Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – inimitable style: We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour. Why $12? That’s only $24K/year, you piker! Why not $50? Hell, why not $100? Given that Bush-supporting, right-wing morons have been posting that, when adjusting for inflation and accounting for the price of gas 25 years ago, gasoline is practically free—-no, that consumers of gasoline are being handed wads of cash by station operators as they fill up—-then the minimum wage adjustment you figured ought to be just about right. Given the cost and price of things 25 years ago, of course. Were you going to actually address the minimum wage issue before you got distracted on your little rant? Have someone hold your hand and point out to you that I did indeed address the minimum wage issue.

SD has been know to have these issues in the past.  He will spew forth a few useless epithets filled with common jargon, and then proceed to stick his head in the sand.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – style: We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour. Why $12? That’s only $24K/year, you piker! Why not $50? Hell, why not $100? Given that Bush-supporting, right-wing morons have been posting that, when adjusting for inflation and accounting for the price of gas 25 years ago, gasoline is practically free—-no, that consumers of gasoline are being handed wads of cash by station operators as they fill up—-then the minimum wage adjustment you figured ought to be just about right. Given the cost and price of things 25 years ago, of course. Were you going to actually address the minimum wage issue before you got distracted on your little rant? Have someone hold your hand and point out to you that I did indeed address the minimum wage issue.

The mere inclusion of the words "minimum wage" did not include any analysis of what happens when minimum wage is raised (jobs lost, prices rise).

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – inimitable style: "Winston Smith, American Patriot" We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour. Why $12? That’s only $24K/year, you piker! Why not $50? Hell, why not $100? Given that Bush-supporting, right-wing morons have been posting that, when adjusting for inflation and accounting for the price of gas 25 years ago, gasoline is practically free—-no, that consumers of gasoline are being handed wads of cash by station operators as they fill up—-then the minimum wage adjustment you figured ought to be just about right. Given the cost and price of things 25 years ago, of course. Were you going to actually address the minimum wage issue before you got distracted on your little rant? Have someone hold your hand and point out to you that I did indeed address the minimum wage issue. The mere inclusion of the words "minimum wage" did not include any analysis of what happens when minimum wage is raised (jobs lost, prices rise).

Finally, you add some worthwhile content.

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We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour.

Why $12? That’s only $24K/year, you piker! Why not $50? Hell, why not $100? —

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We should also move interest rates as close to zero as possible.

Heck. You (and that mouse in your pocket) are free to lend your vast fortune at any rate you choose (barring state usury laws of course). —

Response:

We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour.

We already are.

Response:

We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour. Why $12? That’s only $24K/year, you piker! Why not $50? Hell, why not $100?

Given that Bush-supporting, right-wing morons have been posting that, when adjusting for inflation and accounting for the price of gas 25 years ago, gasoline is practically free—-no, that consumers of gasoline are being handed wads of cash by station operators as they fill up—-then the minimum wage adjustment you figured ought to be just about right. Given the cost and price of things 25 years ago, of course. — Bush supporters beware:  ignorance is its own reinforcement.

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We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour.  We should also move interest rates as close to zero as possible.  Lower interest rates will increase temporary inflation, and the Philips-Fisher curve tells us there is a trade-off between inflation and unemployment.

If you laid all the economists in the world end-to-end, they wouldn’t reach a conclusion.

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We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour.  We should also move interest rates as close to zero as possible.

In other words, put all the unskilled labor types out of work and discourage any type of capital savings, right? Sheesh.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour. Why $12? That’s only $24K/year, you piker! Why not $50? Hell, why not $100? Given that Bush-supporting, right-wing morons have been posting that, when adjusting for inflation and accounting for the price of gas 25 years ago, gasoline is practically free—-no, that consumers of gasoline are being handed wads of cash by station operators as they fill up—-then the minimum wage adjustment you figured ought to be just about right. Given the cost and price of things 25 years ago, of course.

Were you going to actually address the minimum wage issue before you got distracted on your little rant?

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We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour.  We should also move interest rates as close to zero as possible. In other words, put all the unskilled labor types out of work and discourage any type of capital savings, right? Sheesh.

This is already close to being accomplished. Sheesh.  Damned right wing conservatives.

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style: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour. Why $12? That’s only $24K/year, you piker! Why not $50? Hell, why not $100? Given that Bush-supporting, right-wing morons have been posting that, when adjusting for inflation and accounting for the price of gas 25 years ago, gasoline is practically free—-no, that consumers of gasoline are being handed wads of cash by station operators as they fill up—-then the minimum wage adjustment you figured ought to be just about right. Given the cost and price of things 25 years ago, of course. Were you going to actually address the minimum wage issue before you got distracted on your little rant?

Have someone hold your hand and point out to you that I did indeed address the minimum wage issue. — Bush supporters beware:  ignorance is its own reinforcement.

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We should gradually raise the minimum wage to $12 an hour.  

If you do this then two things will immediately happen. 1).  Half the low wage jobs will be cut and those who filled them will be laid off.  Thus the unemployment rate will swell tenfold due to the fact that the business world cannot afford to pay a full workforce. Waiting lines will grow longer, unemployment lines will grow longer and businesses will shut down.  Not exactly the result you were looking for.  You seem to think that each business is required to have "X" number of workers.  Double the minimum wage and most businesses will then lay off half the workers, leaving you with a "X/2" workforce that is doing "Y x 2" amount of work. 2).  A Big Mac at McDonalds will now cost you $14 dollars.  Everything else will increase in price also as businesses attempt to pay what little work force they can afford.  All products will still be difficult for the minimum wage earner to afford and impossible for the unemployed. You forget.  Businesses don’t pay the wages of their employees, the consumers do.  Increase the wage of workers and the retailers will increase the price of their products and cut the workforce to be able to afford manpower costs.  The profits will remain the same, we’ll just pay more. You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that the minimum wage is some arbitrary number made up by some guy in a business suit in Washington.  The minimum wage is determined by what the market will allow.  That person flipping burgers at Burger Master is earning what he/she is earning because of what you and I are willing to pay for a Super Cheese Deluxe, fries and a Coke, the cost of the raw materials and the cost of running the business.  Not to mention that flipping burgers is not a job that is designed to pay a living wage, anyway. If that person wants to earn a living wage, he/she needs to put some effort into learning a trade and working for it.  It’s not a coincidence that a vast majority of fast food workers are high school students.  It’s because it is basically a chance for them to earn extra money and gain valuable work experience.  Last time I checked, McDonalds didn’t have a retirement plan for it’s fry cooks. It is not the government’s job to make sure everybody gets by.  It is its job to make sure that everybody has the opportunity to succeed if they wish.  Some people don’t want to put forth the effort required to do it. Yol Bolsum, Grendel. "I wish there was a knob on the computer to turn up the intelligence. There’s a button labeled "Brightness" but it doesn’t seem to work."

Question:

I am 41 years old. I recently obtained a bachelors degree in accounting from an East Coast University. I already have a career that will allow me the time to start my own business. I figure that starting my own business will be my best shot, since I only had a 2.67 GPA in college. I am single with no dependents. I am willing to move almost anywhere. Are there any parts of the USA that are great for starting an accounting business? I was also thinking about taking the exam to become an Enrolled Agent. Which part of the country would be best for starting a tax business? My present career pays well, but I just figure that if I had a business to supplement my present income I would be doing great. Does obtaining a Masters degree in Taxation do more for you than taking the Enrolled Agents exam? Any advice will be appreciated.      Thank You,

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Are there any parts of the USA that are great for starting an accounting business?

From my experience and my observations, the best place is where you have the most contacts.  Maybe where you live now, or in your home town where friends, associates, family, etc can help build your business.  Not to mention there is already some form of built-in name recognition. Which part of the country would be best for starting a tax business?

See above. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

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Question:

Hi, I am 33, have 10 years experience and an MBA degree, and am thinking about going into managerial accounting. Is it too late? Thanks. cst

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Hi, I am 33, have 10 years experience and an MBA degree, and am thinking about going into managerial accounting. Is it too late? Thanks. cst

Certainly not! Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

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Question:

Hi I am an electrician who has nearly finished a big nstallation ( for me) the Materials have come to over

Question:

Hi everyone.  I’m a junior high wood shop teacher, at least I used to be one. About 5 years ago the district that I work for "phased out" the wood shop in favor of a technology laboratory. (Does everyone know what a technology laboratory is?)   At first I thought it was okay, but the more I use it, the more I detest it (loathe might be a better word) and feel that we are really short changing our students by getting rid of shop, and home economics too.  I could go on for many pages (which I’d be glad to do if anyone is interested) but I’d like to start off by asking does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob.

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does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob.

Hi Bob, My wife works at a high school that has done the same thing as yours: they "paid" for their computer labs by basically eliminating all their shop classes. What a joke! I really appreciate my computer for communication purposes, but all they are teaching the kids on the computers is how to be hi-tech clerks. Oh, there are a few destined to be techies and programmers, but the bulk of them will be clerks. I had wood, metal and handicraft shops while in junior high school in Southern California. Thank heavens! That, and the love affair with large moving mechanical objects called cars, was the basis for my current ability to solve problems, and build things from scratch, as needed. . .It is a real shame that this current cultural policy of assuming that all the U.S. needs is people who can manipulate keyboards is being foisted off on this generation and those to follow. Kim

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        Greetings and Salutations.         Well between THIS news group, and, rec.crafts.metalworking, there are probably megabytes of stored discussion about this.  I tend to agree with you, and, see only one, short-term benefit to this.  It means that it will mean permanent employment for all of us that can (and the few of us that are learning how to) do this sort of skilled work in metal and wood.  It will also cut down on the number of times we hit up against some twit saying "Geeze…why are you charging THAT much for <blivet.  I could do it for myself for about 1/3 that cost!"         In the long run, it will mean that America see a continuing erosion of its ability to be self-sufficient.  It will mean that more and more manufacturing will move to other countries, and, employers that remain IN the US will be unable to find competent workers.  Can America survive turning into a country of White-Collar workers who are not able to make basic tools?  I think not.  While it is not a terrible thing if a given person does not know EXACTLY what is going on inside their computer/car/etc, it makes problem resolution a bit easier if they have moved beyond the level of turning the key on and pointing it in a given direction.         Part of the problem is the snotty attitudes that many Americans have about people that work with their hands.  We have had a couple of generations now of folks that put College folks on a pedestal,and, view these folks that work mainly with their minds as being "better" than those that work with their hands.         Part of the problem is the liability issues.  America is continually overrun with more and more lawyers, and, more and more folks believing in the motto of "I got hurt…SOMEBODY ELSE is going to pay".  hence, even if some idiot ignores all safety instructions and warnings, and, runs their fingers through a table saw, or nails a foot to the floor while horsing around, the school system gets sued. With the general mind-set of the populace these days, a LOT of awards get made that should either not be as BIG as they are, or, should not be made at all.         When folks used to make Polish jokes, I would look at them and say "well, let me ask you…can you speak Polish?".  As the answer was almost always "well…no".  I would retort with "How does it feel to be stupider than a Pole, then?"  It is important for all of us to respect skills in ALL areas.  There is nothing that makes a heart surgeon any better a person than a car mechanic.  EIther can be vital to your life, depending on what is failing.         Regards         Dave Mundt Hi everyone.  I’m a junior high wood shop teacher, at least I used to be one. About 5 years ago the district that I work for "phased out" the wood shop in favor of a technology laboratory. (Does everyone know what a technology laboratory is?)   At first I thought it was okay, but the more I use it, the more I detest it (loathe might be a better word) and feel that we are really short changing our students by getting rid of shop, and home economics too.  I could go on for many pages (which I’d be glad to do if anyone is interested) but I’d like to start off by asking does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob.

Remove the mapson. from the email address to get to me… I hate Cullers who gather from newsgroups Visit my home page at http://www.esper.com/xvart/index.html

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If what you are describing is the same as I have seen in WV and PA schools then I think that there is a misrepresentation. In these Districts they still have a Vo-Tech school where those interested in technical education such as carpentry, metal working, auto repair/body, etc. can obtain a good basis in these fields. The tech labs are designed to provide younger kids in the Jr. Highs and Middle schools a reasonably good sampling of various technical fields that may be of interest to them as future careers or might interest them in the sciences behind these fields. The labs that I have been in include hydrolics, robotics, electronics, electrical (two different things), and other fields. The kids go from one station to another spending 3 to 6 weeks on each. Woodshop as a general subject for those not interested in it for a career is simply teaching a hobby. Granted, so is pottery and numerous other "subjects" that seem to be able to maintain funding and time in the curriculum after shop is dropped. Maybe woodshop should be redefined as an art so that it can compete in the liberal mindset with pottery, music, etc. However, if our schools are going to return to a focus on preparing kids for careers after school or for higher eductation, the curriculum needs to be focused on such. As long as those with an interest can still obtain a quality techical education in the Vo-Tech programs, I am not sure that woodshop as a curricular subject matter in the academic program makes good use of limited time in school. Dave Hall – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob. Hi Bob, My wife works at a high school that has done the same thing as yours: they "paid" for their computer labs by basically eliminating all their shop classes. What a joke! I really appreciate my computer for communication purposes, but all they are teaching the kids on the computers is how to be hi-tech clerks. Oh, there are a few destined to be techies and programmers, but the bulk of them will be clerks. I had wood, metal and handicraft shops while in junior high school in Southern California. Thank heavens! That, and the love affair with large moving mechanical objects called cars, was the basis for my current ability to solve problems, and build things from scratch, as needed. . .It is a real shame that this current cultural policy of assuming that all the U.S. needs is people who can manipulate keyboards is being foisted off on this generation and those to follow. Kim

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A large school district in our city has reduced the woodworking and metal shops to three with two instructors dividing their time between them.  An instructor I was talking to was told it was a combination of liability and the redirecting of the curricula toward high technology (spelled computers). He couldn’t understand because there was always a shortage of spaces available compared to the students wanting to take the classes. I have always felt that common sense can be gained through practical experience and woodshop is a great place for it.  It also teaches self sufficiency and practical knowledge for the future homeowner and family man. And, it is a good springboard for the future professional woodworker.  I guess these things are no longer important. Dismayed and Disillusioned, Preston — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone.  I’m a junior high wood shop teacher, at least I used to be one. About 5 years ago the district that I work for "phased out" the wood shop in favor of a technology laboratory. (Does everyone know what a technology laboratory is?)   At first I thought it was okay, but the more I use it, the more I detest it (loathe might be a better word) and feel that we are really short changing our students by getting rid of shop, and home economics too. I could go on for many pages (which I’d be glad to do if anyone is interested) but I’d like to start off by asking does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob.

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Woodshop as a general subject for those not interested in it for a career is simply teaching a hobby.

It teaches much more than "simply" a hobby, although hobbies are certainly in decline these days. It teaches of the union between hand and eye, it teaches practical lessons in physics, in other words, it teaches much more than how to nail two boards together. . .Linguists have long been aware of the direct link between the sensitivity of digital manipulation and the ability for refined speech and critical thinking. As long as those with an interest can still obtain a quality techical education in the Vo-Tech programs, I am not sure that woodshop as a curricular subject matter in the academic program makes good use of limited time in school.

I am not speaking exclusively of producing carpenters, but rather human beings with the ability to think critically, to take a hands on approach to life, rather than thinking all things come from the "store." Training people to be fodder for corporate globalism is not my idea of what it’s all about. . .IMHO. Kim Kim

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I agree completely. — CW KC7NOD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Woodshop as a general subject for those not interested in it for a career is simply teaching a hobby. It teaches much more than "simply" a hobby, although hobbies are certainly in decline these days. It teaches of the union between hand and eye, it teaches practical lessons in physics, in other words, it teaches much more than how to nail two boards together. . .Linguists have long been aware of the direct link between the sensitivity of digital manipulation and the ability for refined speech and critical thinking. As long as those with an interest can still obtain a quality techical education in the Vo-Tech programs, I am not sure that woodshop as a curricular subject matter in the academic program makes good use of limited time in school. I am not speaking exclusively of producing carpenters, but rather human beings with the ability to think critically, to take a hands on approach to life, rather than thinking all things come from the "store." Training people to be fodder for corporate globalism is not my idea of what it’s all about. . .IMHO. Kim Kim

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I could go on for many pages (which I’d be glad to do if anyone is interested)

Please don’t.  If this is not just another troll, you are likely a US teacher, or perhaps an Ontario teacher.  They follow closely behind all of the mistakes made in the US, since they can’t believe that anyone could be that dumb and feel they must try them for themselves. Actually, the last part is not quite true.  They do it because the diplomats in both government, ministry, and board of ed and yuppy teachers (who really want to get the Hell out of the classroom into the principal’s office and board office at double their salary) need some sort of novel idea to show that they are useful and doing something.  It doesn’t matter what.  They just need "something", so they change for the sake of change. It was made pretty clear that the real education of Joe Average was down the chute when they took him away from (sold all of them) the wood and metal lathe and stuck him in front of the computer typing in WordImperfect.  Just what we need:  a whole bunch of bearded secretaries who can’t knock a nail into a piece of wood if they had all day, or add 2+2 without a calculator. Dan.

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Dave Hall writes: Woodshop as a general subject for those not interested in it for a career is simply teaching a hobby. Granted, so is pottery and numerous other "subjects" that seem to be snip Maybe woodshop should be redefined as an art so that it can compete in the liberal mindset with pottery, music, etc.

Say what?  As a certified liberal woodworker I find your statement absolutely asinine. Too, I’ve been lucky enough to never live in an area where pottery is taught and woodworking is not. Charlie Self Word Worker

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All you have to do now is go to your local convenience store or fast food joint and give the kid behind the counter exact change,or the change above the large bill you just gave them and watch the confusion reign on their faces as they try to figure this strange event out, especially when the ‘puter goes down. Heck, kids in elementary school carry calculators arond with them now. What’s the world coming to. When in High School, I had college-level accounting and only had the old type of calculator; the one with the big handle on the side. I could add up a whole page of debits and credits faster without the calculator than most of my classmates with a calculator. In house building and commercial construction, one is always adding up a series of measurements, often with different fractions,ie; 9′-8 9/16" + 16′-4 1/4" + 7′-0 3/8" = 33′-1 3/16" Of course everyone knows that you have to transmute everything in adding fractions to the common denominator. Well…off to work I go. Got to add up those hurs and tell y boss to keep writing that check til his hand gets tired, then I’ll take over…ha ha.           Mike G.  

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What is happening, in effect, is the complete devaluing (even more than it has been already) of manual labor.  By "manual labor" I mean physical manipulation of things, not just hauling boxes. People would rather have their kids work for minimum wage in a call center on a computer than be a diesel mechanic, because working with your hands is so "gauche" nowadays. Personally, I really hope that my three kids seriously look at vocational school rather than university.  Companies are desperate to find skilled tool-and-die makers, and they make good coin.  I am trying to keep the image of "mechanic as skilled worker" instead of "dirty handed grunt labor" strong in my kids. And now we teach them in school that working with your hands is secondary and unimportant, compared to "keyboarding skills". Sigh. Before you buy.

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The only counter I will make to this is I was raised in a small farming community in Oregon and in the early 70’s I wanted to do electronics and the only choices I had was metal and woodworking. Mind I love woodworking and the classes didn’t really improve my skills because I have a great dad who showed me how to do stuff. I ended up working for a TV repair place and learning electronics kind of on the job (part time). What I find lacking when I talk to my child that she has no interest in learning anything about how stuff works. To me that is the shame on the parents about not getting the kids excited about discovering how things work. — Just my thoughts……Roydan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone.  I’m a junior high wood shop teacher, at least I used to be one. About 5 years ago the district that I work for "phased out" the wood shop in favor of a technology laboratory. (Does everyone know what a technology laboratory is?)   At first I thought it was okay, but the more I use it, the more I detest it (loathe might be a better word) and feel that we are really short changing our students by getting rid of shop, and home economics too.  I could go on for many pages (which I’d be glad to do if anyone is interested) but I’d like to start off by asking does any other reader have any experience or opinions on this process that our schools are going through?  Looking forward to hearing from any and all.  Bob.

Response:

What is happening, in effect, is the complete devaluing (even more than it has been already) of manual labor.  By "manual labor" I mean physical manipulation of things, not just hauling boxes.

Quite the opposite, actually. Our high standard of living is due to automation and its affect on productivity. A car assembler today is many times as productive as a car assembler of the 1920s…but a custom furniture maker is no more productive than his cousin from 80 years ago. Yet he expects to make a decent living, too, despite the fact his productivity makes his product a luxury rather than a necessity. People would rather have their kids work for minimum wage in a call center on a computer than be a diesel mechanic, because working with your hands is so "gauche" nowadays.

Given that being a skilled tradesman pays a lot more than minimum wage, I wonder where you got this idea.

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My daughter goes to me just recently "Dad, why should I work as a plumber when I can go to college, get my commercial flight license, aerospace degree and not get that dirty and have to work crazy hours." She does like to work with her hands (ie. car engines, woodworking, building rockets etc…) but would rather do it as a hobby. In her eyes school shop was a waste, she had already learned it at home. I wish I had the solution and I do not believe that there is a single answer. I do feel that all school districts should have a votec though. Even if one or two districts have to get together to fund it. Just my 2 cents worth ChrisW NE N. Carolina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is happening, in effect, is the complete devaluing (even more than it has been already) of manual labor.  By "manual labor" I mean physical manipulation of things, not just hauling boxes. People would rather have their kids work for minimum wage in a call center on a computer than be a diesel mechanic, because working with your hands is so "gauche" nowadays. Personally, I really hope that my three kids seriously look at vocational school rather than university.  Companies are desperate to find skilled tool-and-die makers, and they make good coin.  I am trying to keep the image of "mechanic as skilled worker" instead of "dirty handed grunt labor" strong in my kids. And now we teach them in school that working with your hands is secondary and unimportant, compared to "keyboarding skills". Sigh. Before you buy.

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My daughter goes to me just recently "Dad, why should I work as a plumber when I can go to college, get my commercial flight license, aerospace degree and not get that dirty and have to work crazy hours." She does like

I hope you enlightened her about crazy flight hours, double shifts, and overnighters in the airline/aerospace businesses, Chris. to work with her hands (ie. car engines, woodworking, building rockets etc…) but would rather do it as a hobby. In her eyes school shop was a waste, she had already learned it at home.

Probably a valid point, but she could have learned more 1) from a teacher other than Dad, and 2) by helping others learn. I love my dad and learned lots from him, but others had other info which was just as important. I wish I had the solution and I do not believe that there is a single answer. I do feel that all school districts should have a votec though. Even if one or two districts have to get together to fund it.

Agreed. These are skills which should never die. I took wood shop, metal shop, mechanical drawing, and basic aviation in school and feel that I’m a better man from each of the four classes. Unfortunately, the term "Homo Sapiens" is a goal, not a description.                                 —-                                       http://www.diversify.com    Web Design for YOUR Business!        

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How many examples of stupidity are we willing to accept from the public school systems. MHO: All school administrators, board members, many teachers and the majority of the parents are morons! To prove my point compare the language of the Gettysburg Address to any public announcement from the schools. Want better schools? Kick the Federal Government out and return to local control. Tell the liberals to go to Hell and start educating.

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Well, MY daughter decided to forgo college (after 2 1/2 yrs) to go to work in my industry ( trade show exhibit installations). Jon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My daughter goes to me just recently "Dad, why should I work as a plumber when I can go to college, get my commercial flight license, aerospace degree and not get that dirty and have to work crazy hours." She does like to work with her hands (ie. car engines, woodworking, building rockets etc…) but would rather do it as a hobby. In her eyes school shop was a waste, she had already learned it at home. I wish I had the solution and I do not believe that there is a single answer. I do feel that all school districts should have a votec though. Even if one or two districts have to get together to fund it. Just my 2 cents worth ChrisW NE N. Carolina What is happening, in effect, is the complete devaluing (even more than it has been already) of manual labor.  By "manual labor" I mean physical manipulation of things, not just hauling boxes. People would rather have their kids work for minimum wage in a call center on a computer than be a diesel mechanic, because working with your hands is so "gauche" nowadays. Personally, I really hope that my three kids seriously look at vocational school rather than university.  Companies are desperate to find skilled tool-and-die makers, and they make good coin.  I am trying to keep the image of "mechanic as skilled worker" instead of "dirty handed grunt labor" strong in my kids. And now we teach them in school that working with your hands is secondary and unimportant, compared to "keyboarding skills". Sigh. Before you buy.

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<<Heavy Snips What is happening, in effect, is the complete devaluing (even more than it has been already) of manual labor. Quite the opposite, actually. Our high standard of living is due to automation and its affect on productivity. A car assembler today is many times as productive as a car assembler of the 1920s…but a custom furniture maker is no more productive than his cousin from 80 years ago. Yet he expects to make a decent living, too, despite the fact his productivity makes his product a luxury rather than a necessity.

Hmm… Clarity problem.  I wasn’t talking about product when I mentioned "value".  I was thinking purely along the lines that being a "dirty hands" kind of trade is not held in as high a regard as it used to be, be it plumber, electrician, HVAC, whatever.  I was not attempting to imply that merely because someone works with their hands that their work *should* be valuable. People would rather have their kids work for minimum wage in a call center on a computer than be a diesel mechanic, because working with your hands is so "gauche" nowadays. Given that being a skilled tradesman pays a lot more than minimum wage, I wonder where you got this idea.

Uh, okay.  Given that when a child stands up and says "Dad, I want to be an (X)", parents initial reaction is usually not to whip out the "average wages per profession" tables and gauge potential incomes.  My kids could make a Jillion as a (insert dangerous high risk job here) but it doesn’t mean that I’d be instantly happy if they decided to do so. There are attitudes and perceptions attached to any occupation, and theses have changed in recent years to weigh more positively on "brain" jobs as opposed to "hands" jobs, independent of wages. –Kirby Before you buy.

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kerf writes: Want better schools? Kick the Federal Government out and return to local control. Tell the liberals to go to Hell and start educating.

We got a local problem following those strictures, kerf.  Us liberals are so much in the minority here that the school system has had to get screwed up by itself.  Or was that by the conservatives? Charlie Self Word Worker

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and pecked: kerf writes: Want better schools? Kick the Federal Government out and return to local control. Tell the liberals to go to Hell and start educating. We got a local problem following those strictures, kerf.  Us liberals are so much in the minority here that the school system has had to get screwed up by itself.  Or was that by the conservatives?

That’s "We liberals" (you guys, not me) and the system was surely done-in it by said minority. The conservatives only screw ‘em up then they follow the SCRIPtures, and we all know they’re kept out of schools. <bseg obww: Are new trees killed to produce revisionist history books? Unfortunately, the term "Homo Sapiens" is a goal, not a description.                                 —-                                       http://www.diversify.com    Web Design for YOUR Business!        

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Most school boards and administrations are controlled by flaming liberals. Their solution is to throw more and more money into the system. Not so the education will improve but because that will ensure their continued employment and justify their useless existance. How was it that until the early 60’s the US managed to produce functionally literate individuals? My solution is radical. Return to the classical education of math, language (including Latin), science, history and the arts. End the open campus  and make achievement mandatory for advancement. School should be tough, otherwise just give everyone a diploma and let industry worry about it. Another trend that just frosts my monkeys is the way media and ploiticians pander to the children. Seeking answers from them to solve the world’s problems. These are children who are in or barely out of puberty. Their world is videos and baggy pants. No wonder the world is screwed up. The president looks for solutions from kids on MTV. And, what’s the most memorable question the kids asked Clinton? Boxers or briefs?   Can’t you guys see how screwed up the whole mess is?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many examples of stupidity are we willing to accept from the public school systems. MHO: All school administrators, board members, many teachers and the majority of the parents are morons! To prove my point compare the language of the Gettysburg Address to any public announcement from the schools. Want better schools? Kick the Federal Government out and return to local control. Tell the liberals to go to Hell and start educating.

A wise and well reasoned analysis of the issues and possible corrective actions. A product of the public school system, I am sure. Dave Hall

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Most school boards and administrations are controlled by flaming liberals. Their solution is to throw more and more money into the system. Not so the education will improve but because that will ensure their continued employment and justify their useless existance. How was it that until the early 60’s the US managed to produce functionally literate individuals?

If you had the strength of your own convictions, you’d kill your television.

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Unfortunately, the major power is neither the feds nor the local boards, but the NEA and its teacher college system.  As a previously degreed individual enrolled in a teacher certification curriculum, I was sickened by the number of times the future educators asked the profs either of two questions: "Do we have to know this for the exam?"                           "What does this have to do with being a teacher?" The gray hair could only keep saying life is cumulative, and nothing you learn is ever wasted.  Not that they listened.  It wasn’t going to be on the exam.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Want better schools? Kick the Federal Government out and return to local control. Tell the liberals to go to Hell and start educating. We got a local problem following those strictures, kerf.  Us liberals are so much in the minority here that the school system has had to get screwed up by itself.  Or was that by the conservatives?

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Another trend that just frosts my monkeys is the way media and ploiticians pander to the children. Seeking answers from them to solve the world’s problems. These are children who are in or barely out of puberty. Their world is videos and baggy pants.

Oh that takes me back… I haven’t had a good frosted monkey in years. Probably not the same any more, though. Multinational conglomerate that doesn’t know the difference between a good frosted monkey and a simple chilled ape. Ah, well, best to breed your own, I suppose. No wonder the world is screwed up. The president looks for solutions from kids on MTV. And, what’s the most memorable question the kids asked Clinton? Boxers or briefs? Can’t you guys see how screwed up the whole mess is?

I can see someone who selectively remembers one stupid, offhand question asked by the MTV kids and conveniently ignores their other serious, penetrating, non-journalist questions. You’re biased if you say the glass is half full or half empty. It’s just half a glass of water, nothing more or less. — Guy Finney

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Question:

>I’m really frustrated right now, and not looking forward to this >coming week.

Well, I wish you lived closer – we could go out for a frustration drink or cup of coffee.  :-) Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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>>>gplen…@aol.comlitter (Geri and Brian) writes >My question has more to do with this second mediation, which BM instigated – >she states it would have been ordered anyway.  Why would the court order a >mediation after the court evaluation has already started, when the first court >evaluation was brought about by the initial mediation’s failure?  This timing >seems very odd.  We have a call in to the court evaluator to try to find out >what the real story is – hopefully we will hear on Monday.<<<<

In California, mediation prior to the hearing is required by law except in very limited circumstances.  If they haven’t been to mediation in a year, the law would require they try it, even if an evaluation is underway. The only way (potentially) out of it is to request a hearing w/ the Judge and ask that mediation be waived. That is more expensive, frustrating and time consuming than just attending the mediation would be. Besides… if BM is that unreasonable, that might come out in the mediation report too. The end of the story for dad is basically that the evalutation will carry the most weight. The mediation is a "necessary" he’s got to do per the law, and if he asks not to do it HE might look like he’s unwilling to compromise.  If he goes into it "expecting" BM to be unreasonable — in the sense that he is prepared for that — it will be easier for him to keep his cool and harder for her to push his buttons.  So if the mediator can’t get it removed from calendar (due to the evaluation), just go and make the best of it.  It "might" even work.  :-) Helene P. Dreyer, Attorney at Law Riverside County, California Divorce, Appeals, QDROs, Family Law, Adoptions ********  www.dreyerlaw.com **********

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Us too. NCP as ATM. Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Geri and Brian wrote: > Oh my – we truly are dealing with the same person, TC!

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> Damn – now I’m gonna have to get up early enough to drive >to Starbucks…

Gosh, at the Starbucks out here, they only have flavored syrups.  (The caramel is heavenly.) Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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We talked the mediation v. evaluation thing over a lot.  We ended up kind of doing a compromise.  BM is in violation of a couple of court orders, and my husband wanted that addressed.  So he wrote BM and told her if she comes into compliance with the court orders, he will consider mediation. Then he talked to the court evaluator, yesterday.  (She SEEMS more personable than the one we had last year.)  It turns out that the mediation was not going to be ordered by the court – it is a BM instigated thing only, so BM was either wrong or lied about that. She was also rather peeved that BM wanted this eleventh hour thing, because she is having to rearrange scheduling of meetings, etc., if it happens. My husband told her he would have been open to this months ago, more than now when the evaluation process is already underway, and the evaluator said she told BM that very thing – that she should have thought of this earlier (but she would go along with it if that is what we want). So, that is where we are at the moment.  The evaluation is still set to go, though we might do the evaluation AND a mediation.  Meanwhile, we are working on a parenting plan to present, since this evaluator wants us to come prepared with one. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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Vicky, I am following up my own post here (lame).  Brian came back and read your post.  Now he has a question for me to put on here and see if this can be mediated: How do a person reconcile the state’s policy of constant and continuous contact with a parent, while that parent also potentially poses risk factors like mental illness, previous history violent behaviors etc.  How can a mediation determine how those things can be balanced appropriately? He is feeling like the neutral third party (evaluator) has to look at all of our stuff and make that determination, because we are not sure ourselves.  (He has been doing a lot of research on how people with a history of violent behavior tend to continue being violent and it is kind of scary stuff.)  He is also feeling like the BM breaking court orders, and whether or not she has completed her court ordered counseling needs to be addressed, and it doesn’t sound like that can be done in mediation, can it? At least he is not going to make a decision one way or the other until after he talks with the evaluator. As much as we can guess, by the dates of the various documents we have gotten and the time frame of events, we think maybe when we hired the service to transport my SD for the exchange yesterday, and BM flipped out, maybe she had hoped to mediate that, but since the date available for mediation was too late, decided to see if the whole case can be mediated.  Who knows.  Maybe we will have some more answers tomorrow. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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>He should *always* try.  The worst thing that can happen >is that it’ll break down and the evaluator will make the decision.

Thank you for the wise words.  My husband is out making copies of more of this endless paperwork, but I am going to let him read this when he gets home. Tomorrow [hopefully] he will be talking to the evaluator and find out what exactly is going on.  He has a large list of things he wants addressed and feels that an evaluation is the only way to be sure to get them heard.  Maybe if he thinks he can get these things addressed during mediaton he would be a little more open to it. I have already discussed with him that if he puts this in the court’s hands, he may not like the outcome.  I hope he is prepared if that is the way he wants to do it. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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>I got a set of those in the mail the other day. 8 pages for *me* and 8 for >Karl.

If we get the same ones we had last year, the ones we fill out for the evaluator are not that complex.  I am talking about over two feet of documentation to sift through, summarize and prioritize.  We already had a running start on it, but we were not expecting the evaluation to start quite so soon.  It is a little earlier than last time, and they have continued our case anyway. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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>- the NCP does not need to be informed of dr’s visits, shool report >cards, scool pictures, school or church programs, or any other events >- she can refuse certified mail, and throw away other attempts at >correspondence with her >the children’s feelings regarding extended >visitation are manipulated by means of statements said to the children >to foster unhappiness and fear >- the children should not have any sort of a close relationship to >their step-mother or her family. > the NCP has no rights or decision making power regarding the >children >- the children are hers, "and posession is nine tenths of the law" >Can you set penalties in mediation if an agreement is violated? >What kind of proof is required?  Do you have to go to court to prove >that she’s violated the agreement?

Oh my – we truly are dealing with the same person, TC! Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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In a previous article, T.C. said: : :>You don’t mediate for changes in behavior.  You don’t mediate to :>control the other person.  You mediate to solve a problem, and that :>problem is much smaller than the outlines of another person’s :>behavior.   : :So if the other parent truly believes things like : [snip CP's attempts to cut NCP from child's life] :How do you mediate with someone who truly believes that the NCP should :just "go away" but send the check each month?   : You lay out these differences in philosophy in detail on the table, without judgement.  What is in the children’s best interests, disregarding, for the moment, the parents’ interests?  You get her to say that biodad is irrelevant to their development.  Then the mediator should point out that taking it to court will surely result in much different conclusions on the judge’s part.  I can tell my clients what New York’s official position is on the place of both parents in a child’s life, and the basis upon which the judge will probably make hir decision.  I can tell my clients that they can collaborate to find the best solution for all of them (children and parents) or they can leave it up to the judge who will most certainly try to be even-handed, and will end up handing down a judgement that may not fit anyone’s needs or wants.  That the parents are the best judges of what their children need, and a judge will not understand those children as well as the parents do.  I continually emphasize that settling things in mediation keeps the *power* in the parents’ hands.  That word, power, has a strong and important effect. :She follows most court orders to the letter, and anything left open :for interpretation is interpreted in her favor or we have to try to :get another court date to get things more specific. : The parenting plan is official when it is filed with the court and approved by the judge.  It is an enforceable order.   Some provisions may be included in an agreement that are *not* enforceable.  I don’t have a problem with that, although I do inform clients that this or that is not enforceable, but is a valuable statement of values.  I always put in a clause that says that neither parent will say or do anything to diminish the status of the other parent in the children’s eyes, and that each parent will do what is necessary to encourage a loving and close bond between the children and the other parent.  We do not specify what those things could be, but we may discuss them in the sessions.  Depending on where you live, this kind of statement may actually be enforceable, under alienation laws, but I am very hazy on this.  (Remember I’m not a lawyer, and none of this is legal advice!) :How do you mediate with that?  Can you really mediate how many pairs f underwear are required for a visit?   Yeah, but it would be kind of silly.   :Can you really mediate that :she not make any derogatory statements about the NCP in front of the :kids?   Yes. :Can you set penalties in mediation if an agreement is violated? No.  That’s way beyond the scope of a mediated agreement.  For that, you’d have to go back to court, and I’m not sure that "penalties" would apply.  But there again, you’re going past my expertise here; the court can enforce your agreement.   :What kind of proof is required?  Do you have to go to court to prove :that she’s violated the agreement? : Yes, you do, and I don’t know what is considered proof.  I’d suppose that it would depend on the infraction and the court. :Vicki – please help me to understand how you mediate these issues.   Your mediator (I typed that "medicator" first; that must mean something!) can tell you more.  You can caucus with your mediator if you have reason to distrust the process.  Your mediator, though, may be able to get through to biomom that, even if she feels that biodad is irrelevant to the kids’ lives, the courts will not feel that way, and she stands to lose a whole lot more by entering into an agreement in bad faith than if she participates in the process and sticks to her agreement.  The mediator may be able to convince her that her best hope lies in collaborating with you to provide the kids with everything they need.  If previous court orders have gone against her, she may have every reason to be convinced. I can’t guarantee that mediation’s going to work, of course.  But it’s amazing how well it can succeed, especially if you have a skillful mediator. Vicki — Does it make any sense to say that I decompensate between paradigms?  Probably not.      -Jane Lawrence

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In a previous article, T.C. said: :Our question is how do you mediate for dramatic changes in behavior? :We don’t believe it’s possible, but we shall see.  Perhaps Vicki (sp?) :can shed some light – the subject header should draw her in fast :enough <grin> : <snork!>  Wha…?  Is it time to get up? You don’t mediate for changes in behavior.  You don’t mediate to control the other person.  You mediate to solve a problem, and that problem is much smaller than the outlines of another person’s behavior.   The way I approach things is that the parties *always* have interests in common.  Always.  Those needs need to be articulated.  That’s where I always start:  How will we know when we are finished?  What principles need to govern our work here?  Interests that always come up are, of course, the best interests of the children.  (We don’t define that immediately, but everyone always agrees that they want their children to be damaged as little as possible.)  Other interests that come up are financial stability, the need for both parties to maintain some kind of standard of living.  There are lots of others. But if we start with a set of overarching principles that we post on newsprint at the beginning, it sets the tone.  The only place that I feel justified in getting prescriptive is in emphasizing that kids need both parents.  Period.  (I will also say here that I have never dealt with any parents who were abusive or criminally neglectful.  I’m not sure how I’d handle that.)  Mediators are supposed to be neutral, and I am, but I will take the position of the kids’ advocate.  (One of my colleagues does not.  His most nightmarish mediation involved a couple with 5 children.  They fought and argued over the older four. The fifth, each of them just dismissed with "Oh, you can have him." He had to take repeated showers after than mediation to feel clean again.) Anyway, you don’t have to tell people how they need to behave.  You need to outline outcomes for the kids. There are many ways to achieve the same goals. :As for the domestic violence question – DH had to fill out a :questionaire regarding violence.  Apparently they can do some sort of :deal where both parties are in separate rooms and the mediator walks :back and forth with each offer and counter offer. "Shuttle mediation."  Not the best way, but it works. Vicki — Does it make any sense to say that I decompensate between paradigms?  Probably not.      -Jane Lawrence

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> Meanwhile, we work on this paperwork for the evaluator.  Uck.  It feels like > the world’s biggest term paper.

I got a set of those in the mail the other day. 8 pages for *me* and 8 for Karl. It took me 3 days to do mine, because I couldn’t get my head to think clearly. And Karl, well his is still lying on the desk unfinished. Actually I don’t think he has even looked at them. I know that they were mailed seprately, with instructions to be in the person’s own handwriting, and mine said for Karl’s and mine to be done seprately without discussing our answers to the questions. The part that confused me was, I got them, but BM’s boyfriend, who lives with her, didn’t. Explain that one will ya? But being the good girl I was, I filled them out. I will mail mine back tomorrow and hopefully Karl will get his done so I can mail his.That way the GAL knows that they were done seprately. Sharyn

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>And having gone through all this, I think what Merrie told you over a year >ago is still true. There’s a better than good chance you’ll end up with >50-50 custody of your SD indefinitely

I don’t even think that would be so bad, if we could find some way to make decisions with BM without every little tiny thing becoming a huge ordeal, and if she could find some way to just be a good mom to her child and quit bugging us.  She has been putting on quite a show of concerned mom in the past few months, and I truly hope for my SD’s sake that she continues to do so after the court’s eye is no longer on her. I am very, very tired of all of this warfare.  It is not doing anyone any good, least of all my SD. Sometimes I wish it were possible to take my SD on an extended trip somewhere and leave the two bioparents to do all the battling. Then we could come home when it was over. (Sorry, everyone, to be grunching – I am PMSing and also I think the fact that all of this has to occur over the holidays just sucks.) Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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In a previous article, gplen…@aol.comlitter (Geri and Brian) said: :Well, we are having some interesting thoughts and discussions at our house :right now.  My husband is more of the mind of letting the court evaluator hear :both our sides and making the decision.  I am more of the mind that he should :go to the mediation and see what she has to say – it can always be stopped :couldn’t it? : WARNING!  I have no idea what regulations court-ordered-or-supervised mediation labors under.  All of my experience is with voluntary, private mediation, so it is from that viewpoint that I answer. However, true mediation is always voluntary, which means that either party to the mediation can stop it at any time.  And your husband is nuts if he thinks that it would be better to let someone else make the decisions.  He should *always* try.  The worst thing that can happen is that it’ll break down and the evaluator will make the decision. :How would asking for BM to have a psych evaluation fit into a mediation :scenario?  My husband’s psychologist has read BM’s letters and of course, has :heard our version, at least, of her antics, and agrees that she probably has :some sort of personality disorder.  Of course, he can’t make a diagnosis like :that for court purposes.  Our concern is more that she get some help, and :perhaps some medication, and then maybe she might be somewhat more easy to deal :with – at least for my SD’s sake. : You can request a "caucus" with the mediator, which is a private meeting held with the knowledge of the other party.  The mediator will then caucus with biomom, too, but not to reveal what you discussed. At that time you can raise any of these delicate issues and discuss with the mediator good ways to handle it.  Remember that in a real mediation, you call the the shots.  The mediator is there as an expert in problem-solving, to help you figure out ways to communicate, but you and biomom call the shots.  (By "you" I guess I should be saying "DH" since he’s the other bioparent.) :In a mediation, who can ask for something like that?  Also, what about things :like telling us where she is going to take SD on vacation?  We were worried :sick during the earthquake, because we had no idea where SD was.  (We don’t :give a rat’s patootie about where BM is going on vacation, or invading her :privacy – we just want to know where SD is if there is an emergency.) : There is no reason at all that it can’t be put in the parenting plan that each parent must be informed of a phone number where the children can be reached if they will be out of town (or away from home) for 24 hours or more.  That’s routine in my agreements.  No one has ever complained. :My husbands thought is to go with the court evaluation, because he feels that :all our concerns can be heard that way.  A mediation would probably take days – :can they go over one day?   Sure, they can.  Why not?  A mediation should take as long as it takes to settle. :He is thinking, how can we mediate with a person who :digs in her heels and won’t budge? We have tried to compromise with her on :various issues over the months without success.  If we don’t do what she wants, :we are uncooperative.  If we offer a compromise, it is shot down, with no :reciprocal offer.  What happens if that occurs in mediation? Then the mediation is over.  You can only try.  But if you get a good mediator, it might work better than you think, especially since I’ll bet biomom is getting weary of the garbage too.  I have to say that I’m heartened by the fact that biomom is the one requesting the mediation.  Go with it! : :I am sure BM would not allow me into the mediation.  What if my husband would :want to discuss something with me in the middle – can they break so he can do :that? Yep.  A party to the mediation can bring whomever he or she wishes, although the mediator might ask you to wait outside.  You can also bring an attorney if you wish.  I recommend *strongly* that you don’t. : :I don’t know how this will all turn out.  I guess we will have a conversation :with the evaluator before we decide. : My feeling is that mediation is always worth a shot.  Always.  The worst that can happen is that it’ll break down, and then you’re no worse off than you were at the beginning.  At best, you can actually craft an agreement that works reasonably well for everyone. Vicki — Does it make any sense to say that I decompensate between paradigms?  Probably not.      -Jane Lawrence

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>DH wants to just go ahead with the court eval – I’m >curious about what she will say in mediation.  Our BM won’t budge at >all either, etc etc….

That is amazingly similar.   I hate that this has to come up during Christmas, though.  The whole process is extremely depressing, IMO. I wish we could get it all continued until January. I see no hope for the mediation – I can see where my SD gets her stubborn streak – both parents.  Sigh.   Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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gplen…@aol.comlitter (Geri and Brian) writes >My question has more to do with this second mediation, which BM instigated – >she states it would have been ordered anyway.  Why would the court order a >mediation after the court evaluation has already started, when the first court >evaluation was brought about by the initial mediation’s failure?  This timing >seems very odd.  We have a call in to the court evaluator to try to find out >what the real story is – hopefully we will hear on Monday.

DH was ordered to mediation. They went. They litigated more. They went to trial on a few issues. They got sent *back* to mediation. They litigated some more. They got sent back to mediation a third time They went back to trial. Again. The judge — after hearing a few of the arguments presented — insisted they go out in the hall and try to talk about a settlement. Mediation without the mediator Judges *hate* trials. The courts are thoroughly jammed. It’s been a year since your last mediation. Lots of water under bridges. After the court evaluation starts, you both will be even more inclined to settle. Another round of mediation will take place in light of the clarity of some issues that were still vague a year ago I think your BM may be speaking the truth here — it’s likely there would have been another round of mediation anyway. The timing might simply be a result of when someone was available to mediate (is this a mediator, or, more likely, a judge pro tem?). Or it might be deliberate. The closer one gets to a judge, the more likely one is to settle Just ask Nikki -k. — i…@panix.com              |   The Max Cam is up and running! Try it: Kim Scheinberg              |     www.panix.com/~jzk  TAKE PICTURE

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>DH was ordered to mediation. They went. They litigated more. They went to >trial on a few issues. They got sent *back* to mediation. They litigated >some more. They got sent back to mediation a third time >They went back to trial. Again. The judge — after hearing a few of the >arguments presented — insisted they go out in the hall and try to talk >about a settlement. Mediation without the mediator

That makes me tired just to read it.  What did you do while your husband was going through all of that? Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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gplen…@aol.comlitter (Geri and Brian) writes >>DH was ordered to mediation. They went. They litigated more. They went to >>trial on a few issues. They got sent *back* to mediation. They litigated >>some more. They got sent back to mediation a third time >>They went back to trial. Again. The judge — after hearing a few of the >>arguments presented — insisted they go out in the hall and try to talk >>about a settlement. Mediation without the mediator >That makes me tired just to read it.  What did you do while your husband was >going through all of that?

Geri, it’s a *long* process. Ours dragged out for 3 years and there was no real custody battle. Even after we bifurcated — that is, legally divorced without final property settlements — it took another 10 months. And this wasn’t a complicated we-need-to-evaluate-his-business thing. DH earned a straight salary. There was property that had been appraised. There was a 401k. The biggest issue was the Date Of Separation and that we the issue we went to trial over. We won that, btw, though we had been willing to settle on the date just to hasten the process. I’m pretty sure we’d have won on all points at trial but we gave up a good chunk of money to have it over and done with. Our BM wasn’t unreasonable, per se. She just felt that he left, therefore she was entitled to more than the law allowed. And there was no shaking her from that position. She went through three lawyers before she found one who would argue from that standpoint. The other two told her to take any of our numerous offers We had trial dates get rescheduled — one of the lawyers got sick or had a conflicting trial date or the judge was ill. We had mediation sessions that went nowhere. You name it. What should have been resolved in six months could have dragged out another three years. It takes forever to reschedule a trial date. The courts are often closed. You name it… What did I do? I learned enough about California divorce laws to pass a bar exam. I learned forensic accounting, too. I learned to forget about ‘fair’ in exchange for learning about ‘workable’ And having gone through all this, I think what Merrie told you over a year ago is still true. There’s a better than good chance you’ll end up with 50-50 custody of your SD indefinitely -k. — i…@panix.com              |   The Max Cam is up and running! Try it: Kim Scheinberg              |     www.panix.com/~jzk  TAKE PICTURE

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>Therefore, by requesting >the mediation ahead of time, she’s expediting resolution.

I could understand that frame of thought, except the date the mediation is scheduled on is after the court evaluations are already underway.  It seems like the mediation should be first. Our court date was also continued three weeks – this unrelated to the mediation thing as far as we know, since we received notification of that the previous week. Nothing like a little fun for the holidays. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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>but >sometimes people get smart and realize that they stand a better chance >of getting a tolerable settlement if they keep the control in their >own hands, rather than handing it over to attorneys and a judge.

Well, we are having some interesting thoughts and discussions at our house right now.  My husband is more of the mind of letting the court evaluator hear both our sides and making the decision.  I am more of the mind that he should go to the mediation and see what she has to say – it can always be stopped couldn’t it? How would asking for BM to have a psych evaluation fit into a mediation scenario?  My husband’s psychologist has read BM’s letters and of course, has heard our version, at least, of her antics, and agrees that she probably has some sort of personality disorder.  Of course, he can’t make a diagnosis like that for court purposes.  Our concern is more that she get some help, and perhaps some medication, and then maybe she might be somewhat more easy to deal with – at least for my SD’s sake. In a mediation, who can ask for something like that?  Also, what about things like telling us where she is going to take SD on vacation?  We were worried sick during the earthquake, because we had no idea where SD was.  (We don’t give a rat’s patootie about where BM is going on vacation, or invading her privacy – we just want to know where SD is if there is an emergency.) My husbands thought is to go with the court evaluation, because he feels that all our concerns can be heard that way.  A mediation would probably take days – can they go over one day?  He is thinking, how can we mediate with a person who digs in her heels and won’t budge? We have tried to compromise with her on various issues over the months without success.  If we don’t do what she wants, we are uncooperative.  If we offer a compromise, it is shot down, with no reciprocal offer.  What happens if that occurs in mediation? I am sure BM would not allow me into the mediation.  What if my husband would want to discuss something with me in the middle – can they break so he can do that? I don’t know how this will all turn out.  I guess we will have a conversation with the evaluator before we decide. Meanwhile, we work on this paperwork for the evaluator.  Uck.  It feels like the world’s biggest term paper. Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Geri and Brian wrote: > Last year, my husband and the BM had a court ordered mediation which was > grossly unsuccessful – in fact it terminated after about 30 minutes.  It was > because of this that the court evaluation was ordered.  After the evaluation > and court date were completed, the case was continued for one year, 50/50 legal > and physical custody, no primary CP. > We have now received notification of the commencement of our second court > evaluation.  To our surprise, the following business day we received a summons > for mediation – the date set after the court evaluation meetings are already > underway (and may even be completed).  We could not figure what the point of > mediating at that time would be, after the evaluation was already in progress. > Today we received a letter from BM stating that she had initiated the > mediation, but that the court would have done so if she had not.  (At this > point, I think the idea of mediation is probably too little, too late, anyway, > as there are too many unresolved issues, broken court orders, etc. to be dealt > with.)  My question is – why would the court of done this, after the > evaluations were already in process?   Also, since the evaluators will not even > let them be in the same room (big red letters on the file – DOMESTIC VIOLENCE) > at the same time – how could a mediator?

I’m just guessing.  What BM may have meant was that before you go back in, you will be ordered into mediation.  If DH and BM can’t work out a deal, then whoever is looking at their case will look into the evaluations, etc.  Therefore, by requesting the mediation ahead of time, she’s expediting resolution. Otherwise, you’d have to wait for the evaluations, then wait for the court date, then wait for the mediation date, then wait for another court date.  But as I said, that’s just a guess. In my experience, restraining orders have exceptions for court ordered appearances.  I believe that some states have tried foregoing mediation in domestic violence cases as an alternative. jane

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In a previous article, gplen…@aol.comlitter (Geri and Brian) said: : :Naturally, we are speculating what BM’s real motivation for this mediation :might be, at the eleventh hour, so to speak. Maybe it’s what drives a lot of people into reluctantly cooperating with mediation; it’s a sure win, but only of part of the marbles. Some people are so convinced that they’re going to prevail in court and take *all* the marbles that they’ll blow off mediation, but sometimes people get smart and realize that they stand a better chance of getting a tolerable settlement if they keep the control in their own hands, rather than handing it over to attorneys and a judge. This is a perfectly valid and unremarkable motivation for going for mediation.  I hope it works out for you this time. Vicki — Does it make any sense to say that I decompensate between paradigms?  Probably not.      -Jane Lawrence

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Last year, my husband and the BM had a court ordered mediation which was grossly unsuccessful – in fact it terminated after about 30 minutes.  It was because of this that the court evaluation was ordered.  After the evaluation and court date were completed, the case was continued for one year, 50/50 legal and physical custody, no primary CP. We have now received notification of the commencement of our second court evaluation.  To our surprise, the following business day we received a summons for mediation – the date set after the court evaluation meetings are already underway (and may even be completed).  We could not figure what the point of mediating at that time would be, after the evaluation was already in progress. Today we received a letter from BM stating that she had initiated the mediation, but that the court would have done so if she had not.  (At this point, I think the idea of mediation is probably too little, too late, anyway, as there are too many unresolved issues, broken court orders, etc. to be dealt with.)  My question is – why would the court of done this, after the evaluations were already in process?   Also, since the evaluators will not even let them be in the same room (big red letters on the file – DOMESTIC VIOLENCE) at the same time – how could a mediator? Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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Hi Geri,     What state are you in?  We are in WV but our case is in PA (where BM is), and PA requires mediation as a first step regardless of the history. BM files for more CS about every 6-8 months and they wind up going to a mediation session every single time.  Sometimes they settle it before the mediator, sometimes they don’t and they have to progress to a hearing officer (who knows what you have to do to actually see a *judge* in PA!!). But anyway, custody disputes, CS modifications and everything else must go before a mediator now in PA–they call it the Lighthouse Program.  Maybe your state is initiating something similar.  It’s supposed to be very successful and has helped the backlog of the family court.     However, it does seem odd in light of the domestic violence issue that you mention.  The only thing I can think of is that, presumably, this will happen in the courthouse where there is sufficient security available to prevent an incident.  I hope so, anyway.     I’ll be interested to read how it turns out. audra PS-Please tell me what "To e-mail us, dump the litterbox" means!!  I hate to admit to my cluelessness, but I’ve been meaning to ask…. Geri and Brian wrote in message

<19991127170805.08283.00000…@ng-fl1.aol.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Today we received a letter from BM stating that she had initiated the >mediation, but that the court would have done so if she had not.  (At this >point, I think the idea of mediation is probably too little, too late, anyway, >as there are too many unresolved issues, broken court orders, etc. to be dealt >with.)  My question is – why would the court of done this, after the >evaluations were already in process?   Also, since the evaluators will not even >let them be in the same room (big red letters on the file – DOMESTIC VIOLENCE) >at the same time – how could a mediator? >Geri >~~~~~~~~~~ >"A hairball is not a toy.." >~~~~~~~~~~ >To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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>What state are you in?

We live in California.>But anyway, custody disputes, CS modifications and everything else must go >before a mediator now in PA–they call it the Lighthouse Program.  Maybe >your state is initiating something similar.

I think they do in CA, too.  My husband and BM did go through a brief mediation at the start of the custody dispute, but it terminated in about 30 minutes, by the mediator. My question has more to do with this second mediation, which BM instigated – she states it would have been ordered anyway.  Why would the court order a mediation after the court evaluation has already started, when the first court evaluation was brought about by the initial mediation’s failure?  This timing seems very odd.  We have a call in to the court evaluator to try to find out what the real story is – hopefully we will hear on Monday. Naturally, we are speculating what BM’s real motivation for this mediation might be, at the eleventh hour, so to speak. >However, it does seem odd in light of the domestic violence issue that >you mention.

Hopefully the court evaluator will shed some light on this as well.  We have a new evaluator this time, BTW.  The one we had last year was promoted into some other position.  My husband ran into her recently at the courthouse.  Her first question to him was to ask if BM was following the court orders. (Well, as they say on Veggie Tales, "Have we got a show for you!") >PS-Please tell me what "To e-mail us, dump the litterbox" means!!  I hate to >admit to my cluelessness, but I’ve been meaning to ask….

Look after my e-mail address, it says litter. That is in there to prevent spammers.  I wanted to put litterbox, but it was too many letters, so I shortened it to litter. If you want to use the e-mail addy, you just take the litter part out – see?  :-) Geri ~~~~~~~~~~ "A hairball is not a toy.." ~~~~~~~~~~ To e-mail us, dump the litterbox.

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Question:

Morning everyone! A friend of mine’s daughter is going to college next year and she is looking for a scholarship. My friend has had a stroke so she is on disability. Does anyone here know where I can get information for her about this? Thanks!!

There is actually a book that can be purchased through most BIG book stores.  It is nothing but scholarships and how to get them.  You would be amazed at what is outthere.

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I might alos mention that if her mother is disabled, that she may get more financial aid for school.  and you also have to look at student loans.  I graduated college in 98, was a 2 year school.  I borrowed 7,500.  I am repairing this at $100 a month for 10 years, not too bad. with financial aid and grants, and of course our local legion awarded me a $1,000 for the first year, my parents ended up paying just for my dorm(apartment), which was 600 a quarter (12 weeks), and books of course.  Most colleges will set up a payment plan too, mine did, it cost my parents $30 a quarter to enroll in the payment plan, then the payments were like anywher from $130 to $230 a month (depending on class load) I would suggest that she start at a small community college, one that is accredited with the same place that the big one she would like to attend is. then when she gets enough classes or a degree, she can go to the big college and transfer her credits. Also Private college’s are able to get you more financial aid then a public college is, tell her to apply for every college scholorship that she can, some colleges even offer their own scholarships, depening on the major some professional organizations can help out. just because a college is a "4-year or 2-year school" you don’t have to get it all done in that time.  some people take 2 or 3 classes a quarter, some take more   I took 21 credit hours one quarter (that had to be approved by the dean), which I figuredout half way through it was a bad idea, I almost failed a class, and then the parents came down on me, the catch abput college was that they would pay, put I had to get the grade, they wanted A’s and B’ in the major classes (my major was computer science)  and at the lowest c’s in the other classes or the REALLY hrd ones.  but D’s are not acceptable. the next quarter I took 12 credits (13 is the lowest for full-time where I went), so I had to get the dean’s approval and housing’s approval to take this little and still liveon campus, but with my history of burning out the previous quarter I was allowed (the dean said that she better see an improvement in the grades, no slacking off; I made the dean’s list) You will find a smaller school also has a better teacher to stdent ratio and you get a more in-depth class too.  No big college that has lectures of 300 people for a class will stop and go in-depth on a subject that the students want to know. I think the biggest class that I was in was 35 people at the most, there were only 18 computer majors in the major at the time. The insturctors had less students and could take the time with them.  I know many a afternoons I was in an insturctor’s office getting helpon something I did not understand (I was bad with accounting!!) We one time for a class took a field trip to the mall, and once to an internet provider.  Heck the first christmas, the college actually chartered a bus and had a shopping trip to chicago (5 hours away), they held dances, volleyball tournements, stock car racing (they owned a race track), human bowling, gladiator jousting, bungie run. In case youare wondering, no I did not graduate from clown college,  it was Northwester College in Lima Ohio (not to be confused with northwestern university in chicago) www.nc.edu   Hey they offer virtual college courses over the internet and by mail, full accrediation too!!! they were 2-year when I went ther, but are now 2 and 4 year

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Cally, Money magazine has some neat stuff, try this first: http://www.pathfinder.com/money/depts/dearmoney/archive/dm.coll.webl oot.html Lance Who hasn’t had his coffee yet and is not chipper like Cally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Morning everyone! A friend of mine’s daughter is going to college next year and she is looking for a scholarship. My friend has had a stroke so she is on disability. Does anyone here know where I can get information for her about this? Thanks!! Cally

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Thanks for the great information!!!! Cally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are a lot of college scholarship search engines on the web that are free.  They let you put in information about yourself, your academic record, and your living circumstances, then search for matching scholarships.  Here are some places to start. www.petersons.com scholarstuff.com www.scholarship-page.com www.fastweb.com www.finaid.org Morning everyone! A friend of mine’s daughter is going to college next year and she is looking for a scholarship. My friend has had a stroke so she is on disability. Does anyone here know where I can get information for her about this? Thanks!! Cally

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Morning everyone! A friend of mine’s daughter is going to college next year and she is looking for a scholarship. My friend has had a stroke so she is on disability. Does anyone here know where I can get information for her about this? Thanks!! Cally

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There are a lot of college scholarship search engines on the web that are free.  They let you put in information about yourself, your academic record, and your living circumstances, then search for matching scholarships.  Here are some places to start. www.petersons.com scholarstuff.com www.scholarship-page.com www.fastweb.com www.finaid.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Morning everyone! A friend of mine’s daughter is going to college next year and she is looking for a scholarship. My friend has had a stroke so she is on disability. Does anyone here know where I can get information for her about this? Thanks!! Cally

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Question:

I am looking for accounting software that does not use a check register.  No checks written.  2 invoices only.  100 pieces of inventory.  Must track inventory and cash flow.  Already have created reports, now need the software.  Any suggestions?

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– Please call 1-888-698-9394 for software,computers,and hardware. we place jobs opening keep a look out. We carry scanner,cd drivers,sound card, and vidio card, monitor, etc. about 70,000 you can choose from. 24 hours service. http://www.jobsnyc.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for accounting software that does not use a check register. No checks written.  2 invoices only.  100 pieces of inventory.  Must track inventory and cash flow.  Already have created reports, now need the software.  Any suggestions?

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 You can use Qucikbooks. Just don’t print checks. –   Quickbooks Pro Advisor

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Question:

Financial statements contains historical data, jet still they are the most widely used information for investment decision making.

That’s obvious.  It’s a tradeoff of reliable data vs relevant data.  I suggest you check out the "Statement of Principles" contained within UK exposure drafts. I am writing my thesis on "The usefulness of financial statement for invest- ment decision making".Comparing financial statements prepared using US-GAAP and those prepared using German Commercial Code. I will appreciate if shareholders, finance analysts and accountants can give me their opinion on using foreign financial statements in making their investment decisions.

US GAAP is fantastic because you know that the same event will be treated the same way in a different set of accounts.  However the treatments can be questionable, to say the least.  German GAAP is also seriously questionable – my limited understanding is that accounts are driven by the tax treatment rather than by the accounts presentation. Therefore they’ll write assets off over a short period as this is the most efficient for tax. You should include UK GAAP within your thesis – we’re allowed to use significant amounts of judgement in preparing the accounts – this means that they are perhaps the fairest method of presentation but it does make comparability difficult. — "If you want to look at my feet, say so," said the young man.  "But don’t be a God-damned sneak about it."                               (from "A Perfect Day for Bananafish")

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Financial statements contains historical data, jet still they are the most widely used information for investment decision making. I am writing my thesis on "The usefulness of financial statement for invest- ment decision making".Comparing financial statements prepared using US-GAAP and those prepared using German Commercial Code. I will appreciate if shareholders, finance analysts and accountants can give me their opinion on using foreign financial statements in making their investment decisions.

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Question:

The sun is all you need.

I think you should replace "you" with "I" in that sentence. There are as many different ways to enjoy hiking as there are people. If someone enjoys the "day runner lifestyle," why judge him? Who are you to  tell anyone what "belongs" in the wilds, as long as there’s no deleterious impact? Relax. Live and let live.

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I never carry a watch when in the backcountry. I dont want to keep time or be on a schedule. The sun is all you need. Its either up or down. Its either light or its dark. Pretty basic. What else do you need to know. When was the last time you had an appointment you had be at in the wilds at a specific time.

Knowing time is pretty essential to me.  NO, I don’t have any appointments to keep, but a watch does let me judge distance on bushwhacks.  Knowing when to give up trying for a summit is another thing a watch is useful for.  IE, if I don’t make it on the summit by xx:00H, quit and go back. My last 5 days hiking/camping, it was cloudy and snowy each day.  I didn’t see the sun, moon or start the whole time. I constantly monitored my watch and compass each time I climbed a peak. Yep, for me a watch is a pretty inmportant tool. Hey, know what?  On a cloudy day, with a watch and a compass, you can figure out where the sun is. — Fight Spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email)                  at http://www.cauce.org/  It is there as an experiment to see if email spammers scan content — Pete Hickey               |                         |       VEIWIT University of Ottawa      |                         |      mirrors for Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5|  (613) 562-5800×1008    |       dyslexics.

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I am not trying to be judgemental or tell anyone what to do. Like I said it is just my 2 cents.

Sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that no one needs a watch in the wild and that they don’t belong there.

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e. If someone enjoys the "day runner lifestyle," why judge him? Who are you to  tell anyone what "belongs" in the wilds, as long as there’s no deleterious impact?

I am not trying to be judgemental or tell anyone what to do. Like I said it is just my 2 cents. Relax. Live and let live.<

Mark, I think you (not telling you) should take your own advice. Chill a little. I am not going to sneak up behind you on the trail and steal your watch…..  :)

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<snip The sun is all you need. Its either up or down. Its either light or its dark. Pretty basic. What else do you need to know. When was the last time you had an appointment you had be at in the wilds at a specific time.

<snip Generally speaking, I agree that I don’t need a watch. I usually don’t wear them Out There. But there was ONE time when I was in the Maroon Bells wilderness, out of food, and I wanted to make sure I made one of those shuttle buses back out to my car in Aspen. Yes, occasionally there IS an appointment you have to keep. — soilguyATcyberstateDOTinfiDOTnet

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I never carry a watch when in the backcountry. I dont want to keep time or be on a schedule.

Fine if you don’t have constraints. The sun is all you need. Its either up or down. Its either light or its dark. Pretty basic. What else do you need to know. When was the last time you had an appointment you had be at in the wilds at a specific time.

Well for instance, since you bring the issue of the sun up. If you are a peak bagging hiker like say Gross, the sun drives weather like thunderstorms.  Many basic problems/incidents stem from people not getting an early enough start, not knowing when to turn back. It’s a compounding error factor.  Light is your irrevesible resource. More than one person has died from failing to budget time properly. Hiking watchs are just a marketing gimmic, that bring our "day runner" lifestyles into the wilds where they dont belong.

Somewhat.

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Personally, I regard a watch as pretty close to essential in the backcountry.  Although we don’t have a lot of mountains in this neck of the words, I still find it important to set a "turn-back" time to minimize the chance of having to spend the night away from my base camp or having to fumble in the dark looking for it.  It is easy to get caught up in "wonder where this trail leads" and underestimate how long it takes to get back to camp. Even when day-hiking in state forests I try to set a mental "around this time make sure you’re on the trail back to the car" time. Sure you can tell from the sinking position of the sun, but I figure that a watch doesn’t weigh that much.  8-)

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I just bought a Swiss Army watch, and really like it. Here are some reasons why I think a watch is extremely useful in the backcountry: If you’re travelling to/in backcountry Alaska you ABSOLUTELY need a watch so that you can make your ride. Pilots and charter boat captains are generally very time-is-money oriented. You don’t want to be late for your appointment with them. Could cost you big bucks (or even a trip). And if you’re travelling on foot in mountainous country (especially during short day season), you want to know how much daylight is left. And if you’re kayakking <sp? or canoeing or rafting on a dammed river you want to be able to deal with scheduled releases of water. And if you’re travelling in tidewater you want to be able to decide when to go in which direction, and when the channel will open up (or close), and what will happen to the ice pack or the sand bars. And if you’re travelling at night you may want to know when the moon is up. And if you’re dooing something that requires precise timing (cooking, for example) a rotating bevel is good. And if you want to know how long you’ve been hiking so that you can decide whether you can make it back in time… — gene levine http://world.std.com/~elevine/

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Does anyone know of a watch that is: Indestructable has an UNBREAKABLE band glows in the dark (or has a light) waterproof I have broken 4 watches in the last 1 1/2years.  The band usually breaks, or the face cracks.  I just bought a Armitron Durasteel watch (heavy-duty stainless case, glowing numerials/hands, and a stainless-steel-link band), but I have no idea how it will hold up.  It seems to be really sturdy. I have already tried the G-shock, Ironman, and Triatholon watches, but they can’t handle my hiking/packing activities.

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Does anyone know of a watch that is: Indestructable has an UNBREAKABLE band glows in the dark (or has a light) waterproof

Probably not, but I have a Swiss Army watch that took it on the face once when I wiped out badly on Roller Blades. When I’m hiking I usually don’t wear a watch. <snip — yer favorite State Soil Scientist of South Carolina e-mail: soilguyATcyberstateDOTinfiDOTnet

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Does anyone know of a watch that is: Indestructable has an UNBREAKABLE band glows in the dark (or has a light) waterproof

You don’t suppose he wants something endorsed by John Cameron Swasey, do you?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know of a watch that is: Indestructable has an UNBREAKABLE band glows in the dark (or has a light) waterproof I have broken 4 watches in the last 1 1/2years.  The band usually breaks, or the face cracks.  I just bought a Armitron Durasteel watch (heavy-duty stainless case, glowing numerials/hands, and a stainless-steel-link band), but I have no idea how it will hold up.  It seems to be really sturdy. I have already tried the G-shock, Ironman, and Triatholon watches, but they can’t handle my hiking/packing activities.

I know where you are coming from.  It was driving me nuts that I was going through watches like crazy.  I walked into a watch store one day, and literally stated my requirements: – a watch that doesn’t run on batteries (self winding) – a watch that glows in the dark – a watch that will survive a ground zero nuclear strike – a watch so sturdy that I will pass this onto the next generation The salesman walked me over to the Omega Seamaster Chronometer.  In addition to the above requirements and although I do not do any diving, the watch is waterproof to a depth of 300 meters.  The crystal is a true rock hard, mineral crystal.  For over 4 years it has been my steady companion where ever I go.  It’s been beat up a against rock faces, dipped in water pools, mud pools and to this day it shines up nice even for those dressy occassions. It’s pricey (~$2500), but my watch hunting, neurotic days are at least over, as well as for my unborn grandson. So with the longview, the watch’s price is justified when you look at the performance period and the durability requirements. Just my opinion. -walt

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: I have broken 4 watches in the last 1 1/2years.  The band usually breaks, or : the face cracks.  I just bought a Armitron Durasteel watch (heavy-duty : stainless case, glowing numerials/hands, and a stainless-steel-link band), : but I have no idea how it will hold up.  It seems to be really sturdy. : I have already tried the G-shock, Ironman, and Triatholon watches, but they : can’t handle my hiking/packing activities. I used to have this problem. I solved this problem many, many years ago by buying a Rolex Explorer II watch which is their most rugged standard model watch. They have some special diving models that are more rugged. Back then, they were only $600. I think they are $2600 nowadays. OTOH the watch is still ticking although I have had to have the crystal polished twice to get out the scratches so I could see the face. The case and band show obvious signs of use but everything is still original equipment. Rolex may be a yuppie status symbol today but they did and still make the most rugged watches around if you get the right models.                            Danny Low     "Question Authority and the Authorities will question You"            Valley of Hearts Delight, Silicon Valley

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I walked into a watch store one day, and literally stated my requirements: – a watch that doesn’t run on batteries (self winding) – a watch that glows in the dark – a watch that will survive a ground zero nuclear strike – a watch so sturdy that I will pass this onto the next generation     [ ... SNIP ... ] It’s pricey (~$2500), but my watch hunting, neurotic days are at least over, as well as for my unborn grandson.

ACK! My *entire* top-quality winter backcountry gear inventory comes to less than $1600! I’m glad you’re happy with the watch, but MAN! And here I was getting all worried about spending $150 on a watch with built-in altimeter…. Cheers, "It’s hard to be unhappy when you have warm feet."                       – Dave Rose, Fellow Snow Camper —

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know of a watch that is: Indestructable has an UNBREAKABLE band glows in the dark (or has a light) waterproof Probably not, but I have a Swiss Army watch that took it on the face once when I wiped out badly on Roller Blades. When I’m hiking I usually don’t wear a watch. <snip — yer favorite State Soil Scientist of South Carolina e-mail: soilguyATcyberstateDOTinfiDOTnet

I just retired a $29 casio digital water resistant with a lithium battery after 7-8 years of constant wear hiking yard work car repair etc.  The only time i ever took it off was to shower.  The battery finaly gave out.  from previous experience, changing the battery destroys the water resistance and they don’t last long after that. I went through 3 or 4 expansion bands during that 7 years. a woven nylon band would be as close to indestructable as you can get. Unfortunately All watches attach the bands with those little spring pins and those will break periodicly regardless of how good the band is. Don’t know why nobody ever built a watch with a better band attachment. — Dick         _       _                   /                   /                 /                      |                  |  /                 | /

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Does anyone know of a watch that is: Indestructable, has an UNBREAKABLE band, glows in the dark, waterproof You don’t suppose he wants something endorsed by John Cameron Swasey, do you?

    BTW, I thought he was really good in Ghost and Dirty Dancing!       — Randy Rohrer                       |  "If you’re not living on the edge, The George Washington University   |   you’re taking up too much space." Department of EE&CS                |

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It’s pricey (~$2500), but my watch hunting, neurotic days are at least over, as well as for my unborn grandson. So with the longview, the watch’s price is justified when you look at the performance period and the durability requirements. Just my opinion. -walt

Ouch!  I’d be afraid to wear it.  OTH, I could take the money, and buy 64 G-shocks. They’d probably last just as long, and there’d probably be a few left over for my unborn grandson, too!

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: It’s pricey (~$2500), but my watch hunting, neurotic days are at least : over, as well as for my unborn grandson. : ACK! My *entire* top-quality winter backcountry gear : inventory comes to less than $1600! I’m glad you’re : happy with the watch, but MAN! And here I was getting : all worried about spending $150 on a watch with built-in : altimeter…. The original poster wrote he broke 4 watches in 1.5 years. At $150 per watch, that’s $600 of new watches every 1.5 years. At that rate a $2500 watch that keeps on ticking pays for itself in about 6.25 years. For that 6.25 years he does not suffer any of the inconvenience of being without a watch when it breaks. Murphy’s Law says that when a watch breaks is when you most need it. There are times when the best way to save money is to spend some more money.                            Danny Low     "Question Authority and the Authorities will question You"            Valley of Hearts Delight, Silicon Valley

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The original poster wrote he broke 4 watches in 1.5 years. At $150 per watch, that’s $600 of new watches every 1.5 years. At that rate a $2500 watch that keeps on ticking pays for itself in about 6.25 years. For that 6.25 years he does not suffer any of the inconvenience of being without a watch when it breaks. Murphy’s Law says that when a watch breaks is when you most need it.

Call me cheap (everyone else does ), but I’d buy two $10 watches. Keep one in my pack, one on my wrist. If I broke 4 in 1.5 years, I’d be spending a mere $27/year, and I’d never have to worry being without a watch. Then I’d have well over $2000 to spend on a complete set of top-quality backpacking gear. And maybe a backup sundial. There are times when the best way to save money is to spend some more money.

Or to spend far, far less. Cheers, "It’s hard to be unhappy when you have warm feet."                       – Dave Rose, Fellow Snow Camper —

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<snip There are times when the best way to save money is to spend some more money.

Either that or be more f’n careful.

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Does anyone know of a watch that is: Indestructable has an UNBREAKABLE band glows in the dark (or has a light) waterproof

There are watch _bands_ available from military style outfitters, such as Brigade Quartermasters, etc. These bands are nylon web and Velcro, and have an extra flap that can go over the watch crystal to protect it from many hazards. Put on whatever moderate watch you like, and the combo may fit all of your specs. BTW, I recently got a watch with the "Indiglow" type light, much better than most other lighted watches, or glowing types. Gary — Anything that works is good technique. Gary Schwartz headers modified, please reply to: schwartz at XXXXX ignore com edu gov XXXXX     datablast.net

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I never carry a watch when in the backcountry. I dont want to keep time or be on a schedule. The sun is all you need. Its either up or down. Its either light or its dark. Pretty basic. What else do you need to know. When was the last time you had an appointment you had be at in the wilds at a specific time. Hiking watchs are just a marketing gimmic, that bring our "day runner" lifestyles into the wilds where they dont belong. My 2 cents Dave

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Does any one here have any experience or opinion regarding the new hiking watch by Avocet? It is sleek, yet has a barometer, atimeter, and thermometer built in. It will track feet ascended or descended for a given time and track the barometric pressure to give you a heads up on the weather. I’m interested in getting one. They’re only 129.99.

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i have a friend that has the skiing version of the avocet watch, and he loves it!  the only thing that doesn’t seem to work that great on it is the thermometer.  we figure that the body heat he gives off probably affects the reading.  whenever we hike in really cold weather,  the thermometer reading is obviously wrong.  all the other functions seem to be fairly accurate. -ron            "what we gain too easily, we esteem too lightly."                                                -dick bass – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does any one here have any experience or opinion regarding the new hiking watch by Avocet? It is sleek, yet has a barometer, atimeter, and thermometer built in. It will track feet ascended or descended for a given time and track the barometric pressure to give you a heads up on the weather. I’m interested in getting one. They’re only 129.99.

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Does any one here have any experience or opinion regarding the new hiking watch by Avocet? It is sleek, yet has a barometer, atimeter, and thermometer built in. It will track feet ascended or descended for a given time and track the barometric pressure to give you a heads up on the weather. I’m interested in getting one. They’re only 129.99.

I got one of these watches for Christmas, and I love it.  Not only will it track feet ascended or descended, but in ski mode it also counts runs.  It also records your rate of ascent or descent, average rate of ascet or descent and maximum rate of ascent or descent.  Its barometer is very good at predicting weather, too (it says it’s temperature-compensated.)  It also has a fancy stopwatch which will do split and lap times, a countdown timer, it records the maximum elevation and it has an alarm.  I sometimes think it’s smarter than I am!  About the only drawback is that it’s not waterproof and that the temperature reading is affected by body heat (to get an accurate reading you have to take it off your wrist for about five minutes.)  I highly recommend it.

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I have an Avocet altimeter watch and I’m very happy with it – I concur with the other people who replied to your posting, that the thermometer doesn’t work too well when it’s on your wrist – also, you have to return the watch to Avocet by mail when the battery runs out, for replacement and re-setting.  However, I did see a website somewhere a few weeks ago where a guy did an in-depth comparison between the Avocet and the latest Casio altimeter watch and he preferred the Casio – I think you can find it through GORP.  Happy trails.

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Does any one here have any experience or opinion regarding the new hiking watch by Avocet? It is sleek, yet has a barometer, atimeter, and thermometer built in. It will track feet ascended or descended for a given time and track the barometric pressure to give you a heads up on the weather. I’m interested in getting one. They’re only 129.99.

I have a Casio ALT 6000 watch, has an altimetre, pressure sensor and thermometer. I find it excellent, accurate to within 20-30 metres, just fine for hiking, but as it reads only every 2 minutes it is no good for skydiving, quote the manual!. The barometer requires a bit of interpretation as it is affected by temparature. The thermometer is affected by your body heat, of course, but if you need to know temparature you just take it off. — Peter LO McKellar Information Systems Officer Rotorua District Council Private Bag RO 3029 Rotorua New Zealand Phone (Work) 64-7-3484199 Ext 8018 Phone (Home) 64-7-3471154 Fax   64-7-3498323

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Indeed, the thermometer is only accurate if you take it off your wrist for at least five minutes and this is spelled out in the instructions that come along with the watch.  The thermometer is there for more accurate altitude readings since it is temperature compensated.  The altimeter seems to be more accurate if you calibrate it after it has heated up from you body temperature rather than if you set it and then put it on.  This is purely anecdotal, however, and I’ve not done any real empirical tests on this. -Kelly

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Does any one here have any experience or opinion regarding the new hiking watch by Avocet? It is sleek, yet has a barometer, atimeter, and thermometer built in. It will track feet ascended or descended for a given time and track the barometric pressure to give you a heads up on the weather. I’m interested in getting one. They’re only 129.99.

I and others hike most weekends in the San Francisco Bay Area racking up from 3 to 5+ thousand feet of elevation gain each day.  Several of us own and regularly wear our Avocet watches and use them to track cumulative daily elevation gain.  We’re pretty much convinced that the watches are reliable and the information useful to those who are interested in such subjects.  However, expect to see as much as a 5 to 10% difference in the figures registered by the different units.  We attribute such differences in whether the owner wears his under a coat or shirt sleeve or in the open exposed to air and sunlight, etc.  After all, these are barometric units extremely sensitive to air pressure and temperature changes so don’t expect absolute 100% accuracy at all times.  Like weather reports, they represent good evidence but not solid conclusions.   The thermometer also works well provided you remove the watch from your arm for at least 5 minutes so it isn’t affected by body temperature.   At $130 or so, I think the product is a bargain and well worth the price for hike leaders and regular hikers.  (I’ve also tried some of the Casio models, but believe that Avocet represents state-of-the-art at the present time). bond  My opinion is neither copyrighted nor trademarked, and it’s  price competitive.  If you like, I’ll trade for one of yours.

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I have an Avocet altimeter watch and I’m very happy with it – I concur with the other people who replied to your posting, that the thermometer doesn’t work too well when it’s on your wrist – also, you have to return the watch to Avocet by mail when the battery runs out, for replacement and re-setting.  However, I did see a website somewhere a few weeks ago where a guy did an in-depth comparison between the Avocet and the latest Casio altimeter watch and he preferred the Casio – I think you can find it through GORP.  Happy trails.

A friend who thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail last summer had THREE Avocet altimeter-watches die on him.  Avocet refused to honor the warranty but REI replaced them immediately.  He concludes that they are suitable mainly for "yuppie doctors, lawyers and accountants to wear around ski lodges." —

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A friend who thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail last summer had THREE Avocet altimeter-watches die on him.  Avocet refused to honor the warranty but REI replaced them immediately.  He concludes that they are suitable mainly for "yuppie doctors, lawyers and accountants to wear around ski lodges."

        I like my Timex Atlantis 200 w/ THE BAND for everyday wear, hiking, and fieldwork. It doesn’t tell you the temperature, or altitude, but it keeps accurate time/date information, water resistant down to 100 meters, and costs around $30.  Can’t hardly beat the deal.   *      Charles T. Faulkner       *   Get your facts first and then you *  Univ of Tennessee, Knoxville  *   can distort them as much as you please.

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loves it!  the only thing that doesn’t seem to work that great on it is the thermometer.   whenever we hike in really cold weather,  the thermometer reading is obviously wrong.

the specs say: "Body heat will affect thermometer accuracy when the Vertech is worn directly against the wrist.  Teh most accurate readings are displayed when the unit is worn over a jacket or when it is off the wrist.  In the temperature range 32-122 degF the thermometer is accurate to +-4 deg. It reads 4 deg high for each 10 deg below 32 deg." Why they didn’t program in a compensation, I have no idea.  Kinda goofy, actually. kbq

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the specs say: "Body heat will affect thermometer accuracy when the Vertech is worn directly against the wrist.  Teh most accurate readings are displayed when the unit is worn over a jacket or when it is off the wrist.  In the temperature range 32-122 degF the thermometer is accurate to +-4 deg. It reads 4 deg high for each 10 deg below 32 deg." Why they didn’t program in a compensation, I have no idea.  Kinda goofy, actually.

Should they compensate for your wrist temp or mine? How about the average cold-blooded woman (NOI)? Is that at rest or during activity and, if the latter, how much activity? It’s just a cheap watch afterall, with a fairly good altimeter, and the technology is still pretty antiquated.

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The Avocet Vertech is an awesome instrument.  The altimeter function allows you to navigate on and off trail when used with 1:25,000 scale topo maps.  It is temperature compensated, so temperature changes don’t affect its accuracy much.  It is important, however, to adjust the altitude reading at known elevations frequently to achieve the best accuracy.  This is true with all altimeters.  For navigating in the backcountry, I usually check it 2 to 3 times daily and adjust if necessary.  This keeps it pretty much dead on.  I find the Vertech FAR more useful for backcountry navigation than a compass. The Vertech also automatically accumulates your feet (or meters) climbed or descended.  This is fun for hiking/backpacking, but is especially useful for quantifying vertical sports like cycling and skiing/snowboarding (it also automatically counts runs skied, as long as they are at least 150 vertical feet).  It also displays rates of climb and descent.  For slow vertical activities like hiking and cycling, set it up to measure rates in feet-per-hour.  This gives you an idea of your vertical speed and helps you calculate when you will reach your destination.  For fast sports like skiing, set it to measure rates in feet-per-minute.  You can’t watch the rate while you are skiing, but you can check your maximum rate at the end of a run.  On a smooth intermediate run where you can tuck, a good skier can achieve rates around 1400 feet-per-minute.   The barometer functions are great, but most people don’t know how to use or interpret them.  Once you learn how to adjust the sea-level setting (must be done at a known elevation), the barometer can really help you forecast/anticipate weather changes. The Vertech also includes time-of-day, date, alarm, countdown timer, max altitude memory, and stopwatch with 20 split/lap memory.  The thermometer is innacurate when worn on the wrist, and fairly accurate off the wrist.  The Vertech does not yet have a light, but new versions in a year or so may have one.  Avocet is also introducing a compass that can be mounted on the band.  Vertechs come with 2 bands, one elastic (wear over jacket or glove) and the other polyurethane (typical sportswatch band). Let me know if you have any other questions on the Vertech.  I have all the answers! Eric Addicott

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The compass and barometer features are good, though.  The barometer has a bar graph that gives you a quick read on changing weather conditions.

The compass is the only one I know of that works reliable enough inside a car. The barometer should only be used to indicate relative figures. Try read the bargraph and – remembering this mornings weathermap – bet when it will start raining. Anyway, it’s a very robust lightweight watch, but I’m already yearning for the backlit and radio-controlled successor. Regards,   Georg

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I forgot to mention that the Casio also has a handy Compass WITH several memory settings to keep track of your direction. How much does it cost?  Where can you buy it cheap? john

I just received my Casio Outdoorsman, and it’s great! I’m still learning all the functions, but it has them all. I ordered it from Survival Outfitters. Of the few places I had seen it advertised, they had the best price. Their URL is: http://www.intrepid.net/~klynch/catalog.html#casio

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I just received my Casio Outdoorsman, and it’s great! I’m still learning all the functions, but it has them all. I ordered it from Survival Outfitters. Of the few places I had seen it advertised, they had the best price. Their URL is: http://www.intrepid.net/~klynch/catalog.html#casio

I have owned this watch for close to a year, and have been quite disappointed, for a couple of reasons. The thermometer takes the temperature of your wrist (mine is 85 degrees).  If you want air temperature, you have to take it off, place it in a position out of the sun and leave it for a full 20 minutes.  It reacts very slowly.  In addition to the inconvenience of doing this, it’s very easy to forget that you’ve taken it off.  You might remember only several hours later, much farther down the trail. Although I don’t use the altimeter much, it seems to be influenced heavily by temperature and changes in barometric pressure, so it’s only good for relative changes over a short period of time. The compass and barometer features are good, though.  The barometer has a bar graph that gives you a quick read on changing weather conditions. — Regards, Gary

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Just picked up the Casio version of the watch you mentioned.  Has all of the same features, plus a digital compass.  I also thought the graphic display of change in baro. pressure and altitude made it worth the extra investment. I haven’t tried it out on the trail yet, but local test seem reasonably good.  BTW:  you won’t be able to wear any of these watches and get a reasonable temp. reading.  My manual says that it has to be off your wrist for about 1/2 hour before it will settle to the correct temp.   Under these conditions, it has been dead on. Good luck.

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I forgot to mention that the Casio also has a handy Compass WITH several memory settings to keep track of your direction. Later, Robb

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I used to own a Veritech and HATED it with a passion.  It’s design absolutely is horrible compared to the Casio Triple Sensor. Why?: 1) The faceplate on the Veritech is not protected and plastic and    scratches easily (I scratched mine on the first day I had it). 2) There is no light for viewing at night or in the dark when using    the timer etc… 3) The stopwatch portion ROUNDS OFF to the nearest 1/10th second making    it worthless for sporting events like swimming, kayaking, running etc…    While the Casio is accurate to 1/100th seconds (no rounding). 4) The trend function on the barometer is the only indication on the    Veritech as to what is going on.  Once set to a barometric pressure    It never lets you read what the pressure IS CURRENTLY.  The Casio not    only gives you a readout, it shows a graph of the last 26 hours of    readings every 2 hours.  I personally found this MUCH more useful    than the trend function on the Veritech (God only knows how it calculates    this "trend". 5) The countdown timer only allows timing in hours and minutes.  NOT SECONDS    Which is what I needed for photography work (This was really dumb). 6) I much prefer the data given from my Casio as far as recorded info on    ascending and descending (with temperature recorded). 7) I also can calculate to compensate for the temperature difference on my    Casio if needed, and found the temperature readings on the Veritech to    be mostly inaccurate while on my wrist anyway.  Also, the Casio reaches    temp. quicker and is good below zero which the Veritech is not compensated    to do (you have to subtract 6 degrees for every degree below zero to be    accurate). The Veritech is NOT waterproof below 10 FEET!  While the Casio is good    to 100 METERS! 9) There are 5+ alarms on the Casio including an altitude alarm. The ONLY good thing I have to say for the Veritech is that the altimeter is good to a higher altitude.  Both watches seemed to have very similar accuracy in the field.

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The Casio is a cool unit, and the Outdoorsman model has a digital compass which seems to work pretty well.  The Avocet Vertech beats the Casio in these areas: 1.  Vertech temperature compensation is better, so altitude readings are more accurate. 2.  Vertech gives sea level barometer (you must be at a known elevation).  Since Casio only gives absolute pressure, it is only good for weather forecasting IF you stay at a fixed elevation.  The Casio barometer falls when you climb and rises when you descen, and does not give you sea level pressure like weather reports.  When you are in the mountains and the Casio tells you pressure is 24.98, you have no idea whether this is high or low pressure.  If you stop and watch it for a few hours, at least you will know if the pressure is rising or falling (assuming the temperature stays constant!) 3.  Vertech sampling rate is quicker (10 seconds in "sleeping" mode, every second when "awake". 4.  Vertech automatically records feet climbed or descended, so you can use it to quantify your climb when hiking, cycling, climbing, in-line skating, etc.  Set it to measure descent for skiing, snowboarding, whitewater sports. 5.  Vertech gives rates of climb/descent, either in feet-per-minute or feet-per-hour. -Eric

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:   : A friend who thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail last summer had THREE Avocet : altimeter-watches die on him.  Avocet refused to honor the warranty but : REI replaced them immediately.  He concludes that they are suitable mainly : for "yuppie doctors, lawyers and accountants to wear around ski lodges." I’ve had one for three years without a problem.  I’ve used it backpacking, climbing, cross-country and downhill skiing, during SAR missions, and caving.  Not exactly "ski lodge" use. My original battery died after 2+ years, and they sent me a whole new watch instead of just replacing the battery. Outstanding service, IMO. — Scott Linn

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Clyde is right about the thermometer.  You can’t compensate for wrist temp.  Since the temp reading is sort of a blend of your body temp and the outdoor temp, you could not use the same offset in different temperature conditions.  On a really hot day, the offset would be negative, and on a freezing day, the offset would be a huge positive. As far as the technology being antiquated, I don’t agree.  Just compare the Vertech to other altimeters, and it blows them away.  Check out the altimeter review in Rock + Ice magazine (it was March ‘93 or ‘94).  6 altimeter products were reviewed, and all but one were more expensive than the Vertech.  The editors gave the Vertech "Editor’s Choice" and said, "…this is the instrument that is setting the new standard."  Software enhancements are due late this year, and future versions are sure to have more improvements, but it seems the current version is very good and is the best available option unless you want to spend several hundred and accept a bulkier instrument with less functionality. -Eric

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Under the circumstances, Intel might occur to you <g.

No, but maybe Motorola….???

Leo UCD – Engineering                                   (303) 556-2356 "I’m only responsible for what’s not working right now." DoD# 0874

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I like the Casio too (have used it), but the Vertech is more accurate and has more functionality.  If it matters, the Vertech is also made in USA, not Japan.  One of the few cases (that I know of) where US electronic technology blows away Japan (there may be lots more examples, sorry if I’m ignorant).

Under the circumstances, Intel might occur to you <g.

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I have seen a lot of Avocets die on fellow hikers (and a few that worked OK). When working they are as good as my Casio, which is uncannily accurate under the proper conditions. The Casio may be ugly, but it looks like Sharon Stone compared to the Avocet, which is butt ugly. Also, the Avocet is complex, almost impossible to figure out how to get some of the simpler functions to work. The Casio is cheaper, too. Get a Casio.

I have no reason to knock the Casio, which I’ve never used.  I also have no reason to knock the Avocet which I’ve had one of for 2 1/2 years.  It’s never failed.  It seems fairly accurate.  I certainly wouldn’t describe this watch as complicated.  It’s easy to operate. I lost it winter backpacking in the snow in Rocky Mountain National Park in October 94.  A ranger found it and mailed it to me in June 95. It was still tickin’.

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I’ve heard a lot of stuff about the Advocet, a lot of it NOT true. First off, I do own the Advocet Vertech. I did quite a bit of research before I bought it. Casio makes 2 (I think) watches with altimeters in them . One is a triple sensor, which adds a compass to the watch. The dual does not have a compass.  The major differences are the Casio have multiple alarms. The Advocet only has one time alarm and one altitude based alarm. The Casio is accurate to within 20 foot increments. The Advocet is accurate to within 10 foot increments. The casio has a light in it. The Advocet does not have a light.      There was some talk about the Casio and its temperature compensation. The Advocet does not have a temperature compensation. I called Advocet and asked them about this. Advocet says temperature does not effect the barometer readings and compensation is not necessary. Their temperature is provided for information purposes only. It does not effect the altimeter. I can attest to the temperature reading. It does work as Advocet states and is accurate within the tolerances mentioned.      Lastly I checked the places that sell the watches. REI, for instance used to sell the Casio Altimeter watches, but stopped because they had so many complaints about them and had a LOT of failures. The Advocet is the only altimeter watch they carry any more because of these failures. Campmor also carries both watches. They have a higher return on the Casio watches than the Advocet’s. It appears the weakness with the Advocets is that they are only water resistant to 10 feet and the batteries give out right at warranty expiration time.      I hope this helps this complicated thread…

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 I have seen a lot of Avocets die on fellow hikers (and a few that worked OK). When  working they are as good as my Casio, which is uncannily accurate under the proper  conditions.  The Casio may be ugly, but it looks like Sharon Stone compared to the Avocet, which  is butt ugly.  Also, the Avocet is complex, almost impossible to figure out how to get some of the  simpler functions to work.  The Casio is cheaper, too. Get a Casio.

No way dude!  Yes, Casio probably has a lower failure rate since Avocet has only been making watches for 3 years, but Avocet reliability has improved dramatically and gets better with each run.   The Avocet is superior: 1.  Temperature compensated so there is less effect of temperature on the altitude readings.  Put a Vertech and Casio side-by-side, then put them in the freezer.  Check the altitude readings.  Now put them in the sun on a hot day and let them cook.  Now check the altitude readings.  Case closed! 2.  The Casio barometer has a cool graph, but it won’t give you sea-level barometric pressure unless you are at sea level.  With the Casio’s absolute pressure readings, you won’t know if pressure is low, average, or high.  It is only useful if you stay at one elevation for awhile.  With the Vertech, you can get sea level pressure (just like weather reports).  Also, since Casio’s barometer is affected by temperature, expect the readings to be plus or minus around .15 or more. 3.  If you like to quantify vertical sports like hiking, skiing/snowboarding, cycling, climbing, etc., get the Vertech which has accumulation functions. I like the Casio too (have used it), but the Vertech is more accurate and has more functionality.  If it matters, the Vertech is also made in USA, not Japan.  One of the few cases (that I know of) where US electronic technology blows away Japan (there may be lots more examples, sorry if I’m ignorant). -Eric  

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I have seen a lot of Avocets die on fellow hikers (and a few that worked OK). When working they are as good as my Casio, which is uncannily accurate under the proper conditions. The Casio may be ugly, but it looks like Sharon Stone compared to the Avocet, which is butt ugly. Also, the Avocet is complex, almost impossible to figure out how to get some of the simpler functions to work. The Casio is cheaper, too. Get a Casio.

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I have seen a lot of Avocets die on fellow hikers (and a few that worked OK). When working they are as good as my Casio, which is uncannily accurate under the proper conditions. The Casio may be ugly, but it looks like Sharon Stone compared to the Avocet, which is butt ugly. Also, the Avocet is complex, almost impossible to figure out how to get some of the simpler functions to work. The Casio is cheaper, too. Get a Casio.

I have used Casio for many years. It’s always been reliable to a fault, with the exception of the band wearing out and breaking occasionally. The altimeters aren’t very accurate, but accurate enough for my needs. I just ordered their Outdoorsman model. I hope it’s as good as the others I have worn.

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A friend who thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail last summer had THREE Avocet altimeter-watches die on him.  Avocet refused to honor the warranty but REI replaced them immediately.  He concludes that they are suitable mainly for "yuppie doctors, lawyers and accountants to wear around ski

lodges." I have two friends who hike and climb alot also have the Avocets go out after 1 year.  I’ll check out the Casio when my present old Casio (4 years old) altimeter watch gets ripped up to much on the rocks.  

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