Question:

HI, Kind of the same old same old with me, but it helps for me to just write out whats going on once in a while… I’m Kinda freaking out because I have tax issues to get taken care of, (taxes that need to get filed personal, and old business) for the past 3 years now.  They are complex.  I need the help of a accountant or cpa, and I don’t have the money to do them.  So I am freaking out a bit on this. I get 1, 2, 3 medical bills a day for co-pays, deductiables, and co-pays that the insurance doesnt or didnt cover.  I can’t even see my chiropractor anymore because I own him a couple hundred bucks.  Even when I get some income at some point, I don’t know if I’ll ever get caught up on all this crap. I still have not heard anything on my SSDI, despite there promise to get a descision to me multiple times now.  I just called any left a message asking them to call me back and let me know what is going on.  I was supose to get a decision in mid Novenber, then I was told late November, then I was told that It would be longer, then i was told to come in to a private doctor for testing, I did, that was mid december, I was told I would hear a couple weeks after that.  I didn’t  Only thing I can think of that might have slowed it down again is that I called very early jan, like the 2nd or 3rd or somewhere around there and told them about my fibro diagnosis.  So perhaps that slowed it down…  Its getting close to the end of January here, and nothing but more bills and nothing from ssdi….     ,,,,,,,,,,    Still waiting on a respons for my application for medical assistance.  I was told that is going to take longer as well. No Money, and all the related problems that brings.  My parrents and friends are quickly running out of money to help me with things anymore.  I called for energy asistance, but I can’t get in till the middle of next month. My monthly expenses (Including insurance, deductiable and co-pays, which I am not even able to pay many of right now), with the house Line of credit that I can get refinanced due to no incomme / bankruptcy last year are around $2300, just for lil ol me.  I really hate to think about moving, cause of all the stress that would be and I think it would make me too fucking depressed, I know it would.  I’ve tried so hard to make this house nice for myself, I would hate to leave.  +++ If I leave the way the market is, I would not be able to see the house for anywhere near what it is morgaged out to.  It is morgaged to 110,000, and I would be luck if it sold for like 95-100 in this market, – realtors fees of like $6,000 on that, I would get like 89-96 ish, putting me in the hole like $14,000 to $21,000. So that means the bank would not even let me sell it, so I would have to just not pay for it, let it get foreclosed upon,etc… So getting rid of the house i really a last resort.  Plus if it gets foreclosed upon, you know there not gonna sell it for a good price, and u know there gonna try and get the balance from me.  Since I filed bankruptcy last year, cant file again, so I would have another big chunk of change that I owe either way!!!  I cant think of anythink else to reduce the bills, I already have shaved down about everything I can, except getting rid of the internet, and I cant really see that as a good option to save $35 a month…. I am finally feeling like I’m making some progress on the Fibro and stuff with this new Rheumy I’m seeing.  I’m really optimistic, and some of the treatment is really helping.  However, I feel StuCK, because, For example, I can’t see the chiro anymore, and I am supose to do that, (and my back is in pain), but I can’t cause I owe him too much money.  Same story on my allgery Shots I’m supose to get, and thoes have been helping as well… On the flip side of that, Im still not thinking I am ready to jump back into any type of regular work.  I am thinking I’d either have to try something really part time or try something self-employeed.  Problem is I still get overwhelmed really easily…  I’m pretty sure that Anxeity summs up how I feel a lot of the time, even though I do a lot better with anxeity now than I did in the past.  Biggest thing that SUCKS here with benefits and assistance from the state and county is that if I work I risk losing benefits,,, If I can work, no Biggie, if I try to work, handle something for like 6 weeks or what not, and then cant handle it, then I have to re-apply for all the benefits again!!!  So I am not confidant yet that I can do anything that permenatly,, so I don’t think I can risk losing my benefits (or I should say the prospect of benefits from ssdi at this point)  the only benefit I am getting is a whopping $152 a month is food stamps. I decided that I really wanted to try and get more active with doing some stuff again, so I am tryin some volunteer work.  I helped out at a local community center for the developmentally disabled for 4 hours today.  Went well, and they appricated the help.  I just have too many days that are UP and then down for a few days with energy, anxeity, PaIN to be able to be relyed upon to do something as consistant as a regular JoB.  I wish I could think of some other options.  But to me it looks like, work real job =  make $$ = lose benefits and prospect of benefits = anxeity & strees & pain = need to limit work = less money = need to re-apply for benefits and wait 6 months to see if it is approved again.  Nice hun??  Self-employed sounds more flexiable, but from past experiance, it is often very stressful! In terms of self-employment, I looked at doing some freelance photography work, but I need new & more equiptment.  This will cost me a minium of about $2,000 to do anything at all serious.  I also wanted to look at selling some photos, but to get stuff framed up and looking nice, I need a good chunk of change there also. It’s all causing Major Anxeity, and all that combined with the recent problems with relationships, I feel totally overwhelmed.  I gets hard to feel like its worth it to keep strugling…  Sucks Doesnt It??? Well that pretty much all the main stuff, I could go on and on with the little shit that bother the hell out of me, but I won’t do that right now… Any Suggestions are welcome… Feeling Anxious, Sad, Lonely, etc… Jamie

Response:

HI, I got up to barnes and noble yesterday, and I could not find, "Stand Up to the IRS."  So I am going to have to order it from online. Also, as you may have saw in my message from yesterday, It looks like the disability may be going through… So if it does all go though, then I will have some more resources to deal with this… Thanks again, Jamie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now that you say this, I know it had to be a S corp because we wanted it setup so we could take profit / loss onto our personall taxes.  I know there was something that the lawerys did for the irs and such, but I don’t know if it ever was sent in or anything about it. You can call the IRS and inquire as to the status of the Corporation. There’s no harm in asking them to send you a copy of the verification letter. I still have my copy when I started my Corp in 2002. I don’t see a need to get a hold of the lawyers since the IRS should have a record that they sent you a verification letter. Did you use ledgers, a Dome Book, or a software program? You need All records of the first 6-7 months of business were lost. Hmmmm….. Without backup discs there is nothing to be done here. I know we had K-1’s if that means anything? or we were supose to, but they never got done. K-1’s are easy to do provided there are no "passive shareholders" and (IOW) every shareholder participated in the business. Each shareholder gets a K-1 by January 31, listing his or her share of the company profits for the year, regardless of whether or not they received any of the profits in the form of distributions. They then take the K-1 information of THEIR share of the profits (distributed or not), and transfer that to the 1040, line 17, and also attach a Schedule E where they can list profits and even expenses the company never paid them for (unreimbursed expenses). The 1040 should include a Schedule E, but the K-1 is not necessary–it is for the shareholder’s information only. Your federal 1120S Corporate Income Tax form is only for informational purposes. You include a copy of  every K-1given to all shareholders. I sometimes forgot to do this; the IRS reminded me with a letter all the time. If it is really a C-corp, then do I sitll have any libility as far as you know or is the company just dead and I don’t even have to do anything else about the corporation?? The C Corp is alive and well until you send the "Final" return to them and declare a closing. Same with the S-Corp. You can call the IRS and check this out, but first, I would inquire as to the status. My X…has no records.  Most everything was either lost in the software carsh or never created…. Here’s where I would be thinking in terms of closing and and taking it from there. What would the offer in compermise mean?  As you know from my first post, I have no money, and from what I can tell, I don’t see why I would owe any money with all the losses… There are ways to sort of get around that. A good book to get is "Stand Up to the IRS." It’s sounds like a nasty title, but it clearly explains the little "nuances" you can use to get yourself as much as possible off the hook. The key is this: Federal Tax Court. The IRS will do anything to avoid Tax Court because they do not control it. You have a lor of cards and lately I have noticed that the IRS has become a lot friendlier these last few years. There are also tax abeyances and even elimination of tax debt under special circumstances that the book explains. I would look into the book because it is written by a tax lawyer and easy to understand. Now I am sure you can see why this whole thing is such a freaking mess!!! and why I am so confused and anxious about what to do…. Well, I am confused about my anxiety and depression. So we sort of are in the same boat. Lots of people here are. To sum up, I would recommend: 1) Inquire as to status. Ask for copy of verification letter. 2) Get whatever records you can get–bank transaction slips, any disks if at all, any record of anything at all. 3) Get the book. 4) Take it from there. The book may guide you. With the info in it, you can prepare yourself gradually and patiently to put this once and for all behind you. It will take time, but each new step you take will begin to ease the anxiety. You will have to close the Corp eventually; same with the state. You may have to do some "estimated" returns, etc.; but I think I would read the book first to get you started. Your local library may have it. But personally, I think these four steps should get you started on the road.

Response:

I’m Kinda freaking out because I have tax issues to get taken care of, (taxes that need to get filed personal, and old business) for the past 3 years now.  They are complex. did you file personal or corporate bankruptcy? did you file chapter 7 or 13?

7 personal generally, if bankruptcy is filed, the taxes are assessed within days of the corporate dissolution, taxes generally assessed and obligated to shareholers.  what type of corporation did you have?

Since there was not the conformation from the irs, we think it was a s corp and it never actualy became a C -copr and generally, the IRS doesn’t fuck with bankruptcy court. what kinda business did you have an were you incorporated and if so, why type of corporation? if yer business went ker-plunk after 3 years, are ya tellin’ me that ya profited wildly and took a sudden fall at tha end of this term?  was it a cash business?

no cash really. almost none, commercial printing.  I tok maybe 20,000 ish in pay roll the whole time we were open. I have not done anything at all with the corporation, it is just sitting there, not doing anything.  no taxes, no bankruptcy, etc…  I need the help of a accountant or cpa, and I don’t have the money to do them. no ya don’t, bankruptcy court decides these matters.  it’s cut’n dried. again… personal or corporate bankruptcy?  chapter 7 or 13? what type of corporation?

7 personal.. didnt do anything at all directly with the corporation… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PLEASE respond to the above 3 questions. So I am freaking out a bit on this. I get 1, 2, 3 medical bills a day for co-pays, deductiables, and co-pays that the insurance doesnt or didnt cover.  I can’t even see my chiropractor anymore because I own him a couple hundred bucks. maybe ya oughta sans yer addiction ta medical treatment (especially a fuckin’ chiro, fer chrissake)… good god, Jamie.. you can definitely live without THAT treatment Even when I get some income at some point, I don’t know if I’ll ever get caught up on all this crap. were your taxes assessed subsequent to bankruptcy?  if so, there’s ultra-leverage within this arena following bankruptcy.  .

I have not had any taxes assesed at all really that I know of.  I was never notified that I owe anything.  I just never filed anything. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if you had no corporation, i assume you were in a "cash based" business, and reported only the minimum dollar amount required to stay just a weeeeeeee bit uner the bottom level tax bracket, thus being required to pay zilch fer taxes. I still have not heard anything on my SSDI, despite there promise to get a descision to me multiple times now.  I just called any left a message asking them to call me back and let me know what is going on.  I was supose to get a decision in mid Novenber, then I was told late November, then I was told that It would be longer, then i was told to come in to a private doctor for testing, I did, that was mid december, I was told I would hear a couple weeks after that. never heard of Disabilty givin’ a time line… a span, yes, usually 6-8 months from the date of filing.

The first thing I got said within 93 days.  But anyway, it looks like it is getting approved soon.  I hope…  I didn’t  Only thing I can think of that might have slowed it down again is that I called very early jan, like the 2nd or 3rd or somewhere around there and told them about my fibro diagnosis.  So perhaps that slowed it down… which would require either re-filing or amending.  did either one of those two things happen?

I think they ammended it..  They told me to call them durring the whole process anytime that I have new medical info…. were you seen by a state-ordered specialist regarding this condition?

yep. Its getting close to the end of January here, and nothing but more bills and nothing from ssdi….     ,,,,,,,,,,    Still waiting on a respons for my application for medical assistance.  I was told that is going to take longer as well. it’s government red tape…. you SUREly knew this wasn’t a quick fix kinda deal, didn’t ya?  yer case worker tells ya that.  and under NO circumstances do those people give’ah 2 or so week timeline… that’s just not tha way tha system works in tha g’ment ass-coverin’ arena of life.

Yea, I knew it wasnt quick,, but that still didnt give me any solution as to how to live… with the house Line of credit that I can get refinanced due to no incomme / bankruptcy last year are around $2300, just for lil ol me. a refi after bankruptcy?  unless you filed homestead exemption, (not the over 65 exemption) you can’t get financed, refinanced, or a loan ta pay for yer bicycle.  homestead exemption is not available unless you have been approved for disability, so how’s this workin’ out?  i mean…. am i missin’ something here?

I filed under wisconsin law not federal bankruptcy law, many states allow you to file under state bankruptcy laws and not under federal.  In wi, as long as you have atmost 20% equity in your home, it is fully exempt from chaper 7. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I really hate to think about moving, cause of all the stress that would be and I think it would make me too fucking depressed, I know it would.  I’ve tried so hard to make this house nice for myself, I would hate to leave.  +++ If I leave the way the market is, I would not be able to see the house for anywhere near what it is morgaged out to.  It is morgaged to 110,000, and I would be luck if it sold for like 95-100 in this market, your home DEcreased in value?  impossible. appraisals are done via the internet and raised 15% automatically, and lenders use their own appraisers, free of charge that work in their favor to get loan

Back when i refininced several years ago, I had to pay like $300 to the credit union to have some apprisor come out and measure, and look over the whole house.  He came back with like a 112,000 apprisal. I paid like 79,995 for the house.  The houses in the area are all selling for like 90-95 at best. approval… you have no credit score, so i don’t know how yer doin it, as you haven’t been approved for disability, have no access to homestead exemption and have’ah bankruptcy hangin’ over yer head.  and no equity, since your house decreased in value.. (now THAT’s a first).

The whole realestate market appears to really be in the hole in the area… today’s market dictates some hefty interest rates, and lenders goin tha extra mile ta roll these fees into a refi…. but for tha life’ah me i don’t see how you’re rationalizin’ what you’re sayin’ here.  please splain.

All the refining that was done thus far was prior to bankruptcy.  Have not been able to do anything after bankruptcy… – realtors fees of like $6,000 on that, I would get like 89-96 ish, putting me in the hole like $14,000 to $21,000. So that means the bank would not even let me sell it, you could sell it all day long if yer willing to pay the difference between your loan payoff and your selling price including fees…. but that is soooo "out there" in my book.

Yea, I know, but I dont have the $$$ to do that, and it just seems nuts to have to pay… you bought your house HOW much above appraisal value?  there’s a

It was appriased at like $84,900 or something like that when i bought it and i got it for like $79,99g legality that dictates the lender to work within the appraisal value. family dwellings don’t decrease in value, that’s absured.  you’re makin’ little ta no sense… so what’am i missin’ here?

Well in terms of what I see people actually paying for homes up and down my street, I know that the best homes are only getting like 95 or so…  So i guess yes, it has decressed in value from what that appriser said a couple years ago…  so I would have to just not pay for it, let it get foreclosed upon,etc… ya filed bankruptcy, what’s a foreclosure gonna hurt?  ya seem ta have access to funds i’ve never heard of with a bankruptcy, i’m sure a foreclosure ain’t gonna hurt ya, yer not workin’ with’ah credit score here.

Yea, but the bankruptcy is done, gone overwith.  So if I stop paying now on the house, they will sure me, and they will collect all the legal fees, etc. from me if they ever can in the fiture…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So getting rid of the house i really a last resort.  Plus if it gets foreclosed upon, you know there not gonna sell it for a good price, and u know there gonna try and get the balance from me. there’s many alternatives to foreclosure, look at this link: http://www.hud.gov/foreclosure/index.cfm Since I filed bankruptcy last year, cant file again, so I would have another big chunk of change that I owe either way!!!  I cant think of anythink else to reduce the bills, I already have shaved down about everything I can, except getting rid of the internet, and I cant really see that as a good option to save $35 a month…. you need ta work with a good lender, i’m working with one now if you want her name’n phone #.  it doesn’t matter where y’are in tha country, she’ll get’er’dun. lemme know.

Thanks, yea, please do.  I think it is worth talking to them, esp since it looks like my disability will be approved soon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am finally feeling like I’m making some progress on the Fibro and stuff with this new Rheumy I’m seeing.  I’m really optimistic, and some of the treatment is really helping.  However, I feel StuCK, because, For example, I can’t see the chiro anymore, and I am supose to do that, (and my back is in pain), but I can’t cause I owe him too much money.  Same story on my allgery Shots I’m supose to get, and thoes have been helping as well… prioritze! On the flip

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Response:

my subchapter S…never filed as an employee, but independent, even in officer status… and i somehow managed ta make no money for 15 years… i dunno how that worked, but it did….

There are accountants who help folks declare themselves "volunteers" to the Corporation and never pay themselves a salary, and instead write themselves distributions but no salary. If they do this, then they pay Federal Income Tax on the distributions but no Social Security tax.  This is unacceptable to the IRS, and often distributions are re-declared by them to be taxable salaries. This is an automatic audit red flag–distributions only but no salary. Personally we pay ourselves a "reasonable salary," which is defined by what a contractor in our area would make and the gross for the year, and the rest we distribute or just keep in the corporate account for growth. In this way an S Corporation is far more advantageus than a Schedule C self-employed person, who pays self-employment tax on every profit he makes.  We don’t have to do that. Eventually the IRS would expect you to pay yourself a salary and soon. They repeatedly have ruled that an Officer would expect to get paid a salary. Some folks get lucky, but I prefer to get it right from the get-go–reasonable salary plus distributions. There are no requirements as to when to distribute (and if to distribute at all). However, we are starting to distribute in regular quarterly periods similar to a C Corp. It just looks better that way, but it is not required that distributions are done regularly.

Response:

Jamie ! good LORD… ya got’ah hook up ! don’t let Marie get out’ah yer sight, fer chrissake ! maybe you could employ her to do yer taxes and work a payment agreement, or SUMthin… but why you lettin’ an opportunity slip by ya accountant or at least she is well versed in what you need, MAKE HER AN my theory?  what’s tha worse that can happen? right. Marie can say "no". dammit, Jamie !  don’t make me come ovah theah and steal yer television. and dvds. ~tanya

Response:

my subchapter S…never filed as an employee, but independent, even in officer status… and i somehow managed ta make no money for 15 years… i dunno how that worked, but it did…. There are accountants who help folks declare themselves "volunteers" to the Corporation and never pay themselves a salary, and instead write themselves distributions but no salary. If they do this, then they pay Federal Income Tax on the distributions but no Social Security tax.  This is unacceptable to the IRS, and often distributions are re-declared by them to be taxable salaries. This is an automatic audit red flag–distributions only but no salary.

my business was purely commission based, and i performed procedures without taking a commission, i gave it to the artist i was taking the procedure from, i just WANTED to pierce, so i did, but never took payment for anything.  there were no salaries paid, and i THINK i filed as some sorta "absentee" sumthin, but it was legit… and since my corporation was me, (which sucked, cuz my personal credit was attached for at least awhile, i don’t really remember, i never got involved, my manager took care of that stuff b’cause i’m lame and can’t write’ah check or i flip out, he signed all checks, etc.) so my corporation paid 2 sets of taxes, i think one had "retail" tax involved, i had a wholesale #.  so nobody was actually "paid" thru the corporation, they actually paid the corporation.  somehow it worked, i ain’t gotta clue how, but i never had to personally pay my own money for taxes, that i know. when i say i OWN tha businesses, i MEAN it… i never RAN them, people get that confused a lot, i was’ah master delegater, cuz i have no business sense.  i can only do what i’m good at and that’s not anywhere near this kinda stuff……. but…… my house was broken into and all my records, release forms, daily, weekly, monthly reports were taken, in the 8th year of business, and i DO remember my manager "cookin books", but under the advise of the IRS, cuz i had to talk to them personally then, they wouldn’t talk to him…. and it was basically determining the shop profits as we averaged them out over i think a  3 or 4 year period, averaging the profits and increasing by that number, it was an "estimation" done per the IRS, and that worked, i guess…. maybe Jamie could do sumthin’ like that. it’s a wonder i had successful businesses, and it’s NO wonder i have been up and down 3 times and workin’ on my fourth, eh? some people are floored that i never knew ONE THING about my business, and still succeeded, i think it was dumb luck and i’m doin’ it agin.  SHOOT ME ! (even tho my lack’ah business sense never took me down, it was other factors)….  i don’t recommend it, but it werkt fer meeeeee.. LOLOL ! now that y’all are talkin’ bout this, i’m pullin’ out my disks and i’m lookin’ at this stuff.  i wonder can i even get tha disk in that hole and make it come up !… i rarely get stuff ta come up on disk, but i’m gonna, dammit…. y’all got me curious. Personally we pay ourselves a "reasonable salary," which is defined by what a contractor in our area would make and the gross for the year, and the rest we distribute or just keep in the corporate account for growth. In this way an S Corporation is far more advantageus than a Schedule C self-employed person, who pays self-employment tax on every profit he makes.  We don’t have to do that. Eventually the IRS would expect you to pay yourself a salary and soon. They repeatedly have ruled that an Officer would expect to get paid a salary. Some folks get lucky, but I prefer to get it right from the get-go–reasonable salary plus distributions.

i was never required to pay myself a salary, and they worked closely with the IRS during my "icky" time, i have no clue what the deal was, but my boyfriend just pulled out all my disks… and i’m'ah lookin. There are no requirements as to when to distribute (and if to distribute at all). However, we are starting to distribute in regular quarterly periods similar to a C Corp. It just looks better that way, but it is not required that distributions are done regularly.

is it possible that ANYbody is as dumb as me when it comes ta purveying their own businesses?  i was fortunate enough to have a manager for 16 years that quit his law practice to do this, my best friend, i trusted him, but i don’t have that this time around, i’m still countin’ on him ta get me "as much in tha know" as possible, but now i’ll be dealing with non profit and not for profit stuff and i’m like… "HUH?" i sho nuff got my business plans intact tho, tha easy stuff i can do. my advertising’s in place, my advertisers for my magazine, the businesses within the business are ready ta rock, everything’s in line ta be up ta code, i got tha media scheduled, but i can’t read a paragraph. sumthin’s definitely wrong in my world. and right ! ~tanya, CPA and corporate tax attorney for 7 zillion multi-million dollah corp. in a town near YOU… extraordinaire… (and genius, ta boot.) lalalalala

Response:

If you were a Subchapter S Corp, then you have the 1120S and the K-1’s. To the 1040 you add the Schedule E with the K-1 info.

my subchapter S was attached to my personal finances.  it wasn’t much (or any, in fact) protection of my personal assets til i reached some sorta fork in tha road (i dunno what it was, ask my accountant… i sure don’t talk to him, i don’t understand what he’s talkin’ about) that relieved my personal attachment.  i also had independent contractors that seemed to work well in that corporate structure, and never filed as an employee, but independent, even in officer status… and i somehow managed ta make no money for 15 years… i dunno how that worked, but it did, and i might be statin’ sum stuff that’s totally off base, i dunno.  but if Jamie starts a Sub S corp, can he do so with a bankruptcy? *If you need help, please e mail me*. I do my Subchapter S corporate taxes just because it’s fun and very easy.

manohmanohman, tha stuff some people find "easy" makes me SICK !  i feel soooooooooooooooooo dumb…. i’m thinkin’ you should give me’n some other folks a "smartenin’ up class"…. do an e-book… hell, i’d buy it in’ah new york SECOND !  i can understand it when i read about it online but once my own stuff’s put in tha mix? …. i’m done. stick’ah fork in me. it becomes more complicated than mixin’ muh hair dye and that’s not good.  is that normal for people ta freak when it’s their own shit as opposed to tha "general terms" that seem so simplistic when the terms don’t involve them in financial arenas? (please say yes.) LOL ~tanya

Response:

HI, I’m Kinda freaking out because I have tax issues to get taken care of, (taxes that need to get filed personal, and old business) for the past 3 years now.  They are complex.

did you file personal or corporate bankruptcy? did you file chapter 7 or 13? generally, if bankruptcy is filed, the taxes are assessed within days of the corporate dissolution, taxes generally assessed and obligated to shareholers.  what type of corporation did you have? and generally, the IRS doesn’t fuck with bankruptcy court. what kinda business did you have an were you incorporated and if so, why type of corporation? if yer business went ker-plunk after 3 years, are ya tellin’ me that ya profited wildly and took a sudden fall at tha end of this term?  was it a cash business?  I need the help of a accountant or cpa, and I don’t have the money to do them.

no ya don’t, bankruptcy court decides these matters.  it’s cut’n dried. again… personal or corporate bankruptcy?  chapter 7 or 13? what type of corporation? PLEASE respond to the above 3 questions. So I am freaking out a bit on this. I get 1, 2, 3 medical bills a day for co-pays, deductiables, and co-pays that the insurance doesnt or didnt cover.  I can’t even see my chiropractor anymore because I own him a couple hundred bucks.

maybe ya oughta sans yer addiction ta medical treatment (especially a fuckin’ chiro, fer chrissake)… good god, Jamie.. you can definitely live without THAT treatment Even when I get some income at some point, I don’t know if I’ll ever get caught up on all this crap.

were your taxes assessed subsequent to bankruptcy?  if so, there’s ultra-leverage within this arena following bankruptcy.  . if you had no corporation, i assume you were in a "cash based" business, and reported only the minimum dollar amount required to stay just a weeeeeeee bit uner the bottom level tax bracket, thus being required to pay zilch fer taxes. I still have not heard anything on my SSDI, despite there promise to get a descision to me multiple times now.  I just called any left a message asking them to call me back and let me know what is going on.  I was supose to get a decision in mid Novenber, then I was told late November, then I was told that It would be longer, then i was told to come in to a private doctor for testing, I did, that was mid december, I was told I would hear a couple weeks after that.

never heard of Disabilty givin’ a time line… a span, yes, usually 6-8 months from the date of filing.  I didn’t  Only thing I can think of that might have slowed it down again is that I called very early jan, like the 2nd or 3rd or somewhere around there and told them about my fibro diagnosis.  So perhaps that slowed it down…

which would require either re-filing or amending.  did either one of those two things happen? were you seen by a state-ordered specialist regarding this condition? Its getting close to the end of January here, and nothing but more bills and nothing from ssdi….     ,,,,,,,,,,    Still waiting on a respons for my application for medical assistance.  I was told that is going to take longer as well.

it’s government red tape…. you SUREly knew this wasn’t a quick fix kinda deal, didn’t ya?  yer case worker tells ya that.  and under NO circumstances do those people give’ah 2 or so week timeline… that’s just not tha way tha system works in tha g’ment ass-coverin’ arena of life. with the house Line of credit that I can get refinanced due to no incomme / bankruptcy last year are around $2300, just for lil ol me.

a refi after bankruptcy?  unless you filed homestead exemption, (not the over 65 exemption) you can’t get financed, refinanced, or a loan ta pay for yer bicycle.  homestead exemption is not available unless you have been approved for disability, so how’s this workin’ out?  i mean…. am i missin’ something here? I really hate to think about moving, cause of all the stress that would be and I think it would make me too fucking depressed, I know it would.  I’ve tried so hard to make this house nice for myself, I would hate to leave.  +++ If I leave the way the market is, I would not be able to see the house for anywhere near what it is morgaged out to.  It is morgaged to 110,000, and I would be luck if it sold for like 95-100 in this market,

your home DEcreased in value?  impossible. appraisals are done via the internet and raised 15% automatically, and lenders use their own appraisers, free of charge that work in their favor to get loan approval… you have no credit score, so i don’t know how yer doin it, as you haven’t been approved for disability, have no access to homestead exemption and have’ah bankruptcy hangin’ over yer head.  and no equity, since your house decreased in value.. (now THAT’s a first). today’s market dictates some hefty interest rates, and lenders goin tha extra mile ta roll these fees into a refi…. but for tha life’ah me i don’t see how you’re rationalizin’ what you’re sayin’ here.  please splain. – realtors fees of like $6,000 on that, I would get like 89-96 ish, putting me in the hole like $14,000 to $21,000. So that means the bank would not even let me sell it,

you could sell it all day long if yer willing to pay the difference between your loan payoff and your selling price including fees…. but that is soooo "out there" in my book. you bought your house HOW much above appraisal value?  there’s a legality that dictates the lender to work within the appraisal value. family dwellings don’t decrease in value, that’s absured.  you’re makin’ little ta no sense… so what’am i missin’ here?  so I would have to just not pay for it, let it get foreclosed upon,etc…

ya filed bankruptcy, what’s a foreclosure gonna hurt?  ya seem ta have access to funds i’ve never heard of with a bankruptcy, i’m sure a foreclosure ain’t gonna hurt ya, yer not workin’ with’ah credit score here. So getting rid of the house i really a last resort.  Plus if it gets foreclosed upon, you know there not gonna sell it for a good price, and u know there gonna try and get the balance from me.

there’s many alternatives to foreclosure, look at this link: http://www.hud.gov/foreclosure/index.cfm Since I filed bankruptcy last year, cant file again, so I would have another big chunk of change that I owe either way!!!  I cant think of anythink else to reduce the bills, I already have shaved down about everything I can, except getting rid of the internet, and I cant really see that as a good option to save $35 a month….

you need ta work with a good lender, i’m working with one now if you want her name’n phone #.  it doesn’t matter where y’are in tha country, she’ll get’er’dun. lemme know. I am finally feeling like I’m making some progress on the Fibro and stuff with this new Rheumy I’m seeing.  I’m really optimistic, and some of the treatment is really helping.  However, I feel StuCK, because, For example, I can’t see the chiro anymore, and I am supose to do that, (and my back is in pain), but I can’t cause I owe him too much money.  Same story on my allgery Shots I’m supose to get, and thoes have been helping as well…

prioritze! On the flip side of that, Im still not thinking I am ready to jump back into any type of regular work.  I am thinking I’d either have to try something really part time or try something self-employeed.  Problem is I still get overwhelmed really easily…  I’m pretty sure that Anxeity summs up how I feel a lot of the time, even though I do a lot better with anxeity now than I did in the past.  Biggest thing that SUCKS here with benefits and assistance from the state and county is that if I work I risk losing benefits,,, If I can work, no Biggie, if I try to work, handle something for like 6 weeks or what not, and then cant handle it, then I have to re-apply for all the benefits again!!!  So I am not confidant yet that I can do anything that permenatly,, so I don’t think I can risk losing my benefits (or I should say the prospect of benefits from ssdi at this point)  the only benefit I am getting is a whopping $152 a month is food stamps.

Jamie?  talk to a financial advisor. if he/she can work with you, suggest (or they will) a contingency arrangement. I decided that I really wanted to try and get more active with doing some stuff again, so I am tryin some volunteer work.  I helped out at a local community center for the developmentally disabled for 4 hours today

VOLUNTEEEEEER?  DUDE !  IF YOU CAN VOLUNTEER, YOU CAN WORK FOR THA ALMIGHTY DOLLAR !  (omg….. no he did NOT just say that.)  Went well, and they appricated the help.

well who don’t like free labor?  (lord.) ::shakin head:: I just have too many days that are UP and then down for a few days with energy, anxeity, PaIN to be able to be relyed upon to do something as consistant as a regular JoB.  I wish I could think of some other options.  But to me it looks like, work real job =  make $$ = lose benefits and prospect of benefits = anxeity & strees & pain = need to limit work = less money = need to re-apply for benefits and wait 6 months to see if it is approved again.

that is NOT the only option.  you can work and get g’ment assistance, as well.. you can also provide thru yer corporation, should you choose yer own business, yer own benefit package…. they’re competitive as HELL right now for business owners, Stellar Network.com has a kick-ass him and ask about it.  make your business non-profit or not-for-profit, there’s many advantages.  Nice hun??  Self-employed sounds more – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – flexiable, but from past experiance, it is often very stressful! In terms of self-employment, I looked at doing some freelance photography work, but I need new & more equiptment.  This will cost me a

… read more »

Response:

There’s a world of difference between a C and an S. With a C, the corporation pays corporate taxes, makes estimated payments, etc. With an S, there is no corporate tax on the fed level, but there may be in your state (not in Florida). The profits are federally taxed at the shareholder level, whether or not they were ever distributed. The first thing you need to do is to grab WHATEVER you have and 1) Find out what the corporate status was.  You need authorization from the IRS to file as Subchapter S. If you never did this, then you are automatically a C.

Now that you say this, I know it had to be a S corp because we wanted it setup so we could take profit / loss onto our personall taxes.  I know there was something that the lawerys did for the irs and such, but I don’t know if it ever was sent in or anything about it.  My guess would be to say it didnt get sent in, but I cant be sure.  I don’t know at all how to tell.  I would ask the lawyers, but my old company owes them about $3,000 and they are going to be less than useless now…. That’s the *first step.*  We can’t go further than from here.

Is there any way to verify this with the IRS? company at all other than bank statements. Did you use ledgers, a Dome Book, or a software program? You need

A software program we used for like from sept till april or so, then we pretty much stoped doing much, we tried toget stuff into quick books, but my X never really got anything in there other than some bills for clients.  The origonal software program crashed and the backups failed.  All records of the first 6-7 months of business were lost. I know we had K-1’s if that means anything? or we were supose to, but they never got done. records of gross income and expenses. You need to have IRS authorization papers that accepted your request for S status. Has your

I am 90% sure that we never got this.  I never saw it, and I am pretty sure I would have come across this at some point if it had come. If it is really a C-corp, then do I sitll have any libility as far as you know or is the company just dead and I don’t even have to do anything else about the corporation?? When I got paid, I got a check that we took taxes and stuff out like a normal employee…. X filed? Does she have the records?

My X was just engaged to me, so she just F’ed everything up and has no direct responsibility for any of it.  No She has no records.  Most everything was Either lost in the software carsh or never created (I didn;t really know how bad she was doing at the record keeping untill things were going down hill towards the summer and I was getting too sick and too out of money to do shit about it.  I always though that it I was able to turn things around I would be able to pay an accountant / lawyer to get crap strightened out.). Well, the 1040s are no big deal. It’s the corporate info (probably also in your state) that you need to find, especially since all the corporate info gets translated to the personal returns in terms of dividends (C) or distributions (S). I recommend that you find *whatever* paperwork you have and then go to the IRS and state income tax department and take it from there. However, without records, all I can see is an Offer in Compromise. Just my humble opinion.

What would the offer in compermise mean?  As you know from my first post, I have no money, and from what I can tell, I don’t see why I would owe any money with all the losses… Now I am sure you can see why this whole thing is such a freaking mess!!! and why I am so confused and anxious about what to do…. Jamie

Response:

Now that you say this, I know it had to be a S corp because we wanted it setup so we could take profit / loss onto our personall taxes.  I know there was something that the lawerys did for the irs and such, but I don’t know if it ever was sent in or anything about it.

You can call the IRS and inquire as to the status of the Corporation. There’s no harm in asking them to send you a copy of the verification letter. I still have my copy when I started my Corp in 2002. I don’t see a need to get a hold of the lawyers since the IRS should have a record that they sent you a verification letter. Did you use ledgers, a Dome Book, or a software program? You need All records of the first 6-7 months of business were lost.

Hmmmm….. Without backup discs there is nothing to be done here. I know we had K-1’s if that means anything? or we were supose to, but they never got done.

K-1’s are easy to do provided there are no "passive shareholders" and (IOW) every shareholder participated in the business. Each shareholder gets a K-1 by January 31, listing his or her share of the company profits for the year, regardless of whether or not they received any of the profits in the form of distributions. They then take the K-1 information of THEIR share of the profits (distributed or not), and transfer that to the 1040, line 17, and also attach a Schedule E where they can list profits and even expenses the company never paid them for (unreimbursed expenses). The 1040 should include a Schedule E, but the K-1 is not necessary–it is for the shareholder’s information only. Your federal 1120S Corporate Income Tax form is only for informational purposes. You include a copy of  every K-1given to all shareholders. I sometimes forgot to do this; the IRS reminded me with a letter all the time. If it is really a C-corp, then do I sitll have any libility as far as you know or is the company just dead and I don’t even have to do anything else about the corporation??

The C Corp is alive and well until you send the "Final" return to them and declare a closing. Same with the S-Corp. You can call the IRS and check this out, but first, I would inquire as to the status. My X…has no records.  Most everything was either lost in the software carsh or never created….

Here’s where I would be thinking in terms of closing and and taking it from there. What would the offer in compermise mean?  As you know from my first post, I have no money, and from what I can tell, I don’t see why I would owe any money with all the losses…

There are ways to sort of get around that. A good book to get is "Stand Up to the IRS." It’s sounds like a nasty title, but it clearly explains the little "nuances" you can use to get yourself as much as possible off the hook. The key is this: Federal Tax Court. The IRS will do anything to avoid Tax Court because they do not control it. You have a lor of cards and lately I have noticed that the IRS has become a lot friendlier these last few years. There are also tax abeyances and even elimination of tax debt under special circumstances that the book explains. I would look into the book because it is written by a tax lawyer and easy to understand. Now I am sure you can see why this whole thing is such a freaking mess!!! and why I am so confused and anxious about what to do….

Well, I am confused about my anxiety and depression. So we sort of are in the same boat. Lots of people here are. To sum up, I would recommend: 1) Inquire as to status. Ask for copy of verification letter. 2) Get whatever records you can get–bank transaction slips, any disks if at all, any record of anything at all. 3) Get the book. 4) Take it from there. The book may guide you. With the info in it, you can prepare yourself gradually and patiently to put this once and for all behind you. It will take time, but each new step you take will begin to ease the anxiety. You will have to close the Corp eventually; same with the state. You may have to do some "estimated" returns, etc.; but I think I would read the book first to get you started. Your local library may have it. But personally, I think these four steps should get you started on the road.

Response:

this is why I never formed  a corporation. This is for normal people. I realize when I look around everyone is moving forward and slower . Me fast and not getting anywhere.But its better then an institution although , I wish my brain didn’t go where I should go if I had no business doing it to begin with.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now that you say this, I know it had to be a S corp because we wanted it setup so we could take profit / loss onto our personall taxes.  I know there was something that the lawerys did for the irs and such, but I don’t know if it ever was sent in or anything about it. You can call the IRS and inquire as to the status of the Corporation. There’s no harm in asking them to send you a copy of the verification letter. I still have my copy when I started my Corp in 2002. I don’t see a need to get a hold of the lawyers since the IRS should have a record that they sent you a verification letter. Did you use ledgers, a Dome Book, or a software program? You need All records of the first 6-7 months of business were lost. Hmmmm….. Without backup discs there is nothing to be done here. I know we had K-1’s if that means anything? or we were supose to, but they never got done. K-1’s are easy to do provided there are no "passive shareholders" and (IOW) every shareholder participated in the business. Each shareholder gets a K-1 by January 31, listing his or her share of the company profits for the year, regardless of whether or not they received any of the profits in the form of distributions. They then take the K-1 information of THEIR share of the profits (distributed or not), and transfer that to the 1040, line 17, and also attach a Schedule E where they can list profits and even expenses the company never paid them for (unreimbursed expenses). The 1040 should include a Schedule E, but the K-1 is not necessary–it is for the shareholder’s information only. Your federal 1120S Corporate Income Tax form is only for informational purposes. You include a copy of  every K-1given to all shareholders. I sometimes forgot to do this; the IRS reminded me with a letter all the time. If it is really a C-corp, then do I sitll have any libility as far as you know or is the company just dead and I don’t even have to do anything else about the corporation?? The C Corp is alive and well until you send the "Final" return to them and declare a closing. Same with the S-Corp. You can call the IRS and check this out, but first, I would inquire as to the status. My X…has no records.  Most everything was either lost in the software carsh or never created…. Here’s where I would be thinking in terms of closing and and taking it from there. What would the offer in compermise mean?  As you know from my first post, I have no money, and from what I can tell, I don’t see why I would owe any money with all the losses… There are ways to sort of get around that. A good book to get is "Stand Up to the IRS." It’s sounds like a nasty title, but it clearly explains the little "nuances" you can use to get yourself as much as possible off the hook. The key is this: Federal Tax Court. The IRS will do anything to avoid Tax Court because they do not control it. You have a lor of cards and lately I have noticed that the IRS has become a lot friendlier these last few years. There are also tax abeyances and even elimination of tax debt under special circumstances that the book explains. I would look into the book because it is written by a tax lawyer and easy to understand. Now I am sure you can see why this whole thing is such a freaking mess!!! and why I am so confused and anxious about what to do…. Well, I am confused about my anxiety and depression. So we sort of are in the same boat. Lots of people here are. To sum up, I would recommend: 1) Inquire as to status. Ask for copy of verification letter. 2) Get whatever records you can get–bank transaction slips, any disks if at all, any record of anything at all. 3) Get the book. 4) Take it from there. The book may guide you. With the info in it, you can prepare yourself gradually and patiently to put this once and for all behind you. It will take time, but each new step you take will begin to ease the anxiety. You will have to close the Corp eventually; same with the state. You may have to do some "estimated" returns, etc.; but I think I would read the book first to get you started. Your local library may have it. But personally, I think these four steps should get you started on the road.

Response:

Correct.  Have not filed. Well sort of.  I had a wisconsin (C I think, maybe a S as your mention below…) Coporation.  I started it in 2003, and had transactions in 2003 and 2004.  I did not do taxes at all for this business, as by the time I was supose to file the first return ( sept 2004 I think) we were closing down due to my health problems.

There’s a world of difference between a C and an S. With a C, the corporation pays corporate taxes, makes estimated payments, etc. With an S, there is no corporate tax on the fed level, but there may be in your state (not in Florida). The profits are federally taxed at the shareholder level, whether or not they were ever distributed. The first thing you need to do is to grab WHATEVER you have and 1) Find out what the corporate status was.  You need authorization from the IRS to file as Subchapter S. If you never did this, then you are automatically a C. That’s the *first step.*  We can’t go further than from here. Yes.  It’s mainly that I have no clue on the corporate taxes, and on top of that my X did the book keeping for the company, and it really is a freaking mess, it pretty much amount to not having any meaningful records for the company at all other than bank statements.

Did you use ledgers, a Dome Book, or a software program? You need records of gross income and expenses. You need to have IRS authorization papers that accepted your request for S status. Has your X filed? Does she have the records? So overall, this is what it looks like: No taxes filed for: Corporation 2003  (Compay that was started in 2003) Corporation 2004  (Compay that was started in 2003) (Also no final papers were sent to IRS) Personal 2003 Personal 2004 Personal 2004 (not due yet, I know, but I don’t know the old information like loses to put on this return)

Well, the 1040s are no big deal. It’s the corporate info (probably also in your state) that you need to find, especially since all the corporate info gets translated to the personal returns in terms of dividends (C) or distributions (S). I recommend that you find *whatever* paperwork you have and then go to the IRS and state income tax department and take it from there. However, without records, all I can see is an Offer in Compromise. Just my humble opinion.

Response:

HI, Let’s take one thing at a time: Are you stating that you haven’t filed during the last three years, or

Correct.  Have not filed. that you need to make amendments?  Were you self-employed at that time?

Well sort of.  I had a wisconsin (C I think, maybe a S as your mention below…) Coporation.  I started it in 2003, and had transactions in 2003 and 2004.  I did not do taxes at all for this business, as by the time I was supose to file the first return ( sept 2004 I think) we were closing down due to my health problems. Self-employment is a simple Schedule C which you attach to your 1040. It’s no big deal.  Maybe you know all this perhaps. If you were a Subchapter S Corp, then you have the 1120S and the K-1’s.

Yes.  It’s mainly that I have no clue on the corporate taxes, and on top of that my X did the book keeping for the company, and it really is a freaking mess, it pretty much amount to not having any meaningful records for the company at all other than bank statements. Any suggestions on how to approach the mess since I have so few records from the company?? Were talking about like $90,000 in sales total between sept 2003 and aug-sept 2004 when we closed.  Were talking about $175,000 in loans put in, plus a good $50,000 – $75,000+ (deffinatly on the higher end of you include all the things I put on my personal credit cards, many of which where discharged in my personal bankruptcy, don’t know if that makes any difference or not.) of my money put into the business.  So I figured there is no way I could owe taxes on it… To the 1040 you add the Schedule E with the K-1 info.  *If you need help, please e mail me*. I do my Subchapter S corporate taxes just because it’s fun and very easy.

Thank You.  I really appricate the advice.  This is / has been a big concern for a long time now. So overall, this is what it looks like: No taxes filed for: Corporation 2003  (Compay that was started in 2003) Corporation 2004  (Compay that was started in 2003) (Also no final papers were sent to IRS) Personal 2003 Personal 2004 Personal 2004 (not due yet, I know, but I don’t know the old information like loses to put on this return) On top of this, I am unsure of any State / Federal / Sales Tax / other business taxes, that are owed / might be owed. I know there is a record on the wisconsin court records site for some tax that is owed, but it is in the corporations name, not my name, so I don’t know if I have to worry about it.  Also, I did file bankruptcy, so I don’t want to worry about anything that I am exempt from due to bankruptcy or due to the fact that the company was a corporation (I know this might not protect me from anything, but I though I would mention it.). Thank you again, Jamie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe others can help you with the other stuff.

Response:

I’m Kinda freaking out because I have tax issues to get taken care of, (taxes that need to get filed personal, and old business) for the past 3 years now.  They are complex.  I need the help of a accountant or cpa, and I don’t have the money to do them.

Let’s take one thing at a time: Are you stating that you haven’t filed during the last three years, or that you need to make amendments?  Were you self-employed at that time? Self-employment is a simple Schedule C which you attach to your 1040. It’s no big deal.  Maybe you know all this perhaps. If you were a Subchapter S Corp, then you have the 1120S and the K-1’s. To the 1040 you add the Schedule E with the K-1 info.  *If you need help, please e mail me*. I do my Subchapter S corporate taxes just because it’s fun and very easy. Maybe others can help you with the other stuff.

Response:

Question:

Hi, Who can give me accounting information on Ansett airline company of Australia (and their recent collapse)? Any good links to sources are also more than welcome. All the best, Rick Esmeijer

Response:

Use the internet search capability. ie. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Ansett+airline+collapse&btnG=Goog le+Search http://www.google.com Ansett airline collapse This results in a number of links, go from there.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Who can give me accounting information on Ansett airline company of Australia (and their recent collapse)? Any good links to sources are also more than welcome. All the best, Rick Esmeijer

Response:

Question:

I see your points, here, but unfortunately, the original discussion was too many posts ago, and I can’t remember how they were discussing historical costs, when I agreed.  :o) Sorry.  Good post, though. Gina M. Dent BookSmart St. Louis, MO

| I’m not a CPA, but I couldn’t agree more,  Messing with day-to-day market |values is a waste of valuable time for the most part, in my opinion.  - |Gina M. Dent | | I’m a 30 year CPA who happens to believe that historical cost is the best |approach for the intended goals of accounting.  - Mike Lewis, CPA | |Perhaps we could discuss on the intended goals of accounting before |deciding on the valustion methods that best serve our purposes. | |In the 1st Era (12th to 17th Century) of accounting, the job of an |accountant was primarily cost determination with the owner-manager of small |firms interested in determining the profit and loss of various ventures. |Costs here refer to original or historic costs. | |In the 2nd Era (18th to 19th Century), debt capital became common and |creditors lend/grant credit based on financial soundness of the firm and |basis was often the financial statements.  Accountants tend to be |conservative and adopted historical costs given that creditors were more |concern about the overstatements of the financial reports. | |In the 3rd and Present Era, the concept of stewardship was recognised as |utmost important given the separation of ownership and management control |of today’s corporation.  However, since early 1960s, emphasis has been |placed on decision-making aspects of accounting information. | |Information on stewardship, though important, is not the sole and main |purpose of accounting information.  Decisions on what amount of assets and |forms of assets to be held and how those assets are to be financed require |more than Historical Cost Accounting (HCA). | | | 1The cost of an item is fact, not an ever-changing opinion of what |others think is should have been; | |The cost of an item is fact, this is indisputable.  However, a piece of |information is useful not because it is a fact but because it is relevant |to the decision which we need to make. | |For example, if you have bought a piece of property at $100,000 (HC) years |ago and was valued by independent surveyor to be worth $1,000,000 (CC).  If |costs is all-important, you would have gladly sell it to someone who offer |you $200m000 ie. 100% profit.  I won’t though. | | | 2 Don’t forget the idea that you view the business as a going concern. |The balance sheet is not an estimate of what the components might be sold |for on a given day.  What buyer in his right mind offers book value to buy |a company? | |Whether the firm intends to use or sell an asset is not pertinent; what is |relevant is that the price of the asset has changed.  Using current cost as |opposed to historical cost would reflect the holding gain component in teh |income statement.  Thiss holding gain is based on what actually happens in |the current period and not what might occur ie. on the intention of the |company. | |To continue from previous example, had you followed the HCA, you would have |recorded a profit of $100m000 which is 100% of cost.  You would perhaps |based on this figure and commended the manager for a job well done. |However, if CCA had been used instead, a holding gain of $900,000 and loss |on realisation of $800,000 would have resulted and gives a better picture |of performance. | |One point to note is, going concern assumption does not underlie the use of |HCA. | | | 3 Market value is only as good as yesterday’s news anyway; and finally | |Well, market value is as good as yesterday’s news.  What about historical |costs?  Could be yesterday’s, last month’s, last year’s or even news ten |years ago.  Given yesterday’s news, one would at least be able to use it as |a point of reference, make mental adjustments to derive at today’s value |and based upon it to project future performance. | |One major problem with HCA is the additivity problem which result in the |inability to arrive at a point of reference given that it adds yesterday’s, |last month’s, last year’s news and news ten years ago together. | |In view of the future being uncertain, present is nearer to the future than |the past is and present is definitely a better proxy to project future and |the past. | | | 4 The P&L is measured in yearly slices of time.  In such small |increments the average affect of market value change is of little |consequence, not to mention the extra cost of trying to keep track of it. | |The average effect may be small within yearly slice of time but the |aggregate effect over teh years is not.  Remember, the nature of HCA |necessitates the valuation of items at cost even if they were purchased 10 |years ago. | | |Mark

Response:

I’m not a CPA, but I couldn’t agree more,  Messing with day-to-day market

values is a waste of valuable time for the most part, in my opinion.  - Gina M. Dent I’m a 30 year CPA who happens to believe that historical cost is the best

approach for the intended goals of accounting.  - Mike Lewis, CPA Perhaps we could discuss on the intended goals of accounting before deciding on the valustion methods that best serve our purposes. In the 1st Era (12th to 17th Century) of accounting, the job of an accountant was primarily cost determination with the owner-manager of small firms interested in determining the profit and loss of various ventures. Costs here refer to original or historic costs. In the 2nd Era (18th to 19th Century), debt capital became common and creditors lend/grant credit based on financial soundness of the firm and basis was often the financial statements.  Accountants tend to be conservative and adopted historical costs given that creditors were more concern about the overstatements of the financial reports. In the 3rd and Present Era, the concept of stewardship was recognised as utmost important given the separation of ownership and management control of today’s corporation.  However, since early 1960s, emphasis has been placed on decision-making aspects of accounting information. Information on stewardship, though important, is not the sole and main purpose of accounting information.  Decisions on what amount of assets and forms of assets to be held and how those assets are to be financed require more than Historical Cost Accounting (HCA). 1The cost of an item is fact, not an ever-changing opinion of what

others think is should have been; The cost of an item is fact, this is indisputable.  However, a piece of information is useful not because it is a fact but because it is relevant to the decision which we need to make. For example, if you have bought a piece of property at $100,000 (HC) years ago and was valued by independent surveyor to be worth $1,000,000 (CC).  If costs is all-important, you would have gladly sell it to someone who offer you $200m000 ie. 100% profit.  I won’t though. 2 Don’t forget the idea that you view the business as a going concern.

The balance sheet is not an estimate of what the components might be sold for on a given day.  What buyer in his right mind offers book value to buy a company? Whether the firm intends to use or sell an asset is not pertinent; what is relevant is that the price of the asset has changed.  Using current cost as opposed to historical cost would reflect the holding gain component in teh income statement.  Thiss holding gain is based on what actually happens in the current period and not what might occur ie. on the intention of the company. To continue from previous example, had you followed the HCA, you would have recorded a profit of $100m000 which is 100% of cost.  You would perhaps based on this figure and commended the manager for a job well done. However, if CCA had been used instead, a holding gain of $900,000 and loss on realisation of $800,000 would have resulted and gives a better picture of performance. One point to note is, going concern assumption does not underlie the use of HCA. 3 Market value is only as good as yesterday’s news anyway; and finally

Well, market value is as good as yesterday’s news.  What about historical costs?  Could be yesterday’s, last month’s, last year’s or even news ten years ago.  Given yesterday’s news, one would at least be able to use it as a point of reference, make mental adjustments to derive at today’s value and based upon it to project future performance. One major problem with HCA is the additivity problem which result in the inability to arrive at a point of reference given that it adds yesterday’s, last month’s, last year’s news and news ten years ago together. In view of the future being uncertain, present is nearer to the future than the past is and present is definitely a better proxy to project future and the past. 4 The P&L is measured in yearly slices of time.  In such small

increments the average affect of market value change is of little consequence, not to mention the extra cost of trying to keep track of it. The average effect may be small within yearly slice of time but the aggregate effect over teh years is not.  Remember, the nature of HCA necessitates the valuation of items at cost even if they were purchased 10 years ago. Mark

Response:

Can someone please tell me more in detail what Historical Cost Accounting means.. and why do we use it… how does it benefit..or anything more about it. Thank  you. Ernest

Response:

Hi, historical cost is the old tradittional way of accounting if an asset was purchased 5 years ago and had a 10 yr life (no relevance), it will always be shown in the accounts at its original cost, from that accumulated depreciation will be subtracted. The original cost is used for capital gains calcs, lets say it was sold for higher than the historical cost, a cap gain will apply lets say it is sold higher than the depreciated value, but lower than historical cost, that higher amount is taxable as it is an amount of depreciation allowed but not needed. The other methods are – market value (hard to apply), current cost, replacement cost This brings in all sorts of theories as to how and what to do in accounting The benefit of historical cost is that it is fact not opinion Peter   Can someone please tell me more in detail what Historical Cost Accounting means.. and why do we use it… how does it benefit..or anything more about it.   Thank  you.   Ernest

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Question:

The company I do the books for has traded advertising for some installation labour on their computer. Do I set the advertising up as a payable and the Service done as a receivable and then use another G/L account to zero these two? Or not enter either into the books?

Response:

How about recording the service as income and the advertising as an expense? Like amounts would off-set each other.

Response:

This is simply a barter arrangement.  You would record the installation labor as normal service revenue, and debit a barter exchange account.  The advertising would be recorded to the axpense account and credited to the barter exchange.  In essence, when all barter transactions are complete the exchange account should equal zero.  For example, you exchange $100 of labor for $100 of advertising. Barter Exchange                    100            Service Revenue                        100 Advertising Expense                100             Barter Exchange                        100 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The company I do the books for has traded advertising for some installation labour on their computer. Do I set the advertising up as a payable and the Service done as a receivable and then use another G/L account to zero these two? Or not enter either into the books?

Response:

I handle barter in the following way. 1.  Set up a new bank account named barter. 2.  Enter the payable and recievable the way you regularly do. 3.  Use the account named Barter to to enter a deposit for the payment of the recievable and the payment of the payable.  At the end of the transaction, the barter account should be at $0.00. You can also handle it through debit and credit memos and slide them through a neutral account such as bank transfers which always requires you to have a $0.00 balance. I prefer the use of the Barter account simply because I can find both sides of the transaction in one account. KG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The company I do the books for has traded advertising for some installation labour on their computer. Do I set the advertising up as a payable and the Service done as a receivable and then use another G/L account to zero these two? Or not enter either into the books?

Response:

I would record them just as you have noted.  Debit expense for the advertising you receive with a credit in the A/R account of the customer and then credit your revenue for the labor with a debit to the same customer account to bring it to zero.  It would be my position that the transactions must be recorded on the financials to maintain a record of the transactions.  You can think of it this way, all transactions are in a sense bartered transactions with the currency as the intermediary.  I believe the IRS would want to see the transaction recorded as well. Hope this helps. Don   The company I do the books for has traded advertising for some installation   labour on their computer.   Do I set the advertising up as a payable and the Service done as a   receivable and then use another G/L account to zero these two?   Or not enter either into the books?

Response:

Determine the costs of your labour for the installation on their computer and charge it to advertising expense. Your credit will be your labour expense. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The company I do the books for has traded advertising for some installation labour on their computer. Do I set the advertising up as a payable and the Service done as a receivable and then use another G/L account to zero these two? Or not enter either into the books?

Response:

Andrew, Consult Accounting Principles Board Opinion No. 29, "Accounting for Nonmonetary Transactions" (APB 29) for your answer.  Mr. Roberts is on point but APB 29 will spell it out for you if there are additional details to your transaction then you previously wrote.  Hope this helps.     I think you add both at fair market value and recognize a gain/loss on the difference.  I didn’t look it up, but this is the best I can recall.         The company I do the books for has traded advertising for some installation         labour on their computer.         Do I set the advertising up as a payable and the Service done as a         receivable and then use another G/L account to zero these two?         Or not enter either into the books?

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Question:

James Bond wrote … I have an outstanding invoice from a customer that will not pay it.  I want to right it off and get it out of my receivables.

Look in HELP under BAD DEBTS.

Response:

Hi 007! want to right it off and get it out of my receivables. Can someone suggest how to accomplish this in MYOB.

You do this by posting a "negative" sale — use a sales invoice, select your deadbeat customer, select your "bad debt" expense account, post the $$ (or "pound") value of the write-off with a minus sign (ie -100) and post the sale. Then, select "settle credits" from the sales screen and offset the original invoice with this negative sale you created. ps:    if you charged VAT on the original invoice, be sure to claim this back on you next remittance.

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I have an outstanding invoice from a customer that will not pay it.  I want to right it off and get it out of my receivables. Can someone suggest how to accomplish this in MYOB.

HELP/CUE CARDS/SEARCH/FIND….bad (for Bad Debt) Hope this helps! Mike      <<<<<<  MIKE FISHER & ASSOCIATES                                      …oOo…                "The Help Line for Small Business"  Computer, Accounting and Bookkeeping Support in NQ                 Ph (07) 4779 6761 or 018 180 684                    www.ozemail.com.au/~mfisher

Response:

Use payment from Customer option in the Sales module as though it is a payment. Then, use GL journal to reverse the entry from bank ( Dr Bank, Cr Bad Debts).

Sorry but Patrick’s w’ong Credit Bad Debt??????      <<<<<<  MIKE FISHER & ASSOCIATES                                      …oOo…                "The Help Line for Small Business"  Computer, Accounting and Bookkeeping Support in NQ                 Ph (07) 4779 6761 or 018 180 684                    www.ozemail.com.au/~mfisher

Response:

Not sure of the specifics of MYOB.  But you could raise a credit note perhaps? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone- I have an outstanding invoice from a customer that will not pay it.  I want to right it off and get it out of my receivables. Can someone suggest how to accomplish this in MYOB. Thanks in advance, please post to group.

Response:

Accounting entries should be Dr Bad Debt, Cr Bank. Apologies for mistake made and confusion. Regards, Patrick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone- I have an outstanding invoice from a customer that will not pay it.  I want to right it off and get it out of my receivables. Can someone suggest how to accomplish this in MYOB. Thanks in advance, please post to group.

Response:

Anyone- I have an outstanding invoice from a customer that will not pay it.  I want to right it off and get it out of my receivables. Can someone suggest how to accomplish this in MYOB. Thanks in advance, please post to group.

Response:

Use payment from Customer option in the Sales module as though it is a payment. Then, use GL journal to reverse the entry from bank ( Dr Bank, Cr Bad Debts). Regards, Patrick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone- I have an outstanding invoice from a customer that will not pay it.  I want to right it off and get it out of my receivables. Can someone suggest how to accomplish this in MYOB. Thanks in advance, please post to group.

Response:

Hello, Is there an easy way to get MYOB to include previous unpaid balances when it creates invoices?  I am using MYOB version 7.0. Thanks, Bruce Demske

Response:

Is there an easy way to get MYOB to include previous unpaid balances when it creates invoices?  I am using MYOB version 7.0.

I don’t use MYOB, but your question appears to indicate confusion between an INVOICE and a STATEMENT.   In any accounting system that I know, an invoice represents a single transaction (therefore no "previous unpaid balance" data) and a STATEMENT summarizes previous transactions.  I’d be surprised if MYOB were any different.

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Yes, I’m agree w/ Mr. Paige. Tell us more about it. rgds, Rama – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there an easy way to get MYOB to include previous unpaid balances when it creates invoices?  I am using MYOB version 7.0. I don’t use MYOB, but your question appears to indicate confusion between an INVOICE and a STATEMENT.   In any accounting system that I know, an invoice represents a single transaction (therefore no "previous unpaid balance" data) and a STATEMENT summarizes previous transactions.  I’d be surprised if MYOB were any different.

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Question:

HI, I wonder if somebody could give me information about the way the FASB treats employee stock options in its rules. I have some material but that’s unfortunately a bit out of date. Most material I have is about the proposals made some years ago that stock options should be calculated as an additional cost for firms using them. Did those proposals actually go into practise? Another thing, and in my case the more important, is the appropriate valuation method used in valuing employee stock options. Is it the Black & Scholes formula that FASB recommends to use and if yes in what form?

it’s not really an additional "cost",  it’s how the additional shares are disclosed in calculating earnings per share.  I believe for most companies it’s still primary and full diluted using weighted number of shares.  One concern is the tax treatment – theres a big difference in "incentive" stock options and "non-qualified".  see http://www.aicpa.org

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HI, I wonder if somebody could give me information about the way the FASB treats employee stock options in its rules. I have some material but that’s unfortunately a bit out of date. Most material I have is about the proposals made some years ago that stock options should be calculated as an additional cost for firms using them. Did those proposals actually go into practise? Another thing, and in my case the more important, is the appropriate valuation method used in valuing employee stock options. Is it the Black & Scholes formula that FASB recommends to use and if yes in what form?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-02/01/092l-020198-id…

Response:

HI, I wonder if somebody could give me information about the way the FASB treats employee stock options in its rules. I have some material but that’s unfortunately a bit out of date. Most material I have is about the proposals made some years ago that stock options should be calculated as an additional cost for firms using them. Did those proposals actually go into practise? Another thing, and in my case the more important, is the appropriate valuation method used in valuing employee stock options. Is it the Black & Scholes formula that FASB recommends to use and if yes in what form? Regards,

Response:

HI, I wonder if somebody could give me information about the way the FASB treats employee stock options in its rules. I have some material but that’s unfortunately a bit out of date. Most material I have is about the proposals made some years ago that stock options should be calculated as an additional cost for firms using them. Did those proposals actually go into practise? Another thing, and in my case the more important, is the appropriate valuation method used in valuing employee stock options. Is it the Black & Scholes formula that FASB recommends to use and if yes in what form?

(Please bear in mind before you read my reply that I am UK, not US, qualified) The relevant standard is SFAS123.  This requires you to value *ALL* stock options granted to senior employees at the date of grant.  These are then charged to the income statement over the vesting period (ie the period over which the stock option is earned – usually 3 years in the UK).  I’m no expert on US reserve accounting but I believe the credit is to reserves. You’re right that it’s Black-Scholes we all have to learn.  I didn’t know there was more than one variety.  The variables I’ve used to check SFAS123 disclosure in the past were current price, exercise price, period to expiry and volatility.  I have a freeware Excel version that I found on the www if you wanted to see it. Black-Scholes valuation may give a value to an option even when granted at market value. There’s a happy ending to this story – a business that has previously reported using the old US standard, APB25, may continue to use it. Proforma disclosures under SFAS123 must be given as a supplement. — "If you want to look at my feet, say so," said the young man.  "But don’t be a God-damned sneak about it." (from "A Perfect Day for Bananafish")

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Question:

  Yeah, just imagine.   This is really not a good idea.  What happens when the computer "hiccups" and issues a wrong instruction, or the controller hits the wrong button.  Personally, I don’t think anything can replace the human in this industry.  As a passenger on a plane, I don’t think I’d feel to comfortable knowing that an FAA computer is telling the aircraft computer where to go.

I saw a piece on the Discover Channel about automation in airliners. My favorite piece of footage was the one of the Airbus (I think it was an airbus) trying to use to totally automated system. It was in a landing flare but just kept mushing along in a flare, on and on and finally going past the runway into a forest of sorts and exploding. Somehow taking humans out of the equation, however imperfect we are, seems like a recipe for disaster. We can tell computers what to do and sometimes they can do it but a computer has no judgement. What I don’t understand is why the flight crew on that a/c didn’t override the computer and land the damn plane rather than flying into the trees and checking out. Maybe one of you remembers it more clearly that I do and can give a reason stated on the show. But I don’t like the idea of taking people out of the loop…pete — Surely you"re *smart* enough to remove the spam control…

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Lets see.  The Y2K problem means that the computers think it is 1900.  I guess that means that when it turns over to 2000, the airplanes will disappear and the passengers had better have parachutes on.;-) Warren – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have heard rumors around that many airline and commercial flights will not be operating at 0000 hrs UTC 2000, due to the uncertainty that the changeover to the year 2000 will have on ATC and airborne computers.  At first I scoffed at the thought of it and figured that it was just another rumor started by "Year 2000" goofballs. However, for computers that use Cobol programming language, it is a real problem. After thinking about it, I wondered if anyone in these newsgroups had heard any such concern about airline and commercial pax carrying flights not operating during that time period.  Even if it is untrue, it is interesting to think about the possibilities for ATC Computer System foulups when the last two numbers go from "99" to "00".  Are all airborne navigation and flight control computers "Year 2000 resistant"? In spite of what everyone thinks that they know about the subject, how many of us really know in the true sense of the word? There must be a unique opinion for each individual out there about what will happen.  Anyone venture a guess?  If there are any long running-threads on the subject that I missed, I apologize. Robert Reed ASPECT One Transportation News and Human Factors http://www.wcinet.net/~aspect

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OTOH, in the case of an unclosed VFR flight plan, would they find you 99.9 years before you crashed?? (Just being silly, sorry…) — To e-mail me, replace "bird" with "mwrenn" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One example: IFR flight plans and route strips.  What would they do if the computer decided that you arrived at your clearance limit 99.9 years before your EFC time?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have heard rumors around that many airline and commercial flights will not be operating at 0000 hrs UTC 2000, due to the uncertainty that the changeover to the year 2000 will have on ATC and airborne computers.  At first I scoffed at the thought of it and figured that it was just another rumor started by "Year 2000" goofballs. However, for computers that use Cobol programming language, it is a real problem. After thinking about it, I wondered if anyone in these newsgroups had heard any such concern about airline and commercial pax carrying flights not operating during that time period.  Even if it is untrue, it is interesting to think about the possibilities for ATC Computer System foulups when the last two numbers go from "99" to "00".  Are all airborne navigation and flight control computers "Year 2000 resistant"? In spite of what everyone thinks that they know about the subject, how many of us really know in the true sense of the word? There must be a unique opinion for each individual out there about what will happen.  Anyone venture a guess?  If there are any long running-threads on the subject that I missed, I apologize. Robert Reed

Nope, tha’s true.  The computer should, and will mistake you for flying -99 years.  Althoug I can’t see why it would care.  I wouldn’t take any chances. Japan will be one of the first into the millenium, so we’ll see what happens over there.  But the FAA shouldn’t be trying to fix the computers they have, they should buy friggin’ NEW ones!  FACT: The FAA is THE largest user of Vacuum tube computers in the world! (Solar system, galaxy, universe, whatever you want to call it).  To lighten the load on the controller, it would be kewl for a computer to recommend what to tell the aircraft to do!  Or have it speak to the pilot with pre-recorded phrases!  Just imagine.

Response:

over there.  But the FAA shouldn’t be trying to fix the computers they have, they should buy friggin’ NEW ones!  FACT: The FAA is THE largest user of Vacuum tube computers in the world! (Solar system, galaxy, universe, whatever you want to call it).

  Unfortunately, your statement about the FAA being the largest user of vacuum tubes is correct.  However, the plan is for new computers very soon.  We at Albuquerque Center are slated to have the new equipment installed by the end of the year.  We’ll probably start to receive training on it at year’s end or early next year. controller, it would be kewl for a computer to recommend what to tell the aircraft to do!  Or have it speak to the pilot with pre-recorded phrases!  Just imagine.

  Yeah, just imagine.   This is really not a good idea.  What happens when the computer "hiccups" and issues a wrong instruction, or the controller hits the wrong button.  Personally, I don’t think anything can replace the human in this industry.  As a passenger on a plane, I don’t think I’d feel to comfortable knowing that an FAA computer is telling the aircraft computer where to go.  Brian  ZAB

Response:

(snip) SPECULATION: – A "smart" airplane might even have a date clock, and switch databases itself.

Even the airplanes I know of with "date clocks" don’t switch the databases themselves, or change inflight.  These aircraft require an initial position to be entered in order to align the Inertial Reference System.  If you change the database, the aircraft must once again be told where it is, relative to this database.  Unfortunately I know from experience that if you pushback, notice that the new database if required and switch to it, you will have to wait 10 minutes while the IRS re-aligns. I’m describing this only to state that changing databases is usually a crew function, not something automatically accomplished, and not accomplished inflight.  I would be interested in hearing cases where that is not true. Well, if the aircraft has databases 991230 and 000127 available, and the year 2000 comes around, suddenly there is no database with a date greater than or equal to 000101.  Oops, no database for the FMS to navigate by.

The FMS (again, the ones I am familar with) switch _between_ databases. You cannot "deselect" a database.  You have either one or the other, but there are no situations where you can have neither. What I speculate above about aircraft — and it’s just that, speculation — may well be just as reasonable for ATC, further adding to the complexity of the problem. What is some parties switch database OK but others don’t? There is a risk that aircraft and controllers may not be refering to the same airspace databases.

I don’t think this would be a huge problem.  How far do the airports really move in 30 days?  It sounds more like a technicality to have an out of date database than the kind of crisis that would cause airlines not to fly on 1/1/2000. I’m sure there may be significant problems associated with the year 2000, but I doubt FMS databases will be one of the major problems. –Mark Rogers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To minimize the risk, I would suggest that airspace administrators keep airspace changes to the bare minimum around the turn of the millenium. Paulo Santos

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HARD FACTS: – ATC computers know about the airspace database. – Aircraft FMS computers do too. – It is important that databases be in sync, so that ATC instructions  are pilot actions match. – When a database changes, everyone changes at the same time.  Even  in flight, if needed. – The database changes every 28 days. – Database changes are scheduled for 30-Dec-1999 and 27-Jan-2000 at 0901Z. FACTS I HAVE OBSERVED ON SOME AIRCRAFT: – I don’t know about ATC, but aircraft FMSs typically have two databases  available to load into the system: the current one, and either the one that  just expired or the next one. – At 0901Z on the change date, pilots are supposed to switch the database.

All correct except one minor point.  The aircraft do not change in flight.  If they have departed prior to 0901Z, they continue on the old database until landing. Ron

Response:

I think everybody is missing a point.  This would be an easy thing to test. Computers are exceedingly gullible, tell one it is 1/1/00 and see what happens.  It may create no problems, and if it does you then address them.  Some of the hype is really silly. Mr. Bernoulli will still be hard at work regardless of the date, so airplanes will not fall out of the sky. And, a personal gripe, the Y2K situation is not a "bug".  It was created intentionally as a result of reasonable decisions made "at the time".  The old 172 I used to have did not have a machmeter installed, but I did not consider that a flaw in the design! Bob McKellar —     The List of Preserved US Military Aircraft     http://www.coastcomp.com/av/pres/presusac.htm     The Flightline     http://www.coastcomp.com/av/fltline2/fltline2.htm

Response:

  As others pointed out,  the problem is not Cobol, rather it is old programs that used the 2 digit year to save storage, or were written much later by programmers who still used the 2 digit year because that’s the way they were taught (I’ve seen examples of this in the last few years).

No, mostly programmers didn’t still use 2 digit years because "that’s the way they were taught", they used 2 digit years because the huge mound of data they were working on had two digit years and there was no way they could change that without massive redesign of the database, thousands of man hours of work, and millions of dollars of development and testing of every program that touches that database.  I’ve been in organizations where we weren’t even sure how many programs touched particular databases because other offices within the organization had written their own programs to access those databases, and over the years those programs had become essential to the business operation. Breaking other people’s programs was not an option. That’s what we refer to as "legacy" code or databases, and "backwards compatibility". — "A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."      - Calvin discovers Usenet

Response:

I think everybody is missing a point.  This would be an easy thing to test.

No it isn’t.  You can’t start setting the dates on all the active computer systems – you would have to reproduce the entire network of computers used in the ATC system (or at least a few of each type), and test it with real and realistic data.  That includes planes that take off in 1999 and land in 2000, etc.  The design of reasonable and complete test cases is a BIG BUSINESS. really silly. Mr. Bernoulli will still be hard at work regardless of the date, so airplanes will not fall out of the sky.

Until they crash into each other, or run out of gas in the clouds because the ATC system is unable to give them a landing clearance or lost their IFR clearance, or they run into terrain because the navaids failed or the radar scope stops warning about descents below MVA. Read up about that crash in Guam.  One of the contributing factors (not the cause, because any ifr pilot should be able fly a non-precision approach without radar help) was that a bug in the ATC software prevented it from issuing an automatic warning that the plane was below MVA. — "A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."      - Calvin discovers Usenet

Response:

In the back of my memory, IBM sold that division (Federal Systems Division (FSD)) many years ago to some other company.

About 4 years ago (IIRC). FSD was sold to Loral. Then Loral was sold to Lockheed Martin, so it has actually changed hands twice. — Dylan Smith  1810 Space Park Drive, Houston, TX 77573 Standard disclaimer applies.

Response:

: Mainframe…the replacements for the IBM9020e’s in the five high traffic : facilities simply use the previous code to a great extent…of course no : one at IBM is familiar with this code anymore…I heard they refused to : bid a maintainence contract because they couldn’t find anyone that could : work the code.   In the back of my memory, IBM sold that division (Federal Systems Division (FSD)) many years ago to some other company. So, having sold the employees as well, it’s very understandable if they (IBM) has no one who is "up to speed" on that code. Regards, Dennis M. Maurer

Response:

Can anyone give me an example of where or when ATC computers would make a year reference, let alone a date reference (that would affect performance)? I just can’t imagine why any code that is handling real-time aircraft information would care what year it is… Marc S.

OK.  From today’s New York Times, <http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/011398millennium.html           Already, FAA teams have found, deep in the computer code, a monthly command           that enables a computer to switch from one cooling pump to another; if it is not           fixed, experts say, that routine could stop running, allowing the computers to           overheat and fail if the pump breaks down. In fact, experts say, there could be           many such land mines — buried in millions of lines of computer code — that could           cause failures for days, weeks or months after the new year. Be afraid.  Be very afraid.

Response:

Warning.  If you do what B&J suggest below, you may create some serious immediate problems on your PC, even worse on your big stuff.  Many of our present OSs (WIN95 and NT), have a habit of changing some data in systems files that is date sensitive.  And heaven help you if you open and close a data file.  After testing your machine with a 00 year, when you reset the date to 98/01/13 and try to reboot or reopen the file, you may have problems.  I would only recommend testing your systems if you do a complete backup just prior to the test and VALIDATE the integrity of the backup.  Be able to boot from a floppy that will let you restore from your backup without using on board software.  See the Y2K news group for some info from those a lot smarter than me. It’s at             <comp.software.year-2000 -vic – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think everybody is missing a point.  This would be an easy thing to test. Computers are exceedingly gullible, tell one it is 1/1/00 and see what happens.  It may create no problems, and if it does you then address them.

Response:

ASSUMPTION (needed to illustrate the year 2000 problem): – Let’s assume that database dates are stored in the form yymmdd RISK SCENARIO: A reasonable algorithm for database selection would be: "select the database with the highest date that is less than or equal to today’s date".

A reasonable algorithm would also assume that if there is no "next" database to continue using the one currently in use.  As well, databases probably use a sequential serial number of some sort.   –G —   Gordon Dewis             |  WWW Virtual Library Geography Section is now at:   BA Hons Geography        |    http://www.icomos.org/WWW_VL_Geography.html   Carleton University      |

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] Absolutely right Paul. I believe that the Y2K problem has 3 primary sources. One, of course, is the data storage space constraints in the early days of computing, that are manifested regardless of which computer language was used prior to maybe the mid 1970’s. Before that, most computers could not afford the storage space to retain unnecessary data. And the millenia was 25 or more years away, so it seemed that the 19xx was universally not needed. A second reason, is that newer derivative systems would have cost more, if the problem was corrected. Thus, things like the air traffic control systems carried over the problem to avoid or defer the cost of the fix, even when they upgraded to new computers. It is a problem of legacy. The final reason is, of course, lack of planning or foresight. As late as the 90’s, as you’ve indicated, people still sometimes don’t understand, even when they are in the field and should. Even today, people will sometimes create spreadsheets that do not account for the century. Just to correct the original poster a bit more. The problem is more likely to be manifested in the early Fortran programs than Cobol. The reason is that in the late 50’s thru the late 60’s, while Cobol was still reluctantly gaining favor, Fortran was "the" language of choice. Prior to the computer science degree programs, engineers and math majors constituted the majority of programmers, and they understood and liked Fortran better that Cobol, even when called upon to do an accounting program, for example. In about 1970, I had to make a change to a Cobol program, that had been written by a recent Fortran convert. You could barely tell it was Cobol. The instructions looked as much like Fortran, as the programmer was able to achieve. So Fortran was more widely used in the early days, at the very same time that data storage dictated stripping off the century digits. By the late 60’s and the 70’s, as Cobol became more prevalent, the only thing standing in the way of correcting the problem was the legacy factor and lack of foresight. Chuck

Well, rather than spend millions or billions of dollars, why doon’t we just start with year 0000 after 1999?  My driver’s license has an expiration date of 00 on it.  So it’s all set. I suppose some programs being used presently already have software to handle Y2K problem.  It shouldn’t be too hard to bypass the code that fixes the date.  Who needs all those extra digits anyway? — Al

Response:

Robert Reed wrote : – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have heard rumors around that many airline and commercial flights will not be operating at 0000 hrs UTC 2000, due to the uncertainty that the changeover to the year 2000 will have on ATC and airborne computers.  At first I scoffed at the thought of it and figured that it was just another rumor started by "Year 2000" goofballs. However, for computers that use Cobol programming language, it is a real problem. After thinking about it, I wondered if anyone in these newsgroups had heard any such concern about airline and commercial pax carrying flights not operating during that time period.  Even if it is untrue, it is interesting to think about the possibilities for ATC Computer System foulups when the last two numbers go from "99" to "00".  Are all airborne navigation and flight control computers "Year 2000 resistant"? In spite of what everyone thinks that they know about the subject, how many of us really know in the true sense of the word? There must be a unique opinion for each individual out there about what will happen.  Anyone venture a guess?  If there are any long running-threads on the subject that I missed, I apologize.

   As others pointed out,  the problem is not Cobol, rather it is old programs that used the 2 digit year to save storage, or were written much later by programmers who still used the 2 digit year because that’s the way they were taught (I’ve seen examples of this in the last few years).    My concern about the FAA is that they are still running large (size, not capacity) mainframes based on the old IBM/360 which was originally released in the mid-60s.  A lot of the application code and operating system software is nearly as old.  If the FAA does not go through every line of that code (assuming they still have the source code),  there will be trouble in 2000.      Just my $.02, John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Response:

What about the celestial nav stuff?  If the computer thought it was 1900 instead of 2000, couldn’t that affect where the computer thought it was? Warren – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone give me an example of where or when ATC computers would make a year reference, let alone a date reference (that would affect performance)? I just can’t imagine why any code that is handling real-time aircraft information would care what year it is… One example: IFR flight plans and route strips.  What would they do if the computer decided that you arrived at your clearance limit 99.9 years before your EFC time? I can’t think of any problems that would last longer than the duration of a flight plan or a flight, but maybe somebody more familiar with ATC would? — "A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."      - Calvin discovers Usenet

Response:

Can anyone give me an example of where or when ATC computers would make a year reference, let alone a date reference (that would affect performance)? I just can’t imagine why any code that is handling real-time aircraft information would care what year it is…

My fertile imagination is going to help you I am going to present some facts and introduce a bit of speculation. HARD FACTS: – ATC computers know about the airspace database. – Aircraft FMS computers do too. – It is important that databases be in sync, so that ATC instructions   are pilot actions match. – When a database changes, everyone changes at the same time.  Even   in flight, if needed. – The database changes every 28 days. – Database changes are scheduled for 30-Dec-1999 and 27-Jan-2000 at 0901Z. FACTS I HAVE OBSERVED ON SOME AIRCRAFT: – I don’t know about ATC, but aircraft FMSs typically have two databases   available to load into the system: the current one, and either the one that   just expired or the next one. – At 0901Z on the change date, pilots are supposed to switch the database. SPECULATION: – A "smart" airplane might even have a date clock, and switch databases itself. ASSUMPTION (needed to illustrate the year 2000 problem): – Let’s assume that database dates are stored in the form yymmdd RISK SCENARIO: A reasonable algorithm for database selection would be: "select the database with the highest date that is less than or equal to today’s date". Well, if the aircraft has databases 991230 and 000127 available, and the year 2000 comes around, suddenly there is no database with a date greater than or equal to 000101.  Oops, no database for the FMS to navigate by. What I speculate above about aircraft — and it’s just that, speculation — may well be just as reasonable for ATC, further adding to the complexity of the problem. What is some parties switch database OK but others don’t? There is a risk that aircraft and controllers may not be refering to the same airspace databases. To minimize the risk, I would suggest that airspace administrators keep airspace changes to the bare minimum around the turn of the millenium. Paulo Santos

Response:

I have heard rumors around that many airline and commercial flights will not be operating at 0000 hrs UTC 2000, due to the uncertainty that the changeover to the year 2000 will have on ATC and airborne computers.  At first I scoffed at the thought of it and figured that it was just another rumor started by "Year 2000" goofballs. However, for computers that use Cobol programming language, it is a real problem. After thinking about it, I wondered if anyone in these newsgroups had heard any such concern about airline and commercial pax carrying flights not operating during that time period.  Even if it is untrue, it is interesting to think about the possibilities for ATC Computer System foulups when the last two numbers go from "99" to "00".  Are all airborne navigation and flight control computers "Year 2000 resistant"? In spite of what everyone thinks that they know about the subject, how many of us really know in the true sense of the word? There must be a unique opinion for each individual out there about what will happen.  Anyone venture a guess?  If there are any long running-threads on the subject that I missed, I apologize. Robert Reed ASPECT One Transportation News and Human Factors http://www.wcinet.net/~aspect

Response:

another rumor started by "Year 2000" goofballs. However, for computers that use Cobol programming language, it is a real problem.

This is a HUGE misconception that the Y2K problem has anything to do with Cobol.  It has to do with data storage, specifically the reliance upon storing dates as MMDDYY (or DDMMYY in more logical countries like Canada).  Sure, back when storage space was at such an incredible premium that every byte counted like gold, most programs were written in Cobol, but it’s not Cobol’s fault.  I was working on a system in 1985 that had been started in the 1960s in FORTRAN and it certainly had that problem.  I’ve also seen systems written in the 90s in semi-modern languages like xBase that had the problem, believe it or not. I narrowly convinced my manager in 1994 to not write a system with a glaring Y2K problem! — "A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."      - Calvin discovers Usenet

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – another rumor started by "Year 2000" goofballs. However, for computers that use Cobol programming language, it is a real problem. This is a HUGE misconception that the Y2K problem has anything to do with Cobol.  It has to do with data storage, specifically the reliance upon storing dates as MMDDYY (or DDMMYY in more logical countries like Canada).  Sure, back when storage space was at such an incredible premium that every byte counted like gold, most programs were written in Cobol, but it’s not Cobol’s fault.  I was working on a system in 1985 that had been started in the 1960s in FORTRAN and it certainly had that problem.  I’ve also seen systems written in the 90s in semi-modern languages like xBase that had the problem, believe it or not. I narrowly convinced my manager in 1994 to not write a system with a glaring Y2K problem! — "A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."      - Calvin discovers Usenet

Absolutely right Paul. I believe that the Y2K problem has 3 primary sources. One, of course, is the data storage space constraints in the early days of computing, that are manifested regardless of which computer language was used prior to maybe the mid 1970’s. Before that, most computers could not afford the storage space to retain unnecessary data. And the millenia was 25 or more years away, so it seemed that the 19xx was universally not needed. A second reason, is that newer derivative systems would have cost more, if the problem was corrected. Thus, things like the air traffic control systems carried over the problem to avoid or defer the cost of the fix, even when they upgraded to new computers. It is a problem of legacy. The final reason is, of course, lack of planning or foresight. As late as the 90’s, as you’ve indicated, people still sometimes don’t understand, even when they are in the field and should. Even today, people will sometimes create spreadsheets that do not account for the century. Just to correct the original poster a bit more. The problem is more likely to be manifested in the early Fortran programs than Cobol. The reason is that in the late 50’s thru the late 60’s, while Cobol was still reluctantly gaining favor, Fortran was "the" language of choice. Prior to the computer science degree programs, engineers and math majors constituted the majority of programmers, and they understood and liked Fortran better that Cobol, even when called upon to do an accounting program, for example. In about 1970, I had to make a change to a Cobol program, that had been written by a recent Fortran convert. You could barely tell it was Cobol. The instructions looked as much like Fortran, as the programmer was able to achieve. So Fortran was more widely used in the early days, at the very same time that data storage dictated stripping off the century digits. By the late 60’s and the 70’s, as Cobol became more prevalent, the only thing standing in the way of correcting the problem was the legacy factor and lack of foresight. Chuck

Response:

Can anyone give me an example of where or when ATC computers would make a year reference, let alone a date reference (that would affect performance)? I just can’t imagine why any code that is handling real-time aircraft information would care what year it is… Marc S.

Response:

Can anyone give me an example of where or when ATC computers would make a year reference, let alone a date reference (that would affect performance)? I just can’t imagine why any code that is handling real-time aircraft information would care what year it is…

One example: IFR flight plans and route strips.  What would they do if the computer decided that you arrived at your clearance limit 99.9 years before your EFC time? I can’t think of any problems that would last longer than the duration of a flight plan or a flight, but maybe somebody more familiar with ATC would? — "A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day."      - Calvin discovers Usenet

Response:

I have heard rumors around that many airline and commercial flights will not be operating at 0000 hrs UTC 2000, due to the uncertainty that the changeover to the year 2000 will have on ATC and airborne computers.  At first I scoffed at the thought of it and figured that it was just another rumor started by "Year 2000" goofballs. However, for computers that use Cobol programming language, it is a real problem.

Since I was one of the "programmers" back in 1966, I was directly involved. The problem was cost.  The cost of storage: short-term (core – now RAM), medium and long-term. My first commercial programs had to run in 4K – that is 4,096 bytes on the main-frame.  We designed and wrote entire systems – not just single programs – to run on these machines.  The first programs I saw (not wrote), used ONE digit for year – because nobody had been writing time-dependent programs in the fifties!  Whenever we would point out that the year 2000 would be a disaster, we were told to concentrate on the technical stuff since the extra two digits cost money and money was a business problem – not ours.  This continued right throughout the 1980’s.  In the 1990’s, costs came down enough that SOME systems used 4 digits for year. 1) It is not a COBOL problem.  It is an original design problem in how the dates were stored. 2) Be very careful when someone says they are year 2000 "compliant".   What does "compliant" really mean?  Sometimes it means the system uses 2 digit years but tries to solve the problem in the programs by assuming something – such as the year 00 is the year 2000, but the year 10 is 1910.   Also, on old systems, what does "compliant" mean?  Every single line of code and every single storage location must have been checked and tested. Was it?  This is very doubtful because the same type of business mind set the budgets for determining compliance.  How do you test if everything works in the year 2000 and 2001?  It is very expensive.   And, finally, really old systems may not have source code.  These systems must be completely redone – not just reprogrammed, but redesigned – from scratch. So, I hope somebody is being careful.   Dan

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Question:

I need some help in an assignment question. If OE = Owners Equity at the beginning of the period     K = Contributions by owners during the period     D = Drawings by owners during the period     R = Revenues during the period     E = Expenses during the period     A = Assets atthe end of the period     L = Liabilities at the end of the period Based on the accounting equations ( A=L + OE or A – L=OE), then which of the following relationships are correct? a)  A + R            = OE + K – D + L – E b)  E                   = L + OE + K – D – A + R c)  L + OE + K   = A – R + E + D d) OE                  = A + L – R + E – K + D e)  A + E             = OE + L + K – D + R One, several or all may be correct. Can anyone help shed some light on this?? Irene

Response:

Simple: Assign a value to each variable.  If the equation is equal, then that is the correct equation.  I haven’t tried each of them, but there may be more than one answer. : I need some help in an assignment question. : : If OE = Owners Equity at the beginning of the period :     K = Contributions by owners during the period :     D = Drawings by owners during the period :     R = Revenues during the period :     E = Expenses during the period :     A = Assets atthe end of the period :     L = Liabilities at the end of the period : : Based on the accounting equations ( A=L + OE or A – L=OE), then which of the : following relationships are correct? : : a)  A + R            = OE + K – D + L – E : b)  E                   = L + OE + K – D – A + R : c)  L + OE + K   = A – R + E + D : d) OE                  = A + L – R + E – K + D : e)  A + E             = OE + L + K – D + R : : One, several or all may be correct. : Can anyone help shed some light on this?? : : Irene : : : :

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Question:

I’m wondering if the symptoms of LD can mimic those of ALS (Lou Gerhigs disease)?? Also could the diagnostic tests turn out the same, specificly an EMG test ?? Can some of the symptoms of LD be: loss  of balance, muscle weakness, ataxia, poor gait,  poor balance, muscle stiffness, muscle spasms, cramping, eventual paralysis, muscle atrophy, nerve damage, exaggerateed emotions, swallowing problems, speach problems, excessive salivation??? Are there any known cases of LD being initially being misdiagnosed as ALS?? Sincerely, Dennis http://members.aol.com/midennis/index.htm

Response:

I’m wondering if the symptoms of LD can mimic those of ALS (Lou Gerhigs

disease)?? Also could the diagnostic tests turn out the same, specificly an EMG test ?? Can some of the symptoms of LD be: loss  of balance, muscle weakness,

ataxia, poor gait,  poor balance, muscle stiffness, muscle spasms, cramping, eventual paralysis, muscle atrophy, nerve damage, exaggerateed emotions, swallowing problems, speach problems, excessive salivation??? Are there any known cases of LD being initially being misdiagnosed as ALS?? Sincerely, Dennis http://members.aol.com/midennis/index.htm

Dennis – When I read your post my heart skipped a beat and I got a very sick feeling in my stomach. Just about 1 month before I was finally started on IV antibotics,  this is what  was happening to me of the above that you listed: loss  of balance, muscle weakness, ataxia, poor gait, muscle stiffness, muscle atrophy, nerve damage, exaggerateed emotions, (could still be true) speech problems, just to name of few! I was even walking with a cane to try to keep from falling over. Sometimes the cane helped me catch myself – if I was falling forward, and sometimes not – if I found myself falling backwards. I broke my foot and tore ligaments due to one of those episodes. I wanted to have a T-Shirt made up saying "I’m NOT drunk, I have Lyme Disease!" (I don’t even drink!)  It was very embarassing (for me & I’m sure others) to be out in public in that condition. It all started with short-term memory loss for me and exhaustion. Most people do not know those are warning signs of LD. Since I also fell in the catergory of those who did not get a bull-eyes rash – only 45-50% do actually, I went undiagnosed for a long time, like many of us do. I’m late stage now, or 3rd stage, there are no more stages! Now it has gotten into my brain, shows up on a MRI as spots and has attacked my long term memory. It has taken parts of my past away from me. Sometimes now my husband or son talks about an events in our lives and I have no idea what they are talking about. He just told me that we were in the section of France where Diana was killed. He said we went right through that tunnel. I have no memory of that at all, and that was only in 1990. I mean I know we were in France but no details. It has also taken away my abililty to work with numbers. Sometimes I can’t count money. My brain can no longer "hear" numbers. I can not "catch" a phone number on an answering machine or if someone tries to give me a phone number. I had to have caller ID put on all my phones. I can "see" them, I just can’t "hear" them. I know it sounds strange. I can no longer do any accounting. I can’t even figure out my checkbook. I "used" to be a wiz with numbers! Please, please,  post this to our Lyme Support group. I’m new online and certainly do not know all there is about LD, I’m over there learning too. They may know about this or maybe this is something that could be really important. Our group is listed below: Regards! Marleen (MO) South Jersey Lyme Warrior: Newgroup: sci.med.diseases.lyme "Never doubt that a small group of commited citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." — Margaret Meade

Response:

Question:

Also, there are quite a few airplanes around that have rudder pedals, but also a rudder/aileron interconnect.  The Tri-Pacer comes to mind.

I didn’t know that.  How were they connected?  Was it a rigid connection, or something like a bungee? – Dave

Response:

http://www.dsg.cs.tcd.ie/~sloubtin/IWA.html If you have web access, then visit this site .  If you don’t have web access, drop me a email and I’ll try to get you the info in some other manner.  Go for your dream!  

or send me an e-mail,  I’ll send you a copy of its contents;  I made this page with as little html gadgets as possible (as a self imposed rule,  I made it readable with lynx),  i.e.,  mostly text, straight forward to e-mail (or print out and pin on the physical bulletin board of your local fbo/aeroclub! hint! hint! hint! spent last night putting it up to date (well,  still a wee bit here and there,  and some rough edges to be polished,  but better than it was yesterday ; i.e., added a few things about flying in UK (mostly names/addresses of contacts there),  e.g.,  found out that there are two places in UK with hand-controlled equipped C172 where instruction is provided; –Sylvain — %% Distributed Systems Group,           (O’Reilly Institute,  room F.35) %% Department of Computer Science,               phone: (+353-88) 527790 %% Trinity College, Dublin 2,  -Ireland-           fax: (+353-1) 6772204

Response:

Also, there are quite a few airplanes around that have rudder pedals, but also a rudder/aileron interconnect.  The Tri-Pacer comes to mind. I didn’t know that.  How were they connected?  Was it a rigid connection, or something like a bungee?

Don’t know about the TriPacer, but the Navion uses springs.  It’s fairly easy to override them but if you take your hands off the wheel you can move the wheel with the rudder pedals (and vice versa).  If you don’t need to make real sharp turns, you can taxi using the wheels rather than the rudders (though it takes a little practice). -Ron

Response:

The Ercoupe, with its distinctive twin-tail design, was originally provided with "coordinated controls", ie. the rudder was connected to the yoke and yaw correction was automatic – NO RUDDER PEDALS. The steerable nose wheel was connected directly to the yoke – you taxied exactly like you drive your car. This, and limited elevator travel, contributed to the result that the ‘Coupe is "characteristicly incapable of spinning"! You can try, but the plane will fly out of an incipient spin. An entirely new catagory of pilot license was created for the thousands of new pilots who had never seen a rudder pedal.

Is there still a separate category of license?  In which countries? I assume this is similar to the "centerline thrust only" restriction you get if you take the multiengine checkride in a Skymaster. – Dave

Response:

Also, there are quite a few airplanes around that have rudder pedals, but also a rudder/aileron interconnect.  The Tri-Pacer comes to mind.

The Ted Smith/Piper Aerostar has a spring interconnect also.  In level flight turns and shallow climbs and descents you can leave your feet on the floor and the airplane will stay coordinated (which I do). Jim Hann ATP/MEL CFIAIME

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An entirely new catagory of pilot license was created for the thousands of new pilots who had never seen a rudder pedal. Is there still a separate category of license?  In which countries?

I plain don’t know, but I don’t think so. This was in the USA. Perhaps some American pundit can enlighten us all?? Michael. President, The Gray Research Group                  |   Compuserve: 70631,155 Project Manager, Blue Sky Community Networks        |  Voice/Fax 204.943.9000 —– No good deed will go unpunished. ——- Standard Disclaimers Apply —

Response:

An entirely new catagory of pilot license was created for the thousands of new pilots who had never seen a rudder pedal. Is there still a separate category of license?  In which countries? I plain don’t know, but I don’t think so. This was in the USA. Perhaps some American pundit can enlighten us all?? Michael.

I don’t know the answer to the question but I do know that there is a group of pilots who are paralyzed below the waist who fly Ercoupes. Another bit of information. I understand that when they were training pilots for the Boeing 747 (prior to it’s introduction to service) they had them practice landing at a crab angle in Ercoupes. Thereby getting them used to the practice of "crab landing" 747’s. Joe Reed

Response:

An entirely new catagory of pilot license was created for the thousands of new pilots who had never seen a rudder pedal. Is there still a separate category of license?  In which countries?

There were a few limited pilots’ licenses issued in the United States during the 40s. This class of license no longer exists. Source: _The Illustrated Buyer’s Guide to Used Airplanes_, Clarke.                     | When I hear TVA get sanctimonious about the loss                     | of farmland, it makes me see red. It’s like having George Patterson –  | a tubbo get on your case about gaining weight                     | while he’s munching a jelly doughnut.                     |                               Sam Venable

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Ercoupe, with its distinctive twin-tail design, was originally provided with "coordinated controls", ie. the rudder was connected to the yoke and yaw correction was automatic – NO RUDDER PEDALS. The steerable nose wheel was connected directly to the yoke – you taxied exactly like you drive your car. This, and limited elevator travel, contributed to the result that the ‘Coupe is "characteristicly incapable of spinning"! You can try, but the plane will fly out of an incipient spin. An entirely new catagory of pilot license was created for the thousands of new pilots who had never seen a rudder pedal. Is there still a separate category of license?  In which countries? I assume this is similar to the "centerline thrust only" restriction you get if you take the multiengine checkride in a Skymaster. – Dave

Actually, what happened was somebody in the FAA got concerned because you can’t teach slips with no rudder pedals.  What they did was disallow the Ercoupe for primary training.  It did wonders for C-120 sales.  All the Beechcraft dealers kept a C-120 for flight training.  They would teach you to fly if you bought a Bonanza!  I don’t think it ever got to the point where someone had a restriction on their license.  They were just worried about not being able to teach forward slips! Interestingly, times change.  A couple years ago I heard a rumor that someone in the FAA was trying to get the forward slip defined as an aerobatic maneuver and ruled illegal!  If he had succeeded you would never be able to land a taildragger in a crosswind without breaking FAR’s! John

Response:

Another bit of information. I understand that when they were training pilots for the Boeing 747 (prior to it’s introduction to service) they had them practice landing at a crab angle in Ercoupes. Thereby getting them used to the practice of "crab landing" 747’s.

Actually, I believe it was the 707. Michael. President, The Gray Research Group                  |   Compuserve: 70631,155 Project Manager, Blue Sky Community Networks        |  Voice/Fax 204.943.9000 —– No good deed will go unpunished. ——- Standard Disclaimers Apply —

Response:

A couple years ago I heard a rumor that someone in the FAA was trying to get the forward slip defined as an aerobatic maneuver and ruled illegal! If he had succeeded you would never be able to land a taildragger in a crosswind without breaking FAR’s!

I have been told it is illegal to sideslip an aircraft in france. If the ball leaves the center at any time during a flight test in france, you fail. Perhaps the FAA is trying to "harmonize" internationally again? Makes about as much sense as us adopting the stupid new METAR and TAF format.  I know how important tourism is, we want the european pilots to feel really comfy and at home over here, I guess, but our METAR and TAF are totally different than the european ones anyways.  All the units are metric over there, we use knots and miles and feet and inches of mercury. The conversion was completely pointless, since at the end of it all, we’re still different. Oh, well.  I suppose this sort of pointless change gives bureaucrats [who are otherwise unemployable] jobs. — #include <std.disclaimer

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I have been told it is illegal to sideslip an aircraft in france. If the ball leaves the center at any time during a flight test in france, you fail.

I remember a check ride in Sisteron years ago (gliders);  I made a nice short landing with a neat and long sideslip (just like I was taught in Switzerland where it is part of the checkride to demonstrate a nice long sideslip of at least 30sec if I remember);  the guy in the back told me it was neat and signed me off,  but  not to do it ever again as it was considered an aerobatic manoever… (that’s the nice thing about flying in places like Sisteron where the instructors are used to see people with a wide range of different experiences;  and they do not frown upon more exotic techniques — %% Distributed Systems Group,           (O’Reilly Institute,  room F.35) %% Department of Computer Science,               phone: (+353-88) 527790 %% Trinity College, Dublin 2,  -Ireland-           fax: (+353-1) 6772204

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Makes about as much sense as us adopting the stupid new METAR and TAF format.  I know how important tourism is, we want the european pilots to feel really comfy and at home over here, I guess, but our METAR and TAF are totally different than the european ones anyways.  All the units are metric over there, we use knots and miles and feet and inches of mercury.

Well, think of it this way.  We can easily change to an all metric operation, just require every aircraft owner to purchase a new altimeter, airspeed, and vertical speed indicator.  That way the airplane will be metric also (of course that means new training manuals, POHs…….) Jim Hann ATP/MEL CFIAIME

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FWIW, In the book "Stick and Rudder", Langewiesche makes vague references to aircraft that do not have rudder pedals — the rudder is automatically controlled by the yoke as to always maintain coordinated flight (And no, I’m not referring to MS flightsim aircraft I myself have never heard of such an aircraft (it would sure make crosswind landings interesting, though!)

I’m sure you’ve heard of the Ercoupe (sometimes spelled Aircoupe).  A small two place, low wing plane with twin rudders.  Most of these have no rudder pedals.  They have only one pedal on the floor, which is the brake.  However, some Ercoupes have been converted to "conventional" rudder pedal layout. Also, there are quite a few airplanes around that have rudder pedals, but also a rudder/aileron interconnect.  The Tri-Pacer comes to mind. Joe Norris Central Wisconsin, USA

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I am a disabled person based in the UK who would dearly like to learn to fly.

I’m not in the UK, and I don’t know what sort of regulatory headaches you’d get from the CAA. You’d have to check with someone more familiar with CAA regulations. I have very limited use of my feet which as I understand it, in the normal course of events, would make it difficult for me to control the rudder of any aircraft using rudder pedals.  I am able to drive a car with hand controls.  In the light of these facts I have three questions: a.  Is is possible to control the rudder of a plane without the use of pedals?

Yes. There is a Cessna 172 based at the same field I am that is owned and flown by a paraplegic gentleman. I was walking across the ramp one day when he taxiied in. The only assistance he required was pushing the plane back into its tiedown spot. His airplane is equipped with a joystick that allows control of the throttle with a forward-backward motion and the rudders with a left-right motion. He said it was a bit less convenient to turn and play with the radios at the same time than if he had use of his legs, but in practice he said it wasn’t a big deal. b.  If the answer to question a. is in the affirmative.  Are there any flight schools in the UK that can teach me on such an aircraft? c.  Finally, a more general question.  Is there any kind of association of for disabled pilots in the UK.

Wish I could help on these. Hopefully you’ll get an answer from someone more local to you. Sorry if these questions seem a little basic or the answers to them self-evident to some people but it has always been a dream of mine to learn to fly and I want to make all possible enquires before giving up that dream and going back to basket weaving!

Don’t give up. It’s physically possible and practical. — Reece R. Pollack CP-ASMEL-IA — N1707H Piper Arrow III (based GAI)

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As an FYI tidbit, I believe the designer of the Ercoupe and the designer of the Piper Cherokee (Fred Wyck?) are one & the same… I’m sure someone out there can verify my assumptions & correct my spelling… Pat

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Hi, I am taught and still practice to apply right rudder with full power end some left rudder while gliding. This is necessary in order to keep coordinated in a single engine ACFT. How is this coordination achieved in a 2 control ACFT (with 1 engine and without rudder pedals)? Please e-mail a copy of your post. At my site the news has a very short retention period. Jacob — J. J. A. Koot          Stichting Academisch Rekencentrum Amsterdam Tel: +31 20 5923019    Postbus 94613, 1090 GP, Amsterdam, Netherlands

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Wyatt, The airplane you refer to is called an Ercoupe.  It is a 2 place side by side low wing of metal construction.  I *believe* it came with an 85 hp. continental.  The main gear are castering and there is one pull handle for the brakes.  Never flown one, but am told that once you get used to landing it "sideways" it is a lot of fun. It might be a great option for a wheelchair bound pilot. Ann Sweeney Champ 4364E Miss Bigfeet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FWIW, In the book "Stick and Rudder", Langewiesche makes vague references to aircraft that do not have rudder pedals — the rudder is automatically controlled by the yoke as to always maintain coordinated flight (And no, I’m not referring to MS flightsim aircraft I myself have never heard of such an aircraft (it would sure make crosswind landings interesting, though!) Wyatt

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FWIW, In the book "Stick and Rudder", Langewiesche makes vague references to aircraft that do not have rudder pedals — the rudder is automatically controlled by the yoke as to always maintain coordinated flight (And no, I’m not referring to MS flightsim aircraft I myself have never heard of such an aircraft (it would sure make crosswind landings interesting, though!)

        Hey there, Mr. Humor.  The Ercoupe is one such aircraft.  From what I understand, it is crabbed all the way down onto the runway.  I have also read accounts of ercoupe pilots landing diagonally along the runway when the crosswind wasn’t too bad. — Harg Tholan "We did Nebraska in 7-1/2 minutes today. I think that’s the best way to do Nebraska."                            - SR-71 Pilot

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I am a disabled person based in the UK who would dearly like to learn to fly.  I have very limited use of my feet which as I understand it,

You need to check out the International Wheelchair Aviators.  Their web page is at: http://www.dsg.cs.tcd.ie/dsg_people/sloubtin/IWA.html I know this because my knees are deteriorating at such a rate that I’ll probably be in a wheelchair by next Christmas. — Paul Tomblin, PP-ASEL         _|_        Rochester Flying Club web page:

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: In the book "Stick and Rudder", Langewiesche makes vague references to : aircraft that do not have rudder pedals — the rudder is automatically : controlled by the yoke as to always maintain coordinated flight : (And no, I’m not referring to MS flightsim aircraft : I myself have never heard of such an aircraft (it would sure make : crosswind landings interesting, though!) In the 767 simulator I "flew" at Boeing, the rudder is controlled as you mention. But it DOES have rudder pedals! — Seattle area Pipe Organ home page: http://www.eskimo.com/~sfox/seaorgan.htm

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 In the book "Stick and Rudder", Langewiesche makes vague references to  aircraft that do not have rudder pedals — the rudder is automatically  controlled by the yoke as to always maintain coordinated flight  (And no, I’m not referring to MS flightsim aircraft    I myself have never heard of such an aircraft (it would sure make  crosswind landings interesting, though!) The plane you have heard about is known as the "Ercoupe" or "AirCoupe", depending on the year. ERCO is "Engineering Research Corporation" whose first product was the "Coupe", called the ERcoupe. This was the first tricycle aircraft and was designed by Fred Weick. Fred is famous for many things, including the "takeoff/landing over a 50-foot obstacle" specification. He went on to design the Cherokee and The first JATO (Jet Assisted Take Off) was an Ercoupe, which test led to the foundation of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. The Ercoupe, with its distinctive twin-tail design, was originally provided with "coordinated controls", ie. the rudder was connected to the yoke and yaw correction was automatic – NO RUDDER PEDALS. The steerable nose wheel was connected directly to the yoke – you taxied exactly like you drive your car. This, and limited elevator travel, contributed to the result that the ‘Coupe is "characteristicly incapable of spinning"! You can try, but the plane will fly out of an incipient spin. An entirely new catagory of pilot license was created for the thousands of new pilots who had never seen a rudder pedal. This plane was designed pre WW2 and didn’t get into real production till 1945 when thousands were sold through such esteemed aviation outlets as the Men’s Department at Macy’s!! "Rudder Kits" were available to convert the plane from 2-control ("coordinated") to 3-control ("conventional").   Landing a 2-control ‘Coupe is an "interesting" experience!! You crab it into the wind and land that way!! The nose wheel will caster and straighten it out ON THE RUNWAY. Another historical fact: all original Boeing 707 pilots were taught to land in the ‘Coupe – the 707 had a similar problem – the low hanging engines meant that you couldn’t drop a wing into a crosswind – you had to land them crabbed!! The plane was built by a series of manufacturers:   Company               Model           Years     Production   ERCO/Sanders          415C-415H       1940-41         112                                         1945-52       5,028   Forney/Air Products   F1, F1A         1956-60         157                                         1960-62          25   Alon                  A2 AirCoupe     1964-67         245   Mooney                A2A AirCoupe    1967-68          21                         A2A Cadet       1968             38                         M10 Cadet       1969-70          59                                         Total         5,685 Mooney built the last 59 with a "Mooney tail" instead of the distinctive twin tail of all previous production. This, and other changes, created an airplane which could stall and spin with the best but also lost a lot of performance. It was their intention that the M10 Cadet be their "trainer". "Alon" was an interesting bit of history: While Forney was building the ‘Coupe, one company which came mighty close to buying the type certificate was Beech!! John Allen (Beech plant manager) and Lee Higdon (Beech accounting manager) felt strongly that Beech should take it on, but Olive Beech got cold feet and said no. So they quit and setup the Allen-Higdon (ALON) company to do it. They were so impressed with the plane that they bought the company!! Alon made a number of speed/power changes to the airplane and reverted to providing rudder pedals as standard, with the 2-control by special order only. They changed from vertically sliding window entry to a sliding canopy. Why do I know so much about ‘Coupes?? I learned to fly in a 1966 Alon A2A AirCoupe which I now own with my brother. I consider my Cheetah to be a 4-place ‘Coupe! Some people dump on ‘Coupes, much as they dump on "Grummans". Its unfair and ignorant criticism. But, as with the Grummans, it keeps the prices down and the secret in the family!! My brother, for instance, owns a Pitts S2B, a Pitts S1, a Taylorcraft and the ‘Coupe. He flies airshows in his Pitts and was a Canadian aerobatics champion. Which is his favourite plane?? The ‘Coupe!! If you ever have to opportunity to fly a ‘Coupe – try it!! Michael. Grumman Cheetah C-GRCC President, The Gray Research Group                  |   Compuserve: 70631,155 Project Manager, Blue Sky Community Networks        |  Voice/Fax 204.943.9000 —– No good deed will go unpunished. ——- Standard Disclaimers Apply —

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I am a disabled person based in the UK who would dearly like to learn to fly.  I have very limited use of my feet which as I understand it, in the normal course of events, would make it difficult for me to control the rudder of any aircraft using rudder pedals.  I am able to drive a car with hand controls.  In the light of these facts I have three questions: a.  Is is possible to control the rudder of a plane without the use of pedals?

FWIW, In the book "Stick and Rudder", Langewiesche makes vague references to aircraft that do not have rudder pedals — the rudder is automatically controlled by the yoke as to always maintain coordinated flight (And no, I’m not referring to MS flightsim aircraft I myself have never heard of such an aircraft (it would sure make crosswind landings interesting, though!) Wyatt

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I am a disabled person based in the UK who would dearly like to learn to fly.  I have very limited use of my feet which as I understand it, in the normal course of events, would make it difficult for me to control the rudder of any aircraft using rudder pedals.  I am able to drive a car with hand controls.  In the light of these facts I have three questions: a.  Is is possible to control the rudder of a plane without the use of pedals? b.  If the answer to question a. is in the affirmative.  Are there any flight schools in the UK that can teach me on such an aircraft? c.  Finally, a more general question.  Is there any kind of association of for disabled pilots in the UK. Sorry if these questions seem a little basic or the answers to them self-evident to some people but it has always been a dream of mine to learn to fly and I want to make all possible enquires before giving up that dream and going back to basket weaving! Best Wishes Henry

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a.  Is is possible to control the rudder of a plane without the use of pedals? b.  If the answer to question a. is in the affirmative.  Are there any flight schools in the UK that can teach me on such an aircraft? c.  Finally, a more general question.  Is there any kind of association of for disabled pilots in the UK. Sorry if these questions seem a little basic or the answers to them self-evident to some people but it has always been a dream of mine to learn to fly and I want to make all possible enquires before giving up that dream and going back to basket weaving! Best Wishes Henry

Hi Henry!,    In answer to your questions, yes, its most certainly possible to fly a plane without using your feet for the rudders…and there is an organization called the International Wheelchair Aviators.  There is a website with a whole bunch of info about this organization and with a lot of details that will help answer your questions. It’s address is: http://www.dsg.cs.tcd.ie/~sloubtin/IWA.html If you have web access, then visit this site .  If you don’t have web access, drop me a email and I’ll try to get you the info in some other manner.  Go for your dream!   Best wishes, stephanie http://www.mich.com/~bhmirage (aviation related)

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