accounting for wind conditions, biking when it was 103 degrees one day, etc, I found out that the disc wheel did reduce my time by about 30 seconds (my ave. 24.5 – 25.5 mph). A friend who had used one for a few years (who is a faster rider) thought he also rode 30 seconds faster with the disc wheel on the 10 mile course. If I were able to ride at 30 mph, I imagine the wheel would benefit me even more (since air resistance increases exponentially with increase in speed).  However, I think changing my posture to ride in a more aerodynamic position probably helps more than using the disc wheel.   Also, aero bars easily give a 1.5 mph increase in speed.   Any other experiences out there?  I’m interested in knowing.  Supposedly some of the initial "testing" of disc wheels was done at our university (WSU) and WSUs name was used in many "old" ads out there.

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If I were able to ride at 30 mph, I imagine the wheel would benefit me even more (since air resistance increases exponentially with increase in speed).  However, I think changing my posture to ride in a more aerodynamic position probably helps more than using the disc wheel.   Also, aero bars easily give a 1.5 mph increase in speed.  

[Aship between speed and drag of an object is directly propotional to the square of an objects speed. So at 30mph the benifates of an aerobar is roughly 1.5 times thatt of a rider doing 25mph. However, at very high speeds (such as decents) I have found the  covers tend to flap quite a bit and offered more drag than that of a more converntional wheel. I still contend that there are very few covers out there that can offer good, sound, sfe aerodyanics. Of the removable ones I would only considre using a lighte [CI ahve explaned what there are in previos messages) ---arr---

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I were able to ride at 30 mph, I imagine the wheel would benefit me even more (since air resistance increases exponentially with increase in speed).  However, I think changing my posture to ride in a more aerodynamic position probably helps more than using the disc wheel.   Also, aero bars easily give a 1.5 mph increase in speed.   [Aship between speed and drag of an object is directly propotional to the square of an objects speed. So at 30mph the benifates of an aerobar is roughly 1.5 times thatt of a rider doing 25mph. However, at very high speeds (such as decents) I have found the covers tend to flap quite a bit and offered more drag than that of a more converntional wheel. I still contend that there are very few covers out there that can offer good, sound, sfe aerodyanics. Of the removable ones I would only considre using a lighte [CI ahve explaned what there are in previos messages)

The drag is proportional to the square of the speed, the power is the speed times the drag.  So the power is proportional to the cube of the speed (assuming aero drag is the only significant force: reasonable at 30 mph, less reasonable at 25mph, fairly far off at 20mph).  In a flat TT, it is reasonable to assume constant rider power. However, let’s look at what that means to your speed (what else matters after all?). cd * speed^3 = power cd = coefficient of drag, ^ means raised to the power of Or speed = (power/cd) ^0.333333 Now suppose we change cd by some small factor delta, so that the new cd is cdp = cd *(1-delta) ie, if you reduce the overall cd (including the riders body and everything) by 5%, delta = 0.05. you will find that the following approximation is pretty accurate: speedp ~= speed * (1+delta/3) That is, our 5% reduction of cd gives a 1.67% increase in speed, regardless of the actual value of that speed. Now what affect does our approximation that all of the drag comes from aerodynamics have on the speed improvement? In this case, there are additional drag terms, using lower powers of speed (usually linear) that do not change when you change your aerodynamics.  The affect of this is that you will get a smaller speed improvement than the hoped for delta/3. — — S’later, Mike Locke

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