Question:

Let us know how this went, okay.  {{{{{Ian}}}}} Oh, believe me, I will, if I’m alive, and not wildly screaming. Well, even if I’m wildly screaming, I should be able to hammer out a post. (Oh my goodness, how I dread this horrible event. To think that people are going there of their own free will….)

Hi Ian, We’ve all had to go to place or occasions we don’t feel comfortable with. Yes you are catastrophising this and perhaps it will be as bad as you say. Do what you can live with. If staying home is worse than going, then simply go and laugh about it later when you tell us how it went. You just never know, you might surprise yourself and actually have a great time Vanessa — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hi Ian, I recently turned down an invitation to attend a wedding within the family. I simply explained that it would have been too much for me at this time. Personally, I knew that attending would stress me out. Also, it’s hard to celebrate other people’s romantic good fortune when my disorder has kept me lonely and isolated for more than a decade. And what to do about all the socializing that goes on at such events? Not only am I somewhat social phobic, but people aren’t going to want to hear about my issues during the casual conversation which is common at weddings and receptions. It’s one of those situations where I feel like I have to pretend that my PD isn’t a serious issue, and I really dislike situations like that. Most people wouldn’t understand my situation and simply feel like the loser everyone is looking down on. Too many difficulties all round. Not attending was the best decision for me. Best Wishes, Arthur — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Oh you married people. You probably forget how difficult it was to get married in the first place.

Yup.  It is easy to forget.  I remember first dates well.  Panic attack city. The tone for the night? It would be a death dirge of despair, and other alliterations as well. It’s not that I *want* to be like this. The last time I saw her I didn’t plan out ahead of time, "I’m going to completely ignore her, and inwardly die." It just sort of played out that way. <sigh If only we could email each other, it would be fine. It’s that damn talking that gets me. The only real thing I have on my side is that her last marriage, to the rich doctor, didn’t work out, so maybe she’ll look for his complete opposite, the poor disabled sleeping guy. Ya never know!

Hey, did she get half!?  You gotta reel that one in brother.  Play the cool 007 role.  Don’t act too interested, but certainly don’t act uninterested.  You need to send _mixed_ vibes.  Chicks love/hate that. Come up with some conversation topics before you go.  Just a few short things to talk about when you see her.  Throughout the day/night you have these short little chat sessions with her and after a minute or two you just say you have to go and "mingle" and will talk to her again later.   Now you "mingle" may mean running into the bathroom and hiding by the toilet, but she doesn’t need to know that. So every 1/2 hour come out from behind the toilet and go play the 007 role. Jim — You roll an 18 in Dex and see if you don’t end up with a girlfriend JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I very luckily did not get invited to a wedding that’s taking place tomorrow, but unfortunately found that an excellent opportunity to complain. "Well *I* haven’t received an invitation." So my mom, equally indignant, or possibly knowing that I was bluffing, and just furthering her quest to make me uncomfortable, made sure that I got an invitation. At first I didn’t know what to say, because I had just been acting indignant over the whole thing, but eventually my true feelings came out, and I told her, "Well if I don’t receive an invitation by Friday, I’m free and clear." Knowing the full extent of my plans, my mom redoubled her efforts to get me invited, and sure enough, I got a phone call last night from the bride’s mother telling me I had the green light to go to the wedding. I pretended to be somewhat enthusiastic, but inwardly I was screaming things that would have made a sailor blush. Now I have to go to this wedding tomorrow, and it’s *not* close enough for me to walk home when the anxiety hits, as it will. It’s in the middle of nowhere, at a barn, and will probably lag on for hours, possibly weeks. Keep in mind, *we don’t have a car*. I will literally be trapped in this hellish barn for hours and hours, and probably won’t even be able to bring a book, or my MP3 player, as if those would quell the rising tide of anxiety. Notice a book doesn’t help at the ER waiting room, or on airplanes. It just reminds you that you want to go home, where better entertainment exists. Sure, the woman I’ve loved for 25 yrs will be there, giving me another opportunity to act like a ten yr-old, looking away and being silent, and making wonderful conversation like, "How are you? Oh, okay," and walking away. She’s, I think, one yr older than I am, and recently divorced (big plus), but as unapproachable as the planet Neptune. So I have that to look forward to. She’s always with her sister, too, and they tend to laugh silently with one another at my social ineptitude. Plus the inevitable dinner conversation, which will probably not involve any jokes I make about wombats, my cat, or Republicans … rather just embarrassed silence, as I wish I could say *anything* even remotely like the casual banter I make on Usenet. I can’t go there doped up on Klonopin and Haldol, because I *will* fall asleep, and as far as I know, there won’t be a nurse’s tent. This is going to suck. This will suck enough to leech the chrome off a trailer hitch. If anyone from ASAPM would like to go in my stead, I have an all-purpose Ian Disguise Kit I bought from Wile E. Coyote, who was unable to make use of it in catching the roadrunner. Help!!! There’s not enough medicine in the world to make this anything slightly better than a grating, mind-numbing, soul-sucking ordeal. Not looking forward to it, IOW. Ian — Ian, as far as I am concerned, easy answer.  Don’t go.  If it is making you crazy do not go.  If people do not understand, who cares?  Don’t try to do something you feel you cannot do.  I know that feeling.  It is better to send apologies and deal with what is on your plate.  At some time you will have to go somewhere but I am sure no one will be angry with you about this. Love, Vicki

What Vicki said, only double. Don’t go. Don’t go. Nobody’s opinion about Ian matters, except Ian’s. I know I sure don’t have the ability to "make" people think much of anything about me, good or bad. Nobody’s sitting with a score card jotting down the fact you attended or didn’t (except you) – attention will be on the bride and groom, not on guests, Ian. Hell.. anything that causes me the type of anxiety you seem to be going through, I just put it in the "I ain’t gonna do it" category, and give myself full permission to not do it. I don’t care who cares, or what they think. It’s my life, and I am not going to live according to what others  MIGHT (I stress might) think, or what I PERCEIVE that their expectations are of me. They aren’t judge over me so long as I don’t MAKE them my judge in MY own mind. As my ex used to say quite a bit..Fuck em if they can’t take a joke. Yes. I said the "F" word in group.  I think that’s the first time I have.. I better change my posting name to pottymouth coming out of the closet. Take care of Ian and do NOT go. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Too many difficulties all round.

Wow, Arthur, are you sure you’re not me, posting while in a blackout or something? That’s *exactly* what the situation is like. Good to know I have a brother in anxiety out there in the wide world. Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

What Vicki said, only double. Don’t go. Don’t go.

That’s what I’ll do, then. You know, it feels very good. I know I sure don’t have the ability to "make" people think much of anything about me, good or bad.

Oh, well I think you’re quite nice, Sally, even if you said the F word in your post. Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Ian, you are sooo funny-if I had air in my car and you lived near Chgo. I would drive you AND your mom to the barn and back just to hear your witty remarks and see the badger on your head. ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So every 1/2 hour come out from behind the toilet and go play the 007 role. Brilliant! "Sho, Mish Moneypenneh…." That might work. I often think people who are married are people who have succeeded at dating where others have failed. I should take your advice, or, possibly, ignore your advice, as coming from one of the "succeeders". I think I’m a failure, and I’m willing to back that up with statistics! Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I very luckily did not get invited to a wedding that’s taking place tomorrow, but unfortunately found that an excellent opportunity to complain.

Ian, in a situation this disastrous there can be only one solution – fake your own death. If you can get hold of a male corpse of roughly your own height, I can supply 200 gallons of gasoline and a seat on the next flight to Equador.  Let me know what you decide by sundown and I’ll send Big Louis around with the stuff.  :-) — _TJ_ <TJ_IREL at YAHOO dot IE — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

So every 1/2 hour come out from behind the toilet and go play the 007 role.

Brilliant! "Sho, Mish Moneypenneh…." That might work. I often think people who are married are people who have succeeded at dating where others have failed. I should take your advice, or, possibly, ignore your advice, as coming from one of the "succeeders". I think I’m a failure, and I’m willing to back that up with statistics! Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Well, the saga is over. I phoned my mom and told her, "I’m too anxious. I’m not going." She said, "Whatever," and hung up on me. So  … that’s over with. Now it’s time to celebrate with a big horkin’ Mason jar of coffee and the rest of this massive stack of candy bars. Hooray! Thanks everyone for setting me straight. Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I very luckily did not get invited to a wedding that’s taking place tomorrow, but unfortunately found that an excellent opportunity to complain. "Well *I* haven’t received an invitation." So my mom, equally indignant, or possibly knowing that I was bluffing, and just furthering her quest to make me uncomfortable, made sure that I got an invitation. At first I didn’t know what to say, because I had just been acting indignant over the whole thing, but eventually my true feelings came out, and I told her, "Well if I don’t receive an invitation by Friday, I’m free and clear." Knowing the full extent of my plans, my mom redoubled her efforts to get me invited, and sure enough, I got a phone call last night from the bride’s mother telling me I had the green light to go to the wedding. I pretended to be somewhat enthusiastic, but inwardly I was screaming things that would have made a sailor blush. Now I have to go to this wedding tomorrow, and it’s *not* close enough for me to walk home when the anxiety hits, as it will. It’s in the middle of nowhere, at a barn, and will probably lag on for hours, possibly weeks. Keep in mind, *we don’t have a car*. I will literally be trapped in this hellish barn for hours and hours, and probably won’t even be able to bring a book, or my MP3 player, as if those would quell the rising tide of anxiety. Notice a book doesn’t help at the ER waiting room, or on airplanes. It just reminds you that you want to go home, where better entertainment exists. Sure, the woman I’ve loved for 25 yrs will be there, giving me another opportunity to act like a ten yr-old, looking away and being silent, and making wonderful conversation like, "How are you? Oh, okay," and walking away. She’s, I think, one yr older than I am, and recently divorced (big plus), but as unapproachable as the planet Neptune. So I have that to look forward to. She’s always with her sister, too, and they tend to laugh silently with one another at my social ineptitude. Plus the inevitable dinner conversation, which will probably not involve any jokes I make about wombats, my cat, or Republicans … rather just embarrassed silence, as I wish I could say *anything* even remotely like the casual banter I make on Usenet. I can’t go there doped up on Klonopin and Haldol, because I *will* fall asleep, and as far as I know, there won’t be a nurse’s tent. This is going to suck. This will suck enough to leech the chrome off a trailer hitch. If anyone from ASAPM would like to go in my stead, I have an all-purpose Ian Disguise Kit I bought from Wile E. Coyote, who was unable to make use of it in catching the roadrunner. Help!!! There’s not enough medicine in the world to make this anything slightly better than a grating, mind-numbing, soul-sucking ordeal. Not looking forward to it, IOW. Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Ian, I don’t have very good suggestions for you except to either make up an excuse why you can’t attend and call her back, or don’t show up.  What would happen if you didn’t show up?  Probably nothing.  :-)  If you did go, you might have a good time listening to the music and other people’s conversations.  Are you in a position to take a taxi or bus home?  How about hopping a ride with someone there and then asking them to drop you back home early?  I’m trying to think of something for you.  :-)  Let us know if you go.  Anti-anxiety vibes being sent your way.  {{{{{Ian}}}}} Di

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I very luckily did not get invited to a wedding that’s taking place tomorrow, but unfortunately found that an excellent opportunity to complain. "Well *I* haven’t received an invitation." So my mom, equally indignant, or possibly knowing that I was bluffing, and just furthering her quest to make me uncomfortable, made sure that I got an invitation. At first I didn’t know what to say, because I had just been acting indignant over the whole thing, but eventually my true feelings came out, and I told her, "Well if I don’t receive an invitation by Friday, I’m free and clear." Knowing the full extent of my plans, my mom redoubled her efforts to get me invited, and sure enough, I got a phone call last night from the bride’s mother telling me I had the green light to go to the wedding. I pretended to be somewhat enthusiastic, but inwardly I was screaming things that would have made a sailor blush. Now I have to go to this wedding tomorrow, and it’s *not* close enough for me to walk home when the anxiety hits, as it will. It’s in the middle of nowhere, at a barn, and will probably lag on for hours, possibly weeks. Keep in mind, *we don’t have a car*. I will literally be trapped in this hellish barn for hours and hours, and probably won’t even be able to bring a book, or my MP3 player, as if those would quell the rising tide of anxiety. Notice a book doesn’t help at the ER waiting room, or on airplanes. It just reminds you that you want to go home, where better entertainment exists. Sure, the woman I’ve loved for 25 yrs will be there, giving me another opportunity to act like a ten yr-old, looking away and being silent, and making wonderful conversation like, "How are you? Oh, okay," and walking away. She’s, I think, one yr older than I am, and recently divorced (big plus), but as unapproachable as the planet Neptune. So I have that to look forward to. She’s always with her sister, too, and they tend to laugh silently with one another at my social ineptitude. Plus the inevitable dinner conversation, which will probably not involve any jokes I make about wombats, my cat, or Republicans … rather just embarrassed silence, as I wish I could say *anything* even remotely like the casual banter I make on Usenet. I can’t go there doped up on Klonopin and Haldol, because I *will* fall asleep, and as far as I know, there won’t be a nurse’s tent. This is going to suck. This will suck enough to leech the chrome off a trailer hitch. If anyone from ASAPM would like to go in my stead, I have an all-purpose Ian Disguise Kit I bought from Wile E. Coyote, who was unable to make use of it in catching the roadrunner. Help!!! There’s not enough medicine in the world to make this anything slightly better than a grating, mind-numbing, soul-sucking ordeal. Not looking forward to it, IOW. Ian

