Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am currently studying for CIMA, and have worked as a Management Accountant and Auditor for the past ten years – however, this is the first time I have been asked to become treasurer of a social club and, obviously, I want to make a good job of it, which includes providing the members with "informative" accounts which was the main reason for my post. The club itself does not have an accountant as the treausurer role has been filled by members who have a basic knowledge of book-keeping rather than year end accounts.  The format in the past was to show how much money came in during the year and how much went out – and the balance was the "profit" (surplus of income over expenditure – in most cases).  However, my feeling is that the accoutns do not present the members with enough information – which as I have said before is the reason for my post. Can anyone else help? Well, what additional information do you think the members want/need? Don’t see that there’s anything for it but to sit down and decide what it is you think is useful and present it.  Of course, as soon as you do, you’ll then have to create a bookkeeping set of accounts that will provide sufficient detail to generate the reports.  Depending on the size of the club, simply knowing that they’re covering costs with a little to spare may be all that anybody really cares about.  If it’s a really decent-sized organization (or there’s any hint of either a problem or the income <doesn’t cover expenses) there may be reason to be more fussy.

VAT is payble /  recovereable form Customs & Excise not Inland Revenue and is a Balance Sheet item not P&L – what accounting package do you use to record income & expenditue?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am currently studying for CIMA, and have worked as a Management Accountant and Auditor for the past ten years – however, this is the first time I have been asked to become treasurer of a social club and, obviously, I want to make a good job of it, which includes providing the members with "informative" accounts which was the main reason for my post. The club itself does not have an accountant as the treausurer role has been filled by members who have a basic knowledge of book-keeping rather than year end accounts.  The format in the past was to show how much money came in during the year and how much went out – and the balance was the "profit" (surplus of income over expenditure – in most cases).  However, my feeling is that the accoutns do not present the members with enough information – which as I have said before is the reason for my post. Can anyone else help?

Well, what additional information do you think the members want/need? Don’t see that there’s anything for it but to sit down and decide what it is you think is useful and present it.  Of course, as soon as you do, you’ll then have to create a bookkeeping set of accounts that will provide sufficient detail to generate the reports.  Depending on the size of the club, simply knowing that they’re covering costs with a little to spare may be all that anybody really cares about.  If it’s a really decent-sized organization (or there’s any hint of either a problem or the income <doesn’t cover expenses) there may be reason to be more fussy.

Response:

I have been asked to become treasurer of a small local sports and social club (less than 100 members). Our main income is obviously from yearly subscriptions and profits from our bar area.  We also have a snooker table which members use via a light meter and a fruit machine which also provides some small income. There is a steward who receives a wage from the club and mainly deals with serving behind the bar, but also some other admin duties (paying cash into the bank, etc). The club owns the building it is based, and has a small loan from a bank. My main questions are: In what format "should" (as far as I am aware there are not set standards here in the UK for social clubs) the yearly accounts and balance sheet be shown.  I believe that the format used in the past may not provide the best information to the members. Also, we obviously pay the VAT element of the bar sales to the Inland Revenue whilst claiming VAT back from bar supplies purchased.  Should I show the gross amounts in the "Bar Trading Account" and then show VAT paid to the Inland Revenue in the Expenditure section of the "Income and Expenditure Account" or should everything be shown irrespective of VAT?  My feeling is that it doesn’t make all that much difference – but I could be wrong on this. In respect of income from the snooker table and the fruit machine, should these be shown in the "Bar Trading Account"?  If this is a matter of decision and we decide to do so, should the "Bar Trading Account" be re-named "Trading Account"? Whilst paying the steward, the cost of wages is included within the "Bar Trading Account" as an additional expense, however, should the NI contributions paid by the club be also included, or should these be shwon in the "Income and Expenditure Account" under a separate heading? Finally, does anyone know of a website or such that provides a basic format of reporting such accounts? Many thanks in advance Steve Flanagan

Response:

It seems to me you would be foolish to take on this responsibility, with your current knowledge and experience, without first talking to the club’s accountant. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked to become treasurer of a small local sports and social club (less than 100 members). Our main income is obviously from yearly subscriptions and profits from our bar area.  We also have a snooker table which members use via a light meter and a fruit machine which also provides some small income. There is a steward who receives a wage from the club and mainly deals with serving behind the bar, but also some other admin duties (paying cash into the bank, etc). The club owns the building it is based, and has a small loan from a bank. My main questions are: In what format "should" (as far as I am aware there are not set standards here in the UK for social clubs) the yearly accounts and balance sheet be shown.  I believe that the format used in the past may not provide the best information to the members. Also, we obviously pay the VAT element of the bar sales to the Inland Revenue whilst claiming VAT back from bar supplies purchased.  Should I show the gross amounts in the "Bar Trading Account" and then show VAT paid to the Inland Revenue in the Expenditure section of the "Income and Expenditure Account" or should everything be shown irrespective of VAT?  My feeling is that it doesn’t make all that much difference – but I could be wrong on this. In respect of income from the snooker table and the fruit machine, should these be shown in the "Bar Trading Account"?  If this is a matter of decision and we decide to do so, should the "Bar Trading Account" be re-named "Trading Account"? Whilst paying the steward, the cost of wages is included within the "Bar Trading Account" as an additional expense, however, should the NI contributions paid by the club be also included, or should these be shwon in the "Income and Expenditure Account" under a separate heading? Finally, does anyone know of a website or such that provides a basic format of reporting such accounts? Many thanks in advance Steve Flanagan

Response:

I am currently studying for CIMA, and have worked as a Management Accountant and Auditor for the past ten years – however, this is the first time I have been asked to become treasurer of a social club and, obviously, I want to make a good job of it, which includes providing the members with "informative" accounts which was the main reason for my post. The club itself does not have an accountant as the treausurer role has been filled by members who have a basic knowledge of book-keeping rather than year end accounts.  The format in the past was to show how much money came in during the year and how much went out – and the balance was the "profit" (surplus of income over expenditure – in most cases).  However, my feeling is that the accoutns do not present the members with enough information – which as I have said before is the reason for my post. Can anyone else help? Cheers Steve Flanagan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems to me you would be foolish to take on this responsibility, with your current knowledge and experience, without first talking to the club’s accountant. I have been asked to become treasurer of a small local sports and social club (less than 100 members). Our main income is obviously from yearly subscriptions and profits from our bar area.  We also have a snooker table which members use via a light meter and a fruit machine which also provides some small income. There is a steward who receives a wage from the club and mainly deals with serving behind the bar, but also some other admin duties (paying cash into the bank, etc). The club owns the building it is based, and has a small loan from a bank. My main questions are: In what format "should" (as far as I am aware there are not set standards here in the UK for social clubs) the yearly accounts and balance sheet be shown.  I believe that the format used in the past may not provide the best information to the members. Also, we obviously pay the VAT element of the bar sales to the Inland Revenue whilst claiming VAT back from bar supplies purchased.  Should I show the gross amounts in the "Bar Trading Account" and then show VAT paid to the Inland Revenue in the Expenditure section of the "Income and Expenditure Account" or should everything be shown irrespective of VAT?  My feeling is that it doesn’t make all that much difference – but I could be wrong on this. In respect of income from the snooker table and the fruit machine, should these be shown in the "Bar Trading Account"?  If this is a matter of decision and we decide to do so, should the "Bar Trading Account" be re-named "Trading Account"? Whilst paying the steward, the cost of wages is included within the "Bar Trading Account" as an additional expense, however, should the NI contributions paid by the club be also included, or should these be shwon in the "Income and Expenditure Account" under a separate heading? Finally, does anyone know of a website or such that provides a basic format of reporting such accounts? Many thanks in advance Steve Flanagan

Response:

Question:

http://www.time.com/time/personoftheyear/2003/story.html

Response:

http://www.time.com/time/personoftheyear/2003/story.html

It’s about fucking time, Time

Question:

any info on pay roll

Response:

What kind of info do you need? Don   Regards,   Donald A Haney, MBA   Emergency Care Specialists, PC   "Learning occurs in the mind, independent of time and place." – Plato   any info on pay roll

Response:

Ours is on the 15th and the 30th of each month.  Does that help? You are going to have to be a little more specific as to what kind of information you require.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any info on pay roll

Response:

Denis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ours is on the 15th and the 30th of each month.  Does that help? You are going to have to be a little more specific as to what kind of information you require. any info on pay roll

Response:

There is a web service, AllExperts.com, which seems to offer free answers from credible persons. http://www.allexperts.com/getExpert.asp?Category=1418 Category: Accounting & Payroll & Pension Issues Example: http://www.allexperts.com/displayExpert.asp?Expert=848                     Robert W. LaRose, CPP       I have been in payroll for over 18 years. I receive my Certified payroll Profesional (CPP) designiation in 1997. I write for a newsletter for                     payroll managers. I am on the board of directors of the Conn. chapter of                     the American Payroll Association, and I could field questions in:                     1) Overtime calculation (Fail Labor Standards Act)                     2) When to deposit 941 taxes                     3) Wage and Hour questions                     4) Taxable fringe benefits                     5) Payroll convrsions (software and outside payroll services)                     6) General payroll and labor law questions Please let me know the advice quality.  After all, free bad advice might be too expensive. Respectfully,  - Carl www.cpaccess.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -any info on pay roll

Response:

<SNIP I am on the board of directors of the Conn. chapter of                     the American Payroll Association, and I could field questions in:                     1) Overtime calculation (Fail Labor Standards Act)

OK, is it just me, or is this a GREAT typo? LOL Tony — The graveyards are full of indispensable people. –   Charles de Gaulle

Response:

 just starated doing some accounting work from home.  i need help to get a good and not expnsive pay roll soft ware for small business. Thank you Nawal —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Nawal, You can get a complete accounting program (including payroll) for $25 by calling toll free to (800)365-6790.  Tell them you want to order the program approved by the SBA.  Have your credit card ready and they will ship it to you priority mail.  By the way, the CD includes 51 sessions of training. Your software will have payroll, general ledger, accounts payable, and accounts receivable.  You can print W-2s, do 1099s and run financial statements.  Or, if you prefer, you can just use the payroll.  Whatever you do, you can’t go wrong for $25. That should take care of you. Arnold – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  just starated doing some accounting work from home.  i need help to get a good and not expnsive pay roll soft ware for small business. Thank you Nawal —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

before you call or send any money run a google on the telephone # and check out the website to see if the accounting software is appropriate for your needs,  you can go wrong for $25 !

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nawal, You can get a complete accounting program (including payroll) for $25 by calling toll free to (800)365-6790.  Tell them you want to order the program approved by the SBA.  Have your credit card ready and they will ship it to you priority mail.  By the way, the CD includes 51 sessions of training. Your software will have payroll, general ledger, accounts payable, and accounts receivable.  You can print W-2s, do 1099s and run financial statements.  Or, if you prefer, you can just use the payroll.  Whatever you do, you can’t go wrong for $25. That should take care of you. Arnold  just starated doing some accounting work from home.  i need help to get a good and not expnsive pay roll soft ware for small business. Thank you Nawal —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Check out PenSoft Payroll at www.pensoft.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just starated doing some accounting work from home.  i need help to get a good and not expnsive pay roll soft ware for small business. Thank you Nawal —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

Hi, I owe ebay money from listing fees etc. However they cannot take from my card automatically as my cards been renewed, I was wondering is it possible to get out of paying them. Or do they sell the debt to bailiffs or debt collectors etc? Has anyone had trouble before? P.S I’m in the UK

Response:

I owe ebay money from listing fees etc. However they cannot take from my card automatically as my cards been renewed,

Your card has been renewed? So has myne. Doesn’t matter IF the credit card number is the same, which it should be. I was wondering is it possible to get out of paying them. Or do they sell the debt to bailiffs or debt collectors etc?

Actually no, they don’t. They simply come to your house in the middle of the night, strip you naked, throw you outside, cover you in honey, and then anger a bees nest and hornets nest and let the bees and hornets do what they like. Has anyone had trouble before?

What trouble? Trying to get out of a debt you owe? Pay the money you owe eBay. Don’t be a damn cheapskate. PS: What is your ebay ID, so in the case you DO pay, I can block you from bidding on my auctions. And, please don’t buy from me. Anyone with moral standards as low as yours doesn’t deserve a computer. P.S I’m in the UK

Uhh like that matters. — To reply, remove TheObvious from my e-mail address.

Response:

I owe ebay money from listing fees etc. However they cannot take from my card automatically as my cards been renewed, I was wondering is it possible to get out of paying them.

So, let me get this straight. You got a service from eBay at a rate at which you agreed to when you signed on, and now you don’t want to pay? I don’t know what they call that in the UK, but in the US I’d call that a /thief/. It depends on how much you owe as to whether they’ll come after you. First, of course, you’ll be NARU’d for life. If it’s just a small amount, they’ll just wreck your credit. Hope you weren’t planning on buying a house or car anytime soon. For a large amount, they’ll get you. Pay your bills, lame-boy. — Bob

Response:

I owe ebay money from listing fees etc. However they cannot take from my card automatically as my cards been renewed, I was wondering is it possible to get out of paying them. So, let me get this straight. You got a service from eBay at a rate at which you agreed to when you signed on, and now you don’t want to pay?

Seems like he’ll comfortably fit in with some of the resident fee avoiders we have here.  Then again maybe not since he’s too damn honest by telling us that he wants to cheat eBay. Rita

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would consider a low end item to be any item that sells for less than $10. It makes no sense whatsoever to try and sell $10 items on eBay. The minimum breakeven is $19.63. Gee Don  -  I just looked at my bank account to see if all the items I am selling for $3 & $4, with about a 10 mark-up is driving me to the poor house – I was surprised to see the old account is still growing I hope everybody listens to you and your $19 minimum — then I will have the under $10 market all to myself and get filthy rich Cheers John Let see: Lets sell an item for 9.99! Cost of item: nothing (you found it in the basement, got it for free or were about to toss it anyway and decided to give ebay a try. Obviously this isnt true if you buy 20 skids of "dollar store" merchandise for 279.00 a skid. So dont do that. Cost of business premesis: Nothing. You work in a corner of the basement that you didnt use for anything else anyway. And who wants to rent your basement anyway? Cost of labor: nothing. Sure you did some work, but you did it at the time of your choice when you had absolutly nothing else to do. Maybe you even enjoyed the novelty of packing a box after a day of doing something else. And you are alowed to watch tv, BS with your  friends on the phone, drink coffee, get stoned, whatever while you work. After all, you make the rules. Cost of materials: nothing. You use free used boxes, free stuff from the post office or USP, crap you scavenge from the trash from your jobs mailroom, whatever. Of course this doesnt work if you brashly purchase 1000 new boxes from Staples. So dont do that. Cost of listing:  30 cents Ebay commission: 5%. Even less if the thing accidently sells for $100. Which it will, once every two or three years. Cost for PP: nothing. ’cause its dumb to use it for something which might cost more to ship than to buy. So dont use it. Cost for internet: Nothing. You know damn well you got it to download music and warez. Or dirty pictures. If ebay is the only reason you got hooked up, get a 9.99 monthly dial-up. Or go to the library once a week. Travel costs: nothing. Dont mail anything unless you are going past the post office for another reason. Drop stuff that weighs less than a pound in the mailbox. If necessary explain in your item description that you are just a kid and only get to go to town once a week. Most sellers take so long to mail stuff anyway you will fit right in. Looks like over 90% profit to me. What business wouldnt do this if they could. The secret is a big business cant operate like this. But you can. Stick with the formula and you will make money. Start playing bigshot and buying lotsa junk to mark up and you will be back to working for $1 an hour and cryin’ the blues here. And all you have to do is continuously repeat the above utter fantasy 4400 times a year without ANY subsidies or ANY costs or ANY support or ANY help or ANY time to make a marginal income. Most eBay sellers do not have the faintest clue over the REAL expenses of their auction activities. Read up on the economic value of excluded opportunity sometime.

Uh-oh. Looks like I pushed the wrong button. Geez….dont take it so personally.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gee Don  -  I just looked at my bank account to see if all the items I am selling for $3 & $4, with about a 10 mark-up is driving me to the poor house – I was surprised to see the old account is still growing I hope everybody listens to you and your $19 minimum — then I will have the under $10 market all to myself and get filthy rich Judging by some of the stuff he’s not selling in his auctions, and it seems like it is just about everything, I’m sure that you are still outperforming him even if you sell your items at a loss.

Thanks Rita

Response:

<SNIPPED Fred, is that you? Rita

LOL, no mention of sparedollar so I doubt it hehe. we love ya fred so COME BACK!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would consider a low end item to be any item that sells for less than $10. It makes no sense whatsoever to try and sell $10 items on eBay. The minimum breakeven is $19.63. Gee Don  -  I just looked at my bank account to see if all the items I am selling for $3 & $4, with about a 10 mark-up is driving me to the poor house – I was surprised to see the old account is still growing I hope everybody listens to you and your $19 minimum — then I will have the under $10 market all to myself and get filthy rich Cheers John

Let see: Lets sell an item for 9.99! Cost of item: nothing (you found it in the basement, got it for free or were about to toss it anyway and decided to give ebay a try. Obviously this isnt true if you buy 20 skids of "dollar store" merchandise for 279.00 a skid. So dont do that. Cost of business premesis: Nothing. You work in a corner of the basement that you didnt use for anything else anyway. And who wants to rent your basement anyway? Cost of labor: nothing. Sure you did some work, but you did it at the time of your choice when you had absolutly nothing else to do. Maybe you even enjoyed the novelty of packing a box after a day of doing something else. And you are alowed to watch tv, BS with your  friends on the phone, drink coffee, get stoned, whatever while you work. After all, you make the rules. Cost of materials: nothing. You use free used boxes, free stuff from the post office or USP, crap you scavenge from the trash from your jobs mailroom, whatever. Of course this doesnt work if you brashly purchase 1000 new boxes from Staples. So dont do that. Cost of listing:  30 cents Ebay commission: 5%. Even less if the thing accidently sells for $100. Which it will, once every two or three years. Cost for PP: nothing. ’cause its dumb to use it for something which might cost more to ship than to buy. So dont use it. Cost for internet: Nothing. You know damn well you got it to download music and warez. Or dirty pictures. If ebay is the only reason you got hooked up, get a 9.99 monthly dial-up. Or go to the library once a week. Travel costs: nothing. Dont mail anything unless you are going past the post office for another reason. Drop stuff that weighs less than a pound in the mailbox. If necessary explain in your item description that you are just a kid and only get to go to town once a week. Most sellers take so long to mail stuff anyway you will fit right in. Looks like over 90% profit to me. What business wouldnt do this if they could. The secret is a big business cant operate like this. But you can. Stick with the formula and you will make money. Start playing bigshot and buying lotsa junk to mark up and you will be back to working for $1 an hour and cryin’ the blues here.

Response:

Congrats to all of you successful ebay sellers,I hope your good fortune continues; it’s hard to believe that you’re unaffected by the economy. Maybe a tax cut for the wealthy would help?

If you can’t fight them, join them.  Incorporate now and possibly  pay yourself with tax free dividends. Happy Trails Johpa

Response:

Congrats to all of you successful ebay sellers,I hope your good fortune continues; it’s hard to believe that you’re unaffected by the economy. Maybe a tax cut for the wealthy would help? Steve Silberberg Read "We’ll Kiss For Food" http://www.kissforfood.com/

Auctions, of course, do better during economic problem times. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Congrats to all of you successful ebay sellers,I hope your good fortune continues; it’s hard to believe that you’re unaffected by the economy. Maybe a tax cut for the wealthy would help? If you can’t fight them, join them.  Incorporate now and possibly  pay yourself with tax free dividends. Happy Trails Johpa

Tain’t that easy McGee  –  If you replace your salary from your corp with dividends you lose the deduction for your salary  – however in a small one man corp a little creative accounting will take care of the problem John

Response:

Congrats to all of you successful ebay sellers,I hope your good fortune continues; it’s hard to believe that you’re unaffected by the economy.

Maybe a tax cut for the wealthy would help? Steve Silberberg Read "We’ll Kiss For Food" http://www.kissforfood.com/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would consider a low end item to be any item that sells for less than $10. It makes no sense whatsoever to try and sell $10 items on eBay. The minimum breakeven is $19.63. Gee Don  -  I just looked at my bank account to see if all the items I am selling for $3 & $4, with about a 10 mark-up is driving me to the poor house – I was surprised to see the old account is still growing I hope everybody listens to you and your $19 minimum — then I will have the under $10 market all to myself and get filthy rich Cheers John Let see: Lets sell an item for 9.99! Cost of item: nothing (you found it in the basement, got it for free or were about to toss it anyway and decided to give ebay a try. Obviously this isnt true if you buy 20 skids of "dollar store" merchandise for 279.00 a skid. So dont do that. Cost of business premesis: Nothing. You work in a corner of the basement that you didnt use for anything else anyway. And who wants to rent your basement anyway? Cost of labor: nothing. Sure you did some work, but you did it at the time of your choice when you had absolutly nothing else to do. Maybe you even enjoyed the novelty of packing a box after a day of doing something else. And you are alowed to watch tv, BS with your  friends on the phone, drink coffee, get stoned, whatever while you work. After all, you make the rules. Cost of materials: nothing. You use free used boxes, free stuff from the post office or USP, crap you scavenge from the trash from your jobs mailroom, whatever. Of course this doesnt work if you brashly purchase 1000 new boxes from Staples. So dont do that. Cost of listing:  30 cents Ebay commission: 5%. Even less if the thing accidently sells for $100. Which it will, once every two or three years. Cost for PP: nothing. ’cause its dumb to use it for something which might cost more to ship than to buy. So dont use it. Cost for internet: Nothing. You know damn well you got it to download music and warez. Or dirty pictures. If ebay is the only reason you got hooked up, get a 9.99 monthly dial-up. Or go to the library once a week. Travel costs: nothing. Dont mail anything unless you are going past the post office for another reason. Drop stuff that weighs less than a pound in the mailbox. If necessary explain in your item description that you are just a kid and only get to go to town once a week. Most sellers take so long to mail stuff anyway you will fit right in. Looks like over 90% profit to me. What business wouldnt do this if they could. The secret is a big business cant operate like this. But you can. Stick with the formula and you will make money. Start playing bigshot and buying lotsa junk to mark up and you will be back to working for $1 an hour and cryin’ the blues here. all of your points would not apply at all to somebody running an ebay business. robert

Well thats the point. If you are an individual selling single items, dont try and be a "business". But if you are selling a thousand identical new items, ebay may not be the best venue, at least if you are selling the item for only a few dollars.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would consider a low end item to be any item that sells for less than $10. It makes no sense whatsoever to try and sell $10 items on eBay. The minimum breakeven is $19.63. Gee Don  -  I just looked at my bank account to see if all the items I am selling for $3 & $4, with about a 10 mark-up is driving me to the poor house – I was surprised to see the old account is still growing I hope everybody listens to you and your $19 minimum — then I will have the under $10 market all to myself and get filthy rich Cheers John Let see: Lets sell an item for 9.99! Cost of item: nothing (you found it in the basement, got it for free or were about to toss it anyway and decided to give ebay a try. Obviously this isnt true if you buy 20 skids of "dollar store" merchandise for 279.00 a skid. So dont do that. Cost of business premesis: Nothing. You work in a corner of the basement that you didnt use for anything else anyway. And who wants to rent your basement anyway? Cost of labor: nothing. Sure you did some work, but you did it at the time of your choice when you had absolutly nothing else to do. Maybe you even enjoyed the novelty of packing a box after a day of doing something else. And you are alowed to watch tv, BS with your  friends on the phone, drink coffee, get stoned, whatever while you work. After all, you make the rules. Cost of materials: nothing. You use free used boxes, free stuff from the post office or USP, crap you scavenge from the trash from your jobs mailroom, whatever. Of course this doesnt work if you brashly purchase 1000 new boxes from Staples. So dont do that. Cost of listing:  30 cents Ebay commission: 5%. Even less if the thing accidently sells for $100. Which it will, once every two or three years. Cost for PP: nothing. ’cause its dumb to use it for something which might cost more to ship than to buy. So dont use it. Cost for internet: Nothing. You know damn well you got it to download music and warez. Or dirty pictures. If ebay is the only reason you got hooked up, get a 9.99 monthly dial-up. Or go to the library once a week. Travel costs: nothing. Dont mail anything unless you are going past the post office for another reason. Drop stuff that weighs less than a pound in the mailbox. If necessary explain in your item description that you are just a kid and only get to go to town once a week. Most sellers take so long to mail stuff anyway you will fit right in. Looks like over 90% profit to me. What business wouldnt do this if they could. The secret is a big business cant operate like this. But you can. Stick with the formula and you will make money. Start playing bigshot and buying lotsa junk to mark up and you will be back to working for $1 an hour and cryin’ the blues here.

all of your points would not apply at all to somebody running an ebay business. robert "None of us can predict the final outcomes of our actions, and few of us even try;   most of us just do what we do to prolong a moment’s pleasure or to stop the pain.   And even when we act for the noblest reasons, the last link of the chain all too often drips with someones blood"

Response:

Your average sale transaction ~has~ to exceed $19.73 for long term eBay success. Oh, crap.  And here all this time I’d been aiming at $19.63.  Sure, it’s only a dime…now.

LOLOL

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There is also nothing wrong with listing a bunch of different three dollar items and having one buyer send you $300 for them.

So it does sometimes make some sense whatsoever? It makes no sense whatsoever to try and sell $10 items on eBay.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You know things have to be bad and the economy is in the crapper when Don lists items under $19.00.    I think it’s time we all give eBay the boot and start collecting change on street corners. http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=abeja Rita You are utterly and completely missing the point of eBay as a marketing tool. At least for me, there is a remarkable ICEBERG effect. Your average sale transaction ~has~ to exceed $19.73 for long term eBay success. There is nothing wrong with listing a three dollar item without sale for a dozen times. So long as someone calls you three days later and buys all 8,357 you have in stock. Another name for the low cost listings that are marking time for a serious buyer is:  BAIT There is also nothing wrong with listing a bunch of different three dollar items and having one buyer send you $300 for them.

True, but this is never pointed out each and every time you cut and paste your standard "$19.73" reply. Rita

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Your average sale transaction ~has~ to exceed $19.73 for long term eBay success.

Oh, crap.  And here all this time I’d been aiming at $19.63.  Sure, it’s only a dime…now.

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You know things have to be bad and the economy is in the crapper when Don lists items under $19.00.    I think it’s time we all give eBay the boot and start collecting change on street corners. http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=abeja Rita

You are utterly and completely missing the point of eBay as a marketing tool. At least for me, there is a remarkable ICEBERG effect. Your average sale transaction ~has~ to exceed $19.73 for long term eBay success. There is nothing wrong with listing a three dollar item without sale for a dozen times. So long as someone calls you three days later and buys all 8,357 you have in stock. Another name for the low cost listings that are marking time for a serious buyer is:  BAIT There is also nothing wrong with listing a bunch of different three dollar items and having one buyer send you $300 for them. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would consider a low end item to be any item that sells for less than $10. It makes no sense whatsoever to try and sell $10 items on eBay. The minimum breakeven is $19.63. Gee Don  -  I just looked at my bank account to see if all the items I am selling for $3 & $4, with about a 10 mark-up is driving me to the poor house – I was surprised to see the old account is still growing I hope everybody listens to you and your $19 minimum — then I will have the under $10 market all to myself and get filthy rich Cheers John Let see: Lets sell an item for 9.99! Cost of item: nothing (you found it in the basement, got it for free or were about to toss it anyway and decided to give ebay a try. Obviously this isnt true if you buy 20 skids of "dollar store" merchandise for 279.00 a skid. So dont do that. Cost of business premesis: Nothing. You work in a corner of the basement that you didnt use for anything else anyway. And who wants to rent your basement anyway? Cost of labor: nothing. Sure you did some work, but you did it at the time of your choice when you had absolutly nothing else to do. Maybe you even enjoyed the novelty of packing a box after a day of doing something else. And you are alowed to watch tv, BS with your  friends on the phone, drink coffee, get stoned, whatever while you work. After all, you make the rules. Cost of materials: nothing. You use free used boxes, free stuff from the post office or USP, crap you scavenge from the trash from your jobs mailroom, whatever. Of course this doesnt work if you brashly purchase 1000 new boxes from Staples. So dont do that. Cost of listing:  30 cents Ebay commission: 5%. Even less if the thing accidently sells for $100. Which it will, once every two or three years. Cost for PP: nothing. ’cause its dumb to use it for something which might cost more to ship than to buy. So dont use it. Cost for internet: Nothing. You know damn well you got it to download music and warez. Or dirty pictures. If ebay is the only reason you got hooked up, get a 9.99 monthly dial-up. Or go to the library once a week. Travel costs: nothing. Dont mail anything unless you are going past the post office for another reason. Drop stuff that weighs less than a pound in the mailbox. If necessary explain in your item description that you are just a kid and only get to go to town once a week. Most sellers take so long to mail stuff anyway you will fit right in. Looks like over 90% profit to me. What business wouldnt do this if they could. The secret is a big business cant operate like this. But you can. Stick with the formula and you will make money. Start playing bigshot and buying lotsa junk to mark up and you will be back to working for $1 an hour and cryin’ the blues here.

And all you have to do is continuously repeat the above utter fantasy 4400 times a year without ANY subsidies or ANY costs or ANY support or ANY help or ANY time to make a marginal income. Most eBay sellers do not have the faintest clue over the REAL expenses of their auction activities. Read up on the economic value of excluded opportunity sometime. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

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Looks like over 90% profit to me. What business wouldnt do this if they could. The secret is a big business cant operate like this. But you can. Stick with the formula and you will make money. Start playing bigshot and buying lotsa junk to mark up and you will be back to working for $1 an hour and cryin’ the blues here.

You know things have to be bad and the economy is in the crapper when Don lists items under $19.00.    I think it’s time we all give eBay the boot and start collecting change on street corners. http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=abeja Rita

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You know things have to be bad and the economy is in the crapper when Don lists items under $19.00.

Didn’t he just post that it makes no sense whatsoever to try and sell $10 items on eBay?

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You know things have to be bad and the economy is in the crapper when Don lists items under $19.00. Didn’t he just post that it makes no sense whatsoever to try and sell $10 items on eBay?

Yes, that would be Don.  Apparently he is exempt from his own rules?  Then again, I’m sure Don is posting these low dollar auctions to be charitable? Rita

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I would consider a low end item to be any item that sells for less than $10. It makes no sense whatsoever to try and sell $10 items on eBay. The minimum breakeven is $19.63.

Gee Don  -  I just looked at my bank account to see if all the items I am selling for $3 & $4, with about a 10 mark-up is driving me to the poor house – I was surprised to see the old account is still growing I hope everybody listens to you and your $19 minimum — then I will have the under $10 market all to myself and get filthy rich Cheers John

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Gee Don  -  I just looked at my bank account to see if all the items I am selling for $3 & $4, with about a 10 mark-up is driving me to the poor house – I was surprised to see the old account is still growing I hope everybody listens to you and your $19 minimum — then I will have the under $10 market all to myself and get filthy rich

Judging by some of the stuff he’s not selling in his auctions, and it seems like it is just about everything, I’m sure that you are still outperforming him even if you sell your items at a loss. Rita

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Congrats to all of you successful ebay sellers,I hope your good fortune continues; it’s hard to believe that you’re unaffected by the economy.Ebay is an excellent vehicle for traders, but from my experience with ebay’s customer service, they do appear to be oblivious to the concenss of their customers, as evidenced by their obscure listing for customer service.  I would consider a low end item to be any item that sells for less than $10. To list that item, a seller would incur the following fees, if the item sells. For a 9.99 item, the fees would be:Insertion fee      - .30final value fee    - .55In addition, if the buyer uses paypal, as most do, then you have add another paypal fee of 2.9% + .30 or .59. The total fees for that 9.99 sale are now 1.44 or 14.4%. If the seller drops the price of an unsold item below 9.99 and adds a buy-it-now, 10 day listing, feature, or extra photo, then the cost and the percentage of the increases to 20%, 30%, or higher. Many items sell for 1.00 or 2.00, even though the value should be much higher. That is the nature of auctions, but the seller must be disappointed to learn that all the labor of listing the auction was for naught.  Therefore, auction fees can easily be 20%-30%of the gross sale and the insertion fees for the unsold items can easily wipe out the net earnings from the sold items.

Go out and open a real store, with exposure to about 1/10,000,000 of the buyers you get with Ebay, pay rent, utilities, taxes, credit card fees higher than paypal, etc etc etc  and see how much it costs you to sell something for $10 John

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Congrats to all of you successful ebay sellers,I hope your good fortune continues; it’s hard to believe that you’re unaffected by the economy.Ebay is an excellent vehicle for traders, but from my experience with ebay’s customer service, they do appear to be oblivious to the concenss of their customers, as evidenced by their obscure listing for customer service.  I would consider a low end item to be any item that sells for less than $10. To list that item, a seller would incur the following fees, if the item sells. For a 9.99 item, the fees would be:Insertion fee      - .30final value fee    - .55In addition, if the buyer uses paypal, as most do, then you have add another paypal fee of 2.9% + .30 or .59. The total fees for that 9.99 sale are now 1.44 or 14.4%. If the seller drops the price of an unsold item below 9.99 and adds a buy-it-now, 10 day listing, feature, or extra photo, then the cost and the percentage of the increases to 20%, 30%, or higher. Many items sell for 1.00 or 2.00, even though the value should be much higher. That is the nature of auctions, but the seller must be disappointed to learn that all the labor of listing the auction was for naught.  Therefore, auction fees can easily be 20%-30%of the gross sale and the insertion fees for the unsold items can easily wipe out the net earnings from the sold items.

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<SNIPPED Fred, is that you? Rita

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 I would consider a low end item to be any item that sells for less than $10.

It makes no sense whatsoever to try and sell $10 items on eBay. The minimum breakeven is $19.63. See http://www.tinaja.com/glib/moreebay.pdf for a detailed mathematical analysis. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

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Question:

Thanks for forwarding this, a good set of articles.  Those who don’t want to know the costs of ownership and those who think financial analysis is silly won’t want to read them. One thing NONE of them discuss, however, is associated risks, which is frankly what kept me out of airplane ownership a year ago, when my investments were still valuable.  Since they are not now and I’m back to square one, I guess I made the right decision. I’m still working on ownership because I really want it.  Because of the logical analysis I feel that I know what I’m getting myself into.  The oldest advice on the subject is what I have proven to myself over and over:  (1) costs can be highly variable, (2) it’s cheaper to rent in most cases unless you fly a lot, and (3) there is a lot of assumed risk with ownership due to #1. The other sage truth is that ownership is much, much more convenient, reliable, and interesting than renting, but I don’t think anyone debates that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rent or buy: http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2002/aug/rent.html Edward

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Been doing some searching and can’t find the answers I need, so I’ll give y’all a shot. My brother is looking at purchasing a light twin for his business traveling (save the resumes, I’ve already got the job flying him….c’mon, it’s my brother). So…new or used? Personally, since I’ll be doing the flying and it’s not my money, I want new. But how do I make a sound financial argument for a new a/c (specifically, a Seneca V) for $650,000 when a good used 340 can be had for 1/3 the price? It took me six months to convince him that his business was crying out for an aircraft (but only one flight in a cessna 172….covering a week’s worth of business calls in one day). I’d love to hear from someone who has bought a new a/c for business recently. Is depreciation of a new a/c reson enough to go new? Are there other pluses besides reliability? (I’m not an accountant, and I’m sure we’ll have a meeting with his accountant, but what sort of benefits has your accountant found regarding a new versus a used aircraft?) Love to hear from ya! JJ (Posting via aol account…ie, spam magnet. If you wish to reply by email, JJ Johnson D-18218 Virginia Beach

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A good used 340 is going to be close to $300-350.  A lot of junkers in the $250 range.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Been doing some searching and can’t find the answers I need, so I’ll give y’all a shot. My brother is looking at purchasing a light twin for his business traveling (save the resumes, I’ve already got the job flying him….c’mon, it’s my brother). So…new or used? Personally, since I’ll be doing the flying and it’s not my money, I want new. But how do I make a sound financial argument for a new a/c (specifically, a Seneca V) for $650,000 when a good used 340 can be had for 1/3 the price? It took me six months to convince him that his business was crying out for an aircraft (but only one flight in a cessna 172….covering a week’s worth of business calls in one day). I’d love to hear from someone who has bought a new a/c for business recently. Is depreciation of a new a/c reson enough to go new? Are there other pluses besides reliability? (I’m not an accountant, and I’m sure we’ll have a meeting with his accountant, but what sort of benefits has your accountant found regarding a new versus a used aircraft?) Love to hear from ya! JJ (Posting via aol account…ie, spam magnet. If you wish to reply by email, JJ Johnson D-18218 Virginia Beach

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So you covered a weeks worth in a 172, and now figure you can cover two weeks worth in a twin? A fast single might make more sense, but then again, if you are looking to build twin time on your brother’s nickel, go for it. — Traveling Worldwide? Ask me about phones and service for only $139 a year. No roaming, prepaid, no hidden charges. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It took me six months to convince him that his business was crying out for an aircraft (but only one flight in a cessna 172….covering a week’s worth of business calls in one day).

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With all the talk of insurance lately on here, you better investigate that angle first.  What can you get insured in?  C340’s are nice, but the pressurization, after the Payne Stewart crash, may make the insurance astronomical, especially for a new 340 pilot.  The Seneca V’s are sweet, but higher hull value = higher insurance as well.  There are plenty of nice Seneca 2’s out there for around $150k, not a whole lot of difference.  No matter who’s paying for it, it’s going to be alot of money, will affect the business’s bottom line.  Sure its tax deductable, but you gotta fork over the money first and get the refund later.  I dont know, but I’m guessing an accountant would say its a financial mistake. Figure out the bare minimum acceptable for the mission, then work your way up the airplane food chain to what wont hurt. Just my opinion, Chris

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Been doing some searching and can’t find the answers I need, so I’ll give y’all a shot. My brother is looking at purchasing a light twin for his business traveling (save the resumes, I’ve already got the job flying him….c’mon, it’s my brother). So…new or used? Personally, since I’ll be doing the flying and it’s not my money, I want new. But how do I make a sound financial argument for a new a/c (specifically, a Seneca V) for $650,000 when a good used 340 can be had for 1/3 the price? It took me six months to convince him that his business was crying out for an aircraft (but only one flight in a cessna 172….covering a week’s worth of business calls in one day). I’d love to hear from someone who has bought a new a/c for business recently. Is depreciation of a new a/c reson enough to go new? Are there other pluses besides reliability? (I’m not an accountant, and I’m sure we’ll have a meeting with his accountant, but what sort of benefits has your accountant found regarding a new versus a used aircraft?) Love to hear from ya! JJ (Posting via aol account…ie, spam magnet. If you wish to reply by email, JJ Johnson D-18218 Virginia Beach

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JJ, There is presently a huge bonus depreciation for buying new this year (44%) as part of the incentives to help aviation.  If your brother’s accountant or CPA is not familiar, contact one of the services like advocate tax or Phil Crowther.  Someone just has to get real serious with a spread sheet to see what the numbers look like. Also, new is not likely to be a good choice unless your brother is committed to the idea of keeping the plane (or any plane) for a long time.  You can trade up, but if you decide to sell it off without trading it in, there are tax implications. Lastly, if your brother makes decisions without a lot of regard to tax strategy, he will likely want to go used. In reality, real money is almost always better than tax money. Eric PS, I would also question the need for a twin.  They are expensive to operate.  If you could do it in a 172…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Been doing some searching and can’t find the answers I need, so I’ll give y’all a shot. My brother is looking at purchasing a light twin for his business traveling (save the resumes, I’ve already got the job flying him….c’mon, it’s my brother). So…new or used? Personally, since I’ll be doing the flying and it’s not my money, I want new. But how do I make a sound financial argument for a new a/c (specifically, a Seneca V) for $650,000 when a good used 340 can be had for 1/3 the price? It took me six months to convince him that his business was crying out for an aircraft (but only one flight in a cessna 172….covering a week’s worth of business calls in one day). I’d love to hear from someone who has bought a new a/c for business recently. Is depreciation of a new a/c reson enough to go new? Are there other pluses besides reliability? (I’m not an accountant, and I’m sure we’ll have a meeting with his accountant, but what sort of benefits has your accountant found regarding a new versus a used aircraft?) Love to hear from ya! JJ (Posting via aol account…ie, spam magnet. If you wish to reply by email, JJ Johnson D-18218 Virginia Beach

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Been doing some searching and can’t find the answers I need, so I’ll give y’all a shot. My brother is looking at purchasing a light twin for his business

You didn’t say when…..So I would recommend the CarbonAero. A recent issue of "Flying" discussed some of the details. I don’t remember when it’ll be available but it makes a lot of sense to have two engines on the centerline. I think it has some Rutan influences too.  Nice bird. Good luck! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – traveling (save the resumes, I’ve already got the job flying him….c’mon, it’s my brother). So…new or used? Personally, since I’ll be doing the flying and it’s not my money, I want new. But how do I make a sound financial argument for a new a/c (specifically, a Seneca V) for $650,000 when a good used 340 can be had for 1/3 the price? It took me six months to convince him that his business was crying out for an aircraft (but only one flight in a cessna 172….covering a week’s worth of business calls in one day). I’d love to hear from someone who has bought a new a/c for business recently. Is depreciation of a new a/c reson enough to go new? Are there other pluses besides reliability? (I’m not an accountant, and I’m sure we’ll have a meeting with his accountant, but what sort of benefits has your accountant found regarding a new versus a used aircraft?) Love to hear from ya! JJ (Posting via aol account…ie, spam magnet. If you wish to reply by email, JJ Johnson D-18218 Virginia Beach

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You’ve got a brother that can afford a new twin and you want to fly airplanes for a living.  When you someday wake up, realize that what you want to do is fly because you want to, not because you have to. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Been doing some searching and can’t find the answers I need, so I’ll give y’all a shot. My brother is looking at purchasing a light twin for his business traveling (save the resumes, I’ve already got the job flying him….c’mon, it’s my brother). So…new or used? Personally, since I’ll be doing the flying and it’s not my money, I want new. But how do I make a sound financial argument for a new a/c (specifically, a Seneca V) for $650,000 when a good used 340 can be had for 1/3 the price? It took me six months to convince him that his business was crying out for an aircraft (but only one flight in a cessna 172….covering a week’s worth of business calls in one day). I’d love to hear from someone who has bought a new a/c for business recently. Is depreciation of a new a/c reson enough to go new? Are there other pluses besides reliability? (I’m not an accountant, and I’m sure we’ll have a meeting with his accountant, but what sort of benefits has your accountant found regarding a new versus a used aircraft?) Love to hear from ya! JJ (Posting via aol account…ie, spam magnet. If you wish to reply by email, JJ Johnson D-18218 Virginia Beach

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You’ve got a brother that can afford a new twin and you want to fly airplanes for a living.  When you someday wake up, realize that what you want to do is fly because you want to, not because you have to.

I’m not following the logic here. I woke up five years ago and realized nuclear engineering wasn’t what I wanted to do for a living; I wanted to fly for a living..regardless of the impact that has on my standard of living. Spending your life on a 7-day-a-week, rotating 12-hour shift, 23 days on / 5 days off may be great for a bank account, but not a life. Also, there’s a big difference between having a brother whose business can justify the expense of a twin, and a brother who can afford a twin. Sorry if I sounded a little "preachy". I’ve had this discussion with a lot of people. Anyway, blue skies to all and thanks for the good advice some have posted on this thread. I was hoping to get a response from someone who had decided to purchase a plane and after a long meeting with his/her accountant, came to the conclusion that a new a/c was the way to go. If this describes you, please drop me a line. JJ

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So JJ, as an outsider here with no advice to give either way, I’ve just been "listening". But your last statement seems to indicate you weren’t really looking for valid suggestions and pertinent information from both sides of the issue. It seems that you really just want to talk to someone who can support your predestined decision. You may or may not realize this, but I thought I’d point out how your last post sounded to another group-reader. One thing my accountant always asked me when I sat down with her was: do you want competent advice, or do you just want someone to agree with you? That same logic should be applied to your situation, because you shouldn’t make business financial decisions in an emotional state of mind. Someone has already posted the comment about "saved money is always better than tax money". Don’t gloss over that thought, there is a lot of realworld experience hidden there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’ve got a brother that can afford a new twin and you want to fly airplanes for a living.  When you someday wake up, realize that what you want to do is fly because you want to, not because you have to. I’m not following the logic here. I woke up five years ago and realized nuclear engineering wasn’t what I wanted to do for a living; I wanted to fly for a living..regardless of the impact that has on my standard of living. Spending your life on a 7-day-a-week, rotating 12-hour shift, 23 days on / 5 days off may be great for a bank account, but not a life. Also, there’s a big difference between having a brother whose business can justify the expense of a twin, and a brother who can afford a twin. Sorry if I sounded a little "preachy". I’ve had this discussion with a lot of people. Anyway, blue skies to all and thanks for the good advice some have posted on this thread. I was hoping to get a response from someone who had decided to purchase a plane and after a long meeting with his/her accountant, came to the conclusion that a new a/c was the way to go. If this describes you, please drop me a line. JJ

Response:

You may or may not realize this, but I thought I’d point out how your last post sounded to another group-reader. One thing my accountant always asked me when I sat down with her was: do you want competent advice, or do you just want someone to agree with you? That same logic should be applied to your situation, because you shouldn’t make business financial decisions in an emotional state of mind. Someone has already posted the comment about "saved money is always better than tax money". Don’t gloss over that thought, there is a lot of realworld experience hidden there.

You’re oh so very right. After re-reading my last post it came off much more one-sided than intended. Every ounce of logic says a used aircraft makes much more financial sence than a new. But there are a lot of very smart, very wealthy people out there who buy new airplanes. I was hoping to hear one of their thought processes that led them to that decision. Thanks for the bucket of cold water JJ

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Rent or buy: http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2002/aug/rent.html Edward

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JJ, for a new aircraft purchase to make sense there has to be adequate business income/activity to justify the cost… The very smart, very wealthy people who are buying new aircraft have accountants who can recover  the major portion of the dollars spent through accellerated depreciation, etc… I have looked at buying such an aircraft for my businesses, but the percentage of it’s use that I can justify under the IRS regs will not recover enough of that cash flow to justify that four figure check every month <sigh, so I continue to fly personally owned junque… Denny

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You may or may not realize this, but I thought I’d point out how your last post sounded to another group-reader. One thing my accountant always asked me when I sat down with her was: do you want competent advice, or do you just want someone to agree with you? That same logic should be applied to your situation, because you shouldn’t make business financial decisions in an emotional state of mind. Someone has already posted the comment about "saved money is always better than tax money". Don’t gloss over that thought, there is a lot of realworld experience hidden there. You’re oh so very right. After re-reading my last post it came off much more one-sided than intended. Every ounce of logic says a used aircraft makes much more financial sence than a new. But there are a lot of very smart, very wealthy people out there who buy new airplanes. I was hoping to hear one of their thought processes that led them to that decision. Thanks for the bucket of cold water JJ

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never felt more at home in any church than in the Catholic Church — and have attended for quite some time even though I am an Episcopalian. The problem is in joining — specifically the legal/marriage questions. I was married once before to a Catholic (though not in the church) and then divorced.  I have since remarried — also a Catholic. I’m led to understand that since the first marriage was to a Catholic but not within the Church it is reasonably easy to dismiss as a problem.  My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?

You should be grateful that a false religion has rejected you. b

– Colossians 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

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: : My question is this — suppose the person asking had been married to a : Catholic (not, as he says, in the Church) and divorced from that : person.  Suppose, then, that  he has remarried someone who is NOT a : Catholic, has no interest in the Catholic Church. : : How does that change the situation??? Assuming his first marriage was : anulled, how would the Church deal with the second marriage, the one : to the non-Catholic? : It depends if that person was a baptized Christian too, etc. ALL of it is complicated. Karen

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The church could NOT accept your Baptism (I do not believe)

btw – The Church does not re-baptize those who are already baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – it matters not what their former church was.  In fact, anyone may Baptize – as long as they do it with pure intent, and in the name of the Trinity, and it is considered valid.  To re-baptize has been an anathema since the earliest days of the Church, and is considered somewhat of a "slap in the face" to God.  When you are baptized, you are cleansed of Original Sin, enter into the Body of Christ, and given special graces to help you live according to God’s will. It doesn’t need to be done over, it works the first time!  ;-) — God be with you, Luminaria a.k.a. Lisa, a.k.a.- Natty’s mommy http://www.javanet.com/~lanat/

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Well, of course, to be perfectly frank, the answer below to the person’s problem moves into the land of the Pharisees. It shows up the worst of the Legalistic Church as opposed to the Christianity of Love. Of course they are not living in adultary except in this most narrow and, actually, artificial legalistic sense. My question is this — suppose the person asking had been married to a Catholic (not, as he says, in the Church) and divorced from that person.  Suppose, then, that  he has remarried someone who is NOT a Catholic, has no interest in the Catholic Church. How does that change the situation??? Assuming his first marriage was anulled, how would the Church deal with the second marriage, the one to the non-Catholic? Thanks for any explanation. MG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never felt more at home in any church than in the Catholic Church — and have attended for quite some time even though I am an Episcopalian. The problem is in joining — specifically the legal/marriage questions. I was married once before to a Catholic (though not in the church) and then divorced.  I have since remarried — also a Catholic. I’m led to understand that since the first marriage was to a Catholic but not within the Church it is reasonably easy to dismiss as a problem.  My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?   To be perfectly frank and honest: because you are better off not converting than converting (or pretending to convert) while living in sin with someone you at least aren’t married to, and presumably living in adultery with a woman who is married. I know that’s a harsh thing to say but it’s a question that is too important to lie about to spare people’s feelings.

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Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?

Yes it can appear frustrating.  Often one sees "procedures" and forgets that procedures are a result of doctrines and teachings not the other way around. Thus the question of your wife’s situation is very important to you. The Church is very insistant on Christ’s commandment which prohibits divorce.  So if your wife’s first marriage was indeed valid, (I still can’t figure out why people assume that just because two people broke up later in life that somehow one can find some cause of impediment at the time the marriag etook place,) then either she is a bigimist (also not allowed in the Church, again by the commandments of Christ,) or else your marriage to her is invalid in the eyes of the Church, and unless you want to life like some mixed monastic community as "brother and sister," you are living with someone in what the Church would only consider an "extra-marital" state, in sin. Yes, that is frustrating.  Think of the many natives of foreign lands where their customs had allowed poligamy being told that they could not continue to live with their dozen wives and still consider themselves a Christian in good standing. That’s the problem with conversion.  It requires … a conversion.  The casual attitude of Marriage of pro-tem legal sex is not the attitude of the Church.  Marriage, like the Priesthood, is not a temp job, a try it while you like it attitude.  Conversion does not mean wave a magic wand and everything that was is now ok. — Peace & Good! Christopher Beattie SFO KOC, SPEBSQSA, et.al. Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never felt more at home in any church than in the Catholic Church — and have attended for quite some time even though I am an Episcopalian. The problem is in joining — specifically the legal/marriage questions. I was married once before to a Catholic (though not in the church) and then divorced.  I have since remarried — also a Catholic. I’m led to understand that since the first marriage was to a Catholic but not within the Church it is reasonably easy to dismiss as a problem.  My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?  

To be perfectly frank and honest: because you are better off not converting than converting (or pretending to convert) while living in sin with someone you at least aren’t married to, and presumably living in adultery with a woman who is married. I know that’s a harsh thing to say but it’s a question that is too important to lie about to spare people’s feelings.

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Who cares? If you are married you are married. You do not become unmarried because the RCC says you were not married the right way. Matthew 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

This is a brilliant misuse of scripture  What is it your trying to demonstrate here anyway?  What this scripture says is that the RCC is right in this case.  If someone gets a divorce for any reason other than the fornication on the part of their partner, then whoever marries that partner is as guilty of adultry as the partner themselves, or as in the case of convenience both partners.  In the case this guy who (I suspect is a troll) is trying to become a Catholic there are some circumstances: A) He may still be married to his first wife (by church law). B) If Not (A), then he is married to his second wife in which case they are one, and the church has to take into account this special circumstance. anything in Scripture that tells what happens to the guy who divorces his wife……what happens to him?

If he divorces her for reasons other than fornication, then he is committing adultery, and putting  her and whoever she shacks up with in danger of committing adultery too. Especially if he re-marries, and possibly a divorced woman? Talk to me about this type of justification…..sometimes I read that passage of scripture and think that the part of ’saving for the cause of fornication’ means: so that the guy divorcing can go out and do it.

I think the point your missing here is simply this.  You can divorce your spouse for any reason and *CALL* it fornication and you might fool your neighbors and family and even the church with your charade.  In the end, however, you will have to stand before God and make an accounting of your life. He is the one judge you can not fool. This is the problem with the law and why Christ simplified the law and the commandments by declaring that he would write the law into the hearts of men.  If you are seeking to do God’s will, and not your own you won’t go looking for legal loop holes to snake your way to salvation while perverting God’s will on earth.  I think that anyone who feels they are saved because they are following the letter of the law by interpreting it in a way as to permit them to act in a way that is contrary to the spirit of the law is going to be in for a BIG surprise come judgement day.  That’s sorta like what a modern man would read it as – huh?  Cause I know of 9 Protestant ministers who have been married at least twice, if not more…….and they always seem to run off with someone in their church.  P.

The clergy are under a heavier judgement because God expects more from those who seek special status in his service. Nuff said… Before you buy.

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: My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to : Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is : that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at : least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. : : These matters are formalities. You can easily find a priest who will settle the : issue. Theologians can square the circle if they have to. As a convert to the : Church myself I welome you. Attend Mass, don’t get hung up on church : technicialities. : : Yours in Christ, : : Bill Well….but you see, your priest had quite a LOT of work to deal with the case [usually] with the chancery.  If you were NEVER a Christian before, and nor was your spouse, it’s true it’s a relatively simple case to clear up.   However, SOME cases can be quite sticky, and of course there are such things as valid indisolvable marriages. Every case is different.  Ask any priest or lay person assigned to help with the diocesan case load on the marriage tribunal if all the paperwork, interviews [& coordinating all those interviews from possible different diocese in the country and even WORLD if necessary  Are a mere "formality" and they will laugh in your face about what a simple babe in the woods you are.   It’s a thankless task!  the Marriage rules in the code of canon law are quite tricky and it’s hardly  a rubber stamp. Karen

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Who cares? If you are married you are married. You do not become unmarried because the RCC says you were not married the right way. Matthew 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Scripture that tells what happens to the guy who divorces his wife……what happens to him? Especially if he re-marries, and possibly a divorced woman? Talk to me about this type of justification…..sometimes I read that passage of scripture and think that the part of ’saving for the cause of fornication’ means: so that the guy divorcing can go out and do it. That’s sorta like what a modern man would read it as – huh?  Cause I know of 9 Protestant ministers who have been married at least twice, if not more…….and they always seem to run off with someone in their church.  P.

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My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things.

These matters are formalities. You can easily find a priest who will settle the issue. Theologians can square the circle if they have to. As a convert to the Church myself I welome you. Attend Mass, don’t get hung up on church technicialities. Yours in Christ, Bill

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about problem with annulment, etc.

I know lots of couples who have gone through this process. It depends on how much you really want to worship as a Catholic – plus of course, the annulment of your wife’s one particular marriage.  I know of one couple that lived as brother and sister for over 2 years until things settled down for them to be remarried in the church (her husband became Catholic then too).  I know of another couple who attended Mass, and were (and still are) one of the most active couples in our parish — for a period of 8 years before the annulments were granted.  The problem there was:  Previous spouses were Catholic also. I know of one woman who was a convert who wished to marry a Catholic man, however she had to go through an evaluation because she herself had previously had 3 other marriages — and one must find out why they failed.   All this to say to you – would you be willing to live as brother and sister for as long as it would take to clear up all the other things?   The church could NOT accept your Baptism (I do not believe) if you were still having sexual relations with your now-wife who needs an annulment.  I think this is where the problem may lie with not bringing you into full-communion with the church. You may have to wait until everything is straightened out.  But I see no reason why you can’t get right in there and attend classes, or whatever you have to do, or begin helping out around the church – and showing your willingness to be a part of the family. And don’t give up, or you will show the wrong intentions. And you don’t have to be Catholic to begin serving in that way at all (we have lots of people who are not Catholic that do more at our parish than they do at their own)….hope this helps.  P.

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: Who cares? If you are married you are married. Very true. : You do not become unmarried : because the RCC says you were not married the right way. Not if the marriage wasn’t actually a marriage, but only a putative one, not necessarily through anyone’s "fault." Karen

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According to our beliefs, divorce and remarriage constitutes adultery. This seems harsh to many, but you can verify it in the Catechism. It has nothing to do with your wife’s situation, but yours. If you and your wife were not married to other people, it would not be an issue. Your wife needs one annulment. Any remarriage is not a marriage, so only one annulment is possible. The best thing is to contact the local diocese (the bishop’s office) and talk to them about this. They really do try to be helpful, and I’ve known several people who have been in a similar position that say it was okay. It is certainly not the most pleasant thing to have to rehash old events, of course. Annulments simply say the people involved did not enter into a marriage. I’ll leave it to others to explain it better. Most, if not all, other denominations "forgive" marriage. Because the Church considers matrimony a sign of Christ’s love for the Church (Matthew 5, Ephesians 5), divorce and remarriage are not an option for us. Because most people marry without understanding the promises involved, annulments happen. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?

Here are some relevant links: http://www.evangelist.org/archive/htm/0213anul.htm http://www.austindiocese.org/tribunal.htm Peace, Ed www.rushman.org

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I have never felt more at home in any church than in the Catholic Church — and have attended for quite some time even though I am an Episcopalian. The problem is in joining — specifically the legal/marriage questions. I was married once before to a Catholic (though not in the church) and then divorced.  I have since remarried — also a Catholic. I’m led to understand that since the first marriage was to a Catholic but not within the Church it is reasonably easy to dismiss as a problem.  My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?   b

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Who cares? If you are married you are married. You do not become unmarried because the RCC says you were not married the right way. Matthew 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never felt more at home in any church than in the Catholic Church — and have attended for quite some time even though I am an Episcopalian. The problem is in joining — specifically the legal/marriage questions. I was married once before to a Catholic (though not in the church) and then divorced.  I have since remarried — also a Catholic. I’m led to understand that since the first marriage was to a Catholic but not within the Church it is reasonably easy to dismiss as a problem.  My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation? b

– Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. http://www.ArmyOfGod.com

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Question:

Sorry I missed the discussion re this Anyone want to start it up again and contribute something I live and work in a remote part of Australia and this may be an option Cheers

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Sorry I missed the discussion re this

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Question:

I am thinking of buying a used car (‘94 or ‘95 Taurus, Lumina or Intrepid; I haven’t decided which; or similar) and would like some info regarding AutoNation USA and other used car chains that have popped up lately. Are they any better than some of the dealers or local used car lots or are they just as bad? Any comments (good or bad) about these companies would be appreciated. Please reply to message through the newsgroup. Thanks — Paul D. There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics. If statistics are worse than damn lies, then what does that make accounting?

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I am thinking of buying a used car (‘94 or ‘95 Taurus, Lumina or Intrepid; I haven’t decided which; or similar) and would like some info regarding AutoNation USA and other used car chains that have popped up lately. Are they any better than some of the dealers or local used car lots or are they just as bad? Any comments (good or bad) about these companies would be appreciated. Please reply to message through the newsgroup.

We’ve got an AutoNation here in Phoenix.  I have 2 observations: 1.  I like the "no haggle" pricing policy (much simpler) 2.  Their prices seemed high.  I can find better prices (with no haggle) at a local dealer. Scott PS — I’d stay away from the Lumina.  Try the Taurus.  <==Just my .02

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Question:

Having used Quicken for many years to manage my personal finances, I decided to use Quickbooks for my new company. However, I have been unable to find any accountants who can produce my accounts from it. Intuit UK have given me a list of companies that provide training, but no accountants. Does anyone know of one (ideally London based)? Thanks of anticipation of help. Kim Robinson

Hello Kim We have clients who use Quickbooks for their bookkeeping. They then give the data to us on a disk and we prepare their statutory accounts etc. from it. We are not London based; our office is in Coventry but we have many clients in the South of England – I think they feel that any slight inconvenience this may cause from time to time is more than made up by our lower charge-out rates! — Laurence Moore BA FCA FCCA Pilley & Florsham Chartered Certified Accountants

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Having used Quicken for many years to manage my personal finances, I decided to use Quickbooks for my new company. However, I have been unable to find any accountants who can produce my accounts from it. Intuit UK have given me a list of companies that provide training, but no accountants. Does anyone know of one (ideally London based)? Thanks of anticipation of help. Kim Robinson

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Question:

|                             Heads Up | |       A Weekly View from the Foothills of Appalachia | |                   February 8, 1998   #71 | | |  Previous Editions at:  http://mmc.cns.net/headsup.html | | |FRAUD AND THE FEDERAL BUDGET |       Years back, I attended an address by a |managing partner of a major accounting firm.  His topic |was the differences between accounting practices of |businesses and the federal government.  It was an |hilarious speech.  And I must admit that I took pleasure |in watching two Members of Congress cringe as the speaker |identified dozens of accounting "tricks" regularly used by |the federal government that would get a business person |swiftly prosecuted for fraud. |       And so it is today.  The administration and |Congress tell us that the Social Security "fund" is |running a surplus.  In fact, all tax money collected for |Social Security goes into the general fund.  There is no |Social Security fund – except for a pile of IOU’s. |       They tell us that the nation is $5.7-trillion |in debt.  Yet, no one in Washington mentions that none |of the money belonging in the Social Security fund is |listed as part of this national debt.  Nor do they count |the many hundreds of billions of dollars of debts owed by |the various federal departments, or the money owed by any |of the federal regulatory agencies. |       So, reading the federal budget is more akin |to reading a book of lies.  Congress voted for it, but not |one of them read it before voting.  Clinton signed it, but |he doesn’t read any of it either.  Actually, no one reads |it.  Each department’s bureaucrats do their own respective |budget, and budget for increases every year.  The |administration usually attempts to slip in new programs.   |And Congressional committees play with the numbers a |little – and add pork. |       Often, it is not clear exactly what all was |signed into law for weeks, or maybe months, afterwards.   |And, as sometimes happens, devious political types sneak |in stuff after the vote.  In fact, many budgets were |actually voted through Congress before they were even |printed, let alone studied by anyone.  Truly, that is |negligence of office by all of the elected ones. |       The fact is that our federal budget is such a |mess simply because the people we elect to watch it do |not.  Rather, they play with it, each person in government |paying only limited attention to one or two of the many |sections.  Therefore, every year it increases.  And, every |year, the bill to the taxpayer increases. |Federal taxes are now the highest they have |been since 1945, and that was a war year.  In 1997, |federal taxes alone reached 20 percent of gross domestic |product (GDP), and there is really no relief in sight.   |Closer to home, federal taxes claimed 19.9 percent of the |earnings of a middle-class family in 1957, but by 1997 |this had grown to 26.1 percent.  State and local taxes |went from 7.4 percent in 1955 to 12.9 percent in 1997.   |Add to this the hundreds of hidden taxes due to federal |and state regulations and, like sharecroppers, American |taxpayers are paying out over half of their earnings to |that master called government each year. |So, the Clinton administration proposes an |increase of $100-billion (about $875 per taxpayer) in |domestic spending.  Clinton starts out with a new baby- |sitter entitlement of $7.5-billion.  But that’s not all.   |There is another $12.72-billion in the new budget targeted |towards the incidentals of the "child care" industry.   |That’s over $20-billion in new entitlements.  Oh, and |there’s another $900-million to enroll 3 million uninsured |children in Medicaid – which, incidentally, is not nearly |enough money and they know it. |This allows the federal government a foot in |the door.  Bureaucrats will then move forward to |regulate – control – all child care in the nation.  That’s |what co-president Hillary wants, and so shall it be, |evidently. |The Clintons also want federal control of all |schools.  So, there is $7.3-billion included for more |teachers and another $5-billion for school building bonds.   |In other words, the federal government will provide a |small percentage of the necessary public school funds, |then write 90% of the school regulations.  Typical. |       Another totally silly whopper in the new |budget is a $6.3-billion package to spur development of |ultra fuel-efficient automobiles.  Why silly?  Because the |Big-Three in Detroit do not need the money.  They are |already rich.  Anyway, as Heads Up readers know, all three |corporations already have electric vehicles.  And all three |have fuel cells coming out of research shortly to power |these electric vehicles efficiently.  Therefore, all will |have cars for sale that get 60 to 90 miles per gallon |within a few years.  The $6.3-billion, then, is play |money — probably targeted to "selected" research companies |of dubious scientific expertise, and to schools so |engineering students can reinvent what the auto companies |have already done.  On top of that, Clinton proposes a |$3,000 to $4,000 tax credit for anyone purchasing one of |these "fuel-efficient" automobiles.  That, of course, |means battery-powered electric cars right now. |       Also interesting is a new entitlement for the |middle aged.  Clinton actually says, with a straight face, |that a program of selling Medicare coverage to people |aged 55-64 for $400 per month would pay for itself.   |Obviously, that is not true.  Because, were it true, these |folks would already have used that money to purchase |medical coverage on the open market.  However, commercial |insurance companies know that the $400 monthly premium |will not cover the costs. |       And, here’s a special for all you Heads Up |readers with web pages:  The administration proposes |$8-million to construct a World Wide Web site to facilitate |job searches.  Now, how hard can this be?  You receive |notices of open jobs and paste them on a web page.  Some |sort of order will be necessary, of course.  A good search |engine would also be necessary for users.  And you would |have to pay ten to twenty people about $50,000 a year.   |That leaves a bunch of profit! |       If the Department of Labor sets up the |database, they’ll probably hire 200 people and spend a |million or two on computer equipment.  Then, it will work |somewhat like the IRS computers, which is not very well. |       The Cato Institute reported that "Americans |are justifiably skeptical about promises of a balanced |budget.  Surveys show 17 percent believe it will occur, |about the same as the percentage who think space aliens |are now living on earth."  Yup.  We’re catching on. |       Waste, fraud and abuse, that’s what’s in our |federal budget.  A waste of money by government doing |things it has no authority to even think about.  Fraud |because there is no real accounting system used in the |federal government.  And abuse because we serf-citizen, |share croppers are forced to pay for this waste and fraud |year after year. |       Time for some MAJOR changes. | |THE RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY |       Bill Clinton has obviously been dallying |with nearly any female he can get his hands on.  And, it |seems, he has also broken the law by committing perjury |and obstruction of justice trying to cover it up. |       Note that the White House propaganda artists |are not actually coming out and denying Clinton’s actions.   |Instead, they are working a vicious campaign to bash Ken |Starr in the popular press.  That is, they do not speak of |Bill Clinton’s wrongdoing per se, but instead have launched |a campaign to attempt to point out that Starr may have also |broken the law by leaking grand jury information. |       In truth, it is the White House operatives who |are leaking grand jury information to their sycophants in |the press so as to accuse Kenneth Starr and company of |wrongdoing.  It’s an obstruction of justice game being |played by Hillary’s media control propagandists simply to |throw suspicion away from Bill Clinton and towards Starr |and his team of investigators. |       Last week we described a little about Hillary’s |attempt to "control" the press and counter accounts of |Bill Clinton’s sexcapades, perjury and obstruction of |justice.  Now comes part of the proof. |       The Landmark Legal Foundation (http://www.llf.org) |posted a copy of the talking points provided the media by |Hillary’s back-room propaganda machine.  The report also |identifies part of the White House’s enemies list. |The Landmark Legal Foundation describes the |document thusly: |"The following document was produced by |unknown authors and sources on behalf of President Clinton.   |This document was distributed widely to the media and used |to perpetuate the myth of the First Lady’s allegation that |a ‘vast right-wing conspiracy’ was out to get the |president.  Clearly, this information influenced the |media’s coverage of the current Clinton scandal." |       We suggest Heads Up readers study these |talking points provided to the media by the White House, |and compare the text with what was told the American |people by the press.  Much of these talking points were |used verbatim, as fact, by the national press. |       As we have reported frequently, the Washington |press corps are not really "reporters," as we commonly |think of news reporters.  Rather, most of them are little |more than "repeaters" of the information they receive.   |And, because most in the Washington media are quite |liberal, they tend to accept any material received from |Hillary and friends as factual news not needing |verification. |       Material received from Conservative sources, |of course, needs verification before it is used.  It also |requires "balance" in reporting by … read more »

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|And when the 16th Amendment was adopted there was a debate over whether or |not to limit it to a maximum of 10%. The proposal was laughed off the floor |of Congress because no one believed a rate anywhere near such an |unimaginable level would ever be taken seriously. Its a real interesting story to read about the earlier attempts at a plain old law.  The senator was literally laughed off the floor.  When he came back later, and started his commie stuff again, people realized he was serious.  Another senator threw an ashtray at him.  He left again. — Are you free? Do you own your body?  Can you prostitute yourself, sell your organs, or medicate yourself?  Do you own your labor?  Can you work for any wage you want, whatever hours you want, and keep the fruits of your sweat? Do you own your possessions?  Can the terms of your property ownership be changed at any time, or for any reason?  Can your property be taxed without limitation? Can you travel freely?  Must you carry identification papers for you and your property, submit to search without warrant, cause, or recourse? There is a spectrum upon which lie two endpoints.  One point is slavery, and at the other end:  FREEDOM.

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Well, the only problem I saw with your 410-line post (I had no problem just hitting ‘D’ and moving on) was the subject. IM? What’s that? I think you’ve been around AOL and its instant messages a bit too long, Mr. Ryder. The Distilled Wisdom posts begin with the letters LM, for last modified… — Greg Smith   http://www.dreamscape.com/esmith/                             -=- "We shall not cease from exploration. And the end of all our   exploring will be to arrive where we started.   And know the place for the first time." –T.S. Eliot

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and just think… when america (the colonies) first broke from the brittish empire, it was over a measly 2% tax, and that on purchases… hmmm….

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|and just think… when america (the colonies) first broke from the brittish |empire, it was over a measly 2% tax, and that on purchases… hmmm…. Well, that, and gun control.  Remember the fighting started when the King tried to confiscate the people’s assault weapons.  It is time… Time to throw all their damn tea in the harbor. Again. — Are you free? Do you own your body?  Can you prostitute yourself, sell your organs, or medicate yourself?  Do you own your labor?  Can you work for any wage you want, whatever hours you want, and keep the fruits of your sweat? Do you own your possessions?  Can the terms of your property ownership be changed at any time, or for any reason?  Can your property be taxed without limitation? Can you travel freely?  Must you carry identification papers for you and your property, submit to search without warrant, cause, or recourse? There is a spectrum upon which lie two endpoints.  One point is slavery, and at the other end:  FREEDOM.

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