Question:

A customer’s credit card is accidentally charged twice, and the overcharged amount is deposited to the seller’s bank accounts.   The mistake is caught four days later and reversed.  What is the best way to do the accounting for these transactions? One of the two charges is correct and is used to pay off an open invoice, clearing the accounts receivable.  Where should the second charge that is in mistake go?   Would it be better to make this deposit an Other Current Asset or Other Current Liability up until it is cleared by the credit to the customer’s card? — Will

Response:

I would create a clearing account if you don’t already have one, and transfer the second charge to that account.  That way, you have a balance sitting in the clearing account until you process the adjustments, which should go to this same account to clear the balance.  All the entries are then quite visible and reconcilable. Ken Russell .

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A customer’s credit card is accidentally charged twice, and the overcharged amount is deposited to the seller’s bank accounts.   The mistake is caught four days later and reversed.  What is the best way to do the accounting for these transactions? One of the two charges is correct and is used to pay off an open invoice, clearing the accounts receivable.  Where should the second charge that is in mistake go?   Would it be better to make this deposit an Other Current Asset or Other Current Liability up until it is cleared by the credit to the customer’s card? — Will

Response:

My question was should the Clearing account be a current asset or current liability. — Will Internet: westes at earthbroadcast.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would create a clearing account if you don’t already have one, and transfer the second charge to that account.  That way, you have a balance sitting in the clearing account until you process the adjustments, which should go to this same account to clear the balance.  All the entries are then quite visible and reconcilable.

Response:

Take your pick, It doesn’t matter much.  The account will end up with a zero balance; if it has a balance at year-end it will be classified either as an asset or liability depending on whether it’s a debit or credit balance. — Ken Russell .

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My question was should the Clearing account be a current asset or current liability. — Will Internet: westes at earthbroadcast.com I would create a clearing account if you don’t already have one, and transfer the second charge to that account.  That way, you have a balance sitting in the clearing account until you process the adjustments, which should go to this same account to clear the balance.  All the entries are then quite visible and reconcilable.

Response:

Actually, it can be very convenient to make the clearing account a "Bank".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Take your pick, It doesn’t matter much.  The account will end up with a zero balance; if it has a balance at year-end it will be classified either as an asset or liability depending on whether it’s a debit or credit balance. — Ken Russell . My question was should the Clearing account be a current asset or current liability. — Will Internet: westes at earthbroadcast.com I would create a clearing account if you don’t already have one, and transfer the second charge to that account.  That way, you have a balance sitting in the clearing account until you process the adjustments, which should go to this same account to clear the balance.  All the entries are then quite visible and reconcilable.

Response:

I like to use a Bank account when the money in question is actually leaving the account.   For example, you deposit a check written on a UK bank to a U.S. bank.    The next day the bank takes the money out of your account and tells you that they are waiting for the check to clear before releasing funds.   Six weeks later, the money is deposited back in the account (I actually had a check written on a UK bank take this long to clear!). So money is received against an invoice to clear the accounts receivable and deposited to your normal bank account.   The next day you move the money over to the Bank account with a name like "Checks Waiting to Clear".   This gives you a clean accounting for why the money no longer appears in your daily balance for the primary bank account, but you don’t lose it off the balance sheet. The case I was asking about is one where the money *stays* in the bank account.   So you double charge a customer, and the money really does come into your bank account and stays there until you elect to credit it back to the customer’s credit card.    In this case you don’t want the paper trail to leave your primary bank account. — Will

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, it can be very convenient to make the clearing account a "Bank".

Response:

I’d treat it as a liability since it is money you owe back to your customer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My question was should the Clearing account be a current asset or current liability.

Response:

Setting up another account would just create clutter in your chart of accounts.  I would recommend that you just apply the overpayment to the customer’s account (Dr to cash, Cr to A/R).  The credit balance will show on the customer’s account (and statement).  This is where it should show.  Your accounting records will reflect the economic activity that occurred. When the charge is reversed, then an entry will bring the customer’s account back into balance… (Dr to A/R, Cr to cash). A final thought… if everything cleared in four days, then besides maintaining your customer’s goodwill, it really won’t matter (unless the timing of the events crosses over fiscal periods) Just my thoughts… Regards, Russell Tuncap, CMA, CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A customer’s credit card is accidentally charged twice, and the overcharged amount is deposited to the seller’s bank accounts.   The mistake is caught four days later and reversed.  What is the best way to do the accounting for these transactions? One of the two charges is correct and is used to pay off an open invoice, clearing the accounts receivable.  Where should the second charge that is in mistake go?   Would it be better to make this deposit an Other Current Asset or Other Current Liability up until it is cleared by the credit to the customer’s card?

Response:

Question:

hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Jim’s more objective about it than you are, Mike.  Given your problem, you’re not going to find a better solution. Joe Calypso Green ‘93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black ‘03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim?

I would suggest that if you aren’t willing to pay this small amount to get your vehicle fixed, that you are not being very realistic about what it takes to repair most things. The diagnostic computers, cables and the training needed to operate all of this is fairly expensive. The total operating costs for a repair business are very high and you are expected to pay for the time you use up. You are whining about a very small repair bill.

Response:

Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words….

Very well said. I can’t begin to imagine why he is complaining about such a tiny repair bill. It is truly amazing that he is mad because someone could actually fix his vehicle for such a small amount.

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim?

Mike, Why don’t you buy your own diagnostic computer, go to school for quite some time, buy all the tools you need for this job and than use your own connections to order the special parts you need. Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it. That is what a mechanic thinks when people bitch about paying for repair services. Claud

Response:

don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective,  do ya jim? I would suggest that if you aren’t willing to pay this small amount to get your vehicle fixed, that you are not being very realistic about what it takes to repair most things. The diagnostic computers, cables and the training needed to operate all of this is fairly expensive. The total operating costs for a repair business are very high and you are expected to pay for the time you use up. You are whining about a very small repair bill.

I’d say it’s a normal screw job. Dealer repair bill, credit card, learning experience, priceless!

Response:

** let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me ** for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed ** there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. The money sounds pretty reasonable to me.  The diagnosis is what is worth it’s weight in gold; installing a part isn’t that big a deal, but hiring a specialist to properly diagnose a problem like this is where the magic happens, and most outfits need to collect about $75/hr. to make any money at all.  Kwitcherbellyachin and pay the man.  Or fix it yourself! I’m taking The Winter Beater in today for a very simple yet vexing problem: I dropped a bolt down into the pulley assembly, and it somehow managed to get behind the crank pulley and won’t come out.  Makes a hellacious amount of noise, and if I drive it much, it will eventually take out the seal and bearing.  It’s FWD (damn!) and the only way you can pull that crank pulley is to lift the engine out of the cradle – there is only 3/4" in. between the pulley and the frame.  Hellova design, I’ll tell ya.  The cost: $75.00/hr. for the man’s time, and I’ll gladly pay it.  I don’t expect these people to work for free.  I sure as hell wouldn’t. Regards, -JD JD’s Locally-Famous Mustang Page: http:/207.13.104.8/users/jdadams

Response:

Well I would have defeated the asinine shift interlock switch  with 10 cents worth of wire and two connectors( go figure, I know how to operate the gas and the brake pedal without big brother coddling me!) Problem solved.  But then again I know what to do. That must be worth something? Knowledge, Ability,Experience, Tools, Equipment, Facilities, Heating, Maintenance, Supplies, Fuel, Insurance etc. The longer my resume gets the more money I’d like to make. Do you work for free? Do you take a pay cut as you get more knowledgeable in your job? I estimate jobs for living. I’m pure overhead. I’m fairly well paid yet produce nothing but a "paper" quote. I’m literally paid for what I know. I have to figure my cost into a job and believe me nothing is free. I used to think in similar terms but have realized that people that have skills are well sought after and are usually worth spending the money on. The jobs are often done better and faster. You could spend days shopping around to save a few dollars but what is your time worth? Once you found someone that has a reasonable price (to you) and does good work, you should hang on to them. If you have issues with poor service that is another story. Vote with your wallet.  I do most of my car work myself but I like to say it takes a professional to know when to call another professional. There are some jobs better left to the people that know.  StuK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Mike, My ‘96 Contour has the same problem in extremely cold weather.  My shop looked at it and a slight oil leak.  Said it’d take $800 because you have to get the entire shifter from FoMoCo.  No individual parts available.  Or, they’d take out the interlock for < $200.  I decided to exercise my right arm and force it to work until warmer weather comes along.  They snugged up the bolts on the oil pan and transmission.  The leak stopped.  Cost me $29. — John If you Reply, be sure and remove the " (DELETE_THIS) " from the email address.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

John, I don’t want to sound like the devils advocate but I have to wonder about your shop. We have nowhere near the useless litigation that those in the states experience (though we appear to be catching up)….. I steadfastly refuse to enter into a modification that will render a safety device inoperative. While hacking the repair might save a few bucks, there is the ever so slight chance that I might be named correspondant in a criminal neglect case. The accountants mistake will get you a slap on the wrist, the shoe salesmans mistake will make your feet hurt…… my mistake can make someone very, very dead. Our automobiles are fun to drive, they offer us freedom our forebears could never even dream of, they are a convenience device that ever so many of us heartless beast waiting for us to unleash the deathly power that they have (a little too dramatic????) – the car is a machine and it really doesn’t care who lives and who dies but we have the "power" to control it…. Sorry if it sounds like I’m venting… your post just set us up for something I wanted to say sooner or later…. Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike, My ‘96 Contour has the same problem in extremely cold weather.  My shop looked at it and a slight oil leak.  Said it’d take $800 because you have to get the entire shifter from FoMoCo.  No individual parts available.  Or, they’d take out the interlock for < $200.  I decided to exercise my right arm and force it to work until warmer weather comes along.  They snugged up the bolts on the oil pan and transmission.  The leak stopped.  Cost me $29. —

Response:

Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at. Years ago, cars were very simple (comparatively speaking) machines that could be fixed by anyone that was "good with their hands". Over my 35+ years of being involved in the trade, I have watched the car metamorphose into a machine that rivals the complexity of the space shuttle…. being "good with your hands" is still important for mundane repairs (though building and materials technology has us relearn many basics) but we are now faced with multiplexed communications networks. The PC that everyone seeing this post on is an abacus compared to a late model car. Being "good with your hands" just isn’t good enough for most repairs. All I can suggest is for consumers to accept the fact that they will pay diagnostic time….. in our shop we diagnose the concern (this includes time to duplicate the concern…. I can’t fix what ain’t broke) and prepare an estimate. The customer pays diagnostic time…… A written estimate is prepared and offered up to the customer. If I don’t fix the car right the first time, I don’t get paid…… and, in all honesty, I shouldn’t (though it escapes me why the doctor that lets me die is going to get paid for his mistake). When it comes time to drop our car off for servicing, we need to be honest…. leaving stuff out isn’t going to make the bill any cheaper and just may reduce it in some cases. Be available for consultation…… if I have your car apart in the bay and we can’t get in touch with you, you will either pay for me to push the car out or pay for me to reassemble whatever is disassembled just so I can disassemble it again for the repair. Cheap shops aren’t generally good and expensive shops aren’t necessarily good…. talk to your friends and relatives to see where they like to go. Remember that the guy that does ball joints for a decent price isn’t necessarily the guy that can handle electronic woes in a timely, economic fashion. If consumers can educate themselves, the bad guys will eventually be forced out of the system… probably a slow painful process. Then again, we still see lots of quack doctors……. Last of all, cheap ain’t…… Jim Warman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this couldn’t imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Jim, Can I use your words on the next customer who just wants "a cheap fix"? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John, I don’t want to sound like the devils advocate but I have to wonder about your shop. We have nowhere near the useless litigation that those in the states experience (though we appear to be catching up)….. I steadfastly refuse to enter into a modification that will render a safety device inoperative. While hacking the repair might save a few bucks, there is the ever so slight chance that I might be named correspondant in a criminal neglect case. The accountants mistake will get you a slap on the wrist, the shoe salesmans mistake will make your feet hurt…… my mistake can make someone very, very dead. Our automobiles are fun to drive, they offer us freedom our forebears could never even dream of, they are a convenience device that ever so many of us heartless beast waiting for us to unleash the deathly power that they have (a little too dramatic????) – the car is a machine and it really doesn’t care who lives and who dies but we have the "power" to control it…. Sorry if it sounds like I’m venting… your post just set us up for something I wanted to say sooner or later…. Jim Warman

Response:

I think I agree with Jim although when my temperature gauge was acting up several months ago, staying normal then shooting up, I thought it was a malfunctioning thermostate.  Then on a Wednesday when I had to get to the office for a conference call it "needled" about a block from Worthington Ford in Long Beach, CA.  So there I go and got a ride to the office.  So they said it was a clogged cooling system and radiator (replaced it 2 years ago) and needed new radiator, power flushing, hoses, etc. Since it’s a 90 LX 5.0 with only 90,000 miles on it I agreed.  Repair bill less than a year’s payments on a new car.  The "power flush" blew out the heater core and I ended up spending over $3,000.  That of course included a new clutch which I went for since the shop who works on my 67 Dodge R/T quoted $200 more. In summary, I don’t particularly like going to dealers for repairs but Jim isw right about the complexity of today’s machines and a dealer does have a reputation to protect.  So I guess we need to suck it up.  The old days are gone when a mechanis/technitian works for $10 an hour. Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at. Years ago, cars were very simple (comparatively speaking) machines that could be fixed by anyone that was "good with their hands". Over my 35+ years of being involved in the trade, I have watched the car metamorphose into a machine that rivals the complexity of the space shuttle…. being "good with your hands" is still important for mundane repairs (though building and materials technology has us relearn many basics) but we are now faced with multiplexed communications networks. The PC that everyone seeing this post on is an abacus compared to a late model car. Being "good with your hands" just isn’t good enough for most repairs. All I can suggest is for consumers to accept the fact that they will pay diagnostic time….. in our shop we diagnose the concern (this includes time to duplicate the concern…. I can’t fix what ain’t broke) and prepare an estimate. The customer pays diagnostic time…… A written estimate is prepared and offered up to the customer. If I don’t fix the car right the first time, I don’t get paid…… and, in all honesty, I shouldn’t (though it escapes me why the doctor that lets me die is going to get paid for his mistake). When it comes time to drop our car off for servicing, we need to be honest…. leaving stuff out isn’t going to make the bill any cheaper and just may reduce it in some cases. Be available for consultation…… if I have your car apart in the bay and we can’t get in touch with you, you will either pay for me to push the car out or pay for me to reassemble whatever is disassembled just so I can disassemble it again for the repair. Cheap shops aren’t generally good and expensive shops aren’t necessarily good…. talk to your friends and relatives to see where they like to go. Remember that the guy that does ball joints for a decent price isn’t necessarily the guy that can handle electronic woes in a timely, economic fashion. If consumers can educate themselves, the bad guys will eventually be forced out of the system… probably a slow painful process. Then again, we still see lots of quack doctors……. Last of all, cheap ain’t…… Jim Warman Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this couldn’t imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between

… read more »

Response:

Well Put

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

You bet…. I volunteer on our local fire department…. most of our calls are MVAs these days. Most of those are single vehicle accidents and I just can’t help but think that false economy helped some of them along. Any techs reading this…. just remember, we didn’t design them…. we didn’t build them……. most important – we didn’t break them. Unfortunately, come time for a customer to be upset, we are a little too handy 8^) An aside…. thankfully this wasn’t my Saturday to work…. another tech finished off a job I started Friday (normally doesn’t happen, but in this case….). Taurus with a pooched head and what looks like bits of piston welded to one spark plug…… Customer insists on having a new set of Motorcrafts installed and he’ll drive it home. I sure hope he doesn’t live too far away….. But we all know who will be blamed for the "no fix".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim, Can I use your words on the next customer who just wants "a cheap fix"?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You bet…. I volunteer on our local fire department…. most of our calls are MVAs these days. Most of those are single vehicle accidents and I just can’t help but think that false economy helped some of them along. Any techs reading this…. just remember, we didn’t design them…. we didn’t build them……. most important – we didn’t break them. Unfortunately, come time for a customer to be upset, we are a little too handy 8^) An aside…. thankfully this wasn’t my Saturday to work…. another tech finished off a job I started Friday (normally doesn’t happen, but in this case….). Taurus with a pooched head and what looks like bits of piston welded to one spark plug…… Customer insists on having a new set of Motorcrafts installed and he’ll drive it home. I sure hope he doesn’t live too far away….. But we all know who will be blamed for the "no fix".

 Very interesting thread. Being a dreaded Service Writer, I expected a huge flame war against dealers. I was pleasantly surprised.   And Jim is very, very correct in his statements. A refurbished SBDS diagnostic machine is 15G’s. REFURB. But it’s almost obsolete. Now you gotta have the WDS.. bye bye 10 grand.. someone has to pay for this equipment. Guess who that is? The customer. This is why the labor rate is what it is. And for you folks paying $75/hr for labor, you’re getting a deal. From the latest reports I have heard, the average labor rate in the San Francisco area is $125/hr. Cars are unbelievably complex now. You know that big thing called the internet? It’s a big computer network that spans the globe. Guess what? There’s a network in your new car too. Yup. It’s called CAN, and it’s an actual network in your car. No longer is it needed to have 3 different speed sensors for 3 different control modules in your vehicle. 1 sensor can be used, and the data shared over the CAN with all the modules. Wanna know something else that’s coming? 42V electrical systems. Yes.. the current requirements for all of the systems on a car, plus the stuff they want to put on them, is almost to the point of overloading the current 12V system. The traditional starter? GONE.. The traditional alternator? GONE. Replaced by electromagnetic coils in the flywheel assy. Power steering pump? Electric.. Water pump? Electric. The revolution in automotive technology has just begun. Just wait..   The dealer has to be able to fix *anything*  If you take your car to 10 different shops and they can’t fix it, where do you end up? The dealer. Sorry, but it costs a lot of money for training, equipment, overhead, etc to be able to repair vehicles at the dealer level. I had a customer spend over $800 dollars at independent shops on O2 sensor, MAF sensor, crank angle sensor, etc, etc, on his 2001 Taurus that he NEVER NEEDED!. That’s right, the independents lacked the technical skill and knowledge to correctly diagnose the problem. Just because there is a DTC for an EGR system problem does not make a bad EGR valve. Wanna know something? The *real* fix cost him $175.00. Wanna know what it was? A bad connector at the Mass Air Flow sensor. Yup. $975 to get his car fixed, when it could have only cost him a connector and pins. He learned his lesson.   What you really pay for is knowledge. Time is just a convenient way to attach a certain dollar amount to the amount of skill and knowledge it will take to repair something. If you want to pay $25/hour for labor, then you’ll get what you pay for.  Sorry for the ramble.. Michael

Response:

Jim, where are you?  I’m just curious with the Telus e-mail….  if you’re close to me, I’ll come by and see you next time my 5.0 (or Bronco) decides to give me grief…. (as you’ve already helped me in here before…)  :) Brad S

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at. Years ago, cars were very simple (comparatively speaking) machines that could be fixed by anyone that was "good with their hands". Over my 35+ years of being involved in the trade, I have watched the car metamorphose into a machine that rivals the complexity of the space shuttle…. being "good with your hands" is still important for mundane repairs (though building and materials technology has us relearn many basics) but we are now faced with multiplexed communications networks. The PC that everyone seeing this post on is an abacus compared to a late model car. Being "good with your hands" just isn’t good enough for most repairs. All I can suggest is for consumers to accept the fact that they will pay diagnostic time….. in our shop we diagnose the concern (this includes time to duplicate the concern…. I can’t fix what ain’t broke) and prepare an estimate. The customer pays diagnostic time…… A written estimate is prepared and offered up to the customer. If I don’t fix the car right the first time, I don’t get paid…… and, in all honesty, I shouldn’t (though it escapes me why the doctor that lets me die is going to get paid for his mistake). When it comes time to drop our car off for servicing, we need to be honest…. leaving stuff out isn’t going to make the bill any cheaper and just may reduce it in some cases. Be available for consultation…… if I have your car apart in the bay and we can’t get in touch with you, you will either pay for me to push the car out or pay for me to reassemble whatever is disassembled just so I can disassemble it again for the repair. Cheap shops aren’t generally good and expensive shops aren’t necessarily good…. talk to your friends and relatives to see where they like to go. Remember that the guy that does ball joints for a decent price isn’t necessarily the guy that can handle electronic woes in a timely, economic fashion. If consumers can educate themselves, the bad guys will eventually be forced out of the system… probably a slow painful process. Then again, we still see lots of quack doctors……. Last of all, cheap ain’t…… Jim Warman Jim –   I can’t believe you stand to type this out week after week.  I bet I could google up 15 threads of you explaining the facts of life to some poor schmo.   Keep up the good work. Scott I like Joe….. Actually, Mike, any one of us only need to look as far as our own chosen professions….. we do stuff, we get paid…. our paychecks come from "somewhere". If we work in a "service" environment, we get paid for service and all that it entails….. thinking, travelling, looking, reading – giving service…. In a product environment – some way, somehow, you will pay for the employees time… "yep, we can special order that… just leave us a NONREFUNDABLE deposit…… oh, and I don’t have to know what I’m selling…. I just have to sell it…". Nothing strange here other than the automoblie seems to evoke more emotion than any other possession. People will dwell in a hovel in order to possess the car of their dreams….. kick their dog, be too familiar with their lady…. no sweat…… the car…. THE CAR!!!!! Them’s fightin’ words Years ago, diagnosing automotive problems was pretty close to "no-brainer". We had electrical systems rather than electronic systems….. everything else was good old mechanical "cause and effect". Folks are just going to have to get used to the idea of paying diag time (much like a doctor…. he’s not going to spend hours figuring out what’s wrong simply to charge you a buck eighty-five for a pill). Modern vehicles are complex beyond our wildest imagination…… to fix these marvelously complex assemblies requires adequate equipment (which costs money), training (which the transmission shop didn’t spend money on) and a logical approach to diagnosis (which not everyone possesses and no amount of money can buy). I have to be objective….. my customers depend on it, my reputation depends on it and my employer depends on it. Not wanting to sound like I am blowing my own horn…… in any chosen field, those that excel are rewarded for their talents. I study at night, I agonize over my mistakes and I constantly learn……. there are thousands of techs like me and there are millions of wage earners like me. We don’t come cheap but we strive to do "it" right the first time. But all of this couldn’t imagine the repair….. couldn’t do the repair. And you’re gonna dis the guys that will….. I am truly at a loss for words…. Jim Warman don’t suppose your being a mechanic would stop you from being objective, do ya jim? Well, let’s see…… "someone" diagnosed the problem……. his/her family has probably gotten used to living in something with a roof, shoes and food…. mundane crap like that…… "someone" apparently had to be attached to the computer that diagnosed the problem and, quite unfortunately, had to be able to decipher the mounds of data that the "miracle diagnostic computer" presents – aside from the fact that "someone" had to decide what data was pertinent and what data wasn’t. Of course, when you are at work, it is quite acceptable for you to be paid for thinking about stuff instead of doing stuff but not acceptable for someone else. They made you pay for a special order part….. this might get complicated. The dealer is allowed very few returns to the warehouse….. some depends on the classification of the part, some depends on the dealers stock turnover, some stuff isn’t returnable period. Say you had them order the part and had your buddy find one at the wreckers…. no biggie for you, but just another straw on the dealers camels back. Let’s not forget that the transmission shop wouldn’t even touch your problem…… Sorry, Mike… there’s no free lunch. Most of my days are spent on three hours of diag time for a 45 minute repair….. we are not going to escape this rude fact of life because the modern auto is just too complicated. If the dealer has made you unhappy, go back to the transmission shop….. Jim Warman hey, in brief: 2000 taurus – step on brake, start car, push silver button on shift, go from park to drive and drive away. but, cannot push in silver button as usual. have to force it in HARD to get out of park and then it works normally and you can glide through gears. bring it to tranny joint. they say take it to the dealer. electrical problem, only ford can fix. dealer "diagnoses" problem. connector switch between brake pedl and shift is "broken." i know a computer diagnosed this. charge is $82 and change. they order the part (will be in by tuesday) $24 ffor the part. i pay almost $130 for the part and will pay $75 in labor for instillation. let’s see they told me what was wrong, didn’t fix anything and charged me for a part they didn’t even have (to make sure i come back to get it fixed there i was told) and they will hit me for $75 more to put the switch in. damn! mike

Response:

Thanks, Scott…. I think it’s a defensive reaction 8^). Especially in the states, with the automotive trades being unregulated, there’s no doubt that we see both charlatans and those ill trained (or ill equipped intelligence-wise) that cost consumers a lot of needless expense and besmirch those techs that are truly capable (how many qualified youngsters will be drawn to this trade when we see and hear how unscrupulous and subhuman techs are). It’s a complicated issue with a lot of sides to look at.

Absolutely.  I’m still trying to untangle why a 15k mile "tune-up" that consists of an oil change and "inspecting" all the rubber under the hood costs $USD 100.  I frankly think that automakers have done very well at making cars very low maintenance but the service industry is doing as much as possible to make drivers think that cars need constant attention because the cars basically don’t require anything but warranty repair otherwise.  Service techs don’t make shit on warranty service. I know, I know.  It’s easier to get warranty service when you’ve been shelling out the $$$ to the dealer for "tune-ups" on cars that require nothing more than an oil change – according to the warranty schedule. I’m still tickled pink that I bought a brand new car from one of the Ford companies, and no one took the time to run the TSBs as they delivered the car to me and say "there are a few warranty issues we should correct right away".  No, it took a few months for me to notice a problem and find the TSB myself… then I had to take the car to the dealer twice to get it fixed (once to verify the problem they could have verified before delivery, another time to replace the parts after ordering them).  The problem?  Poorly designed fuel-filler results in early shut-off.  It’s not like a minor problem that most people would overlook. Let’s not overlook the Ford Windstar I had that developed a terrible brake shimmy after 12000 miles. I pulled the rotors and replaced them with aftermarket rotors which lasted more than 90k miles with one resurfacing, after the dealer tried to sell me a $300 brake job.  Gosh, when I looked, I found a TSB that explained that Ford had installed *the wrong rotors* at the factory.  You think the dealer volunteered this?  Nope.  They offered a $300 brake job *I didn’t need*.  I spent $100 and an hour of my time to fix it myself.  I know, I know, I could have killed my family saving that $200… err, $300… but I didn’t.  That car stopped well right up until we sold it. The two-week old Geo Prism we had in 1993… a brand new car.  The ECU died and the dealer spent 5 days working on the car and then told me it would take two weeks to fix and cost $500.  So I called the 1-800-ASK-GM-FOR-HELP number, and the customer service rep found an ECU and FedExed it to the dealer. Funny, the car was fixed two days later at $0 cost to me.  Suppose I’d trusted the "experts" at the dealer… Jim, I totally respect the skill and training that automotive service techs have.  But it’s getting harder to defend service techs when they’re making the mortgage on superfluous service.  Cars are more complicated than ever, but they’re also more reliable than ever.  The next time someone tries to sell me a $100 "fuel injector cleaning" on the basis of nothing more than "injectors can get clogged, you don’t want that", I’m likely to say "let’s pull those injectors out and test them, and if even one of them is clogged or sprays funny, I’ll pay you $200 to clean them, otherwise you pay me $100 for trying to sell me a needless service".  Wonder how many takers I’d have (I think the answer is *zero*, which is odd when *they* started out saying I needed the service). Cars break and we need experts to fix them.  But the "experts" have done much to erode trust when ordinary service that consists of nothing more than an oil change and probing/flashlighting all the rubber is over $USD 200 depending on the mile interval. Don’t get me wrong.  I really do appreciate expert debugging and repair.  I just have come to believe that the situation is artificially complicated in ways designed to exploit the consumer and it’s breaking down the cycle of trust.  When a service tech tells me something today, I have a lot of reason to question the validity.  So please don’t blame or get self-righteous with someone that can’t believe a broken switch costs $130.  They’ve got reason to ask and it’s nothing personal. Dana

Response:

You bet…. I volunteer on our local fire department…. most of our calls are MVAs these days. Most of those are single vehicle accidents and I just can’t help but think that false economy helped some of them along.

Whoa.  I’ve seen a lot of accidents in my driving days, and most of them were clearly the result of driver error.  Perhaps things are different in your part of North America, but down here in California, people drive too fast and follow too closely and that’s what causes accidents, as verified by my highway patrol friends I ask. Dana

Response:

 Very interesting thread. Being a dreaded Service Writer, I expected a huge flame war against dealers. I was pleasantly surprised.

Well, I hope I haven’t ruined your day…   And Jim is very, very correct in his statements. A refurbished SBDS diagnostic machine is 15G’s. REFURB. But it’s almost obsolete. Now you gotta have the WDS.. bye bye 10 grand.. someone has to pay for this equipment. Guess who that is? The customer. This is why the labor rate is what it is. And for you folks paying $75/hr for labor, you’re getting a deal. From the latest reports I have heard, the average labor rate in the San Francisco area is $125/hr.

$100 in Napa, California. Cars are unbelievably complex now.

They’re also unbelievable reliable now.  That’s the problem for dealers. Cars just don’t need a lot of fixing.  If it wasn’t for that darn check-engine light, you’d never see a running car The traditional starter? GONE..

In which cars in the 2004 model year? The traditional alternator? GONE. Replaced by electromagnetic coils in the flywheel assy.

In a hybrid car, sure.  Otherwise, which 2004 models lack an alternator? Power steering pump? Electric..

Which models?  Since the only source of power in a car is the mechanical engine, pumps are still best driven by a belt.  Perhaps you’re referring to hybrids again? Water pump? Electric.

In which currently-shipping models? The revolution in automotive technology has just begun. Just wait..

Sure.  Cars that require oil changes every 5k miles or so and new plugs at 60k miles… that’s been pretty revolutionary. Are you saying that the manufacturers have been making cars less reliable?   The dealer has to be able to fix *anything*  If you take your car to 10 different shops and they can’t fix it, where do you end up? The dealer. Sorry, but it costs a lot of money for training, equipment, overhead, etc to be able to repair vehicles at the dealer level. I had a customer spend over $800 dollars at independent shops on O2 sensor, MAF sensor, crank angle sensor, etc, etc, on his 2001 Taurus that he NEVER NEEDED!.

I’m sure this is true, but don’t overlook that your fellow dealer service writers have tried more than once to sell me repairs I didn’t need. [...]   What you really pay for is knowledge. Time is just a convenient way to attach a certain dollar amount to the amount of skill and knowledge it will take to repair something. If you want to pay $25/hour for labor, then you’ll get what you pay for.

I don’t disagree.  I love it when people I know want me to come fix their computers, and then volunteer "I’ll pay you".  Every single time, I tell them, "You can’t afford me".  I fix the computers for the people that I care about and I refer the others to a reputable repair shop. Dana

Response:

  Gosh, when I looked, I found a TSB that explained that Ford had installed *the wrong rotors* at the factory.  You think the dealer volunteered this?  Nope.  They offered a $300 brake job *I didn’t need*.

Let me clarify – I didn’t need a $300 brake job. I needed the rotors replaced under warranty for $0. Dana

Response:

Question:

Ray,  You and I must have had the exact sort of experiences.  I can’t say everyone is like the women I’ve known maybe I’ve made bad stupid ignorant etc. decisions but I have experienced the same things.  To answer Ron’s comment, I personally do not date for any sort of long term committed relationship.  That would be nice but I must be more realistic now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, the headlines are full of this.  Lovely sequence of events: 1.  The woman snubs a decent man, marries an abusive jerk, and brags about how smart she is. 2.  Ten years and a few kids later (not necessarily in this case), she flees an "abusive situation" without remembering who CREATED that situation. 3.  Once free, she hooks up with a nice guy and finds "happiness." Her intentions were good here, but obviously that didn’t matter much. Killed for being happy Daily Telegraph 23feb02 JEFFREY Rose was a possessive man who couldn’t stand to see his estranged wife happy. So in a fit of jealous rage, the brown belt karate expert used a martial arts move on her neck which stopped her heart. Yesterday, Rose was sentenced in the NSW Supreme Court to 14 years in jail, with a non-parole period of 10 years, for the murder of Kristine Rose in April, 1982. Justice David Kirby said Rose, 57, was "someone who sought to exert control over his wife" and that when he abused alcohol "he could be verbally abusive". He said on the night of the murder Mrs Rose and her husband had met for dinner before she was to go to Brisbane to visit new boyfriend Peter Adamedes. Justice Kirby said Rose was still in love with his wife at this time and "hoped that they would sort their differences and reunite". "Precisely how the deceased met her death cannot be known with certainty," he said. "One infers that something occurred during the course of their meeting which excited Mr Rose’s anger." Justice Kirby said he didn’t believe Rose had "lured her into a trap" to kill her on that night. "Rather, I think it is likely that her evident happiness at the prospect of rejoining Peter was more than he could bear," he said. Mrs Rose, a gregarious and attractive 31-year-old accounting student and mother of three, was found in a remote creek-bed three weeks later. Rose had used her car to dump the body. The only injury found on her body in an autopsy was a small bruise on her neck, near the carotid artery. The case was reopened in 1995 after the couple’s son Scott Rose, who was four at the time of his mother’s death, told police he had seen the murder. The Crown decided not to use Scott’s evidence because of his age at the time and advice from forensic psychiatrists that so-called "recovered memories" were dangerously unreliable. Instead, it opted to rely on a circumstantial case based on evidence which linked dust found on the wheels of Mrs Rose’s car and the site where her body was found. The victim’s sister, Ruth McPherson, said she was happy with the sentence, although she had hoped for a longer term. Scott Rose was unavailable for comment. In an interview with The Daily Telegraph in November last year, Scott, who is now 23, said on the night of the murder he remembered sneaking down the stairs of his father’s unit. "I saw her, she was lying on the ground down in the laundry, which was down the stairs out the back, and she was just lying there shaking and she was all blue," he said. "I was shocked. My dad saw me and he grabbed me, got me inside real quick and flogged me. He’d told us not to go outside. "I thought I would have been over it by now … " – The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. Socrates (B.C.469-399)

Response:

wife for being "happy") Newsgroups: alt.support.divorce Ray writes: Oh, the headlines are full of this.  Lovely sequence of events: 1.  The woman snubs a decent man, marries an abusive jerk, and brags about how smart she is.

Sure, a lot of this kind of stuff happens, but, how is avoiding divorced women going to help? If men my age are going to date at all,they are most likely going to date divorced women. There just aren’t that many widows and never marrieds around. I am reminded of a Detroit radio talk show, Tom Laikus (sp?) I think it was, who was putting down single mothers. I say, wait until he’s in his mid forties, he will look at them a lot differently. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Oh, the headlines are full of this.  Lovely sequence of events: 1.  The woman snubs a decent man, marries an abusive jerk, and brags about how smart she is. 2.  Ten years and a few kids later (not necessarily in this case), she flees an "abusive situation" without remembering who CREATED that situation. 3.  Once free, she hooks up with a nice guy and finds "happiness." Her intentions were good here, but obviously that didn’t matter much. Killed for being happy Daily Telegraph 23feb02 JEFFREY Rose was a possessive man who couldn’t stand to see his estranged wife happy. So in a fit of jealous rage, the brown belt karate expert used a martial arts move on her neck which stopped her heart. Yesterday, Rose was sentenced in the NSW Supreme Court to 14 years in jail, with a non-parole period of 10 years, for the murder of Kristine Rose in April, 1982. Justice David Kirby said Rose, 57, was "someone who sought to exert control over his wife" and that when he abused alcohol "he could be verbally abusive". He said on the night of the murder Mrs Rose and her husband had met for dinner before she was to go to Brisbane to visit new boyfriend Peter Adamedes. Justice Kirby said Rose was still in love with his wife at this time and "hoped that they would sort their differences and reunite". "Precisely how the deceased met her death cannot be known with certainty," he said. "One infers that something occurred during the course of their meeting which excited Mr Rose’s anger." Justice Kirby said he didn’t believe Rose had "lured her into a trap" to kill her on that night. "Rather, I think it is likely that her evident happiness at the prospect of rejoining Peter was more than he could bear," he said. Mrs Rose, a gregarious and attractive 31-year-old accounting student and mother of three, was found in a remote creek-bed three weeks later. Rose had used her car to dump the body. The only injury found on her body in an autopsy was a small bruise on her neck, near the carotid artery. The case was reopened in 1995 after the couple’s son Scott Rose, who was four at the time of his mother’s death, told police he had seen the murder. The Crown decided not to use Scott’s evidence because of his age at the time and advice from forensic psychiatrists that so-called "recovered memories" were dangerously unreliable. Instead, it opted to rely on a circumstantial case based on evidence which linked dust found on the wheels of Mrs Rose’s car and the site where her body was found. The victim’s sister, Ruth McPherson, said she was happy with the sentence, although she had hoped for a longer term. Scott Rose was unavailable for comment. In an interview with The Daily Telegraph in November last year, Scott, who is now 23, said on the night of the murder he remembered sneaking down the stairs of his father’s unit. "I saw her, she was lying on the ground down in the laundry, which was down the stairs out the back, and she was just lying there shaking and she was all blue," he said. "I was shocked. My dad saw me and he grabbed me, got me inside real quick and flogged me. He’d told us not to go outside. "I thought I would have been over it by now … " – The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. Socrates (B.C.469-399)

Response:

Oh, the headlines are full of this.  Lovely sequence of events: 1.  The woman snubs a decent man, marries an abusive jerk, and brags about how smart she is. 2.  Ten years and a few kids later (not necessarily in this case), she flees an "abusive situation" without remembering who CREATED that situation. 3.  Once free, she hooks up with a nice guy and finds "happiness." Her intentions were good here, but obviously that didn’t matter much.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Killed for being happy Daily Telegraph 23feb02 JEFFREY Rose was a possessive man who couldn’t stand to see his estranged wife happy. So in a fit of jealous rage, the brown belt karate expert used a martial arts move on her neck which stopped her heart. Yesterday, Rose was sentenced in the NSW Supreme Court to 14 years in jail, with a non-parole period of 10 years, for the murder of Kristine Rose in April, 1982. Justice David Kirby said Rose, 57, was "someone who sought to exert control over his wife" and that when he abused alcohol "he could be verbally abusive". He said on the night of the murder Mrs Rose and her husband had met for dinner before she was to go to Brisbane to visit new boyfriend Peter Adamedes. Justice Kirby said Rose was still in love with his wife at this time and "hoped that they would sort their differences and reunite". "Precisely how the deceased met her death cannot be known with certainty," he said. "One infers that something occurred during the course of their meeting which excited Mr Rose’s anger." Justice Kirby said he didn’t believe Rose had "lured her into a trap" to kill her on that night. "Rather, I think it is likely that her evident happiness at the prospect of rejoining Peter was more than he could bear," he said. Mrs Rose, a gregarious and attractive 31-year-old accounting student and mother of three, was found in a remote creek-bed three weeks later. Rose had used her car to dump the body. The only injury found on her body in an autopsy was a small bruise on her neck, near the carotid artery. The case was reopened in 1995 after the couple’s son Scott Rose, who was four at the time of his mother’s death, told police he had seen the murder. The Crown decided not to use Scott’s evidence because of his age at the time and advice from forensic psychiatrists that so-called "recovered memories" were dangerously unreliable. Instead, it opted to rely on a circumstantial case based on evidence which linked dust found on the wheels of Mrs Rose’s car and the site where her body was found. The victim’s sister, Ruth McPherson, said she was happy with the sentence, although she had hoped for a longer term. Scott Rose was unavailable for comment. In an interview with The Daily Telegraph in November last year, Scott, who is now 23, said on the night of the murder he remembered sneaking down the stairs of his father’s unit. "I saw her, she was lying on the ground down in the laundry, which was down the stairs out the back, and she was just lying there shaking and she was all blue," he said. "I was shocked. My dad saw me and he grabbed me, got me inside real quick and flogged me. He’d told us not to go outside. "I thought I would have been over it by now … " – The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. Socrates (B.C.469-399)

Response:

Question:

Can someone please give a non-accountant a thumbnail sketch of these changes please?

Response:

Can someone please give a non-accountant a thumbnail sketch of these changes please?

1. goodwill = fair value ./. acquisition cost at date of acquisition 2. goodwill = intangible non-current asset, like licenses 3. prior treatment: goodwill amortised in maximum 40 years 4. current treatment: goodwill amortisation prohibited 5. BUT 3 & 4 subject to impairment recognition 6. pooling of interests (commonly called "merger") no longer permitted FASB’s political trade-off: 4 against 6. Does this help? A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption with GnuPG. Key fingerprint = F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": SDI North Korea Semtex strategic World Trade Center kibo Honduras FBI

Response:

Great thumbnail! Don’t understand "impairment recognition" though. Assume I bought a machine shop for a million with 10% considered "goodwill". I write off nothing until the ratio of goodwill current value / cost drops or increases then THAT becomes subject to "impairment recognition"? (Just a wild guess.) How’s the "I recognition" get written down when it looses value… dollar for dollar?

Response:

Great thumbnail! Don’t understand "impairment recognition" though. Assume I bought a machine shop for a million with 10% considered "goodwill". I write off nothing until the ratio of goodwill current value / cost drops or increases then THAT becomes subject to "impairment recognition"? (Just a wild guess.) How’s the "I recognition" get written down when it looses value… dollar for dollar?

See e.g. SFAS 121. Impairment is supposed to mean what the word says: the asset permanently no longer earns enough cash to justify its book value. e. g. A acquires B with a goodwill of X. The acquisition is a flop (about 75 % of the cases according to valid, long-term statistical evidence, but acquisions remain quite popular!). A must recognise an impairment loss of X + whatever amount is required to valuate B correctly, usually corresponding to B’s ability to generate future positive cash flows. Please look at previous threads here. Yours truly expressed the view that the new FASB goodwill rule encourages and facilitates creative accounting. IAS require amortisation of goodwill within 20 years maximum, again subject to impairment recognition. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption with GnuPG. Key fingerprint = F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": counter-intelligence cracking spy cryptographic FBI Waco, Texas Qaddafi

Response:

Question:

Thanks again folks, I will try to keep to the middle of my points range. I really feel like I need to get my focus back. When i feel like things arent happening fast enough, I have a habit of sabotaging things further by getting frustrated and giving up. Im fighting that feeling today. Today, I got on the scale and it was a 1/2 lb up. I guess i need to go and read the first couple of weeks of my journal and repeat those weeks (i did really well then) – in terms of what I eat so that I can get back to the right number of points to help me lose. Thanks for all your comments and help.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

Response:

That’s a very good idea about using your old journals. I must keep that in mind. Elaine K – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks again folks, I will try to keep to the middle of my points range. I really feel like I need to get my focus back. When i feel like things arent happening fast enough, I have a habit of sabotaging things further by getting frustrated and giving up. Im fighting that feeling today. Today, I got on the scale and it was a 1/2 lb up. I guess i need to go and read the first couple of weeks of my journal and repeat those weeks (i did really well then) – in terms of what I eat so that I can get back to the right number of points to help me lose. Thanks for all your comments and help. Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

Response:

I do that too krys, and I like it.  It really gives you freedom.  I can exist on a 12 point day if I have to …. and sometimes I *DO* have to after having a 35 point day!! lol!  As long as my total for the week is on target, I let myself veer too and fro within that, and I am quite sure it does not hinder my loss.  Well, weigh-in tomorrow (what did someone call it? WD or WID? or just WI?) hmm anyway, then I will find what the verdict is. It is such FUN getting weighed there! I get quite worked up about it! lol! brenda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there, I find it helps if I vary how many points I eat – I have more and less days. My version of the "Wendy" plan, which I’m sure someone will be along to explain to you.

Response:

Oops, didn’t see Roxan’s post saying the same thing as what I just posted.  Sorry, I hate it when that happens to me! So there you go – two people agree that eating less will not do you any good! LOL  Eat your points, girl. -Petal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you eating all your points? If not start, some times you will not lose until you are eating at the level you need for your current weight. Roxan

Response:

Hi there, I find it helps if I vary how many points I eat – I have more and less days. My version of the "Wendy" plan, which I’m sure someone will be along to explain to you.  Try drinking more water.  Or varying the balance of what you eat – more protein, less carbs – that kinds of thing.  And be patient…..good things come to those who wait – and a plateau is better than a gain — krys UK 157/121.5/126 Started March 1st 2001 GOAL August 16th 2001 http://community.webshots.com/user/krystrot

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

Response:

Please don’t try eating less points on a regular basis – that WON’T help you lose weight.  You have a range for a reason – if you stick within your range, you’ll be fine.  If you say that you’re "barely making the limit", that’s not overdoing it. The less you eat, the more your body’s metabolism slows down.  It’s completely counterproductive and will not break a stall (although I still maintain that one week isn’t a stall and you should just give it some time). If you really want to play around with your points range, try eating at the upper end one day, lower end the next, etc.  Some people find that varying their points like this helps kick start their metabolism again. Don’t try to look for a quick fix – you need a bit of patience if you want to keep the weight off in the long term.  As I mentioned before, the weight will come off at various rates and sometimes not at all.  Don’t panic; it’s normal. -Petal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks so much for all your advice. I think Im going to focus more carefully on the portion sizes and anything that I’ve slipped with lately. It’s really difficult for me to get more than 2 qts of water down per day…but if you all say it works for you…I’ll try to drink a little bit more. I end up drinking most of my water at home in the evenings because of my work environment…it’ll be some sleepless nights if I try to drink a bunch more. <laughing. Im also going to try to eat lower on the points range. I’ve been eating on the high end (barely making the limit every day), so if I try to eat at the lower end, perhaps it will make a difference. Thanks again for being here!

Response:

Thanks so much for all your advice. I think Im going to focus more carefully on the portion sizes and anything that I’ve slipped with lately. It’s really difficult for me to get more than 2 qts of water down per day…but if you all say it works for you…I’ll try to drink a little bit more. I end up drinking most of my water at home in the evenings because of my work environment…it’ll be some sleepless nights if I try to drink a bunch more. <laughing. Im also going to try to eat lower on the points range. I’ve been eating on the high end (barely making the limit every day), so if I try to eat at the lower end, perhaps it will make a difference. Thanks again for being here!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

Response:

I can’t say much except that this is the first week I have lost in one month.  It was really beginning to stress me out – so I began measuring portions carefully, walking more, drinking more water and also relaxing!  It will come off and worrying about it just makes it worse.  Be proud you lost what you did and know that it takes willpower and determination to even make it that far which a lot more than a lot of people can/will do. — Robin Portland, OR 167/154/135

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

Response:

Are you eating all your points? If not start, some times you will not lose until you are eating at the level you need for your current weight. Roxan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

Response:

Welcome to the group ))  If you click on the link below you’ll access ASDWW’s helpful tips and FAQs — Val – take one away to email http://www.geocities.com/welcomenotice/index.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

Response:

If possible go to WW meetings.  It could make the difference.  If you can go to kick boxing class you could just as easy go to a meeting.  It sounds like you need to be accountable.  Nothing wrong with that. That is what helped me to lose so much weight last year.  I need to go to weigh in and hear the good tips the other members and leaders had to offer.  Try it!!!  That might just do it for you.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

Response:

Yep, patience.  Your weight loss will vary because of a million different reasons, and two nights of kick boxing isn’t necessarily going to start having an effect on your weight just yet. You didn’t mention how much you have to lose, and that does make a difference to how you lose weight.  You’ve lost 14 lbs. already and only in the past couple of months, which is fab!  How much more to you want to lose? If it’s in the 10-15 lb. range, it may come off slower than the first lot. <broken record mode Use other means to measure yourself apart from a scale, particularly if you’ve just started exercising.  You could be losing inches without losing any pounds – and that’s still a good thing!  Take your measurements and have your gym measure your body fat.  Get your body fat remeasured in a couple of months, and you’ll get a much more accurate idea of how you’re getting into shape. If you’re sticking to your points and exercising, you’re doing everything RIGHT.  You can try adding more water and more exercise, but the fact is, the weight won’t always come off at a steady pace.  Try journaling to make sure that you’re accounting for everything you eat, just to make sure. Otherwise, just keep at it and you will succeed! </broken record mode Welcome to the group. -Petal — It’s my weight loss page! http://petalww.tripod.com/ UK (WW At Home) 187 – January/99 163 – started WW June/01 148 – this week 140ish – goal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

Response:

Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

are you drinking enough water? well then drink MORE than enough. I swear drinking WATER is the best thing for me in so many ways. <stopped to take a few gulps sorry also are you sure your portions haven’t snuck up a smidge… whenever you get stuck losing weight and are on plan… check your sizes/portions… I know that right now I splurge and underestimate my coffee creamer and maybe some sizes but with the amount of weight I have to lose, I am not too worried about it until the weight loss stops.  Then I can reevaluate. I am not saying to weigh and measure EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME but if you are having problems then maybe every few weeks it would be a good idea to check out the optical illusion we refer to as a CUP of pasta (not as much as I would like to be honest) bright blessings Nessa 261/261/235 (10%) — and if you wish for things that are only in the past just remember that the wrong things aren’t supposed to last it’s over and done, the rest is gonna come when you let it Mary-Chapin Carpenter  ’this is love’

Response:

Hello, Im new to the group. I joined WW online in September. Initially it seemed to be going fine. I lost about 14 lbs. Then, it seemed I gained a couple, and over the last couple of weeks it seems I can’t shake it and continue to lose. Last week, I added a 2 night per week cardio kick boxing class (which for me is like a masochistic nightmare! <chuckling considering how out of shape I am), Im doing my best to keep up without injury to self. I was hoping that after 2 classes, and staying on program I would at least see a 1 lb shift. NOTHING! Anyone got any hints to kick start the drop again? Thanks for being here.

Response:

Question:

I would love to marry an accountant.

Response:

I would love to marry an accountant.

How’s that? You’d like surprise counts of the houskeeping money, keeping the accounts and preparing them for audit, preparing the annual budget, reconciling bank accounts, obtaining balance confirmations from household suppliers, making countless cups of coffee for audit staff, being adequately acquainted with GAAP as regards household accounts, conducting the annual inventory, preparing your husband’s tax declarations, querying you husband’s bills for entertaining ‘Fifi’ at exotic nightspots, etc? — Roger Standing AROC Financial Performance Measurement http://mypage.bluewindow.ch/aroc

Response:

I would love to marry an accountant.

Speak of disclosure! — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Perfesser’s nauseating puns:  ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/ts/tspun22.zip

Response:

Well if you are young and anticipate an inheritance,  just keep in mind that accountants never die they merely fail to balance.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would love to marry an accountant.

Response:

Yes, and where’s the independence? Franklynn Peterson, Editor CPA Computer Report newsletter http://www.cpacomputerreport.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well if you are young and anticipate an inheritance,  just keep in mind that accountants never die they merely fail to balance. I would love to marry an accountant.

Response:

Question:

Thanks Jeff,  I have filled out for the FASFA; I don’t qualify anymore;

Why not?! I’m going to try to get a loan thru one of our local banks, but I don’t know how thats going to work out, considering our credit history is not so good due too the amount of debt we are in.  Thanks for your reply!

Sorry, but I don’t understand why you don’t qualify.  Care to explain? Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wrote Yes, I am a mother, wife and I go to school full time.  At the moment I am going through financial difficulty.  Can’t find a job in the area.  I quess it was stupid of me to post the message, but classes start soon and I don’t have the means to pay for the classes.  Anyway thanks for making me feel worst than I already do.  I do get a kick out of your replies. Honestly, I really do understand you’re position.  My wife and I are both full time students, and we don’t work.  Why not?  We both need the highest GPA available.  My goal is med school, her’s is a good law school.  So, how do we get by?  In a word: loans.  Loans, loans, and more loans.  But its worth it.  Lets face it: if you are getting a good major (and PLEASE don’t tell me you’re an English/Art/other non-paying subject major) you should have no problem paying it all back later. I’ll say that having a kid at this time was NOT the brightest thing. But seriously, why not look at what loans are available to you?  If you guys don’t work it should be tons.  It also gets more the longer you study (sophomores get more than freshman, etc.)  Good luck.  Have you filled out an FASFA? BTW, for your medical concerns, you should check with your state office. Believe it or not, many of the facilities available for poor families should be available for you while you’re in school.  That includes Medicaid and other public health insurance.  This will be especially vital for your kid (who should be eligible for medicaid, or MA). Jeff While they’re at it send ME money too!  Both my wife and I are in college and could use more money.  Still, I’ve never thought of going on Usenet and asking strangers to send me cash… Ever tried working the way most of us do?

Response:

Thanks Jeff,  I have filled out for the FASFA; I don’t qualify anymore; I’m going to try to get a loan thru one of our local banks, but I don’t know how thats going to work out, considering our credit history is not so good due too the amount of debt we are in.  Thanks for your reply! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I am a mother, wife and I go to school full time.  At the moment I am going through financial difficulty.  Can’t find a job in the area.  I quess it was stupid of me to post the message, but classes start soon and I don’t have the means to pay for the classes.  Anyway thanks for making me feel worst than I already do.  I do get a kick out of your replies. Honestly, I really do understand you’re position.  My wife and I are both full time students, and we don’t work.  Why not?  We both need the highest GPA available.  My goal is med school, her’s is a good law school.  So, how do we get by?  In a word: loans.  Loans, loans, and more loans.  But its worth it.  Lets face it: if you are getting a good major (and PLEASE don’t tell me you’re an English/Art/other non-paying subject major) you should have no problem paying it all back later. I’ll say that having a kid at this time was NOT the brightest thing.  But seriously, why not look at what loans are available to you?  If you guys don’t work it should be tons.  It also gets more the longer you study (sophomores get more than freshman, etc.)  Good luck.  Have you filled out an FASFA? BTW, for your medical concerns, you should check with your state office. Believe it or not, many of the facilities available for poor families should be available for you while you’re in school.  That includes Medicaid and other public health insurance.  This will be especially vital for your kid (who should be eligible for medicaid, or MA). Jeff While they’re at it send ME money too!  Both my wife and I are in college and could use more money.  Still, I’ve never thought of going on Usenet and asking strangers to send me cash… Ever tried working the way most of us do?

Response:

My husband is not lazy.  He works 42 hours or more a week.  We are just going through financial problems.  Thanks for your reply.

Actually, financial Aid is so set up that working more may not necessarily get you more money. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I am a mother, wife and I go to school full time.  At the moment I am going through financial difficulty.  Can’t find a job in the area.  I quess it was stupid of me to post the message, but classes start soon and I don’t have the means to pay for the classes Then quit your classes, stay home and mind those humans you put on this operpopulated world and get your lazy assed husband to find a job to support all of you!  Sheeeeeees!!

Response:

Yes, I am a mother, wife and I go to school full time.  At the moment I am going through financial difficulty.  Can’t find a job in the area.  I quess it was stupid of me to post the message, but classes start soon and I don’t have the means to pay for the classes.  Anyway thanks for making me feel worst than I already do.  I do get a kick out of your replies.

Honestly, I really do understand you’re position.  My wife and I are both full time students, and we don’t work.  Why not?  We both need the highest GPA available.  My goal is med school, her’s is a good law school.  So, how do we get by?  In a word: loans.  Loans, loans, and more loans.  But its worth it.  Lets face it: if you are getting a good major (and PLEASE don’t tell me you’re an English/Art/other non-paying subject major) you should have no problem paying it all back later. I’ll say that having a kid at this time was NOT the brightest thing.  But seriously, why not look at what loans are available to you?  If you guys don’t work it should be tons.  It also gets more the longer you study (sophomores get more than freshman, etc.)  Good luck.  Have you filled out an FASFA? BTW, for your medical concerns, you should check with your state office. Believe it or not, many of the facilities available for poor families should be available for you while you’re in school.  That includes Medicaid and other public health insurance.  This will be especially vital for your kid (who should be eligible for medicaid, or MA). Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While they’re at it send ME money too!  Both my wife and I are in college and could use more money.  Still, I’ve never thought of going on Usenet and asking strangers to send me cash… Ever tried working the way most of us do?

Response:

Yes, I am a mother, wife and I go to school full time.  At the moment I am going through financial difficulty.  Can’t find a job in the area.  I quess it was stupid of me to post the message, but classes start soon and I don’t have the means to pay for the classes

Then quit your classes, stay home and mind those humans you put on this operpopulated world and get your lazy assed husband to find a job to support all of you!  Sheeeeeees!!

Response:

My husband is not lazy.  He works 42 hours or more a week.  We are just going through financial problems.  Thanks for your reply.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I am a mother, wife and I go to school full time.  At the moment I am going through financial difficulty.  Can’t find a job in the area.  I quess it was stupid of me to post the message, but classes start soon and I don’t have the means to pay for the classes Then quit your classes, stay home and mind those humans you put on this operpopulated world and get your lazy assed husband to find a job to support all of you!  Sheeeeeees!!

Response:

Yes, I am a mother, wife and I go to school full time.  At the moment I am going through financial difficulty.  Can’t find a job in the area.  I quess it was stupid of me to post the message, but classes start soon and I don’t have the means to pay for the classes.  Anyway thanks for making me feel worst than I already do.  I do get a kick out of your replies.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While they’re at it send ME money too!  Both my wife and I are in college and could use more money.  Still, I’ve never thought of going on Usenet and asking strangers to send me cash… Ever tried working the way most of us do?

Response:

While they’re at it send ME money too!  Both my wife and I are in college and could use more money.  Still, I’ve never thought of going on Usenet and asking strangers to send me cash…

Ever tried working the way most of us do?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <piggybacking At least you don’t have to take any calls from Bob  Wehaddababyitzaboy. mighty1,  did you get this call? No, but I remember making them. Oh, poo. Sunny who for some unhappy reason is getting exactly *none* of mighty1’s posts What kind of getting do you mean? I mean that as of this moment, I’m seeing you and responding to you on Google, which is not my favorite place, but is the *only* place I can see your posts unless someone’s responding to them.  And I never use my killfile, so I wouldn’t have even accidentally put you in there. News server.  Nuts.

In Agent is awfully easy to accidentally KF someone.  Check just in case. But, its probably like with me, news-server. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sunny

Response:

You guys are so funny.  If I don’t get contributions at least I got a laugh. Thanks for replying!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please help with my college tuition!  I have four classes to go to graduate with my Bachelors in Accounting.  Please send all donation to:     Wilkes University     Attn:  Financial Management Office     P.O. Box 111     Wilkes-Barre, PA 18766 Include my name Veronica G. Carroll and ID#6325.  My husband and have faced many adversities within the past year and a half.  We are now going thru financial difficulties and I am now unable to pay for my college tuition. If anyone can contribute, be it $1.00, I would greatly appreciate this. For all those who can help, I will be dedicating a website to those who contribute, so please send an email stating that you contributed to my college tuition. Then I will put your name on my website.  Also if any one has any words of encouragement, please send them to my email address PS  The phone number to WU is 1(800)WILKESU and the website is www.wilkes.edu

Response:

wrote "Jeff

Question:

Congragulations!!!

Response:

They call it a uniform examination for a reason. There are differences

Actually, the reason is that in some states, you are required to wear a uniform when sitting for the exam. Very few people are aware of this little known fact. Some folks erroneously believe that it is called ‘uniform’ because the same exam is given to everyone, bad sadly, they are mistaken.

Response:

They call it a uniform examination for a reason. There are differences Actually, the reason is that in some states, you are required to wear a uniform when sitting for the exam. Very few people are aware of this little known fact. Some folks erroneously believe that it is called ‘uniform’ because the same exam is given to everyone, bad sadly, they are mistaken.

Wear a uniform (suit) and conform (obey our rules), and you pass Go, then proceed to ….

Response:

They call it a uniform examination for a reason. There are differences between states in the manner in which credit is given or not given to parts passed and/or failed. It is speculation but a long time ago I had heard there were different grading curves that were applied on a state by state basis, though pure speculation.

I believe this is essentially correct. The various states (& other jurisdictions) are responsible for licensure regulation.  Any state can use any exam it wishes.  I am sure we would find, if we did the research, that the "uniform" exam was originally adopted as a matter of convenience. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

someone has probably written a history of the uniform examination. maybe someone who has convenient access to a research library could check.

… The various states (& other jurisdictions) are responsible for licensure regulation.  Any state can use any exam it wishes.  I am sure we would find, if we did the research, that the "uniform" exam was originally adopted as a matter of convenience.

… — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *                                                             * *  Retired, but always willing to consider a good job offer.  * *    From the Socialist People’s Republic of Kalifornia,      * *                   Ayn Rand was right                        *

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t feel bad…the version of the exam given in Florida is considerably more difficult that the version administered in other parts of the country. It’s not really fair, but legal challenges in an effort to remedy this inequity have failed thus far. Hey, Z! What evidence supports your claim or were you just being a wise guy? Yeah, I was being a wise guy. I maintained a very serious demeanor to fool everyone. Evidently, I fooled everyone except you

They call it a uniform examination for a reason. There are differences between states in the manner in which credit is given or not given to parts passed and/or failed. It is speculation but a long time ago I had heard there were different grading curves that were applied on a state by state basis, though pure speculation.

Response:

Best wishes on your sprouting career.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took the exam in November for the second time. The first time, I didn’t study. In November, I passed audit and received a 71 in Law. I worked busy season, moved to GA April 15th, and after moved in to my apartment I studied for Audit and Law in 1 and 1/2 weeks.  I did not sleep the night before due to stress; did not answer one of the law essay questions completely; left thinking my third attempt was completely unsuccessful. Today I received the results and my scores were 81 and 88, respectively. On my drive home from work I was trying to motivate myself to study (I have already started for Financial and Tax).  I couldn’t find the motivation.  I opened the mailbox, saw the envelope.  Thought to myself, here is my motivation (failing grades). NOT NOW!!!!!!!  I am having a glass of wine and buying a nice dinner for two later tonight! I questioned my ability to do it.  I can do it! Thanks for reading! Marvelously, Jennifer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took the exam in November for the second time. The first time, I didn’t study. In November, I passed audit and received a 71 in Law. I worked busy season, moved to GA April 15th, and after moved in to my apartment I studied for Audit and Law in 1 and 1/2 weeks.  I did not sleep the night before due to stress; did not answer one of the law essay questions completely; left thinking my third attempt was completely unsuccessful. Today I received the results and my scores were 81 and 88, respectively. On my drive home from work I was trying to motivate myself to study (I have already started for Financial and Tax).  I couldn’t find the motivation.  I opened the mailbox, saw the envelope.  Thought to myself, here is my motivation (failing grades). NOT NOW!!!!!!!  I am having a glass of wine and buying a nice dinner for two later tonight! I questioned my ability to do it.  I can do it! Thanks for reading! Marvelously, Jennifer

Thats great! This is my 4th time taking it (Ugh!) Passed Audit and Law last time with a 77 and 78 respectively and this time passed Accounting and I think I will nail it in November – just wish I didn’t have to wait that Kimberly Walsh Naples FL

Response:

I think I will nail it in November – just wish I didn’t have to wait that Kim Naples FL

Don’t feel bad…the version of the exam given in Florida is considerably more difficult that the version administered in other parts of the country. It’s not really fair, but legal challenges in an effort to remedy this inequity have failed thus far.

Response:

Don’t feel bad…the version of the exam given in Florida is considerably more difficult that the version administered in other parts of the country. It’s not really fair, but legal challenges in an effort to remedy this inequity have failed thus far.

Really? I haven’t heard that particular claim before. You have any credible citations to back it up? easy2000

Response:

Don’t feel bad…the version of the exam given in Florida is considerably more difficult that the version administered in other parts of the country. It’s not really fair, but legal challenges in an effort to remedy this inequity have failed thus far. Really? I haven’t heard that particular claim before. You have any credible citations to back it up? easy2000

I would also be interested in seeing evidence backing this claim.  I was under the impression the since the exam is labeled "Uniform CPA exam" that every state was the same, thereby eliminating any discrepancies which might arise.  I have also been told this by several individuals, although I honestly have never taken the time to actually investigate it.

Response:

Don’t feel bad…the version of the exam given in Florida is considerably more difficult that the version administered in other parts of the country. It’s not really fair, but legal challenges in an effort to remedy this inequity have failed thus far.

Hey, Z! What evidence supports your claim or were you just being a wise guy? easy2000

Response:

Don’t feel bad…the version of the exam given in Florida is considerably more difficult that the version administered in other parts of the country. It’s not really fair, but legal challenges in an effort to remedy this inequity have failed thus far. Hey, Z! What evidence supports your claim or were you just being a wise guy?

Yeah, I was being a wise guy. I maintained a very serious demeanor to fool everyone. Evidently, I fooled everyone except you

Response:

I took the exam in November for the second time.   The first time, I didn’t study.   In November, I passed audit and received a 71 in Law.   I worked busy season, moved to GA April 15th, and after moved in to my apartment I studied for Audit and Law in 1 and 1/2 weeks.  I did not sleep the night before due to stress; did not answer one of the law essay questions completely; left thinking my third attempt was completely unsuccessful. Today I received the results and my scores were 81 and 88, respectively. On my drive home from work I was trying to motivate myself to study (I have already started for Financial and Tax).  I couldn’t find the motivation.  I opened the mailbox, saw the envelope.  Thought to myself, here is my motivation (failing grades). NOT NOW!!!!!!!  I am having a glass of wine and buying a nice dinner for two later tonight! I questioned my ability to do it.  I can do it!   Thanks for reading! Marvelously, Jennifer

Response:

Thanks for reading!

Congratulation, and welcome to the club!!

Response:

Thanks for reading! Congratulation, and welcome to the club!!

Likewise. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html Washington, USA

Response:

Question:

Exactly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the response. Although the credit cards are in his name personally, a significant majority of the activiity was to fund capital as well as purchases for the business. Therefore, the corporation is paying back the credit cards. Given that the cards are in fact personal cards, why not book the corporate use portion as a loan from shareholder?  The corporation can then either repay the shareholder or pay down the loan to shareholder by paying off the corporate use portion and having the individual pay the remainder? — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

Thanks for the response. Although the credit cards are in his name personally, a significant majority of the activiity was to fund capital as well as purchases for the business. Therefore, the corporation is paying back the credit cards.

Given that the cards are in fact personal cards, why not book the corporate use portion as a loan from shareholder?  The corporation can then either repay the shareholder or pay down the loan to shareholder by paying off the corporate use portion and having the individual pay the remainder? — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

Thanks for the response. Although the credit cards are in his name personally, a significant majority of the activiity was to fund capital as well as purchases for the business. Therefore, the corporation is paying back the credit cards.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My recomendation would be to treat the credit card balances, combined, as a loan from stockholders.  You will want to be sure it doesn’t muck up the IRC 351(a) requirements on the incorporation, however… David Are these personal credit cards?  If so, why put them in the corporation? — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

My recomendation would be to treat the credit card balances, combined, as a loan from stockholders.  You will want to be sure it doesn’t muck up the IRC 351(a) requirements on the incorporation, however… David

Are these personal credit cards?  If so, why put them in the corporation? — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

Response:

My recomendation would be to treat the credit card balances, combined, as a loan from stockholders.  You will want to be sure it doesn’t muck up the IRC 351(a) requirements on the incorporation, however… David

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi everyone, I am working with a client who has been in business for about 10 years. He has never had any formal accounting and has pretty much given his check register to his tax preparer for the last ten years.  Needless to say, he really has no idea where his company stands financially.  I have set him up on Quickbooks Pro and done the laboring task of setting up beginning balances and trying to get a good starting point.  The problem is that he has changed his entity type from a sole prop. to a corp.  Therefore, I need to come up with firm numbers for the balance sheet.  This client has at least 11 credit cards that had beginning balances at the beginning of the year that have been carried over from several years ago.  Any suggestions on how I should handle these beginning balances?  These expenses were not taken on p/y tax returns.  The credit card balances are made up of cash advances, purchases and I am sure some personal expenses.  I am not going to amend any of the tax returns for prior years, but I want his books to be as accurate as possible.  Should I adjust retained earnings to reflect these unrecorded expenses?  If not, what would be the offsetting entries to establishing these credit card liabilities? Sorry for the lengthy message.  Any advice is welcomed.

Response:

Question:

>I’m really frustrated right now, and not looking forward to this >coming week.

Well, I wish you lived closer – we could go out for a frustration drink or cup of coffee.  :-) Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

>>>gplen…@aol.comlitter (Geri and Brian) writes >My question has more to do with this second mediation, which BM instigated – >she states it would have been ordered anyway.  Why would the court order a >mediation after the court evaluation has already started, when the first court >evaluation was brought about by the initial mediation’s failure?  This timing >seems very odd.  We have a call in to the court evaluator to try to find out >what the real story is – hopefully we will hear on Monday.<<<<

In California, mediation prior to the hearing is required by law except in very limited circumstances.  If they haven’t been to mediation in a year, the law would require they try it, even if an evaluation is underway. The only way (potentially) out of it is to request a hearing w/ the Judge and ask that mediation be waived. That is more expensive, frustrating and time consuming than just attending the mediation would be. Besides… if BM is that unreasonable, that might come out in the mediation report too. The end of the story for dad is basically that the evalutation will carry the most weight. The mediation is a "necessary" he’s got to do per the law, and if he asks not to do it HE might look like he’s unwilling to compromise.  If he goes into it "expecting" BM to be unreasonable — in the sense that he is prepared for that — it will be easier for him to keep his cool and harder for her to push his buttons.  So if the mediator can’t get it removed from calendar (due to the evaluation), just go and make the best of it.  It "might" even work.  :-) Helene P. Dreyer, Attorney at Law Riverside County, California Divorce, Appeals, QDROs, Family Law, Adoptions ********  www.dreyerlaw.com **********

Response:

Us too. NCP as ATM. Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Geri and Brian wrote: > Oh my – we truly are dealing with the same person, TC!

Response:

> Damn – now I’m gonna have to get up early enough to drive >to Starbucks…

Gosh, at the Starbucks out here, they only have flavored syrups.  (The caramel is heavenly.) Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

We talked the mediation v. evaluation thing over a lot.  We ended up kind of doing a compromise.  BM is in violation of a couple of court orders, and my husband wanted that addressed.  So he wrote BM and told her if she comes into compliance with the court orders, he will consider mediation. Then he talked to the court evaluator, yesterday.  (She SEEMS more personable than the one we had last year.)  It turns out that the mediation was not going to be ordered by the court – it is a BM instigated thing only, so BM was either wrong or lied about that. She was also rather peeved that BM wanted this eleventh hour thing, because she is having to rearrange scheduling of meetings, etc., if it happens. My husband told her he would have been open to this months ago, more than now when the evaluation process is already underway, and the evaluator said she told BM that very thing – that she should have thought of this earlier (but she would go along with it if that is what we want). So, that is where we are at the moment.  The evaluation is still set to go, though we might do the evaluation AND a mediation.  Meanwhile, we are working on a parenting plan to present, since this evaluator wants us to come prepared with one. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

Vicky, I am following up my own post here (lame).  Brian came back and read your post.  Now he has a question for me to put on here and see if this can be mediated: How do a person reconcile the state’s policy of constant and continuous contact with a parent, while that parent also potentially poses risk factors like mental illness, previous history violent behaviors etc.  How can a mediation determine how those things can be balanced appropriately? He is feeling like the neutral third party (evaluator) has to look at all of our stuff and make that determination, because we are not sure ourselves.  (He has been doing a lot of research on how people with a history of violent behavior tend to continue being violent and it is kind of scary stuff.)  He is also feeling like the BM breaking court orders, and whether or not she has completed her court ordered counseling needs to be addressed, and it doesn’t sound like that can be done in mediation, can it? At least he is not going to make a decision one way or the other until after he talks with the evaluator. As much as we can guess, by the dates of the various documents we have gotten and the time frame of events, we think maybe when we hired the service to transport my SD for the exchange yesterday, and BM flipped out, maybe she had hoped to mediate that, but since the date available for mediation was too late, decided to see if the whole case can be mediated.  Who knows.  Maybe we will have some more answers tomorrow. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

>He should *always* try.  The worst thing that can happen >is that it’ll break down and the evaluator will make the decision.

Thank you for the wise words.  My husband is out making copies of more of this endless paperwork, but I am going to let him read this when he gets home. Tomorrow [hopefully] he will be talking to the evaluator and find out what exactly is going on.  He has a large list of things he wants addressed and feels that an evaluation is the only way to be sure to get them heard.  Maybe if he thinks he can get these things addressed during mediaton he would be a little more open to it. I have already discussed with him that if he puts this in the court’s hands, he may not like the outcome.  I hope he is prepared if that is the way he wants to do it. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

>I got a set of those in the mail the other day. 8 pages for *me* and 8 for >Karl.

If we get the same ones we had last year, the ones we fill out for the evaluator are not that complex.  I am talking about over two feet of documentation to sift through, summarize and prioritize.  We already had a running start on it, but we were not expecting the evaluation to start quite so soon.  It is a little earlier than last time, and they have continued our case anyway. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

>- the NCP does not need to be informed of dr’s visits, shool report >cards, scool pictures, school or church programs, or any other events >- she can refuse certified mail, and throw away other attempts at >correspondence with her >the children’s feelings regarding extended >visitation are manipulated by means of statements said to the children >to foster unhappiness and fear >- the children should not have any sort of a close relationship to >their step-mother or her family. > the NCP has no rights or decision making power regarding the >children >- the children are hers, "and posession is nine tenths of the law" >Can you set penalties in mediation if an agreement is violated? >What kind of proof is required?  Do you have to go to court to prove >that she’s violated the agreement?

Oh my – we truly are dealing with the same person, TC! Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

In a previous article, T.C. said: : :>You don’t mediate for changes in behavior.  You don’t mediate to :>control the other person.  You mediate to solve a problem, and that :>problem is much smaller than the outlines of another person’s :>behavior.   : :So if the other parent truly believes things like : [snip CP's attempts to cut NCP from child's life] :How do you mediate with someone who truly believes that the NCP should :just "go away" but send the check each month?   : You lay out these differences in philosophy in detail on the table, without judgement.  What is in the children’s best interests, disregarding, for the moment, the parents’ interests?  You get her to say that biodad is irrelevant to their development.  Then the mediator should point out that taking it to court will surely result in much different conclusions on the judge’s part.  I can tell my clients what New York’s official position is on the place of both parents in a child’s life, and the basis upon which the judge will probably make hir decision.  I can tell my clients that they can collaborate to find the best solution for all of them (children and parents) or they can leave it up to the judge who will most certainly try to be even-handed, and will end up handing down a judgement that may not fit anyone’s needs or wants.  That the parents are the best judges of what their children need, and a judge will not understand those children as well as the parents do.  I continually emphasize that settling things in mediation keeps the *power* in the parents’ hands.  That word, power, has a strong and important effect. :She follows most court orders to the letter, and anything left open :for interpretation is interpreted in her favor or we have to try to :get another court date to get things more specific. : The parenting plan is official when it is filed with the court and approved by the judge.  It is an enforceable order.   Some provisions may be included in an agreement that are *not* enforceable.  I don’t have a problem with that, although I do inform clients that this or that is not enforceable, but is a valuable statement of values.  I always put in a clause that says that neither parent will say or do anything to diminish the status of the other parent in the children’s eyes, and that each parent will do what is necessary to encourage a loving and close bond between the children and the other parent.  We do not specify what those things could be, but we may discuss them in the sessions.  Depending on where you live, this kind of statement may actually be enforceable, under alienation laws, but I am very hazy on this.  (Remember I’m not a lawyer, and none of this is legal advice!) :How do you mediate with that?  Can you really mediate how many pairs f underwear are required for a visit?   Yeah, but it would be kind of silly.   :Can you really mediate that :she not make any derogatory statements about the NCP in front of the :kids?   Yes. :Can you set penalties in mediation if an agreement is violated? No.  That’s way beyond the scope of a mediated agreement.  For that, you’d have to go back to court, and I’m not sure that "penalties" would apply.  But there again, you’re going past my expertise here; the court can enforce your agreement.   :What kind of proof is required?  Do you have to go to court to prove :that she’s violated the agreement? : Yes, you do, and I don’t know what is considered proof.  I’d suppose that it would depend on the infraction and the court. :Vicki – please help me to understand how you mediate these issues.   Your mediator (I typed that "medicator" first; that must mean something!) can tell you more.  You can caucus with your mediator if you have reason to distrust the process.  Your mediator, though, may be able to get through to biomom that, even if she feels that biodad is irrelevant to the kids’ lives, the courts will not feel that way, and she stands to lose a whole lot more by entering into an agreement in bad faith than if she participates in the process and sticks to her agreement.  The mediator may be able to convince her that her best hope lies in collaborating with you to provide the kids with everything they need.  If previous court orders have gone against her, she may have every reason to be convinced. I can’t guarantee that mediation’s going to work, of course.  But it’s amazing how well it can succeed, especially if you have a skillful mediator. Vicki — Does it make any sense to say that I decompensate between paradigms?  Probably not.      -Jane Lawrence

Response:

In a previous article, T.C. said: :Our question is how do you mediate for dramatic changes in behavior? :We don’t believe it’s possible, but we shall see.  Perhaps Vicki (sp?) :can shed some light – the subject header should draw her in fast :enough <grin> : <snork!>  Wha…?  Is it time to get up? You don’t mediate for changes in behavior.  You don’t mediate to control the other person.  You mediate to solve a problem, and that problem is much smaller than the outlines of another person’s behavior.   The way I approach things is that the parties *always* have interests in common.  Always.  Those needs need to be articulated.  That’s where I always start:  How will we know when we are finished?  What principles need to govern our work here?  Interests that always come up are, of course, the best interests of the children.  (We don’t define that immediately, but everyone always agrees that they want their children to be damaged as little as possible.)  Other interests that come up are financial stability, the need for both parties to maintain some kind of standard of living.  There are lots of others. But if we start with a set of overarching principles that we post on newsprint at the beginning, it sets the tone.  The only place that I feel justified in getting prescriptive is in emphasizing that kids need both parents.  Period.  (I will also say here that I have never dealt with any parents who were abusive or criminally neglectful.  I’m not sure how I’d handle that.)  Mediators are supposed to be neutral, and I am, but I will take the position of the kids’ advocate.  (One of my colleagues does not.  His most nightmarish mediation involved a couple with 5 children.  They fought and argued over the older four. The fifth, each of them just dismissed with "Oh, you can have him." He had to take repeated showers after than mediation to feel clean again.) Anyway, you don’t have to tell people how they need to behave.  You need to outline outcomes for the kids. There are many ways to achieve the same goals. :As for the domestic violence question – DH had to fill out a :questionaire regarding violence.  Apparently they can do some sort of :deal where both parties are in separate rooms and the mediator walks :back and forth with each offer and counter offer. "Shuttle mediation."  Not the best way, but it works. Vicki — Does it make any sense to say that I decompensate between paradigms?  Probably not.      -Jane Lawrence

Response:

> Meanwhile, we work on this paperwork for the evaluator.  Uck.  It feels like > the world’s biggest term paper.

I got a set of those in the mail the other day. 8 pages for *me* and 8 for Karl. It took me 3 days to do mine, because I couldn’t get my head to think clearly. And Karl, well his is still lying on the desk unfinished. Actually I don’t think he has even looked at them. I know that they were mailed seprately, with instructions to be in the person’s own handwriting, and mine said for Karl’s and mine to be done seprately without discussing our answers to the questions. The part that confused me was, I got them, but BM’s boyfriend, who lives with her, didn’t. Explain that one will ya? But being the good girl I was, I filled them out. I will mail mine back tomorrow and hopefully Karl will get his done so I can mail his.That way the GAL knows that they were done seprately. Sharyn

Response:

>And having gone through all this, I think what Merrie told you over a year >ago is still true. There’s a better than good chance you’ll end up with >50-50 custody of your SD indefinitely

I don’t even think that would be so bad, if we could find some way to make decisions with BM without every little tiny thing becoming a huge ordeal, and if she could find some way to just be a good mom to her child and quit bugging us.  She has been putting on quite a show of concerned mom in the past few months, and I truly hope for my SD’s sake that she continues to do so after the court’s eye is no longer on her. I am very, very tired of all of this warfare.  It is not doing anyone any good, least of all my SD. Sometimes I wish it were possible to take my SD on an extended trip somewhere and leave the two bioparents to do all the battling. Then we could come home when it was over. (Sorry, everyone, to be grunching – I am PMSing and also I think the fact that all of this has to occur over the holidays just sucks.) Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

In a previous article, gplen…@aol.comlitter (Geri and Brian) said: :Well, we are having some interesting thoughts and discussions at our house :right now.  My husband is more of the mind of letting the court evaluator hear :both our sides and making the decision.  I am more of the mind that he should :go to the mediation and see what she has to say – it can always be stopped :couldn’t it? : WARNING!  I have no idea what regulations court-ordered-or-supervised mediation labors under.  All of my experience is with voluntary, private mediation, so it is from that viewpoint that I answer. However, true mediation is always voluntary, which means that either party to the mediation can stop it at any time.  And your husband is nuts if he thinks that it would be better to let someone else make the decisions.  He should *always* try.  The worst thing that can happen is that it’ll break down and the evaluator will make the decision. :How would asking for BM to have a psych evaluation fit into a mediation :scenario?  My husband’s psychologist has read BM’s letters and of course, has :heard our version, at least, of her antics, and agrees that she probably has :some sort of personality disorder.  Of course, he can’t make a diagnosis like :that for court purposes.  Our concern is more that she get some help, and :perhaps some medication, and then maybe she might be somewhat more easy to deal :with – at least for my SD’s sake. : You can request a "caucus" with the mediator, which is a private meeting held with the knowledge of the other party.  The mediator will then caucus with biomom, too, but not to reveal what you discussed. At that time you can raise any of these delicate issues and discuss with the mediator good ways to handle it.  Remember that in a real mediation, you call the the shots.  The mediator is there as an expert in problem-solving, to help you figure out ways to communicate, but you and biomom call the shots.  (By "you" I guess I should be saying "DH" since he’s the other bioparent.) :In a mediation, who can ask for something like that?  Also, what about things :like telling us where she is going to take SD on vacation?  We were worried :sick during the earthquake, because we had no idea where SD was.  (We don’t :give a rat’s patootie about where BM is going on vacation, or invading her :privacy – we just want to know where SD is if there is an emergency.) : There is no reason at all that it can’t be put in the parenting plan that each parent must be informed of a phone number where the children can be reached if they will be out of town (or away from home) for 24 hours or more.  That’s routine in my agreements.  No one has ever complained. :My husbands thought is to go with the court evaluation, because he feels that :all our concerns can be heard that way.  A mediation would probably take days – :can they go over one day?   Sure, they can.  Why not?  A mediation should take as long as it takes to settle. :He is thinking, how can we mediate with a person who :digs in her heels and won’t budge? We have tried to compromise with her on :various issues over the months without success.  If we don’t do what she wants, :we are uncooperative.  If we offer a compromise, it is shot down, with no :reciprocal offer.  What happens if that occurs in mediation? Then the mediation is over.  You can only try.  But if you get a good mediator, it might work better than you think, especially since I’ll bet biomom is getting weary of the garbage too.  I have to say that I’m heartened by the fact that biomom is the one requesting the mediation.  Go with it! : :I am sure BM would not allow me into the mediation.  What if my husband would :want to discuss something with me in the middle – can they break so he can do :that? Yep.  A party to the mediation can bring whomever he or she wishes, although the mediator might ask you to wait outside.  You can also bring an attorney if you wish.  I recommend *strongly* that you don’t. : :I don’t know how this will all turn out.  I guess we will have a conversation :with the evaluator before we decide. : My feeling is that mediation is always worth a shot.  Always.  The worst that can happen is that it’ll break down, and then you’re no worse off than you were at the beginning.  At best, you can actually craft an agreement that works reasonably well for everyone. Vicki — Does it make any sense to say that I decompensate between paradigms?  Probably not.      -Jane Lawrence

Response:

>DH wants to just go ahead with the court eval – I’m >curious about what she will say in mediation.  Our BM won’t budge at >all either, etc etc….

That is amazingly similar.   I hate that this has to come up during Christmas, though.  The whole process is extremely depressing, IMO. I wish we could get it all continued until January. I see no hope for the mediation – I can see where my SD gets her stubborn streak – both parents.  Sigh.   Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

gplen…@aol.comlitter (Geri and Brian) writes >My question has more to do with this second mediation, which BM instigated – >she states it would have been ordered anyway.  Why would the court order a >mediation after the court evaluation has already started, when the first court >evaluation was brought about by the initial mediation’s failure?  This timing >seems very odd.  We have a call in to the court evaluator to try to find out >what the real story is – hopefully we will hear on Monday.

DH was ordered to mediation. They went. They litigated more. They went to trial on a few issues. They got sent *back* to mediation. They litigated some more. They got sent back to mediation a third time They went back to trial. Again. The judge — after hearing a few of the arguments presented — insisted they go out in the hall and try to talk about a settlement. Mediation without the mediator Judges *hate* trials. The courts are thoroughly jammed. It’s been a year since your last mediation. Lots of water under bridges. After the court evaluation starts, you both will be even more inclined to settle. Another round of mediation will take place in light of the clarity of some issues that were still vague a year ago I think your BM may be speaking the truth here — it’s likely there would have been another round of mediation anyway. The timing might simply be a result of when someone was available to mediate (is this a mediator, or, more likely, a judge pro tem?). Or it might be deliberate. The closer one gets to a judge, the more likely one is to settle Just ask Nikki -k. — i…@panix.com              |   The Max Cam is up and running! Try it: Kim Scheinberg              |     www.panix.com/~jzk  TAKE PICTURE

Response:

>DH was ordered to mediation. They went. They litigated more. They went to >trial on a few issues. They got sent *back* to mediation. They litigated >some more. They got sent back to mediation a third time >They went back to trial. Again. The judge — after hearing a few of the >arguments presented — insisted they go out in the hall and try to talk >about a settlement. Mediation without the mediator

That makes me tired just to read it.  What did you do while your husband was going through all of that? Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

gplen…@aol.comlitter (Geri and Brian) writes >>DH was ordered to mediation. They went. They litigated more. They went to >>trial on a few issues. They got sent *back* to mediation. They litigated >>some more. They got sent back to mediation a third time >>They went back to trial. Again. The judge — after hearing a few of the >>arguments presented — insisted they go out in the hall and try to talk >>about a settlement. Mediation without the mediator >That makes me tired just to read it.  What did you do while your husband was >going through all of that?

Geri, it’s a *long* process. Ours dragged out for 3 years and there was no real custody battle. Even after we bifurcated — that is, legally divorced without final property settlements — it took another 10 months. And this wasn’t a complicated we-need-to-evaluate-his-business thing. DH earned a straight salary. There was property that had been appraised. There was a 401k. The biggest issue was the Date Of Separation and that we the issue we went to trial over. We won that, btw, though we had been willing to settle on the date just to hasten the process. I’m pretty sure we’d have won on all points at trial but we gave up a good chunk of money to have it over and done with. Our BM wasn’t unreasonable, per se. She just felt that he left, therefore she was entitled to more than the law allowed. And there was no shaking her from that position. She went through three lawyers before she found one who would argue from that standpoint. The other two told her to take any of our numerous offers We had trial dates get rescheduled — one of the lawyers got sick or had a conflicting trial date or the judge was ill. We had mediation sessions that went nowhere. You name it. What should have been resolved in six months could have dragged out another three years. It takes forever to reschedule a trial date. The courts are often closed. You name it… What did I do? I learned enough about California divorce laws to pass a bar exam. I learned forensic accounting, too. I learned to forget about ‘fair’ in exchange for learning about ‘workable’ And having gone through all this, I think what Merrie told you over a year ago is still true. There’s a better than good chance you’ll end up with 50-50 custody of your SD indefinitely -k. — i…@panix.com              |   The Max Cam is up and running! Try it: Kim Scheinberg              |     www.panix.com/~jzk  TAKE PICTURE

Response:

>Therefore, by requesting >the mediation ahead of time, she’s expediting resolution.

I could understand that frame of thought, except the date the mediation is scheduled on is after the court evaluations are already underway.  It seems like the mediation should be first. Our court date was also continued three weeks – this unrelated to the mediation thing as far as we know, since we received notification of that the previous week. Nothing like a little fun for the holidays. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

>but >sometimes people get smart and realize that they stand a better chance >of getting a tolerable settlement if they keep the control in their >own hands, rather than handing it over to attorneys and a judge.

Well, we are having some interesting thoughts and discussions at our house right now.  My husband is more of the mind of letting the court evaluator hear both our sides and making the decision.  I am more of the mind that he should go to the mediation and see what she has to say – it can always be stopped couldn’t it? How would asking for BM to have a psych evaluation fit into a mediation scenario?  My husband’s psychologist has read BM’s letters and of course, has heard our version, at least, of her antics, and agrees that she probably has some sort of personality disorder.  Of course, he can’t make a diagnosis like that for court purposes.  Our concern is more that she get some help, and perhaps some medication, and then maybe she might be somewhat more easy to deal with – at least for my SD’s sake. In a mediation, who can ask for something like that?  Also, what about things like telling us where she is going to take SD on vacation?  We were worried sick during the earthquake, because we had no idea where SD was.  (We don’t give a rat’s patootie about where BM is going on vacation, or invading her privacy – we just want to know where SD is if there is an emergency.) My husbands thought is to go with the court evaluation, because he feels that all our concerns can be heard that way.  A mediation would probably take days – can they go over one day?  He is thinking, how can we mediate with a person who digs in her heels and won’t budge? We have tried to compromise with her on various issues over the months without success.  If we don’t do what she wants, we are uncooperative.  If we offer a compromise, it is shot down, with no reciprocal offer.  What happens if that occurs in mediation? I am sure BM would not allow me into the mediation.  What if my husband would want to discuss something with me in the middle – can they break so he can do that? I don’t know how this will all turn out.  I guess we will have a conversation with the evaluator before we decide. Meanwhile, we work on this paperwork for the evaluator.  Uck.  It feels like the world’s biggest term paper. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Geri and Brian wrote: > Last year, my husband and the BM had a court ordered mediation which was > grossly unsuccessful – in fact it terminated after about 30 minutes.  It was > because of this that the court evaluation was ordered.  After the evaluation > and court date were completed, the case was continued for one year, 50/50 legal > and physical custody, no primary CP. > We have now received notification of the commencement of our second court > evaluation.  To our surprise, the following business day we received a summons > for mediation – the date set after the court evaluation meetings are already > underway (and may even be completed).  We could not figure what the point of > mediating at that time would be, after the evaluation was already in progress. > Today we received a letter from BM stating that she had initiated the > mediation, but that the court would have done so if she had not.  (At this > point, I think the idea of mediation is probably too little, too late, anyway, > as there are too many unresolved issues, broken court orders, etc. to be dealt > with.)  My question is – why would the court of done this, after the > evaluations were already in process?   Also, since the evaluators will not even > let them be in the same room (big red letters on the file – DOMESTIC VIOLENCE) > at the same time – how could a mediator?

I’m just guessing.  What BM may have meant was that before you go back in, you will be ordered into mediation.  If DH and BM can’t work out a deal, then whoever is looking at their case will look into the evaluations, etc.  Therefore, by requesting the mediation ahead of time, she’s expediting resolution. Otherwise, you’d have to wait for the evaluations, then wait for the court date, then wait for the mediation date, then wait for another court date.  But as I said, that’s just a guess. In my experience, restraining orders have exceptions for court ordered appearances.  I believe that some states have tried foregoing mediation in domestic violence cases as an alternative. jane

Response:

In a previous article, gplen…@aol.comlitter (Geri and Brian) said: : :Naturally, we are speculating what BM’s real motivation for this mediation :might be, at the eleventh hour, so to speak. Maybe it’s what drives a lot of people into reluctantly cooperating with mediation; it’s a sure win, but only of part of the marbles. Some people are so convinced that they’re going to prevail in court and take *all* the marbles that they’ll blow off mediation, but sometimes people get smart and realize that they stand a better chance of getting a tolerable settlement if they keep the control in their own hands, rather than handing it over to attorneys and a judge. This is a perfectly valid and unremarkable motivation for going for mediation.  I hope it works out for you this time. Vicki — Does it make any sense to say that I decompensate between paradigms?  Probably not.      -Jane Lawrence

Response:

Last year, my husband and the BM had a court ordered mediation which was grossly unsuccessful – in fact it terminated after about 30 minutes.  It was because of this that the court evaluation was ordered.  After the evaluation and court date were completed, the case was continued for one year, 50/50 legal and physical custody, no primary CP. We have now received notification of the commencement of our second court evaluation.  To our surprise, the following business day we received a summons for mediation – the date set after the court evaluation meetings are already underway (and may even be completed).  We could not figure what the point of mediating at that time would be, after the evaluation was already in progress. Today we received a letter from BM stating that she had initiated the mediation, but that the court would have done so if she had not.  (At this point, I think the idea of mediation is probably too little, too late, anyway, as there are too many unresolved issues, broken court orders, etc. to be dealt with.)  My question is – why would the court of done this, after the evaluations were already in process?   Also, since the evaluators will not even let them be in the same room (big red letters on the file – DOMESTIC VIOLENCE) at the same time – how could a mediator? Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

Hi Geri,     What state are you in?  We are in WV but our case is in PA (where BM is), and PA requires mediation as a first step regardless of the history. BM files for more CS about every 6-8 months and they wind up going to a mediation session every single time.  Sometimes they settle it before the mediator, sometimes they don’t and they have to progress to a hearing officer (who knows what you have to do to actually see a *judge* in PA!!). But anyway, custody disputes, CS modifications and everything else must go before a mediator now in PA–they call it the Lighthouse Program.  Maybe your state is initiating something similar.  It’s supposed to be very successful and has helped the backlog of the family court.     However, it does seem odd in light of the domestic violence issue that you mention.  The only thing I can think of is that, presumably, this will happen in the courthouse where there is sufficient security available to prevent an incident.  I hope so, anyway.     I’ll be interested to read how it turns out. audra PS-Please tell me what "To e-mail us, dump the litterbox" means!!  I hate to admit to my cluelessness, but I’ve been meaning to ask…. Geri and Brian wrote in message

<19991127170805.08283.00000…@ng-fl1.aol.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Today we received a letter from BM stating that she had initiated the >mediation, but that the court would have done so if she had not.  (At this >point, I think the idea of mediation is probably too little, too late, anyway, >as there are too many unresolved issues, broken court orders, etc. to be dealt >with.)  My question is – why would the court of done this, after the >evaluations were already in process?   Also, since the evaluators will not even >let them be in the same room (big red letters on the file – DOMESTIC VIOLENCE) >at the same time – how could a mediator? >Geri >~~~~~~~~~~ >"A hairball is not a toy.." >~~~~~~~~~~ >To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response:

>What state are you in?

We live in California.>But anyway, custody disputes, CS modifications and everything else must go >before a mediator now in PA–they call it the Lighthouse Program.  Maybe >your state is initiating something similar.

I think they do in CA, too.  My husband and BM did go through a brief mediation at the start of the custody dispute, but it terminated in about 30 minutes, by the mediator. My question has more to do with this second mediation, which BM instigated – she states it would have been ordered anyway.  Why would the court order a mediation after the court evaluation has already started, when the first court evaluation was brought about by the initial mediation’s failure?  This timing seems very odd.  We have a call in to the court evaluator to try to find out what the real story is – hopefully we will hear on Monday. Naturally, we are speculating what BM’s real motivation for this mediation might be, at the eleventh hour, so to speak. >However, it does seem odd in light of the domestic violence issue that >you mention.

Hopefully the court evaluator will shed some light on this as well.  We have a new evaluator this time, BTW.  The one we had last year was promoted into some other position.  My husband ran into her recently at the courthouse.  Her first question to him was to ask if BM was following the court orders. (Well, as they say on Veggie Tales, "Have we got a show for you!") >PS-Please tell me what "To e-mail us, dump the litterbox" means!!  I hate to >admit to my cluelessness, but I’ve been meaning to ask….

Look after my e-mail address, it says litter. That is in there to prevent spammers.  I wanted to put litterbox, but it was too many letters, so I shortened it to litter. If you want to use the e-mail addy, you just take the litter part out – see?  :-) Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

Response: