- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing the responsibility chain concerns after Enron, I have some questions about where I work. I work at an engineering company which performs services for a variety of international chemical/refinery companies. We have a program with one of our clients where we provide services to a large group of sites across the country. Our client corporate headquarters requires us to bill all our time to specific production sites and projects within those sights. We have activities that actually benefit groups of projects within a site and other sites. But we are required to bill this time to specific projects that we have to choose. I have a couple of questions and I am open to any additional comments: 1) This is ovbiously poor accounting practice as it does not truely capture value we bring across our client’s sites. Is there a specific term for this? 2) In light of the Enron actions, is there a potential problem here? 3) If there is a problem, what can I do to help resolve it and how can I protect myself. Rick
I spent nearly 30 years w/a large ($1B/yr revenues) engineering consulting firm for both government and private clients. Owing to the government work, we were required to follow DCAA rules regarding division of costs for all work, including commercial. Within this, if you simply divide your time as equitably as you can across the jobs/sites of which you are aware, you’ve done your duty/responsibility. Keep good logs and sleep well at night… 
PS…I went through probably 15 or 20 annual DCAA audits in my time since I was both one of the more senior persons at the local office and (I hypothesize, confirmed by one auditor) because I had a much more varied client base than most so my time cards tended to be "more interesting" than the routine 40 hr/wk for a single client for six months at a time. Some of the division of labor rules, particularly as they related to allocating OT hours, I thought (and still think) are unfair to some clients in some circumstances, so I was not at all reluctant to shade the precise requirements to achieve an equitable allocation for a client. In my experience, the issue of most concern to DCAA auditors was concern about billing time to other jobs to "protect" jobs showing an overrun or that were in jeopardy, and working non-billed hours for the same reason. All in all, unless there is a concerted, directed effort to either transfer cost from one client/job to another or to "bail out" a poorly performing contract/client with another, the final detail of the rest is a matter of judgement as to how much detail is actually of any value to report. Sounds to me as though the client as determined there isn’t more than a modicum of need or they would have made it clear.
I have to agree with what Bob said. My husband is an engineer for the gov’t. He is always talking about billing time to projects he works on. For him it is because these projects are given a specific amount of funds to complete. To keep up with costs on the projects he has to bill his time to whatever projects he works on. Janice
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing the responsibility chain concerns after Enron, I have some questions about where I work. I work at an engineering company which performs services for a variety of international chemical/refinery companies. We have a program with one of our clients where we provide services to a large group of sites across the country. Our client corporate headquarters requires us to bill all our time to specific production sites and projects within those sights. We have activities that actually benefit groups of projects within a site and other sites. But we are required to bill this time to specific projects that we have to choose. I have a couple of questions and I am open to any additional comments: 1) This is ovbiously poor accounting practice as it does not truely capture value we bring across our client’s sites. Is there a specific term for this? job costing? responsibility accounting? it’s only poor accounting if the cost of the work or time is not accurately assigned or billed to the intended company or project. 2) In light of the Enron actions, is there a potential problem here? Enron was different, they were using "off balance sheet" subsidiaries, dubious energy trades, etc. There is a problem if any of the companies or sites/projects does government contract work. Shifting costs from one contract to another is illegal ! 3) If there is a problem, what can I do to help resolve it and how can I protect myself. make sure the work or time you perform is assigned or billed to the correct job – check with the accounting or audit dept.!
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He has already made a determination that the information is incorrect and deliberately incorrect. Whether he is right or not, material or not, is another matter. He has to make a decision whether he (or she) can live with the way things are. The price of knowingly "going along" with corrupt practices can be very high, particularly if the person "going along" can be proven to have known there was something wrong. It is common practice for high level perpetrators to proclaim their innocence and blame subordinates when things go wrong. This is not necessarily an easy decision. I can tell you of personal decisions by people I know where they have challenged poor accounting practices and risked their jobs before being proved correct. I also am aware of whistle blowing where the person was 100 percent right and their jobs remain in jeopardy. In whistle blowing, by any name, doesn’t mean one has to place labels on the actions. They simply and more correctly need to state what is happening, why its wrong, and where the evidence can be found and let the chips fall where they may. Again, if one is considering whistle blowing, they best, in my opinion, have another job lined up. Tippy is not necessarily advising the original poster to whistle blow, only to do so with great caution if s/he chooses to do so. I consider that to be good advice. Jim Hudspeth As I understand what OP described, he’s saying some work is potentially generic rather than specific even though it is also, by definition specific. He’s concerned that some costs should be allocated more widely than against the specific contract/project. Having also worked on large engineering projects for a series of clients where such scale benefits are also possible, I don’t see it as anything unusual to accumulate costs on the specific project even though the result may benefit other sites/projects. If, otoh, it is being done internally by his organization to prevent overruns on one job at the expense of another, then that is a problem. That isn’t the way I read it, but maybe that’s the crux. I read it pretty much the same way you did. I have considerable experience with the use of cost manipulation to obscure cost overruns, therefore I tend to consider it as a possibility until I have evidence to the contrary.
Me, too! Altho the firm I was associated with was about as careful as any I ever came across, with 25-30,000 technical employees, something on the order of 15-20,000 contracts at any one time, somebody, somewhere, was bound to get in trouble and try to sneak it in, occasionally. To the best of my knowledge we were never found intentionally in violation at corporate in nearly 35 years’ existence even though there have been several instances of (primarily disgruntled) employees claiming fraud. (I retired from there several years ago so there could have been some "goings on" since, but I’d be quite surprised.) I can’t be quite so sanquine about my knowledge of some other firms, however. As I suggested in my original commentary, we need more information if we are to go beyond speculation.
Aw, gee…and lose all the fun of a ng???
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of the division of labor rules, particularly as they related to allocating OT hours, I thought (and still think) are unfair to some clients in some circumstances, so I was not at all reluctant to shade the precise requirements to achieve an equitable allocation for a client. If you have a spare couple of minutes, can you be more specific on this topic? This is an issue that we address at my firm. However, we’re not government contractors so the rules do not apply to us really. However, I’m just curious about the way the OT issues we face could be handled if we were. A
Specifically what I questioned as being always fair was the redistribution of hours. If for example, I had two clients that required work during a pay period, one of which (say "A") had a deadline and was willing to pay actual hours worked while the other ("B"), while needing current effort did not have any immediate deadline. If, in order to meet both clients’ needs I were to work 20 hours for "B" and 30 for "A", the DCAA rules were that the actual hours charged to A and B would be prorated so that each an equivalent ratio of overtime hours. Thus, what I think unfair is that client "A" would be charged for excess time relative to client "B" who didn’t need the overtime. This was done, as understand it, to prevent government contractors to shift time to a underbid job. The net result was, that in most situations since I was salaried, and not paid for overtime, the overtime just was not reported so the client with the deadline was not penalized. If one were working for a single client, the issue did not arise. This also is not a germane issue for hourly employees, but only for salaried. (I’m sitting here now after having retired realizing I can’t recall the exact formula just now–I’ll try to resurect it from my subconscious, but it won’t be a pleasant experience–one thing I <definitely do <not miss, is working on government contracts.
He has already made a determination that the information is incorrect and deliberately incorrect. Whether he is right or not, material or not, is another matter. He has to make a decision whether he (or she) can live with the way things are.
The price of knowingly "going along" with corrupt practices can be very high, particularly if the person "going along" can be proven to have known there was something wrong. It is common practice for high level perpetrators to proclaim their innocence and blame subordinates when things go wrong. This is not necessarily an easy decision. I can tell you of personal decisions by people I know where they have challenged poor accounting practices and risked their jobs before being proved correct. I also am aware of whistle blowing where the person was 100 percent right and their jobs remain in jeopardy. In whistle blowing, by any name, doesn’t mean one has to place labels on the actions. They simply and more correctly need to state what is happening, why its wrong, and where the evidence can be found and let the chips fall where they may. Again, if one is considering whistle blowing, they best, in my opinion, have another job lined up.
Tippy is not necessarily advising the original poster to whistle blow, only to do so with great caution if s/he chooses to do so. I consider that to be good advice. Jim Hudspeth
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He has already made a determination that the information is incorrect and deliberately incorrect. Whether he is right or not, material or not, is another matter. He has to make a decision whether he (or she) can live with the way things are. The price of knowingly "going along" with corrupt practices can be very high, particularly if the person "going along" can be proven to have known there was something wrong. It is common practice for high level perpetrators to proclaim their innocence and blame subordinates when things go wrong. This is not necessarily an easy decision. I can tell you of personal decisions by people I know where they have challenged poor accounting practices and risked their jobs before being proved correct. I also am aware of whistle blowing where the person was 100 percent right and their jobs remain in jeopardy. In whistle blowing, by any name, doesn’t mean one has to place labels on the actions. They simply and more correctly need to state what is happening, why its wrong, and where the evidence can be found and let the chips fall where they may. Again, if one is considering whistle blowing, they best, in my opinion, have another job lined up. Tippy is not necessarily advising the original poster to whistle blow, only to do so with great caution if s/he chooses to do so. I consider that to be good advice. Jim Hudspeth
As I understand what OP described, he’s saying some work is potentially generic rather than specific even though it is also, by definition specific. He’s concerned that some costs should be allocated more widely than against the specific contract/project. Having also worked on large engineering projects for a series of clients where such scale benefits are also possible, I don’t see it as anything unusual to accumulate costs on the specific project even though the result may benefit other sites/projects. If, otoh, it is being done internally by his organization to prevent overruns on one job at the expense of another, then that is a problem. That isn’t the way I read it, but maybe that’s the crux.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He has already made a determination that the information is incorrect and deliberately incorrect. Whether he is right or not, material or not, is another matter. He has to make a decision whether he (or she) can live with the way things are. The price of knowingly "going along" with corrupt practices can be very high, particularly if the person "going along" can be proven to have known there was something wrong. It is common practice for high level perpetrators to proclaim their innocence and blame subordinates when things go wrong. This is not necessarily an easy decision. I can tell you of personal decisions by people I know where they have challenged poor accounting practices and risked their jobs before being proved correct. I also am aware of whistle blowing where the person was 100 percent right and their jobs remain in jeopardy. In whistle blowing, by any name, doesn’t mean one has to place labels on the actions. They simply and more correctly need to state what is happening, why its wrong, and where the evidence can be found and let the chips fall where they may. Again, if one is considering whistle blowing, they best, in my opinion, have another job lined up. Tippy is not necessarily advising the original poster to whistle blow, only to do so with great caution if s/he chooses to do so. I consider that to be good advice. Jim Hudspeth As I understand what OP described, he’s saying some work is potentially generic rather than specific even though it is also, by definition specific. He’s concerned that some costs should be allocated more widely than against the specific contract/project. Having also worked on large engineering projects for a series of clients where such scale benefits are also possible, I don’t see it as anything unusual to accumulate costs on the specific project even though the result may benefit other sites/projects. If, otoh, it is being done internally by his organization to prevent overruns on one job at the expense of another, then that is a problem. That isn’t the way I read it, but maybe that’s the crux.
I read it pretty much the same way you did. I have considerable experience with the use of cost manipulation to obscure cost overruns, therefore I tend to consider it as a possibility until I have evidence to the contrary. As I suggested in my original commentary, we need more information if we are to go beyond speculation. Jim Hudspeth
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to agree with what Bob said. My husband is an engineer for the gov’t. He is always talking about billing time to projects he works on. For him it is because these projects are given a specific amount of funds to complete. To keep up with costs on the projects he has to bill his time to whatever projects he works on. Janice I have audited a number of federal gov’t entities (not contractors in this instance) where they charged whatever pot of money was available regardless of what they worked on. I have no doubts whatsoever that gov’t contractors also tend to do the same from time to time or at least some do.
From my experience auditing construction contract costs of contractors with the U.S. Government, I would say, generally no. Most of the problems were associated with extra work, extra work authorization, and allocations between extra work and the bid work. A side problem was most people, accountants included, seemed to have no idea on how to handle overhead allocations. I always thought the False Claims acts tended to keep people rather cautious with flights of fancy. I have also seen local gov’ts wrongly charge the federal gov’t for costs that should have been funded with local funds and also where they charged local funds when they could have charged the feds. It happens and sometimes they get caught.
Most local governments have very serious systemic problems. From what I’ve seen it seems to take quite a bit of effort to separate the fraud from the blind incompetence. Not that Janice’s husband would deliberately charge the wrong job <grin, but some are certainly pressured to do so to keep within budgets and time constraints on the funds. Tippy
Best Regards. Boycott list: Belgium, France, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, PRC, Iran, Syria, Hollywood, San Francisco, Massachusetts, New York City, Sierra Club, ACLU, Movies of the first blacklist, Turner, Madonna, S. Crowe, Dixie Chicks, Cher, U2, rapp, Trudeau, W.Miller, Disney, ABC news, CBS news, NBC news, CNN, PBS, B&H Photo Video, Heinz Foods, Sometimes the only influence you have is to say, "No, I’m not buying." For those who are unclear about the situation, California is the Clinton – Davis model for the rest of the United States of America.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing the responsibility chain concerns after Enron, I have some questions about where I work. I work at an engineering company which performs services for a variety of international chemical/refinery companies. We have a program with one of our clients where we provide services to a large group of sites across the country. Our client corporate headquarters requires us to bill all our time to specific production sites and projects within those sights. We have activities that actually benefit groups of projects within a site and other sites. But we are required to bill this time to specific projects that we have to choose. I have a couple of questions and I am open to any additional comments: 1) This is ovbiously poor accounting practice as it does not truely capture value we bring across our client’s sites. Is there a specific term for this? 2) In light of the Enron actions, is there a potential problem here? 3) If there is a problem, what can I do to help resolve it and how can I protect myself. Rick You have a dilemma faced by many accountants and engineers. Apparently, you have surfaced your concerns to your superiors. Now, you have to make a decision. Take care if you plan to whistle blow. If your clients include the U.S. gov’t, you can blow the whistle and collect under qui tam. Best, far best, to remain anon, or to keep your identity protected by the gov’t. I would recommend finding another job (and letting the "independent" auditor know, again anon). Tippy What bad advice. I’m not so sure about that. Rick doesn’t give much in the way of detail, however what he does give us indicates that he thinks there is a problem with cost allocations. That COULD be a problem. I would want more detail before I said anything more.
Which is why it is bad advice. "Whistle blowing" when there IS a problem causes enough trouble for the person doing the reporting. To do so when there is no problem, just a lack of understanding, is even more likely to piss people off.
Some of the division of labor rules, particularly as they related to allocating OT hours, I thought (and still think) are unfair to some clients in some circumstances, so I was not at all reluctant to shade the precise requirements to achieve an equitable allocation for a client.
If you have a spare couple of minutes, can you be more specific on this topic? This is an issue that we address at my firm. However, we’re not government contractors so the rules do not apply to us really. However, I’m just curious about the way the OT issues we face could be handled if we were. A
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing the responsibility chain concerns after Enron, I have some questions about where I work. I work at an engineering company which performs services for a variety of international chemical/refinery companies. We have a program with one of our clients where we provide services to a large group of sites across the country. Our client corporate headquarters requires us to bill all our time to specific production sites and projects within those sights. We have activities that actually benefit groups of projects within a site and other sites. But we are required to bill this time to specific projects that we have to choose. I have a couple of questions and I am open to any additional comments: 1) This is ovbiously poor accounting practice as it does not truely capture value we bring across our client’s sites. Is there a specific term for this? 2) In light of the Enron actions, is there a potential problem here? 3) If there is a problem, what can I do to help resolve it and how can I protect myself. Rick You have a dilemma faced by many accountants and engineers. Apparently, you have surfaced your concerns to your superiors. Now, you have to make a decision. Take care if you plan to whistle blow. If your clients include the U.S. gov’t, you can blow the whistle and collect under qui tam. Best, far best, to remain anon, or to keep your identity protected by the gov’t. I would recommend finding another job (and letting the "independent" auditor know, again anon). Tippy What bad advice.
I’m not so sure about that. Rick doesn’t give much in the way of detail, however what he does give us indicates that he thinks there is a problem with cost allocations. That COULD be a problem. I would want more detail before I said anything more. Jim Hudspeth
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing the responsibility chain concerns after Enron, I have some questions about where I work. I work at an engineering company which performs services for a variety of international chemical/refinery companies. We have a program with one of our clients where we provide services to a large group of sites across the country. Our client corporate headquarters requires us to bill all our time to specific production sites and projects within those sights. We have activities that actually benefit groups of projects within a site and other sites. But we are required to bill this time to specific projects that we have to choose. I have a couple of questions and I am open to any additional comments: 1) This is ovbiously poor accounting practice as it does not truely capture value we bring across our client’s sites. Is there a specific term for this?
job costing? responsibility accounting? it’s only poor accounting if the cost of the work or time is not accurately assigned or billed to the intended company or project. 2) In light of the Enron actions, is there a potential problem here?
Enron was different, they were using "off balance sheet" subsidiaries, dubious energy trades, etc. There is a problem if any of the companies or sites/projects does government contract work. Shifting costs from one contract to another is illegal ! 3) If there is a problem, what can I do to help resolve it and how can I protect myself.
make sure the work or time you perform is assigned or billed to the correct job – check with the accounting or audit dept.!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After hearing the responsibility chain concerns after Enron, I have some questions about where I work. I work at an engineering company which performs services for a variety of international chemical/refinery companies. We have a program with one of our clients where we provide services to a large group of sites across the country. Our client corporate headquarters requires us to bill all our time to specific production sites and projects within those sights. We have activities that actually benefit groups of projects within a site and other sites. But we are required to bill this time to specific projects that we have to choose. I have a couple of questions and I am open to any additional comments: 1) This is ovbiously poor accounting practice as it does not truely capture value we bring across our client’s sites. Is there a specific term for this? 2) In light of the Enron actions, is there a potential problem here? 3) If there is a problem, what can I do to help resolve it and how can I protect myself. Rick You have a dilemma faced by many accountants and engineers. Apparently, you have surfaced your concerns to your superiors. Now, you have to make a decision. Take care if you plan to whistle blow. If your clients include the U.S. gov’t, you can blow the whistle and collect under qui tam. Best, far best, to remain anon, or to keep your identity protected by the gov’t. I would recommend finding another job (and letting the "independent" auditor know, again anon). Tippy
What bad advice. How they do internal cost allocations has nothing to do with him or his company, and, quite frankly, there is no indication here that anything untoward is going on. Allocation of costs across multiple projects is a cost / benefit exercise. Sometimes the cost does not justify the benefit.
After hearing the responsibility chain concerns after Enron, I have some questions about where I work. I work at an engineering company which performs services for a variety of international chemical/refinery companies. We have a program with one of our clients where we provide services to a large group of sites across the country. Our client corporate headquarters requires us to bill all our time to specific production sites and projects within those sights. We have activities that actually benefit groups of projects within a site and other sites. But we are required to bill this time to specific projects that we have to choose. I have a couple of questions and I am open to any additional comments: 1) This is ovbiously poor accounting practice as it does not truely capture value we bring across our client’s sites. Is there a specific term for this? 2) In light of the Enron actions, is there a potential problem here? 3) If there is a problem, what can I do to help resolve it and how can I protect myself. Rick
*huggles to Geri and Brian* i know exactly how you’re feeling-his first wife did Exactly the same thing once, and i was in a snit for a couple of days…..all i can offer is encouragement-you’re doing the best you can with something that’s very difficult, and i know that there’s likely some anticipation that it’s gonna get worse before it gets better….all i can say is that from what i see, ya’ll are doing good….just keep on doing what you’re doing, and i’ll loan you my cheerful doggiebaby if you need to scream at something that won’t care….;) prayers, Jess "Conspicuous" <listmas…@internetfortherestofus.com> wrote in message
news:de88e665.0304291908.7cc42c89@posting.google.com… > gplen…@aol.commotion (Geri and sometimes Brian) wrote in message
<news:20030429184819.21194.00000320@mb-m15.aol.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > We went in to court today, which was supposed to be the custody hearing date, > > to request a continuance until summer. We had already *agreed* with BM on this > > continuance, based on the need for the court evaluator to have more time, and > > also based on that we still have part of our fee to pay (since we are currently > > a one income (mine) family – unlike Kitten, since the first of the year, our > > income has decreased 25%). Also, after five months of not requesting it > > (unlike Bozo, who would undoubtedly have left skid marks to the courthouse the > > first day of her unemployment), Brian filed for child support, the hearing date > > set for June. We kind of anticipated having both hearings changed to the same > > date, probably in July. > Hi Geri, > Yikes. You’re making me feel so….lucky! I hope the monster gets > what she deserves…well, I guess she did! She got a LAWYER! Snerk, > snerk. > Have a better tomorrow. > Irene
> We came to an agreement about this continuance, it was all > cordial. Like I said, there have been no major blowups between the households > for a while now, so I feel kind of stabbed in the back in a way. Like why > bother. Maybe it is PMS – I don’t know – it is a hard thing to explain.
I know exactly what you mean. We’ve been on that roller coaster for years. We’ll have seemingly rational and cordial interactions with BM, and then she’ll do something crazy again. Every time we think we’re prepared, but we’re not. The only thing we can know is that we can’t know. ;-O I feel for you, Brian and SD. At least you have time now until the next court date, right? Jennifer
>At least you have time now until the next court >date, right?
Right, a couple of months. We will have to see what happens next. (sigh) ~~Geri~~
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen…@aol.commotion> wrote in message news:20030429184819.21194.00000320@mb-m15.aol.com… > This is kind of funny, because Brian is not nearly as chapped about this > attorney thing as I am. I guess I am pissed because this is the first time BM > has ever completely blind-sided us with anything – we have usually be able to > predict pretty accurately what evil she will do next. Also, it seems a little > stinky to me that for someone who is too poor to pay for anything, all of a > sudden she can come up with the money for an attorney – probably to try to > fight her paying child support, but especially to represent her on an issue we > had already talked with her about and agreed on.
Geri – Did you guys blind-side her with the request for CS? If the court date was just to take care of what you guys had already agreed upon and no request for CS was involved do you think maybe she would not have hired a lawyer then? ~August
>and used to the idea that the >attorney is going to do his best to bog you guys down in paper work and >motions. It’s what she’s paying him to do.
Melissa! That is *not* what she’s paying him to do. jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Love, >Melissa
>Did you guys blind-side her with the request for CS? If the court date was >just to take care of what you guys had already agreed upon and no request >for CS was involved do you think maybe she would not have hired a lawyer >then?
There was a different court date for the CS. The request for CS could not have been a real big surprise, because we told her back when Brian lost his job that we might have to ask for it. I suspect that getting the attorney might be about the child support request, but she is going to end up paying him more (in fact, probably already has) than she would have had to pay us for a few months of child support. That makes no sense to me. Also, unless the (illegal) gender card is played, there is no way she should not have to pay it, since Brian is not purposefully remaining unemployed, so hiring an attorney is not going to prevent this. I guess that is part of my frustration – I can’t imagine what she is thinking. ~~Geri~~
gplen…@aol.commotion (Geri and sometimes Brian) wrote in message <news:20030429184819.21194.00000320@mb-m15.aol.com>… > We went in to court today, which was supposed to be the custody hearing date, > to request a continuance until summer. We had already *agreed* with BM on this > continuance, based on the need for the court evaluator to have more time, and > also based on that we still have part of our fee to pay (since we are currently > a one income (mine) family – unlike Kitten, since the first of the year, our > income has decreased 25%). Also, after five months of not requesting it > (unlike Bozo, who would undoubtedly have left skid marks to the courthouse the > first day of her unemployment), Brian filed for child support, the hearing date > set for June. We kind of anticipated having both hearings changed to the same > date, probably in July.
Hi Geri, Yikes. You’re making me feel so….lucky! I hope the monster gets what she deserves…well, I guess she did! She got a LAWYER! Snerk, snerk. Have a better tomorrow. Irene
>Big hugs to both you and Brian.
Thanks! :-) ~~Geri~~
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen…@aol.commotion> wrote in message news:20030429202818.21194.00000335@mb-m15.aol.com… > That being said, if BM would get custody, we would be freed up in a lot of > ways. We could move where we please (if we were paying substantial CS, we > would have to leave here in order to make ends meet) and move on with our > lives. SD could come and stay with us for the summer. We could be fairly free > of BM most of the time. I think this would wreak havoc on SD’s life, but at > least everyone could move on and get used to it instead of this waiting to see > how it is all going to turn out for years.
Geri I SO hear you ;( There are days I think about all the things we could have done had we not had BM to deal with on a constant basis. I absolutly cannot STAND living in the midwest and have been dying to move south (away from cold winters) for what seems like forever. OTOH though I am also very aware of how much of a vindictive *really bad "C" word* BM is and know that she would take us to the cleaners in CS payments if she had custody. I love my daughter and would never give her up for the world but it would be so nice to be free of all the crap we deal with because of BM. But then again, it’s all worth it in the end because I got such a great kid out of the deal *VBG* Jen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ~~Geri~~
>As I was watching all of this today, the temptation to convince Brian to bug >out of this whole deal and just write checks was running high. But then the >thought of abandoning SD (who cried and cried last week one night when I left >for work (and didn’t know she was still awake) because I forgot to kiss her >and >say good-bye before I left – he had to get me out of report to talk to her) >to >an incompetant mother just rips my heart out. >That is all. >~~Geri~~
Big hugs to both you and Brian. "This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii
>Didn’t your husband and mine get laid off on the same day or something? DH >had a lot of "overqualified" feedback too
It has been since December for us, though technically, Brian was paid through the end of the month so real unemployment didn’t start until January. Brian is in a funny industry. He is an accountant, but his "specialty" is real estate management so he isn’t going to get even considered for something like tax or cost accounting. His industry is pretty volatile, too, based not only on real estate, but retail. We (he and I) kind of have the same deal. People always say to me, "Oh, you are a nurse, you can work anywhere." Not really, because I have ever only worked with kids, moms and babies. I have never done adult nursing since nursing school (nor do I want to), so I am not really marketable as, for example, an ER nurse or critical care nurse (where the big bucks, high stress jobs are). >It’s a tough job market right now, and we are >fortunate in that the unemployment in this state is not as high as many >others. How’s California?
I think we are about a percent higher than the national rate, IIRC. Brian is, besides doing his own searching, also going through a bunch of headhunters. ~~Geri~~
>Part of you is probably feeling, >"She got an attorney, there’s going to be some weird thing up her >sleeve or she’s going to try to blindside us with some legal thing."
That is exactly it. I worked for lawyers that did family law for a few years and I have seen firsthand the tricky stuff they can do. When I saw this lawyer, one of my initial thoughts was "attorney=tricky stuff up her sleeve". >The little smirks and the unexpected attorneys are just >reminders of the fact that this is never going to go away, and it’s >going to be 10 more years before Lauren is 18.
Ugh, ugh, ugh. ~~Geri~~
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen…@aol.commotion> wrote in message news:20030429210115.13060.00000451@mb-m10.aol.com… > That is exactly it. I worked for lawyers that did family law for a few years > and I have seen firsthand the tricky stuff they can do. When I saw this > lawyer, one of my initial thoughts was "attorney=tricky stuff up her sleeve".
Do you think that she might be feeling threatened by the possibility that you may win, hence the necessity for getting an attorney? What do you expect at the continued date? Karen
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen…@aol.commotion> wrote in message news:20030429202818.21194.00000335@mb-m15.aol.com… > That being said, if BM would get custody, we would be freed up in a lot of > ways. We could move where we please (if we were paying substantial CS, we > would have to leave here in order to make ends meet) and move on with our > lives. SD could come and stay with us for the summer. We could be fairly free > of BM most of the time. I think this would wreak havoc on SD’s life, but at > least everyone could move on and get used to it instead of this waiting to see > how it is all going to turn out for years.
Geri, I totally understand how you feel and you have my sympathy. It’s a tough spot to be in where you are now. Being at the point of wanting to stay and fight to the end for SD but also wanting to cut your losses and walk away and be done with the fighting and hassles and get on with life. I wish you and Brian well and I hope it all turns out the way you want it too. Mika
>Do you think that she might be feeling threatened by the possibility that >you may win, hence the necessity for getting an attorney?
It is possible. >What do you expect at the continued date?
The court evaluation should be completed, the school/custody issues decided and the child support thing will be heard and decided on. This happens in July. (Thank God I am going home in August for the first football game of the season and to see my family. I wish I could go for a few days now, as my sister is home from Ireland for a week.) ~~Geri~~
>Being at the point of wanting to stay >and fight to the end for SD but also wanting to cut your losses and walk >away and be done with the fighting and hassles and get on with life. I wish >you and Brian well and I hope it all turns out the way you want it too.
Thanks. Well, we have until July. Who knows what will happen before then (except that I will turn 45). ~~Geri~~
"Geri and sometimes Brian" <gplen…@aol.commotion> wrote in message news:20030429184819.21194.00000320@mb-m15.aol.com… > We are presuming that he will > be working by then (he has been First Runner Up on several jobs he has applied > for, but never makes it to Miss America), although today a potential employer > called and cancelled an interview because he is overqualified. > ~~Geri~~
Geri, Didn’t your husband and mine get laid off on the same day or something? DH had a lot of "overqualified" feedback too. He finally made revisions to his resume that removed references to length of experience. Also, we learned that most larger companies have the submitted resumes "read" by computers to check number of keywords. If the right keywards are not in there it doesn’t even get to an HR rep. It’s a tough job market right now, and we are fortunate in that the unemployment in this state is not as high as many others. How’s California? Karen
>Weren’t you kind of expecting this though?
Not at all. BM is the poorest person in the world. >Can you get an attorney as well?
Not really. To be honest, I am kind of tired of all of this battling and there is a limit to what I will finance with my working alone (as in I am not going to kill myself working overtime for it) – this court evaluation and an attorney are Brian’s responsibility, really. >Seems like a standard thing to ask in regards to custody and support. I >wouldn’t take it personally. My guess is that it won’t come up again once >Brian has turned over the information.
It probably is. Brian isn’t offended by it. This is totally a me thing, and like I said probably unreasonable. I feel like I have done a lot to smooth things between the households just by handling them myself in a cordial way with BM. She even thanked me for covering her butt last week when her sister’s child spilled the beans to SD about the Easter Bunny – I think I bought us at least a year or so. We came to an agreement about this continuance, it was all cordial. Like I said, there have been no major blowups between the households for a while now, so I feel kind of stabbed in the back in a way. Like why bother. Maybe it is PMS – I don’t know – it is a hard thing to explain. >There’s >no use letting it get to you. That’s what she wants.
I know. I just hate that nyah-nyah she was exuding at us. I can just imagine what she would be like if she actually would get majority custody. I would have to move into Scott Peterson’s cell, I fear. ~~Geri~~
(snip) >In CA, is your income figured into the whole equation?
Not at all. There is a formula (supposedly non-gender biased) that plugs in the percent of custody of both parents and the income of both parents and spits out a number and that is the amount of child support. BM has refused to even provide her financial information to us for two years (technically she is in contempt, but we have not pursued it). If she makes substantially more money than Brian, according to this formula, she should be paying. We are not hurting financially (at this point) as far as living expenses because of my income – SD is not even aware of any real differences in lifestyle, and that was why we originally waited to request CS for so long, to help kee the animosity level down. OTOH, BM is still nickel and diming us on things like medication co-pays and things like that, even though she knew we could request CS, and that we never bothered to even ask her for when both of us were working. ~~Geri~~
>Not really. To be honest, I am kind of tired of all of this battling and >there >is a limit to what I will finance with my working alone (as in I am not going >to kill myself working overtime for it) – this court evaluation and an >attorney >are Brian’s responsibility, really.
Limit setting is a great thing. >It probably is. Brian isn’t offended by it. This is totally a me thing, and >like I said probably unreasonable. I feel like I have done a lot to smooth >things between the households just by handling them myself in a cordial way >with BM. She even thanked me for covering her butt last week when her >sister’s >child spilled the beans to SD about the Easter Bunny – I think I bought us at >least a year or so. We came to an agreement about this continuance, it was >all >cordial. Like I said, there have been no major blowups between the >households >for a while now, so I feel kind of stabbed in the back in a way. Like why >bother. Maybe it is PMS – I don’t know – it is a hard thing to explain.
Actually I think you’re right in that BM having an attorney might really help eliminate some her more stupid motions and outbursts. Our BM’s attorney used to kick BM hard under the table when she’d start ranting at meetings and the hearing. >I know. I just hate that nyah-nyah she was exuding at us. I can just >imagine >what she would be like if she actually would get majority custody. I would >have to move into Scott Peterson’s cell, I fear.
My advice would be to prepare yourself for the possibility that she will, maybe even assume that she will. Preparing for the worst may make whatever the judge comes up with not seem so bad. Love, Melissa A good friend will come bail you out of jail… but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn we F#*%d up!"
>My advice would be to prepare yourself for the possibility that she will, >maybe >even assume that she will. Preparing for the worst may make whatever the >judge >comes up with not seem so bad.
We have talked about it. My focus would be to see positives on both sides of the coin. We think SD has the greatest chance of "stabilizing" for want of a better word, if we have majority custody. She is still demonstrating better school behavior on our custody time, even at Stalag 13. I think her mom’s lifestyle is a life of chaos and drama and I don’t think it would be good for SD to live their for the majority of her life. That being said, if BM would get custody, we would be freed up in a lot of ways. We could move where we please (if we were paying substantial CS, we would have to leave here in order to make ends meet) and move on with our lives. SD could come and stay with us for the summer. We could be fairly free of BM most of the time. I think this would wreak havoc on SD’s life, but at least everyone could move on and get used to it instead of this waiting to see how it is all going to turn out for years. ~~Geri~~
On 30 Apr 2003 00:07:27 GMT, gplen…@aol.commotion (Geri and sometimes Brian) wrote: >It probably is. Brian isn’t offended by it. This is totally a me thing, and >like I said probably unreasonable. I feel like I have done a lot to smooth >things between the households just by handling them myself in a cordial way >with BM. She even thanked me for covering her butt last week when her sister’s >child spilled the beans to SD about the Easter Bunny – I think I bought us at >least a year or so. We came to an agreement about this continuance, it was all >cordial. Like I said, there have been no major blowups between the households >for a while now, so I feel kind of stabbed in the back in a way. Like why >bother. Maybe it is PMS – I don’t know – it is a hard thing to explain.
You know Geri, with our BM, whenever something unexpected happens, even if it’s something that people can put a normal or happy spin on, I’m always dreading the other shoe. Part of you is probably feeling, "She got an attorney, there’s going to be some weird thing up her sleeve or she’s going to try to blindside us with some legal thing." And you really do just get sick of it, all the fighting, all the bullshit. The little smirks and the unexpected attorneys are just reminders of the fact that this is never going to go away, and it’s going to be 10 more years before Lauren is 18. Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>There’s >>no use letting it get to you. That’s what she wants. >I know. I just hate that nyah-nyah she was exuding at us. I can just imagine >what she would be like if she actually would get majority custody. I would >have to move into Scott Peterson’s cell, I fear. >~~Geri~~
>and we are given >the notice that she now has an attorney. (Both Brian and BM have not used >attorneys for a couple of years now.) This is the same (vile) creature who >has >said in her zillions of court documents 98,789,954 times that she doesn’t >have >enough money to pay for this or that for SD (including her half of the court >evaluation – which she seems to have dug up somewhere).
Weren’t you kind of expecting this though? I can’t imagine not having a lawyer for something as big as a custody evaluation. Can you get an attorney as well? I know with finances that’s going to be tough. Our court thing happend when SO was laid off and damn was it expensive. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->So, when it is our turn, he proceeds to go up and speak to the judge first, >ask >for the continuance, move that the dates be joined – all which we expected >and >planned on (now costing BM probably fifteen hundred bucks to do so). Then he >proceeds to move that Brian has to provide documentation of the number of >contacts and interviews (he wanted to have a set number, but the judge didn’t >allow that) and with whom that Brian has done. He made it sound like Brian >is >some deadbeat who isn’t looking for a job and delaying the custody evaluation >on purpose. Fortunately we can prove otherwise, but the implication was just >insulting. Anyway, so now Brian has to do that. We are presuming that he >will >be working by then (he has been First Runner Up on several jobs he has >applied >for, but never makes it to Miss America), although today a potential employer >called and cancelled an interview because he is overqualified.
Seems like a standard thing to ask in regards to custody and support. I wouldn’t take it personally. My guess is that it won’t come up again once Brian has turned over the information. >The other thing that really irritated me was that we were sitting behind her >and she kept turning around to smirk at us. Really, I wanted to just snatch >her bald, slap her into next week and be done with it.
Can you let this crap go? If BM wants to act childish then let her. There’s no use letting it get to you. That’s what she wants. > We have >been tossing around the idea, every time BM calls here about some stupid >thing, >to let her talk to the machine, answer her in writing, and copy it to her >attorney (and thus costing her some legal fees).
That makes good sense to do right before a big court thing anyway. >I know this is unreasonable, but that past few months, dealing with BM, have >been relatively painless – I just handle it all, which keeps things short and >sweet and Brian’s blood pressure down – so in a way this feels like a >back-stabbing (well, what a surprise, I guess) from her.
I’m not sure I understand that at all. Attorneys and court kind of go together don’t they? How is it backstabbing? >The very bottom line is that I don’t see how any of this is good for SD. The >acrimony is at a new high, money that could be supporting her is going to an >attorney, and all of this because BM wants to fight so hard to keep SD in a >crummy school where her behavior scores have decreased 20% in the four months >she has been in school there, she is learning to talk like a sailor from the >older criminals-in-waiting at that place, her only friend is an autistic >five-year old (who we had to stop her from aping), her academics have >decreased >(the one day she brought home some work from school, it was of the level she >had been doing easily in first grade), she has to ride two hours in a van to >get to and from the place, her doctors all disagree with her being there, and >the school refused to communicate with us about any of these concerns!
You’re right. None of this is good for SD, or the adults involved. It’s all about choosing your battles. Is this one worth it? If it is then I think you need to get used to BM having an attorney, and used to the idea that the attorney is going to do his best to bog you guys down in paper work and motions. It’s what she’s paying him to do. I feel for everyone though. Going to court is a horrible process, and it always seems like no one seems happy with the outcome. Love, Melissa A good friend will come bail you out of jail… but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn we F#*%d up!"
We went in to court today, which was supposed to be the custody hearing date, to request a continuance until summer. We had already *agreed* with BM on this continuance, based on the need for the court evaluator to have more time, and also based on that we still have part of our fee to pay (since we are currently a one income (mine) family – unlike Kitten, since the first of the year, our income has decreased 25%). Also, after five months of not requesting it (unlike Bozo, who would undoubtedly have left skid marks to the courthouse the first day of her unemployment), Brian filed for child support, the hearing date set for June. We kind of anticipated having both hearings changed to the same date, probably in July. So, we went into court today and there is Bozo (in the SAME dress she always wears – this must be her lucky dress that she never washes) and we are given the notice that she now has an attorney. (Both Brian and BM have not used attorneys for a couple of years now.) This is the same (vile) creature who has said in her zillions of court documents 98,789,954 times that she doesn’t have enough money to pay for this or that for SD (including her half of the court evaluation – which she seems to have dug up somewhere). So, when it is our turn, he proceeds to go up and speak to the judge first, ask for the continuance, move that the dates be joined – all which we expected and planned on (now costing BM probably fifteen hundred bucks to do so). Then he proceeds to move that Brian has to provide documentation of the number of contacts and interviews (he wanted to have a set number, but the judge didn’t allow that) and with whom that Brian has done. He made it sound like Brian is some deadbeat who isn’t looking for a job and delaying the custody evaluation on purpose. Fortunately we can prove otherwise, but the implication was just insulting. Anyway, so now Brian has to do that. We are presuming that he will be working by then (he has been First Runner Up on several jobs he has applied for, but never makes it to Miss America), although today a potential employer called and cancelled an interview because he is overqualified. This is kind of funny, because Brian is not nearly as chapped about this attorney thing as I am. I guess I am pissed because this is the first time BM has ever completely blind-sided us with anything – we have usually be able to predict pretty accurately what evil she will do next. Also, it seems a little stinky to me that for someone who is too poor to pay for anything, all of a sudden she can come up with the money for an attorney – probably to try to fight her paying child support, but especially to represent her on an issue we had already talked with her about and agreed on. The other thing that really irritated me was that we were sitting behind her and she kept turning around to smirk at us. Really, I wanted to just snatch her bald, slap her into next week and be done with it. I see there possibly can be some good sides to this – such as if the court can also make the connection about her having the money to pay an attorney, but being too broke for anything else. Also, presumably she will no longer be filing all of this dopey, frivolous crap based on no evidence, dragging us into court. We have seen this judge be fairly lenient with people who represent themselves, so we may be able to get away with more than a person whose job it is to professionally appear in a courtroom. He is going to have to file documents on time, etc., and actually serve us with the things sooner than five minutes before court starts. (Actually, we have not been properly served with any of the court orders since 2000.) I am not sure, since Brian represents himself, if he is obligated (or allowed) to communicate with the attorney or with BM through the attorney now. The last time we used attorneys, both sides had them (not an option for us), so we are not sure what the protocol is. The level of adversarial-ness and hostility of this whole thing has elevated about 3000%, as far as we are concerned. We have been tossing around the idea, every time BM calls here about some stupid thing, to let her talk to the machine, answer her in writing, and copy it to her attorney (and thus costing her some legal fees). I know this is unreasonable, but that past few months, dealing with BM, have been relatively painless – I just handle it all, which keeps things short and sweet and Brian’s blood pressure down – so in a way this feels like a back-stabbing (well, what a surprise, I guess) from her. The very bottom line is that I don’t see how any of this is good for SD. The acrimony is at a new high, money that could be supporting her is going to an attorney, and all of this because BM wants to fight so hard to keep SD in a crummy school where her behavior scores have decreased 20% in the four months she has been in school there, she is learning to talk like a sailor from the older criminals-in-waiting at that place, her only friend is an autistic five-year old (who we had to stop her from aping), her academics have decreased (the one day she brought home some work from school, it was of the level she had been doing easily in first grade), she has to ride two hours in a van to get to and from the place, her doctors all disagree with her being there, and the school refused to communicate with us about any of these concerns! As I was watching all of this today, the temptation to convince Brian to bug out of this whole deal and just write checks was running high. But then the thought of abandoning SD (who cried and cried last week one night when I left for work (and didn’t know she was still awake) because I forgot to kiss her and say good-bye before I left – he had to get me out of report to talk to her) to an incompetant mother just rips my heart out. That is all. ~~Geri~~
Geri wrote: > As I was watching all of this today, the temptation to convince Brian to
bug out of this whole deal and just write checks was running high. But then the thought of abandoning SD (who cried and cried last week one night when I left for work (and didn’t know she was still awake) because I forgot to kiss her and say good-bye before I left – he had to get me out of report to talk to her) to an incompetant mother just rips my heart out. Sorry things aren’t working out the way you guys had hoped — that truly sucks. Really, though, I don’t understand why you’re upset about her hiring the lawyer. I realize that you guys aren’t in the position to hire one right now (though if you needed to, you probably could find one that would work with you), but if she can afford one, what is the big deal? Why is it that Brian feels the need to go for CS now? Given that you guys have that whole 50/50 arrangement, it doesn’t seem fair that BM should have to pay CS b/c her situation is presumably improved over yours right now — though I suppose that the argument would be that Brian is the unemployed parent and you are the spouse of the parent. That doesn’t quite gel, however, with the whole "equal" partner thing when it comes to SD’s needs and decision making power…… In CA, is your income figured into the whole equation? I’m just curious — NOT that I believe that it should be figured into it — b/c I thought that CA was one of the states that figured "household income" rather than parental income. Just thinking aloud….. — Didi Mother of 4, Step-mother of 1 "Children, perfection, and sanity. You can only have 2 out of 3." Anonymous
Mind you, it also has the disquieting implication that the accountants weren’t found wrong. That should not sit comfortably…
Let’s remember the issue in question–did the government show that someone in Andersen attempted to corruptly persuade others to destroy evidence, which was essentially the criminal charge. On the one hand, they did not agree that any accountant filled that role–and, clearly, they considered at least Duncan and Odom as candidates and did not unanimously agree that either of them filled that role. On the other hand, though, once they found a single corrupt persuader they could all agree on, they didn’t need to search for another one. So I don’t think you can conclude that, had Nancy Temple not done what she did, they would not have eventually found an accountant who fit the role.
It seems to me that this verdict has actually caused more commotion in *legal* circles than it has in accounting circles, because the "bad act" the jury found related not to the conduct of accountants, but rather to the actions of an attorney. That’s a pretty stunning result, for the problematic conduct to have been at the attorney level. Mind you, it also has the disquieting implication that the accountants weren’t found wrong. That should not sit comfortably… —
The accountants did plenty wrong. That is what sits uncomfortably. Don’t blame the media. Don’t blame the attorneys. The _ACCOUNTANTS_ did plenty wrong. Without reducing the blame placed on individual accountants and accounting firms, additional blame should be assigned to the U.S. Congress, the SEC, the AICPA, and various individuals and firms who make their money selling tainted investment advice. There are probably others. Regards, Bill
It seems to me that this verdict has actually caused more commotion in *legal* circles than it has in accounting circles, because the "bad act" the jury found related not to the conduct of accountants, but rather to the actions of an attorney.
That’s a pretty stunning result, for the problematic conduct to have been at the attorney level. Mind you, it also has the disquieting implication that the accountants weren’t found wrong. That should not sit comfortably… — http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/finances.html The cigars in Los Angeles that were Duchamp-signed and then smoked.
That’s the one part of the case I didn’t get. It appeared to me that she wanted her name taken off a memo for her own personal reasons — meaning she did not want to be called as a witness.
No, actually that would be for the protection of the employer/client. A disclosure related to a meeting in which legal counsel was involved that was included in the "quasi-public" workpaper file would result in a waiver of privilege, and potentially require the attorney to testify. In general, it’s not considered a good idea to put your attorney in that position <grin, so that move would have been one that "made sense" and was to protect the employer so that privilege could still be asserted. Now, whether the *jury* understood those niceties is one very real question about the verdict. However, remember that the jury also was concerned that Nancy had asked that they also remove references that could be construed as indicating Andersen thought the Enron release was misleading (which Duncan appparently *did* believe). It seems to me that this verdict has actually caused more commotion in *legal* circles than it has in accounting circles, because the "bad act" the jury found related not to the conduct of accountants, but rather to the actions of an attorney.
I figured this ALL ALONG. The press completely ignored her involvement and her criminal behavior. This earlier post clarifies things. ( As far as Andersens criminal actions )
Do I understand correctly that her error was in trying to withdraw her condemnation of the ENRON bookkeeping methods. I would expect this was to minimize Anderson’s apparent culpability by allowing herself to look equally culpable. That says something about the culture at AA but does not make her a villain. Do I read it right?
<<SNIP Do I read it right?
No. Her request demonstrated to the jury’s satisfaction that she was willing to alter records to influence the outcome of the future SEC investigation that she had already deduced would occur. Being willing to alter records in such a manner for the benefit of the employer for which she acted as an agent made her, to the jury, the one villain they could all agree upon. Regards, Bill
No. Her request demonstrated to the jury’s satisfaction that she was willing to alter records to influence the outcome of the future SEC investigation that she had already deduced would occur. Being willing to alter records in such a manner for the benefit of the employer for which she acted as an agent made her, to the jury, the one villain they could all agree upon.
Don’t you think she was naive (or ?) to put her request in writing?
That’s the one part of the case I didn’t get. It appeared to me that she wanted her name taken off a memo for her own personal reasons — meaning she did not want to be called as a witness. She might have wanted to protect herself as opposed to protecting her employer. To me, that would mean that SHE could be found guilty if she had been charged with a crime, but that didn’t translate to the COMPANY being found guilty. Of course, she is an agent of the company, and maybe her position was high enough that her actions could be translated to being the actions of the company as a whole, and not just an individual employee. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. Being willing to alter records in such a manner for the benefit of the employer for which she acted as an agent made her, to the jury, the one villain they could all agree upon.
That’s the one part of the case I didn’t get. It appeared to me that she wanted her name taken off a memo for her own personal reasons — meaning she did not want to be called as a witness
I believe she specifically stated that she did not want her name used, nor specific reference to consultation with legal, becasue she wanted the preserve the companies attorney client priviledge. This a a perfectly legit rationale, assuming the memo does not deny such a consultation – and I beleive it does not. It is also pretty ironic that this e-mail was in evidence because Andersen waived its attorney client priviledge anyway in an early effort to co-operate with Justice. When I first heard the jury found AA guilty becasue a staff attorney changed on euphemism in a Duncan memo (misleading) to pair of euphemisms (aggressive and unique) I thought the jury had gone off the deep end. But at least their theory of the crime has more basis in evidence than more sense than the governments theory of a widespread. conspiracy to shread. Temple’s intent was clear: To avoid giving the SEC the idea that Duncan concluded that Enron, by calling its losses from the SPE’s non-recurring against his advise, committed a crime in doing so. Without having read Duncan’;s origninal memo its hard for me to make that judgement. I don’t quarrel with the jury’s judgement that Duncan had concluded Enron commited a crime – although nobody as I recall was the least bit mislead by Enrons feeble attempt to characterize those losses as non-recurring – nobody took it seriously, not even apparently the SEC. Even if you agree with the jury that Temple’s editing of one word was criminal, its pretty absurd to find AA guilty on the basis of the faulty advise of one staff attorney with a short time on the job. I don’t fault the jury – they did as instructed.
I figured this ALL ALONG. The press completely ignored her involvement and her criminal behavior. This earlier post clarifies things. ( As far as Andersens criminal actions ) "Jurors also indicated they all agreed on one Andersen employee who was the corrupt persuader, Temple, thus nullifying the impact of the judge’s ruling yesterday that they did not all have to agree it was the same individual." — Houston Chronicle [http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/topstory2/1455557]
But right from her first congressional hearing, she came across as evasive, abusive, singing the same ’song and dance’, and stuck vigilianly to her lines. Impressive performance, but typical for criminal behavior. And OF COURSE there were many others involved, namely her bosses. But something to note is her total and complete complicity and involvement in the ‘inner circle’ of conspirators.
Nancy Temple, a creepy slimy hoodlum
That was entirely uncalled-for. "Nancy Temple, the Lawyer" would have *exactly* the same meaning in most people’s minds 
Irv
Personally, I feel pity for Ms. Temple. She didn’t profit from Enron other than getting a salary she could have gotten from a variety of other employers. She made a mistake in judgement that on face seems much less clear than a typical "criminal activity" in an effort to do her job, which is to limit company exposure. It will definately cost her a career, and it might cost her her freedom. I hope none of you ever find yourself in this situation, but if you do, you certainly don’t deserve anyone’s compassion. Chris
"Nancy Temple, the Lawyer" would have *exactly* the same meaning in most people’s minds
Now, now. This is a family NG. No profanity please. — Todd Stephens
Physically, since the thicker strings have more mass, the tension needs to be higher to tune them up to pitch. The relative bending also needs then to "more" in order to bend up more. One can see it on double-wound strings, too.
Yes, but until we determine whether bending the string the same distance on a thicker string tuned to higher tension will or will not change the tension more than doing the same to a thinner, looser string, I won’t be convinced in a mathy, formulaic sense. I expect its one of those nasty non-linear relationships intro texts tend to ignore. Perhaps a look at mechanical enginneering resources would be fruitful since they’d have to deal with tension in non-ideal strings whenever cables are used in strutcures, or strings/springs are used to provde tension in a device, and they wouldn’t always assume you can somply determine the tension by measuring freq. Random web searches have turned up nothing but frustration for me, since everyone in acoustics who’d put anything on the web seems to think the F = 1/2L sqrt(T/u) formula solves everything. Of course, measuring the characteristics of a few strings under force might help as well, but I don’t have the tools for that. In practice though, judging from my intution and experience, I’m in agreement with you and the others who’ve said you’ll have to bend farther. Although the same bend on the a thicker string tuned lower seems to produce *more* pitch change, as bending the low E the same amount as bending a high E or B will create much more pitch change for the thicker string. Also, in reality, I would imagine the question varies from guitar to guitar and bridge to bridge, since I need to re-adjust my bridge whenever I switch gauges, *especially* if I keep the same tuning. That would have an effect on bending properties as well. I would like to check out Dave’s guitar album.
Yeah, that’s what I like to see! I’m a guitar player, too, from age 5 and have been in the music industry for a while. However, I’m more on the digital processing side of things.
I’m jealous, I wish I had started when I was 5. Oh well… Dave —- Check out my instrumental guitar album at: http://www.davechisholm.net (Last updated on 11.14.01)
Physically, since the thicker strings have more mass, the tension needs to be higher to tune them up to pitch. The relative bending also needs then to "more" in order to bend up more. One can see it on double-wound strings, too. Additionally, since if you look at the original strings position versus the beny position, you are actually making the string slightly longer (a hypotenuse on a triangle, albeit a small deflection), and thus the string is actually slightly longer from nut to fret than it was before, requiring (a very small) tension adjustment to compensate for the slight lengthening of the nut-to-fret length. I really like this mathematical response below by Dave. Nice job, Dave. My explanation is somewhat "down to earth", but it’s always refreshing to see someone who really digs in to the mathematical desription of the physics, too. I would like to check out Dave’s guitar album. I’m a guitar player, too, from age 5 and have been in the music industry for a while. However, I’m more on the digital processing side of things. Regards, Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric guitar, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change. Is this true, or is it just my imagination? Hmm. Need to keep in mind the basic formula F = 1/(2L) * Sqrt(T/u), where F is fundamental freq, L is length, T is tension and u is mass per unit length (ie gauge). I believe u can also be expressed as (M/L) where M is the total mass of the vibrating string. So when we bend the string, what we are changing is L and T. The new length of the string could be expressed: sqrt( (original L)^2 + (distance moved across neck)^2)) but I think it’s better to just see it as (L + dL). The tension also changes, and we can look at it as (T +dT). (dL = change in length, dT change in tension) So before we bend any strings, lets look at the two cases of having different gauge strings tuned to the same pitch on the same guitar: F = 1/(2L) * sqrt(T1*L/M1) = F = 1/(2L) * sqrt(T2*L/M2) = which implies T1/M1 = T2 / M2 now when we bend we have F = 1/(2L+dL) * sqrt((T1+dT1)*(L+dL)/M1) ?=? F = 1/(2L+dL) * sqrt((T2+dT2)*(L+dL)/M2) ?=? If there is a way to relate the dT’s (probably different in each) to our dL (which is the same in both cases) given the two different masses of the string, I think we could come up with the theoretical answer. Of course, the observation that the bridge (espically a floyd rose) or guitar itself could be bending in response to the greater tension of a heavier set of strings, and also the fact that guitar strings don’t act as ideal strings could change things more. Hmm, that’s about as close as I can get to a convincing scientific answer for now, but I’ve crossposted to couple groups which might also have the full answer. This all also assumes that both strings are either wound or both are not, since I don’t think wound and not-wound strings can be compared so easily. And perhaps it’d be better to look at the changes in length and tension as multiplications of scalars than adding a change quantity? Any takers? Dave PS – And I recently recommened Rossing’s Science of Sound book on a different thread here and now just a few days later I find it doesn’t go as deeply as I need about string vibration. Grr. —- Check out my instrumental guitar album at: http://www.davechisholm.net (Last updated on 11.14.01)
I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric guitar, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change. Is this true, or is it just my imagination?
Hmm. Need to keep in mind the basic formula F = 1/(2L) * Sqrt(T/u), where F is fundamental freq, L is length, T is tension and u is mass per unit length (ie gauge). I believe u can also be expressed as (M/L) where M is the total mass of the vibrating string. So when we bend the string, what we are changing is L and T. The new length of the string could be expressed: sqrt( (original L)^2 + (distance moved across neck)^2)) but I think it’s better to just see it as (L + dL). The tension also changes, and we can look at it as (T +dT). (dL = change in length, dT change in tension) So before we bend any strings, lets look at the two cases of having different gauge strings tuned to the same pitch on the same guitar: F = 1/(2L) * sqrt(T1*L/M1) = F = 1/(2L) * sqrt(T2*L/M2) = which implies T1/M1 = T2 / M2 now when we bend we have F = 1/(2L+dL) * sqrt((T1+dT1)*(L+dL)/M1) ?=? F = 1/(2L+dL) * sqrt((T2+dT2)*(L+dL)/M2) ?=? If there is a way to relate the dT’s (probably different in each) to our dL (which is the same in both cases) given the two different masses of the string, I think we could come up with the theoretical answer. Of course, the observation that the bridge (espically a floyd rose) or guitar itself could be bending in response to the greater tension of a heavier set of strings, and also the fact that guitar strings don’t act as ideal strings could change things more. Hmm, that’s about as close as I can get to a convincing scientific answer for now, but I’ve crossposted to couple groups which might also have the full answer. This all also assumes that both strings are either wound or both are not, since I don’t think wound and not-wound strings can be compared so easily. And perhaps it’d be better to look at the changes in length and tension as multiplications of scalars than adding a change quantity? Any takers? Dave PS – And I recently recommened Rossing’s Science of Sound book on a different thread here and now just a few days later I find it doesn’t go as deeply as I need about string vibration. Grr. —- Check out my instrumental guitar album at: http://www.davechisholm.net (Last updated on 11.14.01)
I was hoping you would ask that! When you bend, normally, you increase the tension of the string, so the pitch goes up, but at the same time, you are making the distance from the bridge to the fret longer, increasing the vibrating length of the string. If the tension were created in such a way that it was constant, however, the tension would remain the same while the vibrating length got longer, lowering the pitch.
Ahh now I see. Clever. I bet that would be really hard to implement in reality though – you’d have to hang a weight or something on a pulley pulling on the string at the bridge, rather than fixing it in place so it could lengthen or not (more likely use a spring). However, I doubt you could both use enough force there to get proper pitchs, yet also make it easy to bend with a finger. Maybe you can though. Seems like it would require very stiff strings. Probbaly easier to build an electronic guitar-ish controller and hook it up to some neat synth though. And of course, in real life we just use the whammy bar. Maybe now you can answer the questions I raised in my other reply to this thread… Dave —- Check out my instrumental guitar album at: http://www.davechisholm.net (Last updated on 11.14.01)
I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change. Is this true, or is it just my imagination?
Yes, that would be true. CW
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change. Is this true, or is it just my imagination?
Why is this? I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard! I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too. As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far. Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, that would be true. CW I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change. Is this true, or is it just my imagination?
Go back to a lighter gauge.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is this? I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard! I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too. As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far. Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam Yes, that would be true. CW I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change. Is this true, or is it just my imagination?
Why is this? I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard! I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too. As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far. Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam
Two possible factors: 1. I’ve heard it explained by a hack-physicist on this NG before that there’s something about a larger string which requires further bending. I made it through high school physics, but didn’t do well enough to make sense of the explanation, so I don’t remember exactly what it was. 2. If your guitar has a tremolo, then that’s most of your problem. On a guitar with a trem, bending one string pulls the trem down, loosening everything and requiring more string travel on a bend. The thicker the string, the more tension, the more you pull the trem down, the farther you have to bend. It’s a pain. Sparky
I have no tremelo
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is this? I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard! I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too. As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far. Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam Two possible factors: 1. I’ve heard it explained by a hack-physicist on this NG before that there’s something about a larger string which requires further bending. I made it through high school physics, but didn’t do well enough to make sense of the explanation, so I don’t remember exactly what it was. 2. If your guitar has a tremolo, then that’s most of your problem. On a guitar with a trem, bending one string pulls the trem down, loosening everything and requiring more string travel on a bend. The thicker the string, the more tension, the more you pull the trem down, the farther you have to bend. It’s a pain. Sparky
Then, your guitar, is like a bow and arrow, the guitar is bending.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have no tremelo Why is this? I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard! I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too. As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far. Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam Two possible factors: 1. I’ve heard it explained by a hack-physicist on this NG before that there’s something about a larger string which requires further bending. I made it through high school physics, but didn’t do well enough to make sense of the explanation, so I don’t remember exactly what it was. 2. If your guitar has a tremolo, then that’s most of your problem. On a guitar with a trem, bending one string pulls the trem down, loosening everything and requiring more string travel on a bend. The thicker the string, the more tension, the more you pull the trem down, the farther you have to bend. It’s a pain. Sparky
Lots of good info from the other posters. My suggestion would be not jump 2 gauges, but instead go to 11’s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is this? I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard! I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too. As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far. Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam Yes, that would be true. CW I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change. Is this true, or is it just my imagination?
Then, your guitar, is like a bow and arrow, the guitar is bending.
What would be really weird would be playing a guitar where weights were used for tension; bending a string would make the pitch go down! — << << << << << << << << << << << << << << << <<
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is this? I used to be able to do a 1 1/2 bend on the 4th string, but now when I do, the string will go right off the fretboard! I was noticing this phenomenon on my acoustic too. As if the extra resiliance of the strings didn’t make bending hard enough, now I need to deal with pushing extra far. Just call me Sysaphus. -Adam Yes, that would be true. CW I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change. Is this true, or is it just my imagination?
i’m surprised by this. i was always told that heavier strings didn;t need to be bent as far to achieve the same pitch change. anyone else heard that?
i’m surprised by this. i was always told that heavier strings didn;t need to be bent as far to achieve the same pitch change. anyone else heard that?
It all depends on how much the string gives, and how much the guitar gives. If you’re talking about going from a solid G to a wound G, that’s another issue. A wound G has much more elasticity than a solid G from a slightly lighter set, and has to be bent more to increase the pitch the same amount. — << << << << << << << << << << << << << << << <<
I recently switched from 10’s to 12’s on my electric, and of course bending is harder, but it also seems that I have to bend each string *further* to acheive the same pitch change. Is this true, or is it just my imagination
Seems true to me. I have one guitar strung with 9s and another with 11s, and it seems like, even accounting for the tension difference, you have to bend the heavier strings farther to get the same pitch change. Ed.
What would be really weird would be playing a guitar where weights were used for tension; bending a string would make the pitch go down!
What do you mean – I fail to see a situation where bending would do anything but increase the tension in a string, thereby increasing the pitch? Dave —- Check out my instrumental guitar album at: http://www.davechisholm.net (Last updated on 11.14.01)
What would be really weird would be playing a guitar where weights were used for tension; bending a string would make the pitch go down! What do you mean – I fail to see a situation where bending would do anything but increase the tension in a string, thereby increasing the pitch?
I was hoping you would ask that! When you bend, normally, you increase the tension of the string, so the pitch goes up, but at the same time, you are making the distance from the bridge to the fret longer, increasing the vibrating length of the string. If the tension were created in such a way that it was constant, however, the tension would remain the same while the vibrating length got longer, lowering the pitch. — << << << << << << << << << << << << << << << <<
It depends on where you work, I work in St. Paul, MN and the going rate is around $16.00/hr. * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
This is the going rate in Houston also, but you MUST know QuickBooks or Peachtree. Paula
It depends on where you work, I work in St. Paul, MN and the going rate is around $16.00/hr. * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find
related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
I have a question about pay rates. I have worked part-time at various places, doing the books and grants for a non-profit. Doing the books for a private hotel, doing tax returns for AARP, private people, and small companies for several years. Doing estate workups and 1099,1041’s for a trust company. I have a AA in accounting The question: What is my knowledge/ experience worth per hour? I am interviewing for a full time position and I am trying to get an idea of my value before talking salary.
Looking for someone in or near the Seattle WA area to come into a design-construction company (NT server system) and set up QBP (were 99% committed to QBP) for accounting, estimating, purchasing, etc. Any suggestions? Or, if there is another news group where I should be posting or another source of information that I could use (besides the ‘yellow pages’), please advise. Thank you for your help. Alan
Looking for someone in or near the Seattle WA area to come into a design-construction company (NT server system) and set up QBP (were 99% committed to QBP) for accounting, estimating, purchasing, etc. Any suggestions? Or, if there is another news group where I should be posting or another source of information that I could use (besides the ‘yellow pages’), please advise. Thank you for your help. Alan
Alan, By QBP I assume you mean Quick Books Pro. My office is in Olalla, Washington, about 20 miles southwest of Seattle on the Kitsap Peninsula. I know construction accounting very well. I have QBP 99 and I have some very light experience with it, but nowhere near enough to supervise a QB set-up. If you find a QB expert that is weak on construction accounting I would be interested in collaborating. Also, one of my home builder clients is presently having a QB system installed by Rebecca Bigford of Bainbridge Island. Her email is impressed with her general knowledge of industry and bookkeeping. I do not know enough about QB to form a professional opinion in that area. There are a number of news groups related to construction, however I can’t recall any discussion on any of them related to accounting. I should also disclose that I don’t spend a lot of time in any of them. You might want to post to biz.comp.accounting. It is a moderated group that deals heavily in QB issues. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://jim.hudspeth.com
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking for someone in or near the Seattle WA area to come into a design-construction company (NT server system) and set up QBP (were 99% committed to QBP) for accounting, estimating, purchasing, etc. Any suggestions? Or, if there is another news group where I should be posting or another source of information that I could use (besides the ‘yellow pages’), please advise. Thank you for your help. Alan
Hello Alan, if you’re on the eastside, I’d be happy to lend a hand, particularly in implementing Jim Hudspeth’s designs. His construction experience is over the top. I’ve beta tested some of the spreadsheet tools on his website, and came away from it impressed by his practical background. Let me know if you’re interested, * Todd F. Boyle CPA http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033 (425) 827-3107 * web ledgers, accounting ASPs, XML accounting, e-commerce, whatever.
I still dont understand the scam…… I guess I feel like an idiot if u guys are right though..why would somebody scam like that? sounds like a true story to me in which that guy is pist off at the idiots who charged them $250….. I dont know…. I’m too tired to think right now..
I still dont understand the scam…… I guess I feel like an idiot if u guys are right though..why would somebody scam like that? sounds like a true story to me in which that guy is pist off at the idiots who charged them $250….. I dont know…. I’m too tired to think right now.. Hi Mike. I don’t get this as being a *scam* either. I always thought a scam was where you got took for some money and got nothing in return. All this guy is saying is to forward that letter and recipe to as many people as possible. All you’re wasting is your time, then. Unless this is a kick-ass recipe for cookies, then it is well worth forwarding to all your friends!!!! Karen
P.H.O.B.I.A. People Helping Others Become Independent Again Off-line Panic/Anxiety Support Group Learn about us at http://community.nj.com/cc/phobia
Thanks for this Betsy and Ray, I found the story hard to believe, but I have to admit to an underlying suspicion of large corporations/commercial giants. I’m sure Cathy from P.H.O.B.I.A. would know the appropriate term for *this* particular fear : )) Birdsong
<snipped a lot
I heard this story years ago. Who cares if its true or not, makes yummy cookies so everyone make some of these tonight And enjoy with a glass of milk. Karen
Thanks Betsy, this is an easy fraud to pick out (it’s only 50 years old). If anyone feels the need to pass on outragous stories, do yourself and everyone else a favor and check them out first. There are many websited devoted to hoaxes and urban legends. It took all of 30 seconds to pull this one up:
Who cares if this is true or not? All I want to know is if anybody has tried this recipe and is it any good? Karen )) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -All the Ingredients of a Legend Dateline: 07/13/97 This is a "true story" almost everyone has heard by now — the infamous "$250 Cookie Recipe," most recently associated with the Neiman Marcus company, but which, all through the 1980s, was the bane of Mrs. Fields. By the way, the story is not true. It’s a classic urban legend. It appears to be a variant of a popular tale that Jan Brunvand has traced back as far as 1948, when the overpriced recipe produced a fudge cake, and the amount allegedly charged was $25. The current adjusted-for-inflation version (reproduced below) is still making the email rounds and shows no signs of waning, even though it has been debunked again and again over the past ten years. Are you one of the gullible ones who has forwarded this story to someone else? Gotcha! THE $250 COOKIE RECIPE Okay, everyone….a true story of justice in the good old U.S. of A. Thought y’all might enjoy this; if nothing else, it shows internet justice, if it can be called that. My daughter & I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & decided to have a small dessert. Because our family are such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie." It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and they said with a small frown, "I’m afraid not." Well, I said, would you let me buy the recipe? With a cute smile, she said, "Yes." I asked how much, and she responded, "Two fifty." I said with approval, just add it to my tab. Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00. I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe – $250.00." Boy, was I upset!! I called Neiman’s Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "two fifty," and I did not realize she meant $250.00 for a cookie recipe. I asked them to take back the recipe and reduce my bill and they said they were sorry, but because all the recipes were this expensive so not just everyone could duplicate any of our bakery recipes….the bill would stand. I waited, thinking of how I could get even or even try and get any of my money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks got my $250.00 and now I’m going to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover will have a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus for nothing. She replied, "I wish you wouldn’t do this." I said, "I’m sorry but this is the only way I feel I could get even," and I will. So, here it is, and please pass it to someone else or run a few copies….I paid for it; now you can have it for free. (Recipe may be halved.): 2 cups butter 2 tsp. soda 5 cups blended oatmeal** 2 cups brown sugar 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) 2 tsp. baking powder 2 tsp. vanilla 4 cups flour 2 cups sugar 24 oz. chocolate chips 1 tsp. salt 4 eggs 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) ** measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. Cream the butter and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder, and soda. Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees. Makes 112 cookies. Have fun!!! This is not a joke — this is a true story.. That’s it. Please, pass it along to everyone you know, single people, mailing lists, etc….. Ride free, citizen! Again, despite the admonition at the end, this is not a true story. Please don’t pass it along. As to the cookies themselves — I haven’t tried them, but by most accounts the above recipe makes damned good ones (and a lot of them). No one knows where it came from, but we do know it wasn’t from Neiman Marcus, who didn’t even sell a chocolate chip cookie until a recipe was created specifically in response to this legend. If you’re curious, you can find a few other tasty versions of both the story and the recipe at Gail’s Recipe Swap Archive. There’s also a Swedish version for your consumption. And finally, for the last word on this legend (one would hope), see Barbara Mikkelson’s detailed history, (Costs a) Fortune Cookie. Bon appetit!
Thanks for this Betsy and Ray, I found the story hard to believe, but I have to admit to an underlying suspicion of large corporations/commercial giants. I’m sure Cathy from P.H.O.B.I.A. would know the appropriate term for *this* particular fear : )) Birdsong
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For cookie lovers…true story. Another variation on an urban myth. Next thing you know, Craig Sherhold is going to send you a request for postcards so he can get into the Guiness book before he dies of terminal brain cancer. Then if that isn’t enough, you’ll hear about the forest fire that leveled acres and as they were surveying the aftermath, they found the carcass of a bird with its wings outstretched, they kicked it over and underneath were four baby birds still alive. And the list goes on. PLEASE PASS THIS TO EVERY ONE YOU Please don’t. Betsy Thanks Betsy, this is an easy fraud to pick out (it’s only 50 years old). If anyone feels the need to pass on outragous stories, do yourself and everyone else a favor and check them out first. There are many websited devoted to hoaxes and urban legends. It took all of 30 seconds to pull this one up: All the Ingredients of a Legend Dateline: 07/13/97 This is a "true story" almost everyone has heard by now — the infamous "$250 Cookie Recipe," most recently associated with the Neiman Marcus company, but which, all through the 1980s, was the bane of Mrs. Fields. By the way, the story is not true. It’s a classic urban legend. It appears to be a variant of a popular tale that Jan Brunvand has traced back as far as 1948, when the overpriced recipe produced a fudge cake, and the amount allegedly charged was $25. The current adjusted-for-inflation version (reproduced below) is still making the email rounds and shows no signs of waning, even though it has been debunked again and again over the past ten years. Are you one of the gullible ones who has forwarded this story to someone else? Gotcha! THE $250 COOKIE RECIPE Okay, everyone….a true story of justice in the good old U.S. of A. Thought y’all might enjoy this; if nothing else, it shows internet justice, if it can be called that. My daughter & I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & decided to have a small dessert. Because our family are such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie." It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and they said with a small frown, "I’m afraid not." Well, I said, would you let me buy the recipe? With a cute smile, she said, "Yes." I asked how much, and she responded, "Two fifty." I said with approval, just add it to my tab. Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00. I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe – $250.00." Boy, was I upset!! I called Neiman’s Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "two fifty," and I did not realize she meant $250.00 for a cookie recipe. I asked them to take back the recipe and reduce my bill and they said they were sorry, but because all the recipes were this expensive so not just everyone could duplicate any of our bakery recipes….the bill would stand. I waited, thinking of how I could get even or even try and get any of my money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks got my $250.00 and now I’m going to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover will have a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus for nothing. She replied, "I wish you wouldn’t do this." I said, "I’m sorry but this is the only way I feel I could get even," and I will. So, here it is, and please pass it to someone else or run a few copies….I paid for it; now you can have it for free. (Recipe may be halved.): 2 cups butter 2 tsp. soda 5 cups blended oatmeal** 2 cups brown sugar 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) 2 tsp. baking powder 2 tsp. vanilla 4 cups flour 2 cups sugar 24 oz. chocolate chips 1 tsp. salt 4 eggs 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) ** measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. Cream the butter and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder, and soda. Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees. Makes 112 cookies. Have fun!!! This is not a joke — this is a true story.. That’s it. Please, pass it along to everyone you know, single people, mailing lists, etc….. Ride free, citizen! Again, despite the admonition at the end, this is not a true story. Please don’t pass it along. As to the cookies themselves — I haven’t tried them, but by most accounts the above recipe makes damned good ones (and a lot of them). No one knows where it came from, but we do know it wasn’t from Neiman Marcus, who didn’t even sell a chocolate chip cookie until a recipe was created specifically in response to this legend. If you’re curious, you can find a few other tasty versions of both the story and the recipe at Gail’s Recipe Swap Archive. There’s also a Swedish version for your consumption. And finally, for the last word on this legend (one would hope), see Barbara Mikkelson’s detailed history, (Costs a) Fortune Cookie. Bon appetit!
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For cookie lovers…true story. Another variation on an urban myth. Next thing you know, Craig Sherhold is going to send you a request for postcards so he can get into the Guiness book before he dies of terminal brain cancer. Then if that isn’t enough, you’ll hear about the forest fire that leveled acres and as they were surveying the aftermath, they found the carcass of a bird with its wings outstretched, they kicked it over and underneath were four baby birds still alive. And the list goes on. PLEASE PASS THIS TO EVERY ONE YOU Please don’t. Betsy
Thanks Betsy, this is an easy fraud to pick out (it’s only 50 years old). If anyone feels the need to pass on outragous stories, do yourself and everyone else a favor and check them out first. There are many websited devoted to hoaxes and urban legends. It took all of 30 seconds to pull this one up: All the Ingredients of a Legend Dateline: 07/13/97 This is a "true story" almost everyone has heard by now — the infamous "$250 Cookie Recipe," most recently associated with the Neiman Marcus company, but which, all through the 1980s, was the bane of Mrs. Fields. By the way, the story is not true. It’s a classic urban legend. It appears to be a variant of a popular tale that Jan Brunvand has traced back as far as 1948, when the overpriced recipe produced a fudge cake, and the amount allegedly charged was $25. The current adjusted-for-inflation version (reproduced below) is still making the email rounds and shows no signs of waning, even though it has been debunked again and again over the past ten years. Are you one of the gullible ones who has forwarded this story to someone else? Gotcha! THE $250 COOKIE RECIPE Okay, everyone….a true story of justice in the good old U.S. of A. Thought y’all might enjoy this; if nothing else, it shows internet justice, if it can be called that. My daughter & I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & decided to have a small dessert. Because our family are such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie." It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and they said with a small frown, "I’m afraid not." Well, I said, would you let me buy the recipe? With a cute smile, she said, "Yes." I asked how much, and she responded, "Two fifty." I said with approval, just add it to my tab. Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00. I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe – $250.00." Boy, was I upset!! I called Neiman’s Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "two fifty," and I did not realize she meant $250.00 for a cookie recipe. I asked them to take back the recipe and reduce my bill and they said they were sorry, but because all the recipes were this expensive so not just everyone could duplicate any of our bakery recipes….the bill would stand. I waited, thinking of how I could get even or even try and get any of my money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks got my $250.00 and now I’m going to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover will have a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus for nothing. She replied, "I wish you wouldn’t do this." I said, "I’m sorry but this is the only way I feel I could get even," and I will. So, here it is, and please pass it to someone else or run a few copies….I paid for it; now you can have it for free. (Recipe may be halved.): 2 cups butter 2 tsp. soda 5 cups blended oatmeal** 2 cups brown sugar 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) 2 tsp. baking powder 2 tsp. vanilla 4 cups flour 2 cups sugar 24 oz. chocolate chips 1 tsp. salt 4 eggs 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) ** measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. Cream the butter and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder, and soda. Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees. Makes 112 cookies. Have fun!!! This is not a joke — this is a true story.. That’s it. Please, pass it along to everyone you know, single people, mailing lists, etc….. Ride free, citizen! Again, despite the admonition at the end, this is not a true story. Please don’t pass it along. As to the cookies themselves — I haven’t tried them, but by most accounts the above recipe makes damned good ones (and a lot of them). No one knows where it came from, but we do know it wasn’t from Neiman Marcus, who didn’t even sell a chocolate chip cookie until a recipe was created specifically in response to this legend. If you’re curious, you can find a few other tasty versions of both the story and the recipe at Gail’s Recipe Swap Archive. There’s also a Swedish version for your consumption. And finally, for the last word on this legend (one would hope), see Barbara Mikkelson’s detailed history, (Costs a) Fortune Cookie. Bon appetit!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For cookie lovers…true story. Another variation on an urban myth. Next thing you know, Craig Sherhold is going to send you a request for postcards so he can get into the Guiness book before he dies of terminal brain cancer. Then if that isn’t enough, you’ll hear about the forest fire that leveled acres and as they were surveying the aftermath, they found the carcass of a bird with its wings outstretched, they kicked it over and underneath were four baby birds still alive. And the list goes on. PLEASE PASS THIS TO EVERY ONE YOU Please don’t. Betsy
So, I guess it’s *not* true? Birdsong
For cookie lovers…true story.
Another variation on an urban myth. Next thing you know, Craig Sherhold is going to send you a request for postcards so he can get into the Guiness book before he dies of terminal brain cancer. Then if that isn’t enough, you’ll hear about the forest fire that leveled acres and as they were surveying the aftermath, they found the carcass of a bird with its wings outstretched, they kicked it over and underneath were four baby birds still alive. And the list goes on. PLEASE PASS THIS TO EVERY ONE YOU
Please don’t. Betsy
For cookie lovers…true story…. My daughter and I had just finished a salad at a Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas and decided to have a small dessert. Because both of us are = such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus cookie. It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and the = waitress said with a small frown, "I’m afraid not but, you can buy the recipe." Well, I =asked how much, and she responded, "Only two fifty, it’s a great deal!" I agreed with approval, just add it to my tab I told her. Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00. I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe – $250.00". That was outrageous! I called Neiman’s Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "two-fifty," which clearly does not mean "two hundred and fifty dollars" by any *POSSIBLE* interpretation of the phrase. Neiman-Marcus refused to budge. They would not refund my money, because according to them, "What the waitress told you is not our problem. You have already seen the = recipe. We absolutely will not refund your money at this point."I explained to her the criminal statues which govern fraud in Texas. I threatened to refer = them to the Better Business Bureau and the State Attorney General Office for = engaging in fraud. I was basically told, "Do what you want, it doesn’t matter, we’re not refunding your money." I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try and get any of my money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks =got my $250, and now I’m going to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her that =I was going to see to it that every Cookie lover in the United States with an e-mail account has a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus…for = free. She replied, "I wish you wouldn’t do this." I said, "Well, you should have thought of that before you ripped me off," and slammed down the phone on her. So here it is!!! Please, please, please pass it on to everyone you can possibly think of. I paid $250 for this…I don’t want Neiman-Marcus to *ever* get another penny off of this recipe…. NEIMAN MARCUS COOKIES (Recipe may be halved) 2 cups butter 4 cups flour 2 tsp. soda 2 cups sugar 5 cups blended oatmeal *** 24 oz. chocolate chips 2 cups brown sugar 1 tsp. salt 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) 4 eggs 2 tsp. baking powder 2 tsp. vanilla 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) 1. Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. 2. Cream the butter and both sugars. 3. Add eggs and vanilla, mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder, and soda. 4. Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. 5. Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. 6. Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees. Makes 112 cookies. Have fun!!! This is not a joke — this is a true story. Ride free citizens! PLEASE PASS THIS TO EVERY ONE YOU Donnie American Audio Visual Center I can hardly believe this. If it’s true, it’s totally outrageous, and NM should be avoided like the plague! Birdsong
For cookie lovers…true story…. My daughter and I had just finished a salad at a Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas and decided to have a small dessert. Because both of us are = such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus cookie. It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and the = waitress said with a small frown, "I’m afraid not but, you can buy the recipe." Well, I =asked how much, and she responded, "Only two fifty, it’s a great deal!" I agreed with approval, just add it to my tab I told her. Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00. I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe – $250.00". That was outrageous! I called Neiman’s Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "two-fifty," which clearly does not mean "two hundred and fifty dollars" by any *POSSIBLE* interpretation of the phrase. Neiman-Marcus refused to budge. They would not refund my money, because according to them, "What the waitress told you is not our problem. You have already seen the = recipe. We absolutely will not refund your money at this point."I explained to her the criminal statues which govern fraud in Texas. I threatened to refer = them to the Better Business Bureau and the State Attorney General Office for = engaging in fraud. I was basically told, "Do what you want, it doesn’t matter, we’re not refunding your money." I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try and get any of my money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks =got my $250, and now I’m going to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her that =I was going to see to it that every Cookie lover in the United States with an e-mail account has a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus…for = free. She replied, "I wish you wouldn’t do this." I said, "Well, you should have thought of that before you ripped me off," and slammed down the phone on her. So here it is!!! Please, please, please pass it on to everyone you can possibly think of. I paid $250 for this…I don’t want Neiman-Marcus to *ever* get another penny off of this recipe…. NEIMAN MARCUS COOKIES (Recipe may be halved) 2 cups butter 4 cups flour 2 tsp. soda 2 cups sugar 5 cups blended oatmeal *** 24 oz. chocolate chips 2 cups brown sugar 1 tsp. salt 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) 4 eggs 2 tsp. baking powder 2 tsp. vanilla 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) 1. Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. 2. Cream the butter and both sugars. 3. Add eggs and vanilla, mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking
"Such an image has no obvious relevance to the idea of eternal punishment." It does when the punishment is spiritual death. Spiritual death is separation from God. That separation burns like a fire for the eternity in which it lasts. "…but it could also mean that it has been prepared forever for this moment…" Eternal means eternal. It could imply that it also existed forever in the past. But it definitely indicates that it’ll exist forever into the future. "…not punished, or tormented, or burned; just left out." Ever been socially ostracized ? There’s pain there. Separation from God for eternity is WORSE ! "It merely reflects the fate of debtors in Jesus’s time." Jesus was giving advice not to acquire debts you couldn’t pay ? C’mon ! It’s an analogy. And in the context it clearly speaks to the afterlife. Let him who has eyes, read ! "I make that at most six short passages in the whole of the four gospels. Depends on what you mean by ’significant’." Men have been justly convicted in court on far less ! If you don’t get it on six times, two-hundred won’t do the trick. The DataRat
"Such an image has no obvious relevance to the idea of eternal punishment." It does when the punishment is spiritual death. Spiritual death is separation from God. That separation burns like a fire for the eternity in which it lasts.
But, again, I am not convinced there is compelling scriptural warrant for the idea of eternal separation of the kind you describe – or of ‘Spiritual death’ as distinct from utter destruction (for which I am sure there is warrant) "…but it could also mean that it has been prepared forever for this moment…" Eternal means eternal. It could imply that it also existed forever in the past. But it definitely indicates that it’ll exist forever into the future.
But does not necessarily mean that those exposed to it will. Also, in the context of ‘eternity’ I’m not sure how useful the concept of ‘future’ is. "…not punished, or tormented, or burned; just left out." Ever been socially ostracized ? There’s pain there. Separation from God for eternity is WORSE !
Agreed!, but see comment above "It merely reflects the fate of debtors in Jesus’s time." Jesus was giving advice not to acquire debts you couldn’t pay ? C’mon ! It’s an analogy. And in the context it clearly speaks to the afterlife. Let him who has eyes, read !
Certainly, it’s an analogy; and the trouble with analogies is that you cannot press them to mean more than they are intended to convey. The context here refers to the need for Christians to display forgiveness toward others (nothing to do, necessarily, with monetary debt) because they have themselves been forgiven much more. To adduce a picture of the afterlife from this is, I believe, mistaken. (Yes, I know I said ‘I believe’ there. Like all matters of interpretaion there is an element of judgement here). "I make that at most six short passages in the whole of the four gospels. Depends on what you mean by ’significant’." Men have been justly convicted in court on far less ! If you don’t get it on six times, two-hundred won’t do the trick.
Again, you are right. The problem is, you can reduce that to "If you don’t get it on one time, two-hundred won’t do the trick." The dangers of building a theology on one (or even six) references are substantial. To be honest I was reponding to a bit in an earlier post where you suggested that Christ spoke a great deal about punishment." God Bless Andrew
If you are reading and studying an English version of the Bible that is not the original 1611 King James version, you may be reading and studying God’s Word as edited by Satan!
My NIV Bible clearly footnotes the verse in question (1 John 5:7) and references the additional King James verbage . The additional verbage included in verse 7 of KJV doesn’t appear in any of the original Greek translations dated prior to the SIXTEENTH CENTURY! So which translation is more accurate? Also, If Satan edited my Bible and wanted this verse out, why did he leave the footnote in? Doug
Got him there ! Touch
Hi Cyd! No, I looked in the Jan Harold Brunvand book where both legends are mentioned, but the recipes aren’t there. Then I looked in Yahoo. There are about a million entries on the cake! They all seem to contain sour or buttermilk, vinegar, cocoa, and red food dye. There are also a ton of cookie recipes under "Neiman-Marcus." Baking, anyone? Geez, right now I don’t think I’d have to turn my oven on! Just set the batter out in the kitchen, and it would bake just fine! My sister has split for the holiday weekend, so I can’t ask her which one she used. She made it for a friend, who is an avid urban legends fan. Cyber Hugs! Sylvia
"Definitely an urban legend. Has appeared in numerous forms, and in books about urban legends." Hi, Dabrinah!! ;-D Yup… and it’s been around the internet for at *least 5 years that *I know of, and I’m relatively new at cyberspace… Take care, Judith "I believe that life should be lived so vividly and so intensely that thoughts of another life, or a longer life, are not necessary," Marjory Stoneman Douglas (1890-1998)
This story sounds odd. Could it be true or just one of those urban legends that go round and round. DON’T WORRY, THIS IS NOT AN ANNOYING CHAIN LETTER, AND YOU DON’T HAVE TO FORWARD THIS TO A MILLION OTHER PEOPLE….JUST ENJOY. My daughter & I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & decided to have a small dessert. Because both of us are such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie". (EDITORIAL COMMENT: Neiman’s is a VERY EXPENSIVE department store) It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and the waitress said with a small frown, "I’m afraid not". "Well", I said, "would you let me buy the recipe?" With a cute smile, she said, "Yes." I asked how much, and she responded, "only two fifty, it’s a great deal!" I said with approval, just add it to my tab." Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00. I looked again and I knew I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe $250.00." That’s outrageous! I called Neiman’s Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "two-fifty," which clearly does not mean "two hundred and fifty dollars" by any POSSIBLE interpretation of the phrase. Neiman-Marcus refused to budge. They would not refund my money, because, according to them, "What the waitress told you is not our problem. You have already seen the recipe – we absolutely will not refund your money at this point." I explained to her the criminal statutes that govern fraud in Texas, I threatened to refer them to the Better Business Bureau and the State’s Attorney General for engaging in fraud. I was basically told, "Do what you want, we don’t give a crap, and we’re not refunding your money." I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try and get any of my money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks got my $250, and now I’m going to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover in the United States with an e-mail account has a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus… for free. She replied, "I wish you wouldn’t do this." I said, "Well, you should have thought of that before you ripped me off", and slammed down the phone on her. So, here it is!!! Please, please, please pass it on to everyone you can possibly think of. I paid $250 dollars for this… I don’t want Neiman-Marcus to ever get another penny off of this recipe… (Recipe may be halved): 2 cups butter 4 cups flour 2 tsp. Soda 2 cups sugar 5 cups blended oatmeal 24 oz. chocolate chips 2 cups brown sugar 1 tsp. Salt 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) 4 eggs 2 tsp. baking powder 2 tsp. Vanilla 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. Cream the butter and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder and soda. Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees F. Makes 112 cookies. Enjoy baking the most expensive cookie in the world – FREE !! THIS IS TRUE –PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERY PERSON YOU KNOW WHO HAS AN E-MAIL ADDRESS.
"Annie" <peart…@nospam.icon.co.za> wrote: > DON’T WORRY, THIS IS NOT AN ANNOYING CHAIN LETTER, AND YOU DON’T > HAVE TO FORWARD THIS TO A MILLION OTHER PEOPLE
<snip> >PLEASE SENDTHIS TO EVERY PERSON YOU KNOW WHO HAS AN E-MAIL ADDRESS.
sheesh… i sure am glad this wasn’t one of those annoying chain letters! ;o) aileen (a…@datasync.com)
>This story sounds odd. Could it be true or just one of those urban legends
Definitely an urban legend. Has appeared in numerous forms, and in books about urban legends.
But the cookies are delicious! My husband loves them…. Cathy from Illinois At 04:38 PM 7/1/98 GMT, you wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>This story sounds odd. Could it be true or just one of those urban legends >Definitely an urban legend. Has appeared in numerous forms, and in books about >urban legends.
Hi Annie! This is an old urban legend. It has gone from "Waldorf Astoria Red Velvet Cake," "Mrs. Field’s Cookies," and now Neiman-Marcus Cookies. I’ll bet there are other forms of it out there somewhere. The "Red Velvet Cake" legend is in one of Jan Harold Brunvand’s (sp?) urban legends books. Try looking it up Online! I’m going to now! Take care! Sylvia BTW, my sister made the "Red Velvet Cake" recipe in the book and said it was great!
Sylvia, Would you happen to have the Red Velvet Cake or Mrs Fields recipies? Cyberhugs, Cyd
I’m sure the story is bogus, urban legend, but the big question remains: Has anyone made the recipe in this version of the story and are the cookies good enough to earn the Niemann Marcus name?On 1 Jul 1998 13:55:06 GMT, "Annie" <peart…@nospam.icon.co.za> wrote: [snip] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->(Recipe may be halved): > 2 cups butter >4 cups flour > 2 tsp. Soda > 2 cups sugar > 5 cups blended oatmeal > 24 oz. chocolate chips > 2 cups brown sugar > 1 tsp. Salt > 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) > 4 eggs > 2 tsp. baking powder > 2 tsp. Vanilla > 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) > Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. Cream the butter >and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, >salt, baking powder and soda. Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. >Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. Bake for >10 minutes at 375 degrees F. Makes 112 cookies. Enjoy baking the most >expensive cookie in the world – …
[snip] Mike malv…@stlnet.com http://home.stlnet.com/~malvern
On 1 Jul 1998 16:38:24 GMT, dabri…@aol.com (Dabrinah) wrote: >>This story sounds odd. Could it be true or just one of those urban legends >Definitely an urban legend. Has appeared in numerous forms, and in books about >urban legends.
Wait a minute! I copied the recipe and compared it my wife’s. Nieman-Marcus may have stolen it. Donn
I looked at the ingredients for your cookie recipe and pulled out my file for Mrs. Fields Cookies which someone in our OKC paper sent in with the same type of story. You’re right, it is a great cookie. You might send your story to your local paper with the recipe. I used to live in Ft. Worth, TX. Enjoyed living there, but I think it’s hotter in the summer than Okla. City, which is not very good on MS. My little brother lives in that area and he keeps his central air at 85+ in the summer, so I don’t go over there in the summer unless he agrees to lower the temp. Yours Judy R. Annie <peart…@nospam.icon.co.za> wrote in article <01bda4ea$36b9f120$LocalH…@peartree.dial-up.net>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This story sounds odd. Could it be true or just one of those urban legends > that go round and round. > That’s outrageous! I called Neiman’s Accounting Dept. and told them the > waitress said it was "two-fifty," which clearly does not mean "two hundred > and fifty dollars" by any POSSIBLE interpretation of the phrase. > I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or > even try and get any of my money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks got > my $250, and now I’m going to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her > that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover in the United States > with an e-mail account has a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus… > for free. She replied, "I wish you wouldn’t do this." I said, > "Well, you should have thought of that before you ripped me off", and > slammed down the phone on her. So, here it is!!! Please, please, please > pass it on to everyone you can possibly think of. I paid $250 dollars for > this… I don’t want Neiman-Marcus to ever get another penny off of this > recipe… > (Recipe may be halved): > 2 cups butter > 4 cups flour > 2 tsp. Soda > 2 cups sugar > 5 cups blended oatmeal > 24 oz. chocolate chips > 2 cups brown sugar > 1 tsp. Salt > 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) > 4 eggs > 2 tsp. baking powder > 2 tsp. Vanilla > 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) > Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. Cream the butter > and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, > salt, baking powder and soda. Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. > Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. Bake for > 10 minutes at 375 degrees F. Makes 112 cookies. Enjoy baking the most > expensive cookie in the world – FREE !! THIS IS TRUE –PLEASE SEND > THIS TO EVERY PERSON YOU KNOW WHO HAS AN E-MAIL ADDRESS.
In a message dated 98-07-01 10:12:17 EDT, you write: << This story sounds odd. Could it be true or just one of those urban legends that go round and round. >> Hi cookie lovers, The receipe sounds great and was on the ng last year, When I gave it to some co-workers, I was told they had heard the same story, but it was Mrs. FFields cookie receipe. Edee
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Mike Malvern wrote: > I’m sure the story is bogus, urban legend, but the big > question remains: > Has anyone made the recipe in this version of the story and > are the cookies good enough to earn the Niemann Marcus name?On > 1 Jul 1998 13:55:06 GMT, "Annie" <peart…@nospam.icon.co.za> > wrote: > [snip] > >(Recipe may be halved): > > 2 cups butter > >4 cups flour > > 2 tsp. Soda > > 2 cups sugar > > 5 cups blended oatmeal > > 24 oz. chocolate chips > > 2 cups brown sugar > > 1 tsp. Salt > > 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) > > 4 eggs > > 2 tsp. baking powder > > 2 tsp. Vanilla > > 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) > > Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. Cream the butter > >and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, > >salt, baking powder and soda. Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. > >Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. Bake for > >10 minutes at 375 degrees F. Makes 112 cookies. Enjoy baking the most > >expensive cookie in the world – … > [snip] > Mike malv…@stlnet.com http://home.stlnet.com/~malvern
I made this recipie and my family flipped!! They’re a nice change from regular toll house. Janet Dimock
Now, this fellow Rich has some good points– that you should definitely seek a neurologist or neurosurgeon for a head injury. That is a serious medical condition that needs immediate medical (that is, M.D./western) intervention. While I am open to the possibility that homeopathy may help some people, either as a therapy in itself or as an ADJUNCT to biomedicine, I also realize that biomedicine is absolutely essential in most critical, serious conditions (as yours seems to be.) That being said, I wonder why Rich seems so determined to militantly BASH and DISMISS even the POSSIBILITY that homeopathy MAY be useful.
I realize that you think that I TOTALLY dismiss homeopathy as not useful for anything. Actually I DO believe that in many cases individuals with minor problems would benefit from homeopathy or ANY other alternative modality due to the placebo response (which is not well understood). Too many people too quickly turn to drugs when they are not really needed. Sometimes doing nothing is better than taking drugs. The trick is knowing when to do which. My major concern is those who think that homeopathy can supplant conventional medicine for severe conditions in which timely diagnosis and treatment is essential. While I agree with him that many in the so-called "alternative" community are quick to dismiss those who have not received "cures" via their methods, he seems to be just as closed-minded in the opposite direction.
I have said repeatedly that if placebo controlled double blind studies that are replicated independently indicate that homeopathy works better than placebo then I will reconsider my position. I like to think of myself as open minded but not so open minded that my brains fall out. There is a difference between open mindedness and gullibility. What is needed today is a group of people whose eyes are open to POSSIBILITIES, yet remain SKEPTICAL enough to make real strides forward in finding those modalities that truly work– and who are willing to have an open, critical, unbiased, yet RESPECTFUL dialogue with those of ALL opinions.
I am all for doing studies to test the effectiveness for the therapy. I remain skeptical at this time however. Aloha,
Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Now, this fellow Rich has some good points– that you should definitely seek a neurologist or neurosurgeon for a head injury. That is a serious medical condition that needs immediate medical (that is, M.D./western) intervention. While I am open to the possibility that homeopathy may help some people, either as a therapy in itself or as an ADJUNCT to biomedicine, I also realize that biomedicine is absolutely essential in most critical, serious conditions (as yours seems to be.) That being said, I wonder why Rich seems so determined to militantly BASH and DISMISS even the POSSIBILITY that homeopathy MAY be useful. While I agree with him that many in the so-called "alternative" community are quick to dismiss those who have not received "cures" via their methods, he seems to be just as closed-minded in the opposite direction. What is needed today is a group of people whose eyes are open to POSSIBILITIES, yet remain SKEPTICAL enough to make real strides forward in finding those modalities that truly work– and who are willing to have an open, critical, unbiased, yet RESPECTFUL dialogue with those of ALL opinions. What are NOT needed are those, both onthe "left" (militant "alternative" types) and the "right" (militnat "biomedical" types) who feel the need to dismiss out of hand all those who do not agree with them. We’re all in this together, and we’re all doing the best we can. Of course these are just my own opinions… glad to hear yours…
I second those emotions. Syd
Have you thought of a second opinion? i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan
Coffee does not antidote everything.
Now, this fellow Rich has some good points– that you should definitely seek a neurologist or neurosurgeon for a head injury. That is a serious medical condition that needs immediate medical (that is, M.D./western) intervention. While I am open to the possibility that homeopathy may help some people, either as a therapy in itself or as an ADJUNCT to biomedicine, I also realize that biomedicine is absolutely essential in most critical, serious conditions (as yours seems to be.) That being said, I wonder why Rich seems so determined to militantly BASH and DISMISS even the POSSIBILITY that homeopathy MAY be useful. While I agree with him that many in the so-called "alternative" community are quick to dismiss those who have not received "cures" via their methods, he seems to be just as closed-minded in the opposite direction. What is needed today is a group of people whose eyes are open to POSSIBILITIES, yet remain SKEPTICAL enough to make real strides forward in finding those modalities that truly work– and who are willing to have an open, critical, unbiased, yet RESPECTFUL dialogue with those of ALL opinions. What are NOT needed are those, both onthe "left" (militant "alternative" types) and the "right" (militnat "biomedical" types) who feel the need to dismiss out of hand all those who do not agree with them. We’re all in this together, and we’re all doing the best we can. Of course these are just my own opinions… glad to hear yours… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan Hi Dan, I think you should go back to your homeopath and shout at him. Complaining to strangers will do you no good and not relieve your anxiety. But shouting at him is SURE to do a lot of good:-) I took my kid to a homeopathic MD about 4 years ago and during the interview he told me one day the kid would be able to carry his remedy for relief and that is all that he would need for the most part. In your dreams I thought- all I wanted was a good night sleep every few days -you will understand this if you know anybody with a kid with asthma -so any improvement would have been fine by me. Well, four years later it has happened my kid is able to use a remedy instead of a puffer and he is rarely needs his remedy. That is great that your kid is doing well. Many children "outgrow" their asthma so it is hardly clear that the homeopathy was the reason for the improvement. But it really does not matter as your child is doing well. Another thing I will tell you the aggravation you experienced is not uncommon if the remedy is well matched. Perhaps you could share with us how to distinguish aggravation due to a "healing crisis" from aggravation due to accumulation of blood in the brain??? Do you think that your average homeopath (with no formal medical training) can distinguish the two??? There is lots more to this, you will have to talk to your homeopath. Yes there is a lot more to this but will the homeopath have the knowledge to understand exactly what is involved after a brain injury. Also, this is what is so funny about the arguments that what can be in a remedy after all it is so dilute it is nonexistent etc. – people do have reactions to them and sometimes it is unpleasant. What do you think they are reacting to? Impurities in the homeopathic remedy perhaps?? A worsening of their condition due to lack of treatment? Or some mysterious energy force contained in the homeopathic remedy due to the dilution and succussion??? Must be the latter:-) Usually though, even though some things come back you handle it better in other words you should have felt better even though you had an aggravation and it appears this did not happen in you case. How can you possibly say he should have felt better???? Do you have a frigging clue what his problem is????? Do you think homeopathy can treat a subdural hematoma??? On second thought you probably do. Also, there is a law of cure one part of which goes something like this – you will experience your symptoms in reverse order to their original appearance. Law?? Theory perhaps?? Fantasy more likely. There is lots more to this. Talk to you homeopath. He should listen and explain things to you if he is a qualified reputable homeopath. Don’t take another remedy until you know exactly what to expect from the remedy. How does ANYONE know what to expect from a remedy EXACTLY. Everyone is different and it is not predictable how people will react with 100% certainty. My nephew went to a homepath for a chest condition and the homeopath gave him a remedy and then proceeded to describe what my nephew could expect by way of symptoms ie first you will experience etc. Well, that is exactly how my nephew’s illness progressed after the remedy and it really blew him away. Do u think that maybe your nephew is suggestible and if the homeopath described another set of symptoms that he may have had those??? Keep an open mind. You should have read up on homeopathy before you tried it so you had some idea of what it is and what questions to ask. If he read up on it he may not have even tried it. You should have some confidence in your homeopath’s ability to help you. Why?? Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan
Hi Dan, I think you should go back to your homeopath and shout at him. Complaining to strangers will do you no good and not relieve your anxiety. I took my kid to a homeopathic MD about 4 years ago and during the interview he told me one day the kid would be able to carry his remedy for relief and that is all that he would need for the most part. In your dreams I thought- all I wanted was a good night sleep every few days -you will understand this if you know anybody with a kid with asthma -so any improvement would have been fine by me. Well, four years later it has happened my kid is able to use a remedy instead of a puffer and he is rarely needs his remedy. Before we saw our homeopathic doctor, we had used homeopathy but mainly what is referred to as polypharmacy not individualized treatment. Another thing I will tell you the aggravation you experienced is not uncommon if the remedy is well matched. There is lots more to this, you will have to talk to your homeopath. Also, this is what is so funny about the arguments that what can be in a remedy after all it is so dilute it is nonexistent etc. – people do have reactions to them and sometimes it is unpleasant. Usually though, even though some things come back you handle it better in other words you should have felt better even though you had an aggravation and it appears this did not happen in you case. Also, there is a law of cure one part of which goes something like this – you will experience your symptoms in reverse order to their original appearance. There is lots more to this. Talk to you homeopath. He should listen and explain things to you if he is a qualified reputable homeopath. Don’t take another remedy until you know exactly what to expect from the remedy. My nephew went to a homepath for a chest condition and the homeopath gave him a remedy and then proceeded to describe what my nephew could expect by way of symptoms ie first you will experience etc. Well, that is exactly how my nephew’s illness progressed after the remedy and it really blew him away. You should have read up on homeopathy before you tried it so you had some idea of what it is and what questions to ask. Maybe you could find someone who has also used remedies to talk to. Homeopathy is a different approach from the it’s a symptom -kill it approach. Also, not everything can be cured depending on circumstances. You should have also discussed this with your homeopath ie what can you expect at best from homeopathic treatment or what does your homeopath expect to achieve given your present condition. You should have some confidence in your homeopath’s ability to help you. I hope this helps a bit. If you have a specific question about agarius I will try to find the answer for you. Angela
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan Hi Dan, I think you should go back to your homeopath and shout at him. Complaining to strangers will do you no good and not relieve your anxiety.
But shouting at him is SURE to do a lot of good:-) I took my kid to a homeopathic MD about 4 years ago and during the interview he told me one day the kid would be able to carry his remedy for relief and that is all that he would need for the most part. In your dreams I thought- all I wanted was a good night sleep every few days -you will understand this if you know anybody with a kid with asthma -so any improvement would have been fine by me. Well, four years later it has happened my kid is able to use a remedy instead of a puffer and he is rarely needs his remedy.
That is great that your kid is doing well. Many children "outgrow" their asthma so it is hardly clear that the homeopathy was the reason for the improvement. But it really does not matter as your child is doing well. Another thing I will tell you the aggravation you experienced is not uncommon if the remedy is well matched.
Perhaps you could share with us how to distinguish aggravation due to a "healing crisis" from aggravation due to accumulation of blood in the brain??? Do you think that your average homeopath (with no formal medical training) can distinguish the two??? There is lots more to this, you will have to talk to your homeopath.
Yes there is a lot more to this but will the homeopath have the knowledge to understand exactly what is involved after a brain injury. Also, this is what is so funny about the arguments that what can be in a remedy after all it is so dilute it is nonexistent etc. – people do have reactions to them and sometimes it is unpleasant.
What do you think they are reacting to? Impurities in the homeopathic remedy perhaps?? A worsening of their condition due to lack of treatment? Or some mysterious energy force contained in the homeopathic remedy due to the dilution and succussion??? Must be the latter:-) Usually though, even though some things come back you handle it better in other words you should have felt better even though you had an aggravation and it appears this did not happen in you case.
How can you possibly say he should have felt better???? Do you have a frigging clue what his problem is????? Do you think homeopathy can treat a subdural hematoma??? On second thought you probably do. Also, there is a law of cure one part of which goes something like this – you will experience your symptoms in reverse order to their original appearance.
Law?? Theory perhaps?? Fantasy more likely. There is lots more to this. Talk to you homeopath. He should listen and explain things to you if he is a qualified reputable homeopath. Don’t take another remedy until you know exactly what to expect from the remedy.
How does ANYONE know what to expect from a remedy EXACTLY. Everyone is different and it is not predictable how people will react with 100% certainty. My nephew went to a homepath for a chest condition and the homeopath gave him a remedy and then proceeded to describe what my nephew could expect by way of symptoms ie first you will experience etc. Well, that is exactly how my nephew’s illness progressed after the remedy and it really blew him away.
Do u think that maybe your nephew is suggestible and if the homeopath described another set of symptoms that he may have had those??? Keep an open mind. You should have read up on homeopathy before you tried it so you had some idea of what it is and what questions to ask.
If he read up on it he may not have even tried it. You should have some confidence in your homeopath’s ability to help you.
Why?? Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
I suggest you don’t take anything for your problem.
Oh is THIS what you suggest "Dr." Liz. You have not seen this person, you have not taken a history, you have not done a physical examination and yet you glibly tell him "to take NOTHING". Perhaps it will go away in time, like most symptoms.
Oh maybe he will die as happens sometimes. But you are quite correct that with time most symptoms go away. Wonder if just maybe that is what is happening with homeopathic remedies???? You go to a homeopath and they give you a remedy and it does not work. They try another remedy and that does not work. Finally after a few weeks the third remedy works!! Voila. It was the third remedy that did it. It certainly was not the body just healing on its own as it often does. No point in subjecting yourself to medicine that don’t work, is there?
How about going to a physician , getting a THOUROUGH evaluation, accurate diagnosis and appropriate treatment? However, if you went to see a professional, maybe they could find out the CAUSE of your problem which may then show the way to the cure?
Finally!!! As an afterthought you recommend seeing a professional to find the cause. Now what kind of professional do you recommend?? An iridologist, a chiropracter, an aromatherapist????? You think a neurologist or neurosurgeon would be useful given a head injury? Any responsible health care provider when told that a person has a head injury with severe cognitive dysfunction is totally irresponsible if they don’t refer to a qualified neurologic specialist. But this troll is effectively demonstrating how reluctant the alternatavists are in referring out to a physician and how incredibly dangerous it is to rely on an alternatavist for your primary health care. Aloha, Rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Liz i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan
Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan << by the way, i took 10m of agaricus diluted it with 4 oz of water and took 2 eye droppers full per day,,, is this tooo much? can this be the reason why it did what it did? thanks
Is this what the doctor asked you to do? I would follow the doctor’s guidelines. For how many days did you take? Even if you think it is too much and is causing a "proving", it should subside when you stop the medicine for a while. I have not heard of irreversible "provings" that you seem to imply. The worsening of symptoms could be due to something else and thus a coincidence. I would check out with a traditional (allopathic) doc to make sure there is nothing else wrong. My impression was that homeopathy may take 3-4 visits over a couple of months or more to work. Sometimes the medicines do not match exactly to the symptoms, sometimes the symptoms change as the case progresses and have to be treated with other homeopathic medicines (remember homeopathy treats persons and symptoms, not diseases). If you are not happy with the doc and still want to give homeopathy a try, you could go to another doc you are comfortable with. Good luck. keny (not a doc)
I suggest you don’t take anything for your problem. Perhaps it will go away in time, like most symptoms. No point in subjecting yourself to medicine that don’t work, is there? However, if you went to see a professional, maybe they could find out the CAUSE of your problem which may then show the way to the cure? Liz i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan
If I had a patient do what you’ve done, I would promptly write them a referral to two or three other doctors who weren’t neccessarily my friends, and bid you farewell. why would you do that? according to your above statement, in essence youre saying that… this homeopathic remedy may have caused harm or may not….BUT that if a patient was upset about the results you would tell them to take a hike and send them
elswhere??? ethical, real ethical… write back though bye
quote "by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not, work, the damage is done", NOW, YOU STATE "its not like i drank tons of coffee in order to antidote… i went off the AGARICUS and drank a cup per day… whats wrong with
that??" either, thou protests too much, you are off your rocker, or something is really wrong here!!! Let’s start again… Tell the WHOLE story, perhaps just the truth, NOT the HYSTERIA. BTW, I hope this isn’t going to court, any attorney would have a field day with this type of
i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan <<
by the way, i took 10m of agaricus diluted it with 4 oz of water and took 2 eye droppers full per day,,, is this tooo much? can this be the reason why it did what it did? thanks
If I had a patient do what you’ve done, I would promptly write them a referral to two or three other doctors who weren’t neccessarily my friends, and bid you farewell.
why would you do that? its not like i drank tons of coffee in order to antidote… i went off the AGARICUS and drank a cup per day… whats wrong with that?? according to your above statement, in essence youre saying that… this homeopathic remedy may have caused harm or may not….BUT that if a patient was upset about the results you would tell them to take a hike and send them elswhere??? ethical, real ethical… write back though bye
The people on this list don’t want to HEAR about failures with herbs or homeopathic treatments. They BURY the failures and block them out of their conscious minds. You may need to see a regular Medical Dr. if you haven’t already and if you have then I’m sorry for suggesting one. I wish you well… — Also Please KNOW what you are taking and the reasons for it! Carol ….. **In a Podiatrist’s window: "Time wounds all heels."** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. -Dan
i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again?
Let’s be fair, often when either I or someone I know has a medical problem, such as a side effect or the treatment is not working, we are told by just about ALL health care providers to return for follow-up and see if something else will work better, or if he/she can help in another way…. Just because it is a homeopath, don’t they deserve the same consideration? This happens in ALL types of health care! this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan
Dan, Who says drinking "tons" of coffee would help your condition??? I honestly do NOT know the first thing about homeopathy, but in general health knowledge, drinking lots of coffee helps NOBODY but Juan Valdez. I don’t know the first thing about your condition, but it sounds quite over-reactionary… How do you know the "worsening" is permanent and the damage is done???
Dan, there are only a few types of questions that a professional of any caliber can answer given an unknown case on a newsgroup, and your situation does not call for an offhand snap reply by anyone. As a matter of fact, knowing nothing about you other than the character of your current annoyance, I could see Agaricus possibly being an appropriate remedy – _in a certain homeopathic potency_, which could only be determined by a well trained and skilled _analyst_, and might very likely require adjustment according to your response or lack of. This is simply the practise of clinical medicine, and holds equally true for the complementary approaches of nutrition, acupuncture, homeopathy and herbology. You’re not doing yourself a favor to second guess any doctor who you have chosen to see in the first place, and jump at suggestions to your desperate inquiries in this forum. In your paranoid rush to antidote, you’ve basically screwed up the best first chance a professional might have had to evaluate how you were influenced (or not) by their first remedy selection. I don’t have a clue what sort of brain damage you have (or maybe only think you have) and I’m not about to rattle off a dozen likely possible scenarios if for no other reason than not wanting to contribute to any psychogenic component. If I had a patient do what you’ve done, I would promptly write them a referral to two or three other doctors who weren’t neccessarily my friends, and bid you farewell. On the assumption that some doctor already told you there is brain damage, then you should still be under their care, and especially if it is a recent injury under their _responsibility_, which still means it’s your responsibility to follow their instructions about followup care and return visits, which are usually advised when there is a change of condition. Unless it’s been determined you have an operable tumor, it is unlikely that mainstream physicians have offered you anything curative other than physical re-training therapy (which probably _is_ appropriate) and/or drug maintenance which is just as likely to bring on a gamut of aggravation and unpleasant secondary symptoms. Which is probably what brought you to the homeopath anyway, so your public critical expression here is unwarranted. There are few if any competant homeopaths at a professional level ever writing in this forum, and doctors do not generally discuss the complex issues of case management with laypersons, ever, anywhere. There are a few persons shooting off their opinions in this newsgroup about acupuncture, herbs and homeopathy with _no_ professional level training or experience on these vast and difficult subjects. There has recently been a deluge of ignorant and misguided (although I’m sure well intentioned) statements. I don’t have the time or inclination to try to bring people up to speed on subjects they don’t have any specific background in. Intelligent and educated persons tend to think that everything can be synopsized on their own terms. This just isn’t the case with traditional medical systems ; I can’t impart comprehension that has taken me as long as fifteen years of study and practise to gradually _get_. My opinion is that the remedy you took _could not_ do the physical damage you claim, unless it was a physical dosage potency (unlikely). So-called _homeopathic aggravation_ is always temporary, and I personally doubt claims of it ever lasting more than a few weeks. An experienced doctor will know how to manage the situation, which could (at worst) involve a choice to grin-and-bear-it for a while, wait for a clear picture of another choice to emerge, or at the other extreme do something to antidote. Or, given the onset of certain neurological signs (which _many_, but not all Licensed alternative practitioners are qualified to make competant triage assessment of), refer you out to a specialist or the ER immediately (who may very well then play up suspicion of malpractise at the hands of a _quack_, even though in fact they would most likely believe there’s not a chance in the world that a homeopathic dilution could have anything to do with the symptom progression). It is NOT UNLIKELY that the worsening you experienced is merely coincidental to taking the remedy, which especially in higher _potency_ can only be considered an _influence_ to your own self-healing mechanisms (and probably a very short-lived one at that), because there is no evidence of or reason to assume drug-like action. It could be said that the whole point of both homeopathic treatment (homeopath-Y is only about _analysis_ as far as I’m concerned), and acupuncture needling is to provide the slightest possible specific stimulus which can _influence / enable_ the person’s own curative processes. That’s all. ______ Also, Nospam (Carol) wrote : Also Please KNOW what you are taking and the reasons for it! <<
That’s nice in theory. Now try applying that to 90% of the procedures and treatments of mainstream medicine, and what will you get ? . . . . . . You’ll get meaningless contrived statistics, and idiotic survey polls purporting to rate _customer satisfaction_. Of course it’s good to try to be aware of and understand everything important in your life, including how your car works, what lawyers and accountants do, where electricity comes from, where the garbage goes to, etc.. Many people don’t have a clue, and the rest of us typically find a point where we realize that much of the depth of whatever matter is either beyond our comprehension or beyond the education we’re willing to invest. So that’s why we have professions. Simplistic consumer advocate strategies all too often wind up in some way being opposed to the personal responsibility that brought them about ( ! ) Specifically regarding the rational for a particular treatment using acupuncture, chinese herbal formulas, or homeopathy, much of the time it is absolutely not possible to communicate this properly to a patient, and efforts to do so (beyond the type of statement I made above about _influence_) only lead to misunderstanding and the type of misinformed comments that I see pop up frequently in this forum. Joe Reid i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury
and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan <<
i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan
Dan Not having seen your earlier post, I hope this isn’t coming too late. You need to find a physician who incorporates alternative and complementary medicine in his/her practice. A homeopath may not be enough to help you through recovery from brain injury. I know I recommend this site quite a lot but it’s one of the few reputable sources for balanced medical information and has a directory to help you find the right healer: http://cgi.pathfinder.com/drweil/ Good luck, C.L. Getz Please change "nospam" to "net" in e-mail address to reply.
i wrote to this list earlier about taking AGARICUS for a brain injury and it making my symptoms worse… Well it has been 3 weeks or more since the worsening of the symptoms and i have seen NO improvement since then.. NONE.. i called my homeopath who is reputable and all he said was to come back in and try something else…. WHY? so i can have the same thing happen again? this is pure hell for me and i woudl love for some input from someone out here.. thanks!!! by the way i have drank tons of coffee and antidoting the stuff will not work, the damage is done!! -Dan