Question:
Stop whining! Trying to justify the costs are ridiculous, you’ll NEVER do it. And if you do, it’ll not work out. Look at what’s happening. Now, you’re trying to convince yourself that a faster airplane may be the ticket for trips that you’ll probably never make! Look into a club or renting for those occasional trips. How about a close relationship with a current owner? If you just want to be one of the boys and get into the air on your own steed, be happy and satisfied with a 150, a Champ or Chief or an Ercoupe. Under 15K and costs are low. This is pure pleasure and you need to fund it with piss money, so face the facts. But remeber, what ever you get will never be enough. That includes buying the space shuttle! Good luck and keep at it, just throw away the damn spreadsheets. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As many of you will remember, I am a fairly pessimistic regular here. I have done a lot of research over the past few years, created spreadsheet after spreadsheet to convince myself that I could afford to own a plane, and finally gave it up due to the financial risks involved. I really
Response:
And you’ll need to get into that Barbie jet of yours to go as fast. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You were doing great until you got to the part about what’s more fun to fly. Right then and there you entered into the realm of bs. <grin Juan And aviation-wise, the only thing more fun to fly than a Viking, is flying a hang glider, which on time is the best fun you can have with your clothes on… 
Enrique (OH MY GAWD!!!, they are gonna burn me before I get to HELL) Troconis
Response:
I like to live within my means so modeling the costs of ownership make sense to me. With my Excel spreadsheet I can see just what I will need to do to get a plane. Of course, in my circumstances there are things that cannot be put into the spreadsheet such as a family that likes to travel and a wife with back problems who cannot stand long car trips. So I am putting myself on the waiting list for a tie down spot (only $200-250 per month and a one year wait, much better than the $800 per month and 5 year wait for a T-hangar). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stop whining! Trying to justify the costs are ridiculous, you’ll NEVER do it. And if you do, it’ll not work out. Look at what’s happening. Now, you’re trying to convince yourself that a faster airplane may be the ticket for trips that you’ll probably never make! Look into a club or renting for those occasional trips. How about a close relationship with a current owner? If you just want to be one of the boys and get into the air on your own steed, be happy and satisfied with a 150, a Champ or Chief or an Ercoupe. Under 15K and costs are low. This is pure pleasure and you need to fund it with piss money, so face the facts. But remeber, what ever you get will never be enough. That includes buying the space shuttle! Good luck and keep at it, just throw away the damn spreadsheets. As many of you will remember, I am a fairly pessimistic regular here. I have done a lot of research over the past few years, created spreadsheet after spreadsheet to convince myself that I could afford to own a plane, and finally gave it up due to the financial risks involved. I really
Response:
Good idea, Jim— I think I’ll do just that. They meet again first sunday in August – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Otherwise, if anyone in Little River, Ukiah, Boonville, or Willits is interested in a partnership, let me know! Perhaps a call to your friendly local EAA chapter would be a good start for an earnest search for a partner and/or a plane . Attend a meeting, meet some nice folks and let your wishes be known. Check out Willits EAA at: http://www.willitseaa.homestead.com/ — Jim Fisher Cherokee 180 www.EAAChapter615.org
Response:
Jefro, If you are thinking of taking the 7k a year you now spend on flying added to the 4k that you are going to spend on travel expenses and spend it on a plane that will fulfill all that need for 11k a year, then you have a perfectly rational decision process that rivals those of many Fortune 500 companies. I once met a real estate agent that said that you should not look at your house as an investment. "Buy the house that you want to live in," he said. While that has an important bit of wisdom to it, it also is a load of crap to someone like me whose buying process is based on using rational processes to keep from making a bad emotion based decision. Take the middle road. Don’t throw out emotion, you have to want and love the plane. Don’t throw out financial considerations or you won’t be able to enjoy it – either because it adds too much stress to your life, or becuase you can’t keep it in the air. Throwing out logic is something that some millionaires need to do because they are so uptight they would never buy the plane otherwise. Guys like you and me need to throw in some financial planning or we will never be able to enjoy the plane. I think you are on the right track. Just ensure that you can afford the "emergency" that will get you every few years, and do your diligence on the plane. Your buddy may have taken great care of it, but it may still be ready to blow up. Bon Voyage!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As many of you will remember, I am a fairly pessimistic regular here. I have done a lot of research over the past few years, created spreadsheet after spreadsheet to convince myself that I could afford to own a plane, and finally gave it up due to the financial risks involved. I really wanted to buy just a small plane, a 172 or similar, but simply couldn’t afford it. The whole thing simply stretched me too tight, particularly since the stock market has remained in the toilet. Well… Things change, though not much has changed financially. I was sniffing around at some Mooneys not long ago and it occurred to me that I was trying to cost-justify the wrong plane. Also, my flight "mission" is changing slightly in a positive direction. For background, we normally make two "long" trips each year from our home in northern California, one to southern CA by driving (for some reason it’s always in bad weather) and one to Iowa on Amtrak. We could use the 172 to get to southern CA, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking the whole family to Iowa in a 172, and I couldn’t afford a bigger plane. Between the two trips, we spend around $3k/yr. We are going to discontinue the regular trip to southern CA, maybe only go every two years now, but increase the frequency to Iowa since my Grandma turns 85 this year and her health is failing, not to mention that we have gotten closer to family there in recent years. Expected amount to spend on travelling to Iowa twice a year is about $4k. Now… as I said, I couldn’t justify making that trip in a 172, but what about a faster plane? Sniffing around Mooneys prompted me to look into it. A mid-60s Mooney M20C can be had for about the same cash outlay as a mid-70s 172, with approximately the same financial risks. BUT, the trips to Iowa could be made easily in a Mooney. If I apply the $4k/yr we spend travelling anyway to the $7k/yr I spend on flying (approx. 75hrs/yr at average $95/hr), suddenly we are into the realm of ownership. But about that pesky financial liability. What happens if an engine goes south? I’m still stuck here, but one option for coping is to have at least $15k readily available, even in form of a loan. I can afford monthly cash flow more easily than large-chunk outlay, so I’ll be taking money out of the Home Equity Line of Credit to help pay for the plane, but it drains the availability of funds in that loan to a minimum, and I’m not going to get another loan. The line of credit is a function of the value of my house. The answer? Make the house more valuable! So I’m remodeling the garage, making it into a master bedroom suite with attached home office. (I get the added advantage of a bigger office.) If I do a good job on the remodel I’ll be able to afford the plane, and the faster I get it done the sooner it will all happen. That’s motivation for you. The best part is that a friend is interested in selling his M20C between now and October, and I know very well how he has treated the bird. I’m posting this to show that a even a pessimistic (albeit dedicated) nut like myself can find a way to afford a plane and manage the associated financial risk. The added benefits are numerous and have been discussed here and elsewhere, and I am totally jazzed about the possibility of taking advantage of them. I am also more than ever convinced that waiting was the right thing for me to do until now, and that going into something like this with eyes open is the best way, for me anyway. PS. Jay, I’ll try to stop by in Sept/Oct. I should be done with my Skilsaw by then if you need to borrow it. :D
Response:
Congrats, Jefro — you’re well on the road to financial perdition… ;)
Hehehehehe MUCH cheaper commercially (or in your car), there are many trips that can ONLY be made realistically in a light plane.
Amen to that. For one thing, the nearest "big" airport is 4 hrs drive from here, and Grandma’s house on the other end is 3 hrs drive from either MSP or Des Moines. That alone adds 7 hours onto a very long trip. places commercially, and with rental cars — you will soon conclude that personal aircraft are the CHEAPEST form of transportation!
hahahha… I love it! Keep going, we’ll get those planes to pay US to fly them pretty soon In fact, using current "WorldCom" accounting techniques, you can actually show a PROFIT from flying your own plane, based on decreased expenditures!
