Question:

WOMEN DRIVERS     Driving to the office this morning on the Interstate, I looked over to   my left and there was a woman in a brand new Mustang doing 65 mph with   her face up next to her rear view mirror putting on her eyeliner.     I looked away for a couple seconds and when I looked back she was   halfway over in my lane, still working on that makeup.     As a man, I don’t scare easily. But she scared me so much; I dropped my   electric shaver, which knocked the donut out of my other hand.     In all the confusion of trying to straighten out the car using my knees   against the steering wheel, it knocked my cell phone away from my ear   which   fell into the coffee between my legs, splashed, and burned Big Jim and   the   Twins, ruined the damn phone, soaked my trousers, and disconnected an   important call.     Damn women drivers ! !    

Response:

LOL!!! Funny stuff! Erik D. ‘94 white lightning – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WOMEN DRIVERS   Driving to the office this morning on the Interstate, I looked over to   my left and there was a woman in a brand new Mustang doing 65 mph with   her face up next to her rear view mirror putting on her eyeliner.   I looked away for a couple seconds and when I looked back she was   halfway over in my lane, still working on that makeup.   As a man, I don’t scare easily. But she scared me so much; I dropped my   electric shaver, which knocked the donut out of my other hand.   In all the confusion of trying to straighten out the car using my knees   against the steering wheel, it knocked my cell phone away from my ear   which   fell into the coffee between my legs, splashed, and burned Big Jim and   the   Twins, ruined the damn phone, soaked my trousers, and disconnected an   important call.   Damn women drivers ! !

Response:

Was her plate  "SVTKATE"  :-)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WOMEN DRIVERS   Driving to the office this morning on the Interstate, I looked over to   my left and there was a woman in a brand new Mustang doing 65 mph with   her face up next to her rear view mirror putting on her eyeliner.   I looked away for a couple seconds and when I looked back she was   halfway over in my lane, still working on that makeup.   As a man, I don’t scare easily. But she scared me so much; I dropped my   electric shaver, which knocked the donut out of my other hand.   In all the confusion of trying to straighten out the car using my knees   against the steering wheel, it knocked my cell phone away from my ear   which   fell into the coffee between my legs, splashed, and burned Big Jim and   the   Twins, ruined the damn phone, soaked my trousers, and disconnected an   important call.   Damn women drivers ! !

Response:

Weren’t you the little twit who tried to race me in downtown Columbus and again in London(ohio) the very next day. What a shame your should have learned the first time that a 427 BB Ford will eat your puny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was her plate  "SVTKATE"  :-) WOMEN DRIVERS Driving to the office this morning on the Interstate, I looked over to my left and there was a woman in a brand new Mustang doing 65 mph with her face up next to her rear view mirror putting on her eyeliner. I looked away for a couple seconds and when I looked back she was halfway over in my lane, still working on that makeup. As a man, I don’t scare easily. But she scared me so much; I dropped my electric shaver, which knocked the donut out of my other hand. In all the confusion of trying to straighten out the car using my knees against the steering wheel, it knocked my cell phone away from my ear which fell into the coffee between my legs, splashed, and burned Big Jim and the Twins, ruined the damn phone, soaked my trousers, and disconnected an important call. Damn women drivers ! !

Response:

Are you talking to me? You have the wrong LX. I am sure you could beat me, since mine is stock.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Weren’t you the little twit who tried to race me in downtown Columbus and again in London(ohio) the very next day. What a shame your should have learned the first time that a 427 BB Ford will eat your puny Was her plate  "SVTKATE"  :-) WOMEN DRIVERS Driving to the office this morning on the Interstate, I looked over to my left and there was a woman in a brand new Mustang doing 65 mph with her face up next to her rear view mirror putting on her eyeliner. I looked away for a couple seconds and when I looked back she was halfway over in my lane, still working on that makeup. As a man, I don’t scare easily. But she scared me so much; I dropped my electric shaver, which knocked the donut out of my other hand. In all the confusion of trying to straighten out the car using my knees against the steering wheel, it knocked my cell phone away from my ear which fell into the coffee between my legs, splashed, and burned Big Jim and the Twins, ruined the damn phone, soaked my trousers, and disconnected an important call. Damn women drivers ! !

Response:

Weren’t you the little twit who tried to race me in downtown Columbus and again in London(ohio) the very next day. What a shame your should have learned the first time that a 427 BB Ford will eat your puny

Bill…how the heck did you come to that conclusion from a one liner? — -Keith ‘96 GT 5spd … with an ‘02 engine

Response:

It sounded just like the twit who tried not once, but twice to race me – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill…how the heck did you come to that conclusion from a one liner?

Response:

You have the wrong twit. Besides, if I was racing anyone, Heather (my GF) would have to get out of the car. That alone would get rid of 250lbs. I know I can’t talk. I weigh 260lbs but, I am 6′5". she is 5′2".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It sounded just like the twit who tried not once, but twice to race me Bill…how the heck did you come to that conclusion from a one liner?

Response:

Was her plate  "SVTKATE"  :-)

HA!

Response:

LMAO! perfect! Kate

| LOL!!! Funny stuff! | Erik D. | ‘94 white lightning | |

| WOMEN DRIVERS | | |   | | |   Driving to the office this morning on the Interstate, I looked over to | | |   my left and there was a woman in a brand new Mustang doing 65 mph with | | |   her face up next to her rear view mirror putting on her eyeliner. | | |   | | |   I looked away for a couple seconds and when I looked back she was | | |   halfway over in my lane, still working on that makeup. | | |   | | |   As a man, I don’t scare easily. But she scared me so much; I dropped my | | |   electric shaver, which knocked the donut out of my other hand. | | |   | | |   In all the confusion of trying to straighten out the car using my knees | | |   against the steering wheel, it knocked my cell phone away from my ear | | |   which | | |   fell into the coffee between my legs, splashed, and burned Big Jim and | | |   the | | |   Twins, ruined the damn phone, soaked my trousers, and disconnected an | | |   important call. | | |   | | |   Damn women drivers ! ! | | |   | | |   | |

Response:

that’s it DC… c’mere so I can whack you! Kate

| Was her plate  "SVTKATE"  :-) | | | WOMEN DRIVERS | | |   | | |   Driving to the office this morning on the Interstate, I looked over to | | |   my left and there was a woman in a brand new Mustang doing 65 mph with | | |   her face up next to her rear view mirror putting on her eyeliner. | | |   | | |   I looked away for a couple seconds and when I looked back she was | | |   halfway over in my lane, still working on that makeup. | | |   | | |   As a man, I don’t scare easily. But she scared me so much; I dropped my | | |   electric shaver, which knocked the donut out of my other hand. | | |   | | |   In all the confusion of trying to straighten out the car using my knees | | |   against the steering wheel, it knocked my cell phone away from my ear | | |   which | | |   fell into the coffee between my legs, splashed, and burned Big Jim and | | |   the | | |   Twins, ruined the damn phone, soaked my trousers, and disconnected an | | |   important call. | | |   | | |   Damn women drivers ! ! | | |   | | |   | | |

Response:

LOL!

| You have the wrong twit. | | Besides, if I was racing anyone, Heather (my GF) would have to get out of | the car. That alone would get rid of 250lbs. | I know I can’t talk. I weigh 260lbs but, I am 6′5". she is 5′2". | | | It sounded just like the twit who tried not once, but twice to race me | | | |

| | Bill…how the heck did you come to that conclusion from a one liner? | | | |

Response:

Weren’t you the little twit who tried to race me in downtown Columbus and again in London(ohio) the very next day. What a shame your should have learned the first time that a 427 BB Ford will eat your puny

Now….wait a second here…. Bill S STREETRACING???? What’s the world come to? Stephan

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Not only racing on the street, but doing it under "police supervision" Bill S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill S STREETRACING???? What’s the world come to? Stephan

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Hmm allright now *that* you’re going to have to elaborate on. Stephan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not only racing on the street, but doing it under "police supervision" Bill S. Bill S STREETRACING???? What’s the world come to? Stephan

Response:

As part of our groups get together, we took over the main square of London, Ohio the day they held their annual Strawberry festival…….The chief of police in turn set up his own temporary drag strip down main street. Complete with an officer and a radar gun instead as many "A" type personalities together in one place, crazy thing turned in to who could trip the radar gun with the fastest time within the four city blocks (less than a 1/4 mile by about 100 Cystic Fibrosis group in the name of Jenny Smith (of Factory Five fame) Bill S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmm allright now *that* you’re going to have to elaborate on. Stephan Not only racing on the street, but doing it under "police supervision" Bill S. Bill S STREETRACING???? What’s the world come to? Stephan

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Hey let me know when it comes up next time…..maybe I’ll bring my fiero along & spank some cobras ( j/k!! unless I got nuff money ’till then to put my turbo’s in ) Stephan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -As part of our groups get together, we took over the main square of London, Ohio the day they held their annual Strawberry festival…….The chief of police in turn set up his own temporary drag strip down main street. Complete with an officer and a radar gun instead as many "A" type personalities together in one place, crazy thing turned in to who could trip the radar gun with the fastest time within the four city blocks (less than a 1/4 mile by about 100 Cystic Fibrosis group in the name of Jenny Smith (of Factory Five fame) Bill S. Hmm allright now *that* you’re going to have to elaborate on. Stephan Not only racing on the street, but doing it under "police supervision" Bill S. Bill S STREETRACING???? What’s the world come to? Stephan

Response:

Stephan,      How could you miss 283 Cobra rumbling around the area surrounding Bill S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey let me know when it comes up next time…..maybe I’ll bring my fiero along & spank some cobras ( j/k!! unless I got nuff money ’till then to put my turbo’s in ) Stephan As part of our groups get together, we took over the main square of London, Ohio the day they held their annual Strawberry festival…….The chief of police in turn set up his own temporary drag strip down main street. Complete with an officer and a radar gun instead as many "A" type personalities together in one place, crazy thing turned in to who could trip the radar gun with the fastest time within the four city blocks (less than a 1/4 mile by about 100 Cystic Fibrosis group in the name of Jenny Smith (of Factory Five fame) Bill S. Hmm allright now *that* you’re going to have to elaborate on. Stephan Not only racing on the street, but doing it under "police supervision" Bill S. Bill S STREETRACING???? What’s the world come to? Stephan

Response:

Well lets see….while 283 cobras are indeed very noticable. It’s still pretty tough to see them in ohio from florida. Stephan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Stephan,     How could you miss 283 Cobra rumbling around the area surrounding Bill S. Hey let me know when it comes up next time…..maybe I’ll bring my fiero along & spank some cobras ( j/k!! unless I got nuff money ’till then to put my turbo’s in ) Stephan As part of our groups get together, we took over the main square of London, Ohio the day they held their annual Strawberry festival…….The chief of police in turn set up his own temporary drag strip down main street. Complete with an officer and a radar gun instead as many "A" type personalities together in one place, crazy thing turned in to who could trip the radar gun with the fastest time within the four city blocks (less than a 1/4 mile by about 100 Cystic Fibrosis group in the name of Jenny Smith (of Factory Five fame) Bill S. Hmm allright now *that* you’re going to have to elaborate on. Stephan Not only racing on the street, but doing it under "police supervision" Bill S. Bill S STREETRACING???? What’s the world come to? Stephan

Response:

I would have thought you could have at least heard them all running at Bill S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well lets see….while 283 cobras are indeed very noticable. It’s still pretty tough to see them in ohio from florida. Stephan Stephan,    How could you miss 283 Cobra rumbling around the area surrounding Bill S. Hey let me know when it comes up next time…..maybe I’ll bring my fiero along & spank some cobras ( j/k!! unless I got nuff money ’till then to put my turbo’s in ) Stephan As part of our groups get together, we took over the main square of London, Ohio the day they held their annual Strawberry festival…….The chief of police in turn set up his own temporary drag strip down main street. Complete with an officer and a radar gun instead as many "A" type personalities together in one place, crazy thing turned in to who could trip the radar gun with the fastest time within the four city blocks (less than a 1/4 mile by about 100 Cystic Fibrosis group in the name of Jenny Smith (of Factory Five fame) Bill S. Hmm allright now *that* you’re going to have to elaborate on. Stephan Not only racing on the street, but doing it under "police supervision" Bill S. Bill S STREETRACING???? What’s the world come to? Stephan

Response:

  There is  a Shelby AC Cobra replicar running around here with a Chevy 502 big block crate engine in it. There’s also a ‘65 Mustang with a Chevy 350 here. No accounting for some folks’ taste.    BTW, if you think the sparkplugs are bad on some 5.0’s, you should try changing them on the ‘65 350 Mustang! He shoehorned the engine in with NO under the hood mods at all. He had to use the Vette ramhorns exhaust manifolds because there isn’t even room for headers without physically modifying the engine compartment! (He still has the original 289 and tranny and doesn’t want to ruin the collector value of the car.) He and his dad took almost six months figuring how to get the 350 in without modifying the Mustasng and finding all the parts he needed to do it. Some of the brackets are custom fabricated one-of pieces.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would have thought you could have at least heard them all running at Bill S. Well lets see….while 283 cobras are indeed very noticable. It’s still pretty tough to see them in ohio from florida. Stephan Stephan,    How could you miss 283 Cobra rumbling around the area surrounding Bill S. Hey let me know when it comes up next time…..maybe I’ll bring my fiero along & spank some cobras ( j/k!! unless I got nuff money ’till then to put my turbo’s in ) Stephan As part of our groups get together, we took over the main square of London, Ohio the day they held their annual Strawberry festival…….The chief of police in turn set up his own temporary drag strip down main street. Complete with an officer and a radar gun instead as many "A" type personalities together in one place, crazy thing burnout turned in to who could trip the radar gun with the fastest time within the four city blocks (less than a 1/4 mile by about 100 to Cystic Fibrosis group in the name of Jenny Smith (of Factory Five fame) till Bill S. Hmm allright now *that* you’re going to have to elaborate on. Stephan Not only racing on the street, but doing it under "police supervision" Bill S. Bill S STREETRACING???? What’s the world come to? Stephan

Response:

Question:

Pro: Quick to install Con: Looks imitation expensive uneven wear patterns w/ no repair options I have oak floors in my house.  A real pain in the neck to install but once in they are nice.  My parents installed Pergo. The installation was quick but now they live w/ something they hate.  Have heard a lot of good things about artificial wood flooring but all of it was from the manufacturers.  So far I can’t recall one person who was happy with it once intalled.                                      -Rick

Response:

: Could anyone give me the pros and cons of installing a non glue Pergo : Laminated floor in the kitchen. : : Arnold Carpenter Pros: It goes down in a snap Cons: there aren’t any (unless you totally ignore the installation directions given by the mfr. and fail to add glue in water-prone areas such as about the sink or laundry facilities). I laid down a few hundred sqft of Pergo Original in the front of the house a few years ago and have absolutely no regrets — it looks as good today after a lot of use as it did "fresh in the box".  This experience led to placing the Saltillo "tile" from Formica’s "Ceramix Collection" of click-lock-style flooring in the kitchen and "great room" a few months ago.  I did use glue in the seams in the "water prone" areas — just as Formica "suggests". We’re pleased with the choice(s) — and with proper planning ahead of time, the lay-down really is a "snap". — Steve www.ApacheTrail.com/house Mesa, AZ

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The floor that it is laid on must be very flat to keep the joints from unlocking.

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There are some others that I think are better than Pergo. WE had Fibo-Trespo installed in a hallway several years ago and we are happy with it. It is glued in the tongue and groove. The stuff has held up well nothing seems to hurt it and SWMBO likes it because it is easy to keep. She says that when it comes time to replace the kitchen floor we will go that way. It was much more natural looking than Pergo. Roy Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone give me the pros and cons of installing a non glue Pergo Laminated floor in the kitchen. Arnold Carpenter

Response:

Just a note on the wearability of Pergo. A year and a half ago, my wife and I moved into a house that had Pergo flooring installed in about half of the house. I set up our computer station in a part of the house that has Pergo flooring.  Having heard from the previous owners that they installed Pergo because of it’s durability, I didn’t worry about putting anything between my office chair and the Pergo flooring.  The office chair has five plastic castor wheels, with each wheel a sort of double castor. A year after setting up the computer station, and with day-to-day use of the office chair directly on the Pergo, there is now a two-foot, doughnut-shaped wear spot on the Pergo from the chair castors.  It slowly crept up on us so that we didn’t notice it at first, but when the light hits the floor right, there is a distinct dullish-looking worn spot on the surface of the Pergo.  And as far as I know, there is no fix for this other than to cover the spot with some type of mat or to replace the sections of Pergo. By the way, if someone doesn know if the surface of the Pergo flooring can be restored, please let us know.  I’ve basically chalked this one up to "live and learn." Al

Response:

I installed Wilsonart laminate flooring in my living room, dining room, and office.  Like the previous poster, I have a computer with a chair with 5 plastic casters.  But unlike him, there are no wear marks whatsoever after about 3 years.  This stuff is indestructible.  Its very easy to take care of.  I dropped a VCR in the living room and it didnt even leave a mark.  (The VCR wasnt so lucky).  Oh yeah, we had a major roof leak in the office.  Water was running down the wall like a waterfall.  Water went under the floor and came out the other side.  The floor curled up slightly at the joints, but a week later after it dried it completely flattened out and there is no evidence that it ever happened.  I highly recommend Wilsonart instead of Pergo.  It costs about the same (maybe a little cheaper).  It IS glued though.  It doesnt feel quite as nice as real wood and its a little loud if you walk on it with hard shoes, but I have no regrets. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone give me the pros and cons of installing a non glue Pergo Laminated floor in the kitchen. Arnold Carpenter

Response:

<brief snip Like the previous poster, I have a computer with a chair with 5 plastic casters.  But unlike him, there are no wear marks whatsoever after about 3 years.

I probably should have added that since part of our work involves web site design, and all of our accounting, etc. for our photography and web site businesses, we spend at least 8 hours per day cumulatively in that computer chair (which is, I’d guess, much more than the average home user). To Jeff:  How many hours per day over those three years do you all suppose you have spent on the Wilsonart floor at your computer chair? I’m just curious for comparative purposes. Al

Response:

Laminated flooring can be cheaper than traditional flooring and can be installed by a do it your self person with little additional tools.  I used my table saw to cut the pieces, I did by a $10 blade for my table saw and by the time I was done the blade went into the garbage dull. Laminate flooring takes a toll on blades. Other advanatages, much tougher than wood, low maintance. I installed laminated flooring about 16 months ago in my kitchen and dining room,  took about 12 hours to remove the carpet, prep the floor and install the flooring.  Prep is pretty minimal, you are allowed alot of varioation in the level of the floor vs vinyl. I also found out Pergo was NOT the brand too buy, several different shops that sold Pergo, did not recommend it highly.  The stores said their quality control has dropped.  I talked to a couple of installer who won’t install Pergo anymore because their customers are not happy with it.  Sorry I don’t know the why’s of it all..I  also did some research on the internet and Mannington and Formica came out pretty good.  I think the site was www.ifloors.com, a place out of washington state.  Don’t know if there still in business.  The Mannington and Formica being a good choice was confirmed by going to several stores and some reading at the library.  They  even had some videos showing how to install laminate flooring on line.  Pergo can be real cheap but I shopped around and got my Formica for the same price as the inexpensive Pergo line.  What costs money is the edging which they charge an arm and a leg for.  I found a wide variation in prices for laminated flooring of the same brand, style and color.  We called to numerous places before we bought and saved over 40%. I also attended a class at Home Depot on installing laminated flooring but bought my flooring from a small local store. Hope that helps guy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone give me the pros and cons of installing a non glue Pergo Laminated floor in the kitchen. Arnold Carpenter

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I’ve helped installed Pergo, but have never lived with it in any situation. One thought has come to mind: how do the castors look? Laminate is generally harder that the material of most castors. Perhaps the castors have worn down and the residue is stuck to the flooring. If this is the case, there’s probably a solution that will clean it up (perhaps Goof-Off?) — George Burdo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just a note on the wearability of Pergo. A year and a half ago, my wife and I moved into a house that had Pergo flooring installed in about half of the house. I set up our computer station in a part of the house that has Pergo flooring.  Having heard from the previous owners that they installed Pergo because of it’s durability, I didn’t worry about putting anything between my office chair and the Pergo flooring.  The office chair has five plastic castor wheels, with each wheel a sort of double castor. A year after setting up the computer station, and with day-to-day use of the office chair directly on the Pergo, there is now a two-foot, doughnut-shaped wear spot on the Pergo from the chair castors.  It slowly crept up on us so that we didn’t notice it at first, but when the light hits the floor right, there is a distinct dullish-looking worn spot on the surface of the Pergo.  And as far as I know, there is no fix for this other than to cover the spot with some type of mat or to replace the sections of Pergo. By the way, if someone doesn know if the surface of the Pergo flooring can be restored, please let us know.  I’ve basically chalked this one up to "live and learn." Al

Response:

I probably should have added that since part of our work involves web site design, and all of our accounting, etc. for our photography and web site businesses, we spend at least 8 hours per day cumulatively in that computer chair (which is, I’d guess, much more than the average home user).

It would depends on if that "average home user" has a copy of Evercrack..err, Everquest.  I’ve seen my (currently unemployed) roommate spend 16-18 hours a day, every day, for several weeks playing that game. -Rick

Response:

I installed Pergo laminate flooring in our living room and front entrance of the house (approx 300sq ft) in April of 1997 (5 years ago).  The flooring has stood up to use and abuse, including a dog. At the time of the installation Pergo was the way to go (for variety of styles and colour), but after that first floor I have installed three other laminate floors.  Two were from IKEA (strangely their packaging was identical to PERGO, and I was told produced by PERGO for them) and the third was a locking floor system. The IKEA flooring has lasted equally as well as the PERGO flooring.  The only advantage was the price difference. The locking flooring system was much easier to install and clean-up, but it was in an area that would not see any potential water leaks/spills. The lack of glue in the joints made me wonder what would happen in the event of a major water leak. I haven’t worked with but would avoid the $0.99 per square foot bargain flooring you see advertised, you get what you pay for.  And yes it ate the blade on the 10" compound mitre saw (now used exclusively for laminate flooring projects). Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laminated flooring can be cheaper than traditional flooring and can be installed by a do it your self person with little additional tools.  I used my table saw to cut the pieces, I did by a $10 blade for my table saw and by the time I was done the blade went into the garbage dull. Laminate flooring takes a toll on blades. Other advanatages, much tougher than wood, low maintance. I installed laminated flooring about 16 months ago in my kitchen and dining room,  took about 12 hours to remove the carpet, prep the floor and install the flooring.  Prep is pretty minimal, you are allowed alot of varioation in the level of the floor vs vinyl.

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To vruscelli: I would estimate that between us we spend 3 hours a day in the chair.  Also, we pretty much sit in one spot (we dont roll around the room like you would if you were moving from bookshelf to fax machine to computer) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <brief snip Like the previous poster, I have a computer with a chair with 5 plastic casters.  But unlike him, there are no wear marks whatsoever after about 3 years. I probably should have added that since part of our work involves web site design, and all of our accounting, etc. for our photography and web site businesses, we spend at least 8 hours per day cumulatively in that computer chair (which is, I’d guess, much more than the average home user). To Jeff:  How many hours per day over those three years do you all suppose you have spent on the Wilsonart floor at your computer chair? I’m just curious for comparative purposes. Al

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I’ve helped installed Pergo, but have never lived  with it in any situation. One thought has come to mind: how do the castors look? Laminate is generally harder that the material of most castors. Perhaps the castors have worn down and the residue is stuck to the flooring. If this is the case, there’s probably a solution that will clean it up (perhaps Goof-Off?)

Interesting suggestion.  We’ve tried some standard Pergo cleaner to no effect, but have not tried a stronger cleaner.  Certainly wouldn’t hurt to try in on a small spot and see if it worked.  Thanks for the idea, as I hadn’t thought of the floor actually wearing the chair out first.  ;-) Al

Response:

Plastic laminate flooring makes a good top for a router table – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone give me the pros and cons of installing a non glue Pergo Laminated floor in the kitchen. Arnold Carpenter

Response:

I installed Pergo laminate flooring in our living room and front entrance of the house (approx 300sq ft) in April of 1997 (5 years ago).  The flooring has stood up to use and abuse, including a dog. The locking flooring system was much easier to install and clean-up, but it was in an area that would not see any potential water leaks/spills. The lack of glue in the joints made me wonder what would happen in the event of a major water leak.

My wife and I bought laminate flooring from Mowhawk, we got the cheapest non-glue system we could for a "temporary" fix in the dining room.  We spent more on the moulding than the floor. It went together easy and has stood up very well, I can’t see any imperfections in it.  What is intersting is thatwe started with a glue together and didn’t get it tight enough.  We did a strip about 4 feet wide and stopped for the night.  In the morning we pulled it out and put it on the back deck to get rid of later.  Since the decking is splintering and we company coming over we left it there for a couple days.  The couple days is almost a year now in the rain and snow and although it has discolored it is still in good shape. I haven’t worked with but would avoid the $0.99 per square foot bargain flooring you see advertised, you get what you pay for.  And yes it ate the blade on the 10" compound mitre saw (now used exclusively for laminate flooring projects).

It is hard on saws.  The other thing to watch out for is SAWDUST!  The top coat on the flooring has very hard materials in it.  The sawdust can scratch the flooring so cut in a different location and make sure not to track the sawdust through the house.

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I put down about 150 s.f. in my kitchen maybe 5 years ago.  It’s a very high traffic area that originally had ceramic tile (in a kitchen?  Are you insane???), then 2 installations of peel & stick VCT (both of which wore out in less than a year).  I couldn’t be happier with the way the Pergo floor has held up to traffic, sliding chairs, spills, dropped pots and floods. All of the seams are glued, and I caulked the perimeter to contain any water.  It still looks like new.  It also still looks fake to the trained eye, but most people don’t look that closely.

<snip  So far I can’t recall one person who was happy with it once intalled. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                                      -Rick

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If this is the case, there’s probably a solution that will clean it up (perhaps Goof-Off?) Interesting suggestion.  We’ve tried some standard Pergo cleaner to no effect, but have not tried a stronger cleaner.  Certainly wouldn’t hurt to try in on a small spot and see if it worked.  Thanks for the idea, as I hadn’t thought of the floor actually wearing the chair out first.  ;-)

Hi Al,     If that doesn’t work the worn piece(s) can be replaced.  To do so requires routing out the entire damaged piece and then replacement.  The factory trained and certified installers are instructed in this procedure. It’s expensive to have done, but the floor can be repaired.     My Pergo kitchen floor has survived 5 years of abuse.  Four adults, two large Golden Retrievers and the only damage is a small chip when I dropped a 4′ florescent reflector from 8′ and it landed on a corner last year.  It’s hardly noticeable and we’re still debating on getting it fixed. — Jack Novak Buffalo, NY – USA

Response:

We installed a Wilsonart floor in our kitchen which comes in "tiles", but goes down the same as a Pergo floor and is essentially the same kind of floor. We have been very satisfied with it and it is easy to clean. The installer said that in a worst case scenario, a tile could be replaced with the right tools.  I hope that won’t be necessary.

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I’ve helped installed Pergo, but have never lived with it in any situation. One thought has come to mind: how do the castors look? Laminate is generally harder that the material of most castors. Perhaps the castors have worn down and the residue is stuck to the flooring. If this is the case, there’s probably a solution that will clean it up (perhaps Goof-Off?)

It’s the weight on the castors. You shoud use a rug and a plastic floor protector.

Response:

Pure junk.  Don’t waste your money.  Sorry that’s my opinion.  I know of few "pergo" or similar type product owners that have been really happy with these.  They don’t hold up to traffic, or spills (shows up in the seams). Could anyone give me the pros and cons of installing a non glue Pergo Laminated floor in the kitchen. Arnold Carpenter

Bill Lewis

Response:

It’s the weight on the castors. You shoud use a rug and a plastic

floor protector. Yes.  Now, please go back in time and tell me that a year ago.  ;-) Al

Response:

Could anyone give me the pros and cons of installing a non glue Pergo Laminated floor in the kitchen. Arnold Carpenter

Response:

Biggest negative= water spills in joints call spell BIG trouble. My dad had the pipe into the water filter unit leak and he lost 1/3 of his kitchen. POSITIVE= it was easy for him to replace the damaged section.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone give me the pros and cons of installing a non glue Pergo Laminated floor in the kitchen. Arnold Carpenter

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thing is, he hasn’t denied my suggestion (and it was originally a question) that most FF points are awarded to business flyers which are paid for by their employers. Thats unlikely, many got them by making purchases with credit cards etc. And many of those credit card (or charge card in the case of Diners Club) purchases may have been paid by an empoloyer. Bet that was bugger all of the points got with cards for purchases. I picked up over 100,000 QF points from Amex, and the only money I personally forked out to Amex was the annual Membership Rewards fee. Thanks boss … So I would expect there a plenty of Ansett FF’s who picked up a swag of their points from employer paid Diners CLub accounts.  Our company recently changed from Amex to Diners corp cards.  The only Ansett points I lost were those gained in a few months use of a corp Diners card.  No great loss and didn’t cost me personally, so I don’t miss them. Now my business expenses paid on Diners (by my employer) will earn me QF points to add to those I got from Amex. Out of all the points I have "earned" from credit/chrage card purchases, more than 3/4 have been from employer-paid expenses.

All completely and utterly irrelevant to how the bulk of the Ansett points were obtained. Bet the bulk of them came from purchases on cards by the individual who made the purchase.

Response:

Thanks Trevor for editing out and ever so neatly proving my point about obstructionism in this matter. Thanks Trevor for helping to ensure the AN pilots get just as comprehensively fucked over in 2002 as they did in 1989 – and by some of the same folks as well.. Some knob of festering green snot calling itself Fenn by name and If it’s none of our business take it out of this public forum. ASSHOLE!!

Well you’d know all about arseholes  Trevvy pond slime (if only you knew how spell it) in your anxiety to take it up the arse from some of the same folks who comprehensively screwed you over last time. Sounds like you must really enjoy it that way, asking for a repeat performance. Here – this is what the LA Times had to say this week about the beloved shiny arsed lawyers and accountants you are so bloody intent on protecting from public scrutiny and discussion- "This rotten barrel of apples is all encompassing. Down at the bottom, in the really contaminated slime, Enron/Andersen/et al. is about what we have allowed our nation to become." Yeah – well say it all doesn’t it – slime bag fen dwellers all wallowing around in it together.

Response:

And another one in the kill file! Bye Dave, you have nothing to say that I want to hear on this ng John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Trevor for editing out and ever so neatly proving my point about obstructionism in this matter. Thanks Trevor for helping to ensure the AN pilots get just as comprehensively fucked over in 2002 as they did in 1989 – and by some of the same folks as well.. Some knob of festering green snot calling itself Fenn by name and If it’s none of our business take it out of this public forum. ASSHOLE!! Well you’d know all about arseholes  Trevvy pond slime (if only you knew how spell it) in your anxiety to take it up the arse from some of the same folks who comprehensively screwed you over last time. Sounds like you must really enjoy it that way, asking for a repeat performance. Here – this is what the LA Times had to say this week about the beloved shiny arsed lawyers and accountants you are so bloody intent on protecting from public scrutiny and discussion- "This rotten barrel of apples is all encompassing. Down at the bottom, in the really contaminated slime, Enron/Andersen/et al. is about what we have allowed our nation to become." Yeah – well say it all doesn’t it – slime bag fen dwellers all wallowing around in it together.

Response:

And another one in the kill file!

Cheers – and don’t forget to include the author of my warm welcome to your group.

Response:

Oh dear, poor baby has lost his widdle frequent flyer miles and I’ve touched a nerve! I’d best watch out for flying dummies.(pacifiers) Thanks Trevor for editing out and ever so neatly proving my point about obstructionism in this matter.

Hey dipshit, this is a public forum. If you post a message here, expect to get other people expressing their opinions. If you’re an Ansett creditor and you’re mad about it, so what. You won’t get much sympathy in this newsgroup if you come in here talking about litigation. Talk to New Zealand. Thanks Trevor for helping to ensure the AN pilots get just as comprehensively fucked over in 2002 as they did in 1989 – and by some of the same folks as well.. Some knob of festering green snot calling itself Fenn by name and

Oh how clever, you’ve picked up a dictionary and found that a fen is a marsh or a bog, well I’m used to that. They didn’t call me swampy at school for nothing. Cohen, hmmm Thesaurus says "bird", obviously a turkey would be appropriate to you. If it’s none of our business take it out of this public forum. ASSHOLE!! Well you’d know all about arseholes  Trevvy pond slime (if only you knew how spell it) in your anxiety to take it up the arse from some of the same folks who comprehensively screwed you over last time. Sounds like you must really enjoy it that way, asking for a repeat performance.

I don’t know where your little turkey brain got that from, I have never worked for Ansett or Compass or Australian Airlines or TAA or Qantas so I don’t see how you could dream that I was screwed over during the pilots dispute, I in fact was one of the many GA pilots who refrained from being a scab at that time. When I left Australia I left a chief pilot position so I’m not bitter about where my career has taken me. As for the spelling of your nickname well I’ve had to make certain changes to vocabulary in order to better succeed in my present location. Here – this is what the LA Times had to say this week about the beloved shiny arsed lawyers and accountants you are so bloody intent on protecting from public scrutiny and discussion- "This rotten barrel of apples is all encompassing. Down at the bottom, in the really contaminated slime, Enron/Andersen/et al. is about what we have allowed our nation to become."

I don’t want to protect anyone, if you can go after the New Zealand management go for it. Yeah – well say it all doesn’t it – slime bag fen dwellers all wallowing around in it together.

You’re going to have to explain your closing statement to me, it doesn’t make much sense, and would you please spell my name correctly. It has two n’s unlike the word describing a swamp. That’s quite a different word. I’m sorry, maybe you are a little challenged in the spelling department and I shouldn’t pick on you. I apologize. — Trevor Fenn To Email me add an extra green to the address above. "Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just"                           The Star Spangled Banner                             Francis Scott Key                    

Response:

Thing is, he hasn’t denied my suggestion (and it was originally a question) that most FF points are awarded to business flyers which are paid for by their employers. Thats unlikely, many got them by making purchases with credit cards etc.

And many of those credit card (or charge card in the case of Diners Club) purchases may have been paid by an empoloyer.

Response:

Thing is, he hasn’t denied my suggestion (and it was originally a question) that most FF points are awarded to business flyers which are paid for by their employers. Thats unlikely, many got them by making purchases with credit cards etc. And many of those credit card (or charge card in the case of Diners Club) purchases may have been paid by an empoloyer. Bet that was bugger all of the points got with cards for purchases.

I picked up over 100,000 QF points from Amex, and the only money I personally forked out to Amex was the annual Membership Rewards fee. Thanks boss … So I would expect there a plenty of Ansett FF’s who picked up a swag of their points from employer paid Diners CLub accounts.  Our company recently changed from Amex to Diners corp cards.  The only Ansett points I lost were those gained in a few months use of a corp Diners card.  No great loss and didn’t cost me personally, so I don’t miss them. Now my business expenses paid on Diners (by my employer) will earn me QF points to add to those I got from Amex. Out of all the points I have "earned" from credit/chrage card purchases, more than 3/4 have been from employer-paid expenses.

Response:

Trevor Fenn said..  TF You’re going to have to explain your closing statement to me, it  TF doesn’t  make much sense, and would you please spell my name correctly.  TF It has two  n’s unlike the word describing a swamp. That’s quite a  TF different word. I’m  sorry, maybe you are a little challenged in the  TF spelling department and I  shouldn’t pick on you. I apologize. Hey Trev. Don’t worry about him. He has waded in mouth (or fingers) flapping against anyone who opposes a class action to recover lost FF points. He’s pretty well at his wits’ end given the personal abuse that he’s flinging everywhere. Thing is, he hasn’t denied my suggestion (and it was originally a question) that most FF points are awarded to business flyers which are paid for by their employers. And if he’s one of those it’s understandable why he’s so indignant when we question his "right" to them. After all, he has no problems whatsoever in shit canning lowlife union bludgers like myself who don’t deserve (and who don’t get) perks like his own (presumably, of course, that he does get such perks). Take out an "l" for email reply

Response:

Thing is, he hasn’t denied my suggestion (and it was originally a question) that most FF points are awarded to business flyers which are paid for by their employers.

Thats unlikely, many got them by making purchases with credit cards etc.

Response:

Question:

youre college experience sounds quite a bit like mine was. Couldn’t talk to people before then or whgile there. Still can’t.

Response:

I have found that, being as shy as I am, that mixing with groups is very difficult. Going out and mixing with people is a lot easier said then done. I feel a lot like this guy Matt. When I was in college I was in a major that was predominantely female, but I never went out with any of them. I barely socialized with any of them. I went to one of the biggest university’s in the country and went on exactly 2 dates. Both were one time things. Meeting people seems to be impossible no matter where I am. I am almost always doing things alone. All of the friends I grew up are married and have kids now, so it’s hard to get together with them. I wish I could tell this guy something good, but if I did I would be lying.

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"Matt" <m…@iname.com> wrote in message <news:qVoB7.322849$j65.86086049@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > Anybody know of any good ways to get out this hell? (that doesn’t involve > killing myself)? > Matt

A lot of people have given good advice to you already, such as going to a gym on campus and excercising, etc. However, the one thing that really helped me was getting a job on campus. This broke up the routine that is generally bringing you down. First of all, my supervisors are very supportive people who will work around my schedule. Second of all, it allowed me to interact with people on a more consistent basis. Before, I could weeks without saying a word to anyone, besides "I’ll have a #5, supersized….." Generally, there are also other students who will be working with you, and this will allow you to converse and meet other students, and maybe you can develop some kind of social life from that. And at the very least, you can have some extra spending money. Out of all the things I have tried in college, getting a job is the thing that has helped most.

Response:

hey mate i know wat u mean , i can relate to alot of what u are saying . if you ever need to talk email or im me cos id like 2 help, hope things will get better for you at uni etc . by the way what is the depression newsgroup u mentioned

Response:

"naturallyweird" <naturallywe…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:d29812ea.0110241136.3b97ec48@posting.google.com… > I partially agree.  If you can carry yourself as someone who is cool > (regardless of how many ‘friends’ you have), others will approach. …. >If you keep that in > mind, paradoxically you will likely be more appealing to others.

That is the biggest load of pig crap i’ve ever heard. You don’t make friends by NOT trying.

Response:

"Matt" <m…@iname.com> wrote in message <news:knGB7.334435$j65.87816730@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > "naturallyweird" <naturallywe…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:d29812ea.0110241136.3b97ec48@posting.google.com… > > I partially agree.  If you can carry yourself as someone who is cool > > (regardless of how many ‘friends’ you have), others will approach. >  …. > >If you keep that in > > mind, paradoxically you will likely be more appealing to others. > That is the biggest load of pig crap i’ve ever heard. You don’t make friends > by NOT trying.

Where did I say that you shouldn’t try?  My point is that, when interacting with others, you need to be very casual.  It will make you appear mysterious (to those inclined to like you in the first place), thus getting them to do much of the work for you (and, remember, they may have the power to invite you into friendship networks).  Look – shybies rarely have much in their lives to discuss, and interrogating others is bad.  Thus – as opposed to doing nothing (which I don’t advocate) – a mix of a few questions and a few tidbits of interesting info is the best way for getting others interested.

Response:

The thing is, a few months ago people were telling me "hang in there, you’re going to university pretty soon, it’s gonna be a different environment, things are going to be better". I predicted that this is bullshit, and i’m going to hate all my classes and make no friends. I tried to fight this becoming true, but it did nonetheless. Don’t tell me to switch majors or something, because the truth is, this program is what appeals to me the most. (better said, this is what i would hate the least) And don’t blame me for the fact that i didn’t approach people and make friends in time, because it was impossible, firstly because almost everyone already knew each other from residence (which i am not in), but most importantly, my illness was so bad that i was incapable of looking at another person without wanting to tear their head off. Kinda hard to make friends that way. And my horrible lack of social skill otherwise, did not help much in this either. Anyhoo, i got an increase in my Celexa dosage, which seems to be helping a bit (i guess). But everyone is now unapproachable, because they are all always surrounded by friends. I can’t just join them out of nowhere, because then i would be the outsider. The only way it would work, if i approached people individually, but like i said, the only people at this point who are not constantly ALWAYS surrounded by friends at this point, two months into the year, are LOSERS like me! The last thing i need is friends that will just bring me even more down. I considered joining clubs so i can meet people with common interests, but the fact is, i am not interested in anything. What depresses me even more is the fact that when i was rejected by that girl this spring/summer, i was told "you’re going to be in university next year, there’s lots of girls there". Hehe, not in engineering! And the girls in other programs, well, you don’t really see them at all, unless you’re in residence, which i’m not. I was planning to drop in on classes when i have time, on courses for programs that have more girls in it, and meet some there, but then it occured to me "what the hell am i talking about, I can’t even find friends in a huge lecture hall". It’s the same problem as i described above. Damnit. Every fucking day is exactly the same. All alone by myself all day….i go to school, listen to a bunch of borning lectures, stare at a bunch of people who HAVE friends, always surrounded by them, and therefore unapproachable, come home, do a bunch of painful homework that i hate or something of the sort, then go to sleep wishing i will die in my sleep. I hate it when people tell me that "it’s bound to get better, since it can’t get any worse". What kind of stupidass statement is that? What the hell are they basing that on? Anybody know of any good ways to get out this hell? (that doesn’t involve killing myself)? Matt

Response:

maddman…@yahoo.com (maddman) wrote in message <news:bea807ca.0110240642.c19a082@posting.google.com>… > "Matt" <m…@iname.com> wrote in message <news:qVoB7.322849$j65.86086049@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > > The thing is, a few months ago people were telling me "hang in there, you’re > > going to university pretty soon, it’s gonna be a different environment, > > things are going to be better". I predicted that this is bullshit, and i’m > > going to hate all my classes and make no friends. I tried to fight this > > becoming true, but it did nonetheless. > So you made a prediction, and it came true.  Self fulfilling prophecy > my man.  Negative self talk is BAD – it will screw you up before you > even get started.

There is no point in being this harsh on him.  He clearly didn’t know how to accomplish the things he wanted to do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Don’t tell me to switch majors or something, because the truth is, this > > program is what appeals to me the most. (better said, this is what i would > > hate the least) > Bah – do what you love.  Anything else would be foolish. > > And don’t blame me for the fact that i didn’t approach people and make > > friends in time, because it was impossible, firstly because almost everyone > > already knew each other from residence (which i am not in), but most > > importantly, my illness was so bad that i was incapable of looking at > > another person without wanting to tear their head off. Kinda hard to make > > friends that way. And my horrible lack of social skill otherwise, did not > > help much in this either. > > Anyhoo, i got an increase in my Celexa dosage, which seems to be helping a > > bit (i guess). > > But everyone is now unapproachable, because they are all always surrounded > > by friends. I can’t just join them out of nowhere, because then i would be > > the outsider. The only way it would work, if i approached people > > individually, but like i said, the only people at this point who are not > > constantly ALWAYS surrounded by friends at this point, two months into the > > year, are LOSERS like me! The last thing i need is friends that will just > > bring me > > even more down. > SCREECH!  Stop RIGHT NOW.  You are assassinating your self image.  Let > me get this straight.  Only losers don’t have a horde of friends > around them.  You don’t have a horde of friends around you, so you’re > a loser.  THere are other people that don’t have hordes of friends, > but they must be losers too. > Bull-fucking-shit.  THe only one who decides if you’re a loser is YOU. >  These other guys – maybe they are thinking the same thing you are, > maybe they feel left out of they crowds too.  Make your own crowd, > talk to them, give them a chance.  Give yourself a chance.

I partially agree.  If you can carry yourself as someone who is cool (regardless of how many ‘friends’ you have), others will approach. ‘Friends’ are overrated, anyway.  (Connections are usually superficial, and their loyalties are fleeting.) If you keep that in mind, paradoxically you will likely be more appealing to others.  (As it is in dating, neediness is bad when trying to make friends.) > > I considered joining clubs so i can meet people with common interests, but > > the fact is, i am not interested in anything. > Nothing at all?  C’mon, if your looking for buddies and not especially > chicks, you can even join up in geeky things, like LUGS and such. > From what CVB says, anime conventions sound like decent hunting > grounds too.

There ought to be some college message boards that discuss things in which you may be interested.  (New computer technologies, perhaps.) My biggest piece of advice is to move on campus next semester, with at least one roommate whom you have carefully selected, if you can stomach such an arrangement.

Response:

"Laura" <lmandtheb…@mailandnews.com> wrote in message

news:1a465f08.0110240125.4a085182@posting.google.com… > I’m sorry. I don’t know what Celexa is, but is it for depression? Are > you seeing someone for that?

Yes and yes. I am seeing a doctor (gp), and just started seeing a counciller. >. Consider approaching people based on > *your* interest in them, rather than on their apparent availability.

That’s the idea, but i don’t know how to approach them. Do you?

Response:

"Matt" <m…@iname.com> wrote in message <news:qVoB7.322849$j65.86086049@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > The thing is, a few months ago people were telling me "hang in there, you’re > going to university pretty soon, it’s gonna be a different environment, > things are going to be better". I predicted that this is bullshit, and i’m > going to hate all my classes and make no friends. I tried to fight this > becoming true, but it did nonetheless.

So you made a prediction, and it came true.  Self fulfilling prophecy my man.  Negative self talk is BAD – it will screw you up before you even get started. > Don’t tell me to switch majors or something, because the truth is, this > program is what appeals to me the most. (better said, this is what i would > hate the least)

Bah – do what you love.  Anything else would be foolish. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And don’t blame me for the fact that i didn’t approach people and make > friends in time, because it was impossible, firstly because almost everyone > already knew each other from residence (which i am not in), but most > importantly, my illness was so bad that i was incapable of looking at > another person without wanting to tear their head off. Kinda hard to make > friends that way. And my horrible lack of social skill otherwise, did not > help much in this either. > Anyhoo, i got an increase in my Celexa dosage, which seems to be helping a > bit (i guess). > But everyone is now unapproachable, because they are all always surrounded > by friends. I can’t just join them out of nowhere, because then i would be > the outsider. The only way it would work, if i approached people > individually, but like i said, the only people at this point who are not > constantly ALWAYS surrounded by friends at this point, two months into the > year, are LOSERS like me! The last thing i need is friends that will just > bring me > even more down.

SCREECH!  Stop RIGHT NOW.  You are assassinating your self image.  Let me get this straight.  Only losers don’t have a horde of friends around them.  You don’t have a horde of friends around you, so you’re a loser.  THere are other people that don’t have hordes of friends, but they must be losers too. Bull-fucking-shit.  THe only one who decides if you’re a loser is YOU.  These other guys – maybe they are thinking the same thing you are, maybe they feel left out of they crowds too.  Make your own crowd, talk to them, give them a chance.  Give yourself a chance. > I considered joining clubs so i can meet people with common interests, but > the fact is, i am not interested in anything.

Nothing at all?  C’mon, if your looking for buddies and not especially chicks, you can even join up in geeky things, like LUGS and such. From what CVB says, anime conventions sound like decent hunting grounds too. > What depresses me even more is the fact that when i was rejected by that > girl this spring/summer, i was told "you’re going to be in university next > year, there’s lots of girls there". Hehe, not in engineering!

LOL – former networking student attesting to that! And the girls > in other programs, well, you don’t really see them at all, unless you’re in > residence, which i’m not. I was planning to drop in on classes when i have > time, on courses for programs that have more girls in it, and meet some > there, but then it occured to me "what the hell am i talking about, I can’t > even find friends in a huge lecture hall". It’s the same problem as i > described above.

Try the library, student center, concerts, other things on campus. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Damnit. > Every fucking day is exactly the same. > All alone by myself all day….i go to school, listen to a bunch of borning > lectures, stare at a bunch of people who HAVE friends, always surrounded by > them, and therefore unapproachable, come home, do a bunch of painful > homework that i hate or something of the sort, then go to sleep wishing i > will die in my sleep. > I hate it when people tell me that "it’s bound to get better, since it can’t > get any worse". What kind of stupidass statement is that? What the hell are > they basing that on? > Anybody know of any good ways to get out this hell? (that doesn’t involve > killing myself)? > Matt

You are unhappy, right?  The only way into social circles is to socialize.  Realize that yes, you might get embarassed.  You might get rejected.  But are either of those things worse than the solitude you have now? One problem for shy people is that it is basic human nature to seek the familiar.  That’s why large crowd make shybies nervous – not familiar, might be dangerous (or even MUST be dangerous, depending). Even if it is unpleasant, we will seek the familiar if left to our own devices. The way out is to push at your comfort zone.  Do something every day to push at your comfort level.  Ask someone for the time, say hello to a stranger, ask someone if you can join them in the cafeteria, whatever pushes your boundaries.  Before long, your comfort zone has changed to include other people. Good luck man, maddman

Response:

"maddman" <maddman…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:bea807ca.0110240642.c19a082@posting.google.com… > SCREECH!  Stop RIGHT NOW.  You are assassinating your self image.  Let > me get this straight.  Only losers don’t have a horde of friends > around them.  You don’t have a horde of friends around you, so you’re > a loser.  THere are other people that don’t have hordes of friends, > but they must be losers too.

My point was, i don’t need friends like that, who will bring me down, but the opposite kind of people, who are social, and/or in rez, so they can get me invited to keg parties in rez and stuff. The other kind of people won’t get me anywhere socially. Besides I normally can’t stand people who are similar to me in such ways.

Response:

>Every fucking day is exactly the same. >All alone by myself all day….i go to school, listen to a bunch of borning >lectures, stare at a bunch of people who HAVE friends, always surrounded by >them, and therefore unapproachable, come home, do a bunch of painful >homework that i hate or something of the sort, then go to sleep wishing i >will die in my sleep.

This is what my college years consisted of. I made it through and so will you. I wasn’t too interested in any of the girls in my classes either. I spent weeks without saying a word. Who would I have talked to, and why would I want to talk to them anyway? It’s hard to gain any motivation in such a situation. I was in accounting……I didn’t really want to talk accounting with anyone. I doubt you’re exactly anxious to rap about engineering with your peers, either. There was nothing to say to these people. They were a bunch of conservative, one-dimensional people who think the Cure is something you get at a doctor’s office. >I hate it when people tell me that "it’s bound to get better, since it can’t >get any worse". What kind of stupidass statement is that? What the hell are >they basing that on? >Anybody know of any good ways to get out this hell? (that doesn’t involve >killing myself)?

Go to the campus gym. Exercise. If you can gain the nerve, ask some girl how to use a machine or something. I never could (and still can’t) gain the nerve, but maybe you can. At least there are often attractive girls in the gym, which is a lot more than I can say for engineering or accounting courses.

Response:

"Trance909" <trance…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20011023225802.14330.00000814@mb-cf.aol.com… > without saying a word. Who would I have talked to, and why would I want to talk > to them anyway? It’s hard to gain any motivation in such a situation. I was in > accounting……I didn’t really want to talk accounting with anyone. I doubt > you’re exactly anxious to rap about engineering with your peers, either.

Well, actually, i would want to talk to them about stuff, maybe not engineering, but whatever. I would like to be their friend. But i don’t see how it’s possible to join them, with them having friends of their own, and always being around them. > Go to the campus gym. Exercise.

I did that today…. > At least there are often attractive girls in the gym, which is a > lot more than I can say for engineering or accounting courses.

…and there weren’t any (not at the time anyway).

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Matt <m…@iname.com> wrote: > But everyone is now unapproachable, because they are all always surrounded > by friends. I can’t just join them out of nowhere, because then i would be > the outsider. The only way it would work, if i approached people > individually, but like i said, the only people at this point who are not > constantly ALWAYS surrounded by friends at this point, two months into the > year, are LOSERS like me! The last thing i need is friends that will just > bring me > even more down.

Yeah, it’s terrible, the feeling of being surrounded by so many happy normal people and being completely alone. > What depresses me even more is the fact that when i was rejected by that > girl this spring/summer, i was told "you’re going to be in university next > year, there’s lots of girls there". Hehe, not in engineering! And the girls > in other programs, well, you don’t really see them at all, unless you’re in > residence, which i’m not. I was planning to drop in on classes when i have > time, on courses for programs that have more girls in it, and meet some > there, but then it occured to me "what the hell am i talking about, I can’t > even find friends in a huge lecture hall". It’s the same problem as i > described above.

Engineering has hardly any girls in it and the few there are, are of course, "in high demand".  Once you get in the work force, it’s no better.  Worse yet, most women don’t really seem to "get it" or be very interested in talking about it either.

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"Matt" <m…@iname.com> wrote in message <news:qVoB7.322849$j65.86086049@news4.rdc1.on.home.com>… > But everyone is now unapproachable, because they are all always surrounded > by friends. I can’t just join them out of nowhere, because then i would be > the outsider. The only way it would work, if i approached people > individually, but like i said, the only people at this point who are not > constantly ALWAYS surrounded by friends at this point, two months into the > year, are LOSERS like me! The last thing i need is friends that will just > bring me > even more down.

That’s not true. Being around people a lot can be oppressive to your average introvert — a lot of people *choose* not to be particularly social. That may not be the case with you, but you shouldn’t feel as though you’re a loser because you’re not doing what crowds of people are doing. > I considered joining clubs so i can meet people with common interests, but > the fact is, i am not interested in anything. > What depresses me even more is the fact that when i was rejected by that > girl this spring/summer, i was told "you’re going to be in university next > year, there’s lots of girls there". Hehe, not in engineering! And the girls > in other programs, well, you don’t really see them at all, unless you’re in > residence, which i’m not. I was planning to drop in on classes when i have > time, on courses for programs that have more girls in it, and meet some > there, but then it occured to me "what the hell am i talking about, I can’t > even find friends in a huge lecture hall". It’s the same problem as i > described above.

It’s much harder in a huge lecture hall to connect with people than it is in a small classroom. It’s hard, though, regardless. I’m sorry you’re finding it so difficult. > Damnit. > Every fucking day is exactly the same. > All alone by myself all day….i go to school, listen to a bunch of borning > lectures, stare at a bunch of people who HAVE friends, always surrounded by > them, and therefore unapproachable, come home, do a bunch of painful > homework that i hate or something of the sort, then go to sleep wishing i > will die in my sleep. > I hate it when people tell me that "it’s bound to get better, since it can’t > get any worse". What kind of stupidass statement is that? What the hell are > they basing that on?

They’re trying. People don’t know what to say. > Anybody know of any good ways to get out this hell? (that doesn’t involve > killing myself)? > Matt

I’m sorry. I don’t know what Celexa is, but is it for depression? Are you seeing someone for that? This is a difficult time for you and you should have whatever support you can find in the real world. Please don’t feel as though the fact that people have friends means they’re unapproachable. Some people can cope with being on their own; other people can’t, so they latch onto the first person or group that comes along — that doesn’t mean they’re lasting friendships. A lot of people are probably still looking for friends, they’re just looking out from the safety of a group. Consider approaching people based on *your* interest in them, rather than on their apparent availability. lm

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Question:

Everything I’ve seen price wise about ASP services says they only make sense at this time for someone with quite a few remote offices that doesn’t want to link them with expensive high-speed phone lines. For single office installs, the prices I’ve seen on ASP’s are all higher than what you could buy and operate the software for. Generally speaking the ASP’s are currently only making sense for a very limited market. http://www.s-consult.com MAS90 , MAS200 and Accounting Software Consulting Mail: wayne at s-consult_com Disclaimer: We are consultants for MAS90 accounting software so if this message is giving advice on accounting software you should naturally consider it biased and use our thoughts in conjunction with your own research.

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With support for GPA going away next year, does anyone know if there are any companies offering extended support for GPA?  We will most likely be moving to Dynamics, but with the cost, it may be kind of close to the end of support for GPA and we would like to at least have the comfort of knowing there are some people out there we could turn to for support if need be. Also, any advantages/disadvantages of going with an ASP for Dynamics versus hosting it on our own server?

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With support for GPA going away next year, does anyone know if there are any companies offering extended support for GPA?  We will most likely be moving to Dynamics, but with the cost, it may be kind of close to the end of support for GPA and we would like to at least have the comfort of knowing there are some people out there we could turn to for support if need be.

Unfortunately, most support companies will be following suit and offering more support on Dynamics and eEnterprise than GPA.  I, unfortunately, do not know of any companies off-hand that would provide the extended support you request.  I know we are only supporting Dynamics and eEnterprise as well as Solomon (All MS GP Business Solutions products).  I will however, keep a lookout for you. Also, any advantages/disadvantages of going with an ASP for Dynamics versus hosting it on our own server?

The answer to this question would actually involve more dialog than I would prefer to put on this post.  In a nutshell though, as with any ASP solution, one of the biggest advantages is cost of ownership. Essentially, the ASP would bear the cost of the system maintenance and upgrades and you merely pay a monthly fee for usage based on your requirements.  This reduction in cost of ownership may also spill over into the ability to reduce your FTE’s in the IT department since you are essentially outsourcing your accounting technology needs. One disadvantages most people perceive is security – do you feel comfortable with someone else maintaining your information on their server.  I personally don’t see any issues with that as long as you do your research on the ASP ahead of time.  Another concern I have heard voiced is the reliability and level of support you will be getting from your ASP.  Again, this can become a non issue by doing adequate research and protecting yourself and your business in any contract you sign with the ASP. There are actually a lot more items to consider, but these represent a couple of the major concerns.  Let me know if you’d like to correspond and discuss more in depth.  I will do my best to point you in the right direction. Regards, Dan

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Question:

Thanks for depressing me further. db

Sorry. William R. James — No Silly Auctions – Sell your Stuff in an on-line Flea Market. http://www.kudzucountry.com   Kudzu Country Store & Flea Market

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<alt.activism added Good. Then maybe those "poor" will go to work so I am not forced to fork over 43% of my income, (all taxes included) to pay for them. I wonder how much of your post is motivated by a personal desire on your part to have us pay for your upcoming elective, and un-necessary, surgery ? db

43% ???  Are you kidding?  Unless you are doing a great deal of "under the table" work, it’s closer to 65%. Perhaps you neglected to account for local or state shakedowns. Perhaps you forgot about the fact that income taxes are accumative "value added" taxes as well as income.  This is because when you buy a widget, you are also paying the income taxes of everyone involved in the financing, production, accounting, shipping, stocking, selling, advertising, and even disposing of the widget. That doesn’t include the fuel taxes, liscensing, import/export, telephone, and other taxes which have to be paid by the companies and vendors which also have any association with the widget. The price of the widget includes all those taxes.  Then you have to pay sales tax on top of that, plus the taxes on the labor you traded to make the money to buy the widget, fuel taxes to get you to work and to the widget store, and whatever liscensing is involved in your work and to own a widget.  And we haven’t even mentioned the unfunded mandates imposed upon the all the companies mentioned above, from social security to social programming, all of which are hidden taxes which are also paid by you when you buy your widget. And don’t buy the electric widget unless you want to include the taxes on the electricity, and the electrician’s income etc…  etc…. Aren’t widgets expensive?  :) William R. James — No Silly Auctions – Sell your Stuff in an on-line Flea Market. http://www.kudzucountry.com   Kudzu Country Store & Flea Market

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Thanks for depressing me further. db

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Question:

recently decided that I want to be an accountant very badly. I am a few years out of highschool and do not know how to finance my education. I own a home but it has little equity. I also do not make very much money right now. I took accounting in highschool and loved it. Also scored very high. I was at the top of all the Accounting classes in my grade. Just not sure what to do. Good at handling money, just not good at finding it…..Heidi

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Before I started my career as a CPA I was in the same situation as you. My solution was to attend night school. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – recently decided that I want to be an accountant very badly. I am a few years out of highschool and do not know how to finance my education. I own a home but it has little equity. I also do not make very much money right now. I took accounting in highschool and loved it. Also scored very high. I was at the top of all the Accounting classes in my grade. Just not sure what to do. Good at handling money, just not good at finding it…..Heidi

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Heidi I have some information on a scholarship. I don’t know enough about your circumstances to know if you qualify but here it is: The Women in Transition Scholarship (formerly known as the Displaced Homemakers Scholarship) offers the possibility of a four year, $4,000 per year, scholarship to a student of accounting. These applicants are women who, either through divorce or death of a spouse, are required to become the sole source of support for themselves and their families (single parents in other circumstances are also considered.) While supporting themselves, they are also attempting to earn a degree in accounting. This scholarship is targeted primarily at incoming freshman, current freshman, or women returning to school with enough credits to qualify as freshman. To get more information or an application contact: The Educational Foundation for Women in Accounting P.O. Box 1925 Southeastern, PA  19399-1925 Phone 610-407-9229 You may also want to check out the American Woman’s Society of CPA’s website at www.awscpa.org. Local affiliates award scholarships. Here in Minnesota, scholarships are only open to juniors and seniors but requirements vary by affiliate. There is also an American Society of Women Accountants. I don’t know their address but there is probably a link from the AWSCPA site. Good Luck! Wendy Klager

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I am assuming that you live in the US.  If so, there are many different types of financial assistance available.  I you qualify you can receive Pell Grants, subsidized loans and unsubsidized loans.  This is in addition to any grants or scholarships you might receive.  There are a multitude of those as well.  You might look fastweb also.  You can look on http://www.studentservices.com/fastweb/. Any scholarships and/or grants you receive will reduce the amount of subsidized and unsubsidized student loans you might be awarded. I waited for 35 years to finish my degree.  In the end I had to start over. I plan on graduating in December 2000, and it will be worth every penny I have invested in it.  GO FOR IT!

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Have you looked into state funded programs?  I don’t know what state you are in but here in New York there is a stste funded Tuition Assistance Program [TAP]. Unfortunately it looks like the program is being cut. Visit you local bank or college admissions office for student loans. Good luck, Armand Albano – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – recently decided that I want to be an accountant very badly. I am a few years out of highschool and do not know how to finance my education. I own a home but it has little equity. I also do not make very much money right now. I took accounting in highschool and loved it. Also scored very high. I was at the top of all the Accounting classes in my grade. Just not sure what to do. Good at handling money, just not good at finding it…..Heidi

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Question:

*Unforcast clouds happen*.  When moist air meets falling temperatures, pilots should monitor the temperature/dewpoint spread with care and be prepared to encounter an unforcast layer, especially over the many regions of the country where wx reporting stations are sparse.

This is very true, and anyone who doubts it is a fool. One night when I was returning to DC from Ohio the forecast was a VFR pilot’s dream. Clear skies, no clouds forecast, visibility unrestricted, and a wide temp-dewpoint spread. I spent the first half of the flight watching the lights of distant cities. Suddenly I felt like I was in the middle of a disco. Flipping off the strobes and turning on the landing light showed that I was in the middle of a very dense cloud. Had I been VFR this could have been catastrophic. As an instrument rated and current pilot operating on an IFR flight plan, I merely flipped the landing light back off and started logging actual. — Reece R. Pollack CP-ASMEL-IA — N1707H Piper Arrow III (based KGAI)

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*Unforcast clouds happen*.   This is very true, and anyone who doubts it is a fool. One night when I was returning to DC from Ohio the forecast was a VFR pilot’s dream. Clear skies, no clouds forecast, visibility unrestricted, and a wide temp-dewpoint spread. I spent the first half of the flight watching the lights of distant cities. Suddenly I felt like I was in the middle of a disco. Flipping off the strobes and turning on the landing light showed that I was in the middle of a very dense cloud. Had I been VFR this could have been catastrophic. As an instrument rated and current pilot operating on an IFR flight plan, I merely flipped the landing light back off and started logging actual.

One question: did you contact FSS and offer a pirep?  Pireps can clue pilots who are still on the ground to the presence of clouds several hours before the clouds show up on satellite and persuade the wx briefers to change the forecast.  A pirep of unforcast clouds is a definate gift to those who may be less well equipped to handle a chance encounter! One comment: a VFR encounter with unforcast clouds can be anything from "not much of a deal" to a fatal accident.  It need not be catastrophic.  It is in the control of the pilot, how prepared he or she is to deal with the situation.  As we know, an instrument rating does not confer automagic ability to deal with clouds unless the plane is equipped with working gyro instruments, and the pilot is current and capable.  Nor does the lack of an instrument rating preclude ability to deal with an unforseen situation safely. Snowbird

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I agree, the logged activity suggests a lack of proficiency to handle much beyond an uneventful flight under ideal conditions. The thing that went wrong is just what the previous thread was about, except the poster of that anecdote was able to handle the situation. In this case it seems to be a major element in the causal chain.

Well, OK – I think we’re arguing semantics.  The previous poster was able to handle the situation because he was current and proficient. It’s a situation that a current an proficient pilot SHOULD be able to handle, even a low time VFR-only pilot.  There is specific practical training provided to handle that situation.  But a pilot who, for one reason or another, is not proficient (severe lack of currency, fatigue, illness, drugs/alcohol, whatever) will likely not handle what is a routine situation in night flying even though he may be quite capable of flying under ideal conditions.  Let’s face it – any idiot can fly under ideal conditions, and many do. It’s when the shit hits the fan that it counts. BTW – I got some email and the gist of it is that we are speculating in a vacuum – which I started and I’m sorry I did- that most of the 25 flights were very recent, that many of them were with instructors, and showed a sharp pilot who unfortunately opted to launch after participating in a mountain rescue and was absolutely dead tired.  I find this just as likely – fatigue can  be just as bad as lack of currency in destroying pilot proficiency. Michael

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With regard to proficiency, I don’t know.  I personally can tell if I don’t fly for a week and after a month I make myself shudder, but I posted about this once before and was informed by several people that many pilots, especially younger ones, can not fly for months and be just as proficient as they were when they got their ticket.  Am I a marginal pilot who loses it fast, or do other pilots simply not notice some of what they’re losing, I don’t know.  Maybe both.

I’m the same way.  In November, I went from flying 10-15 hours a month to flying once a week.   My flying sucks.  It’s just awful.  I was coming in on final the other day in a 172.  I had put about 30 degrees of flaps in on base, but I was too high and slow on final.  I put in the rest of the flaps, which helped the descent angle, but brought my airspeed down to 55.  Then I got "stuck" – I couldn’t slip since I was so slow, but I was still way too high.   Finally, my CFI said, "You probably should just point the nose down." Sure enough, it worked. And I felt like an idiot.  I make mistakes like that when I’m not current.  It’s almost scary…. I did splurge a month or so ago and flew 3 hours in one week – sure enough, I was doing just fine as soon as I knocked all the rust off… I think people who do all their training flying once every couple weeks are fine with doing that afterwards – they’re used to having to de-rust every time they get in an airplane, and they find ways to deal with it.  I’m not used to it, and I’m downright scary when I’m not current… Tina Marie (who did an intro helicoptor flight on Sunday – gawd, they’re a lot of work!) —     skydiver – PP-ASEL       *   An apostrophe does not mean, "Yikes! http://www.neosoft.com/~tina  *   Here comes an ’s’!" – Dave Barry

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completely.  It seemed to me to be tempting fate to come up and bite me in the butt one day to do this trip very often without the IA.  As you rightly

My first thought when reading this sentence – "Why would it be any better if he had his mechanic with him?" Tina Marie —     skydiver – PP-ASEL       *   An apostrophe does not mean, "Yikes! http://www.neosoft.com/~tina  *   Here comes an ’s’!" – Dave Barry

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Tina, Come on now, get with the program.  It’s not even A&P anymore.  It’s AMT (IIRC) and if they have their inspectors authorization it should be AMT/IA (at least that’s what my friend told me was in the letter the FAA sent him). IA is for Instrument Airplane. John Stricker — why I had to put it in.  If one of you real humans wants to contact me: "I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian" In article

t, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – completely.  It seemed to me to be tempting fate to come up and bite me in the butt one day to do this trip very often without the IA.  As you rightly My first thought when reading this sentence – "Why would it be any better if he had his mechanic with him?" Tina Marie —    skydiver – PP-ASEL       *   An apostrophe does not mean, "Yikes! http://www.neosoft.com/~tina  *   Here comes an ’s’!" – Dave Barry

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One comment: a VFR encounter with unforcast clouds can be anything from "not much of a deal" to a fatal accident.  It need not be catastrophic.  It is in the control of the pilot, how prepared he or she is to deal with the situation.  

Agreed. I will tell you that if anything will upset your sense of balance, it’s the strobes alternating from side to side. Your visual clues to "up" and "down" are based on light coming from above, and when the light alternates from side to side, it seems like the world is rocking from side to side too. As we know, an instrument rating does not confer automagic ability to deal with clouds unless the plane is equipped with working gyro instruments, and the pilot is current and capable.  

I once climbed into a cloud in a Pitts S2B. We were trying to gain enough altitude to do spins, and were climing in 500 foot steps. The cloud certainly looked like it was still a couple of thousand feet above us, but then the world suddenly vanished. I immediately tried to switch to the gauges, but there weren’t any. None. If there’s a T&B, it’s in the back cockpit. My instructor calmly said "don’t do anything except pull back the throttle." When we decended out of the cloud a few seconds later I was glad we were in an aerobatic aircraft as we were certainly in an aerobatic attitude. Nor does the lack of an instrument rating preclude ability to deal with an unforseen situation safely.

I’m a big proponent of instrument ratings, but I worry about those people who get their ratings "just in case" but don’t maintain proficiency. I think this generates false confidence, and makes it even more likely that you’re going to exceed your capabilities. — Reece R. Pollack CP-ASMEL-IA — N1707H Piper Arrow III (based KGAI)

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Come on now, get with the program.  It’s not even A&P anymore.  It’s AMT (IIRC) and if they have their inspectors authorization it should be AMT/IA (at least that’s what my friend told me was in the letter the FAA sent him).

I didn’t know that had changed yet – I thought it was still a proposal. Tina Marie —     skydiver – PP-ASEL       *   An apostrophe does not mean, "Yikes! http://www.neosoft.com/~tina  *   Here comes an ’s’!" – Dave Barry

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Tina, I *think* the designation has changed, but the new requirements to be one are still in NPRM.  A friend showed me a letter he got from ICT FSDO that mentioned the change but I’m not sure now if it was a "do it this way" letter or a "this is how we’d like it to be in the future" letter.  I’ll try to remember to ask him next time I"m in the shop. John Stricker — why I had to put it in.  If one of you real humans wants to contact me: "I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian" In article

t, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on now, get with the program.  It’s not even A&P anymore.  It’s AMT (IIRC) and if they have their inspectors authorization it should be AMT/IA (at least that’s what my friend told me was in the letter the FAA sent him). I didn’t know that had changed yet – I thought it was still a proposal. Tina Marie —    skydiver – PP-ASEL       *   An apostrophe does not mean, "Yikes! http://www.neosoft.com/~tina  *   Here comes an ’s’!" – Dave Barry

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I think people who do all their training flying once every couple weeks are fine with doing that afterwards – they’re used to having to de-rust every time they get in an airplane, and they find ways to deal with it.  I’m not used to it, and I’m downright scary when I’m not current…

        It is quite amazing how quickly you lose the ability to do things that you don’t practice.  I did my PPL about 10 years ago and the night rating about 5 years ago.  My routine flying was just fine and I did the occasional simulated dead stick, which was broken off at 500′AGL         When I started my commercal ticket I realized that I had forgotten how to fly.  I went up with the instructor and was able to take the forced approaches under 500′ AGL and was zipping right over the field every time.  My precuationary’s were a big mess.  Oddly enough my instruments were great, go figure.         The point is that every pilot should make a point of doing frequent practice of every manouver.

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I did the occasional simulated dead stick, which was broken off at 500′AGL

At 500 AGL you broke off the stick?  Doesn’t that make the plane difficult to control???

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Snowbird, One of the biggest factors in my deciding to get my Instrument rating was because a frequent trip for us is Central KS to Western SD and back.  Quite frankly, I have never been completely comfortable on that trip at night VFR, even though I made the trip at night several times. Going across parts of NE along that route, if you go direct, there are very few yardlights, traffic, etc and if the vis is sub-par at all, they are gone completely.  It seemed to me to be tempting fate to come up and bite me in the butt one day to do this trip very often without the IA.  As you rightly pointed out, any night flight has the potential to become an Instrument flight, and here I was going out over an area that I had a damn good idea was going to become one, even on a CAVU night.  Even though I NEVER had any problems, it just wasn’t a smart thing to do VFR only. I’m sure there are many other areas of the country that are very similar. Eastern WY comes immediately to mind.  Areas of the SW.  Western CO-into Nevada.  All pretty desolate country. Old man fate may still bite me one day through one means or another, but at least I’ve improved the odds a little in my favor. John Stricker — why I had to put it in.  If one of you real humans wants to contact me: "I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian" I guess my personal take on the situation is this: I am concerned about flawed pilot knowledge.  Judgement is only as good as the knowledge upon which it’s based, after all. I think pilots should be aware that: *Any* night flying has the potential to require sudden transitions to instruments due to loss of horizen and visual clues.  This is true even over relatively populated areas on CAVU nights, if one happens to turn to a direction with no visual clues. *Any flight between layers* is essentially instrument flight.

<<<VALID POINTS SNIPPED TO AVOID THE BANDWIDTH POLICE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Snowbird

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Looking at the preliminary report it seems the accident was sadly preventable.  I had a few questions after reading the report, but they were about details more than the cause.  The cause seems pretty clearly related to that previous thread…

Does it really?  I think the real cause is spelled out quite clearly: From http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/NYC/99A041.htm: Examination of the pilot’s logbook revealed that from November 1991 to December 1998, the pilot logged a total of 25 flights. During that time frame his logbook reflected a total of 0.4 hours of simulated instrument, and 4.7 hours of night. I think that says it all.  A pilot who flies, on average, once every 100 days over the course of years, is simply a crater looking for a grid reference.  He can barely manage the normal tasks of a normal flight and will make a smoking hole the first time anything goes wrong. I feel sorry for the pilot, sorrier still for the passenger – but honestly, I would not get in an airplane with a pilot who was flying once every 100 days for the past 7+ years unless I was qualified in the aircraft and had access to the controls, especially at night. Michael

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The cause seems pretty clearly related to that previous thread… Does it really?  I think the real cause is spelled out quite clearly: From http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/NYC/99A041.htm: Examination of the pilot’s logbook revealed that from November 1991 to December 1998, the pilot logged a total of 25 flights. During that time frame his logbook reflected a total of 0.4 hours of simulated instrument, and 4.7 hours of night. I think that says it all.  A pilot who flies, on average, once every 100 days over the course of years, is simply a crater looking for a grid reference.  He can barely manage the normal tasks of a normal flight and will make a smoking hole the first time anything goes wrong.

Actually I think the real cause is one level deeper than even that. I agree, the logged activity suggests a lack of proficiency to handle much beyond an uneventful flight under ideal conditions. The thing that went wrong is just what the previous thread was about, except the poster of that anecdote was able to handle the situation. In this case it seems to be a major element in the causal chain. But the first step in that chain was not the lack of logbook entries (we’re assuming that there was no unlogged flight time), nor the loss of visual references over unlit terrain in possibly restricted visibility, nor fatigue after a long day climbing (and the possible emotional effects of assisting in rescuing another climber). It was the decision to launch under those conditions. The report hints at "get home itis" with the comparision of the forecast for that night with the forecast for the next day.  But there was still a warning flag for that night, there was a forecast of clouds below the level of the highest terrain in the area.  Yes, it was legal VFR, but it was also predictably uncertain that any specific location and altitude would be above minimums.  Launching a night flight to go over a layer scattered to broken and under an overcast looks like a decision fraught with peril even given reasonable currency and proficiency, because it’s too close to IMC with no good way to assure inadvertent VFR into IMC won’t follow.   The *real* cause was flawed judgement in starting the engine, and that’s more fundamental than even inactivity.  IMHO, of course! –Brucem ps – some interesting arithmetic is to look at the logged flights, and figure what’s left after accounting for the BFRs and practice for them!

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<… I agree, the logged activity suggests a lack of proficiency to handle much beyond an uneventful flight under ideal conditions. The thing that went wrong is just what the previous thread was about, except the poster of that anecdote was able to handle the situation. (…) The report hints at "get home itis" with the comparision of the forecast for that night with the forecast for the next day.  But there was still a warning flag for that night, there was a forecast of clouds below the level of the highest terrain in the area.  Yes, it was legal VFR, but it was also predictably uncertain that any specific location and altitude would be above minimums.  Launching a night flight to go over a layer scattered to broken and under an overcast looks like a decision fraught with peril even given reasonable currency and proficiency, because it’s too close to IMC with no good way to assure inadvertent VFR into IMC won’t follow. The *real* cause was flawed judgement in starting the engine, and that’s more fundamental than even inactivity.  IMHO, of course!

I guess my personal take on the situation is this: I am concerned about flawed pilot knowledge.  Judgement is only as good as the knowledge upon which it’s based, after all. I think pilots should be aware that: *Any* night flying has the potential to require sudden transitions to instruments due to loss of horizen and visual clues.  This is true even over relatively populated areas on CAVU nights, if one happens to turn to a direction with no visual clues. *Any flight between layers* is essentially instrument flight. *Any* flying under an overcast or in haze has the potential for inadvertant VFR into IMC, day or night.  All it takes is a situation where there’s nothing to see (dark ground, greyish water), such that the obstruction to visibility called "clouds" can’t readily be discerned.  There is nothing to give depth perspective, and by the time you start wondering if the haze is thickening to clouds up ahead, you might be *in* a cloud. *Unforcast clouds happen*.  When moist air meets falling temperatures, pilots should monitor the temperature/dewpoint spread with care and be prepared to encounter an unforcast layer, especially over the many regions of the country where wx reporting stations are sparse. Now if a pilot knows these things, and wilfully lifts off anyway without being prepared to meet them, I would agree completely that bad judgement is involved. But I think a lot of pilots, especially low time pilots, don’t know these things.  We learn to study wx briefings and stay away from the clouds they contain, but maybe we don’t learn to treat briefings with the skepticism they deserve.  We might fly at night over a populated area where the ground lights are lovely and the flying is smooth and maybe we don’t learn how tough night flying can be when the horizen vanishes and the only visual clue is a line of lights 45 degrees off horizontal and your ears start screaming "YOU’RE TURNING FOOL!" while you’re straight and level.  We learn to assert that pilot error is involved, every time a pilot flies VFR into IMC and maybe we don’t learn to think about, what conditions make IMC hard to see-and-avoid? The difference between a pilot who flies a lot and one who lets the certificate gather dust is, a pilot who flies a lot will hopefully gain knowledge about all these things while proficient enough to meet the challenges they pose. It’s easy to look at someone else’s decisions in hindsight, and critique them.  In fact, if we start with a premise that accidents almost always involve pilot error, critique of that pilot’s judgement is guaranteed.  But maybe it’s not judgement, maybe it’s knowledge. With regard to proficiency, I don’t know.  I personally can tell if I don’t fly for a week and after a month I make myself shudder, but I posted about this once before and was informed by several people that many pilots, especially younger ones, can not fly for months and be just as proficient as they were when they got their ticket.  Am I a marginal pilot who loses it fast, or do other pilots simply not notice some of what they’re losing, I don’t know.  Maybe both. I read that accident report and the excerpts of the wx briefing they reported, and I thought to myself "God bless that pilot, he thought he was doing everything right and that forcast suckered the h**l out of him."  BTDT, lived to post about it. Snowbird

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Question:

Does anyone know where I can get some info on a good data extraction software package, primarily to be used in the audit function of a public accounting firm?

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Try these links: http://www.spaldingsoft.com/index.shtml http://www.codemicro.com/hl/PERSNC3956.html http://www.datajunction.com/ — Paul MacFarlane American Riviera Software http://www.business-plaza.com remove *SPAMLESS* from reply address – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know where I can get some info on a good data extraction software package, primarily to be used in the audit function of a public accounting firm?

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Does anyone know where I can get some info on a good data extraction software package, primarily to be used in the audit function of a public accounting firm?

Depends on what you want to extract from, but I use Data Junction heavily — not for audit work, but for database conversion.  Also, they make a product I couldn’t live without, called Cambio.  Before it, I could extract almost anything I wanted with Unix utilities sed and grep.  But Cambio offers 10 times the flexibility to grab stuff out of reports and stick it into a database.  You ought to talk to the Data Junction people.  Somewhere in Austin, Texas, I think… David

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I use Microsoft Access for this. It will read ODBC files, in particular btrieve which is/was the database engine for several mid range accounting packages. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know where I can get some info on a good data extraction software package, primarily to be used in the audit function of a public accounting firm?

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Question:

writes: I remember learning to cook chicken in many, many creative ways for dinner every single day and buying less expensive everything just to squeeze out a few dollars every month when I could buy a few more colors of wools, cottons and a book! Good thing I wasn’t into silk threads in those days!

chicken? whats chicken? LOL  mostly do the hambuger thing here, if that….some favorite lo budget dinners here are spaghetti with butter and parmesean, no sauce, but is really  alright…mac and cheese and stewed tomatos…plus some others Mona

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After posting to the silk "thread" tonight, I got to thinking about how I managed to buy stash in my early student days when we didn’t have much money for extras. It made me to wonder what other stitchers do to squeeze out money to support an addictive hobby! I remember learning to cook chicken in many, many creative ways for dinner every single day and buying less expensive everything just to squeeze out a few dollars every month when I could buy a few more colors of wools, cottons and a book! Good thing I wasn’t into silk threads in those days! — Lula http://www.woolydream.com Needlework Adventures

Hey, this sounds familiar. I learned how to make a pound of ground beef stretch for a month back when I was first out on my own. Developed a real fondness for beans & legumes, too. And rice, of course. I didn’t have enough money to squeeze out for hobbies then, so I counted on holidays and birthdays for my stash. Now I have a little system for my savings. I have 4 little coin bowls on the counter in my dressing room. Pennies, nickles, dimes & quarters. I sort my change out at night (I leave about 45 cents in my wallet; the rest goes into the bowls). Each time I fill the bowls, I roll the coins and either put the $$ in the bank or spend it on it’s designated purpose: Pennies are for library fines. Nickles are for snacks/sweets like expensive desserts I like to get occasionally. Dimes are for my Buy-a-serger fund. Quarters are for XS and sewing stuff. The only disadvantages are that you have to roll the coins and sometimes the library doesn’t like getting rolled coins–at least, until you remind them that they could be looking at $3.50 in loose coins. Then, suddenly, they’re pretty happy to have the coins all neatly rolled. I refuse to spend $20 on one of those automatic coin-stacker things and I’ve heard they aren’t accurate, so I just have to roll them by hand. Our local grocery store has a machine that will charge you 10 cents on the dollar to roll coins, but I’m not giving away anything! My credit union in pretty nice about supplying me with coin wrappers, and as long as my name & acct number are on the wrappers they don’t mind my turning in coins for deposits. You’d be surprised at how quickly this method adds up. Alicia — X/usa/DBF+3/-/-/5C/1D/X/OH/:-X/P/GG-NG/Wo/DMC/M/B/B/R~/S-/Kc/ E/-*/-*/Patrick Stewart, Mel Gibson/Elizabeth Peters/Everlasting Gobstoppers, Chili Cheese Fritos, chocolate *don’t care one way or the other

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We were talking about this some time ago (well, a long time ago) and one stitcher said she adds a few dollars to her grocery bill every time she shops, getting the few dollars back for her stash money. I thought that was a good idea – and use it occasionally myself. Sure helps me resist those impulse buys to help justify adding on a dollar or two to every shopping trip! Carol

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Besides setting aside a certain amount from each pay check to support my habit, I also clip coupons and send in rebates.  Any $$$ received from those goes straight to the stitching purse.  Since I took the time to clip the coupon or send in for the rebate, I consider it my "pay"!  Works for me! Sally in WV – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After posting to the silk "thread" tonight, I got to thinking about how I managed to buy stash in my early student days when we didn’t have much money for extras. It made me to wonder what other stitchers do to squeeze out money to support an addictive hobby!

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Ginger gives me money every week, and then I give it right back to her… Plus I pick up something small almost every time I go in there, like a skein of silk…it spreads out the pain a little! I’ve got a Flower Fairy tin box full of nickels and dimes for my framing money, too. (Quarters are for laundry, pennies go to DF’s hobbies.) AustinAnne — Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post. <Discussing an image of a black rectangle silhouetted against the Martian landscape "That is the top of the calibration target, that is _not_ in fact a monolith."–NASA TV commentator, 7/5/97 "Fine. Done. Let’s eat." — G’Kar.

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2)  Make gifts for some co-workers (only the one’s that will appreicate the amount of work involved ) small desk pieces or book marks then I can take my expenses related to that as a business expense.

LOL! in my former life (BK – before kid) i worked in accounting (i love numbers) and did taxes regularly and somehow i don’t think this is a valid "business expense"   ; but it did give me a chuckle on a saturday morning!!   (Top news story…. cross stitch addiction can land you in jail)  <snicker just felt like yanking your chain, have a good weekend! Buttons Visit our family page http://members.aol.com/we3reeds

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I have a calednar where I give myself a quarter for each of the following: 1) Exercise 2) Homework 3) Chores 4) Not going out for food while at work (except the morning orange juice and newspaper) 5) Practicing clarinet 6) Stitching for a half an hour on something I’m not fond of At the end of the month, I use half of it to cover part of my layaway at Stitchery Row and the other half goes into my piggy bank and when the bank reaches $100 it goes to helping pay off a credit card.   To send e-mail remove "nospam.nospam" from the address. Do not send unsolicited advertising or junk e-mail to this account. Current projects: 2.5 more coasters (an iris, a sunflowers, and some red-orange flower); Oscar the Grouch, the first sampler in my EGA correspondence course; Nancy Whitley’s filigree heart, a beginning Hardanger project kit from anchor designed by Nancy Whitley which is coming out beautifully,You are what you eat, others for a total of 15.   GOAL:  Complete at least three of the 15 by the end of the month.

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With both my DH and I disabled, money is tight. We take ours and some neighbors’ soda and beer  recycleables back and the  $$ goes into a jar for extras. I work part time but it’s a feast or famine financially. when I have a good month I can spend a bit on needlework, but it has to share with my quilting stash ((-: My husband started to smoke a pipe again ( which I don’t like him to do because of s heart but you know men!) and we agreed that each time he buys a little pouch of tobacco for about $2, I get $2 for my "addiction". I am still waiting for that windfall! Jane

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It made me to wonder what other stitchers do to squeeze out money to support an addictive hobby!

I’ve got my dh and in-laws pretty well trained, still working on my side of the family.  For birthdays, Christmas, and Mother’s Day I only want one thing — S.E.X. cash or gift certificates (LS, SOCS, or Nordic Needle).  I promise to be thrilled when I open the cards and again when I get home from shopping. Joy "Is it so small a thing To have enjoyed the sun, To have lived light in the spring, To have loved, to have thought, To have done?"      –M. Arnold

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Well, I don’t find ways to squeeze out more money…I usually find ways to make my stash spending seem like less money.  For example…have decided I really really want to do Sharon Cohen’s Golden Age Sampler in silks…we’re talking $60-75 here.  So I’ve got a shopping list in my wallet, and every time I go to a stitching store for any reason, I’ll pick up one skein of silk.  At $3-4 a visit it doesn’t seem like much.  And then in a year or so I’ll have all the materials I need to do the sampler.  (And maybe in that amount of time I’ll have finished a few UFOs so that I’ll feel better about starting it!) Even DH couldn’t argue too much with that logic Julie — Julie Gritton aka Mommy aka The Secret Pal Godmother Disclaimer:  Anything objectionable gets blamed on the 4-year-old. Check out the Stitchers’ Secret Pal Page!  http://www.gritton.org/pal

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1)  I  swap stash with friends.  Some things I bought and haven’t done and have decided no longer interest me I will trade for something someone else has and no longer wants to do. 2)  Make gifts for some co-workers (only the one’s that will appreicate the amount of work involved ) small desk pieces or book marks then I can take my expenses related to that as a business expense. 3)  I shop sales.   4)  I bought a preferred stitcher card at my local needlework shop. Annual fee of $20, but I get 10% off on all non sale merchandise, and twice a year I get one shopping day with 20% off.  ;-) Cindy in PHX

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(AChrist787) writes: Having your kids leave home and leave your checkbook is truly a wonderful thing.

Ain’t it the truth?  We have four children and had three in college at the same time.  We have paid for college for 22 years. Whew!  Now my stiching stash is growing with leaps and bounds.  Not only is there more money for stitching, there is more time to stitch.  Ain’t it just great? Rita in Indiana   : ) A little more laughter, a little less worry, a  little more kindness, a  little less hurry.

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I don’t have to worry about it so much now that the kids are all grown and gone, but there was a long spell where we had our souls mortgaged to the orthodontist for 4 kids, and then later when we were paying for college for all four – a total of 10 years with three of them in college at once for 3 years and the twins for the last year.  My stash wasn’t nearly what it is now, and I learned to only stitch on one project at a time because that was all I could afford. I bought only what I needed for each project and believe me my stash has burgeoned since then.  Having your kids leave home and leave your checkbook is truly a wonderful thing. Smiles…Anne Anne Christopherson "Old roses are full of instructions on how to live right."

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writes: I have that little savings bank where I put each 5.-DM coin which occurs to be in my purse after 8 p.m. == sometimes hard (too many coins!) but rewarding!

I also have a change bank – you’d be suprised how fast that change adds up!! Bonnie (Bon-Bon)

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It made me to wonder what other stitchers do to squeeze out money to support an addictive hobby!

Hi all! I would clip coupons religiously, then the grocery money saved by couponing became "mine".  Double couponing was a real treat! Lee

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It made me to wonder what other stitchers do to squeeze out money to support an addictive hobby!

Well, I gave up the hairdresser… let it grow again. It seems that one straight cut every 12 or 24 month will do. And haridresser visits are expensive = makes nice money for stash! I (nearly) gave up eating — no that is not true – I gave up the nonsense- food like chips, salty stitcks, peanuts == some money saved, a lot of weight lost ! I asked each and everybody to sponsor my addiction with donations of pure mere money instead of flowers/ sweets/ other gifts  for birthday and Christmas. = works fine I have that little savings bank where I put each 5.-DM coin which occurs to be in my purse after 8 p.m. == sometimes hard (too many coins!) but rewarding! and there are hundreds of other ways to pick up some extra money for stash (fibers, fabrics ,books…) The only astonishing thing is that I still want more,  more more ) I could bet that there are even more "ingenious" ways of squishing some extra money out …. Share them , please Martina "Ch