Question:

This might be a question for peanutman, but all suggestions useful 1)  Does anyone have a GI and carb count for redskin peanuts? 2)  Is there a reliable national retailer who stocks redskin peanuts all year round?  They are widely available at christmas but disappear along with the tinsel. I suppose I can manage whiteskins as an inferior second choice… VBH Dx(17-Oct-03) : A1c 10.2 : 102Kg Latest : A1c: 7.7 : 92Kg : Met 3×500 — Composed with Newz Crawler 1.6 http://www.newzcrawler.com/

Response:

GI for "peanuts " in general is given as 21 in Mendoza’s (?)   GI guide. No distinction made between differnt types. But carb content, 18%, might need accounting for.

Response:

Per 100g:      Cal:      574                     Carb:    18.3g                     Prot:     17.5g                     Fat:       4.8g                     Fib:       3.8 Try www.goodnessdirect.co.uk Cheers PeterB

Response:

This might be a question for peanutman, but all suggestions useful 1)  Does anyone have a GI and carb count for redskin peanuts? 2)  Is there a reliable national retailer who stocks redskin peanuts all year round?  They are widely available at christmas but disappear along with the tinsel. I suppose I can manage whiteskins as an inferior second choice… VBH Dx(17-Oct-03) : A1c 10.2 : 102Kg Latest : A1c: 7.7 : 92Kg : Met 3×500

Went to Morrison’s earlier today and they had  redskin peanuts. Don’t know if they do them all year though. John.

Response:

This might be a question for peanutman, but all suggestions useful 1)  Does anyone have a GI and carb count for redskin peanuts? 2)  Is there a reliable national retailer who stocks redskin peanuts all

year round?  They are widely available at christmas but disappear along with the tinsel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I suppose I can manage whiteskins as an inferior second choice… VBH Dx(17-Oct-03) : A1c 10.2 : 102Kg Latest : A1c: 7.7 : 92Kg : Met 3×500 Went to Morrison’s earlier today and they had  redskin peanuts. Don’t know if they do them all year though. John. Are you guys talking about "Spanish Peanuts"? Sleepy You can tell those republicans sure do like the poor folks, They just keep helping create more and more of them!

Spanish?  no idea.  But plain peanuts are usually described as whiteskins or redskins.  Redskins taste slightly sweeter and are generally softer. Whiteskins are used for salted, dry roasted etc I think because they are larger.  However, redskins always have the skin on which is handy since a good proportion of them is then fibre. I’ll give morrisons a try John, thanks for that.  It rings a very old bell that they used to sell them all year round.  The rest of the supermarkets just have them at christmas and not bother for the rest of the year, it seems. Incidentally, for anyone in Nottingham I seem to recall a very good nuts/fruit/etc stall on the first floor of victoria indoor market that had a wide range and was nice & cheap.  Take your non-dm family members for the choc-coated and yog-coated section. VBH (T2) Dx(17-Oct-03)  : A1c 10.2 : 102Kg Latest                 : A1c: 7.7 : 92Kg : Met 3×500

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This might be a question for peanutman, but all suggestions useful 1)  Does anyone have a GI and carb count for redskin peanuts? 2)  Is there a reliable national retailer who stocks redskin peanuts all year round?  They are widely available at christmas but disappear along with the tinsel. I suppose I can manage whiteskins as an inferior second choice… VBH Dx(17-Oct-03) : A1c 10.2 : 102Kg Latest : A1c: 7.7 : 92Kg : Met 3×500 Went to Morrison’s earlier today and they had  redskin peanuts. Don’t know if they do them all year though. John.

Are you guys talking about "Spanish Peanuts"? Sleepy You can tell those republicans sure do like the poor folks, They just keep helping create more and more of them!

Response:

Question:

Nearing three weeks into the diet, and about 10 pounds lighter, I’ve noticing my energy increase now almost daily.  I thank that mostly to my 30 minutes per day on the eliptical machine. Anway, today I decided that I wanted to play baseball, as I did when I was younger.   Kids from all around would gather and we would play for hours, not really keeping score, just playing.  Daily I see adults playing soccer in the field near my home, but never have I seen baseball.  I walked to the empty park with bat, gloves, and balls in hand, then started pitching one of the balls at a portion of the fence. Within about 10 minutes, I had a small audience, and some minutes later one of the spectators decided to ask if he could try hitting the balls as I threw them.  Gatefully, I accepted, I also told the two others who were watching that they could play as well. The four of us took turns hitting and pitching for a while, then others started appearing, carrying gloves that looked just as unused as mine.  By the end of the afternoon, there were 12 of us playing baseball.  12 adults, playing as if we were children again.  We even have plans to meet again next weekend. I never thought that a diet would bring so much enjoyment in to my life, I know it’s only been a short time, but I can see definate changes. Dan – 305/295/220

Response:

You are now feeling better mostly because you are eating better and less, as well as exercising. Not as much due to your weight loss.

I agree, but I attribute everything to the diet (excercise, eating better, etc.)  I thought that "dieting" was going to be a difficult task, not something that I would have fun with.  I’m with you, I can’t wait to see more. Care to share what is your diet?

It’s a simple diet, keep the calories under 2000, and exercise every day. The eliptical machine gets a 30 minute aerobic visit every day.  Do some stretching, pushups, crunches, lift the dumbells for a bit.  I’ve also actively looked to get outside and do something, rolerblading, basketball, baseball, putt-putt – anything… For food, I’ve been avoiding McDonalds (my decided downfall), and finding "leaner" alternatives to my usual diet.  Four days a week I was eating; 2 sausage-egg-cheese biscuits, a hashbrown, and a medium coke for breakfast (1500 calories).  That’s nearly 2 pounds a week in calories saved alone.  I also switched coke for diet coke, I save another pound of calories there (5 cans a day).  I’ve been reducing the amount of coke products in general as well.  Also, drinking coffee, black, instead of 2 cream, 2 sugar. I was flirting with 300 lbs for almost two years, that horrible diet was keeping my weight basically even.  Last week, I ate 14,766 calories (slipped a bit Saturday night with wine), and I burned an estimated 23,808 calories. The 9500 saved from the "No McD’s no Coke" diet, remarkably is the difference. Dan – 305/295/220

Response:

I never thought that a diet would bring so much enjoyment in to my life, I know it’s only been a short time, but I can see definate changes. Dan – 305/295/220

And once again a "journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step". Good for you…I wish you many just such happy days in your new way of life. — Patricia Florida-USA

Response:

It sounds like a great way to spend an afternoon and I would have loved to join in if I could physically have done so.

I’m sure that we would have loved to have you.  You know, watching, or better yet officiating burns calories too.  Besides, it’s about being outside and having fun.  Every little bit helps, right? Dan – 305/295/220

Response:

Um, I did not say that wine was bad. I do not like wine (I am a vodka person), but if you do, all the power to you. Actually my weight loss allowed me to resume drinking. When I was fat any alcohol made me feel terrible. Now I can actually enjoy it and get drunk without as much side effects, hangover etc. I still do not drink much, but I know that I can if I want.

Vodka is better than wine  I’ve spent a good amount of time in Russia, and had some remarkable Vodka’s.  My favorite is Russian Standard Platinum. Palm Bay Imports has the import rights, but they are not importing…  Now that I have been spoiled, it’s hard to drink the lesser stuff. Breakfast 2 cups cooked oatmeal, with sugar free "maple" syrup, 1 cup orange juice. 441 calories what do you mean by sugar free maple syrup? Is it basically high fructose corn syrup? Or what?

Cary’s Sugar Free Syrup, 30 calories for 1/4 cup.  Water, maple flavor, aspartame. Is there a good site for different recipes out there?  Before early this year I had never cooked for myself.  I’m afraid my knowledge of preparing food is pretty limited. no idea…

Maybe someone will know. Great progress so far.

 Thanks Dan – 305/295/220

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anway, today I decided that I wanted to play baseball, as I did when I was younger.   Kids from all around would gather and we would play for hours, not really keeping score, just playing.  Daily I see adults playing soccer in the field near my home, but never have I seen baseball.  I walked to the empty park with bat, gloves, and balls in hand, then started pitching one of the balls at a portion of the fence. Within about 10 minutes, I had a small audience, and some minutes later one of the spectators decided to ask if he could try hitting the balls as I threw them.  Gatefully, I accepted, I also told the two others who were watching that they could play as well. The four of us took turns hitting and pitching for a while, then others started appearing, carrying gloves that looked just as unused as mine.  By the end of the afternoon, there were 12 of us playing baseball.  12 adults, playing as if we were children again.  We even have plans to meet again next weekend. I never thought that a diet would bring so much enjoyment in to my life, I know it’s only been a short time, but I can see definate changes. Dan – 305/295/220

It sounds like a great way to spend an afternoon and I would have loved to join in if I could physically have done so.

Response:

Nearing three weeks into the diet, and about 10 pounds lighter, I’ve noticing my energy increase now almost daily.  I thank that mostly to my 30 minutes per day on the eliptical machine.

    I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed this post!  To me, this is why fitness is important – to be able to enjoy life and do those activities that we did when we were kids, or be able to learn new ones without too much pain.  I think playing is incredibly important!  Thanks, — LizB 198/194/140

Response:

It sounds like a great way to spend an afternoon and I would have loved to join in if I could physically have done so. I’m sure that we would have loved to have you.  You know, watching, or better yet officiating burns calories too.  Besides, it’s about being outside and having fun.  Every little bit helps, right? Dan – 305/295/220

Yes it does and I could have brought my digital camera and took pics.

Response:

Otherwise I think you have a very sensible diet. I also ate more or less what I wanted (except NO sugar and jo junk food at all) as long as it ket me under 2,000 calories.

Impressive, alot of will power there!  NO sugar and junk food, wow!  I have to occasionally treat myself.  For example Saturday night with the wine.  My goal is to burn 700 calories more than I eat, even Saturday, I still managed that goal (it was close).  My DMR, sticking to sub 2000 calorie days accounts for that 700 calorie a day deficit.  That makes the exercise more tolerable, knowing that every bit of effort I put into it, is getting rid of the fat. The ammount of food that you can eat at 2000 calories is amazing.  I imagine my one breakfast at McD’s accounting for 75% of those calories, then the coke accounting for the rest of them for the day. Today, here is what I’ve eaten. Breakfast 2 cups cooked oatmeal, with sugar free "maple" syrup, 1 cup orange juice. 441 calories Lunch 2 cups homemade vegetable soup w/ ground turkey. 1 can diet pepsi.  514 calories Snack 1 cup homemade vegetable soup w/ ground turkey.  1 can diet pepsi  257 calories Dinner 3 cups salad mix, 2 slices of american cheese, 1 package Starkist tuna, 4 tbsp fat free italian dressing. 1 can diet pepsi.  293 calories Overall, 1505 calories.  You can see that the friut & vegetable count is pretty high, I actually enjoy them.  I have about 500 calories to work with before going to bed, I may have another cup of soup.  To the casual observer, that may not look like much food, but I couldn’t eat all of the 2 cups of oatmeal.  2 cups of food is a pretty good amount. Is there a good site for different recipes out there?  Before early this year I had never cooked for myself.  I’m afraid my knowledge of preparing food is pretty limited. Dan – 305/295/220

Response:

Question:

    Satan is a liar and a expert at deceiving you to believe things like, I was born gay so it’s ok, being gay isn’t anything wrong, etc. etc. etc.. I would personally love and have searched scriptures trying to find a way to condone this woman divorcing her husband and marrying me and God saying it’s ok but the only Scripture that really applies is the story of David and Bathsheba.       You didn’t hire a hit man to take out her husband did you?  If not, then you had nothing to do with the worst part of that sort of scenario.

You said earlier: "NO one is perfect.  And James 2:10 makes it clear that no sin is worse than another." If that’s true, how can there be a "worst" part of the scenario?    It least I’m honest about what I read instead of trying to twist it all around.     MOST Episcopalians aren’t so nit-picking.  START with the fact that NO one is perfect.

No one is required to be perfect…….they are required to be repentant.      I don’t know what else you wrote in reply, it’s not worth sifting through everything to read your nonsense insults just because I don’t agree.     Cop-out.  Anything you perceive as an "insult" from me is in reality an accurate descriptor that you FIRST had to EARN.

A statement which makes clear you don’t know the difference between opinion and fact.  But we already knew that.     Find another post to harass besides me because there’s thousands.       In case you hadn’t noticed, YOU are the one perpetuating this dialogue.  I’ve only responded to you.

In case you hadn’t noticed, that makes you a participant in the perpetuation of the dialogue. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Our concern isn’t that gay people don’t have rights.       Bully for you!  Millions of gays have plenty of reason to disagree.     Our concern is that Gods churches throughout America are becoming polluted with many things.       Yeah.  Such as love.  Compassion. Tolerance.  Acceptance.   Fairness.  christian charity.  All that "pollution’ that’s so hard for BIGOTS to take.     Your gay bishop is just another turning point for potentially hundreds of future religious degrading changes.       Funny how bigots who don’t even REALIZE that they’re bigots perceive harmless advances in such a manner.    It must be inevitable because revelations is all about the sinful things man will and already has done.     Then look to Hitler… Pol Pot… Mao Tse-tung, Saddam Hussein, Al Qaida, and their ilk for that.  NOT to harmless gays who have sex with their partners in private.

Bill: "Homosexuality is not only a sin in God’s eyes… Craig: "Along with several million other things that people do… which is a matter between the "offender" and God……" That means you believe gay people are on a par with Hitler and the rest.

Response:

[ ... ]     I see no evidence that gays are doing anything sinful.     And if they ARE, it’s not doing any overt harm to others.  And THAT scenario would make it a PRIVATE matter between them and God, and NO business of ignorant and hateful bigots.    There are none who are more hate filled, bigoted or intolerant than homosexuals — you demonstrate that every time you post. Keep up the good work.    Thanks, Bill, and take a bow for the bang-up job you’re doing of showing what a clueless wonder you are — crossposting your whining to five different newsgroups, and failing to notice that Craig is likely straighter than you ever have been, or will be.   -PLH, small world…so am I

    And on top of all that, Bill’s so ignorant, he thinks that people who are seeking nothing more than equal rights are the bigots.  ROTFL!!!   He was born too late.  He’d have LOVED the segregationists!     It was certainly nice of him to provide all this additional evidence for the lurkers of how utterly stupid the hateful homophobes are.

Response:

Bill writes:     And if they ARE, it’s not doing any overt harm to others.  And THAT scenario would make it a PRIVATE matter between them and God, and NO business of ignorant and hateful bigots. There are none who are more hate filled, bigoted or intolerant than homosexuals — you demonstrate that every time you post. Keep up the good work.

Thanks, Bill, and take a bow for the bang-up job you’re doing of showing what a clueless wonder you are — crossposting your whining to five different newsgroups, and failing to notice that Craig is likely straighter than you ever have been, or will be.   -PLH, small world…so am I

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Satan is a liar and a expert at deceiving you to believe things like, I was born gay so it’s ok, being gay isn’t anything wrong, etc. etc. etc.. I would personally love and have searched scriptures trying to find a way to condone this woman divorcing her husband and marrying me and God saying it’s ok but the only Scripture that really applies is the story of David and Bathsheba.       You didn’t hire a hit man to take out her husband did you?  If not, then you had nothing to do with the worst part of that sort of scenario.    You said earlier:           "NO one is perfect.  And James 2:10 makes it clear that no         sin is worse than another."    If that’s true, how can there be a "worst" part of the scenario?

    Worst from the HUMAN standpoint.  There’s nothing worse than murdering a real person.    It least I’m honest about what I read instead of trying to twist it all around.     MOST Episcopalians aren’t so nit-picking.  START with the fact that NO one is perfect.     No one is required to be perfect…….they are required to be repentant.

     Good.  Then let the bgots repent of their mindless hatefulness. that’s be a GREAT start!      I don’t know what else you wrote in reply, it’s not worth sifting through everything to read your nonsense insults just because I don’t agree.     Cop-out.  Anything you perceive as an "insult" from me is in reality an accurate descriptor that you FIRST had to EARN.     A statement which makes clear you don’t know the difference between opinion and fact.  But we already knew that.

    Thanks for this demonstration of your abject ignorance.  It’s alays good for the lurkers to see that quality manifested by those who are intolerant bigots, who seek to curtail, limit, or destroy individual liberties.     Find another post to harass besides me because there’s thousands.       In case you hadn’t noticed, YOU are the one perpetuating this dialogue.  I’ve only responded to you.     In case you hadn’t noticed, that makes you a participant in the perpetuation of the dialogue.

     Fine.  But I still am ony RESPONDING.  Big difference beween that and desperately perpetuating a bigoted stance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Our concern isn’t that gay people don’t have rights.       Bully for you!  Millions of gays have plenty of reason to disagree.     Our concern is that Gods churches throughout America are becoming polluted with many things.       Yeah.  Such as love.  Compassion. Tolerance.  Acceptance.   Fairness.  christian charity.  All that "pollution’ that’s so hard for BIGOTS to take.     Your gay bishop is just another turning point for potentially hundreds of future religious degrading changes.       Funny how bigots who don’t even REALIZE that they’re bigots perceive harmless advances in such a manner.    It must be inevitable because revelations is all about the sinful things man will and already has done.     Then look to Hitler… Pol Pot… Mao Tse-tung, Saddam Hussein, Al Qaida, and their ilk for that.  NOT to harmless gays who have sex with their partners in private.

    In GOD’S eyes, according to the bible.  Unless you feel like callimg Him wrong.  OUR perceptions can be quite different, because these thing have varying degrees of impact upon us.       Bill: "Homosexuality is not only a sin in God’s eyes…       Craig: "Along with several million other things that people do…                 which is a matter between the "offender" and God……"     That means you believe gay people are on a par with Hitler and the rest.

     Wrong.  Since I see no evidence that gays are doing anything sinful.      And if they ARE, it’s not doing any overt harm to others.  And THAT scenario would make it a PRIVATE matter between them and God, and NO business of ignorant and hateful bigots.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!     I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystander completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures.     There’s no accounting for ignorance as profound as yours. You truly ARE befuddled.    More insults?     You haven’t seen ANY insults from me as yet.  I just call ‘em as I see ‘em.  You clearly are either one very ignorant, or one very befuddled, person.  Possibly both.     I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.     Not only do you have a vidid (and warped) imagination, you also confuse weaknesses with strengths.     I am very upset.      AWWwww-ww-ww-w-w-w-w.     Taunting me?     Nope.  LAUGHING at you.  Imagining a bigot’s being "upset" just because his intolerant agenda is rapidly circling the drain.  It doesn’t GET much funnier than that!     I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.     It does.  Jesus is God, and Jesus PRIME directive to His followers was for them to show love and compassion for their neighbors. The Episcopal Church just took a giant step in that direction. Values-wise, it demonstrated a giant step AWAY from mindless bigotry.     Lets get this straight, who started the name calling because you disagree with me?     You’re referring, I take it, to the accurate descriptors which I applied to you after you had first EARNED them beyond all possible shadow of a doubt?  THOSE "names?"     You started the name calling but I’m neither ignorant or a bigot. That’s just your opinion.     Your attitude and words have PROVEN you to be a bigot for SURE. And most bigots are pretty ignorant, or they couldn’t BE bigots. Bigotry is a totally unintelligent (and mindlessly hateful) attitude.      A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.     You misperceptions are duly noted.     A misconceptions only if I’m wrong and you can dispute the scriptures I’ll post for you, maybe your Bible doesn’t contain them or you don’t understand them.     My Bible contains MANY repetitions of Jesus’ prime directive: that we show love and compassion to our neighbors.  That’s good enough for me.  Tells me not to TRASH my neighbors… not to attempt to make their lives miserable… and not to seek to deny equal rights to anyone.    Better yet I’ll send you some translations and you can dispute them with whatever translation you are reading.     ALL translations contain that which I just described.  That is an overriding directive, as Jesus, Himself said.  Only ONE commandment is greater:  the one that we love God.    The bottom line here is your gay bishop is sexually immoral.     And YOU are NOT?     I’d better get on the horn to the guinness folks.  You evidently are the SECOND perfect person to walk the earth.     Try removing the yule log from your eye. <remaining silly TRIPE snipped <scriptural references snipped.  Explanation for that follows     The reason I deleted the scriptures you cited is covered above. NO one is perfect.  And James 2:10 makes it clear that no sin is worse than another.  Fortunately for us (and unfortunately for Him, considering what He went through), Jesus paid the price for all our sins, no matter what they were and are.  But to claim that redemption, we must accept Him as Lord.     I must assume you are gay because you fight very hard to make your point…     Wrong assumption.  I am a sensible, fair-minded, egalitarian ALLY of the homosexual community… just as tens of millions of other "straights" are.  There are probably more ALLIES than there are gays! And AS an egalitarian activist, you can COUNT on my fighting for their EQUAL rights just as hard and concertedly as I would if I *WERE* gay.    The straight world has tolerated a lot from the gay community.     ROTFL!!!!!     I’ve heard those same words before.  From the segregationists I battled 40 years ago.  The were always saying, "the whites have tolerated a lot from the [blacks]."  (They used the "N-word," of course.)     A reasonable and intelligent person does not "tolerate" anything from ANY group of people, whether they be blacks, gays, Hispanics, Catholics, Moslems, or stamp collectors.  An INTELLIGENT person doesn’t give a flying rat’s ass WHAT a person may happen to have in the way of characteristics or beliefs, as long as they are doing no overt harm to others with respect to it.  To the contrary, to INTELLIGENT people… people are PEOPLE.  And such things are trivial NON-issues. (BTW — none of this precludes a Christian from carrying out the Great Commission and spreading the gospel… to all who are RECEPTIVE to that.)    Gay marriage will be next.     GOOD!!!  It should have been legal all along.  It;s about time.     And I have YET to see any* person who WHINES about that, come up with a single way that this would do ANY harm to any heterosexual married couple.     Marriage was a institution for a man and woman.     Intolerantly.  It should always have been more inclusive.  As it IS now in Vermont, Switzerland, and Canada.  And soon WILL be throughout the USA, followed, probably, by the rest of the world (except, probably, for some of the more bigoted Arab nations), over the next few years.   And just a handful of years after that, people will look back on the former restrictions as we, today, look back on segregation… and wonder how such bigotry EVER could have prevailed.   …to allow same-sex marriages degrades the integrity of the sanctity of what marriage was intended from the beginning.      In a word:  Bullcrap!  It was degrading for so many people to be EXCLUDED from it for NO good reason.  NOTHING declares the validity of such an exclusion.    That’s not me saying that, it’s a vast majority of Christian people of all churches around the world.     A majority that very soon will become a smaller and smaller minority, fortunately.  Things are changing for the better at an accelerating pace. [ ... ]     You can argue being gay is from birth but everyone else knows it’s a choice fueled by sexual desires.     Actually, I couldn’t care less about the "why" of it.  That’s NONE of my business, and none of yours.  Whether a person is born gay or chooses to be so is totally irrelevant.    Even the animals know it.      Which explains, I suppose, the widespread homosexual orientation (homo- or bi-) that science has proven exists throughout most of the animal kingdom?  Nice try.  No cigar.     If [gay sex weren't] so discussing {sic!} I might be having homosexual relations.      Have you ever considered that THEY might regard the way WE have sex to be equally revolting?  But you don’t see them WHINING about that, or trying to make our lives miserable over it.     Heck I’m sleeping with a married woman, and it’s by choice not because I was born to commit adultery.  We are born in sin, it’s our choice to participate or try to follow Gods words.      A very interesting admission!  You ARE aware, then, are you not, that this puts you in the SAME jeopardy of hellfire that you are claiming the gays face?  Give me one good reason why I should NOT call you a hypocrite for doing that?     I’m a sinner and admit it, your gay bishop is a sinner and a liar even to himself and that’s not a religious leader.      Hmmm.  I don’t recall anything, Biblical or otherwise, that indicates that only PERFECT people can be bishops.      I guarantee you have some motive for backing this gay bishop outside of trying to follow Gods words.     Yeah.  Good upbringing.  My parents taught me to be a FAIR person, and to stand up for others when thugs are trying to beat them up.      What is it, are you gay, do you commit sodomy either oral or anal or do you just

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Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!     I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystander completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures.     There’s no accounting for ignorance as profound as yours. You truly ARE befuddled.    More insults?     You haven’t seen ANY insults from me as yet.  I just call ‘em as I see ‘em.  You clearly are either one very ignorant, or one very befuddled, person.  Possibly both.     I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.     Not only do you have a vidid (and warped) imagination, you also confuse weaknesses with strengths.     I am very upset.      AWWwww-ww-ww-w-w-w-w.     Taunting me?     Nope.  LAUGHING at you.  Imagining a bigot’s being "upset" just because his intolerant agenda is rapidly circling the drain.  It doesn’t GET much funnier than that!     I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.     It does.  Jesus is God, and Jesus PRIME directive to His followers was for them to show love and compassion for their neighbors. The Episcopal Church just took a giant step in that direction. Values-wise, it demonstrated a giant step AWAY from mindless bigotry.     Lets get this straight, who started the name calling because you disagree with me?     You’re referring, I take it, to the accurate descriptors which I applied to you after you had first EARNED them beyond all possible shadow of a doubt?  THOSE "names?"     You started the name calling but I’m neither ignorant or a bigot. That’s just your opinion.     Your attitude and words have PROVEN you to be a bigot for SURE. And most bigots are pretty ignorant, or they couldn’t BE bigots. Bigotry is a totally unintelligent (and mindlessly hateful) attitude.      A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.     You misperceptions are duly noted.     A misconceptions only if I’m wrong and you can dispute the scriptures I’ll post for you, maybe your Bible doesn’t contain them or you don’t understand them.     My Bible contains MANY repetitions of Jesus’ prime directive:  that we show love and compassion to our neighbors.  That’s good enough for me.  Tells me not to TRASH my neighbors… not to attempt to make their lives miserable… and not to seek to deny equal rights to anyone.    Better yet I’ll send you some translations and you can dispute them with whatever translation you are reading.     ALL translations contain that which I just described.  That is an overriding directive, as Jesus, Himself said.  Only ONE commandment is greater:  the one that we love God.    The bottom line here is your gay bishop is sexually immoral.     And YOU are NOT?     I’d better get on the horn to the guinness folks.  You evidently are the SECOND perfect person to walk the earth.     Try removing the yule log from your eye. <remaining silly TRIPE snipped <scriptural references snipped.  Explanation for that follows     The reason I deleted the scriptures you cited is covered above.  NO one is perfect.  And James 2:10 makes it clear that no sin is worse than another.  Fortunately for us (and unfortunately for Him, considering what He went through), Jesus paid the price for all our sins, no matter what they were and are.  But to claim that redemption, we must accept Him as Lord.     I must assume you are gay because you fight very hard to make your point…     Wrong assumption.  I am a sensible, fair-minded, egalitarian ALLY of the homosexual community… just as tens of millions of other "straights" are.  There are probably more ALLIES than there are gays!   And AS an egalitarian activist, you can COUNT on my fighting for their EQUAL rights just as hard and concertedly as I would if I *WERE* gay.    The straight world has tolerated a lot from the gay community.     ROTFL!!!!!     I’ve heard those same words before.  From the segregationists I battled 40 years ago.  The were always saying, "the whites have tolerated a lot from the [blacks]."  (They used the "N-word," of course.)     A reasonable and intelligent person does not "tolerate" anything from ANY group of people, whether they be blacks, gays, Hispanics, Catholics, Moslems, or stamp collectors.  An INTELLIGENT person doesn’t give a flying rat’s ass WHAT a person may happen to have in the way of characteristics or beliefs, as long as they are doing no overt harm to others with respect to it.  To the contrary, to INTELLIGENT people… people are PEOPLE.  And such things are trivial NON-issues.   (BTW — none of this precludes a Christian from carrying out the Great Commission and spreading the gospel… to all who are RECEPTIVE to that.)    Gay marriage will be next.     GOOD!!!  It should have been legal all along.  It;s about time.     And I have YET to see any* person who WHINES about that, come up with a single way that this would do ANY harm to any heterosexual married couple.     Marriage was a institution for a man and woman.     Intolerantly.  It should always have been more inclusive.  As it IS now in Vermont, Switzerland, and Canada.  And soon WILL be throughout the USA, followed, probably, by the rest of the world (except, probably, for some of the more bigoted Arab nations), over the next few years.   And just a handful of years after that, people will look back on the former restrictions as we, today, look back on segregation… and wonder how such bigotry EVER could have prevailed.   …to allow same-sex marriages degrades the integrity of the sanctity of what marriage was intended from the beginning.      In a word:  Bullcrap!  It was degrading for so many people to be EXCLUDED from it for NO good reason.  NOTHING declares the validity of such an exclusion.    That’s not me saying that, it’s a vast majority of Christian people of all churches around the world.     A majority that very soon will become a smaller and smaller minority, fortunately.  Things are changing for the better at an accelerating pace. [ ... ]     You can argue being gay is from birth but everyone else knows it’s a choice fueled by sexual desires.     Actually, I couldn’t care less about the "why" of it.  That’s NONE of my business, and none of yours.  Whether a person is born gay or chooses to be so is totally irrelevant.    Even the animals know it.      Which explains, I suppose, the widespread homosexual orientation (homo- or bi-) that science has proven exists throughout most of the animal kingdom?  Nice try.  No cigar.     If [gay sex weren't] so discussing {sic!} I might be having homosexual relations.      Have you ever considered that THEY might regard the way WE have sex to be equally revolting?  But you don’t see them WHINING about that, or trying to make our lives miserable over it.     Heck I’m sleeping with a married woman, and it’s by choice not because I was born to commit adultery.  We are born in sin, it’s our choice to participate or try to follow Gods words.      A very interesting admission!  You ARE aware, then, are you not, that this puts you in the SAME jeopardy of hellfire that you are claiming the gays face?  Give me one good reason why I should NOT call you a hypocrite for doing that?     I’m a sinner and admit it, your gay bishop is a sinner and a liar even to himself and that’s not a religious leader.      Hmmm.  I don’t recall anything, Biblical or otherwise, that indicates that only PERFECT people can be bishops.      I guarantee you have some motive for backing this gay bishop outside of trying to follow Gods words.     Yeah.  Good upbringing.  My parents taught me to be a FAIR person, and to stand up for others when thugs are trying to beat them up.      What is it, are you gay, do you commit sodomy either oral or anal or do you just want the approval of the church to do so in the event you would like to?      NONE of the above.  Human rights are my business.  The things you are whining about are NO one else’s business that the individual’s (or their consenting partners), case-by-case.    There’s something driving you at least I’m honest about my life.     Yep.  The same thing that drove MLK, Jr. and ALL other egalitarians. We have NO use for

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Response:

    ALL translations contain that which I just described.  That is an overriding directive, as Jesus, Himself said.  Only ONE commandment is greater:  the one that we love God.

To begin with, there is no "prime directive."  There are two anything.  God does not contradict himself. The love that God talks about isn’t that teenager feel good love that you are talking about. Jesus’ words about sin aren’t watered down by his explanation about what those two commandments mean.  If you doubt that, read his words to the seven churches in Revelation.    The bottom line here is your gay bishop is sexually immoral.       And YOU are NOT?     I’d better get on the horn to the guinness folks.  You evidently are the SECOND perfect person to walk the earth.     Try removing the yule log from your eye. <remaining silly TRIPE snipped <scriptural references snipped.  Explanation for that follows     The reason I deleted the scriptures you cited is covered above.

Get off it.  The reason you deleted them is because you don’t want to face the fact that your opinions are not backed up by Scripture.  NO one is perfect.  And James 2:10 makes it clear that no sin is worse than another.

No it doesn’t.  Even if true, any pastor who is unrepentant needs to remove himself from the pulpit.  Fortunately for us (and unfortunately for him, considering what he went through), Jesus paid the price for all our sins, no matter what they were and are.  But to claim that redemption, we must accept Him as Lord.

He didn’t give us license to continue to sin. [ ... ]     I must assume you are gay because you fight very hard to make your point…     Wrong assumption.  I am a sensible, fair-minded, egalitarian ALLY of the homosexual community… just as tens of millions of other "straights" are.  There are probably more ALLIES than there are gays!  And AS an egalitarian activist, you can COUNT on my fighting for their EQUAL rights just as hard and concertedly as I would if I *WERE* gay.

What exactly do you do to fight for the rights of gays?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re not "of the Episcopal Church" then what are you doing here? Answer: trolling. I don’t see why persons of other denominations should be prohibited from expressing opinions about recent events in our church, or why persons who disagree with you are necessarily "trolls." Charles Hohenstein Boycott French products! http://www.FranceStinks.com/ http://www.pavefrance.com/blog/

 it goes along with all those rights people have Craig is fighting for except he’s only fighting for a gay persons right and only agreeing with people that condone it.  I have no right to read this newsgroup because the Episcopal church Craig belongs to is tolerant of everyone as long as they agree with him.  It should be alt.religion.christian.episcopal.Craig.viewsonly I have friends that are gay, that doesn’t mean I agree with his lifestyle or go over to be sodomized occasionally. Craig needs to practice the tolerance he preaches.

Response:

 Bottom line, do you use that language in your church oh mighty gay rights advocate?  You made several remarks about my intelligence in most of your replies then you tell me what a intelligent person doesn’t do like being a bigot against Muslims and blacks.  You called me a bigot also.  Just why would you babble about people of intelligence aren’t bigots against groups if you weren’t talking to or about me?  Is it just more nonsense babbling? Answer, yes! As for a gay persons rights, that’s not a problem to me.  A gay person has every opportunity and legal right in America that I have.  The only rights they don’t have are some of religious rights like marriage and until the Episcopal church approved it, openly teaching and openly expressing gay lifestyles.  I don’t see living a life in sin and teaching to avoid sin without contradiction.  About 13 years ago I was a teacher in our local church.  I was living a impeccable life and felt God leading me while teaching.  The past 13 years I have strayed seriously strayed.  I have been approached to teach but refused because of my adulterous lifestyle.  I am not worthy at this time to teach.  A similar situation happened a few years back the preacher in our church was having a adulterous relationship with another woman.  When this came out he was ask to leave because how can a man be a man of God and not keep Gods commandments whether it’s the top 10 or others written in stories or parables for the benefit of teaching us how to live.  For those saved during his tenure questions remain in their minds if they were saved because this man wasn’t sincere.  Even though being saved is between one and God having this man teaching brought doubts in their minds. Doubts are there because Satan tries to make these people stop Gods will. Satan is everywhere I know Satan when I experience him in my thoughts every day.  Satan is a liar and a expert at deceiving you to believe things like, I was born gay so it’s ok, being gay isn’t anything wrong, etc. etc. etc.. I would personally love and have searched scriptures trying to find a way to condone this woman divorcing her husband and marrying me and God saying it’s ok but the only Scripture that really applies is the story of David and Bathsheba.  It least I’m honest about what I read instead of trying to twist it all around.   I don’t know what else you wrote in reply, it’s not worth sifting through everything to read your nonsense insults just because I don’t agree.  Find another post to harass besides me because there’s thousands.  Our concern isn’t that gay people don’t have rights.  Our concern is that Gods churches throughout America are becoming polluted with many things.  Your gay bishop is just another turning point for potentially hundreds of future religious degrading changes.  It must be inevitable because revelations is all about the sinful things man will and already has done. I guess I would just like to think I can delay the destruction of the world a few years so my grandchildren can have a chance to be born and saved.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!     I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures.     There’s no accounting for ignorance as profound as yours. You truly ARE befuddled.    More insults?     You haven’t seen ANY insults from me as yet.  I just call ‘em as I see ‘em.  You clearly are either one very ignorant, or one very befuddled, person.  Possibly both.     I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.     Not only do you have a vidid (and warped) imagination, you also confuse weaknesses with strengths.     I am very upset.      AWWwww-ww-ww-w-w-w-w.     Taunting me?     Nope.  LAUGHING at you.  Imagining a bigot’s being "upset" just because his intolerant agenda is rapidly circling the drain.  It doesn’t GET much funnier than that!     I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.     It does.  Jesus is God, and Jesus PRIME directive to His followers was for them to show love and compassion for their neighbors. The Episcopal Church just took a giant step in that direction. Values-wise, it demonstrated a giant step AWAY from mindless bigotry.     Lets get this straight, who started the name calling because you disagree with me?     You’re referring, I take it, to the accurate descriptors which I applied to you after you had first EARNED them beyond all possible shadow of a doubt?  THOSE "names?"     You started the name calling but I’m neither ignorant or a bigot. That’s just your opinion.     Your attitude and words have PROVEN you to be a bigot for SURE. And most bigots are pretty ignorant, or they couldn’t BE bigots. Bigotry is a totally unintelligent (and mindlessly hateful) attitude.      A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.     You misperceptions are duly noted.     A misconceptions only if I’m wrong and you can dispute the scriptures I’ll post for you, maybe your Bible doesn’t contain them or you don’t understand them.     My Bible contains MANY repetitions of Jesus’ prime directive:  that we show love and compassion to our neighbors.  That’s good enough for me.  Tells me not to TRASH my neighbors… not to attempt to make their lives miserable… and not to seek to deny equal rights to anyone.    Better yet I’ll send you some translations and you can dispute them with whatever translation you are reading.     ALL translations contain that which I just described.  That is an overriding directive, as Jesus, Himself said.  Only ONE commandment is greater:  the one that we love God.    The bottom line here is your gay bishop is sexually immoral.     And YOU are NOT?     I’d better get on the horn to the guinness folks.  You evidently are the SECOND perfect person to walk the earth.     Try removing the yule log from your eye. <remaining silly TRIPE snipped <scriptural references snipped.  Explanation for that follows     The reason I deleted the scriptures you cited is covered above.  NO one is perfect.  And James 2:10 makes it clear that no sin is worse than another.  Fortunately for us (and unfortunately for him, considering what he went through), Jesus paid the price for all our sins, no matter what they were and are.  But to claim that redemption, we must accept Him as Lord. [ ... ]     I must assume you are gay because you fight very hard to make your point…     Wrong assumption.  I am a sensible, fair-minded, egalitarian ALLY of the homosexual community… just as tens of millions of other "straights" are.  There are probably more ALLIES than there are gays!  And AS an egalitarian activist, you can COUNT on my fighting for their EQUAL rights just as hard and concertedly as I would if I *WERE* gay. [ ... ]    The straight world has tolerated a lot from the gay community.     ROTFL!!!!!     I’ve heard those same words before.  From the segregationists I battled 40 years ago.  The were always saying, "the whites have tolerated a lot from the [blacks]."  (They used the "N-word," of course.)     A reasonable and intelligent person does not "tolerate" anything from ANY group of people, whether they be blacks, gays, Hispanics, Catholics, Moslems, or stamp collectors.  An INTELLIGENT person doesn’t give a flying rat’s ass WHAT a person may happen to have in the way of characteristics or beliefs, as long as they are doing no overt harm to others with respect to it.  To the contrary, to INTELLIGENT people… people are PEOPLE.  And such things are trivial NON-issues.  (BTW — none of this precludes a Christian from carrying out the Great Commission and spreading the gospel… to all who are RECEPTIVE to that.)    Gay marriage will be next.     GOOD!!!  It should have been legal all along.  It;s about time.     And I have YET to see any* person who WHINES about that, come up with a single way that this would do ANY harm to any heterosexual married couple.     Marriage was a institution for a man and woman.     Intolerantly.  It should always have been more inclusive.  As it IS now in Vermont, Switzerland, and Canada.  And soon WILL be throughout the USA, followed, probably, by the rest of the world (except, probably, for some of the more bigoted Arab nations), over the next few years. And just a handful of years after that, people will look back on the former

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Response:

If you’re not "of the Episcopal Church" then what are you doing here? Answer: trolling.

I don’t see why persons of other denominations should be prohibited from expressing opinions about recent events in our church, or why persons who disagree with you are necessarily "trolls." Charles Hohenstein Boycott French products! http://www.FranceStinks.com/ http://www.pavefrance.com/blog/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!     I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures.     There’s no accounting for ignorance as profound as yours.   You truly ARE befuddled.    More insults?     You haven’t seen ANY insults from me as yet.  I just call ‘em as I see ‘em.  You clearly are either one very ignorant, or one very befuddled, person.  Possibly both.     I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.     Not only do you have a vidid (and warped) imagination, you also confuse weaknesses with strengths.     I am very upset.      AWWwww-ww-ww-w-w-w-w.     Taunting me?     Nope.  LAUGHING at you.  Imagining a bigot’s being "upset" just because his intolerant agenda is rapidly circling the drain.  It doesn’t GET much funnier than that!     I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.     It does.  Jesus is God, and Jesus PRIME directive to His followers was for them to show love and compassion for their neighbors.   The Episcopal Church just took a giant step in that direction. Values-wise, it demonstrated a giant step AWAY from mindless bigotry.     Lets get this straight, who started the name calling because you disagree with me?     You’re referring, I take it, to the accurate descriptors which I applied to you after you had first EARNED them beyond all possible shadow of a doubt?  THOSE "names?"     You started the name calling but I’m neither ignorant or a bigot. That’s just your opinion.     Your attitude and words have PROVEN you to be a bigot for SURE. And most bigots are pretty ignorant, or they couldn’t BE bigots.  Bigotry is a totally unintelligent (and mindlessly hateful) attitude.      A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.     You misperceptions are duly noted.     A misconceptions only if I’m wrong and you can dispute the scriptures I’ll post for you, maybe your Bible doesn’t contain them or you don’t understand them.     My Bible contains MANY repetitions of Jesus’ prime directive:  that we show love and compassion to our neighbors.  That’s good enough for me.  Tells me not to TRASH my neighbors… not to attempt to make their lives miserable… and not to seek to deny equal rights to anyone.    Better yet I’ll send you some translations and you can dispute them with whatever translation you are reading.     ALL translations contain that which I just described.  That is an overriding directive, as Jesus, Himself said.  Only ONE commandment is greater:  the one that we love God.    The bottom line here is your gay bishop is sexually immoral.     And YOU are NOT?     I’d better get on the horn to the guinness folks.  You evidently are the SECOND perfect person to walk the earth.     Try removing the yule log from your eye. <remaining silly TRIPE snipped <scriptural references snipped.  Explanation for that follows     The reason I deleted the scriptures you cited is covered above.  NO one is perfect.  And James 2:10 makes it clear that no sin is worse than another.  Fortunately for us (and unfortunately for him, considering what he went through), Jesus paid the price for all our sins, no matter what they were and are.  But to claim that redemption, we must accept Him as Lord. [ ... ]     I must assume you are gay because you fight very hard to make your point…     Wrong assumption.  I am a sensible, fair-minded, egalitarian ALLY of the homosexual community… just as tens of millions of other "straights" are.  There are probably more ALLIES than there are gays!  And AS an egalitarian activist, you can COUNT on my fighting for their EQUAL rights just as hard and concertedly as I would if I *WERE* gay. [ ... ]    The straight world has tolerated a lot from the gay community.     ROTFL!!!!!     I’ve heard those same words before.  From the segregationists I battled 40 years ago.  The were always saying, "the whites have tolerated a lot from the [blacks]."  (They used the "N-word," of course.)     A reasonable and intelligent person does not "tolerate" anything from ANY group of people, whether they be blacks, gays, Hispanics, Catholics, Moslems, or stamp collectors.  An INTELLIGENT person doesn’t give a flying rat’s ass WHAT a person may happen to have in the way of characteristics or beliefs, as long as they are doing no overt harm to others with respect to it.  To the contrary, to INTELLIGENT people… people are PEOPLE.  And such things are trivial NON-issues.  (BTW — none of this precludes a Christian from carrying out the Great Commission and spreading the gospel… to all who are RECEPTIVE to that.)    Gay marriage will be next.     GOOD!!!  It should have been legal all along.  It;s about time.     And I have YET to see any* person who WHINES about that, come up with a single way that this would do ANY harm to any heterosexual married couple.     Marriage was a institution for a man and woman.     Intolerantly.  It should always have been more inclusive.  As it IS now in Vermont, Switzerland, and Canada.  And soon WILL be throughout the USA, followed, probably, by the rest of the world (except, probably, for some of the more bigoted Arab nations), over the next few years.  And just a handful of years after that, people will look back on the former restrictions as we, today, look back on segregation… and wonder how such bigotry EVER could have prevailed.   …to allow same-sex marriages degrades the integrity of the sanctity of what marriage was intended from the beginning.      In a word:  Bullcrap!  It was degrading for so many people to be EXCLUDED from it for NO good reason.  NOTHING declares the validity of such an exclusion.    That’s not me saying that, it’s a vast majority of Christian people of all churches around the world.     A majority that very soon will become a smaller and smaller minority, fortunately.  Things are changing for the better at an accelerating pace. [ ... ]     You can argue being gay is from birth but everyone else knows it’s a choice fueled by sexual desires.     Actually, I couldn’t care less about the "why" of it.  That’s NONE of my business, and none of yours.  Whether a person is born gay or chooses to be so is totally irrelevant.    Even the animals know it.      Which explains, I suppose, the widespread homosexual orientation (homo- or bi-) that science has proven exists throughout most of the animal kingdom?  Nice try.  No cigar.     If [gay sex weren't] so discussing {sic!} I might be having homosexual relations.      Have you ever considered that THEY might regard the way WE have sex to be equally revolting?  But you don’t see them WHINING about that, or trying to make our lives miserable over it.     Heck I’m sleeping with a married woman, and it’s by choice not because I was born to commit adultery.  We are born in sin, it’s our choice to participate or try to follow Gods words.      A very interesting admission!  You ARE aware, then, are you not, that this puts you in the SAME jeopardy of hellfire that you are claiming the gays face?  Give me one good reason why I should NOT call you a hypocrite for doing that?     I’m a sinner and admit it, your gay bishop is a sinner and a liar even to himself and that’s not a religious leader.      Hmmm.  I don’t recall anything, Biblical or otherwise, that indicates that only PERFECT people can be bishops.      I guarantee you have some motive for backing this gay bishop outside of trying to follow Gods words.     Yeah.  Good upbringing.  My parents taught me to be a FAIR person, and to stand up for others when thugs are trying to beat them up.      What is it, are you gay, do you commit sodomy either oral or anal or do you just want the approval of the church to do so in the event you would like to?      NONE of the above.  Human rights are my business.  The things you are whining about are NO one else’s business that the individual’s (or their consenting partners), case-by-case.    There’s something driving you at least I’m honest about my life.     Yep.  The same thing that drove MLK, Jr. and ALL other egalitarians. We have NO use for bigotry, and we do everything we can to eradicate it.     My alias is because I’d like to continue seeing this married woman.     So call yourself the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus, or Alfred E. Neuman, or any of a MYRIAD of other aliases, then.  At leaset you wouldn’t be making your befuddles state QUITE so obvious, that way.     (BTW — how do you figure your using your own name would cause you to lose

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Response:

If you’re not "of the Episcopal Church" then what are you doing here? Answer: trolling. L

 no the answer is wondering what the Hell has happened to a church that I thought was keeping Gods commands.  Wondering what everyone else in your church was thinking, wondering if your church was going to split and from all the other post that’s likely.  No I’m not of your church and with your attitude I guess visitors to your church will be viewed the same as visitors to this newsgroup.  Be sure and great your next new visitor to your church like this, "hello you ignorant troll, what are you doing here?  Yep that’s what the Bible teaches, the satanic Bible if there is one.  What a friendly newsgroup I’ve been bashed and insulted because I don’t agree and stated my opinion based on biblical scriptures.  I just can’t understand why some of you can’t see the same scriptures.  I suppose you have been brainwashed by people like your gay bishop and gay friends to believe it’s perfectly acceptable.   Jump in this septic tank with us and swim, it doesn’t stink. You have changed your values to the point that sin has become acceptable in the name of equality and tolerance.  Why don’t you just except the KKK or the Nazi’s?  Just because they don’t like certain people should you exclude them?  What’s the difference?  Have the Grand leaders become bishops, eventually your church will only be a church teaching Satan’s ways under the name of Christ.  Read your Bible. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures. I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.  I am very upset.  I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.  A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.  It’s a deeply disturbing dark day when we allow leaders of any church the power to teach when there lives are openly sinful.  So my alias disturbs you?  Don’t worry about my splinter with that beam in your eye.  People it’s a war between good and evil.  Evil doesn’t always announce his attack in such a obvious way you can see him coming. Evil is a cancer.  It attacks in small steps slowly decaying from within and you don’t even notice until it’s malignant.  Today it’s a gay bishop, yesterday it was bishops molesting children.  Where is the purity in Gods house?  Evil is working, stand up and fight for God or follow the wide road to Hell.    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!     I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures.     There’s no accounting for ignorance as profound as yours.  You truly ARE befuddled.    More insults?     You haven’t seen ANY insults from me as yet.  I just call ‘em as I see ‘em.  You clearly are either one very ignorant, or one very befuddled, person.  Possibly both.     I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.     Not only do you have a vidid (and warped) imagination, you also confuse weaknesses with strengths.     I am very upset.      AWWwww-ww-ww-w-w-w-w.     Taunting me?     Nope.  LAUGHING at you.  Imagining a bigot’s being "upset" just because his intolerant agenda is rapidly circling the drain.  It doesn’t GET much funnier than that!     I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.     It does.  Jesus is God, and Jesus PRIME directive to His followers was for them to show love and compassion for their neighbors.  The Episcopal Church just took a giant step in that direction. Values-wise, it demonstrated a giant step AWAY from mindless bigotry.     Lets get this straight, who started the name calling because you disagree with me?     You’re referring, I take it, to the accurate descriptors which I applied to you after you had first EARNED them beyond all possible shadow of a doubt?  THOSE "names?"     You started the name calling but I’m neither ignorant or a bigot. That’s just your opinion.     Your attitude and words have PROVEN you to be a bigot for SURE. And most bigots are pretty ignorant, or they couldn’t BE bigots.  Bigotry is a totally unintelligent (and mindlessly hateful) attitude.      A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.     You misperceptions are duly noted.     A misconceptions only if I’m wrong and you can dispute the scriptures I’ll post for you, maybe your Bible doesn’t contain them or you don’t understand them.     My Bible contains MANY repetitions of Jesus’ prime directive:  that we show love and compassion to our neighbors.  That’s good enough for me.  Tells me not to TRASH my neighbors… not to attempt to make their lives miserable… and not to seek to deny equal rights to anyone.    Better yet I’ll send you some translations and you can dispute them with whatever translation you are reading.     ALL translations contain that which I just described.  That is an overriding directive, as Jesus, Himself said.  Only ONE commandment is greater:  the one that we love God.    The bottom line here is your gay bishop is sexually immoral.     And YOU are NOT?     I’d better get on the horn to the guinness folks.  You evidently are the SECOND perfect person to walk the earth.     Try removing the yule log from your eye. <remaining silly TRIPE snipped <scriptural references snipped.  Explanation for that follows     The reason I deleted the scriptures you cited is covered above.  NO one is perfect.  And James 2:10 makes it clear that no sin is worse than another.  Fortunately for us (and unfortunately for him, considering what he went through), Jesus paid the price for all our sins, no matter what they were and are.  But to claim that redemption, we must accept Him as Lord. [ ... ]     I must assume you are gay because you fight very hard to make your point…     Wrong assumption.  I am a sensible, fair-minded, egalitarian ALLY of the homosexual community… just as tens of millions of other "straights" are.  There are probably more ALLIES than there are gays!  And AS an egalitarian activist, you can COUNT on my fighting for their EQUAL rights just as hard and concertedly as I would if I *WERE* gay. [ ... ]    The straight world has tolerated alot from the gay community.     ROTFL!!!!!     I’ve heard those same words before.  From the segregationists I battled 40 years ago.  The were always saying, "the whites have tolerated a lot from the [blacks]."  (They used the "N-word," of course.)     A reasonable and intelligent person does not "tolerate" anything from ANY group of people, whether they be blacks, gays, Hispanics, Catholics, Moslems, or stamp collectors.  An INTELLIGENT person doesn’t give a flying rat’s ass WHAT a person may happen to have in the way of characteristics or beliefs, as long as they are doing no overt harm to others with respect to it.  To the contrary, to INTELLIGENT people… people are PEOPLE.  And such things are trivial NON-issues.  (BTW — none of this precludes a Christian from carrying out the Great Commission and spreading the gospel… to all who are RECEPTIVE to that.)    Gay marriage will be next.     GOOD!!!  It should have been legal all along.  It;s about time.     And I have YET to see any* person who WHINES about that, come up with a single way that this would do ANY harm to any heterosexual married couple.     Marriage was a institution for a man and woman.     Intolerantly.  It should always have been more inclusive.  As it IS now in Vermont, Switzerland, and Canada.  And soon WILL be throughout the USA, followed, probably, by the rest of the world (except, probably, for some of the more bigoted Arab nations), over the next few years.  And just a handful of years after that, people will look back on the former restrictions as we, today, look back on segregation… and wonder how such bigotry EVER could have prevailed.   …to allow same-sex marriages degrades the integrity of the sanctity of what marriage was intended from the beginning.      In a word:  Bullcrap!  It was degrading for so many people to be EXCLUDED from it for NO good reason.  NOTHING declares the validity of such an exclusion.    That’s not me saying that, it’s a vast majority of Christian people of all churches around the world.     A majority that very soon will become a smaller and smaller minority, fortunately.  Things are changing for the better at an accelerating pace. [ ... ]     You can argue being gay is from birth but everyone else knows it’s a choice fueled by sexual desires.     Actually, I couldn’t care less about the "why" of it.  That’s NONE of my business, and none of yours.  Whether a person is born gay or chooses to be so is totally irrelevant.    Even the animals know it.      Which explains, I suppose, the widespread homosexual orientation (homo- or bi-) that science has proven exists throughout most of the animal kingdom?  Nice try.  No cigar.     If [gay sex weren't] so discussing {sic!} I might be having homosexual relations.      Have you ever considered that THEY might regard the way WE have sex to be equally revolting?  But you don’t see them WHINING about that, or trying to make our lives miserable over it.     Heck I’m sleeping with a married woman, and it’s by choice not because I was born to commit adultery.  We are born in sin, it’s our choice to participate or try to follow Gods words.      A very interesting admission!  You ARE aware, then, are you not, that this puts you in the SAME jeopardy of hellfire that you are claiming the gays face?  Give me one good reason why I should NOT call you a hypocrite for doing that?     I’m a sinner and admit it, your gay bishop is a sinner and a liar even to himself and that’s not a religious leader.      Hmmm.  I don’t recall anything, Biblical or otherwise, that indicates that only PERFECT people can be bishops. [ ... ]      I guarantee you have some motive for backing this gay bishop outside of trying to follow Gods words.     Yeah.  Good upbringing.  My parents taught me to be a FAIR person, and to stand up for others when thugs are trying to beat them up.      What is it, are you gay, do you commit sodomy either oral or anal or do you just want the approval of the church to do so in the event you would like to?      NONE of the above.  Human rights are my business.  The things you are whining about are NO one else’s business that the individual’s (or their consenting partners), case-by-case.    There’s something driving you at least I’m honest about my life.     Yep.  The same thing that drove MLK, Jr. and ALL other egalitarians. We have NO use for bigotry, and we do everything we can to eradicate it.     My alias is because I’d like to continue seeing this married woman.     So call yourself the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus, or Alfred E. Neuman, or any of a MYRIAD of other aliases, then.  At leaset you wouldn’t be making your befuddles state QUITE so obvious, that way.     (BTW — how do you figure your using your own name would cause you to lose your girlfriend?  If not for

… read more »

Response:

If you’re not "of the Episcopal Church" then what are you doing here? Answer: trolling. L

Being entertained. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures. I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.  I am very upset.  I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.  A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.  It’s a deeply disturbing dark day when we allow leaders of any church the power to teach when there lives are openly sinful.  So my alias disturbs you?  Don’t worry about my splinter with that beam in your eye.  People it’s a war between good and evil.  Evil doesn’t always announce his attack in such a obvious way you can see him coming. Evil is a cancer.  It attacks in small steps slowly decaying from within and you don’t even notice until it’s malignant.  Today it’s a gay bishop, yesterday it was bishops molesting children.  Where is the purity in Gods house?  Evil is working, stand up and fight for God or follow the wide road to Hell.    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!

Response:

If you’re not "of the Episcopal Church" then what are you doing here? Answer: trolling. L

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures. I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.  I am very upset.  I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.  A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.  It’s a deeply disturbing dark day when we allow leaders of any church the power to teach when there lives are openly sinful.  So my alias disturbs you?  Don’t worry about my splinter with that beam in your eye.  People it’s a war between good and evil.  Evil doesn’t always announce his attack in such a obvious way you can see him coming. Evil is a cancer.  It attacks in small steps slowly decaying from within and you don’t even notice until it’s malignant.  Today it’s a gay bishop, yesterday it was bishops molesting children.  Where is the purity in Gods house?  Evil is working, stand up and fight for God or follow the wide road to Hell.    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!     I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures.     There’s no accounting for ignorance as profound as yours.  You truly ARE befuddled.    More insults?

    You haven’t seen ANY insults from me as yet.  I just call ‘em as I see ‘em.  You clearly are either one very ignorant, or one very befuddled, person.  Possibly both.     I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.     Not only do you have a vidid (and warped) imagination, you also confuse weaknesses with strengths.     I am very upset.      AWWwww-ww-ww-w-w-w-w.     Taunting me?

    Nope.  LAUGHING at you.  Imagining a bigot’s being "upset" just because his intolerant agenda is rapidly circling the drain.  It doesn’t GET much funnier than that!     I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.     It does.  Jesus is God, and Jesus PRIME directive to His followers was for them to show love and compassion for their neighbors.  The Episcopal Church just took a giant step in that direction.  Values-wise, it demonstrated a giant step AWAY from mindless bigotry.     Lets get this straight, who started the name calling because you disagree with me?  

    You’re referring, I take it, to the accurate descriptors which I applied to you after you had first EARNED them beyond all possible shadow of a doubt?  THOSE "names?"     You started the name calling but I’m neither ignorant or a bigot. That’s just your opinion.

    Your attitude and words have PROVEN you to be a bigot for SURE.   And most bigots are pretty ignorant, or they couldn’t BE bigots.  Bigotry is a totally unintelligent (and mindlessly hateful) attitude.      A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.     You misperceptions are duly noted.     A misconceptions only if I’m wrong and you can dispute the scriptures I’ll post for you, maybe your Bible doesn’t contain them or you don’t understand them.  

    My Bible contains MANY repetitions of Jesus’ prime directive:  that we show love and compassion to our neighbors.  That’s good enough for me.  Tells me not to TRASH my neighbors… not to attempt to make their lives miserable… and not to seek to deny equal rights to anyone.    Better yet I’ll send you some translations and you can dispute them with whatever translation you are reading.  

    ALL translations contain that which I just described.  That is an overriding directive, as Jesus, Himself said.  Only ONE commandment is greater:  the one that we love God.    The bottom line here is your gay bishop is sexually immoral.  

    And YOU are NOT?     I’d better get on the horn to the guinness folks.  You evidently are the SECOND perfect person to walk the earth.     Try removing the yule log from your eye. <remaining silly TRIPE snipped <scriptural references snipped.  Explanation for that follows     The reason I deleted the scriptures you cited is covered above.  NO one is perfect.  And James 2:10 makes it clear that no sin is worse than another.  Fortunately for us (and unfortunately for him, considering what he went through), Jesus paid the price for all our sins, no matter what they were and are.  But to claim that redemption, we must accept Him as Lord. [ ... ]     I must assume you are gay because you fight very hard to make your point…

    Wrong assumption.  I am a sensible, fair-minded, egalitarian ALLY of the homosexual community… just as tens of millions of other "straights" are.  There are probably more ALLIES than there are gays!  And AS an egalitarian activist, you can COUNT on my fighting for their EQUAL rights just as hard and concertedly as I would if I *WERE* gay. [ ... ]    The straight world has tolerated alot from the gay community.  

    ROTFL!!!!!     I’ve heard those same words before.  From the segregationists I battled 40 years ago.  The were always saying, "the whites have tolerated a lot from the [blacks]."  (They used the "N-word," of course.)     A reasonable and intelligent person does not "tolerate" anything from ANY group of people, whether they be blacks, gays, Hispanics, Catholics, Moslems, or stamp collectors.  An INTELLIGENT person doesn’t give a flying rat’s ass WHAT a person may happen to have in the way of characteristics or beliefs, as long as they are doing no overt harm to others with respect to it.  To the contrary, to INTELLIGENT people… people are PEOPLE.  And such things are trivial NON-issues.  (BTW — none of this precludes a Christian from carrying out the Great Commission and spreading the gospel… to all who are RECEPTIVE to that.)    Gay marriage will be next.  

    GOOD!!!  It should have been legal all along.  It;s about time.     And I have YET to see any* person who WHINES about that, come up with a single way that this would do ANY harm to any heterosexual married couple.     Marriage was a institution for a man and woman.

    Intolerantly.  It should always have been more inclusive.  As it IS now in Vermont, Switzerland, and Canada.  And soon WILL be throughout the USA, followed, probably, by the rest of the world (except, probably, for some of the more bigoted Arab nations), over the next few years.  And just a handful of years after that, people will look back on the former restrictions as we, today, look back on segregation… and wonder how such bigotry EVER could have prevailed.   …to allow same-sex marriages degrades the integrity of the sanctity of what marriage was intended from the beginning.  

     In a word:  Bullcrap!  It was degrading for so many people to be EXCLUDED from it for NO good reason.  NOTHING declares the validity of such an exclusion.    That’s not me saying that, it’s a vast majority of Christian people of all churches around the world.  

    A majority that very soon will become a smaller and smaller minority, fortunately.  Things are changing for the better at an accelerating pace. [ ... ]     You can argue being gay is from birth but everyone else knows it’s a choice fueled by sexual desires.

    Actually, I couldn’t care less about the "why" of it.  That’s NONE of my business, and none of yours.  Whether a person is born gay or chooses to be so is totally irrelevant.    Even the animals know it.  

     Which explains, I suppose, the widespread homosexual orientation (homo- or bi-) that science has proven exists throughout most of the animal kingdom?  Nice try.  No cigar.     If [gay sex weren't] so discussing {sic!} I might be having homosexual relations.  

     Have you ever considered that THEY might regard the way WE have sex to be equally revolting?  But you don’t see them WHINING about that, or trying to make our lives miserable over it.     Heck I’m sleeping with a married woman, and it’s by choice not because I was born to commit adultery.  We are born in sin, it’s our choice to participate or try to follow Gods words.  

     A very interesting admission!  You ARE aware, then, are you not, that this puts you in the SAME jeopardy of hellfire that you are claiming the gays face?  Give me one good reason why I should NOT call you a hypocrite for doing that?     I’m a sinner and admit it, your gay bishop is a sinner and a liar even to himself and that’s not a religious leader.  

     Hmmm.  I don’t recall anything, Biblical or otherwise, that indicates that only PERFECT people can be bishops. [ ... ]      I guarantee you have some motive for backing this gay bishop outside of trying to follow Gods words.  

    Yeah.  Good upbringing.  My parents taught me to be a FAIR person, and to stand up for others when thugs are trying to beat them up.      What is it, are you gay, do you commit sodomy either oral or anal or do you just want the approval of the church to do so in the event you would like to?

     NONE of the above.  Human rights are my business.  The things you are whining about are NO one else’s business that the individual’s (or their consenting partners), case-by-case.    There’s something driving you at least I’m honest about my life.  

    Yep.  The same thing that drove MLK, Jr. and ALL other egalitarians. We have NO use for bigotry, and we do everything we can to eradicate it.     My alias is because I’d like to continue seeing this married woman.  

    So call yourself the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus, or Alfred E. Neuman, or any of a MYRIAD of other aliases, then.  At least then you wouldn’t be making your befuddled state QUITE so obvious, that way.     (BTW — how do you figure your using your own name would cause you to lose your girlfriend?  If not for your admission in this regard, in THIS post, she’d never know that you admitted that publicly.  So in this post, you could have omitted that aspect of your life.  Thus, I’m guessing that you think she’d have less regard for you if she were to read your bigotry against gays, and against the PRIVATE behavior of other people.  Or even your expectation of **perfection** from church leaders.  This might give you some worthwhile food

… read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!     I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures.     There’s no accounting for ignorance as profound as yours.  You truly ARE befuddled.    More insults?

    You haven’t seen ANY insults from me as yet.  I just call ‘em as I see ‘em.  You clearly are either one very ignorant, or one very befuddled, person.  Possibly both.     I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.     Not only do you have a vidid (and warped) imagination, you also confuse weaknesses with strengths.     I am very upset.      AWWwww-ww-ww-w-w-w-w.     Taunting me?

    Nope.  LAUGHING at you.  Imagining a bigot’s being "upset" just because his intolerant agenda is rapidly circling the drain.  It doesn’t GET much funnier than that!     I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.     It does.  Jesus is God, and Jesus PRIME directive to His followers was for them to show love and compassion for their neighbors.  The Episcopal Church just took a giant step in that direction.  Values-wise, it demonstrated a giant step AWAY from mindless bigotry.     Lets get this straight, who started the name calling because you disagree with me?  

    You’re referring, I take it, to the accurate descriptors which I applied to you after you had first EARNED them beyond all possible shadow of a doubt?  THOSE "names?"     You started the name calling but I’m neither ignorant or a bigot. That’s just your opinion.

    Your attitude and words have PROVEN you to be a bigot for SURE.   And most bigots are pretty ignorant, or they couldn’t BE bigots.  Bigotry is a totally unintelligent (and mindlessly hateful) attitude.      A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.     You misperceptions are duly noted.     A misconceptions only if I’m wrong and you can dispute the scriptures I’ll post for you, maybe your Bible doesn’t contain them or you don’t understand them.  

    My Bible contains MANY repetitions of Jesus’ prime directive:  that we show love and compassion to our neighbors.  That’s good enough for me.  Tells me not to TRASH my neighbors… not to attempt to make their lives miserable… and not to seek to deny equal rights to anyone.    Better yet I’ll send you some translations and you can dispute them with whatever translation you are reading.  

    ALL translations contain that which I just described.  That is an overriding directive, as Jesus, Himself said.  Only ONE commandment is greater:  the one that we love God.    The bottom line here is your gay bishop is sexually immoral.  

    And YOU are NOT?     I’d better get on the horn to the guinness folks.  You evidently are the SECOND perfect person to walk the earth.     Try removing the yule log from your eye. <remaining silly TRIPE snipped <scriptural references snipped.  Explanation for that follows     The reason I deleted the scriptures you cited is covered above.  NO one is perfect.  And James 2:10 makes it clear that no sin is worse than another.  Fortunately for us (and unfortunately for him, considering what he went through), Jesus paid the price for all our sins, no matter what they were and are.  But to claim that redemption, we must accept Him as Lord. [ ... ]     I must assume you are gay because you fight very hard to make your point…

    Wrong assumption.  I am a sensible, fair-minded, egalitarian ALLY of the homosexual community… just as tens of millions of other "straights" are.  There are probably more ALLIES than there are gays!  And AS an egalitarian activist, you can COUNT on my fighting for their EQUAL rights just as hard and concertedly as I would if I *WERE* gay. [ ... ]    The straight world has tolerated alot from the gay community.  

    ROTFL!!!!!     I’ve heard those same words before.  From the segregationists I battled 40 years ago.  The were always saying, "the whites have tolerated a lot from the [blacks]."  (They used the "N-word," of course.)     A reasonable and intelligent person does not "tolerate" anything from ANY group of people, whether they be blacks, gays, Hispanics, Catholics, Moslems, or stamp collectors.  An INTELLIGENT person doesn’t give a flying rat’s ass WHAT a person may happen to have in the way of characteristics or beliefs, as long as they are doing no overt harm to others with respect to it.  To the contrary, to INTELLIGENT people… people are PEOPLE.  And such things are trivial NON-issues.  (BTW — none of this precludes a Christian from carrying out the Great Commission and spreading the gospel… to all who are RECEPTIVE to that.)    Gay marriage will be next.  

    GOOD!!!  It should have been legal all along.  It;s about time.     And I have YET to see any* person who WHINES about that, come up with a single way that this would do ANY harm to any heterosexual married couple.     Marriage was a institution for a man and woman.

    Intolerantly.  It should always have been more inclusive.  As it IS now in Vermont, Switzerland, and Canada.  And soon WILL be throughout the USA, followed, probably, by the rest of the world (except, probably, for some of the more bigoted Arab nations), over the next few years.  And just a handful of years after that, people will look back on the former restrictions as we, today, look back on segregation… and wonder how such bigotry EVER could have prevailed.   …to allow same-sex marriages degrades the integrity of the sanctity of what marriage was intended from the beginning.  

     In a word:  Bullcrap!  It was degrading for so many people to be EXCLUDED from it for NO good reason.  NOTHING declares the validity of such an exclusion.    That’s not me saying that, it’s a vast majority of Christian people of all churches around the world.  

    A majority that very soon will become a smaller and smaller minority, fortunately.  Things are changing for the better at an accelerating pace. [ ... ]     You can argue being gay is from birth but everyone else knows it’s a choice fueled by sexual desires.

    Actually, I couldn’t care less about the "why" of it.  That’s NONE of my business, and none of yours.  Whether a person is born gay or chooses to be so is totally irrelevant.    Even the animals know it.  

     Which explains, I suppose, the widespread homosexual orientation (homo- or bi-) that science has proven exists throughout most of the animal kingdom?  Nice try.  No cigar.     If [gay sex weren't] so discussing {sic!} I might be having homosexual relations.  

     Have you ever considered that THEY might regard the way WE have sex to be equally revolting?  But you don’t see them WHINING about that, or trying to make our lives miserable over it.     Heck I’m sleeping with a married woman, and it’s by choice not because I was born to commit adultery.  We are born in sin, it’s our choice to participate or try to follow Gods words.  

     A very interesting admission!  You ARE aware, then, are you not, that this puts you in the SAME jeopardy of hellfire that you are claiming the gays face?  Give me one good reason why I should NOT call you a hypocrite for doing that?     I’m a sinner and admit it, your gay bishop is a sinner and a liar even to himself and that’s not a religious leader.  

     Hmmm.  I don’t recall anything, Biblical or otherwise, that indicates that only PERFECT people can be bishops. [ ... ]      I guarantee you have some motive for backing this gay bishop outside of trying to follow Gods words.  

    Yeah.  Good upbringing.  My parents taught me to be a FAIR person, and to stand up for others when thugs are trying to beat them up.      What is it, are you gay, do you commit sodomy either oral or anal or do you just want the approval of the church to do so in the event you would like to?

     NONE of the above.  Human rights are my business.  The things you are whining about are NO one else’s business that the individual’s (or their consenting partners), case-by-case.    There’s something driving you at least I’m honest about my life.  

    Yep.  The same thing that drove MLK, Jr. and ALL other egalitarians. We have NO use for bigotry, and we do everything we can to eradicate it.     My alias is because I’d like to continue seeing this married woman.  

    So call yourself the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus, or Alfred E. Neuman, or any of a MYRIAD of other aliases, then.  At leaset you wouldn’t be making your befuddles state QUITE so obvious, that way.     (BTW — how do you figure your using your own name would cause you to lose your girlfriend?  If not for your admission in this regard, in THIS post, she’d never know that you admitted that publicly.  So in this post, you could have omitted that aspect of your life.  Thus, I’m guessing that you think she’d have less regard for you if she were to read your bigotry against gays, and against the PRIVATE behavior of other people.  Or even your expectation of **perfection** from church leaders.  This might give you some worthwhile food for

… read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!     I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures.     There’s no accounting for ignorance as profound as yours.  You truly ARE befuddled.

 more insults?     I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.     Not only do you have a vidid (and warped) imagination, you also confuse weaknesses with strengths.     I am very upset.      AWWwww-ww-ww-w-w-w-w.

Taunting me?     I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.     It does.  Jesus is God, and Jesus PRIME directive to His followers was for them to show love and compassion for their neighbors.  The Episcopal Church just took a giant step in that direction.  Values-wise, it demonstrated a giant step AWAY from mindless bigotry.

Lets get this straight, who started the name calling because you disagree with me?  You started the name calling but I’m neither ignorant or a bigot. That’s just your opinion.      A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.     You misperceptions are duly noted.

A misconceptions only if I’m wrong and you can dispute the scriptures I’ll post for you, maybe your Bible doesn’t contain them or you don’t understand them.  Better yet I’ll send you some translations and you can dispute them with whatever translation you are reading.  The bottom line here is your gay bishop is sexually immoral.  He is practicing fornication outside marriage. Has been for 15 years was it?  Yet claims pure enough to hold the title of bishop.  So if it’s ok for him to fornicate it’s ok for me?  What about adultery?  What about other sexually immoral things?  Where does this line stop?  You may call me a bigot or ignorant but I never once called you anything.  God said it I only repeated his words.  Read below and twist his words. <remaining silly TRIPE snipped

Pr.6:24 keeping you from the immoral woman, from the smooth tongue of the wayward wife. 1Co.5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people– 1Co.5:10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 1Co.5:11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 1Co.6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders Ep.5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a man is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. [a] Heb.12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Heb.13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. Re.21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Re.22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.  NIV the word of God will stand long after you and I are gone, make sure the blood of others isn’t on your hands.  I must assume you are gay because you fight very hard to make your point but have yet to back up anything disputing your gay bishop isn’t sexually immoral or fornicating?  Are these the qualifications for a bishop, elder or Deacon? The straight world has tolerated alot from the gay community.  Gay marriage will be next, marriage was a institution for a man and woman, to allow same sex marriages degrades the integrity of the sanctity of what marriage was intended from the beginning.  That’s not me saying that, it’s a vast majority of Christian people of all churches around the world.  That’s also God saying sexual immortality has no place in his kingdom.  You can argue being gay is from birth but everyone else knows it’s a choice fueled by sexual desires.  Even the animals know it.  If packing fudge wasn’t so discussing I might be having homosexual relations.  Heck I’m sleeping with a married woman, and it’s by choice not because I was born to commit adultery. We are born in sin, it’s our choice to participate or try to follow Gods words.  I’m a sinner and admit it, your gay bishop is a sinner and a liar even to himself and that’s not a religious leader.  Don’t confuse how Satan will tempt you.  I guarantee you have some motive for backing this gay bishop outside of trying to follow Gods words.  What is it, are you gay, do you commit sodomy either oral or anal or do you just want the approval of the church to do so in the event you would like to?  There’s something driving you at least I’m honest about my life.  My alias is because I’d like to continue seeing this married woman.  I chose befuddled not because I’m befuddled, because it befuddles you not knowing who I am.

Response:

   I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!     I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures.

    There’s no accounting for ignorance as profound as yours.  You truly ARE befuddled.     I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.  

    Not only do you have a vidid (and warped) imagination, you also confuse weaknesses with strengths.     I am very upset.  

     AWWwww-ww-ww-w-w-w-w.     I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.  

    It does.  Jesus is God, and Jesus PRIME directive to His followers was for them to show love and compassion for their neighbors.  The Episcopal Church just took a giant step in that direction.  Values-wise, it demonstrated a giant step AWAY from mindless bigotry.      A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.

    You misperceptions are duly noted. <remaining silly TRIPE snipped

Response:

Oh and one other thing. It is only those that wish it not to be so who mis-interpret this particular area of scripture. For the rest of us the meaning is obvious and clear. I dare say those that share the same point of view are not laughing either.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure. I have to ask you folks: does it give you a good, warm feeling to know that you sound just exactly like the religious fundamentalists we’ve all probably laughed at in the past? How is it that all scripture is to be understood through the lens of the intellect God gave us, except for this particular bit of scripture which is to be subjected ONLY to the standard locker-room posturing and "I couldn’t live like that" head-shaking? Hmmm?

Response:

   I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.

    Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!

Response:

No, you miss the obvious fact.Its not just the       evangelical Episcopalians that are upset its also the  Anglo / Catholic Episcopalians. 2 of the major groups in historical Anglicanism.

Response:

 I’m glad my alias upsets you so much that it’s all you are worried about. I’m not even of the Episcopal church.  I’m just a bystanders completely shocked that you pollute Gods word and try to back it up with scriptures. I’m afraid that your weakness will spread to other churches then other weaknesses will spread and Satan wins a few more lost souls.  I am very upset.  I always thought the Episcopal church had values and a reverence for God.  A deep respect and this is a huge insult not just to some people in your church.  It a huge insult to many other religions that believe in God the father and Jesus the son.  It’s a deeply disturbing dark day when we allow leaders of any church the power to teach when there lives are openly sinful.  So my alias disturbs you?  Don’t worry about my splinter with that beam in your eye.  People it’s a war between good and evil.  Evil doesn’t always announce his attack in such a obvious way you can see him coming. Evil is a cancer.  It attacks in small steps slowly decaying from within and you don’t even notice until it’s malignant.  Today it’s a gay bishop, yesterday it was bishops molesting children.  Where is the purity in Gods house?  Evil is working, stand up and fight for God or follow the wide road to Hell.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.     Then I commend you for choosing an alias that describes you so PERFECTLY!

Response:

I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure.

Response:

It is clearly understood. And I’m not laughing.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I applaud the Texas branch standing it’s grounds for keeping the word of God pure. I have to ask you folks: does it give you a good, warm feeling to know that you sound just exactly like the religious fundamentalists we’ve all probably laughed at in the past? How is it that all scripture is to be understood through the lens of the intellect God gave us, except for this particular bit of scripture which is to be subjected ONLY to the standard locker-room posturing and "I couldn’t live like that" head-shaking? Hmmm?

Response:

Question:

Not even I can turn down this price. Quicken has been available free for years (with systems or other promotions), but Simply is much more potent. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ACCPAC Makes Small Business Accounting Simple and FREE PRESS CONTACTS 1 million U.S. businesses offered full-strength and industry proven accounting solution free of charge PLEASANTON, Calif., October 16, 2001

Question:

this week my body has started this new little thing.   I don’t know if its cuz I’m eating light dinners w/ not enoug fat or what.   But – about 9:30pm I’m getting the munches. UGH.   So far I’ve been behaving myself and maybe have something light to eat.   But – I don’t like this new little habit.

i’ve been getting up and going to bed really late for the past 2 weeks or so and often have a late night snack after dinner because i get plain hungry. i think the secret is how to choose that food particularly wisely (something light, and most of all, nothing high in carbs). nina 210/157/140

Response:

Is it possible that you are not eating enough during the day?  Perhaps it’s a signal from your body to eat more.   Have you been exercising more than usual?   What has recently changed in your WOE that prompts the munchies? If it’s real hunger, not mouth hunger, you could have a little snack or eat a bit more at dinner, depending on your WOE. L 66lb loss maintained since May 1996

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this week my body has started this new little thing.   I don’t know if its cuz I’m eating light dinners w/ not enoug fat or what.   But – about 9:30pm I’m getting the munches. UGH.   So far I’ve been behaving myself and maybe have something light to eat.   But – I don’t like this new little habit.

Response:

this week my body has started this new little thing.   I don’t know if its cuz I’m eating light dinners w/ not enoug fat or what.   But – about 9:30pm I’m getting the munches.   UGH.   So far I’ve been behaving myself and maybe have something light to eat.   But – I don’t like this new little habit.

Response:

Actually – I haven’t been exercising as much.   The changes in wol recently are:   1.  the BF issue and making sure I cook enough food for him every day.   (which means I’m back to serious portion control on the dinenrs – instead of just a salad or shake).   and 2.   Serious work stress – which means by 9:30 at night – I’m finally beginning to wind down after an extremely stressful day – and not being able to find time for exercise. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it possible that you are not eating enough during the day?  Perhaps it’s a signal from your body to eat more.   Have you been exercising more than usual?   What has recently changed in your WOE that prompts the munchies? If it’s real hunger, not mouth hunger, you could have a little snack or eat a bit more at dinner, depending on your WOE. L 66lb loss maintained since May 1996 this week my body has started this new little thing.   I don’t know if its cuz I’m eating light dinners w/ not enoug fat or what.   But – about 9:30pm I’m getting the munches. UGH.   So far I’ve been behaving myself and maybe have something light to eat.   But – I don’t like this new little habit.

Response:

this week my body has started this new little thing.   I don’t know if its cuz I’m eating light dinners w/ not enoug fat or what.   But – about 9:30pm I’m getting the munches.   UGH.   So far I’ve been behaving myself and maybe have something light to eat.   But – I don’t like this new little habit.

Oh man, could it be the change in the weather?  I’ve noticed the exact same thing… I sate it with a couple of pieces of toast or a small bowl of cereal. Grrr. Tirya 206/166/160 Minigoal – to stay at or below 170 till I move

Response:

Actually – I haven’t been exercising as much.   The changes in wol recently are:   1.  the BF issue and making sure I cook enough food for him every day.   (which means I’m back to serious portion control on the dinenrs – instead of just a salad or shake).   and 2.   Serious work stress – which means by 9:30 at night – I’m finally beginning to wind down after an extremely stressful day – and not being able to find time for exercise.

I see what you mean by work stress.  Since I recently started working again for my former company, I have increased stress.  Not to mention also working for my husband in the afternoons.  There was a crisis the other day that I had to fix at night, and the new computer system is so effing slow.   I miss the old host.   Anyway, it still needs a lot fixing up, and I keep finding problems with it to fix.   In hindsight, they should have called me in the first place to set things straight when they moved the computer system to a NT server.   The consultant and the vendor didn’t do a good job with it. Anyway, may I suggest writing down a list of things you could try to relax at night, even if it’s for only a few minutes, if not already?  Say, listening to soothing music, journaling, venting to your BF or your friend, etc.   Anything you can think of for destressing. Oh, I just remembered something.  When you work extra hard, you could be hungrier than before because your brain uses more calories.  I find myself more hungry when I study a textbook or work harder.   According to fitday.com, studying (to me, which is the same as working) burns more calories than just sitting.   In this case, you could use a lite snack. Just a thought. L 66lb loss maintained since May 1996

Response:

I see what you mean by work stress.  Since I recently started working again for my former company, I have increased stress.  Not to mention also working for my husband in the afternoons.  There was a crisis the other day that I had to fix at night, and the new computer system is so effing slow.   I miss the old host.   Anyway, it still needs a lot fixing up, and I keep finding problems with it to fix.   In hindsight, they should have called me in the first place to set things straight when they moved the computer system to a NT server.   The consultant and the vendor didn’t do a good job with it.

I work for a company w/ appr 300 emp, we have thousands of projects and thousands of clients.  Our old accounting system was an alpha server w/ Oracle…  company was bought out and the new company is designing a new system – in the interim they have forced us to "upgrade" to a temp package that is an ….  (get this) …  Access 95 interface ….  installing 9 new servers – as well as forcing an upgrade on all users to be at least a PII 300 or better.  (for the managers who only use email and run the occasional reports for their projects – they’ve been running fine w/ 166’s).   This *new* software has been crashing the 2 citrix servers as well as a couple of the process servers.   Its a nightmare! Oh – and to boot – their software was never tested – we "are" their beta testers. Today I had Fried cheesecake for lunch – before eating my normal lunch.   It was either that or a stiff drink – and I can’t go back to work then.   OK – vent over … Anyway, may I suggest writing down a list of things you could try to relax at night, even if it’s for only a few minutes, if not already?  Say, listening to soothing music, journaling, venting to your BF or your friend, etc.   Anything you can think of for destressing.

My de-stressing has been "weight training for dummies" …  reading the "non school" related books and stuff like that.   Just – relaxing from 10 to 11pm and then going to sleep.  It calms me down. Oh, I just remembered something.  When you work extra hard, you could be hungrier than before because your brain uses more calories.  I find myself more hungry when I study a textbook or work harder.   According to fitday.com, studying (to me, which is the same as working) burns more calories than just sitting.   In this case, you could use a lite snack. Just a thought.

I have been eating a light snack when I do get hungry.   I have finally broken myself (and my son) out of the dessert habit – Last night I had some chicken salad at 9:30pm to satisfy the hunger.

Response:

Today I had Fried cheesecake for lunch – before eating my normal lunch. It was either that or a stiff drink – and I can’t go back to work then.   Jenn, fried cheesecake?  They make such a thing?  Where?  Maybe I don’t want to know :^)

Wow, my two favorite foods in one…fried cheese+cheesecake= yeah, right, I don’t want to know, either! — Lisa B. 243/144.5/145

Response:

Today I had Fried cheesecake for lunch – before eating my normal lunch.   It was either that or a stiff drink – and I can’t go back to work then.   Jenn, fried cheesecake?  They make such a thing?  Where?  Maybe I don’t want to know :^) Good luck with the Access debacle – it sounds like a nightmare that will have to be over soon, one way or another.  Bet the manager’s are happy to get their new P III’s. Julieanne

Lonestar steak house….  4 bite sized pieces of fried cheesecake topped w/ strawberry and carmel sauce then whipped cream.    Hey – in the grand scheme of things – its not "that" bad.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today I had Fried cheesecake for lunch – before eating my normal lunch. It was either that or a stiff drink – and I can’t go back to work then.   Jenn, fried cheesecake?  They make such a thing?  Where?  Maybe I don’t want to know :^) Wow, my two favorite foods in one…fried cheese+cheesecake= yeah, right, I don’t want to know, either!

oops – too late – already posted …  don’t read my response to Julieanne

Response:

Question:

Bernhard, Thanks for your well-written and reflected post. One comment on the general effect of boycots: There is a lot of debate about how effective they are. But in the case of South Africa under Apartheid, former leaders of the white regime admit that the growing isolation the country faced was important in seeking a negotiated solution with Nelson Mandela. In the case of Iraq it depends what you see the goal as. If the goal was to remove Saddam Hussein it has failed. If the goal was to keep the country down and stop it from rearming and possibly cause war again, it has succeeded.

I agree. I think we all do not want to keep the country down. Burma needs a real change. IMHO, boycott of independent tourism does not lead to such change. Investment boycott and even boycott of organized, prepaid tourism is a different thing. I don’t know what is the best thing to do in the case of Burma. I do sympathise with the individual citizen who badly needs the tourist dollar. But if the pressure works and the regime gives in, could happen unexpectedly, just as when the Berlin wall came down in 1989. But the long history of civil and ethnic war in Burma, and the not-so-hidden hand of China (and India, both seeking regional influence) in supporting the current military government makes it difficult to apply pressure in a way that would really weaken the generals. Perhaps this regional support, as well as the money made from the drug trade, is what really keeps the military clique in power.

Sure, it’s the regional support, the drug trade and huge investments from abroad (i.e. Canadian) companies that makes most of the money for the generals. Compared to that, earnings from tourists, especially backpackers, do not count much. It’s the signal effect that might be of a certain value. But has it achieved anything during the last ten years? AFP: "The poor state of the economy is one factor believed to be behind a nascent political thaw, resulting in senior military leaders meeting with opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi. Some commentators say that the regime is planning to make some concessions to the National League for Democracy in the hopes of shedding its pariah status and easing sanctions." BTW, before the Berlin wall came down, East Germany was facing massive economic problems too. Could this be the beginning of a change? Even if supported by some neighbors, the tatmadaw has led the country to a desastrous economic situation. Will they have to make more concessions or is it just a game to keep international protests down? The more the outside world knows about what’s going on, the better. I hope I will soon find time to add some stories about my recent experiences in Burma to my website. Some of them will show that the country is not just "travelers paradise", even if many of my photos look exactly like that… Bernie — Follow me on a fantastic trip to Indochina Laos, Cambodia and Burma Travelogues http://www.asiaphoto.de

Response:

*snip* A travel boycott is always directed at an entire nation, as it reduces the income of local people too. It has been proven many times that boycotts do not work effectivly. Cuba and Iraq are just two examples that spring to my mind.

*snip* Bernhard, Thanks for your well-written and reflected post. One comment on the general effect of boycots: There is a lot of debate about how effective they are. But in the case of South Africa under Apartheid, former leaders of the white regime admit that the growing isolation the country faced was important in seeking a negotiated solution with Nelson Mandela. In the case of Iraq it depends what you see the goal as. If the goal was to remove Saddam Hussein it has failed. If the goal was to keep the country down and stop it from rearming and possibly cause war again, it has succeeded. On the other side you have Cuba, where the boycott seems pointless, only giving Fidel Castro a perfect excuse for every problem on the island. But the USA is the only Western country to boycott it – Europe and Canada and the others do not. And then there is the signal effect of boycotts. This is even harder to measure or agree upon. But I suspect that, say,  if I was a Thai general wanting to mount a military coup, the international reaction to such an event  would be one of the factors that I considered. The world would be surprised and disappointed to see tanks in the streets of Bangkok in this democratic post-cold-war era. And the Thais, ever face-conscious, know this. So the prospect of becoming an international pariah nation would frighten other segments of society that might otherwise welcome or tolerate a military take-over. I don’t know what is the best thing to do in the case of Burma. I do sympathise with the individual citizen who badly needs the tourist dollar. But if the pressure works and the regime gives in, could happen unexpectedly, just as when the Berlin wall came down in 1989. But the long history of civil and ethnic war in Burma, and the not-so-hidden hand of China (and India, both seeking regional influence) in supporting the current military government makes it difficult to apply pressure in a way that would really weaken the generals. Perhaps this regional support, as well as the money made from the drug trade, is what really keeps the military clique in power. Vagabond

Response:

Myanmar promotes tourism as critics urge boycott February 20, 2001 Web posted at: 3:33 p.m. EST (2033 GMT) YANGON, Myanmar (AP) — The tourism industry thinks it can make the magic of Myanmar — golden pagodas, ancient cities, sarong-clad people — a more potent lure than the calls for a boycott of this military-ruled nation. Business people maintain that lackluster marketing, few international air links and bureaucratic hassles rather than political activists have held Myanmar back from becoming one of Asia’s top tourist destinations. They’re especially hopeful about a new promotion campaign they have planned. "The biggest thing is awareness. The country has basically been locked away from the world since World War II," said Duncan T. MacLean, who heads the recently formed Marketing Myanmar Committee. Travelers urged to stay away The industry contends it isn’t worried by the boycott campaign started by Aung San Suu Kyi, the pro-democracy leader and Nobel peace laureate who is urging tourists as well as foreign investors to shun her country. A number of human rights advocacy groups around the world have taken up her call. They argue tourist spending goes into the coffers of a junta that brutally crushed a people’s power uprising in 1988, uses forced labor on tourism projects and tramples on basic human rights. "The tourism industry and visiting tourists are helping sustain one of the most brutal regimes in the world. The cost of a holiday could be someone’s life," says the Burma Campaign, which is based in Britain. Although tourist numbers have leveled off the last three years, arrivals are up some sixfold from a decade ago. Where once only limited and regimented group tours were available, about 200 travel agencies now offer jungle treks, river cruises, steam locomotive travel and ballooning over ancient temples. Hotels have mushroomed. MacLean estimates that Myanmar, also known as Burma, saw 150,000 to 160,000 tourists last year. The government’s figure, which appears to include businessmen, diplomats and other foreigners, is 200,000. Tourism increase predicted MacLean, also general manager of the Hotel Equatorial, predicts the country will see an increase in business travelers soon and then a significant rise in tourist visits during the 2001-02 high season. His committee, which brings together the private and government sectors, plans major promotion campaigns this year, including the first direct push in the United States. "Each year our marketing gets more effective. It looks like we’re going in the right direction," said S.B. Chetry, local operator of the U.S.-based tour agency Journeys. "We should start on a steady growth from now on." Not if groups like the Burma Campaign have their way. "It’s such a beautiful, magical place; it would be wonderful to have people go there in the future. But we have to hold off now," said a spokeswoman, Yvette Mahon. "We don’t have any sense that the campaign is not working." Mahon said in a telephone interview that her group is focusing on France, Germany and Italy, which send the most Western tourists to Myanmar. It is also urging people not to buy the most popular guide book on Myanmar. The 2000 edition of the Lonely Planet guide argues that tourism revenue flows largely into ordinary people’s pockets, since most of the industry is now privatized. It also says the presence of foreigners has at times ameliorated human rights abuses. "We continue to believe that the positives of travel to Myanmar outweigh the negatives," the guide says. Expatriates and Myanmar people who benefit from tourism generally echo that position and say their focus is on making it easier for foreigners to visit. They want the government to issue tourist visas on arrival and end a requirement for tourists to change $200 into a special currency that does go to the state. "The industry is just a baby. We’re in the crawling stage," MacLean said. "The new tourism is only about five years old." The government-organized Visit Myanmar Year in 1996 was largely a flop, but Chetry said it did heighten Myanmar’s international profile and prompted the government to offer incentives to the private sector. Hotels proliferated and travel agencies were able to obtain such hitherto scarce items as telephones and faxes. These allowed them to plug into the outside world where they are now trying to play down the politics and lure visitors with come-ons like "Be mesmerized by Myanmar." Copyright 2001 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Holiday In Hell A well-intentioned travel boycott of Myanmar hurts ordinary people By RON GLUCKMAN ASIAWEEK MAGAZINE FEBRUARY 23, 2001 We’re bumping along rutted roads in a dusty rented car, Tony and the driver up front, Maureen and me in back, when Tony, face pressed in his Lonely Planet guidebook, suggests another stop. Up ahead is Thayekhittaya, ruins dating back 2,500 years. The description is enticing, but we can’t help but groan. We’ve been lurching for eight, long hours on the road from Myanmar’s capital, Yangon. We ache, it’s nearly dark, and tomorrow morning promises another long ride to Bagan, the ancient city that is our quest. Besides, we bowed to Tony last time, at Shwe-myetman Paya (Temple of the Golden Spectacles). The appeal – you guessed it – a Buddha with big glasses. "It takes nine monks to lift the glasses every fortnight to clean them," Tony gleefully recites from the guide he keeps close at hand. To be honest, we are a bit Buddha-ed out, a common condition among tourists in this pagoda-packed land. Still, it’s a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, exhorts Tony. So, as the sun sets, we’re tramping through muddy fields – only the temples are so far away, we never reach one. "Gee, this book should better explain the distance," says Tony, unabashed. "You really need more time here." You’d think he’d be at least a little bit contrite. After all, it’s his guide book. Literally. Tony and Maureen Wheeler practically invented budget travel. Their hand-stapled reports back in 1973 from a honeymoon trek across Asia spawned Lonely Planet and its legendary backpacker guides. With their down-to-earth, first-person reports of how to get there, what to see and where to stay, plus their in-depth sections on history, culture and the environment, all delivered with a 1960s-style counterculture slant, the Wheelers’ guides have long been the bible for independent travelers. But Tony and Maureen were not trudging through Myanmar to check on the accuracy of travel times in their book on the country. They came to this tragic but beautiful land because human rights activists have organized a boycott aimed at forcing them to cease publication of their Myanmar guide. "The development of tourism in Burma is directly linked to mass human rights abuses including rape, torture and murder," declares Tourism Concern and Burma Campaign, two London-based activist groups. "Lonely Planet’s promotion of tourism to Burma . . . have left pro-democracy activists with no choice but to call for a boycott." The campaigners last year asked concerned travellers to stop buying any Lonely Planet books as long as the company publishes a Myanmar guide. The Wheelers were stunned. After all, their guides provide blunt expositions of human rights violations in addition to explaining how to get to obscure pagodas and where to find the best cheap meals. The company donates part of its profits to causes like women’s rights and the environment (and including, for many years, Tourism Concern and Burma Campaign). Only repressive governments ban Lonely Planet guides for being too honest about the problems in countries they cover. Or so the Wheelers thought. The boycott is one of the latest acts in the long-running tragedy that is Burma – or Myanmar, as it was named by the generals who seized power in 1988 over the bodies of thousands of student protesters. They later refused to relinquish control following elections in 1990 won by the opposition led by Aung San Suu Kyi. Her courage in the years of resistance and house arrest since has earned her a Nobel Peace Prize. Tourism might seem a strange target in the battle against the junta, but the long stalemate has forced drastic tactics. The regime’s plan to boost visitor numbers in the 1990s presented an obvious Achilles’ Heel. Aung San Suu Kyi called on would-be tourists to shun her country, arguing that their money only helped the military, not the ordinary people. From there, the boycott has grown from telling foreigners not to go to Myanmar, to insisting that they not even buy books about going to Myanmar. Should you stay or should you go? "The message from Aung San Suu Kyi and the NLD {her National League for Democracy party} has been unequivocal," says Patricia Barnett, director of Tourism Concern. "They say don’t go, and they are the legitimate government. We have to respect their wishes." The Wheelers were not sure. A two-page section in the Lonely Planet Myanmar guide outlines the pros and cons, but concludes: "Tourism remains one of the only industries to which ordinary people have access. Any reduction in tourism automatically means a re-duction in local income earning opportunities. For this reason alone, we continue to believe that the positives of travel to Myanmar outweigh the negatives." Still, logic dictates that the debate be decided in the country in question, not at the home office. Hence, Tony and Maureen have come to Myanmar to see things for themselves. Asiaweek tagged along for our own look. Tourism is bad, say boycott groups, since it props up the military regime and helps no one in Myanmar. That argument puzzles Soe Tint, a taxi driver in

… read more »

Response:

Ah, Walter!  So we meet again.  Since you work for the Burmese action group, it’s clear you agree with their approach and we shouldn’t bore everyone going round and round on this again . . . but I couldn’t resist . . . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I have some sympathy with that point of view, it ain’t always so. One of the problems with tourism in Burma as it’s currently structured, is that licensing for guesthouses (small and large) and "small travel agencies" is rather tightly controlled and frequently dispensed only to SLORC supporters and their family members and friends. Which suggests a couple of things: with my government!  Why can’t people see past the righteous propaganda and do the same with Burma.  On one of my trips there 7 years ago, the workers in the central region were just eating fish paste with rice . . . when the kyat was 100 kyat to the USD.  Now it’s 428 ky to the USD.  Can you really feel good about starving these folks out? The kyat has gone to about 550 per dollar in the past month.  And the reason is not, as you imply,

I’m not implying this at all.  Actual, Walter, we agree.  Tourism makes little if any impact!  That’s the very point you illustrate. So why the tourist boycott? that some people have chosen to support the National League for Democracy’s request that tourists stay away under current circumstances.  The cause is chronic mismanagement of the economy by the military junta.  Last spring they raised military and bureaucratic salaries by a factor of five, and last month they said they’d raise them again by a factor of four.  That doesn’t address the underlying problems in the economy, it just fuels inflation. On top of which, the major cash contributor to the economy is not tourism by a long shot! Funny that in one breath you suggest supporters of the NLD are "starving these folks out" and in the next breath suggesting that tourism is anyway not a substantial part of the economy.

Nope, just suggesting a TOURIST boycott might be more likely to starve out the REGULAR folks of a chance at hard currency . . . clearly the military are well fed! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s great to read Amnesty Int’l and I appreciate the Burmese action groups postings as a way to keep in touch with the news, too.  But part of the key to this WHOLE story is the economics of Burma which those groups won’t put in their lit because it doesn’t back their approach.  Check out the US embassy’s economic assessment out of Yangon. Do check out the US Embassy reports, as well as IMF and World Bank analyses, as well as ILO, AI and other human rights reports.  The economic analyses clearly suggest that the junta, by trying to rule the country by force, expends much too much of national wealth on its coercive apparatus, just trying to get people to do what they are ordered to do.  In addition, by running the economy to serve the political needs of the junta, they get extremely poor economic outcomes.  And it is conscious decisionmaking by the junta that provides among the lowest funding on the planet for education and public health. The poverty in Burma is the result of military rule.  Period.

Couldn’t agree with you more.  That wasn’t the issue.  The issue was TOURISM dollar impact.  Everyone agrees on the government, Walter.  You’re arguing something we all agree with.  The issue was whether or not to go as a tourist. Just one last thing, we’re sitting on our plush butts in the Western world deciding whether or not we should make these people matyrs for the cause. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that most Burmese don’t want to be.  Most folks period are trying just "To Live" (as the Chinese film put it) and would forgo boycotts and politics in favor of feeding their families. Nancy And the thousands of students who’ve fled Burma, who’ve sacrificed their best years in the malarial border areas, living underground and in fear inside Thailand, who support the NLD position, what do you say to them? Are they sitting on their plush butts, as you say?  Or do you prefer not to hear them?  Just curious.

No, they’re not.  Walter, you have an uncanny ability to listen and not hear. I can hear you twisting the words from here!  I said Western, Walter, and I meant it.  And while some brave souls revolted and went into hiding, you know the reason why your approach hasn’t been more successful is because the others are understandably afraid and unwillingly to be matyrs. We agree on everything but approach, Walter!  Good to hear from you.  And glad you’re still kicking around! Nancy

Response:

Q. To go or not to go? A. Not to go!

Well argued.

Response:

Well put, Tracy!  Just one point of clarification.  Perhaps I wasn’t clear, but I’m not saying that the Burmese resistance is pursuing an economically destructive policy.  The economic facts actually show that tourism, itself, has little to do with the economics of the country.  So while anyone would applaud the folks fighting a repressive regime, I think that tourism itself, might benefit the regular worker more than bolster a bad system.  It leads to less isolation and a greater world picture for the average Burmese.  And I do believe it helps quite a few small folks financially.  One teacher (of monks learning English) I know has accrued quite a lot of language instruction books and a lot of international friends meeting tourists. S. Africa btw is an interesting scenario, because the burden (for the new gov’t) of a heavy debt the old took on because of boycotts . . . and how to regenerate trade are two great problems. So, briefly, clearly the Burmese government is a problem. . . the question is what tactics will liberalize system . . . obviously, there is more than one way to go about this.  Since 1990 the resistance has tried to make headway by fighting the gov’t.  Meanwhile, the economy has liberalized a bit to allow for independent entrepreneurs, less restricted travel . . . and they’ve joined ASEAN.  It might be the system has to be changed from within. So, I’m not saying I’m some wise backpacker.  (I’m not even a backpacker!  Just a remote traveller.)  But, just as we all determine politics for our countries by gathering information, I’m attempting to do the same pertaining to Burma.   I think the "boycott tourism" stance is more ideological than economic.  But of course, people are free to take action any way they see fit.  (It’s not so different from recognizing a problem with the homeless in your country . . . but choosing between giving money to a soup kitchen that might encourage a "handout" mentality, or giving money to a lobbying group that might reform legislation that puts psychiatric patients on the street.) Take care,   Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi Nancy, We’ve discussed this issue before, and I’m not going to go on and on about it But while I don’t doubt that the people of Burma would prefer not to be martyrs to the cause (who on earth does?), I do find it curious that people who choose to go insist that the Burmese resistance, which is really the legitimate elected government of Burma, is so completely  ignorant of the economic realities of the country and the wishes of their people, as to pursue a foolish, destructive policy. "These groups" to which you refer, are dispensing information gathered from the Burmese resistance. I do find it to naive to assume a couple of weeks of backpacking imbues a more sophisticated knowledge of the political and economic complexities than a lifetime of being Burmese. Of course political strategies differ, and many opposed disinvestment in South Africa as an anti-apartheid strategy at the time, although it seems to have had a beneficial effect in ratcheting up the pressure on De Klerk. Nothing is 100%. But honestly, not having spent my life studying Burma, I do give some credit to those who have been fighting SLORC for many years. And if there’s something that I, plush Western tourist, can do to assist their struggle, I’ll do it. And it has been asked. Pretty much the same as sending a check after a major earthquake IMHO. You do what you can. Tracy Sorry, Tracy, but on this one you seem like the folks who boycott movies (e.g. Last Temptation of Christ) because someone told them it was bad. Sure, tourism is Burma is structured.  But the very local transport–pedicabs in Yangon, horsecarts in Pagan–are very much independent systems.  So are many of the "independent" cars you can take (though it may cost you black market fuel rates).  And don’t forget, just because these people live in this country and to run a business have to pay it taxes . . . does NOT mean they agree with the leadership.  Heck, Bush has just been voted in in my country and I find is views and lack of integrity elitist, opportunist and embarrasing . . . but I still have to pay taxes.  I would hope those outside the US wouldn’t equate me with my government!  Why can’t people see past the righteous propaganda and do the same with Burma.  On one of my trips there 7 years ago, the workers in the central region were just eating fish paste with rice . . . when the kyat was 100 kyat to the USD.  Now it’s 428 ky to the USD.  Can you really feel good about starving these folks out? On top of which, the major cash contributor to the economy is not tourism by a long shot!  And if you think money doesn’t trickle down from tourism, you can just imagine who keeps all the money from the gem trade, the Yadana oil fields, trade with China.   It’s great to read Amnesty Int’l and I appreciate the Burmese action groups postings as a way to keep in touch with the news, too.  But part of the key to this WHOLE story is the economics of Burma which those groups won’t put in their lit because it doesn’t back their approach.  Check out the US embassy’s economic assessment out of Yangon.   Just one last thing, we’re sitting on our plush butts in the Western world deciding whether or not we should make these people matyrs for the cause. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that most Burmese don’t want to be.  Most folks period are trying just "To Live" (as the Chinese film put it) and would forgo boycotts and politics in favor of feeding their families. Nancy

Response:

Sure, I got the sarcasm part Just wondering about the snip, it looks like a reply to Vagabond when it should have been a reply to "None". Makes poor vagabond look so activist… Roscoe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strange, I thought Vagabond has argued for "to go"… snipped the wrong text or is it just me and my Bergheimer Sometimer Alzheimer again? It was (deadpan) sarcasm. Q. To go or not to go? A. Not to go! Well argued.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I have some sympathy with that point of view, it ain’t always so. One of the problems with tourism in Burma as it’s currently structured, is that licensing for guesthouses (small and large) and "small travel agencies" is rather tightly controlled and frequently dispensed only to SLORC supporters and their family members and friends. Which suggests a couple of things: with my government!  Why can’t people see past the righteous propaganda and do the same with Burma.  On one of my trips there 7 years ago, the workers in the central region were just eating fish paste with rice . . . when the kyat was 100 kyat to the USD.  Now it’s 428 ky to the USD.  Can you really feel good about starving these folks out?

The kyat has gone to about 550 per dollar in the past month.  And the reason is not, as you imply, that some people have chosen to support the National League for Democracy’s request that tourists stay away under current circumstances.  The cause is chronic mismanagement of the economy by the military junta.  Last spring they raised military and bureaucratic salaries by a factor of five, and last month they said they’d raise them again by a factor of four.  That doesn’t address the underlying problems in the economy, it just fuels inflation. On top of which, the major cash contributor to the economy is not tourism by a long shot!

Funny that in one breath you suggest supporters of the NLD are "starving these folks out" and in the next breath suggesting that tourism is anyway not a substantial part of the economy. It’s great to read Amnesty Int’l and I appreciate the Burmese action groups postings as a way to keep in touch with the news, too.  But part of the key to this WHOLE story is the economics of Burma which those groups won’t put in their lit because it doesn’t back their approach.  Check out the US embassy’s economic assessment out of Yangon.

Do check out the US Embassy reports, as well as IMF and World Bank analyses, as well as ILO, AI and other human rights reports.  The economic analyses clearly suggest that the junta, by trying to rule the country by force, expends much too much of national wealth on its coercive apparatus, just trying to get people to do what they are ordered to do.  In addition, by running the economy to serve the political needs of the junta, they get extremely poor economic outcomes.  And it is conscious decisionmaking by the junta that provides among the lowest funding on the planet for education and public health. The poverty in Burma is the result of military rule.  Period. Just one last thing, we’re sitting on our plush butts in the Western world deciding whether or not we should make these people matyrs for the cause. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that most Burmese don’t want to be.  Most folks period are trying just "To Live" (as the Chinese film put it) and would forgo boycotts and politics in favor of feeding their families. Nancy

And the thousands of students who’ve fled Burma, who’ve sacrificed their best years in the malarial border areas, living underground and in fear inside Thailand, who support the NLD position, what do you say to them? Are they sitting on their plush butts, as you say?  Or do you prefer not to hear them?  Just curious.

Response:

Hi Nancy, We’ve discussed this issue before, and I’m not going to go on and on about it But while I don’t doubt that the people of Burma would prefer not to be martyrs to the cause (who on earth does?), I do find it curious that people who choose to go insist that the Burmese resistance, which is really the legitimate elected government of Burma, is so completely  ignorant of the economic realities of the country and the wishes of their people, as to pursue a foolish, destructive policy. "These groups" to which you refer, are dispensing information gathered from the Burmese resistance. I do find it to naive to assume a couple of weeks of backpacking imbues a more sophisticated knowledge of the political and economic complexities than a lifetime of being Burmese. Of course political strategies differ, and many opposed disinvestment in South Africa as an anti-apartheid strategy at the time, although it seems to have had a beneficial effect in ratcheting up the pressure on De Klerk. Nothing is 100%. But honestly, not having spent my life studying Burma, I do give some credit to those who have been fighting SLORC for many years. And if there’s something that I, plush Western tourist, can do to assist their struggle, I’ll do it. And it has been asked. Pretty much the same as sending a check after a major earthquake IMHO. You do what you can. Tracy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sorry, Tracy, but on this one you seem like the folks who boycott movies (e.g. Last Temptation of Christ) because someone told them it was bad. Sure, tourism is Burma is structured.  But the very local transport–pedicabs in Yangon, horsecarts in Pagan–are very much independent systems.  So are many of the "independent" cars you can take (though it may cost you black market fuel rates).  And don’t forget, just because these people live in this country and to run a business have to pay it taxes . . . does NOT mean they agree with the leadership.  Heck, Bush has just been voted in in my country and I find is views and lack of integrity elitist, opportunist and embarrasing . . . but I still have to pay taxes.  I would hope those outside the US wouldn’t equate me with my government!  Why can’t people see past the righteous propaganda and do the same with Burma.  On one of my trips there 7 years ago, the workers in the central region were just eating fish paste with rice . . . when the kyat was 100 kyat to the USD.  Now it’s 428 ky to the USD.  Can you really feel good about starving these folks out? On top of which, the major cash contributor to the economy is not tourism by a long shot!  And if you think money doesn’t trickle down from tourism, you can just imagine who keeps all the money from the gem trade, the Yadana oil fields, trade with China.   It’s great to read Amnesty Int’l and I appreciate the Burmese action groups postings as a way to keep in touch with the news, too.  But part of the key to this WHOLE story is the economics of Burma which those groups won’t put in their lit because it doesn’t back their approach.  Check out the US embassy’s economic assessment out of Yangon.   Just one last thing, we’re sitting on our plush butts in the Western world deciding whether or not we should make these people matyrs for the cause. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that most Burmese don’t want to be.  Most folks period are trying just "To Live" (as the Chinese film put it) and would forgo boycotts and politics in favor of feeding their families. Nancy

Response:

Strange, I thought Vagabond has argued for "to go"… snipped the wrong text or is it just me and my Bergheimer Sometimer Alzheimer again? Roscoe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Q. To go or not to go? A. Not to go! Well argued.

Response:

Strange, I thought Vagabond has argued for "to go"… snipped the wrong text or is it just me and my Bergheimer Sometimer Alzheimer again?

It was (deadpan) sarcasm. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Q. To go or not to go? A. Not to go! Well argued.

Response:

Q. To go or not to go? A. Not to go!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I have some sympathy with that point of view, it ain’t always so. One of the problems with tourism in Burma as it’s currently structured, is that licensing for guesthouses (small and large) and "small travel agencies" is rather tightly controlled and frequently dispensed only to SLORC supporters and their family members and friends. Which suggests a couple of things: That many of the "ordinary folks" that a backpacker is likely to encounter have reasons for saying that they do not support the boycott. (Partially accounting for the universality of such feedback). That some of the funds paid for accomodation and transport are funding the party And that folks from "small travel agencies" aren’t necessarily providing free guide service entirely from the kindness of their hearts. They may also, at least partially, be directing what is seen and what isn’t. Seeing has value, but it isn’t always wise to take everything entirely at face value, especially when its directly contradictory to what many raised in a culture and a political structure say is happening. Just something to consider. I’ll personally honor the wishes of the resistance party as I understand them. Tracy Thank you. Seeing is believing.

Sorry, Tracy, but on this one you seem like the folks who boycott movies (e.g. Last Temptation of Christ) because someone told them it was bad. Sure, tourism is Burma is structured.  But the very local transport–pedicabs in Yangon, horsecarts in Pagan–are very much independent systems.  So are many of the "independent" cars you can take (though it may cost you black market fuel rates).  And don’t forget, just because these people live in this country and to run a business have to pay it taxes . . . does NOT mean they agree with the leadership.  Heck, Bush has just been voted in in my country and I find is views and lack of integrity elitist, opportunist and embarrasing . . . but I still have to pay taxes.  I would hope those outside the US wouldn’t equate me with my government!  Why can’t people see past the righteous propaganda and do the same with Burma.  On one of my trips there 7 years ago, the workers in the central region were just eating fish paste with rice . . . when the kyat was 100 kyat to the USD.  Now it’s 428 ky to the USD.  Can you really feel good about starving these folks out? On top of which, the major cash contributor to the economy is not tourism by a long shot!  And if you think money doesn’t trickle down from tourism, you can just imagine who keeps all the money from the gem trade, the Yadana oil fields, trade with China.   It’s great to read Amnesty Int’l and I appreciate the Burmese action groups postings as a way to keep in touch with the news, too.  But part of the key to this WHOLE story is the economics of Burma which those groups won’t put in their lit because it doesn’t back their approach.  Check out the US embassy’s economic assessment out of Yangon.   Just one last thing, we’re sitting on our plush butts in the Western world deciding whether or not we should make these people matyrs for the cause. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that most Burmese don’t want to be.  Most folks period are trying just "To Live" (as the Chinese film put it) and would forgo boycotts and politics in favor of feeding their families. Nancy

Response:

What I would say here is well done Lonely Planet Guide. It would have been almost immoral for them to quit the guide. I was in Burma in 1991 and the situation was just the same then. I have the greatest respect for Aung San Suu Kyi (who on earth, apart from the Burmese generals, does not have?) but surely she has not got this quite right. No boycott of individual travellers will ever bring the generals down. The 1988 riots threatened to, but once failed, like in China, the grip tightened so that this route cannot be used again. Quite simply the generals will never loosen their power, not in the next 20 years or so anyway (in my opinion of course). I really don’t believe that there’s any hope of a solution, but to boycott independent travellers cannot help in any way. I came away from Burma with an awareness of the country and I now read the news about Burma with an interest that I would never have if I had not gone there. And this is one of the problems of Burma, very few people have an awareness of the country. I really do not believe that Lonely Planet is doing this for good business reasons. In fact, quite the opposite, I think that it would score on PR if it withdrew the book. I know the type of people too well who say things like "Engagement doesn’t help" and "This is a crisis situation, people just have to tighten their belts" over coffee at Starbuck’s. Also the  NGO’s who sit in riverside cafes in Pnohm Pehn, scoffing at you coming as a tourist, when they are there for such "caring reasons". A growing market economy is the way out of the problems of Burma and Cambodia. It’s hard to underestimate the importance of tourism in giving opportunity to the people of these countries. The independent tourist is quite possibly doing more to help Burma than anyone else here. In my experience in the meetings of the people that press for such boycotts, they all just stick to one conceited blueprint. No one at any of their meeting dares put forward a dissenting voice. Their arrogance, reaching the heights of trying to ban books suggests that they may well have more in common with the generals than it may appears. Osama

Response:

While I have some sympathy with that point of view, it ain’t always so. One of the problems with tourism in Burma as it’s currently structured, is that licensing for guesthouses (small and large) and "small travel agencies" is rather tightly controlled and frequently dispensed only to SLORC supporters and their family members and friends. Which suggests a couple of things: That many of the "ordinary folks" that a backpacker is likely to encounter have reasons for saying that they do not support the boycott. (Partially accounting for the universality of such feedback). That some of the funds paid for accomodation and transport are funding the party And that folks from "small travel agencies" aren’t necessarily providing free guide service entirely from the kindness of their hearts. They may also, at least partially, be directing what is seen and what isn’t. Seeing has value, but it isn’t always wise to take everything entirely at face value, especially when its directly contradictory to what many raised in a culture and a political structure say is happening. Just something to consider. I’ll personally honor the wishes of the resistance party as I understand them. Tracy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you. Seeing is believing.

Response:

Thank you. Seeing is believing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I spent 3weeks in Burma in Dec/Jan and have to echo Eddie’s sentiments. The route I took was way off the ‘tourist path. From Yangon, I went to Lashio (close to the Chinese border) and had no problems what so ever. In case anyone is interested, some of the photographs can be seen at http://inayath.tripod.com I went to Burma as an independant traveller for 3 weeks in March 2000 and took a mountain bike with me.  I flew to Yangon, went by bus to Mandalay, by train to Myitkina (36 hours), Bhamo, by river boat to Mandalay (36 hours), Bagan and back to Yangon by bus. Using the bike was ideal for sightseeing transport around the cities and near countryside as it allowed me to see many areas not visited by foreign visitors. I had hoped to use the bike for travelling between the towns but the lack of accommodation permitted for foreigners, distances, road conditions and schedule didn’t allow this to happen. The Burmese people I met on this trip were very kind and, I felt, genuinly pleased of my interest in their country. On a number of occasions I was escorted on sightseeing trips by them. An old gentleman near the ancient city of Ava could see that I was well off the tourist route (in fact I was completely lost and 5 miles beyond my destination) stopped me and asked if he could help. This man (a retired teacher) gave me a wonderful guided tour and only on my insistance took any payment for his expenses and time. Another young lady from a small travel agency in Myitkina accompanied me by bike around the town and countryside for an afternoon – She absolutely refused any payment. Often while cyling past tea stalls men would call out to me and invite me to watch the premier league football on TV. In Myitkina a group of students saw me and invited me to a tea stall on the banks of the Irrawaddy river. They wanted to practise English and asked if I would come to their "school" the next morning for class. After helping with pronunciations and so on they insisted on taking me for breakfast at their expense. They wouldn’t let me pay so I gave them a bunch of pens instead. At no time did I see the huge military presence and persecution of Burmese peoples that some posters would lead one to expect. I don’t deny that it goes on and am highly suspicious of the government and this being the reason for so many states that are off limits to foreigners. I got the impression that most people were too busy earning a living than fearing from persecution. Again I’m not denying that the government is repressive and that things must change in Burma. These are my unique experiences of Burma and will never be forgotten. I guess my point of this is to say that if you do visit Burma and try to use privately owned enterprises for travel, lodging and food then you will be helping the local people far more than if you stay away. Your trip will be memorable and rewarding to both yourself and the local people you meet. Eddie You can have your own "group tour" organised from Bangkok – a group is 2 people or more, with a local guide to take you around. More or less all expenses taken care of by the travel agent in BKK. They even have a way "around" the forced currency exchange at the arrival port. I have debated with myself for years if I should go to Burma or not. One issue is the forced currency exchange, if that is taken care of there is only the regime thing left. I can just imagine all those politically correct people I know crying in disgust if I tell them I am going to Burma… Come to think of it, they cry in disgust when I go to Thailand too, but for different reasons…. Vagabond  hours)

Response:

Thank you. Seeing is believing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to Burma as an independant traveller for 3 weeks in March 2000 and took a mountain bike with me.  I flew to Yangon, went by bus to Mandalay, by train to Myitkina (36 hours), Bhamo, by river boat to Mandalay (36 hours), Bagan and back to Yangon by bus. Using the bike was ideal for sightseeing transport around the cities and near countryside as it allowed me to see many areas not visited by foreign visitors. I had hoped to use the bike for travelling between the towns but the lack of accommodation permitted for foreigners, distances, road conditions and schedule didn’t allow this to happen. The Burmese people I met on this trip were very kind and, I felt, genuinly pleased of my interest in their country. On a number of occasions I was escorted on sightseeing trips by them. An old gentleman near the ancient city of Ava could see that I was well off the tourist route (in fact I was completely lost and 5 miles beyond my destination) stopped me and asked if he could help. This man (a retired teacher) gave me a wonderful guided tour and only on my insistance took any payment for his expenses and time. Another young lady from a small travel agency in Myitkina accompanied me by bike around the town and countryside for an afternoon – She absolutely refused any payment. Often while cyling past tea stalls men would call out to me and invite me to watch the premier league football on TV. In Myitkina a group of students saw me and invited me to a tea stall on the banks of the Irrawaddy river. They wanted to practise English and asked if I would come to their "school" the next morning for class. After helping with pronunciations and so on they insisted on taking me for breakfast at their expense. They wouldn’t let me pay so I gave them a bunch of pens instead. At no time did I see the huge military presence and persecution of Burmese peoples that some posters would lead one to expect. I don’t deny that it goes on and am highly suspicious of the government and this being the reason for so many states that are off limits to foreigners. I got the impression that most people were too busy earning a living than fearing from persecution. Again I’m not denying that the government is repressive and that things must change in Burma. These are my unique experiences of Burma and will never be forgotten. I guess my point of this is to say that if you do visit Burma and try to use privately owned enterprises for travel, lodging and food then you will be helping the local people far more than if you stay away. Your trip will be memorable and rewarding to both yourself and the local people you meet. Eddie You can have your own "group tour" organised from Bangkok – a group is 2 people or more, with a local guide to take you around. More or less all expenses taken care of by the travel agent in BKK. They even have a way "around" the forced currency exchange at the arrival port. I have debated with myself for years if I should go to Burma or not. One issue is the forced currency exchange, if that is taken care of there is only the regime thing left. I can just imagine all those politically correct people I know crying in disgust if I tell them I am going to Burma… Come to think of it, they cry in disgust when I go to Thailand too, but for different reasons…. Vagabond  hours)

Response:

I went to Burma as an independant traveller for 3 weeks in March 2000 and took a mountain bike with me.  I flew to Yangon, went by bus to Mandalay, by train to Myitkina (36 hours), Bhamo, by river boat to Mandalay (36 hours), Bagan and back to Yangon by bus. Using the bike was ideal for sightseeing transport around the cities and near countryside as it allowed me to see many areas not visited by foreign visitors. I had hoped to use the bike for travelling between the towns but the lack of accommodation permitted for foreigners, distances, road conditions and schedule didn’t allow this to happen. The Burmese people I met on this trip were very kind and, I felt, genuinly pleased of my interest in their country. On a number of occasions I was escorted on sightseeing trips by them. An old gentleman near the ancient city of Ava could see that I was well off the tourist route (in fact I was completely lost and 5 miles beyond my destination) stopped me and asked if he could help. This man (a retired teacher) gave me a wonderful guided tour and only on my insistance took any payment for his expenses and time. Another young lady from a small travel agency in Myitkina accompanied me by bike around the town and countryside for an afternoon – She absolutely refused any payment. Often while cyling past tea stalls men would call out to me and invite me to watch the premier league football on TV. In Myitkina a group of students saw me and invited me to a tea stall on the banks of the Irrawaddy river. They wanted to practise English and asked if I would come to their "school" the next morning for class. After helping with pronunciations and so on they insisted on taking me for breakfast at their expense. They wouldn’t let me pay so I gave them a bunch of pens instead. At no time did I see the huge military presence and persecution of Burmese peoples that some posters would lead one to expect. I don’t deny that it goes on and am highly suspicious of the government and this being the reason for so many states that are off limits to foreigners. I got the impression that most people were too busy earning a living than fearing from persecution. Again I’m not denying that the government is repressive and that things must change in Burma. These are my unique experiences of Burma and will never be forgotten. I guess my point of this is to say that if you do visit Burma and try to use privately owned enterprises for travel, lodging and food then you will be helping the local people far more than if you stay away. Your trip will be memorable and rewarding to both yourself and the local people you meet. Eddie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can have your own "group tour" organised from Bangkok – a group is 2 people or more, with a local guide to take you around. More or less all expenses taken care of by the travel agent in BKK. They even have a way "around" the forced currency exchange at the arrival port. I have debated with myself for years if I should go to Burma or not. One issue is the forced currency exchange, if that is taken care of there is only the regime thing left. I can just imagine all those politically correct people I know crying in disgust if I tell them I am going to Burma… Come to think of it, they cry in disgust when I go to Thailand too, but for different reasons…. Vagabond  hours)

Response:

I spent 3weeks in Burma in Dec/Jan and have to echo Eddie’s sentiments. The route I took was way off the ‘tourist path. From Yangon, I went to Lashio (close to the Chinese border) and had no problems what so ever. In case anyone is interested, some of the photographs can be seen at http://inayath.tripod.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to Burma as an independant traveller for 3 weeks in March 2000 and took a mountain bike with me.  I flew to Yangon, went by bus to Mandalay, by train to Myitkina (36 hours), Bhamo, by river boat to Mandalay (36 hours), Bagan and back to Yangon by bus. Using the bike was ideal for sightseeing transport around the cities and near countryside as it allowed me to see many areas not visited by foreign visitors. I had hoped to use the bike for travelling between the towns but the lack of accommodation permitted for foreigners, distances, road conditions and schedule didn’t allow this to happen. The Burmese people I met on this trip were very kind and, I felt, genuinly pleased of my interest in their country. On a number of occasions I was escorted on sightseeing trips by them. An old gentleman near the ancient city of Ava could see that I was well off the tourist route (in fact I was completely lost and 5 miles beyond my destination) stopped me and asked if he could help. This man (a retired teacher) gave me a wonderful guided tour and only on my insistance took any payment for his expenses and time. Another young lady from a small travel agency in Myitkina accompanied me by bike around the town and countryside for an afternoon – She absolutely refused any payment. Often while cyling past tea stalls men would call out to me and invite me to watch the premier league football on TV. In Myitkina a group of students saw me and invited me to a tea stall on the banks of the Irrawaddy river. They wanted to practise English and asked if I would come to their "school" the next morning for class. After helping with pronunciations and so on they insisted on taking me for breakfast at their expense. They wouldn’t let me pay so I gave them a bunch of pens instead. At no time did I see the huge military presence and persecution of Burmese peoples that some posters would lead one to expect. I don’t deny that it goes on and am highly suspicious of the government and this being the reason for so many states that are off limits to foreigners. I got the impression that most people were too busy earning a living than fearing from persecution. Again I’m not denying that the government is repressive and that things must change in Burma. These are my unique experiences of Burma and will never be forgotten. I guess my point of this is to say that if you do visit Burma and try to use privately owned enterprises for travel, lodging and food then you will be helping the local people far more than if you stay away. Your trip will be memorable and rewarding to both yourself and the local people you meet. Eddie You can have your own "group tour" organised from Bangkok – a group is 2 people or more, with a local guide to take you around. More or less all expenses taken care of by the travel agent in BKK. They even have a way "around" the forced currency exchange at the arrival port. I have debated with myself for years if I should go to Burma or not. One issue is the forced currency exchange, if that is taken care of there is only the regime thing left. I can just imagine all those politically correct people I know crying in disgust if I tell them I am going to Burma… Come to think of it, they cry in disgust when I go to Thailand too, but for different reasons…. Vagabond  hours)

Response:

While package tourism might indeed fill the pockets of the upper class (just think of the tourist projects by the Suharto dictatorship), low scale, individual tourism does indeed help the local population.

That is to say: Don

Question:

Sorry Gaetan, I have to disagree with the above statement due to the INVOICE date. Snuka said the invoice was dated Nov. 4, 2000.  This is the first date she can use to book the charges.  Just because the work is done in October does not give her knowledge of the charges accrued.  She must have an invoice to book.  Without the invoice we do not know the exact cost of the complete work. The fact that her supplier (vendor) is late billing does not change the book date. If it were a significant expense and year end intervened; she should create a footnote and maybe an estimated liability. Something to the effect that renovation of the headquarters building has been completed but not all charges have been booked. We have estimated this liability. Susan Erickson Hi Snuka, As you noted in your message about accrual accounting, the revenue is recognized when it is earned NOT paid AND expenses are recognized when incurred.  The Nov 4 invoice for October purchases (service, etc) must, under accrued accounting, be recognized as an ACRRUED LIABILITY in October.  Having said that, it may

Accrual accounting reports when charges are billed and when invoices are received. So, my question is if I get an invoice in November (ie. dated Nov 4,2000) for work that was done in October, How should that be reflected (if, at all)

Response:

Hi Snuka Rule #1 – The BOSS is always right! Rule #2 – If the BOSS is wrong, see rule #1. Addendum – It’s OK for the IRS to tell your BOSS he’s wrong<G TTUL Gary

Response:

Hi Snuka, As you noted in your message about accrual accounting, the revenue is recognized when it is earned NOT paid AND expenses are recognized when incurred.  The Nov 4 invoice for October purchases (service, etc) must, under accrued accounting, be recognized as an ACRRUED LIABILITY in October.  Having said that, it may be that for your operation, the adjustment may not be material and could be left unadjusted for October. When you referenced Cost Reporting, I think that what you really wanted to say was Cash accounting.  The 2 most common approaches are Cash Accounting and Accrual Accounting.  Here in Canada, Cash accounting is restricted to farmers and commerical fisherman ONLY.  All other organizations must use the accrual method. Gaetan Albert – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this is a basic question but a response to an earlier post of mine prompts me to ask. Loosely defined, Cost accounting reports when money is received and paid out. Accrual accounting reports when charges are billed and when invoices are received. So, my question is if I get an invoice in November (ie. dated Nov 4,2000) for work that was done in October, How should that be reflected (if, at all) in my financial statements?  My boss says it should be in my October statements but somebody in the ng said it should be in the November.  I’m hoping my boss is wrong because it would make my job easier but I need something more concrete than ‘I read on the newgroup that it is this way’…

Response:

I think you are confusing some basic accounting terminology, and perhaps have misinterpreted what you read here previously (or maybe the earlier advice was wrong!) Your first definition is for "cash-basis reporting", not cost accounting. Your second definition describes day-to-day bookkeeping procedures, but is incomplete.  As Randy replied, your boss is technically correct but in  practice it is generally done by recording bills/invoices as of their dates.  However, there are times when it is appropriate to record an "accrual adjustment" – if the amount is "material".  These are decisions usually made by "the boss" and/or professional accountants, not by "staff".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this is a basic question but a response to an earlier post of mine prompts me to ask. Loosely defined, Cost accounting reports when money is received and paid out. Accrual accounting reports when charges are billed and when invoices are received. So, my question is if I get an invoice in November (ie. dated Nov 4,2000) for work that was done in October, How should that be reflected (if, at all) in my financial statements?  My boss says it should be in my October statements but somebody in the ng said it should be in the November.  I’m hoping my boss is wrong because it would make my job easier but I need something more concrete than ‘I read on the newgroup that it is

this way’…

Response:

I know this is a basic question but a response to an earlier post of mine prompts me to ask. Loosely defined, Cost accounting reports when money is received and paid out. Accrual accounting reports when charges are billed and when invoices are received. So, my question is if I get an invoice in November (ie. dated Nov 4,2000) for work that was done in October, How should that be reflected (if, at all) in my financial statements?  My boss says it should be in my October statements but somebody in the ng said it should be in the November.  I’m hoping my boss is wrong because it would make my job easier but I need something more concrete than ‘I read on the newgroup that it is this way’…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this is a basic question but a response to an earlier post of mine prompts me to ask. Loosely defined, Cost accounting reports when money is received and paid out. Accrual accounting reports when charges are billed and when invoices are received. So, my question is if I get an invoice in November (ie. dated Nov 4,2000) for work that was done in October, How should that be reflected (if, at all) in my financial statements?  My boss says it should be in my October statements but somebody in the ng said it should be in the November.  I’m hoping my boss is wrong because it would make my job easier but I need something more concrete than ‘I read on the newgroup that it is this way’…

Your boss is technically correct, but in practice most people will just use the invoice date.  You should allocate the expense to the period when the benefit was received, i.e. when the work was done.  Practically speaking, in some situations this can be a lot of work for very little benefit to anyone. — **This message  is for discussion purposes only and does not constitute professional advice of any kind.**

Response:

Question:

Thank you, Mr. T. A better explanation of our position I have not seen. Joe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Facts

Response:

Thank you, Mr. T. A better explanation of our position I have not seen. Joe

THANK YOU JOE The Facts

http://members.aol.com/TKONKLE/comedy.html

Response:

The Facts S.A.G./A.F.T.R.A. wants actors to receive "Pay-Per-Play" for broadcast network and cable network commercial usage. Pay-Per-Play means an advertiser pays an actor each time a commercial airs. Pay-Per-Play is the only system that fairly compensates actors in accordance to their actual exposure. When an advertiser chooses to use a commercial many times, the actor in the commercial becomes over-exposed, her image indelibly linked with the product being sold. Given the actor’s strong association with the product, other advertisers refuse to cast her. The greater the over-exposure, the longer the unemployment. Pay-Per-Play means advertisers only pay for actual usage of a commercial. Flat fees force smaller advertisers to pay a premium when a commercial only airs a few times. $4,200 for "one day’s work" is a lie. Under the advertisers’ last offer, an actor is only guaranteed $500, the amount paid to perform in a commercial. If the commercial does not play or is "held"-a common occurrence-the actor receives no additional money in the first cycle. The actor is also contractually barred from appearing in any other commercial selling a competing product. If the commercial does play on broadcast network television, the $500 already paid to the actor is applied to the $2,575 flat fee. This means the actor really only receives a $2,075 payment for unlimited use. If the commercial plays on a cable network, the maximum the actor can earn is $1,627. If commercial airs on a limited number of major cable networks, the actor would receive far less. The only people earning a guaranteed $4,202 a day are the attorneys negotiating on behalf of advertisers. Based upon data just released by McCann-Erickson Worldwide, Actor payments now make up less than 1 % of the total cost to produce and air commercials. Currently actors earn a maximum of $11 a day for unlimited use of a commercial on cable television. Advertisers claim the S.A.G./A.F.T.R.A. cable proposal amounts to a 350% increase. Even if the advertisers’ unproven allegation were true, an actor would earn $38.50 a day for unlimited cable usage of a commercial– Less than the minimum wage. Advertisers say they are offering a 60% increase in cable residual rates. Their latest offer is only an 11% increase. $29 million dollars of the "60% cable increase" comes from a $29 million decrease in broadcast network payments. S.A.G./A.F.T.R.A. wants Internet usage included in the commercial contract. Advertisers say they don’t have the authority to include Internet usage in the commercial contract even though they’ve already spent millions buying and creating Internet-only advertising agencies. Advertisers refuse to provide accurate monitoring records of commercial usage. They demand we trust them. A S.A.G. monitoring study of 38 commercials uncovered over $110,000 in unpaid wages. The study reveals actors can’t afford to trust advertisers. Advertisers say the pay-per-play system is flawed because networks are capturing only 50% of all television viewers as compared to 90% in 1970. They fail to mention that the number of total television viewers has grown by 66% in the last thirty years Network is just as valuable today as it ever was. And, since cable now delivers nearly the same share as the big six networks, it deserves the same payment system. Despite the notion that actors earn millions – 80% of S.A.G. members earn less than $5000 a year. Advertising revenues are up dramatically. According to Advertising Age, total gross income for the top 500 U.S. based ad agencies increased by over 22% in 1999. Additionally, an accounting by the Cabletelevision Advertising Bureau revealed a 33% gain in cable ad billings to over $10,000,000,000 ($10 billion.)

Response:

Question:

Unless a vendor at one of the Web sites listed below has drastically reduced prices in recent days, NONE is as inexpensive as the Hospital Center Pharmacy (mail order, 1-800-824-2401) at $51 per 100 One Touch strips or Diabetic Express (mail order, 1-800-338-4656) at $31 per 100 CheckMate Plus strips. DKC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Also try Oxystat at http://www.oxystat.com/diabetes or 800 767-7828 You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike Check out the following website which has phone numbers of several online and mail order daibetes suppliers: http://www.castleweb.com/diabetes/D_06_900.HTM I have no affiliation.  Just passing along the info. Ramsey

– David Cohler, South Pasadena

Response:

You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources?

Roxanne Goldberg replied: Please try Diabetes Forecast!  There are several advertisers in the monthly issue.  They have test strips for around $ 51.00 or so per hundred.  They also charge a nominal fee for postage.  I can think of 2 of them: Diabetes Promotions and Diabetes Express.  There are more.

Not only can you find good prices via mail order, you can also benefit from the rapid turnover of the volume sellers to get fresh supplies with excellent expiration dates.  for example, i just purchased seven boxes of 100 medisense precision QID strips for my ‘pen 2′ meter for 49.75/box, and their expiration date is 28 feb 1997!!!  it really was worth the time to make a few calls. (and something i haven’t heard mentioned too often, but seems to be impossible for lifescan: the medisense and glucometer elite strips all come packaged in individual foil wrappers so you can carry two or three with you during the day to work, on a hike, etc. lifescan appears to have given up on foil strips — their customer service rep didn’t want to talk about it last time i called and asked.) cheers, -jonathan

Response:

Try Penny Saver Drug in Denver:  1-800-748-1909 They are very competitive IMHO, ship by mail or UPS, accept plastic and send COD if necessary. — |Jim Devenport                                          | |All Standard Disclaimers Disclaimed                    | |My views rarely (if ever) reflect those of my employers|

Response:

You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike

Check out the following website which has phone numbers of several online and mail order daibetes suppliers: http://www.castleweb.com/diabetes/D_06_900.HTM I have no affiliation.  Just passing along the info. Ramsey

Response:

Also try Oxystat at http://www.oxystat.com/diabetes or 800 767-7828 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike Check out the following website which has phone numbers of several online and mail order daibetes suppliers: http://www.castleweb.com/diabetes/D_06_900.HTM I have no affiliation.  Just passing along the info. Ramsey

Response:

You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike

Response:

If you are a member of ADA and receive Diabetic Forecast magazine you will find several pharmacies advertising which lists Lifescan One Touch test strips for $ 51.29 per 100…there is a 2 or 3 dollar shipping charge so the cost is much lower than what you are now paying. I have used Hospital Center Pharmacy in Boston for test strips for years…they ship promptly and take credit cards. Their number is 1-800-824-2401. I’m sure there are others listed that do just as well. Call them for information on prices and etc. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike Mail order is my business, Mike, and I haven’t seen any either.  I’ll talk to a few mail order people in this area and see if I can locate what you are looking for.  If I do, I’ll post. Cheryl

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike Mail order is my business, Mike, and I haven’t seen any either.  I’ll talk to a few mail order people in this area and see if I can locate what you are looking for.  If I do, I’ll post. Cheryl

Please try Diabetes Forecast!  There are several advertisers in the monthly issue.  They have test strips for around $ 51.00 or so per hundred.  They also charge a nominal fee for postage.  I can think of 2 of them: Diabetes Promotions and Diabetes Express.  There are more.                                           Roxanne —       Roxanne Goldberg, CPA         Tax topic pages:       P.O. Box 0116             http://www.telesphere.com/ts/rgcpa       Wyncote, Pa.  19095-0116  http://www.mindspring.com/~maia/c56.html       (fast snail mail address) http://www.geopages.com/CapitolHill/1099        Member ANA, BCCS, EAC, ICTA, JRCS, and, of course PICPA.                     Accounting is a taxing profession.

Response:

You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike

Mail order is my business, Mike, and I haven’t seen any either.  I’ll talk to a few mail order people in this area and see if I can locate what you are looking for.  If I do, I’ll post. Cheryl

Response:

Question:

Are you serious? Sugar at University of Waterloo, at Fed Hall? That really bites, cause they will never come up to Ottawa, unless they make a wrong turn on the way to Montreal.

Response:

Sugar (Bob Mould, etc..) will be in Waterloo, Ontario on WED Nov. 9

Any othe Canadian dates? TIA, Greg. |                                                                        | |     Disclaimer: I’m not quite sure who I speak for.                    | |                                                                        | |     "I’m a citizen of Legoland travellin Incommunicado" – Fish         |

Response:

Sugar (Bob Mould, etc..) will be in Waterloo, Ontario on WED Nov. 9 at Fed Hall on Campus at the Uniuversity of Waterloo Tickets are only Ten Bucks ($10) Show went on sale toady Can be bought at HMV in Guelph and Waterloo as well as UW Stephen Who will be going please phone your Campus Radio station and local cool Station CFNY etc ThANKS

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Show went on sale toady

Hey, I ain’t yer toady!  :-) JJU — University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA It is not always easy to translate the customary accounting data back into actual dollars – dollars you can buy beer with. Principles of Corporate Finance, 2nd Cdn. Ed., p. 100

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Show went on sale toady Hey, I ain’t yer toady!  :-)

i love the toadies…great band. It is not always easy to translate the customary accounting data back into actual dollars – dollars you can buy beer with.

yeah, i took accounting once, and never got any beer out of it at all… — the snow may well thaw out, but it goes right down the drain                                                    -bob mould

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Any othe Canadian dates?

Only in Toronto tonight (Nov. and in Waterloo tomorrow (Nov.9).  There’s still plenty of tickets left as I just bought a few more for friends today. As far as I know they won’t be playing any other Canadian dates. *TYLER MOSHER aka A.F.U. aka DETOX   "Don’t just stand there and shout it, * *UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO               do something about it."              * *CHEMICAL ENGINEERING                 Depeche Mode, Judas                  *

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