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I very luckily did not get invited to a wedding that’s taking place tomorrow, but unfortunately found that an excellent opportunity to complain. "Well *I* haven’t received an invitation." So my mom, equally indignant, or possibly knowing that I was bluffing, and just furthering her quest to make me uncomfortable, made sure that I got an invitation. At first I didn’t know what to say, because I had just been acting indignant over the whole thing, but eventually my true feelings came out, and I told her, "Well if I don’t receive an invitation by Friday, I’m free and clear." Knowing the full extent of my plans, my mom redoubled her efforts to get me invited, and sure enough, I got a phone call last night from the bride’s mother telling me I had the green light to go to the wedding. I pretended to be somewhat enthusiastic, but inwardly I was screaming things that would have made a sailor blush. Now I have to go to this wedding tomorrow, and it’s *not* close enough for me to walk home when the anxiety hits, as it will. It’s in the middle of nowhere, at a barn, and will probably lag on for hours, possibly weeks. Keep in mind, *we don’t have a car*. I will literally be trapped in this hellish barn for hours and hours, and probably won’t even be able to bring a book, or my MP3 player, as if those would quell the rising tide of anxiety. Notice a book doesn’t help at the ER waiting room, or on airplanes. It just reminds you that you want to go home, where better entertainment exists. Sure, the woman I’ve loved for 25 yrs will be there, giving me another opportunity to act like a ten yr-old, looking away and being silent, and making wonderful conversation like, "How are you? Oh, okay," and walking away. She’s, I think, one yr older than I am, and recently divorced (big plus), but as unapproachable as the planet Neptune. So I have that to look forward to. She’s always with her sister, too, and they tend to laugh silently with one another at my social ineptitude. Plus the inevitable dinner conversation, which will probably not involve any jokes I make about wombats, my cat, or Republicans … rather just embarrassed silence, as I wish I could say *anything* even remotely like the casual banter I make on Usenet. I can’t go there doped up on Klonopin and Haldol, because I *will* fall asleep, and as far as I know, there won’t be a nurse’s tent. This is going to suck. This will suck enough to leech the chrome off a trailer hitch. If anyone from ASAPM would like to go in my stead, I have an all-purpose Ian Disguise Kit I bought from Wile E. Coyote, who was unable to make use of it in catching the roadrunner. Help!!! There’s not enough medicine in the world to make this anything slightly better than a grating, mind-numbing, soul-sucking ordeal. Not looking forward to it, IOW. Ian

Listen carefully to my advice, because one should always listen carefully to the advice of dying people (cough):  DON’T GO.  Stay home and laugh devilishly at anything you please and DON’T GO. Everybody makes mistakes.  This is your opportunity NOT to make things weird for yourself.  Go get yourself a can of sterno and celebrate I’m serious — this is SO not important. Deirdre — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Anti-anxiety vibes being sent your way.  {{{{{Ian}}}}}

Thanks, Diane. The ride situation is dodgy at best. There was one couple who were going to take us, but they’re going in two carloads. The first is going about an hour before anything starts (huge anxiety), and the second will be a van full of kids (huge anxiety, and possibility of lawsuit for mass murder). The people who normally give us rides are probably not going to be able to, as it’s their daughter who’s getting married. The *other* people who give us rides are like aunt, uncle, cousin to the bride, plus that would mean a long ride with the Untouchable Woman. (Huge, huge anxiety.) I really don’t know how we’re getting down there. Not going is not an option at this point. My mom lobbied hard for me to be invited. She said, "You’d better bloody well go at this point, or there’ll be hell to pay." Not sure what kind of hell I’d have to pay, but it would seem strange to have had my mom acting for weeks as if I were dying to attend this event, and then me suddenly not showing up. The bride’s family must be puzzled. "Ian normally hates going to things like this. Why does he care?" It’s all my mom’s fault. She has them thinking I’m mortally offended at not receiving an invitation, which is my fault, for playing the "not invited" card, which is all part of the "the rest of the Baha’is don’t like us, Mom" game, which sometimes backfires, as it has now. Not much of a *fun* game, but one in which I can feel sorry for myself, so that’s good. I figure I can grit my teeth through it, and it is being catered, although that’s another problem, as the caterers are *delivering* the food, and the local Baha’is have to serve it, which means I might get roped in to *serving people*, which means talking to strangers, just walking up to them and saying, "Excuse me, would you like fish or tabouli?" or something, and then having a panic attack and hiding in the bathroom, or rather port-a-potty, as this is a barn. On the plus side, Baha’is don’t drink, so there won’t be booze there, on the … subtraction side, Baha’is generally don’t smoke, so everyone will hate me for smoking. I’ll have to literally go behind the barn to smoke. No matter what, everyone’s going to hate me after this. I already hate myself. I loathe what I’m going to act like tomorrow, which is sort of a cross between Rain Man and Ellen. Thank you for the vibes. I will carry them with me, and use them to hit people over the head who try to engage me in conversation. :-/ Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I very luckily did not get invited to a wedding that’s taking place tomorrow, but unfortunately found that an excellent opportunity to complain. "Well *I* haven’t received an invitation." So my mom, equally indignant, or possibly knowing that I was bluffing, and just furthering her quest to make me uncomfortable, made sure that I got an invitation. At first I didn’t know what to say, because I had just been acting indignant over the whole thing, but eventually my true feelings came out, and I told her, "Well if I don’t receive an invitation by Friday, I’m free and clear." Knowing the full extent of my plans, my mom redoubled her efforts to get me invited, and sure enough, I got a phone call last night from the bride’s mother telling me I had the green light to go to the wedding. I pretended to be somewhat enthusiastic, but inwardly I was screaming things that would have made a sailor blush. Now I have to go to this wedding tomorrow, and it’s *not* close enough for me to walk home when the anxiety hits, as it will. It’s in the middle of nowhere, at a barn, and will probably lag on for hours, possibly weeks. Keep in mind, *we don’t have a car*. I will literally be trapped in this hellish barn for hours and hours, and probably won’t even be able to bring a book, or my MP3 player, as if those would quell the rising tide of anxiety. Notice a book doesn’t help at the ER waiting room, or on airplanes. It just reminds you that you want to go home, where better entertainment exists. Sure, the woman I’ve loved for 25 yrs will be there, giving me another opportunity to act like a ten yr-old, looking away and being silent, and making wonderful conversation like, "How are you? Oh, okay," and walking away. She’s, I think, one yr older than I am, and recently divorced (big plus), but as unapproachable as the planet Neptune. So I have that to look forward to. She’s always with her sister, too, and they tend to laugh silently with one another at my social ineptitude. Plus the inevitable dinner conversation, which will probably not involve any jokes I make about wombats, my cat, or Republicans … rather just embarrassed silence, as I wish I could say *anything* even remotely like the casual banter I make on Usenet. I can’t go there doped up on Klonopin and Haldol, because I *will* fall asleep, and as far as I know, there won’t be a nurse’s tent. This is going to suck. This will suck enough to leech the chrome off a trailer hitch. If anyone from ASAPM would like to go in my stead, I have an all-purpose Ian Disguise Kit I bought from Wile E. Coyote, who was unable to make use of it in catching the roadrunner. Help!!! There’s not enough medicine in the world to make this anything slightly better than a grating, mind-numbing, soul-sucking ordeal. Not looking forward to it, IOW. Ian —

Ian, as far as I am concerned, easy answer.  Don’t go.  If it is making you crazy do not go.  If people do not understand, who cares?  Don’t try to do something you feel you cannot do.  I know that feeling.  It is better to send apologies and deal with what is on your plate.  At some time you will have to go somewhere but I am sure no one will be angry with you about this. Love, Vicki — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anti-anxiety vibes being sent your way.  {{{{{Ian}}}}} Thanks, Diane. The ride situation is dodgy at best. There was one couple who were going to take us, but they’re going in two carloads. The first is going about an hour before anything starts (huge anxiety), and the second will be a van full of kids (huge anxiety, and possibility of lawsuit for mass murder). The people who normally give us rides are probably not going to be able to, as it’s their daughter who’s getting married. The *other* people who give us rides are like aunt, uncle, cousin to the bride, plus that would mean a long ride with the Untouchable Woman. (Huge, huge anxiety.) I really don’t know how we’re getting down there. Not going is not an option at this point. My mom lobbied hard for me to be invited. She said, "You’d better bloody well go at this point, or there’ll be hell to pay." Not sure what kind of hell I’d have to pay, but it would seem strange to have had my mom acting for weeks as if I were dying to attend this event, and then me suddenly not showing up. The bride’s family must be puzzled. "Ian normally hates going to things like this. Why does he care?" It’s all my mom’s fault. She has them thinking I’m mortally offended at not receiving an invitation, which is my fault, for playing the "not invited" card, which is all part of the "the rest of the Baha’is don’t like us, Mom" game, which sometimes backfires, as it has now. Not much of a *fun* game, but one in which I can feel sorry for myself, so that’s good. I figure I can grit my teeth through it, and it is being catered, although that’s another problem, as the caterers are *delivering* the food, and the local Baha’is have to serve it, which means I might get roped in to *serving people*, which means talking to strangers, just walking up to them and saying, "Excuse me, would you like fish or tabouli?" or something, and then having a panic attack and hiding in the bathroom, or rather port-a-potty, as this is a barn. On the plus side, Baha’is don’t drink, so there won’t be booze there, on the … subtraction side, Baha’is generally don’t smoke, so everyone will hate me for smoking. I’ll have to literally go behind the barn to smoke. No matter what, everyone’s going to hate me after this. I already hate myself. I loathe what I’m going to act like tomorrow, which is sort of a cross between Rain Man and Ellen. Thank you for the vibes. I will carry them with me, and use them to hit people over the head who try to engage me in conversation. :-/ Ian —

Take the hell.  Your mom cannot voodoo you, Ian!!!  Do what you have to do. Vicki — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Make this into something other than what it is. Be creative. Or not. Maybe you should just not go at all.  It’s getting complicated.

Yes, the logistics of this thing are already a nightmare. Should I wear my "Piss Off" t-shirt, or something more appropriate, like "I went to a wedding in a barn, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" t-shirt. I should bring Tennis Ball. If anyone tries to engage me in conversation, I should just fling her in their face, to which she will attach with all four paws. By the time the ambulance arrives, I can safely sneak away. Of course she’ll be there with her "La Dolce Vita" sunglasses, her oversized film magazine, and her bon bons. I think that’s the secret. Bring my cat. She has claws, and a piss-off attitude that would work perfectly here. Really, I laugh about it, but it’s going to be horrible. I know that’s catastrophic thinking, but if this doesn’t qualify as a catastrophe, I don’t know what does … aside from actual catastrophes. Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Why don’t you plant a big one on the love of your life when you see her? Just walk up and give her one of those big-screen type kisses.  That should set the tone for the night

Oh you married people. You probably forget how difficult it was to get married in the first place. The tone for the night? It would be a death dirge of despair, and other alliterations as well. It’s not that I *want* to be like this. The last time I saw her I didn’t plan out ahead of time, "I’m going to completely ignore her, and inwardly die." It just sort of played out that way. <sigh If only we could email each other, it would be fine. It’s that damn talking that gets me. The only real thing I have on my side is that her last marriage, to the rich doctor, didn’t work out, so maybe she’ll look for his complete opposite, the poor disabled sleeping guy. Ya never know! Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I very luckily did not get invited to a wedding that’s taking place tomorrow, but unfortunately found that an excellent opportunity to complain. "Well *I* haven’t received an invitation." So my mom, equally indignant, or possibly knowing that I was bluffing, and just furthering her quest to make me uncomfortable, made sure that I got an invitation. At first I didn’t know what to say, because I had just been acting indignant over the whole thing, but eventually my true feelings came out, and I told her, "Well if I don’t receive an invitation by Friday, I’m free and clear." Knowing the full extent of my plans, my mom redoubled her efforts to get me invited, and sure enough, I got a phone call last night from the bride’s mother telling me I had the green light to go to the wedding. I pretended to be somewhat enthusiastic, but inwardly I was screaming things that would have made a sailor blush. Now I have to go to this wedding tomorrow, and it’s *not* close enough for me to walk home when the anxiety hits, as it will. It’s in the middle of nowhere, at a barn, and will probably lag on for hours, possibly weeks. Keep in mind, *we don’t have a car*. I will literally be trapped in this hellish barn for hours and hours, and probably won’t even be able to bring a book, or my MP3 player, as if those would quell the rising tide of anxiety. Notice a book doesn’t help at the ER waiting room, or on airplanes. It just reminds you that you want to go home, where better entertainment exists. Sure, the woman I’ve loved for 25 yrs will be there, giving me another opportunity to act like a ten yr-old, looking away and being silent, and making wonderful conversation like, "How are you? Oh, okay," and walking away. She’s, I think, one yr older than I am, and recently divorced (big plus), but as unapproachable as the planet Neptune. So I have that to look forward to. She’s always with her sister, too, and they tend to laugh silently with one another at my social ineptitude. Plus the inevitable dinner conversation, which will probably not involve any jokes I make about wombats, my cat, or Republicans … rather just embarrassed silence, as I wish I could say *anything* even remotely like the casual banter I make on Usenet. I can’t go there doped up on Klonopin and Haldol, because I *will* fall asleep, and as far as I know, there won’t be a nurse’s tent. This is going to suck. This will suck enough to leech the chrome off a trailer hitch. If anyone from ASAPM would like to go in my stead, I have an all-purpose Ian Disguise Kit I bought from Wile E. Coyote, who was unable to make use of it in catching the roadrunner. Help!!! There’s not enough medicine in the world to make this anything slightly better than a grating, mind-numbing, soul-sucking ordeal. Not looking forward to it, IOW. Ian

Playing those card games can be tricky.  As the great Kenny Rogers said, "you gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em". I was going to suggest you don’t go, but reading the other posts that doesn’t seem like an option.  Exactly how far is this barn-wedding?  If it were me, I would just try to find someone who could drive me home early. Take a little extra Klonopin.  Not enough to make you very sleepy, just a little extra to help with any extra anxiety. Why don’t you plant a big one on the love of your life when you see her?  Just walk up and give her one of those big-screen type kisses.  That should set the tone for the night Jim — You roll an 18 in Dex and see if you don’t end up with a girlfriend JimD Central FL, USA, Earth, Sol — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – DON’T GO.  Stay home and laugh devilishly at anything you please and DON’T GO. Oh dying one, I wish it were so. Even the old, "I’m disabled. Look, I have a badger on my head," line won’t work, because as my mom slowly becomes more and more insane, I’m supposed to be the less-insane one, thereby winning support for my point of view, which is, basically, that my mom is insane. Everyone is like, "Oh, that Ian. We misunderstood him for so long, and now we know his mother is a lunatic, and he was right all along." Now they’ll be like, "Maybe Ian *is* wrong, and we should agree with his mom from now on," thereby undoing years of work. I hate my family, I really do. I just treated my mom to Chinese food, and she was in a terrible mood. I told her she needed to laugh, and tried endless jokes, but she finally told me, "I’m not your laughing hyena, to perform tricks for you." Sort of an, "Uh, what?" kind of comment. Her friend Willie was there, who is always collecting pop tops off of soda cans for the Ronald McDonald House, and she said, "If Willie comes over here to get my pop top I’m going to tell her to go away. I feel like I’m being raped every time she does that. It’s such an invasion of privacy." Another, "Uh, what?" comment. So there was a lot of that, and another reassurance that I absolutely had to go to this thing, or I would be publicly stoned. Not that I haven’t been publicly stoned before, but in a different manner, more of a "Hee hee, I’m stoned, and no one knows", sort of thing. Oh, help me. I know you’re both saying, "Just don’t go." I wish that were an option. I don’t want people to hate me, but they just do. I can’t control it. I’m this big, lumbering guy, who always stares at wimmen longingly, like over a vast gulf, makes terrible conversation, and hogs all the BBQ meatballs at weddings. I just want to hide in a box and drink sterno with Tennis Ball. Very likely I’ll just grit my teeth and get it over with, and come back and complain to you all in my normal voice. <sigh Ian

Okay, you do that. I am looking forward to a hilarious accounting of this terrible event. Let me tell you why I’m not all gooey with sympathy. I actually am all gooey with *empathy*. I’m the big lumbering *girl* etc… it’s a shame I can’t go to this thing with you so we can get ALL the meatballs.  If the bridal couple is particularly attractive I could cough on them. Just a thought. They don’t really hate you. Maybe they just don’t ‘get’ you. You could think of this as a combination smiling-practice thing, and doing the research necessary for the hilarious accounting of the terrible event. By the way:  hyena? poptops? Maybe you could dress your Mom up as you and send her to this thing. Hey I just had an idea — first thing when you get there, scope out the area and find a place to sit and take mental notes.  Or actual notes, if you have a small notebook. Don’t forget to take sunglasses. Mystery is good. But what the heck do I know?  I’m the one who tries hard to be eccentric at things like this so people will leave me alone, and I end up exchanging tuna casserole recipes with the girls in the kitchen.  I hate that. Make this into something other than what it is. Be creative. Or not. Maybe you should just not go at all.  It’s getting complicated. Deirdre — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I have a fever. Ignore me.

Oh, you’re okay, Deirdre. Just drink a bottle of NyQuil and wake up next Thursday. Nothing like sleep therapy. Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

DON’T GO.  Stay home and laugh devilishly at anything you please and DON’T GO.

Oh dying one, I wish it were so. Even the old, "I’m disabled. Look, I have a badger on my head," line won’t work, because as my mom slowly becomes more and more insane, I’m supposed to be the less-insane one, thereby winning support for my point of view, which is, basically, that my mom is insane. Everyone is like, "Oh, that Ian. We misunderstood him for so long, and now we know his mother is a lunatic, and he was right all along." Now they’ll be like, "Maybe Ian *is* wrong, and we should agree with his mom from now on," thereby undoing years of work. I hate my family, I really do. I just treated my mom to Chinese food, and she was in a terrible mood. I told her she needed to laugh, and tried endless jokes, but she finally told me, "I’m not your laughing hyena, to perform tricks for you." Sort of an, "Uh, what?" kind of comment. Her friend Willie was there, who is always collecting pop tops off of soda cans for the Ronald McDonald House, and she said, "If Willie comes over here to get my pop top I’m going to tell her to go away. I feel like I’m being raped every time she does that. It’s such an invasion of privacy." Another, "Uh, what?" comment. So there was a lot of that, and another reassurance that I absolutely had to go to this thing, or I would be publicly stoned. Not that I haven’t been publicly stoned before, but in a different manner, more of a "Hee hee, I’m stoned, and no one knows", sort of thing. Oh, help me. I know you’re both saying, "Just don’t go." I wish that were an option. I don’t want people to hate me, but they just do. I can’t control it. I’m this big, lumbering guy, who always stares at wimmen longingly, like over a vast gulf, makes terrible conversation, and hogs all the BBQ meatballs at weddings. I just want to hide in a box and drink sterno with Tennis Ball. Very likely I’ll just grit my teeth and get it over with, and come back and complain to you all in my normal voice. <sigh Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Let us know how this went, okay.  {{{{{Ian}}}}}

Oh, believe me, I will, if I’m alive, and not wildly screaming. Well, even if I’m wildly screaming, I should be able to hammer out a post. (Oh my goodness, how I dread this horrible event. To think that people are going there of their own free will….) Ian — http://sundry.ws/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I meant something much more support-group-like, I’m sure.  I have a fever. Ignore me. Deirdre — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I’m so sorry you can’t get out of this, Ian.  Hoping a taxi home when you’re ready will help.  Let us know how this went, okay.  {{{{{Ian}}}}} Di

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anti-anxiety vibes being sent your way.  {{{{{Ian}}}}} Thanks, Diane. The ride situation is dodgy at best. There was one couple who were going to take us, but they’re going in two carloads. The first is going about an hour before anything starts (huge anxiety), and the second will be a van full of kids (huge anxiety, and possibility of lawsuit for mass murder). The people who normally give us rides are probably not going to be able to, as it’s their daughter who’s getting married. The *other* people who give us rides are like aunt, uncle, cousin to the bride, plus that would mean a long ride with the Untouchable Woman. (Huge, huge anxiety.) I really don’t know how we’re getting down there. Not going is not an option at this point. My mom lobbied hard for me to be invited. She said, "You’d better bloody well go at this point, or there’ll be hell to pay." Not sure what kind of hell I’d have to pay, but it would seem strange to have had my mom acting for weeks as if I were dying to attend this event, and then me suddenly not showing up. The bride’s family must be puzzled. "Ian normally hates going to things like this. Why does he care?" It’s all my mom’s fault. She has them thinking I’m mortally offended at not receiving an invitation, which is my fault, for playing the "not invited" card, which is all part of the "the rest of the Baha’is don’t like us, Mom" game, which sometimes backfires, as it has now. Not much of a *fun* game, but one in which I can feel sorry for myself, so that’s good. I figure I can grit my teeth through it, and it is being catered, although that’s another problem, as the caterers are *delivering* the food, and the local Baha’is have to serve it, which means I might get roped in to *serving people*, which means talking to strangers, just walking up to them and saying, "Excuse me, would you like fish or tabouli?" or something, and then having a panic attack and hiding in the bathroom, or rather port-a-potty, as this is a barn. On the plus side, Baha’is don’t drink, so there won’t be booze there, on the … subtraction side, Baha’is generally don’t smoke, so everyone will hate me for smoking. I’ll have to literally go behind the barn to smoke. No matter what, everyone’s going to hate me after this. I already hate myself. I loathe what I’m going to act like tomorrow, which is sort of a cross between Rain Man and Ellen. Thank you for the vibes. I will carry them with me, and use them to hit people over the head who try to engage me in conversation. :-/ Ian

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

I’ll bet you were an altar boy when you were young. Did jesus save you when he came in your ass or your mouth? hehehe Oh, and those "traits" you speak of? They were written my men who wanted power over the sheep that were all too willing to follow them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV

Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Okay, Life’s a Bitch. So fucking what? Get over it. And, get on with it. Or, get the fuck out!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV You want me to give up fornication for longsuffering? Are you an idiot? T9W

He is the equivelent of a babbling creek. Only, a creek actually has something worth babbling about. Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Okay, Life’s a Bitch. So fucking what? Get over it. And, get on with it. Or, get the fuck out!

Response:

Because it was all made up by the other apostles for the sole purpose of enhancing the importance their own roles in the affair. Importance which otherwise would have counted for naught. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not even the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses.  Nothing in the Bible regarding the life and teachings of Jesus is an eyewitness accounting, as it was all written at least a generation or two after the fact, and Paul’s writings came first. Paul’s epistles are by far the oldest and are possibly the derived from the originals, yet he never mentions the virgin birth, the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord’s Prayer, the Parable of the Prodigal Sopn, the Good Samaritan or any of the miracles that have become intrinsic parts of Christian beliefs. Vas.

Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Okay, Life’s a Bitch. So fucking what? Get over it. And, get on with it. Or, get the fuck out!

Response:

Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Your opinion matters! It just doesn’t matter to me.

i said that to an irc accquaintance once except i said, "i respect your right to have an opinion, but i don’t respect your opinion." i’m not sure which wording i like best.. i think it would have to be dependant on the situation.. peace, bogsnarth (currently concieving a song called "Jesus Loves Me.. too hard")

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV Well, no, acutally, I quite enjoy fornication, lewdness, sorcery, drunkenness and revelries, to be

honest.  Moreover, my house is full of idols that all get their turn at offerings at appropriate times. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And now, a little something for you xtians who post to non-xtian newsgroups hoping to "save" us: Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. (Proverbs 16:18) And how about Don’t you look at me so smug and say I’m going bad. Who are you to judge me, and the life I live? I know that I’m not perfect And that I don’t claim to be So, before you point your finger Make sure your hands are clean. Bob Marley (Romans 14:4) You know, I suspect that most of the individuals who post such stuff are very young, have had a

recent conversion, and are enthusiastic about "spreading the word" to the rest of the world.  But think about this for a while; we’ve already heard it, and are not interested in hearing it any more. Wait ’til you’re a little older and have lived life before you start trying to tell others how they should live. Old Wolf

i agree except that i don’t think they have to be young.. that whole "being reborn" thing tends to make some people function on the verbal level of a child… like when my friends and i used to have philosophical discussions on the play ground.. "god is up and the devil is down.. hell is down there.. *points* you go there if you’re bad.. heaven is up there *points* that’s where gramma and sparky are…" but to be fair, i think the following song has a good point about "those types" as well: "Happy Guy" by NOFX (a band who has a self-descriptive album title, "white trash, two heebs, and a bean." the members of the band are 1 long haired white guy, 2 jewish guys from the suburbs, and a mexican. put that in your PC(p) pipe and smoke it..) he’s just a man getting through life the best he can he’s not a scientist, he programs a computer before that he sold cars to pay a student loan now he recieves pity from his family — his friends say how could he turn his back on reason worshipping a god finding truth through fear and mind control he’s just a man trying to explain how he found the word of god could make life seem less insane so he shares what he’s read, what he understands, it makes sense to him, it makes perfect sense to him, in fact he’s never seen so clearly turned his back on free will — has he lost his mind? he’d rather kneel down than take charge of his life and he knows what people think, but it doesn’t sway him he can read the writing on the wall cause he knows how people treat, how they treat eachother a sacrifice to benefit the all don’t try to judge him, his theologian ideals his hopes may be false but his happiness is real don’t try to judge him, he’s just a man. — foot note: NOFX is a band that’s very easy to interpret as sarcastic.. what happens when you try to interpret them as earnest and forthright? peace, bogsnarth ( m/ punk rawk #50926923)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV

You want me to give up fornication for longsuffering? Are you an idiot? T9W

Response:

Not even the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses.  Nothing in the Bible regarding the life and teachings of Jesus is an eyewitness accounting, as it was all written at least a generation or two after the fact, and Paul’s writings came first.

Paul’s epistles are by far the oldest and are possibly the derived from the originals, yet he never mentions the virgin birth, the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord’s Prayer, the Parable of the Prodigal Sopn, the Good Samaritan or any of the miracles that have become intrinsic parts of Christian beliefs. Vas.

Response:

Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god."

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                             Re: Jesus Loves You!   Organization: http://groups.google.com/   Newsgroups:          [2] alt.pagan,          [3] alt.religion.wicca,          [4] alt.discordia   Followup to: [5] newsgroup(s)   References: Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god."

***ahhh what the Bible and your interp of it tells you ..you mean? "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]?

***longsuffering seems ridiculous and hey…throw in pleasure and I’m in. *NKJV

IN my opinion Brenda

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*). These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*). Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]? *NKJV

Well, no, acutally, I quite enjoy fornication, lewdness, sorcery, drunkenness and revelries, to be honest.  Moreover, my house is full of idols that all get their turn at offerings at appropriate times. And now, a little something for you xtians who post to non-xtian newsgroups hoping to "save" us: Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. (Proverbs 16:18) And how about Don’t you look at me so smug and say I’m going bad. Who are you to judge me, and the life I live? I know that I’m not perfect And that I don’t claim to be So, before you point your finger Make sure your hands are clean. Bob Marley (Romans 14:4) You know, I suspect that most of the individuals who post such stuff are very young, have had a recent conversion, and are enthusiastic about "spreading the word" to the rest of the world.  But think about this for a while; we’ve already heard it, and are not interested in hearing it any more.  Wait ’til you’re a little older and have lived life before you start trying to tell others how they should live. Old Wolf

Response:

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,  drunkenness, revelries, and the like;" (Gal 5:19-21*).

Good one, ’cause I can name countless Christians of my acquaintance who still indulge in just about all of these. "…character traits that God saves us from" indeed. These are the traits His Holy Spirit inspires us with: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" (Gal 5:22,23*).

And I could list many pagans and non-Christians of many religions of my acquaintaince who embody all of these. Wouldn’t you prefer the fruit of the Spirit [His will]?

"His will", huh?  What about humans having free will?  Do we or don’t we choose our own paths through this world?  Is everything that happens all part of "God’s great plan for mankind", in which case I know quite a few people who would like to have a nice long discussion with him about the events of the morning of September 11, 2001, or do humans make their own decisions and mistakes without any supernatural interference?  I’ve been waiting for a Christian to give me a straight answer to that one; the few I’ve had this discussion with recently never answered it but danced around it quite nicely. Blessings, Songweaver

Response:

So, when you go to bed at night, do you dream of jesus fucking you in the ass, telling you since you let him cum in your ass you’re now saved? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The disciples were not instructed to ask permission unless they were caught. "Borrowing" something without asking permission first is theft. I know your not gonna like my response…but here goes: "For every beast of the forest is Mine [God's], And the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps 50:10). God created everything, so the donkey belongs to Him. They didn’t record it. Matthew did. That’s what the "Matt" means in the reference. Matthew recorded the soldiers’ lie about Christ’s disciples stealing His body. According to you, Josephus was not alive. What were his references other than the bible? Those who witnessed the resurrection and believe in Christ incorperated the story into books that became known as the NT.  The soldiers who witnessed the resurrection created helped spread the lie so that history also claims He never rose from the dead.  Josephus, though neither an eyewitness nor a Christian, believed from his open-minded style of recording history that Jesus had indeed been raised from the dead.

Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Your opinion matters! It just doesn’t matter to me.

Response:

Thanks for sharing that with me.  I never heard that theory before. I’ll check it out.

Response:

Most people already do the will of "god." They live in fear and ignorance, and occassionally in a so-called "enlightened" state…all which is the prime objective of "god" so as to keep them in nearly unbreakable bonds of slavery and darkness. That is the will of "god." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He also sent his disciples to steal for him. The owner of the donkey would have lent it if he were there when His disciples borrowed it. I know from personal experience to turn of the electric before replacing an outlet. What is your point. My point is that it is possible to overcome the lusts of the flesh that have a tendency to pull our desires away from doing the will of God.  People can learn to enjoy a more healthful style of living, as Christ had planned for people. Jesus doesn’t want anything, he’s fucking dead, and all your "he’s  coming back" won’t change that. Would His disciples die for the Gospel of Jesus if they believed He was still in the tomb? Believing he is not in the tomb is irrelevant. History records his death, but nobody but his friends noticed his "resurrection". The other people to record Jesus’ ressurection were the soldiers who guarded the tomb.  They might have been killed for not keeping watch over the tomb.  History records their way out of death: "Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, "Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure." 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day." Matt 28:11-15  Josephus, a Jewish historian was hated by his fellow Jews for providing an accurate account of Christ’s resurrection. Prove it accurate, please. "Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities of the Jews book 18 chapter 3, William Whiston translation, The Complete Works of Josephus, Kregal Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1981, p. 379). http://www.creatingfutures.net/resurrection.html God’s gift is your choice to accept.  Think carefully when choosing what you wish to do with your life. Then why do you want to shove it down our throats? Make you a deal, if I want it, I’ll come to alt.christian.sheeple, okay? I’m so happy about what Jesus has done for us that I can’t contain this blessed truth to myself.

Gargoyle – _~~~~~ Your opinion matters! It just doesn’t matter to me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities of the Jews book 18 chapter 3, William Whiston translation, The Complete Works of Josephus, Kregal Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1981, p. 379). According to you, Josephus was not alive. What were his references other than the bible?

Not even the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses.  Nothing in the Bible regarding the life and teachings of Jesus is an eyewitness accounting, as it was all written at least a generation or two after the fact, and Paul’s writings came first. The only evidence anyone has that a person called Jesus ever lived is the Bible, and that’s not even a complete volume of all the writings of the original people who called themselves "Christian".  The Gnostic writings were completely left out when the "official" Bible was put together, and they approach it in a very different manner, to the point that other "Christians" called them heretics and killed them. Nice… Blessings, Songweaver

Response:

The disciples were not instructed to ask permission unless they were caught. "Borrowing" something without asking permission first is theft.

I know your not gonna like my response…but here goes: "For every beast of the forest is Mine [God's], And the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps 50:10). God created everything, so the donkey belongs to Him. They didn’t record it. Matthew did. That’s what the "Matt" means in the reference.

Matthew recorded the soldiers’ lie about Christ’s disciples stealing His body. According to you, Josephus was not alive. What were his references other than the bible?

Those who witnessed the resurrection and believe in Christ incorperated the story into books that became known as the NT.  The soldiers who witnessed the resurrection created helped spread the lie so that history also claims He never rose from the dead.  Josephus, though neither an eyewitness nor a Christian, believed from his open-minded style of recording history that Jesus had indeed been raised from the dead.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The disciples were not instructed to ask permission unless they were caught. "Borrowing" something without asking permission first is theft. I know your not gonna like my response…but here goes: "For every beast of the forest is Mine [God's], And the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps 50:10). God created everything, so the donkey belongs to Him. They didn’t record it. Matthew did. That’s what the "Matt" means in the reference. Matthew recorded the soldiers’ lie about Christ’s disciples stealing His body. According to you, Josephus was not alive. What were his references other than the bible? Those who witnessed the resurrection and believe in Christ incorperated the story into books that became known as the NT.  The soldiers who witnessed the resurrection created helped spread the lie so that history also claims He never rose from the dead.  Josephus, though neither an eyewitness nor a Christian, believed from his open-minded style of recording history that Jesus had indeed been raised from the dead.

*I hate to do this to you because i admire you for continuing to "witness" your faith in a pagan NG. But, it is widely accepted amongst NT Scholars that the references to Jesus in Jospehus were added at a much later date by Christian scribes.

Response:

He also sent his disciples to steal for him.

The owner of the donkey would have lent it if he were there when His disciples borrowed it. I know from personal experience to turn of the electric before replacing an outlet. What is your point.

My point is that it is possible to overcome the lusts of the flesh that have a tendency to pull our desires away from doing the will of God.  People can learn to enjoy a more healthful style of living, as Christ had planned for people. Jesus doesn’t want anything, he’s fucking dead, and all your "he’s  coming back" won’t change that. Would His disciples die for the Gospel of Jesus if they believed He was still in the tomb? Believing he is not in the tomb is irrelevant. History records his death, but nobody but his friends noticed his "resurrection".

The other people to record Jesus’ ressurection were the soldiers who guarded the tomb.  They might have been killed for not keeping watch over the tomb.  History records their way out of death: "Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, "Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure." 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day." Matt 28:11-15  Josephus, a Jewish historian was hated by his fellow Jews for providing an accurate account of Christ’s resurrection. Prove it accurate, please.

"Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities of the Jews book 18 chapter 3, William Whiston translation, The Complete Works of Josephus, Kregal Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1981, p. 379). http://www.creatingfutures.net/resurrection.html God’s gift is your choice to accept.  Think carefully when choosing what you wish to do with your life. Then why do you want to shove it down our throats? Make you a deal, if I want it, I’ll come to alt.christian.sheeple, okay?

I’m so happy about what Jesus has done for us that I can’t contain this blessed truth to myself.

Response:

He also sent his disciples to steal for him. The owner of the donkey would have lent it if he were there when His disciples borrowed it.

The disciples were not instructed to ask permission unless they were caught. "Borrowing" something without asking permission first is theft. I know from personal experience to turn of the electric before replacing an outlet. What is your point. My point is that it is possible to overcome the lusts of the flesh that have a tendency to pull our desires away from doing the will of God.  People can learn to enjoy a more healthful style of living, as Christ had planned for people.

Pagans generally have a very healthful style of living. Jesus doesn’t want anything, he’s fucking dead, and all your "he’s  coming back" won’t change that. Would His disciples die for the Gospel of Jesus if they believed He was still in the tomb? Believing he is not in the tomb is irrelevant. History records his death, but nobody but his friends noticed his "resurrection". The other people to record Jesus’ ressurection were the soldiers who guarded the tomb.  They might have been killed for not keeping watch over the tomb.  History records their way out of death:

They didn’t record it. Matthew did. "Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, "Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure." 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day." Matt 28:11-15

That’s what the "Matt" means in the reference. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Josephus, a Jewish historian was hated by his fellow Jews for providing an accurate account of Christ’s resurrection. Prove it accurate, please. "Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again at the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities of the Jews book 18 chapter 3, William Whiston translation, The Complete Works of Josephus, Kregal Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1981, p. 379).

According to you, Josephus was not alive. What were his references other than the bible? http://www.creatingfutures.net/resurrection.html God’s gift is your choice to accept.  Think carefully when choosing what you wish to do with your life. Then why do you want to shove it down our throats? Make you a deal, if I want it, I’ll come to alt.christian.sheeple, okay? I’m so happy about what Jesus has done for us that I can’t contain this blessed truth to myself.

Please control yourself. Don’t call us….etc. T9W

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes you! If only you knew how much Jesus Loved you…….he was tortured and crucified to save your miserabale souls. Actually, he was just into that kind of thing. The only reason he is remembered for it, is that he made up a pretty good excuse. KING KONG DIED FOR YOUR SINS. but, I’m all for sin, so what the fuck. He understands why you are rebelling against Him though. He knows you had a rough childhood playing Dungeons and Dragons and

actually, I wassa playing… cowboy and indians…. up ’till I was 25….always was the indian….liked to tie young pale- face female up to da stake….screw the boy scouts, I knew MO knots than most eagle scouts did by the time I was 14…. [**sighs....  in the rememberance of learning the complexities of the french bowline and that oh-so lovely cuff knot.....** ] now? NOW?  ohhhh…. I’m just a run of the mill Dominant with a prolivity for electrical play and posessing the tendency to implement pleasure/pain techniques on the spread-eagled bound (and often gagged ) female adventurist… gurdjieff 0f gormorrah

Response:

Actually, he was just into that kind of thing. The only reason he is remembered for it, is that he made up a pretty good excuse. Jesus wants His children to have a great life. "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly" (John 10:10).

…..and when thee wives have their periods, they must sleep in the barn. (direct quote from "God" there) KING KONG DIED FOR YOUR SINS. but, I’m all for sin, so what the fuck. The Holy Spirit has the power to change your life, and you desires.  I know from personal experience.

Sure it does- he’s very jealous and petty I hear tell. Jesus doesn’t want anything, he’s fucking dead, and all your "he’s coming back" won’t change that. Would His disciples die for the Gospel of Jesus if they believed He was still in the tomb?  Josephus, a Jewish historian was hated by his fellow Jews for providing an accurate account of Christ’s resurrection.

Did ya know that according to the "Bible" you will burn in hell if you play football? I wonder if God wears a tin foil hat? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you people have any living people that support your views, or do you just hoist your religion on those dead, and therefore unable to tell you how stupid you are. Placing a curse on your so-called God now? I will say a ‘prayer’ for you as well. May the next sheep not be as contagious as the last, and may the syphilis that has crossed your bloodbrain barier not make you any more of a babbling idiot than it already has. KING KONG DIED FOR YOUR SINS! but, I’m not sure if he was for or against them… God’s gift is your choice to accept.  Think carefully when choosing what you wish to do with your life.

Yes, cause he’s quite jealous ya know. If he catches you looking at another guy, look out!! ^..^<  kat

"Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil, and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well." – Missy Dizick

Response:

Actually, he was just into that kind of thing. The only reason he is remembered for it, is that he made up a pretty good excuse. Jesus wants His children to have a great life. "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). He also sent his disciples to steal for him.

and they were all on drugs… eating the fallen chaff of the wheat, indeed! we all know that fermented rye grain produces ergot which can be manufactured into LSD. of course LSD wasn’t actually discovered/invented until much later, but ergot has some very potent hallucinogenic properties on its own! JESUS NEVER WALKED ON WATER, HE JUST PLAYED A JOKE ON ALL HIS TRIPPING FRIENDS! (sorry i just had to take part in the "Typing Things in Caps" game) KING KONG DIED FOR YOUR SINS. but, I’m all for sin, so what the fuck. The Holy Spirit has the power to change your life, and you desires.  I know from personal experience. I know from personal experience to turn of the electric before replacing an outlet. What is your point.

i know from personal experience not to stick paper clips into an electrical outlet. i certainly felt *Something* move through me that day, but i don’t know if i would call it Holy.. i have felt the power of the Holy Voltage! AMEN! Jesus doesn’t want anything, he’s fucking dead, and all your "he’s coming back" won’t change that. Would His disciples die for the Gospel of Jesus if they believed He was still in the tomb? Believing he is not in the tomb is irrelevant. History records his death, but nobody but his friends noticed his "resurrection".

in this case, i think Jesus pre-empted Machiavelli. what better way to get more followers AND get your enemies off your back at the same time? i don’t know about you, but i’d do just about anything to get some time alone with Mary Magdelene without any "interruptions" from my friends.. *wiggles an eyebrow suggestively*  Josephus, a Jewish historian was hated by his fellow Jews for providing an accurate account of Christ’s resurrection. Prove it accurate, please.

since we have not (to my knowledge) invented or discovered time travel yet, i see no way of testing this statement, and therefore any speculations on the subject remain merely speculations and should probably not be given the weight of Absolute Metaphysical Certitude. that being said i think he was taken back to his People on the planet Nerktwaft (yes, Nerktwaft.. got a problem with the name? take it up with the Nerktwaftian people, bub.) which appeared to the people who were preset as him "ascending to the throne of heaven." people sound funny when they don’t have accurate language to describe their experiences, hence the whole "Ressurrection and Ascension" story. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you people have any living people that support your views, or do you just hoist your religion on those dead, and therefore unable to tell you how stupid you are. Placing a curse on your so-called God now? I will say a ‘prayer’ for you as well. May the next sheep not be as contagious as the last, and may the syphilis that has crossed your bloodbrain barier not make you any more of a babbling idiot than it already has. KING KONG DIED FOR YOUR SINS! but, I’m not sure if he was for or against them… God’s gift is your choice to accept.  Think carefully when choosing what you wish to do with your life.

is there a Returns counter? God’s gift doesn’t fit very well, and i’m hoping i can trade it in towards the purchase of a PS2… man those things are awesome. peace, bogsnarth — B

Question:

Why do so many companies drop out of ABC?

Response:

 Why do so many companies drop out of ABC?

Because they really don’t want transparency and prefer muddling through. If the going gets rough, they count on governments to bail them out. And use their golden parachutes for a soft landing. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends email encryption using GnuPG.

Response:

urthermore, ABC is a company-wide initiative that is sometimes noty understood by upper-level management and they see this as a waste of time. To implement an activity-based management/costing system, everyone in the company has to be involved to some degree.   If they are not sold on the idea, the implementation will fail. Yann  Why do so many companies drop out of ABC? Because they really don’t want transparency and prefer muddling through. If the going gets rough, they count on governments to bail them out. And use their golden parachutes for a soft landing. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. http://www.consult-meyers.com recommends email encryption using GnuPG.

– Yann Brisebois, CGA Manager, Finance and Accounting Malkam Cross-Cultural Training www.malkam.com (613) 761-7440 "Visit our website for diversity, culture, language, and employment program resources"

Response:

Question:

Bernhard, Thanks for your well-written and reflected post. One comment on the general effect of boycots: There is a lot of debate about how effective they are. But in the case of South Africa under Apartheid, former leaders of the white regime admit that the growing isolation the country faced was important in seeking a negotiated solution with Nelson Mandela. In the case of Iraq it depends what you see the goal as. If the goal was to remove Saddam Hussein it has failed. If the goal was to keep the country down and stop it from rearming and possibly cause war again, it has succeeded.

I agree. I think we all do not want to keep the country down. Burma needs a real change. IMHO, boycott of independent tourism does not lead to such change. Investment boycott and even boycott of organized, prepaid tourism is a different thing. I don’t know what is the best thing to do in the case of Burma. I do sympathise with the individual citizen who badly needs the tourist dollar. But if the pressure works and the regime gives in, could happen unexpectedly, just as when the Berlin wall came down in 1989. But the long history of civil and ethnic war in Burma, and the not-so-hidden hand of China (and India, both seeking regional influence) in supporting the current military government makes it difficult to apply pressure in a way that would really weaken the generals. Perhaps this regional support, as well as the money made from the drug trade, is what really keeps the military clique in power.

Sure, it’s the regional support, the drug trade and huge investments from abroad (i.e. Canadian) companies that makes most of the money for the generals. Compared to that, earnings from tourists, especially backpackers, do not count much. It’s the signal effect that might be of a certain value. But has it achieved anything during the last ten years? AFP: "The poor state of the economy is one factor believed to be behind a nascent political thaw, resulting in senior military leaders meeting with opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi. Some commentators say that the regime is planning to make some concessions to the National League for Democracy in the hopes of shedding its pariah status and easing sanctions." BTW, before the Berlin wall came down, East Germany was facing massive economic problems too. Could this be the beginning of a change? Even if supported by some neighbors, the tatmadaw has led the country to a desastrous economic situation. Will they have to make more concessions or is it just a game to keep international protests down? The more the outside world knows about what’s going on, the better. I hope I will soon find time to add some stories about my recent experiences in Burma to my website. Some of them will show that the country is not just "travelers paradise", even if many of my photos look exactly like that… Bernie — Follow me on a fantastic trip to Indochina Laos, Cambodia and Burma Travelogues http://www.asiaphoto.de

Response:

*snip* A travel boycott is always directed at an entire nation, as it reduces the income of local people too. It has been proven many times that boycotts do not work effectivly. Cuba and Iraq are just two examples that spring to my mind.

*snip* Bernhard, Thanks for your well-written and reflected post. One comment on the general effect of boycots: There is a lot of debate about how effective they are. But in the case of South Africa under Apartheid, former leaders of the white regime admit that the growing isolation the country faced was important in seeking a negotiated solution with Nelson Mandela. In the case of Iraq it depends what you see the goal as. If the goal was to remove Saddam Hussein it has failed. If the goal was to keep the country down and stop it from rearming and possibly cause war again, it has succeeded. On the other side you have Cuba, where the boycott seems pointless, only giving Fidel Castro a perfect excuse for every problem on the island. But the USA is the only Western country to boycott it – Europe and Canada and the others do not. And then there is the signal effect of boycotts. This is even harder to measure or agree upon. But I suspect that, say,  if I was a Thai general wanting to mount a military coup, the international reaction to such an event  would be one of the factors that I considered. The world would be surprised and disappointed to see tanks in the streets of Bangkok in this democratic post-cold-war era. And the Thais, ever face-conscious, know this. So the prospect of becoming an international pariah nation would frighten other segments of society that might otherwise welcome or tolerate a military take-over. I don’t know what is the best thing to do in the case of Burma. I do sympathise with the individual citizen who badly needs the tourist dollar. But if the pressure works and the regime gives in, could happen unexpectedly, just as when the Berlin wall came down in 1989. But the long history of civil and ethnic war in Burma, and the not-so-hidden hand of China (and India, both seeking regional influence) in supporting the current military government makes it difficult to apply pressure in a way that would really weaken the generals. Perhaps this regional support, as well as the money made from the drug trade, is what really keeps the military clique in power. Vagabond

Response:

Myanmar promotes tourism as critics urge boycott February 20, 2001 Web posted at: 3:33 p.m. EST (2033 GMT) YANGON, Myanmar (AP) — The tourism industry thinks it can make the magic of Myanmar — golden pagodas, ancient cities, sarong-clad people — a more potent lure than the calls for a boycott of this military-ruled nation. Business people maintain that lackluster marketing, few international air links and bureaucratic hassles rather than political activists have held Myanmar back from becoming one of Asia’s top tourist destinations. They’re especially hopeful about a new promotion campaign they have planned. "The biggest thing is awareness. The country has basically been locked away from the world since World War II," said Duncan T. MacLean, who heads the recently formed Marketing Myanmar Committee. Travelers urged to stay away The industry contends it isn’t worried by the boycott campaign started by Aung San Suu Kyi, the pro-democracy leader and Nobel peace laureate who is urging tourists as well as foreign investors to shun her country. A number of human rights advocacy groups around the world have taken up her call. They argue tourist spending goes into the coffers of a junta that brutally crushed a people’s power uprising in 1988, uses forced labor on tourism projects and tramples on basic human rights. "The tourism industry and visiting tourists are helping sustain one of the most brutal regimes in the world. The cost of a holiday could be someone’s life," says the Burma Campaign, which is based in Britain. Although tourist numbers have leveled off the last three years, arrivals are up some sixfold from a decade ago. Where once only limited and regimented group tours were available, about 200 travel agencies now offer jungle treks, river cruises, steam locomotive travel and ballooning over ancient temples. Hotels have mushroomed. MacLean estimates that Myanmar, also known as Burma, saw 150,000 to 160,000 tourists last year. The government’s figure, which appears to include businessmen, diplomats and other foreigners, is 200,000. Tourism increase predicted MacLean, also general manager of the Hotel Equatorial, predicts the country will see an increase in business travelers soon and then a significant rise in tourist visits during the 2001-02 high season. His committee, which brings together the private and government sectors, plans major promotion campaigns this year, including the first direct push in the United States. "Each year our marketing gets more effective. It looks like we’re going in the right direction," said S.B. Chetry, local operator of the U.S.-based tour agency Journeys. "We should start on a steady growth from now on." Not if groups like the Burma Campaign have their way. "It’s such a beautiful, magical place; it would be wonderful to have people go there in the future. But we have to hold off now," said a spokeswoman, Yvette Mahon. "We don’t have any sense that the campaign is not working." Mahon said in a telephone interview that her group is focusing on France, Germany and Italy, which send the most Western tourists to Myanmar. It is also urging people not to buy the most popular guide book on Myanmar. The 2000 edition of the Lonely Planet guide argues that tourism revenue flows largely into ordinary people’s pockets, since most of the industry is now privatized. It also says the presence of foreigners has at times ameliorated human rights abuses. "We continue to believe that the positives of travel to Myanmar outweigh the negatives," the guide says. Expatriates and Myanmar people who benefit from tourism generally echo that position and say their focus is on making it easier for foreigners to visit. They want the government to issue tourist visas on arrival and end a requirement for tourists to change $200 into a special currency that does go to the state. "The industry is just a baby. We’re in the crawling stage," MacLean said. "The new tourism is only about five years old." The government-organized Visit Myanmar Year in 1996 was largely a flop, but Chetry said it did heighten Myanmar’s international profile and prompted the government to offer incentives to the private sector. Hotels proliferated and travel agencies were able to obtain such hitherto scarce items as telephones and faxes. These allowed them to plug into the outside world where they are now trying to play down the politics and lure visitors with come-ons like "Be mesmerized by Myanmar." Copyright 2001 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Holiday In Hell A well-intentioned travel boycott of Myanmar hurts ordinary people By RON GLUCKMAN ASIAWEEK MAGAZINE FEBRUARY 23, 2001 We’re bumping along rutted roads in a dusty rented car, Tony and the driver up front, Maureen and me in back, when Tony, face pressed in his Lonely Planet guidebook, suggests another stop. Up ahead is Thayekhittaya, ruins dating back 2,500 years. The description is enticing, but we can’t help but groan. We’ve been lurching for eight, long hours on the road from Myanmar’s capital, Yangon. We ache, it’s nearly dark, and tomorrow morning promises another long ride to Bagan, the ancient city that is our quest. Besides, we bowed to Tony last time, at Shwe-myetman Paya (Temple of the Golden Spectacles). The appeal – you guessed it – a Buddha with big glasses. "It takes nine monks to lift the glasses every fortnight to clean them," Tony gleefully recites from the guide he keeps close at hand. To be honest, we are a bit Buddha-ed out, a common condition among tourists in this pagoda-packed land. Still, it’s a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, exhorts Tony. So, as the sun sets, we’re tramping through muddy fields – only the temples are so far away, we never reach one. "Gee, this book should better explain the distance," says Tony, unabashed. "You really need more time here." You’d think he’d be at least a little bit contrite. After all, it’s his guide book. Literally. Tony and Maureen Wheeler practically invented budget travel. Their hand-stapled reports back in 1973 from a honeymoon trek across Asia spawned Lonely Planet and its legendary backpacker guides. With their down-to-earth, first-person reports of how to get there, what to see and where to stay, plus their in-depth sections on history, culture and the environment, all delivered with a 1960s-style counterculture slant, the Wheelers’ guides have long been the bible for independent travelers. But Tony and Maureen were not trudging through Myanmar to check on the accuracy of travel times in their book on the country. They came to this tragic but beautiful land because human rights activists have organized a boycott aimed at forcing them to cease publication of their Myanmar guide. "The development of tourism in Burma is directly linked to mass human rights abuses including rape, torture and murder," declares Tourism Concern and Burma Campaign, two London-based activist groups. "Lonely Planet’s promotion of tourism to Burma . . . have left pro-democracy activists with no choice but to call for a boycott." The campaigners last year asked concerned travellers to stop buying any Lonely Planet books as long as the company publishes a Myanmar guide. The Wheelers were stunned. After all, their guides provide blunt expositions of human rights violations in addition to explaining how to get to obscure pagodas and where to find the best cheap meals. The company donates part of its profits to causes like women’s rights and the environment (and including, for many years, Tourism Concern and Burma Campaign). Only repressive governments ban Lonely Planet guides for being too honest about the problems in countries they cover. Or so the Wheelers thought. The boycott is one of the latest acts in the long-running tragedy that is Burma – or Myanmar, as it was named by the generals who seized power in 1988 over the bodies of thousands of student protesters. They later refused to relinquish control following elections in 1990 won by the opposition led by Aung San Suu Kyi. Her courage in the years of resistance and house arrest since has earned her a Nobel Peace Prize. Tourism might seem a strange target in the battle against the junta, but the long stalemate has forced drastic tactics. The regime’s plan to boost visitor numbers in the 1990s presented an obvious Achilles’ Heel. Aung San Suu Kyi called on would-be tourists to shun her country, arguing that their money only helped the military, not the ordinary people. From there, the boycott has grown from telling foreigners not to go to Myanmar, to insisting that they not even buy books about going to Myanmar. Should you stay or should you go? "The message from Aung San Suu Kyi and the NLD {her National League for Democracy party} has been unequivocal," says Patricia Barnett, director of Tourism Concern. "They say don’t go, and they are the legitimate government. We have to respect their wishes." The Wheelers were not sure. A two-page section in the Lonely Planet Myanmar guide outlines the pros and cons, but concludes: "Tourism remains one of the only industries to which ordinary people have access. Any reduction in tourism automatically means a re-duction in local income earning opportunities. For this reason alone, we continue to believe that the positives of travel to Myanmar outweigh the negatives." Still, logic dictates that the debate be decided in the country in question, not at the home office. Hence, Tony and Maureen have come to Myanmar to see things for themselves. Asiaweek tagged along for our own look. Tourism is bad, say boycott groups, since it props up the military regime and helps no one in Myanmar. That argument puzzles Soe Tint, a taxi driver in

… read more »

Response:

Ah, Walter!  So we meet again.  Since you work for the Burmese action group, it’s clear you agree with their approach and we shouldn’t bore everyone going round and round on this again . . . but I couldn’t resist . . . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I have some sympathy with that point of view, it ain’t always so. One of the problems with tourism in Burma as it’s currently structured, is that licensing for guesthouses (small and large) and "small travel agencies" is rather tightly controlled and frequently dispensed only to SLORC supporters and their family members and friends. Which suggests a couple of things: with my government!  Why can’t people see past the righteous propaganda and do the same with Burma.  On one of my trips there 7 years ago, the workers in the central region were just eating fish paste with rice . . . when the kyat was 100 kyat to the USD.  Now it’s 428 ky to the USD.  Can you really feel good about starving these folks out? The kyat has gone to about 550 per dollar in the past month.  And the reason is not, as you imply,

I’m not implying this at all.  Actual, Walter, we agree.  Tourism makes little if any impact!  That’s the very point you illustrate. So why the tourist boycott? that some people have chosen to support the National League for Democracy’s request that tourists stay away under current circumstances.  The cause is chronic mismanagement of the economy by the military junta.  Last spring they raised military and bureaucratic salaries by a factor of five, and last month they said they’d raise them again by a factor of four.  That doesn’t address the underlying problems in the economy, it just fuels inflation. On top of which, the major cash contributor to the economy is not tourism by a long shot! Funny that in one breath you suggest supporters of the NLD are "starving these folks out" and in the next breath suggesting that tourism is anyway not a substantial part of the economy.

Nope, just suggesting a TOURIST boycott might be more likely to starve out the REGULAR folks of a chance at hard currency . . . clearly the military are well fed! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s great to read Amnesty Int’l and I appreciate the Burmese action groups postings as a way to keep in touch with the news, too.  But part of the key to this WHOLE story is the economics of Burma which those groups won’t put in their lit because it doesn’t back their approach.  Check out the US embassy’s economic assessment out of Yangon. Do check out the US Embassy reports, as well as IMF and World Bank analyses, as well as ILO, AI and other human rights reports.  The economic analyses clearly suggest that the junta, by trying to rule the country by force, expends much too much of national wealth on its coercive apparatus, just trying to get people to do what they are ordered to do.  In addition, by running the economy to serve the political needs of the junta, they get extremely poor economic outcomes.  And it is conscious decisionmaking by the junta that provides among the lowest funding on the planet for education and public health. The poverty in Burma is the result of military rule.  Period.

Couldn’t agree with you more.  That wasn’t the issue.  The issue was TOURISM dollar impact.  Everyone agrees on the government, Walter.  You’re arguing something we all agree with.  The issue was whether or not to go as a tourist. Just one last thing, we’re sitting on our plush butts in the Western world deciding whether or not we should make these people matyrs for the cause. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that most Burmese don’t want to be.  Most folks period are trying just "To Live" (as the Chinese film put it) and would forgo boycotts and politics in favor of feeding their families. Nancy And the thousands of students who’ve fled Burma, who’ve sacrificed their best years in the malarial border areas, living underground and in fear inside Thailand, who support the NLD position, what do you say to them? Are they sitting on their plush butts, as you say?  Or do you prefer not to hear them?  Just curious.

No, they’re not.  Walter, you have an uncanny ability to listen and not hear. I can hear you twisting the words from here!  I said Western, Walter, and I meant it.  And while some brave souls revolted and went into hiding, you know the reason why your approach hasn’t been more successful is because the others are understandably afraid and unwillingly to be matyrs. We agree on everything but approach, Walter!  Good to hear from you.  And glad you’re still kicking around! Nancy

Response:

Q. To go or not to go? A. Not to go!

Well argued.

Response:

Well put, Tracy!  Just one point of clarification.  Perhaps I wasn’t clear, but I’m not saying that the Burmese resistance is pursuing an economically destructive policy.  The economic facts actually show that tourism, itself, has little to do with the economics of the country.  So while anyone would applaud the folks fighting a repressive regime, I think that tourism itself, might benefit the regular worker more than bolster a bad system.  It leads to less isolation and a greater world picture for the average Burmese.  And I do believe it helps quite a few small folks financially.  One teacher (of monks learning English) I know has accrued quite a lot of language instruction books and a lot of international friends meeting tourists. S. Africa btw is an interesting scenario, because the burden (for the new gov’t) of a heavy debt the old took on because of boycotts . . . and how to regenerate trade are two great problems. So, briefly, clearly the Burmese government is a problem. . . the question is what tactics will liberalize system . . . obviously, there is more than one way to go about this.  Since 1990 the resistance has tried to make headway by fighting the gov’t.  Meanwhile, the economy has liberalized a bit to allow for independent entrepreneurs, less restricted travel . . . and they’ve joined ASEAN.  It might be the system has to be changed from within. So, I’m not saying I’m some wise backpacker.  (I’m not even a backpacker!  Just a remote traveller.)  But, just as we all determine politics for our countries by gathering information, I’m attempting to do the same pertaining to Burma.   I think the "boycott tourism" stance is more ideological than economic.  But of course, people are free to take action any way they see fit.  (It’s not so different from recognizing a problem with the homeless in your country . . . but choosing between giving money to a soup kitchen that might encourage a "handout" mentality, or giving money to a lobbying group that might reform legislation that puts psychiatric patients on the street.) Take care,   Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi Nancy, We’ve discussed this issue before, and I’m not going to go on and on about it But while I don’t doubt that the people of Burma would prefer not to be martyrs to the cause (who on earth does?), I do find it curious that people who choose to go insist that the Burmese resistance, which is really the legitimate elected government of Burma, is so completely  ignorant of the economic realities of the country and the wishes of their people, as to pursue a foolish, destructive policy. "These groups" to which you refer, are dispensing information gathered from the Burmese resistance. I do find it to naive to assume a couple of weeks of backpacking imbues a more sophisticated knowledge of the political and economic complexities than a lifetime of being Burmese. Of course political strategies differ, and many opposed disinvestment in South Africa as an anti-apartheid strategy at the time, although it seems to have had a beneficial effect in ratcheting up the pressure on De Klerk. Nothing is 100%. But honestly, not having spent my life studying Burma, I do give some credit to those who have been fighting SLORC for many years. And if there’s something that I, plush Western tourist, can do to assist their struggle, I’ll do it. And it has been asked. Pretty much the same as sending a check after a major earthquake IMHO. You do what you can. Tracy Sorry, Tracy, but on this one you seem like the folks who boycott movies (e.g. Last Temptation of Christ) because someone told them it was bad. Sure, tourism is Burma is structured.  But the very local transport–pedicabs in Yangon, horsecarts in Pagan–are very much independent systems.  So are many of the "independent" cars you can take (though it may cost you black market fuel rates).  And don’t forget, just because these people live in this country and to run a business have to pay it taxes . . . does NOT mean they agree with the leadership.  Heck, Bush has just been voted in in my country and I find is views and lack of integrity elitist, opportunist and embarrasing . . . but I still have to pay taxes.  I would hope those outside the US wouldn’t equate me with my government!  Why can’t people see past the righteous propaganda and do the same with Burma.  On one of my trips there 7 years ago, the workers in the central region were just eating fish paste with rice . . . when the kyat was 100 kyat to the USD.  Now it’s 428 ky to the USD.  Can you really feel good about starving these folks out? On top of which, the major cash contributor to the economy is not tourism by a long shot!  And if you think money doesn’t trickle down from tourism, you can just imagine who keeps all the money from the gem trade, the Yadana oil fields, trade with China.   It’s great to read Amnesty Int’l and I appreciate the Burmese action groups postings as a way to keep in touch with the news, too.  But part of the key to this WHOLE story is the economics of Burma which those groups won’t put in their lit because it doesn’t back their approach.  Check out the US embassy’s economic assessment out of Yangon.   Just one last thing, we’re sitting on our plush butts in the Western world deciding whether or not we should make these people matyrs for the cause. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that most Burmese don’t want to be.  Most folks period are trying just "To Live" (as the Chinese film put it) and would forgo boycotts and politics in favor of feeding their families. Nancy

Response:

Sure, I got the sarcasm part Just wondering about the snip, it looks like a reply to Vagabond when it should have been a reply to "None". Makes poor vagabond look so activist… Roscoe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strange, I thought Vagabond has argued for "to go"… snipped the wrong text or is it just me and my Bergheimer Sometimer Alzheimer again? It was (deadpan) sarcasm. Q. To go or not to go? A. Not to go! Well argued.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I have some sympathy with that point of view, it ain’t always so. One of the problems with tourism in Burma as it’s currently structured, is that licensing for guesthouses (small and large) and "small travel agencies" is rather tightly controlled and frequently dispensed only to SLORC supporters and their family members and friends. Which suggests a couple of things: with my government!  Why can’t people see past the righteous propaganda and do the same with Burma.  On one of my trips there 7 years ago, the workers in the central region were just eating fish paste with rice . . . when the kyat was 100 kyat to the USD.  Now it’s 428 ky to the USD.  Can you really feel good about starving these folks out?

The kyat has gone to about 550 per dollar in the past month.  And the reason is not, as you imply, that some people have chosen to support the National League for Democracy’s request that tourists stay away under current circumstances.  The cause is chronic mismanagement of the economy by the military junta.  Last spring they raised military and bureaucratic salaries by a factor of five, and last month they said they’d raise them again by a factor of four.  That doesn’t address the underlying problems in the economy, it just fuels inflation. On top of which, the major cash contributor to the economy is not tourism by a long shot!

Funny that in one breath you suggest supporters of the NLD are "starving these folks out" and in the next breath suggesting that tourism is anyway not a substantial part of the economy. It’s great to read Amnesty Int’l and I appreciate the Burmese action groups postings as a way to keep in touch with the news, too.  But part of the key to this WHOLE story is the economics of Burma which those groups won’t put in their lit because it doesn’t back their approach.  Check out the US embassy’s economic assessment out of Yangon.

Do check out the US Embassy reports, as well as IMF and World Bank analyses, as well as ILO, AI and other human rights reports.  The economic analyses clearly suggest that the junta, by trying to rule the country by force, expends much too much of national wealth on its coercive apparatus, just trying to get people to do what they are ordered to do.  In addition, by running the economy to serve the political needs of the junta, they get extremely poor economic outcomes.  And it is conscious decisionmaking by the junta that provides among the lowest funding on the planet for education and public health. The poverty in Burma is the result of military rule.  Period. Just one last thing, we’re sitting on our plush butts in the Western world deciding whether or not we should make these people matyrs for the cause. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that most Burmese don’t want to be.  Most folks period are trying just "To Live" (as the Chinese film put it) and would forgo boycotts and politics in favor of feeding their families. Nancy

And the thousands of students who’ve fled Burma, who’ve sacrificed their best years in the malarial border areas, living underground and in fear inside Thailand, who support the NLD position, what do you say to them? Are they sitting on their plush butts, as you say?  Or do you prefer not to hear them?  Just curious.

Response:

Hi Nancy, We’ve discussed this issue before, and I’m not going to go on and on about it But while I don’t doubt that the people of Burma would prefer not to be martyrs to the cause (who on earth does?), I do find it curious that people who choose to go insist that the Burmese resistance, which is really the legitimate elected government of Burma, is so completely  ignorant of the economic realities of the country and the wishes of their people, as to pursue a foolish, destructive policy. "These groups" to which you refer, are dispensing information gathered from the Burmese resistance. I do find it to naive to assume a couple of weeks of backpacking imbues a more sophisticated knowledge of the political and economic complexities than a lifetime of being Burmese. Of course political strategies differ, and many opposed disinvestment in South Africa as an anti-apartheid strategy at the time, although it seems to have had a beneficial effect in ratcheting up the pressure on De Klerk. Nothing is 100%. But honestly, not having spent my life studying Burma, I do give some credit to those who have been fighting SLORC for many years. And if there’s something that I, plush Western tourist, can do to assist their struggle, I’ll do it. And it has been asked. Pretty much the same as sending a check after a major earthquake IMHO. You do what you can. Tracy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sorry, Tracy, but on this one you seem like the folks who boycott movies (e.g. Last Temptation of Christ) because someone told them it was bad. Sure, tourism is Burma is structured.  But the very local transport–pedicabs in Yangon, horsecarts in Pagan–are very much independent systems.  So are many of the "independent" cars you can take (though it may cost you black market fuel rates).  And don’t forget, just because these people live in this country and to run a business have to pay it taxes . . . does NOT mean they agree with the leadership.  Heck, Bush has just been voted in in my country and I find is views and lack of integrity elitist, opportunist and embarrasing . . . but I still have to pay taxes.  I would hope those outside the US wouldn’t equate me with my government!  Why can’t people see past the righteous propaganda and do the same with Burma.  On one of my trips there 7 years ago, the workers in the central region were just eating fish paste with rice . . . when the kyat was 100 kyat to the USD.  Now it’s 428 ky to the USD.  Can you really feel good about starving these folks out? On top of which, the major cash contributor to the economy is not tourism by a long shot!  And if you think money doesn’t trickle down from tourism, you can just imagine who keeps all the money from the gem trade, the Yadana oil fields, trade with China.   It’s great to read Amnesty Int’l and I appreciate the Burmese action groups postings as a way to keep in touch with the news, too.  But part of the key to this WHOLE story is the economics of Burma which those groups won’t put in their lit because it doesn’t back their approach.  Check out the US embassy’s economic assessment out of Yangon.   Just one last thing, we’re sitting on our plush butts in the Western world deciding whether or not we should make these people matyrs for the cause. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that most Burmese don’t want to be.  Most folks period are trying just "To Live" (as the Chinese film put it) and would forgo boycotts and politics in favor of feeding their families. Nancy

Response:

Strange, I thought Vagabond has argued for "to go"… snipped the wrong text or is it just me and my Bergheimer Sometimer Alzheimer again? Roscoe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Q. To go or not to go? A. Not to go! Well argued.

Response:

Strange, I thought Vagabond has argued for "to go"… snipped the wrong text or is it just me and my Bergheimer Sometimer Alzheimer again?

It was (deadpan) sarcasm. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Q. To go or not to go? A. Not to go! Well argued.

Response:

Q. To go or not to go? A. Not to go!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While I have some sympathy with that point of view, it ain’t always so. One of the problems with tourism in Burma as it’s currently structured, is that licensing for guesthouses (small and large) and "small travel agencies" is rather tightly controlled and frequently dispensed only to SLORC supporters and their family members and friends. Which suggests a couple of things: That many of the "ordinary folks" that a backpacker is likely to encounter have reasons for saying that they do not support the boycott. (Partially accounting for the universality of such feedback). That some of the funds paid for accomodation and transport are funding the party And that folks from "small travel agencies" aren’t necessarily providing free guide service entirely from the kindness of their hearts. They may also, at least partially, be directing what is seen and what isn’t. Seeing has value, but it isn’t always wise to take everything entirely at face value, especially when its directly contradictory to what many raised in a culture and a political structure say is happening. Just something to consider. I’ll personally honor the wishes of the resistance party as I understand them. Tracy Thank you. Seeing is believing.

Sorry, Tracy, but on this one you seem like the folks who boycott movies (e.g. Last Temptation of Christ) because someone told them it was bad. Sure, tourism is Burma is structured.  But the very local transport–pedicabs in Yangon, horsecarts in Pagan–are very much independent systems.  So are many of the "independent" cars you can take (though it may cost you black market fuel rates).  And don’t forget, just because these people live in this country and to run a business have to pay it taxes . . . does NOT mean they agree with the leadership.  Heck, Bush has just been voted in in my country and I find is views and lack of integrity elitist, opportunist and embarrasing . . . but I still have to pay taxes.  I would hope those outside the US wouldn’t equate me with my government!  Why can’t people see past the righteous propaganda and do the same with Burma.  On one of my trips there 7 years ago, the workers in the central region were just eating fish paste with rice . . . when the kyat was 100 kyat to the USD.  Now it’s 428 ky to the USD.  Can you really feel good about starving these folks out? On top of which, the major cash contributor to the economy is not tourism by a long shot!  And if you think money doesn’t trickle down from tourism, you can just imagine who keeps all the money from the gem trade, the Yadana oil fields, trade with China.   It’s great to read Amnesty Int’l and I appreciate the Burmese action groups postings as a way to keep in touch with the news, too.  But part of the key to this WHOLE story is the economics of Burma which those groups won’t put in their lit because it doesn’t back their approach.  Check out the US embassy’s economic assessment out of Yangon.   Just one last thing, we’re sitting on our plush butts in the Western world deciding whether or not we should make these people matyrs for the cause. Doesn’t surprise me a bit that most Burmese don’t want to be.  Most folks period are trying just "To Live" (as the Chinese film put it) and would forgo boycotts and politics in favor of feeding their families. Nancy

Response:

What I would say here is well done Lonely Planet Guide. It would have been almost immoral for them to quit the guide. I was in Burma in 1991 and the situation was just the same then. I have the greatest respect for Aung San Suu Kyi (who on earth, apart from the Burmese generals, does not have?) but surely she has not got this quite right. No boycott of individual travellers will ever bring the generals down. The 1988 riots threatened to, but once failed, like in China, the grip tightened so that this route cannot be used again. Quite simply the generals will never loosen their power, not in the next 20 years or so anyway (in my opinion of course). I really don’t believe that there’s any hope of a solution, but to boycott independent travellers cannot help in any way. I came away from Burma with an awareness of the country and I now read the news about Burma with an interest that I would never have if I had not gone there. And this is one of the problems of Burma, very few people have an awareness of the country. I really do not believe that Lonely Planet is doing this for good business reasons. In fact, quite the opposite, I think that it would score on PR if it withdrew the book. I know the type of people too well who say things like "Engagement doesn’t help" and "This is a crisis situation, people just have to tighten their belts" over coffee at Starbuck’s. Also the  NGO’s who sit in riverside cafes in Pnohm Pehn, scoffing at you coming as a tourist, when they are there for such "caring reasons". A growing market economy is the way out of the problems of Burma and Cambodia. It’s hard to underestimate the importance of tourism in giving opportunity to the people of these countries. The independent tourist is quite possibly doing more to help Burma than anyone else here. In my experience in the meetings of the people that press for such boycotts, they all just stick to one conceited blueprint. No one at any of their meeting dares put forward a dissenting voice. Their arrogance, reaching the heights of trying to ban books suggests that they may well have more in common with the generals than it may appears. Osama

Response:

While I have some sympathy with that point of view, it ain’t always so. One of the problems with tourism in Burma as it’s currently structured, is that licensing for guesthouses (small and large) and "small travel agencies" is rather tightly controlled and frequently dispensed only to SLORC supporters and their family members and friends. Which suggests a couple of things: That many of the "ordinary folks" that a backpacker is likely to encounter have reasons for saying that they do not support the boycott. (Partially accounting for the universality of such feedback). That some of the funds paid for accomodation and transport are funding the party And that folks from "small travel agencies" aren’t necessarily providing free guide service entirely from the kindness of their hearts. They may also, at least partially, be directing what is seen and what isn’t. Seeing has value, but it isn’t always wise to take everything entirely at face value, especially when its directly contradictory to what many raised in a culture and a political structure say is happening. Just something to consider. I’ll personally honor the wishes of the resistance party as I understand them. Tracy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you. Seeing is believing.

Response:

Thank you. Seeing is believing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I spent 3weeks in Burma in Dec/Jan and have to echo Eddie’s sentiments. The route I took was way off the ‘tourist path. From Yangon, I went to Lashio (close to the Chinese border) and had no problems what so ever. In case anyone is interested, some of the photographs can be seen at http://inayath.tripod.com I went to Burma as an independant traveller for 3 weeks in March 2000 and took a mountain bike with me.  I flew to Yangon, went by bus to Mandalay, by train to Myitkina (36 hours), Bhamo, by river boat to Mandalay (36 hours), Bagan and back to Yangon by bus. Using the bike was ideal for sightseeing transport around the cities and near countryside as it allowed me to see many areas not visited by foreign visitors. I had hoped to use the bike for travelling between the towns but the lack of accommodation permitted for foreigners, distances, road conditions and schedule didn’t allow this to happen. The Burmese people I met on this trip were very kind and, I felt, genuinly pleased of my interest in their country. On a number of occasions I was escorted on sightseeing trips by them. An old gentleman near the ancient city of Ava could see that I was well off the tourist route (in fact I was completely lost and 5 miles beyond my destination) stopped me and asked if he could help. This man (a retired teacher) gave me a wonderful guided tour and only on my insistance took any payment for his expenses and time. Another young lady from a small travel agency in Myitkina accompanied me by bike around the town and countryside for an afternoon – She absolutely refused any payment. Often while cyling past tea stalls men would call out to me and invite me to watch the premier league football on TV. In Myitkina a group of students saw me and invited me to a tea stall on the banks of the Irrawaddy river. They wanted to practise English and asked if I would come to their "school" the next morning for class. After helping with pronunciations and so on they insisted on taking me for breakfast at their expense. They wouldn’t let me pay so I gave them a bunch of pens instead. At no time did I see the huge military presence and persecution of Burmese peoples that some posters would lead one to expect. I don’t deny that it goes on and am highly suspicious of the government and this being the reason for so many states that are off limits to foreigners. I got the impression that most people were too busy earning a living than fearing from persecution. Again I’m not denying that the government is repressive and that things must change in Burma. These are my unique experiences of Burma and will never be forgotten. I guess my point of this is to say that if you do visit Burma and try to use privately owned enterprises for travel, lodging and food then you will be helping the local people far more than if you stay away. Your trip will be memorable and rewarding to both yourself and the local people you meet. Eddie You can have your own "group tour" organised from Bangkok – a group is 2 people or more, with a local guide to take you around. More or less all expenses taken care of by the travel agent in BKK. They even have a way "around" the forced currency exchange at the arrival port. I have debated with myself for years if I should go to Burma or not. One issue is the forced currency exchange, if that is taken care of there is only the regime thing left. I can just imagine all those politically correct people I know crying in disgust if I tell them I am going to Burma… Come to think of it, they cry in disgust when I go to Thailand too, but for different reasons…. Vagabond  hours)

Response:

Thank you. Seeing is believing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to Burma as an independant traveller for 3 weeks in March 2000 and took a mountain bike with me.  I flew to Yangon, went by bus to Mandalay, by train to Myitkina (36 hours), Bhamo, by river boat to Mandalay (36 hours), Bagan and back to Yangon by bus. Using the bike was ideal for sightseeing transport around the cities and near countryside as it allowed me to see many areas not visited by foreign visitors. I had hoped to use the bike for travelling between the towns but the lack of accommodation permitted for foreigners, distances, road conditions and schedule didn’t allow this to happen. The Burmese people I met on this trip were very kind and, I felt, genuinly pleased of my interest in their country. On a number of occasions I was escorted on sightseeing trips by them. An old gentleman near the ancient city of Ava could see that I was well off the tourist route (in fact I was completely lost and 5 miles beyond my destination) stopped me and asked if he could help. This man (a retired teacher) gave me a wonderful guided tour and only on my insistance took any payment for his expenses and time. Another young lady from a small travel agency in Myitkina accompanied me by bike around the town and countryside for an afternoon – She absolutely refused any payment. Often while cyling past tea stalls men would call out to me and invite me to watch the premier league football on TV. In Myitkina a group of students saw me and invited me to a tea stall on the banks of the Irrawaddy river. They wanted to practise English and asked if I would come to their "school" the next morning for class. After helping with pronunciations and so on they insisted on taking me for breakfast at their expense. They wouldn’t let me pay so I gave them a bunch of pens instead. At no time did I see the huge military presence and persecution of Burmese peoples that some posters would lead one to expect. I don’t deny that it goes on and am highly suspicious of the government and this being the reason for so many states that are off limits to foreigners. I got the impression that most people were too busy earning a living than fearing from persecution. Again I’m not denying that the government is repressive and that things must change in Burma. These are my unique experiences of Burma and will never be forgotten. I guess my point of this is to say that if you do visit Burma and try to use privately owned enterprises for travel, lodging and food then you will be helping the local people far more than if you stay away. Your trip will be memorable and rewarding to both yourself and the local people you meet. Eddie You can have your own "group tour" organised from Bangkok – a group is 2 people or more, with a local guide to take you around. More or less all expenses taken care of by the travel agent in BKK. They even have a way "around" the forced currency exchange at the arrival port. I have debated with myself for years if I should go to Burma or not. One issue is the forced currency exchange, if that is taken care of there is only the regime thing left. I can just imagine all those politically correct people I know crying in disgust if I tell them I am going to Burma… Come to think of it, they cry in disgust when I go to Thailand too, but for different reasons…. Vagabond  hours)

Response:

I went to Burma as an independant traveller for 3 weeks in March 2000 and took a mountain bike with me.  I flew to Yangon, went by bus to Mandalay, by train to Myitkina (36 hours), Bhamo, by river boat to Mandalay (36 hours), Bagan and back to Yangon by bus. Using the bike was ideal for sightseeing transport around the cities and near countryside as it allowed me to see many areas not visited by foreign visitors. I had hoped to use the bike for travelling between the towns but the lack of accommodation permitted for foreigners, distances, road conditions and schedule didn’t allow this to happen. The Burmese people I met on this trip were very kind and, I felt, genuinly pleased of my interest in their country. On a number of occasions I was escorted on sightseeing trips by them. An old gentleman near the ancient city of Ava could see that I was well off the tourist route (in fact I was completely lost and 5 miles beyond my destination) stopped me and asked if he could help. This man (a retired teacher) gave me a wonderful guided tour and only on my insistance took any payment for his expenses and time. Another young lady from a small travel agency in Myitkina accompanied me by bike around the town and countryside for an afternoon – She absolutely refused any payment. Often while cyling past tea stalls men would call out to me and invite me to watch the premier league football on TV. In Myitkina a group of students saw me and invited me to a tea stall on the banks of the Irrawaddy river. They wanted to practise English and asked if I would come to their "school" the next morning for class. After helping with pronunciations and so on they insisted on taking me for breakfast at their expense. They wouldn’t let me pay so I gave them a bunch of pens instead. At no time did I see the huge military presence and persecution of Burmese peoples that some posters would lead one to expect. I don’t deny that it goes on and am highly suspicious of the government and this being the reason for so many states that are off limits to foreigners. I got the impression that most people were too busy earning a living than fearing from persecution. Again I’m not denying that the government is repressive and that things must change in Burma. These are my unique experiences of Burma and will never be forgotten. I guess my point of this is to say that if you do visit Burma and try to use privately owned enterprises for travel, lodging and food then you will be helping the local people far more than if you stay away. Your trip will be memorable and rewarding to both yourself and the local people you meet. Eddie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can have your own "group tour" organised from Bangkok – a group is 2 people or more, with a local guide to take you around. More or less all expenses taken care of by the travel agent in BKK. They even have a way "around" the forced currency exchange at the arrival port. I have debated with myself for years if I should go to Burma or not. One issue is the forced currency exchange, if that is taken care of there is only the regime thing left. I can just imagine all those politically correct people I know crying in disgust if I tell them I am going to Burma… Come to think of it, they cry in disgust when I go to Thailand too, but for different reasons…. Vagabond  hours)

Response:

I spent 3weeks in Burma in Dec/Jan and have to echo Eddie’s sentiments. The route I took was way off the ‘tourist path. From Yangon, I went to Lashio (close to the Chinese border) and had no problems what so ever. In case anyone is interested, some of the photographs can be seen at http://inayath.tripod.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went to Burma as an independant traveller for 3 weeks in March 2000 and took a mountain bike with me.  I flew to Yangon, went by bus to Mandalay, by train to Myitkina (36 hours), Bhamo, by river boat to Mandalay (36 hours), Bagan and back to Yangon by bus. Using the bike was ideal for sightseeing transport around the cities and near countryside as it allowed me to see many areas not visited by foreign visitors. I had hoped to use the bike for travelling between the towns but the lack of accommodation permitted for foreigners, distances, road conditions and schedule didn’t allow this to happen. The Burmese people I met on this trip were very kind and, I felt, genuinly pleased of my interest in their country. On a number of occasions I was escorted on sightseeing trips by them. An old gentleman near the ancient city of Ava could see that I was well off the tourist route (in fact I was completely lost and 5 miles beyond my destination) stopped me and asked if he could help. This man (a retired teacher) gave me a wonderful guided tour and only on my insistance took any payment for his expenses and time. Another young lady from a small travel agency in Myitkina accompanied me by bike around the town and countryside for an afternoon – She absolutely refused any payment. Often while cyling past tea stalls men would call out to me and invite me to watch the premier league football on TV. In Myitkina a group of students saw me and invited me to a tea stall on the banks of the Irrawaddy river. They wanted to practise English and asked if I would come to their "school" the next morning for class. After helping with pronunciations and so on they insisted on taking me for breakfast at their expense. They wouldn’t let me pay so I gave them a bunch of pens instead. At no time did I see the huge military presence and persecution of Burmese peoples that some posters would lead one to expect. I don’t deny that it goes on and am highly suspicious of the government and this being the reason for so many states that are off limits to foreigners. I got the impression that most people were too busy earning a living than fearing from persecution. Again I’m not denying that the government is repressive and that things must change in Burma. These are my unique experiences of Burma and will never be forgotten. I guess my point of this is to say that if you do visit Burma and try to use privately owned enterprises for travel, lodging and food then you will be helping the local people far more than if you stay away. Your trip will be memorable and rewarding to both yourself and the local people you meet. Eddie You can have your own "group tour" organised from Bangkok – a group is 2 people or more, with a local guide to take you around. More or less all expenses taken care of by the travel agent in BKK. They even have a way "around" the forced currency exchange at the arrival port. I have debated with myself for years if I should go to Burma or not. One issue is the forced currency exchange, if that is taken care of there is only the regime thing left. I can just imagine all those politically correct people I know crying in disgust if I tell them I am going to Burma… Come to think of it, they cry in disgust when I go to Thailand too, but for different reasons…. Vagabond  hours)

Response:

While package tourism might indeed fill the pockets of the upper class (just think of the tourist projects by the Suharto dictatorship), low scale, individual tourism does indeed help the local population.

That is to say: Don

Question:

Please, any one knows sites that give us information of the accounting history?

Response:

lease, any one knows sites that give us information of the accounting :history? http://journals.tandf.co.uk/journals/routledge/09585206.html http://www.altavista.com/ http://www.google.com/    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

Response:

Question:

Hmmm – well ok, how about lending ratios for top tier commercial/money center banks in the US, i.e.. Citi Group et all… As I recall there was some formula that banks use in determining how much can be lent in loan B after funding loan A, given a level of deposits C – something along these lines (no pun intended). El Squid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It wasn’t that simple when last I was involved with this in Canada. At that time we had a number of recognized types of lending institutions such as provincially chartered trust companies, federal trust companies, Schedule A banks, Schedule B banks, provincial mortgage companies, federal mortgage companies, insurance companies, finance companies, etc.  Some were regulated by the federal Department of Insurance, some by provincial registrars.  Each type of institution had different sets of permitted lending ratios, and different ratios for various types of loans to various types of deposits.  Some of the ratios varied geographically.  And not all lending institutions take deposits!   A report of lending ratios by one institution spanned about 20 pages. Maybe you could phrase a more specific question? Hi – can somebody refresh me or point me to where I can find out how much a lending institution can loan – as I recall there was a basic algorithm for the amount that could be lent out whereby the lender was only required to maintain a certain fraction thereof in deposits… Any help appreciated, El Squid Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

Hi, I would like to teach myself accounting.  Is there any self-help-type educational software out there that can help me? Thanks!

Response:

The association for professional bookkeepers has some courses they offer.  I noticed the price to be 49-69 per course.  You might try them.  I don’t have web address, just search bookkeeping on yahoo and you’ll find it pretty easy.

Response:

Hi – can somebody refresh me or point me to where I can find out how much a lending institution can loan – as I recall there was a basic algorithm for the amount that could be lent out whereby the lender was only required to maintain a certain fraction thereof in deposits… Any help appreciated, El Squid Before you buy.

Response:

Les, We have such a product. It’s called the Bookkeeper’s Crash Course in Accounting. It’s a CD-based training product that takes you through from beginning to end. See our website. www.sleeter.com Doug Sleeter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I would like to teach myself accounting.  Is there any self-help-type educational software out there that can help me? Thanks!

Response:

It wasn’t that simple when last I was involved with this in Canada. At that time we had a number of recognized types of lending institutions such as provincially chartered trust companies, federal trust companies, Schedule A banks, Schedule B banks, provincial mortgage companies, federal mortgage companies, insurance companies, finance companies, etc.  Some were regulated by the federal Department of Insurance, some by provincial registrars.  Each type of institution had different sets of permitted lending ratios, and different ratios for various types of loans to various types of deposits.  Some of the ratios varied geographically.  And not all lending institutions take deposits!   A report of lending ratios by one institution spanned about 20 pages. Maybe you could phrase a more specific question?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi – can somebody refresh me or point me to where I can find out how much a lending institution can loan – as I recall there was a basic algorithm for the amount that could be lent out whereby the lender was only required to maintain a certain fraction thereof in deposits… Any help appreciated, El Squid Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

"*Because **NYC** Could Be BETTER!!" <rosaphi…@webtv.net> wrote in message news:27245-3A12DE35-24@storefull-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net… JOB ANNOUNCEMENT: HARLEM INDEPENDENT LIVING CENTER, INC. JOB TITLE: EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR JOB SUMMARY: The Executive Director provides overall management of all fiscal and program operations; provides direct supervision of Administrative staff; cut! I will do it! — Visit my personal website for movies, pics (of my nurse!) , miniature jet engines, DDA act, VR6 MPV Disabled converted van, Bikes, V8 powered Ford Sierra with Nitrous!, Tuned Powerchairs and more! http://www.dynopower.freeserve.co.uk/homepages/

Response:

 JOB ANNOUNCEMENT: HARLEM INDEPENDENT LIVING CENTER, INC. JOB TITLE: EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR JOB SUMMARY: The Executive Director provides overall management of all fiscal and program operations; provides direct supervision of Administrative staff; works under the supervision of the Board of Directors and implements policies established by the Board; evaluates program and service data and provides reports to the Board of Directors; conducts community education and outreach activities; conducts marketing and development activities with the assistance of the Board of Directors; provides information and referral, advocacy and public education/information services. MINIMUM QUALIFICATIONS: Master’s degree in a field related to independent living and four year’s or related work experience, including two years in management; or Bachelor’s degree and six year’s related work experience, including two years in management. Personal experience with disability preferred. JOB CONDITIONS/APPLICATION PROCESS: Salary negotiable based on qualifications. Excellent benefits and leave time provided. Interested persons should send resume and cover letter including salary requirements to the Harlem Independent Living Center, Inc.

Question:

 i am seeking written publications that will back me up in a problem i have with depreceation i have a company leassing equipment and vehicles to others/ it is an opperating lease/ the leasse is for 5 years. after 5 years the value of the leassed eqipment is 25% of the cost the life span of the equipment is 15 years but if i depreciate the eqipment over that term of life span i get a disscrepancy, especially if i sell the equipment after the end of the leasse. this is why i am looking for a place where i can base the theory of depreciating the first 75% over the first 5 years, and the remaining 25% over the 10 years. if you have an answer please write on what you base your answer thankyou

Response:

Read the depreciation section of an intermediate level accounting text and get publications on depreciation from the IRS or the taxing agency in the country you are in.  Here in the U. S. you can download more than you’ll need answer depreciation questions but there is huge amounts of material. For example I’m researching the definition of "fixture".  So far I’ve found a couple books, many articles, a California Supreme Court case, and etc. J. D. Black

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am seeking written publications that will back me up in a problem i have with depreceation i have a company leassing equipment and vehicles to others/ it is an opperating lease/ the leasse is for 5 years. after 5 years the value of the leassed eqipment is 25% of the cost the life span of the equipment is 15 years but if i depreciate the eqipment over that term of life span i get a disscrepancy, especially if i sell the equipment after the end of the leasse. this is why i am looking for a place where i can base the theory of depreciating the first 75% over the first 5 years, and the remaining 25% over the 10 years. if you have an answer please write on what you base your answer thankyou

Response:

Question:

It is my understanding that anytime an invoice is generated in quickbooks that accounts receivable will increase.  In my case, the accounts receivable register indicates the posting of the invoice.  However, the balance sheet does not appear to be picking up the posting and as a result is not being increased. In other words, I look at the balance sheet item, Accounts Receivable.  I post an invoice.  The A/R register increases but the balance sheet item does not.  Seems that they should always agree. Does anyone have an ideas as to what the problem may be here?

You are almost surely looking at a cash basis balance sheet. Check Customize to fix memorized financials and one of the Preferences to fix future ones.   Mike Block, Tax Fighting C.P.A.              World’s #1 QuickBooks Top Tester 450+ page QB book/free updates $10 QB add-ons http://www.blocktax.com/       Ft Lauderdale FL 954-566-7540

Response:

Troubleshooting this I would see what a Detailed Transaction Report, Filtered to the Invoice looks like. See what accounts are posted and what the items are posting to. Are reports set to "Cash" while using the A/R features? The program works like it is supposed to for  most people, you can set up a new practice co and just enter one transaction and then look at the General Ledger.  When ever I get my backside in a corner, this help me to see the Accounting.  Most of these issues are correctable so the books stay in order. Hope this helps, Roman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is my understanding that anytime an invoice is generated in quickbooks that accounts receivable will increase.  In my case, the accounts receivable register indicates the posting of the invoice.  However, the balance sheet does not appear to be picking up the posting and as a result is not being increased. In other words, I look at the balance sheet item, Accounts Receivable.  I post an invoice.  The A/R register increases but the balance sheet item does not.  Seems that they should always agree. Does anyone have an ideas as to what the problem may be here? Thanks.

Response:

It is my understanding that anytime an invoice is generated in quickbooks that accounts receivable will increase.  In my case, the accounts receivable register indicates the posting of the invoice.  However, the balance sheet does not appear to be picking up the posting and as a result is not being increased. In other words, I look at the balance sheet item, Accounts Receivable.  I post an invoice.  The A/R register increases but the balance sheet item does not.  Seems that they should always agree. Does anyone have an ideas as to what the problem may be here? Thanks.

Response:

Question:

It is my understanding that in Texas there is a workmens compensation reason for providing cars rather than reimbursement of milage. I beleive it has to do with general liabilty exposure. I will ask our lawyer again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yah, the first is the company providing a "necessary tool".  The second is a "morale depressor" because staff see that as unequal.  Why not just increase the executives pay?  SDI and SSI cut out at high pay rates, so the company tax is nil vurses all the record keeping for a car. For the record, my boss has a car.

Response:

Can anyone help a translator looking for two terms for company cars: one is a car given to an employee who spends most of his time on the road; the other is given to an executive as a perk. Company car vs benefit car? There must be proper terminology for these two types in accounting language. Any help gratefully received George Varcoe

Response:

Yah, the first is the company providing a "necessary tool".  The second is a "morale depressor" because staff see that as unequal.  Why not just increase the executives pay?  SDI and SSI cut out at high pay rates, so the company tax is nil vurses all the record keeping for a car. For the record, my boss has a car.

Response: