Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excuse me if this question has been asked recently, I couldn’t find it. I’m starting out as a self-employed photographer and I’m setting up quickbooks. I’ve learned that the art is in deciding exactly how much information you’re going to be giving it, so you don’t waste time in the future. My question is: How do I choose my financial year? I presume it has something to do with seasonal business, which mine is to some extent, since a lot of my profit is made during the wedding season (roughly June-Sept). Many thanks, Richard

For the most part, unless you ask IRS for permission to do so, you, by default, must choose a calendar-year end (December 31). Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

Excuse me if this question has been asked recently, I couldn’t find it. I’m starting out as a self-employed photographer and I’m setting up quickbooks. I’ve learned that the art is in deciding exactly how much information you’re going to be giving it, so you don’t waste time in the future. My question is: How do I choose my financial year? I presume it has something to do with seasonal business, which mine is to some extent, since a lot of my profit is made during the wedding season (roughly June-Sept). Many thanks, Richard

there are limitations for income taxes  (S-corps,etc)  that encourage calendar financial yearends so stick with that unless an accountant says otherwise.

Response:

My question is: How do I choose my financial year? I presume it has something to do with seasonal business, which mine is to some extent, since a lot of my profit is made during the wedding season (roughly June-Sept).

Since you have not indicated otherwise I am assuming you are doing business as yourself.  Unless you have already gone to considerable effort to do otherwise, you are by default a calendar year (Year ending 12/31) taxpayer.   While there can be some benefit to having a fiscal year other the calendar year, it does come with a price – namely you most likely would need to be doing business as a "C" corporation (assuming you are in the US). Jim Hudspeth

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Excuse me if this question has been asked recently, I couldn’t find it. I’m starting out as a self-employed photographer and I’m setting up quickbooks. I’ve learned that the art is in deciding exactly how much information you’re going to be giving it, so you don’t waste time in the future. My question is: How do I choose my financial year? I presume it has something to do with seasonal business, which mine is to some extent, since a lot of my profit is made during the wedding season (roughly June-Sept). Many thanks, Richard

Whichever year end you choose you’ll still end up with the same months each year. — Peter Saxton from London

Response:

In some jurisdictions, in my case Canada, there are certain rules that are set by the government (see the excerpt shown below from the the CCRA (Canada Customs & Revenue Agency) entitled Fiscal Period. If you have the freedom to select the fiscal year (e.g., as we do for incorporated companies) you have various factors to consider: 1. Anyone involved in merchandising usually picks an off-season when inventory levels are low. 2. Since filing of tax returns has to occur within a certain time-line from the end of the fiscal period and if one requires an audit or review engagement from an accountant, some people pick year-ends that allow them to obtain these professional services in the "off-seasons" of accountants. 3. Although each fiscal year consists of 12 months, that does not apply to the first year of operations. In our jurisdiction, the first fiscal year is any period not exceeding 12 months. E.g., if you pick a fiscal year-end of December 31 and commence your business on October 27th then you first fiscal year will consist of 2+ months (66 days) Whatever you do, you can’t afford not to establish a quality relationship with an accountant who can and should advise you on many aspects of your business development and the sooner you do that the better. His/her fees is money well spent. Wolfgang Rochow Fiscal period You have to report your business income on an annual basis. For sole proprietorships, professional corporations that are members of a partnership, and partnerships in which at least one member is an individual, professional corporation, or another affected partnership, your business income is generally reported on a calendar-year basis. If you are a sole proprietorship or in a partnership in which all the members are individuals, you can elect to have a non-calendar year fiscal period. To do this, use Form T1139, Reconciliation of Business Income for Tax Purposes (revised annually) to file your election. You need to file this form by a certain date. For more information, see the guide called Reconciliation of Business Income for Tax Purposes. A corporation can choose a fiscal period that ends on any date. The corporation has to file its income tax return within six months of the end of its fiscal period. The rules governing fiscal periods are complicated. It’s a good idea to get familiar with them before you get into business. For more information, see our income tax guide called Business and Professional Income.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excuse me if this question has been asked recently, I couldn’t find it. I’m starting out as a self-employed photographer and I’m setting up quickbooks. I’ve learned that the art is in deciding exactly how much information you’re going to be giving it, so you don’t waste time in the future. My question is: How do I choose my financial year? I presume it has something to do with seasonal business, which mine is to some extent, since a lot of my profit is made during the wedding season (roughly June-Sept). Many thanks, Richard

Response:

Excuse me if this question has been asked recently, I couldn’t find it. I’m starting out as a self-employed photographer and I’m setting up quickbooks. I’ve learned that the art is in deciding exactly how much information you’re going to be giving it, so you don’t waste time in the future. My question is: How do I choose my financial year? I presume it has something to do with seasonal business, which mine is to some extent, since a lot of my profit is made during the wedding season (roughly June-Sept). Many thanks, Richard

Response:

Question:

I noticed several times in today’s telecast of the Accenture Match Play final that the announcers said that if Tiger won (he did) it would be his 36th PGA Tour win and tie him for 11th on the all-time list. This doesn’t match what I have and wonder if somebody could tell me where I’m off.  What I have is: 1.  Sam Snead (81)  2.  Jack Nicklaus (70)  3.  Ben Hogan (63)  4.  Arnold Palmer (60)  5.  Byron Nelson (52)  6.  Billy Casper (51)  7.  Walter Hagen (40)       Cary Middlecoff (40)  9.  Gene Sarazen (38) 10.  Lloyd Mangrum (36)         Tiger Woods (36) — as of today’s win.

Response:

Wow, Billy Casper won THAT many? Hardly ever here his name. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed several times in today’s telecast of the Accenture Match Play final that the announcers said that if Tiger won (he did) it would be his 36th PGA Tour win and tie him for 11th on the all-time list. This doesn’t match what I have and wonder if somebody could tell me where I’m off.  What I have is: 1.  Sam Snead (81) 2.  Jack Nicklaus (70) 3.  Ben Hogan (63) 4.  Arnold Palmer (60) 5.  Byron Nelson (52) 6.  Billy Casper (51) 7.  Walter Hagen (40)      Cary Middlecoff (40) 9.  Gene Sarazen (38) 10.  Lloyd Mangrum (36)        Tiger Woods (36) — as of today’s win.

Response:

Wow, Billy Casper won THAT many? Hardly ever here his name.

No kidding, that’s why I’d place him pretty high on the list of underrated players. ‘Big Three’ didn’t have room for Casper, apparently. —       http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=hayesd         http://rec-sport-golf.com/newsgroup/charter.html   If this post does not meet the goals of the charter, please email me.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed several times in today’s telecast of the Accenture Match Play final that the announcers said that if Tiger won (he did) it would be his 36th PGA Tour win and tie him for 11th on the all-time list. This doesn’t match what I have and wonder if somebody could tell me where I’m off.  What I have is: 1.  Sam Snead (81)  2.  Jack Nicklaus (70)  3.  Ben Hogan (63)  4.  Arnold Palmer (60)  5.  Byron Nelson (52)  6.  Billy Casper (51)  7.  Walter Hagen (40)       Cary Middlecoff (40)  9.  Gene Sarazen (38) 10.  Lloyd Mangrum (36)         Tiger Woods (36) — as of today’s win.

Aha! I figured it out myself. What I had was before the "old" records were corrected for the fact that British Open wins were  not counted as PGA wins until recently.  The top of the new list is now: 1. Sam Snead             – 82 2.  Jack Nicklaus         – 73 3.  Ben Hogan             – 64 4.  Arnold Palmer         – 62 5.  Byron Nelson          - 52 6.  Billy Casper          - 51 7.  Walter Hagen          - 44 8.  Cary Middlecoff       – 40 9.  Gene Sarazen          - 39 10.  Tom Watson            - 39 11.  Lloyd Mangrum         – 36        Tiger Woods           – 36

Response:

Aha! I figured it out myself. What I had was before the "old" records were corrected for the fact that British Open wins were  not counted as PGA wins until recently.

Giving Watson a rather nice bump up from 34 to 39.

Response:

Wow, Billy Casper won THAT many? Hardly ever here his name. No kidding, that’s why I’d place him pretty high on the list of underrated players.

He would be numero uno by far on my short list of underrateds. Billy never got on well with the galleries or the media back then.

Response:

Wow, Billy Casper won THAT many? Hardly ever here his name.

Yeah.  He was very, very good.  Won a few majors as well. "Casper won 51 PGA Tour events, including two U.S. Opens and a Masters. He was the first player to surpass $200,000 in earnings in a single season. He had such a smooth putting stroke, it would make Ben Crenshaw blush. He was a member of eight Ryder Cup teams, winning more points, 23.5, than any other American player. His five Vardon Trophies are a record, matched only by Lee Trevino. He was PGA Player of the Year in 1966 and 1970." "Indeed, Casper is best known for being overlooked. He won at least one tournament a year from 1956 through 1971, and during the heyday of the Big Three – from 1964 to 1970 – he won 27 tour events, including two majors; Palmer won 15 and one major; Nicklaus won 23 with five majors; Player won five, with two majors. Casper won six tournaments in 1968 and four each in 1964, 1965, 1966 and 1970". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed several times in today’s telecast of the Accenture Match Play final that the announcers said that if Tiger won (he did) it would be his 36th PGA Tour win and tie him for 11th on the all-time list. This doesn’t match what I have and wonder if somebody could tell me where I’m off.  What I have is: 1.  Sam Snead (81) 2.  Jack Nicklaus (70) 3.  Ben Hogan (63) 4.  Arnold Palmer (60) 5.  Byron Nelson (52) 6.  Billy Casper (51) 7.  Walter Hagen (40)      Cary Middlecoff (40) 9.  Gene Sarazen (38) 10.  Lloyd Mangrum (36)        Tiger Woods (36) — as of today’s win.

Response:

Wow, Billy Casper won THAT many? Hardly ever here his name. No kidding, that’s why I’d place him pretty high on the list of underrated players. He would be numero uno by far on my short list of underrateds. Billy never got on well with the galleries or the media back then.

I wouldn’t argue that point.   I went with the ‘pretty high’ answer rather than anointing him #1 because I didn’t feel like doing the research to prove that he’s the most underrated (which is pretty subjective anyway). —       http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=hayesd         http://rec-sport-golf.com/newsgroup/charter.html   If this post does not meet the goals of the charter, please email me.

Response:

Wow, Billy Casper won THAT many? Hardly ever here his name. No kidding, that’s why I’d place him pretty high on the list of underrated players. ‘Big Three’ didn’t have room for Casper, apparently.

And to a lesser extent, Bruce Crampton (14 wins between 1961-1975) had the same problem.  I once read an accounting of how many times Crampton finished in second place behind Jack Nicklaus and the conclusion that he would have been regarded as one of the all-time greats if the Golden Bear had stuck to football. Doug —  ___,  Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer  o    IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont           |   |    Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752                |  /                                                                |    .   My homepage:  http://doug.obscurestuff.com                  (|)

Response:

let’s see what Tiger W’s record will be when he is done with the PGA…. I’d say at least 100 wins. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aha! I figured it out myself. What I had was before the "old" records were corrected for the fact that British Open wins were  not counted as PGA wins until recently. Giving Watson a rather nice bump up from 34 to 39.

Response:

let’s see what Tiger W’s record will be when he is done with the PGA…. I’d say at least 100 wins.

How many times do you think he will play during his PGA tour? How many times did he play last year?   How many times did he win? Do you think he will play more or less as he gets older? If he accepts Jack’s definition of "greatest", and follows his lead to concentrate on majors – he may fall short of Snead’s record.  After all, Snead played to make a living and played LOTS of tournaments.

Response:

let’s see what Tiger W’s record will be when he is done with the PGA…. I’d say at least 100 wins.

I suspect that the two primary goals Tiger set for himself professionally are 25 majors and 100 PGA Tour wins.  He might consider his 3 US Am’s as majors and therefore is shooting for 22 professional majors, or he might have 20 or 25 as the professional major goal (either way, he surpasses Nicklaus).  But I’d bet dollars to donuts that a nice round 100 wins on tour is a concrete goal of his. 36 down, 64 to go.  And he hasn’t completed seven full seasons on Tour. My god, he’s only 27 — he’s just now reaching the age where the all-time PGA Tour greats (Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, Snead, Watson) are just starting their prime years. Jack started strong, but had an uptick in performance stating in year #11, when he was 31 (I think). Arnie’s uptick was in year seven, at age 28. Snead had a nice stretch in years 5-9, then another in years 14-21. Watson didn’t do much until year 8, then played great through year 13. http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/golf/tiger.htm Coming into this year, he was nine wins ahead of Nicklaus, 13 ahead of Palmer, and 17 ahead of Snead, and 31 ahead of Watson.  Turned on its side, he was almost two full years ahead of Palmer, more than three years ahead of Nicklaus, seven years ahead of Snead and eight years ahead of Watson. No matter how you look at it, it’s truly astonishing.  No one is supposed to be able to win this much. Doug —  ___,  Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer  o    IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont           |   |    Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752                |  /                                                                |    .   My homepage:  http://doug.obscurestuff.com                  (|)

Response:

Casper won 51 PGA Tour events, including two U.S. Opens and a Masters. He was the first player to surpass $200,000 in earnings in a single season. He had such a smooth putting stroke, it would make Ben Crenshaw blush. He was a member of eight Ryder Cup teams, winning more points, 23.5, than any other American player. His five Vardon Trophies are a record, matched only by Lee Trevino.

A record that Tiger looks certain to break.  He’s won the last four Vardon trophies in a row, and I sure wouldn’t bet against him this year. A look at the list of Vardon trophy winners reveals an even more surpising fact — Nicklaus didn’t win a single one.

Response:

Coming into this year, he was nine wins ahead of Nicklaus, 13 ahead of Palmer

On Palmer: When Arnie turned 27, which was on Sept. 10, 1956, he had a grand total of 3 PGA wins. When Tiger turned 27, on Dec. 30, 2002, he had 34 PGA wins. So Tiger is 31 ahead of Palmer on that basis. Palmer won his 36th PGA tournament at the LA Open in 1963, when he was 33.

Response:

"Casper won 51 PGA Tour events, including two U.S. Opens and a Masters. He was the first player to surpass $200,000 in earnings in a single season. He had such a smooth putting stroke, it would make Ben Crenshaw blush.

That’s not accurate about Casper’s putting stroke. It was not at all a smooth motion like Crenshaw’s. Casper was a brilliant putter, but he was an all wrist jab putter who "popped" the ball at the hole.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Casper won 51 PGA Tour events, including two U.S. Opens and a Masters. He was the first player to surpass $200,000 in earnings in a single season. He had such a smooth putting stroke, it would make Ben Crenshaw blush. He was a member of eight Ryder Cup teams, winning more points, 23.5, than any other American player. His five Vardon Trophies are a record, matched only by Lee Trevino. A record that Tiger looks certain to break.  He’s won the last four Vardon trophies in a row, and I sure wouldn’t bet against him this year. A look at the list of Vardon trophy winners reveals an even more surpising fact — Nicklaus didn’t win a single one.

Hell, if Tiger averages 4 wins per year for the next 4 years, he will be tied with Byron Nelson for 5th place on the career wins list.  It does not look like he will have trouble doing that and he will only be 31 yrs old when he gets there (and that’s assuming only 4 wins per year).

Response:

"Casper won 51 PGA Tour events, including two U.S. Opens and a Masters. He was the first player to surpass $200,000 in earnings in a single season. He had such a smooth putting stroke, it would make Ben Crenshaw blush. That’s not accurate about Casper’s putting stroke. It was not at all a smooth motion like Crenshaw’s. Casper was a brilliant putter, but he was an all wrist jab putter who "popped" the ball at the hole.

His record speaks for itself, but his technique has sports writers speaking for it.  I remember seeing him play in the mid 60’s but I am 49 yrs old so I was maybe 10 to 12 when I watched him and had no idea of what to look for. When I see the old Shell WW of Golf videos, most pros in the early to mid 60’s seemed to pop the ball towards the hole, so I would not be surprised that Casper did as well.  I don’t know how those guys made so many puts.

Response:

Wow, Billy Casper won THAT many? Hardly ever here his name.

Apparently  he has a golf course management company.  My local, county owned course, Tri-Mountain in Ridgefield, Washington (just north of Portland, Oregon) has just signed a contract with them. — Mike Bowen (for reply must edit email address)

Response:

Coming into this year, he was nine wins ahead of Nicklaus, 13 ahead of Palmer On Palmer: When Arnie turned 27, which was on Sept. 10, 1956, he had a grand total of 3 PGA wins. When Tiger turned 27, on Dec. 30, 2002, he had 34 PGA wins. So Tiger is 31 ahead of Palmer on that basis. Palmer won his 36th PGA tournament at the LA Open in 1963, when he was 33.

While this is true, it also points out that between the two dats, Palmer won 33 tournaments and 8 majors(?). About the same as Woods for his best 6 year span. Whoda thunk in early 1963, after winning that LA Open, that Palmer would tail off, winning only one more major? Rob — GOP (Golf Only Pledge…I will only initiate golf related threads) Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~frostback2002)

Response:

Casper won 51 PGA Tour events, including two U.S. Opens and a Masters. He was the first player to surpass $200,000 in earnings in a single season. He had such a smooth putting stroke, it would make Ben Crenshaw blush. He was a member of eight Ryder Cup teams, winning more points, 23.5, than any other American player. His five Vardon Trophies are a record, matched only by Lee Trevino. A record that Tiger looks certain to break.  He’s won the last four Vardon trophies in a row, and I sure wouldn’t bet against him this year. A look at the list of Vardon trophy winners reveals an even more surpising fact — Nicklaus didn’t win a single one.

Really?!?  I find that extremely surprising.  The award has been given out since 1937, so it’s not like he wasn’t eligible or something. I would have bet and lost a large sum of money on that.  The award was dominated by Palmer and Casper in the 60’s, by Trevino, Crampton, and Watson in the 70’s and by Tom Kite in Nicklaus’ last couple of good years in the 80’s.  Amazing. The only conceivable explanation I can think of is that Nicklaus restricted his play to the most difficult events with the strongest fields, thus inflating his stroke average (even if it were mathematically adjusted for the average score in the tournament). Doug —  ___,  Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer  o    IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont           |   |    Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752                |  /                                                                |    .   My homepage:  http://doug.obscurestuff.com                  (|)

Response:

His record speaks for itself, but his technique has sports writers speaking for it.  I remember seeing him play in the mid 60’s but I am 49 yrs old so I was maybe 10 to 12 when I watched him and had no idea of what to look for. When I see the old Shell WW of Golf videos, most pros in the early to mid 60’s seemed to pop the ball towards the hole, so I would not be surprised that Casper did as well.  I don’t know how those guys made so many puts.

  Greens back then weren’t as well manicured as they are today. A pop stroke   works suprisingly well on slower shaggy greens. I usually resort to this   whenever I play one of the local Atlanta muni’s which are famous for their   crappy greens. me

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Casper won 51 PGA Tour events, including two U.S. Opens and a Masters. He was the first player to surpass $200,000 in earnings in a single season. He had such a smooth putting stroke, it would make Ben Crenshaw blush. He was a member of eight Ryder Cup teams, winning more points, 23.5, than any other American player. His five Vardon Trophies are a record, matched only by Lee Trevino. A record that Tiger looks certain to break.  He’s won the last four Vardon trophies in a row, and I sure wouldn’t bet against him this year. A look at the list of Vardon trophy winners reveals an even more surpising fact — Nicklaus didn’t win a single one. Really?!?  I find that extremely surprising.  The award has been given out since 1937, so it’s not like he wasn’t eligible or something. I would have bet and lost a large sum of money on that.  The award was dominated by Palmer and Casper in the 60’s, by Trevino, Crampton, and Watson in the 70’s and by Tom Kite in Nicklaus’ last couple of good years in the 80’s.  Amazing. The only conceivable explanation I can think of is that Nicklaus restricted his play to the most difficult events with the strongest fields, thus inflating his stroke average (even if it were mathematically adjusted for the average score in the tournament).

This guess seems quite plausible to me, and if true, would of course apply similarly to Woods, making his four in a row the more remarkable.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A look at the list of Vardon trophy winners reveals an even more surpising fact — Nicklaus didn’t win a single one. Really?!?  I find that extremely surprising.  The award has been given out since 1937, so it’s not like he wasn’t eligible or something. I would have bet and lost a large sum of money on that.  The award was dominated by Palmer and Casper in the 60’s, by Trevino, Crampton, and Watson in the 70’s and by Tom Kite in Nicklaus’ last couple of good years in the 80’s.  Amazing. The only conceivable explanation I can think of is that Nicklaus restricted his play to the most difficult events with the strongest fields, thus inflating his stroke average (even if it were mathematically adjusted for the average score in the tournament). This guess seems quite plausible to me, and if true, would of course apply similarly to Woods, making his four in a row the more remarkable.

Or, despite his top ten finishes, he had quite a number of back of the pack finishes during the season.  This would bring his stroke average down despite a number of wins.   B. Martin

Response:

On Palmer: When Arnie turned 27, which was on Sept. 10, 1956, he had a grand total of 3 PGA wins. When Tiger turned 27, on Dec. 30, 2002, he had 34 PGA wins. So Tiger is 31 ahead of Palmer on that basis. Palmer won his 36th PGA tournament at the LA Open in 1963, when he was 33.

As an aside: I followed Arnie with my mom during the Wednesday practice round of that very same ‘63 LA Open. I was nine years old. I still remember in vivid detail a 6 iron he hit for his second shot at some par 4 at Rancho Park. These were the days when, during the practice rounds, you could stand in the fairway close to the players and watch their second shots. So there I was about 10 feet behind him. He ripped through the turf and hit a shot so straight and long to my 9 year old mind I could hardly believe it. It was 7 feet left of the pin on a green that seemed miles away. As a further aside, and this is a true story, Arnie had developed a crush on my mom during the day – which he is why he put his arm around me at one point and asked how I was doing.  Of course I had no idea what was going on and just assumed he liked me for some reason.  Four days later he gave my mom the ball he won the tournament with after holing out on 18 on Sunday. The crowd was calling for Arnie to toss the ball to them, but no dice. A few years ago my mother gave me that ball and l still have it.

Response:

Hell, if Tiger averages 4 wins per year for the next 4 years, he will be tied with Byron Nelson for 5th place on the career wins list.  It does not look like he will have trouble doing that and he will only be 31 yrs old when he gets there (and that’s assuming only 4 wins per year).

Tiger is also on track to break Nelson’s record for consecutive cuts, possibly this year.  Nelson had 113, Tiger has 98.

Response:

Question:

The scene I remember from 3rd grade was how to drop to the floor and get under the desk in case of nuclear attack from Russian bombers. I wonder how many are still keeping up their fallout shelters?

We did that too, only it was "what to do in case of a tornado".  Man, those desks must be made out of something really spectacular to protect against all that.  Maybe we should use that material exclusively. — Todd Stephens

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The scene I remember from 3rd grade was how to drop to the floor and get under the desk in case of nuclear attack from Russian bombers. I wonder how many are still keeping up their fallout shelters? We did that too, only it was "what to do in case of a tornado".  Man, those desks must be made out of something really spectacular to protect against all that.  Maybe we should use that material exclusively. — Todd Stephens

Actually it is a statistical ploy. If you don’t get the children under the desks you stand a certain probability of loosing X. If you get the children under the desk you have the same probability of loosing X-Y. This is after the school administrators did the cost benefit analysis building a tornado cellar and decided it wasn’t worth saving X-Y-Z. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

ROn said missile shield.  But BushCo seems to think that any old terrorist group can No, I don’t buy that.  I think they have very specific concerns, and I think they are very real. After all, the folks who have plans against the U.S. know they are right and they will prevail.  They are quite convinced to their historical superiority and inevitability.  Remember, to most of the world, the U.S. is a mistake of history.

Mistake or no mistake, the US is certainly the most over-armed and militaristic of any country on earth today.  Right or wrong then, having chosen the path of military force, and now even the doctrine of unilateral first-strike, the destiny of the United States is eventually, to be defeated in war.  Not in 2003 but not in 100 years either. Try, 10-20. Plainly, the US already has above-average likelihood of repeated large-scale hits from nuclear or other WMDs in the coming decades.  In Seattle you can see it in the faces. All of the agencies take it toally seriously.  Our billionnaires know Seattle is first in line.  We break more cases than anywhere else. Ressam, Mohammad/malvo, hawala networks.  We shut down the whole airport when somebody runs thru the checkpoints. Nobody cares much about the container port.  That is a writeoff.  The ports can’t be protected.  We’re more afraid the terrorists might hit our marinas, corporate conference centers, Microsoft campus. the skyboxes, the club.  …places where hundreds of millionnaires could be killed by a single blast.  The people who are the decisionmakers, planners and beneficiaries of America’s policies. We know we can’t stop a WMD in downtown Seattle.  Some believe, this was one factor in Boeing’s executives moving to Chicago.   We know the property values will lose 20% to 50% of their value   around the region after they’re dusted with fallout. We can absorb that.  We can amortize that. We can always move. We know that small cells of terrorists can make a big impact. It’s only a wonder how long it took the arabs to read American websites and soldiers’ and weapons magazines, and figure it out for themselves. New York and Washington DC want you to defend America, saying, this is your fight (to be in the middle east, defending Israel, defending autocratic regimes, defending christianity, controlling the oil).  Saying, this is America’s vital interests. We are supposed to get behind these pre-emptive strikes, to wipe out all those darn terrorists.  Just wipe them out. hmm seems a bit dubious to me.  First you have to find them all.  There are more than 1 billion people in all the islamic countries. And meanwhile we’re still at the stage where it takes 9-11 to make overconfident America take a simple step like locking the cockpit doors.  There are 100s of wide-open vulnerabilities.  Mad cow, anyone?  Amazingly, we have not even seen car bombs in the US, or any devices air freight parcels or luggage. One reason not to bomb other countries: some of them will hate us.  Does that matter?  Yes.  That matters. Does the question of who’s right, change the costs of having terrorists hate America?  No.  The costs are the same.   Top spots to emigrate?  I’m thinking, this depends on the scenario you’re afraid of.  If you expect global breakdown and starvation you would be better off in rural US where there’s food and "well-regulated militias".  But if you expect the US to come under ongoing terrorist seige, then, you might be better off in Canada or Mexico, because in that scenario your own cops and neighbors will be such a pain in the ass, they will become more costly than the terrorists.. isn’t that what is happening already? Todd

Response:

President Bush Tuesday ordered the military to begin deploying a national missile defense system with 10 interceptor rockets at a base in Alaska by 2004. Alaska?  Are we expecting a renewed cold war with Russia?

Russian and China would both be able to overpower almost and missile shield. North Korea can almost, and probably actually can, hit Alaska.  They’ll have good ICBM’s within a few years.  In my mind, engaging the North Koreans and having them dismantle their program is a lot cheaper than building the missile shield.  But BushCo seems to think that any old terrorist group can -=john=-

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – U.S. to Begin Missile Defense Deployment By Charles Aldinger Reuters Tuesday, December 17, 2002; 10:53 AM President Bush Tuesday ordered the military to begin deploying a national missile defense system with 10 interceptor rockets at a base in Alaska by 2004. <snip Erecting such a shield is the Pentagon’s single most expensive development program, likely to cost hundreds of billions of dollars over coming decades. <snip http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1349-2002Dec17.html Yes Ron, it’s from the Washington Post. Before you discount the Post entirely, you might want to remember Watergate. The political opposite of "right" is "left", not "wrong". Jim

Ignore the Post, go look at the Budget. See where the money goes. The Post has only ONE agenda. You may have trouble understanding this, but solely because you are an American citizen, and for no other reason, there are a huge number of people on this planet who want you dead.  Regardless of what others say, there is nothing you can do to change their mind. A couple hundred billion for a missle defense system is chump change when you do a cost benefit analysis. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

President Bush Tuesday ordered the military to begin deploying a national missile defense system with 10 interceptor rockets at a base in Alaska by 2004. Alaska?  Are we expecting a renewed cold war with Russia? — Todd Stephens

Great circle shots over the pole. Take a tape measure and a globe. From many places the shortest route to your front yard is over the pole. — *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – President Bush Tuesday ordered the military to begin deploying a national missile defense system with 10 interceptor rockets at a base in Alaska by 2004. Alaska?  Are we expecting a renewed cold war with Russia? Not that I know of.  More likely a not so cold war with China. Jim It would also be a good base to defend against Korean missile attacks– if it worked consistently and reliably.  Maybe it will by the time it is deployed and mod 62 goes into effect.  The politicians, being politicians, consistently criticize the defense dept for deploying and even going into production long before deployment is authorized.

Yes, because of the long lead time they buy on the concept and then have to work it out on the production line. This was the rationale French politicians used in the 1930s.  They had some really nice defensive hardware, but it "just wasn’t quite right" yet.  Even at that they had a larger, and more powerful army than the Germans.  Of course the French politicians had absolutely ruined the command and control function and the rest is history. Scene from 3rd grade class:  Children, can you think of any other projects that have gone into production that didn’t work and cost millions if not billions to fix?  Class, I know it’s hard to decide upon just one instance to discuss.  Class dismissed.

Department of Education. Department of Health and Human Services. Department of Housing and Urban Development. Medicare. The scene I remember from 3rd grade was how to drop to the floor and get under the desk in case of nuclear attack from Russian bombers. I wonder how many are still keeping up their fallout shelters? How soon people forget. Tippy

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – President Bush Tuesday ordered the military to begin deploying a national missile defense system with 10 interceptor rockets at a base in Alaska by 2004. Alaska?  Are we expecting a renewed cold war with Russia? Russian and China would both be able to overpower almost and missile shield. North Korea can almost, and probably actually can, hit Alaska.  They’ll have good ICBM’s within a few years.  In my mind, engaging the North Koreans and having them dismantle their program is a lot cheaper than building the

Why on earth would the North Koreans do that? They’ve spent billions getting nuclear weapons, it would make no sense to do what ever your talking about. Don’t any of you people ever read history? missile shield.  But BushCo seems to think that any old terrorist group can

No, I don’t buy that.  I think they have very specific concerns, and I think they are very real. After all, the folks who have plans against the U.S. know they are right and they will prevail.  They are quite convinced to their historical superiority and inevitability.  Remember, to most of the world, the U.S. is a mistake of history. -=john=-

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

President Bush Tuesday ordered the military to begin deploying a national missile defense system with 10 interceptor rockets at a base in Alaska by 2004. Alaska?  Are we expecting a renewed cold war with Russia?

Not that I know of.  More likely a not so cold war with China. Jim

Response:

President Bush Tuesday ordered the military to begin deploying a national missile defense system with 10 interceptor rockets at a base in Alaska by 2004.

Alaska?  Are we expecting a renewed cold war with Russia? — Todd Stephens

Response:

U.S. to Begin Missile Defense Deployment By Charles Aldinger Reuters Tuesday, December 17, 2002; 10:53 AM President Bush Tuesday ordered the military to begin deploying a national missile defense system with 10 interceptor rockets at a base in Alaska by 2004. <snip Erecting such a shield is the Pentagon’s single most expensive development program, likely to cost hundreds of billions of dollars over coming decades. <snip http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1349-2002Dec17.html Yes Ron, it’s from the Washington Post.   Before you discount the Post entirely, you might want to remember Watergate.   The political opposite of "right" is "left", not "wrong". Jim

Response:

Question:

Jeez, man.  Where do you live?  I want to make sure to NOT move there.  Sounds like you’re taxed on your taxes.

That’s coming pretty soon I think. — The trick is to know you’re somebody without thinking you’re somebody. Dennis to Joey (Hank Ketcham)

Response:

Jeez, man.  Where do you live?  I want to make sure to NOT move there.  Sounds like you’re taxed on your taxes.

Oops.  Commented about how we’re about to be taxed on our taxes but forgot about mentioning where I live.  Kentucky.  We do get taxed pretty bad on all kinds of property but at least our cigarettes are cheaper if I happened to still smoke.  Of course, cheaper is relative.  We recently had a case where someone stole 14 cartons of cigarettes.  That’s enough to make a felony in Kentucky now.  I didn’t realize how high those things had gotten.  Last I recall they were less than $10 a carton.  It’s been awhile. — The trick is to know you’re somebody without thinking you’re somebody. Dennis to Joey (Hank Ketcham)

Response:

Young Carpenter I would suggest contacting the SBA in your area (Small Business Association), and also contact S.C.O.R.E ( group of retired business people in your area that help people starting a business), they have Been-there-done-that and volunteer their time Good luck, Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now that I have posted my 2c for a couple of days, I definitely want someone else’s. I know this is frequented by  a wide range of woodworking backgrounds. I want to start a woodworking business eventually.  Right now I am doing more handyman stuff.  I would appreciate some advice on how to get off the ground, how to deal with the IRS, how do I find a market, etc. This works for the WW or the Handyman stuff. Am I making sense? — Young Carpenter "If your not confused Your not trying hard enough!" —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

First advice is to get legal and to do so talk with a local person knowledgeable in your area’s business laws.and taxes.  Many here will tell you it so simple to do that you don’t need to do that and you should save the money.  On the other hand, they are usually the first to tell you to consult an expert like Doug Stowe if you’re wanting to make boxes.  What does some guy on the internet know about your local area’s laws?  In my case, we have a payroll/profit tax at the county level (working on city level) and state, county, city, and school property taxes on raw materials, finished goods, accounts receivable, and your tools.  One of the nicer things in the property tax is a tax on the amount of cash on hand on September 1.  This takes a local person to advise you.

Jeez, man.  Where do you live?  I want to make sure to NOT move there.  Sounds like you’re taxed on your taxes.

Response:

I agree with the puzzle guy — keep it simple.  You’re not planning to hire a bunch of employees, right?  This sounds like a one-man business which is designed to stay that way. So I don’t think you need to incorporate.  You just need to do work, get paid, and remember to pay your taxes.  Find someone (a friend, perhaps) who is willing to explain self employment taxes to you without charging you anything. Anyone who wants money for advice at this stage is probably not interested in your success.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First advice is to get legal and to do so talk with a local person knowledgeable in your area’s business laws.and taxes.  Many here will tell you it so simple to do that you don’t need to do that and you should save the money.  On the other hand, they are usually the first to tell you to consult an expert like Doug Stowe if you’re wanting to make boxes.  What does some guy on the internet know about your local area’s laws?  In my case, we have a payroll/profit tax at the county level (working on city level) and state, county, city, and school property taxes on raw materials, finished goods, accounts receivable, and your tools.  One of the nicer things in the property tax is a tax on the amount of cash on hand on September 1.  This takes a local person to advise you. Jeez, man.  Where do you live?  I want to make sure to NOT move there.  Sounds like you’re taxed on your taxes.

Sounds a little like the People’s Republic of Massechusetts.

Response:

I agree with the puzzle guy — keep it simple.  You’re not planning to hire a bunch of employees, right?  This sounds like a one-man business which is designed to stay that way. So I don’t think you need to incorporate.  You just need to do work, get paid, and remember to pay your taxes.  Find someone (a friend, perhaps) who is willing to explain self employment taxes to you without charging you anything. Anyone who wants money for advice at this stage is probably not interested in your success.

Many municipalities have organizations that will be happy to explain these things to you.  They even have classes for starting a small business, often required as part of getting the business license.  Naturally, they primarily discuss the tax collection and payment requirements.  They don’t want you to come back later, saying "I just didn’t know…". Cheers, Eric

Response:

Might be Michigan. Pretty much the same Fed/State/County/Municipality structure here.  But it gets even better when you discover business pays more for telephone, for electrical service (small usage) and such in addition to the taxes we’d go out and dump tea over….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeez, man.  Where do you live?  I want to make sure to NOT move there.  Sounds like you’re taxed on your taxes.

Response:

Well here’s my 2 cents. This comes from someone that owns his own cabinet shop and employs 1 full time and one part time employee. I started off working as a D.B.A. when I was in the Army. I did craft shows and cabinet work. I did have a sales tax license for the resale portion at craft shows. When I got out of the Army I went into it full time. It was hard at first and used a lot of my own money to keep going for about a year. To no avail I met with every contractor I could find and did 3 home shows in the area. At the same time I wasn’t proud to show up on a construction site and ask if they had someone to do their cabinets and if it were still in the air about it offered to give them a bid. Still nothing on the residential side. Stumbled onto a restaurant going in and it just so happened the owner was doing his own remodeling. He hired me to do his bar, table privacy wall partitions and a custom lighting fixture. This was a Japanese restaurant and I just so happen know how to do sho-ji work. That took almost 2000 strips of cedar for all the sho-ji lattice. Next I came across another commercial job to bid and I won it. It was a laminate and melamine cabinet job with a service desk for an auto center. I had to get workers comp and liability insurance for that job. It has been real good (except for the beginning of this year when there was almost no construction going on. People were crying 9-11). Now it’s booming. What does this little story have to do with you getting started. You can start off as a D.B.A. and find out the tax laws and get a sales tax license if you need it. (I gave mine up. Less paperwork to do and if I do a job that is tax exempt I just get a copy of the contractors tax exemption for that job and use it to purchase tax exempt supplies.) If you do handyman work I would advise you to get some liability insurance. People are always looking at a way to sue you. The problem with being sued as a D.B.A. is that they can take things like your house and auto. As an LLC, Corporation or simpler version S-Corp. they can’t touch you only what the business has as assets. These are things to think about. This is where talking with a lawyer comes in handy. As for the different type of paperwork that is needed to be filed an accountant can point you in the right direction. Something else to consider is to see where the closest SCORE office is and talk with someone there. That’s what they are for. As for your market that’s for you to decide what you want to do. I will still show up on a job site and ask. I have been able to get a hotel and a bank by stopping in and asking. Usually if you get them early enough in the beginning they are still entertaining bids for the millwork (cabinets). I have a lot of contractors outside of my area that know the business but find out that not too many locally know of us still. Eric Morehouse ELM Woodworks, LLC

Response:

Now that I have posted my 2c for a couple of days, I definitely want someone else’s. I know this is frequented by  a wide range of woodworking backgrounds. I want to start a woodworking business eventually.  Right now I am doing more handyman stuff.  I would appreciate some advice on how to get off the ground, how to deal with the IRS, how do I find a market, etc. This works for the WW or the Handyman stuff. Am I making sense? — Young Carpenter

I must disagree with the advice you’ve gotten so far. Spending your time and money on lawyers, accountants, tax consultants, business plans and research will lead to a very quick bancruptcy unless you have tons of cash you’re trying to rid yourself of. I advise you to spend your time in 2 activities – making product and selling product. Until you actually make some money you don’t need lawyers and accountants. I think a handyman/woodworking business could be pretty good. All you have to do is be honest and work hard. That’s the secret to a successful home based business. Marketing is not easy, it takes time and money. Start off with a web page with your own domain. This is essential. Since you’re in a service business you’ll need a phone with a listing in the yellow pages. Not an ad, they cost too much, but you do need to be listed. A business card is also essential. Start off by advertising to the realtors. They own lots of rental properties that need maintenance. Visit in person and leave a data sheet. Try a small ad in the paper every now and then or something in specialty magazines, perhaps to retirees who need help around the house. Try a keyword Yahoo banner ad. Try doing a few small trade shows. Just go easy on this, most of what you try won’t work but every now and then you’ll find something that does work. Time is on your side here. If you are the one who’s always there, reliable, you’ll eventually get all the work you can handle. This just takes time. Don’t try to be the fastest gun the west, hang in, outlast ‘em, and you’ll be the best. I wouldn’t waste any assets on advisors until you have a real need for one. If you actually start making money then go shopping for a CPA. Don’t spend your time "gettin’ ready", just get to work and deal with the paperwork after the customer is served and the check is in the bank. If you put anything ahead of the customer, you lose. Here are a few other things you may wish to consider: http://www.puzzlecraft.com/Projects/HTMAP/27business.htm Good Luck! — Steve Strickland, Puzzlecraft www.puzzlecraft.com

Response:

I can’t speak about the ww directly but I manage a small business so I can speak to those issues. The IRS is easy to deal with. Rule #1, always pay them first. If you don’t, they still want their money and they charge interest that will make a shilock envious. You’ll be expected to pay quarterly estimates of your projected income. Each time you complete a job, take a portion of your income and put it away in a savings account, waiting on that payment day. Make sure you don’t ever touch that money for anything else! If you have an accountant now, they can help you figure out what your payments will be. If not, start looking around for a good accountant who will work with you and help you get started. You could figure it out on our own, but you are better off focusing all your efforts on getting business and completing business, not learning accounting. Regarding finding a market, what market do you desire? Your current "handyman stuff" is a fine market if that is what you like. I have a friend in LA who I meet when he did work for me as a handy man. He ended up doing about $5K of work in replacing bathroom showers and stuff. He’s tied in with a couple of realitors who like his work and recommend him to people buying or selling. He makes a good enough living to live in LA and send his boys to school. So don’t think any market is to lowly. It’s only a matter of what you like and have fun doing. Figure out what you want to do, then you can figure out what’s the market that will support that. Bernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now that I have posted my 2c for a couple of days, I definitely want someone else’s. I know this is frequented by  a wide range of woodworking backgrounds. I want to start a woodworking business eventually.  Right now I am doing more handyman stuff.  I would appreciate some advice on how to get off the ground, how to deal with the IRS, how do I find a market, etc. This works for the WW or the Handyman stuff. Am I making sense? — Young Carpenter "If your not confused Your not trying hard enough!" —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Now that I have posted my 2c for a couple of days, I definitely want someone else’s. I know this is frequented by  a wide range of woodworking backgrounds. I want to start a woodworking business eventually.  Right now I am doing more handyman stuff.  I would appreciate some advice on how to get off the ground, how to deal with the IRS, how do I find a market, etc. This works for the WW or the Handyman stuff. Am I making sense? — Young Carpenter "If your not confused Your not trying hard enough!" —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

First advice is to get legal and to do so talk with a local person knowledgeable in your area’s business laws.and taxes.  Many here will tell you it so simple to do that you don’t need to do that and you should save the money.  On the other hand, they are usually the first to tell you to consult an expert like Doug Stowe if you’re wanting to make boxes.  What does some guy on the internet know about your local area’s laws?  In my case, we have a payroll/profit tax at the county level (working on city level) and state, county, city, and school property taxes on raw materials, finished goods, accounts receivable, and your tools.  One of the nicer things in the property tax is a tax on the amount of cash on hand on September 1.  This takes a local person to advise you. Also, consider this — when you’re sitting in an IRS, state or local tax person’s office because you have not quite followed all the rules correctly — which gets you a better likelihood of a break?  Telling the guy has an office just across the street and is locally known as an expert, advised you to do it?  Who is more likely going to be sitting beside you in that official’s office to answer questions about what was done and why? While relying on John Doe’s advise won’t get you out of paying the taxes due (and penalties and interest) it may go a long way toward how the officials decide to deal with you now and in the future — that is, criminal charges, future audits, negotiating penalties and interest, repayment schedules, etc. Consider, too, that while you’re sitting in a tax official’s office you aren’t in the shop making stuff — that’s time you don’t get paid for. This local person can also look at your particular situation in detail and help you determine the best set up for you.  Should your business entity be set up as an individual, a corporation, or a sub-chapter S corporation? What is a reasonable risk scenario in terms of insurance coverage you need? In addition to the tax aspects, liability concerns affects the decision for the type of business entity.  All this takes sitting down and talking and doing research.  You may decide to keep this person in the picture after setting up the business.  You may want to hire out bookkeeping.  A lot depends on your particular business and your level of expertise and/or willingness to learn.  I have a background in accounting and wouldn’t hesitate to do my own bookkeeping.  I would seek advice about initially setting up the business however because I have not done it.  I figure the cost  of that consultation is no different than deciding I’m going to build some boxes and buying one of Doug Stowe’s books.  That investment may well keep me from butchering $20 of good wood and wasting lot’s of my time but will teach me how to do the job not only for that box but for future boxes. It also improves my chance of success at the project. As for marketing, I make no pretense of knowing what I’m talking about. — The trick is to know you’re somebody without thinking you’re somebody. Dennis to Joey (Hank Ketcham)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now that I have posted my 2c for a couple of days, I definitely want someone else’s. I know this is frequented by  a wide range of woodworking backgrounds. I want to start a woodworking business eventually.  Right now I am doing more handyman stuff.  I would appreciate some advice on how to get off the ground, how to deal with the IRS, how do I find a market, etc. This works for the WW or the Handyman stuff. Am I making sense? — Young Carpenter "If your not confused Your not trying hard enough!" —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

The one that eats the canned is very very old and has no teeth.  Would you starve an old lady just to save yourself a trip to the grocery store? I have two inside cats and one is also a toothless old-timer.  She does manage to "gum" or swallow the dry food, but does like some of the soft stuff. How do you all get these toothless cats?   Didn’t you know you could get their teeth cleaned every year, at $150 per cat?   It’s a good thing *I* have healthy teeth.

sigh. I’m sorry.  I will not brush my cats teeth.  Just won’t do it. We feed them hard dry foods, per the vet’s instructions.  But we’re suckers for That Look, so they also get table scraps now and then. Jazzie has perfect teeth. Morty has had two teeth pulled. Misty was missing many teeth when we got her.  And, I think, over the years, my housemates were just not willing to chase her down to drag her to the vet’s. Seanna and Puma (now deceased) both had all their teeth. – Dan. — – South Jersey, USA, Earth  <http://cronus.spaceports.com/~darmok

Response:

Ya know??  I was JUST looking at my accounting records for the last 3 months.  I am starting to learn ONE thing: PayPal & Billpoint take a LOT of money!!!  :-0

Response:

| Ya know??  I was JUST looking at my accounting records for the last 3 | months.  I am starting to learn ONE thing: PayPal & Billpoint take a | LOT of money!!!  :-0 | So does eBay itself…. But still I am doing quite well with my auctions.,…. Now I am NEARLY at the stage that I really need to find THE product to sell to keep it going though

Response:

Ya know??  I was JUST looking at my accounting records for the last 3 months.  I am starting to learn ONE thing: PayPal & Billpoint take a LOT of money!!!  :-0

Not really.  You should have your own merchants account. Rita

Response:

Ya know??  I was JUST looking at my accounting records for the last 3 months.  I am starting to learn ONE thing: PayPal & Billpoint take a LOT of money!!!  :-0

And your alternative is???????

Response:

Ya know??  I was JUST looking at my accounting records for the last 3 months.  I am starting to learn ONE thing: PayPal & Billpoint take a LOT of money!!!  :-0

if theyre taking a LOT of money from you then you must be taking a LOT of money from someone.  ill bet a LOT of sellers on ebay wish they had your problem.

Response:

Ya know??  I was JUST looking at my accounting records for the last 3 months.  I am starting to learn ONE thing: PayPal & Billpoint take a LOT of money!!!  :-0 if theyre taking a LOT of money from you then you must be taking a LOT of money from someone.  ill bet a LOT of sellers on ebay wish they had your problem.

Unless he’s selling a lot of really cheap items.  That’s the only way to really end up with paypal or billpoint taking a big chunk of your gross. Richard Ward

Response:

Ya know??  I was JUST looking at my accounting records for the last 3 months.  I am starting to learn ONE thing: PayPal & Billpoint take a LOT of money!!!  :-0 Not really.  You should have your own merchants account.

PayPal’s fees are now just slightly LOWER than our merchant account (with Novus). – Dan. — – South Jersey, USA, Earth  <http://cronus.spaceports.com/~darmok

Response:

| Ya know??  I was JUST looking at my accounting records for the last | 3 months.  I am starting to learn ONE thing: PayPal & Billpoint | take a LOT of money!!!  :-0 So does eBay itself…. But still I am doing quite well with my auctions.,…. Now I am NEARLY at the stage that I really need to find THE product to sell to keep it going though

Finding THE product is like buying cat food. You find a flavour or two that the cat likes, so you buy a lot of it while it’s on sale.  The cat will then eat one more can of each flavour and refuse the rest. – Dan.   (returning four cases to PetSmart this afternoon) — – South Jersey, USA, Earth  <http://cronus.spaceports.com/~darmok

Response:

You find a flavour or two that the cat likes, so you buy a lot of it while it’s on sale.  The cat will then eat one more can of each flavour and refuse the rest. – Dan.   (returning four cases to PetSmart this afternoon)

You’d be amazed what a cat will eat after looking at an empty dish for about four days. -Fred (people smarter than pet this afternoon) — I’m a freshman in my 4th year at UCLA and my ambition is to become a veteranarian because I love children……

Response:

"Fred A. Murphy" wrote You’d be amazed what a cat will eat after looking at an empty dish for about four days.

Yeah. Stuff like: the plants, the furniture . . .

Response:

You find a flavour or two that the cat likes, so you buy a lot of it while it’s on sale.  The cat will then eat one more can of each flavour and refuse the rest. – Dan.   (returning four cases to PetSmart this afternoon) You’d be amazed what a cat will eat after looking at an empty dish for about four days.

I could never torture my sweeties like that. The one that eats the canned is very very old and has no teeth.  Would you starve an old lady just to save yourself a trip to the grocery store? – Dan. — – South Jersey, USA, Earth  <http://cronus.spaceports.com/~darmok

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You find a flavour or two that the cat likes, so you buy a lot of it while it’s on sale.  The cat will then eat one more can of each flavour and refuse the rest. – Dan.   (returning four cases to PetSmart this afternoon) You’d be amazed what a cat will eat after looking at an empty dish for about four days. I could never torture my sweeties like that. The one that eats the canned is very very old and has no teeth.  Would you starve an old lady just to save yourself a trip to the grocery store? – Dan. — – South Jersey, USA, Earth  <http://cronus.spaceports.com/~darmok

There is an alternate possibility, I know will work on dogs, as I’ve tried it, although I haven’t tried it on cats.  We used to have a dog that had a heart condition, and he had to have a special bland food that he didn’t like the taste of.  You put a little bit of garlic powder on it, and he’d eat it without a problem. Richard Ward

Response:

There is an alternate possibility, I know will work on dogs, as I’ve tried it, although I haven’t tried it on cats.  We used to have a dog that had a heart condition, and he had to have a special bland food that he didn’t like the taste of.  You put a little bit of garlic powder on it, and he’d eat it without a problem.

ooooh.  Garlic smelling cat farts.    *shudder* – Dan. — – South Jersey, USA, Earth  <http://cronus.spaceports.com/~darmok

Response:

There is an alternate possibility, I know will work on dogs, as I’ve tried it, although I haven’t tried it on cats.  We used to have a dog that had a heart condition, and he had to have a special bland food that he didn’t like the taste of.  You put a little bit of garlic powder on it, and he’d eat it without a problem. ooooh.  Garlic smelling cat farts.    *shudder* – Dan.

Better than the liver ones.   Much better. I find I can feed my cats anything if I mix in some corn, ice cream, roquefort dressing, or butter. Kris

Response:

My followup to  this message from "Kris Baker" bottom-posting, except when I forget: I find I can feed my cats anything if I mix in some corn, ice cream, roquefort dressing, or butter. Kris

You must have purebred cats or something.  We have two cats right now, and their whole lives they’ve eaten nothing but whatever dry cat food is on sale, usually 18-25 pounds for $8.00.  Once a week we give them meat trimmings or whatever human food we have that’s unfit for human consumption. I always thought that cats had to be taught to be finicky eaters. This mixing ice cream or dressing, or whatever to get them to eat seems weird.  We put the food out fresh whenever they ask for it, usually four times a day (and they’ve learned how to let us know when they are hungry) and they eat it. My guess is that canned food, Iams, or whatnot is for the owners to feel better.  Our cats don’t seem to notice.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My followup to  this message from "Kris Baker" bottom-posting, except when I forget: I find I can feed my cats anything if I mix in some corn, ice cream, roquefort dressing, or butter. Kris You must have purebred cats or something.  We have two cats right now, and their whole lives they’ve eaten nothing but whatever dry cat food is on sale, usually 18-25 pounds for $8.00.  Once a week we give them meat trimmings or whatever human food we have that’s unfit for human consumption. I always thought that cats had to be taught to be finicky eaters. This mixing ice cream or dressing, or whatever to get them to eat seems weird.  We put the food out fresh whenever they ask for it, usually four times a day (and they’ve learned how to let us know when they are hungry) and they eat it. My guess is that canned food, Iams, or whatnot is for the owners to feel better.  Our cats don’t seem to notice.

We also have two cats, mutts who wouldn’t be alive if we hadn’t found them when dastardly owners abandoned them on the nearby highway.  One of them (eyes barely opened) was trying to nurse from her dead mother. One is almost 12, and has a tender disgestive system, and has to have special cat food (which does work, when she’d urp up regular dry food).   She doesn’t have problems with people food, oddly – just some dry stuff. So…..both cats eat the special food, our food  …. and mice they bring home from the mountainside to share with us.   Then they sleep on our bed.  We’re suckers. Kris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You find a flavour or two that the cat likes, so you buy a lot of it while it’s on sale.  The cat will then eat one more can of each flavour and refuse the rest. – Dan.   (returning four cases to PetSmart this afternoon) You’d be amazed what a cat will eat after looking at an empty dish for about four days. I could never torture my sweeties like that. The one that eats the canned is very very old and has no teeth.  Would you starve an old lady just to save yourself a trip to the grocery store? – Dan. —

I have two inside cats and one is also a toothless old-timer.  She does manage to "gum" or swallow the dry food, but does like some of the soft stuff.  I also tried her on the small jars of baby food – Gerber 2 Chicken & Chicken Gravy.  She’s about 15 years old now.  I’ve always wondered if pets have "senior moments?"  She sometimes seems to hesitate with that "Where was I going?" look on her face.  ;o) Best, Arlene

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You find a flavour or two that the cat likes, so you buy a lot of it while it’s on sale.  The cat will then eat one more can of each flavour and refuse the rest. – Dan.   (returning four cases to PetSmart this afternoon) You’d be amazed what a cat will eat after looking at an empty dish for about four days. I could never torture my sweeties like that. The one that eats the canned is very very old and has no teeth.  Would you starve an old lady just to save yourself a trip to the grocery store? – Dan. — I have two inside cats and one is also a toothless old-timer.  She does manage to "gum" or swallow the dry food, but does like some of the soft stuff.  I also tried her on the small jars of baby food – Gerber 2 Chicken & Chicken Gravy.  She’s about 15 years old now.  I’ve always wondered if pets have "senior moments?"  She sometimes seems to hesitate with that "Where was I going?" look on her face.  ;o) Best, Arlene

How do you all get these toothless cats?   Didn’t you know you could get their teeth cleaned every year, at $150 per cat?   It’s a good thing *I* have healthy teeth. "I paid that much on your teeth, and you just brought a snake in the house?" Kris Who SHOULD have toothless cats!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You find a flavour or two that the cat likes, so you buy a lot of it while it’s on sale.  The cat will then eat one more can of each flavour and refuse the rest. – Dan.   (returning four cases to PetSmart this afternoon) You’d be amazed what a cat will eat after looking at an empty dish for about four days. -Fred (people smarter than pet this afternoon)

Very possibly the cat would be looking at a veterinarian.  Cats that don’t eat for a few days (especially overweight cats) are prone to getting hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver disease) if they go without eating food for a few days.  And that can be an expensive, and not always successful disease to try to remedy.  I have seen this happen to cats that decided they didn’t like their new food so didn’t eat it or didn’t eat nearly enough of it, then wouldn’t eat their old food (because now they were sick with a liver problem) when the owners gave in after a few days, then started turning yellow (jaundiced).  A dog can go a few days without eating and not come to great harm if its a healthy dog to start with.  But the same thing is like playing with fire in the cat world. DMW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My followup to  this message from "Kris Baker" bottom-posting, except when I forget: I find I can feed my cats anything if I mix in some corn, ice cream, roquefort dressing, or butter. Kris You must have purebred cats or something.  We have two cats right now, and their whole lives they’ve eaten nothing but whatever dry cat food is on sale, usually 18-25 pounds for $8.00.  Once a week we give them meat trimmings or whatever human food we have that’s unfit for human consumption. I always thought that cats had to be taught to be finicky eaters. This mixing ice cream or dressing, or whatever to get them to eat seems weird.  We put the food out fresh whenever they ask for it, usually four times a day (and they’ve learned how to let us know when they are hungry) and they eat it. My guess is that canned food, Iams, or whatnot is for the owners to feel better.  Our cats don’t seem to notice. We also have two cats, mutts who wouldn’t be alive if we hadn’t found them when dastardly owners abandoned them on the nearby highway.  One of them (eyes barely opened) was trying to nurse from her dead mother. One is almost 12, and has a tender disgestive system, and has to have special cat food (which does work, when she’d urp up regular dry food).   She doesn’t have problems with people food, oddly – just some dry stuff. So…..both cats eat the special food, our food  …. and mice they bring home from the mountainside to share with us.   Then they sleep on our bed.  We’re suckers.

Dry cat food is a lot higher in carbohydrates than canned food, which is higher in protein (it has to be to hold the kibble together).  Some cats’ systems just can’t handle the higher carbohydrate composition of kibble. And for others it’s an allergy to some ingredient, and in others it could be the texture or gobbling it down too fast.  A cat’s digestive system is set up for protein digestion anyways, so canned catfood is a more suitable food for a cat than dry kibble.  As for mice, well, you’re not going to get closer to a cat’s natural diet than that!  (I wonder if there could be a market for "Canned Whole Mouse" cat food  ) DMW

Response:

I could never torture my sweeties like that. The one that eats the canned is very very old and has no teeth.  Would you starve an old lady just to save yourself a trip to the grocery store?

Canned cat food is a good way to ruin cats’ teeth.  Mine will eat most anything, loves chicken bones (crunch), and except for having one bad tooth in 9 years, has excellent teeth and gums, because they get exercised. But hey, as long as your cat has you trained that well….  :^) — I’m a freshman in my 4th year at UCLA and my ambition is to become a veteranarian because I love children……

Response:

I could never torture my sweeties like that. The one that eats the canned is very very old and has no teeth.  Would you starve an old lady just to save yourself a trip to the grocery store? Canned cat food is a good way to ruin cats’ teeth.  

Dan was pretty clear that that wouldn’t be a problem in this case . Deborah Stevenson

Response:

I find I can feed my cats anything if I mix in some corn, ice cream, roquefort dressing, or butter.

Turn the hairballs loose on a ear of corn on the cob.  Most of them love it, and they’re fun to watch.  I had one who would get it against a wall, eat a row, then move it like a typewritter carriage to expose the next row. That same cat wouldn’t get on the table for a juicy steak, but would cheerfully sit on top of a hot stove and eat the tops off an entire tray of freshly baked cornbread muffins. — I’m a freshman in my 4th year at UCLA and my ambition is to become a veteranarian because I love children……

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You find a flavour or two that the cat likes, so you buy a lot of it while it’s on sale.  The cat will then eat one more can of each flavour and refuse the rest. – Dan.   (returning four cases to PetSmart this afternoon) You’d be amazed what a cat will eat after looking at an empty dish for about four days. I could never torture my sweeties like that. The one that eats the canned is very very old and has no teeth.   Would you starve an old lady just to save yourself a trip to the grocery store? I have two inside cats and one is also a toothless old-timer.  She does manage to "gum" or swallow the dry food, but does like some of the soft stuff.  I also tried her on the small jars of baby food – Gerber 2 Chicken & Chicken Gravy.  

We think Misty is 16 to 18.  Not 100% sure; she was badly abused by her previous owner, and obtained as an "additional bonus" when my housemates were buying another cat. She also tries to gum the hard stuff (Iams), but it doesn’t stay down.   And she was loosing so much weight…  The vet checked her out and pronounced her basically healthy.  He had us put her on Prozac (long story).  That turned her from being the troll-under-the-bed into a real cat!  Amazing brain candy!  Now she comes out and nags us when she’s hungry, and her weight has stabelized.  I even get to pet her now and then. She’s about 15 years old now.  I’ve always wondered if pets have "senior moments?"  She sometimes seems to hesitate with that "Where was I going?" look on her face.  ;o)

And there’s that "I ment to do that" look.  Especially noticable when the cat is climbing out of the waste basket, after falling from the dresser, or when they’ve smashed into the radiator after running the length of the house and sliding on a throw rug. We moved the throw rug.  Now they run a different pattern, and slide on the throw rug. – Dan. — – South Jersey, USA, Earth  <http://cronus.spaceports.com/~darmok

Response:

Question:

Hi Gary, Has anyone ever walked up to you and hit you in the face with a brick for no reason? As a matter of fact, YES they have! <snip

Wow.  I apologise if what I said brought back unhappy memories, but I rest on what I said before: your first post was a mugging.  That is what you just did to Michael. I apologized to Michael after he clarified his original statement.

Your apology to Michael hadn’t hit my server by the time I posted. Your post here was uncalled for and totally out of line. Based on the content of the original post, was it really?

Absolutely!  Read his original post again.  He was asking how he should report unearned revenue to his banker.  Six other posters before you found nothing nefarious about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen much worse in this newsgroup over lesser issues! Gary

Response:

The fact that you don’t give refunds for any reason does provide you with some justification to recognize the revenue on a cash basis (i.e. when you receive it) on the memberships where you receive the $1000 in advance.  The bank would probably feel much better about agreeing with this position if you had this stipulation agreed to in writing with your customers. How about the SEC?  Have you read the SAB & FAQ’s on revenue recognition?

SAB 101, I believe.  I thought about this after I wrote this point.  Although a private marshall arts studio isn’t really under the auspices of the SEC. Even the SEC provides certain procedures that allows clients to recognize revenue in bill and hold situations where one could argue that the revenue production event really hasn’t occurred.   The quandry in this case is (a) does he follow the matching principle and recognize a liability that he is truly under no obligation to repay, (b) does he not recognize this liability and front load his revenue. If it was me, I would probably take the more conservative approach and point out to the bank that I had all of this deferred revenue that I had "really" earned.  But I think you can justify treating it the other way also.     If I get a chance, I will gander at SAB 101 today to see what it says about this issue. Chris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I run a martial arts school.  Like a fitness clubs or schools, we sell membership programs.  We usually sell either monthly memberships, where the member pays monthly or we often sell 12 month programs, where the member pays for the entire 12 months in advanced.  Lets say this 12 month program costs $1000. One of my students, who is a MBA and has taken accounting courses, says that I cannot account for the entire $1000 from the 12-month program in the month that the revenue was received on my income statements.  He says I need to spread the $1000 over the 12 months of the membership to account for earned revenue.  The other factor is we do not give any refunds for any reason.  Those reasons may include injury, relocation or even if the school goes out of business. I’m preparing my financial statements right now for a loan and would like to get this figured out, so I can do it properly.  Also, it’s making our revenues look much smaller since as much as 50% of our customers pay for their memberships in advanced. Thanks for your help. The fact that you don’t give refunds for any reason does provide you with some justification to recognize the revenue on a cash basis (i.e. when you receive it) on the memberships where you receive the $1000 in advance.  The bank would probably feel much better about agreeing with this position if you had this stipulation agreed to in writing with your customers.

How about the SEC?  Have you read the SAB & FAQ’s on revenue recognition? If you are receiving the money in monthly allotments, you would have a hard time convincing an objective person that the  revenue should be recognized for the whole year ahead of time. Chris

– sarah clark My experience as a member of the APB (Accounting Principles Board) taught me many lessons.  A major one was that most of us have a natural tendency and an incredible talent for processing new facts in such a way that our prior conclusions remain intact   — Charles Horngren

Response:

Hi Michael I wouldn’t go around bragging about ripping people off! There are many people that have been conned into such memberships and for perfectly valid reasons they have had to move.  Like a job relocation or they got married to someone not living near them. Quite often the person selling the contract will tell them that if they move more than 25 miles away, they can cancel their membership. Yet when the time comes and they move 1000 miles away, the fine print says they are still libel if there is a membership group near them. A lady from an all womens fitness group is forced to pay because an all mens club is within a 25 mile range of their new home. And assholes like you will sue them for failing to pay their contract. So they are stuck paying for a totally useless membership to protect their credit rating. Why don’t you go get a contract with someone that can help you and get suckered into your own scam? Gary

Response:

You misunderstood. Only the programs that are paid in advanced are non-refundable. We simply put a line in the agreement that says all moneys PAID are non-refundable.  That includes downpayments and advanced payments. It is necessary for us to do this, because unlike a corporate health club that you’re referring to, we don’t have lots of cash where we can issue refunds.  Most of the time we barely cover costs.  However, most of our members pay monthly and those contracts are cancellable if they move or are injured. Even if they move to a new location and there’s another martial art school like ours, it’s fine, they can still cancel as long as they move at least 15 miles from our school.  Actually, we rarely hold our members to even those terms.  We usually cancel the memberships even if the member cannot make it to classes like if there work or school schedule changes.  We’re not ripping people off.  We have personal relationships with each of our students and don’t scam people like that. We’re a martial art school and our members are like family.  We’re not some corporate health club that tries to trick people into contracts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Michael I wouldn’t go around bragging about ripping people off! There are many people that have been conned into such memberships and for perfectly valid reasons they have had to move.  Like a job relocation or they got married to someone not living near them. Quite often the person selling the contract will tell them that if they move more than 25 miles away, they can cancel their membership. Yet when the time comes and they move 1000 miles away, the fine print says they are still libel if there is a membership group near them. A lady from an all womens fitness group is forced to pay because an all mens club is within a 25 mile range of their new home. And assholes like you will sue them for failing to pay their contract. So they are stuck paying for a totally useless membership to protect their credit rating. Why don’t you go get a contract with someone that can help you and get suckered into your own scam? Gary

Response:

I read the provisions of SAB 101 today.  As you can imagine, it’s kind of slow around our office. Anyway, the bulletin pretty explicitly states that the revenue in these instances should be deferred even when the fee is non-refundable, unless that is the conclusion of a separate revenue recognition event, which it clearly wasn’t in this regard.   As SAB’s are an interpretation of GAAP from the SEC perspective, it is more justification to defer the revenue even in the instances where the money is received up front. Chris

Response:

Hi Michael <mugging snipped

Hi Gary, Has anyone ever walked up to you and hit you in the face with a brick for no reason?  That is what you just did to Michael. Your post here was uncalled for and totally out of line. Jeremy Garofalo New Orleans, LA

Response:

Hi Michael <mugging snipped Hi Gary, Has anyone ever walked up to you and hit you in the face with a brick for no reason?  That is what you just did to Michael.

you assume that the aforementioned person did not do such a thing to the psoter. stranger things have happened. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your post here was uncalled for and totally out of line. Jeremy Garofalo New Orleans, LA

Response:

Hi Michael <mugging snipped Your post here was uncalled for and totally out of line.

yes, i would agree no matter what the circumstances. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeremy Garofalo New Orleans, LA

Response:

Ok, Fair Enough Michael I saw the line in your post that said we offer no refunds for any reason, and you use membership contracts, thus the reason for my comments. I will formally apologize for my snide and nasty remarks to you! Looks like they were quite unwarranted. TTUL Gary

Response:

Hi Gary, Has anyone ever walked up to you and hit you in the face with a brick for no reason?

As a matter of fact, YES they have! Then seeing I was down, they took my wallet, my watch, my wedding ring and one of my keyrings, thankfully, not the ring that had my car keys on it, but a keyring full of doorkeys to an office building, that had to change all of their locks. Not one of the ‘friendly’ neighbors that stood and watched called the police or an ambulance for me, neither did they give a description to the police of who did it later. I drove myself to the hospital and asked at the nurses station for someone to park my vehicle somewhere and gave them the keys to my car. When I was released 3 days later, I found that my vehicle was not moved as promised, but instead towed away after hospital security called a towing company the day I arrived.  That is what you just did to Michael.

I apologized to Michael after he clarified his original statement. Your post here was uncalled for and totally out of line.

Based on the content of the original post, was it really? I’ve seen much worse in this newsgroup over lesser issues! Gary

Response:

Revenue recognition of a contractual agreement depends on the terms of the contract not on when the funds are received.  If the payment is for 12 periods but paid in advance there is a strong argument to pro-rate revenue per period refund or no refund. If the payment is for one 12 month period to be paid at the beginning of that period there is a strong argument to recognize the revenue at the beginning of that period. If the revenue needs to pro-rated it is usually booked to a liability account named appropriately to recognize prepaid revenue. For cash-flow planning and income – expense matching there are good reasons to pro-rate the income over the periods. If a pro-rated income matched to expenses is not adequate … Do you charge enough?  The lending institution will want a cash flow statement (so should you) and it will make little difference if your income statement (now) looks great but your future earnings are insufficient to cover operations.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I run a martial arts school.  Like a fitness clubs or schools, we sell membership programs.  We usually sell either monthly memberships, where the member pays monthly or we often sell 12 month programs, where the member pays for the entire 12 months in advanced.  Lets say this 12 month program costs $1000. One of my students, who is a MBA and has taken accounting courses, says that I cannot account for the entire $1000 from the 12-month program in the month that the revenue was received on my income statements.  He says I need to spread the $1000 over the 12 months of the membership to account for earned revenue.  The other factor is we do not give any refunds for any reason.  Those reasons may include injury, relocation or even if the school goes out of business. I’m preparing my financial statements right now for a loan and would like to get this figured out, so I can do it properly.  Also, it’s making our revenues look much smaller since as much as 50% of our customers pay for their memberships in advanced. Thanks for your help. Michael

Response:

I run a martial arts school.  Like a fitness clubs or schools, we sell membership programs.  We usually sell either monthly memberships, where the member pays monthly or we often sell 12 month programs, where the member pays for the entire 12 months in advanced.  Lets say this 12 month program costs $1000. One of my students, who is a MBA and has taken accounting courses, says that I cannot account for the entire $1000 from the 12-month program in the month that the revenue was received on my income statements.  He says I need to spread the $1000 over the 12 months of the membership to account for earned revenue.  The other factor is we do not give any refunds for any reason.  Those reasons may include injury, relocation or even if the school goes out of business. I’m preparing my financial statements right now for a loan and would like to get this figured out, so I can do it properly.  Also, it’s making our revenues look much smaller since as much as 50% of our customers pay for their memberships in advanced. Thanks for your help. Michael

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I run a martial arts school.  Like a fitness clubs or schools, we sell membership programs.  We usually sell either monthly memberships, where the member pays monthly or we often sell 12 month programs, where the member pays for the entire 12 months in advanced.  Lets say this 12 month program costs $1000. One of my students, who is a MBA and has taken accounting courses, says that I cannot account for the entire $1000 from the 12-month program in the month that the revenue was received on my income statements.  He says I need to spread the $1000 over the 12 months of the membership to account for earned revenue.  The other factor is we do not give any refunds for any reason.  Those reasons may include injury, relocation or even if the school goes out of business. I’m preparing my financial statements right now for a loan and would like to get this figured out, so I can do it properly.  Also, it’s making our revenues look much smaller since as much as 50% of our customers pay for their memberships in advanced. Thanks for your help. Michael

I’m with the MBA, however I’m sure you could shop around and find a different opinion. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I run a martial arts school.  Like a fitness clubs or schools, we sell membership programs.  We usually sell either monthly memberships, where the member pays monthly or we often sell 12 month programs, where the member pays for the entire 12 months in advanced.  Lets say this 12 month program costs $1000. One of my students, who is a MBA and has taken accounting courses, says that I cannot account for the entire $1000 from the 12-month program in the month that the revenue was received on my income statements.  He says I need to spread the $1000 over the 12 months of the membership to account for earned revenue.  The other factor is we do not give any refunds for any reason.  Those reasons may include injury, relocation or even if the school goes out of business. I’m preparing my financial statements right now for a loan and would like to get this figured out, so I can do it properly.  Also, it’s making our revenues look much smaller since as much as 50% of our customers pay for their memberships in advanced. Thanks for your help.

The fact that you don’t give refunds for any reason does provide you with some justification to recognize the revenue on a cash basis (i.e. when you receive it) on the memberships where you receive the $1000 in advance.  The bank would probably feel much better about agreeing with this position if you had this stipulation agreed to in writing with your customers. If you are receiving the money in monthly allotments, you would have a hard time convincing an objective person that the  revenue should be recognized for the whole year ahead of time. Chris

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I run a martial arts school.  Like a fitness clubs or schools, we sell membership programs.  We usually sell either monthly memberships, where the member pays monthly or we often sell 12 month programs, where the member pays for the entire 12 months in advanced.  Lets say this 12 month program costs $1000. One of my students, who is a MBA and has taken accounting courses, says that I cannot account for the entire $1000 from the 12-month program in the month that the revenue was received on my income statements.  He says I need to spread the $1000 over the 12 months of the membership to account for earned revenue.  The other factor is we do not give any refunds for any reason.  Those reasons may include injury, relocation or even if the school goes out of business. I’m preparing my financial statements right now for a loan and would like to get this figured out, so I can do it properly.  Also, it’s making our revenues look much smaller since as much as 50% of our customers pay for their memberships in advanced. Thanks for your help. Michael I’m with the MBA, however I’m sure you could shop around and find a different opinion. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA http://survivalworks.comwant.

The folks at Andersen will provie you with any answer you want.  However, the GAAP answer is: take the $1,000 over the 12 months, recognizing 1/12th of it each month as earned.  The remainder is deferred.  Your MBA friend is correct. — Michael E. Blount, CPA Managing Director Blount & Company, LLP 888.984.1040

Response:

The folks at Andersen will provie you with any answer you want. However, the GAAP answer is: take the $1,000 over the 12 months, recognizing 1/12th of it each month as earned.  The remainder is deferred.  Your MBA friend is correct.

Maybe not.  Our resident AA guy opines as follows: The fact that you don’t give refunds for any reason does provide you with some justification to recognize the revenue on a cash basis (i.e. when you receive it) on the memberships where you receive the $1000 in advance.  The bank would probably feel much better about agreeing with this position if you had this stipulation agreed to in writing with your customers. If you are receiving the money in monthly allotments, you would have a hard time convincing an objective person that the  revenue should be recognized for the whole year ahead of time. Chris That is an answer I could live with. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I run a martial arts school.  Like a fitness clubs or schools, we sell membership programs.  We usually sell either monthly memberships, where the member pays monthly or we often sell 12 month programs, where the member pays for the entire 12 months in advanced.  Lets say this 12 month program costs $1000. One of my students, who is a MBA and has taken accounting courses, says that I cannot account for the entire $1000 from the 12-month program in the month that the revenue was received on my income statements.  He says I need to spread the $1000 over the 12 months of the membership to account for earned revenue.  The other factor is we do not give any refunds for any reason.  Those reasons may include injury, relocation or even if the school goes out of business. I’m preparing my financial statements right now for a loan and would like to get this figured out, so I can do it properly.  Also, it’s making our revenues look much smaller since as much as 50% of our customers pay for their memberships in advanced. Thanks for your help. The fact that you don’t give refunds for any reason does provide you with some justification to recognize the revenue on a cash basis (i.e. when you receive it) on the memberships where you receive the $1000 in advance.  The bank would probably feel much better about agreeing with this position if you had this stipulation agreed to in writing with your customers. If you are receiving the money in monthly allotments, you would have a hard time convincing an objective person that the  revenue should be recognized for the whole year ahead of time.

I think there is some case law on this from the tax side, and HOW you prepare your financials (OCBOA -v- GAAP) will impact how and when you report the income.  I believe the tax basis will let you recognize the income when received.  Either way though, as a banker, I’d feel more comfortable knowing that you had business "in the can" and paid for above having people signed on paying monthly if those monthly people can cancel without any additional payment. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia http://www.pat-cpa.com

Response:

Question:

Save! New retail software Just about Free! See below. You can now download as much of the best new retail software as you want for about the same cost as a night at the movies! Your dream has become true! Download Full versions of Quicken Deluxe, Paint Shop, Carrara, Poser 4, Bryce 4, Corel Draw 10, Lightwave 6.0, Photoshop 6.0, Paint Shop, Norton System Works 2001, Delta Force, Quake III Arena and just about any App and Game you could possibly want for one low fixed price to download as much as you want! Go Here. http://unbelievablegreatdeals.com/outofblue2.htm After a long hard day on the job do you really want to spend all of your free time searching for the best Warez Sites? We give detailed instructions that none of the Warez Sites give you. We wrote the book on "Warez For Dummies" Without our detailed Warez download and installation instructions it could take you days or even weeks of frustrating trial and error trying to figure out how to get the Warez software to work. If you are a Computer Nerd or have no social life and love the challenge of trying to find the latest warez software Site free of Porn go ahead and spend 80 or more hours finding your software. Even then you might not find all the software and cracks you want. For just the cost of a night out at the movies you can save all of this hassle and wasted time. Our service cost $24.95 and comes with a full money back guarantee. Even if we didn’t offer the money back guarantee if you did not like our service you could simply dispute it with your credit card company. But we know that once your join our service you will love what we provide you. There simply is know easier way to find all of the good Warez Sites. Wouldn’t you rather spend your free time doing something more enjoyable like playing your favorite game or software App that you can quickly download from our Site? Or would you prefer to spent countless frustrating hours searching for and trying to figure out how to install Warez Software? The choice is yours. We believe you will agree that our service is the best solution for all your software needs. Try it out risk free today. Click below to Sign up today. http://unbelievablegreatdeals.com/outofblue2.htm We have all the accounting software you are looking for plus so much more.

Response:

The sender of this SPAM is Art Schwartz. For information on Art’s ‘business’ go to http://artie2001.exit.mytoday.de Help to put an end to Art’s SPAM by sending complaints to:         and     wcom.net Make sure that you enclose both the headers and the message. .

Response:

Question:

Well, I’m just trying to learn to shut up, because it seems like the less I say, the more gets done.  I could be wrong, and really as much as

So far, that strategy is working (well, the last few exchanges have had a strong element of impasse to them). But the time will (hopefully) come when, at the very least, your assent to the negotiated terms will be required. I’d like to think that I’ve got a chance at this and dream about that million dollars, but I’ve yet to see any evidence that Randi is making a legitimate offer, and I seriously doubt that there’ll ever be a real test of his Challenge by me or anyone else. It’s a rigged game.  He had a chance months ago to schedule a test and work out a "protocol". And

Because so much is at stake, I’m willing, pragmatically, to give him the benefit of the doubt on his "traversal," especially now that he’s returned to the bargaining table. who ever heard of a unilateral offer like this one where the applicant has to hire professional judges? WHat should that tell you? We’re like

That’s not exactly true.  It wasn’t Randi’s idea to hire independent judges.  Of course, alternatively he still has to demonstrate that he can come up with free (to you at least) third party personnel that you and he both can trust. bartenders with this man, we’re enabling him to go on with his addiction to denunciation by providing him with fodder. He’s separated himself from the rest of us. I am suddenly struck with the notion that what he needs is a lot of compassion. He may be suffering terribly. I have to work up the strength to love this man . . .unconditionally. I should not expect anything more from him . . .

I’m sure a big salty tear would be rolling down Randi’s cheek right now were he reading this Syd            http://www.escape.ca/~sgb                      Dealing with Depression Naturally                               and other books by Syd Baumel.                                      …and cool record reviews! Okay, let’s look at this realistically. We need 90 days out from today to schedule an event of the type we’re talking about, so even if Randi does cave in and give us a schedule, a reasonable trial of our claim isn’t going to happen for another three months, and that puts us into November.       But until we get a time and a place, this is just all hot air we’re blowing at each other. And secondly, if anyone is going to take his offer seriously, they have to see it in writing with his signature on it.       The Psychic Challenge is not and never has been a legitimate offer from all that I can see of it. It’s an unusual tpe of contract and most attorneys don’t ever see them. Only when he can provide a sginature is it ever going to get any serious attention.  Meanwhile, we can just take potshots at each other. What suprises me is that no one has debunked the debunker. Have we yet to find one legitimate trial of anyone? Yes, I know what Randi says, but that’s all we have, is what Randi says.        The hot button on this case is named Robert Park from Randi.      Try it and see what I mean. Go after the APS for their involvement in this and Randi will be all asses and elbows again. Take the test to them and see what happens. jb My initial impression of this is that JREF is making this so difficult that no protocol will ever be agreed upon, and no one will ever be tested.  What do you guys think?

You’re wrong.  Plenty of people get tested. I want to go on record with this response.  The numbered sections are from Benneth, my comments follow each one. 1. The applicant chooses the source from which the potentized  solutions are created. Source?  Does this mean the tap from which the water is drawn?  Clarify. It sounds like you are saying that you decide what remedy to use right? That’s essential.

Wrong.  It is simply a request for clarification.  Nothing more. 2. The placeboes [sic] are made of the same diluting substance used  to prepare the potencies so that all samples are chemically identical and diluted beyond Avogadro of the mother tincture. "Diluting substance"?  Does this mean water?  SAY what it is. Obviously, it is water and alcohol.

Kim, there’s a million at stake here.  Benneth has shown himself to be a master of doublespeak and obfuscation.  Have you heard of Riley G.’s intention to sue Randi over some nitpicking detail?  Randi’s request is entirely reasonable. Again, you haven’t seen enough Benneth types do their thing yet. 3. Hahnemann Labs of Albany, California (1 888 4 ARNICA) prepares  the 50 samples to be tested, 25 placebos and 25 homeopathically potentized, and their containers are labeled accordingly. Not admissable.  That lab has a very heavy interest in seeing proof of homeopathy.  I would insist that the materials be independently prepared, that portions of both the "potentized" and "non-potentized" material then be submitted to Benneth for his approval, and the test carried out only after his approval is obtained. Okay, big, big problem here. Here JREF has an opportunity to cheat, JB just has to trust them. Unacceptable. Who’s to say that once the potentized material is agreed upon, plain water is sent to JB to perform the actual challenge.  He would have no guarantee of getting a real remedy.

Wrong.  Randi is saying that simply having a lab with a huge stake in the outcome prepare the sample is madness.  It is madness.  And note that Benneth gets to approve the samples beforehand. Also, it is not so easy to make quality remedies. There is no way to do this without remedies manufactured by a good manufacturer. Personally, I would only trust Hahnemann Labs. Specialized equipment is required, especially if you’re talking about high potencies.

That hasn’t been claimed anywhere else that I’m aware of.  That’s not what Hahnemann’s book says.  This isn’t a deal killer.  I don’t believe that the samples will be hard to come by in a manner satisfactory to both parties. Why can’t remedies just be purchased by an independent person under a pseudonym that is unknown to the applicant? That way you would just get the same excellent product that they sell to everyone.

Too many people.  Too easy to cheat.  Again, a million is at stake.  And, don’t forget, cheating is a fair way to win it.  Yes, that’s right.  Randi thinks he can outwit cheaters.  But if he can’t, he still loses.  Fair and square.  Not everybody thinks like you guys. 3 — continued: Two copies are made of each  sample, potentized and non, creating a total of 50 sample sets of three identical  items each, making for a total of 150 items.  After coding is completed, this makes one set of fifty samples for analysis by the claimant, one set of fifty identical samples kept by the referee in the event of a dispute and one set of fifty identical samples for JREF analysis. Overdone, but okay.  But no provision is made here about the "referee." Who or what would that be? The "referee" is a big problem. There’s no way to get someone that will be trusted by both parties.

Wrong.  A major accounting firm would be acceptable.  Like the guys who do the Oscar vote tallying. 5. The coding of the samples is overseen by an independent accounting firm mutually agreed upon by the applicant and JREF. No.  I have no reason to trust an "accounting firm."  We can decide upon a better authority.  Unless, that is, Benneth is prepared to pay a firm like Price, Waterhouse.  In any case, only one person would be involved. Again, there is no way to find an independent person to code the samples that will be mutually agreeable.

Wrong.  Randi clearly states that this can be overcome.  But trusting Hahnemann & Fleiss, Chartered Accountants is a silly idea.  That’s what Randi is saying. Again, think "cheating". 7. Coding is done by several teams of two people each to insure that there are no mistakes or cheating. Again, no.   Videotaping can insure against errors. Huh? He just said no videotaping.

Where? 10. The numerical and alphabetical indexes shall be kept in separate locations mutually agreed on by the applicant and JREF. No.  The single coding will be retained by one trusted person.  There are simple ways to ensure the security.  Making the coding into a complex procedure is not the best way. Agreed, but who can do it?

A major chartered accounting or law firm.   not an acceptable level for the million-dollar prize, but okay for the preliminary test, which is what we’re discussing here. What percent does he want for a formal test? Do we have any idea?

Let Benneth suggest what he can achieve.  It would have to be way less than 1/1000 though.  Prolly 1/100,000 would do. Benneth is fond of redefining the JREF test in his own terms.  He’s welcome to his fantasies, but they do not relate to reality, which is where we’re located.  The procedure above sounds to me to be expensive, but Benneth must be aware of this, and must be prepared to finance the operation.

Exactly. … read more »

Response:

I’m starting off the "digression" thread with a side thread initiated by Kim Birney that doesn’t entirely deserve to be excluded from the main thread, except that it wasn’t part of the direct negotiation thread and it quickly became mostly "digressive" and… It’s getting late.  I hope Kim and Happy Dog, not to mention JB himself, will now post to the main negotiation thread whenever they see fit. Syd Hi John, Syd, HD, My initial impression of this is that JREF is making this so difficult that no protocol will ever be agreed upon, and no one will ever be tested.  What do you guys think? This is my assessment of the Benneth protocol suggestions, which are contained in http://www.marius.net/protocol.html I want to go on record with this response.  The numbered sections are from Benneth, my comments follow each one. 1. The applicant chooses the source from which the potentized  solutions are created. Source?  Does this mean the tap from which the water is drawn?  Clarify.

It sounds like you are saying that you decide what remedy to use right? That’s essential. 2. The placeboes [sic] are made of the same diluting substance used  to prepare the potencies so that all samples are chemically identical and diluted beyond Avogadro of the mother tincture. "Diluting substance"?  Does this mean water?  SAY what it is.

Obviously, it is water and alcohol. 3. Hahnemann Labs of Albany, California (1 888 4 ARNICA) prepares  the 50 samples to be tested, 25 placebos and 25 homeopathically potentized, and their containers are labeled accordingly. Not admissable.  That lab has a very heavy interest in seeing proof of homeopathy.  I would insist that the materials be independently prepared, that portions of both the "potentized" and "non-potentized" material then be submitted to Benneth for his approval, and the test carried out only after his approval is obtained.

Okay, big, big problem here. Here JREF has an opportunity to cheat, JB just has to trust them. Unacceptable. Who’s to say that once the potentized material is agreed upon, plain water is sent to JB to perform the actual challenge.  He would have no guarantee of getting a real remedy. Also, it is not so easy to make quality remedies. There is no way to do this without remedies manufactured by a good manufacturer. Personally, I would only trust Hahnemann Labs. Specialized equipment is required, especially if you’re talking about high potencies. Why can’t remedies just be purchased by an independent person under a pseudonym that is unknown to the applicant? That way you would just get the same excellent product that they sell to everyone. 3 — continued: Two copies are made of each  sample, potentized and non, creating a total of 50 sample sets of three identical  items each, making for a total of 150 items.  After coding is completed, this makes one set of fifty samples for analysis by the claimant, one set of fifty identical samples kept by the referee in the event of a dispute and one set of fifty identical samples for JREF analysis. Overdone, but okay.  But no provision is made here about the "referee." Who or what would that be?

The "referee" is a big problem. There’s no way to get someone that will be trusted by both parties. 4. JREF observes the potentization procedure and preparation of the placeboes at a time of mutual convenience to JREF and the applicant. The procedure is videotaped. Not necessary.  Besides, it provides a loophole for arguing that in some way, JREF interfered with the procedure.  Not admissable.

I agree with Randi on this point. 5. The coding of the samples is overseen by an independent accounting firm mutually agreed upon by the applicant and JREF. No.  I have no reason to trust an "accounting firm."  We can decide upon a better authority.  Unless, that is, Benneth is prepared to pay a firm like Price, Waterhouse.  In any case, only one person would be involved.

Again, there is no way to find an independent person to code the samples that will be mutually agreeable. 6. The coding will be done by multiple teams so as the test is administered by a panel [sic] lay people who have been randomly chosen by the accountants. This is the best insurance that the test will be impartially and fairly administered. Nonsense.  One person, and no more.  The possibilities for breach of security are far too great with any more than one person.

Agreed. 7. Coding is done by several teams of two people each to insure that there are no mistakes or cheating. Again, no.   Videotaping can insure against errors.

Huh? He just said no videotaping. 8. The first team of two people removes any identification of the samples and randomly codes and records the fifty sample sets using a  numerical index, labeling the samples with numbers that correspond to the true identity of the samples.. There can be nothing to be "removed."  That could leave traces.  Containers can be retained in labeled envelopes.  The replacement identifications can be labels.

I don’t get why this re-coding is necessary. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 9. The second team randomly assigns the numerically coded samples with alphabetical coding, records the numerical identity of the samples, removes the numerical labels and labels the samples alphabetically.  In this way no one person will be able to know the true identity of a  sample without conferring with a member from another indexing team. No "second team."  Too many possibilities for error.  If the previous process is carried out properly, it is secure. 10. The numerical and alphabetical indexes shall be kept in separate locations mutually agreed on by the applicant and JREF. No.  The single coding will be retained by one trusted person.  There are simple ways to ensure the security.  Making the coding into a complex procedure is not the best way.

Agreed, but who can do it? 11. After one lunar cycle, from full moon to full moon, the applicant will produce to the accountants the results as to which are the potentized and which are not. Incredible.  Sounds like a child’s fairy story.  But acceptable.  If it makes them feel better…. 12. The results will be assessed by the same accountants who managed the coding of the samples. No.  Simply opening up the coding will be sufficient.  No "assessment" is needed.  The results are evident.

Right. 13. The Challenge shall be considered to have been won if the applicant has produced 70% correct results or better. For the preliminary test, yes.  Odds are about one in one thousand

No, that’s wrong.   not an acceptable level for the million-dollar prize, but okay for the preliminary test, which is what we’re discussing here.

What percent does he want for a formal test? Do we have any idea? Benneth is fond of redefining the JREF test in his own terms.  He’s welcome to his fantasies, but they do not relate to reality, which is where we’re located.  The procedure above sounds to me to be expensive, but Benneth must be aware of this, and must be prepared to finance the operation.                                         James Randi

Certainly has been what he is noted for doing. It’s what Art Bell said he’s done with people repeatedly. He’ll argue and argue over the conditions. He’s never signed his own Challenge, which was an idea he ripped off from Houdini of whom Randi wrote a a slavish biography of  . . . and showed off his collection of Houdini "Challenge" posters. Except in the Houdini Challenge, Houdini is the guy taking the Challenge. Randi’s obviously turned it around. He wants me to be Houdini!  It’s a unilateral contract and now he’s saying that the only way to get a fair judgement is to pay somebody like Price Waterhouse for it? Yeah, right. And how much do they kick back to him? Here, buy my book. Join my Skeptics club, that’ll be fifty bucks. Notice how he says what it is I’m supposed to do, and what is I will do, like he’s Jeanne Dixon or Kreskin or somebody. Then he tries ordering me around: "BENNETH, HERE IS HOW YOU MUST ADDRESS YOUR E-MAIL TO ME!" "BENNETH, STOP SENDING ME CRAP" "BENNETH, GET ON WITH IT! BENNETH WON’T DO THISS, HE WON’T DO THAT" It’s like I’m this bad boy BENNETH, YOU IRRITATE ME!      And he’s always saying what it is I am: "BENNETH, YOU’RE A FOOL! BENNETH, YOU’RE A WACKO! YOU DUMMY!"  etc. etc. etc.      Wow! This guy is a riot! I think he kind of likes me. I’ll have to send you the "psychic reading" I did for him a while back. It really pissed him off, I think!      Hey, thanks for the asessment. I appreciate your criticism, especially when its of me, I need all I can get if I’m going to get better. jb Hi John, Syd, HD, My initial impression of this is that JREF is making this so difficult that no protocol will ever be agreed upon, and no one will ever be tested.  What do you guys think?

Kim, everybody, Randi clearly got off to an abusive, ill-tempered start in his response to B’s protocol.  But I’ve been very impressed by how well Alain has stepped in to talk turkey — and how Randi has responded in kind. (I have *not* been impressed by how Randi has left JB out of all of his correspondence.) I think that if the will is there on John’s part, this may prove … read more »

Response:

Question:

Anyone who thinks this about child support is not thinking. It will force millions into the underground economy. Read and weep consevatives and republicans, the United States you knew is over.  You will be controlled by the government and it does not matter what you want you will do as you are told.  The feminists and the left now have built the system that will controll you.

<snip

Response:

Anyone who thinks this about child support is not thinking. It will force millions into the underground economy.

I was sarcastic in my post.  I know this is not about child support it is about control.  We are no longer free people but subjects.  We are facing what the Russians did when the bolsheviks took over.  The American Left is no different than the Bolsheviks. This data base is perhaps the greatest threat to freedom and liberty that the US has ever seen.  Once the left has disarmed the citizens and made mute the Second Amendment then the enslavement of all us will be complete. How can anyone support a data base that will be comprised of 01.  data monitoring system that will include all individuals with new jobs and         the names, addresses, SS numbers and wages of nearly every working adult        in the US. 02.  Large banks and other        financial institutions will be obligated to search for data about delinquent        parents by name on behalf of the government, providing authorities with        details about bank accounts, money-market mutual funds and other holdings of        those parents. State officials, meanwhile, have sharply expanded the use of        Social Security numbers. Congress ordered the officials to obtain the        nine-digit numbers when issuing licenses – such as drivers’, doctors’ and        outdoorsmen’s – in order to revoke the licenses of delinquents. 03.  The system was established under a little-known part of the law overhauling         welfare three years ago. It calls for all employers to quickly file reports         on every person they hire and, quarterly, the **wages of every worker**. States         regularly must report all people seeking unemployment benefits and all         child-support cases. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read and weep consevatives and republicans, the United States you knew is over.  You will be controlled by the government and it does not matter what you want you will do as you are told.  The feminists and the left now have built the system that will controll you. <snip

Response:

Read and weep consevatives and republicans, the United States you knew is over.  You will be controlled by the government and it does not matter what you want you will do as you are told.  The feminists and the left now have built the system that will controll you. Your children are screwed. These laws are the results of just Deadbeat Parent Activists nevermind all the other losses of freedom we all suffer because of activists. Time has come to make the activist pay and pay big time. From the Washington Post. Uncle Sam Has All Your Numbers By Robert O’Harrow Jr. Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, June 27, 1999; Page A1 As part of a new and aggressive effort to track down parents who owe child support, the federal government has created a vast computerized data-monitoring system that includes all individuals with new jobs and the names, addresses, Social Security numbers and wages of nearly every working adult in the United States. Government agencies have long gathered personal information for specific reasons, such as collecting taxes. But never before have federal officials had the legal authority and technological ability to locate so many Americans found to be delinquent parents – or such potential to keep tabs on Americans accused of nothing. The system was established under a little-known part of the law overhauling welfare three years ago. It calls for all employers to quickly file reports on every person they hire and, quarterly, the wages of every worker. States regularly must report all people seeking unemployment benefits and all child-support cases. Starting next month, the system will reach further. Large banks and other financial institutions will be obligated to search for data about delinquent parents by name on behalf of the government, providing authorities with details about bank accounts, money-market mutual funds and other holdings of those parents. State officials, meanwhile, have sharply expanded the use of Social Security numbers. Congress ordered the officials to obtain the nine-digit numbers when issuing licenses – such as drivers’, doctors’ and outdoorsmen’s – in order to revoke the licenses of delinquents. Enforcement officials say the coupling of computer technology with details about individuals’ employment and financial holdings will give them an unparalleled ability to identify and locate parents who owe child support and, when necessary, withhold money from their paychecks or freeze their financial assets. "They never get away from us anymore. It’s just wonderful. . . . What you’re trying to do in child support is build a box, four walls, around a person," said Brian Shea, the acting executive director of child-support enforcement in Maryland. "It has in some ways revolutionized this business." But privacy experts and civil libertarians say the scope of the effort raises new questions about the proper line between aggressive public policy and intrusive government snooping. In pursuing an objective that is almost universally applauded, the government has also created something that many Americans have staunchly opposed: a vast pool of fresh personal information that could be used in a variety of ways to monitor their lives. "What you have here is a compilation of information that is much better and more current than any other data system in the U.S.," said Robert Gellman, a lawyer and privacy specialist in the District. "All of the sudden we’re on the verge of creating the Holy Grail of data collection, a central file on every American." Already lawmakers, federal agencies and the White House have considered expanding the permitted aims of the system to include cutting down on fraud by government contractors, improving the efficiency of the government and pinpointing debtors, such as students who default on government loans. Under the system, every employer must send information about new hires and quarterly wages to state child-support agencies. State officials gather the data, along with information on unemployment benefits and child-support cases, and then ship it to computers run by the Administration for Children and Families. ACF officials then use computers to sort and send back to state authorities reports about people obligated to pay child support. Government officials say the system is safe, accurate and discreet. They also say it is secure. Because it has, among other safeguards, systems that confirm the accuracy of Social Security numbers, officials say it will not intrude into the lives of most people. An examination of the program, however, shows that government officials have downplayed or overlooked a variety of privacy and security concerns as they worked to meet congressional deadlines. The computer system that houses much of the data at the Social Security Administration "has known weaknesses in the security of its information systems," according to a Dec. 31 report by the General Accounting Office. And authorities have not studied the frequency of mistakes that might arise from incorrect data, even though the system will enable local child-support enforcement officials to routinely freeze a parent’s assets without an additional court hearing. Few people know about the system, even though it was created through one of the signature acts of Congress and the Clinton administration – the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996, the law that ended the federal guarantee of welfare payments. Much of the congressional debate and news coverage at the time focused on the broad policy and political implications of the new law. Officials have not publicized their ability to obtain financial information because they do not want to alert delinquents to the ability of enforcement workers to seize or freeze financial assets, according to Michael Kharfen, spokesman for the federal Administration for Children and Families, which administers the program. "We’re setting aside some of the courtesies in order to accomplish what we’re trying to do," said Kharfen, who described the network as an "unprecedented, vast amount of information that is updated constantly." He added: "This is about getting financial support to the kids." A Boost for Some —- When welfare reformers on Capitol Hill and the White House approved the system in 1996, their aim was to cut down welfare spending by boosting child-support payments. They had in mind people such as Stephanie Dudley and her son Robert, who live in Farmington, Minn. Robert’s father had split up with Dudley shortly after the boy was born and drifted from place to place. He owed $350 a month in child-support payments, but it was hard tracking him down and getting him to pay. Officials found Robert’s father – and then started withholding money from his paycheck – after a new employer in Pennsylvania reported him to the network. "I literally was living from check to check," Dudley said. "I mean, that money literally put shoes on the kid’s feet, helped pay the rent." Kathy Robins of Tazewell, Va., and her 7-year-old son, Dwight, never received court-ordered child support until the system turned up his father in North Carolina. Now she gets about $120 a month, money she plans to use to pay for a babysitter this summer. "It’ll help," she said. "I mean, it’s better than I was getting before, which was nothing." Child-support advocates contend that fears about privacy are overblown when weighed against such successes. As of 1997, the latest year for which figures available, more than 7.4 million delinquents owed more than $43 billion in past child support. The system has helped boost support payments from $12 billion in 1996 to $14.4 billion last year, officials said. And in 1997, the burgeoning system helped enforcement programs locate more than 1.2 million delinquents. The system is essentially an electronic dragnet. It collects the names, Social Security numbers and other data about every newly hired employee in the nation from employers, who also must provide pay reports for most wage-earning adults. States ship along the names and other identifying information of people who receive state unemployment insurance. The Administration for Children and Families, a part of the Department of Health and Human Services, serves as a sort of clearinghouse that automatically matches all of that information against a file of nearly 12 million child support cases to locate parents obligated to pay support. Then the agency provides information about those parents – no matter whether they are behind on payments – to the appropriate state enforcement workers. The idea is to track the parents across state lines. Supporters of the system note that Congress explicitly restricted access to it. Those authorized to use the information include the Social Security Administration, which can use the directory of new hires to verify unemployment reports; the Treasury Department, which can use it to cross-reference tax-deduction claims; and researchers, who gain access only to anonymous data. Next month, financial institutions that operate in multiple states – such as Crestar Financial Corp., Charles Schwab & Co. and the State Department Federal Credit Union – will begin comparing a list of more than 3 million known delinquents against their customer accounts. Under federal law, the institutions are obligated to return the names, Social Security numbers and account details of delinquents they turn up. The Administration for Children and Families will then forward that financial information to the appropriate states. For security reasons, spokesman Kharfen said, the agency will not mix the financial data with information about new hires, wages and the like. Bank account information will be deleted after 90 days. In a test run this spring, Wells Fargo & Co. identified 72,000 customers whom states have identified as … read more »

Response:

Question:

Up in the Catskills of New York State there is a primative camping area that used to be equipped with the comtemporary outhouses most of us are

Bob, I know the place and remember when they were being put in. I also remember using them with umbrella in hand to stay dry on a rainy day, and I also remember going in there and having to have to remove several inches of snow before I could sit down. I also remember cursing the state for not putting on a roof! But, the vandalism problem is extreme. The parking lot of that particular place plays host to the hoards from Brooklyn and Queens when hunting season opens. You can stay back in the woods around the lake and watch the bonfires roar in the (no camping) parking lots, listen while they unload round after round into the fire just for fun and know that these guys are drunker than they should be with guns in hand… Scary. J — Bongo Boy never litters! [www.bongoboy.com]

Response:

Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years I would suggest the cost of the architects. I wonder if those architects will brag about their designing outhouses on their resumes. <G

Oh, no question. If you want to read about bad architecture get Don Norman’s         The Psychology of Everyday Things (1st. ed.)         The Design of Everyday Things (subsequent eds.) And then the recently oft cited Brand’s "How Buildings Learn." I know one outhouse architect in Santa Rosa.  Ken lives in Santa Rosa and he made the outhouse for the Sierra Club’s Benson hut.  When marmots started attacking the plywood, he retaliated with redwood.  Very nicely designed. Ken’s not an architect.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag?               ~                  Brett J. Nodello                ~               ~  http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/Trails/1039/  ~ Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

The article says, it "features a slate, gabled roof, cottage-style porches and a cobblestone foundation that can withstand an earthquake. The baseboards are covered with $78-a-gallon paint and the wildflower seed cost $720 a pound." — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

Response:

Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years I would suggest the cost of the architects.

I wonder if those architects will brag about their designing outhouses on their resumes. <G

Response:

: What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such : a high price tag? It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly.

Up in the Catskills of New York State there is a primative camping area that used to be equipped with the comtemporary outhouses most of us are familar with. You know the type, small wooden building with one or two seats over a hole in the ground. Anyway, over the years the outhouses were disappearing because campers were using them for firewood. The State finally woke up, took better control of the area, and decided to replace the missing outhouses. What they did is just about as vandalism-proof as you can get. They took large pieces of culvert, turned them on end and buried one end  in the ground. They then cut an opening in the culvert and attached hinges to the piece they removed to make a door. Inside the culver is the same old standard outhouse pit, with a seat on it. They did not put roofs on these, because they felt they would invite removal. So what they have are roofless outhouses made of steel scatter around this primative camping area. About the only thing that can be damaged with this setup is the seat. I know, I’ve been in a couple that were missing their’s (I assumed it was a camper needing to keep his/her fire going). Bob Clark

Response:

  $400,000 (to more or less split the difference) would have cleaned up a lot of litter, repaired a lot of trails, or purchased a fair number of acres.

Hi Stephen, I have to agree with your assessment.  In all fairness however, I would like to add a personal note.  I recently spent 5 years in the Denver area.  Since my husband and I enjoy spending a fair amount of time outdoors, we have managed to use a lot of "outhouses".  Colorado has chosen to use a % of their lottery money on the Parks system.  They have an "outhouse" built by Clivus Multrum of Sweden that is a delight to roost in.  The works itself is a composter and this seems gentler on the ecology than the old system of using lye and such.  These units didn’t stink and NO flies.  They have a skylight and are well lit.  I believe they are also maintained by a full staff of rangers.  I don’t believe I ever saw one of these units vandilized.  Even out in the backcountry they were clean. Beverly Carl & Beverly Ferree San Dimas, California Carl WA6PPG * Beverly KC6HSW RV-Club Charter R-CHAR-00202*GS Life #1304083 SKP #43475; C2C #924966; WBCCI #7303 WBCCI FullTimers Club http://www.fulltiming-america.com/WBCCI RV-Talk is sponsored by the RV Club http://www.rvclub.com

Response:

I heard about this outhouse.  I’m thinking of including a copy of the article in our website at http://www.freeourparks.org since I think such blatant waste is relevant to the issue of user fees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000.

Response:

and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly. Lots of people try to break into outhouses? <G

No, no, no. Break *out* of them. Them city folk get all cornfused when their ain’t no handle on the toilet. J — Bongo Boy never litters! [www.bongoboy.com]

Response:

It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly. Lots of people try to break into outhouses? <G

No, they do stuff like wrap a chain around the commode and attach the end to their 4×4 and yank the sucker out. It’s a sport to some folks. Even though you try to make these facilities vandalism-proof, some yahoo is going to figure out a way to break it or steal it. —         ‘Do the boogie woogie in the South American way’                               Hank Snow  THE RHUMBA BOOGIE

Response:

One thing the article didn’t point out (and I assume is true in this instance) is that capital money (construction) and operations (maintenance) money are two different animals in most federal agencies. From my experience it is always easier to get grants for capital projects versus anything to do with operations–most politicians want to build something new rather than properly maintain something older. Hence the NPS bias towards building over-spec’ed structures. Just take a look at the last 15 years of appropriations versus budgets for operations for the NPS from our buddies in Congress. The politicians are willing to budget big bucks for parks but they have never appropriated the entire amount budgeted–i.e. the budget plays well in the media but the media never goes back to check if all the budgeted monies are appropriated (too boring compared with scandal, murder and general stupidity). Still, that’s an awfully expensive shitter–sounds ridiculously excessive no matter who was in charge… Peter

Response:

It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly.

Lots of people try to break into outhouses? <G

Response:

Some people still argue NPS needs more money.  They certainly need no more of mine for nonsense like this.  $400,000 (to more or less split the difference) would have cleaned up a lot of litter, repaired a lot of trails, or purchased a fair number of acres.

Yuh, it might be nice to have such high quality – but common sense says that they could have quality without high price- not that high anyways. It’s not a choice between an old fashioned $20 out house and this $400,000 "palace".

Response:

: What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such : a high price tag? It may have to do with making it as vandalism-proof as possible. I used to work in park design for the State of Texas and you have to make those boogers strong. A few years ago I spoke with the new Park supe at DWG and asked him about vandalism there and he said that they did have a serious problem, being that close to NYC and Philly. —    "do the boogie woogie in the South American way"                            Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)

Response:

I’ll bet that users of the facility have a truly satisfying experience in there. Perhaps the outhouse is worth one of those little red squares that Rand McNally puts on their maps, to denote points of interest. — your favorite soils professional remove "spamnot" to e-mail

And I’m sure architecture students from around the world have assignments to visit this structure for it’s advanced concepts in … uh.. whatever. But what the heck is $330,000 in a $1,600,000,000,000 budget. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

Response:

For $330,000 the National Park Service had to have known they were going to have to take a lot of shit for this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag? I don’t know much about this particular instance, but I’ll bet a lot of that price represents ‘one-time’ R&D/startup costs.  Kind of like the so-called "$500 toilet seats" the Air Force is infamous for.  That is, the designer-architect’s fees, for example, are attached to this single unit, but if ten more were to be built that part would already be paid for, so subsequent units would appear to ‘cost’ much less.  I can’t imagine what about this project’s paint would warrant a special formula resulting in $78/gallon, but it may have something to do with special enviro-friendly considerations.  If this is the only such unit built–and with the publicity it’s recieved, that’s likely–then those are true costs, so perhaps we should all head out there with a case of twinkies and a large cheese pizza, and find out if it’s worth it.

,

Response:

: : What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such : a high price tag? : : I don’t know much about this particular instance, but I’ll bet a lot of : that price represents ‘one-time’ R&D/startup costs.  Kind of like the : so-called "$500 toilet seats" the Air Force is infamous for.  That is, : the designer-architect’s fees, for example, are attached to this single : unit, but if ten more were to be built that part would already be paid : for, so subsequent units would appear to ‘cost’ much less.  I can’t A better analogy would be to the $2000 coffee pot.  Yes, it was $2000, but it was not your run-of-the-mill "Mr. Coffee."  The Air Force needed something to prepare coffee for several hundred people at a time on a moving platform that wouldn’t spill boiling water all over the troops it was transporting every time it needed to make a turn. Obviously, Porta-Potties would be cheaper.  But they wouldn’t exactly blend into the background and they wouldn’t be natural appearing. At the same time, it’s likely that there’s a good amount of fat in this bit of pork.  Still, the amount of wasted money on this project is probably several time smaller than it appears on first glance. Todd

Response:

What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag?

I don’t know much about this particular instance, but I’ll bet a lot of that price represents ‘one-time’ R&D/startup costs.  Kind of like the so-called "$500 toilet seats" the Air Force is infamous for.  That is, the designer-architect’s fees, for example, are attached to this single unit, but if ten more were to be built that part would already be paid for, so subsequent units would appear to ‘cost’ much less.  I can’t imagine what about this project’s paint would warrant a special formula resulting in $78/gallon, but it may have something to do with special enviro-friendly considerations.  If this is the only such unit built–and with the publicity it’s recieved, that’s likely–then those are true costs, so perhaps we should all head out there with a case of twinkies and a large cheese pizza, and find out if it’s worth it.

Response:

<snip, slice, chop built–and with the publicity it’s recieved, that’s likely–then those are true costs, so perhaps we should all head out there with a case of twinkies and a large cheese pizza, and find out if it’s worth it.

Do you: A-Run away B-Climb Something – Climb Anything! (from a beer commercial) <G

Response:

Here’s the article my GF sent me about this high dollar outhouse. Seems to be a prime example of poor oversight in the government as well as a congressman making sure he "brings home the bacon" to his home district.  INQUIRER WASHINGTON BUREAU  DELAWARE WATER GAP, Pa. — There’s a remarkable new building in the  federal park here: a two-hole outhouse, without running water, that cost  the National Park Service at least $333,000.  It’s nestled amid evergreens, with a gabled slate roof, cottage-style  porches, and a handsomely tapered cobblestone masonry foundation in the  manner of Frank Lloyd Wright. A medley of wildflowers hides any sign of  new construction.  Inside each spacious restroom, a green horizontal stripe at baseboard  level plays off the green of hemlocks visible through discreetly placed  picture windows. The place smells as sweet as the woods.  More than a dozen Park Service designers, architects and engineers spent  two years designing this privy, which opened in May 1996. And Park  Service officials say they don’t consider it expensive.  “We could have built it cheaper, yes, but we wanted someone coming up  the trail or off the road to encounter a nice restroom facility,” says  Roger Rector, the park superintendent who signed off on the new outhouse  in 1995.  “Frankly, that’s what we’re paying for toilets,” shrugs Dennis Galvin,  deputy director of the National Park Service. They’re meant to last 50  years or longer with little maintenance, he explains, and top-quality  construction naturally costs more. Lots more.  The hemlock-matching paint designers specified, for example, is  custom-mixed epoxy resin that costs $78 a gallon. Certified Joe Pye Weed  seed called for in its wildflower design cost $720 a pound. The toilets  are $13,000 state-of-the-art composting models custom built by Advanced  Composting Systems of Whitefish, Mont. Capstones that serve as porch  railings are of quarried Indiana limestone. The clapboard siding is  one-inch cedar. And, while local slate has been good enough for  Pennsylvania homes for centuries, it wasn’t good enough for this  outhouse. So slate was shipped in from Vermont.  If there’s an earthquake, don’t worry. This may be the only privy in  Pennsylvania with 29-inch-thick foundation walls designed to withstand  one. But in midwinter, the doors will be locked because composting  toilets don’t work in freezing temperatures.  “It’s beautiful, but I’m glad I always travel with Handi Wipes,”  remarked Ann Jones of Woodbridge, N.J., after a brief stop at the  comfort station. “At first,” she added, “I thought it was a visitor  center.”  In two hours on a sunny September Saturday, Jones was one of 10 visitors  to the facility, located at a trailhead in a lovely, remote ravine 300  yards from Raymondskill Falls in the Delaware Water Gap National  Recreation Area. Summer traffic is heavier, according to park personnel,  but on weekdays in fall the 20-car parking lot often is empty.  Just how the outhouse here came to be built — came, in fact, to rank  10th nationwide among the National Park Service’s 1994 construction  priorities — is the story of a government construction program that has  had three problems:  Politicians set most of the Park Service’s construction priorities. Park  Service architects design their dreams. Cost rarely is an issue.  That’s not so surprising. Lawmakers don’t mind Washington’s splurging in  their districts. Park superintendents need lawmakers’ favor. And Park  Service designers and architects have no incentive to curb costs. They  work out of an office, the Denver Service Center, that depends for its  revenues on commissions that are a percentage of the cost of the  projects they design.  “They’re a bunch of prima donnas who just want to win awards for design  excellence,” grouses Jack Wilburn, former chief of maintenance at the  Gulf Islands National Seashore on the Florida and Mississippi coast.  “Cost doesn’t bother them; they always want to do something monumental  and unique.”  By way of cost comparison to the Raymondskill outhouse, Wilburn says he  designed and built permanent comfort stations on environmentally  sensitive islands for about $20,000. At the Delaware Water Gap park,  portable toilets in widespread use cost $500 a unit.  To build the Raymondskill outhouse, the Park Service spent money in  three different ways: planning and design, construction, and supervision  of the contractor. For planning and design, the bill was $102,614. For  supervision — by a Park Service engineer from Denver who lived on site  in Pennsylvania for 10 months — the bill was $81,220.  The Park Service and the outhouse builder disagree over actual  construction costs. The contractor, James Straka of Peckville, Pa., low  bidder among six, says building the outhouse cost him $262,000. But the  Park Service’s Denver-based manager of the job, Michael Giller,  estimates it cost “$150,000 to $200,000.”  If Giller is right, the total was between $333,000 and $383,000. If the  contractor is right, it cost more than $445,000. That doesn’t include  costs of the parking lot, new signs, an improved trail to the waterfall  and other outlays.  In a sense, all of this is no big deal. National park construction is  certifiably gorgeous; it’s won more presidential design awards than any  other federal agency. And it’s not that much money in terms of the  federal budget: The Park Service has spent $1.99 billion on construction  over the last 10 years.  But one consequence of the Park Service’s penchant for custom-designed  outhouses — and gates, fences and even benches — is a backlog in  maintenance and construction work that’s grown in the 1990s from $2  billion to nearly $5 billion, according to Park Service testimony before  Congress.  Rep. Joseph M. McDade, the No. 2 Republican on the powerful House  Appropriations Committee, is the patron of the Pennsylvania privy. The  Delaware Water Gap park lies within McDade’s district, and he insisted  on its high priority.  McDade, shown photos of the outhouse by a reporter, initially thought it  was a restored resort cottage. “That’s terrible,” he said, once  convinced it was an outhouse. “It’s a Taj Mahal! Why the hell did they  do that?” The lawmaker said he never realized an outhouse was part of  an appropriations package he pushed.  “All I do is send them the money,” McDade continued. “I don’t try and  micromanage the park.”  Since lawmakers, in effect, set most of the Park Service’s priorities  and decide how much to pay for them, Service Center architects are free  to concentrate on doing great work on sites of natural beauty.  In the case of comfort stations, a standardized design might make them  cheaper, but that’s not the way Park Service designers think. Explained  Tom Solon, the recreation area’s chief architect: “It has some merit  for the military or McDonald’s, but each national park has unique  needs.”  He believes fervently that the Park Service’s mission includes design  and construction work superior to most commercial work. “We’re going to  be criticized for high costs,” Solon said.  Solon’s attitude is his bosses’. In fact, all of the “dozens” of  comfort stations the Denver Service Center has produced in recent years  were custom-designed and custom-built, according to center director  Charles Clapper.  There are explanations for some high costs. The outhouse paint at  Raymondskill Falls, for example, is said to have remarkable durability.  The weed seed used there — of which less than a pound was bought — was  needed to restore the natural environment. The composting toilets solved  water-quality problems. Slate roofs last 75 years.  An on-site construction supervisor from Denver was needed, according to  resident architect Solon, because Solon was too busy on other projects.  Besides, that’s standard practice on projects that Denver designs. For  the same reasons, a landscape architect from Denver was used.  As for the $102,614 in design costs, two-thirds of that money went for  construction documents. Partly, that’s because Park Service architects  specify everything, right down to the size of the hole for the lock in  the parking lot gate.  In addition, all Park Service measurements for the Raymondskill outhouse  were metric. That was to oblige a federal mandate to promote the metric  system. After two such projects, Clapper recalled, Denver concluded that  metric documents discouraged potential bidders and went back to feet and  inches.  Contractor Straka, who says he lost money on the job, had no problem  with metric specifications, he said. The problem was specifications so  tight, he continued, and an on-site inspector so insistent on them, that  “I wanted to pin him to a tree with a pick.”  Inspector Stephen Herzog acknowledges the tension. “We were like  brothers,” he recalled in a telephone interview from his new assignment  at the Grand Canyon. “One minute we were at each other’s throat; next  minute, we were pulling together hard as we could to build that  sucker.”  To lawmakers, the cost of Park Service construction is no surprise. The  same 1994 Interior Appropriations conference report that paid for the  Pennsylvania privy cautioned that “the Park Service must begin looking  at construction projects as we would our own budgets, i.e., is there a  lower cost alternative?” Two years later, investigators for the General  Accounting Office, Congress’ watchdog arm, wrote that Park Service  construction projects were “plagued by nagging suspicions that design  solutions are not achieved at minimum cost.”  To the extent Congress has pressed for reform, it’s pressed Park Service  headquarters in Washington to change its policies.  Typically that job has fallen to Deborah Weatherly, the House Interior  Appropriations subcommittee’s top staffer. When

… read more »

Response:

Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it.

In 1978, I was a diver on the Weeks Island to Convent, LA, 54" strategic salt  dome oil reserve project.  They had a toilet called a "Destroilet" which used electricity and natural gas to vaporize everything.  We  It was all stainless steel, and made space ship noises once you left the thing  and closed the door.  With R&D, probably $500k.  Of course, all the animals  could still shit where they pleased.  I thought a regular Porta-potty would  have been sufficient.   Steve, the DsrtTravlr  

Response:

What is so special about the engineering of this toilet that gives it such a high price tag?               ~                  Brett J. Nodello                ~                       ~  http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/Trails/1039/  ~           – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

Response:

Today’s paper has an article about a 2 hole outhouse in the Delaware Water Gap National Recreation area that cost $330,000. A dozen park service designers, architects and engineers worked 2 years on it. — http://forestmeister.com "The ONLY forester’s web page in the otherwise sophisticated state of Massachusetts".

Response: