Question:

> That’s probably where we differ most.  I think I deserve a measure of > ill health by virtue of 35 years of smoking & drinking & partying to > excess, eating junk food, not exercising, not drinking 8 glasses of > water/day, etc.

Dear G-d Chris.  Regardless of what you have/havent done you certainly dont deserve any disease.  Let alone MS of all things.  It sounds as if you have a meaure of guilt and that MS is your payback.  I couldnt disagree more.  If thats what you are saying.  I could be reading it wrong, or have the wrong impression of what you have written. I knew all those things were not condusive to > maintaining health – I made a conscious decision to do them anyway. > Given my beliefs on the importance of healthy lifestyle,  I have to > take some responsiblity for any illnesses that I have or might > develop.

Does a morbidly obese person "deserve" the heart attack that kills them?  I hardly think so.  Does someone who is addicted to the most addictive drug on planet earth, deserve lung cancer?  No chance in hell.  But, as I mentioned to Michael, "deserve" is a really hard word to use because it implies some sort of non existant Karma thingy handing out rewards and punishments.  There is this 90+ year old guy in my grand-mother in-laws nursing home.  He is perfectly healthy.  Healthier than us.  He smokes, drinks, his mind works perfectly, and he is the biggest fricken dick-head I have ever met in my life.  His brain works better than most of ours and he is simply a jerk to beat all jerks.  even jerkier than me.  ;^)  No one can stand this guy.  His family got rid of him cause nobody can stand to be around him.  Hes even worse than ME!  ;^)  And, he has been that way his ENTIRE life.  I wish "deserve" WAS the right word, because if this guy got what he "deserves" I would hate to be around when it happened.  And the worst thing of all is… his mind is absolutely perfect.  He is just the biggest ass on planet earth. Always has been. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many > communities, a > human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I > believe > is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who > fit the > description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. > Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, > that > would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special > favours all > my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast > majority of > humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had > in my > life, even at my most destitute." > Then I hafta’ ask why you say that you deserve treatment equal to that > received by any other human being?  Would you really want it? > Everyone in this group  has already had and will continue to receive > much better treatment than most humans – *equal* treatment would > require that we no longer have access to decent medical care, or even > adequate food & shelter. > I’m not trying to change your mind, Michael.  Your feelings & beliefs > are as valid as mine.  I just think that if this is to be an effective > support group, it’s important that options for approaching life with > MS are explored. > Thanks very much for responding in such a thoughtful – and peaceful – > manner. > Chris F

You made some really good points. Rob

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> Some examples: >     – if I’m looking for a job, I deserve equal consideration to the boss’s > favourite kid who’s also applied for that job.

I think deserve is the wrong word.  I think the guy who owns a business has the right, and he deserves the right, to hire anyone he likes, especially when it comes to hiring his own son for a business he owns.  Now, if you are talking about some manager at a K-Mart, then yes, you deserve equal consideration.  I think semantics is going to play a large part in this discussion.  Im not so sure "deserve" is the right word. >     – if my family home (a tenement apartment, let’s say,) is burglarized, I > deserve the same consideration by insurers and police as would be granted to > a millionaire.

Exactly! >     – if I get sick due to factors beyond my control, I deserve the same > access to diagnosis, treatment and aid towards restoring my health as anyone > else.

In that,,, I dont think so.  In the above, everything you "deserve" obligates others to provide things to you, that belong to "them", and not to you.  In a compasionate society, that is easily the most prosperous this world has ever seen, I do think its reasonable to "provide" the things that constitute a society worth admiring, or at least worth living in.  I dont feel we "deserve" things that obligates others to give us things that belong to them.  But through the system of taxation, some redistribution of wealth is the ultimate aim.  And I cant believe I am about to say this, but, I agree.  You, nor I, dont deserve anything… but its nice that our law makers have at least made a half-hearted attempt at providing at least some modicum of equality and care. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at > least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me > "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health. > | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > These questions don’t fit in the same catergory… or at least not quite. > I’ll try answering in the same vein, though. > It’s not so much that I deserve the satisfaction of my wishes, but that I > deserve an equal shot at satisfying them for myself.   Special favours, > dispensations, privileges or prejudices shouldn’t apply. > | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done > | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, a > human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I believe > is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit the > description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment.

Semantics aside, I agree completely.  We deserve what we are willing to provide to others. > Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that > would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours all > my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority of > humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my > life, even at my most destitute. > — > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>>

"WE" even being in such a shitty situation, do receive far more than we would get in other societies.  Its a tough, but good question to have asked. JMHO Rob

Response:

Joan wrote: I wrote:

"Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to thinking. deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment" Joan replied: "These librarians. <sigh> Chris, you will have to go to Gaylan’s room. You can talk dictionaries together. " Whoa there. Are you trying to tell me that *everyone* doesn’t keep their Websters on a chain attached to their wrist? No – it *can’t* be true… Chris F  :-)

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My OWN belief???? Deserve is just not a working part of my vocabulary. Nor is fair….. Nor expectations. I DO believe in acceptance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! With much love, Dorkey Pottybreath

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Carole; >QOL isn’t always what we make of it…outside forces often impact our efforts >& >views of QOL.

Well said.  Many things are beyond our control. I hope you have an easier time of it soon. Sylvia

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On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:00:12 -0400, "Gaylan" <gay…@attcanada.net> wrote: }At one of our holiday dinners, a question came up that created some }discussion.  After a bit, I entered the fray shifting the emphasis to }philosophy and then sat back and listened to an entirely different exchange }of opinion.  Just my way of having fun.

You’re bad, Gaylan, but cute. <smirkink> — Joan

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On 16 Jan 2002 12:23:12 -0800, cmccub…@sympatico.ca (Chris Fincham) wrote: }Whoa there. Are you trying to tell me that *everyone* doesn’t keep }their Websters on a chain attached to their wrist?

Mine is attached to a chain around my waist. My wrists are too sore. I *love* dictionaries, and words……. Kool. — Joan

Response:

"Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… > Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > thinking. > deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > Question: > What *do* you deserve from life?

"Deserve" is simply the wrong word.  Nobody deserves anything.  We arent born with an inherant, built in, pre-existing condition that obligates what ever it is, that we supposedly feel we "deserve" things from.  Who would it be that is obligated to fullfill these things that we deserve?  There is nobody to fullfill these obligations… other than from the rest of mankind. Refer to the Declaration of Independance, and the Bill of Rights to see what "WE" are obligated to provide to "OTHERS".  What we are obligated to do, respect, etc., is what we deserve.  And through our fullfillment of "OUR" obligations as set forth in the above mentioned documents, "OTHERS" aquire what they deserve, and through their obligation to live up to those laws… we recieve what "WE" deserve.  Clear as mud eh? > Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > Now explain why you deserve those things.

Well, America was the first nation to institute an overall policy of simple respect for fellow man.  While it took a while, and still needs improving, essentially it is this… Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of happiness,  our "inalienable rights".  Yada yada.  We deserve what we willingly provide to others.  Nothing more, nothing less.   What have you done/not done > that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > Chris F

If you have to do something, to get what you "deserve", as we are talking in this context,  nobody would deserve anything, ever.  "Life" isn’t a system of circus tricks where you need to perform, in order to get your treats. What we deserve is exactly what we are willing to provide to another. Nothing more, nothing less. So do we deserve MS?  of course not.  Do we deserve the medicines we use, the SSDI some people are on, our doctors, neurologists, this forum, noooo, but we are better at providing what is right, correct, and moral, than we are at providing what we deserve.  I just think that is just the wrong word. Of course nobody deserves any of the unimaginable bad things in life. (outside of crime and junk) and nobody deserves any of the good things… unless we are willing to provide them to others as well. JMHO Rob

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So is he Rob..or Stef or ???  Man oh man your getting loonier by the second bud… — Laura aka Mona aka Boopsie Barfbrain, Wife of Poopsie Sr. Mom to  Poopsie, Jr. and Lumpy Queen of the Mercury Amalgam Aspartame Multiple Sclerosis Society "Stef Duncan" <robandstef2…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:Lam38.4300$Fh4.353917@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… > > Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > > thinking. > > deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > > Question: > > What *do* you deserve from life? > "Deserve" is simply the wrong word.  Nobody deserves anything.  We arent > born with an inherant, built in, pre-existing condition that obligates what > ever it is, that we supposedly feel we "deserve" things from.  Who would it > be that is obligated to fullfill these things that we deserve?  There is > nobody to fullfill these obligations… other than from the rest of mankind. > Refer to the Declaration of Independance, and the Bill of Rights to see what > "WE" are obligated to provide to "OTHERS".  What we are obligated to do, > respect, etc., is what we deserve.  And through our fullfillment of "OUR" > obligations as set forth in the above mentioned documents, "OTHERS" aquire > what they deserve, and through their obligation to live up to those laws… > we recieve what "WE" deserve.  Clear as mud eh? > > Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > > type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > > Now explain why you deserve those things. > Well, America was the first nation to institute an overall policy of simple > respect for fellow man.  While it took a while, and still needs improving, > essentially it is this… Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of happiness, our > "inalienable rights".  Yada yada.  We deserve what we willingly provide to > others.  Nothing more, nothing less. >   What have you done/not done > > that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > > Chris F > If you have to do something, to get what you "deserve", as we are talking in > this context,  nobody would deserve anything, ever.  "Life" isn’t a system > of circus tricks where you need to perform, in order to get your treats. > What we deserve is exactly what we are willing to provide to another. > Nothing more, nothing less. > So do we deserve MS?  of course not.  Do we deserve the medicines we use, > the SSDI some people are on, our doctors, neurologists, this forum, noooo, > but we are better at providing what is right, correct, and moral, than we > are at providing what we deserve.  I just think that is just the wrong word. > Of course nobody deserves any of the unimaginable bad things in life. > (outside of crime and junk) and nobody deserves any of the good things… > unless we are willing to provide them to others as well. > JMHO > Rob

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I suppose that’s possible, Gaylan… but if so, it seems to me that my mom and I likely had different triggers setting it off. If the triggers are many, widely varied, and unknown… it’s less a lifestyle disease than just a bad day at the races, IMO. — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice. "Gaylan" <gay…@attcanada.net> wrote in message

news:g%j18.236$EI.1421@tor-nn1.netcom.ca… | Michael, | | It’s that "trigger" that puzzles us all. | Maybe we did ****do something.  :) | Maybe it’s a "lifestyle" disease, like some cancers. | | Gaylan | | | | "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message

| news:a231r5$u4rrq$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… | > | > trigger to get the ball rolling.  Who *knows* what that might have been. | > | > My point?   It’s simple chance, IMO.   I *don’t* deserve it anymore than I | | |

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Not dictionaries, not words, not librarians. Tis philosophy. At one of our holiday dinners, a question came up that created some discussion.  After a bit, I entered the fray shifting the emphasis to philosophy and then sat back and listened to an entirely different exchange of opinion.  Just my way of having fun. Gaylan "Joan Carter" <jecar…@gmx.net> wrote in message

news:rat94u412uhlkioc6rnoeg6igtjm4cj72f@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On 15 Jan 2002 11:51:30 -0800, cmccub…@sympatico.ca (Chris Fincham) > wrote: > }Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > }thinking. > } > }deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > These librarians. <sigh> Chris, you will have to go to Gaylan’s room. > You can talk dictionaries together. > — > Joan

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That’s simple….. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" Chrys, the Constitutionalist

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Michael, It’s that "trigger" that puzzles us all. Maybe we did ****do something.  :) Maybe it’s a "lifestyle" disease, like some cancers. Gaylan "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message

news:a231r5$u4rrq$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> trigger to get the ball rolling.  Who *knows* what that might have been. > My point?   It’s simple chance, IMO.   I *don’t* deserve it anymore than I

Response:

I hear what you say, and I’m sorry for your situation. My friend worked for many years and made provision for security in the event that she became ill, while she was still completely healthy, to ensure her financial security. Ok, suppose it depends on what country you live in and the welfare state support that’s available. Here in Britain it’s pretty good, not least the free to all national health services.  I’m sure elsewhere like in the US /Canada you also get the insurance sellers touting critical illness & other protective  policies ? Granted it cost her heavily at the time, and many people told her it was a waste, but now she’s secure. Roarke "Carole Ford" <cf…@ftconnect.com> wrote in message

news:3C44B253.35D8C8A8@ftconnect.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Roarke wrote: > > At least we’re alive and have a reasonably normal life expectancy. Quality > > of life is what you make of it.  Slowing down and finding the value in > > things you overlooked before is a benefit. > > Roarke > I’m unable to work due to the balance problems, my disability has been cut off > because the insurer says I can work as a janitor, I’m going thru the stress of > appealing the denial, and living on meager savings. What happens to my quality > of life if I don’t win the appeal, if I run out of money, & can’t find a job? > I’m not up to making a quality of life transition into living in my car at my > age. If I slow down & live in my car, I can discover the benfit of having seats > that recline. That is finding a benefit but not one I want to experience on a > nightly basis. > QOL isn’t always what we make of it…outside forces often impact our efforts & > views of QOL. > Carole > > "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message > > news:a223pp$topkj$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… > > > "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > > news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… > > > | Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > > > | thinking. > > > | > > > | deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > > > | > > > | Question: > > > | > > > | What *do* you deserve from life? > > > That’s a very hard question to answer.   I’d like to say I derserve an > > equal > > > chance at whatever I wish as anyone else who wishes the same thing. > > > Some examples: > > >     – if I’m looking for a job, I deserve equal consideration to the > > boss’s > > > favourite kid who’s also applied for that job. > > >     – if my family home (a tenement apartment, let’s say,) is burglarized, > > I > > > deserve the same consideration by insurers and police as would be granted > > to > > > a millionaire. > > >     – if I get sick due to factors beyond my control, I deserve the same > > > access to diagnosis, treatment and aid towards restoring my health as > > anyone > > > else. > > > Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at > > > least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me > > > "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health. > > > | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > > > | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > > > These questions don’t fit in the same catergory… or at least not quite. > > > I’ll try answering in the same vein, though. > > > It’s not so much that I deserve the satisfaction of my wishes, but that I > > > deserve an equal shot at satisfying them for myself.   Special favours, > > > dispensations, privileges or prejudices shouldn’t apply. > > > | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done > > > | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > > > Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, > > a > > > human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I > > believe > > > is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit > > the > > > description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. > > > Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that > > > would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours > > all > > > my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority > > of > > > humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my > > > life, even at my most destitute. > > > — > > > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> > > > Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

Thank you, Jil.   That encapsulates most of what I put into so damned many words earlier. This disease is a thing of chance, and "deserving" doesn’t enter into the picture.  Many other things in life are a matter of the presence or absence of human justice… and only they are the things to which the idea of "deserving"  (or "not deserving", as the case may be,) can be applied. — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice. "Jils" <j…@optushome.com.au> wrote in message

news:3c452b30$0$24139$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au… | the way i see it, "deserving" implies there’s someone or | something somewhere dishing out stuff that’s deserved or | otherwise. i don’t believe in deserving. or fate. i just believe | that stuff happens. the stuff that happens may be the result of | environment or genetics or both but it sure has nothing to do | with deserving. | | everyone’s entitled to my opinion. | | | "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message | news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… | Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to | thinking. | | deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment | | Question: | | What *do* you deserve from life? | | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work? | What | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? | | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not | done | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? | | Chris F | |

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the way i see it, "deserving" implies there’s someone or something somewhere dishing out stuff that’s deserved or otherwise. i don’t believe in deserving. or fate. i just believe that stuff happens. the stuff that happens may be the result of environment or genetics or both but it sure has nothing to do with deserving. everyone’s entitled to my opinion. "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to thinking. deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment Question: What *do* you deserve from life? Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work? What type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? Chris F

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On 15 Jan 2002 11:51:30 -0800, cmccub…@sympatico.ca (Chris Fincham) wrote: }Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to }thinking. } }deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment

These librarians. <sigh> Chris, you will have to go to Gaylan’s room. You can talk dictionaries together. — Joan

Response:

"Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:dd7bfcc3.0201151942.59948af4@posting.google.com… | Michael wrote:

| " Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, | at | least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to | make me | "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health." | | That’s probably where we differ most.  I think I deserve a measure of | ill health by virtue of 35 years of smoking & drinking & partying to | excess, eating junk food, not exercising, not drinking 8 glasses of | water/day, etc.  I knew all those things were not condusive to | maintaining health – I made a conscious decision to do them anyway. | Given my beliefs on the importance of healthy lifestyle,  I have to | take some responsiblity for any illnesses that I have or might | develop. That’s not the same as saying you deserve MS, though. Truth… I’ve spent far less time than you have (or at least not as many years) doing all of the above, but 20 years plus of hardcore smoking surely must have taken something out of me, *lots* of cannabis, varying quantities of opium, mushrooms, MDA, LSD, DMT, assorted amphetamines, peyote, barbiturates, tranquilizers, PCP, and especially alcohol through most of my teen years surely can’t have done me any physical good.  A short stint as a heavily addicted beer drinker (3 dozen a day for a few months,) taught me how *incredibly* harsh that stuff is on your body. You’d think that with all the chemical self-alteration I’ve done, I’d be sure to take some of the responsibility for a CNS disease, woudn’t you? But if that disease were MS, you’d be wrong.   My mom has MS too… and though she was a smoker most of her life, she seldom smoked heavily, was always very fit and a healthy eater, was not a drinker of my caliber by a long stretch, and abstained from all other unprescribed drugs until *after* she found herself with MS at age 33.  My dx was at 35. It had absolutely nothing to do with my lifestyle, of that I’m almost certain.   It may or may not have been something environmental that mom and I had in common, but if so I’d imagine my little brother (only 15 months younger) to be caught by the same thing.  No, I’m pretty sure it’s largely genetic in my case, and maybe it was under way very early on and escaped notice until it did something big… or maybe it just needed the right trigger to get the ball rolling.  Who *knows* what that might have been. My point?   It’s simple chance, IMO.   I *don’t* deserve it anymore than I deserve to be hit by a falling LEO satellite… which isn’t the same as saying I shouldn’t accept it.   Just means shit happens… sometimes it’s bad shit.  <shrug> >| Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, >| that would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special >| favours all my life, simply by living where and when I have been. >| The vast majority of humanity is poorer and has less opportunity >| – by far – than I’ve had in my life, even at my most destitute."

| | Then I hafta’ ask why you say that you deserve treatment equal to that | received by any other human being?  Would you really want it? Of course not.   I said I’m human, didn’t I?  That implies that I can be selfish, and can desire and pursue all sorts of things beyond merely what I deserve.   The fact that I wish for them doesn’t amount to entitlement though.   In a just world, I’d be entitled to an equal chance… the rest is up to me. | Everyone in this group  has already had and will continue to receive | much better treatment than most humans – *equal* treatment would | require that we no longer have access to decent medical care, or even | adequate food & shelter. Actually, that’s not necessarily true.  It would unquestionably mean that many would have to settle for less than they have now… but a reordering of priorities could see substantial improvement for the vast bulk of humanity without the richest having to sacrifice everything. Ahem… think of the trillions (yes, trillions) of dollars and the many tens of millions of man-hours spent worldwide every single year on development, testing and deployment of armaments.  Think of the lands and waters irrevocably laid waste in the doing.   Now turn those minds, monies and natural resources to the task of feeding, housing, clothing and maintaining the health of the world’s people.   OK.. never mind all of it… how about simply attending to all their most vital health needs? It’s a disaster scenario, of course… the planet’s ability to sustain us all would be outstripped by our population growth in no time flat… but it’s possible to do exactly as I just outlined – just as many other changes are possible – if the world’s economic and political leaders wanted things to be different and worked to make them so. Anyway… I’m way off track here.   My point:  what we most deserve as members of our species… human justice… is not always synonymous with what we might want as individuals.  Still, if we all started off with what we – as human beings – deserve from the get-go, none of us would have much but our own deeds and attitudes and the workings of chance to complain about. — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

Michael wrote:

" Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health." That’s probably where we differ most.  I think I deserve a measure of ill health by virtue of 35 years of smoking & drinking & partying to excess, eating junk food, not exercising, not drinking 8 glasses of water/day, etc.  I knew all those things were not condusive to maintaining health – I made a conscious decision to do them anyway. Given my beliefs on the importance of healthy lifestyle,  I have to take some responsiblity for any illnesses that I have or might develop. "Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, a human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I believe is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit the description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours all my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority of humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my life, even at my most destitute." Then I hafta’ ask why you say that you deserve treatment equal to that received by any other human being?  Would you really want it? Everyone in this group  has already had and will continue to receive much better treatment than most humans – *equal* treatment would require that we no longer have access to decent medical care, or even adequate food & shelter. I’m not trying to change your mind, Michael.  Your feelings & beliefs are as valid as mine.  I just think that if this is to be an effective support group, it’s important that options for approaching life with MS are explored. Thanks very much for responding in such a thoughtful – and peaceful – manner. Chris F

Response:

Hi Chris! >What *do* you deserve from life?

I would have to say an equal opportunity to work towards what I want in my life.  I deserve no more and no less than everyone else has.  Of course, in the real world, this is not going to be the case.  If I were born in a third world country, I wouldn’t get what I took for granted when I was a kid.  If I were born to a rich family, I would have many things that I hadn’t earned.   >Where do you deserve to live?

Wherever I can afford to live.  Simple as that sounds, in my experience, it’s not.  We still have housing discrimination based on race, nationallity, age, and anything else you can think of.  I went to look at an apartment once, and it was quite obvious the landlord wanted to rent to older people (I was 30 then.) >Where do you deserve to work?

Where ever I’m qualified to work.  Again, we still have discrimination  in this area.  I once didn’t get a job, and I knew I wouldn’t get it as soon as the interviewer told me the company was the largest African-American accounting firm in the city.  Because I well know of how much discrimation blacks have faced in the work place, I didn’t get angry.  I reasoned that job would go to someone who wouldn’t get a job somewhere else, but I could. >What >type of person do you deserve as your life-partner?

This is harder to answer!  This is a matter of personal preference by both parties.  I learned when I was in grade school that you couldn’t make somebody like you, as much as you thought they were "perfect" for you. >Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done >that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards?

Someone else already said it; I deserve these things simply because I’m a member of the human race.  And I have not committed any crimes that would make someone hesitate to hire me, rent to me, or date me. Sylvia

Response:

Roarke wrote: > At least we’re alive and have a reasonably normal life expectancy.  Quality > of life is what you make of it.  Slowing down and finding the value in > things you overlooked before is a benefit. > Roarke

I’m unable to work due to the balance problems, my disability has been cut off because the insurer says I can work as a janitor, I’m going thru the stress of appealing the denial, and living on meager savings. What happens to my quality of life if I don’t win the appeal, if I run out of money, & can’t find a job? I’m not up to making a quality of life transition into living in my car at my age. If I slow down & live in my car, I can discover the benfit of having seats that recline. That is finding a benefit but not one I want to experience on a nightly basis. QOL isn’t always what we make of it…outside forces often impact our efforts & views of QOL. Carole – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message > news:a223pp$topkj$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… > > "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > > news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… > > | Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > > | thinking. > > | > > | deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > > | > > | Question: > > | > > | What *do* you deserve from life? > > That’s a very hard question to answer.   I’d like to say I derserve an > equal > > chance at whatever I wish as anyone else who wishes the same thing. > > Some examples: > >     – if I’m looking for a job, I deserve equal consideration to the > boss’s > > favourite kid who’s also applied for that job. > >     – if my family home (a tenement apartment, let’s say,) is burglarized, > I > > deserve the same consideration by insurers and police as would be granted > to > > a millionaire. > >     – if I get sick due to factors beyond my control, I deserve the same > > access to diagnosis, treatment and aid towards restoring my health as > anyone > > else. > > Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at > > least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me > > "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health. > > | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > > | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > > These questions don’t fit in the same catergory… or at least not quite. > > I’ll try answering in the same vein, though. > > It’s not so much that I deserve the satisfaction of my wishes, but that I > > deserve an equal shot at satisfying them for myself.   Special favours, > > dispensations, privileges or prejudices shouldn’t apply. > > | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done > > | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > > Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, > a > > human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I > believe > > is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit > the > > description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. > > Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that > > would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours > all > > my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority > of > > humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my > > life, even at my most destitute. > > — > > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> > > Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

At least we’re alive and have a reasonably normal life expectancy.  Quality of life is what you make of it.  Slowing down and finding the value in things you overlooked before is a benefit. Roarke "Michael" <muirh…@island.net> wrote in message

news:a223pp$topkj$1@ID-78693.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… > | Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > | thinking. > | > | deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > | > | Question: > | > | What *do* you deserve from life? > That’s a very hard question to answer.   I’d like to say I derserve an equal > chance at whatever I wish as anyone else who wishes the same thing. > Some examples: >     – if I’m looking for a job, I deserve equal consideration to the boss’s > favourite kid who’s also applied for that job. >     – if my family home (a tenement apartment, let’s say,) is burglarized, I > deserve the same consideration by insurers and police as would be granted to > a millionaire. >     – if I get sick due to factors beyond my control, I deserve the same > access to diagnosis, treatment and aid towards restoring my health as anyone > else. > Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at > least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me > "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health. > | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > These questions don’t fit in the same catergory… or at least not quite. > I’ll try answering in the same vein, though. > It’s not so much that I deserve the satisfaction of my wishes, but that I > deserve an equal shot at satisfying them for myself.   Special favours, > dispensations, privileges or prejudices shouldn’t apply. > | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done > | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, a > human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I believe > is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit the > description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. > Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that > would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours all > my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority of > humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my > life, even at my most destitute. > — > Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> > Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to thinking. deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment Question: What *do* you deserve from life?   Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? Chris F

Response:

Chris The answer is 42 + C. Jack "Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to > thinking. > deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment > Question: > What *do* you deserve from life? > Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What > type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? > Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done > that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? > Chris F

Response:

"Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:dd7bfcc3.0201151151.475a8a6d@posting.google.com… | Youse guys who were chatting about not deserving MS got me to | thinking. | | deserve – to be rightfully worthy of reward, punishment | | Question: | | What *do* you deserve from life? That’s a very hard question to answer.   I’d like to say I derserve an equal chance at whatever I wish as anyone else who wishes the same thing. Some examples:     – if I’m looking for a job, I deserve equal consideration to the boss’s favourite kid who’s also applied for that job.     – if my family home (a tenement apartment, let’s say,) is burglarized, I deserve the same consideration by insurers and police as would be granted to a millionaire.     – if I get sick due to factors beyond my control, I deserve the same access to diagnosis, treatment and aid towards restoring my health as anyone else. Where does MS fit into this?  I’ve done nothing (of which I’m aware, at least,) to make me "worthy" of  a disabling chronic disease, or to make me "less worthy" than anyone else to enjoy good health. | Where do you deserve to live?  Where do you deserve to work?  What | type of person do you deserve as your life-partner? These questions don’t fit in the same catergory… or at least not quite. I’ll try answering in the same vein, though. It’s not so much that I deserve the satisfaction of my wishes, but that I deserve an equal shot at satisfying them for myself.   Special favours, dispensations, privileges or prejudices shouldn’t apply. | Now explain why you deserve those things.  What have you done/not done | that makes you rightfully worthy of those rewards? Not rewards.  Entitlements.   I’m a person, a member of many communities, a human being, and finally a living being with a will to pursue what I believe is good for me.   Simply by virtue of my existence among others who fit the description, I am worthy of, and I *deserve* equal treatment. Just so you know I’m aware of it… in the most rigorous analysis, that would actually mean I’ve been getting a hell of a lot of special favours all my life, simply by living where and when I have been.   The vast majority of humanity is poorer and has less opportunity – by far – than I’ve had in my life, even at my most destitute. — Michael <<muirh…@island.net>> Peace is not the absence of war, but the universal presence of justice.

Response:

Question:

I’m currently an accounting student taking my first auditing course.  I have a project to do on flowcharts.  the problem is I have no idea why or how they are used in auditing.  can someone please explain to me why and how they are used in auditing.  and if it makes a difference, it’s for Canadian standards.

Response:

I’m currently an accounting student taking my first auditing course.  I have a project to do on flowcharts.  the problem is I have no idea why or how they are used in auditing.  can someone please explain to me why and how they are used in auditing.  and if it makes a difference, it’s for Canadian standards.

The flow chart helps you visualize the accounting system and how it actually works.  That is, it helps you see the flow of the transactions. Understanding how the system is put together, especially in large complex corporations, is essential both to determining if the system is being followed, and determining if the system is adequate to ensure proper procedures are followed.  If you don’t know who does what and how, you can’t properly test to see that things were done. — Chris Anton, A&A Management Accounting, Inc.

Response:

I suppose you might consider it a step-by-step diagram of how functions are performed.  That’s the way it works in developing computer programs.  Some flow charts show how various systems work together.   In the oil industry one system takes a volume entry (MCF or BBLs), feeds it to the price data file, then it goes against the division of interest file which determines how much is revenue, how much is payable to royalty and co-owners.  Another system determines the production tax and to which state it is to be paid. All of this has to be done in a fixed sequence.  It would help to understand all this if you were auditing such a company.  However, your auditing class may have a different idea in mind. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m currently an accounting student taking my first auditing course.  I have a project to do on flowcharts.  the problem is I have no idea why or how they are used in auditing.  can someone please explain to me why and how they are used in auditing.  and if it makes a difference, it’s for Canadian standards. The flow chart helps you visualize the accounting system and how it actually works.  That is, it helps you see the flow of the transactions.

Response:

I had a accounting information systems class that required us to study flowcharts systems and how they work and the diagramming tools used depending on which type of flowchart you’re doing.  Thing is.. depending on who you work for, the industry you’re involved in depends on the type of flowchart they will require of you.  For my senior project I was again required to document and do flowcharts of the business that I was setting up an accounting system for.  We did two different types of flowcharts.  I can probably send you an example of both types if you are interested.. let me know. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m currently an accounting student taking my first auditing course.  I have a project to do on flowcharts.  the problem is I have no idea why or how they are used in auditing.  can someone please explain to me why and how they are used in auditing.  and if it makes a difference, it’s for Canadian standards.

Response:

i finally found a few books on the subject.   but if it’s no trouble for you to send me the examples, I’ll take them. thank you Nathan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had a accounting information systems class that required us to study flowcharts systems and how they work and the diagramming tools used depending on which type of flowchart you’re doing.  Thing is.. depending on who you work for, the industry you’re involved in depends on the type of flowchart they will require of you.  For my senior project I was again required to document and do flowcharts of the business that I was setting up an accounting system for.  We did two different types of flowcharts.  I can probably send you an example of both types if you are interested.. let me know. Michelle I’m currently an accounting student taking my first auditing course.  I have a project to do on flowcharts.  the problem is I have no idea why or how they are used in auditing.  can someone please explain to me why and how they are used in auditing.  and if it makes a difference, it’s for Canadian standards.

Response:

Question:

Thank you for your time and advice. Apology for my delayed reply. I was very busy, because of the end of the financial year. I had not even had time to check my email. On Monday I will start reconciling your model with my practical requirements. Thanks again, Nikolai

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi in NSW Questions: Are the "Trust Accounts" legal trust accounts, required by law. If so is there a separate bank account for each customer or is a "general" trust used. If the accounts are required by law there should be some policy by the Real Estate Authority stipulating the use and practice of the accounts. I will assume that the funds must go to a legal trust.  (So the funds never belong to the real estate agency) Funds from tenant to trust at start of month. Funds from trust (less service fees) to landlord. My interpretation of entries: Rent from tenant:  July 1 2001 The cheque from the tenant is $850                                              Debit      Credit Trust account                          $850        Landlord Payable                          $850 Pay Rent to Landlord: July 30 2001 The REA fee is 10% ($85) per Mo and the REA paid $65 for repairs. Pay the Landlord and the REA from trust.                                              Debit      Credit Co. Bank  (cheque)                $150 Landlord Payable(cheque)      $700        Trust Account                                 $850 (at this point we have paid the landlord and REA)                                              Debit      Credit Landlord payable                    $150         Revenue                                        $85 (10% fee)         Costs recovered                            $65 Note the other entry for repairs:                                              Debit      Credit Co. Bank                                               $65 Flow Free plumbing                  $65 If this scenario is correct then we need to try to adapt the AccProggy to make it work. Hint: Do the accounting and then fit it to the proggy  Recently I started working as a stand-alone accountant in a newly established real estate agency. Previously I worked in retail business, and in the new place I faced a problem:  HOW TO DEAL WITH TRUST ACCOUNTS.  For accounting I use MYOB and for this reason I searched for the solution in "Making the Most of MYOB", "Computer Accounting Using MYOB", MYOB manual and the Internet Support Notes for MYOB. Unfortunately, my effort gave no result. Than I searched dozens of accounting books in a library and again failed to find anything. And finally I talked to a practicing accounting specialist.  In the end of the day, it looks like this newsgroup is my last resort. Could anybody kindly advise me:    1.. What should be a contra account of the trust account?    2.. Who deposits money to trust account: customer or vendor (using MYOB terminology), debtor or creditor?    3.. What would be a transaction of deducting the company’s commission from the trust account? How to allocate it to the company’s general cheque account and income account?    4.. What would be transaction of deducting expenses from the amount originally allocated to the trust account?    5.. What would be a transaction of transferring money from the trust account to an account of those who have to receive the funds?  A real life situation looks like this:  A proprietor (Ms X) hires a real estate agency (REA) to arrange rent of a house. In the beginning of a month a person who rents the house (Mr Y) pays monthly rent which is being allocated to the trust account of REA. In the end of the month, the REA transfers rent from the trust account to Ms X’s account less commission and expenses incurred while looking after the property (plumber, repairs, etc).  Thank you for your consideration and advise.  Kind regards  Nikolai

Response:

  Recently I started working as a stand-alone accountant in a newly established real estate agency. Previously I worked in retail business, and in the new place I faced a problem:   HOW TO DEAL WITH TRUST ACCOUNTS.   For accounting I use MYOB and for this reason I searched for the solution in "Making the Most of MYOB", "Computer Accounting Using MYOB", MYOB manual and the Internet Support Notes for MYOB. Unfortunately, my effort gave no result. Than I searched dozens of accounting books in a library and again failed to find anything. And finally I talked to a practicing accounting specialist.   In the end of the day, it looks like this newsgroup is my last resort. Could anybody kindly advise me:     1.. What should be a contra account of the trust account?     2.. Who deposits money to trust account: customer or vendor (using MYOB terminology), debtor or creditor?     3.. What would be a transaction of deducting the company’s commission from the trust account? How to allocate it to the company’s general cheque account and income account?     4.. What would be transaction of deducting expenses from the amount originally allocated to the trust account?     5.. What would be a transaction of transferring money from the trust account to an account of those who have to receive the funds?   A real life situation looks like this:   A proprietor (Ms X) hires a real estate agency (REA) to arrange rent of a house. In the beginning of a month a person who rents the house (Mr Y) pays monthly rent which is being allocated to the trust account of REA. In the end of the month, the REA transfers rent from the trust account to Ms X’s account less commission and expenses incurred while looking after the property (plumber, repairs, etc).   Thank you for your consideration and advise.   Kind regards   Nikolai

Response:

Nikolai, See my answers following your various questions.  NOTICE – I am from Canada so the rules for Trust accounts may vary from yours in Australia. My first bit of advice would be to have lunch with the in-house accountant of one of the law firms that your real estate firm deals with.  They deal with trust accounts in a similar way and could be very helpful.  You may also want to talk to the accountant that does the annual trust audit (depending on the relationship of your boss with the auditor (ie good relationship – go and talk; bad relationship – maybe still go and talk and the relationship will be better when things go well at audit time  ) I have worked as a Office Manager for a law firm that does lots of real estate transactions so my suggestions will be similar to the lunch meeting with that law office accountant so these are only suggestions from my experience. A final note would be to contact MYOB and see if they can provide the names of a few MYOB certified Consultants in your area that may have experience with Real Estate Rental Agency transactions… or look on their website for a listing. Hope this helps!!! David "Nikolai Smirnov wrote Recently I started working as a stand-alone accountant in a newly established real estate agency. Previously I worked in retail business, and in the new place I faced a problem: HOW TO DEAL WITH TRUST ACCOUNTS. For accounting I use MYOB and for this reason I searched for the solution in "Making the Most of MYOB", "Computer Accounting Using MYOB", MYOB manual and the Internet Support Notes for MYOB. Unfortunately, my effort gave no result. Than I searched dozens of accounting books in a library and again failed to find anything. And finally I talked to a practicing accounting specialist. In the end of the day, it looks like this newsgroup is my last resort. Could anybody kindly advise me: What should be a contra account of the trust account? Answer: The trust account has two parts 1) the money in the bank is an asset, 2) the amount of money that is due to the client (Trust Liability = contra account)  (Hint:  this should equal the money in the trust account)     2    Who deposits money to trust account: customer or vendor (using MYOB terminology), debtor or creditor? Answer: The rentor (Mr Y) provides a cheque to the REA who then deposits it into a trust account and sets up a liability Mrs X ( she is both a Customer (see commission invoices and a "vendor" – not a great term in this situation) ) for the Gross Rent ( Debit:  Trust Account  Credit:  Trust Liability)     3    What would be a transaction of deducting the company

Question:

I am looking for a relatively easy to use (for a non-accountant) accounting software package for a small one-person consulting company. Don’t have inventory; mostly time billing.  Would be good if handle GST any any other things particular to Canada. Have looked in the electronic software stores and have seen MYOB, Simply Accounting and QuickBooks.  Am leaning towards MYOB but for no particular reason. Any recommendations or experiences that anyone would like to share?

Response:

Is SAGE Instant Accounting available?, much better than Quickbooks & more user friendly than TAS Books.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a relatively easy to use (for a non-accountant) accounting software package for a small one-person consulting company. Don’t have inventory; mostly time billing.  Would be good if handle GST any any other things particular to Canada. Have looked in the electronic software stores and have seen MYOB, Simply Accounting and QuickBooks.  Am leaning towards MYOB but for no particular reason. Any recommendations or experiences that anyone would like to share?

Response:

Any of those should be fine, all can account for GST. If you have an accountant, ask his/her opinion.  (If not, why not?) What about family, friends, colleagues, customers – what do they use?  It’s nice to know someone else who uses the same software – especially if they are more experienced than you. My own preference is QuickBooks.  I think it’s the most flexible, most "forgiving", and easiest to use – especially for a non-accountant, but then I  AM  an accountant.  I have a lot of respect for MYOB, but very little actual experience with it. Simply is the market leader in Canada, but I personally like it least. Be aware that each has a couple of different versions at different prices.  Probably the basic version of any of these programs would be sufficient, they’re all approximately the same price (within about $25) and have similar features and capabilities.  However, if you wanted to track your time and charge time and specific expenses to specific clients ("job-costing") you might prefer QuickBooks PRO (about $100 more) to basic QuickBooks, for example; I’m not sure what specific features MYOB and Simply have for time-tracking and job-costing.

I am looking for a relatively easy to use (for a

non-accountant) accounting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – software package for a small one-person consulting company. Don’t have inventory; mostly time billing.  Would be good if handle GST any any other things particular to Canada. Have looked in the electronic software stores and have seen MYOB, Simply Accounting and QuickBooks.  Am leaning towards MYOB but for no particular reason. Any recommendations or experiences that anyone would like to share?

Response:

Question:

Nicholas, you are really on the bubble, but Quickbooks  is set up to do accounting, and the flow is all set, where Quicken just doesn’t have the features that I need for a business. No, I don’t have inventory either. But if I wanted a profit and loss or balance sheet QB would easily give it to me. I have Quicken 98 home and business and it would be totally inadequate for me. Maybe the version you speak of is better. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not a CPA (I hire one), but I wonder Why people say NOT to use Quicken ? in My case, I have no inventory, no sales tax, and from reviewing QBpro, PT, etc I would continue to use My "stand alone" Estimating/invoicing" app I had created from "approach" Basically I need something to track the company’s income and expenses, Track equipment purchases, and track payroll expenses. Since I have a CPA "due his thing" 4 times a year, Quicken has worked out well(I had to manually separate the deprecated purchases, and I did payroll manually), but now I am going to incorporate. Since I will be working on a cash basis (can I as a corp?), not needing inventory, not needing invoicing/estimating, not doing any sales tax. What advantages does "Quickbooks" have over "Quicken for Business" ? Many thanks, Nick Nicholas, Everyone seems down on QB right now. (Intuit shot themselves in the foot with QB2000). I would NOT use Quicken to do your business. I have installed MYOB and Peachtree. Both are adequate, but a pain to use unless you do it full time. For a sole proprietor, I still think Quickbooks is the way to go. Gary

Response:

Nick, WHAT do you and your CPA talk about every 90 days? (4 times per year) It may be the CPA is learning more from you and your business,,, and you are paying <hum! and you are running your business. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not a CPA (I hire one), but I wonder Why people say NOT to use Quicken ? in My case, I have no inventory, no sales tax, and from reviewing QBpro, PT, etc I would continue to use My "stand alone" Estimating/invoicing" app I had created from "approach" Basically I need something to track the company’s income and expenses, Track equipment purchases, and track payroll expenses. Since I have a CPA "due his thing" 4 times a year, Quicken has worked out well(I had to manually separate the deprecated purchases, and I did payroll manually), but now I am going to incorporate. Since I will be working on a cash basis (can I as a corp?), not needing inventory, not needing invoicing/estimating, not doing any sales tax. What advantages does "Quickbooks" have over "Quicken for Business" ? Many thanks, Nick

Response:

People say not to use Quicken to do business bookkeeping for the same reason they say not to use a hammer to drive a screw — it’s the wrong tool for the job, and using it will ultimately take more time and cost more money than simply picking the right tool in the first place. As a CPA (in a previous life), the worst horror was to see a "client" walk in having done their "bookkeeping" with Quicken.  It is invariably a mess, and my experience has been that it costs more to clean it up than it would have to have hired us to do it right to begin with. While QB has its problems, it is far closer to being adequate for nonaccountants than is Quicken when it comes to keeping books for a small corporation.  The feature comparison is beyond the scope of what I’m willing to do here; perhaps someone else will take the time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nick, WHAT do you and your CPA talk about every 90 days? (4 times per year) It may be the CPA is learning more from you and your business,,, and you are paying <hum! and you are running your business. I am not a CPA (I hire one), but I wonder Why people say NOT to use Quicken ? in My case, I have no inventory, no sales tax, and from reviewing QBpro, PT, etc I would continue to use My "stand alone" Estimating/invoicing" app I had created from "approach" Basically I need something to track the company’s income and expenses, Track equipment purchases, and track payroll expenses. Since I have a CPA "due his thing" 4 times a year, Quicken has worked out well(I had to manually separate the deprecated purchases, and I did payroll manually), but now I am going to incorporate. Since I will be working on a cash basis (can I as a corp?), not needing inventory, not needing invoicing/estimating, not doing any sales tax. What advantages does "Quickbooks" have over "Quicken for Business" ? Many thanks, Nick

Response:

Well, I DO do the Daily book keeping!, I need to I have 10+ receipts to enter per day, and as I have 200+ jobs per year (projects) that I track the cost of, I NEED daily access to the raw data (job costs, do I have enough money to start 3 more jobs ?) But I dont know squat about filling 940’s,  941’s, MD unemployment, personal property tax (business), what is depreciated, what is not, etc. I provide My CPA with the raw data, IN ORDER and He’s happy with it, and I do all the payroll manually and hand him the file folder each qtr. I was looking to see if Quickbooks would better serve Me, even though I CAN NOT use it’s estimate/invoicing side of the program, or since I already have a custom made invoice/job tracking app, do payroll manually and have a firm understanding of My Income and expenses, maybe Quicken would serve just fine. I see Quickbooks (with My limited knowledge of it) as the lowest common denominator type program, Great fo a "typical" small business for some one with no understanding of accounting. I was just curios why people say Quicken is not good for tracking a small business ? Nick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nick, WHAT do you and your CPA talk about every 90 days? (4 times per year) It may be the CPA is learning more from you and your business,,, and you are paying <hum! and you are running your business. I am not a CPA (I hire one), but I wonder Why people say NOT to use Quicken ? in My case, I have no inventory, no sales tax, and from reviewing QBpro, PT, etc I would continue to use My "stand alone" Estimating/invoicing" app I had created from "approach" Basically I need something to track the company’s income and expenses, Track equipment purchases, and track payroll expenses. Since I have a CPA "due his thing" 4 times a year, Quicken has worked out well(I had to manually separate the deprecated purchases, and I did payroll manually), but now I am going to incorporate. Since I will be working on a cash basis (can I as a corp?), not needing inventory, not needing invoicing/estimating, not doing any sales tax. What advantages does "Quickbooks" have over "Quicken for Business" ? Many thanks, Nick

Response:

I am open to any suggestions, For strictly tracking Income and expenses  (no invoicing or invoice tracking, no inventory, cash basis) What benefits does Quickbooks have over Quicken for tracking income and expenses?? I am not being smart, I really need to know, As I am about to start up another business. Many Thanks, Nick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – People say not to use Quicken to do business bookkeeping for the same reason they say not to use a hammer to drive a screw — it’s the wrong tool for the job, and using it will ultimately take more time and cost more money than simply picking the right tool in the first place. As a CPA (in a previous life), the worst horror was to see a "client" walk in having done their "bookkeeping" with Quicken.  It is invariably a mess, and my experience has been that it costs more to clean it up than it would have to have hired us to do it right to begin with. While QB has its problems, it is far closer to being adequate for nonaccountants than is Quicken when it comes to keeping books for a small corporation.  The feature comparison is beyond the scope of what I’m willing to do here; perhaps someone else will take the time. Nick, WHAT do you and your CPA talk about every 90 days? (4 times per year) It may be the CPA is learning more from you and your business,,, and you are paying <hum! and you are running your business. I am not a CPA (I hire one), but I wonder Why people say NOT to use Quicken ? in My case, I have no inventory, no sales tax, and from reviewing QBpro, PT, etc I would continue to use My "stand alone" Estimating/invoicing" app I had created from "approach" Basically I need something to track the company’s income and expenses, Track equipment purchases, and track payroll expenses. Since I have a CPA "due his thing" 4 times a year, Quicken has worked out well(I had to manually separate the deprecated purchases, and I did payroll manually), but now I am going to incorporate. Since I will be working on a cash basis (can I as a corp?), not needing inventory, not needing invoicing/estimating, not doing any sales tax. What advantages does "Quickbooks" have over "Quicken for Business" ? Many thanks, Nick

Response:

Quickbooks is a form of double-entry accounting.  Quicken is not. Quickbooks will generate a reasonable set of accounting records, that can be fixed, no matter what.  Quicken may, it may not. Bottom line:  The double entry system was developed to insure the accuracy of the financial data.  Double Entry works pretty well.   With Quicken, you can make a mess during the course of a year that can be very, very expensive to clean up (all the while, thinking you’re doing a great job).  With Quickbooks, you can make a mess, but it is more easily cleaned up. I’d point out that neither product eliminates the need for an accountant to review the work from time to time.  Most of the QB users who try to go it alone end up with a mess (it’s just not as bad as it would have been with Quicken).  Have your cpa review your work monthly or quarterly, at least for a while until you get the hang of it.  Also, I’d have the cpa set up the trial balance for you at the outset.  But be sure to get one that knows a little about QB (there are lots of CPAs out there who don’t know anything about it, and they can actually make matters worse).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am open to any suggestions, For strictly tracking Income and expenses  (no invoicing or invoice tracking, no inventory, cash basis) What benefits does Quickbooks have over Quicken for tracking income and expenses?? I am not being smart, I really need to know, As I am about to start up another business. Many Thanks, Nick People say not to use Quicken to do business bookkeeping for the same reason they say not to use a hammer to drive a screw — it’s the wrong tool for the job, and using it will ultimately take more time and cost more money than simply picking the right tool in the first place. As a CPA (in a previous life), the worst horror was to see a "client" walk in having done their "bookkeeping" with Quicken.  It is invariably a mess, and my experience has been that it costs more to clean it up than it would have to have hired us to do it right to begin with. While QB has its problems, it is far closer to being adequate for nonaccountants than is Quicken when it comes to keeping books for a small corporation.  The feature comparison is beyond the scope of what I’m willing to do here; perhaps someone else will take the time. Nick, WHAT do you and your CPA talk about every 90 days? (4 times per year) It may be the CPA is learning more from you and your business,,, and you are paying <hum! and you are running your business. I am not a CPA (I hire one), but I wonder Why people say NOT to use Quicken ? in My case, I have no inventory, no sales tax, and from reviewing QBpro, PT, etc I would continue to use My "stand alone" Estimating/invoicing" app I had created from "approach" Basically I need something to track the company’s income and expenses, Track equipment purchases, and track payroll expenses. Since I have a CPA "due his thing" 4 times a year, Quicken has worked out well(I had to manually separate the deprecated purchases, and I did payroll manually), but now I am going to incorporate. Since I will be working on a cash basis (can I as a corp?), not needing inventory, not needing invoicing/estimating, not doing any sales tax. What advantages does "Quickbooks" have over "Quicken for Business" ? Many thanks, Nick

Response:

Nicholas, Everyone seems down on QB right now. (Intuit shot themselves in the foot with QB2000).

Why do you say this? I just bought the upgrade QB pro 6 to QB pro 2000 (Canadian Edition) What are your issues with QB2000? THanks David S.

Response:

I have been a Sole Prop. for 6-7 years running a "Real Estate Service Company" with 2 employee’s, I have used Quicken to track My Income and expenses, and have done My payroll "manually" (2 checks every other week). I am going to Inc.. and expand ( 4-6 employee’s, maybe more ?) My company services vacant real estate (paint, carpet, plumbing, elec, inspections), holds no inventory, etc. Since I am familiar with Quicken, and found it to be rock stable should I goo with QB pro ?, peach tree ? My concerns are: 1) Stability 2) Stability 3)Stability 4)Ability to track jobs 5)Payroll – will only have a few employee’s 6) Hidden pitfalls – Or should I continue to use Quicken ?, or how about Quicken for businesses ? Many Thanks, Nick

Response:

Nicholas, Everyone seems down on QB right now. (Intuit shot themselves in the foot with QB2000). I would NOT use Quicken to do your business. I have installed MYOB and Peachtree. Both are adequate, but a pain to use unless you do it full time. For a sole proprietor, I still think Quickbooks is the way to go. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been a Sole Prop. for 6-7 years running a "Real Estate Service Company" with 2 employee’s, I have used Quicken to track My Income and expenses, and have done My payroll "manually" (2 checks every other week). I am going to Inc.. and expand ( 4-6 employee’s, maybe more ?) My company services vacant real estate (paint, carpet, plumbing, elec, inspections), holds no inventory, etc. Since I am familiar with Quicken, and found it to be rock stable should I goo with QB pro ?, peach tree ? My concerns are: 1) Stability 2) Stability 3)Stability 4)Ability to track jobs 5)Payroll – will only have a few employee’s 6) Hidden pitfalls – Or should I continue to use Quicken ?, or how about Quicken for businesses ? Many Thanks, Nick

Response:

Question:

Hi! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m testing out a new submit engine that automatically submits URLs to all Its in need of some testing, so please send any URLs you need submitting to Glad to help you out Mark … give the following a try: http://www.foxall.com Title: Online services for small business    Description:    Provides online bookkeeping and tax prep "plug in" applications and virtual office sites for accountants, bookkeepers and tax practitioners. http://www.foxall.com/vao_adv.htm Title: The Virtual Accounting Office    Description:    A turnkey web solution for accountants and bookkeepers.  Includes home and profile pages Web Resources database, interactive online bookkeeping application, hosting, maintenance and a whole lot more.  Contains over 200 HTML documents & programs. http://www.foxall.com/vto_adv.htm Title: The Virtual Tax Office    Description:    A turnkey web solution for Canadian income tax practitioners.  Includes home and profile pages Web Resources database, interactive online bookkeeping application, hosting, maintenance and a whole lot more.  Contains over 150 HTML documents & programs. http://www.foxall.com/interbooks Title: Accounting for the Web    Description: An interactive online accounting solution for small (cash based) businesses.  Uses simple "fill in the blanks" forms to collect day to day accounting data from business clients and send it to their accountant over the Internet. Customizable and fully secure. http://www.foxall.com/intertax Title: Tax Prep for the Web    Description: An interactive online personal income tax preparation solution for Canadians.  Uses simple "fill in the blanks" forms to collect personal income tax data  from taxpayer clients and send it to their Tax Preparer over the Internet. Fully secure with anonymous submission option. …. all of the personal/company details are the same and you will find them at either of the URLs.  The main site { www.foxall.com } might be the easiest one to use. If you can prove to me that your submit engine can get me placement (at the top of the list) in the top half dozen or so major Web directories/search engines for all of these URLs  ….  I’ll gladly use it, recommend it to others,  include it in my Virtual Office packages and WebResources database (with a big red star beside it) *AND*  add your URL to the marketing resources list I’m building in biz.marketplace.services.discussion. *BUT*  it has to work!  So show me. Thx Foxall Online Services for Small Business,  http://www.foxall.com Moderator:  biz.marketplace.services.discussion and biz.marketplace.services.non-computer Online Services for Small Business (1) Small Business Bookkeeping Online, http://www.foxall.com/interbooks (2) Web Resources Database, http://www.foxall.com/util_lnk.htm (3) The Virtual Accounting Office, http://www.foxall.com/vao_adv.htm (4) The Virtual Tax Office, http://www.foxall.com/vto_adv.htm (5) Personal Tax Prep Online, http://www.foxall.com/intertax (6) Web design, programming and hosting services,

http://www.foxall.com/serv_ndx.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -*** Add your company to our growing database of Small Business Resources *** *** on the Web.  It is absolutely FREE so you have nothing to loose. ***

Response:

Please provide all the normal details, and don’t put anything in the comment line

Do you mean Subject?  Please clarify! rgds,

Response:

I’m testing out a new submit engine that automatically submits URLs to all Its in need of some testing, so please send any URLs you need submitting to

Glad to help you out Mark … give the following a try: http://www.foxall.com          Title: Online services for small business     Description:    Provides online bookkeeping and tax prep                 "plug in" applications and virtual office sites                 for accountants,        bookkeepers and tax                 practitioners. http://www.foxall.com/vao_adv.htm          Title: The Virtual Accounting Office     Description:    A turnkey web solution for accountants and                 bookkeepers.  Includes home and profile pages                 Web Resources database, interactive online                 bookkeeping application, hosting, maintenance                 and a whole lot more.  Contains over 200 HTML                 documents & programs. http://www.foxall.com/vto_adv.htm          Title: The Virtual Tax Office     Description:    A turnkey web solution for Canadian income tax                 practitioners.  Includes home and profile pages                 Web Resources database, interactive online                 bookkeeping application, hosting, maintenance                 and a whole lot more.  Contains over 150 HTML                 documents & programs. http://www.foxall.com/interbooks          Title: Accounting for the Web     Description:        An interactive online accounting solution for                 small (cash based) businesses.  Uses simple                 "fill in the blanks" forms to collect day to day                 accounting data from business clients and                 send it to their accountant over the Internet.                 Customizable and fully secure. http://www.foxall.com/intertax          Title: Tax Prep for the Web     Description:        An interactive online personal income tax                 preparation solution for Canadians.  Uses simple                 "fill in the blanks" forms to collect personal                 income tax data  from taxpayer clients and                 send it to their Tax Preparer over the Internet.                 Fully secure with anonymous submission option.   …. all of the personal/company details are the same and you will find them at either of the URLs.  The main site { www.foxall.com } might be the easiest one to use. If you can prove to me that your submit engine can get me placement (at the top of the list) in the top half dozen or so major Web directories/search engines for all of these URLs  ….  I’ll gladly use it, recommend it to others,  include it in my Virtual Office packages and WebResources database (with a big red star beside it) *AND*  add your URL to the marketing resources list I’m building in biz.marketplace.services.discussion. *BUT*  it has to work!  So show me. Thx Foxall Online Services for Small Business,  http://www.foxall.com Moderator:  biz.marketplace.services.discussion and biz.marketplace.services.non-computer Online Services for Small Business (1) Small Business Bookkeeping Online, http://www.foxall.com/interbooks (2) Web Resources Database, http://www.foxall.com/util_lnk.htm (3) The Virtual Accounting Office, http://www.foxall.com/vao_adv.htm (4) The Virtual Tax Office, http://www.foxall.com/vto_adv.htm (5) Personal Tax Prep Online, http://www.foxall.com/intertax (6) Web design, programming and hosting services, http://www.foxall.com/serv_ndx.htm *** Add your company to our growing database of Small Business Resources *** *** on the Web.  It is absolutely FREE so you have nothing to loose. ***

Response:

Hi Everyone! I’m testing out a new submit engine that automatically submits URLs to all the major search engines. Its already set up for the following search engines and indexes… 1. Infoseek (www.infoseek.com) 2. Infospace (www.infospace.com) 3. Infohiway (www.infohiway.com) 4. Prosper NET (www.prospernet.com) 5. Hotbot (www.wired.com) 6. Web Venture (www.webventure.com) 7. NYP (www.nyp.com) 8. New Too (www.manifest.com) Its in need of some testing, so please send any URLs you need submitting to .  NO SPAM PLEASE!  Any Spam will be filtered. Please provide all the normal details, and don’t put anything in the comment line, otherwise it will be rejected by the server. This is to help reduce Thanks everyone! Mark Crosby

Response:

Question:

my hair is so thin that if I leave it down, you can nearly see my scalp. And it dries in about 30 seconds! God Bless! Jane in AZ *I hope to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it. My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well. Does anybody else have this connection???

Response:

I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection???

Response:

I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection???

Hi God I can not believe this!!!!!! My family dr always told me to cut my hair and it would cure my migraines – from when I was 10 to 20 years old. Of course I was stubborn and no way – mmy hair was verrrry long. But when I was in my 20’s styles changed and I got my hair cut short and I was very right(I wish I could have told that old goat of a dr) it made no difference to me. I guess ‘old wives tales’ will never die off. Pain free day wishes to you, RoxAnne.

Response:

Well I see from reading here that I am not the only person who has butted their head gainst the wall trying to fiqure this thing out…. Just a thought, Later, Bridgett in TX my hair is so thin that if I leave it down, you can nearly see my scalp. And it dries in about 30 seconds! God Bless! Jane in AZ *I hope to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am*

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it. My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well. Does anybody else have this connection???

Response:

I have a ton of hair too…. and I do notice that If I keep it up for too long, I can get headache, but not a migarine…… Kristen Leigh

Response:

I was always very short for my age, all us kids were, but I had thick, long hair growing up. It was a sort of "thing" in our (my father’s side) family that of the 7 girl grandchildren, none were allowed to cut our hair. Well, out of 11 grandchildren total, 7 of us have migraines, and 5 of those 7 are girls, all with thick, long hair. We all rebelled at one time or another as we grew up but though I have had my hair as short as my shoulders, I have never  been migraine free. Neither have any of my cousins, sadly. Now I am wondering if any of  my male cousins had grown out his hair, would he have gotten migraines? Hmmm    ;-) Kayhlan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection???

Response:

I find this so incredibly bizarre.  I think it is outrageous that a doctor would tell you that your *hair* was causing your migraines!  Outrageous.  The fact that people who have sufffered migraines for years are even speculating about the possibility that this could be true surprises and saddens me.  It means that we are grasping at straws, looking for any possibility no matter how strange, especially something that we can control ourselves.  I am sure there are bald people who get migraines. diane where has Jack gone, he would love this (not). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection??? I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection???

Response:

my 2 cents worth… i also have very thick hair, had it very long all the way through college, had migraines since age 8… then decided to cut my hair very short for a change and although it did not change my migraines any it did require my neck muscles relearning how to hold up my head… since my neck had to compenate for the weigh behind while it was long, it no longer had the counter balance when it was short and needed to strengthen certain muscle groups in a new and sudden way… however over the last couple years i have grown my hair back out (after almost 19 yrs of short) and see no difference in my migraines either… all i can think of, is that the  doctors were linking neck muscle strain (such as some people have) as a migraine trigger… just my thoughts twyxt *-*-* Madness takes its toll —             please have exact change. -*-*-

Response:

Well, speaking only for myself, I am not speculating about whether or not my long, thick hair would have been causing or at least the only cause of my migraines. But just as I tend to watch, experiment and wonder about other triggers such as food, scents, chemicals, etc, it wouldn’t be out of the question I’m thinking, to at least consider whether or not tension on my scalp, angle of my neck, weight put on my skull/cervical spine and things like this could have any impact on the frequency or severity of my migraines. I do know for a fact that if I am feeling a migraine coming on, I will wear no barrettes, combs, ponytail holders or anything else in my hair. But that is just me. Hmm, I just re-read this. Perhaps you are right, Diane, maybe I "am" grasping at straws. Yikes!    Ok, nevermind!  

Just when you were starting to convince me!  The post about neck muscles and how you hold your head made some good points.  I had a ruptured disk that was pressing on my spinal cord (was like that for awhile) and while it did not cause my migraines, I do believe that the severe pain in my neck sometimes triggered migraines.  After the disk surgery my migraines went from one every 5 to 10 days to one every 10 to 20 days.  An improvement but not a big enough one that I would assume cause and effect or that I would suggest anyone have it done to cure migraines.  But I did get the use of my arm back and no more neck pain. diane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kayhlan I find this so incredibly bizarre.  I think it is outrageous that a doctor would tell you that your *hair* was causing your migraines!  Outrageous.  The fact that people who have sufffered migraines for years are even speculating about the possibility that this could be true surprises and saddens me.  It means that we are grasping at straws, looking for any possibility no matter how strange, especially something that we can control ourselves.  I am sure there are bald people who get migraines. diane where has Jack gone, he would love this (not). I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection??? I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection???

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I was worried that it might sound like my outrage was at the poster and not the doctors.  I was not offended by you but by the backward attitude of the doctor. I guess in some ways I have been luckier than most.  I had migraines when I was younger (teens and 20s) and at that time I didn’t seek medical care for them.  I was pretty much anti-doctor and was more likely to self-medicate with very bad results.  I only had about a migraine a year from my late 20s until my mid-forties.  Then they started to get VERY frequent.  I have a great pcp and she referred me a neuro and there were a series of other medical events that were either semi-related to the migraines or effected the migraines in terms of medications and diet while not exactly having anything to do with the migraines (how’s that for obscure?  Anyway, the gist of it is that I have  gotten great care and because of some unrelated health issues, have actually shown great improvement migraine-wise (things like no caffeine and calcium channel blockers for my heart have improved my head too ).  So I am lucky that I have not encountered any of the more bizarre theories.  And I too have been ready to grasp for a gun or something equally lethal at times. diane (remove the xyz to send me email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree it is outrageous.  I don’t know about you but I have had Doctors tell me a lot of bizarre thing that might cause my headaches,  and I do grasp at anything when I am in pain….even a gun sounds good then.  Didn’t mean to offend. Bridgett (again) I find this so incredibly bizarre.  I think it is outrageous that a doctor would tell you that your *hair* was causing your migraines!  Outrageous.  The fact that people who have sufffered migraines for years are even speculating about the possibility that this could be true surprises and saddens me.  It means that we are grasping at straws, looking for any possibility no matter how strange, especially something that we can control ourselves.  I am sure there are bald people who get migraines. diane where has Jack gone, he would love this (not). I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it. My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well. Does anybody else have this connection??? I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it. My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well. Does anybody else have this connection???

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Well, speaking only for myself, I am not speculating about whether or not my long, thick hair would have been causing or at least the only cause of my migraines. But just as I tend to watch, experiment and wonder about other triggers such as food, scents, chemicals, etc, it wouldn’t be out of the question I’m thinking, to at least consider whether or not tension on my scalp, angle of my neck, weight put on my skull/cervical spine and things like this could have any impact on the frequency or severity of my migraines. I do know for a fact that if I am feeling a migraine coming on, I will wear no barrettes, combs, ponytail holders or anything else in my hair. But that is just me. Hmm, I just re-read this. Perhaps you are right, Diane, maybe I "am" grasping at straws. Yikes!    Ok, nevermind!   Kayhlan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find this so incredibly bizarre.  I think it is outrageous that a doctor would tell you that your *hair* was causing your migraines!  Outrageous.  The fact that people who have sufffered migraines for years are even speculating about the possibility that this could be true surprises and saddens me.  It means that we are grasping at straws, looking for any possibility no matter how strange, especially something that we can control ourselves.  I am sure there are bald people who get migraines. diane where has Jack gone, he would love this (not). I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection??? I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection???

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I agree it is outrageous.  I don’t know about you but I have had Doctors tell me a lot of bizarre thing that might cause my headaches,  and I do grasp at anything when I am in pain….even a gun sounds good then.  Didn’t mean to offend. Bridgett (again)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I find this so incredibly bizarre.  I think it is outrageous that a doctor would tell you that your *hair* was causing your migraines!  Outrageous.  The fact that people who have sufffered migraines for years are even speculating about the possibility that this could be true surprises and saddens me.  It means that we are grasping at straws, looking for any possibility no matter how strange, especially something that we can control ourselves.  I am sure there are bald people who get migraines. diane where has Jack gone, he would love this (not). I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it. My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well. Does anybody else have this connection??? I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it. My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well. Does anybody else have this connection???

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I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection???

Hi God I can not believe this!!!!!! My family dr always told me to cut my hair and it would cure my migraines – from when I was 10 to 20 years old. Of course I was stubborn and no way – my hair was verrrry long. But when I was in my 20’s styles changed and I got my hair cut short and I was very right(I wish I could have told that old goat of a dr) it made no difference to me. I guess ‘old wives tales’ will never die off. Pain free day wishes to you, RoxAnne.

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I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection???

My hair is thick, but being fine it doesn’t look thick.  Dries fairly quickly too. Suzie Melbourne, Australia There are three crowns: the crown of Torah, the crown of priesthood and the crown of royalty; but the crown of a good name exceeds them all. Pirke Avot 4:19.

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I never had a doctor tell me to cut my hair to help the headaches, but just about every little old lady in the neighborhood did.  I chuckled when I read your post Twyxt.  I thought I was the only one that felt like my head was going to topple forward after a haircut.  I’ve learned to go from long to short gradually to avoid the inevitable crick in the neck after a cut. Dawn in AR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  then decided to cut my hair very short for a change and although it did not change my migraines any it did require my neck muscles relearning how to hold up my head… since my neck had to compenate for the weigh behind while it was long, it no longer had the counter balance when it was short and needed to strengthen certain muscle groups in a new and sudden way..

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I have always been fairly small, especially as a child, thin.  The doctors thought at first that my headaches were caused by an excessive amount of hair.  My hair is very, very thick.  Right now, my hair is not even grown to my shoulders, all one length, and it takes me 45 minutes to blow dry it.  My mom used to put it up in really high pony tails, it was so heavy I could hardly hold my head up.  My dad had migraines too.  He thought his had something to do with getting his hair wet, his hair was thick as well.  Does anybody else have this connection???

 I have long fine hair – but masses of it. I get migraines. My best beloved, Vernon, is bald and he gets migraines. No accounting for it!:-) Hugs, helen S

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Awwww Georgia, do give her a big hug from me and I do hope her head is much better today.  It’s so hard raising a child who is a migrainuer…I get a huge case of the guilts every time my Son has one. Jan ;*) "If we never experience pain, how then will we ever recognize joy?" Jan ;*) "Use no hurtful deceit; think innocently and justly; speak accordingly" Ben Franklin

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The hair thing has me thinking back.  I used to have hair I could sit on (actually, I have grown it that long several times in my life.  Currently, it is about 1 1/2 inches long.)  I never noticed any variance in my migraines that was related to growing it or cutting it.  But I do know that when I was little, our Amish housekeeper kept it in TIGHT braids.  When I had a headache, I would unbraid it as fast as I could because it seemed to hurt worse braided.  Now, my daughter doesn’t have that long of hair–she is just gifted with lovely curly brown hair courtesy of my African-American husband.  Of course, it is baby fine and thick courtesy of me.  Unless I am willing to gel it (and therefore wash it) everyday, it is usually in braids.  The other day she had a bad one and came begging me to pull the braids out because they hurt.  My hubby wanted to argue about it (he does her hair most of the time and hates dealing with it when she hasn’t had it braided or when, God forbid, she has thrown up in it.   She starts to resemble Medusa).  I told him it probably did hurt and pulled the braids out (replacing them with a couple of loose hair bands that kept the hair out of her face and therefore out of the line of fire  My son Chris (who gets much worse migraines than Cori) said it couldn’t be hair that caused them because he doesn’t have any (he prefers to keep it VERY short because the curlies get him teased Georgia

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I love this old wives’ tale….I think it’s one of the silliest yet, personally. Every doctor I’ve had until my current one had said the same thing to me – "your hair is so heavy, you should cut it – i can’t do anything to help you if you’re causing your own migraines for the sake of vanity." (yep, you read that right, folks  - it’s vanity that causes H/A ::groan::) My hair is thick and wavy and down past my hips, but so what. I once cut almost 3 feet of hair off and nope – no change in the pain. The only hair related triggers I’ve noticed are: bobby-pins pulling it too tightly, and the smell of certain hair chemicals like perms or colourants.

Can I have your hair, Raven?  I want to grow mine, but can’t get past the messy shoulder stage before getting the itches.  I just keep giving up and getting it cut. Suzie Melbourne, Australia There are three crowns: the crown of Torah, the crown of priesthood and the crown of royalty; but the crown of a good name exceeds them all. Pirke Avot 4:19.

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I love this old wives’ tale….I think it’s one of the silliest yet, personally. Every doctor I’ve had until my current one had said the same thing to me – "your hair is so heavy, you should cut it – i can’t do anything to help you if you’re causing your own migraines for the sake of vanity." (yep, you read that right, folks  - it’s vanity that causes H/A ::groan::) My hair is thick and wavy and down past my hips, but so what. I once cut almost 3 feet of hair off and nope – no change in the pain. The only hair related triggers I’ve noticed are: bobby-pins pulling it too tightly, and the smell of certain hair chemicals like perms or colourants. Raven "Without Contraries is no progression. Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate, are necessary to Human Existence." William Blake – The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

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Question:

Assets are almost never valued at fair value, they are usually valued at historical cost.  What consolidating the balance sheets would do is get rid of any profits between entities when transferring an asset from one entity to another.  This is not the same as fair value.

Ah, but crannyh is writing from the UK, and is therefore bound by Financial Reporting Standards 2, 6 and 7 (at least for the purposes of his homework!!).  In particular FRS7 requires you to recognise acquired assets and liabilities "at fair values that reflect the conditions at the date of the acquisition" (para 6). I should have inserted a caveat that my response did not reflect APB14 (I think that’s the relevant US standard) because I haven’t checked it – sorry.  All FRS 7 says is that you (a) work out what you’ve bought (b) apportion the purchase price to assets/liabilities, using the fair value of each asset/liability in each case (c) dump all the remainder into goodwill So you’re right – fair values are rarely relevant – but they definitely are here. I’m pretty much in favour of ditching the company balance sheet altogether – the only thing it does is give you some information on the legal position as to payment of dividends. We prepare a company financial statement for a wholly owned subsidiary, as well as a consolidated financial statement for the overall company.  It serves the owners needs to see the one active division stated separately, rather than only looking at the overall corporation.  If the owner only looked at the consolidated financial statement, the activities would be buried.

Well this is true for management – of course anything goes for management accounts – but I’d still query the usefulness of anything other than the consolidated picture for non-management stakeholders. Except for the legal dividend position (which could always be given by way of note as company profit after tax is currently). — "If you want to look at my feet, say so," said the young man.  "But don’t be a God-damned sneak about it."                               (from "A Perfect Day for Bananafish")

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I would like some help on group accounts What additional information is contained in a consolidated balance sheet that we cannot get from the individual accounts? And also are consolidated balance sheets a good thing or not? thanks in advance

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I would like some help on group accounts What additional information is contained in a consolidated balance sheet that we cannot get from the individual accounts?

Well you don’t get individual accounts full stop if it’s a wholly owned US company (I think) so get used to it. Individual accounts get cluttered with intercompany trading/transactions which can confuse the issue. Individual accounts may not be drawn up under the same accounting standards as the parent – or even to the same year end.  Consolidation sorts all this out. You don’t have goodwill in individual accounts, just lots of guff about cost of investment.  Also assets must be initially consolidated at fair value.  This is not necessarily the same as book value in the individual company’s accounts. And also are consolidated balance sheets a good thing or not?

Absolutely.  I’m pretty much in favour of ditching the company balance sheet altogether – the only thing it does is give you some information on the legal position as to payment of dividends. thanks in advance

– "If you want to look at my feet, say so," said the young man.  "But don’t be a God-damned sneak about it."                               (from "A Perfect Day for Bananafish")

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In general, this is a reasonable response, but I had to point out at least one area of disagreement. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like some help on group accounts What additional information is contained in a consolidated balance sheet that we cannot get from the individual accounts? Well you don’t get individual accounts full stop if it’s a wholly owned US company (I think) so get used to it. Individual accounts get cluttered with intercompany trading/transactions which can confuse the issue. Individual accounts may not be drawn up under the same accounting standards as the parent – or even to the same year end.  Consolidation sorts all this out. You don’t have goodwill in individual accounts, just lots of guff about cost of investment.  Also assets must be initially consolidated at fair value.  This is not necessarily the same as book value in the individual company’s accounts.

Assets are almost never valued at fair value, they are usually valued at historical cost.  What consolidating the balance sheets would do is get rid of any profits between entities when transferring an asset from one entity to another.  This is not the same as fair value. And also are consolidated balance sheets a good thing or not? Absolutely.  I’m pretty much in favour of ditching the company balance sheet altogether – the only thing it does is give you some information on the legal position as to payment of dividends.

We prepare a company financial statement for a wholly owned subsidiary, as well as a consolidated financial statement for the overall company.  It serves the owners needs to see the one active division stated separately, rather than only looking at the overall corporation.  If the owner only looked at the consolidated financial statement, the activities would be buried. Fred

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Question:

Up in the Catskills of New York State there is a primative camping area that used to be equipped with the comtemporary outhouses most of us are

Bob, I know the place and remember when they were being put in. I also remember using them with umbrella in hand to stay dry on a rainy day, and I also remember going in there and having to have to remove several inches of snow before I could sit down. I also remember cursing the state for not putting on a roof! But, the vandalism problem is extreme. The parking lot of that particular place plays host to the hoards from Brooklyn and Queens when hunting season opens. You can stay back in the woods around the lake and watch the bonfires roar in the (no camping) parking lots, listen while they unload round after round into the fire just for fun and know that these guys are drunker than they should be with guns in hand… Scary. J — Bongo Boy never litters! [www.bongoboy.com]

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Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years I would suggest the cost of the architects. I wonder if those architects will brag about their designing outhouses on their resumes. <G

Oh, no question. If you want to read about bad architecture get Don Norman’s         The Psychology of Everyday Things (1st. ed.)         The Design of Everyday Things (subsequent eds.) And then the recently oft cited Brand’s "How Buildings Learn." I know one outhouse architect in Santa Rosa.  Ken lives in Santa Rosa and he made the outhouse for the Sierra Club’s Benson hut.  When marmots started attacking the plywood, he retaliated with redwood.  Very nicely designed. Ken’s not an architect.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag?               ~                  Brett J. Nodello                ~               ~  http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/Trails/1039/  ~ Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

The article says, it "features a slate, gabled roof, cottage-style porches and a cobblestone foundation that can withstand an earthquake. The baseboards are covered with $78-a-gallon paint and the wildflower seed cost $720 a pound." — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

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Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years I would suggest the cost of the architects.

I wonder if those architects will brag about their designing outhouses on their resumes. <G

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: What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such : a high price tag? It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly.

Up in the Catskills of New York State there is a primative camping area that used to be equipped with the comtemporary outhouses most of us are familar with. You know the type, small wooden building with one or two seats over a hole in the ground. Anyway, over the years the outhouses were disappearing because campers were using them for firewood. The State finally woke up, took better control of the area, and decided to replace the missing outhouses. What they did is just about as vandalism-proof as you can get. They took large pieces of culvert, turned them on end and buried one end  in the ground. They then cut an opening in the culvert and attached hinges to the piece they removed to make a door. Inside the culver is the same old standard outhouse pit, with a seat on it. They did not put roofs on these, because they felt they would invite removal. So what they have are roofless outhouses made of steel scatter around this primative camping area. About the only thing that can be damaged with this setup is the seat. I know, I’ve been in a couple that were missing their’s (I assumed it was a camper needing to keep his/her fire going). Bob Clark

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  $400,000 (to more or less split the difference) would have cleaned up a lot of litter, repaired a lot of trails, or purchased a fair number of acres.

Hi Stephen, I have to agree with your assessment.  In all fairness however, I would like to add a personal note.  I recently spent 5 years in the Denver area.  Since my husband and I enjoy spending a fair amount of time outdoors, we have managed to use a lot of "outhouses".  Colorado has chosen to use a % of their lottery money on the Parks system.  They have an "outhouse" built by Clivus Multrum of Sweden that is a delight to roost in.  The works itself is a composter and this seems gentler on the ecology than the old system of using lye and such.  These units didn’t stink and NO flies.  They have a skylight and are well lit.  I believe they are also maintained by a full staff of rangers.  I don’t believe I ever saw one of these units vandilized.  Even out in the backcountry they were clean. Beverly Carl & Beverly Ferree San Dimas, California Carl WA6PPG * Beverly KC6HSW RV-Club Charter R-CHAR-00202*GS Life #1304083 SKP #43475; C2C #924966; WBCCI #7303 WBCCI FullTimers Club http://www.fulltiming-america.com/WBCCI RV-Talk is sponsored by the RV Club http://www.rvclub.com

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I heard about this outhouse.  I’m thinking of including a copy of the article in our website at http://www.freeourparks.org since I think such blatant waste is relevant to the issue of user fees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000.

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and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly. Lots of people try to break into outhouses? <G

No, no, no. Break *out* of them. Them city folk get all cornfused when their ain’t no handle on the toilet. J — Bongo Boy never litters! [www.bongoboy.com]

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It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly. Lots of people try to break into outhouses? <G

No, they do stuff like wrap a chain around the commode and attach the end to their 4×4 and yank the sucker out. It’s a sport to some folks. Even though you try to make these facilities vandalism-proof, some yahoo is going to figure out a way to break it or steal it. —         ‘Do the boogie woogie in the South American way’                               Hank Snow  THE RHUMBA BOOGIE

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One thing the article didn’t point out (and I assume is true in this instance) is that capital money (construction) and operations (maintenance) money are two different animals in most federal agencies. From my experience it is always easier to get grants for capital projects versus anything to do with operations–most politicians want to build something new rather than properly maintain something older. Hence the NPS bias towards building over-spec’ed structures. Just take a look at the last 15 years of appropriations versus budgets for operations for the NPS from our buddies in Congress. The politicians are willing to budget big bucks for parks but they have never appropriated the entire amount budgeted–i.e. the budget plays well in the media but the media never goes back to check if all the budgeted monies are appropriated (too boring compared with scandal, murder and general stupidity). Still, that’s an awfully expensive shitter–sounds ridiculously excessive no matter who was in charge… Peter

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It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly.

Lots of people try to break into outhouses? <G

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Some people still argue NPS needs more money.  They certainly need no more of mine for nonsense like this.  $400,000 (to more or less split the difference) would have cleaned up a lot of litter, repaired a lot of trails, or purchased a fair number of acres.

Yuh, it might be nice to have such high quality – but common sense says that they could have quality without high price- not that high anyways. It’s not a choice between an old fashioned $20 out house and this $400,000 "palace".

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: What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such : a high price tag? It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly. —    "do the boogie woogie in the South American way"                            Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)

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I’ll bet that users of the facility have a truly satisfying experience in there. Perhaps the outhouse is worth one of those little red squares that Rand McNally puts on their maps, to denote points of interest. — your favorite soils professional remove "spamnot" to e-mail

And I’m sure architecture students from around the world have assignments to visit this structure for it’s advanced concepts in … uh.. whatever. But what the heck is $330,000 in a $1,600,000,000,000 budget. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

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For $330,000 the National Park Service had to have known they were going to have to take a lot of shit for this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag? I don’t know much about this particular instance, but I’ll bet a lot of that price represents ‘one-time’ R&D/startup costs.  Kind of like the so-called "$500 toilet seats" the Air Force is infamous for.  That is, the designer-architect’s fees, for example, are attached to this single unit, but if ten more were to be built that part would already be paid for, so subsequent units would appear to ‘cost’ much less.  I can’t imagine what about this project’s paint would warrant a special formula resulting in $78/gallon, but it may have something to do with special enviro-friendly considerations.  If this is the only such unit built–and with the publicity it’s recieved, that’s likely–then those are true costs, so perhaps we should all head out there with a case of twinkies and a large cheese pizza, and find out if it’s worth it.

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: : What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such : a high price tag? : : I don’t know much about this particular instance, but I’ll bet a lot of : that price represents ‘one-time’ R&D/startup costs.  Kind of like the : so-called "$500 toilet seats" the Air Force is infamous for.  That is, : the designer-architect’s fees, for example, are attached to this single : unit, but if ten more were to be built that part would already be paid : for, so subsequent units would appear to ‘cost’ much less.  I can’t A better analogy would be to the $2000 coffee pot.  Yes, it was $2000, but it was not your run-of-the-mill "Mr. Coffee."  The Air Force needed something to prepare coffee for several hundred people at a time on a moving platform that wouldn’t spill boiling water all over the troops it was transporting every time it needed to make a turn. Obviously, Porta-Potties would be cheaper.  But they wouldn’t exactly blend into the background and they wouldn’t be natural appearing. At the same time, it’s likely that there’s a good amount of fat in this bit of pork.  Still, the amount of wasted money on this project is probably several time smaller than it appears on first glance. Todd

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What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag?

I don’t know much about this particular instance, but I’ll bet a lot of that price represents ‘one-time’ R&D/startup costs.  Kind of like the so-called "$500 toilet seats" the Air Force is infamous for.  That is, the designer-architect’s fees, for example, are attached to this single unit, but if ten more were to be built that part would already be paid for, so subsequent units would appear to ‘cost’ much less.  I can’t imagine what about this project’s paint would warrant a special formula resulting in $78/gallon, but it may have something to do with special enviro-friendly considerations.  If this is the only such unit built–and with the publicity it’s recieved, that’s likely–then those are true costs, so perhaps we should all head out there with a case of twinkies and a large cheese pizza, and find out if it’s worth it.

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<snip, slice, chop built–and with the publicity it’s recieved, that’s likely–then those are true costs, so perhaps we should all head out there with a case of twinkies and a large cheese pizza, and find out if it’s worth it.

Do you: A-Run away B-Climb Something – Climb Anything! (from a beer commercial) <G

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Here’s the article my GF sent me about this high dollar outhouse. Seems to be a prime example of poor oversight in the government as well as a congressman making sure he "brings home the bacon" to his home district.  INQUIRER WASHINGTON BUREAU  DELAWARE WATER GAP, Pa. — There’s a remarkable new building in the  federal park here: a two-hole outhouse, without running water, that cost  the National Park Service at least $333,000.  It’s nestled amid evergreens, with a gabled slate roof, cottage-style  porches, and a handsomely tapered cobblestone masonry foundation in the  manner of Frank Lloyd Wright. A medley of wildflowers hides any sign of  new construction.  Inside each spacious restroom, a green horizontal stripe at baseboard  level plays off the green of hemlocks visible through discreetly placed  picture windows. The place smells as sweet as the woods.  More than a dozen Park Service designers, architects and engineers spent  two years designing this privy, which opened in May 1996. And Park  Service officials say they don’t consider it expensive.  “We could have built it cheaper, yes, but we wanted someone coming up  the trail or off the road to encounter a nice restroom facility,” says  Roger Rector, the park superintendent who signed off on the new outhouse  in 1995.  “Frankly, that’s what we’re paying for toilets,” shrugs Dennis Galvin,  deputy director of the National Park Service. They’re meant to last 50  years or longer with little maintenance, he explains, and top-quality  construction naturally costs more. Lots more.  The hemlock-matching paint designers specified, for example, is  custom-mixed epoxy resin that costs $78 a gallon. Certified Joe Pye Weed  seed called for in its wildflower design cost $720 a pound. The toilets  are $13,000 state-of-the-art composting models custom built by Advanced  Composting Systems of Whitefish, Mont. Capstones that serve as porch  railings are of quarried Indiana limestone. The clapboard siding is  one-inch cedar. And, while local slate has been good enough for  Pennsylvania homes for centuries, it wasn’t good enough for this  outhouse. So slate was shipped in from Vermont.  If there’s an earthquake, don’t worry. This may be the only privy in  Pennsylvania with 29-inch-thick foundation walls designed to withstand  one. But in midwinter, the doors will be locked because composting  toilets don’t work in freezing temperatures.  “It’s beautiful, but I’m glad I always travel with Handi Wipes,”  remarked Ann Jones of Woodbridge, N.J., after a brief stop at the  comfort station. “At first,” she added, “I thought it was a visitor  center.”  In two hours on a sunny September Saturday, Jones was one of 10 visitors  to the facility, located at a trailhead in a lovely, remote ravine 300  yards from Raymondskill Falls in the Delaware Water Gap National  Recreation Area. Summer traffic is heavier, according to park personnel,  but on weekdays in fall the 20-car parking lot often is empty.  Just how the outhouse here came to be built — came, in fact, to rank  10th nationwide among the National Park Service’s 1994 construction  priorities — is the story of a government construction program that has  had three problems:  Politicians set most of the Park Service’s construction priorities. Park  Service architects design their dreams. Cost rarely is an issue.  That’s not so surprising. Lawmakers don’t mind Washington’s splurging in  their districts. Park superintendents need lawmakers’ favor. And Park  Service designers and architects have no incentive to curb costs. They  work out of an office, the Denver Service Center, that depends for its  revenues on commissions that are a percentage of the cost of the  projects they design.  “They’re a bunch of prima donnas who just want to win awards for design  excellence,” grouses Jack Wilburn, former chief of maintenance at the  Gulf Islands National Seashore on the Florida and Mississippi coast.  “Cost doesn’t bother them; they always want to do something monumental  and unique.”  By way of cost comparison to the Raymondskill outhouse, Wilburn says he  designed and built permanent comfort stations on environmentally  sensitive islands for about $20,000. At the Delaware Water Gap park,  portable toilets in widespread use cost $500 a unit.  To build the Raymondskill outhouse, the Park Service spent money in  three different ways: planning and design, construction, and supervision  of the contractor. For planning and design, the bill was $102,614. For  supervision — by a Park Service engineer from Denver who lived on site  in Pennsylvania for 10 months — the bill was $81,220.  The Park Service and the outhouse builder disagree over actual  construction costs. The contractor, James Straka of Peckville, Pa., low  bidder among six, says building the outhouse cost him $262,000. But the  Park Service’s Denver-based manager of the job, Michael Giller,  estimates it cost “$150,000 to $200,000.”  If Giller is right, the total was between $333,000 and $383,000. If the  contractor is right, it cost more than $445,000. That doesn’t include  costs of the parking lot, new signs, an improved trail to the waterfall  and other outlays.  In a sense, all of this is no big deal. National park construction is  certifiably gorgeous; it’s won more presidential design awards than any  other federal agency. And it’s not that much money in terms of the  federal budget: The Park Service has spent $1.99 billion on construction  over the last 10 years.  But one consequence of the Park Service’s penchant for custom-designed  outhouses — and gates, fences and even benches — is a backlog in  maintenance and construction work that’s grown in the 1990s from $2  billion to nearly $5 billion, according to Park Service testimony before  Congress.  Rep. Joseph M. McDade, the No. 2 Republican on the powerful House  Appropriations Committee, is the patron of the Pennsylvania privy. The  Delaware Water Gap park lies within McDade’s district, and he insisted  on its high priority.  McDade, shown photos of the outhouse by a reporter, initially thought it  was a restored resort cottage. “That’s terrible,” he said, once  convinced it was an outhouse. “It’s a Taj Mahal! Why the hell did they  do that?” The lawmaker said he never realized an outhouse was part of  an appropriations package he pushed.  “All I do is send them the money,” McDade continued. “I don’t try and  micromanage the park.”  Since lawmakers, in effect, set most of the Park Service’s priorities  and decide how much to pay for them, Service Center architects are free  to concentrate on doing great work on sites of natural beauty.  In the case of comfort stations, a standardized design might make them  cheaper, but that’s not the way Park Service designers think. Explained  Tom Solon, the recreation area’s chief architect: “It has some merit  for the military or McDonald’s, but each national park has unique  needs.”  He believes fervently that the Park Service’s mission includes design  and construction work superior to most commercial work. “We’re going to  be criticized for high costs,” Solon said.  Solon’s attitude is his bosses’. In fact, all of the “dozens” of  comfort stations the Denver Service Center has produced in recent years  were custom-designed and custom-built, according to center director  Charles Clapper.  There are explanations for some high costs. The outhouse paint at  Raymondskill Falls, for example, is said to have remarkable durability.  The weed seed used there — of which less than a pound was bought — was  needed to restore the natural environment. The composting toilets solved  water-quality problems. Slate roofs last 75 years.  An on-site construction supervisor from Denver was needed, according to  resident architect Solon, because Solon was too busy on other projects.  Besides, that’s standard practice on projects that Denver designs. For  the same reasons, a landscape architect from Denver was used.  As for the $102,614 in design costs, two-thirds of that money went for  construction documents. Partly, that’s because Park Service architects  specify everything, right down to the size of the hole for the lock in  the parking lot gate.  In addition, all Park Service measurements for the Raymondskill outhouse  were metric. That was to oblige a federal mandate to promote the metric  system. After two such projects, Clapper recalled, Denver concluded that  metric documents discouraged potential bidders and went back to feet and  inches.  Contractor Straka, who says he lost money on the job, had no problem  with metric specifications, he said. The problem was specifications so  tight, he continued, and an on-site inspector so insistent on them, that  “I wanted to pin him to a tree with a pick.”  Inspector Stephen Herzog acknowledges the tension. “We were like  brothers,” he recalled in a telephone interview from his new assignment  at the Grand Canyon. “One minute we were at each other’s throat; next  minute, we were pulling together hard as we could to build that  sucker.”  To lawmakers, the cost of Park Service construction is no surprise. The  same 1994 Interior Appropriations conference report that paid for the  Pennsylvania privy cautioned that “the Park Service must begin looking  at construction projects as we would our own budgets, i.e., is there a  lower cost alternative?” Two years later, investigators for the General  Accounting Office, Congress’ watchdog arm, wrote that Park Service  construction projects were “plagued by nagging suspicions that design  solutions are not achieved at minimum cost.”  To the extent Congress has pressed for reform, it’s pressed Park Service  headquarters in Washington to change its policies.  Typically that job has fallen to Deborah Weatherly, the House Interior  Appropriations subcommittee’s top staffer. When

… read more »

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Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it.

In 1978, I was a diver on the Weeks Island to Convent, LA, 54" strategic salt  dome oil reserve project.  They had a toilet called a "Destroilet" which used electricity and natural gas to vaporize everything.  We  It was all stainless steel, and made space ship noises once you left the thing  and closed the door.  With R&D, probably $500k.  Of course, all the animals  could still shit where they pleased.  I thought a regular Porta-potty would  have been sufficient.   Steve, the DsrtTravlr  

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What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag?               ~                  Brett J. Nodello                ~                       ~  http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/Trails/1039/  ~           – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

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Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

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Question:

Well, this may be my last posting for a while, looks like Im going to have to give up my internet service unless a miracle happens!  My ex says he cant pay support this month, What are you doing using child support money to pay for your Internet charges?  That’s exactly what gets men so pissed off and makes it so hard for those of us women who are trying to fight deadbeats who refuse to pay support.  

Did you really think about this reply before you posted it?  If one parent doesn’t pay his/her half of the child support, that other half comes from *guess where*!  The money APART from the money  you already used to pay for your own half of the childs support !  SO are you saying that this woman has no right to anything for herself because she is the custodial parent and the non-custodial parent didn’t pay his share?  What do you suppose the non custodial parent (ncp) did with that child support money that he didn’t send?  I would imagine he would be able to pay for a lot more than an ISP monthly payment with it. THis person came looking for some support, someone who could hear her anguish and offer some empathy and instead she gets her teeth bashed in.  What a  GREAT group!

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YAAAAYYY, Patricia! Glad to hear it, congratulations and all!!! Tracey

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, this may be my last posting for a while, looks like Im going to have to give up my internet service unless a miracle happens!  My ex says he cant pay support this month, What are you doing using child support money to pay for your Internet charges?  That’s exactly what gets men so pissed off and makes it so hard for those of us women who are trying to fight deadbeats who refuse to pay support.  This kind of thing is exactly what those men are afraid of – women who use the money for the wrong things.  so hes defaulting on payments…one more fight for me.  My unemployment insurance ends in a week. Ever thought of getting a job? So do the math….no support payments, no job = homeless very quickly.  My lawyer wants to be paid, but I cant pay him.  This is all a nightmare. IF any of you live in Orange County California and can use a good employee who is computer literate, please email me. You may be computer literate but your English and grammar are hopeless – you’ll have difficulty getting a job in the computer world without those skills. My internet charges are only 19 a month…less than 30 cents a day.  How much do you spend on beer or cigarettes?  I use my computer for more than this "support" group.  I am accessing newspapers, on line job boards, faxing my resume out, and I use it for my daughter’s homework. I could go spend $50 a session for a shrink.  I thought being on this NG would be support enough that I could get a support "group" along with my internet charges…..maybe Im wrong.  Why dont you go throw your rocks at your own house? Pat

Susan:  Im sure many of the people who use this NG and casual emails would agree that grammar and spelling go on the wayside when used in this venue.  This is not a business situation where I would watch my P’s and Q’s.  My spelling and grammar are excellent.  You are way too smug to be in a support group. For the rest of my friends out there:  I FOUND A JOB!!! I will be working in a legal office 5 days a week.  The hours are perfect, and pay is adequate.  And you know WHAT SUSAN??? I’ll be paying for the internet with my OWN money. Patricia

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Well, this may be my last posting for a while, looks like Im going to have to give up my internet service unless a miracle happens!  My ex says he cant pay support this month, What are you doing using child support money to pay for your Internet charges?

Have you considered the possibility that she was using the support money to pay the _proper_ expenses, and using her own to pay for internet? Brian (no, the other one)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, this may be my last posting for a while, looks like Im going to have to give up my internet service unless a miracle happens!  My ex says he cant pay support this month, What are you doing using child support money to pay for your Internet charges?  That’s exactly what gets men so pissed off and makes it so hard for those of us women who are trying to fight deadbeats who refuse to pay support.  This kind of thing is exactly what those men are afraid of – women who use the money for the wrong things.  so hes defaulting on payments…one more fight for me.  My unemployment insurance ends in a week. Ever thought of getting a job? So do the math….no support payments, no job = homeless very quickly.  My lawyer wants to be paid, but I cant pay him.  This is all a nightmare. IF any of you live in Orange County California and can use a good employee who is computer literate, please email me. You may be computer literate but your English and grammar are hopeless – you’ll have difficulty getting a job in the computer world without those skills.

My internet charges are only 19 a month…less than 30 cents a day.  How much do you spend on beer or cigarettes?  I use my computer for more than this "support" group.  I am accessing newspapers, on line job boards, faxing my resume out, and I use it for my daughter’s homework.   I could go spend $50 a session for a shrink.  I thought being on this NG would be support enough that I could get a support "group" along with my internet charges…..maybe Im wrong.  Why dont you go throw your rocks at your own house? Pat

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Like this happened overnight….right? You LET yourself deteriorate to being homeless! Get up off your god damn lazy ass and get a freaking job at McDonald’s or something. STop your sniveling crap expecting sympathy. You brought this upon yourself by doing nothing, how long has this been in the works?

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 This is all a nightmare. IF any of you live in Orange County California and can use a good employee who is computer literate, please email me.

I’m not from California, but you might try contacting several temporary agencies such as Manpower, Kelly, etc.–there’s probably dozens in your area.  Temp agencies are great ways of getting quick jobs that are better than working in the service industry.  You can get quick data entry, computer programming, office & secretarial, etc. which will pay better than average.  They are also a great way to get full-time permanent positions.  Often companies will hire temps as a way to screen for new employees.  Good luck! You can do it!

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Well, this may be my last posting for a while, looks like Im going to have to give up my internet service unless a miracle happens!  My ex says he cant pay support this month,

What are you doing using child support money to pay for your Internet charges?  That’s exactly what gets men so pissed off and makes it so hard for those of us women who are trying to fight deadbeats who refuse to pay support.  This kind of thing is exactly what those men are afraid of – women who use the money for the wrong things.    so hes defaulting on payments…one more fight for me.  My unemployment insurance ends in a week.  

Ever thought of getting a job? So do the math….no support payments, no job = homeless very quickly.  My lawyer wants to be paid, but I cant pay him.  This is all a nightmare. IF any of you live in Orange County California and can use a good employee who is computer literate, please email me.

You may be computer literate but your English and grammar are hopeless – you’ll have difficulty getting a job in the computer world without those skills.

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Pat, I don’t live in Orange County, but maybe these can help… I worked at what is now called Peek Traffic – Signal Control Company in Salem OR.  I’ve made some friends, but didn’t keep in contal (kick myself in the butt for that one)…  I ran the A/P department, and had the last name of Brown.  It has been only eight years since I’ve been there, so this is the best I can do… Econolite Control Products, Inc. 3360 E. La Palma Ave. Anaheim, CA 92806 Phone (714) 630-3700 I knew someone by the name of Chuch Crews.  Loved talking to him on the phone.  He had the best sounding voice I’ve ever heard, and would have loved to gone skiing with him.  He asked if I’d go one time when he was planning on coming to Oregon, but I left my job there and went on to II Morrow Inc.  He would work in the Accounting Department if he is still there.  I don’t think he’ll remember me, but you can try…. Once again I went by the name of Tracy Brown.  And just in case you do mention me, and he remembers me… tell him I’d still love going skiing with him and he can teach me… Peek Traffic – Signal Maintenance Inc. 2283 Via Burton Street Anaheim, CA 92806 Telephone 714-563-4000 Sub company of Peek Traffic and Signal Control… Signal Control Company was bought out by Peek Traffic a fews years ago.  Since then I know they have been doing many changes, but it is a try.  I don’t think anyone still works there that I dealt with.  One of my job functions was to take their a/p stuff, verify it, and send it on it’s merrily way to be paid.  Quite interesting job…. Good luck, Tracy http://www.engr.orst.edu/~browntr/      | http://www.teleport.com/~tracyh/ I would like to find a man who wants    | Have you told your children to be married and a father for life.    | you love them today? "The only safe computer is a dead computer" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, this may be my last posting for a while, looks like Im going to have to give up my internet service unless a miracle happens!  My ex says he cant pay support this month, so hes defaulting on payments…one more fight for me.  My unemployment insurance ends in a week.  So do the math….no support payments, no job = homeless very quickly.  My lawyer wants to be paid, but I cant pay him.  This is all a nightmare. IF any of you live in Orange County California and can use a good employee who is computer literate, please email me.

Response:

Well, this may be my last posting for a while, looks like Im going to have to give up my internet service unless a miracle happens!  My ex says he cant pay support this month, so hes defaulting on payments…one more fight for me.  My unemployment insurance ends in a week.  So do the math….no support payments, no job = homeless very quickly.  My lawyer wants to be paid, but I cant pay him.  This is all a nightmare. IF any of you live in Orange County California and can use a good employee who is computer literate, please email me.

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