HA! You did it! I want you to be my financial advisor from now on. No shredders, though. Thanks, man. We’ve been working on the new lobby, and I’ve suddenly remembered why I decided not to make a living in the building trades. I’m getting too old to hold a Sawz-all over my head all day!
Yike, be careful there. I bet there are a ton of college students in town whose parents pay their health insurance who might want some summer work…
Response:
I suspect part of the attraction to buying is where Jefro lives. The north coast of California is a bit of a drive from anywhere. The plane rental opportunities are slim and expensive and having a plane makes it a lot more reasonable to get out of the area occasionally.
You said it! 4 hrs drive to either airport (OAK or SFO) or Amtrak. We got Greyhound over in Willits, though. (eek)
Response:
You were doing great until you got to the part about what’s more fun to fly. Right then and there you entered into the realm of bs. <grin Juan
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And aviation-wise, the only thing more fun to fly than a Viking, is flying a hang glider, which on time is the best fun you can have with your clothes on… Enrique (OH MY GAWD!!!, they are gonna burn me before I get to HELL) Troconis
Response:
Yike, be careful there. I bet there are a ton of college students in town whose parents pay their health insurance who might want some summer
work… Yeah, but it’s ME who is paying the liability insurance. Last thing I need is some whiny parent complaining cuz junior gave himself a hangnail while working on the hotel… Besides, demolition is *fun*! Like my friend (who is helping me) exclaimed, while holding the Sawz-All with a wicked gleam in his eye: "If it scars the earth in any way, I LOVE it…" I’d say that just about sums up most guy’s attitudes toward power tools, eh? 
— Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993
Response:
Otherwise, if anyone in Little River, Ukiah, Boonville, or Willits is interested in a partnership, let me know!
Perhaps a call to your friendly local EAA chapter would be a good start for an earnest search for a partner and/or a plane . Attend a meeting, meet some nice folks and let your wishes be known. Check out Willits EAA at: http://www.willitseaa.homestead.com/ — Jim Fisher Cherokee 180 www.EAAChapter615.org
Response:
Don’t you dare compare a plywood and rag airplane to the sacred Bonanza. Shame on you, may the termites of a thousand forests infest your wings. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Jefro, under the risk of starting a never-ending flame war, I’ll suggest you to take a look at the Super Viking. You’ll be glad you did… Check out http://www.bellancaviking.com, especially http://www.bellancaviking.com/news.html. See also http://www.millerflyingservice.com for some current prices and http://www.kitepilot.com/viking/horror_story.htm for what Miller did for me. Sometime ago someone said here that Vikings had the bad habit of breaking up in mid flight. That was a false accusation (read the NTSB files) and could not be proved. Vikings don’t have a worse tendency to break up than V-tail Bonanzas zooming out of control or C172 bouncing in thunderstorms. And aviation-wise, the only thing more fun to fly than a Viking, is flying a hang glider, which on time is the best fun you can have with your clothes on… Enrique (OH MY GAWD!!!, they are gonna burn me before I get to HELL) Troconis http://www.kitepilot.com/ http://www.kitepilot.com/viking/ As many of you will remember, I am a fairly pessimistic regular here. I have done a lot of research over the past few years, created spreadsheet after spreadsheet to convince myself that I could afford to own a plane, and finally gave it up due to the financial risks involved. I really wanted to buy just a small plane, a 172 or similar, but simply couldn’t afford it. The whole thing simply stretched me too tight, particularly since the stock market has remained in the toilet. Well… Things change, though not much has changed financially. I was sniffing around at some Mooneys not long ago and it occurred to me that I was trying to cost-justify the wrong plane. Also, my flight "mission" is changing slightly in a positive direction. For background, we normally make two "long" trips each year from our home in northern California, one to southern CA by driving (for some reason it’s always in bad weather) and one to Iowa on Amtrak. We could use the 172 to get to southern CA, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking the whole family to Iowa in a 172, and I couldn’t afford a bigger plane. Between the two trips, we spend around $3k/yr. We are going to discontinue the regular trip to southern CA, maybe only go every two years now, but increase the frequency to Iowa since my Grandma turns 85 this year and her health is failing, not to mention that we have gotten closer to family there in recent years. Expected amount to spend on travelling to Iowa twice a year is about $4k. Now… as I said, I couldn’t justify making that trip in a 172, but what about a faster plane? Sniffing around Mooneys prompted me to look into it. A mid-60s Mooney M20C can be had for about the same cash outlay as a mid-70s 172, with approximately the same financial risks. BUT, the trips to Iowa could be made easily in a Mooney. If I apply the $4k/yr we spend travelling anyway to the $7k/yr I spend on flying (approx. 75hrs/yr at average $95/hr), suddenly we are into the realm of ownership. But about that pesky financial liability. What happens if an engine goes south? I’m still stuck here, but one option for coping is to have at least $15k readily available, even in form of a loan. I can afford monthly cash flow more easily than large-chunk outlay, so I’ll be taking money out of the Home Equity Line of Credit to help pay for the plane, but it drains the availability of funds in that loan to a minimum, and I’m not going to get another loan. The line of credit is a function of the value of my house. The answer? Make the house more valuable! So I’m remodeling the garage, making it into a master bedroom suite with attached home office. (I get the added advantage of a bigger office.) If I do a good job on the remodel I’ll be able to afford the plane, and the faster I get it done the sooner it will all happen. That’s motivation for you. The best part is that a friend is interested in selling his M20C between now and October, and I know very well how he has treated the bird. I’m posting this to show that a even a pessimistic (albeit dedicated) nut like myself can find a way to afford a plane and manage the associated financial risk. The added benefits are numerous and have been discussed here and elsewhere, and I am totally jazzed about the possibility of taking advantage of them. I am also more than ever convinced that waiting was the right thing for me to do until now, and that going into something like this with eyes open is the best way, for me anyway. PS. Jay, I’ll try to stop by in Sept/Oct. I should be done with my Skilsaw by then if you need to borrow it. :D
Response:
Hi Jefro, under the risk of starting a never-ending flame war, I’ll suggest you to take a look at the Super Viking. You’ll be glad you did… Check out http://www.bellancaviking.com, especially http://www.bellancaviking.com/news.html. See also http://www.millerflyingservice.com for some current prices and http://www.kitepilot.com/viking/horror_story.htm for what Miller did for me. Sometime ago someone said here that Vikings had the bad habit of breaking up in mid flight. That was a false accusation (read the NTSB files) and could not be proved. Vikings don’t have a worse tendency to break up than V-tail Bonanzas zooming out of control or C172 bouncing in thunderstorms. And aviation-wise, the only thing more fun to fly than a Viking, is flying a hang glider, which on time is the best fun you can have with your clothes on… Enrique (OH MY GAWD!!!, they are gonna burn me before I get to HELL) Troconis http://www.kitepilot.com/ http://www.kitepilot.com/viking/
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As many of you will remember, I am a fairly pessimistic regular here. I have done a lot of research over the past few years, created spreadsheet after spreadsheet to convince myself that I could afford to own a plane, and finally gave it up due to the financial risks involved. I really wanted to buy just a small plane, a 172 or similar, but simply couldn’t afford it. The whole thing simply stretched me too tight, particularly since the stock market has remained in the toilet. Well… Things change, though not much has changed financially. I was sniffing around at some Mooneys not long ago and it occurred to me that I was trying to cost-justify the wrong plane. Also, my flight "mission" is changing slightly in a positive direction. For background, we normally make two "long" trips each year from our home in northern California, one to southern CA by driving (for some reason it’s always in bad weather) and one to Iowa on Amtrak. We could use the 172 to get to southern CA, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking the whole family to Iowa in a 172, and I couldn’t afford a bigger plane. Between the two trips, we spend around $3k/yr. We are going to discontinue the regular trip to southern CA, maybe only go every two years now, but increase the frequency to Iowa since my Grandma turns 85 this year and her health is failing, not to mention that we have gotten closer to family there in recent years. Expected amount to spend on travelling to Iowa twice a year is about $4k. Now… as I said, I couldn’t justify making that trip in a 172, but what about a faster plane? Sniffing around Mooneys prompted me to look into it. A mid-60s Mooney M20C can be had for about the same cash outlay as a mid-70s 172, with approximately the same financial risks. BUT, the trips to Iowa could be made easily in a Mooney. If I apply the $4k/yr we spend travelling anyway to the $7k/yr I spend on flying (approx. 75hrs/yr at average $95/hr), suddenly we are into the realm of ownership. But about that pesky financial liability. What happens if an engine goes south? I’m still stuck here, but one option for coping is to have at least $15k readily available, even in form of a loan. I can afford monthly cash flow more easily than large-chunk outlay, so I’ll be taking money out of the Home Equity Line of Credit to help pay for the plane, but it drains the availability of funds in that loan to a minimum, and I’m not going to get another loan. The line of credit is a function of the value of my house. The answer? Make the house more valuable! So I’m remodeling the garage, making it into a master bedroom suite with attached home office. (I get the added advantage of a bigger office.) If I do a good job on the remodel I’ll be able to afford the plane, and the faster I get it done the sooner it will all happen. That’s motivation for you. The best part is that a friend is interested in selling his M20C between now and October, and I know very well how he has treated the bird. I’m posting this to show that a even a pessimistic (albeit dedicated) nut like myself can find a way to afford a plane and manage the associated financial risk. The added benefits are numerous and have been discussed here and elsewhere, and I am totally jazzed about the possibility of taking advantage of them. I am also more than ever convinced that waiting was the right thing for me to do until now, and that going into something like this with eyes open is the best way, for me anyway. PS. Jay, I’ll try to stop by in Sept/Oct. I should be done with my Skilsaw by then if you need to borrow it. :D
Response:
Yer Nuts, trying to figure out all the cost of this trip & that trip, what if I took the train, what is it going to cost to drive, what I will save if
I was on this road for a while in the beginning, trying to figure out whether I could one thing or another more cheaply by flying, and realized it wasn’t going to work then. I don’t have any illusions of flying being cheaper than taking the train, but then I have had a few years of finding out just how expensive the train can be as well—delays measured in 12-hour increments, lack of sleep from the condition of the rails, and hotels and rental cars because the train doesn’t quite go where I want to go are the norm. For a $1600 train fare we usually spend about $2100 on the trip with many weird excursions en route. In short, I think all travel is as you describe. I well remember the 2-week vacation to the lake when I was a kid that turned into one week at the lake, preceded by six days at a truck stop near Stockton, CA waiting for a transmission part. We were stuck at Anderson’s Split Pea Soup, and if I never eat another bowl of pea soup it will be too soon, no offense to Anderson’s—it’s good, but not for a week. I never found commercial flying to be all that reliable either. Cheaper, maybe, but the advantages of flying yourself far outweight the advantages of other forms of long-distance travel. The adventure is at least half the fun, and flying is the best adventure there is. Thanks for the response
Response:
Your typical mission needs, seem ideal for a partnership. As a suggestion, why don’t you offer to buy 50% of your friend’s Mooney? Having a good
I would absolutely love to do this, except for two things: 1. He lives across the country from me 2. He’s selling because his needs are changing Otherwise, if anyone in Little River, Ukiah, Boonville, or Willits is interested in a partnership, let me know!
Response:
Amen.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve had some minutes in an my airplane that I wouldn’t take a million dollars for. I’ve also had a coupla minutes I woulda given a million bux not to have had. Regards, Art (Mommy, I scared myself) Johnson Well in the real world, flying is the most expensive way to go. Well, now, that depends on how much value you place on your time, the aggravation of having to stand in line, take off your shoes for some TSA drone who’s gotten too big for his britches, the chance that you’ll have to do it all over again because some moron from Atlanta decided to jump the line and breach security, the chance that you may do it yet all over again because you were within eyeshot of the other TSA drone inside the terminal, the delay in departure and chance that you’ll do it YET all over again because the idiot pilots were drunk and belligerent, the lousy food, the lousy service, the attitude that everyone from the pilot to the baggage handler is doing you a favor by helping you dispose of your money in exchange for a cramped seat next to some 4 foot wide whale that wouldn’t fit into a 55 gallon drum, let alone an airline seat, but thinks that no matter how much stored Crisco she’s got stored in her humungous butt because she can’t stop stuffing her face with food she thinks she still has the right to aggravate other passenger’s lives, the potential loss of baggage and having to deal with the attitude problem from the baggage services drone, then wondering if the cab driver at your destination is going to try to rip you off, or today is his first day and he’s totally clueless when it comes to reading a map, or he smells like a mule after a 12 day trip through some swamp and has the windows closed and the a/c on high, etc., etc. Of course, if all you do is compare cost of the airline ticket vs indirect/direct cost of flying your own a/c, more than likely you’ll never make it worth your while, but then again, if you’re going to be that way, ride a Greyhound or book a ticket on Amtrak.
Response:
I suspect part of the attraction to buying is where Jefro lives. The north coast of California is a bit of a drive from anywhere. The plane rental opportunities are slim and expensive and having a plane makes it a lot more reasonable to get out of the area occasionally. Mike Clapp
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yer Nuts, trying to figure out all the cost of this trip & that trip, what if I took the train, what is it going to cost to drive, what I will save if I own a plane and fly. Well in the real world, flying is the most expensive way to go. First & always first you have to take the weather into consideration. That little item will run up your costs, and here is an example. You and your family depart and head east. You get to the mountains and guess what, you run right into a nice little storm, you know the one the briefer said would be moving out of the area, but old mother nature had other plans. So you land at a nice little airport to sit it out, should be clearing up by tomorrow. Now you have to get a taxi, get a motel, feed the family. Well that little storm gets bigger, and you are now home-steading the motel for a week. If you think you can justify owning an airplane to save money on a trip, it will not work. Once in a blue moon everything will work out just right, and the flight will go as plan, but I never really count on it. I have even arrived at my destination airport and found it closed because of a crash, I always have extra fuel for those situations, but remember you need money and options, and don’t worry about getting there on time. The way I look at it is: I get there when I get there. Clyde As many of you will remember, I am a fairly pessimistic regular here. I have done a lot of research over the past few years, created spreadsheet after spreadsheet to convince myself that I could afford to own a plane, and finally gave it up due to the financial risks involved. I really wanted to buy just a small plane, a 172 or similar, but simply couldn’t afford it. The whole thing simply stretched me too tight, particularly since the stock market has remained in the toilet. Well… Things change, though not much has changed financially. I was sniffing around at some Mooneys not long ago and it occurred to me that I was trying to cost-justify the wrong plane. Also, my flight "mission" is changing slightly in a positive direction. For background, we normally make two "long" trips each year from our home in northern California, one to southern CA by driving (for some reason it’s always in bad weather) and one to Iowa on Amtrak. We could use the 172 to get to southern CA, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking the whole family to Iowa in a 172, and I couldn’t afford a bigger plane. Between the two trips, we spend around $3k/yr. We are going to discontinue the regular trip to southern CA, maybe only go every two years now, but increase the frequency to Iowa since my Grandma turns 85 this year and her health is failing, not to mention that we have gotten closer to family there in recent years. Expected amount to spend on travelling to Iowa twice a year is about $4k. Now… as I said, I couldn’t justify making that trip in a 172, but what about a faster plane? Sniffing around Mooneys prompted me to look into it. A mid-60s Mooney M20C can be had for about the same cash outlay as a mid-70s 172, with approximately the same financial risks. BUT, the trips to Iowa could be made easily in a Mooney. If I apply the $4k/yr we spend travelling anyway to the $7k/yr I spend on flying (approx. 75hrs/yr at average $95/hr), suddenly we are into the realm of ownership. But about that pesky financial liability. What happens if an engine goes south? I’m still stuck here, but one option for coping is to have at least $15k readily available, even in form of a loan. I can afford monthly cash flow more easily than large-chunk outlay, so I’ll be taking money out of the Home Equity Line of Credit to help pay for the plane, but it drains the availability of funds in that loan to a minimum, and I’m not going to get another loan. The line of credit is a function of the value of my house. The answer? Make the house more valuable! So I’m remodeling the garage, making it into a master bedroom suite with attached home office. (I get the added advantage of a bigger office.) If I do a good job on the remodel I’ll be able to afford the plane, and the faster I get it done the sooner it will all happen. That’s motivation for you. The best part is that a friend is interested in selling his M20C between now and October, and I know very well how he has treated the bird. I’m posting this to show that a even a pessimistic (albeit dedicated) nut like myself can find a way to afford a plane and manage the associated financial risk. The added benefits are numerous and have been discussed here and elsewhere, and I am totally jazzed about the possibility of taking advantage of them. I am also more than ever convinced that waiting was the right thing for me to do until now, and that going into something like this with eyes open is the best way, for me anyway. PS. Jay, I’ll try to stop by in Sept/Oct. I should be done with my Skilsaw by then if you need to borrow it. :D
Response:
Congrats, Jefro — you’re well on the road to financial perdition… ;) I *especially* like the part about remodeling your house in order to raise the value in order to provide the line of credit you’ll need in case you lose an engine! This is creative financing at its best! (Kind or reminds me of the time I REALLY wanted a GoldWing, but had no money…so I managed to sell my Fiero, buy a Mazda GLC, AND finance the GoldWing — all for the same monthly payments. Mary was amazed. And appalled.) But I digress; you’ve got "the fever" bad, boy! ;) Now, as to the nay-sayers who have so eloquently pointed out that personal flying is not cost-justifiable, they are only partially correct. While it is true that "major-hub-to-major-hub" air (or driving) travel is usually MUCH cheaper commercially (or in your car), there are many trips that can ONLY be made realistically in a light plane. For example, our vacation to Arizona last month couldn’t have been accomplished by car — either time-wise, or by location. I simply don’t have two weeks available to drive to the Grand Canyon and back, and to pay commercial airfare for four people would have been outrageously expensive, especially when you factor in all the rental cars we would have needed. (And does United fly into Liberal, Kansas? Or Grand Canyon Airport? Not!) Thus, if you factor in all the amazing places you will visit in your own plane — and then try to figure out what it would cost to visit those SAME places commercially, and with rental cars — you will soon conclude that personal aircraft are the CHEAPEST form of transportation! In fact, using current "WorldCom" accounting techniques, you can actually show a PROFIT from flying your own plane, based on decreased expenditures! And if you simply capitalize your costs, instead of counting them as expenses, why, you might be able to retire a wealthy man on the proceeds your new Mooney provides! So, see? It IS possible to justify owning your own plane. You’ve just got to want it bad enough! PS. Jay, I’ll try to stop by in Sept/Oct. I should be done with my Skilsaw by then if you need to borrow it. :D
Thanks, man. We’ve been working on the new lobby, and I’ve suddenly remembered why I decided not to make a living in the building trades. I’m getting too old to hold a Sawz-all over my head all day! — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993
Response:
First, if you want to own a somewhat high-performance plane so much, why not a partnership? Surely you could have found someone over the years?
Two answers, (1) perhaps there haven’t been enough years, and (2) I live in a rural area with few pilots. I have nagged around the pilot’s association with no takers to date. In fact I was just this weekend bugging the airport manager to keep his ears open for anyone looking. I’m not sure I’m temperamentally suited to a partnership, but for the other rewards of ownership I would be willing to try. Second, reasoning that spending money on your house enables you to buy a plane strikes me as something that Enron would admire. Besides, if you’ve owned your home even a couple of years in California prices have risen 15%-30%. No need to remodel to increase equity.
We have only been here a year, and I need the office space anyway. Good comment about Enron, though, and something to take to heart. I am lucky enough to have a very stable job and the means to pay back the loan, and I am specifically choosing a Mooney over my real dream plane for its resale value in case something disastrous happens. However, you are right, borrowing money is always a risk. Anyway I hate houses with no garage. Just a thought.
We’re in luck! The house also has a very nice detatched 2-car garage. The original builder thought to make the attached garage in such a way that it could be easily converted to living space, and part of that was adding another garage right next to the house. It looks a little odd the way it is now. thanks for the comments
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Yer Nuts, trying to figure out all the cost of this trip & that trip, what if I took the train, what is it going to cost to drive, what I will save if I own a plane and fly. Well in the real world, flying is the most expensive way to go. First & always first you have to take the weather into consideration. That little item will run up your costs, and here is an example. You and your family depart and head east. You get to the mountains and guess what, you run right into a nice little storm, you know the one the briefer said would be moving out of the area, but old mother nature had other plans. So you land at a nice little airport to sit it out, should be clearing up by tomorrow. Now you have to get a taxi, get a motel, feed the family. Well that little storm gets bigger, and you are now home-steading the motel for a week. If you think you can justify owning an airplane to save money on a trip, it will not work. Once in a blue moon everything will work out just right, and the flight will go as plan, but I never really count on it. I have even arrived at my destination airport and found it closed because of a crash, I always have extra fuel for those situations, but remember you need money and options, and don’t worry about getting there on time. The way I look at it is: I get there when I get there. Clyde
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As many of you will remember, I am a fairly pessimistic regular here. I have done a lot of research over the past few years, created spreadsheet after spreadsheet to convince myself that I could afford to own a plane, and finally gave it up due to the financial risks involved. I really wanted to buy just a small plane, a 172 or similar, but simply couldn’t afford it. The whole thing simply stretched me too tight, particularly since the stock market has remained in the toilet. Well… Things change, though not much has changed financially. I was sniffing around at some Mooneys not long ago and it occurred to me that I was trying to cost-justify the wrong plane. Also, my flight "mission" is changing slightly in a positive direction. For background, we normally make two "long" trips each year from our home in northern California, one to southern CA by driving (for some reason it’s always in bad weather) and one to Iowa on Amtrak. We could use the 172 to get to southern CA, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking the whole family to Iowa in a 172, and I couldn’t afford a bigger plane. Between the two trips, we spend around $3k/yr. We are going to discontinue the regular trip to southern CA, maybe only go every two years now, but increase the frequency to Iowa since my Grandma turns 85 this year and her health is failing, not to mention that we have gotten closer to family there in recent years. Expected amount to spend on travelling to Iowa twice a year is about $4k. Now… as I said, I couldn’t justify making that trip in a 172, but what about a faster plane? Sniffing around Mooneys prompted me to look into it. A mid-60s Mooney M20C can be had for about the same cash outlay as a mid-70s 172, with approximately the same financial risks. BUT, the trips to Iowa could be made easily in a Mooney. If I apply the $4k/yr we spend travelling anyway to the $7k/yr I spend on flying (approx. 75hrs/yr at average $95/hr), suddenly we are into the realm of ownership. But about that pesky financial liability. What happens if an engine goes south? I’m still stuck here, but one option for coping is to have at least $15k readily available, even in form of a loan. I can afford monthly cash flow more easily than large-chunk outlay, so I’ll be taking money out of the Home Equity Line of Credit to help pay for the plane, but it drains the availability of funds in that loan to a minimum, and I’m not going to get another loan. The line of credit is a function of the value of my house. The answer? Make the house more valuable! So I’m remodeling the garage, making it into a master bedroom suite with attached home office. (I get the added advantage of a bigger office.) If I do a good job on the remodel I’ll be able to afford the plane, and the faster I get it done the sooner it will all happen. That’s motivation for you. The best part is that a friend is interested in selling his M20C between now and October, and I know very well how he has treated the bird. I’m posting this to show that a even a pessimistic (albeit dedicated) nut like myself can find a way to afford a plane and manage the associated financial risk. The added benefits are numerous and have been discussed here and elsewhere, and I am totally jazzed about the possibility of taking advantage of them. I am also more than ever convinced that waiting was the right thing for me to do until now, and that going into something like this with eyes open is the best way, for me anyway. PS. Jay, I’ll try to stop by in Sept/Oct. I should be done with my Skilsaw by then if you need to borrow it. :D
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Well in the real world, flying is the most expensive way to go.
Well, now, that depends on how much value you place on your time, the aggravation of having to stand in line, take off your shoes for some TSA drone who’s gotten too big for his britches, the chance that you’ll have to do it all over again because some moron from Atlanta decided to jump the line and breach security, the chance that you may do it yet all over again because you were within eyeshot of the other TSA drone inside the terminal, the delay in departure and chance that you’ll do it YET all over again because the idiot pilots were drunk and belligerent, the lousy food, the lousy service, the attitude that everyone from the pilot to the baggage handler is doing you a favor by helping you dispose of your money in exchange for a cramped seat next to some 4 foot wide whale that wouldn’t fit into a 55 gallon drum, let alone an airline seat, but thinks that no matter how much stored Crisco she’s got stored in her humungous butt because she can’t stop stuffing her face with food she thinks she still has the right to aggravate other passenger’s lives, the potential loss of baggage and having to deal with the attitude problem from the baggage services drone, then wondering if the cab driver at your destination is going to try to rip you off, or today is his first day and he’s totally clueless when it comes to reading a map, or he smells like a mule after a 12 day trip through some swamp and has the windows closed and the a/c on high, etc., etc. Of course, if all you do is compare cost of the airline ticket vs indirect/direct cost of flying your own a/c, more than likely you’ll never make it worth your while, but then again, if you’re going to be that way, ride a Greyhound or book a ticket on Amtrak.
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I’ve had some minutes in an my airplane that I wouldn’t take a million dollars for. I’ve also had a coupla minutes I woulda given a million bux not to have had. Regards, Art (Mommy, I scared myself) Johnson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well in the real world, flying is the most expensive way to go. Well, now, that depends on how much value you place on your time, the aggravation of having to stand in line, take off your shoes for some TSA drone who’s gotten too big for his britches, the chance that you’ll have to do it all over again because some moron from Atlanta decided to jump the line and breach security, the chance that you may do it yet all over again because you were within eyeshot of the other TSA drone inside the terminal, the delay in departure and chance that you’ll do it YET all over again because the idiot pilots were drunk and belligerent, the lousy food, the lousy service, the attitude that everyone from the pilot to the baggage handler is doing you a favor by helping you dispose of your money in exchange for a cramped seat next to some 4 foot wide whale that wouldn’t fit into a 55 gallon drum, let alone an airline seat, but thinks that no matter how much stored Crisco she’s got stored in her humungous butt because she can’t stop stuffing her face with food she thinks she still has the right to aggravate other passenger’s lives, the potential loss of baggage and having to deal with the attitude problem from the baggage services drone, then wondering if the cab driver at your destination is going to try to rip you off, or today is his first day and he’s totally clueless when it comes to reading a map, or he smells like a mule after a 12 day trip through some swamp and has the windows closed and the a/c on high, etc., etc. Of course, if all you do is compare cost of the airline ticket vs indirect/direct cost of flying your own a/c, more than likely you’ll never make it worth your while, but then again, if you’re going to be that way, ride a Greyhound or book a ticket on Amtrak.
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Jefro, Don’t even try to cost justify owning a plane – you never can. It’s an emotional thing. If you did this before you married, had kids or bought a dog, you wouldn’t have any of them. Like your family, an aircraft costs serious money to keep, but the pleasure you get is worth every penny. Your typical mission needs, seem ideal for a partnership. As a suggestion, why don’t you offer to buy 50% of your friend’s Mooney? Having a good partnership *significantly* reduces cost of ownership, and if there are only two of you, access to the plane for a couple of weeks at a time is unlikely to be an issue. Regards,
As many of you will remember, I am a fairly pessimistic regular here. I have done a lot of research over the past few years, created spreadsheet after spreadsheet to convince myself that I could afford to own a plane, and finally gave it up due to the financial risks involved.
SNIP The best part is that a friend is interested in selling his M20C between now and October, and I know very well how he has treated the bird.
SNIP
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IMO damn good advice, especially since the plane you’re interested in is owned by someone you already consider a good friend and you seem to think that he takes good care of it.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jefro, Don’t even try to cost justify owning a plane – you never can. It’s an emotional thing. If you did this before you married, had kids or bought a dog, you wouldn’t have any of them. Like your family, an aircraft costs serious money to keep, but the pleasure you get is worth every penny. Your typical mission needs, seem ideal for a partnership. As a suggestion, why don’t you offer to buy 50% of your friend’s Mooney? Having a good partnership *significantly* reduces cost of ownership, and if there are only two of you, access to the plane for a couple of weeks at a time is unlikely to be an issue. Regards, As many of you will remember, I am a fairly pessimistic regular here. I have done a lot of research over the past few years, created spreadsheet after spreadsheet to convince myself that I could afford to own a plane, and finally gave it up due to the financial risks involved. SNIP The best part is that a friend is interested in selling his M20C between now and October, and I know very well how he has treated the bird. SNIP
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The line of credit is a function of the value of my house. The answer? Make the house more valuable! So I’m remodeling the garage,
Coupla comments. OK three. First, if you want to own a somewhat high-performance plane so much, why not a partnership? Surely you could have found someone over the years? Second, reasoning that spending money on your house enables you to buy a plane strikes me as something that Enron would admire. Besides, if you’ve owned your home even a couple of years in California prices have risen 15%-30%. No need to remodel to increase equity. Anyway I hate houses with no garage. Just a thought.
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As many of you will remember, I am a fairly pessimistic regular here. I have done a lot of research over the past few years, created spreadsheet after spreadsheet to convince myself that I could afford to own a plane, and finally gave it up due to the financial risks involved. I really wanted to buy just a small plane, a 172 or similar, but simply couldn’t afford it. The whole thing simply stretched me too tight, particularly since the stock market has remained in the toilet. Well… Things change, though not much has changed financially. I was sniffing around at some Mooneys not long ago and it occurred to me that I was trying to cost-justify the wrong plane. Also, my flight "mission" is changing slightly in a positive direction. For background, we normally make two "long" trips each year from our home in northern California, one to southern CA by driving (for some reason it’s always in bad weather) and one to Iowa on Amtrak. We could use the 172 to get to southern CA, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking the whole family to Iowa in a 172, and I couldn’t afford a bigger plane. Between the two trips, we spend around $3k/yr. We are going to discontinue the regular trip to southern CA, maybe only go every two years now, but increase the frequency to Iowa since my Grandma turns 85 this year and her health is failing, not to mention that we have gotten closer to family there in recent years. Expected amount to spend on travelling to Iowa twice a year is about $4k. Now… as I said, I couldn’t justify making that trip in a 172, but what about a faster plane? Sniffing around Mooneys prompted me to look into it. A mid-60s Mooney M20C can be had for about the same cash outlay as a mid-70s 172, with approximately the same financial risks. BUT, the trips to Iowa could be made easily in a Mooney. If I apply the $4k/yr we spend travelling anyway to the $7k/yr I spend on flying (approx. 75hrs/yr at average $95/hr), suddenly we are into the realm of ownership. But about that pesky financial liability. What happens if an engine goes south? I’m still stuck here, but one option for coping is to have at least $15k readily available, even in form of a loan. I can afford monthly cash flow more easily than large-chunk outlay, so I’ll be taking money out of the Home Equity Line of Credit to help pay for the plane, but it drains the availability of funds in that loan to a minimum, and I’m not going to get another loan. The line of credit is a function of the value of my house. The answer? Make the house more valuable! So I’m remodeling the garage, making it into a master bedroom suite with attached home office. (I get the added advantage of a bigger office.) If I do a good job on the remodel I’ll be able to afford the plane, and the faster I get it done the sooner it will all happen. That’s motivation for you. The best part is that a friend is interested in selling his M20C between now and October, and I know very well how he has treated the bird. I’m posting this to show that a even a pessimistic (albeit dedicated) nut like myself can find a way to afford a plane and manage the associated financial risk. The added benefits are numerous and have been discussed here and elsewhere, and I am totally jazzed about the possibility of taking advantage of them. I am also more than ever convinced that waiting was the right thing for me to do until now, and that going into something like this with eyes open is the best way, for me anyway. PS. Jay, I’ll try to stop by in Sept/Oct. I should be done with my Skilsaw by then if you need to borrow it. :D
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Question:
From previous posts, I know that Elliot works out of home.. (snipped for space) ** Mike, just as an addendum to my first reply, I thought I’d add something that Rosita reminded me of from her post:) While she has a good point, I’d like to carry it a bit further. Rosita’s suggested that she found getting "out" quite important for her. She added that she enjoys what she’s doing. These are "both" quite important, I’d certainly think, and if you could find something that fits the bill, that would certainly be an option to look for.
Hi, Elliot…..I thank you for your suggestions mentioned here……But I *never saw* your first reply…….and I have yet to see Rosita’s…..:(((( Don’t know what is going on with my newsreader…….I have received others….:(( But again, thanks to you……and to ALL ….. who posted replies….. !! MikeH
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Hi Mike, I work from home too, but not because of my agoraphobia, which was years ago. I got tired of the rat race and office politics, so I went back to school for 2 years, and I am now a medical transcriptionist. I live in Colorado Springs but do work for Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore. Ain’t technology grand? I also have some local doctors I transcribe for. I love getting up in my jammies and going to work, but I also make sure that I have a lot of outside contacts. There are a lot of men getting into the field now, but it does take awhile to get your speed up, so you can make a decent living at this. Good luck to you in whatever you decide to do. Joan Does anyone – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – else here in the newsgroup have a home-based business?? I want *desperately* to find something **legitimate** to do from home……
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(Jwelchco) writes: I got tired of the rat race and office politics, so I went back to school for 2 years, and I am now a medical transcriptionist. I live
in Colorado Springs but do work for Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore. How? where? who??? I wanna be like you-hoo.. How can I get into transcriptions?? Rosita working in pajamas ia apealing
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How? where? who??? I wanna be like you-hoo.. How can I get into transcriptions??
Okay Rosita, here goes: You can contact the American Association for Medical Transcription (AAMT) at 209-551-0883 (sorry I could not find an 800# for you). They will be able to direct you, and I also believe they have some home study courses you can take (takes a lot of discipline). They also have a Web site, which they have mentioned in their journal but did not give the site name. You can check out this newsgroup (sci.med.transcription), which has tons of information and a lot of people like you asking questions about getting into the business. Next, you can call a community college or technical college in your area and see if they have a program. Some have certificate programs and some have associate’s degrees. Hope this helps! Joan
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Yes, Yes, Rosita! This is a wonderful idea. Look into it. The mystery place where I work counsels and trains people for new work and jobs, mostly under JTPA grant funds. Right now, MANY doctors in our area are letting their medical transcriptionists go and "farming" the work out to independent contractors, which is what you would be. I trained one such person to use a computer. Her little business is booming. BUT, you need to do just as Joan has told you. Go for a certificate program. Then go after the work! Also seek help from a group that will help you learn to run your own business. One such group is called SCORE which is a group of retired business people who volunteer their services for people just like you. You might qualify for funding for this if you look into training availability in your area. — … Tasha … ~8) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How? where? who??? I wanna be like you-hoo.. How can I get into transcriptions?? Okay Rosita, here goes: You can contact the American Association for Medical Transcription (AAMT) at 209-551-0883 (sorry I could not find an 800# for you). They will be able to direct you, and I also believe they have some home study courses you can take (takes a lot of discipline). They also have a Web site, which they have mentioned in their journal but did not give the site name. You can check out this newsgroup (sci.med.transcription), which has tons of information and a lot of people like you asking questions about getting into the business. Next, you can call a community college or technical college in your area and see if they have a program. Some have certificate programs and some have associate’s degrees. Hope this helps! Joan
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From previous posts, I know that Elliot works out of home…….Does anyone else here in the newsgroup have a home-based business?? I want *desperately* to find something **legitimate** to do from home…….or I have NO idea how to even begin. I just need a change in work environments…….very badly……the depression and anxiety has been so much worse for the past two years….and it is definitely work related…..But I have done the same thing for 24 years, and I am afraid to change…..but also afraid to stay where I am……:((
<snipped for space Hi, Mike – yes, I work from home, too and have done since 1976, when the first tsunami of agoraphobia forced me out of my job. Over the years, several people have suggested to me that working from home is a soft option and that it doesn’t make me face my fears and phobias. To a degree this is true but, then again, I simply had no alternative when this began – it was try to earn some money from home or go broke. Since then, for all the harm it may have done me, by enabling me to avoid confronting things, I think that, on balance, it has been good for me. I can’t offer much concrete advice because things are, I’m sure, different in the USA, though possibly not *very* different in the broad outlines. In those terms, the thing you *must* be careful about is the obvious one – money. There is a world of insecurity waiting for the self-employed and if you are one of those who agonizes over money then *please* think it through very carefully. You might be escaping a grinding, humiliating or even mentally dangerous job, but you might also be locking yourself into uncertainty you won’t like either. That said, obviously, you have to find something you *can* do from home. Being a journalist who dabbles in PR, this wasn’t hard for me, but not everyone is in an area where they have ready-made expertise. If you haven’t, my advice would be to get training. Read books, go on some courses, talk to people but *avoid franchises, MLM and home working scams* and, if at all possible, start on a part-time basis and work towards going at it full-time from there. Hope that’s some help – good luck! — Gary Cooper
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I Mike H wrote to say: < I want *desperately* to find something **legitimate** to do from web and ads…..<snip….the depression and anxiety has been so much worse for the past two years….and it is definitely work related….
Mike, as a fellow depressed soul, I have to tell you that working ‘outside’ my home is what keeps me from calling Dr. Kevorkian . Of course et helps that I do like my job, but even when I had one that I hated, I knew that leaving the house was the best medicine for depression. Having to work outside my home ‘forced me’to get out of bed, and ‘forced me’ to put on decent clothes, comb my hair, put on make up etc, and once out of the house I received sun light, felt the breeze, and at my job I ‘had to’ smile, had to concentrate on what I was supposed to do, and that helped me get my mind on other things. But, since your job is what keeps you depressed, then maybe it will work, is like they say in my country "Life is like a crowded city bus, the ones inside want to get out and the ones out want to get in but neither can" Rosita Good luck in finding your rainbow
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Re: Working out of the home. I work out of my home doing tax preparation. I am an Enrolled Agent which means I have taken four tests over a period of two days covering many aspects of tax. I have a background in accounting which helps. It will take time to build up a decent business but I think it is interesting work. I also research stocks so that keeps me busy too. Cindy is right about all the health insurane fees, although we are getting a break with the new tax legislation, not enough to celebrate with, but better than nothing. Liz m –
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CW wrote to Mike: Since this is not a medical related issue, I would think that people would feel a little more comfortable offering advice, however you really did not give us much to go on, as far as what you have done or what you would like to do.
This is a valuable subject for all of us that have been agoraphobic from time to time. Alot of self-esteem can be built back if you are doing something productive and revenue producing. Not to mention, for those that are working "out there" that might be much more comfortable and have less stress in their daily lives if they could find something income producing to do at home. Hope this helps KC Cindy
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From previous posts, I know that Elliot works out of home…….Does anyone else here in the newsgroup have a home-based business?? I want *desperately* to find something **legitimate** to do from home…….or I have NO idea how to even begin. I just need a change in work environments…….very badly……the depression and anxiety has been so much worse for the past two years….and it is definitely work related…..But I have done the same thing for 24 years, and I am afraid to change…..but also afraid to stay where I am……:(( If anyone has any tips on where to look, how to look, how to begin, etc,….I would greatly appreciate them……I’ve checked out the Small Business Association on the web….and lots of "get rich quick" ideas from newsgroups…..I don’t have a lot to invest, so I don’t want to get suckered…. You guys are some of the nicest people in the world. I post occasionally…..but I read everyday!!! Thanks……MikeH
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Mike H wrote to say: < I want – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -*desperately* to find something **legitimate** to do from home…….or ads…..But I have NO idea how to even begin. I just need a change in work environments…….very badly……the depression and anxiety has been so much worse for the past two years….and it is definitely work related…..But I have done the same thing for 24 years, and I am afraid to change…..but also afraid to stay where I am……:(( If anyone has any tips on where to look, how to look, how to begin, etc,….I would greatly appreciate them……I’ve checked out the Small Business Association on the web….and lots of "get rich quick" ideas from newsgroups…..I don’t have a lot to invest, so I don’t want to get suckered….
Mike……first thing is first. Don’t give up your day job and make a radical move. Start working from home part time. When the money gets close, then you can make your move. Don’t foget little things like benefits of insurance, 401K’s and stuff like that to figure in. When we started our own business, our health insurance was $435 a month!! But with me being a mental basket case, we had to keep it. Anyway, books, there are some GREAT books out there for homebased businesses. The best book with the best information I loaned out and can’t remember who I loaned it to. I don’t recall the title, it was something like "101 Home-Based Businesses" and it gave explicit information on how to study demographics, advertise, supplies, approx start-up cost, and how to generate business. Another cool one is "Earning Money Without A Job" by Jay Conrad Levinson (author of "Guerilla Marketing") And if you are handy with your computer a good book to look at is "Health Service Businesses on your Home-Based PC" by Rick Benzel. For a "pantload" (can I say that or is that plagiarism?) of informational books go to AMAZON books….. http://www.amazon.com under "subject" type in "home based businesses" and you will be able to browse available books from your computer. You’ll find everything from making cookies at home (that’s how Mrs. Fields got started) to investment brokerages at home. If you are good at typing, transcribing is pretty good paying job. Businesses use it, medical facilities, lawyers….and a transcribing machine is about $150. Some medical transcribers earn $40 – $70K a year, depending on your location and area of expertise, however it takes about six months of hard study to learn the lingo. There are also home based study courses you can get through the mail for various businesses. But they run about $200 to $2000 depending on what you wanna study. Again, as always, in any at home study program, Caveat Emptor!!! Hope this helps KC Cindy
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Question:
jtbands asks: Apologies if this is an FAQ, but can anyone advise what the latest thinking is on the merits/demerits of doing stretching exercises before going for a run? The reason I ask is that I always used to do this, but recently I was told by a colleague that it was better simply to warm up by running slowly for a while. Stretching cold muscles is more harm than good seems to be the general idea. According to Tim Noakes in Lore of Running, it’s not necessary to do a warmup run before stretching (He cites a 1986 study that apparently demonstrated it’s not true that warm muscles stretch better). Noakes also says, and this too contradicts the conventional wisdom, that if you must choose it’s better to stretch BEFORE running rather than after (obviously it’s best to do both). He says the increased flexibility you gain from stretching lasts for up to three hours. I assume, though, that this means doing a pretty thorough stretching routine beforehand (10 or 15 minutes). I suspect that most of us, for better or worse, tend to stretch less than we should. HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Twisted Freaks of History HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – jtbands asks: Apologies if this is an FAQ, but can anyone advise what the latest thinking is on the merits/demerits of doing stretching exercises before going for a run? The reason I ask is that I always used to do this, but recently I was told by a colleague that it was better simply to warm up by running slowly for a while. Stretching cold muscles is more harm than good seems to be the general idea. According to Tim Noakes in Lore of Running, it’s not necessary to do a warmup run before stretching (He cites a 1986 study that apparently demonstrated it’s not true that warm muscles stretch better). Noakes also says, and this too contradicts the conventional wisdom, that if you must choose it’s better to stretch BEFORE running rather than after (obviously
My theory is that the benefits of stretching are principally realised over the long term. I therefore stretch fairly regularly, and run fairly regularly, but the two activities are not necessarily done in close proximity. It so happens that I like to run in the afternoon and like to stretch just before going to bed (another benefit of stretching is that it relaxes me and makes finding a comfortable sleeping position easy). only sometimes do i stretch before or after a run, it just depends how I feel. In any case, stretching should be really easy, more like meditation than exercise. End of my theory Cheers, Mark. — Mark Peters Department of Artificial Intelligence School of Computer Science and Engineering fax: +61-(0)2-9385 1814 Sydney NSW 2052 Australia mobile: +61-(0)15 705 854 http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~markpeters
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: RW briefly mentioned a study some time back that indicated pre-run : stretching could be worse than no stretching at all and that : stretching afterward was best. No details about the type of study were : mentioned. My own personal conjecture on this is that while pre-run stretching done properly is not of itself harmful, it does increase injury risk. This is due the fact that one begins the run with greater flexibility, leading one to run faster than normal. The subsequent stress of running too hard may be the issue. Purely guesswork, no facts. -pfrench
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I suspect that most of us, for better or worse, tend to stretch less than we should. True. I haven’t stretched at all in six years. But I’ve been meaning to
Clinton, MS 39058 Running is kinetic stretching. So proper running is helpful in keeping one’s range of motion (ROM). The problem is not the physical stretching or warming up; I see the issue more as a matter of stretching the mind and the brain and their perceptions. 1. The way most people walk they never give the quad any stretch at all. Watch people walk and you will notice the snap of the knee and the landing on the heel of the back of the shoe. Because of posture the weight is on the back leg which does not lend itself to the quad ever getting much of a stretch. 2. People’s running will be influenced by the way they walk. Their walking and running will be influenced by the ROM through which their muscles can go. If you really want to shorten a muscle unnecessarily, then keep overstretching it or stretching it improperly and you will succeed. The muscle will tighten up to protect itself from your forced stretching. Go too far and you trigger the stretch reflex which protects the muscle from getting too stretched. 3. There’s the fascia around the muscle (I call it the sausage skin). Fascia can contract and can be stretched. Don’t keep it stretched by moving improperly or injuring a muscle and it contracts…and won’t let the muscle go. When you injure yourself, fascia contracts to protect and splint the muscle from any stress or further tension. If you want to know the feeling of fascia letting go, just remember the Indian wrist burn. That feeling is fasica letting go, burning sharp sensation identified by most as pain. When fascia lets go and all of a sudden your range of motion increases, you realize the impact of the body stocking of the fascia suit you wear under your skin. Ida Rolf dealt with it directly. Bess Mensendieck, Alexander, Feldenkrais, Mattes Active Isolated Stretching and other work on a gradual increasing of the ROM which requires an active mind and being a good animal. I have yet to see a cat read any books on stretching. Springing onto a dresser drawer top five feet high-takes strength and more important flexibility (ROM). The secret is the ROM, flexibility. That’s why a thinner Tiger Woods can drive with a big, strong driver like John Daly. 4. Research has shown that if you do the hurdler’s stretch (bent leg in front) and hunch forward with the upper body, the hunching of the upper body causes the pelvis to roll back posteriorly…meaning that the distance between the origin of the hamstring and its insertion shortens. It is better to keep the body erect and focus on bending the pelvis forward which increases the distance between the origin and insertion of the hamstring. That’s why if you slouch, the pelvis is rolling back posteriorly and you practice shortening your hamstrings sometimes 4 to 12 hours a day and you think that the issue is warming up and then stretching. The thinking body is stretching properly all the time because, it/you are aware of how you play with walking, standing, sitting and moving. (I’ll write about my 90 Hour A Week Workout soon) 5. Most of us runners and a lot of walkers suffer from psychoslerosis, that’s hardening of the head. How many F’s do you see in this sentence: FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE- SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF- IC STUDY COMBINED WITH THE EXPERIENCE OF MANY YEARS OF EXPERTS. That’s exactly what I mean. You see but you don’t see. 6. Every running step is a stretch. We talk about pushing off but I look at it a little differently. I am using gravity and the rest of my body to pull myself away as quickly as possible from the foot which is planted on the ground. The gluts and hamstring account for that. If the right foot is on the ground, the left knee driving forward is using illio-psoas and quad and stretching the left hamstring/glut as it explodes away from the right foot. The right arm is used symmetrically to stop the exploding left knee driven by quad and illio-psoas from torquing to the right. The next moment the left foot is on the ground and left quad/illio-psoas are being stretched and the left hamstring contracts as it joins the left glut to catapult the body forward-accounting for about 55% of the forward thrust. So the left hamstring/glut contracts while left quad/illio-psoas stretches at the exact same time the right hamstring/glut stretch and the right quad/illio- psoas are contracting. And in the next step it is reversed, and the next step reversed back,….and on….and on…for a mile or 26.2 miles. It’s range of motion. If I can relax muscles through a longer range of motion, that is they can stretch further, then the opposite muscles don’t have to work hard against supposed relaxed muscles which are shortened (smaller range of motion) and thereby cause my working muscles to work against the semi relaxed muscles which are really suppose to be relaxed (because they can stretch and not cause the working muscles(quad/illio-psoas) to work against resistance-a semi contracted but suppose to be relaxed muscle (ham/glut). If the hams and quads are shortened, semi contracted all the time because of muscle tension or because of a tight body stocking (fascia) which doesn’t allow them go thought their full ROM, then the abdominals and spinus erectus muscles will have trouble keeping the pelvis leveled affecting the ROM even more…and so tight hams shorten the distance between the origin in the back of the pelvis while the tightened quads pull down on the front of the pelvis causing the pelvis to decrease in its range of motion. So it’s not a matter of strength. If you are standing and attempt to raise your straightened right leg as high as you can, it’s not because the quad/ psoas aren’t strong enough, it’s because the hamstring can let go enough (relax or stretch) to allow you to bring your right leg above 90 degrees or closer to your chest…like a ballerina or gymnast. 6. So tonus means keeping muscles in shape to more through their full range of motion. If they can’t then the opposite muscles are fighting the working muscles. So to keep tonus, there must be a correct way to keep the muscles capable of executing their full range of motion. 7. So running is stretching if done correctly. Sitting is stretching if done correctly. Moving is stretching if done correctly. Laying down is stretching if done correctly. Driving my car is stretching if done correctly. Over the past 18 months I’ve collected names and talked to a lot of posters on rec.running and have asked them to be a part of my beta-test group through whom I could expose to my thoughts, ideas, techniques and perceptions on running form and style, breathing, injury prevention, etc. for a book I have been compiling for the past 20 years under the working name, Mindful Running. If you’ve read this far, then you might be NOT rec.running. If you e-mail rec.running to respond to this post, I will not include you in the beta-test group, since you have failed the first test. Oh, how many F’s did you see. If you said 3, 4, or 5, go back and count the number of "OF’s." Our minds are so use to them that we didn’t see what was there. Hmmmmmmmmm! Damn, 7. If you want to see a little of what I am thinking and on what I have reflected and some of meanderings of a "Running Therapist and Sometime Mindful Runner" then check out Mindful Running on John Doss’ web site: http://www.arizonaroadracers.com. He has been kind enough to collect some of my writings and post them on his site. — In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer-rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
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I suspect that most of us, for better or worse, tend to stretch less than we should.
True. I haven’t stretched at all in six years. But I’ve been meaning to start. — Mississippi College (601)925-5638 Clinton, MS 39058
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According to Tim Noakes in Lore of Running, it’s not necessary to do a warmup run before stretching (He cites a 1986 study that apparently demonstrated it’s not true that warm muscles stretch better). Noakes also says, and this too contradicts the conventional wisdom, that if you must choose it’s better to stretch BEFORE running rather than after (obviously
RW briefly mentioned a study some time back that indicated pre-run stretching could be worse than no stretching at all and that stretching afterward was best. No details about the type of study were mentioned. IMNSHO if you work out and then don’t take time to stretch, pumping waste and metabolites out of your muscles and restoring their flexible condition, you’re asking for trouble. In my experience stretching afterward has a much more beneficial effect than before and not after. Best regards, Brian P. Baresch, National Sports Massage Team speaking for myself
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Apologies if this is an FAQ, but can anyone advise what the latest thinking is on the merits/demerits of doing stretching exercises before going for a run? The reason I ask is that I always used to do this, but recently I was told by a colleague that it was better simply to warm up by running slowly for a while. Stretching cold muscles is more harm than good seems to be the general idea. Can anyone shed light? If stretching is important, what should be stretched and how should it be stretched? I’d be most grateful for any advice. Jonathan Bands Johannesburg, South Africa
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…can anyone advise what the latest thinking is on the merits/demerits of
doing stretching exercises…stretching cold muscles…can anyone shed light?…what should be stretched and how should it be stretched? Some expert advice on stretching can be found at www.clark.net/pub/pribut/spstretc.html Now for the non-expert advice. When I was at low mileage (< 5miles per week) I found that I didn’t have to stretch and couldn’t understand all of the hangups on this issue. Now that I am at 15 miles per week I found I HAVE to stretch (a little before and a lot after the run) or my old buddy Shin Splints re-visits me. I got what I felt was some good advice from my ultra-marathoner brother-in-law. He stated that if your muscles get sore in the first few miles you should have stretched more before you ran. If your muscles are o.k. during the run – and you don’t strech after your run – then your muscles get really sore afterwards, you should have either stretched (or stretched a little more). Listen to your legs. Robby Shelton
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Apologies if this is an FAQ, but can anyone advise what the latest thinking is on the merits/demerits of doing stretching exercises before going for a run? The reason I ask is that I always used to do this, but recently I was told by a colleague that it was better simply to warm up by running slowly for a while. Stretching cold muscles is more harm than good seems to be the general idea. Can anyone shed light? If stretching is important, what should be stretched and how should it be stretched? I’d be most grateful for any advice. Jonathan Bands Johannesburg, South Africa
there have been at least a couple of reports stating that 1) run slowly for a while 2) then stretch if you desire. The one report that comes to mind is the University of California Wellness Newsletter (circa 1990)
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