Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"paneon" (paneon@sdf_dot_lonestar.org) writes: >> > Seriously…I asked in my ad for someone in shape, curvy but shapely, >> > etc., and my photo shows Greco-Roman wrestler me…so I get this fat >> > girl writing me…I’m talking truck driver in drag, I’m talking Fred >> > Flintstone’s sister, I’m talking something out of Lord of the >> > Rings…but what do I say to her? >> > Should I just ignore?  I’m inclined to simply write "thanks for sending >> > me your photo" and leave it at that. >> > And before you feminazis, pussified "guys," faggots, and other p.c. >> > types kvetch about my tastes in women, let ask yourselves this: >> > What if a girl request no one over 35 and got 60 year olds e-mailing? >> > And don’t you have physical requirements of your own, too? >> > Please advise, as I really would like to let her down gently. >> Greco-Roman wrestler? >> Is that not when a guy forces another guy to the floor to sniff >> his sweaty privates, in a big embrace? > Sure is, but I believe there’s also a certain amount of pelvic grinding > involved. > I remember seeing highlights of the Greco-Roman wrestling on television back > at the time of the Sydney Olympics – with backing music from Barry White.

LOL:) > (Need I say more?)

:) Yes. Honest now: how long did it take you to switch to the Sydney Female Beach Volley Ball? As for Greco-Roman wrestling, it just occured to me that it has to be break-dancing’s ancestor: someone found no oponent cute enough for him, and decided to go solo:). —

Response:

RAS <rst…@rocketmail.com> wrote in news:pdKdnXCCkJpsLmffRVn-pg@rcn.net: > "Hi. I appreciate your interest, and your photo; however, as you can > see, I have the body of a Greco-Roman wrestler, and I certainly couldn’t > be interested in a woman less beautiful than myself. In the meantime, I > will continue to stroke off, while posing in front of my mirror, > fantasizing about wrestling with someone who looks as good as me…"

If I had a dime for every time I had to say that. — http://www.tubafrenzy.org/weblog/archives/timeMag.jpg

Response:

"NYC XYZ" <jack_foreig…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1123724331.475397.302960@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Seriously…I asked in my ad for someone in shape, curvy but shapely, > etc., and my photo shows Greco-Roman wrestler me…so I get this fat > girl writing me…I’m talking truck driver in drag, I’m talking Fred > Flintstone’s sister, I’m talking something out of Lord of the > Rings…but what do I say to her? > Should I just ignore?  I’m inclined to simply write "thanks for sending > me your photo" and leave it at that. > And before you feminazis, pussified "guys," faggots, and other p.c. > types kvetch about my tastes in women, let ask yourselves this: > What if a girl request no one over 35 and got 60 year olds e-mailing? > And don’t you have physical requirements of your own, too? > Please advise, as I really would like to let her down gently.

Apply the it’s-not-you-it’s-me tactic, preferably leaving her looks out of it entirely, e.g.  tell her that you couldn’t possibly pursue a relationship with her because her name just happens to be the same as your beloved granny who recently died in a horrible woodchipper accident and you just can’t bear to be reminded of it just now. disraeli

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -johnebravo836 wrote: > the Danimal wrote: > > johnebravo836 wrote: > >>the Danimal wrote: > >>[snip] > >>>Since men have experience trying to woo women in real life, most > >>>guys who aren’t incredibly stupid figure out pretty quickly which > >>>women are completely out of their league. Men might hit on women > >>>out of their league anyway, but they know their chances of success > >>>are remote. > >>>Women, on the other hand, almost never hit on men in real life. So > >>>they come to dating sites with almost no concept of how attractive > >>>they are to men in general. They assume that any man is > >>>just as likely as any other to find them attractive. Usually when > >>>a woman talks to a man in a courtship context, it’s because he > >>>approached her, which means he wants to have sex with her. Women > >>>therefore get the potentially mistaken idea that all men want to > >>>have sex with them. > >>You don’t seriously believe this, do you? > > Don’t take my word for it. Walk up to any woman and tell her > > she is beautiful. Not even the ugly women will argue with you. > Maybe I’m reacting largely to the way you’ve stated it, which seems to > me to be quite extreme. You said that you think most women have "almost > no concept of how attractive they are to men in general. They assume > that any man is just as likely as any other to find them attractive" and > you indicated the reason for that is because "Women . . . almost never > hit on men in real life." > This seems wildly implausible to me. Women are quite aware of how often > they get hit on, and the kinds of guys that do hit on them when it > happens; they are generally aware of how often other women get hit on, > and the kinds of guys that hit on them; they are well aware of what > kinds of guys they date, and they see the guys other women date. It > ain’t rocket science. There are ways to find this kind of thing out > other than through feedback obtained when actively attempting to hit on > the opposite sex, right?

You seem to assume women are objective enough to acknowledge facts and draw logical conclusions from them, no matter how personally threatening or unpleasant such a conclusion may be. But that’s not how most women (or men, for that matter) think. Most women think primarily with their emotional brains. For an example of how the emotional brain works, talk to a fat person about why she is fat. Studies have shown that fat people tend to under-report their actual eating, and the fatter they are, the greater the under-reporting. It’s possible they actually believe they eat less than they really eat (that is, some of them might pass a lie-detector test when they under-report their eating). Read the NAAFA propaganda that dances all around the issue and basically denies that people are fat because they eat too much. Something as simple as "Eat too much, get fat" is seemingly impossible for people to grasp just as soon as they are emotionally threatened by the consequences. Or look around at all the gaswasting terrorist supporters who drive around with stickers on their SUVs that say "Support Our Troops." Here they are driving up petroleum prices and pumping more money into fundamentalist Islamic radicals than they know what to do with, and yet the average gaswaster is so stupid that he or she feels it is legitimate to put a "Support Our Troops" on a machine that is KILLING our troops. In other words, it’s hard to overestimate human stupidity. > > Or tell a woman she is ugly, and see if she argues with you. > Arguing with you and believing that you are being sincere are two very > differnet things. Would you agree that there are quite a few women with > serious self-esteem issues?

Sure, but look at what you wrote: SELF esteem. They aren’t worried about what men think of them; they are worried about what they think of themselves. That in itself is a declaration of whose feelings they need to worry about. In other words, it’s OK for a woman to have a self-esteem issue, but it’s not OK for me to have an issue with my esteem of her. If you go around telling people you dumped your girlfriend because she has a little too much cellulite, what will people think of you? Is it smart for you to go around telling people what you think about cellulite on women, despite what you think "everybody knows" about what you think? When a woman gets cosmetic surgery, how does she justify it? The marketing and the rhetoric is always about helping a woman to feel better about herself. It’s about improving her SELF image. As if she’s simply trying to satisfy a narcissistic urge. It’s never about increasing a woman’s ability to give men boners. You and I know that’s what it’s really all about, ultimately, but that’s not what a woman’s emotional brain tells her. It’s also not what we can freely admit without risking sanction. If you go around telling people that what you primarily value about women is how they look, people will tend to associate that idea with you in particular, as if most other men do not think the same way. The reason people are not perfectly honest and forthcoming about everything they feel is to allow others to form whatever impression about them they find most comforting. > Don’t you think they immediately discount > such things when they hear them, whether it is sincere or not?

I think women are aware of their flaws and feel insecure about them while simultaneously expecting that their flaws should not matter to men. For example, if you are in a relationship with a woman, and you do something she doesn’t like, does she say, "Well, I guess I deserved that because I have cellulite." Most women don’t think that way. They think they deserve to be treated the way a perfect woman deserves to be treated. A woman might be aware that she has cellulite, but she doesn’t think her cellulite should have any consequences apart from possibly being bothersome to her when she thinks about it. > > Or act as if you want to have sex with a woman, and see if she > > is skeptical. See if she entertains any doubt whatsoever that > > a man like you could really want to have sex with her. > Surely, you’ve heard the old expression "he’d fuck anything that moves". > Certainly, you’ve *known* guys like that or had friends like that — > they’re not exactly in short supply. This is a very, very well-known > phenomenon, especially with younger guys. Everybody knows that a sizable > number of guys aren’t picky in the least.

Yes, but not many women categorize themselves as "anything that moves." Every woman I know is more egotistical than that. No matter what she looks like, she feels she has special qualities that make her as deserving of royal treatment. > This is also not very closely > correlated with the guy being ugly or desperate. Guys who ain’t picky > come in all shapes, sizes, and kinds, wouldn’t you say?

I would say that where I live, judging from who I see out walking with whom, it would seem a disproportionate number of black guys aren’t picky in the least. Sometimes it’s rather jarring to see a well-built athletic-specimen-type black guy out walking with some waddling black or white porkbeast chick. I can’t recall ever seeing a well-built athletic-specimen-type white guy out walking with some waddling porkbeast chick. And I think I would remember. > That being the > case, why would she be particularly skeptical about whether you want to > fuck her, since you took the trouble to suggest it? It’s not a marriage > proposal, just a proposition.

"That being the case" is not why she believes that. What woman ever thinks to herself, "Why would a man this objectively desirable want to have sex with me?" A woman never feels unworthy of attention from any man. If you try to tell women about the concept of Sexual Market Value, many will disagree that there could be such a thing, or that it could be relevant to them personally. Consider the language people use to dodge the facts. It’s always "I’m having trouble meeting people" rather than "I’m having trouble attracting people." > > That is, see if any woman really believes you are unattainable. > Would you agree that for nearly all women, there will be a rather > sizable difference in their minds between "he wants to fuck me" and > "he’s attainable"? The difference is connected to the fact that the > average woman is probably going to want to "attain" more from the guy > than simply getting fucked. I think this is so completely obvious that > it’s practically self-evident.

Sure, but it seems a typical woman thinks if a man does not want to commit himself to her and only her, it’s because something is wrong with him rather than because something is wrong with her. He is "immature" or "commitment-phobic" or "shallow" or "looks- obsessed" or defective in some other way. This is just how self-bias works. Whenever two people disagree, each thinks the other person has the problem. See how people flame each other on Usenet. Nobody writes about himself the way he writes about the opponent. The word choices are different. The spin is different. > > Or see how all the fat ugly women put on makeup, try to buy > > fashionable clothes, get their hair styled, etc., as if an > > ugly woman can be stylish. > > When a woman tries to be stylish, what is she saying by her > > actions? > I think you’re missing the extent to which many women dress with an eye > towards how they’ll be perceived by other women, rather than how they’ll > be perceived by men.

It could also seem that men want to have sex with women so they can brag about it to other men. But the competition for status among one’s sex peers has a deeper purpose, one not necessarily apparent to the emotional brain. Evolution works on a need-to-know basis. Organisms are generally not aware of things they don’t need to know. Humans are kind of an exception. We are, for instance, probably the only animal … read more »

Response:

johnebravo836 wrote:

[snip] Sorry; the following part was intended to be a response to your remark "Don’t take my word for it. Walk up to any woman and tell her she is beautiful. Not even the ugly women will argue with you.", not to your remark about telling her she is ugly. My mistake . . . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Arguing with you and believing that you are being sincere are two very > differnet things. Would you agree that there are quite a few women with > serious self-esteem issues? Don’t you think they immediately discount > such things when they hear them, whether it is sincere or not?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Seriously…I asked in my ad for someone in shape, curvy but shapely, > > etc., and my photo shows Greco-Roman wrestler me…so I get this fat > > girl writing me…I’m talking truck driver in drag, I’m talking Fred > > Flintstone’s sister, I’m talking something out of Lord of the > > Rings…but what do I say to her? > > Should I just ignore?  I’m inclined to simply write "thanks for sending > > me your photo" and leave it at that. > > And before you feminazis, pussified "guys," faggots, and other p.c. > > types kvetch about my tastes in women, let ask yourselves this: > > What if a girl request no one over 35 and got 60 year olds e-mailing? > > And don’t you have physical requirements of your own, too? > > Please advise, as I really would like to let her down gently. > Greco-Roman wrestler? > Is that not when a guy forces another guy to the floor to sniff > his sweaty privates, in a big embrace?

Sure is, but I believe there’s also a certain amount of pelvic grinding involved. I remember seeing highlights of the Greco-Roman wrestling on television back at the time of the Sydney Olympics – with backing music from Barry White. (Need I say more?)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -the Danimal wrote: > johnebravo836 wrote: >>the Danimal wrote: >>[snip] >>>Since men have experience trying to woo women in real life, most >>>guys who aren’t incredibly stupid figure out pretty quickly which >>>women are completely out of their league. Men might hit on women >>>out of their league anyway, but they know their chances of success >>>are remote. >>>Women, on the other hand, almost never hit on men in real life. So >>>they come to dating sites with almost no concept of how attractive >>>they are to men in general. They assume that any man is >>>just as likely as any other to find them attractive. Usually when >>>a woman talks to a man in a courtship context, it’s because he >>>approached her, which means he wants to have sex with her. Women >>>therefore get the potentially mistaken idea that all men want to >>>have sex with them. >>You don’t seriously believe this, do you? > Don’t take my word for it. Walk up to any woman and tell her > she is beautiful. Not even the ugly women will argue with you.

Maybe I’m reacting largely to the way you’ve stated it, which seems to me to be quite extreme. You said that you think most women have "almost no concept of how attractive they are to men in general. They assume that any man is just as likely as any other to find them attractive" and you indicated the reason for that is because "Women . . . almost never hit on men in real life." This seems wildly implausible to me. Women are quite aware of how often they get hit on, and the kinds of guys that do hit on them when it happens; they are generally aware of how often other women get hit on, and the kinds of guys that hit on them; they are well aware of what kinds of guys they date, and they see the guys other women date. It ain’t rocket science. There are ways to find this kind of thing out other than through feedback obtained when actively attempting to hit on the opposite sex, right? > Or tell a woman she is ugly, and see if she argues with you.

Arguing with you and believing that you are being sincere are two very differnet things. Would you agree that there are quite a few women with serious self-esteem issues? Don’t you think they immediately discount such things when they hear them, whether it is sincere or not? > Or act as if you want to have sex with a woman, and see if she > is skeptical. See if she entertains any doubt whatsoever that > a man like you could really want to have sex with her.

Surely, you’ve heard the old expression "he’d fuck anything that moves". Certainly, you’ve *known* guys like that or had friends like that — they’re not exactly in short supply. This is a very, very well-known phenomenon, especially with younger guys. Everybody knows that a sizable number of guys aren’t picky in the least. This is also not very closely correlated with the guy being ugly or desperate. Guys who ain’t picky come in all shapes, sizes, and kinds, wouldn’t you say? That being the case, why would she be particularly skeptical about whether you want to fuck her, since you took the trouble to suggest it? It’s not a marriage proposal, just a proposition. > That is, see if any woman really believes you are unattainable.

Would you agree that for nearly all women, there will be a rather sizable difference in their minds between "he wants to fuck me" and "he’s attainable"? The difference is connected to the fact that the average woman is probably going to want to "attain" more from the guy than simply getting fucked. I think this is so completely obvious that it’s practically self-evident. > Or see how all the fat ugly women put on makeup, try to buy > fashionable clothes, get their hair styled, etc., as if an > ugly woman can be stylish. > When a woman tries to be stylish, what is she saying by her > actions?

I think you’re missing the extent to which many women dress with an eye towards how they’ll be perceived by other women, rather than how they’ll be perceived by men. It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with trying to be sexy, frankly. There is also a very big difference between trying to look stylish and trying to look sexy. Surely you know this. [snip] > Look at the way fat girls call themselves BBWs: Big Beautiful > Women. Calling oneself "beautiful" is equivalent to declaring > oneself to be sexually desirable, i.e. asserting that large > numbers of people want to have sex with the asserter. It’s a > boast about what lots of other people want to do.

Not at all. It’s trying to put the best face on the cards you’ve been dealt (or that you’ve left yourself with, to the extent that you have control over your weight). They’re simply making their weight known up front, so any guy who starts talking to them knows what to expect, and then they don’t have to repeatedly be faced with guys who instantly lose all interest when they find out what she looks like. They do this because they know from past experience that lots and lots of guys will immediately run when they only find out about the weight later on. > How many women have you overheard saying, "That man finds me > sexually worthless"? Typically a woman rationalizes away a man’s > lack of interest by saying he is commitment-phobic, or he is > a man who "cannot love," or he’s gay, or he "has issues," etc. > How many women state the obvious: "I’m just not attractive to > most men"?

You think that because they don’t openly state it all the time that they’re not well aware of it?

Response:

Ray Gordon wrote: > Tell her you’ll fuck her when Britney Spears fucks you.

What IS it with you whiteboys and skinny women???  I don’t want fat, but neither do I want anorexic!

Response:

If you don’t want to persue a relationship, do not reply to her in any way.  That’s how it’s done most of the time.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NYC XYZ wrote: > RAS wrote: >>"Hi. I appreciate your interest, and your photo; however, as you can >>see, I have the body of a Greco-Roman wrestler, and I certainly couldn’t >>be interested in a woman less beautiful than myself. In the meantime, I >>will continue to stroke off, while posing in front of my mirror, >>fantasizing about wrestling with someone who looks as good as me…" >>:D ! >>RAS > Gee, Alan Alda must be looking over his shoulder.

He was one of my best students. > You get the Nice-Beta-Omega-Guy Award of the Golden Pussy!

Sorry, strictly Alpha here. You can keep your wrestling trophys. RAS

Response:

NYC XYZ wrote: > Seriously…I asked in my ad for someone in shape, curvy but shapely, > etc., and my photo shows Greco-Roman wrestler me…so I get this fat > girl writing me…I’m talking truck driver in drag, I’m talking Fred > Flintstone’s sister, I’m talking something out of Lord of the > Rings…but what do I say to her?

There are lots of things you could say to her. Since you don’t know anything about her, you have no way of knowing whether one thing would be better than some other thing. You also didn’t say whether you feel it’s important to be honest. If you are willing to lie, that opens up all sorts of options. For example, you could trot out the old standby "I’m seeing someone." Tell her you met someone already from your ad and things have gone so well you’re already exclusive. Of course if you keep your ad up for another six months, that might look suspicious. In any case, putting out personal ads virtually guarantees that if you get any responses, most of them will be from women you would never have considered hitting on in real life. Obviously any woman who is attractive is already getting hit on by tons of guys in real life, so why would she be reading personal ads? There might be some, but the percentage of attractive women among personal ad respondents is likely to be lower than the already low percentage of attractive women in real life. So you should already have formulated your plan for dealing with these women. If you are using a quality dating site or publication, it should have articles telling you how to reject people. One way is to state in your ad something about your specific requirements for a woman to be physically attractive. If you want a certain height/weight combination, you might as well list it. Otherwise you’ll just have to reject a bunch of women who don’t fit it. > Should I just ignore?  I’m inclined to simply write "thanks for sending > me your photo" and leave it at that.

If you respond to women’s ads, a large percentage of them will probably not reply to you. That’s probably kind of the standard procedure. > And before you feminazis, pussified "guys," faggots, and other p.c. > types kvetch about my tastes in women, let ask yourselves this:

Do you want other people to approve of your tastes, and if so, why? No matter what you do, you’re going to piss off someone. Therefore, since pissing someone off is inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it. If someone should question your requirements for a partner, think of someone you don’t want to have sex with, and ask your critic if he or she wants to have sex with that person. There are two possibilities, both of which let you win: 1. If the critic says yes, then it’s in your critic’s interest for you NOT to be attracted to that person, because if you were, you would be competing for that person. Introduce your critic to your rejectee, and get them both out of your hair. 2. If the critic says no, then the critic is telling you to be sexually attracted to someone the critic does not find sexually attractive, making your critic a hypocrite. > What if a girl request no one over 35 and got 60 year olds e-mailing?

Do you mean 60 year olds who get taken for 60 year olds, as most do, or 60 year olds who get taken for 35 year olds? Not that there are many of the latter. Most people look their age, which is why we have a concept of what an age looks like. But if someone frequently gets mistaken for being younger, in good light, in face to face meetings, then maybe that’s what the stated age requirement is asking for. After all, nobody really knows how old you are unless they do some serious investigating. All they really know is how old you seem, and that’s what either turns them on or turns them off. Age is different than height and weight, two physical traits that never get mistaken by much. A small percentage of people look significantly older or younger than they are, whereas someone who weighs, say, 300 pounds never gets mistaken for a small person. > And don’t you have physical requirements of your own, too?

With women, the nonnegotiable physical requirement is height. Almost every heterosexual woman has some minimum height requirement for a man, below which she finds almost no men sexually attractive. As in, she doesn’t feel urges to do them. When women say a man’s "looks" aren’t that important to them, that they aren’t obsessed with a partner’s "looks" to the extent that men are, they conveniently ignore their nonnegotiable height requirement. Height is a component of "looks" because it is a purely physical trait that is immediately visually perceived. > Please advise, as I really would like to let her down gently.

You don’t know what she considers being let down gently. The people you are asking for advice don’t know, either. You could write back and ask her how she prefers to be rejected. Or you could ask the fat women you know how they prefer to be rejected. Would they prefer to be ignored, or lied to, or told the brutal complete truth? Maybe she wouldn’t mind rejection if you accompanied your blow-off note with a case of chocolate doughnuts. Probably almost every fat person appreciates a gift of tasty food. Often, fat people were raised in families in which family members expressed their love by (over)feeding each other. So on top of being gluttons because they have excessive appetites, they might stuff their faces because it recalls those precious memories of Mom comforting them with food. If this fat woman had to choose between a date with you and a case of doughnuts, she’d probably go with the doughnuts anyway. That was basically the decision she made by choosing to be fat. — the Danimal

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -johnebravo836 wrote: > the Danimal wrote: > [snip] > > Since men have experience trying to woo women in real life, most > > guys who aren’t incredibly stupid figure out pretty quickly which > > women are completely out of their league. Men might hit on women > > out of their league anyway, but they know their chances of success > > are remote. > > Women, on the other hand, almost never hit on men in real life. So > > they come to dating sites with almost no concept of how attractive > > they are to men in general. They assume that any man is > > just as likely as any other to find them attractive. Usually when > > a woman talks to a man in a courtship context, it’s because he > > approached her, which means he wants to have sex with her. Women > > therefore get the potentially mistaken idea that all men want to > > have sex with them. > You don’t seriously believe this, do you?

Don’t take my word for it. Walk up to any woman and tell her she is beautiful. Not even the ugly women will argue with you. Or tell a woman she is ugly, and see if she argues with you. Or act as if you want to have sex with a woman, and see if she is skeptical. See if she entertains any doubt whatsoever that a man like you could really want to have sex with her. That is, see if any woman really believes you are unattainable. Or see how all the fat ugly women put on makeup, try to buy fashionable clothes, get their hair styled, etc., as if an ugly woman can be stylish. When a woman tries to be stylish, what is she saying by her actions? She is saying "I am sexually desirable to men, and I want to call attention to that by presenting my sexual desirability in the most favorable light." She is not saying that explicitly, of course. A woman must always maintain plausible deniability so she can screen out the losers. When an attractive woman dolls herself up, she becomes even more attractive. Makeup on a Ms. America contestant is like putting the final touch on a masterpiece. She presents herself to the world as if she is sexually desirable to the majority of men. Otherwise, her efforts to make those final touches would be like the fat woman’s parody, like trying to make a bad singer sound good. Consider if the genders were reversed, and some fat bald old guy prances around in a Speedo. Only a very few guys can make the Speedo thing work, and most guys know about where they stand on this. But virtually ALL women think there is some point to all of them investing in lingerie. Ugly women don’t get the same brutally honest feedback that undesirable men get, that it’s NOT WORKING. Look at the way fat girls call themselves BBWs: Big Beautiful Women. Calling oneself "beautiful" is equivalent to declaring oneself to be sexually desirable, i.e. asserting that large numbers of people want to have sex with the asserter. It’s a boast about what lots of other people want to do. How many women have you overheard saying, "That man finds me sexually worthless"? Typically a woman rationalizes away a man’s lack of interest by saying he is commitment-phobic, or he is a man who "cannot love," or he’s gay, or he "has issues," etc. How many women state the obvious: "I’m just not attractive to most men"? The weird thing is that lots of women are well aware that they have physical flaws; a few women might even understand that they have personality flaws. But few women seem able to understand what a given level of flawed-ness translates into. That book "He’s Just Not That Into You" was like a great intellectual leap for women, as if many women did not even have the concept that a man might not want to have sex with them (or keep having sex with them). Women have been sold the huge lie that every woman is equally entitled to the same storybook relationship with her dream man. And women generally believe it because they don’t hit on guys and get rejected hundreds of times. Do you think anybody needs to write a book "Dude: Chicks Don’t Dig You"? "Dudes" already know they don’t get much love from most chicks. — the Danimal

Response:

the Danimal wrote:

[snip] > Since men have experience trying to woo women in real life, most > guys who aren’t incredibly stupid figure out pretty quickly which > women are completely out of their league. Men might hit on women > out of their league anyway, but they know their chances of success > are remote. > Women, on the other hand, almost never hit on men in real life. So > they come to dating sites with almost no concept of how attractive > they are to men in general. They assume that any man is > just as likely as any other to find them attractive. Usually when > a woman talks to a man in a courtship context, it’s because he > approached her, which means he wants to have sex with her. Women > therefore get the potentially mistaken idea that all men want to > have sex with them.

You don’t seriously believe this, do you?

Response:

RAS wrote: > He was one of my best students. > Sorry, strictly Alpha here. You can keep your wrestling trophys. > RAS

What kind of "alpha" male takes a Golden Pussy award as a wrestling trophy? Don’t believe everything your mom told you.

Response:

the Danimal wrote: > <SNIP>

OMG you’re too much!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!! Actually, just so you know, my ex was fat — but she became fat after I fell in love with her, and so I didn’t mind. This is, you may recall, the ex who dumped me for a guy who dumped her with chlamydia…LOL, life is funny.

Response:

MaggieSheri…@aol.com wrote: > NYC XYZ wrote: > > Please advise, as I really would like to let her down gently. > I think it’s admirable that you want to let her down gently.  Perhaps > you can think of a time that someone let you down gently?

That might work, or it might not. One’s own emotions are an unreliable guide to the emotions of a stranger. Consider how difficult it would be to buy a stranger a gift that the stranger would *REALLY* appreciate. Something you would like might not be that person’s cup of tea. The only way to buy someone an appropriate gift is to know quite a bit about that person. Knowing the "best" way to let a person down probably requires similarly detailed knowledge. My favorite way to be "let down" is to have the object of my futile interest introduce me to another equally interesting or more interesting woman who welcomes my interest. But from what I understand, a lot of people would be offended by such a gesture. Granted, there are a few general rules. I would imagine few people want to be rejected with commentary like, "My god, you really look like shit." Even when they do look like shit. A person who looks like shit will suffer the consequences every day, and hardly needs to be reminded again of it. The problem with the whole sex/romance thing is that most men are most strongly attracted to the same minority of young women who look good (and most men define "look good" similarly); and similarly most women are most strongly attracted to the same minority of men (accounting for factors women like such as looks, height, wealth, status, personality, etc.). Since men have experience trying to woo women in real life, most guys who aren’t incredibly stupid figure out pretty quickly which women are completely out of their league. Men might hit on women out of their league anyway, but they know their chances of success are remote. Women, on the other hand, almost never hit on men in real life. So they come to dating sites with almost no concept of how attractive they are to men in general. They assume that any man is just as likely as any other to find them attractive. Usually when a woman talks to a man in a courtship context, it’s because he approached her, which means he wants to have sex with her. Women therefore get the potentially mistaken idea that all men want to have sex with them. If a woman is highly attractive, then it is true that a solid majority of men DO want to have sex with her. But the less attractive a woman is, the larger her error if she generalizes from the subset of men who have hit on her to the set of all men. In other human activities in which participants can be ranked, it’s important to match participants up by their rank. For example, in sports leagues, for best results you want to group players by ability. People who are really good at a sport cannot enjoy playing with/against people who suck at it. There has to be some objective system for rating ability, and players have to know where they and all the other players stand. While it’s probably impractical to arrange, because most people are far too egotistical to be objective about their own attractiveness level, a dating service would be *MOST* effective if it could objectively rank its members by attractiveness. Introducing comparably attractive people would maximize their chances of finding mutual attraction. Each member could specify the upper and lower attractiveness ranking they will accept in a partner (the lower number is the only one that matters, however, since most people probably have no upper bound on the attractiveness of a partner they will accept, just as no worker has an upper bound on the salary he will accept). Then one’s own ranking would immediately divide all the prospects into two groups: those who might find one attractive, and those who will never. Obviously such a system would, like real life, favor the attractive. Men and women who are in the top 10% of attractiveness for their respective genders will have a great time meeting each other. Within their elite group, there will be many pairings that produce immediate mutual attraction. Imagine a Hollywood party in which the guests are all pre-selected for being highly attractive. Most of them will go home happy. But it’s difficult to get those people to pay money for introductions, because in real life they have no problems meeting people. People who are attractive and have great personalities easily make friends, build up a thriving social circle, get invited to the best activities and parties, and so on. So as you can see, the concept of a dating service that ranks people by attractiveness is pretty much a nonstarter. In real life, you can tell within a few minutes (or within a few seconds) of meeting someone, about how attractive that person is. If a dating service provided the same quality of information you get about people in real life, it couldn’t give unattractive people false hope and get them to keep paying money for a long time. That’s the problem with every dating service: it has an economic incentive NOT to screen out the undesirables. In fact the less attractive a person is, the better he or she is for the dating service, because he or she stays active longer and pays more money. In contrast, the few attractive people who sign up quickly pair off and leave, and aren’t good for much besides posing for endorsement advertisements. > Maybe you could say something like I’ve enjoyed chatting with you and > am flattered by your interest in me, but I just don’t think we would be > compatible (or something equaly vague but  polite).  I wish you the > very best in your search.

I thought of an idea. Find a homeless, indebted, balding, obese, toothless midget with leprosy and a really ugly face, and have him respond to the fat woman’s ad with a letter and photo, and an invitation to take him out on a date (she will have to pick him up and pay for the date, of course, as he has no resources of his own). After she rejects him, analyze the way she rejected him. Did she say "You’ve got to be kidding!" or did she let him down gently, claim to be flattered by his interest, wish him the best of luck in his search? Whatever she said to him, Mr. XYZ can then say to her. Turnabout being fair play and all of that. > I think people realize that there won’t always be mutual interest.

Then why don’t people tell you how to reject them, along with their invitation? For example, something along the lines of: "While I have a healthy self-esteem, I realize different people have different tastes, so there is a chance you will not find me interesting enough to date. If that is the case, I know it may be uncomfortable for you to tell me that. So, if necessary, here is how I like to be rejected:" and then spell it out. Take all the guesswork out of it for all those stunningly attractive but clueless spandex-clad wrestlers who have no idea how to reject all the horny fat chicks they excite. — the Danimal

Response:

"NYC XYZ" (jack_foreig…@yahoo.com) writes: > Ray Gordon wrote: >> Tell her you’ll fuck her when Britney Spears fucks you. > What IS it with you whiteboys and skinny women???  I don’t want fat, > but neither do I want anorexic!

Why don’t you specify the exact number of pounds and ounces to your fictive babe in your ad? —

Response:

poet (p…@asarian-host.net) writes: > X-No-Archive: yes > In article ddf8ah$no…@theodyn.ncf.ca, Eleonore Beaudoin at > bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA wrote on 8/11/05 5:12: >> Why don’t you specify the exact number of pounds and ounces to your >> fictive babe in your ad? > not to mention hair colour, eye colour, complexion, size of nose and > forehead, hairstyle, bra, dress, and pants size, shoe size, panties size, > thigh girth, and so forth.

and last but not least, what make and serial number on what color of automatic pump. > — > For more information about this posting service, contact: > h…@asarian-host.net — for all info about our server. > If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: > https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

–

Response:

poet (p…@asarian-host.net) writes: > X-No-Archive: yes > In article ddecki$9h…@theodyn.ncf.ca, Eleonore Beaudoin at > bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA wrote on 8/10/05 21:20: >> Greco-Roman wrestler? Is that not when a guy forces another guy to the >> floor to sniff his sweaty privates, in a big embrace? > sounds like stranger dogs greeting one another.

Or a Feebreeze moment LOL:) > — > For more information about this posting service, contact: > h…@asarian-host.net — for all info about our server. > If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: > https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

–

Response:

RAS wrote: > "Hi. I appreciate your interest, and your photo; however, as you can > see, I have the body of a Greco-Roman wrestler, and I certainly couldn’t > be interested in a woman less beautiful than myself. In the meantime, I > will continue to stroke off, while posing in front of my mirror, > fantasizing about wrestling with someone who looks as good as me…" > ! > RAS

Gee, Alan Alda must be looking over his shoulder. You get the Nice-Beta-Omega-Guy Award of the Golden Pussy!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"NYC XYZ" (jack_foreig…@yahoo.com) writes: > Seriously…I asked in my ad for someone in shape, curvy but shapely, > etc., and my photo shows Greco-Roman wrestler me…so I get this fat > girl writing me…I’m talking truck driver in drag, I’m talking Fred > Flintstone’s sister, I’m talking something out of Lord of the > Rings…but what do I say to her? > Should I just ignore?  I’m inclined to simply write "thanks for sending > me your photo" and leave it at that. > And before you feminazis, pussified "guys," faggots, and other p.c. > types kvetch about my tastes in women, let ask yourselves this: > What if a girl request no one over 35 and got 60 year olds e-mailing? > And don’t you have physical requirements of your own, too? > Please advise, as I really would like to let her down gently.

Greco-Roman wrestler? Is that not when a guy forces another guy to the floor to sniff his sweaty privates, in a big embrace? —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RAS (rst…@rocketmail.com) writes: > NYC XYZ wrote: >> Seriously…I asked in my ad for someone in shape, curvy but shapely, >> etc., and my photo shows Greco-Roman wrestler me…so I get this fat >> girl writing me…I’m talking truck driver in drag, I’m talking Fred >> Flintstone’s sister, I’m talking something out of Lord of the >> Rings…but what do I say to her? >> Should I just ignore?  I’m inclined to simply write "thanks for sending >> me your photo" and leave it at that. >> And before you feminazis, pussified "guys," faggots, and other p.c. >> types kvetch about my tastes in women, let ask yourselves this: >> What if a girl request no one over 35 and got 60 year olds e-mailing? >> And don’t you have physical requirements of your own, too? >> Please advise, as I really would like to let her down gently. > "Hi. I appreciate your interest, and your photo; however, as you can > see, I have the body of a Greco-Roman wrestler, and I certainly couldn’t > be interested in a woman less beautiful than myself. In the meantime, I > will continue to stroke off, while posing in front of my mirror, > fantasizing about wrestling with someone who looks as good as me…" > ! > RAS

BRAVO!:) You even made him sound honest!;-) —

Response:

Tell her you’ll fuck her when Britney Spears fucks you. "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreig…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1123724331.475397.302960@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Seriously…I asked in my ad for someone in shape, curvy but shapely, > etc., and my photo shows Greco-Roman wrestler me…so I get this fat > girl writing me…I’m talking truck driver in drag, I’m talking Fred > Flintstone’s sister, I’m talking something out of Lord of the > Rings…but what do I say to her? > Should I just ignore?  I’m inclined to simply write "thanks for sending > me your photo" and leave it at that. > And before you feminazis, pussified "guys," faggots, and other p.c. > types kvetch about my tastes in women, let ask yourselves this: > What if a girl request no one over 35 and got 60 year olds e-mailing? > And don’t you have physical requirements of your own, too? > Please advise, as I really would like to let her down gently.

Response:

Seriously…I asked in my ad for someone in shape, curvy but shapely, etc., and my photo shows Greco-Roman wrestler me…so I get this fat girl writing me…I’m talking truck driver in drag, I’m talking Fred Flintstone’s sister, I’m talking something out of Lord of the Rings…but what do I say to her? Should I just ignore?  I’m inclined to simply write "thanks for sending me your photo" and leave it at that. And before you feminazis, pussified "guys," faggots, and other p.c. types kvetch about my tastes in women, let ask yourselves this: What if a girl request no one over 35 and got 60 year olds e-mailing? And don’t you have physical requirements of your own, too? Please advise, as I really would like to let her down gently.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NYC XYZ wrote: > Seriously…I asked in my ad for someone in shape, curvy but shapely, > etc., and my photo shows Greco-Roman wrestler me…so I get this fat > girl writing me…I’m talking truck driver in drag, I’m talking Fred > Flintstone’s sister, I’m talking something out of Lord of the > Rings…but what do I say to her? > Should I just ignore?  I’m inclined to simply write "thanks for sending > me your photo" and leave it at that. > And before you feminazis, pussified "guys," faggots, and other p.c. > types kvetch about my tastes in women, let ask yourselves this: > What if a girl request no one over 35 and got 60 year olds e-mailing? > And don’t you have physical requirements of your own, too? > Please advise, as I really would like to let her down gently.

"Hi. I appreciate your interest, and your photo; however, as you can see, I have the body of a Greco-Roman wrestler, and I certainly couldn’t be interested in a woman less beautiful than myself. In the meantime, I will continue to stroke off, while posing in front of my mirror, fantasizing about wrestling with someone who looks as good as me…" ! RAS

Response:

Question:

IN a democracy, the voters eventually vote themselves all the money. In this Case, Feminist have voted all the money to them. That is why the founders didn’t implement a democracy in the U.S.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is a Riddle: K…in three sentences, tie this in with divorce.

Response:

It is a Riddle: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – K…in three sentences, tie this in with divorce.

Response:

Riddle: ——- 102 people, sitting on an island. They make a democratic government and want to use a money system. 2 people open up banks, and are given the authority to extend loans to all individuals, do the accounting, and lend the government extra funds beyond tax income. – If they set any interest rate on the loans, how can all loans be repaid ? – If they use any collateral for the loans, what will they come to own for   which they have not worked ? – If they can print money AND draw interest, is the accounting work they do   in relation to the wealth they will create in proffits ? – If the government bails them out of very large bad loans with taxes, to   keep the money-system from collapsing, what check do they have on their   behaviour ? Wouldn’t this island ultimately come under some kind of the control of the two bankers, especially if the bankers go out and buy the large and popular media outlets, or if they control them by means of loans ? This island is, however, our Earth. Nations have vast sums of money to be paying off into the private banks who perchase large amounts of "government bonds" ("i owe you + interest" certificates), thus lending the government money through this means. Tax-revenues must ultimately be directed towards banks’ to pay off the loans and the interest-proffits. Is the proffit gained on a 1 billion dollar loan at 10% interest, in relation to the book keeping needed to write down the loan and the payments on it every month ? Can you solve the riddle ? One solution would be, and has always been claimed to be: .tnemnrevog citarcomed eht fo sdnah eht ni rewop noitaerc yenom eht tuP

Response:

Question:

    1.  I can’t answer your question but I can tell you what I did. I am brewing with two five gallon Rubbermaid coolers. I have pro-mash but you could do this with a spread sheet if you had a formula. I made no attempt to figure out thermal mass since I knew that those coolers are pretty efficient.  Yesterday I mashed in at 154f which was the temp. I was looking for. I had heated the strike water to 170f and I had measured the water into the tun to be a grain to water ratio of 1.1 qts to 1 lb of grain. I put all the information into the formula and looked to see what promash wanted me to do to get the result I got.  I then fiddled with the value on the thermal mass window to replicate the result that I got.  I came up with .050 – .070.  Pro mash says a good default value is .300.  I have heard those coolers are pretty tight.  2.   Now that said, I am now connected to some other brewers and I am watching them mash.  What I am seeing is dead reckoning.  Big Boss heats up some water usually to 168 or 170 172f and starts mixing grain with water until it "looks right" He doesn’t measure much.   Big Boss takes temp of mash and almost always adds further quantity of hot water.  This hot water has been sitting under the heat while the other mashing has been going on and is now hotter than the original strike temp.  Big Boss may add two or three cups at a time.     Also, it has been my experience that in my system the mash is actually a bit warmer five or six minutes later than it seems at the time you mix it, so I close it up for a few and look again at the temp.     Anyway, that’s what I have seen.  Anyway, I am learning that hitting your temp. is perhaps not as difficult or precise as it might seem when first I tried it.  I have always come out low except once.  I keep a frozen plastic pop bottle handy for cooling the mash without adding water. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

Response:

Heat about the same volume of water that the mash tun is expected to hold and record its temperature.  Move it to the mash tun in a manner that is similar to how you intend to strike and record its temperature.  The difference between the two temperatures and times the weight of water is its thermal mass IIRC. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

Response:

Dan, What units are you using?  Gallons, Quarts, pints, metric I am working hypotheticals with english units and I am getting huge numbers. Could you give an example?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heat about the same volume of water that the mash tun is expected to hold and record its temperature.  Move it to the mash tun in a manner that is similar to how you intend to strike and record its temperature.  The difference between the two temperatures and times the weight of water is its thermal mass IIRC. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

Response:

It has been a while since I screwed with this stuff.  Usually thermal mass is expressed in pounds IIRC.  However in brewing, gallons of water is very handy.  I recall calculating that my five gallon cooler had a thermal mass of about 0.15 gallons or 1.25 pounds.  Malt has a specific heat of 0.4 and hence a thermal mass of the same if I understand things. A pound of malt has the thermal mass of 1/21 gallons of water. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan, What units are you using?  Gallons, Quarts, pints, metric I am working hypotheticals with english units and I am getting huge numbers. Could you give an example? Heat about the same volume of water that the mash tun is expected to hold and record its temperature.  Move it to the mash tun in a manner that is similar to how you intend to strike and record its temperature.  The difference between the two temperatures and times the weight of water is its thermal mass IIRC. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

Response:

What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

I just happened to be trying to calculate that by experimentation tonight. Heated water to 160F, Dumped in my room temp (80F) 48qt rubbermaid rectangular cooler. at 5min, cracked the lid and stuck in a thermometer. 140F at 20 min, 145F (WTF? temp is RISING?) at 40 min, 152F (no, I don’t have a fire under my cooler) at 60min, 150F. How am I supposed to come up with a strike temp with numbers like this? I think I’ll stick to kettle mashing!

Response:

and stuck in a thermometer. 140F at 20 min, 145F (WTF? temp is RISING?) at 40 min, 152F (no, I don’t have a fire under my cooler) at 60min, 150F. How am I supposed to come up with a strike temp with numbers like this? I think I’ll stick to kettle mashing!

Try 170 degrees and lay off the worrying.  You will be pleasantly surprised at the results and no stirring! — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks! I just happened to be trying to calculate that by experimentation tonight. Heated water to 160F, Dumped in my room temp (80F) 48qt rubbermaid rectangular cooler.

Response:

What is the formula for finding the thermal mass of a Mash Tun? I’m thinking this is where I’m having a slight error in determining my initial strike temperature for single infusion mashing – no accounting for the thermal mass of my equipment. Thanks!

Response:

Question:

I can personally attest to a situation where $5000 worth of repairs were made to a customer’s piece of equipment. They paid with Amex. With no documentaion beyond a letter stating that they disputed the charges and a copy of the invoice, they had the charges reversed and we never saw that money again. I call that keeping the merchandise! And apparently this happens quite often – thank heavens more customers don’t know about it! Experience taught us that Amex was more customer oriented than Visa/MC, but we found from other service companies that they were almost as bad. Well, maybe I do have a lot more to learn about chargebacks.

    Yes.   In your case, the chargeback went to the CC company,     who took it from PayPal, and you want PayPal to "eat" it —     when the CC company didn’t?     I can’t remember – have you ever had your own merchant     account?     The main reason chargebacks are easily done by online     customers is because the credit card is not physically     present, there’s no signature (or chance to match), and     they’re traditionally riskier.     If you check any standard CC mechant agreement, you’ll     see verbage that explains that transactions where the     credit card is not present (telephone, online, etc) are     riskier to the merchant.   The merchant is usually also     charged a higher percentage on such transactions, than     if they ran a credit card through a card reader and got     approval (and a signature match). It would seem very odd to me that AMEX would pull back $5000 without giving the service provider/merchant a chance to present their case.

    That’s exactly what happens.   The customer complains,     the merchant gets a chargeback immediately as part of     the CC’s consumer protection policies — as well as a lengthy     letter informing them of their rights, what action they have     already taken/will take, etc.   My merchant account     specified that I could fight the chargeback, but had to     present (lots of) documentation within 30 days.   I only     had 2 chargebacks in 7 years, but the merchant *does*     have to fight it because you’ll lose your merchant     account if you have a record of "standing" chargebacks. Kris

Response:

I’ll bet you that they will come after you for that $200.  I was luck since my buyer just PayPal the money back and brought my balance back to zero, minus the transaction fee that PayPal refuses to reimburse.  I told them

Well so far they haven’t "automatically" taken the $200 out of my credit card or checking account on file.  As of now the "buyer" has disappeared and of course has never returned the digital camera. Paypal now claims to have "held" their money (although still shows as a $500 debit to me in the crooks favor). At least Ebay has suspended this buyer (and his wife, a sort of crooked tag team) so they have actually done more than paypal regarding this incident (these people ripped off a few others it looks like).

Response:

My balance is -$200 now (I had +$300 and the chargeback was $500) so I’m hoping they don’t automatically take it out of my checking account, credit card etc.  I don’t want to give them a cent more until I at least get this camera back and can see what damage the buyer did to it (if any).  Although I am doubting that this person will even send the camera back!

I’ll bet you that they will come after you for that $200.  I was luck since my buyer just PayPal the money back and brought my balance back to zero, minus the transaction fee that PayPal refuses to reimburse.  I told them that they were lucky that the buyer is honest or you will be taking me to court to get the money.  I will cheerfully go to court to fight these parasites.  The best thing I did was never to get verified or that money would have been pulled from my account in a split second.  I really hope that PayPal does this to more of their high dollar sellers so they loose them like they lost me.  Good luck. Rita

Response:

As an ex-office manager for a small service business, I found out the hard way – the credit card companies listen more to the buyer than the seller. All a customer had to do to reverse a charge was contact Visa, Mastercard, or Amex and dispute a charge and !hey presto! the money was withdrawn from

Well I think my main gripe with Paypal’s policy (other than it being transient and changing direction like the wind) is that they penalize you for stuff that you have no control over; e.g. I never actually RECEIVE a customer’s credit card # for verification of #, exp date, address etc.  However they pass on the chargebacks & penalties to you with little to no recourse other than a spurious "Seller Protection Policy" which is useless when you get right down to it.

Response:

There are a number of outstanding law suits against PP, you may want to jump on one of those too.

Well my main priority is to fight this fraudulent buyer and then add in Paypal as an accessory to the crime (which it basically was).  I guess with publically-traded companies such as Paypal & Enron it’s time to keep my money under the mattress!

Response:

You had the same false sense of security as I did.  Like I told them, ‘I did everything right and I’m being punished.’  Why is that?  Well, they lost me as a customer.  I’m really glad that they showed me the type of low life crooks they are.  Now I am PayPal free and loving it.

There’s just no logic involved with them either; e.g. refunding the whole auction price when they know I had sent $50 as a partial refund for the memory card she claimed was broken.  So much for being a nice guy.  Oh well, at least I don’t have to rely on this to make a living.  I guess it’s too bad that many "dealers" are too happy to just eat the Paypal/customer chargebacks because of the "great convenience" it provides. My balance is -$200 now (I had +$300 and the chargeback was $500) so I’m hoping they don’t automatically take it out of my checking account, credit card etc.  I don’t want to give them a cent more until I at least get this camera back and can see what damage the buyer did to it (if any).  Although I am doubting that this person will even send the camera back!

Response:

    Talk to an attorney, give them all the information     including copies of all emails (including complete     headers).   Have them write a letter to the company

Hi, thanks for all the details you provided on fighting this fraudulent buyer & paypal.  I am definitely going to keep at it.  It’s not that I am destitute with the $1000+ loss via Paypal (I’m just a hobbyist and not a "dealer) but it’s more a matter of principle.   Plus I am just furious that Paypal has this spurious, ever-changing "seller protection policy" which is basically useless. From reading this group last month (when the chargeback started, only 3 mths from the buyer receiving the camera) I sort of figured that even with all my documentation etc it would go against me based on Paypal’s wimpiness.  But for a firm like that to be publicly traded etc is just ridiculous.  The Enron of Internet payments I guess!

Response:

PS — The odd thing is that all along I was supposedly covered by the "Seller Protection Policy" since my case followed everything; e.g. shipped to the confirmed address, easily verifiable tracking # etc. Then all of a sudden they must have retroactively changed the "policy" (such as it is) to "no protection for the seller if the buyer claims it was damaged."  I’m not sure what to do now, mail fraud?  The buyer did it through their company/employee email system so can I get them involved? PPS — I love the value of the "feedback" system — I have 500 on Ebay, 100 on paypal, and this user has about 3 on both but of course the "customer is always right" even if a crook!

There are a number of outstanding law suits against PP, you may want to jump on one of those too. MartyM www.upstatecomputer.com

Response:

Ack!  I just had the exact same thing sent to me at the same time!  In my case a buyer received a digital camera from my ebay auction FOUR MONTHS AGO!  She complained about the 8MB memory card not working (value ~$20) and because I have never had troubles in 500 auctions I took her word for it and in fact refunded $50 via Paypal for her time and trouble.  Well lo-and-behold months later she does a chargeback; Paypal dilly-dallies a month and I get the same email you got about "other than fraudulent funds or false claims of non-receipt."

Don’t you just love it?  There is no reason for this bullshit.  Like I told PayPal, do the math and see what type of seller you are screwing over.  I have made them a large sum of money for doing nothing and this is the thanks I get?  I wasn’t asking them to take my side, I wanted them to be fair. So I’m out the camera, the $500 cash, plus the $50 refund since Paypal was stupid enough to refund the entire auction price even though they can plainly see (from my response to their chargeback "request for info") that I paid back via their own damn service!  So I’m out a grand and the buyer is continuing to lie (claiming she sent the camera back before but I "refused shipment" which is absurd; and I asked for the tracking # for this and she shut up).  Paypal blows; in fact I’m so disgusted with the whole thing after this I may just go back to money orders from now on.

I’m sorry to hear that.  In my case, the buyer was honest and wanted to refund the money, but PayPal wouldn’t let him without taking their cut.  So both of us screwed around with PayPal playing by their rules only to be screwed.  As for money orders, I like taking them as well as company and personal checks.  I feel that you are a hell of a lot safer with paper going through the USPS. PS — The odd thing is that all along I was supposedly covered by the "Seller Protection Policy" since my case followed everything; e.g. shipped to the confirmed address, easily verifiable tracking # etc. Then all of a sudden they must have retroactively changed the "policy" (such as it is) to "no protection for the seller if the buyer claims it was damaged."  I’m not sure what to do now, mail fraud?  The buyer did it through their company/employee email system so can I get them involved?

You had the same false sense of security as I did.  Like I told them, ‘I did everything right and I’m being punished.’  Why is that?  Well, they lost me as a customer.  I’m really glad that they showed me the type of low life crooks they are.  Now I am PayPal free and loving it. Rita – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PPS — I love the value of the "feedback" system — I have 500 on Ebay, 100 on paypal, and this user has about 3 on both but of course the "customer is always right" even if a crook!

Response:

Carl Christensen wrote (snip) I’m not sure what to do now, mail fraud?  The buyer did it through their company/employee email system so can I get them involved?

    Talk to an attorney, give them all the information     including copies of all emails (including complete     headers).   Have them write a letter to the company     that basically says "my client has been defrauded     by your employee, using your company’s email     system".     Make sure you give the attorney a "bullet" (or     "point") paper, laying out the facts in simple     one-line sentences:     1.  On (date), (email address) paid me $xxx for auction xxxx         via PayPal     2.  On (date), I shipped the item.     3.  On (date), four months later, I was notified that the          memory card did not work.     4.  On (date), I sent (email address) $50 to replace     the $20 item.     5.  On (date), (email address) initiated a CC chargeback     for $xxx.     6.  I am now out the camera, the $50, and another     $xxx due to the chargeback.     7.   Total losses:  $xxx You have to do it this way, in order that the attorney can summarize the events accurately.  You can’t do a long- winded narrative.  Make it easy for the attorney, and it won’t cost you much. Kris     4.  On (date), I ref – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -PPS — I love the value of the "feedback" system — I have 500 on Ebay, 100 on paypal, and this user has about 3 on both but of course the "customer is always right" even if a crook!

Response:

"The transaction was reversed because our seller protection policy does not cover sellers from receiving chargebacks against anything other than fraudulent funds or false claims of non-receipt of

Ack!  I just had the exact same thing sent to me at the same time!  In my case a buyer received a digital camera from my ebay auction FOUR MONTHS AGO!  She complained about the 8MB memory card not working (value ~$20) and because I have never had troubles in 500 auctions I took her word for it and in fact refunded $50 via Paypal for her time and trouble.  Well lo-and-behold months later she does a chargeback; Paypal dilly-dallies a month and I get the same email you got about "other than fraudulent funds or false claims of non-receipt." So I’m out the camera, the $500 cash, plus the $50 refund since Paypal was stupid enough to refund the entire auction price even though they can plainly see (from my response to their chargeback "request for info") that I paid back via their own damn service!  So I’m out a grand and the buyer is continuing to lie (claiming she sent the camera back before but I "refused shipment" which is absurd; and I asked for the tracking # for this and she shut up).  Paypal blows; in fact I’m so disgusted with the whole thing after this I may just go back to money orders from now on. PS — The odd thing is that all along I was supposedly covered by the "Seller Protection Policy" since my case followed everything; e.g. shipped to the confirmed address, easily verifiable tracking # etc. Then all of a sudden they must have retroactively changed the "policy" (such as it is) to "no protection for the seller if the buyer claims it was damaged."  I’m not sure what to do now, mail fraud?  The buyer did it through their company/employee email system so can I get them involved? PPS — I love the value of the "feedback" system — I have 500 on Ebay, 100 on paypal, and this user has about 3 on both but of course the "customer is always right" even if a crook!

Response:

I can personally attest to a situation where $5000 worth of repairs were made to a customer’s piece of equipment. They paid with Amex. With no documentaion beyond a letter stating that they disputed the charges and a copy of the invoice, they had the charges reversed and we never saw that money again. I call that keeping the merchandise!

I don’t know what happened on the merchant end, but several years ago when I purchased an item from a catalogue that failed to arrive, my Visa company du jour (I think it was Citibank) did a chargeback on my say-so, no waiting, no forms that I can recall, just a request that I should notify them and the merchant if it ever did turn up.  Obviously there’s no way I or they could differentiate that from my receiving the item and pretending I hadn’t. If somebody here has actually worked in a credit-card company they might have more light to shed.  But my guess is that it’s not worth it to them to investigate on a lot of chargebacks–that they’ll probably be able to keep both the merchant and the customer, and that chargebacks are often cheaper than the investigation (I *think*, on a recent chargeback, they didn’t actually "chargeback" but just plunked the small amount into my account from their own coffers). The other complicating factor is that ease of chargeback is one reason why customers like buying things with credit cards, and if companies changed that credit cards would quite possibly become less popular as a mail-order/net-business tool.  Which would shrink customer bases (and, on eBay, prices) as a consequence, leaving the merchants damaged that way instead. Deborah Stevenson

Response:

    Yes.   In your case, the chargeback went to the CC company,     who took it from PayPal, and you want PayPal to "eat" it —     when the CC company didn’t?

On the contrary, I don’t want PayPal to eat the chargeback, nor do I expect them to.  What I wanted from PayPal is to be treated fair, impartial, professionally, honestly, and with a little bit of dignity thrown in for good measure.  I hope I’m not expecting too much from them?  They were expected to do their part and present my case to the credit card company, they didn’t.  Nor did they listen to a cooperating buyer.     I can’t remember – have you ever had your own merchant     account?

Just got it.     The main reason chargebacks are easily done by online     customers is because the credit card is not physically     present, there’s no signature (or chance to match), and     they’re traditionally riskier.

Agreed.     If you check any standard CC mechant agreement, you’ll     see verbage that explains that transactions where the     credit card is not present (telephone, online, etc) are     riskier to the merchant.   The merchant is usually also     charged a higher percentage on such transactions, than     if they ran a credit card through a card reader and got     approval (and a signature match).

That is correct. It would seem very odd to me that AMEX would pull back $5000 without giving the service provider/merchant a chance to present their case.     That’s exactly what happens.   The customer complains,     the merchant gets a chargeback immediately as part of     the CC’s consumer protection policies — as well as a lengthy     letter informing them of their rights, what action they have     already taken/will take, etc.   My merchant account     specified that I could fight the chargeback, but had to     present (lots of) documentation within 30 days.   I only     had 2 chargebacks in 7 years, but the merchant *does*     have to fight it because you’ll lose your merchant     account if you have a record of "standing" chargebacks.

Exactly, this is my point.  PayPal, as my representative, should be fighting the credit card company on my behalf with the evidence that I provided to them.  It took me three weeks to get a fax number from them so that I can provide the hard documentation that I had concerning this matter.  In the 30+ days I was not allowed to talk to anyone in the chargeback department, nor were any of my request to have an investigator call back honored. PayPal claims that they do all the work for you when a chargeback occurs, but I haven’t seen them demonstrate this yet.  You know why?  Because passing the chargeback on the seller is easier and less time consuming.  My problem isn’t with the chargeback or the fact that it happened, it’s with the lack of service PayPal provided when dealing with my case.  I have no problem if someone files a chargeback because they were defrauded in some way.  I think that the buyer should be made to feel comfortable with online transactions. My case was cut and dry.  The buyer was refunded his money two weeks prior to the charegback showing up on my account.  He canceled the chargeback immediately after receiving his refund.  He sent e-mail to PayPal stating that the chargeback had been long canceled.  I had a buyer who wanted to return my money without me incurring anymore fees, but PayPal refused and said that it is a separate transaction and will be charge the appropriate fees.  Here is a buyer cooperating and PayPal refusing to assist him. In all of this, PayPal made their cut three times on my money.  Bottome line, PayPal will make money no matter what. Rita

Response:

   If you check any standard CC mechant agreement, you’ll    see verbage that explains that transactions where the    credit card is not present (telephone, online, etc) are    riskier to the merchant.   The merchant is usually also    charged a higher percentage on such transactions, than    if they ran a credit card through a card reader and got    approval (and a signature match).

I had a credit card for awhile that would require an additional verification step if such a transaction was made in a different country from the user.  Unfortunately, it wasn’t very clear about that step, so it left me with several baffled and annoyed British booksellers .  And sent me off to a new credit card. Deborah Stevenson

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PayPal is not a credit card company. Hi Rita Welcome to the world of being a merchant! Thanks.  I’m not totally new to this, but I have a lot to learn. As an ex-office manager for a small service business, I found out the hard way – the credit card companies listen more to the buyer than the seller. All a customer had to do to reverse a charge was contact Visa, Mastercard, or Amex and dispute a charge and !hey presto! the money was withdrawn from out company account. This would immediately come off the credit card users billing (no doubt they hadn’t paid it yet). We then had to fight long and hard to get it back. Agreed, and I have no problem with this.  At least you had the luxury to fight and present your case.  You had a glimmer of hope that you may be paid or get your merchandise back.  I didn’t have this luxury with PayPal.  I went trough the motions of presenting my case long after the verdict was in. My fait was sealed with PayPal long before I even made this transaction with the customer.  I don’t know what credit card company, other than PayPal, would refund the buyer’s money and let them keep the merchandise.

I can personally attest to a situation where $5000 worth of repairs were made to a customer’s piece of equipment. They paid with Amex. With no documentaion beyond a letter stating that they disputed the charges and a copy of the invoice, they had the charges reversed and we never saw that money again. I call that keeping the merchandise! And apparently this happens quite often – thank heavens more customers don’t know about it! Experience taught us that Amex was more customer oriented than Visa/MC, but we found from other service companies that they were almost as bad. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So it would seem to me that instead of PayPal acting as a "bad guy", they are following the industry standard. I tend to disagree with you when you say that they are following the industry standard.  If they are, then the whole industry needs reforming. This incident has opened my eyes and I have done a lot of research that proves that they have set their own standard.  I’m not siding with the credit card companies, as I know they all can be ruthless and resort to underhanded tactics.  I think PayPal is so far disassociated from a credit card company that they feel they are above the law.  Most credit card companies, the legitimate ones, are backed by a large financial institution (bank) and have to hold a slightly higher standard, which makes them slightly more accountable for their actions. You, as an ex-office manager should know that PayPal is not following the industry standard.  I guess the big question for me to ask you.  Have you ever gone through the chargeback process with PayPal?  If so, was it for a reasonable sum, $500+? Was the customer service representatives knowledgeable and cooperative?  Was it completed to your satisfaction? How would you compare it with the chargeback you went through with your merchants account? Believe me, I felt the same way that you do.  It can’t happen to me. Well it did.  Now I believe some of the horror stories out here now.

Did I say it couldn’t happen to me? I think not. And I think my company’s loss of $5000 is a wee bit more than $500+. I stand behind my feeling that they are all the same Good luck to one and all! Thanks, Rita

And yes, copper, I’m well aware PayPal is not a credit card company OB

Response:

I can personally attest to a situation where $5000 worth of repairs were made to a customer’s piece of equipment. They paid with Amex. With no documentaion beyond a letter stating that they disputed the charges and a copy of the invoice, they had the charges reversed and we never saw that money again. I call that keeping the merchandise! And apparently this happens quite often – thank heavens more customers don’t know about it! Experience taught us that Amex was more customer oriented than Visa/MC, but we found from other service companies that they were almost as bad.

Well, maybe I do have a lot more to learn about chargebacks.  It would seem very odd to me that AMEX would pull back $5000 without giving the service provider/merchant a chance to present their case.  Not that I doubt you, I feel there is more behind this story than meets the eye.  Maybe the service provider has a reputation of providing poor service and a long history of chargebacks?  Still, they would still be given ample time and chance to dispute. I have a friend who purchased two high-end computer monitors that were not a described, different model than advertised and used instead of new.  This was pre-ebay days.  He purchased them on his American Express card.  I can attest that he went through hell to get his money back.  Filling out forms, fighting about whom is responsible for shipping.  Long story short, he finally did get his money refund ONLY after he provided proof of shipping the merchandise back.  This whole ordeal seemed to last about six months or more.  So, Amex may be the easiest card to do a chargeback on, but there are still lots of hoops the holder has to jump through. Did I say it couldn’t happen to me? I think not. And I think my companies loss of $5000 is a wee bit more than $500+. I stand behind my feeling that they are all the same

Understand.  I was using the $500+ for a base figure were most business would eat the chargeback and not fight it.  As I said above, I think there is more behind the story.  Maybe service provided and merchandise fall into two separate categories and are treated differently when a chargeback occurs? No, I still feel that PayPal and legitimate card companies are not the same. I still have to ask if you have experienced a chargeback first hand using PayPal?  This is what I’m trying to find out and compare the two. If all CC companies ARE truly the same, I mean compared with PayPal’s evasive phone support, underhanded tactics, not providing information that would benefit your case if outside legal action is required, and not being accountable for their actions we are all in trouble. And yes, copper, I’m well aware PayPal is not a credit card company

I think that he may be directing that at me?  And I do realize that they are not a credit card company, always did.  Thank God. Rita

Response:

PayPal is not a credit card company.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Rita Welcome to the world of being a merchant! Thanks.  I’m not totally new to this, but I have a lot to learn. As an ex-office manager for a small service business, I found out the hard way – the credit card companies listen more to the buyer than the seller. All a customer had to do to reverse a charge was contact Visa, Mastercard, or Amex and dispute a charge and !hey presto! the money was withdrawn from out company account. This would immediately come off the credit card users billing (no doubt they hadn’t paid it yet). We then had to fight long and hard to get it back. Agreed, and I have no problem with this.  At least you had the luxury to fight and present your case.  You had a glimmer of hope that you may be paid or get your merchandise back.  I didn’t have this luxury with PayPal.  I went trough the motions of presenting my case long after the verdict was in. My fait was sealed with PayPal long before I even made this transaction with the customer.  I don’t know what credit card company, other than PayPal, would refund the buyer’s money and let them keep the merchandise. So it would seem to me that instead of PayPal acting as a "bad guy", they are following the industry standard. I tend to disagree with you when you say that they are following the industry standard.  If they are, then the whole industry needs reforming. This incident has opened my eyes and I have done a lot of research that proves that they have set their own standard.  I’m not siding with the credit card companies, as I know they all can be ruthless and resort to underhanded tactics.  I think PayPal is so far disassociated from a credit card company that they feel they are above the law.  Most credit card companies, the legitimate ones, are backed by a large financial institution (bank) and have to hold a slightly higher standard, which makes them slightly more accountable for their actions. You, as an ex-office manager should know that PayPal is not following the industry standard.  I guess the big question for me to ask you.  Have you ever gone through the chargeback process with PayPal?  If so, was it for a reasonable sum, $500+? Was the customer service representatives knowledgeable and cooperative?  Was it completed to your satisfaction? How would you compare it with the chargeback you went through with your merchants account? Believe me, I felt the same way that you do.  It can’t happen to me.  Well it did.  Now I believe some of the horror stories out here now. Good luck to one and all! Thanks, Rita

Response:

snip What this means is that a buyer can claim anything he likes to initiate a chargeback and get a refund from PayPal and keep the merchandise.  Another words, PayPal is saying that the seller is on his own when it comes to recovering his funds and/or merchandise.

Hi Rita Welcome to the world of being a merchant! As an ex-office manager for a small service business, I found out the hard way – the credit card companies listen more to the buyer than the seller. All a customer had to do to reverse a charge was contact Visa, Mastercard, or Amex and dispute a charge and !hey presto! the money was withdrawn from out company account. This would immediately come off the credit card users billing (no doubt they hadn’t paid it yet). We then had to fight long and hard to get it back. So it would seem to me that instead of PayPal acting as a "bad guy", they are following the industry standard. Good luck to one and all! MB

Response:

Hi Rita Welcome to the world of being a merchant!

Thanks.  I’m not totally new to this, but I have a lot to learn. As an ex-office manager for a small service business, I found out the hard way – the credit card companies listen more to the buyer than the seller. All a customer had to do to reverse a charge was contact Visa, Mastercard, or Amex and dispute a charge and !hey presto! the money was withdrawn from out company account. This would immediately come off the credit card users billing (no doubt they hadn’t paid it yet). We then had to fight long and hard to get it back.

Agreed, and I have no problem with this.  At least you had the luxury to fight and present your case.  You had a glimmer of hope that you may be paid or get your merchandise back.  I didn’t have this luxury with PayPal.  I went trough the motions of presenting my case long after the verdict was in. My fait was sealed with PayPal long before I even made this transaction with the customer.  I don’t know what credit card company, other than PayPal, would refund the buyer’s money and let them keep the merchandise. So it would seem to me that instead of PayPal acting as a "bad guy", they are following the industry standard.

I tend to disagree with you when you say that they are following the industry standard.  If they are, then the whole industry needs reforming. This incident has opened my eyes and I have done a lot of research that proves that they have set their own standard.  I’m not siding with the credit card companies, as I know they all can be ruthless and resort to underhanded tactics.  I think PayPal is so far disassociated from a credit card company that they feel they are above the law.  Most credit card companies, the legitimate ones, are backed by a large financial institution (bank) and have to hold a slightly higher standard, which makes them slightly more accountable for their actions. You, as an ex-office manager should know that PayPal is not following the industry standard.  I guess the big question for me to ask you.  Have you ever gone through the chargeback process with PayPal?  If so, was it for a reasonable sum, $500+? Was the customer service representatives knowledgeable and cooperative?  Was it completed to your satisfaction?  How would you compare it with the chargeback you went through with your merchants account? Believe me, I felt the same way that you do.  It can’t happen to me.  Well it did.  Now I believe some of the horror stories out here now. Good luck to one and all!

Thanks, Rita

Response:

Well, my chargeback is finally complete and I just received the verdict. After many hours of trying to get help from PayPal

Question:

Greetings, well he has made interesting use of the cambala. notice the spelling of poo-nam or poonam. poo is baby slang for feces or the rotting fecal matter found in the lower body he advocates as animal celluar feces via his choice of alais. nam is simply the reduction of namaste may the light within me greet you. So he’s attempting to say black/white in cambala. "poo" + "nam" so using the very same methods of the cambala we could say nampooo which rhymes with shame on you or showing him backwards the light looking within instead of the light covered in darknes as nampoo would then do . Then we see its an alais certainly and he has a festered guilty keyword"….derived from the mysteries of the cambala, nite jd ( owenship of a cambala works fine for me/grin)

Response:

The greatest spiritual masters and teachers that ever existed were all meat eaters!

name 10 ! dickhead

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unfortuneatly vegetarianism is spreading like a fungal disease, hopefully the following facts discourages any more converts to this stupidity: Vegetarian lies: lie1) vegetarians are "more spiritual" **** FACT, GOD PREFERS TO SPEAK TO ONLY MEAT EATERS… The greatest spiritual masters and teachers that ever existed were all meat eaters! SNIP,..Prattle ,Prattle..Yawn.. I really cant believe how small minded and petty this rubbish is. The poster of this is in a bad way.

Response:

Unfortuneatly vegetarianism is spreading like a fungal disease, hopefully the following facts discourages any more converts to this stupidity: Vegetarian lies: lie1) vegetarians are "more spiritual" **** FACT, GOD PREFERS TO SPEAK TO ONLY MEAT EATERS… The greatest spiritual masters and teachers that ever existed were all meat eaters!

SNIP,..Prattle ,Prattle..Yawn.. I really cant believe how small minded and petty this rubbish is. The poster of this is in a bad way.

Response:

It is clear that you are shithead. Thats why you have repeated the postung three times, you can’t even count.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unfortuneatly vegetarianism is spreading like a fungal disease, hopefully the following facts discourages any more converts to this stupidity: Vegetarian lies: lie1) vegetarians are "more spiritual" **** FACT, GOD PREFERS TO SPEAK TO ONLY MEAT EATERS… The greatest spiritual masters and teachers that ever existed were all meat eaters! In east asia: Vedic seers(the Brihadaranyaka Upanishada (VI.4.18) advises a couple to take an evening meal of beef or veal pulao,to beget a son who is learned in the Vedas) ,  Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Lao-tsu all ate meat. In west asia: Abraham, Moses and Christ all ate meat("Every creature that lives and moves shall be food for you" (Genesis 9:3). ! in fact, the Bible even says that vegetarianism is the word of the devil: The Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some in the church will turn away from Christ and become eager followers of teachers with devil inspired ideas. These teachers will tell lies with straight faces and do it so often that their consciences won’t even bother them. They will say that it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat meat, even though God gave these things to well-taught Christians to enjoy and be thankful for. For everything God made is good, and we may eat it gladly if we are thankful for it. ( I Timothy 4:1-4, Living Bible) lie 2) vegetarian food is "safer" from disease:   Fact:According to the congressional General Accounting Office, an estimated 85 percent of annual food illness outbreaks are caused by vegetables, fruits, seafood and cheeses – not the meat, dairy and egg products most people think of in connection with food poisoning. lie 3) vegetarian food is healthier: fact: children are the greatest victims of vegetarianism: "My bet is those kids will have health problems when they reach 40, 50 or 60 years of age," she says, "mostly because of imbalances with micronutrients [nutrients required only in small amounts], particularly iron, zinc and copper." While meat is well-known as an important source of iron, Hill says it may be even more valuable for copper and zinc. Copper not only helps build the body’s immunity, it builds red blood cells and strengthens blood vessels. "A lot of Americans are marginal in this micronutrient," she says, "and, as a result, are more susceptible to diseases. Children can’t meet their zinc needs without eating meat." Also, vegetarian women of childbearing age have an increased chance of menstrual irregularities, lie 4) you reduce suffering by vegetarianism, vegetables are lowly and feel nothing,   fact, scientists are finding that plants feel as well:Now with   modern day equipment, plant physiologists are beginning to understand much more about plant movement. It has been confirmed that the impulses Burdon-Sanderson detected are indeed action potentials similar to those in animals, they are also now beginning to unravel the molecular and cellular reasons of the ability of plants to respond to touch. -upon being trampled plants lie 5) non-vegetarians are cowards since they kill defenseless animals:  fact vegetarians are the most cowardly since they kill for food  those things that can’t even run to defend itself… MORE FACTS ON WHY MEAT EATERS ARE THE COOLEST: –Raising your kids as non-vegetarians prepares them for anything! Non-vegetarians are able to adapt far better to different climates, including subsaharan deserts where there are no plants or arctic cold weather where again there are no plants…GREATER ADAPTABILITY MAKES NON_VEGETARIANS SUPERIOR HUMANS ready for everything… –All the greatest civilizations were all created by non-vegetarians, from ancient to modern times. –the greatest geniuses and inventors were and most nobel laureates are all non-vegetarian — most of the greatest athletes were non-vegetarians or raised on non-vegetarian diets. — finally, if you are what you eat, why would you want to be a lowly, brainless vegetable?

y do u have a problem with veggies ? if u like eating meat so much then u can munch on my kebab,

Response:

Unfortuneatly vegetarianism is spreading like a fungal disease, hopefully the following facts discourages any more converts to this stupidity: Vegetarian lies: lie1) vegetarians are "more spiritual" **** FACT, GOD PREFERS TO SPEAK TO ONLY MEAT EATERS… The greatest spiritual masters and teachers that ever existed were all meat eaters! In east asia: Vedic seers(the Brihadaranyaka Upanishada (VI.4.18) advises a couple to take an evening meal of beef or veal pulao,to beget a son who is

learned in the Vedas) , – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Lao-tsu all ate meat. In west asia: Abraham, Moses and Christ all ate meat("Every creature that lives and moves shall be food for you" (Genesis 9:3). ! in fact, the Bible even says that vegetarianism is the word of the devil: The Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some in the church will turn away from Christ and become eager followers of teachers with devil inspired ideas. These teachers will tell lies with straight faces and do it so often that their consciences won’t even bother them. They will say that it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat meat, even though God gave these things to well-taught Christians to enjoy and be thankful for. For everything God made is good, and we may eat it gladly if we are thankful for it. ( I Timothy 4:1-4, Living Bible) lie 2) vegetarian food is "safer" from disease:   Fact:According to the congressional General Accounting Office, an estimated 85 percent of annual food illness outbreaks are caused by vegetables, fruits, seafood and cheeses – not the meat, dairy and egg products most people think of in connection with food poisoning. lie 3) vegetarian food is healthier: fact: children are the greatest victims of vegetarianism: "My bet is those kids will have health problems when they reach 40, 50 or 60 years of age," she says, "mostly because of imbalances with micronutrients [nutrients required only in small amounts], particularly iron, zinc and copper." While meat is well-known as an important source of iron, Hill says it may be even more valuable for copper and zinc. Copper not only helps build the body’s immunity, it builds red blood cells and strengthens blood vessels. "A lot of Americans are marginal in this micronutrient," she says, "and, as a result, are more susceptible to diseases. Children can’t meet their zinc needs without eating meat." Also, vegetarian women of childbearing age have an increased chance of menstrual irregularities, lie 4) you reduce suffering by vegetarianism, vegetables are lowly and feel nothing,   fact, scientists are finding that plants feel as well:Now with modern day equipment, plant physiologists are beginning to understand much more about plant movement. It has been confirmed that the impulses Burdon-Sanderson detected are indeed action potentials similar to those in animals, they are also now beginning to unravel the molecular and cellular reasons of the ability of plants to respond to touch. -upon being trampled plants lie 5) non-vegetarians are cowards since they kill defenseless animals:  fact vegetarians are the most cowardly since they kill for food those things that can’t even run to defend itself… MORE FACTS ON WHY MEAT EATERS ARE THE COOLEST: –Raising your kids as non-vegetarians prepares them for anything! Non-vegetarians are able to adapt far better to different climates, including subsaharan deserts where there are no plants or arctic cold weather where again there are no plants…GREATER ADAPTABILITY MAKES NON_VEGETARIANS SUPERIOR HUMANS ready for everything… –All the greatest civilizations were all created by non-vegetarians, from ancient to modern times. –the greatest geniuses and inventors were and most nobel laureates are all non-vegetarian — most of the greatest athletes were non-vegetarians or raised on non-vegetarian diets. — finally, if you are what you eat, why would you want to be a lowly, brainless vegetable?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Unfortuneatly vegetarianism is spreading like a fungal disease, hopefully the following facts discourages any more converts to this stupidity: Vegetarian lies: lie1) vegetarians are "more spiritual" **** FACT, GOD PREFERS TO SPEAK TO ONLY MEAT EATERS… The greatest spiritual masters and teachers that ever existed were all meat eaters! In east asia: Vedic seers(the Brihadaranyaka Upanishada (VI.4.18) advises a couple to take an evening meal of beef or veal pulao,and have bull and cow like sex if they desire to beget a son who is learned in the Vedas) ,  Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Lao-tsu all ate meat. In west asia: Abraham, Moses and Christ all ate meat("Every creature that lives and moves shall be food for you" (Genesis 9:3). ! in fact, the Bible even says that vegetarianism is the word of the devil: The Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some in the church will turn away from Christ and become eager followers of teachers with devil inspired ideas. These teachers will tell lies with straight faces and do it so often that their consciences won’t even bother them. They will say that it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat meat, even though God gave these things to well-taught Christians to enjoy and be thankful for. For everything God made is good, and we may eat it gladly if we are thankful for it. ( I Timothy 4:1-4, Living Bible) lie 2) vegetarian food is "safer" from disease:   Fact:According to the congressional General Accounting Office, an estimated 85 percent of annual food illness outbreaks are caused by vegetables, fruits, seafood and cheeses – not the meat, dairy and egg products most people think of in connection with food poisoning. lie 3) vegetarian food is healthier: fact: children are the greatest victims of vegetarianism: "My bet is those kids will have health problems when they reach 40, 50 or 60 years of age," she says, "mostly because of imbalances with micronutrients [nutrients required only in small amounts], particularly iron, zinc and copper." While meat is well-known as an important source of iron, Hill says it may be even more valuable for copper and zinc. Copper not only helps build the body’s immunity, it builds red blood cells and strengthens blood vessels. "A lot of Americans are marginal in this micronutrient," she says, "and, as a result, are more susceptible to diseases. Children can’t meet their zinc needs without eating meat." Also, vegetarian women of childbearing age have an increased chance of menstrual irregularities, lie 4) you reduce suffering by vegetarianism, vegetables are lowly and feel nothing,   fact, scientists are finding that plants feel as well:Now with modern day equipment, plant physiologists are beginning to understand much more about plant movement. It has been confirmed that the impulses Burdon-Sanderson detected are indeed action potentials similar to those in animals, they are also now beginning to unravel the molecular and cellular reasons of the ability of plants to respond to touch. -upon being trampled plants lie 5) non-vegetarians are cowards since they kill defenseless animals:  fact vegetarians are the most cowardly since they kill for food those things that can’t even run to defend itself… MORE FACTS ON WHY MEAT EATERS ARE THE COOLEST: –Raising your kids as non-vegetarians prepares them for anything! Non-vegetarians are able to adapt far better to different climates, including subsaharan deserts where there are no plants or arctic cold weather where again there are no plants…GREATER ADAPTABILITY MAKES NON_VEGETARIANS SUPERIOR HUMANS ready for everything… –All the greatest civilizations were all created by non-vegetarians, from ancient to modern times. –the greatest geniuses and inventors were and most nobel laureates are all non-vegetarian — most of the greatest athletes were non-vegetarians or raised on non-vegetarian diets. — finally, if you are what you eat, why would you want to be a lowly, brainless vegetable?

Response:

Question:

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Response:

The sender of this SPAM is Art Schwartz. For information on Art’s ‘business’ go to http://artie2001.exit.mytoday.de Help to put an end to Art’s SPAM by sending complaints to:         and     wcom.net Make sure that you enclose both the headers and the message. .

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Question:

3.  The hull  is that wierd avocado green color that was popular in the 70’s….and I was thinking of repainting it white inside and out (before carpeting)…where can I find info on painting fiberglass?

I’m not sure about the info other than talking to those that do it professionally. I used to do repairs as a sideline to fill in for too low an income on my regular job, I found Dupont Imron( actually a truck fleet designed paint) to be about the best paint in terms of both holding power and lustre but you really need pro equipment to handle and spray this paint. I forget the name of the marine counterpart to this product, it has a similar makeup , costs even more though. Like I said, the boat’s in fine condition and the price is right ($500, trailer included!!), and she’ll be a looker as well as a runner with a little TLC…all I need is to be steered in the right direction!

Just be carefull of a deal "too good to be true", there could be rot in the transom or stringers check it out carefully. Also look out for costs of repairs with the engine, if it looks like they are going to start to skyrocket , you may do just as well with another used unit, maybe one from a dealer wth a little warranty or just a newer engine from a private sale. I wouldn’t sink a lot of dough in an old unit. Then again it may be just fine and just needs a little doctoring up ot nothing at all. I’m just suggesting to error, do so with caution that’s all, you might have a good deal here, and you can call me an ass later on, that’s fine. Good luck, David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Many, many thanks in advance!!!! Dave

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1.  The owner just put in new plywood decking and the interior’s gutted. Where can I get info on proper installation of new carpeting? 2.  New or good, used seats…methods of mounting…any recommendations?   3.  The hull  is that wierd avocado green color that was popular in the 70’s….and I was thinking of repainting it white inside and out (before carpeting)…where can I find info on painting fiberglass?

try this places: http://www.rbbi.com/links/boatl.htm#newsgrp http://www.boatowners.com/directories.htm ..but I’m new to outboard engines…..I want to know all I can about them

before putting the boat in the water.  Any recommendations on that?? Go to your nearest  Evinrude/Johnson Dealer. Buy yourself an OEM Service Manual for your specific make and model motor. It will have all the information you want to know on that motor. Ask the dealer to get you any service bulletin that came out on the motor also.

Response:

I’ve been thinking about buying a boat….ideally a project boat that I can work on during the off-season. Reasons being, a basket case will be cheaper (initially) and I just like working on things.  Heck, I’ve often thought that if I bought a brand-new, "chery" boat I’d be disappointed, ‘cuz there wouldn’t be much to do to it!!!

I agree.  Tinkering around on a fixer-upper is almost as much fun as using it. With my aberrant mindset communicated, here’s the deal. I just found such a boat – a 16 foot fiberglass runabout with a 90 hp Evinrude….the hull’s in great shape and the engine’s ok….BUT… 1.  The owner just put in new plywood decking and the interior’s gutted. Where can I get info on proper installation of new carpeting?

First, make sure that the plywood has a good moisture barrier on it. Fiberglassing it is best, a coulple coats of epoxy will do. Using my less $ is better mindset, You can get some indoor/outdoor carpet from your local Home Depot for about $2.50 a linear ft.  This stuff is typically only 6′ wide.  Therefore, if you will be carpeting the inside hull sides, you will need to run a seam down the centerline of the boat.  I started at the center to ensure a good seam, glued the center edges of both pieces of carpet, using an outdoor carpet glue. Make sure you have adequate ventilation. From there, I spread glue and laid carpet all the way up to the gunwales, trimmed with a sharp utility knife and was done.  Do one side completely first, then the other.  Make sure you identify any access hatches and cut around those after you have laid the carpet.  Don’t ask me how I figured that one out. 2.  New or good, used seats…methods of mounting…any recommendations?

I bought some new seats from Overtons.com for about $80 per seat.  Decent quality.  When you are ready to mount them, just determine where you would like the seats to be, drill some pilot holes and screw them down to the deck. 3.  The hull  is that wierd avocado green color that was popular in the 70’s….and I was thinking of repainting it white inside and out (before carpeting)…where can I find info on painting fiberglass?

I know Interlux make a form of top-sides fiberglass paint.  It’s not cheap, about $80 a gallon if memory serves, but if done right, I’ve heard it looks nice.  I’ve read on this group about a roller and brush technique where you roll the paint on, and then lightly brush over it to remove any bubbles. 4.  I can hold my own when it comes to mechanickin’…but I’m new to outboard engines…..I want to know all I can about them before putting the boat in the water.  Any recommendations on that??

I don’t have any knowledge of outboards.  Sorry Like I said, the boat’s in fine condition and the price is right ($500, trailer included!!), and she’ll be a looker as well as a runner with a little TLC…all I need is to be steered in the right direction!

Few hundred $ more (not accounting for any mechanical issues) and it will look like new again.  Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many, many thanks in advance!!!! Dave

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Geez I can’t wait till this evening!!! I couldn’t sleep last nite because of

this….am I alone in that??<< — Dave No.  I always shed a tear when I have mine hauled out for the winter, too.

Response:

Well, the latest about my boat is this….. 1. I pick it up today. 2. Engine needs a new propeller seal….other than that, peachy. 3. Hull’s fine…..transom, etc. is in great shape. 4. The guy’s selling it because he just hasn’t had the time to put into the project. A friend of mine with boo-coo boating experience checked her out…..and he believes she’s a solid little boat )))) OH…..particulars…..she’s a Cobia Sprint with a 90hp Evinrude Straflite on the back….. Geez I can’t wait till this evening!!! I couldn’t sleep last nite because of this….am I alone in that?? Thanks !!! Dave

Response:

Definintely get a copy of Jim Anderson’s Runabout Renovation (sorry, Lloyd — not Restoration!). It’s a great book, written by someone who not only knows the subject, but loves it, too. If I were you, I’d order a copy and follow the inspection techniques in it before making a firm deal on the boat you’re looking at. Amazon can get it to you quick — check http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0071580085/o/qid=965170447/sr=… -0415836-0088932 Good luck, Pete

Check out the book "Runabout Restoration" (donno the author – try Amazon Books online). It has lots on how to restore a fibreglass runabout. Also, get the shop manual for the engine – it should tell you all you need to know about the engine, lower unit, etc.    Hope you have as much fun as I’m having with Stinky! Lloyd Sumpter "Stinky" Fibrecraft 14 –

http://www.members.home.net/lsumpter/boats/stinky.html

Response:

Yup, that’s it!    I did find a lot of things missing. For instance, when I was fixing Stinky’s steering, I looked in the book…NOTHING about steering. Of course, nothing about the motor. And IIRC, precious little about the seats. And nothing about canvas tops.    So, lots of good information for other folks restoring their runabouts – nothing to help me with Stinky. Lloyd Sumpter "Stinky" Fibrecraft 14 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Definintely get a copy of Jim Anderson’s Runabout Renovation (sorry, Lloyd — not Restoration!). It’s a great book, written by someone who not only knows the subject, but loves it, too. If I were you, I’d order a copy and follow the inspection techniques in it before making a firm deal on the boat you’re looking at. Amazon can get it to you quick — check http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0071580085/o/qid=965170447/sr=… -0415836-0088932 Good luck, Pete Check out the book "Runabout Restoration" (donno the author – try Amazon Books online). It has lots on how to restore a fibreglass runabout. Also, get the shop manual for the engine – it should tell you all you need to know about the engine, lower unit, etc.    Hope you have as much fun as I’m having with Stinky! Lloyd Sumpter "Stinky" Fibrecraft 14 – http://www.members.home.net/lsumpter/boats/stinky.html

Response:

I went all through the boat today and couldn’t find anything wrong, rot-wise or other….tomorrow (which MIGHT be THE day!!!)  I"m gonna have the owner restart and re-run the motor for me….and then is when the $$ transaction will occur. He’s asking $600 for it, and I have a good idea that he’ll take $500….I understand perfectly what you guys are talking about being too good to be true….and THANK YOU ALL for your help ))  I truly appreciate it, and I’m sure I’ll be asking alot of questions over the next few months……. By the way, David, an ass you are NOT And I know what you mean about Imron. My dad has shot it successfully a number of times but his friend didn’t…his wife found him in his garage cutting the soles off his boots with a utility knife……said he was cutting blisters off his feet!! I’ve found a way to use the boat’s light-olive color to advantage……since she’s small, cute, and sure to be spritely, I’m going to name her after my niece……Olivia!!! Thanks again, everyone! Dave

Response:

YES!!!   My sentiments exactly!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if I bought a brand-new, "chery" boat I’d be disappointed, ‘cuz there wouldn’t be much to do to it!!!  Also: – It won’t be EXACTLY what you want. You can make a project boat into whatever you desire. – It won’t have YOUR signature. It’s VERY satisfying to look at a boat (or a part of it) and say "*I* did that!". – You’ll know exactly how it was put together, so that WHEN a problem occurs and you’re in the middle of nowhere, you will know how to fix it.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -YES!!!   My sentiments exactly!!!! if I bought a brand-new, "chery" boat I’d be disappointed, ‘cuz there wouldn’t be much to do to it!!!  Also: – It won’t be EXACTLY what you want. You can make a project boat into whatever you desire. – It won’t have YOUR signature. It’s VERY satisfying to look at a boat (or a part of it) and say "*I* did that!". – You’ll know exactly how it was put together, so that WHEN a problem occurs and you’re in the middle of nowhere, you will know how to fix it.

One concern I have regarding your new purchase is: Why did the previous owner decide to sell the boat after flopping the deck? Could it be that the structure under the deck is rotted? Is there anyway to check to see if everything below is ok before going any further without damage to the newly installed decking?  

Response:

I’ve been thinking about buying a boat….ideally a project boat that I can work on during the off-season.

  Hmm.  I have a 18 foot tournament ski boat I am looking to unload that would fit this description… 1.  The owner just put in new plywood decking and the interior’s gutted.  Where can I get info on proper installation of new carpeting?

  Use the best quality outdoor carpet, and get the best quality outdoor carpet glue. 2.  New or good, used seats…methods of mounting…any recommendations?

  You can buy the standard "back to back" seats from a catalog.  You can also make your own seat frames out of plywood, then take them to an upholstery shop to have them cover them in a good marine fabric.   3.  The hull  is that wierd avocado green color that was popular in the 70’s….and I was thinking of repainting it white inside and out (before carpeting)…where can I find info on painting fiberglass?

  A painted fiberglass hull looks OK for a while, but will look awful in a few years.  Buff the heck out of the hull to get some luster back and leave it be. Rod

Response:

Hi,    Sounds like you’re at the start of a lot of fun!    I bought Stinky with a similar mindset, and things have been pretty good so far. Hello! I’ve been thinking about buying a boat….ideally a project boat that I can work on during the off-season. Reasons being, a basket case will be cheaper (initially) and I just like working on things.  Heck, I’ve often thought that if I bought a brand-new, "chery" boat I’d be disappointed, ‘cuz there wouldn’t be much to do to it!!!

  Also: – It won’t be EXACTLY what you want. You can make a project boat into whatever you desire. – It won’t have YOUR signature. It’s VERY satisfying to look at a boat (or a part of it) and say "*I* did that!". – You’ll know exactly how it was put together, so that WHEN a problem occurs and you’re in the middle of nowhere, you will know how to fix it. With my aberrant mindset communicated, here’s the deal. I just found such a boat – a 16 foot fiberglass runabout with a 90 hp Evinrude….the hull’s in great shape and the engine’s ok….BUT…

   How do you know the hull’s in great shape? How are your fibreglassing skills? In particular, the transom may be rotted. 1.  The owner just put in new plywood decking and the interior’s gutted.  Where can I get info on proper installation of new carpeting?

   More data to point to a rotten transom – if the floorboards were rotten, the transom probably is too. 2.  New or good, used seats…methods of mounting…any recommendations?

   I got a couple of swivel seats from Canadian Tire for $60 each. Hourston wanted $600 each for the replacement sleeper-seats.    They’re a bit light and poorly built, but they look great and feel OK. I re-did the wooden pedestals that the sleeper-seats were on and bolted the swivel-seats directly onto them. I’ll post pictures when I’m done (still have to paint the floor – I decided against carpetting). 3.  The hull  is that wierd avocado green color that was popular in the 70’s….and I was thinking of repainting it white inside and out (before carpeting)…where can I find info on painting fiberglass? 4.  I can hold my own when it comes to mechanickin’…but I’m new to outboard engines…..I want to know all I can about them before putting the boat in the water.  Any recommendations on that?? Like I said, the boat’s in fine condition and the price is right ($500, trailer included!!), and she’ll be a looker as well as a runner with a little TLC…all I need is to be steered in the right direction!

   Check out the book "Runabout Restoration" (donno the author – try Amazon Books online). It has lots on how to restore a fibreglass runabout. Also, get the shop manual for the engine – it should tell you all you need to know about the engine, lower unit, etc.    Hope you have as much fun as I’m having with Stinky! Lloyd Sumpter "Stinky" Fibrecraft 14 – http://www.members.home.net/lsumpter/boats/stinky.html

Response:

Hello! I’ve been thinking about buying a boat….ideally a project boat that I can work on during the off-season. Reasons being, a basket case will be cheaper (initially) and I just like working on things.  Heck, I’ve often thought that if I bought a brand-new, "chery" boat I’d be disappointed, ‘cuz there wouldn’t be much to do to it!!! With my aberrant mindset communicated, here’s the deal. I just found such a boat – a 16 foot fiberglass runabout with a 90 hp Evinrude….the hull’s in great shape and the engine’s ok….BUT… 1.  The owner just put in new plywood decking and the interior’s gutted.  Where can I get info on proper installation of new carpeting? 2.  New or good, used seats…methods of mounting…any recommendations?   3.  The hull  is that wierd avocado green color that was popular in the 70’s….and I was thinking of repainting it white inside and out (before carpeting)…where can I find info on painting fiberglass? 4.  I can hold my own when it comes to mechanickin’…but I’m new to outboard engines…..I want to know all I can about them before putting the boat in the water.  Any recommendations on that?? Like I said, the boat’s in fine condition and the price is right ($500, trailer included!!), and she’ll be a looker as well as a runner with a little TLC…all I need is to be steered in the right direction! Many, many thanks in advance!!!! Dave

Response:

Question:

To Tax preparers/Tax accountants I need some help getting some data for my WEB site. My site conerns the profitability of Amway and Quixtar distributorships.  I have a hard time getting good data from active distributors about profit, if any they are making. If you prepare returns for Amway/Quixtar distributors could any of you share just the Schedule C numbers of distributors for whom you do Taxes?  I don’t want any persoanl data just the numbers.  In this way you should not be divulging any personal information, only numerical fact. As some distiributors profit from the sale of books, tapes and seminars it would be nice to know as a fraction of gross income what this represents. Thanks, Scott http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html Before you buy.

Response:

If you prepare returns for Amway/Quixtar distributors could any of you share just the Schedule C numbers of distributors for whom you do Taxes?  I don’t want any persoanl data just the numbers.  In this way you should not be divulging any personal information, only numerical fact.

I suspect that even in that "sanitized" form, such disclosure would violate federal law against the unauthorized disclosure/use of tax return information.  That’s to say nothing about the potential state board problems that CPAs might get into, or the general legal liability due to the expectation of confidentiality.

Response:

Question:

Accounting Industry Consolidator Centerprise Withdraws IPO Chicago (Nov. 10, 1999) — Accounting industry consolidator Centerprise withdrew its long-awaited initial public offering shortly after the IPO received regulatory approval. http://www.electronicaccountant.com/news/111099_1.htm Public may be smarter than some folks think they are. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://jim.hudspeth.com

Response:

Public may be smarter than some folks think they are.

What I think it shows right now is that the investment community isn’t real sure this whole consolidation idea is going to be the wave of the future.  And, frankly, based on what’s been released about performance of the various consolidators, it still seems the jury is out on how well the concept really works. Now we can’t put too much faith in the judgement of the investor community–this is the same group that rewards Internet start-ups for losing money (the more they lose, the higher the stock price goes) <grin.

Response:

Question:

Hi…. Can anyone tell me what if any bad experiences you have had with synthetics?  (other than the high price?). I put Mobil 1 10-30 in my 350 (corvette) and would like to talk to folks who have used this oil for a long time and can tell me what long term experiences you had? Any problems? thanks, Charlie

Response:

Hi…. Can anyone tell me what if any bad experiences you have had with synthetics?  (other than the high price?). I put Mobil 1 10-30 in my 350 (corvette) and would like to talk to folks who have used this oil for a long time and can tell me what long term experiences you had? Any problems?

I’ve used synthetic oil in virtually all my engines (car, motorcycle, 4-stroke outboard, lawn mower) for 20+ years. without a problem.  I prefer Amsoil, but use Castrol Syntec when I can’t find Amsoil.

Response:

I’ve been using Mobil 1 in both my cars (90 Celica and 93 Vision TSi) for a while now.  I did talk to a couple of guys who race in some sedan class at work and are pretty much ‘into’ engines and the like, far more than myself.  Their advice was to let the engine ‘wear-in’ before switching to synthetic, i.e. let the piston rings mate with the cylinder wall etc.  I waited about 18000 miles on both cars but I’m sure you can start earlier. Another piece of advice of which I have no supporting evidence is once you switch, don’t go back to regular oil. BTW Jiffy lube offer a synthetic oil change (Mobil 1)for $49.95  for those of you not handy with an oil filter wrench.  It’s actually not too bad a deal. Steve Gardner The only true Cockney in Abingdon, MD Longing for someone to import the Escort Cossie!

Response:

Another piece of advice of which I have no supporting evidence is once you switch, don’t go back to regular oil.

Why not?! BTW Jiffy lube offer a synthetic oil change (Mobil 1)for $49.95 for those of you not handy with an oil filter wrench.  It’s actually not too bad a deal.

I dodn’t want to pick on you but let’s do some cost accounting: New oil filter+gasket washer = $6 Oil disposal fee = $0.50 Total = $27.00 I know that this is a very rough estimate, but I made some prices a little too high on purpose (oil filter and washers are cheaper for most cars, labor+overhead rate should be lower in a business like that). Moreover, all prices are retail, Jiffy Lube probably pays a lot less for supplies So, they probably make at least $20 profit (maybe more, could be as high as $30-$35) on each synthetic oil change. Vlad. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steve Gardner The only true Cockney in Abingdon, MD Longing for someone to import the Escort Cossie!

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I dodn’t want to pick on you but let’s do some cost accounting:

I don’t dispute your math, but a regular oil change at JL in Baltimore is 27 bucks.  Looking at it from that angle the synthetic change ain’t bad. Steve Gardner The only true Cockney in Abingdon, MD

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:   : I dodn’t want to pick on you but let’s do some cost : accounting: :   : I don’t dispute your math, but a regular oil change at JL : in Baltimore is 27 bucks.  Looking at it from that angle : the synthetic change ain’t bad. :   : Steve Gardner : The only true Cockney in Abingdon, MD Well, that should be an incentive to do it yourself!

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Well, that should be an incentive to do it yourself!

Have you ever tried to FIND the oil filter on a Chrysler LH.  I dont have the luxury of a pit in my garage, and I live on a hill. s1 Steve Gardner

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