Question:
If you still want the benefits of the vigorous boil (better hot break and hop utilization) without having to collect that much runoff, just add some plain water to the kettle, either at the start of the boil, or partway through. FWIW, if you’re really losing 2 gallons in 60 minutes, I do think you could back the burner down a little more too…
You know, he could place a LID over the kettle to stop the evaporation. Maybe just Crack it. and he won’t lose as much if he’s worried about it… I try to get 7+ gal, from the sparge and boil to 5+ somewhere round 1.5-2.0 hours. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —
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Just out of curiousity, do you have have 7.5 gallons at the start of the boil or is that when you start heating? Just wondering, you may actually be loosing 1/4 to 1/2 gallon in the time it takes to bring it up to a boil. I usually leave my kettle about 90% covered until I get to within 10 degrees of boiling, then leave it all the way off. Cheers! – Jeff
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Howdy Jim, I get a good boil off too. Wonder if it’s altitude related. Here in Denver, water boils right around 200f. That would require proportionally less flame than at lower altitudes, I suppose. And that gets me wondering if barometric pressure and humidity play any role in boil off rates…
To a good first approximation neither will affect boiloff rates. The amount of *energy* it takes to boil off some water, and the temperature at which boiling occurs, are not linearly related. The humidity is less of a factor. If I dig back in my old physical chemistry books I can find more, if you care. –arne DISCLAIMER: These opinions and statements are those of the author and do not represent any views or positions of the Hewlett-Packard Co.
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Good point, Jeff – you surmize correctly. I’m starting out with 7.5 gallons of wort, but I’m not sure how much I lose before teh boil actually begins. However, like you, I also put a lid on the keg (slightly ajar) ubtil I get close to boiling. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Just out of curiousity, do you have have 7.5 gallons at the start of the boil or is that when you start heating? Just wondering, you may actually be loosing 1/4 to 1/2 gallon in the time it takes to bring it up to a boil. I usually leave my kettle about 90% covered until I get to within 10 degrees of boiling, then leave it all the way off. Cheers! – Jeff
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I have a King Cooker. I usually start out with 7.8 gallons to end up with around 5.3 gallons in a 2 hour boil. — Robin The Poconos
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?
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I also use a King Kooker and typically lose 1.25 gal / hr. My boiling goal is to boil as vigorous as possible without boiling over. If I were you, I would check the calibration of your kettle and do not simmer your wort. —–ActiveX
| I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker | burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to | evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of | wort. | | I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly | vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up | simmering instead of boiling. | | Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?
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Howdy Jim, I get a good boil off too. Wonder if it’s altitude related. Here in Denver, water boils right around 200f. That would require proportionally less flame than at lower altitudes, I suppose. And that gets me wondering if barometric pressure and humidity play any role in boil off rates… -Brett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?
Response:
If you still want the benefits of the vigorous boil (better hot break and hop utilization) without having to collect that much runoff, just add some plain water to the kettle, either at the start of the boil, or partway through. FWIW, if you’re really losing 2 gallons in 60 minutes, I do think you could back the burner down a little more too… — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?
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You can also try partially covering the kettle. I find I can maintain vigerous boil w/ lower heat if the pot is 1/2 or 2/3 covered. As long as you’re venting some steam, you won’t build up DMS. Whenever I’ve toured breweries, I’ve always been amazed at how small the kettle vents are. Drew
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you still want the benefits of the vigorous boil (better hot break and hop utilization) without having to collect that much runoff, just add some plain water to the kettle, either at the start of the boil, or partway through.
Response:
FWIW, if you’re really losing 2 gallons in 60 minutes, I do think you could back the burner down a little more too…
Well, last night I started with just over 7.5 gallons in the keg (slightly more than half full), and let it go for an hour at what could best be callled a "modest" boil. It was clearly boiling, but if I had backed off the propane at all it would have reduced to a simmer. Accounting for the half gallon or so left in the kettle and absorbed by the hops (leaf, not pellets!), I figure I lost about two gallons during the boil. What would happen if I left the keg partially covered during the boil so that at least some of the steam condensed and dripped back? Would that effect the hot break or hop utilization? I’m not worried about a boilover since there’s more than enough excess capacity.
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Howdy Jim,
He’s dead, Jim. Sorry, i just had to. another irrelavant post I know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I get a good boil off too. Wonder if it’s altitude related. Here in Denver, water boils right around 200f. That would require proportionally less flame than at lower altitudes, I suppose. And that gets me wondering if barometric pressure and humidity play any role in boil off rates… -Brett I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?
Response:
That’s about what I koose in my converted keg over the course of an hour. I don’t understand what the problem is…you know the boiloff rate, you compensate. Doesn’t really matter what other people get, it’s knowing what your system does. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?
Response:
I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?
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Question:
I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul
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Not before they release Train Simulator 2001 Professional, which includes the Japanese Bullet Train and French TGV. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul
Response:
on his bank bert Not before they release Train Simulator 2001 Professional, which includes the Japanese Bullet Train and French TGV.
I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul Thank you for your reply. Regards BERT WebEditor "World of Flightsimulator" http://www.fly.to/worldoffs
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Well, I guess there will be an Internet version of the game where you can be a virtual trainspotter, and collect the virtual loco numbers. Sounds loads of fun to me … you must be real geek not to appreciate an evening of doing this!
in message I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software?
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…[snip]… I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software?
Whereas, with FS2000 you: take off fly land look out the window – see small blobs go by. If that’s worth $50 so it a train sim if that’s your thing. — Regards, Bob,
Response:
Personally I think it’s a great idea…if it uses real world tracks and scenery especially. I’ll bet it sells well too… …[snip]… I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software?
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Response:
awesome! a train simulator. they’ve done it again. Very unique products they produce. I still love space simulator and imagine myself going on deep interstellar sabbaticals. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul
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I quote from MS…. Lifelike engineer’s control panels, scenery and weather; and accurate elevations and terrain data mirror real-world train travel. Player activities can include anything from keeping passenger time schedules while managing unforeseen barriers and negotiating freight through mountain passes in winter storms to navigating some of the world’s busiest commuter lines. "Microsoft Train Simulator" comes from the simulations group at Microsoft distinguished for developing the world’s best-selling PC-game software, "Microsoft Flight Simulator." Long synonymous with exacting standards of quality and realism, the simulations group at Microsoft is dedicated to providing both flight and rail fans with experiences that are "as real as it gets." Read all about it at: http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/press/2000/jul00/TrainPR.asp To a pilot (real or otherwise) the above might seem quite boring – but that’s precisely what most people (esp. wives) think of us bringing a 737 in on a dark & stormy night… Live & let live – Nick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – awesome! a train simulator. they’ve done it again. Very unique products they produce. I still love space simulator and imagine myself going on deep interstellar sabbaticals. I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul
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Joking aside now, what would be quite cool would be for Microsoft to merge all these different simulation environments into one single online virtual reality. Thus when flying my Boeing 737 out of Heathrow I see some train simulators managing the dodgy signals at Clapham Junction and a bunch of Spitfires dogfighting over Biggin Hill. As I climb to 30kft over the North Sea, I see some F18’s take off from their carrier to engage some target over Bosnia, etc. In other words, when are the games manufacturers going to develop a single Open Standard for simulation which means that there is *one* on-line gaming room with all the virtual reality going on all around it? ADSL should support the bandwidth required… History might get a bit muddled – e.g. birth of the Roman Empire going on with a stealth fighter flying overhead – but what the hell, this is virtual reality! Paul
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I quote from MS…. Lifelike engineer’s control panels, scenery and weather; and accurate elevations and terrain data mirror real-world train travel. Player activities can include anything from keeping passenger time schedules while managing unforeseen barriers and negotiating freight through mountain passes in winter storms to navigating some of the world’s busiest commuter lines. "Microsoft Train Simulator" comes from the simulations group at Microsoft distinguished for developing the world’s best-selling PC-game software, "Microsoft Flight Simulator." Long synonymous with exacting standards of quality and realism, the simulations group at Microsoft is dedicated to providing both flight and rail fans with experiences that are "as real as it gets." Read all about it at: http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/press/2000/jul00/TrainPR.asp To a pilot (real or otherwise) the above might seem quite boring – but that’s precisely what most people (esp. wives) think of us bringing a 737 in on a dark & stormy night… Live & let live – Nick awesome! a train simulator. they’ve done it again. Very unique products they produce. I still love space simulator and imagine myself going on deep interstellar sabbaticals. I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul
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…. and as you fly past towns you could even see accountants and bank managers slogging away in offices, on tiny little word and excel programs, as we head off to the coast (dodging 109’s and the mayhem & madness of the traffic below) ;-) …… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – all these different simulation environments into one single online virtual
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LOL LOL LOL!!!!! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I guess there will be an Internet version of the game where you can be a virtual trainspotter, and collect the virtual loco numbers. Sounds loads of fun to me … you must be real geek not to appreciate an evening of doing this! in message I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software? —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
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LOLOLOL!!! A fun thread for once! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. and as you fly past towns you could even see accountants and bank managers slogging away in offices, on tiny little word and excel programs, as we head off to the coast (dodging 109’s and the mayhem & madness of the traffic below) ;-) …… all these different simulation environments into one single online virtual
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To a pilot (real or otherwise) the above might seem quite boring – but that’s precisely what most people (esp. wives) think of us bringing a 737 in on a dark & stormy night… Live & let live – Nick
I know what you mean. My wifes always taking the mickey when I’m flying. Actually it’s quite embaressing with her in the room. sbd
Response:
To the original question re MSTS: I’ve heard 1st quarter 2001. There is another new trainsim Trainmaster 4.0 coming out by 9/1. For those who will never get to drive a real train, it’s the next best thing (and more complicated than you may appreciate). Simulators are used to train real engineers, just like pilots. Also riverboat pilots. You have to love trains, of course, or the subject will seem as dry and boring as this email. New simulations might include our simulated selves watching our simulated selves playing simulation games ad infinitum. Hmm. Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com
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Personally I think it’s a great idea…if it uses real world tracks and scenery especially. I’ll bet it sells well too…
While I’m not a "train nut", those that are will most likely run trains in the sim to mimic the operations of a real railroad. Now there are many types of railroads, eras, and specialization’s. Try running two trains in opposite directions on a single track mainline with only one siding that isn’t long enough to hold either train via a CTC panel. Care to figure out how it’s done in real life ? Or what about trying to control the movements of a coal hauling railroad through the Appalachians to the Virginia Tide water area, while balancing the empty returning trains for more loads of coal. My point is that just because we as flight simmers don’t understand the complexities of railroading, doesn’t mean that it’s boring or will be so to those that have an interest in the iron rails and it’s operations. Joel Willstein
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I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/). Does anyone have any news about when Combat Train Simulator is coming out? Paul
I’m actually looking forward to this. I’ve always had a fascination with trains (as well as aircraft and most other forms of transport). Perhaps we’ll have "virtual railroads" (CSX, Amtrak, etc.) just like the flightsim community has "virtual airlines". — Regards, Kurt Weber ROW Software and Web Design http://www.rowsw.com
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"Microsoft Flight Simulator." Long synonymous with exacting standards of quality and realism, the simulations group at Microsoft is dedicated to providing both flight and rail fans with experiences that are "as real as it gets."
LOL! ROTFL! ROTFLMAO! does anyone really believe that?
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I notice Microsoft are going to be releasing Microsoft Train Simulator soon (http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/).
Bah. I can just picture it. "Climb and maintain FL70" "Unable" "Turn left heading 050" "Unable" "Fer chrissake, DO something!!!" <Hooooooooooot Nah. 
Heh, I could probably waste a few hours fooling around with it though. Cheers, /ft
Response:
If train operation is so boring then why people keep building model railroads in their basements? With a simulated rail network, there is no limit to imagination. Now just imagine virtual train crashes 
For that, I hope that Microserfs will be more creative than in early versions of MS Flight Simulator (cracked windshield).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally I think it’s a great idea…if it uses real world tracks and scenery especially. I’ll bet it sells well too… While I’m not a "train nut", those that are will most likely run trains in the sim to mimic the operations of a real railroad. Now there are many types of railroads, eras, and specialization’s. Try running two trains in opposite directions on a single track mainline with only one siding that isn’t long enough to hold either train via a CTC panel. Care to figure out how it’s done in real life ? Or what about trying to control the movements of a coal hauling railroad through the Appalachians to the Virginia Tide water area, while balancing the empty returning trains for more loads of coal. My point is that just because we as flight simmers don’t understand the complexities of railroading, doesn’t mean that it’s boring or will be so to those that have an interest in the iron rails and it’s operations. Joel Willstein
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I cant wait to just blow the whistle or toot the horn or whatever you do to get the cows off the track.
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My point is that just because we as flight simmers don’t understand the complexities of railroading, doesn’t mean that it’s boring or will be so to those that have an interest in the iron rails and it’s operations
exactly, im both, i’ve been flt simming for years but when i saw this coming man i can hardly wait. i’ve been dabbling into a model railroad as a simulation not just "running train around in circles" but modelling a small part of a railroad, say an industrial area where there would be lots of switching. this program would let a small model railroader expand the operations. you could pretend then when the cars are put on a car float and carried off your physical layout then they could be "picked up" in the train sim and taken to final destination,.. now just before everyone says trains are boring, ask a pilot who flies heavies all day and all year, thats boring too for the most part, takeoff and landing is exciting. im waiting for the first VRR (virtual railroad)
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Joking aside now, what would be quite cool would be for Microsoft to merge all these different simulation environments into one single online virtual reality
yes, you got, but make one world for each era. in other words, ok combine planes and trains, and even say a trucking sim, shipping sim. etc. but yes, i agree its time we have one room to all join that would be ATC and CTC controlled.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …[snip]… I can’t figure Train Simulator out; why would it be fun? go forward. stop. go backward. stop. go forward. look out the window – see the trees go by. Is this worth the $50 MS will get for this software? Whereas, with FS2000 you: take off fly land look out the window – see small blobs go by. If that’s worth $50 so it a train sim if that’s your thing.
You mean take off, engage autopilot,engage autoland,turn off computer don’t you (grin). From discussions I get the feeling that most FS sim pilots don’t fly their machines much, at least the commercial aircraft. One might take the challenge of course by trying to fly a 707 or 727 with one of the Arrington-Probst panels before the days automated flight. Jim
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Question:
: You need to get out more….there are LOTS of bmoms who WILL NOT even log on : here anymore because of the bmother-bashing. : Kate, I didn’t argue that there weren’t birthmothers who’ve done : exactly what you say. There are adoptees who’ve done the same exact : thing. What I take issue with is your attitude that somehow it is : Kim’s fault (among others)that these women won’t post here. I argue : that everyone is responsible for their choices in this regard. Shea’s right, it’s not only birthmothers… I stopped reading for several months because the newsgroup had gotten, on the whole, entirely too hateful and petty-politicking. As usual, my horrible-going-to-get-me- in-trouble curiosity brought be back. And it’s not half as bad now, as long as I know what to skip. [the rest deleted because, well, I have no idea what's been going on with the newsgroup interpersonal dynamics, I haven't been back, and besides, it's not my argument anyway. And if I was the Susan you were referring to (it's so hard having such a common name) then I am, in fact, under 30. Under 20, even.] — Susan Susan Marie Groppi | "I want to be addictive, I want to be http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~groppi | before…" –Everything But the Girl "That leaves: shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker mother-fucker and tits (you have to say it with *rhythm*). We could all just add these to our .sigs." – Marco Simons on net censorship
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Kate, this crap about how birthmothers can’t handle themselves, so they’ve left the newsgroup, is crap, and patronizing to boot. There are birthmothers who post here regularly. This is just like the whole relinquishment argument. You need to get out more….there are LOTS of bmoms who WILL NOT even log on here anymore because of the bmother-bashing.
Kate, I didn’t argue that there weren’t birthmothers who’ve done exactly what you say. There are adoptees who’ve done the same exact thing. What I take issue with is your attitude that somehow it is Kim’s fault (among others)that these women won’t post here. I argue that everyone is responsible for their choices in this regard. I have said that too many of the adoptees here on this ng who are under ~30 years old are guilty of judging their bparents by today’s standards. And I stick by my claims.
It seems to me that you are incorrect. In thinking of the ‘regulars’ here, I believe (I could be missing someone) only Kim is under 30. Rosemarie and Susan I think are also under 30, yet both of those tend to agree more with you than with Kim. I don’t see any age grouping where this issue is concerned. I hope its ok with you if I state my opinion, by the way.
What’s this all about, Kate? Have I ever suggested that you weren’t entitled to state your opinion? In fact, haven’t I gone out of my way to say repeatedly that I will defend your right to post whenever and whatever you want. Yes, I have. I think this is a technique that you are utilizing to imply that I am trying to ’shut you up’, a popular theme with Morra, LD Best, and others who also spout this line about how all these birthmothers are frightened of posting here. You know perfectly well that I am disagreeing with your opinion in the same way that I have disagreed with Kim, Steve, Andy, and pretty much everyone on the ng except Kathleen, at one time or another. Now you’re arguing that birthmothers on the Internet are all victims of the big bad alt.adoption machine, and shouldn’t be held responsiblke for their actions (leaving the ng). At least you’re consistent. Oh, for heaven’s sake, I said no such thing.
You didn’t? You argument is (if I understand you correctly) that several birthmothers, unlike other triadians, don’t post here because of all the birthmother bashing. They’re in a delicate state of mind, they’re frightened, they can’t take the abuse. To me what you’re saying is ‘it’s you birthmother-bashing folks who are responsible for these women fleeing the ng’. Isn’t that what you’re saying? You have roundly criticized my overlong (to paraphrase) postings in response to Kim’s, and accuse me of focusing on her exclusively ….in essence, of baiting her and egging her on, therefore boring you witless with drivel (do I have this right so far?).
No. I’ve never said your posts were ‘overlong’ (geez, now that *would* be hypocritical of me), of baiting, or of boring me with drivel. What I have said, and what I do believe, is that you are obsessed with Kim, and that you are saying things over and over again, of which several of these things have been effectively refuted, or could be applied to several other posters on the ng, whom you ignore. I don’t believe you’re ‘baiting’ Kim in any way. She’s a big girl. Well, OK, she’s not a *big* girl, but you know what I mean. If she wants to post, she will, and if she doesn’t she won’t. Imagine that. I think she’s responsible for whether or not she posts. However, you have never – to my knowledge – mentioned the length of Kim’s postings at all.
No, not in the last year anyway. Nor have I yours. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever commented on the length of anyone’s posts, except maybe Celeste. Nor have you accused her of proseltizing, as you have me.
No, because I don’t think she’s trolling for converts as I believe you are. Nor have you called her to task on a regular basis (as you have me for saying she’s full of shit) for her foul descriptions of bmoms.
If you have indeed been reading regularly here since 1993, you would know that what you are saying is false. I have argued vociferously with Kim over this very issue. I just don’t feel a need to continue to do so. I have stated recently that I agree with Kim about 1/2 of the time. I call this double standards, yes.
Oh what bullshit, Kate. There is probably no one on this newsgroup that I disagree with more than Stephanie Soderblom. I killfiled her months ago, after we both said all we had to say. Do you see me chasing her around the ng, posting responses to all her posts? No. Does this mean I’ve stopped disagreeing with her? No. There’s NO POINT. IT’S OVER. And I never asked you to mediate in the first place.
Who’s mediating? Hmmm…..there’s a difference between Kim accusing me of doing so, and YOU accusing me on her behalf — especially when my posts are direct responses to her own.
No there’s not. If you don’t want the public to read and respond to your posts, utilize e-mail, Kate. Would you agree that if she doesn’t want to receive "rants and raves", that she shouldn’t post any to begin with?
I would agree that people who post publically should expect public comments of what they post, just as you should. And following that thought to its logical conclusion, this means that nobody should be posting long "rants and raves" unless they clear it with someone first…..YOU, perhaps?
See above about your lame, diversionary tactics. That line was in direct response to a statement of agreement that yes, you (or whoever I was responding to in the original post) considered it to be hate mail.
No, I never said your posts were hate mail. But there’s a lot of mail here, and missed attributions happen all the time. I never think it’s that big of a deal. Interesting, the conclusions you’ve reached that are entirely without merit or justification. You’re confusing me with someone else again. I never claimed to be distressed by or sick of Kim, or her posts.
No, I’m not confusing you with someone else. You have posted for over two weeks, reams of posts about Kim and Kim’s posts, all of which appear to me to be angry towards Kim. The mere mention of Kim appears to make you ‘distressed’. If you’re arguing that I have reached the conclusion that you are sick of Kim and her posts distress you, WITHOUT MERIT OR JUSTIFICATION then let’s start another thread where we can repost your posts here over the past two weeks and I can point out where and how I came to the conclusion I did. What I AM sick of is certain people rushing to defend Kim against my responses to her
Then take it to e-mail. If you don’t want comment on your posts from anyone but Kim (or is what you’re saying that you only want posts from people that agree with you?) then why are you posting on the newsgroup? posts, when she hardly needs any help from anyone else in the first place. She is quite capable of defending herself.
No kidding. Also, I will respond to whatever posts I like, just as you do.
Good for you! Is it ‘OK’ with you if I do the same? By the way, are you the "Post Gestapo"?
No, feel free to take that title for yourself if you wish. I don’t think it’s taken. OK, now I understand. You’ve worked out your disagreements with Kim’s opinions and viewpoints, and have come to the conclusion that there’s not much more to say on the subject….therefore you wonder what it is I’m bothering to argue about? Is that right?
No, but you’re close. When you, Kate, begin to repeat the same thing over and over in response to Kim then yes, I do wonder what you’re bothering to argue about. And when about half of your gripes with Kim are unfounded, then, yes, I do wonder what it is you’re bothering to argue about and when, you, Kate, not only gripe to Kim over and over again, but also everyone who gripes about your gripes, then yes, I wonder why you don’t killfile her. But, again, let me repeat as you don’t seem to be getting this, I am not attempting to infringe on your right to post whatever and wherever you choose. I am merely voicing a different opinion than you about your position. In other words, you’ve all settled down into a mutually agreeable compromise, you’re all nice and comfy, and you don’t understand why everyone logging on here isn’t cooperating. What a farce.
<sarcasmyeah, right Kate that’s exactly what I’m saying. </sarcasm How long have you been here again? You know perfectly well that ‘nice and comfy’ hardly describes alt.adoption, and in fact I rather like it that way. What I clearly stated is that disagreements, flame wars even, can be undertaken without resorting to telling another poster that they need therapy, without repeating one thing over and over, and without getting hysterical. The only ‘farce’ here is that you’re attempting to paint a picture of Kim, of me, of everyone who disagrees with you, when the facts clearly are in conflict with your picture. I am not attempting to censor you or tell you what to post anymore than your disagreements with me are. So, Kate, it should be obvious to you that just as with Kim, and Steve, and Andy, and even Morra, after a certain point, I’ll have my say, and see that it’s useless (or else reach some sort of consensus), and leave you alone about this particular issue. In the meantime, I’m still confident that there’s points of agreement here, and maybe even some mutual learning opportunities, and I’m going to keep looking for them. Shea Shea’s place http://www.alt.net/~waltj/shea/intro.html
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I wasn’t here in 1994 to verify that her irrationality is increasing, but I can say that I cannot imagine anyone spewing as much hatred as she does now…geez…talk of bodily violence to all birth mothers…this girl is venting to avoid exploding…I am still not quite sure why she vents on birth mothers in general, rather than her adoptive family…It seems so clear to me that she had an unhappy upbringing, but why is she unable to properly target her anger…I am not deliberately talking as though she isn’t listening..it’s just that she isn’t and won’t, so there’s no point addressing her…Is there?
Ever hear of adoptee guilt? It’s safer to attack the biomom than the parents who raised you. Another Adoptee
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Kate, this crap about how birthmothers can’t handle themselves, so they’ve left the newsgroup, is crap, and patronizing to boot. There are birthmothers who post here regularly. This is just like the whole relinquishment argument. You argue that most birthmothers were coerced and were victims of the patriarchy and shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions. Now you’re arguing that birthmothers on the Internet are all victims of the big bad alt.adoption machine, and shouldn’t be held responsiblke for their actions (leaving the ng). At
least you’re consistent.
No, Shea what has been said repeatedly by several people now in several different ways is the this ‘taking responsiblity’ standard should be applied equally in cyberspace. For some unknown reason, you find the idea of holding Kim responsible for her actions objectionable, whether it is violation of her anon server’s acceptable use policy, violation of Pitt’s acceptable use policy, violation of the former adoptees mailing list policy, etc. Considering how often you accuse others of not taking responsibilty for something you think they ought, the word ‘hypocrisy’ comes to mind. — Rosemarie Ventura
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MY "mantra" is old, huh? And thus, invalid. No. I didn’t agree with you the first time you posted the ‘Kim is full of shit’ (paraphrasing your entire line here the last few weeks) mantra. Your repeating of it doesn’t change the validity (or lack thereof).
The fact that your summation of all of my postings in the past few weeks is that "Kim is full of shit" says more than you realize. That was NOT my "mantra"….. refuting Kim’s nasty assertions that bmoms are sluts who don’t care about their kids and trash them without a backward glance, and that adoption is child abuse WAS my "mantra". And yes, I DO think that Kim is full of shit…..~60 – 80% of the time (it fluctuates). You don’t. We obviously disagree — so be it. Kate, this crap about how birthmothers can’t handle themselves, so they’ve left the newsgroup, is crap, and patronizing to boot. There are birthmothers who post here regularly. This is just like the whole relinquishment argument.
You need to get out more….there are LOTS of bmoms who WILL NOT even log on here anymore because of the bmother-bashing. Check out the Birthparents mailing list, for one, if you find this difficult to believe. Then try the Cserve Adoption Forum, and any other spots you can think of where bmoms hang out. And I never said that bmoms couldn’t handle themselves. Some of them, however, are undeniably fragile and cannot (and will not) deliberately expose themselves to the treatment that they receive here. There’s nothing patronizing about it, as it is an understandable reaction. Others have told me that they simply don’t WANT to bother dealing with the abuse. I know of course that there are bmoms who post here regularly (I happen to be one), but try counting how many do so, how long they stay around in comparison to the adoptees, and then find out how many bmoms are on the various mailing lists and Cserve/AOL adoption forums. You’ll see that opinions about the treatment received here on alt.a are quite negative, and that the number of bmoms who post on a regular basis here is quite low compared to the number posting elsewhere. This is not a coincidence. You argue that most birthmothers were coerced and were victims of the patriarchy and shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions.
I have said repeatedly that most bmoms – pre mid-1970’s – were coerced in some way, that the decision was not made by them in the way that adoptees seem to think, and that generalizations are out of order. I have said that too many of the adoptees here on this ng who are under ~30 years old are guilty of judging their bparents by today’s standards. And I stick by my claims. As for the issue of being held responsible, that depends ENTIRELY on individual stories – there can be no blanket "rule" about it in my opinion. I hope its ok with you if I state my opinion, by the way. Now you’re arguing that birthmothers on the Internet are all victims of the big bad alt.adoption machine, and shouldn’t be held responsiblke for their actions (leaving the ng). At least you’re consistent.
Oh, for heaven’s sake, I said no such thing. I guess that you have entirely different rules for Kim. Why am I not surprised? Maybe this ng should be renamed alt.adoptee? I’m totally serious, by the way. What different rules? When Morra posts her crap, and Andy and Steve and Kim and sometimes me and Marley, tell her she’s full of shit, there’s always some birthmothers, (l.d best, laura lewis)and some version of Sybil here to defend her. Kim doesn’t have any different ‘rules’. There are definitely ‘camps’ here on alt.adoption, just as IRL. We’re separated by triad, sometimes, and also by certain pet peeve arguments. I have never tried to tell you that you weren’t entitled to argue or disagree.
You have roundly criticized my overlong (to paraphrase) postings in response to Kim’s, and accuse me of focusing on her exclusively ….in essence, of baiting her and egging her on, therefore boring you witless with drivel (do I have this right so far?). However, you have never – to my knowledge – mentioned the length of Kim’s postings at all. Nor have you accused her of proseltizing, as you have me. Nor have you called her to task on a regular basis (as you have me for saying she’s full of shit) for her foul descriptions of bmoms. I call this double standards, yes. And I never asked you to mediate in the first place. If we’re going to accuse people of posting rants and raves, let’s do it across the board….equitably. Believe me, it’s been done. Where have you been? At one time or another, I think every single regular here has been accused of posting rants and raves, even our most equitable and agreeable of posters, Kathleen and Lainie. Sometimes these accusations are accurate. You have been accusing Kim of ranting and raving and I’m accusing you of ranting and raving. We’re probably both right.
Hmmm…..there’s a difference between Kim accusing me of doing so, and YOU accusing me on her behalf — especially when my posts are direct responses to her own. Would you agree that if she doesn’t want to receive "rants and raves", that she shouldn’t post any to begin with? And following that thought to its logical conclusion, this means that nobody should be posting long "rants and raves" unless they clear it with someone first…..YOU, perhaps? And my responses are no more hate mail than anyone else’s are. Who said anything about hate mail?
That line was in direct response to a statement of agreement that yes, you (or whoever I was responding to in the original post) considered it to be hate mail. Well, I’ve been around here since ‘93. I don’t know when Night appeared, but I think it was after I did. I think she’s much more rational now than she was then. Well, I do not. How long have you been here?
Seems like forever…..I think it was the fall of 1993. If you, and others who are so distressed by her, were to killfile her, then there would not be threads and threads about Kim and her posts. And since you are sick of Kim and don’t think there’s anything else worthwhile on the ng, why are you here?
Interesting, the conclusions you’ve reached that are entirely without merit or justification. You’re confusing me with someone else again. I never claimed to be distressed by or sick of Kim, or her posts. I object to her accusations against bmoms, certainly. But that’s not quite the same thing, because ostensibly this ng is here for precisely this reason: discussion. What I AM sick of is certain people rushing to defend Kim against my responses to her posts, when she hardly needs any help from anyone else in the first place. She is quite capable of defending herself. There are quite a few interesting topics that have nothing to do with Kim that I have just written in response to today. Maybe you should check your newsreader,or maybe you’re so obsessed right now with Kim that you can’t see beyond her posts.
As a matter of fact, I have recently changed my newsreader and know now that I was missing more than half of the postings, judging by the number of postings I now get on a daily basis. Obsessed with Kim? No more than you or anyone else appears to be. Also, I will respond to whatever posts I like, just as you do. Makes no difference. I didn’t say you were irrational and single-focused on being a birthmother. I said you were irrational and single-foucsed when it came to Kim.
How exactly did you reach that misguided conclusion anyway? Do you realize that few, if any, of my posts concerning Kim were ever STARTED by me, that they were responses to her own or someone else’s posts? I guess that probably escaped your attention. By the way, are you the "Post Gestapo"? And I should simply shut up and learn the TRUTH, right? *yawn*. If it makes you feel better to consider yourself an oppressed victim, Kate, who am I to tell you otherwise.
I would hardly call myself an oppressed victim, thanks. Never said I was. Would you be more comfortable if I donned this particular mantle before logging on? I don’t think Kim speaks ‘the TRUTH’ any more than any single person on this ng. What I have repeatedly stated is that I agree with Kim about half the time. I toss out what I don’t agree with, as we’ve already argued and there’s not much more to say.
OK, now I understand. You’ve worked out your disagreements with Kim’s opinions and viewpoints, and have come to the conclusion that there’s not much more to say on the subject….therefore you wonder what it is I’m bothering to argue about? Is that right? It’s the same for me with Steve and Andy. All of us have had our flame wars over what we disagree about. For the most part, they were constructive and I can’t recall one instance when any of us told each other they needed therapy or should go away, or should shut up, or were responsible for every other ng member’s actions. We all still have some of those difference, in some cases, all of those differences. But we don’t feel a need to follow each other around the ng harping on the same point over and over and over. That’s not in the least bit constructive.
In other words, you’ve all settled down into a mutually agreeable compromise, you’re all nice and comfy, and you don’t understand why everyone logging on here isn’t cooperating. What a farce. Kate
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: I wasn’t here in 1994 to verify that her irrationality is increasing, but I : can say that I cannot imagine anyone spewing as much hatred as she does : now…geez…talk of bodily violence to all birth mothers…this girl is : venting to avoid exploding…I am still not quite sure why she vents on birth : mothers in general, rather than her adoptive family…It seems so clear to me : that she had an unhappy upbringing, but why is she unable to properly target : her anger…I am not deliberately talking as though she isn’t listening..it’s : just that she isn’t and won’t, so there’s no point addressing her…Is there? Anger, I suppose, is just like money, in that anyone who evidences a surplus will never lack for advice on how and where it should be properly directed. Andy Katz
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MY "mantra" is old, huh? And thus, invalid.
No. I didn’t agree with you the first time you posted the ‘Kim is full of shit’ (paraphrasing your entire line here the last few weeks) mantra. Your repeating of it doesn’t change the validity (or lack thereof). It wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that I’m a bmom, and Kim HATES bmoms, would it?
??? This goes a long way toward explaining why so many bmoms refuse to post here anymore. They’ve moved over to the mailing lists, where it’s ok to speak their piece, tell their stories without worrying that they’ll be called sluts, and defend themselves when necessary: without being told, basically, to shut up and take it.
Kate, this crap about how birthmothers can’t handle themselves, so they’ve left the newsgroup, is crap, and patronizing to boot. There are birthmothers who post here regularly. This is just like the whole relinquishment argument. You argue that most birthmothers were coerced and were victims of the patriarchy and shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions. Now you’re arguing that birthmothers on the Internet are all victims of the big bad alt.adoption machine, and shouldn’t be held responsiblke for their actions (leaving the ng). At least you’re consistent. I guess that you have entirely different rules for Kim. Why am I not surprised? Maybe this ng should be renamed alt.adoptee? I’m totally serious, by the way.
What different rules? When Morra posts her crap, and Andy and Steve and Kim and sometimes me and Marley, tell her she’s full of shit, there’s always some birthmothers, (l.d best, laura lewis)and some version of Sybil here to defend her. Kim doesn’t have any different ‘rules’. There are definitely ‘camps’ here on alt.adoption, just as IRL. We’re separated by triad, sometimes, and also by certain pet peeve arguments. I have never tried to tell you that you weren’t entitled to argue or disagree. If we’re going to accuse people of posting rants and raves, let’s do it across the board….equitably.
Believe me, it’s been done. Where have you been? At one time or another, I think every single regular here has been accused of posting rants and raves, even our most equitable and agreeable of posters, Kathleen and Lainie. Sometimes these accusations are accurate. You have been accusing Kim of ranting and raving and I’m accusing you of ranting and raving. We’re probably both right. And my responses are no more hate mail than anyone else’s are.
Who said anything about hate mail? Well, I’ve been around here since ‘93. I don’t know when Night appeared, but I think it was after I did. I think she’s much more rational now than she was then. Well, I do not.
How long have you been here? Whether you and Jean like what I post is irrelevant. As for killfiling Kim – now what good would that do, when the majority of the posts here are either from Kim, or are responses to / conversations about what she has said?
If you, and others who are so distressed by her, were to killfile her, then there would not be threads and threads about Kim and her posts. And since you are sick of Kim and don’t think there’s anything else worthwhile on the ng, why are you here? There are quite a few interesting topics that have nothing to do with Kim that I have just written in response to today. Maybe you should check your newsreader, or maybe you’re so obsessed right now with Kim that you can’t see beyond her posts. As for being irrational and single-focused: I cannot be, for the simple reason that I am surrounded by all 3 sides of the triad every day in my own family.
Makes no difference. I didn’t say you were irrational and single-focused on being a birthmother. I said you were irrational and single-foucsed when it came to Kim. And I should simply shut up and learn the TRUTH, right?
*yawn*. If it makes you feel better to consider yourself an oppressed victim, Kate, who am I to tell you otherwise. I don’t think Kim speaks ‘the TRUTH’ any more than any single person on this ng. What I have repeatedly stated is that I agree with Kim about half the time. I toss out what I don’t agree with, as we’ve already argued and there’s not much more to say. It’s the same for me with Steve and Andy. All of us have had our flame wars over what we disagree about. For the most part, they were constructive and I can’t recall one instance when any of us told each other they needed therapy or should go away, or should shut up, or were responsible for every other ng member’s actions. We all still have some of those difference, in some cases, all of those differences. But we don’t feel a need to follow each other around the ng harping on the same point over and over and over. That’s not in the least bit constructive. Shea Shea’s place http://www.alt.net/~waltj/shea/intro.html
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Well, I can’t speak for Jean, but why I think you should pipe down is that the only contributive thing you’ve posted in goddess knows how long is rants and raves about Kim.
Then I think you need to pay closer attention, because you’re wrong about this. This has lead to rants and raves to anyone who defends Kim including calling them ‘full of shit’ and in general going on and on shrilly for paragraphs repeating the same mantra over and over. It’s old. But hey, I’ll support your right to post it as often as you like.
MY "mantra" is old, huh? And thus, invalid. It wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that I’m a bmom, and Kim HATES bmoms, would it? This goes a long way toward explaining why so many bmoms refuse to post here anymore. They’ve moved over to the mailing lists, where it’s ok to speak their piece, tell their stories without worrying that they’ll be called sluts, and defend themselves when necessary: without being told, basically, to shut up and take it. I guess that you have entirely different rules for Kim. Why am I not surprised? Maybe this ng should be renamed alt.adoptee? I’m totally serious, by the way. If we’re going to accuse people of posting rants and raves, let’s do it across the board….equitably. I don’t think it’s ‘OK’, just like I don’t think it’s ‘OK’ that you presume to know everything about Kim.
Again, my references to Kim’s life are based solely on what is common knowledge on this ng, for anyone who has been here long enough. I have not "presumed" to know this info, nor have I fabricated it. And I never claimed or intimated that I know everything about Kim. What I DO know is more than enough for me. She, on the other hand, is guilty of presumptions about and accusations against bmoms that go far beyond ranting and raving. But again, I guess that’s okay because it’s Kim. And my responses are no more hate mail than anyone else’s are. Well, I’ve been around here since ‘93. I don’t know when Night appeared, but I think it was after I did. I think she’s much more rational now than she was then.
Well, I do not. As I said, I think you have every right to post whatever you want. Just as Jean or I have every right to tell you we don’t like what you post. My problem is I think you’ve become as single-focused and irrational as you accuse Kim of being. Maybe you shoudl just killfile her or don’t read any of her posts her something.
Whether you and Jean like what I post is irrelevant. As for killfiling Kim – now what good would that do, when the majority of the posts here are either from Kim, or are responses to / conversations about what she has said? I have no interest in reading posts about people looking to buy babies, which seems to be what so many of the other postings are these days. As for being irrational and single-focused: I cannot be, for the simple reason that I am surrounded by all 3 sides of the triad every day in my own family. I have no vested interest in convincing anyone to despise another triad group. I have made no attempts to generically badmouth adoptees, bmoms OR aparents. She has and does repeatedly bash both bmoms and adoptees who disagree with her…..using the same old "mantra", by the way. But I guess that’s okay. And I should simply shut up and learn the TRUTH, right?
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What could be the reason? Bad genes? I see. So you consider my responses to her to be "hate mail", is that right? I do not hate her, nor do I hate her postings. I am capable of separating the postings from the person. In fact, I find them interesting. But she’s becoming increasing irrational, and if you’ve been monitoring since 1994, you will know that this is so. I don’t say irrational because of her hatred of bmothers — I say it because she used to be able to at least consider what others had to say about the subject. Now, she just posts her accusations and distorted fantasies with abandon….and you, along with a couple of others here, feel that I have no right to tell her what I think.
I wasn’t here in 1994 to verify that her irrationality is increasing, but I can say that I cannot imagine anyone spewing as much hatred as she does now…geez…talk of bodily violence to all birth mothers…this girl is venting to avoid exploding…I am still not quite sure why she vents on birth mothers in general, rather than her adoptive family…It seems so clear to me that she had an unhappy upbringing, but why is she unable to properly target her anger…I am not deliberately talking as though she isn’t listening..it’s just that she isn’t and won’t, so there’s no point addressing her…Is there? "A rumor without a leg to stand on will get around some other way" (John Tudor)
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Hello… Well, I certainly am happy that Kate Workman is around. After all, without her to tell me how I feel and what I think, I would be utterly lost.
As if you haven’t been posting your story and feelings (as well as Tina’s) in great detail for over a year, huh? Did you think nobody was paying attention? I was. I am also happy she is in posession of telepathic abilities which enable her to read both my mind and my birthmother’s so that she can tell me and everyone else is REALLY going on in our heads. I wonder where she got that monitoring equipment that allows her to see how my birthmother and I REALLY interact, rather than merely how I THINK we interact. The U.S. Government would probably pay a lot of money for equipment with such incredible potential.
Psychic abilities were not necessary. Again, YOU are the one who felt it was appropriate and/or important to post this info in the first place. If you didn’t welcome any input, what EXACTLY was the point of posting it? Just to vent? That’s what they make diaries for….they even come with little keys! THIS is a public forum, and you shouldn’t post anything that you don’t want others to know about. Any info I have on how you and Tina interact was supplied by YOU, and not – as you would like people to believe – by my overactive imagination. I have better things to do than make up stories about people. What would we silly little misled adoptees do without birthmothers like Kate to tell us what’s REALLY going on inside our heads and in our lives, as well as what our birthmothers REALLY think and do and say as opposed to what we THINK they think, and what we THINK they did and what we THINK they really said?
What a load of crap….you’re really getting desperate here. You say this as though you’ve never gone into great detail about what’s REALLY going on inside your head and life, as well as Tina’s. In future, if you don’t expect people to comment on your lengthly, detailed postings — then don’t post them. You know, as do many people on this ng, that your feelings and Tina’s have been well-documented … from your perspective mostly, but also from your OWN accounting of Tina’s comment, actions and perspective (which of course was at odds with your own). PS Anyone else notice that Chicken Girl STILL refuses to post HER story?
Chicken Girl, huh? Tee Hee!!! Guess again. You see, I DO understand that this is a public forum.
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I’m not sure it’s worth replying to this drivel, as Jean has apparently logged off, but JUST IN CASE she’s as full of shit as I suspect and is in fact still "lurking": You might remember that months *before* her reunion, Kim/Nightshade/Belladonna was spewing angry venom with a vengeance. Do you ever wonder why? Do you wonder why, when she first appeared here, she came accross like a cruise missle?
Obviously she is a very angry individual. I’ve come across people like her before, in my own family. She will likely get a grip eventually….one can hope. Before she decided to search. Before she decided that the adoptees’ mailing list was full of shit.
Oh, I see. KIM HAS SPOKEN. Dare I point out that there are many who would disagree? Before she started her public campaign against birthmothers.
Again, is there a point here somewhere? Before she publicly admitted that the reason she used the anonymous server penet.fi was because she was ashamed to be adopted.
That’s a claim that I have NEVER believed. She posted anonymously because in those days she wasn’t sufficiently brave enough to risk having alt.adoption know who she really is. She wouldn’t have stopped posting anonymously at all had someone not "outed" her — not that I think it was an ethical thing to do. The fact that she continues to post using her real name is progress of sorts. And let’s get something straight here, once and for all. You don’t have to be a brain surgeon to understand that Kim’s hatred of birthmothers in general is based almost exclusively on her OWN feelings about the subject. She has judged them and found them wanting, and apparently nothing anyone says will make any difference. Unlike most rational people, who can see the triad from different perspectives and at least attempt to understand where everyone is coming from, she has no interest in doing so at this point in time. I don’t post my responses to her thinking that it will make any difference to HER: I simply prefer to see a more balanced view here. As I’ve said before, there are a helluva lot of people who lurk here but never, or rarely, post at all. Should they see her assertions go completely unchallenged? I don’ t think so. Look, neither you nor I is in any position to evaluate her upbringing with any sort of accuracy or objectivity. At least be honest about this and quit the pseudo-analytical jive.
Let’s REALLY be honest here and admit that we are ALL evaluating the information that she posts. She knows this, you know this, I know this, and so does everyone else. Pseudo-analytical jive? Bullshit. You can take all her statements at face value. I wouldn’t.
And I don’t. Try to see through an adoptee’s eyes for a moment. Ask yourself, "Is she real?"
She seems real enough to me. What do *you* know. As though you needed to know *that*! You and I know jack shit about her or anyone else here. So pipe down.
Why in God’s name should I "pipe down"? What is the POINT of a ng where one person posts such venemous crap and nobody is supposed to argue with her? What is your problem? And why exactly do you feel that it’s okay for Kim to presume to know everything about bmothers, and to comment on their lives, when she knows even less about us than we do about her? We all know a lot more than "jack shit" about her, by the way. You have some very strange ideas about who’s overstepping their bounds here. I remember her generating handfuls of hate mail and hate response backwards to, I dunno, mid ‘94? Before she had considered searching. What could be the reason? Bad genes?
I see. So you consider my responses to her to be "hate mail", is that right? I do not hate her, nor do I hate her postings. I am capable of separating the postings from the person. In fact, I find them interesting. But she’s becoming increasing irrational, and if you’ve been monitoring since 1994, you will know that this is so. I don’t say irrational because of her hatred of bmothers — I say it because she used to be able to at least consider what others had to say about the subject. Now, she just posts her accusations and distorted fantasies with abandon….and you, along with a couple of others here, feel that I have no right to tell her what I think. Very interesting. Is this the alt.adoption.Kim’s-always-right-so-don’t-dare argue.ng, or what? As for the bad genes bit, I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Do you?
Response:
Kate, You might remember that months *before* her reunion, Kim/Nightshade/Belladonna was spewing angry venom with a vengeance. Do you ever wonder why? Do you wonder why, when she first appeared here, she came accross like a cruise missle? Before she decided to search. Before she decided that the adoptees’ mailing list was full of shit. Before she started her public campaign against birthmothers. Before she publicly admitted that the reason she used the anonymous server penet.fi was because she was ashamed to be adopted. * Look, neither you nor I is in any position to evaluate her upbringing with any sort of accuracy or objectivity. At least be honest about this and quit the pseudo-analytical jive. You can take all her statements at face value. I wouldn’t. Try to see through an adoptee’s eyes for a moment. Ask yourself, "Is she real?" What do *you* know. As though you needed to know *that*! You and I know jack shit about her or anyone else here. So pipe down. I remember her generating handfuls of hate mail and hate response backwards to, I dunno, mid ‘94? Before she had considered searching. What could be the reason? Bad genes? -J
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Hello… Well, I certainly am happy that Kate Workman is around. After all, without her to tell me how I feel and what I think, I would be utterly lost. I am also happy she is in posession of telepathic abilities which enable her to read both my mind and my birthmother’s so that she can tell me and everyone else is REALLY going on in our heads. I wonder where she got that monitoring equipment that allows her to see how my birthmother and I REALLY interact, rather than merely how I THINK we interact. The U.S. Government would probably pay a lot of money for equipment with such incredible potential. What would we silly little misled adoptees do without birthmothers like Kate to tell us what’s REALLY going on inside our heads and in our lives, as well as what our birthmothers REALLY think and do and say as opposed to what we THINK they think, and what we THINK they did and what we THINK they really said? It’s a wonder we adoptees can be trusted to get our shoes on our feet correctly without help… – Kim at Pitt. PS Anyone else notice that Chicken Girl STILL refuses to post HER story?
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