Question:

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Try to deduce that from the root of STAT and you get stasis or status or static which means nothing close..

The Latin word, ’statim,’ means ‘now.’  –Rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you know when the term "STAT" became common? (I’m pretty sure it wasn’t around in 1980, but don’t know.) *+-"Stat" does not mean fast or as soon as possible.  It means "now". Agreed on TA.. As someone who is highly interdisciplinary, it gets pretty nutty when I see the same acronym meaning different things across different fields.. – = –     Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia’81+, Bio$trategist       BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm   —{Nothing herein constitutes advice.  Everything fully disclaimed.}—    [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  <SNIP The people who receive medical orders know the terms in which medical orders are written.  Medical orders are written in those terms because the terms are precise and well understood.  Naturally, if the patient is going to be given a supply of medication to be self-administered, the pharmacist should translate the orders into the patient’s native language, whatever it is. I have never heard of a medication caused by the terms of the medical order being misinterpreted.  Many medications result from the similarity of some tradenames for drugs.  That source of error could be removed by using generic or scientific names for the drugs.  But that would make the orders even more obscure to general readers. Here’s some examples of abbreviations that are recommended not to be used as well as the possible mis-interpretations.  This list was not compiled based on somebody’s good idea, it’s based on a compilation of actual events that have happened across the country and reported to The Institute for Safe Medication Practices (ISMP) and/or FDA (Food and Drug Administration): http://www.ismp.org/msaarticles/dangerous%20abbrev.doc.htm

Glancing through the list I get a different impression. It says more about the lack of training pupils get in the pre-College/Universtity setting on exact sciences. What is a dram where there is SI ? Why is there no easy to use scientific notation software for most widely used wordprocessors? Anneke

Response:

*+-Think about it like this: Say Dutch medical students would learn common *+-names for muscles. So, the only name for the trapezoid muscle they’d then *+-know is "Monnikskap spier", or "Monk’s cap muscle" (loosely translated). By You have a good point, however, that point has been used as an excuse to hide the worst abuses. *+- again.  Scientists  and lawyers today  have the worst  writing skills. *+-You think so? I just think that scientist, lawyers and businesswriters all No, business writers actually have a different incentive. If they are understood by ordinary folk, they make more money. Believe me, I resisted the concepts of clearer writing for most of my life.. our self-promoting self-propogating educational system made sure of it..                                 – = –     Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia’81+, Bio$trategist               BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm   —{Nothing herein constitutes advice.  Everything fully disclaimed.}—    [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]

Response:

The difference is that in aviation, the butt on the line is the /pilot’s/, not someone else’s.  So howcome they developed more jargon in a few decades than medicine has in centuries?

I don’t know but may be they are trying to catch up with those of us in the health care professions. Denise

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP The people who receive medical orders know the terms in which medical orders are written.  Medical orders are written in those terms because the terms are precise and well understood.  Naturally, if the patient is going to be given a supply of medication to be self-administered, the pharmacist should translate the orders into the patient’s native language, whatever it is. I have never heard of a medication caused by the terms of the medical order being misinterpreted.  Many medications result from the similarity of some tradenames for drugs.  That source of error could be removed by using generic or scientific names for the drugs.  But that would make the orders even more obscure to general readers. Here’s some examples of abbreviations that are recommended not to be used as well as the possible mis-interpretations.  This list was not compiled based on somebody’s good idea, it’s based on a compilation of actual events that have happened across the country and reported to The Institute for Safe Medication Practices (ISMP) and/or FDA (Food and Drug Administration): http://www.ismp.org/msaarticles/dangerous%20abbrev.doc.htm

  The idea that jargon is ‘precise’ is simply nonsense.  It is jargon for prestige purposes.  Translation of prescriptions from pseud-Latin is just another way to cause confusion and endanger the patient. — George Conklin, Durham, NC:  Medicare For All Ages If HMOs ran the post office, the AMA (American Mail Association) would declare that getting mail was a privilege, not a right and 43 million Americans would get no mail delivery.  

Response:

Try to deduce that from the root of STAT and you get stasis or status or static which means nothing close.. Do you know when the term "STAT" became common? (I’m pretty sure it wasn’t around in 1980, but don’t know.) *+-"Stat" does not mean fast or as soon as possible.  It means "now". Agreed on TA.. As someone who is highly interdisciplinary, it gets pretty nutty when I see the same acronym meaning different things across different fields..                                 – = –     Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia’81+, Bio$trategist               BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm   —{Nothing herein constitutes advice.  Everything fully disclaimed.}—    [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]

Response:

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I   am  concerned   that  the   unnecessary   and  pretentious obfuscation  offered  by medical  nomenclature  is  a  major cause  of medical errors.  Twenty  years ago I recall there  was a growing trend in  accounting to use  descriptive instead  of cryptic  titles. Twenty years ago  I spent  some time  in medical school  as well  as business school. (The Med  courses were part of the  bioengineering program.) I had very  little trouble with  the nomenclature because it  was mostly Greek, and  I studied  enough Greek, but  nowadays they  use initials. you’re not the only one thinking like that:

http://www.medicine-book.com/Medical_Abbreviations_15000_Conveniences… _Expense_of_Communications_and_Safety_0931431107.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As far as another post on this thread: The people who receive medical orders know the terms in which medical orders are written.  Medical orders are written in those terms because the terms are precise and well understood.  Naturally, if the patient is going to be given a supply of medication to be self-administered, the pharmacist should translate the orders into the patient’s native language, whatever it is. I have never heard of a medication caused by the terms of the medical order being misinterpreted.  Many medications result from the similarity of some tradenames for drugs.  That source of error could be removed by using generic or scientific names for the drugs.  But that would make the orders even more obscure to general readers. What this person doesn’t know about medication errors is a lot, especially the first sentence of the second paragraph.  I will guarantee you this happens daily in every hospital in the US and other countries as well.  Not a very comforting thought.

The truth, I suspect, lies somewhere in between. "Daily in every hospital" is probably an exaggeration, but errors do, of course occur. I suspect that bad doctor handwriting causes many more errors than jargon or non-standard abbreviations, though. Also, non-standardized notation can be a problem, especially when combined with the handwriting problem. For example, one gram should never be written as 1.0 Gm. because it’s too easily misread as ten grams. And "gr x" and other obsolete apothecary quantities should be dispensed with entirely. But "BID," "TID," "QID," "QD," "HS," "AC," "NPO," BRP," "ad. lib," "Stat," etc., are well established and precise and unlikely to cause any problems. Every hospital should have a list of approved abbreviations, and should enforce compliance with them. The list should include the abbreviations for lab and radiology studies as well. –Rich

Response:

        I haven’t really thought this one through, but why should we write "metastasised" when "metastased" will do? What does the extra syllable add?         I’ve heard of the case of a world renown Greek-born engineer (hint, he got an award at the White House within the past year) who couldn’t dabble in bioengineering because he just couldn’t deal with the medical jargon..                                 – = –     Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia’81+, Bio$trategist               BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm   —{Nothing herein constitutes advice.  Everything fully disclaimed.}—    [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]

Response:

       I   am  concerned   that  the   unnecessary   and  pretentious obfuscation  offered  by medical  nomenclature  is  a  major cause  of medical errors.   Physicians gain their prestige by calling common things uncommon names.  It is part of the mystification techniques they use to boost their incomes.

Absolutely.  Who would pay good money to have an owie stitched up? You should be afraid of things that go papule in the night. — Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s

Response:

        Pseudo.. you ain’t kidding.. you should see how little some "Greek" terms have to do with the actual Greek meaning..  go to groups.google.com and use the search terms "sycophant" and my initials "vjp2".. but heck, most technicians don’t know the difference between a Latin root and a Greek one..         Before I was forced into a "business writing" course I objected to having to "dumb down" my writing until I was told that writing at fog index of 10 (years of education) for someone who has 20 yrs of education means that the more educated person is still going to read it faster and also even they are more likely to take the time to read something at the 10th grade rather than the 20th grade level..         Mind you, I don’t think we should go to the other extreme and follow "current" language so well that a word which is understood today is meaningless tomorrow.. I am fully aware that a "traditional" word is more likely to be understood timelessly.. *+-  The idea that jargon is ‘precise’ is simply nonsense.  It is *+-jargon for prestige purposes.  Translation of prescriptions from *+-pseud-Latin is just another way to cause confusion and endanger *+-the patient.                                 – = –     Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia’81+, Bio$trategist               BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm   —{Nothing herein constitutes advice.  Everything fully disclaimed.}—    [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]

Response:

   I   am  concerned   that  the   unnecessary   and  pretentious obfuscation  offered  by medical  nomenclature  is  a  major cause  of medical errors.

   Physicians gain their prestige by calling common things uncommon names.  It is part of the mystification techniques they use to boost their incomes.  Errors?  With 99% going uncommented upon, prestige is more important. — George Conklin, Durham, NC:  Medicare For All Ages If HMOs ran the post office, the AMA (American Mail Association) would declare that getting mail was a privilege, not a right and 43 million Americans would get no mail delivery.  

Response:

 <SNIP The people who receive medical orders know the terms in which medical orders are written.  Medical orders are written in those terms because the terms are precise and well understood.  Naturally, if the patient is going to be given a supply of medication to be self-administered, the pharmacist should translate the orders into the patient’s native language, whatever it is. I have never heard of a medication caused by the terms of the medical order being misinterpreted.  Many medications result from the similarity of some tradenames for drugs.  That source of error could be removed by using generic or scientific names for the drugs.  But that would make the orders even more obscure to general readers.

Here’s some examples of abbreviations that are recommended not to be used as well as the possible mis-interpretations.  This list was not compiled based on somebody’s good idea, it’s based on a compilation of actual events that have happened across the country and reported to The Institute for Safe Medication Practices (ISMP) and/or FDA (Food and Drug Administration): http://www.ismp.org/msaarticles/dangerous%20abbrev.doc.htm

Response:

I   am  concerned   that  the   unnecessary   and  pretentious obfuscation  offered  by medical  nomenclature  is  a  major cause  of medical errors.  Twenty  years ago I recall there  was a growing trend in  accounting to use  descriptive instead  of cryptic  titles. Twenty years ago  I spent  some time  in medical school  as well  as business school. (The Med  courses were part of the  bioengineering program.) I had very  little trouble with  the nomenclature because it  was mostly Greek, and  I studied  enough Greek, but  nowadays they  use initials.

you’re not the only one thinking like that: http://www.medicine-book.com/Medical_Abbreviations_15000_Conveniences… As far as another post on this thread: The people who receive medical orders know the terms in which medical orders are written.  Medical orders are written in those terms because the terms are precise and well understood.  Naturally, if the patient is going to be given a supply of medication to be self-administered, the pharmacist should translate the orders into the patient’s native language, whatever it is. I have never heard of a medication caused by the terms of the medical order being misinterpreted.  Many medications result from the similarity of some tradenames for drugs.  That source of error could be removed by using generic or scientific names for the drugs.  But that would make the orders even more obscure to general readers.

What this person doesn’t know about medication errors is a lot, especially the first sentence of the second paragraph.  I will guarantee you this happens daily in every hospital in the US and other countries as well.  Not a very comforting thought.

Response:

If you think medicine uses a lot of arcane terms and acronyms, try aviation.  The difference is that in aviation, the butt on the line is the /pilot’s/, not someone else’s.  So howcome they developed more jargon in a few decades than medicine has in centuries? — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            | end

Response:

   I   am  concerned   that  the   unnecessary   and  pretentious obfuscation  offered  by medical  nomenclature  is  a  major cause  of medical errors.   Physicians gain their prestige by calling common things uncommon names.  It is part of the mystification techniques they use to boost their incomes. Absolutely.  Who would pay good money to have an owie stitched up? You should be afraid of things that go papule in the night.

  I am waiting for the term ‘failure to respond’ to be changed to mean, ‘failure to pay the bill.’ — George Conklin, Durham, NC:  Medicare For All Ages If HMOs ran the post office, the AMA (American Mail Association) would declare that getting mail was a privilege, not a right and 43 million Americans would get no mail delivery.  

Response:

I don’t understand this. In aviation, several hundred passengers’ butts are on the line at a time. But, the discussion is silly, and the premises are false. Every profession has it’s own jargon, and the reason that jargon came into being is because it leads to more precise communication, and therefore fewer errors in execution. The more technical the profession, the more complex the jargon. The difference between medicine and other professions is that communication with the patient and their family is an important aspect of their diganosis and treatment, unlike aviation where the only communicating the pilot does with his/her passengers is to tell them the temperature at their destination. If doctors think in the jargon of their profession (they do), it can be difficult, more for some than for others, to translate that jargon into words that George Conklin can understand. That communication problem has been a major failing of the medical profession for many years that is only starting to fade away over the last 30 years or so. I’m afraid you’re just going to have to be patient. The culture of medicine changes slowly. In the meantime, if you don’t like it, do what you can to change it from the outside, or find an alternative. HMc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you think medicine uses a lot of arcane terms and acronyms, try aviation.  The difference is that in aviation, the butt on the line is the /pilot’s/, not someone else’s.  So howcome they developed more jargon in a few decades than medicine has in centuries? — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            | end

Response:

I   am  concerned   that  the   unnecessary   and  pretentious obfuscation  offered  by medical  nomenclature  is  a  major cause  of medical errors.

<snip  …  pretentious polysyllabic  writing is instead a  mark of illiteracy.

‘Nuff said.

Response:

  There is  no logical  reason doctors  should use  the term "STAT" instead of "ASAP" or just "FAST".

"Stat" does not mean fast or as soon as possible.  It means "now".   A drug that is administered "stat" is not administered quickly.  It may be injected slowly, but it must be started now.  "As soon as possible" is too ambiguous. I know that in my engineering lab  reports  in college,  the  TAs  (mostly  foreign born)  downright required us  to use cryptic buzzwords,

If you dislike cryptic buzzwords, why call a teaching assistant a TA? "TA" is cryptic to the uninitiated, but teaching assistant is not.   — Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s

Response:

I know that in my engineering lab  reports  in college,  the  TAs  (mostly  foreign born)  downright required us  to use cryptic buzzwords,  and many of  our freshman comp lecturers  wanted us  to use  unnecessarily pretentious  verbiage.

Think about it like this: Say Dutch medical students would learn common names for muscles. So, the only name for the trapezoid muscle they’d then know is "Monnikskap spier", or "Monk’s cap muscle" (loosely translated). By learning the latin names (and if you know the latin names, you can also easily understand the correct English names), everybody in the whole wide world know what he’s talking about. It’s just a convenient way to make sure everybody speaks about the samething. Same for physics, chemistry, etc. But when it  came to business  writing, I had  to learn to write  all over again.  Scientists  and lawyers today  have the worst  writing skills.

You think so? I just think that scientist, lawyers and businesswriters all have their own group to speak to, each with its own jargon that everybody in the field understands. Perhaps this analogy  will clarify: Matthew knew just  enough Greek to get by  and his gospel  is hard  to read, but  Paul, who was  a native Greek Jew  wrote so clearly  that it is  so much easier  to understand even today.   Writing clearly and with  the least clutter  is the most learned way  - pretentious polysyllabic  writing is instead a  mark of illiteracy. There  is this thesaurus  "For Highly Erudite"  that keeps showing up in the bargain bins – and I hope some loon decides to shoot anyone who buys it.

Lets just hope you won’t turn out to be that loon. — Robert Bronsing Can’t you see? It all makes perfect sense, expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings and pence (R. Waters)

Response:

  It has long been my contention that professionals are paid based on the average numbers of syllables in their professional language. Explains a lot ,huh? —-         Ideologue: noun.  Someone who disagrees with the writer on an issue and is insufficiently apologetic about it.                         Stolen from Billo in misc.writing

Response:

  It has long been my contention that professionals are paid based on the average numbers of syllables in their professional language. Explains a lot ,huh?

I think you may be right. The pay I get is on the same scale as the length of the words I use. My boss, too: he is paid more and his words’ length must be twice mine. Would you say that if I learned to speak in words of two or more parts that I would be paid more? It might be worth a try. Don’t know what the Big Boss makes, but he must talk a storm, don’t you think? I don’t know if he earns all he gets paid, though he speaks well. The air he breathes must be not like mine. He hangs out with the big boys, you know, up there in the board room, where the air is thin. In my work, I don’t have much cause to use long words if I don’t want to. The folks near me can talk and write like pros, and I just don’t get what they mean all the time. Could be those long words, I guess. I used to think it might be a kind of code, but now I am sure it’s just their choice of words that makes them worth more than me. Thanks for the tip. Have a nice day. — r zed

Response:

In our last episode, broadcast on alt.usage.english:    I   am  concerned   that  the   unnecessary   and  pretentious obfuscation  offered  by medical  nomenclature  is  a  major cause  of

Pretentious?  Pretentious is fully justifying monospaced text. medical errors.  Twenty  years ago I recall there  was a growing trend in  accounting to use  descriptive instead  of cryptic  titles. Twenty years ago  I spent  some time  in medical school  as well  as business school. (The Med  courses were part of the  bioengineering program.) I had very  little trouble with  the nomenclature because it  was mostly Greek, and  I studied  enough Greek, but  nowadays they  use initials. Creating  a pidgin  creole  of  buzzwords for  every  field serves  no purpose.  Many times  those  words have  mistaken, archaic,  vestigial meanings.   There is  no logical  reason doctors  should use  the term "STAT" instead of "ASAP" or just "FAST".

As has been pointed out to you, stat does not mean ASAP or fast.  But what is less obscure about ASAP. The people who receive medical orders know the terms in which medical orders are written.  Medical orders are written in those terms because the terms are precise and well understood.  Naturally, if the patient is going to be given a supply of medication to be self-administered, the pharmacist should translate the orders into the patient’s native language, whatever it is. I have never heard of a medication caused by the terms of the medical order being misinterpreted.  Many medications result from the similarity of some tradenames for drugs.  That source of error could be removed by using generic or scientific names for the drugs.  But that would make the orders even more obscure to general readers. I know that in my engineering lab  reports  in college,  the  TAs  (mostly  foreign born)  downright required us  to use cryptic buzzwords,

The point of buzzwords is that they are cryptic and ambiguous and so devoid of meaning that they can be slipped in almost anywhere.  and many of  our freshman comp lecturers  wanted us  to use  unnecessarily pretentious  verbiage. But when it  came to business  writing, I had  to learn to write  all over

Technical words are not pretentious among technicians.  Within their field such words have precise and well and widely understood meanings. Unfortunately, such words occasionally escape into general usage where their appropriate meanings are not understood.  For some reason, words from psychiatry have often had such a fate, so now the general public things schizonphrenia means split personality (which is taken to mean multiple personality). —           While seeking revenge, dig two graves – one for yourself.                                 – Doug Horton

Response:

        I   am  concerned   that  the   unnecessary   and  pretentious obfuscation  offered  by medical  nomenclature  is  a  major cause  of medical errors.  Twenty  years ago I recall there  was a growing trend in  accounting to use  descriptive instead  of cryptic  titles. Twenty years ago  I spent  some time  in medical school  as well  as business school. (The Med  courses were part of the  bioengineering program.) I had very  little trouble with  the nomenclature because it  was mostly Greek, and  I studied  enough Greek, but  nowadays they  use initials. Creating  a pidgin  creole  of  buzzwords for  every  field serves  no purpose.  Many times  those  words have  mistaken, archaic,  vestigial meanings.   There is  no logical  reason doctors  should use  the term "STAT" instead of "ASAP" or just "FAST". I know that in my engineering lab  reports  in college,  the  TAs  (mostly  foreign born)  downright required us  to use cryptic buzzwords,  and many of  our freshman comp lecturers  wanted us  to use  unnecessarily pretentious  verbiage. But when it  came to business  writing, I had  to learn to write  all over again.  Scientists  and lawyers today  have the worst  writing skills. Perhaps this analogy  will clarify: Matthew knew just  enough Greek to get by  and his gospel  is hard  to read, but  Paul, who was  a native Greek Jew  wrote so clearly  that it is  so much easier  to understand even today.   Writing clearly and with  the least clutter  is the most learned way  - pretentious polysyllabic  writing is instead a  mark of illiteracy. There  is this thesaurus  "For Highly Erudite"  that keeps showing up in the bargain bins – and I hope some loon decides to shoot anyone who buys it.                                 – = –     Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia’81+, Bio$trategist               BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm   —{Nothing herein constitutes advice.  Everything fully disclaimed.}—    [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]

Response:

Question:

They most assuredly can put up these "roadblocks" but in all honesty they have been erected to protect the consumer and even that sometimes fails. Example that I know of is the "traveling insurance salesman".  Not long ago (a few years) there was a bunch that came through the Midwest selling what was advertised as "long-term care insurance".  The premiums were dirt cheap and a lot of elderly people bit.  At least until the insurance commissioner got involved.  The "agents" were all charged with operating without a license and fined substantially.  The insurance company cut them loose saying they weren’t agents at all but independent sales contractors (which is also illegal in KS) and were operating outside their company guidelines, which they were according to the PRINTED guidelines, which none of the "sales reps" had ever received a copy of. The insurance itself?  Well, before almost anyone collected a dime the company went belly-up.  I think they were based in PA somewhere. States each have their own laws regarding this.  In KS, only a licensed agent can sell insurance.  Period.  So to sell here, you’d need agents licensed here to sell it for you.  WRT a mutual, all of them I know of in KS requires you to be a resident of KS.  Farm Bureau is even more restrictive in that you have to use the agent in your county of residence, but I believe that’s company policy not state law.  Perhaps there’s a way around this if you have some kind of an association that is the determining factor if you’re able to be a mutual customer or not, I just don’t know. KS law also specifies a required reserve amount be held for claims if you want to do business here. The short version is that your first call should be to your state insurance commissioner and then some heart to heart talks with some insurance professionals that you know and respect. — John Stricker I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the foodchain just to become a vegetarian.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t know in which state you live but I would start with checking with a state insurance commission.  I know there is one in Indiana, not sure about others.  What we are discussing may be regulated out of existence or illegal in some forms in some states. I’ve always kind of wondered about this.  Seems to me that this is INTERstate commerce and the individual states shouldn’t be able to put these kinds of roadblocks up.

Response:

Don’t know in which state you live but I would start with checking with a state insurance commission.  I know there is one in Indiana, not sure about others.  What we are discussing may be regulated out of existence or illegal in some forms in some states.  The commission can likely tell you what kind of reserves we may need to start or what form of organization will be allowed.  Also how to go about reinsurance. You’ll need to put together actuarial figures to develop costs and frequencies on top of which you’ll add operating costs. I admire your ambition and will do what I can to help but at the moment have my hands full with several other projects. Jerry I might like to take on this as a project.  I’m not rich, though, and health would prevent putting in massive hours (60) per week on it. Snip Questions: 1. How do the companies handle claims now?  When the company is in Virginia and a claim is made in Oregon (for example), how is it investigated for legitimacy and amount of actual damages?

Investigators are available on a fee basis I think. 2. What policies are to be used to turn down insurance for anyone? Never deny anyone?

Might deny more than accepted initially.  Lots of possibilities for fraud.  Anyone have current copies of policies to study? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 3. What say you? AI Nut

Response:

Don’t know in which state you live but I would start with checking with a state insurance commission.  I know there is one in Indiana, not sure about others.  What we are discussing may be regulated out of existence or illegal in some forms in some states.

I’ve always kind of wondered about this.  Seems to me that this is INTERstate commerce and the individual states shouldn’t be able to put these kinds of roadblocks up.

Response:

Nothing personal, but I suspect that if a company could be formed, then someone with more experience would need to be paid to run it.  Perhaps a retired professional with an interest in aviation. There will likely need to be someone with enough money who wants to start it, but who would be willing to take a low return, like 20%. Preferably, the 2 folks could be one person. Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I might like to take on this as a project.  I’m not rich, though, and health would prevent putting in massive hours (60) per week on it. I’ll throw out these ideas: 1. I’d eventually like to earn a salary, with back pay, once the plan becomes self perpetuating.  Let’s get that known right up front so no one thinks I’m trying to pull anything over. 2. Actual annual costs per member is a very thorny issue.  The simplest is to pay relative to desired coverage.  Pilot hours, hull hours, and etc., — factor in premiums or not? 3. Limit liability to whatever funds are available at the moment of claim.  This works both ways, though, if multiple large claims came in nearly simultaneously. 4. As cash reserves build (?), invest in blue chips, money markets, T bills, or something to help it grow, with attendant risks. 5. When a claim is filed, NTSB investigation reports, and examinations by members near to the site with that aircraft type experience will determine amount of damages. 6. Liability claims are way out of my league, but common sense should rule.  Guess the "mutual" would need to have some attorney’s on retainer (another useless expense, though.) 7. We could cover initial claims during startup that are larger than reserves by simply taking credit cards for the premiums until we reach enough mass that actual claims might be able to be covered, then credit cards are processed and insurance began.  Everyone would have to know and agree to that. Questions: 1. How do the companies handle claims now?  When the company is in Virginia and a claim is made in Oregon (for example), how is it investigated for legitimacy and amount of actual damages? 2. What policies are to be used to turn down insurance for anyone? Never deny anyone? 3. What say you? AI Nut Well, A million is a thousand thousand.  So, if you have a thousand members, and each member paid one thouaand a year, then it would take all the money for that year.  Likely there would be other claims as well, but how many of you are paying more than a thousand now? I think the real key to this would be knowing the likely outlay, and having an idea what reinsurance would cost.  The rates are usually better for the reinsurance than for the individual policy.  The difference is what you have to use to administer the group. Casualty is a whole different game than healthcare, and I think if healthcare went back to being run like casualty we might be better off. It seemed a good idea to promote preventive medicine by paying for it, but it just hasn’t worked out to be better.  Now if you want something that will never happen! Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Far be it from me to rain on anybody’s parade here, but……. An insurance company’s business is to make a reasonable profit for their owners (be they stockholders, an individual, or members).  We don’t have too many left that are doing this BECAUSE there isn’t a tidy profit to be turned here with the way the legal and societal situation is at the moment. They can make money at the current time on things like auto and homeowner’s insurance because of the sheer number of cars and houses out there. Some also make a tidy little sum by specialty insurance products like unemployment, death and dismemberment, umbrella, etc. If we accept the above, then why does anyone think the profit structure would be any better just because of a change of ownership of a company? Aircraft alone are a very small  risk pool.  How many homebuilt aircraft are flying in the US (ron?)?  Now take off the number that want to fly without insurance or maybe stay with a different carrier.  Now take just ONE multi-million dollar claim, I’m not talking lawsuit here, a valid claim that the company knows it will have to pay out whether it goes to court or not, and divide that by the number of homebuilts.  It doesn’t take much creative accounting to see where this is heading and we haven’t even gotten into the claims for not-in-motion, etc., etc., etc. I’m all for mutual companies.  I pay a pretty hefty amount to two of them every year (Farm Bureau Mutual and Blue/Cross and Blue Shield of Kansas). But that doesn’t mean it will cure any of aviation insurance industry problems by having/forming a mutual company.  FWIW, BC/BS of KS is trying very hard right now to sell out to Advantage of Indiana that would make it a NON mutual company.  They had a referendum to the owners (us) and it passed by an 80%-20% vote to sell out (I voted against it).  The deal was done until our State Insurance Commissioner stepped in and rejected the deal. BC/BS of KS has the health insurance for the State of KS employees and well over 70% of the total population in KS.  I don’t know what the power of other state’s IC’s is, but here in KS their word is law and if they don’t approve it ain’t getting done. Although I agree with her decision and reasons for making it, it’s been a very politically unpopular decision for her (just looking at the vote results tells you why) and may very well cost her a chance for a run at the governor’s office which she appeared to be gearing up to do. — John Stricker I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the foodchain just to become a vegetarian. The largest – and for a long time most successful – auto insurance company in the US was started as a similar idea. It is USAA or United Services Automotive Association.  Although it now has grown into a larger company, with a larger mission, the primary mission is to provide casualty policies -auto and home – to commissioned officers of the military as well as a few other distinct groups. The members own the company, and for a long time, they were its only customers. I believe the advantage of this was that they got a preferred group of individuals who, being bound by a common connection, were less likely to present claims (either because they were more responsible or just because they were not likely to cheat their peers).  There are now barriers to this kind of arrangement in the law, but it can still be done. All you need to get started is a lawyer and an actuary (sp?).  At some point, someone might need a license, but you can always hire someone with one. Good Luck, Eric The question of any kind of insurance for home built and ultralight aircraft is getting more irksome by the day.  I fully expect a number of existing companies, especially those involved with damage from 9/11, to start filing bankruptcy. Maybe there’s something we could do for ourselves. Some time back, I recall hearing something about "mutual" insurance. IIRC, the system works like this:  all members are invested in the system; all members share in the risks; funds are held/invested in very safe areas to assure availability. The system is/was used by a lot of farmers like a sort of insurance cooperative where the premiums were kept low and reasonable. I don’t know what the current regulations on such a system might be and that’s why I’m posting here.  Maybe somebody knows somebody. I can understand why the alphabet orgs would not wish to become involved   with insurance but there’s nothing to say a new entity cannot be formed. I know how many of us feel about getting ripped by carriers so here’s a chance to put brains before mouth to see if we can do something about the issue.

Response:

I might like to take on this as a project.  I’m not rich, though, and health would prevent putting in massive hours (60) per week on it. I’ll throw out these ideas: 1. I’d eventually like to earn a salary, with back pay, once the plan becomes self perpetuating.  Let’s get that known right up front so no one thinks I’m trying to pull anything over. 2. Actual annual costs per member is a very thorny issue.  The simplest is to pay relative to desired coverage.  Pilot hours, hull hours, and etc., — factor in premiums or not? 3. Limit liability to whatever funds are available at the moment of claim.  This works both ways, though, if multiple large claims came in nearly simultaneously.   4. As cash reserves build (?), invest in blue chips, money markets, T bills, or something to help it grow, with attendant risks. 5. When a claim is filed, NTSB investigation reports, and examinations by members near to the site with that aircraft type experience will determine amount of damages. 6. Liability claims are way out of my league, but common sense should rule.  Guess the "mutual" would need to have some attorney’s on retainer (another useless expense, though.) 7. We could cover initial claims during startup that are larger than reserves by simply taking credit cards for the premiums until we reach enough mass that actual claims might be able to be covered, then credit cards are processed and insurance began.  Everyone would have to know and agree to that. Questions: 1. How do the companies handle claims now?  When the company is in Virginia and a claim is made in Oregon (for example), how is it investigated for legitimacy and amount of actual damages? 2. What policies are to be used to turn down insurance for anyone? Never deny anyone? 3. What say you? AI Nut – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, A million is a thousand thousand.  So, if you have a thousand members, and each member paid one thouaand a year, then it would take all the money for that year.  Likely there would be other claims as well, but how many of you are paying more than a thousand now? I think the real key to this would be knowing the likely outlay, and having an idea what reinsurance would cost.  The rates are usually better for the reinsurance than for the individual policy.  The difference is what you have to use to administer the group. Casualty is a whole different game than healthcare, and I think if healthcare went back to being run like casualty we might be better off.  It seemed a good idea to promote preventive medicine by paying for it, but it just hasn’t worked out to be better.  Now if you want something that will never happen! Eric Far be it from me to rain on anybody’s parade here, but……. An insurance company’s business is to make a reasonable profit for their owners (be they stockholders, an individual, or members).  We don’t have too many left that are doing this BECAUSE there isn’t a tidy profit to be turned here with the way the legal and societal situation is at the moment.  They can make money at the current time on things like auto and homeowner’s insurance because of the sheer number of cars and houses out there.  Some also make a tidy little sum by specialty insurance products like unemployment, death and dismemberment, umbrella, etc. If we accept the above, then why does anyone think the profit structure would be any better just because of a change of ownership of a company? Aircraft alone are a very small  risk pool.  How many homebuilt aircraft are flying in the US (ron?)?  Now take off the number that want to fly without insurance or maybe stay with a different carrier.  Now take just ONE multi-million dollar claim, I’m not talking lawsuit here, a valid claim that the company knows it will have to pay out whether it goes to court or not, and divide that by the number of homebuilts.  It doesn’t take much creative accounting to see where this is heading and we haven’t even gotten into the claims for not-in-motion, etc., etc., etc. I’m all for mutual companies.  I pay a pretty hefty amount to two of them every year (Farm Bureau Mutual and Blue/Cross and Blue Shield of Kansas). But that doesn’t mean it will cure any of aviation insurance industry problems by having/forming a mutual company.  FWIW, BC/BS of KS is trying very hard right now to sell out to Advantage of Indiana that would make it a NON mutual company.  They had a referendum to the owners (us) and it passed by an 80%-20% vote to sell out (I voted against it).  The deal was done until our State Insurance Commissioner stepped in and rejected the deal. BC/BS of KS has the health insurance for the State of KS employees and well over 70% of the total population in KS.  I don’t know what the power of other state’s IC’s is, but here in KS their word is law and if they don’t approve it ain’t getting done. Although I agree with her decision and reasons for making it, it’s been a very politically unpopular decision for her (just looking at the vote results tells you why) and may very well cost her a chance for a run at the governor’s office which she appeared to be gearing up to do. — John Stricker I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the foodchain just to become a vegetarian. The largest – and for a long time most successful – auto insurance company in the US was started as a similar idea. It is USAA or United Services Automotive Association.  Although it now has grown into a larger company, with a larger mission, the primary mission is to provide casualty policies -auto and home – to commissioned officers of the military as well as a few other distinct groups. The members own the company, and for a long time, they were its only customers. I believe the advantage of this was that they got a preferred group of individuals who, being bound by a common connection, were less likely to present claims (either because they were more responsible or just because they were not likely to cheat their peers).  There are now barriers to this kind of arrangement in the law, but it can still be done. All you need to get started is a lawyer and an actuary (sp?).  At some point, someone might need a license, but you can always hire someone with one. Good Luck, Eric The question of any kind of insurance for home built and ultralight aircraft is getting more irksome by the day.  I fully expect a number of existing companies, especially those involved with damage from 9/11, to start filing bankruptcy. Maybe there’s something we could do for ourselves. Some time back, I recall hearing something about "mutual" insurance. IIRC, the system works like this:  all members are invested in the system; all members share in the risks; funds are held/invested in very safe areas to assure availability. The system is/was used by a lot of farmers like a sort of insurance cooperative where the premiums were kept low and reasonable. I don’t know what the current regulations on such a system might be and that’s why I’m posting here.  Maybe somebody knows somebody. I can understand why the alphabet orgs would not wish to become involved   with insurance but there’s nothing to say a new entity cannot be formed. I know how many of us feel about getting ripped by carriers so here’s a chance to put brains before mouth to see if we can do something about the issue.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the 40’s/50’s my Dad had auto insurance with a mutual insurance company. I do remember in the years that losses were below normal…. He got money back !!! I can remember those days like it was just last month.  In fact, it *was* last month.  Got my usual yearly refund from the auto insurance company….$150, this time. Ron "USAA" Wanttaja You might have to give it back Ron. A USAA insured person run into the back of my wife’s car last week while she was stopped at a stop sign. Totaled her car. Jerry Springer

You obviously don’t live in Michigan with it’s "no fault". Warren

Response:

Well, A million is a thousand thousand.  So, if you have a thousand members, and each member paid one thouaand a year, then it would take all the money for that year.  Likely there would be other claims as well, but how many of you are paying more than a thousand now? I think the real key to this would be knowing the likely outlay, and having an idea what reinsurance would cost.  The rates are usually better for the reinsurance than for the individual policy.  The difference is what you have to use to administer the group. Casualty is a whole different game than healthcare, and I think if healthcare went back to being run like casualty we might be better off.  It seemed a good idea to promote preventive medicine by paying for it, but it just hasn’t worked out to be better.  Now if you want something that will never happen! Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Far be it from me to rain on anybody’s parade here, but……. An insurance company’s business is to make a reasonable profit for their owners (be they stockholders, an individual, or members).  We don’t have too many left that are doing this BECAUSE there isn’t a tidy profit to be turned here with the way the legal and societal situation is at the moment.  They can make money at the current time on things like auto and homeowner’s insurance because of the sheer number of cars and houses out there.  Some also make a tidy little sum by specialty insurance products like unemployment, death and dismemberment, umbrella, etc. If we accept the above, then why does anyone think the profit structure would be any better just because of a change of ownership of a company? Aircraft alone are a very small  risk pool.  How many homebuilt aircraft are flying in the US (ron?)?  Now take off the number that want to fly without insurance or maybe stay with a different carrier.  Now take just ONE multi-million dollar claim, I’m not talking lawsuit here, a valid claim that the company knows it will have to pay out whether it goes to court or not, and divide that by the number of homebuilts.  It doesn’t take much creative accounting to see where this is heading and we haven’t even gotten into the claims for not-in-motion, etc., etc., etc. I’m all for mutual companies.  I pay a pretty hefty amount to two of them every year (Farm Bureau Mutual and Blue/Cross and Blue Shield of Kansas). But that doesn’t mean it will cure any of aviation insurance industry problems by having/forming a mutual company.  FWIW, BC/BS of KS is trying very hard right now to sell out to Advantage of Indiana that would make it a NON mutual company.  They had a referendum to the owners (us) and it passed by an 80%-20% vote to sell out (I voted against it).  The deal was done until our State Insurance Commissioner stepped in and rejected the deal. BC/BS of KS has the health insurance for the State of KS employees and well over 70% of the total population in KS.  I don’t know what the power of other state’s IC’s is, but here in KS their word is law and if they don’t approve it ain’t getting done. Although I agree with her decision and reasons for making it, it’s been a very politically unpopular decision for her (just looking at the vote results tells you why) and may very well cost her a chance for a run at the governor’s office which she appeared to be gearing up to do. — John Stricker I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the foodchain just to become a vegetarian. The largest – and for a long time most successful – auto insurance company in the US was started as a similar idea. It is USAA or United Services Automotive Association.  Although it now has grown into a larger company, with a larger mission, the primary mission is to provide casualty policies -auto and home – to commissioned officers of the military as well as a few other distinct groups. The members own the company, and for a long time, they were its only customers. I believe the advantage of this was that they got a preferred group of individuals who, being bound by a common connection, were less likely to present claims (either because they were more responsible or just because they were not likely to cheat their peers).  There are now barriers to this kind of arrangement in the law, but it can still be done. All you need to get started is a lawyer and an actuary (sp?).  At some point, someone might need a license, but you can always hire someone with one. Good Luck, Eric The question of any kind of insurance for home built and ultralight aircraft is getting more irksome by the day.  I fully expect a number of existing companies, especially those involved with damage from 9/11, to start filing bankruptcy. Maybe there’s something we could do for ourselves. Some time back, I recall hearing something about "mutual" insurance. IIRC, the system works like this:  all members are invested in the system; all members share in the risks; funds are held/invested in very safe areas to assure availability. The system is/was used by a lot of farmers like a sort of insurance cooperative where the premiums were kept low and reasonable. I don’t know what the current regulations on such a system might be and that’s why I’m posting here.  Maybe somebody knows somebody. I can understand why the alphabet orgs would not wish to become involved   with insurance but there’s nothing to say a new entity cannot be formed. I know how many of us feel about getting ripped by carriers so here’s a chance to put brains before mouth to see if we can do something about the issue.

Response:

Far be it from me to rain on anybody’s parade here, but…….

Right !!! Hey Noah…… Is the ark done yet? I got all the animals lined up.   Barnyard BOb

Response:

John, When I brought this idea up, I knew someone was going to make this point.  The idea with the mutual group was not to make profits for stockholders but to provide some sort of protection for members. The idea was to share the risk incurred by people with a common interest. It is my understanding that by targeting some areas of coverage and not others, exposure to large losses is limited. I’m not an insurance professional by any means beyond the usual experience most of us have. One of the reasons for the current state of affairs is that what couldn’t happen, did.  It cost members and society big time and it will take a long time to recover. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Far be it from me to rain on anybody’s parade here, but……. An insurance company’s business is to make a reasonable profit for their owners (be they stockholders, an individual, or members).  We don’t have too many left that are doing this BECAUSE there isn’t a tidy profit to be turned here with the way the legal and societal situation is at the moment.  They can make money at the current time on things like auto and homeowner’s insurance because of the sheer number of cars and houses out there.  Some also make a tidy little sum by specialty insurance products like unemployment, death and dismemberment, umbrella, etc. If we accept the above, then why does anyone think the profit structure would be any better just because of a change of ownership of a company? Aircraft alone are a very small  risk pool.  How many homebuilt aircraft are flying in the US (ron?)?  Now take off the number that want to fly without insurance or maybe stay with a different carrier.  Now take just ONE multi-million dollar claim, I’m not talking lawsuit here, a valid claim that the company knows it will have to pay out whether it goes to court or not, and divide that by the number of homebuilts.  It doesn’t take much creative accounting to see where this is heading and we haven’t even gotten into the claims for not-in-motion, etc., etc., etc. I’m all for mutual companies.  I pay a pretty hefty amount to two of them every year (Farm Bureau Mutual and Blue/Cross and Blue Shield of Kansas). But that doesn’t mean it will cure any of aviation insurance industry problems by having/forming a mutual company.  FWIW, BC/BS of KS is trying very hard right now to sell out to Advantage of Indiana that would make it a NON mutual company.  They had a referendum to the owners (us) and it passed by an 80%-20% vote to sell out (I voted against it).  The deal was done until our State Insurance Commissioner stepped in and rejected the deal. BC/BS of KS has the health insurance for the State of KS employees and well over 70% of the total population in KS.  I don’t know what the power of other state’s IC’s is, but here in KS their word is law and if they don’t approve it ain’t getting done. Although I agree with her decision and reasons for making it, it’s been a very politically unpopular decision for her (just looking at the vote results tells you why) and may very well cost her a chance for a run at the governor’s office which she appeared to be gearing up to do. — John Stricker I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the foodchain just to become a vegetarian. The largest – and for a long time most successful – auto insurance company in the US was started as a similar idea. It is USAA or United Services Automotive Association.  Although it now has grown into a larger company, with a larger mission, the primary mission is to provide casualty policies -auto and home – to commissioned officers of the military as well as a few other distinct groups. The members own the company, and for a long time, they were its only customers. I believe the advantage of this was that they got a preferred group of individuals who, being bound by a common connection, were less likely to present claims (either because they were more responsible or just because they were not likely to cheat their peers).  There are now barriers to this kind of arrangement in the law, but it can still be done. All you need to get started is a lawyer and an actuary (sp?).  At some point, someone might need a license, but you can always hire someone with one. Good Luck, Eric The question of any kind of insurance for home built and ultralight aircraft is getting more irksome by the day.  I fully expect a number of existing companies, especially those involved with damage from 9/11, to start filing bankruptcy. Maybe there’s something we could do for ourselves. Some time back, I recall hearing something about "mutual" insurance. IIRC, the system works like this:  all members are invested in the system; all members share in the risks; funds are held/invested in very safe areas to assure availability. The system is/was used by a lot of farmers like a sort of insurance cooperative where the premiums were kept low and reasonable. I don’t know what the current regulations on such a system might be and that’s why I’m posting here.  Maybe somebody knows somebody. I can understand why the alphabet orgs would not wish to become involved  with insurance but there’s nothing to say a new entity cannot be formed. I know how many of us feel about getting ripped by carriers so here’s a chance to put brains before mouth to see if we can do something about the issue.

Response:

I can remember those days like it was just last month.  In fact, it *was* last month.  Got my usual yearly refund from the auto insurance company….$150, this time. But don’t try to get Flybaby insurance from USAA with that $150 refund  :)

Moot point, Tony, ’cause the last time I checked, USAA wouldn’t insure homebuilts.  They didn’t actually didn’t *say* homebuilts…but said something like no "custom aircraft" or "non-production aircraft." Sigh. I insured the Fly Baby through Regal last year.  They are a broker, and do one’s shopping around for you.  For the first time, I actually got a breakdown between the liability vs. not-in-flight hull vs. in-flight hull.  Basic liability was about $500 (absolutely ridiculous, considering our *club* Fly Baby was only $200 eight years ago) and the next two stages were something like $125 each.   I basically "slight extra charged" myself and ended up getting full coverage.  I considered just getting the liability, but thought, "well, another $125 for coverage for if the hangar falls on it isn’t bad."  THEN I thought, "Well, another $125 for coverage for if I fell on a hangar would be nice…." I talked to the Regal folks at the aviation trade show in Puyallup last month.  They didn’t think my Fly Baby insurance would go up much. But I guess I’ll see, in a couple of months. How about it…anyone else want to post what they pay for insurance? Useful information to compare…. Ron Wanttaja

Response:

In the 40’s/50’s my Dad had auto insurance with a mutual insurance company. I do remember in the years that losses were below normal…. He got money back !!! I can remember those days like it was just last month.  In fact, it *was* last month.  Got my usual yearly refund from the auto insurance company….$150, this time. Ron "USAA" Wanttaja

You might have to give it back Ron. A USAA insured person run into the back of my wife’s car last week while she was stopped at a stop sign. Totaled her car. Jerry Springer

Response:

Far be it from me to rain on anybody’s parade here, but……. An insurance company’s business is to make a reasonable profit for their owners (be they stockholders, an individual, or members).  We don’t have too many left that are doing this BECAUSE there isn’t a tidy profit to be turned here with the way the legal and societal situation is at the moment.  They can make money at the current time on things like auto and homeowner’s insurance because of the sheer number of cars and houses out there.  Some also make a tidy little sum by specialty insurance products like unemployment, death and dismemberment, umbrella, etc. If we accept the above, then why does anyone think the profit structure would be any better just because of a change of ownership of a company? Aircraft alone are a very small  risk pool.  How many homebuilt aircraft are flying in the US (ron?)?  Now take off the number that want to fly without insurance or maybe stay with a different carrier.  Now take just ONE multi-million dollar claim, I’m not talking lawsuit here, a valid claim that the company knows it will have to pay out whether it goes to court or not, and divide that by the number of homebuilts.  It doesn’t take much creative accounting to see where this is heading and we haven’t even gotten into the claims for not-in-motion, etc., etc., etc. I’m all for mutual companies.  I pay a pretty hefty amount to two of them every year (Farm Bureau Mutual and Blue/Cross and Blue Shield of Kansas). But that doesn’t mean it will cure any of aviation insurance industry problems by having/forming a mutual company.  FWIW, BC/BS of KS is trying very hard right now to sell out to Advantage of Indiana that would make it a NON mutual company.  They had a referendum to the owners (us) and it passed by an 80%-20% vote to sell out (I voted against it).  The deal was done until our State Insurance Commissioner stepped in and rejected the deal. BC/BS of KS has the health insurance for the State of KS employees and well over 70% of the total population in KS.  I don’t know what the power of other state’s IC’s is, but here in KS their word is law and if they don’t approve it ain’t getting done. Although I agree with her decision and reasons for making it, it’s been a very politically unpopular decision for her (just looking at the vote results tells you why) and may very well cost her a chance for a run at the governor’s office which she appeared to be gearing up to do. — John Stricker I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the foodchain just to become a vegetarian.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The largest – and for a long time most successful – auto insurance company in the US was started as a similar idea. It is USAA or United Services Automotive Association.  Although it now has grown into a larger company, with a larger mission, the primary mission is to provide casualty policies -auto and home – to commissioned officers of the military as well as a few other distinct groups. The members own the company, and for a long time, they were its only customers. I believe the advantage of this was that they got a preferred group of individuals who, being bound by a common connection, were less likely to present claims (either because they were more responsible or just because they were not likely to cheat their peers).  There are now barriers to this kind of arrangement in the law, but it can still be done. All you need to get started is a lawyer and an actuary (sp?).  At some point, someone might need a license, but you can always hire someone with one. Good Luck, Eric The question of any kind of insurance for home built and ultralight aircraft is getting more irksome by the day.  I fully expect a number of existing companies, especially those involved with damage from 9/11, to start filing bankruptcy. Maybe there’s something we could do for ourselves. Some time back, I recall hearing something about "mutual" insurance. IIRC, the system works like this:  all members are invested in the system; all members share in the risks; funds are held/invested in very safe areas to assure availability. The system is/was used by a lot of farmers like a sort of insurance cooperative where the premiums were kept low and reasonable. I don’t know what the current regulations on such a system might be and that’s why I’m posting here.  Maybe somebody knows somebody. I can understand why the alphabet orgs would not wish to become involved   with insurance but there’s nothing to say a new entity cannot be formed. I know how many of us feel about getting ripped by carriers so here’s a chance to put brains before mouth to see if we can do something about the issue.

Response:

The lawyer has to help you sort all that out for each state, but you can reinsure group with a larger insurance company. Also, just like Bob’s Dad, I get a check every year from USAA as my share of the profits. Better rates, plus an annual check.  Its a cool deal.

Sounds as though many would partcipate. Question is, who would take the initiative and start things rolling? The basic idea is probably very good as well as timely.         – Curious

Response:

Wanted:  Rich Entrepeneur with time on hands.  Interest in aviation a must, experience in insurance industry a plus. How’s that? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The lawyer has to help you sort all that out for each state, but you can reinsure group with a larger insurance company. Also, just like Bob’s Dad, I get a check every year from USAA as my share of the profits. Better rates, plus an annual check.  Its a cool deal. Sounds as though many would partcipate. Question is, who would take the initiative and start things rolling? The basic idea is probably very good as well as timely. – Curious

Response:

Wanted:  Rich Entrepeneur with time on hands.  Interest in aviation a must, experience in insurance industry a plus. How’s that?

Ironically, this might very well be a good means of turning a buck in this economy. Find an unfulfilled need and fill it.         – Curious

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In the 40’s/50’s my Dad had auto insurance with a mutual insurance company. I do remember in the years that losses were below normal…. He got money back !!!

I can remember those days like it was just last month.  In fact, it *was* last month.  Got my usual yearly refund from the auto insurance company….$150, this time. Ron "USAA" Wanttaja

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In the 40’s/50’s my Dad had auto insurance with a mutual insurance company. I do remember in the years that losses were below normal…. He got money back !!! I can remember those days like it was just last month.  In fact, it *was* last month.  Got my usual yearly refund from the auto insurance company….$150, this time. Ron "USAA" Wanttaja

But don’t try to get Flybaby insurance from USAA with that $150 refund  :) Tony "USAA" Spicer

Response:

The lawyer has to help you sort all that out for each state, but you can reinsure group with a larger insurance company. Also, just like Bob’s Dad, I get a check every year from USAA as my share of the profits. Better rates, plus an annual check.  Its a cool deal. Eric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The largest – and for a long time most successful – auto insurance company in the US was started as a similar idea. It is USAA or United Services Automotive Association.  Although it now has grown into a larger company, with a larger mission, the primary mission is to provide casualty policies -auto and home – to commissioned officers of the military as well as a few other distinct groups. The members own the company, and for a long time, they were its only customers. I believe the advantage of this was that they got a preferred group of individuals who, being bound by a common connection, were less likely to present claims (either because they were more responsible or just because they were not likely to cheat their peers).  There are now barriers to this kind of arrangement in the law, but it can still be done. All you need to get started is a lawyer and an actuary (sp?).  At some point, someone might need a license, but you can always hire someone with one. What about required reserves? – Curious

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The largest – and for a long time most successful – auto insurance company in the US was started as a similar idea. It is USAA or United Services Automotive Association.  Although it now has grown into a larger company, with a larger mission, the primary mission is to provide casualty policies -auto and home – to commissioned officers of the military as well as a few other distinct groups. The members own the company, and for a long time, they were its only customers. I believe the advantage of this was that they got a preferred group of individuals who, being bound by a common connection, were less likely to present claims (either because they were more responsible or just because they were not likely to cheat their peers).  There are now barriers to this kind of arrangement in the law, but it can still be done. All you need to get started is a lawyer and an actuary (sp?).  At some point, someone might need a license, but you can always hire someone with one.

What about required reserves?         – Curious

Response:

The largest – and for a long time most successful – auto insurance company in the US was started as a similar idea. It is USAA or United Services Automotive Association.  Although it now has grown into a larger company, with a larger mission, the primary mission is to provide casualty policies -auto and home – to commissioned officers of the military as well as a few other distinct groups. The members own the company, and for a long time, they were its only customers. I believe the advantage of this was that they got a preferred group of individuals who, being bound by a common connection, were less likely to present claims (either because they were more responsible or just because they were not likely to cheat their peers).  There are now barriers to this kind of arrangement in the law, but it can still be done. All you need to get started is a lawyer and an actuary (sp?).  At some point, someone might need a license, but you can always hire someone with one. Good Luck, Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The question of any kind of insurance for home built and ultralight aircraft is getting more irksome by the day.  I fully expect a number of existing companies, especially those involved with damage from 9/11, to start filing bankruptcy. Maybe there’s something we could do for ourselves. Some time back, I recall hearing something about "mutual" insurance. IIRC, the system works like this:  all members are invested in the system; all members share in the risks; funds are held/invested in very safe areas to assure availability. The system is/was used by a lot of farmers like a sort of insurance cooperative where the premiums were kept low and reasonable. I don’t know what the current regulations on such a system might be and that’s why I’m posting here.  Maybe somebody knows somebody. I can understand why the alphabet orgs would not wish to become involved   with insurance but there’s nothing to say a new entity cannot be formed. I know how many of us feel about getting ripped by carriers so here’s a chance to put brains before mouth to see if we can do something about the issue.

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       In the dim distant past, my parents belonged to a group called "The Mutual Benefit Assoc.". It was a life insurance plan of sorts. When a member died the survivors were assessed a fee and this was paid out to the beneficiary. Worked fine until they all got old at the same time and with predictable results. It was a product of the 30’s. Somewhere along the way they neglected to enroll new and young members.        Could be a workable system for a/c insurance.                                alex t.

In the 40’s/50’s my Dad had auto insurance with a mutual insurance company. I do remember in the years that losses were below normal…. He got money back !!! Somewhere along the line, I think they went conventional. Why give money back when you can keep all of it. Duh. BOb U

Response:

Th Maybe there’s something we could do for ourselves. Some time back, I recall hearing something about "mutual" insurance. IIRC, the system works like this:  all members are invested in the s I don’t know what the current regulations on such a system might be and that’s why I’m posting here.  Maybe somebody knows somebody.

        In the dim distant past, my parents belonged to a group called "The Mutual Benefit Assoc.". It was a life insurance plan of sorts. When a member died the survivors were assessed a fee and this was paid out to the beneficiary. Worked fine until they all got old at the same time and with predictable results. It was a product of the 30’s. Somewhere along the way they neglected to enroll new and young members.         Could be a workable system for a/c insurance.                                 alex t.

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This is an excellent idea!  I’ll help. AI Nut – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The question of any kind of insurance for home built and ultralight aircraft is getting more irksome by the day.  I fully expect a number of existing companies, especially those involved with damage from 9/11, to start filing bankruptcy. Maybe there’s something we could do for ourselves. Some time back, I recall hearing something about "mutual" insurance. IIRC, the system works like this:  all members are invested in the system; all members share in the risks; funds are held/invested in very safe areas to assure availability. The system is/was used by a lot of farmers like a sort of insurance cooperative where the premiums were kept low and reasonable. I don’t know what the current regulations on such a system might be and that’s why I’m posting here.  Maybe somebody knows somebody. I can understand why the alphabet orgs would not wish to become involved   with insurance but there’s nothing to say a new entity cannot be formed. I know how many of us feel about getting ripped by carriers so here’s a chance to put brains before mouth to see if we can do something about the issue.

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writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The question of any kind of insurance for home built and ultralight aircraft is getting more irksome by the day.  I fully expect a number of existing companies, especially those involved with damage from 9/11, to start filing bankruptcy. Maybe there’s something we could do for ourselves. Some time back, I recall hearing something about "mutual" insurance. IIRC, the system works like this:  all members are invested in the system; all members share in the risks; funds are held/invested in very safe areas to assure availability. The system is/was used by a lot of farmers like a sort of insurance cooperative where the premiums were kept low and reasonable. I don’t know what the current regulations on such a system might be and that’s why I’m posting here.  Maybe somebody knows somebody. I can understand why the alphabet orgs would not wish to become involved  with insurance but there’s nothing to say a new entity cannot be formed. I know how many of us feel about getting ripped by carriers so here’s a chance to put brains before mouth to see if we can do something about the issue.

At the rate things are going, it may be our only option.  My flying club just got their renewal for the coming year and it’s up by 110% over last year.  We have had to lower the coverage and increase dues to pay for it.  Even then, I understand we were lucky to be able to renew it.   PS:  No claims in last 10 years. Bob Reed www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com      (KIS Builders Site) KIS Cruiser in progress…Slow but steady progress…. "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!" (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)    

Response:

The question of any kind of insurance for home built and ultralight aircraft is getting more irksome by the day.  I fully expect a number of existing companies, especially those involved with damage from 9/11, to start filing bankruptcy. Maybe there’s something we could do for ourselves. Some time back, I recall hearing something about "mutual" insurance. IIRC, the system works like this:  all members are invested in the system; all members share in the risks; funds are held/invested in very safe areas to assure availability. The system is/was used by a lot of farmers like a sort of insurance cooperative where the premiums were kept low and reasonable. I don’t know what the current regulations on such a system might be and that’s why I’m posting here.  Maybe somebody knows somebody. I can understand why the alphabet orgs would not wish to become involved   with insurance but there’s nothing to say a new entity cannot be formed. I know how many of us feel about getting ripped by carriers so here’s a chance to put brains before mouth to see if we can do something about the issue.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  For a start, you should be using excel.  That should alleviate arithmetic errors, assuming the formulas are entered correctly. — sarah clark I thought about using excel, and I have for other reports, but with all the typing formatting needed, I decided word would be best.  I know calculator for the arithmetic

I agree with Sarah. Use a spreadsheet to do accounting homework. It’s time you learned how to put format spreadsheet output and how to transfer spreadsheets to text documents. easy2000

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I’m an accounting student taking Managerial Accounting (Cost Accounting). I’m trying to prepare a production report using process cost accounting with the FIFO method.  During the cost reconciliation with the work in process account and units completed I’ve run into a 46K mistake.  Is anyone willing to take a look at my Word document to tell me where I’m wrong?  I don’t necessarily need to know the right answer, just where to

Response:

I’m an accounting student taking Managerial Accounting (Cost Accounting). I’m trying to prepare a production report using process cost accounting with the FIFO method.  During the cost reconciliation with the work in process account and units completed I’ve run into a 46K mistake.  Is anyone willing to take a look at my Word document to tell me where I’m wrong?  I don’t necessarily need to know the right answer, just where to

Response:

I’m an accounting student taking Managerial Accounting (Cost Accounting). I’m trying to prepare a production report using process cost accounting with the FIFO method.  During the cost reconciliation with the work in process account and units completed I’ve run into a 46K mistake.  Is anyone willing to take a look at my Word document to tell me where I’m wrong?  I don’t necessarily need to know the right answer, just where to

For a start, you should be using excel.  That should alleviate arithmetic errors, assuming the formulas are entered correctly. — sarah clark My experience as a member of the APB (Accounting Principles Board) taught me many lessons.  A major one was that most of us have a natural tendency and an incredible talent for processing new facts in such a way that our prior conclusions remain intact.   — Charles Horngren

Response:

 For a start, you should be using excel.  That should alleviate arithmetic errors, assuming the formulas are entered correctly. — sarah clark

I thought about using excel, and I have for other reports, but with all the typing formatting needed, I decided word would be best.  I know calculator for the arithmetic

Response:

Question:

Is there a general rule for expensing vs.depreciating an album or project for a company that creates/ releases it? How many years for depreciation, if that’s the way it should be done?

The costs to produce and engineer the recordings (your studio & mixing time) are capital assets amortizable over 15 years.  See Section 197(e)(4)(A) or Regulations 1.197.2(c)(4).  My take on this includes the artwork and photography for a jacket liner too.  Basically all the costs from the day you walk into the studio until you take it to the press.  Any costs incurred to burn the CD’s, press albums, or produce tapes (manufacturing costs) for resale are inventory and treated as such. We handle tax and accounting related issues for the music industry, so if you have other specific questions, please let me know. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com Path: news.sol.net!spool0-nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-out.vi si.com!hermes.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com! dc1.nntp.concentric.net!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!ne wsfeed.ozemail.com.au!ozemail.com.au!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.accounting Organization: The World’s Usenet — http://www.Supernews.com X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 2 NNTP-Posting-Host: wonenara.ozemail.com.au Distribution: world This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

Response:

Is there a general rule for expensing vs.depreciating an album or project for a company that creates/releases it? How many years for depreciation, if that’s the way it should be done? Thanks! Tony

Response:

Is there a general rule for expensing vs.depreciating an album or project for a company that creates/ releases it? How many years for depreciation, if that’s the way it should be done?

The costs to produce and engineer the recordings (your studio & mixing time) are capital assets amortizable over 15 years.  See Section 197(e)(4)(A) or Regulations 1.197.2(c)(4).  My take on this includes the artwork and photography for a jacket liner too.  Basically all the costs from the day you walk into the studio until you take it to the press.  Any costs incurred to burn the CD’s, press albums, or produce tapes (manufacturing costs) for resale are inventory and treated as such. We handle tax and accounting related issues for the music industry, so if you have other specific questions, please let me know. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

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Question:

Can someone with one kind of bipolar pass on a predisposition for a different kind of bipolar?  My dad only gets manic but I get both manic and depressed.  Also, does it skip a generation?  It seems like my aunt was OK and her daughter was OK but both her kids got it.

I think so.  My husband’s maternal grandfather had BP II from the family tales.  His mother likewise.  He and his sister have had episodes of depression but no mania. My maternal grandmother had BP I (from family stories).  Mother’s sister G. had depressive episodes, got her first mania in her seventies. One cousin (not G.’s daughter but other aunt D.’s) has had at least one mania.  I have BP I, my sister likewise. A friend’s mother has BP I and none of her children have it. And so on.

Response:

Can someone with one kind of bipolar pass on a predisposition for a different kind of bipolar?  My dad only gets manic but I get both manic and depressed.  Also, does it skip a generation?  It seems like my aunt was OK and her daughter was OK but both her kids got it. — "We can have a democratic society or we can have great concentrated wealth in the hands of a few. We cannot have both." – Louis Brandeis Supreme Court Justice (1916-39)

Response:

Can someone with one kind of bipolar pass on a predisposition for a different kind of bipolar?  My dad only gets manic but I get both manic and depressed.  Also, does it skip a generation?  It seems like my aunt was OK and her daughter was OK but both her kids got it.

Genes so far linked to bipolar disorder include three differing forms of the serotonin receptor in the brain; five or more different second messenger proteins (G proteins) which carry receptor activity into the brain cell, the neuron; dysregulation of dopamine receptor activity in the frontal cortex, particularly D2 and D3 sites; insensitivity to thyrotropin hormones; adrenal cortical defects, particularly in cotisol regulation; a point mutation in the GABA/calcium channel leading to hyperpolarization; and this is just off the top of my sore aching head. Oh yeah, also a potential defect in the fatty acid elongation enzyme, whose name escapes me, which leads to deficiencies in neuronal membrane concentrations of DHA and EPA, omega 3 fatty acids found in fish. Heritability does have a specific meaning in the science of genetics. It means precisely the amount to which the genetic component of a trait or illness contributes to the observed trait or illness. To use the more common nature vs. nurture phraseology, schizophrenia and bipolar mood disorder are believed to be 80% the result of genetic effects, with undetermined environmental influences accounting for the other 20%. Of course, these are only estimates, derived from statistical analysis of groups or samples of the population at large. I have seen heritability estimates of greater than 80% for bipolar disorder. Moreover, some of the same genes predispose towards more than one of the disorders listed below; i.e. the same gene may predispose both towards mood disorders and alcoholism and schizophrenia. Bipolar disorder is heterogenous, involving a number of genes, with differing alleles having greater or lesser dominance and penetrance. What that means is that differing forms of the the implicated genes have differing effects in different groups or individuals. That is why there is not a single treatment modality that works for everyone. —

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Question:

What is the purpose of the "Spam Bait" at the end of your posts.  It looks interesting. James

Response:

:What is the purpose of the "Spam Bait" at the end of your posts.  It looks :interesting. Dear James, Spambaits are a futile attempt to disrupt the activities of spammers (senders of unsolicited commercial email) by including false addresses at the end of one’s posts. Spamming is a mass activity where a few additional false addresses here or there are no problem to the Interenet lowlife. The spamming databases are full of also false addresses anyway. A bit more on the subject of countering spamming e.g. in http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/spamfoil.html#links Since this is no more an accounting subject. I have reset the    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Timo’s  procmail tips at  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/proctips.html

Response:

What is the purpose of the "Spam Bait" at the end of your posts.  It looks interesting.

It seems to be an attempt to get dumb name harvesters scanning usenet messages to add addresses that the spammer might not want to have his email sent to…

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Question:

You want to be a TeleCommuter?  Try "Telecommuting Job Opportunities": http://www.tjobs.com/jobopps.htm Joe Morris eBusiness Sales Consultant http://www.icode.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am curious as to whether there are opportunities to earn an income from undertaking professional accounting / tax work on the internet.  I am interested in discovering whether I can obtain training and employment in the US while living in Australia. I wish to work for an accounting practice located in the US. I would prepare taxation returns and undertake other accounting work. However I would be located in Australia and all my work and other communications for the accounting business would be via the internet. Can anyone assist me in identifying accounting businesses which are interested in this type of arrangement? Alternatively, where can I obtain more information on accounting businesses which are interested in this type of arrangement? Finall, what professional qualifications do I require? Any advice / assistance would be appreciated.

Response:

I am curious as to whether there are opportunities to earn an income from undertaking professional accounting / tax work on the internet.  I am interested in discovering whether I can obtain training and employment in the US while living in Australia. I wish to work for an accounting practice located in the US. I would prepare taxation returns and undertake other accounting work. However I would be located in Australia and all my work and other communications for the accounting business would be via the internet. Can anyone assist me in identifying accounting businesses which are interested in this type of arrangement? Alternatively, where can I obtain more information on accounting businesses which are interested in this type of arrangement? Finall, what professional qualifications do I require? Any advice / assistance would be appreciated.

Response:

Question:

Kodak Shares Plunge 25 Percent Associated Press Writer= 05:26 PM ET 09/26/00 ROCHESTER, N.Y. (AP) _ Shares of Eastman Kodak Co. slid 25 percent Tuesday to their lowest level in more than six years after the world’s largest photography company warned it will fall short of third-quarter earnings projections due to an unexpected falloff in demand for photography products.

Well, their films (apart from b/w…mmm, Tri-X) aren’t normally the first choice – Fuji seem to clean up in the E6 sector [1], and Fuji colour print films have been ahead for some time IMO.  Kodak digital cameras suffer from clunky design, although they might perform perfectly well for all I know.   This 4000 x 4000 pixel CCD should save them though [1] in UK landscape magazines, *everything* is shot on Velvia! — Roger *** Please remove the obvious from my e-mail address *** Ding dong, the Witch is dead.  Which Witch? The Wicked Witch!

Response:

David Greenfield wrote that AP reported that Bob Brust, Kodak CFO said: "We’re in a big derailment right here and we’re trying to figure out what it is …. "The thing that’s amazing is how fast all of a sudden it happened and how our sales just kind of flattened right out … "The surprising thing is that it’s kind of widespread, you can’t really pin it down on any unit performance or any one product … "

It is worth noting that this sounds a lot like a dip in a random walk. All products have a periodicity to them – sales go up and down, pretty much at random – and this random walk is superimposed over the general sales trend. Every now and then the sales of a great number of a company’s products can take a dip at the same time. There is no rhyme or reason for it. It is statistically predictable as 1/f noise – where the amplitude of the noise in a measurement is inversely proportional to its frequency. Wait long enough and the Sun blows up, and ain’t that going to be a crash on Wall street. See the classic text "A Random Walk Down Wall Street." Better yet, any any good primer (Ha!) on stochastic processes. "We are nothing but the victims of a series of accidents." – Kurt Vonegut — Technical Management Consulting & Engineering Services: New Product Development; Electrical Engineering; Software, System and Circuit Design.  Oh, & Photography

Response:

  ROCHESTER, N.Y. (AP) _ Shares of Eastman Kodak Co. slid 25 percent   Tuesday to their lowest level in more than six years after the world’s   largest photography company warned it will fall short of third-quarter   earnings projections due to an unexpected falloff in demand for   photography products. products= film and processing, etc. Digital camera sales are booming. From my own experience, I’m shooting 95% less film and processing since I began snapshooting with a digicam. Pro film aside, the mom and pop shooters were always the mainstay of Kodak. Give ‘em a digicam that they like and there will be a bloodletting.  Think about what happened to Super 8 "movies" when video came out. John

Response:

Pro film aside, the mom and pop shooters were always the mainstay of Kodak.

They still are — professional imaging produces less than 10% of Kodak’s profits, and it’s a lower-margin segment than consumer imaging. —                        "My other bike is a car."                                        http://www.wolfenet.com/~josh/

Response:

They still are — professional imaging produces less than 10% of Kodak’s profits, and it’s a lower-margin segment than consumer imaging.

Well, they got that backwards then.  Low volume stuff is usually high mark up.  High volume is commodity product, and margins are driven to the bone. Ask any farmer. — Technical Management Consulting & Engineering Services: New Product Development; Electrical Engineering; Software, System and Circuit Design.  Oh, & Photography

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ROCHESTER, N.Y. (AP) _ Shares of Eastman Kodak Co. slid 25 percent Tuesday to their lowest level in more than six years after the world’s largest photography company warned it will fall short of third-quarter earnings projections due to an unexpected falloff in demand for photography products. products= film and processing, etc. Digital camera sales are booming. From my own experience, I’m shooting 95% less film and processing since I began snapshooting with a digicam. Pro film aside, the mom and pop shooters were always the mainstay of Kodak. Give ‘em a digicam that they like and there will be a bloodletting.  Think about what happened to Super 8 "movies" when video came out.

My theory is that as soon as the technology to make decent prints from digital cameras quickly and conveniently, silver film and paper sales will quickly tank.  Whether the technology finds its way into instant photolabs or home equipment, color negative film will decline just like Polaroid did. It won’t go away completely.  Digital will rule in a few years, but I do think that people want good, durable hard copy prints.   In that area, digital prints will actually be superior to silver, which have a short life.  The latest Epson technology is supposed to yield prints that last for something like 150 years, far beyond the capabilities of today’s photographic papers.  It will take a while for Joe Snapshot to get his prints and for the price of everything to come down enough, but it is close, and in this new world, Kodak is a strong but not dominant player. — Gerry Palo                               Denver, Colorado Note:

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -David Greenfield wrote that AP reported that Bob Brust, Kodak CFO said: "We’re in a big derailment right here and we’re trying to figure out what it is …. "The thing that’s amazing is how fast all of a sudden it happened and how our sales just kind of flattened right out … "The surprising thing is that it’s kind of widespread, you can’t really pin it down on any unit performance or any one product … " It is worth noting that this sounds a lot like a dip in a random walk. All products have a periodicity to them – sales go up and down, pretty much at random – and this random walk is superimposed over the general sales trend. Every now and then the sales of a great number of a company’s products can take a dip at the same time. There is no rhyme or reason for it. It is statistically predictable as 1/f noise – where the amplitude of the noise in a measurement is inversely proportional to its frequency. Wait long enough and the Sun blows up, and ain’t that going to be a crash on Wall street. See the classic text "A Random Walk Down Wall Street."

I may be wrong, but I believe that the basic premise of that book is the efficient market theory, that the market factors in all value components and you can’t beat it. Which means that Kodak’s stock is fairly priced. Whether it is true or not, Kodak’s stock has been declining for the past two years, and technologically they are in a bad position in the marketplace, or at least they are not in the catbird seat they used to be in where future growth is concerned. — Gerry Palo                               Denver, Colorado Note:

Response:

They still are — professional imaging produces less than 10% of Kodak’s profits, and it’s a lower-margin segment than consumer imaging. Well, they got that backwards then.  Low volume stuff is usually high mark up.  High volume is commodity product, and margins are driven to the bone. Ask any farmer.

Now you know why they’ve been slowly axing products that make people here howl in protest, high-cost niche-market things like 4×5 infrared.  Of course, they may keep some prestige products even at terrible margins, much like Cadillac and the V-16, just so they can claim to have the best in the field, knowing full well that most people won’t buy the best, even if they buy from the company that makes the best. —                        "My other bike is a car."                                        http://www.wolfenet.com/~josh/

Response:

Kodak Shares Plunge 25 Percent Associated Press Writer= 05:26 PM ET 09/26/00 ROCHESTER, N.Y. (AP) _ Shares of Eastman Kodak Co. slid 25 percent Tuesday to their lowest level in more than six years after the world’s largest photography company warned it will fall short of third-quarter earnings projections due to an unexpected falloff in demand for photography products.

So, is that at Bad Thing?

Response:

I work for a large defense contractor that went into a "free fall" last summer (99). The problem didn’t stem from a sales fall off, but from internal reporting changes. We hired a new CEO, and his style was radically different from the previous one. He wanted people to tell the truth, and not totally fabricate their future projections. The result? The shit hit the fan almost overnight! Stock tumbled, layoffs, etc. But nothing had really changed with the company’s markets, customers, or sales. So maybe the Kodak situation is the same?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kodak Shares Plunge 25 Percent Associated Press Writer= 05:26 PM ET 09/26/00 ROCHESTER, N.Y. (AP) _ Shares of Eastman Kodak Co. slid 25 percent Tuesday to their lowest level in more than six years after the world’s largest photography company warned it will fall short of third-quarter earnings projections due to an unexpected falloff in demand for photography products. “We’re in a big derailment right here and we’re trying to figure out what it is,” Bob Brust, Kodak’s chief financial officer, said Tuesday. “The thing that’s amazing is how fast all of a sudden it happened and how our sales just kind of flattened right out,” he told analysts during a conference call. Kodak predicted earnings would be 20 cents to 25 cents per share lower than its previously projected range of $1.56 to $1.66 a share. Fourth-quarter projections could also be revised downward if current sales trends persist and worldwide economic growth continues to slow, Kodak said. The company will provide an updated view of the fourth quarter when it announces third-quarter results on Oct. 18. Kodak fell $14.63 to $44.38 on the New York Stock Exchange, its lowest level since April 1994. The component of the 30-company Dow Jones industrial average helped lead the widely watched market benchmark 175 points lower. While Kodak has been hobbled by heightened competition in the film industry in recent years, its announcement Tuesday served to intensify Wall Street’s uneasiness about earnings. Across-the-board weaknesses in nearly all of Kodak’s businesses will likely bring down revenues by $200 million to $300 million in the third quarter, the Rochester-based company said. The setback came while Kodak was trying to overcome higher costs for raw materials, rising investments in digital photography and the adverse effect of a strong U.S. dollar in Europe. “For shipments to deteriorate so far so fast,” big retailers must be cutting back on the amount of film, cameras and other photographic materials they’re buying, Yannas said. “The retailers, led by Wal-Mart, have been exceptionally careful with how much inventory they carry,” he said. Brust also hinted at evidence of a slowness in sales to some major retailers. “That may signal they’re slowing down their inventories at the end of September,” which is traditionally the quarter’s strongest period for Kodak, he said. While Kodak had anticipated difficulties in Europe, where the euro has shed nearly 27 percent of its value against the dollar since its January 1999 launch, it was caught off-guard by weakness in the U.S. market. “The surprising thing is that it’s kind of widespread, you can’t really pin it down on any unit performance or any one product,” Brust said.

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See the classic text "A Random Walk Down Wall Street." I may be wrong, but I believe that the basic premise of that book is the efficient market theory, that the market factors in all value components and you can’t beat it. Which means that Kodak’s stock is fairly priced. Whether it is true or not, Kodak’s stock has been declining for the past two years, and technologically they are in a bad position in the marketplace, or at least they are not in the catbird seat they used to be in where future growth is concerned.

It is, somewhat, in the 2nd edition.  The 1st edition was far more nihilistic. The premise is that the underlying price and trend of a stock fairly represents its true value – as near as anyone can tell.  Which is a syllogism, and therefore true. However, on top of this there is great deal of noise – the stock price bounces around like flotsam on a stormy sea. The point I got out of the book is that one has to ignore the noise content – the daily fluctuations and the quarterly results – and look at very long term trends. Just as it is impossible to generate electricity from the noise voltage of a resistor or bad connection, it is impossible to make long term gains on the stock market by trying to day-trade on the noise. However, he ignores the old adage: even a blind chicken finds a grain now and then.  It is, of course, better to be a sighted chicken. — Technical Management Consulting & Engineering Services: New Product Development; Electrical Engineering; Software, System and Circuit Design.  Oh, & Photography

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  My theory is that as soon as the technology to make decent prints from   digital cameras quickly and conveniently, silver film and paper sales   will quickly tank.  Whether the technology finds its way into instant   photolabs or home equipment, color negative film will decline just like   Polaroid did. It won’t go away completely.  Digital will rule in a few   years, but I do think that people want good, durable hard copy prints.   In that area, digital prints will actually be superior to silver, which   have a short life.  The latest Epson technology is supposed to yield   prints that last for something like 150 years, far beyond the   capabilities of today’s photographic papers.  It will take a while for   Joe Snapshot to get his prints and for the price of everything to come   down enough, but it is close, and in this new world, Kodak is a strong   but not dominant player. Fortunately for Kodak and others, a large segment of the digital clan do not want make prints at home, partly for the same reasons they do not have home darkrooms.  In my own experience, the cost of making really good, lasting prints at home is simply too much.  Then you add the cost of mistakes and it really gets high.  And I am in the position where I have access to printers for free.  (It’s just the ink and paper and dye-sub stuff I have to buy!) For me, cleaning up the shot and cropping, then sending to places like printroom.com via the net make so much more sense. I’ve alreadyt seen the picutre and I can wait a week for the prints. They make real photo prints, so the Kodaks and Fujis will still supply that part of the market. But film…my use is WAY down.  Now I shoot digital for snaps and only buy medium format and 4×5 film for when I want to get my hands wet with fixer. John

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My theory is that as soon as the technology to make decent prints from digital cameras quickly and conveniently, silver film and paper sales will quickly tank.  Whether the technology finds its way into instant photolabs or home equipment, color negative film will decline just like Polaroid did. It won’t go away completely.  Digital will rule in a few years, but I do think that people want good, durable hard copy prints. In that area, digital prints will actually be superior to silver, which have a short life.  The latest Epson technology is supposed to yield prints that last for something like 150 years, far beyond the capabilities of today’s photographic papers.  It will take a while for Joe Snapshot to get his prints and for the price of everything to come down enough, but it is close, and in this new world, Kodak is a strong but not dominant player. Fortunately for Kodak and others, a large segment of the digital clan do not want make prints at home, partly for the same reasons they do not have home darkrooms.  In my own experience, the cost of making really good, lasting prints at home is simply too much.  Then you add the cost of mistakes and it really gets high.  And I am in the position where I have access to printers for free.  (It’s just the ink and paper and dye-sub stuff I have to buy!) For me, cleaning up the shot and cropping, then sending to places like printroom.com via the net make so much more sense. I’ve alreadyt seen the picutre and I can wait a week for the prints. They make real photo prints, so the Kodaks and Fujis will still supply that part of the market. But film…my use is WAY down.  Now I shoot digital for snaps and only buy medium format and 4×5 film for when I want to get my hands wet with fixer.

This sums it up pretty well.  Whatever the method — home, 1-hour lab or Internet, digital is going to eat silver’s lunch in Kodak’s biggest market. On top of that, Fuji is doing the same with its film, a kind of double whammy for Kodak. The magic of the yellow box has been cracked.   Kodak has become a little like McDonalds (but not, one hopes, like Howard Johnson).  Add the third whammy of a weak Euro, and it is not a happy story. But of course technology does funny things.  Who would have thought a few years ago that paper use would skyrocket instead of shrink in the computer age?  And who would have dreamed that the number one means of electronic communication, until the emergence of the Internet, would be the fax machine?  I’m thinking about this new super-emulsion that is supposed to be able to capture every photon.  Its development into products would have to be pretty spectacular, but it might make for interesting possibilities. — Gerry Palo                               Denver, Colorado Note:

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I work for a large defense contractor that went into a "free fall" last summer (99). The problem didn’t stem from a sales fall off, but from internal reporting changes. That’s rather irrelevant to the Kodak situation, in which sales slowing was mentioned as the cause.

Mmmm … yes and no.  It may be that Kodak’s problems this quarter are an artifact of some other internal change – accounting practice etc. – where the problem is due to a bug in either the new or the old procedure. That the problem affects ‘everything’ seems strange. But, then, there are days (and gag, sometimes years) when ‘everything’ seems to go wrong with my life.  So, hey, what’s good for me is good for Kodak. — Technical Management Consulting & Engineering Services: New Product Development; Electrical Engineering; Software, System and Circuit Design.  Oh, & Photography

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My theory is that as soon as the technology to make decent prints from digital cameras quickly and conveniently, silver film and paper sales will quickly tank.  Whether the technology finds its way into instant photolabs or home equipment, color negative film will decline just like Polaroid did. It won’t go away completely.  Digital will rule in a few years, but I do think that people want good, durable hard copy prints. In that area, digital prints will actually be superior to silver, which have a short life.  The latest Epson technology is supposed to yield prints that last for something like 150 years, far beyond the capabilities of today’s photographic papers.  It will take a while for Joe Snapshot to get his prints and for the price of everything to come down enough, but it is close, and in this new world, Kodak is a strong but not dominant player. Fortunately for Kodak and others, a large segment of the digital clan do not want make prints at home, partly for the same reasons they do not have home darkrooms.  In my own experience, the cost of making really good, lasting prints at home is simply too much.  Then you add the cost of mistakes and it really gets high.  And I am in the position where I have access to printers for free.  (It’s just the ink and paper and dye-sub stuff I have to buy!)

An article in today’s (Thursday, 9/28) Wall Street Journal reports that Kodak is working on a line of low cost consumer digital cameras and a user-friendly printer.  You may be right, but Kodak is hedging this one. For me, cleaning up the shot and cropping, then sending to places like printroom.com via the net make so much more sense. I’ve alreadyt seen the picutre and I can wait a week for the prints. They make real photo prints, so the Kodaks and Fujis will still supply that part of the market. But film…my use is WAY down.  Now I shoot digital for snaps and only buy medium format and 4×5 film for when I want to get my hands wet with fixer.

Both Kodak and Fuji have noted that film sales are down for the last twelve months, and both say they don’t know why.  Sooner or later it will become clear that for snapshot color pictures, digital printing is superior to silver.  At last it will be possible for the consumer to get his prints back color corrected correctly. — Gerry Palo                               Denver, Colorado Note:

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Highly, highly unlikely. After all, the CFO, who would be intimately knowledgeable about any such changes resulting from changes in accounting practices, revealed none, nor have any required filings been made with the SEC to support your this wild guess of yours.

I agree, it is unlikely.  But, on the other hand, true mysteries often come from highly unlikely sources. When I lose something and can’t find it after exhaustive search I know that it is in one of two places:   o  Someplace very unlikely where I have not bothered to look ’cause I      know it ain’t there   o  Someplace so very out in the open I keep looking right past it, a la      "The Purloined Letter" — Technical Management Consulting & Engineering Services: New Product Development; Electrical Engineering; Software, System and Circuit Design.  Oh, & Photography

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Highly, highly unlikely. After all, the CFO, who would be intimately knowledgeable about any such changes resulting from changes in accounting practices, revealed none, nor have any required filings been made with the SEC to support your this wild guess of yours. I agree, it is unlikely.  But, on the other hand, true mysteries often come from highly unlikely sources. Evewn unliklier when you pay attention to the CFO of the company who indicated the cause was due to lower sales and NOT, as you repeatedly proffer without any evidence, other factors. We hear hoofbeats, the company says ‘horse’ and you keep suggesting ‘zebra.’ You’re not making any sense and you offer no supporting evidence whatsoever. I suggest you reappraise your hypothesis.

The problem, of course, is to determine why sales are lower.  That is not easy to do, especially when a trend has begun and it is not just a mix of temporary conditions, like the lower Euro or the higher price of oil.   From the WSJ article, the current earnings shortfall is being taken as a confirmation of the longer term perceived trend that whatever intermediate surges there may be, there is basically no future in the silver halide film and paper market, and that in the digital markets Kodak does not have the dominating position they once held, and still hold, to a great extent, in silver photography. — Gerry Palo                               Denver, Colorado Note:

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We hear hoofbeats, the company says ‘horse’ and you keep suggesting ‘zebra.’ You’re not making any sense and you offer no supporting evidence whatsoever. I suggest you reappraise your hypothesis.

Ok – it’s heffalumps! Or camels, or bison, or buffalo, or sea cucumbers. Calm down David, or it’ll be high blood pressure and a stroke.                                         Nicholas Lindan                                         Adamant in his right to be wrong

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FWIW, it is not only Kodak or even the film industry that is taking hits. SEC 10Q filings and quarterly earnings announcements are coming out now. Quite a number of firms in many industries are making announcements.  I heard on CNN this morning that Apple is taking a big hit, with profits off 33% or so.  Therefore, what we are seeing with Kodak is not necessarily something unusual for equities markets.  It happens fairly often when quarterly earnings announcements come out.  But, people mostly don’t notice unless they have a stake, either as a shareholder, employee, supplier, customer, etc., of the firm in question. Woodard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My theory is that as soon as the technology to make decent prints from digital cameras quickly and conveniently, silver film and paper sales will quickly tank.  Whether the technology finds its way into instant photolabs or home equipment, color negative film will decline just like Polaroid did. It won’t go away completely.  Digital will rule in a few years, but I do think that people want good, durable hard copy prints. In that area, digital prints will actually be superior to silver, which have a short life.  The latest Epson technology is supposed to yield prints that last for something like 150 years, far beyond the capabilities of today’s photographic papers.  It will take a while for Joe Snapshot to get his prints and for the price of everything to come down enough, but it is close, and in this new world, Kodak is a strong but not dominant player. Fortunately for Kodak and others, a large segment of the digital clan do not want make prints at home, partly for the same reasons they do not have home darkrooms.  In my own experience, the cost of making really good, lasting prints at home is simply too much.  Then you add the cost of mistakes and it really gets high.  And I am in the position where I have access to printers for free.  (It’s just the ink and paper and dye-sub stuff I have to buy!) For me, cleaning up the shot and cropping, then sending to places like printroom.com via the net make so much more sense. I’ve alreadyt seen the picutre and I can wait a week for the prints. They make real photo prints, so the Kodaks and Fujis will still supply that part of the market. But film…my use is WAY down.  Now I shoot digital for snaps and only buy medium format and 4×5 film for when I want to get my hands wet with fixer. John

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Nicholas Lindan [wrote]: Adamant in his right to be wrong And you’re doing a wonderful job of it.

Why, thank you. — Technical Management Consulting & Engineering Services: New Product Development; Electrical Engineering; Software, System and Circuit Design.  Oh, & Photography

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We hear hoofbeats, the company says ‘horse’ and you keep suggesting ‘zebra.’ You’re not making any sense and you offer no supporting evidence whatsoever. I suggest you reappraise your hypothesis. Ok – it’s heffalumps! Or camels, or bison, or buffalo, or sea cucumbers. Calm down David I’m calm, but you’re just suggesting improbable ideas contradicted by Kodak itself. Maybe you shoudl calm down. Nicholas Lindan Adamant in his right to be wrong And you’re doing a wonderful job of it.

After attending the PMA KODAK Pro dealers meeting last February, it wasn’t hard nor beyond prediction of a problem abrew. The climax was when one dealer who had been supporting a local college finds out Kodak direct on line was outselling him by dealing with the school. Just one of those Home Depot thingy’s….

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ROCHESTER, N.Y. (AP) _ Shares of Eastman Kodak Co. slid 25 percent Tuesday to their lowest level in more than six years after the world’s largest photography company warned it will fall short of third-quarter earnings projections due to an unexpected falloff in demand for photography products.

There are many companies across the spectrum reporting the same thing. So there are a lot of working people finally realizing that being told over and over again that we are in a booming economy didn’t really translate into the ability to pay all that credit card debt they’d been building. — Kirk Experience is the best teacher…      But her pop quizzes can be mighty tough.

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          Maybe if the CEO, or whatever they’re calling themselves lately, went shopping once in a while, he could stop wringing his hands about the Euro and the rest of the BS.                            Today in Target, I got 4 rolls of Fuji for $5.99 as opposed to Kodaks $4,29 for one roll of the same. What I can’t understand is, what’s to understand.                Bob Hickey

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Question:

As I said in my late night & impulsive " rebuke", my statements were referring to the notes of some of the members, ie: to paraphrase one: we have to try and answer the dumb questions of all those dumb, out of shape nonrunners so that we can convert them into runners and to better health.

Sort of like how some of my artist friends complain about how dumb some people are about art and how they have to answer their dumb questions so they’ll be able to appreciate art and it’s incredible importance to society? And how it should be supported by taxes even tho taxpayers are too stupid to appreciate it? <And no, I’m not opposed to NEA grants. But artists are their own worse enemies with their arrogance in defending some of the crap masquerading as "art." I simply felt compelled to make the point to them, that there were many other forms of exercise and sports which are equally challenging and interesting and good & bad for your health, and that the assumption that "nonrunners" were dumb and out of shape was ludricrous and clearly condescending.

And there are many kinds of art. Some people don’t like certain types and can see no value in them,. The assumption that they are therefor dumb and unlearned would be ludicrous and condescending, perhaps? <big snip of how honest and open all artists are Sorry, but I see in your postings the same character flaws you attribute to the runners here. Let’s see, what was that quote. "You must first take the plank out of your own eye?" Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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I as well did not mean to "attack" more to explain.  I think in writing a post it is sometime very difficult to get a point across without somehow leading others in the wrong direction. I think you are right it is alot more fun to talk to people in person. So now that we are on a speaking level, and without trying to offend to many for going off topic, being a gardner, can you send me some seeds for Marechal Foch grapes.  Can’t find them anywhere down here in Atlanta!!  :o) With Respect Brian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – dear brian: this message is from ellie kahana, not dave. Thanks for your response, I enjoyed reading it. I think you got the wrong impression about two things.     One, I had no intention of "condemning" all runners, I used to run myself, and although I was by no means a long distance runner, I was an excellent sprinter. I think running is very interesting and challenging, and I admire runners, both professionals, and amateurs. As I said in my late night & impulsive " rebuke", my statements were referring to the notes of some of the members, ie: to paraphrase one: we have to try and answer the dumb questions of all those dumb, out of shape nonrunners so that we can convert them into runners and to better health. I simply felt compelled to make the point to them, that there were many other forms of exercise and sports which are equally challenging and interesting and good & bad for your health, and that the assumption that "nonrunners" were dumb and out of shape was ludricrous and clearly condescending.      I’m not a teenager, contrary to what some of the people who responded seem to think? I’m an artist and an assistant professor of Fine Art. I frequently deal with any number of questions from students and all sorts of people about art, and I never condescend to them, I try to explain exactly what my thoughts, ideas and feelings are, and teach them how to make their own decisions and judgements, in part by allowing them to drop some of their preconceptions, so that they can have the exquisite experience of "meeting", absorbing, and getting inside a work of art, and then bringing it inside themselves.      As for my "lack of respect" for dave, I meant no disrespect to him, I’m not very computer literate yet, and believed if I signed my name to my "diatribe", it would be clear that it wasn’t dave who was writing the message. I really wasn’t fully aware of the reasonable paranoia and or the secretive writing that goes on on the internet groups, certainly I’m surprised that it would occur in a running group.      As I said, I’m an artist: we have some of the most racy and devil advocate discussions you could imagine, where everything goes, but we rarely try to disguise who we are, since it’s almost always face to face (for me never on the internet yet), and we do it, because we really want to analyze everything about art, our own and everyone elses, well, not everyone’s, but you know… and what it means. I’m not saying toes are never stepped on,feathers ruffled, insults flung, or devious things done etc.: I and others witnessed a near fistfight between a student and the graduate director at SVA. But it’s usually straightforward, and if it isn’t, most people are still interested (unless it’s clearly personally or gratuitously vicious),even more interested if it’s down and dirty devil’s advocate. Most of us don’t take it to heart, or we take it to heart completely, or both, but it’s all part of the research process.      Yes,I realize this goes on in many fields activities, but most artists are unflappable in a special way: they have to be, because people are constantly insulting their work and questioning its meaning, and their commitment to it.If you don’t survive that, you won’t be an artist for very long. Curiously, they also have to be vulnerable in varying degrees, because they are constantly exposing their thoughts and feelings to whomever cares to "listen", some more so than others, but each still vulnerable, egotistical(obnoxiously or unobnoxiously), and selfdoubting. Some of the sweetest and most profound discussions I’ve had have been with people such as these.  In all honesty though, runners haven’t cornered the market on fanaticism, condescension, egotism, and other "ills", good and bad, or good or bad……     Well, again, apologies for any misunderstandings, or to anyone who felt insulted etc. Clearly, my message meant no harm. Thanks for all of your nice replies to anyone who wrote back and who reads this. Frankly I find computer talkingchatting too exhausting, I’m not sure why, but I guess I just prefer face to face, as long as the person(s) isare not too boring or crazy (actually it can sometimes be better that way). Sayonara and happy running to everyone at rec running.  A motto for life: take everything seriously & take nothing seriously.  And, as the man in the movie `Dear Diary’ said, `I have learned two things from all this: first that doctors speak very well but don’t know how to listen and second: drink a glass of water every morning before breakfast, it’s good for your kidneys.’ ps. thank you to the person who resolved the problem of sony walkmans, that helped me too. ps. to dirk, dave has given me 50 lashes with the mouse, I’m back in physical therapy, and I spent last night tied to an oak tree in my far from zen garden. Wow, don’t worry I’ll never do it again, I promise. Even my cats won’t speak to me, I’m so depressed. I’ve really learned my lesson, never again. ps. to brian, we all eat, we all screw and thats glorious too.    gardening has merits, with or without ferrets, it feeds the whole world, or is that    farming? I’m confused. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.apologies). Sincerely signed, Elinor Mindel Kahana Ellie I agree with some of what you had to say.  Let me say this. There are fanatics here, but there are also a large volume of good people just trying to help others get involved in a new sport. Gardening does have its merits. I agree that there is almost no greater joy to me in this world to plant a tiny speck of what appears to be nothing and watch it form over time to become a beautiful producing plant or flower (my wife handles the flowers I like the veggies).  But do not group all runners as bad people. Some of us do not run fast and some do. What is important here is that we all go out (or stay in) to do something that we believe is a good thing.  You may not have similar interest but that does not make you wrong or right. Having a different opinion that some of us here do makes life so interesting.  Can you imagine if everyone ran, it would not seem so glorious to us runners. I cannot help to carry-on by saying that I would hope you would show more respect for David and his name.  Reading and participating in this ng is important to him, show him more respect by not putting his name on the line. Nobody wants to be labelled as a troll.

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David, when I first read this, I thought you were anticipating a flood of suggestions as to how you should go about disciplining your young charge.

Ha! My charge … I think you can guess who is in charge ("Chain her to the radiator and feed her bread and water for 30 days! That’ll learn the lil’ brat to monkey with your stuff!")

You can read her account of what actually happened in her own words! I showedno mercy, none at all! Pretty amusing thread, actually. And for what it’s worth, my wife–with her gardening logbook and her passion for hours of research to find just the right plant for that bare spot near the Joe Pye Weed–would probably have reacted largely in the affirmative to Ellie’s work of fiction, had she been lurking. –Dirk

Ellie and I both appreciated the probable sentiments of your wife . cheers, – dave k.

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I cannot help to carry-on by saying that I would hope you would show more respect for David and his name.  Reading and participating in this ng is important to him, show him more respect by not putting his name on the line. Nobody wants to be labelled as a troll.

Thanks for defending my name, and for all of your other understanding words. Ellie really meant no disrespect to me. She didn’t even know what a troll was until I explained it to her. It’s the first time she posted anything to usenet. It was in retrospect just a happy accident. cheers, – dave k.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, I thought it was revealingly personal, sorta cute. She signed it with her own name and appended what I assume is her own E-mail address, so she wasn’t trying to pass herself off as you. And we DO have those "running missionaries" who come across like it cures everything from alcoholism to warts, and if only those (choose one: Serbs and Kosavars, Palestinians and Israelis, Irish Catholics and Protestants, etc.) would go out for a long run their problems would be over. Sometimes even a long-term runner like me thinks they’re over the top. So, don’t sweat it. Efrem Mallach P.S. You should see some of the stuff I get when our 16-year-old has been using my computer. On the other hand, maybe you shouldn’t. E.M.

Efrem — Thanks for your very kind reply. I know she wasn’t trying to pass herself off as me or anything like that, she just didn’t know that my name was still loaded into the browser. I didn’t want people to think I was maybe suffering from an advanced case of schizophrenia or a multiple personality disorder, though to a degree of course most of us probably do, and it isn’t such a bad thing. After all the two of us were raised close together, and to some extent her thoughts are mine, my thoughts are hers. There are some important physical/intellectual differences naturally! And I am not talking about resting heart rates or relative intelligence. That’s why the whole idea of converting seems dubious to me whether it’s to running, religion, ethnicity or nationality. Who is it that has been converted anyway? And what is the magical thing that happens, once you have called yourself Serb, Croat, Kosovar, Bosnian, American, Canadian, Jew or Arab or Persian? Many of us, me too, could as well say `I am an Ottoman Turk’, Rumanian, Macedonian or Greek, Scot or Pict if we wanted. It would be just as much a lie as the truth. Montenegrans, who in my experience are as proud as anyone on this point would never of course call themselves Turks, and are apparently taking in quite a few of the displaced Kosovars. But it is such a powerful drive among people, to be part of a tribe, that I am afraid you are right, to go out for a long run will not solve it. I am certainly not immune to it, and can be easily moved to anger when I meet certain people who make clear, in the crudest possible way, their opinions to me about what they imagine I am, even though I am not at all that which they imagine. It is though, not objectionable at all to call yourself a runner, even to be an evangelical runner I think. One thing in running’s favour. There is no magic about it, you just do it. It is quite real. It is my way of `being a better animal’. cheers, and warm regards – dave k.

Response:

Ozzie: Your words touched me very much. I loved the image of your daughters, bumping through the miles, growing, and finally sculling smoothly in their narrow shells over the still waters …. I have never experienced that either. I have seen it often, in places from Oxford to Boston, but never tried it. That seems strange now, and I have no accounting for it, `no way to make my old excuse’. Some of my earlier memories are of being pulled on a small sledge through the snow-walled streets of Montreal, behind my father, as he fetched the groceries no doubt. I remember speed, cold on my face, a sense of purpose and joy, but no bumps. To this day I love the snow, and will always head out for a 3-4 miler in a snowstorm. If only we could stay in the moment forever. But then, I rather suppose, there would be no perceiving it. thanks for your benediction! – dave k. ps: i think you may be as good a punner as you are a runner, and i will take your tacit advice on listening to my sister. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Dear Dave and Ellie,  Both of my daughters were raised around runners from "in utero" through 8  mile runs in pre-baby-jogger strollers(bump/bump bump/bump bump/bump), on  into bikes with training wheels/ without training wheels and into inline  skates.  Both of my daughters decided that running was not for them and got as far  away from running as humanly possible: crew.  Although they have to run to  row.  The rower’s high when the crew is in perfect sycn.  The rower’s high when  one hears the sound of the bubbles rushing against the hull. The view of  clear glass smooth water.  All of which I’ve never experienced except in my  mind’s eye and ear.  All of which have given my daughters the rower’s high  of which they speak so eloquently.  I appreciated the zen awareness which Ellie put forth.  Mindfulness is being in the moment and in running as in gardening it is  when one experiences an altered state of awareness:  no past/no future only  the appreciation and peak experience of the moment.  It touches both  mind/body/ spirit and resonates deep within.  That moment because of the  feeling attached stays with us…forever as a memory.  The scholastic philosophical definition of memory is: "Imagination of past  events."  So as time goes on our imagination of those peak experiences,  those endorphin highs (remember endorphin came from the term "endogenous  morphine"), those trance state memories, all embed themselves in our being.  For some of us it’s when we are running, that we enable ourselves to leave  our doing behind after 20 or 30 minutes and fall into that state of being.  We then often write about it in terms of the "doing of running" but like  the zen gardener we know it is only a metaphor for being mindfully in the  moment.  I chose to read: "allarmingly handicapped nonrunner" knowing how much Ellie  put herself into her typing  "All arm in glee, Why handicap d knowin’  runner."  So when one comes loaded for bear, it depends on how you spell it  to see how bare one is.  Thanks Ellie.  Thanks Dave.  Long live the Kahana spirit.  At first I thought "Runner" was back in a new guise, but as I read on I  felt the heart.  Again thanks for sharing…both of you.  –  In health and on the run,  Ozzie Gontang  Maintainer – rec.running FAQ  Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975  Mindful Running:   http://www.mindfulness.com

Response:

dear brian: this message is from ellie kahana, not dave. Thanks for your response, I enjoyed reading it. I think you got the wrong impression about two things.      One, I had no intention of "condemning" all runners, I used to run myself, and although I was by no means a long distance runner, I was an excellent sprinter. I think running is very interesting and challenging, and I admire runners, both professionals, and amateurs. As I said in my late night & impulsive " rebuke", my statements were referring to the notes of some of the members, ie: to paraphrase one: we have to try and answer the dumb questions of all those dumb, out of shape nonrunners so that we can convert them into runners and to better health. I simply felt compelled to make the point to them, that there were many other forms of exercise and sports which are equally challenging and interesting and good & bad for your health, and that the assumption that "nonrunners" were dumb and out of shape was ludricrous and clearly condescending.       I’m not a teenager, contrary to what some of the people who responded seem to think? I’m an artist and an assistant professor of Fine Art. I frequently deal with any number of questions from students and all sorts of people about art, and I never condescend to them, I try to explain exactly what my thoughts, ideas and feelings are, and teach them how to make their own decisions and judgements, in part by allowing them to drop some of their preconceptions, so that they can have the exquisite experience of "meeting", absorbing, and getting inside a work of art, and then bringing it inside themselves.       As for my "lack of respect" for dave, I meant no disrespect to him, I’m not very computer literate yet, and believed if I signed my name to my "diatribe", it would be clear that it wasn’t dave who was writing the message. I really wasn’t fully aware of the reasonable paranoia and or the secretive writing that goes on on the internet groups, certainly I’m surprised that it would occur in a running group.       As I said, I’m an artist: we have some of the most racy and devil advocate discussions you could imagine, where everything goes, but we rarely try to disguise who we are, since it’s almost always face to face (for me never on the internet yet), and we do it, because we really want to analyze everything about art, our own and everyone elses, well, not everyone’s, but you know… and what it means. I’m not saying toes are never stepped on,feathers ruffled, insults flung, or devious things done etc.: I and others witnessed a near fistfight between a student and the graduate director at SVA. But it’s usually straightforward, and if it isn’t, most people are still interested (unless it’s clearly personally or gratuitously vicious),even more interested if it’s down and dirty devil’s advocate. Most of us don’t take it to heart, or we take it to heart completely, or both, but it’s all part of the research process.       Yes,I realize this goes on in many fields activities, but most artists are unflappable in a special way: they have to be, because people are constantly insulting their work and questioning its meaning, and their commitment to it.If you don’t survive that, you won’t be an artist for very long. Curiously, they also have to be vulnerable in varying degrees, because they are constantly exposing their thoughts and feelings to whomever cares to "listen", some more so than others, but each still vulnerable, egotistical(obnoxiously or unobnoxiously), and selfdoubting. Some of the sweetest and most profound discussions I’ve had have been with people such as these.  In all honesty though, runners haven’t cornered the market on fanaticism, condescension, egotism, and other "ills", good and bad, or good or bad……      Well, again, apologies for any misunderstandings, or to anyone who felt insulted etc. Clearly, my message meant no harm. Thanks for all of your nice replies to anyone who wrote back and who reads this. Frankly I find computer talkingchatting too exhausting, I’m not sure why, but I guess I just prefer face to face, as long as the person(s) isare not too boring or crazy (actually it can sometimes be better that way). Sayonara and happy running to everyone at rec running.  A motto for life: take everything seriously & take nothing seriously.  And, as the man in the movie `Dear Diary’ said, `I have learned two things from all this: first that doctors speak very well but don’t know how to listen and second: drink a glass of water every morning before breakfast, it’s good for your kidneys.’ ps. thank you to the person who resolved the problem of sony walkmans, that helped me too. ps. to dirk, dave has given me 50 lashes with the mouse, I’m back in physical therapy, and I spent last night tied to an oak tree in my far from zen garden. Wow, don’t worry I’ll never do it again, I promise. Even my cats won’t speak to me, I’m so depressed. I’ve really learned my lesson, never again. ps. to brian, we all eat, we all screw and thats glorious too.     gardening has merits, with or without ferrets, it feeds the whole world, or is that     farming? I’m confused. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.apologies). Sincerely signed, Elinor Mindel Kahana – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ellie I agree with some of what you had to say.  Let me say this. There are fanatics here, but there are also a large volume of good people just trying to help others get involved in a new sport. Gardening does have its merits. I agree that there is almost no greater joy to me in this world to plant a tiny speck of what appears to be nothing and watch it form over time to become a beautiful producing plant or flower (my wife handles the flowers I like the veggies).  But do not group all runners as bad people. Some of us do not run fast and some do. What is important here is that we all go out (or stay in) to do something that we believe is a good thing.  You may not have similar interest but that does not make you wrong or right. Having a different opinion that some of us here do makes life so interesting.  Can you imagine if everyone ran, it would not seem so glorious to us runners. I cannot help to carry-on by saying that I would hope you would show more respect for David and his name.  Reading and participating in this ng is important to him, show him more respect by not putting his name on the line. Nobody wants to be labelled as a troll.

Response:

David E. Kahana DID NOT WRITE: Dear runners, [snip] Thank you kindly for your attention ,                                                                             from an allarmingly handicapped nonrunner                                                                             Sorry to any who might have been offended. These were not my opinions. I

was out, left the computer on, and came back to find that my sister had taken the opportunity to express a few little opinions to the world of rec.running, under my name. I am sure you will collectively know how to handle it in the best way. For my part, I will have to be more careful about logging out. I will pass

any responses on, but think it would be more than a little weird for me to enter further into any discussion. It might constitute an apparently self-referential flame war, and possibly

start a few real fires here at home. We clearly need more e-mail addresses. cheers,       – dave k.

Dear Dave and Ellie, Both of my daughters were raised around runners from "in utero" through 8 mile runs in pre-baby-jogger strollers(bump/bump bump/bump bump/bump), on into bikes with training wheels/ without training wheels and into inline skates. Both of my daughters decided that running was not for them and got as far away from running as humanly possible: crew.  Although they have to run to row. The rower’s high when the crew is in perfect sycn.  The rower’s high when one hears the sound of the bubbles rushing against the hull. The view of clear glass smooth water.  All of which I’ve never experienced except in my mind’s eye and ear.  All of which have given my daughters the rower’s high of which they speak so eloquently. I appreciated the zen awareness which Ellie put forth. Mindfulness is being in the moment and in running as in gardening it is when one experiences an altered state of awareness:  no past/no future only the appreciation and peak experience of the moment.  It touches both mind/body/ spirit and resonates deep within.  That moment because of the feeling attached stays with us…forever as a memory.   The scholastic philosophical definition of memory is: "Imagination of past events."  So as time goes on our imagination of those peak experiences, those endorphin highs (remember endorphin came from the term "endogenous morphine"), those trance state memories, all embed themselves in our being. For some of us it’s when we are running, that we enable ourselves to leave our doing behind after 20 or 30 minutes and fall into that state of being. We then often write about it in terms of the "doing of running" but like the zen gardener we know it is only a metaphor for being mindfully in the moment. I chose to read: "allarmingly handicapped nonrunner" knowing how much Ellie put herself into her typing  "All arm in glee, Why handicap d knowin’ runner."  So when one comes loaded for bear, it depends on how you spell it to see how bare one is.   Thanks Ellie.  Thanks Dave.  Long live the Kahana spirit.   At first I thought "Runner" was back in a new guise, but as I read on I felt the heart.  Again thanks for sharing…both of you. — In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer – rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975 Mindful Running:   http://www.mindfulness.com

Response:

David E. Kahana DID NOT WRITE: Dear runners, [snip]                                                                             Thank you kindly for your attention ,                                                                              from an allarmingly handicapped nonrunner Sorry to any who might have been offended. These were not my opinions. I was out, left the computer on, and came back to find that my sister had taken the opportunity to express a few little opinions to the world of rec.running, under my name. I am sure you will collectively know how to handle it in the best way. [...]

David, when I first read this, I thought you were anticipating a flood of suggestions as to how you should go about disciplining your young charge. ("Chain her to the radiator and feed her bread and water for 30 days! That’ll learn the lil’ brat to monkey with your stuff!") Pretty amusing thread, actually. And for what it’s worth, my wife–with her gardening logbook and her passion for hours of research to find just the right plant for that bare spot near the Joe Pye Weed–would probably have reacted largely in the affirmative to Ellie’s work of fiction, had she been lurking. –Dirk

Response:

Dave, I thought it was revealingly personal, sorta cute. She signed it with her own name and appended what I assume is her own E-mail address, so she wasn’t trying to pass herself off as you. And we DO have those "running missionaries" who come across like it cures everything from alcoholism to warts, and if only those (choose one: Serbs and Kosavars, Palestinians and Israelis, Irish Catholics and Protestants, etc.) would go out for a long run their problems would be over. Sometimes even a long-term runner like me thinks they’re over the top. So, don’t sweat it. Efrem Mallach P.S. You should see some of the stuff I get when our 16-year-old has been using my computer. On the other hand, maybe you shouldn’t. E.M. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David E. Kahana DID NOT WRITE: Dear runners, [snip]   Thank you kindly for your attention ,    from an allarmingly handicapped nonrunner Sorry to any who might have been offended. These were not my opinions. I was out, left the computer on, and came back to find that my sister had taken the opportunity to express a few little opinions to the world of rec.running, under my name. I am sure you will collectively know how to handle it in the best way. For my part, I will have to be more careful about logging out. I will pass any responses on, but think it would be more than a little weird for me to enter further into any discussion. It might constitute an apparently self-referential flame war, and possibly start a few real fires here at home. We clearly need more e-mail addresses. cheers, – dave k.

Response:

Ellie I agree with some of what you had to say.  Let me say this. There are fanatics here, but there are also a large volume of good people just trying to help others get involved in a new sport. Gardening does have its merits. I agree that there is almost no greater joy to me in this world to plant a tiny speck of what appears to be nothing and watch it form over time to become a beautiful producing plant or flower (my wife handles the flowers I like the veggies).  But do not group all runners as bad people. Some of us do not run fast and some do. What is important here is that we all go out (or stay in) to do something that we believe is a good thing.  You may not have similar interest but that does not make you wrong or right. Having a different opinion that some of us here do makes life so interesting.  Can you imagine if everyone ran, it would not seem so glorious to us runners. I cannot help to carry-on by saying that I would hope you would show more respect for David and his name.  Reading and participating in this ng is important to him, show him more respect by not putting his name on the line. Nobody wants to be labelled as a troll. David E. Kahana DID NOT WRITE: Dear runners, [snip]

Thank you kindly for your attention , from an allarmingly handicapped nonrunner Sorry to any who might have been offended. These were not my opinions. I was out, left the computer on, and came back to find that my sister had taken the opportunity to express a few little opinions to the world of rec.running, under my name. I am sure you will collectively know how to handle it in the best way. For my part, I will have to be more careful about logging out. I will pass any responses on, but think it would be more than a little weird for me to enter further

into any discussion. It might constitute an apparently self-referential flame war, and possibly

start a few real fires – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -here at home. We clearly need more e-mail addresses. cheers, – dave k.

Response:

Dear runners, I used to be a runner from about age 19-20. I was always in good shape ,however,  and never really had to exercise, but always participated in various different sports from childhood and on, including  horsebackriding, swimming, hiking, fencing, dancing,  skiing, walking etc. I simply don’t understand the attiitude of some of your members.  I mean really. you’de think that running was a  religious and orgasmic  experience.  Some of your members sound like the  christian right . And this view that running is the only possible physical activity that could allow anyone to be in good physical shape or to produce endorphins , or to lose weight if they need to is so ridiculous.     I hardly exercise at all now, except for gardening and limited walking and "ski machining", and the occasional hike up a small mountain when on holiday: due chronic pain from injuries in an mva, and I’m still in better shape than alot of people I know who run.  I’m not over weight, I have good muscle tone etc. etc. etc.  PS You should try the gardener’s high: gardening is just as masochistic as running, and you can enter contests too.  It also has an added bonus, you can see and  enjoy the tangible results for many years after the effort and pain are gone, so the artistic high goes on and on.     PS. Any  Chariots of  Fire fans out there?  It is still one of my favorite movies. ps. people who walk & paint outdoors are also "harassed",  I’ve  had many men offer me rides, and  dates and  have sold paintings also. Once I was the victim of an attempted abduction, seriously: women ,  and perhaps men also : don’t walk alone in lowly populated areas at night , definitely run, thats what I did, even after not having done so for many years, and  fortunately it worked, or I wouldn’t  be writing this rather silly email .                                                                             Thank you kindly for your attention ,                                                                              from an allarmingly handicapped nonrunner

Response:

David E. Kahana DID NOT WRITE: Dear runners, [snip]                                                                             Thank you kindly for your attention ,                                                                              from an allarmingly handicapped nonrunner

Sorry to any who might have been offended. These were not my opinions. I was out, left the computer on, and came back to find that my sister had taken the opportunity to express a few little opinions to the world of rec.running, under my name. I am sure you will collectively know how to handle it in the best way. For my part, I will have to be more careful about logging out. I will pass any responses on, but think it would be more than a little weird for me to enter further into any discussion. It might constitute an apparently self-referential flame war, and possibly start a few real fires here at home. We clearly need more e-mail addresses. cheers, – dave k.

Response:

Question:

Got so tired of feeling angry at him, so I wrote and sent this letter today, with cc’s to the manager of the office where he works and my T.                                                     April 3, 1998 C Health Center I remain in a state of disbelief with regard to your treatment of me for my breathing difficulties. On January 12, 1998 you questioned me with regard to depression when I was there to see you about a breathing problem. I found that to be patronizing, discounting, and insulting to my intelligence.  In addition it was in direct conflict with my t’pist’s request.  In a telephone conversation she told you that both she and I would like you to not attempt to get involved with my emotional issues. That day you did not  sit down to talk to me, you did not listen to my breathing, you simply asked me about depression, gave me some Combivent which did nothing to help, and excused yourself. Having emotional problems does not mean that a person cannot also have physical problems.  Having emotional problems does not mean that a person is not intelligent. I am a CPA, I have a masters degree in Accounting, am presently working on a masters degree at U in Computer Science and Engineering.  I belong to Mensa – the high IQ club with an IQ  higher than what is necessary to be eligible for membership. The next day, January 13, I came in for a breathing treatment.  I had gotten an ok from the nurse I spoke with on the phone.  While I was waiting for the nurse to set up the nebulizer, you walked in and without a greeting listened to me breathe and told me "You’re not very bad," referring to my breathing. Well, as I told you then, every single time I had felt as I did that morning my breathing had done nothing but get worse and worse and worse.  I told you that I hated to wait until it got as bad as it had been the previous day when I was unable to even speak. You didn’t say much. The next day I called your office because I wanted another breathing treatment.  I told the nurse my peak flow was 400 and that every time I’d felt that badly my breathing got worse and worse. The message relayed from you by your nurse was that 400 is a fine peak flow. It might interest you to know that the pulmonologist I am seeing has given me instructions that should my peak flow drop to 400, I should start using the nebulizer which I have at home now every 4 hours. But you did not take my word that I knew what I was talking about with regard to my own health. Not only did you not take my word then, but by the time I was given an ok to come in my peak flow had dropped to 270.  Per my pulmonologist I should go to the ER if it drops to 300. When I did come in you had already left, and the nurse practitioner did take me seriously and gave me a breathing treatment, put me on prednisone, vanceril, serevent, phenylphen.LA, and arranged to have a nebulizer delivered to my home that night, and I was told not to take part in any activitie s at all until I saw the pulmonologist on January 19. I am outraged that in your failure to take me seriously you might have put my life in jeopardy.  I am outraged when I remember how grueling that week was, because you failed to take me seriously. As a result of this experience, I will no longer be seeing anybody at I am unwilling to subject myself to such treatment again.  While I could see someone else  for appointments, there is no way to guarantee that you would not be on call after hours some day when I needed help. My health, my  life, and my dignity are far too precious to me to allow them to be disregarded in this manner again. Todoe      my T, (the name of her office)     — "May fortune favor the foolish."                                    Captain James T. Kirk        About to attempt time travel to retrieve      2 humpback whales from the past to save the world.              ( "Voyage Home"  Star Trek movie.)                       O.W.L. Productions — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

Yah!!! What a wonderful, honest, detailed, letter of dignity and self respect. This doctor clearly needs some lessons in listening to hir patients and taking them seriously. I have given feedback to docs before who seemed totally *beyond* help, surgeons of the sort who were clearly mechanics with their perception of me as a mere machine. My complaints of this nature were taken seriously, and not only did *I* notice a difference, but other patients and *doctors* commented on their change as well. So congratulations.. with my heartfelt hope that thing well crafted letter will have a similarly successful effect! (me)

Got so tired of feeling angry at him, so I wrote and sent this letter today, with cc’s to the manager of the office where he works and my T.                                                     April 3, 1998 C Health Center I remain in a state of disbelief with regard to your treatment of me for my breathing difficulties. On January 12, 1998 you questioned me with regard to depression when I was there to see you about a breathing problem. I found that to be patronizing, discounting, and insulting to my intelligence.  In addition it was in direct conflict with my t’pist’s request.  In a telephone conversation she told you that both she and I would like you to not attempt to get involved with my emotional issues. That day you did not  sit down to talk to me, you did not listen to my breathing, you simply asked me about depression, gave me some Combivent which did nothing to help, and excused yourself. Having emotional problems does not mean that a person cannot also have physical problems.  Having emotional problems does not mean that a person is not intelligent. I am a CPA, I have a masters degree in Accounting, am presently working on a masters degree at U in Computer Science and Engineering.  I belong to Mensa – the high IQ club with an IQ  higher than what is necessary to be eligible for membership. The next day, January 13, I came in for a breathing treatment.  I had gotten an ok from the nurse I spoke with on the phone.  While I was waiting for the nurse to set up the nebulizer, you walked in and without a greeting listened to me breathe and told me "You’re not very bad," referring to my breathing. Well, as I told you then, every single time I had felt as I did that morning my breathing had done nothing but get worse and worse and worse.  I told you that I hated to wait until it got as bad as it had been the previous day when I was unable to even speak. You didn’t say much. The next day I called your office because I wanted another breathing treatment.  I told the nurse my peak flow was 400 and that every time I’d felt that badly my breathing got worse and worse. The message relayed from you by your nurse was that 400 is a fine peak flow. It might interest you to know that the pulmonologist I am seeing has given me instructions that should my peak flow drop to 400, I should start using the nebulizer which I have at home now every 4 hours. But you did not take my word that I knew what I was talking about with regard to my own health. Not only did you not take my word then, but by the time I was given an ok to come in my peak flow had dropped to 270.  Per my pulmonologist I should go to the ER if it drops to 300. When I did come in you had already left, and the nurse practitioner did take me seriously and gave me a breathing treatment, put me on prednisone, vanceril, serevent, phenylphen.LA, and arranged to have a nebulizer delivered to my home that night, and I was told not to take part in any activitie s at all until I saw the pulmonologist on January 19. I am outraged that in your failure to take me seriously you might have put my life in jeopardy.  I am outraged when I remember how grueling that week was, because you failed to take me seriously. As a result of this experience, I will no longer be seeing anybody at I am unwilling to subject myself to such treatment again.  While I could see someone else  for appointments, there is no way to guarantee that you would not be on call after hours some day when I needed help. My health, my  life, and my dignity are far too precious to me to allow them to be disregarded in this manner again. Todoe      my T, (the name of her office)     — Someonelse       " I am a poster girl with no poster    I am 32 flavors and then some…"                             Ani Difranco

Response:

good for you todoe! we sory they bein such asses to you,, and ya kno what, your letters getin me fired up to send one the insurance company ahtat is no longer gona cover my thpy visits, yeah its april 5th an my benefits are already exhausted anyways i hop things get better with the breathing problems an i be intersted to hear what if anything thy respond to that letter ok byby mary an inspace ppls – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Got so tired of feeling angry at him, so I wrote and sent this letter today, with cc’s to the manager of the office where he works and my T.                                                     April 3, 1998 C Health Center I remain in a state of disbelief with regard to your treatment of me for my breathing difficulties. Todoe      my T, (the name of her office) —

Response: