Question:

In a message sent ’round the world, Randy Story poured fuel on the fire with the following: … If even one value is expected by all then by definition it is objective and absolute.

Got any credible references to support this absurd claim? God has placed this expectation within us to be valued by others, no matter how hard we try to reject it we keep coming back to it.

Your deity does not exist Randy, as has already been shown to you.   Regards,    Josef Scepticism … is the agent of truth.         — Joseph Conrad

Response:

I would never presuppose that anything obligate another. My point Josef which you know well is that one cannot deny logic or values I cannot deny logic, true. What the heck makes you think I cannot deny values? Values are subjective. It is in their very nature that some hold them differently than others.    That doesnt matter, yes you can deny logic

Not truthfully. but you must use it in your denial. Yes you can deny values but you value your own denial.

Since values are subjective. If I said you dont have a right to your denial I would find out quickly just how much you do value it.

And your point is?    We can say values are relative but we dont belivee our own statement is relative, as such it is self evident that values exist and there is no denying them.

They exist in peoples minds, and only there. They are not absolutes.    We dont find out what people really believe about values by what they say or even what they do. We find it what they want done to themselves. All men want their opinion to be valued, all men want the freedom to express their opinion. Values are undeniable, meaning that even if we try to deny them we want others to value our denial. Self defeating.

I still don’t see what your point is. The issue is whether such a thing as an objective moral value exists. I say there is no such animal. No moral value exists outside someone’s head. ## We must keep America whole and safe and unspoiled.  AL CAPONE

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would never presuppose that anything obligate another. My point Josef which you know well is that one cannot deny logic or values I cannot deny logic, true. What the heck makes you think I cannot deny values? Values are subjective. It is in their very nature that some hold them differently than others.    That doesnt matter, yes you can deny logic Not truthfully. but you must use it in your denial. Yes you can deny values but you value your own denial. Since values are subjective. If I said you dont have a right to your denial I would find out quickly just how much you do value it. And your point is?    We can say values are relative but we dont belivee our own statement is relative, as such it is self evident that values exist and there is no denying them. They exist in peoples minds, and only there. They are not absolutes.    We dont find out what people really believe about values by what they say or even what they do. We find it what they want done to themselves. All men want their opinion to be valued, all men want the freedom to express their opinion. Values are undeniable, meaning that even if we try to deny them we want others to value our denial. Self defeating. I still don’t see what your point is. The issue is whether such a thing as an objective moral value exists. I say there is no such animal. No moral value exists outside someone’s head.

   Yes but we all want the exact same values when applied to ourself. Show me one person that doesnt value his freedom to express himself. Logic exists only in the mind also and to what we apply it to. A pile of 10 oranges is just a pile of oranges but in our mind we know there is ten. Values exist because we all expect the same considerations even when we dont give them to others. If even one value is expected by all then by definition it is objective and absolute. God has placed this expectation within us to be valued by others, no matter how hard we try to reject it we keep coming back to it.

Response:

In a message sent ’round the world, Randy Story poured fuel on the fire with the following: … I would never presuppose that anything obligate another.

So much for your claims of an absolute morality, then. My point Josef which you know well is that one cannot deny logic or values without cusing or claiming that their own statement has value. As such it is self evident that values exist jus as it is self evident that logic applies to reality. This is as clear as any empirical evidence one could claim for any subject and you know it, even if you think its twaddle.

The twaddle, Randy, is your claim that this demonstrates an objective morality. You just dont like the twaddle because there is no escaping it.

  Regards,    Josef As long as people will accept crap, it will be financially profitable to dispense it.         — Dick Cavett

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yet there ARE some moral maxims that seem to transcend time and place and are universally held to be true, in all places and by all societies. No there are not. Somewhere you’ll find someone who doesn’t subscribe to it, no matter what the maxim is. A good example is murder– Oh murder is easy. To rationalize murder all you need do is call it something else. Is an executioner paid by the state to kill people a murderer? What about the professional soldier? is it any less wrong now than it was when Moses brought the Ten Commandments to the Israelites? Exodus 32:27 He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Put your sword on your side, each of you! Go back and forth from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor.’" 28The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded, and about three thousand of the people fell on that day. 29 Moses said, "Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of the LORD, each one at the cost of a son or a brother, and so have brought a blessing on yourselves this day." Murder or ordination? Assasination or blessing? So my question is: Is it true that there can be NO objective morality, Yes it is true, but for an entirely different reason. The reason is that objective issues are independent of mind. They are true or they are false of themselves, no matter what your opinion on the issue may be. That is not the case with morals. ## We always make God our accomplice ## so we may legalize our own iniquities.

Stop nitpicking.  I thought that it would be obvious that I meant the taking of someone’s life at the hand of another–not state executions or wars, or killing in self-defense.  I meant pre-meditated murder, as in First-degree murder . . . That is always wrong.  I have never heard ot being acceptable in any society or culture, anywhere on earth.

Response:

Stop nitpicking.  I thought that it would be obvious that I meant the taking of someone’s life at the hand of another–not state executions or wars, or killing in self-defense.  I meant pre-meditated murder, as in First-degree murder . . . That is always wrong.  I have never heard ot being acceptable in any society or culture, anywhere on earth.

Then obviously you don’t live in East L.A. There are, and have been many cultures where killing others is culturally accepted. Among the gang bangers of the ghettos of the US is an example.  As for nitpicking, well, if you had killed someone in Germany in the 1930s you would no doubt have been arrested and tried for murder. Yet what was that same government doing in places like Bergen-Belsen at the time? State executions of course, not murder. Yeah sure! Then there are the Thugee, ever heard of them? http://www.geocities.com/orthopapism/thugism.html Among the Aztec of Central America men had to be captured by warring on other tribes and then these prisoners had to be sacrificed on an altar atop a pryramid each day to ensure the sun would rise. Then on a grander scale there were sweethearts like Ghenhgis Khan who would have been heartbroken if there had been no more nations for him to invade and people to kill. But all this is irrelevant to the issue. Even if you could find something universally condemned by every single person on earth, that still wouldn’t make that a moral absolute. It would still be just a collective opinion. ## IRAN: One nation under God.

Response:

I would never presuppose that anything obligate another. My point Josef which you know well is that one cannot deny logic or values I cannot deny logic, true. What the heck makes you think I cannot deny values? Values are subjective. It is in their very nature that some hold them differently than others.

    That doesnt matter, yes you can deny logic but you must use it in your denial. Yes you can deny values but you value your own denial. If I said you dont have a right to your denial I would find out quickly just how much you do value it.     We can say values are relative but we dont belivee our own statement is relative, as such it is self evident that values exist and there is no denying them.     We dont find out what people really believe about values by what they say or even what they do. We find it what they want done to themselves. All men want their opinion to be valued, all men want the freedom to express their opinion. Values are undeniable, meaning that even if we try to deny them we want others to value our denial. Self defeating. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – without cusing or claiming that their own statement has value. Claiming value is different from claiming truth. Can you not understand the difference? As such it is self evident that values exist In the mind, as subjective opinion. jus as it is self evident that logic applies to reality. Which is objective fact. Apples and oranges. This is as clear as any empirical evidence one could claim for any subject But emperical evidence cannot always be trusted. That’s why we keep the scientific method handy. You just dont like the twaddle because there is no escaping it. It would be easily escaped by ignoring you, but I’m having a go at trying for understanding. ## A mind stretched by new ideas ## can never go back to its original dimensions.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So now, with my thin concept of universalizability or what Kant characterizes as the universal law of freedom in the Doctrine of Right, I will rpesent us with the Euclidean Geometry of morality. I realise I may be reiterating what others have said, but it is important to understand that morality and geometry are not the same thing. Our society likes to consider itself particularly alert to moral issues. We *care*.  We go out of our way to make sure that we care.  We have counsellors, after all, and what society before us ever thought to PAY people for caring?  We have special TV programmes where people can go and confess their wrongs or express their pain, and be cared at by a loving, sharing and understanding audience (and if the guests have to express themselves through physical violence or verbal abuse then of course more loving people will tune in so that they can care as well.  We say things like "I feel your pain," and "there’s so much love in this room". Surely, we are the very pinnacle of morality, because we care for each other so very much, and we fully appreciate the value of freedom and the sanctity of human life. And that is before we consider some of the things that we take for granted as being ‘right’:  the fact that half the world is starving because a tiny minority have all the money and hold all the cards.  The fact that we are stripping the planet of its resources because company bosses and politicians stand to make an enormous amount of money.  Or the fact that we have a lead nation telling off the rest of the world for thinking about building ‘weapons of mass destruction’ while it sits comfortably atop the world’s largest arsenal of those very weapons.  How about the fact that we invade and ransack one nation because it did not do what we told it, yet we turn a blind eye to massive abuses by another because we are worried that similar action there might upset our voters?  And so on. The point is that morality is not universal.  The range of different societies that have existed for any significant length of time on this planet demonstrates quite clearly that morality is a subjective thing. Each society will naturally believe it is morally superior to the others – just as we do.  We are not, though, as the myriad abuses we commit will demonstrate.  We are no more or less moral than any society before us, or after us.  We like to think that we are pretty advanced on the right and wrong front – but history will judge us harshly on that score, you can be certain, just as we now judge those that went before us. The claim that there is a central, overriding, objective morality would, like any other claim, benefit from some evidence.  And at this point, as thoughout the entirety of Earth’s history, there is no such evidence. Every society, every group, does what benefits it – and in our eyes some are worse than others.  But morality, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. — Midwinter Excellent post, Midwinter! I agree with you 100% – especially your last statement. Shalom, Bill

Yet there ARE some moral maxims that seem to transcend time and place and are universally held to be true, in all places and by all societies. A good example is murder–is it any less wrong now than it was when Moses brought the Ten Commandments to the Israelites? So my question is: Is it true that there can be NO objective morality, or has mankind just chosen to turn a blind eye against it, when it suited his purposes to do so?

Response:

Yet there ARE some moral maxims that seem to transcend time and place and are universally held to be true, in all places and by all societies.

No there are not. Somewhere you’ll find someone who doesn’t subscribe to it, no matter what the maxim is. A good example is murder–

Oh murder is easy. To rationalize murder all you need do is call it something else. Is an executioner paid by the state to kill people a murderer? What about the professional soldier? is it any less wrong now than it was when Moses brought the Ten Commandments to the Israelites?

Exodus 32:27 He said to them,

Question:

1 Corinthians 14:xx since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the teaching of the faithful that you seek to excel. Let all things be done for such edification; Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may speak an understanding of God which comes from God. He who utters such divine revelations speaks comfort, encourages and edifies the faithful. desire earnestly to understand and speak divine revelations, and do not forbid to speak with unknown spiritual languages.

what’s funny is that this distinction between "tongues" and "profesying" is a subtle one. where it seems to come down to what grasps an understanding. they both seem to be divine revelations. that is, speaking in an unknown spiritual language[tongues] with God would offer up some sort of direct communication with God, and spiritual utterences from God about God[profesying] would be a direct communication from God to one and/or many people. and so, apparently, you can start to gauge your own progress and spiritual growth by how well you understand things about God. because, apparently, some people can read texts and hear people explain and walk away with a big fat goose egg. that is one of these — 0 that’s a zero. and apparently, you don’t really ‘know’ as you ought to ‘know’ unless and until this knowledge of God is oozing out of your pores. not just a mental exercise but in actual practice. so, how well does God know -you-? and then your understanding is again a gauge of your progress saying that God knows -you- as well as your natural understanding is aligned with your "spirit" or that your actions correspond to this ethereal quality otherwise known as "Love". "Love" which may not correspond directly with the human understanding’s desire for safety, security and personal gratification. where God’s knowledge of -you- is that thing which may transcend the grave. if God doesn’t know -you- there’s nothing but a big fat goose egg to raise up out of the grave. that is one of these — 0 that’s a zero. how you act in "Love" is this gauge of how well God knows -you- but dear olde Jesus cautions; "don’t fool yourself with some charade. the facade will quickly crumble to reveal… the big fat goose egg." that is one of these — 0 that’s a zero. so, that’s another one of the funny things; like, you throw your life away to find your life cuz if you hold on too dearly to it, you will lose it. like, if you’re overly selfish, you lose your self and if you empty yourself, you find the real actual you. "Love" never fails. that’s how it works. it can’t be just some word people throw around on special occasions. that would never last.

Response:

and, in likeness, if someone thought a cutting from some potted plant they found at a yard sale might look good in my window, and i didn’t already have that variety, i may even see fit to take care of it properly. like, i’m not above adding stuff to my ‘house’ that didn’t originate in my own ‘house’.

speaking of which, here’s something that our dear friend Paul left on my doorstep; just look at it for a second. i editted the passage a bit to emphasize a specific bit. i didn’t change any of the syntax or meanings. 1 Corinthians 13:1 and 14:xx-xx Though I speak with the unknown spiritual languages of men and of angels…. He who speaks in unknown spiritual languages does not speak to men but to God, in the spirit he speaks mysteries, for no one understands him; He who speaks in an unknown spiritual language teaches himself, if I pray in an unknown spiritual language, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. Therefore let him who speaks in an unknown spiritual language pray that he may interpret. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. this is very strange. notice that there is a distinction between the "spirit" and the "understanding" also notice that you can edify your "self" in a manner which your "understanding" is unaware. hold on a minute, now look at this. same passage different portion; 1 Corinthians 14:xx since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the teaching of the faithful that you seek to excel. Let all things be done for such edification; Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may speak an understanding of God which comes from God. He who utters such divine revelations speaks comfort, encourages and edifies the faithful. desire earnestly to understand and speak divine revelations, and do not forbid to speak with unknown spiritual languages. now he’s suggesting that comprehending spiritual knowledge of God with your corporeal "understanding" is of primary importance. that is, understanding God with your "understanding" but look, he’s also suggesting that you may find yourself speaking with God in a language that is unknown even to -you- but that some thing about -you- is getting the message. so, obviously, there is some sort of intimate connection between this "spirit" and your corporeal "understanding," even if the ‘two’ are non-identical. and now, what would be nice, would be for that "spirit" part of -you- to relay the message to what amounts to your ‘corporeal’ understanding, and reform -that- thing of -you- in the image of Christ. as this should relieve any conflict which your corporeal "understanding" may place on your "spirit" which would inhibit your spiritual growth. a spiritual growth that will further cleanse the conscience of "dead works" bringing your -actions- into a greater conformity with your understandable "intentions". understandable intentions which more and more closely align with a Spirit who knows no -want- so, it’s like your understandable intentions are the nexus point between this "spirit" and your corporeal "understanding". like, your spirit shows itself in your -intentions- and your corporeal understanding shows itself in your actions. and you’d like to align a purity of intentions to blameless actions. each feeding off the other feeding from the root of the vine which is God. 1 Corinthians 14:xx For God is not the author of confusion but of peace and that’s what Jesus -was- by a peculiarity of birth, Jesus’ "spirit" -was- The Holy Spirit and Jesus’ corporeal understanding became perfectly aligned with -that-. with some etceterae i may would like to get to. to kill an odd moment.

Response:

YHWH God became a human being and declared a peace by living a life in complete and unobstructed Faith, seeing no corruption, uttering no lies, taking no bribes, bringing no harm upon anyone, healing sickness, enduring the Cross, proving Love. entry in to the crucifixion thru Jesus. entry in to Christ’s resurrection and your own personal newness of Life thru the Indwelling Nature of the Holy Spirit.

and like, i can’t move away from this because anyone thinks it’s cornball or unhip or not with it or a bunch of cronies decide to point fingers at me and chuckle and say cruel things to me and about me. there is no other place for me to go. this -is- my reality. i don’t see myself in -that- world, anyway. i figure either -they’ll- wise up or -they’ll- stay lost in the dark, but -i- ain’t tossing -my-self in to the Abyss for anyone.

Response:

sometimes i like the lamp over in the corner, and sometimes i like it in the middle of the room. but the lamp stays and so do i. keep your eyes fixed on the Cross. know -its- meaning. it’s really very simple.

YHWH God became a human being and declared a peace by living a life in complete and unobstructed Faith, seeing no corruption, uttering no lies, taking no bribes, bringing no harm upon anyone, healing sickness, enduring the Cross, proving Love. YHWH Savior became Savior of all mankind YHWH Defender now defends against the sting of Death that is your ticket to resurrection entry in to the crucifixion thru Jesus. entry in to Christ’s resurrection and your own personal newness of Life thru the Indwelling Nature of the Holy Spirit. that’s your deal. freely granted to whom ever will accept it. God’s own thumbprint right on your forehead. yeah, it’ll leave an impression.

Response:

and then say that part of what "Holy" means is to be complete. and so, while i wouldn’t suggest that i undergo some radical alteration of my personal identity at whim or by happenstance, i do make, and have made, additions towards a more complete personailty structure. some of which were the shedding of so-called "dead works" that are said to be unfruitul.

that’s all i meant when i said, in likeness, a while back, that there’s a big difference between moving furniture around, and razing a ‘house,’ crumbling its foundations. someone could come into -my- ‘house’ and move furniture around if they like, and i’d probably even help move it around, but that shouldn’t be taken as some indication that there’s no structure and they can just push me around like a paper doll in my own ‘house’ sometimes i like the lamp over in the corner, and sometimes i like it in the middle of the room. but the lamp stays and so do i. and, in likeness, if someone thought a cutting from some potted plant they found at a yard sale might look good in my window, and i didn’t already have that variety, i may even see fit to take care of it properly. like, i’m not above adding stuff to my ‘house’ that didn’t originate in my own ‘house’. but i’m not likely to act on someone else’s brilliant idea that i dismantle the plumbing and pump cyanide into the water well. and anything that would attempt to interfere with Jesus and his bloody little exercise on the Cross is easy enough for me to recognize as nothing more than some object lesson for those who would know Christ but may not be so well equipped so as to sidestep entanglements. can do -me- no harm. won’t be prominently displayed in my ‘house’ may point at it from time to time and say; "look at this comical attempt to steer people away from Jesus Christ and the Crucifixion" keep your eyes fixed on the Cross. know -its- meaning. it’s really very simple.

Response:

and so, in considering a genesis from a singularity state, no triggering mechanism can be positted and therefore, a very absolute requirement for some sort of ‘magician’ to speak things into existance from nothing at all is the consequence with which you are stuck. now, you can say to yourself, if you wish, that this "magician" or "god" or what-have-you does nothing but create universes and then rolls over and goes back to sleep or whatever,..plays golf or something,

of course we don’t call -YHWH-Jesus-The Word of God- a ‘magician’. no, we have a more precise explanation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but you will not be able to remove this ‘magician’ or ‘god’ from your understanding of how this universe came in to existance at Time T = 0.

Response:

of course we don’t call -YHWH-Jesus-The Word of God- a ‘magician’. no, we have a more precise explanation.

and so do you.

Response:

and so, in considering a genesis from a singularity state, no triggering mechanism can be positted and therefore, a very absolute requirement for some sort of ‘magician’ to speak things into existance from nothing at all is the consequence with which you are stuck.

now, you can say to yourself, if you wish, that this "magician" or "god" or what-have-you does nothing but create universes and then rolls over and goes back to sleep or whatever,..plays golf or something, but you will not be able to remove this ‘magician’ or ‘god’ from your understanding of how this universe came in to existance at Time T = 0. and, if some people want to say they have an evidence that this "god" is still at work doing things in this universe here and now, well, not a soul can pop up and suggest that their lack of understanding or knowledge in the matter is to be used in any manner to contradict a form of positive identification. that is, you can’t use an ‘i don’t know’ to contradict an ‘i know’ don’t take the law into your own hands. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this immaterial ‘device’ is employed by God and Jesus made use of ‘it’

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       genesis from singularity                  ^       B                     B       "present" time distance there are vast expanses of cold interspesed amongst somewhat smaller pockets of stuff like galaxies etc even the fact that there are galaxies at all is a curious thing to note. why not a complete uniformity given genesis from singularity? first no trigger and then no uniformity.

speaking of genesis from singularity and lack of any triggering mechanisms; you have to provide as clear a description for the state of affairs -at- Time T = 0 it’s only much after that that you can begin to speak of any sort of atomic material, and any properties which accompany -that- stuff. properties which include heat content, electromagnetic forces, gravitational forces, and atomic forces, work and energy, cannot be credibly cited as ‘locked’ inside of any ’singularity’ waiting to burst forth. no, these properties are the -consequence- of atomic material. and so, in considering a genesis from a singularity state, no triggering mechanism can be positted and therefore, a very absolute requirement for some sort of ‘magician’ to speak things into existance from nothing at all is the consequence with which you are stuck. so, backtracking from the atomic world..; you have your little atom, and you see it like a spring. just like a little slinky. the slinky is wah-wah-ing back and forth. the wah-wah-ing is what’s giving you time space and temperature. that is, the vibrational qualities of the spring carry the attributes of time space and temperature. now, you claim you’d like to visit a ‘place’ where the spring is compressed into a void of zero space. fine, you crush the atomic spring into an entirely different substance. well, now that "stuff" has no spring qualities. you can no longer cite springlike qualities in regards to this -other- stuff with any degree of certainty whatsever. so, you can’t speak of concepts like "infinite heat content" and "infinite density" with any reasonable understanding. no, you have vanished those ’springlike’ qualities in favor of some -other- set of qualities. qualities that you can never fully realize from within the constraints of your "physical" reality. that is, you have, first, provided the ultimate necessity for a "substance" that has no ‘physical’ reality and now you must divorce yourself from making a ‘physical’ attribution upon this "stuff" that has no springlike qualities. you -can- convince yourself, quite readily, that this "stuff" has no "beginning" but you can not make this broad leap that the qualities understood in the atomic reality apply, in any fashion, to this "stuff" that has no springlike qualities. you can’t even go so far as to suggest that this "stuff" is "consumed" into becoming the atomic material. but you remain stuck citing a "stuff" that isn’t ‘real’. failing to do so it tantamount to lieing. in crushing the spring out of the atom, you have an entirely different ‘pseudo-substance’ to classify. what you can not broadly assume is that this ‘pseudo-substance’ has the springlike attributes of time space and temperature locked in a void "waiting" to burst forth. you are not considering a loaded spring. you are ceding ’substance’ to the immaterial. energy is not present in a non-atomic state. no mass, no energy in the material sense. no volume no gravity, no mass. whatever is the composition of ‘it’ gravitational potential energy is lost without mass. electromagnetic energy is lost without atomic structure. heat energy is lost without heat content. atomic energy is lost without atomic structure. and you have no trigger to push over any metastable teetering. what you have is a definition of energy as an ability to do work and generate heat, outside of volume, no work can be accomplished, and without atomic vibrations, no heat can be generated. so, you cannot suggest that heat and work were trapped, springloaded, in a singularity. as heat and work -are- virtues of the material. no trigger. you can’t just say; "all energy was in the form of heat and waiting to be converted to work" aside from matter you have no heat. you need matter to generate heat. without matter and without volume, you have no heat or work potential. those things come in to existance simultaneously. i said; "infinite heat capacity and infinite density are unreal concepts" inasmuch as ‘infinity’ is -not- a ‘real’ number. infinity fails as a ‘real’ number by additive identities, 1 plus infinity = infinity infinity plus  infinity = infinity any real number, when you add another nmumber to it takes to the next successor and does not return itself. no real number, when added to itself, returns itself. infinity is a "non-real" ‘mathematical’ concept. therefore, ‘infinite heat capacity’ and ‘infinite density’ are meaningless statements. what you have is some non-material with no forcework acting upon it triggered by some intelligent Hand. physically ‘at rest’ with no forcework to jostle anything material at all. which is why i liken it to a matter/energy ‘generator’ you can’t speak of ‘it’ being ‘consumed’ to produce the material. and you can’t demonstrate that ‘it’ is not still just as available ‘now’ as it was ‘then’ this immaterial ‘device’ is employed by God and Jesus made use of ‘it’

Response:

long story short; hebrew is a funny language. has no verb tense. one word, ‘hayah’ stands in for,  to be, was, is,  will be, will become, etc. so, gen 1:1 and gen 1:2 have a few ways they can be viewed, and so, you sort of have to look at several and resolve  a matter. in english you may see; "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" but hebrew has no verb tense. so, another way is; "in the beginning when God began to create the heavens and the earth" and then 1:2 seems to say two things; one way; "the earth was [without] form and void" which basically can mean that when God began to create, the earth, as yet, did not exist. only problem now with genesis from singularity is how and in what form the stuff started to condense out from ‘light/matter’ you still have no solid evidence to suggest that lots of stuff didn’t just pop out, fully formed, with ‘apparent’ pre-set chronometries. like i said yesterday, the acentricity [no center] of singularity sets you up for this apparent ‘immediate vastness’ and clocks that fall out of solution pre-set and running but not ‘beginning’ at 00:00:00. -these- are basically facts that speak to our inability to find out a thing that avoids our direct experience. that is, the phenomena themselves -ain’t- so straightforward and so, if you -really- would like to grasp an understanding, then you have absolutely no room for playing silly games with yourself. Time is already a strange enough toy. and then, another way to read it is; "the earth -became- a desolation" and then the story speaks of it’s rehabilitation. in certain respects, both stories are happening simultaneously. like i said, hebrew is a funny, and somewhat strange, language. anyway, looking at the rendering that says; ‘earth did not yet exist when God began to create the heavens and the earth’ -that- ‘first day’ fits right into the view that the material universe started out in a flash of "light/matter" that is, some gum travelling very very fast whose internal clocks are at a near standstill. whose internal clocks begin to speed up as the "light/matter" condenses and separates out. and -that- ‘first day’ spans a very long period of time as viewed from contemporary time frame observations. the portion about the earth being rehabilitated from a state of desolation is left for a later date. where the desolation is a by-product of a violent upheaval associated with a grasp for control as i’ve outlined in another set of posts. upheaval not caused by God but rectified and being rectified by God. but also, one thing to think on is that the universe is not a homogenous blob of warmth. there are vast expanses of cold interspesed amongst somewhat smaller pockets of stuff like galaxies etc even the fact that there are galaxies at all is a curious thing to note. why not a complete uniformity given genesis from singularity? first no trigger and then no uniformity. and one other thing about hebrew it really is sort of; "i be  you be  he be" "i be go to supermarket yesterday" there really are several stories happening at the same ‘time’ and not two stories stitched together. one sentence that can be read two ways. the earth didn’t exist          xxxxx the earth became a desolation the earth didn’t exist,        [YHWH] the earth came into existance  [YHWH] the earth became a desolation     ['Lucifer'] the earth was revitalized  [YHWH] the earth became a desolation again, [Adam] the earth was revitalized again. [Jesus] and God’s understanding of ‘a day as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day’ also speaks of competing observational time frames. you’ve got to sort of blend with the accounting, and you can’t always make them say what you want them to say.

Response:

…       genesis from singularity                  ^       B                     B       "present" time distance look, at the ‘moment’ of genesis from singularity, all the ’stuff’ is moving very fast and Time is moving very slow, for that ’stuff’ according to your perspective ‘here and now’ or [B] –remember when we mentally send an astronaut off on a mission at near light speed, his internal clocks slow down as perceived by his compatriots who remain at home and don’t go off in to space.– now look, your ‘now’ is [B] and all the ’stuff’ is now moving very much slower than it was at [A] and likewise, B’s Time is moving very much faster than Time at [A] and so, you have a situation that says that according to ‘now’ 1 second ‘then’ equals some larger number ‘now’ that is, 1 second at [A] may be what amounts to 6 x 10^7 seconds ‘now’ that is, one second ‘then’ is about 2 years ‘now’ sure, ‘then’ a second is a ’second’ and speed of light is ‘c’ but ‘now’ observer’s velocity is much slower and relative speed of light remains ‘c’ and so, Time seems faster. if you go and do the calculation, you may get a somewhat different number, but at ‘lightspeed’ velocity, the initial ’stuff’ is experiencing Time at a ’slower’ rate. and making any claims that ‘the stuff’ was experiencing 1 second ‘then’ in the same pattern as 1 second ‘now’ is unwarranted. what you end up with is a universe which is very ‘young’ in comparison to Time as ‘understood’ in the moments of genesis. that is, at 2 years per second, your ‘14 billion’ year time span reduces to about 1 day. so, at 1 year per second, it’s about 2 days. etc. at any rate, some situation like this is factual. our entire ‘experience’ amounts to a matter of days when viewed from the perspective of singularity. strange. and one other little thing; we cannot assume ‘centric’ inflation. in part because at simngularity, there is no possible ‘center’ to anything. and so, what you may be stuck with is a time T = 0 where no space-time is in operation followed by an immediate vastness with no apparent interstitial time domain. that is, the clocks ‘begin’ ‘In Medias Reas’ conceptually, because of the immediate ‘appearance’ of a vastness. that is, conceptually, no single central, pin sized volume but an apparent multiplex of discontinuous pin sites of ignition. and a time domain built into the discontinuos, acentric ignition. that, and interstellar space still seems to be filled with a haze if you must know. that is, claiming vacuum seems presumptuous. what it comes down to is this; that those ‘initial’ clocks are still ticking v  e  r  y      s  l  o  w  l  y   when viewed thru the ‘now and you have a situation of competing time domains to grapple with, for a clearer understanding of exactly where you are ‘now’ according to whom. aside from the fact that the lack of a central region in singularity leads to that wierd bit about an apparent ‘immediate vastness’ strange thing is, no matter how ‘you’ look at it, dear olde God can see several clocks, ticking, at variant rates, simultaneously, and not lose track of event sequences in multiple persepectives. God doesn’t ‘age’ with the passing of Time. the instant of your passing can be stretched out to cover your entire span and the entire universal time sequence is nothing more than a tendency towards a blink of an eye.

Response:

what if our little friend Lucifer became like a candle that had no Fire, only as he considered himself, he carried around the memory of his diminished brilliance.

just remember, Lucifer was not denied any thing. Lucifer was created in Perfection, sealed the sum. it was an injustice that Lucifer invented that was the birth of the Lie. Lucifer saw "God" as a thing to be grasped. but Lucifer is -not- The Creator and won’t become the Creator by any means. obviously, there is, at the very least, one attribute that God cannot bestow on any Creation. and that is The Identification -as- Creator. God can Create a Being that ’seals the sum,’ but that Creation can -never- be identified as Creator. and this Identification carries with it a Life all its own that will not be subject to mimicry. God isn’t ‘holding back’ this Identification is simply non-transferrable. and we praise and admire God -as- Creator. we never seek a thing for ourselves that is not ours to have. We accept the Gracious Gift of Life. and we praise and admire God -as- Creator. and, God can endow the Creation with creative abilities, but, God will never take on the attribution of ‘creation’. God alone is Creator and -never- "creation" what is man that you should consider him? you made him lower than the immortals to raise him above. man is malleable man’s character can be molded the immortals were created immutable the immortals were created in perfection. some displayed a covetous nature. this covetousness is Unjust. these saw equallity with God a thing to be grasped. they covetted a stature that was not their own. they saw the Divine manifestation in themselves, assumed there was no greater attribute, and desired to take that which was not their own. thus disqualifying themselves of Love. if God had been responsible for the covetousness found in certain of the immortals, then all of them would have become covetous and there’d be no such thing as a Michael or a Gabriel. but, Death did enter and only God could swallow that up thru Christ. YHWH is Savior YHWH is your friend YHWH is God they birthed a Lie. but the Lie is a phantom. as we shine a Light of Truth the Lie can be dispelled. the Lie has no reality of its own. they should be Perfect beneath the Lie. the Lie is blinding them to who they are. they haven’t changed. they simply don’t know who they are. but they will and so will you. man is part and parcel of the remediation effort that was ordained before the beginning. God did not bring the covetous nature in to being by Divine forethought. but, realizing the possibility of such an arisal, had a remediation effort at the ready. and we see Jesus. who emptied himself and became as lower than the immortals to suffer death. it was not possible that the grave could hold down the indestructible life. as perfect Love was manifested within those walls. and Jesus has taken his human attribute in to a place of  equality with God. not by covetous desire, but by willful submission. God took the crucible and made it his own. God made himself lower than God, and proved once and for all, that God is God, and there is no other. for he did not covet equality with God. equality he possessed, in Glory, before the beginning. he emptied himself, and became a thing despised. proving Love rising out of the belly of the great fish. your sign is made manifest. now, it is our duty to shine a Light in the eyes of the fallen immortals. and lift them back up to the prior state. in Love for our God, who alone is God. see, nothing really -changed- about those immortals when they discovered who they were. the major change was in their own self Image. they saw -themselves- in a different Light. they saw -themselves- as beneath God. but they held on to the manifestation of the covetous injustice they had displayed. and God cast them in to the crucible that is Earth. and as the King of Babylon waltzed out on to the balcony, looked over Babylon, the great city, and those immortal words left his lips;         "was it not I?" and in the moment those words crossed his lips, he lost his reason and became as an animal in the forest. but 7 years later, his reason was returned to him, and he praised and honored The Most High who dwells in unapproachable Light see, in the moment our friend, who walked among the fiery stones, on the mountain of God, said; "I will be like the Most High" a cold shiver ran down his spine and he came to the realization that he was not Most High, at all. the realization was locked in the words themselves. he didn’t say, "i am greater than the Most High" no, he said, "I -will be- _like_ the Most High" thunderstruck, he fell headlong in to madness. and Jesus watched as he fell all the way down into the material realm. not with glee the Garden of Gethsemene awaited six feet from madness "why do you seek me with clubs and torches in the night?" "i told you who i was and why i came here." "can’t you stay awake for five minutes?" "why do you seek the living among the dead?" "before your fathers were, I am" that stuff can’t hold me, i’m only here for…

Response:

Love being incomprehensible thru the veil of self centered fear. and you are in desparate need of some Mighty Hand to pull you out of this dreary open casket in the center of Hell.

that’s how this little bit goes.

Response:

that’s how this little bit goes.

i threw up some re-peats because i made mention of the ‘devil’ who we’re probably gunna let go… some day. but see, YHWH altered the Divining Serpent in form. and Nebuchadnezzar’s ‘reason returned to him’ and YHWH will reason with you. and turn you from bloody red to snow white. it’s just a matter of -really- getting your eyes opened. that God dood is like, just plain far out. if -i- had a crown, i’d take it off and toss it in God’s direction.

Response:

so,    basically,   God is Life,     God is The Living God, God did not create death, death is not God’s creation. from before; a being who failed to recognize God’s Creative uniqueness darkened [his] understanding, fabricating a Lie. God recognizes the Lie but the Lie is not God. man was intended, in part, for God’s entry into the material realm, along with a full duplication of God’s own character with unique identity parameters. our little friends, man, grabbed for the Lie and brought death into the material realm. death is still not God’s creation, it’s just a material artifact of the Lie that denies God’s Creative uniqueness. so, God, the source of Living Waters, enters fully into the material realm as Jesus. etc….skipping ahead… Jesus did not so much die, as he swallowed up death. you could say, that Death itself died in Christ. and now, God has full manipulative authority over a thing, death, which was not created by God nor was God’s intention from the onset. God cannot die and does not die and did not create death, but God entered into the material world and apprehended death and began dismantling our other little friend’s divided house. well, that house is crushed, as if it never stood, but, as for the finallity of a thing, all in good time. from before; a being who failed to recognize God’s Creative uniqueness darkened [his] understanding, fabricating a Lie. God recognizes the Lie but the Lie is not God.

so, basically,  "Lucifer/Satan" carries around this impression that [he] is "God" not a defect of manufacturing, but a personal corruption. cuz look, it’s safe to suggest that human beings don’t remember their birth or their ultimate beginnings. but on in life, human beings can develop memories that carry back beyond their own personal beginnings. that is, while you may not remember your own birth, you can "remember" that George Washington was the first president of the United States of America. so, then, look at our little friend "Lucifer/Satan" Created in Brilliance, Perfect in all ways… -not- created as a blank slate, but also, not Created in isolation. also, some of "Lucifer/Satan’s" ‘memories’ had to have been of things that predate [his] own Creation. so, some of [his] ‘psychic’ make-up, by necessity, was of The Creator, YHWH God. but what he did, was trade the evidence of [his] Creation in for [his] own personal Ideation that [he] was to be esteemed as greater than YHWH God. he darkened and covered up [his] understanding of the evidence of [his] Creation, and sought to spark an evidence of [his] own that [he] had no beginning. the evidence of [his] status as Creation was clear for [he] was not alone. others who were ‘like God’ spread their wings above the Mercy Seat, as well. -this- trade was a personal corruption. and one not shared by others ‘like God’ so look, "Lucifer/Satan" still carried this darkened understanding around with [him] when [he] was allowed access to the human beings in the Garden. truth is, "Lucifer/Satan" carried a ‘knowledge of good and evil’ which [he] had birthed in [his] own personal corruption. note: YHWH God didn’t say to the man; "don’t eat from that because you will become like me and I don’t want that" neither did YHWH God say; "don’t eat from that or -I- will kill you" but our little friend the ’serpent’ said; "if you eat of that you will become like "God"" but they didn’t become "like God" they became like "Lucifer/Satan" with a darkened understanding and personally corrupted. ashamed and morally bankrupt. but still able to pretend to themselves that everything was fine just the way it was just so long as they could manufacture their own personal cover-ups for their own personal view of inadequacy. and if anything was astray, it was someone else’s fault. not "Godlike" attributes. as we suggest to you that YHWH God went so far as to accept an admonishment of sorts onto YHWH God for a corruption that was not YHWH God’s Creation. and in so doing, disarm the fear of Death. a fear that Lies against Faith. a Faith that is the evidence of Love. a Love that perpetutes renews and redeems Life. a Life that has no beginning.                             . but they didn’t become "like God" they became like "Lucifer/Satan" with a darkened understanding and personally corrupted.

but look, God doesn’t intimately  know theft and murder, God intimately knows Love. God recognizes that which is not Love. God scans the ‘hearts’ and minds of human beings. can suggest that "Lucifer/Satan" has no ’secret’ of which God is not fully aware. ‘aware’ being the operative term. this overexaggeration of self is not Love, and God -is- Love, and therefore when God reads this in your mind, God recognizes that as -not- Love. so, look at theft murder and misrepresentation. God can not know theft murder or misrepresentation because all the stuff belongs to God, right down to the Life itself. but when one does these actions, these actions are recognized by God as stemming from a source which is -not- Love. you have an other ‘god’ and this other ‘god’ is so subtle, that God can read the intent in your mind -even- when you don’t explicitly carry the actions out. but you can’t sit there and point at the ‘devil’ cuz [he's] already pointing at you. the ‘devil’ accuses you of being like [him] and that accusation bears a malignant growth in you, because   you   fear   death. so, you become that scared little creature who surrounds himself in a fortress of futility. devoid of Love Love being incomprehensible thru the veil of self centered fear. and you are in desparate need of some Mighty Hand to pull you out of this dreary open casket in the center of Hell. and now you agree. "Talitha Cumi"    "little lamb, arise" "Lazarus, ["God has helped"] come forth" be filled with Love and live forevermore. http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=%…

Response:

John 1:47 [various translations] Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile. When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false." When Jesus saw him coming he said, "There’s a real Israelite, not a false bone in his body." Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!" Nathanael =  "gift of God" see, our friend Jesus points this person out and calls him a "true israelite" because he isn’t phony or deceitful or artificial. all that guile is not -you- they want -you- not that bogus shill for the devil and his spent flame.

Response:

see, our friend Jesus points this person out and calls him a "true israelite" because he isn’t phony or deceitful or artificial. all that guile is not -you- they want -you- not that bogus shill for the devil and his spent flame.

some accompanying things; this resembles the rather large Idol that Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of and Daniel interpretted. the Idol represents a government system of sorts. and it counterfeits the Kingdom of God. and i asked a while back; "if it’s a very good counterfeit, what’s the problem?" as an aside, "Love" entirely washes the concept of ‘Zoroastrianism’ out. and Zoroastrianism represent the second empire, Medo-Persia "mene tekel upharsin" "-your- kingdom, oh Great One, King of Confusion, has been wrested away from you and split apart" hearken back, the King of Confusion [Babylon] is the Golden Head atop the Idol. he awoke from his madness and gave honor to the Most High. the split kingdom of the Medes and Persians is the chest and arms of silver. we may begin to recognize the trouble with this counterfeit. just remember how Lucifer covetted a crown that could not ever be his. it’s Lucifer’s psyche we are punishing here. like one punishes the air when he uses his hands to talk. remember; King of Babylon [Confusion] began to take personal credit for a city he didn’t build. so look, Lucifer becomes an Adversary [Satan] and brings a darkness into the situation. but Lucifer still remembers his days as the Fair One. and in his little world, he’s now a two headed coin. one "side" all "evil" and the other "side" all good. it is Lucifer who is in an interminable struggle with Satan. Lucifer is a House Divided which -must- Fall. the Zoroastrian imperative does not represent God, but Lucifer and Satan. Lucifer makes the grab and dooms himself to an unwinnable war with his own Selfish expectation. from this point of view, what do you think we should say when we get to the belly of the statue, and find it corresponds to a winged leopard with 4 heads? the golden head was like a lion the silver chest and arms was like a bear and now, the brass torso is like a winged leopard with 4 heads. excuse me, i’ve seen a lion before, and i’ve seen a bear, but i have, as yet, not seen a living leopard with wings and 4 heads. but, aside from the fact that greece disintegrated into 4 smaller kingdoms almost immediately upon assuming the Empire, we do have Zeus and Hera, a brother and sister act, and Artemis and Apollo, another brother and sister act. once upon a time they were falling in love and now they’re only falling apart. just remember one thing, or maybe two things, the Delphic pronouncement was "Know who you are" but look, if someone else knows who you are and knows what makes you tick, this knowledge can be used to manipulate you. if this knowledge can be kept in the hands of the few, the few can manipulate the many. just look at this example; someone makes a broad generalization; "men don’t ask for directions" and then you say to yourself, if you happen to be male; "well, i wouldn’t want anyone to think me not a man, so i better not ask anyone for directions" and there you are, stuck in the middle of nowhere, won’t ask for directions cuz someone told you not to. cuz you’re taking directions from some bogus pronouncement and not yourself. they didn’t discover some innate characteristic of human behavior other than the one that they used to get you -not- to ask for directions. mind you, this is a trivial example. one trouble is, Adam and Eve became ashamed of some certain knowledge of themselves. and we can even backtrack that to Lucifer if we like. well, we can if we like. even if Lucifer is associated with the Divining Serpent in the garden. but look, obviously this shame stands in the way of any usefulness coming from a knowledge of self, and actually, can make it easier for you to be manipulated. even if it’s an unconcious fear. no, God isn’t trying to manipulate you into a corner, that should be well established in your minds. :::refrain::: if God were interested in automatic actions, God wouldn’t use conditioned response, God would have made automated creatures. remember, Eve said she felt tricked. it can be stated with some certainty that the Divining Serpent knew Eve better that she knew herself. and she was easily manipulated in to doing a thing that furthered the Divining Serpent’s ends and bringing a harm upon herself. wonder what the Divining Serpent’s state of mind was at that time. what if our little friend Lucifer became like a candle that had no Fire, only as [he] considered [himself], he carried around the memory of his diminished brilliance. our little friend Lucifer "darkened his understanding" but Lucifer apparently remains attached to a life but with the Light removed. God being the ultimate source of the Light. Satan is a blown out candle. if they blew -your- candle out, you’d be dead. what if, now our little friend is only perpetuated by this -illusion- of brilliance. and, this Satan seeks to purloin and use -your- temporary flame to feed and perpetuate [his] illusion. that is, you are born with an evanescent flame from God, one which is as the grass of the field, here today and passed tomorrow, and Satan can transfix -his- illusion of Self over -your- temporary existance. what God seeks to accomplish is to annoint you with oil, and burn the Fire of the Holy Spirit in your midst with the intent of a full duplication of God’s character in unique identity parameters. Satan is a phantom thief God is a Living Presence you are a host with a temporary dwelling here’s some statements by some other people with some statements by me interposed after <<<carats Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die. Psalms 63:1 A Psalm of David, when he was in the Wilderness of Judah. O God, thou art my God, I seek thee, my soul thirsts for thee; my flesh faints for thee, as in a dry and weary land where no water is. Genesis 6:3 Then YHWH said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years." Job 32:8 But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. <<<man is a living lump of flesh to which God <<<imparts life and gives a glimpse of understanding. <<<this lump of flesh is mortal. it dies. <<<and that bit of God returns to God. <<<hold on, that’s not all… John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, <<<God has life inherent, man does not. <<<man’s life, like that of all creatures <<<comes from God, on loan. man is a <<<temporary mortal creature. Matthew 6:27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? <<<nothing you do can make your life any longer. Matthew 16:26 For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life? <<<your life can be forfeit. <<<man cannot ransom his own life. <<<man has no eternal life inherent in him. <<<man’s life is temporary. Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. <<<here you have "life" contrasted with "hell fire" <<<and "gehenna" is a garbage dump. <<<life vs. incineration. Hebrews 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire. <<<God is [like] Fire. <<<i say [like] because it <<<is somewhat figurative. Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; <<<this "lake of fire" is the "second death" <<<not "eternal life" in hell fire. <<<death is life’s opposite. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. <<<death is the opposite of life. <<<the wages of sin is death, <<<*not* eternal life in torment. <<<the GIFT of God is eternal life thru Christ. <<<why? <<<because Christ was granted the right <<<to have life inherent in himself <<<as the Father has life in himself. <<<man does *not* have life in himself. <<<Man is MORTAL. <<<God will grant "life" to those that God chooses. 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. <<<see, this is why they go on about laying up <<<treasure for yourself "in heaven" becuz, <<<anything that won’t pass thru the "veil of fire" <<<will not be "yours". <<<and those that "die" die. <<<and the spirit in man, small s, <<<just reverts to the owner, God. <<<God is [like] Fire. obviously, the fire that alit on the disciples on the Day of Pentacost or "First Fruits" did not burn them to death or even wound them in any way. but they saw what appeared to be fire alighting on people. so, don’t get too hung up on "consuming fire" as if it must, therefore leave a pile of ashes behind. not always. the Fire of God can anihilate -and- make alive. a directive intelligence. this is sort of what the entire offer thru Christ is; a Gift of Spiritual Integrity. and, that is *not* something that human beings are born with. human beings are born with a small glimpse of understanding. and human beings cannot will themselves to live or raise themselves up after that life on loan fizzles out. and yeah, sure, this flesh existance does, … read more »

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do people change? yeah sure, the physical nature matures from infancy and ages and dies. do adults change? well, i still remember me finger painting in kindergarten. and i figure it’s not just me remembering some stranger’s past life. that was me finger painting and i still remember me then. so, that tiny speck seems to be still me, still the same. in fact i’ve carried that speck around with me all my life. that person behind my eyeballs. but have i changed at all? and more than just gotten taller? yeah sure, i’ve changed plenty. i’ve added bits towards a more complete personality. and then we look at "God" and say that God is "Holy" and then say that part of what "Holy" means is to be complete. and so, while i wouldn’t suggest that i undergo some radical alteration of my personal identity at whim or by happenstance, i do make, and have made, additions towards a more complete personailty structure. some of which were the shedding of so-called "dead works" that are said to be unfruitul. and so, while i would eschew the pretense of behaving ‘differently’ based -solely- on situation, i would hope that ‘eurekas’ or flashes of insight will never cease until or unless i gain and maintain that perfected completeness that God is. even if we maintain that the Holyness of God is something only God possesses and therefore, only God can make alive. so, the purely human use of guile and pretense to win favor in particular instances is not really ‘change’ at all but only the donning of disguise so as to manipulate and to feed the shortsighted human nature. while the renewal of your mind -by- God and the transformation and conversion into the completeness of personality will, in part, shed such a light on your own understanding that -you- can see what is worthwhile and what is nothing more than the dead works that would destroy your ties with the Divine Nature. and your cooperative efforts with God gives you character. makes it stick, as it were. etc.

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and your cooperative efforts with God gives you character. makes it stick, as it were.

of course, christians, in general, tend to look beyond just this temporal dwelling here and now. we don’t deny the importance of here and now, quite the contrary, this place offers us an ability to see a growth into a likeness of God that the "Angels" can not see. we just suggest that the complete conversion and "Glorification" of our beings into Spirit Beings in absolute likeness of God is somewhat out beyond our present ability to comprehend in total. but we catch glimpses.

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we don’t deny the importance of here and now, quite the contrary, this place offers us an ability to see a growth into a likeness of God that the "Angels" can not see.

and no, we don’t run around bad mouthing the "Angels" and saying "nyah nyah we’re gunna be like Christ and yer not" but we do expect a true conversion way out beyond just being a nice person and experiencing some small amount of the Joy of God here and now. -that- would be an ultimate ‘change’ "in the twinkling of an eye" but we don’t toss it all into the breeze here and now. well, unless you just wanna play with words. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we just suggest that the complete conversion and "Glorification" of our beings into Spirit Beings in absolute likeness of God is somewhat out beyond our present ability to comprehend in total. but we catch glimpses.

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the strange predicament of mankind, in likeness; you have a can of sardines, and should you trade it for what’s behind door number 2? so, in one respect, you jump at it and make the trade; and you get …The Iron Maiden closed up in there and the daggers inch ever closer. and you had a perfectly good can of sardines. and also, at the same time; you think to lay back on your can of sardines so, you hold on to that, and you miss out on…The Color Television. but the funny thing is, both of these outcomes are happening at the same time. locked up in the Iron Maiden watching someone else’s Color Television. watching the swampgas reclamation debates on C-Spam. and also watching an opened can of sardines rot on dry saltines. and someone has the nerve to tell you that there is hope. and all he says to you is; ‘it’s not locked’ of course, it may not be like this at all. and nobody ever asked you whether or not you even like sardines, anyway. and from the way they smell when they rot you wonder why anyone would want to reclaim swampgas in the first place. and some of the people on C-Spam just wanna pave it all over in concrete cuz they recently cornered the market in cement. and they vote to offer you up what’s behind door number 3. and you wonder why they’re voting on your life. only it’s just a dumb game show. but it’s just a can of disinfectant. but you manage to push open the Iron Maiden to go and see your prize. and all you can think at first is how nice it would be to use the disinfectant to clean out the Iron Maiden. and right before you step back in to the Iron Maiden, someone taps you on the shoulder and points you at the Color Television where now they’re playing  "This is Your Life" and you see how silly you look all cooped up in The Iron Maiden with a great big grin on your face watching the sardines decay you turn away in horror but they make you watch. and at that moment someone tosses a ball at a target and the whole show gets dunked in the water. and you’re in a straight jacket with a lead weight strapped to your feet. and hoodeeni says ‘open your mouth’ and two keys fall out, one says "please" and the other says "thank you" and immediately, you find yourself at Window 13 filling out form 479/11 and the pen actually works. and then it starts to get a little strange. and then…

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OH MY FUCKING KRISTE ON A STICK!

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OH MY FUCKING KRISTE ON A STICK!

you need to broaden your horizons period

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I just did and you’re not on it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OH MY FUCKING KRISTE ON A STICK! you need to broaden your horizons period

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Timothy Sutter wrote… OH MY FUCKING KRISTE ON A STICK! you need to broaden your horizons period I just did and you’re not on it.

fair enough. i won’t miss you.

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See you at the pearly gates. I peeked. I’m in the book.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Timothy Sutter wrote… OH MY FUCKING KRISTE ON A STICK! you need to broaden your horizons period I just did and you’re not on it. fair enough. i won’t miss you.

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Timothy Sutter wrote… Timothy Sutter wrote… OH MY FUCKING KRISTE ON A STICK! you need to broaden your horizons period I just did and you’re not on it. fair enough. i won’t miss you. See you at the pearly gates. I peeked. I’m in the book.

go play checkers with yourself.

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Actually I prefer fondling my pecker to the tune of The Star Spangled Banner. . . . .  yet waves SPOOGE!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Timothy Sutter wrote… Timothy Sutter wrote… OH MY FUCKING KRISTE ON A STICK! you need to broaden your horizons period I just did and you’re not on it. fair enough. i won’t miss you. See you at the pearly gates. I peeked. I’m in the book. go play checkers with yourself.

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Timothy Sutter wrote… go play checkers with yourself. Actually I prefer

i wouldn’t think a man would hide behind a childish name tag. afraid your ‘friends’ might find out what an imbecile you are?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually I prefer fondling my pecker to the tune of The Star Spangled Banner. . . . .  yet waves SPOOGE! Dammit.  I can never hold myself until the end. I always lose it at "bombs bursting in air." — The Not Quite Sane One remove the: "-NoSpamForMeThanksImDriving-" to reply.

You’re listening to the symphonic version then, aren’t you? Play Jimi Hendrix’s version from Woodstock instead. I double-your-money-back guarantee you’ll spooge at least seven times throughout that version!!! heh heh

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OH MY FUCKING KRISTE ON A STICK! Nope. It’s some other asshole on a stick.

Probably that "grey" person who has the weird anal fetish. — The Not Quite Sane One remove the: "-NoSpamForMeThanksImDriving-" to reply.

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Actually I prefer fondling my pecker to the tune of The Star Spangled Banner. . . . .  yet waves SPOOGE!

Dammit.  I can never hold myself until the end. I always lose it at "bombs bursting in air." — The Not Quite Sane One remove the: "-NoSpamForMeThanksImDriving-" to reply.

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OH MY FUCKING KRISTE ON A STICK!

Nope. It’s some other asshole on a stick. Please don’t feed his complexes.

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Question:

I’m a high school student, applying to colleges in the Boston area. I plan to major in Accounting, so I’m looking for schools with solid programs. Currently, the top schools I’m considering are Babson College, Boston College, Boston University…and, in a slight "geographical curve ball," St. Joseph’s College in Standish, ME. I was wondering whether anyone here in alt.accounting might have insight into any of these schools, and might be able to offer me some advice. Alternatively, I’d also be interested in reading any other suggestions for schools I should consider (and "why") — although I can’t attend anywhere outside New England. Thanks, in advance. I look forward to reading any replies. — Sarah Jameson

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My dad went to Bentley in Waltham MA.  It’s supposed to be good, and it’s in the Boston area.  Also, UMass/Amherst has a really good annual tax seminar for practitioners that their accounting department runs — perhaps they’d be worth looking into as well. Catherine Grant – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a high school student, applying to colleges in the Boston area. I plan to major in Accounting, so I’m looking for schools with solid programs. Currently, the top schools I’m considering are Babson College, Boston College, Boston University…and, in a slight "geographical curve ball," St. Joseph’s College in Standish, ME. I was wondering whether anyone here in alt.accounting might have insight into any of these schools, and might be able to offer me some advice. Alternatively, I’d also be interested in reading any other suggestions for schools I should consider (and "why") — although I can’t attend anywhere outside New England. Thanks, in advance. I look forward to reading any replies. — Sarah Jameson

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I’m a high school student, applying to colleges in the Boston area. I plan to major in Accounting, so I’m looking for schools with solid programs. Currently, the top schools I’m considering are Babson College, Boston College, Boston University…and, in a slight "geographical curve ball," St. Joseph’s College in Standish, ME.

I would suggest Northeatern Univesity.   To reply remove No spam from my e-mail address. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Question:

\ I know many of you are TU leaders and have already heard this but several here have not.  The almighty US Government is trying to cut the budget for the USGS including the streamgaging and water quality analysis programs.  To me this is with a link to where you can learn more and have easy access to write your congressman.  I’m not trying to start an anti-American thread or anything just trying to get the word out.  If you live in the US we can use your support.  Take a few minutes to stop by\

This is "getting personal", but Bush’s decision today to end the Roadless Initiative,(msnbc.com) and to reduce water quality and Endangered Species Act   standards isn’t? Strange. Also Bush cut the western fire fighting fund by HALF ( this was given by clinton last year).

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The almighty US Government is trying to cut the budget for the USGS including the streamgaging and water quality analysis programs. Interestingly enough, the TU info in the link you provided is fairly inaccurate with respect to the portion of the overall water program cut taken by the streamgaging program.  The TU "alert" states that "streamgaging took a large part of that cut".  Cuts in the Streamgaging Program represent about 11% of the overall water program cut, while cuts in two water quality programs, the National Water Quality Assessment Program and the Toxic Substances Hydrology Research program represent about 68% of the overall cut.  IMO, at least, while the cut in the Streamgaging Program could be significant, it hardly represents a large part" of the overall cut.  I also am somewhat surprised that the TU "alert" does not also identify cuts in the water quality programs as a matter of concern.  Stream flow conditions may be important to anglers; however, water quality is important to fish. For those of you who want to find out more about what the USGS does with respect to water resources, try http://www.usgs.gov/ The summary of the USGS budget for FY2002 can be found at: http://www.usgs.gov/budget/2002/budget_hilite.html My guess is that since the Bush administration seems to be quite interested in supporting natural resource exploration/development/exploitation activities, Federal programs that may yield data that reveal the problems with such activities will be on the short end of the budget allocation process.

Stream gaging has relevance well beyond fishing. It’s a matter of keeping track of where the water is coming from and where it’s going. This is important information for everyone who wants the water–advocates for fish and irrigators alike. It keeps the dam operators honest when they have promised minimum flows. Obviously it’s needed for flood warning. The way it’s done is that the gage keeps a continuous record of the water height. Some of these are more-or-less online. Occasionally somone will come around and make a streamflow measurement. At various flows this is correlated with the gage height to develop what’s called a rating curve. The curve will shift around with changes in the bottom profile. This makes frequent measurements desirable. The continuous record of the gage height and the rating curve are put together to estimate flow totals etc. What the cuts probably mean is that fewer measurements will be made, degrading the accuracy of the curves, maintenance on gages deferred and all those sorts of bad things. I spend a couple of summers 35 years ago when I was in college working for the USGS doing streamgaging in the northwest corner of California. There was an occasion when this old boy was watching us make a measurement and asked us what we were doing. Being young and innocent we gave him the full PR explanation of how and why. After this performance he says "I bet your guys are the sumbitches who want to take all our water and give it to southern Calfornia." Actually we were the sumbitches who were telling the sumbitches in southern Calfornia that there was enough water here to be worth their while taking. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

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Also Bush cut the western fire fighting fund by HALF ( this was given by clinton last year).

After his campaign contributors clear cut the forests there won’t be any need for a fire fighting fund, will there? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Also Bush cut the western fire fighting fund by HALF ( this was given by clinton last year). After his campaign contributors clear cut the forests there won’t be any need for a fire fighting fund, will there?

And it will be nice for Shrub and his buddies that there won’t be stream gauge data to illustrate the detrimental effects they will have wrought upon watersheds. JR

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http://www.sacbee.com/news/projects/environment/20010425.html  Read this.  Excerpts below. Photo gallery Barren trees stand high on a hill in Tahoe National Forest as the sun rises. This burned and barren area is 20 miles north of Truckee, near Cottonwood Creek. (Click photo for larger view in gallery) Bee/Jose M. Osorio Playing with fire Spin on science puts national treasure at risk (Fourth of five parts) By Tom Knudson Bee Staff Writer (Published April 25, 2001) The scientific paper that landed on Tammy Randall-Parker’s desk was thick with jargon and data. But to Randall-Parker, a biologist with the Coconino National Forest in Arizona, it was riveting. Citing an enormous accumulation of vegetation and deadwood in Western forests — the legacy of years of effective federal firefighting — the report by a prestigious team of specialists warned that unless such stands were thinned, they were likely to erupt into flame, threatening a rare, falcon-like bird: the northern goshawk. Randall-Parker felt compelled to act. But when she and others suggested thinning near a goshawk nest, environmentalists protested on the bird’s behalf, stopping the proposal dead. Then came the fire that Randall-Parker feared. "I watched it just explode," she said. The 1996 blaze devoured centuries-old trees as if they were kindling — including the one that cradled the goshawk nest. "There was not a green tree left," she said. "What the scientists said could happen — did happen, right in front of my eyes." Environmental advocacy has long struggled with scientific fact, despite its very basis in science. But in the battle over the majestic conifer forests that blanket much of the West, advocacy is often shoving science aside — and forests, wildlife and human communities are suffering the consequences. Tweaking science to make a point is nothing new for environmental groups. To protect rare species, for example, some groups trot out just those studies — or snippets of studies — that support their view. Some will pick and choose facts that serve their interests in campaigns to create wilderness areas. Misusing forest science is different. It is playing with fire. Not the natural fires that have nourished forests for centuries, but unusually savage ones that jeopardize homes and human lives and can inflict more serious environmental damage than logging. "We’re not sure if some of these burned areas will ever recover their native biological diversity," said Wallace Covington, a professor of forest ecology at Northern Arizona University and a nationally recognized fire scientist. "Certainly, over evolutionary time, new species will emerge. But these are major devastations." Science will never settle all conflict over forest and fire management. But during the past two decades, university, government and industry scientists have written a series of papers published in academic journals and elsewhere that point again and again to the rapid and dangerous accumulation of woody debris in Western forests — and the need for thinning. "There is strong consensus among credible scientists that 100 years of fire suppression has led to a buildup of fuel in Western forests that makes them very susceptible to destructive, unnatural, ecosystem-destroying wildfire," said Neil Sampson, a visiting fellow at the Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies and former chairman of the 1994 National Commission on Wildfire Disasters. "Time is not an ally," he said. Environmental groups aren’t convinced. Where science sees a tinderbox, they see timber sales in disguise. And despite a steep drop in the volume of timber sold from federal forests in recent years, they say the U.S. Forest Service cannot be trusted. "We’re dealing with an agency that — at the district level — is a rogue agency," said Carl Pope, executive director of the Sierra Club, which is backing a "no commercial logging" campaign in Congress. "There are some very good people in the Forest Service," Pope said. "But there are some people who really still think their job is to keep the local mill running." Sampson said it’s just not so. "The idea that thinning the forest is a boondoggle for the timber industry is bizarre," he said. "Much of what needs to be removed isn’t even economically valuable. They are going to spin the science and lose the forest." Wildfire today is inflicting nightmarish wounds — injuries made worse by a failure to heed scientific warnings. For example: * In 1994, Covington and a colleague warned that the Kendrick Mountain Wilderness Area in northern Arizona was so clotted with vegetation, it was ready to explode. "Delay … will only perpetuate fuel buildup and increase the potential for uncontrolled and destructive wildfire," they wrote in a scientific analysis for the Kaibab National Forest. Some thinning was done — but not enough. Last year, a large fire swept through the region, carving an apocalyptic trail of destruction. "What happened is much worse, ecologically, than a clear-cut — much worse," Covington said "And that fire is the future. It’s happening again and again. We’re going to have skeletal landscapes." * Listening to fire and forest scientists, Martha Ketelle pleaded in 1996 for permission to log and thin an incendiary mass of storm-killed timber in California’s Trinity Alps. "This is a true emergency of vast magnitude," Ketelle, then supervisor of the Six Rivers National Forest, wrote to her boss in San Francisco. "It is not a matter of if a fire will occur, but how extensive the damage will be when the fire does occur." Because of an environmental appeal, the project bogged down. Then, in 1999, a fire found its way into the area. It spewed smoke for hundreds of miles, incinerated spotted owl habitat and triggered soil erosion and stream damage in a key salmon-spawning watershed. * Early last year, officials of Santa Fe National Forest in New Mexico urged that dense pine stands near Los Alamos be thinned. "The underlying need is to reduce the potential for large, high intensity crown fires that threaten people, property, wildlife (and) watersheds," they stated in a report. The project was slowed by a lack of funds and by environmental concerns. Last May, the Cerro Grande fire, the largest and most destructive in New Mexico history, erupted in the very area recommended for thinning, damaging or destroying more than 220 structures, including several portable structures at Los Alamos National Laboratory. "Witnessing the Cerro Grande fire is the closest I’ll come to seeing a biblical event in my lifetime," said Bill Armstrong, a forester with the Santa Fe National Forest. "It was unstoppable. Awe-inspiring. Futile. It was not, however, an unpreventable act of God." —- Step into the forest outside Flagstaff, Ariz., and you enter a world of living matchsticks. You see dozens, hundreds, thousands of spindly, stunted ponderosa pines, crowded close together in shadowy thickets — each competing with the others for moisture, soil nutrients and sunlight. It is a much different setting from the one described by E.F. Beale, an explorer who passed through the area in 1858. "We came to a glorious forest of lofty pines," Beale wrote in a journal. "The forest was perfectly open and unencumbered with brush wood, so that the traveling was excellent." What made that 19th century forest spacious was fire. "Frequent surface fires were as important to … forests as sunshine and rain," Thomas Swetnam, director of the University of Arizona’s Tree-Ring Laboratory, told Congress last year. "Indeed, in southwestern ponderosa pine forests, the only natural events more frequent and regular than fire were the changing seasons." Smokey Bear changed all that. Preventing and putting out fires, though, turned forests into thickets. Covington, the fire scientist, has quantified the change. In the Kaibab National Forest in Arizona, he found an area that sprouted 36 to 81 trees per acre in 1876 had grown shaggy and dense with 692 to 1,801 trees per acre by 1994. A 1999 report by the U.S. General Accounting Office concluded: "The most extensive and serious problem (for) national forests in the interior West is the overaccumulation of vegetation. According to the Forest Service, 39 million acres are at high risk" of fire. Not content to lick lightly along the surface of the forest, snapping up grass, brush and small trees, modern-day blazes roar up a staircase of woody debris, leaping high into the forest canopy. Such contemporary "crown fires" burn so hot that they destroy everything from microscopic life in the soil to majestic, old-growth trees that have been nourished by centuries of cooler fires. "The fires we are experiencing now — and I’ve been in this business 27 years — are unlike anything we have experienced in this country before," said Paul Summerfelt, a fuel management officer with the Flagstaff fire department. "And this is just the beginning." —- — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also Bush cut the western fire fighting fund by HALF ( this was given by clinton last year). After his campaign contributors clear cut the forests there won’t be any need for a fire fighting fund, will there? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Interesting post. Bu I don’t get it. First Montana was pissed because they didn’t have enough emergency funds for the fires. Now that Bush has cut the funds clinton has given in half, they are ok with it? Getting burned by timber Chad Hanson – For the Boulder Camera In the wake of the fires in New Mexico, the timber industry is mobilizing its P.R. machine to try to convince the public of the need to increase logging on our national forests, supposedly to protect them from catastrophic fires. To imagine timber executives sitting around their quarterly board meetings talking about the pressing need to save forests is to realize the absurdity of this posturing. The U.S. Forest Service is now parroting this doublespeak, using it as a means to sell huge volumes of public timber to logging corporations under the guise of "forest stewardship." The truth is that commercial logging doesn’t prevent catastrophic fires, it causes them. The 1996 scientific study of the Sierra Nevada forests, which was commissioned and funded by Congress, found that "timber harvest, through its effects on forest structure, local microclimate and fuel accumulation, has increased fire severity more than any other recent human activity." Another Forest Service report, "Forest Resources of the United States" (1994), revealed that tree mortality in the West due to both fire and disease increases in logged areas. The worst rates were on private lands where logging levels are highest and where the least natural forest remains. For example, in western forests from 1986 to 1991, mortality due to fire and disease on private lands increased 20 percent, while it increased only 3 percent on national forests and decreased 9 percent on other public lands. Logging makes forests more susceptible to both fire and disease. Forests that have been logged are drier, have less shade and have accumulated flammable debris known as "slash piles" comprising unsaleable branches and limbs left by logging crews. Fires tend to start in logged areas and occasionally spread into old-growth stands, which are naturally fire-resistant due to the thick bark of older trees. If a fire does kill an old-growth stand, the burned trees still provide valuable nesting habitat for birds of prey and countless other forest species. Wildlife has little use for stumps. In April 1999, the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO), a federal department that often watchdogs agencies at the request of congressional leaders, released a report on the Forest Service’s approach to fire management, calling into serious question the use of the timber sales program to address fire issues. The GAO noted that "most of the trees that need to be removed to reduce accumulated fuels are small in diameter and have little or no commercial value." The report nevertheless found that Forest Service managers "tend to (1) focus on areas with high-value commercial timber rather than on areas with high fire hazards or (2) include more large, commercially valuable trees in a timber sale than are necessary to reduce the accumulated fuels." The "low-value materials," said the GAO, "are unattractive to timber purchasers." So much for the timber industry’s rhetoric about "thinning understory brush." In fact, the Forest Service’s own documents state that it fights fires not to protect forest ecosystems, but rather to prevent burns from reducing the commodity value of trees that the agency intends to sell to logging companies. It’s all about economics, not ecology. Former Forest Service Chief Jack Ward Thomas candidly acknowledged this in 1994: "Relatively high levels of mortality in an area from which you do not expect to extract timber, for example, might be perfectly acceptable. … For example, to isolate Yellowstone [as an example] … it burns up; it burns hot, and the system that’s associated with it comes back. We didn’t want anything from it. It’s perfectly OK. It’s a national park. It’s interesting, and we can observe the wildflowers, and it’s beautiful." Our national forests will never be safe from the logging industry’s deceptions until we end the federal timber sales program, and redirect current timber subsidies into ecological restoration jobs, as HR 1396, the National Forest Protection and Restoration Act, would do. Future generations will thank us. <http://www.bouldernews.com/opinion/editorials/chad.html The Best Way to Fight Fires? Set More By Rob Taylor – Washington Post Sunday, May 21, 2000; Page B02 Even as firefighters battle the "controlled burn" that escaped to rage through Los Alamos and 50,000 acres of New Mexico land, the U.S. Forest Service is preparing to recommend a tenfold increase in the government’s prescribed burning program. The timing is unfortunate, even bizarre. But there is compelling evidence that despite its inherent risks, prescribed burning is the right thing to do. In order to minimize future tragedies in the forests and towns of the West, we need more controlled burns–a lot more. The Forest Service proposal, contained in a draft report to Congress being reviewed by Clinton administration officials, is the culmination of a historic reversal in the agency’s policies, an admission that its longtime practice of stamping out all fires has more than failed, it has backfired. Without fires to thin them out, certain kinds of forests have grown so dense that wildfires burn unnaturally hot, causing ecological decline, risking lives and driving up the costs of firefighting and property damage. These forests–the ponderosa pinelands that are the most common forests in the Western United States–need fire in order to thrive. To understand why, consider their ecology. In its natural state, the ponderosa pine forest consists mostly of big trees, widely separated; early settlers in the West wrote of driving wagons through the forest without touching a tree. In those days, fires swept frequently across these forests–every five to 15 years on a typical plot. Most were started by lightning, but a relatively small number were set by Native Americans–and, later, white settlers–to stimulate growth of new grass for livestock or keep vistas open for hunting. These "light" fires kept down what forest experts call "fuel levels"–the fallen branches, small trees and underbrush that catch fire easily and spread flames. And they did little damage to mature ponderosas, which are shielded by their thick, asbestos-like bark. That natural cycle was broken shortly after the Forest Service was created in 1905. Within a few years, the agency had established a policy of trying to suppress all forest fires. Its pervasive view, one that mascot Smokey Bear later conveyed to generations of American children, was that forest fires were dangerous, destructive and preventable. The agency built "Ponderosa Way," a Maginot Line of lookouts, roads and firebreaks meant to hold back fires along the face of the Sierra Nevada. From 1935 to 1978, it had a "10 a.m. policy," with a goal of controlling any wildfire on federal lands by that time the next day. Bolstered by armies of smoke jumpers, bulldozers, helicopters and flame-retardant bombers, the Forest Service succeeded at fire suppression for half a century. In the 1970s, the policy faltered. While wildfires were kept under a million acres a year between 1945 and 1977, after that the burned acreage rose sharply–to more than a million acres in 17 of the next 20 years, sometimes topping 2 million or even 3 million. Spending on firefighting manpower and technology had increased, so what was going wrong? Drought was a factor; but mostly, scientists now say, the forests had changed. Those pine forests, spared from fire, filled up with brush and other species of trees. In the forests around Los Alamos, according to Wallace Covington, a professor of forest ecology at Northern Arizona University, there were 20 to 55 trees per acre a century ago; there are 300 to 900 today. Crowding made the trees vulnerable to disease, insect pests and drought. Medium-sized trees formed a "ladder" to carry low flames up to the canopy of big ponderosa pines, where the branches were vulnerable. And, unlike the ponderosa pine, many of these smaller species could not withstand even light fires. Timber management often added to forest flammability. Loggers cut down big, fire-resistant pines and left inferior trees standing; they left branches and discarded treetops on the ground. These thicker, sicker forests began producing bigger, scarier wildfires. Washington state’s 1994 Tyee Creek Fire (started by lightning), for instance, spawned thousand-foot-tall tornadoes of flame, spread faster than a man can run, generated gale-force winds, drove firefighters before it like quail and slowed only when it ran out of dry fuel. It blackened 140,000 acres, vaporized essential nutrients, primed the hills for floods and mudslides, and left a $65 million bill for fighting fire and restoring the land. Unlike the lodgepole pines of Yellowstone National Park, which burned spectacularly in 1988, ponderosa pine forests were not naturally prone to such hot, damaging fires. Their new explosiveness changed the nature of firefighting. "It used to be 10,000 to 20,000 acres was a huge fire. Now it’s not unusual to see a 100,000-acre fire," says Mike Hilbruner, a Forest Service fire ecologist. This is a major issue in the interior West, where such fires threaten not only forests, but also native plants, fish and wildlife, residents, firefighters, homes in rural areas–and towns. Los Alamos is not the first town to be invaded by wildfire from forest or brush lands. In recent years, towns in Washington, Oregon, Florida, Colorado, Michigan and California have seen wildfires roar through residential areas. The brush-fueled 1991 … read more »

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The almighty US Government is trying to cut the budget for the USGS including the streamgaging and water quality analysis programs.

Interestingly enough, the TU info in the link you provided is fairly inaccurate with respect to the portion of the overall water program cut taken by the streamgaging program.  The TU "alert" states that "streamgaging took a large part of that cut".  Cuts in the Streamgaging Program represent about 11% of the overall water program cut, while cuts in two water quality programs, the National Water Quality Assessment Program and the Toxic Substances Hydrology Research program represent about 68% of the overall cut.  IMO, at least, while the cut in the Streamgaging Program could be significant, it hardly represents a large part" of the overall cut.  I also am somewhat surprised that the TU "alert" does not also identify cuts in the water quality programs as a matter of concern.  Stream flow conditions may be important to anglers; however, water quality is important to fish. For those of you who want to find out more about what the USGS does with respect to water resources, try http://www.usgs.gov/ The summary of the USGS budget for FY2002 can be found at: http://www.usgs.gov/budget/2002/budget_hilite.html My guess is that since the Bush administration seems to be quite interested in supporting natural resource exploration/development/exploitation activities, Federal programs that may yield data that reveal the problems with such activities will be on the short end of the budget allocation process.

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<cut & pasted from a list serve… I know many of you are TU leaders and have already heard this but several here have not.  The almighty US Government is trying to cut the budget for the USGS including the streamgaging and water quality analysis programs.  To me this is with a link to where you can learn more and have easy access to write your congressman.  I’m not trying to start an anti-American thread or anything just trying to get the word out.  If you live in the US we can use your support.  Take a few minutes to stop by http://capwiz.com/tu/issues/alert/?alertid=16435&type=CO and learn more.  They have a section to put in your zip code to get a pre written letter to send to your congressmen.  If you depend on the USGS stream flow data please take action!!!!!! Take Care!! — Scott Cunningham http://wnctrout.com – Guide to public trout water in WNC!!!

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If I truly believe that gov’t is too big and tries to do to much, I must fairly apply that principle to programs that even "help" me.

I gotta say, the logic of that escapes me.   Across the board reductions are pointless IMHO.   To me, it’s not how much the gov’t spends, it’s where it spends it.   Better to target the "useless" programs; and to me that defines as "those I disagree with".   Stuff I like should be fully funded, stuff I don’t like should be eliminated completely. Frankly, having the federal government spend 10’s of millions of dollars for streamgages whose most practical use is for a few trout fishermen is not that important, to me. I think we can be rest assured that the most streamgages, and especially those that have multiple practical uses for things such as water allocation, irrigation, etc., will continue to be supported. For those out of the way places that are less important, while it would be nice for us fishermen to have instant flow access, I must say that I don’t see it as important enough to spend tax dollars.

Those out of the way gauges are all part of the big picture.   When the stream gauge in a populated area hits the flood stage, it’s useful info to know where the hell all that water came from; and it came from smaller, out of the way streams.   I have a more Mid-Atlantic population center perspective, I admit; but everytime a field is turned into housing or industrial development around here, it changes the flow characteristic of nearby streams.   In more wilderness settings, I’d expect a similar result from forest fires, clearcuts, etc.   IMHO, stream gauge info is a useful measure of those effects, as well as other environmental measures. Joe F.

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Question:

Perhaps I haven’t been paying attention, but it would seem to me that I almost never hear of fire/explosion accidents associated with propane usage on boats.  I do hear of alcohol-related accidents, however.  And propane has persisted as a cooking fuel while CNG (compressed natural gas) has come and gone.

Rightf. I was living in the U.S. Virgins when CNG was brought out and it had two big drawbacks. 1. The tank was about the same size as a dive tank and just as heavy and didn’t provide many hours of cooking, thus requirering several tanks for a short charter. 2. The availability of having the tanks filled or exchanged for full ones was a real problem. I think a CNG tank would last a charterer about week or less whereas a small 10lb propane tank would go about five weeks. The fact that the natural gas of CNG was lighter than air and thus less likely to ‘leak’ into the bilge and explode if set off wasn’t enough insentive to make the switch. And of course, even natural gas will blow you up if leaked into a closed boat and lit off. Most small countries use propane because it is readily available and because it is easy to transport without the routing of complex underground gas systems, and cheap. Although I haven’t been all over the world, I’ve been in some pretty remote places and never had a problem having a tank filled and in an emergency have borrowed a tank from another cruiser and partially filled mine using a pig-tail adapter. IMHO more fires are started and damage done by alcohol stoves than any other fuel used on boats. I don’t think I’ve ever run into a cruiser outside the u.s. that used alcohol to cook with. — dry decks, pm Before you buy.

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Most small countries use propane because it is readily available and because it is easy to transport without the routing of complex underground gas systems, and cheap. Although I haven’t been all over the world, I’ve been in some pretty remote places and never had a problem having a tank filled and in an emergency have borrowed a tank from another cruiser and partially filled mine using a pig-tail adapter.

Some countries don’t seem to have much or any LPG, but they do have butane, which can be used, I’m told, with very minor modifications to the supply system.  It doesn’t provide quite the BTU output of propane, but works well, nonetheless. IMHO more fires are started and damage done by alcohol stoves than any other fuel used on boats. I don’t think I’ve ever run into a cruiser outside the u.s. that used alcohol to cook with.

I believe that with the advent of non-pressurized alcohol (ie–Origo stoves) the tendency to use alcohol has increased somewhat, but for convenience propane seems to reign.  I never minded my Origo stove–liked it, in fact–but if I were operating a charter fleet, I’d be very reluctant to allow incompetent charterers (don’t get me started on this–a whole other thread) to handle cooking fuel, beyond flipping on a power switch and a solenoid control, and lighting a propane burner. Jeff

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most small countries use propane because it is readily available and because it is easy to transport without the routing of complex underground gas systems, and cheap. Although I haven’t been all over the world, I’ve been in some pretty remote places and never had a problem having a tank filled and in an emergency have borrowed a tank from another cruiser and partially filled mine using a pig-tail adapter. Some countries don’t seem to have much or any LPG, but they do have butane, which can be used, I’m told, with very minor modifications to the supply system.  It doesn’t provide quite the BTU output of propane, but works well, nonetheless.

If you try India, through the MIddle East to the Med, LPG can be awkward to get, and alcohol almost impossible, due to the Islamic culture. Kerosene is everywhere, and very cheap. The preheat question is a bit of a problem though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IMHO more fires are started and damage done by alcohol stoves than any other fuel used on boats. I don’t think I’ve ever run into a cruiser outside the u.s. that used alcohol to cook with. I believe that with the advent of non-pressurized alcohol (ie–Origo stoves) the tendency to use alcohol has increased somewhat, but for convenience propane seems to reign.  I never minded my Origo stove–liked it, in fact–but if I were operating a charter fleet, I’d be very reluctant to allow incompetent charterers (don’t get me started on this–a whole other thread) to handle cooking fuel, beyond flipping on a power switch and a solenoid control, and lighting a propane burner.

Charter boat use propane for convenience more than safety, I’d think. As far as the charter is concerned, it is just like being at home. rying to explain how to use an liquid fuel stove would be near impossible in a five minute briefing with no practice. For a week at a time using LPG makes for a very small health risk, living with it 12 months of the year is a different matter. — PyroJames Where I like, when I like, in whatever I like to wear. Before you buy.

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The bottom line is that propane is by far the most popular fuel used on cruising  boats, including charter  boats, thus leaving us to believe that the charter companies believe it can be safely handled by relative novices to the systems and are safe in doing so.

Perhaps I haven’t been paying attention, but it would seem to me that I almost never hear of fire/explosion accidents associated with propane usage on boats.  I do hear of alcohol-related accidents, however.  And propane has persisted as a cooking fuel while CNG (compressed natural gas) has come and gone. Jeff

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During my cruise this summer, I saw a solution that some Canadian boats in the Gulf of St Lawrence had adopted, practical but not aesthetic: the propane tanks were simply strapped to the stern pulpit. As far as I’m concerned, I’ll stick to kerosene – fire extinguishers are plentiful and cheap, but I’ve still got to see an explosion extinguisher…

The bottom line is that propane is by far the most popular fuel used on cruising  boats, including charter  boats, thus leaving us to believe that the charter companies believe it can be safely handled by relative novices to the systems and are safe in doing so. dry decks, pm Before you buy.

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Craig, Are you saying that you can’t find a place for at least a 1 gal container of propane on an Ericson 32? I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.

When you say "extra system requirements" what do you mean? Is this a cost consideration? All you need is a pressure regulator and a fuel cutoff solenoid valve. Propane has a very high BTU value, much more than alchohol and certainty more that CNG (natural gas). You can buy propane anywhere in the world. I had an old Morgan Out Island years ago with an alcohol stove and it was a pain to continously worry about carrying enough alcohol. The only positive thing that can be said about an alcohol stove is that if the flame gets out of hand you can just toss some water on it and the flame will go out. What are your saling plans? Are you going to do some extensive cruising or just hang out at the dock and take a cruise for a day or two? It would be helpfull to the group to know more about how your are going to use the stove. I converted a CNG stove once to propane because I went sailing in Mex where you can’t even get CNG. As I recall it cost abot $500 for the conversion which I thought was a good deal for never having to worry about fuel for cooking. Jerry S/V Pelleas Before you buy.

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Are you saying that you can’t find a place for at least a 1 gal container of propane

I guess I’ve never seen "a 1 gal container of propane". When you say "extra system requirements" what do you mean?

A safe(r) propane installation includes one or more tanks (aluminum tanks being quite a bit more expensive), plus an airtight locker with an overboard drain, plus a manual turnoff valve, plus a regulator, plus an electric solenoid shutoff valve, plus a single piece of tubing from the solenoid to the stove, plus a propane sniffer in the bilge and any other space where fumes can collect. At least those were the "extra system requirements" I found were needed for a 31 foot boat I was considering, said boat having a very crusty kerosene stove. The extra space requirements (not to mention the cost) made the Origo VERY attractive.  (The Origo stove was a-bolt-it-in-place-fill-the-canisters-and-cook thing.)  Two gallon cans of alcohol would take up less space than the old kero tank.  Talking with long-term cruisers, I heard that two gallons of fuel would last from a (minimum) month to (much more likely) three months to (maybe) six months.   Two gallons of propane has about the same btu content as three gallons of alcohol. Two gallons of propane in a propane tank weighs much more and takes up much more space than three gallons of alcohol in tin cans or plastic containers.

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We used 3 gal. of alcohol/month when we were cruising with that lousy fuel.When we switched to propane we used maybe 1-20# bottle in 2 months or so. No filling, no priming, NO SMELL. Can you tell which fuel we like better? We have the 2 20# bottles mounted on the aft deck, out in the open.1  hooked to the propane grill. I’ve cruised with alcohol, kero, and propane and propane is my choice

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During my cruise this summer, I saw a solution that some Canadian boats in the Gulf of St Lawrence had adopted, practical but not aesthetic: the propane tanks were simply strapped to the stern pulpit. As far as I’m concerned, I’ll stick to kerosene – fire extinguishers are plentiful and cheap, but I’ve still got to see an explosion extinguisher… john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We used 3 gal. of alcohol/month when we were cruising with that lousy fuel.When we switched to propane we used maybe 1-20# bottle in 2 months or so. No filling, no priming, NO SMELL. Can you tell which fuel we like better? We have the 2 20# bottles mounted on the aft deck, out in the open.1  hooked to the propane grill. I’ve cruised with alcohol, kero, and propane and propane is my choice

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My experience with the Origo also is different.  I have been satisfied with my Origo 6000.  In my experience a pot of water for coffee boils in 6 to 10 minutes, depending on the size.  Most cooking is done at lower heat so cooking times from other stoves won’t differ.  The flame is concentrated but a good pan spreads the heat.  I cook pancakes a lot.  They come out like I cook them at home.  My burners last for more than a couple ours.  When I am out for several weeks or longer, I think I fill the burners every 7 to 8 days but that is from memory. Oder is a problem without ventilation.  Also the oven is a bit small. Carl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Hello Todd, I have been using an Origo stove only for almost 2 years now, and couldn’t be happier. It will indeed boil water (qt. or so) in about 6 mins. or so–I’ve never actually timed it to the second. I highly recommend the Origo stove. I really enjoy the freedom from LP and pressured alcohol. On the olther hand, I’m not familiar with the oven–in fact, I didn’t even know that they make an oven. Best Regards, Roberto Sonnenberger s/v Mare Nostrum – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough.  I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems?  I’d like to hear from anyone who has actually used one, not just anecdotal evidence please.  Also, how well does the oven work?  Thank you in advance, Todd Craig E32-2 Zealous

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I have a somewhat different experience. I have an Origo 3000 in my Pearson, and I didn’t feel that the time it took to boil water for coffee was excessive at all. I timed it last time I was on the boat and it took just over 10 minutes. I can’t account for the discrepancy, but that’s my experience. I don’t find it a big problem to fill the tanks, either. I do agree about the odor – if I could change that, I’d be completely happy with this solution. I’ve used propane stoves and I agree they were faster, but I’m satisfied with the Origo. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Every once in awhile this topic pops up in this forum and I feel compelled to offer my two cents.  First, I grew up on larger sailboats all of which had propane to cook with, so I am probably completely biased BUT… I had an Origo non-pressurized alcohol stove aboard my 27′ sailboat.  Although yes, it DOES work, I find it to be (a) slow, (b) smelly, and (c) a pain where the sun don’t shine to refill.  Okay, before I get flamed, here’s why.  Every morning I get up and make coffee.  About 1-1/2 quarts in my little coffee pot takes over 20 minutes to boil.  Now I know that lots of these posts quote the manufacturer’s literature that says 6-8 minutes per quart but it ain’t so.  Another thing that sucks about these stoves is that the heat is concentrated, i.e. one large flame in the center of your pot.  Ever tried to make pancakes on this type of burner?  I have:  black in the middle, doughy on the outside.  I purchased a metal diffuser and tried using thick cast-iron pans but the result varied little. The smell.  Incomplete combustion of the alcohol yields acetaldehyde, which stings your eyes and quickly makes your throat raw.  If it’s sunny and you’ve got the hatches wide open, hey, no big deal.  If not, well… Refilling.  Ah, the best part.  Lots of people say "Oh, and they are so simple to refill."  Ya, and shovelling coal is pretty easy too.  Here’s the thing:  the burners only burn for a few hours on a fill.  So you are either tremendously conscientious about filling them up regularly (read remove entire top of stove, remove burner, SLOOOOOWWWWLLLY fill with little cup (it is a sponge), then replace parts) or you run into the situation where you run out during cooking.  In the rain.  Hmmm…. how do we (a) remove hot stove top then (b) remove hot burner and (c) take outside to fill from jug of alcohol in cockpit locker while standing in the rain, hoping the damn burner has cooled enough not to explode when the alcohol hits it, listening to your wife "remind" you of "how you should have filled it before you started like she told you." Anyway, I find them inconvenient.  Propane is quick, hot, easy to adjust, does not smell, just like home.  Yes it does cost more but in my opinion it’s worth it. Dave Spear s/v "Jack" Vancouver, BC CANADA Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough.  I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems? If you’re at all serious about cooking, don’t get the alcohol stove.  They’re slow, hard to control, and a real pain to refill.  The fuel has a very low flashpoint, and refilling the burners is not only a pain, but quite dangerous as well.  Really needs to be done in the cockpit, which is not fun in the rain or under way. But if all that doesn’t bother you, the smell probably will.  The sickeningly sweet odor of acetaldehyde (from incomplete combusion of the ethyl alcohol) is a constant when using these stoves, and it makes cooking less than pleasant.  I used one (without the oven) for four years of multi-week cruises, and hated it. That said, if you’re only going to cook the occasional meal, or heat water for coffee, the convenience is hard to beat. Steve Christensen —     )   Mmmmm…. coffee                )    ((   David Spear                    ((   `–’                                `–’

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Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough.  I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems?  I’d like to hear from anyone who has actually used one, not just anecdotal evidence please.  Also, how well does the oven work?  Thank you in advance, Todd Craig E32-2 Zealous

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Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough.

Yep, this is the great complaint from anti-alcohol cookers. However not one has ever held his hand over the burner and complained….. It may take somewhat longer to cook some dishes, but then we use a pressure cooker a lot and don’t notice the difference. If you use a frying pan or wok it is a great stove that cooks every bit as fast as anything else.  ……  I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems?

We’ve used several different alcohol stoves over the years and feel that the wick types (non-pressurized, as is the Origo) are the best. The main drawback is that you cannot tell how much fuel is in the burner pot, and have to wait a few minutes for it to cool before refueling. I am in the habit of only putting in as much fuel as I think is needed to cook whatever is on the menu, and have gotten pretty good at judging exactly how much it takes to make a pot of cofee. Another complaint is that it’s hard to tell when the burner is succesfully lit, but this becomes a knack after a few uses. Yet one more is the cost of the fuel. However if you buy denatured alcohol in the paint thinner section of a hardware store, it costs 1/3 as much as stove fuel and is exactly the same thing minus the perfume. I’d like to hear from anyone who has actually used one, not just anecdotal evidence please.  Also, how well does the oven work?

Couldn’t say. We don’t have an oven, but we do make bread in the pressure cooker. Fresh Brezes- Doug King — This is what we look like when we’re at our best: http://recboats.hsh.com/45.htm

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I have an Origo stove since 1983 and I like it very well.  It still looks and works like new. I use wood Alcohol at about $7.00 Cdn. per 4 Liters.  When in the US I buy the wood alcohol at trucks stop for about $2-3.00 per US gallon. Grain alcohol produces more BTU’s but I find it too marginal.  The ingredient mixed with the grain alcohol to render it unfit to human consumption produces too much sooth and the pots gets black.  Not to mention that you may not be getting grain alcohol??? I had a propane stove with a pressure regulator and the Btu’s are not as good as with an outdoor propane camping stove without a pressure regulator. In a boat, it is mandatory that you have a propane pressure regulator.  I find that the time it takes to boil water on the Origo takes a little more time than on a pressure regulated propane stove but not worth talking about. If you live aboard and do long distances,because its more readily available worldwide, propane at this time, is the fuel of choice.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough.  I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems?  I’d like to hear from anyone who has actually used one, not just anecdotal evidence please.  Also, how well does the oven work?  Thank you in advance, Todd Craig E32-2 Zealous

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Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough.

If you check Deja News about two years back, you’ll find an extensive thread on this exact topic.  That said, the complaint of inadequate heat is the quintessential one with respect to the old fermented corn squeezins’.  The boat we just sold had an Origo two-burner stove, and we liked it just fine. Cooking was delayed only slightly compared with propane, but never a problem.  We, like another responder, used a pressure cooker, which is the great equalizer.  That same responder reported using denatured alcohol from the hardware store–okay provided you have good ventilation.  Acetone is typically used as the denaturing agent–if you have problems with that, you might be well-advised to buy cooking alcohol, as we did.  It was not that expensive to use, in my accounting of things. I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems?

None of which I’m aware.  Ours worked flawlessly and it was about as simple as a stove could be.  If you follow the KISS principle, you’ll love an Origo. I’d like to hear from anyone who has actually used one, not just anecdotal evidence please.  Also, how well does the oven work?

Well, ya got me there, padner.  I wasn’t aware that Origo made an oven, but I’m not surprised.  I’d definintely be more inclined to equip a boat with a non-pressurized stove and oven over propane, even if cost were not an object. As an afterthought, we purchased a single-burner Origo to use as a table-top burner for home use when serving larger buffet dinners.  As expected, it functions simply and flawlessly.  Our guests all want to know where they can buy one.  I hand them the West Marine catalog. Jeff

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I have never had trouble determining if it’s lit or not…..just holding my hand over it for a short time usually does the trick.  Course, if the potatoes don’t come to boil in the 1st half hour, I check to see if it’s gone out. I am about to convert to propane from pressurized alcohol.  My previous boat had non pressurized alcohol and it worked fine.  If my current boat had non pressurized alcohol I’d probably stick with it.  The pressurized alcohol stove isn’t working the best, and given that some day I may wish to sell the boat and move up, I am going with the "popular" choice.  Cost of alcohol or availability of propane isn’t a concern. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough. Yep, this is the great complaint from anti-alcohol cookers. However not one has ever held his hand over the burner and complained….. It may take somewhat longer to cook some dishes, but then we use a pressure cooker a lot and don’t notice the difference. If you use a frying pan or wok it is a great stove that cooks every bit as fast as anything else.  ……  I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems? We’ve used several different alcohol stoves over the years and feel that the wick types (non-pressurized, as is the Origo) are the best. The main drawback is that you cannot tell how much fuel is in the burner pot, and have to wait a few minutes for it to cool before refueling. I am in the habit of only putting in as much fuel as I think is needed to cook whatever is on the menu, and have gotten pretty good at judging exactly how much it takes to make a pot of cofee. Another complaint is that it’s hard to tell when the burner is succesfully lit, but this becomes a knack after a few uses. Yet one more is the cost of the fuel. However if you buy denatured alcohol in the paint thinner section of a hardware store, it costs 1/3 as much as stove fuel and is exactly the same thing minus the perfume. I’d like to hear from anyone who has actually used one, not just anecdotal evidence please.  Also, how well does the oven work? Couldn’t say. We don’t have an oven, but we do make bread in the pressure cooker. Fresh Brezes- Doug King — This is what we look like when we’re at our best: http://recboats.hsh.com/45.htm

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John; I ordered the burners, but I don’t have Nigel’s book.  Could you explain the right method for installing the washers? Thanks! — Paul VandenBosch The Guide to Sailing and Cruising Stories: http://cruisenews.net Before you buy.

Response:

Every once in awhile this topic pops up in this forum and I feel compelled to offer my two cents.  First, I grew up on larger sailboats all of which had propane to cook with, so I am probably completely biased BUT… I had an Origo non-pressurized alcohol stove aboard my 27′ sailboat.  Although yes, it DOES work, I find it to be (a) slow, (b) smelly, and (c) a pain where the sun don’t shine to refill.  Okay, before I get flamed, here’s why.  Every morning I get up and make coffee.  About 1-1/2 quarts in my little coffee pot takes over 20 minutes to boil.  Now I know that lots of these posts quote the manufacturer’s literature that says 6-8 minutes per quart but it ain’t so.  Another thing that sucks about these stoves is that the heat is concentrated, i.e. one large flame in the center of your pot.  Ever tried to make pancakes on this type of burner?  I have:  black in the middle, doughy on the outside.  I purchased a metal diffuser and tried using thick cast-iron pans but the result varied little. The smell.  Incomplete combustion of the alcohol yields acetaldehyde, which stings your eyes and quickly makes your throat raw.  If it’s sunny and you’ve got the hatches wide open, hey, no big deal.  If not, well… Refilling.  Ah, the best part.  Lots of people say "Oh, and they are so simple to refill."  Ya, and shovelling coal is pretty easy too.  Here’s the thing:  the burners only burn for a few hours on a fill.  So you are either tremendously conscientious about filling them up regularly (read remove entire top of stove, remove burner, SLOOOOOWWWWLLLY fill with little cup (it is a sponge), then replace parts) or you run into the situation where you run out during cooking.  In the rain.  Hmmm…. how do we (a) remove hot stove top then (b) remove hot burner and (c) take outside to fill from jug of alcohol in cockpit locker while standing in the rain, hoping the damn burner has cooled enough not to explode when the alcohol hits it, listening to your wife "remind" you of "how you should have filled it before you started like she told you." Anyway, I find them inconvenient.  Propane is quick, hot, easy to adjust, does not smell, just like home.  Yes it does cost more but in my opinion it’s worth it. Dave Spear s/v "Jack" Vancouver, BC CANADA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough.  I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems? If you’re at all serious about cooking, don’t get the alcohol stove.  They’re slow, hard to control, and a real pain to refill.  The fuel has a very low flashpoint, and refilling the burners is not only a pain, but quite dangerous as well.  Really needs to be done in the cockpit, which is not fun in the rain or under way. But if all that doesn’t bother you, the smell probably will.  The sickeningly sweet odor of acetaldehyde (from incomplete combusion of the ethyl alcohol) is a constant when using these stoves, and it makes cooking less than pleasant.  I used one (without the oven) for four years of multi-week cruises, and hated it. That said, if you’re only going to cook the occasional meal, or heat water for coffee, the convenience is hard to beat. Steve Christensen

–     )   Mmmmm…. coffee                )    ((   David Spear                    ((   `–’                                `–’

Response:

If you’re at all serious about cooking, don’t get the alcohol stove. They’re slow, hard to control, and a real pain to refill.  The fuel has a very low flashpoint, and refilling the burners is not only a pain, but quite dangerous as well.  Really needs to be done in the cockpit, which is not fun in the rain or under way.

The above comments apply only to a pressurized alcohol stove, not to the non-pressurized Origo stoves.  They are easy to fill, perfectly safe, and can be refilled in the cabin. But if all that doesn’t bother you, the smell probably will.  The sickeningly sweet odor of acetaldehyde (from incomplete combusion of the ethyl alcohol) is a constant when using these stoves, and it makes cooking less than pleasant. I used one (without the oven) for four years of multi-week cruises, and

hated it. The odor of alcohol stoves is objectionable.  But the alternatives (propane, kerosene) are most costly and less safe. That said, if you’re only going to cook the occasional meal, or heat water for coffee, the convenience is hard to beat.

Dunno ’bout that.  It’s pretty darned easy to flip on the solenoid, and turn on the burner of a propane stove. Jeff

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough.  I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems?  I’d like to hear from anyone who has actually used one, not just anecdotal evidence please.  Also, how well does the oven work?  Thank you in advance, Todd Craig E32-2 Zealous

I’ve cooked on the propane stove in my boat and an Origo in a friend’s.  I find no particular difference in cooking time. Other people I personally know who have done the same, say the same.

Response:

Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough.  I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems?  

If you’re at all serious about cooking, don’t get the alcohol stove.  They’re slow, hard to control, and a real pain to refill.  The fuel has a very low flashpoint, and refilling the burners is not only a pain, but quite dangerous as well.  Really needs to be done in the cockpit, which is not fun in the rain or under way. But if all that doesn’t bother you, the smell probably will.  The sickeningly sweet odor of acetaldehyde (from incomplete combusion of the ethyl alcohol) is a constant when using these stoves, and it makes cooking less than pleasant.  I used one (without the oven) for four years of multi-week cruises, and hated it. That said, if you’re only going to cook the occasional meal, or heat water for coffee, the convenience is hard to beat. Steve Christensen

Response:

Paul, the Defender’s 2000 catalog lists on page 98 "Force 10 ‘diesel’ It’s from them that I got mine four years ago. So the price by A & H with whom I have dealt before is a bit on the high side. Also be careful that they don’t flog you alcohol jets (they sent me two burners with alcohol jets – 0.5 mm opening vs 0.3 mm opening for kerosene). The installation is a bit fiddly as you’ve got to hold the base of the burner – 19 mm wrench – on one side of the stove whilst you tighten the base – 25 or 1" wrench (can’t remember which)- on the other side and put the washers in the correct place. Nigel Calder recommends copper wahers – 14 and 16 mm- over the "asbestos" ones.  One "modification" I made was to wind a ring of 1" dia "heat insulation" rope around the base of the burner to prevent the preheating alcohol from slopping around and heating up everything except the burner…That way, the alcohol "wicks" into the rope and heats the burner nicely. The only other problem I’ve had with the stove is that the rods of the control knobs (not in brass) rusted thru and I had to make new ones out of copper refrigeration tubing – not very satisfactory. Apart from that, I’m quite happy with the stove. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t know about smells in the non-pressurized alcohol stoves, but the pressurized alcohol "Optimus Princess" had too much of it for my wife’s and my nostrils. So I just took the burners out and put in kerosene burners. They don’t smell unless something is wrong with the jets and give a good strong flame (hotter than propane); I make bread in a  SS folding Coleman oven which I put on top of one of the burners. john John; I have been thinking about converting my Optimus Princess alcohol stove to kerosene.  A&H Enterprises of California will recondition my stove for about $50 plus parts, and convert it to kerosene burners for an additional $150 for the two burners. Are you satisfied with your stove as a kerosene stove?  Where did you get your parts?  Does the cost quoted by A&H sound reasonable? This is a difficult decision and I am going around and around between leaving it as an alcohol stove, converting to kerosene, and getting a Dickinson diesel stove, which would also be a heater for the boat. I never cared too much for the alcohol because it is smelly and I have to put the washboards in the boat when it is windy, the flame almost blows out.  On kerosene backpacking stoves that I have had, the flame is very hot, strong and stable and wouldn’t go out in the wind. — Paul VandenBosch The Guide to Sailing and Cruising Stories: http://cruisenews.net Before you buy.

Response:

Don’t know about smells in the non-pressurized alcohol stoves, but the pressurized alcohol "Optimus Princess" had too much of it for my wife’s and my nostrils. So I just took the burners out and put in kerosene burners. They don’t smell unless something is wrong with the jets and give a good strong flame (hotter than propane); I make bread in a  SS folding Coleman oven which I put on top of one of the burners. john

John; I have been thinking about converting my Optimus Princess alcohol stove to kerosene.  A&H Enterprises of California will recondition my stove for about $50 plus parts, and convert it to kerosene burners for an additional $150 for the two burners. Are you satisfied with your stove as a kerosene stove?  Where did you get your parts?  Does the cost quoted by A&H sound reasonable? This is a difficult decision and I am going around and around between leaving it as an alcohol stove, converting to kerosene, and getting a Dickinson diesel stove, which would also be a heater for the boat. I never cared too much for the alcohol because it is smelly and I have to put the washboards in the boat when it is windy, the flame almost blows out.  On kerosene backpacking stoves that I have had, the flame is very hot, strong and stable and wouldn’t go out in the wind. — Paul VandenBosch The Guide to Sailing and Cruising Stories: http://cruisenews.net Before you buy.

Response:

Don’t know about smells in the non-pressurized alcohol stoves, but the pressurized alcohol "Optimus Princess" had too much of it for my wife’s and my nostrils. So I just took the burners out and put in kerosene burners. They don’t smell unless something is wrong with the jets and give a good strong flame (hotter than propane); I make bread in a  SS folding Coleman oven which I put on top of one of the burners. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, All.  I’m considering installing an Origo Alcohol stove/oven in my Ericson 32 as I can’t find a good place for a propane locker and I’d rather not deal with the extra system requirements of  LPG.  Origo claims 7000 btu for their burners and a quart water boiling time of 6-8 minutes, but I’ve heard from others that they feel Alcohol doesn’t burn hot enough. If you check Deja News about two years back, you’ll find an extensive thread on this exact topic.  That said, the complaint of inadequate heat is the quintessential one with respect to the old fermented corn squeezins’.  The boat we just sold had an Origo two-burner stove, and we liked it just fine. Cooking was delayed only slightly compared with propane, but never a problem.  We, like another responder, used a pressure cooker, which is the great equalizer.  That same responder reported using denatured alcohol from the hardware store–okay provided you have good ventilation.  Acetone is typically used as the denaturing agent–if you have problems with that, you might be well-advised to buy cooking alcohol, as we did.  It was not that expensive to use, in my accounting of things. I’m not in a great rush when I’m cooking so I don’t mind waiting a bit longer, but is there an inherent problem with these non-pressurized alcohol systems? None of which I’m aware.  Ours worked flawlessly and it was about as simple as a stove could be.  If you follow the KISS principle, you’ll love an Origo. I’d like to hear from anyone who has actually used one, not just anecdotal evidence please.  Also, how well does the oven work? Well, ya got me there, padner.  I wasn’t aware that Origo made an oven, but I’m not surprised.  I’d definintely be more inclined to equip a boat with a non-pressurized stove and oven over propane, even if cost were not an object. As an afterthought, we purchased a single-burner Origo to use as a table-top burner for home use when serving larger buffet dinners.  As expected, it functions simply and flawlessly.  Our guests all want to know where they can buy one.  I hand them the West Marine catalog. Jeff

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Question:

Here’s just a thought that may enter into the equation: It would seem that walking becomes less efficient at higher speeds (otherwise why would we ever run)?  So it may depend on what he meant by walking fast.  Those speedwalkers seem to be burning more calories than a runner going the same speed. -jeff —                         Jeffrey Bigham             http://www.jeffreybigham.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I understand that running for a set time will burn more kilojoules than fast walking for 30 minutes. If you jog for a set distance (eg. 5km), do you burn the same number of kilojoules if you walk FAST for 5km ? Dear friend,     Yes, and no, of course!  Don’t ya hate when that’s the case?     Any physicist can explain that you do the same amount of work to move the same person over the same distance no matter how slow or quick you move.  Therefore, the calorie expenditure theoretically is the same.     However, jogging and walking are not purely expenditures of energy in moving yourself horizontally.  Walking is fairly flat and fairly fluid. Jogging is much up and down jarring.  Not only do you propel yourself forward, but also a little into the air upwards with each stride.  The little upward thrust expends extra energy.  And when you land back on the ground with each stride, you also expend a little energy to stop your falling coming to the ground.  I would therefore think that for any distance covered, jogging/running expends extra energy.     But I have no idea how much this amounts to.  If this extra energy is very small compared to the energy of horizontal propulsion, then walking and jogging are essentially equivalent.  If the extra energy is substantial, then perhaps jogging is much more caloric than walking.     I bet an exercise physiologist might know.  Pehaps one is reading today. — Josh Steinberg, Syracuse

Response:

Wrong mindset! Distance does not matter! It’s the time your run/jog. 30 Minutes a day should be OK (per day, every day). If you want to burn fat you need to run/jog SLOW. Very slow! Guideline: you should be able to have a conversation during running. Then it’s the right speed.

It does not matter if you burn fat or carbs during the actual run —- the body will do the accounting and shift energy substrates later. It is true (for the most part) that the distance covered is the determining factor in the number of calories used – during the actual time exercising. The faster you go – the longer your metabolism stays elevated —- I like to think of these as freebie calories. ? How can a 40 min run easy burn more cals or more fat than a 40 min tempo run ????? (retorical) The % of fat cals burned might be slightly higher (48 to 52ish) but the total number of cals and fat cals will be much higher in the tempo run. Most people can’t / won’t or will get injured with covering mega miles on a regular basis.  Take the amount of time you are willing to allot for working out — and run the pace where you feel you "could" go about another 1/4 as long (if i run for 40 min. go a pace where i think I could go for 50). But this type of workout gets old — fairly soon.  One way or another – we all must make exercising fun and enjoyable (some of us demented souls just love the burn of a good workout – but we’re demented).  If you are not enjoying most of your runs it puts you in the position of accepting lame excusses not to workout.  One day leads to two then three, …..    Add spice to the workout – try something different – join a group — crosstrain even.  Whatever it takes to keep it fun!!! good luck.

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Question:

I think what’s needed is just one, single, mega-transaction site which would be no different than Hotmail or anything else on the internet, except that the "users" would be any financial entity such as a person or a company. The MegaTransactionSite would maintain the following table:  Date/Time         The precise date and time the deal was agreed.  TransactionNo     The transaction id number.  UserID-Payor      Any registered user.  UserID-Receiver   Any registered user.

After I posted this I immediately got correctd, that the table needs to have   DataCargo         Any small string upto 50K. such as an XML invoice or PO Somebody else told me,  " http://www.iescrow.com/ –this site is headed in that direction " But that’s not the point.  There are lots of auction settlement escrows and middlemen: http://www.auctionuniverse.com/ bidsafe, and http://www.safebuyer.com/ http://www.tradesafe.com/ http://www.auctionuniverse.com/ http://www.trade-direct.com/ That’s not my point.  They are all pretty involved in the transactions.  What I’m suggesting is becoming a high-speed, secure intercompany journal for the entire world.  Any company could login, post any type of purchase,sale or journal entry to any other company.   My idea would be impractical if you had to have tunneling, secure connectivity with every user or even presume to be secure yourself. What makes it practical is that it’s based on a slow, meticulous after-processing with encrypted timestamps.  This converts the ultra-high-tech internet security problem to become instead, a plodding matter which can be performed by clerks of low intelligence who always win. Kind of like IRS audits of the Withholding tax reported at source. My idea also becomes realistic by the fact that the table itself is a narrow flatfile, which can be immediatly deployed with MySQL or lowend database.  It can be very easily be scaled upwards to infinity, as an ISAM table on any RAID, cluster or mainframe. Note that the huge narrow table is never edited, after written! You would have small tables of open items, not yet closed, but the closed table would be final and read-only except at the bottom of the file where records are added. The security is awesome.  It can only be written by the original process after blessing by the two agreeing parties by PGP email.   And even then, after being posted and becoming READ ONLY, the confirmations are sent. There simply isn’t any weak point on security.  When PGP email is compromised you’ll hear about it in the newspapers.  It hasn’t happend. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML Accounting Web ledger ASP netledger, web GL Dialtone, whatever.

Response:

This isn’t as secure as you think.  Think about for awhile and I think you will see the flaw.  Granted, it’s pretty strong and would be about as secure as you would need, but there is one small weakness that jumps out… Think about it from different perspectives and I think you will find the flaw very easily.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think what’s needed is just one, single, mega-transaction site which would be no different than Hotmail or anything else on the internet, except that the "users" would be any financial entity such as a person or a company. The MegaTransactionSite would maintain the following table:  Date/Time         The precise date and time the deal was agreed.  TransactionNo     The transaction id number.  UserID-Payor      Any registered user.  UserID-Receiver   Any registered user. After I posted this I immediately got correctd, that the table needs to have   DataCargo         Any small string upto 50K. such as an XML invoice or PO Somebody else told me,  " http://www.iescrow.com/ –this site is headed in that direction " But that’s not the point.  There are lots of auction settlement escrows and middlemen: http://www.auctionuniverse.com/ bidsafe, and http://www.safebuyer.com/ http://www.tradesafe.com/ http://www.auctionuniverse.com/ http://www.trade-direct.com/ That’s not my point.  They are all pretty involved in the transactions.  What I’m suggesting is becoming a high-speed, secure intercompany journal for the entire world.  Any company could login, post any type of purchase,sale or journal entry to any other company. My idea would be impractical if you had to have tunneling, secure connectivity with every user or even presume to be secure yourself. What makes it practical is that it’s based on a slow, meticulous after-processing with encrypted timestamps.  This converts the ultra-high-tech internet security problem to become instead, a plodding matter which can be performed by clerks of low intelligence who always win. Kind of like IRS audits of the Withholding tax reported at source. My idea also becomes realistic by the fact that the table itself is a narrow flatfile, which can be immediatly deployed with MySQL or lowend database.  It can be very easily be scaled upwards to infinity, as an ISAM table on any RAID, cluster or mainframe. Note that the huge narrow table is never edited, after written! You would have small tables of open items, not yet closed, but the closed table would be final and read-only except at the bottom of the file where records are added. The security is awesome.  It can only be written by the original process after blessing by the two agreeing parties by PGP email. And even then, after being posted and becoming READ ONLY, the confirmations are sent. There simply isn’t any weak point on security.  When PGP email is compromised you’ll hear about it in the newspapers.  It hasn’t happend. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML Accounting Web ledger ASP netledger, web GL Dialtone, whatever.

Response:

This isn’t as secure as you think.  Think about for awhile and I think you will see the flaw.  Granted, it’s pretty strong and would be about as secure as you would need, but there is one small weakness that jumps out… Think about it from different perspectives and I think you will find the flaw very easily.

Well, I’m not going to burn a lot of cycles on an open-ended comment like that, esp. from an anonymous post. Obviously the server would have to have fairly great security if only to protect against denial of service and fifty other kinds of harrassment.   It would also need to keep all its keys and users keys secure.  Probably the hardest problem is the users’ lack of control over their own keys… Nevertheless for closed transactions, stored on readonly devices, it’s hard to imagine very much going wrong. There are certainly much lower risks than realtime financial transactions banging into live, online cash accounts. Todd

Response:

Fortune magazine, December 1998 was bearish on a lot of Silicon Valley trends, especially Accounting ASPs.  They might not be so bearish today… but read on… http://cgi.pathfinder.com/fortune/technology/gurley/1998/12/07/index…. "Looking forward, a market that appears particularly susceptible to the good-idea problem is "outsourced application services." The concept is that enterprise software applications such as those of SAP, PeopleSoft, and Oracle can be run remotely via the Web, and that customers don’t need their own servers or specialized staff to enjoy the benefits of these applications. This is certainly a good idea, but the number of startups attacking this space is remarkable. Most think they can succeed without modifying the prepackaged applications in question. But that may be a problem–these programs were not designed to host multiple companies or scale themselves to millions of users. Service architectures run over the Internet will have to look technically more like the simpler versions run by Yahoo or Amazon rather than the complex configurations that traditionally govern a client-server application. " What do you think?  That’s what matters. I think what’s needed is just one, single, mega-transaction site which would be no different than Hotmail or anything else on the internet, except that the "users" would be any financial entity such as a person or a company. The MegaTransactionSite would maintain the following table:   Date/Time         The precise date and time the deal was agreed.   TransactionNo     The transaction id number.   UserID-Payor      Any registered user.   UserID-Receiver   Any registered user. When you login, you have to login to an SSL connection.  The site requires long complex passwords.  They might have some additional feature like reverse DNS, etc. etc. or perhaps not. Anybody could post a request to pay somebody or a request to be paid by somebody.  Then you logoff. Pretty soon comes a PGP message from the MegaTransactionSite by email, sent to you and the other guy.  If you both agree and send a 128-bit encrypted reply back to the MegaTransactionSite it wuld be posted, and send another PGP message back to you, containing the precise instant it was posted, and the TransactionNo. That is all it would do.  <g Then, just stand back and watch the fireworks.   You could use this as a "good enough" data backbone for all kinds of stuff….. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML Accounting Web ledger ASP netledger, web GL Dialtone, whatever. -Todd * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML Accounting Web ledger ASP netledger, web GL Dialtone, whatever.

Response:

Question:

Can anyone help me, I am searching for a bookeeping software in which to start a small bookeeping service, all I seem to find is Peachtree. Thank You, Sam

Response:

Can anyone help me, I am searching for a bookkeeping software in which to start a small bookkeeping service, all I seem to find is Peachtree.

Hi Sam: QuickBooks is the largest selling small business accounting program by far. It is particularly good for non-accountants, so you could soon be a consultant for those who prefer doing their own basic bookkeeping. You can order a free  trial copy (25 uses) at the intuit store in the intuit.com site.   Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A., 954-566-7540, fax 7541 QuickBooks Professional Advisor,Official #1 QB6 Beta Tester     biz.comp.accounting co-moderator for spam free news      275 E Oakland Park Blvd, Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334

Response:

MAS90 is a good package, might be worth looking at. Alan Moore – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone help me, I am searching for a bookeeping software in which to start a small bookeeping service, all I seem to find is Peachtree. Thank You, Sam

Response:

Accpac has recently released Accpac for Windows Discovery Series. This is an integrated package of System Manager, GL, AR and AP with Crystal Reports for $1,495.00 Allan Martin

There is a principle that usually applies to all "Little Systems" that come from vendors who also sell big systems. They are always solid, respectable little systems but they have a lot of limitations that drive you to the higher cost platform. In other words a $1500 system from a one-product company will be a well-balanced system that includes as much as they can afford to put into the system for $1500. A $1500 system from a vendor who wants you to upgrade, will be designed to be as welcoming and inviting as possible for the first couple of layers into the menu.  But you will then find a continuous process of discovering things that ultimately, almost make it a foregone conclusion you will want to upgrade.   * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

Todd What you say may be true but for a small growing company that realizes that they have outgrown Quickbooks, going to a full blown Mid-Size accounting package may be too expensive. By the way,  the major limitation in the Accpac Discovery Series is not one of limited functionally, but in the number of concurrent users that can access the database. Discovery Series has a limit of three users. Migration to Accpac’s Small Business Series, and finally to the Corporate Series is a seamless one,  the database is the same. Very little staff training would be involved in upgrading, and Accpac does have upgrade pricing. Allan Martin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Accpac has recently released Accpac for Windows Discovery Series. This is an integrated package of System Manager, GL, AR and AP with Crystal Reports for $1,495.00 Allan Martin There is a principle that usually applies to all "Little Systems" that come from vendors who also sell big systems. They are always solid, respectable little systems but they have a lot of limitations that drive you to the higher cost platform. In other words a $1500 system from a one-product company will be a well-balanced system that includes as much as they can afford to put into the system for $1500. A $1500 system from a vendor who wants you to upgrade, will be designed to be as welcoming and inviting as possible for the first couple of layers into the menu.  But you will then find a continuous process of discovering things that ultimately, almost make it a foregone conclusion you will want to upgrade. * Todd F. Boyle CPA    http://www.GLDialtone.com/ * 9745-128th Av NE, Kirkland WA 98033       (425) 827-3107 * XML accounting, WebLedgers, ASPs, GL dialtone, whatever it takes

Response:

Accpac has recently released Accpac for Windows Discovery Series. This is an integrated package of System Manager, GL, AR and AP with Crystal Reports for $1,495.00 Allan Martin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ACCPAC Plus is a DOS based accounting program for mid to large sized companies.  ACCPAC for Windows is a Windows based accounting program for mid to large sized companies.  They are modular, that is different modules for G/L, AP, AR, etc. Cost over $1000 CDN per module. Simply Accounting is for small to mid sized companies, and is now Windows based.  Simply is integrated, all accounting is posted to G/L immediately. Cost under $200 CDN for everything. Hi all: Two questions: 1. Is there a big difference between ACCPAC and Simply Accounting? 2. What is AS/400? Thank you in advance.

Response:

Hi all: Two questions: 1. Is there a big difference between ACCPAC and Simply Accounting? 2. What is AS/400? Thank you in advance.

Response:

2) AS400 is a mainframe.  Many large corporations may use this mainframe to record all of their accounting data on it.

AS400 is IBM’s step up os, competes with unix and oracle and the like, very big in the inventory/order entry/warehouse/distribution markets

Response:

ACCPAC Plus is a DOS based accounting program for mid to large sized companies.  ACCPAC for Windows is a Windows based accounting program for mid to large sized companies.  They are modular, that is different modules for G/L, AP, AR, etc. Cost over $1000 CDN per module. Simply Accounting is for small to mid sized companies, and is now Windows based.  Simply is integrated, all accounting is posted to G/L immediately. Cost under $200 CDN for everything.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all: Two questions: 1. Is there a big difference between ACCPAC and Simply Accounting? 2. What is AS/400? Thank you in advance.

Response:

Hi all: Two questions: 1. Is there a big difference between ACCPAC and Simply Accounting? 2. What is AS/400? Thank you in advance.

1. Yes 2. Among other uses the name "AS/400" refers to a line of IBM business computers. LB

Response:

Kurt Brown Vacation Motor Hotel 658 Providence Blvd Clarksville, TN 37042 Greetings: I run a small (85 room) hotel and am looking for an accounting freeware/shareware program that will keep tract of the bills only. I have a program that tracks the room revenue and phone call from the switchboard. It does a good job but does not handle any of the expenses (bills). I do not need a full blown accounting software like "Quick Books" just something that will handle the bills that is better than a spreadsheets program that I am now using . Can Any recommend something ? Thanks Kurt B.

Response:

For cash basis with no a/r, a/p or payroll needs and don’t want QB, I recommend Quicken. It beats a spreadsheet easily. Plain version is about $30. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kurt Brown Vacation Motor Hotel 658 Providence Blvd Clarksville, TN 37042 Greetings: I run a small (85 room) hotel and am looking for an accounting freeware/shareware program that will keep tract of the bills only. I have a program that tracks the room revenue and phone call from the switchboard. It does a good job but does not handle any of the expenses (bills). I do not need a full blown accounting software like "Quick Books" just something that will handle the bills that is better than a spreadsheets program that I am now using . Can Any recommend something ? Thanks Kurt B.

Response:

Could anyone tell me if  there is other accounting newsgroups?

Response:

Could anyone tell me if  there is other accounting newsgroups?

It depends on what type of accounting information you want. Most of the other groups are more "specialized" in nature (taxes, internal audit, financial planning, computerized accounting, etc.) than this generic group. Ed Zollars, CPA (AZ) http://www.getnet.com/~hmtzcpas

Response:

There is biz.comp.accounting it is moderated so you don’t get alot of spam but the cry babies are there too. cry babies, people who complain all the time! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone tell me if  there is other accounting newsgroups?

Response:

Chris, try www.forumone.com.  It’s a repository of all different forums and I’ve found some interesting groups through their website. Gail BAUMARK Accounting Software 1-888-485-3900 — The fault finder will find faults even in paradise.  Thoreau – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone tell me if  there is other accounting newsgroups?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why would a bear need a gattling penguin in a turret? August Asche cross-posting lurkers at twelve o’ clock high! Bring the gattling penguin turret to bear!!! — ry’s world wide wacked site 6/17 Spamdex updated, including new trophy room http://www.teleport.com/~ry "You say you can’t tell any difference… between the pleasure and the pain." Vernon Reid

Response:

I didn’t get your message… I’m sorry! Repost? August Asche

cross-posting lurkers at twelve o’ clock high! Bring the gattling penguin turret to bear!!! — ry’s world wide wacked site 6/17 Spamdex updated, including new trophy room http://www.teleport.com/~ry "You say you can’t tell any difference… between the pleasure and the pain." Vernon Reid

Response:

I didn’t get your message… I’m sorry! Repost? August Asche – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

Amen! — Gina Dent BookSmart St. Louis, MO –If you love what you do, you will never work another day in your life. –Confucius – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, can both of you guys just go away.  You are not adding anything to the newsgroup and you both ought to find something more productive to do with your time. Ben Punish away, loser….and by the way….I am not too worried… You wouldn’t make it past the gate to my subdivision.(We have gates to keep out the riffraff…Oh, and that would be you) You sad little man. I can only assume that your bragging about your home is a form of compensation for your undersized penis. I hereby decree that you are expelled from alt.accounting. You shall not post to this group in future. Should I find any further posts from you, disciplinary action will be swift and merciless. tUPotS message Great use of profanity…You are one classy guy….. VitW, as you have not learned any manners, I have come to beat you severely again. Listen, why don’t you just stick with your own kind and leave us accountants alone. I despise accountants. You are theiving, selfish, unpleasant bureacrats. As far as the rest of the newsgroup…just look at this guy’s handle…"Unkempt Prophet of the Subway"…."UNKEMPT PROPHET OF THE You dislike my name ?? Voice in the Wilderness isn’t exactly the soul of creativity, is it ?? That would be when you are not masquerading as Anonymous. VitW, you will now apologize to the entire group for your arrogance, otherwise I will be obliged to punish you further. tUPotS in alternatively..you could all try NOT CROSS POSTING into irrelevant NG’s? Alternatively, you could run back to your ledgers and not stick your fucking nose into conversations that do not concern you, beancounter. Just an idea..or you may find alt.accounting littered with pointless messages… No, I find alt.accounting littered with unimaginative half- wits who cry out "Please flame us !! We’re dull !!" oh.. on second thoughts…… A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

I accept your praise gratefully….. If you start acting nicer, I may even give you a lesson in manners…. But, after reading your sentence below, perhaps you need a lesson in grammar first…. Oh, the problems we suffer when the masses try to improve their lot…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nobody special…. Just someone with a car…:) A car, a pompous attitude, and an understanding of Usenet that is borders on the infantile. Run along now, Skippy, before I take a serious interest in alt.accounting. I’m glad you think VitW needs to apoligize.  However, I doubt you will get your wish. Gee, I wonder who this anonymous asshole is: Path: newscene.newscene.com!newscene!novia!remarQ- easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!nntp.abs.net!attmtf!ip.att.net!w n4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.accounting,alt.tasteless.jokes,alt.romath Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 77 References: Reply-To: "Anonymous" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.74.56.56 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 929925057 15382 12.74.56.56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Xref: newscene alt.accounting:19226 alt.tasteless.jokes:339931 alt.romath:18520 Oh my !! Now who is VitW, I wonder?? Path: newscene.newscene.com!newscene!novia!remarQ- easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!attmtf!ip.att.net!wn4feed!worldn et.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.accounting Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 3 Reply-To: "A Voice in the Wilderness" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.74.5.220 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 929059039 23744 12.74.5.220 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Xref: newscene alt.accounting:19029 See a shrink, dickhead. By the way, great handle…… You sound like a real nice guy.  One question,  you were beat up a lot in high school, weren’t you. A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once. People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400- $1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

Hey, can both of you guys just go away.  You are not adding anything to the newsgroup and you both ought to find something more productive to do with your time. Ben – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Punish away, loser….and by the way….I am not too worried… You wouldn’t make it past the gate to my subdivision.(We have gates to keep out the riffraff…Oh, and that would be you) You sad little man. I can only assume that your bragging about your home is a form of compensation for your undersized penis. I hereby decree that you are expelled from alt.accounting. You shall not post to this group in future. Should I find any further posts from you, disciplinary action will be swift and merciless. tUPotS message Great use of profanity…You are one classy guy….. VitW, as you have not learned any manners, I have come to beat you severely again. Listen, why don’t you just stick with your own kind and leave us accountants alone. I despise accountants. You are theiving, selfish, unpleasant bureacrats. As far as the rest of the newsgroup…just look at this guy’s handle…"Unkempt Prophet of the Subway"…."UNKEMPT PROPHET OF THE You dislike my name ?? Voice in the Wilderness isn’t exactly the soul of creativity, is it ?? That would be when you are not masquerading as Anonymous. VitW, you will now apologize to the entire group for your arrogance, otherwise I will be obliged to punish you further. tUPotS in alternatively..you could all try NOT CROSS POSTING into irrelevant NG’s? Alternatively, you could run back to your ledgers and not stick your fucking nose into conversations that do not concern you, beancounter. Just an idea..or you may find alt.accounting littered with pointless messages… No, I find alt.accounting littered with unimaginative half- wits who cry out "Please flame us !! We’re dull !!" oh.. on second thoughts…… A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

Double dealing.  Who said I’m double-dealing.  Oh, and by the way, it is obvious from your post that you are homophobic.  And we know what that means, don’t we, sweetie. By the way,  No judge would ever sentence me to serve time with the riffraff and criminal trash.  If I ever went to jail, it would a white-collar country club prison.  Because, if you haven’t figured it out by now, the Judges are on our side too.  It’s true..  It’s one big conspiracy to screw the poor. You know we’re going to win.  Good breeding, great money, and a system that is designed to keep it that way… HA HA HA HA HA HA By the way, great use of profanity.  You are really one classy guy. Sincerely, Anonymous to you, but not to my peers

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Punish away, loser….and by the way….I am not too worried… You wouldn’t make it past the gate to my subdivision.(We have gates to keep out the riffraff…Oh, and that would be you) Let’s just see how affluent you are when the IRS gets wind of your double dealings, fuckwit. Instead of closing the gates to your subdivision, the guards will be closing the gates to your jail cell. The riff raff you’ll be schmoozing with will go by the name of Bubba, with a schlong the size of an Italian salami. Great use of profanity…You are one classy guy….. VitW, as you have not learned any manners, I have come to beat you severely again. Listen, why don’t you just stick with your own kind and leave us accountants alone. I despise accountants. You are theiving, selfish, unpleasant bureacrats. As far as the rest of the newsgroup…just look at this guy’s handle…"Unkempt Prophet of the Subway"…."UNKEMPT PROPHET OF THE You dislike my name ?? Voice in the Wilderness isn’t exactly the soul of creativity, is it ?? That would be when you are not masquerading as Anonymous. VitW, you will now apologize to the entire group for your arrogance, otherwise I will be obliged to punish you further. tUPotS alternatively..you could all try NOT CROSS POSTING into irrelevant NG’s? Alternatively, you could run back to your ledgers and not stick your fucking nose into conversations that do not concern you, beancounter. Just an idea..or you may find alt.accounting littered with pointless messages… No, I find alt.accounting littered with unimaginative half- wits who cry out "Please flame us !! We’re dull !!" oh.. on second thoughts…… A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

Punish away, loser….and by the way….I am not too worried… You wouldn’t make it past the gate to my subdivision.(We have gates to keep out the riffraff…Oh, and that would be you)

Let’s just see how affluent you are when the IRS gets wind of your double dealings, fuckwit. Instead of closing the gates to your subdivision, the guards will be closing the gates to your jail cell. The riff raff you’ll be schmoozing with will go by the name of Bubba, with a schlong the size of an Italian salami. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great use of profanity…You are one classy guy….. VitW, as you have not learned any manners, I have come to beat you severely again. Listen, why don’t you just stick with your own kind and leave us accountants alone. I despise accountants. You are theiving, selfish, unpleasant bureacrats. As far as the rest of the newsgroup…just look at this guy’s handle…"Unkempt Prophet of the Subway"…."UNKEMPT PROPHET OF THE You dislike my name ?? Voice in the Wilderness isn’t exactly the soul of creativity, is it ?? That would be when you are not masquerading as Anonymous. VitW, you will now apologize to the entire group for your arrogance, otherwise I will be obliged to punish you further. tUPotS alternatively..you could all try NOT CROSS POSTING into irrelevant NG’s? Alternatively, you could run back to your ledgers and not stick your fucking nose into conversations that do not concern you, beancounter. Just an idea..or you may find alt.accounting littered with pointless messages… No, I find alt.accounting littered with unimaginative half- wits who cry out "Please flame us !! We’re dull !!" oh.. on second thoughts…… A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

Punish away, loser….and by the way….I am not too worried… You wouldn’t make it past the gate to my subdivision.(We have gates to keep out the riffraff…Oh, and that would be you) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great use of profanity…You are one classy guy….. VitW, as you have not learned any manners, I have come to beat you severely again. Listen, why don’t you just stick with your own kind and leave us accountants alone. I despise accountants. You are theiving, selfish, unpleasant bureacrats. As far as the rest of the newsgroup…just look at this guy’s handle…"Unkempt Prophet of the Subway"…."UNKEMPT PROPHET OF THE You dislike my name ?? Voice in the Wilderness isn’t exactly the soul of creativity, is it ?? That would be when you are not masquerading as Anonymous. VitW, you will now apologize to the entire group for your arrogance, otherwise I will be obliged to punish you further. tUPotS alternatively..you could all try NOT CROSS POSTING into irrelevant NG’s? Alternatively, you could run back to your ledgers and not stick your fucking nose into conversations that do not concern you, beancounter. Just an idea..or you may find alt.accounting littered with pointless messages… No, I find alt.accounting littered with unimaginative half- wits who cry out "Please flame us !! We’re dull !!" oh.. on second thoughts…… A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

Great use of profanity…You are one classy guy…..

VitW, as you have not learned any manners, I have come to beat you severely again. Listen, why don’t you just stick with your own kind and leave us accountants alone.

I despise accountants. You are theiving, selfish, unpleasant bureacrats. As far as the rest of the newsgroup…just look at this guy’s handle…"Unkempt Prophet of the Subway"…."UNKEMPT PROPHET OF THE

You dislike my name ?? Voice in the Wilderness isn’t exactly the soul of creativity, is it ?? That would be when you are not masquerading as Anonymous. VitW, you will now apologize to the entire group for your arrogance, otherwise I will be obliged to punish you further. tUPotS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alternatively..you could all try NOT CROSS POSTING into irrelevant NG’s? Alternatively, you could run back to your ledgers and not stick your fucking nose into conversations that do not concern you, beancounter. Just an idea..or you may find alt.accounting littered with pointless messages… No, I find alt.accounting littered with unimaginative half- wits who cry out "Please flame us !! We’re dull !!" oh.. on second thoughts…… A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

Great use of profanity…You are one classy guy….. Listen, why don’t you just stick with your own kind and leave us accountants alone. As far as the rest of the newsgroup…just look at this guy’s handle…"Unkempt Prophet of the Subway"…."UNKEMPT PROPHET OF THE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – alternatively..you could all try NOT CROSS POSTING into irrelevant NG’s? Alternatively, you could run back to your ledgers and not stick your fucking nose into conversations that do not concern you, beancounter. Just an idea..or you may find alt.accounting littered with pointless messages… No, I find alt.accounting littered with unimaginative half- wits who cry out "Please flame us !! We’re dull !!" oh.. on second thoughts…… A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

alternatively..you could all try NOT CROSS POSTING into irrelevant NG’s?

No. My automatic crosspost agent (ACA) prevents me from posting to too few groups (TFG) by upping the auto-crosspost tax allowance (AXPTA) Just an idea..or you may find alt.accounting littered with pointless messages…

One can dream that alt.romath will move on to own more and more (MAM) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -oh.. on second thoughts…… A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

–     Knight of the Ancient Garter of Romath (WE ARE ALL ROMATH)        "Don’t try making me look like the fol, because you’ll never succeed."

Response:

alternatively..you could all try NOT CROSS POSTING into irrelevant NG’s? Just an idea..or you may find alt.accounting littered with pointless messages… oh.. on second thoughts…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

I’m glad you think VitW needs to apoligize.  However, I doubt you will get your wish. By the way, great handle…… You sound like a real nice guy.  One question,  you were beat up a lot in high school, weren’t you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

Nobody special…. Just someone with a car…:) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m glad you think VitW needs to apoligize.  However, I doubt you will get your wish. Gee, I wonder who this anonymous asshole is: Path: newscene.newscene.com!newscene!novia!remarQ- easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!nntp.abs.net!attmtf!ip.att.net!w n4feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmaster1!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.accounting,alt.tasteless.jokes,alt.romath Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 77 References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.74.56.56 X-Trace: bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net 929925057 15382 12.74.56.56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Xref: newscene alt.accounting:19226 alt.tasteless.jokes:339931 alt.romath:18520 Oh my !! Now who is VitW, I wonder?? Path: newscene.newscene.com!newscene!novia!remarQ- easT!supernews.com!remarQ.com!attmtf!ip.att.net!wn4feed!worldn et.att.net!wnmaster2!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.accounting Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 3 Reply-To: "A Voice in the Wilderness" NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.74.5.220 X-Trace: bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net 929059039 23744 12.74.5.220 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Xref: newscene alt.accounting:19029 See a shrink, dickhead. By the way, great handle…… You sound like a real nice guy.  One question,  you were beat up a lot in high school, weren’t you. A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob. After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. I agree. VitW had no reason to assume that tone. Can we not debate this issue without resorting to childish taunts like this ?? What if we all were to assume this snide stance ? I had thought that we could discuss these issues as amture adults. Obviously not. VitW clearly prefers to score sly points with his sneaky attacks. Shame on you, VitW. I think you should apologize to us all. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long- term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap. If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

A Voice in the Wilderness replied to my post with the following… You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob.  After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble.

I’m not quite sure how you read intellectual snobbery  into my comments, and I apologize to you or anyone else who might have taken them the wrong way.  At any rate, it appears not to have occurred to you that I didn’t need to sit for the exam more than once.  People’s experiences can be different, and these can be discussed without the need for personal attacks. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long-term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap.

If preferring to spend $50 or so as opposed to $1400-$1500 makes me cheap, so be it. I appreciate your comments and how you might have taken exception to mine, but my point remains that I don’t believe that it is the amount of money spent or even the particular course that is the most important factor, but the time and effort spent in preparation for the exam.  That is simply my opinion, and since the original poster was seeking opinions, I feel that there is nothing wrong with offering one.

Response:

Fred Goodwin, CMA provided some insight with the following… I found Becker to be extremely helpful in passing the CPA exam, not because it teaches you accounting (you should already know that) but because it teaches you test-taking techniques (which academic courses do not emphasize). The techniques I learned in Becker also helped me in my self-study when I later took the CMA exam.

Yes, many courses do this.  GMAT / LSAT exam prep courses and such will do the same. Once again, however, I have found that much of this information is readily available in books at a fraction of the cost.  There are certainly strategies to taking any test, and any guidance is helpful. However, there is definitely more than one way to learn about these. I am certainly in favor of people doing whatever is necessary to pass whatever tests they need to reach their personal and professional goals. I think that it is important to note that it is not necessary to spend a great deal of money in most cases to do so, and I have thus pointed out here that prep courses are not the only way to go.

Response:

SMHOMEGIRL contributed the following: best advise – go to a class

As I had explained in my earlier post, I strongly disagree with this sentiment.  I actually believe the courses to be somewhat of a waste of time and money for anyone with an adequate accounting education and the drive and desire to devote sufficient study time to pass the exam, and even more of a waste of time and money for anyone who does not meet that description.

Response:

best advise – go to a class SLM

Response:

SMHOMEGIRL contributed the following: best advise – go to a class As I had explained in my earlier post, I strongly disagree with this sentiment.  I actually believe the courses to be somewhat of a waste of time and money for anyone with an adequate accounting education and the drive and desire to devote sufficient study time to pass the exam, and even more of a waste of time and money for anyone who does not meet that description.

I found Becker to be extremely helpful in passing the CPA exam, not because it teaches you accounting (you should already know that) but because it teaches you test-taking techniques (which academic courses do not emphasize). The techniques I learned in Becker also helped me in my self-study when I later took the CMA exam.

Response:

Good Luck to you, then, but I can tell you that there were many areas on the exam that are not well-covered in University classes, but are well-covered in Becker. You come across as a little bit of an intellectual snob.  After you sit for the exam once, you will probably be a little more humble. In any case, I recommend Becker for everyone I hire and everyone I meet.  If you can pass without it, then more power to you. By the way, "waste of time and money".  The course is about $1400-1500.  In the short term, it might be a lot of money, in the long-term, it’s nothing. It also sounds like you might be just a little bit cheap.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SMHOMEGIRL contributed the following: best advise – go to a class As I had explained in my earlier post, I strongly disagree with this sentiment.  I actually believe the courses to be somewhat of a waste of time and money for anyone with an adequate accounting education and the drive and desire to devote sufficient study time to pass the exam, and even more of a waste of time and money for anyone who does not meet that description.

Response:

Debbie, I can’t comment on the CPA review but I am using Gleim materials reviewing for the CMA exams and I have found them very helpful.  They are very reasonably priced and well organized.  Check them out at www.gleim.com Don   I’m studying for the CPA and looking for what would be considered the   best preperation program — whether online or software.  If you can   help by making a suggestion, please do so.     Thank you!   Debbie

Response:

I’m studying for the CPA and looking for what would be considered the best preperation program — whether online or software.  If you can help by making a suggestion, please do so.   Thank you! Debbie

Response:

Question:

In article <4scao5$…@news.usit.net> Joe Belk, bel…@usit.net writes: >Now the connection has been made between the NEA’s sex education >preferences and the possibly criminal, possibly fraudulent research of >Alfred Kinsey fifty years ago. This research appears under scrutiny to >be akin to research conducted by German Nazis on Jewish subjects in >the 1940’s, ……..

You must read a lot of nazi research……… Have any improvements been made lately??? Just wondering, you seem like the one who would know!!! Member NEA/VEA/VBEA and proud to teach!!