Question:

I talked to my Mom tonight and discussed my suspicions of ADD with her.   I’d emailed and asked her if she could look up my old report cards, especially my elementary school ones, but Dad wasn’t sure where they were, so she’s going to have him really look for them over the next little while. Mom was really good about it.  I explained my reasons for thinking I might have ADD, and I read her some descriptions and traits that really are *me*.  I also had her complete a checklist from Thom Hartmann’s book – I came out with over half of the questions as being ‘Yes’, where it had to be at least 40% to register as probable ADD. She’s supportive and said that I should do what I need to do in order to find out for sure, but she also warned me not to get all obsessive about it – a good warning for me, because I tend to go overboard (all that impulsive enthusiasm for projects, I guess).  I reassured her that I’m confining myself mostly to reading and attempting to implement the solutions I find online for organizing my life. Mom also came up with a system for us to work together to get some things under control in our own lives.  She’s a Type II Diabetic, and her diet is a big issue for her.  Me, I’m an impulse spender to the point that I’m often strapped for cash and basically never know where my money went.  So every evening, I’ll email her an accounting of my spending for the day and she’ll email me an accounting of what she ate that day.  It’ll keep us accountable to someone besides ourselves, and get us in the habit of writing everything down like we ought.  I think it will also be good if she sends me the dietician’s orders; she knows what I make, but I don’t know what she’s supposed to eat, so I can’t keep her accountable to follow her diet without the orders… while she can easily remind me when I overspend. -JL

Response:

<< Mom also came up with a system for us to work together to get some things under control in our own lives.  <BR<BR that’s a very nice plan for one another.  good work!                   \  - –  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

Response:

Good idea. There’s plenty of info on the web on how much dieters shouldn’t be consuming.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I talked to my Mom tonight and discussed my suspicions of ADD with her.   I’d emailed and asked her if she could look up my old report cards, especially my elementary school ones, but Dad wasn’t sure where they were, so she’s going to have him really look for them over the next little while. Mom was really good about it.  I explained my reasons for thinking I might have ADD, and I read her some descriptions and traits that really are *me*.  I also had her complete a checklist from Thom Hartmann’s book – I came out with over half of the questions as being ‘Yes’, where it had to be at least 40% to register as probable ADD. She’s supportive and said that I should do what I need to do in order to find out for sure, but she also warned me not to get all obsessive about it – a good warning for me, because I tend to go overboard (all that impulsive enthusiasm for projects, I guess).  I reassured her that I’m confining myself mostly to reading and attempting to implement the solutions I find online for organizing my life. Mom also came up with a system for us to work together to get some things under control in our own lives.  She’s a Type II Diabetic, and her diet is a big issue for her.  Me, I’m an impulse spender to the point that I’m often strapped for cash and basically never know where my money went.  So every evening, I’ll email her an accounting of my spending for the day and she’ll email me an accounting of what she ate that day.  It’ll keep us accountable to someone besides ourselves, and get us in the habit of writing everything down like we ought.  I think it will also be good if she sends me the dietician’s orders; she knows what I make, but I don’t know what she’s supposed to eat, so I can’t keep her accountable to follow her diet without the orders… while she can easily remind me when I overspend. -JL

Response:

Question:

I am studying accounting and my tentative career goal is forensic work.  I am currently an IT professional (programming) in the Chicago area and I am considering a career change to something more fitting. After some investigation I believe I would be suited to this (forensic accounting) type of work.  I am already enrolled in a Master’s level accounting program.  I love it, by the way.  I’m sure it isn’t anything like the real world though. (My BA is in Psychology.  I learned computer programming on the job and now I do it for a human resources outsourcing company–payroll/benefits stuff). I don’t know any forensic accountants (I _have_ looked at nafanet.com and the CFE sites already).  I thought it might be a good idea to talk to a couple before I embark on this huge commitment of time and effort! So I am writing to you to ask a few moments of your time to answer the following questions: 1.  What is the worst part of your job? 2.  Please describe the grunt work (non-sexy) you do on a routine basis that you might dislike. 3.  Does one have to be an auditor first before qualifying for a career in forensic accounting? 4.  What path would you recommmend (jobs, studies, association memberships, activities) for an aspiring forensic accountant? 5.  I noticed that a lot of the forensic pros I find on the web are published–is this necessary?  I am a good speaker, but I have never published anything. 6.  I am  a complete detective/investigative fiend and I love courtroom novels/stories.  I assume a lot of forensic pros would spend time in the courtroom (probably pretty boring) supporting lawyers. Would it be a good idea to get a law degree/JD, too? 7.  I have read that business valuation experience is quite helpful for forensic accountants.  Any other areas I might need to know about or can take coursework in that would be a good investment of my time and effort? 8.  I’m thinking about studying for CFE soon.  Should I wait until after I’ve had some experience? 9.  Is there any reason I can’t just get a year or two of accounting experience and then strike out on my own?  I’m 35—time is zipping by and I would love to work for myself. 10.  My near future reading list includes the following: (please recommend others!) Fraud Auditing and Forensic Accounting by Jack Bologna, et al; Financial Investigation and Forensic Accounting by George A. Manning; Fraud 101: Techniques and Strategies for Detection by Howard R. Davia; The Financial Numbers Game: Detecting Creative Accounting Practices by Charles W. Mulford, Eugene E. Comiskey; and for fun: The Audit by Edward J. McMillan;

Response:

Thank you for your thoughtful answers.  My greatest fantasy is that I will be able to take down high level white collar criminals.  ;)  It is a fantasy.  My worst nightmare would be that I end up disputing insurance claims.

Response:

  My greatest fantasy is that I will be able to take down high level white collar criminals. My worst nightmare would be that I end up disputing insurance claims.

That is the risk you have to face. Incidentally, there are worse things than disputing insurance claims. Jim

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am studying accounting and my tentative career goal is forensic work.  I am currently an IT professional (programming) in the Chicago area and I am considering a career change to something more fitting. After some investigation I believe I would be suited to this (forensic accounting) type of work.  I am already enrolled in a Master’s level accounting program.  I love it, by the way.  I’m sure it isn’t anything like the real world though. (My BA is in Psychology.  I learned computer programming on the job and now I do it for a human resources outsourcing company–payroll/benefits stuff). I don’t know any forensic accountants (I _have_ looked at nafanet.com and the CFE sites already).  I thought it might be a good idea to talk to a couple before I embark on this huge commitment of time and effort! So I am writing to you to ask a few moments of your time to answer the following questions: 1.  What is the worst part of your job? 2.  Please describe the grunt work (non-sexy) you do on a routine basis that you might dislike.

The term "forensic accountant" is something of an oxymoron.   "Forensic" relates to a forum that is generally chaotic and mainly about "winning".   "Accounting" is generally about organizing and presenting data in such a way as to eliminate (or at least decrease) chaos and uncertainty.   The field itself (forensic accounting) is anything but defined at this point.  Essentially, the only real certainty is uncertainty, and words such as "best", "worst", "like", and "dislike" are entirely inadequate for any intelligent discussion of the subject activities.  These terms all relate to individual tastes, which are infinitely variable. 3.  Does one have to be an auditor first before qualifying for a career in forensic accounting?

The most successful forensic accountant I know is a former IRS investigator (female).   4.  What path would you recommmend (jobs, studies, association memberships, activities) for an aspiring forensic accountant?

A job that involves investigation and studies, associations and activities that support it.  Given your age and educational background you should have no trouble finding opportunities. 5.  I noticed that a lot of the forensic pros I find on the web are published–is this necessary?  I am a good speaker, but I have never published anything.

Everyone has to start somewhere.  You can’t very well "publish" until you have something to publish.  Get in a position to get some experience. 6.  I am  a complete detective/investigative fiend and I love courtroom novels/stories.  I assume a lot of forensic pros would spend time in the courtroom (probably pretty boring) supporting lawyers. Would it be a good idea to get a law degree/JD, too?

Given your age and interests, a JD would make sense. 7.  I have read that business valuation experience is quite helpful for forensic accountants.  Any other areas I might need to know about or can take coursework in that would be a good investment of my time and effort? 8.  I’m thinking about studying for CFE soon.  Should I wait until after I’ve had some experience?

Join as a associate and then decide.  The ACFE has an internal forum that you should find interesting. 9.  Is there any reason I can’t just get a year or two of accounting experience and then strike out on my own?  I’m 35—time is zipping by and I would love to work for myself.

That seems like a fairly high risk approach. 10.  My near future reading list includes the following: (please recommend others!) Fraud Auditing and Forensic Accounting by Jack Bologna, et al; Financial Investigation and Forensic Accounting by George A. Manning; Fraud 101: Techniques and Strategies for Detection by Howard R. Davia; The Financial Numbers Game: Detecting Creative Accounting Practices by Charles W. Mulford, Eugene E. Comiskey; and for fun: The Audit by Edward J. McMillan;

I liked "Secrets and Lies" by Bruce Schneier. Also, "Catch Me If You Can" by Frank, Jr. Abagnale. Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA

Response:

Question:

Accountants–in order for market capitalism to not self-destruct into chaos before the eyes of children/grandkids–oughtabe godly acolytes of rectitude, rather than manipulators of legalistic but semi-fictional numbers.

On this we completely agree. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the Enron abuses of 133 is enough to make the theorists think about the folly of pushing FMV balance sheets down everybody’s throat.  Abuses of 141/142 are next! I think abuses of 142 should have been obvious from the start.  I realize that politics plays a major role in new accounting standards, but what could have made anyone think that _not_ amortizing GW was a good idea?  It is an expense and it should flow through the I/S like any other.  Add to that the subjectivity of the fair-value test for impairment, and there is a recipe for earnings management. — Todd Stephens

Request for the good of the order. Please attach a short description to acronyms & numerical descriptors at least once.  Many (probably most) of the people here are not "code literate". — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

It seems to me that many of the threads and discussions here spiral around the same central issue: honesty and fairness as prerequisites of economic well-being, especially collectively and in the long run. Accountants have a referee’s role to fulfill in the ball game. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": BND Saddam Hussein Kabul Bin Ladin bomb Delta Force counter-intelligence

Response:

It seems to me that many of the threads and discussions here spiral around the same central issue: honesty and fairness as prerequisites of economic well-being, especially collectively and in the long run.

<clarity break Accountants have a referee’s role to fulfill in the ball game.

I totally agree.  I would assert that in the larger scheme of things, "referee" is our ultimate and primary role. That is not to say that all accountants should be referees, or even attempt to be.  It is to say that those of us who are should see it as a "sacred calling" (yes Ron – that is theology). — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Historically, that is not true.  You frequently get stocks with market prices below book value.  You also frequently get stocks selling below actual liquidating value.  The goal of the market & system is ongoing companies, not looking for things to liquidate.

… The telephone company’s stock would not be selling at one-fourth its "book value" if the public were satisfied with the liquidity of such "book value."

…

Response:

Request for the good of the order. Please attach a short description to acronyms & numerical descriptors at least once.  Many (probably most) of the people here are not "code literate".

Sorry.  For those unknown, lost souls out there lurking, 142 = SFAS 142, "Goodwill and Other Intangible Assets". GW = goodwill (my own abbreviation, not any type of ‘official’ acronym).  I/S = income statement (every accounting professor I’ve ever had abbreviates it this way, so I assume it is standard).  I suppose I should define SFAS as well = Statement of Financial Accounting Standard, although I often find myself thinking Special Forces Assessment and Selection whenever I hear it aloud. — Todd Stephens

Response:

Sorry.  For those unknown, lost souls out there lurking, 142 = SFAS 142, "Goodwill and Other Intangible Assets".

Likewise, SFAS 133 deals with derivative accounting and the requirement to establish FMVs for deratives.  If deratives meet certain requirements as pure hedges, the change in FMV is run through Equity as Other Comprehensive Income. Otherwsie, the changes is run through the income statement. SFAS 133 is how you can recognize $400 million dollars in revenue by entering into a contract with Blockbuster to guarantee video rentals in the future Chris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry.  For those unknown, lost souls out there lurking, 142 = SFAS 142, "Goodwill and Other Intangible Assets". Likewise, SFAS 133 deals with derivative accounting and the requirement to establish FMVs for deratives.  If deratives meet certain requirements as pure hedges, the change in FMV is run through Equity as Other Comprehensive Income. Otherwsie, the changes is run through the income statement. SFAS 133 is how you can recognize $400 million dollars in revenue by entering into a contract with Blockbuster to guarantee video rentals in the future Chris

Todd & Chris, Excellent.  Thanks. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Agree.  Well said. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems to me that many of the threads and discussions here spiral around the same central issue: honesty and fairness as prerequisites of economic well-being, especially collectively and in the long run. Accountants have a referee’s role to fulfill in the ball game. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA

Response:

I agree too.  Then, why don’t we organize our activities to more directly address the need for trust and reputations of individuals? http://www.si.umich.edu/~presnick/papers/cacm00/reputations.pdf TOdd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Agree.  Well said. It seems to me that many of the threads and discussions here spiral around the same central issue: honesty and fairness as prerequisites of economic well-being, especially collectively and in the long run. Accountants have a referee’s role to fulfill in the ball game. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA

Response:

Don’t rely on one ratio which is a fairly outdated one to begin with.

Reading these posts leaves me speechless.   Book value is just that – book value.  It is a balancing number.  It may or may not approximate the value of a company.  More likely than not it doesn’t. It is just what is says it is – book value.  Not market value.  Not liquidation value.  Just book value. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Don’t rely on one ratio which is a fairly outdated one to begin with. Reading these posts leaves me speechless.   Book value is just that – book value.  It is a balancing number.  It may or may not approximate the value of a company.  More likely than not it doesn’t. It is just what is says it is – book value.  Not market value.  Not liquidation value.  Just book value.

Right. Those attacking book value generally would like to erode the historic cost principle even more and ultimately replace it altogether with a combination of guesstimates and wishful thinking. IOW legalise systematic occupational fraud. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP Key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": Panama assassination SDI South Africa Waco, Texas NORAD radar von Buelow

Response:

Right. Those attacking book value generally would like to erode the historic cost principle even more and ultimately replace it altogether with a combination of guesstimates and wishful thinking. IOW legalise systematic occupational fraud.

I think the Enron abuses of 133 is enough to make the theorists think about the folly of pushing FMV balance sheets down everybody’s throat.  Abuses of 141/142 are next! Chris

Response:

Whoa! Hold on there folks.  I don’t recall saying anything about FMV balance sheets.  The original post was in reference to financial analysts talking about stocks in relation to their book value per share. -from the original post- "This famous stock has had a 19 plus dollar book value; but is selling today for only about $4 a share." My position was that this particular metric is useless when evaluating a security.  Let’s not confuse the subject of securities analysis with financial reporting here.  A FMV balance sheet, besides being far too subjective, would be a cost-prohibitive act for nearly all companies.  That was never the point of the post to begin with however. — Todd Stephens

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Right. Those attacking book value generally would like to erode the historic cost principle even more and ultimately replace it altogether with a combination of guesstimates and wishful thinking. IOW legalise systematic occupational fraud. I think the Enron abuses of 133 is enough to make the theorists think about the folly of pushing FMV balance sheets down everybody’s throat.  Abuses of 141/142 are next! Chris

Response:

Todd, you are correct in that we have strayed off topic. But the off topic subject is interesting in its own right. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete it and inform the sender. PGP key fingerprint=F1C0 D9AE 1B18 1405 4DFA  B4CC 6DC7 FF78 C76E FB15 To Big Brother Echelon from "spook": domestic disruption jihad terrorist smuggle fissionable Panama Rumsfeld

Response:

I asked the original question, and appreciate ye professionals’  time and interest. Here is my typical off-the-wall rejoinder: So-called "value-investors" glom onto a company because its assets are seemingly more valuable than is apparent in its stock price–such as the dry goods chain which owns its own stores. THE DICK DAVIS DIGEST and VALUE LINE pick-up on such opportunities. There are plenty of newsletters and proclaiming hidden values. I have also read the doomsdayist Martin Weiss’ ads and occasionally his newsletter for years about the weakness of overly-leveraged, prestgious yet junque bonded-funded gigantic corporations. Well, folks, AT & T and now AOL–TIME WARNER etal stock market prices are battered into the teens. Weiss’ dutch uncle sky is falling whistle-blowing is right. Such is the dynamical reality of risk and reward–boom/bust reality. It’s more excitement than a cardiovascular unit with a power-outage and its diesel auxilary down too. Ted Turner’s guesstimated 10 billion is down to merely … . MSFT got as high as approx $120 a share prior to that unpleasantness in the anti-trust legal action. The stock market precipitously was effected bearishly, as interest rates were increased to dampen irrational exhuberance. Sh_t has happened to say the least. While the amazing Walmart says now: WE’RE NUMBER ONE, the overly-leveraged K-mart must break a few hundred of its leases, including the one near me–but the two new Walmarts nearby are much better places to consume consume consume at anyhow. They are also giving Kroger & Publix cut-throat competition. Walmart has long leases, and gets tremendous tax incentives to lease from its various developers. Such has been how growth and development and expansion and competition and consumption and happiness have happened. That’s how its done, and who am I but a little schtunk nobody to ever question such. But if I were elected dictator to make political-economic-financial policy for the nation: I think I would enlist the advisories of the radical reformers hopefully w/in your profession a la the "reactionary" or ole fashion Martin Weiss (if he’s also a CPA). The current model or paradigm is PERHAPS no longer suitable-credible-adaptive for securing the survival of this ole democratic-republic political-economic state. Accountants–in order for market capitalism to not self-destruct into chaos before the eyes of children/grandkids–oughtabe godly acolytes of rectitude, rather than manipulators of legalistic but semi-fictional numbers. Sophisticated tax avoidance schemes and other book shiftinesses would be no-no in my dictatorship. Of course  it ain’t gonna happen in a rational reform incremental way as our politicos wouldn’t dare do such right things. Arthur Levitt was kiched in the nuts for trying to clean the Agean stable a little. Thus, stock market investors’ inherent fears/greeds/nightmares of: Enron—-domino—-India (allegedly which is in default on a 30 billion dollar Enron-induced over-capacity powerplant) domino—–Argentina —- wake-up the Wife mumbling: …economic-financial apocalypse… trading reverts to beads-shales-gold-bartering ****Be informed  of the no–loser lottery bond in which the player’s/bondholder’s principal maintains Help enact a U.S. lottery bond and/or a lottery bond for your State and/or county. For some info, search: Premium Bond, National Savings, E.R.N.I.E.

Response:

I asked the original question, and appreciate ye professionals’  time and interest. Here is my typical off-the-wall rejoinder:

-snip- Reads like a manifesto. — Todd Stephens

Response:

Todd, you are correct in that we have strayed off topic. But the off topic subject is interesting in its own right.

While I agree that the concept of a FMV balance sheet is interesting, I don’t think it to be practical.  What would the costs of something like that be?  Every publicly traded company would need an army of accountants just to keep up with the continuous appraisals of every last asset and liability on the B/S.  <sarcasmHey, wait a minute.  I’m changing my mind on this.  We _need_ FMV balance sheets!  We could petition Congress to make it a law and call it the Accountants Full Employment Act!</sarcasm — Todd Stephens

Response:

Well, Sir, if the gist of your post is that the worldwide megafinance house of cards may collapse and everyone (i. e. including USofA, Japan and Western Europe) be faced with life

Question:

To Rockler I took back a $40.00 router bit I had never used since buying it Aug. ‘99.  They refunded my cash without hesitation.  I did have the receipt (yellowed  Others have bad-mouthed Rockler, perhaps fairly…but I’ll keep going back. To Kmart I tried to return an unused set of Kmart-brand car mats I bought 1 week ago on sale for $10.00.  I’ve misplaced the receipt. They flatout refused any sort of refund or credit.  New policy.  They can kiss my ass.  Plenty of vacant lots around here for a Wal-Mart.

Response:

To Rockler I took back a $40.00 router bit I had never used since buying it Aug. ‘99.  They refunded my cash without hesitation.  I did have the receipt (yellowed  Others have bad-mouthed Rockler, perhaps fairly…but I’ll keep going back.

I’ve not seen a lot of Rockler bashing. To Kmart I tried to return an unused set of Kmart-brand car mats I bought 1 week ago on sale for $10.00.  I’ve misplaced the receipt. They flatout refused any sort of refund or credit.  New policy.  They can kiss my ass.  Plenty of vacant lots around here for a Wal-Mart.

K-mart vs Rockler? Sorta an apples and oranges comparison.

Response:

K-mart instituted that policy because they have quite a theft problem…..serves ‘em right IMHO. — J. Durango – "A person shouldn’t believe in an ‘ism. He should believe in himself." Riddle of the Day: Q: Why is Eric Clapton like a cup of black coffee? A: They both suck without "Cream"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To Rockler I took back a $40.00 router bit I had never used since buying it Aug. ‘99.  They refunded my cash without hesitation.  I did have the receipt (yellowed  Others have bad-mouthed Rockler, perhaps fairly…but I’ll keep going back. To Kmart I tried to return an unused set of Kmart-brand car mats I bought 1 week ago on sale for $10.00.  I’ve misplaced the receipt. They flatout refused any sort of refund or credit.  New policy.  They can kiss my ass.  Plenty of vacant lots around here for a Wal-Mart.

Response:

Can anyone really tell me WHY any Store should refund money on returned merchandise without a sales slip….?    I really have no problem with that policy… As for theft…..well all I can say about that issue is that we all pay inflated prices to cover the losses… Just my opinion… Bob Griffiths – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – K-mart instituted that policy because they have quite a theft problem…..serves ‘em right IMHO. — J. Durango – "A person shouldn’t believe in an ‘ism. He should believe in himself." Riddle of the Day: Q: Why is Eric Clapton like a cup of black coffee? A: They both suck without "Cream" To Rockler I took back a $40.00 router bit I had never used since buying it Aug. ‘99.  They refunded my cash without hesitation.  I did have the receipt (yellowed  Others have bad-mouthed Rockler, perhaps fairly…but I’ll keep going back. To Kmart I tried to return an unused set of Kmart-brand car mats I bought 1 week ago on sale for $10.00.  I’ve misplaced the receipt. They flatout refused any sort of refund or credit.  New policy.  They can kiss my ass.  Plenty of vacant lots around here for a Wal-Mart.

Response:

Uh, they are also bankrupt now… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – K-mart instituted that policy because they have quite a theft problem…..serves ‘em right IMHO. — J. Durango – "A person shouldn’t believe in an ‘ism. He should believe in himself." Riddle of the Day: Q: Why is Eric Clapton like a cup of black coffee? A: They both suck without "Cream" To Rockler I took back a $40.00 router bit I had never used since buying it Aug. ‘99.  They refunded my cash without hesitation.  I did have the receipt (yellowed  Others have bad-mouthed Rockler, perhaps fairly…but I’ll keep going back. To Kmart I tried to return an unused set of Kmart-brand car mats I bought 1 week ago on sale for $10.00.  I’ve misplaced the receipt. They flatout refused any sort of refund or credit.  New policy.  They can kiss my ass.  Plenty of vacant lots around here for a Wal-Mart.

Response:

Well IMHO not giving money back with a receipt is probably one of the few things that KMart did right.  What would keep you from walking back to the automotive department, picking up a set of floor mats, and immediately going to the refund desk?  Demanding a receipt is just good business especially in a store. KMart’s other big problems are their way over compensated higher ups in their affiliated organizations and their over priced crap.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To Rockler I took back a $40.00 router bit I had never used since buying it Aug. ‘99.  They refunded my cash without hesitation.  I did have the receipt (yellowed  Others have bad-mouthed Rockler, perhaps fairly…but I’ll keep going back. To Kmart I tried to return an unused set of Kmart-brand car mats I bought 1 week ago on sale for $10.00.  I’ve misplaced the receipt. They flatout refused any sort of refund or credit.  New policy.  They can kiss my ass.  Plenty of vacant lots around here for a Wal-Mart.

Response:

K-Mart  is in Chapter 11 (Reorganization) and must operate under the provisions set forth by the Bankruptcy court to restructure cash flow, cut losses and pay off debt. Strict Court-supervised policies are in effect as past of the Ch 11 plan to return to solvency.  "No Tickie, No Laundry". Moral: be responsible; keep your receipts. — Steve www.ApacheTrail.com Mesa, AZ

: K-mart instituted that policy because they have quite a theft : problem…..serves ‘em right IMHO. : : —

Response:

Can anyone really tell me WHY any Store should refund money on returned merchandise without a sales slip….?    I really have no problem with that policy…

If the product is identifiable as having been carried by the store, then the worst case scenario, IMHO, would have been to offer a store credit for the value of the merchandise.  The actual cost of the merchandise was probably in the range of 30-40% of selling price.  In this case, for about $4, the store would have engendered considerable goodwill.  The result would be a customer that would return to purchase more goods at the store.  In its present condition, the store in question can hardly afford to lose any more customers. A.

Response:

Home Depot’s policy in my area was to give refunds, "no questions asked". They had to change the policy because that was where to drug users was getting the money to buy their morning fix.  They would walk in the store – pickup and item – and receive money in the amount of it costs.  (Notice I didn’t say refund because you cannot receive a refund on something that you did not buy.) I was told by a policeman friend of mine that 1 store in the local area was loosing over thirty thousand dollars a month due to shop lifting.  This made changing the policy necessary to require a receipt. End result is that the good guys suffer because of the bad. Marv

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well IMHO not giving money back with a receipt is probably one of the few things that KMart did right.  What would keep you from walking back to the automotive department, picking up a set of floor mats, and immediately going to the refund desk?  Demanding a receipt is just good business especially in a store. KMart’s other big problems are their way over compensated higher ups in their affiliated organizations and their over priced crap. To Rockler I took back a $40.00 router bit I had never used since buying it Aug. ‘99.  They refunded my cash without hesitation.  I did have the receipt (yellowed  Others have bad-mouthed Rockler, perhaps fairly…but I’ll keep going back. To Kmart I tried to return an unused set of Kmart-brand car mats I bought 1 week ago on sale for $10.00.  I’ve misplaced the receipt. They flatout refused any sort of refund or credit.  New policy.  They can kiss my ass.  Plenty of vacant lots around here for a Wal-Mart.

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K-mart vs Rockler? Sorta an apples and oranges comparison.

Yes and No.  When KMart was the only thing around, everyone went there, because they were cheaper than the full price stores.  WalMart and Target have passed them by because they have the same goods with similar prices. Plus, you go from a WalMart to a KMart, and the immediate feeling is "What a dump!" I just moved from Colorado Springs to Anaheim.  CS has a Woodcraft store, which always seems neat and tidy.  In Anaheim, the store is Rockler.  The aisles are narrow, and there just seems to be an air of chaos to the place. The parallel ends with the store personnel.  In both Woodcraft and Rockler the people are generally knowledgeable, often very much so, and both stores emphasize helping the customer. I really liked my Woodcraft store.  I’m sure I’ll like the Rockler store as well, just as soon as I figure out where to find everything.

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To Kmart I tried to return an unused set of Kmart-brand car mats I bought 1 week ago on sale for $10.00.  I’ve misplaced the receipt. They flatout refused any sort of refund or credit.  New policy.  They can kiss my ass.  Plenty of vacant lots around here for a Wal-Mart.

What did you expect? With no reciept, you can’t prove you purchased them. I personally don’t expect ANY service from ANYWHERE without a reciept.  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **                 http://www.usenet.com

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The bad thing about getting money for the product that you did not pay for vs. just stealing the product, is that the store looses the cost of the product, PLUS the profit, Plus the sales tax vs. just the cost of the product.

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If the product is identifiable as having been carried by the store, then the worst case scenario, IMHO, would have been to offer a store credit for the value of the merchandise.  The actual cost of the merchandise was probably in the range of 30-40% of selling price.  In this case, for about $4, the store would have engendered considerable goodwill.  The result would be a customer that would return to purchase more goods at the store.  In its present condition, the store in question can hardly afford to lose any more customers.

They probably worked the numbers and they figured they lose LESS money by losing a few customers rather than instituting a liberal return policy that costs them money (due to theft/return scam).  Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services     ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **                 http://www.usenet.com

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If markup was 60-70% as you think, I don’t think they’d be in bankruptcy right now.  My guess is markup is in the 8-20% range. Shawn C. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone really tell me WHY any Store should refund money on returned merchandise without a sales slip….?    I really have no problem with that policy… If the product is identifiable as having been carried by the store, then the worst case scenario, IMHO, would have been to offer a store credit for the value of the merchandise.  The actual cost of the merchandise was probably in the range of 30-40% of selling price.  In this case, for about $4, the store would have engendered considerable goodwill.  The result would be a customer that would return to purchase more goods at the store.  In its present condition, the store in question can hardly afford to lose any more customers. A.

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I was told by a policeman friend of mine that 1 store in the local area was loosing over thirty thousand dollars a month due to shop lifting.  This made changing the policy necessary to require a receipt.

You can still get a store credit without a receipt.  Unless you bought something for 100s or 1000s of dollars, you are likely to buy something else at Home Depot before too long. When I was returning something last fall, the guy ahead of me at the return counter remarked that they were no seedy looking guys in line anymore. I was shocked to find that Home Depot still gave out cash with no receipt.  I thought that policy went out at most stores in the 1980s or earlier. Briann Elfert

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Man, I was in the Colorado Springs Woodcraft store a couple of weeks ago (on vacation), and I thought I had died and gone to heaven.  The only store near me like that is a Woodworkers Warehouse, an hour away in Albany, NY, and it’s worthless.  No bargains, the sales staff must have been hired away from K-Mart, and it’s not exactly a busy place.  I wanna swap stores. — Jon Endres, PE West Mountain Engineering

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – K-mart vs Rockler? Sorta an apples and oranges comparison. Yes and No.  When KMart was the only thing around, everyone went there, because they were cheaper than the full price stores.  WalMart and Target have passed them by because they have the same goods with similar prices. Plus, you go from a WalMart to a KMart, and the immediate feeling is "What a dump!" I just moved from Colorado Springs to Anaheim.  CS has a Woodcraft store, which always seems neat and tidy.  In Anaheim, the store is Rockler.  The aisles are narrow, and there just seems to be an air of chaos to the place. The parallel ends with the store personnel.  In both Woodcraft and Rockler the people are generally knowledgeable, often very much so, and both stores emphasize helping the customer. I really liked my Woodcraft store.  I’m sure I’ll like the Rockler store as well, just as soon as I figure out where to find everything.

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If markup was 60-70% as you think, I don’t think they’d be in bankruptcy right now.  My guess is markup is in the 8-20% range. Shawn C.

I think the above is, IMHO, slight underestimate of markup.  If what you say were true, then K-mart would have to be selling virtually everything in their weekly sale flyer at or below cost since many of the sale prices are between 10-25% off regular prices.  Why K-mart is in the process of voluntary reorganization is probably a whole lot more complex than simple customer service or markup. A.

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This thread seems to have gone from Kmart to Home Depot.  While my experience with Kmart in recent years has been nil, I am very happy with Home Depot. Some time ago, I purchased an oscillating sander at HD.  It broke within the first year and I had it fixed by the dealer.  A couple of months later it broke again.  I didn’t want to go back to the dealer so I took it ot Home Deport to have them send it out for repair.  To my surprise, instead of taking it and making me wait while it was being repaired, they gave me a new sander. No receipt, no questions, just service. Now when I’m looking for something for the home, I go to Home Depot first, even though there is a Lowe’s right next door. Just my opinion. Ron Dupre

I was told by a policeman friend of mine that 1 store in the local area was loosing over thirty thousand dollars a month due to shop lifting.  This made changing the policy necessary to require a receipt. You can still get a store credit without a receipt.  Unless you bought

something for 100s or 1000s of dollars, you are likely to buy something else at Home Depot before too long. When I was returning something last fall, the guy ahead of me at the

return counter remarked that they were no seedy looking guys in line anymore. I was shocked to find that Home Depot still gave out cash with no receipt.

I thought that policy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – went out at most stores in the 1980s or earlier. Briann Elfert

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Umm believe it or not, these discount chains DO in fact sell many items in their adds as "Lost Leaders"  and do loose money on many advertised items. The first years of my career were as a store manager in one of these type stores.  Typically an average of 45% mark up was GOOD.  The company owned warehouse got their cut also, which brought the store cost up further from actual vendor price.  I vividly recall always loosing money on motor oil and spark plugs.  However with motor oil, you sell a private label oil filter and in those days with spark plugs you sold a cap, rotor, points, and a condenser. 8 or so years ago my investment manager advised against purchasing Kmart stock.  Apparently the profits were being eaten up by the affiliated business partners that wanted much more share of the profits than they deserved.  It was an upper end management accounting problem that would not go away.  Do I smell Enron?  BTY I live in Houston, home of Enron, and can actually say having worked less than 1 mile from their very tall down town building for 7 or 8 years, never had heard of Enron prior to the naming of the new Baseball field built in downtown Houston a couple of years ago. Enron Field.  Up until a year ago, I was clueless what Enron did. Apparently it was a secret that they did nothing but collect money from stock holders and funnel it in to certain people’s pockets. I’ll step down off the soap box now.  ;~)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If markup was 60-70% as you think, I don’t think they’d be in bankruptcy right now.  My guess is markup is in the 8-20% range. Shawn C. I think the above is, IMHO, slight underestimate of markup.  If what you say were true, then K-mart would have to be selling virtually everything in their weekly sale flyer at or below cost since many of the sale prices are between 10-25% off regular prices.  Why K-mart is in the process of voluntary reorganization is probably a whole lot more complex than simple customer service or markup. A.

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BTY I live in Houston, home of Enron, and can actually say having worked less than 1 mile from their very tall down town building for 7 or 8 years, never had heard of Enron prior to the naming of the new Baseball field built in downtown Houston a couple of years ago. Enron Field.  Up until a year ago, I was clueless what Enron did. Apparently it was a secret that they did nothing but collect money from stock holders and funnel it in to certain people’s pockets.

There’s been a thought that started swirling around in my cavernous head in the past few days. And, since you brought up Enron, and we’re way off topic anyway… I find some of the similarities with the World Trade Center and Enron fascinating. First they were both members of the "largest" club in their respective arenas. A relatively small group of people, attempting to further their own interests, had devastating affects on thousands of people. And, what intrigues me the most, is the unbelievable speed both came crashing down. As I watched TV on 9/11, I wasn’t prepared for the sudden and total collapse of two of the largest buildings in the world. It was mindboggling – perhaps similarly to the thoughts of the public in the Titanic era. As well, Enron had been built up to be this mega-powerhouse (pun intended) that just folded like a deck of cards. I don’t know what it means beyond these few comparisons. Perhaps Enron exemplifies and allows us to view the profit-at-the-expense-of-others corporate steamroller that other countries find so distasteful about the US. "I’ll take the flame-retardant panties in size 18 please." — Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design. <http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com <http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

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Owen, you have hit the nail right smack dab on the head.  What was sickening was Mr. Lay’s pathetic wife crying on national TV trying to defend her husband.  He was the supposedly the "Ignorant" top dog at Enron.  She was crying because they were now broke.  I really feel sorry for individuals that loose hundreds of millions of ill gotten dollars in a matter on months but still retain a few million dollars.  How will they survive. At least out government is televising and showing the names and faces of all the ones that are pleading the 5th.  ;~)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTY I live in Houston, home of Enron, and can actually say having worked less than 1 mile from their very tall down town building for 7 or 8 years, never had heard of Enron prior to the naming of the new Baseball field built in downtown Houston a couple of years ago. Enron Field.  Up until a year ago, I was clueless what Enron did. Apparently it was a secret that they did nothing but collect money from stock holders and funnel it in to certain people’s pockets. There’s been a thought that started swirling around in my cavernous head in the past few days. And, since you brought up Enron, and we’re way off topic anyway… I find some of the similarities with the World Trade Center and Enron fascinating. First they were both members of the "largest" club in their respective arenas. A relatively small group of people, attempting to further their own interests, had devastating affects on thousands of people. And, what intrigues me the most, is the unbelievable speed both came crashing down. As I watched TV on 9/11, I wasn’t prepared for the sudden and total collapse of two of the largest buildings in the world. It was mindboggling – perhaps similarly to the thoughts of the public in the Titanic era. As well, Enron had been built up to be this mega-powerhouse (pun intended) that just folded like a deck of cards. I don’t know what it means beyond these few comparisons. Perhaps Enron exemplifies and allows us to view the profit-at-the-expense-of-others corporate steamroller that other countries find so distasteful about the US. "I’ll take the flame-retardant panties in size 18 please." — Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design. <http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com <http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

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ROTFLMAO… I’m sorry ….did you say that Lowe’s prompts HD employees to be friendly.  LOL I live in Houston and we probably have 30 of both total.  HD has learned nothing from Lowe’s as far as the friendly and clean looking part.  I rate them equal myself.  HD has the selection, and you get friendly service at Lowe’s. I am glad that Lowe’s has had a positive affect on your local HD.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now when I’m looking for something for the home, I go to Home Depot first, even though there is a Lowe’s right next door. If you dun mind, I’ll go to Lowes instead of HD. Without Lowes, HD may not be that friendly or generous. We too have a HD and Lowes facing each other across the street. Just excising my right as a consumer. Cobzy Just my opinion. Ron Dupre I was told by a policeman friend of mine that 1 store in the local area was loosing over thirty thousand dollars a month due to shop lifting. This made changing the policy necessary to require a receipt. You can still get a store credit without a receipt.  Unless you bought something for 100s or 1000s of dollars, you are likely to buy something else at Home Depot before too long. When I was returning something last fall, the guy ahead of me at the return counter remarked that they were no seedy looking guys in line anymore. I was shocked to find that Home Depot still gave out cash with no receipt. I thought that policy went out at most stores in the 1980s or earlier. Briann Elfert

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Like the Lay’s are gonna sell their multi million dollar houses and move into a 5th or 6th owner trailer somewhere. Broke my ass. I was one of those who had investments in Enron. I’m still hesitating about jumping in the truck and driving to Texas. I think I’d cool off somewhere about Preston Road in Dallas.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Owen, you have hit the nail right smack dab on the head.  What was sickening was Mr. Lay’s pathetic wife crying on national TV trying to defend her husband.  He was the supposedly the "Ignorant" top dog at Enron.  She was crying because they were now broke.  I really feel sorry for individuals that loose hundreds of millions of ill gotten dollars in a matter on months but still retain a few million dollars.  How will they survive. At least out government is televising and showing the names and faces of all the ones that are pleading the 5th.  ;~) BTY I live in Houston, home of Enron, and can actually say having worked less than 1 mile from their very tall down town building for 7 or 8 years, never had heard of Enron prior to the naming of the new Baseball field built in downtown Houston a couple of years ago. Enron Field.  Up until a year ago, I was clueless what Enron did. Apparently it was a secret that they did nothing but collect money from stock holders and funnel it in to certain people’s pockets. There’s been a thought that started swirling around in my cavernous head in the past few days. And, since you brought up Enron, and we’re way off topic anyway… I find some of the similarities with the World Trade Center and Enron fascinating. First they were both members of the "largest" club in their respective arenas. A relatively small group of people, attempting to further their own interests, had devastating affects on thousands of people. And, what intrigues me the most, is the unbelievable speed both came crashing down. As I watched TV on 9/11, I wasn’t prepared for the sudden and total collapse of two of the largest buildings in the world. It was mindboggling – perhaps similarly to the thoughts of the public in the Titanic era. As well, Enron had been built up to be this mega-powerhouse (pun intended) that just folded like a deck of cards. I don’t know what it means beyond these few comparisons. Perhaps Enron exemplifies and allows us to view the profit-at-the-expense-of-others corporate steamroller that other countries find so distasteful about the US. "I’ll take the flame-retardant panties in size 18 please." — Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design. <http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com <http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

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Of course, most of them have off-shore bank accounts for when/if something like this happens.

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Now when I’m looking for something for the home, I go to Home Depot first, even though there is a Lowe’s right next door. If you dun mind, I’ll go to Lowes instead of HD. Without Lowes, HD may not be that friendly or generous. We too have a HD and Lowes facing each other across the street.

  In the northeast, we had HQ before Home Depot.   Then Home Depot came in and built stores across the   street or next to every HQ and beat them on price.   HQ couldn’t compete and shut down. Soon thereafter,   Home Depot’s prices went right back up to where HQs   were.   Competition is great until there is a winner. Then   everyone loses.   Tim Henrion   Boston

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Question:

In article Until I saw the "ironman athlete" comment on the Irongirl page,

my feelings about her were pretty neutral.  I saw merit to both sides of the argument. Yeah, I think what Ron was referring to was the

"ironman athlete" comment on her Judy Molnar line of sportswear on the

Irongirl web-site.  I doubt the claim originated with her, but without a doubt,

she’s not apparently making much of an effort to correct any misconceptions

that may arise. I’m going to try posting this message again. Forgive me if it appears a couple of times… Where on the iron-girl website do you see Judy or anyone else called her an "ironman athlete"?!? http://www.iron-girl.com/ Randy Lexvold Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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What we’re talking about with Judy Molnar, though, is a person who is making a living as some sort of fitness icon in the popular media. Until I saw the "ironman athlete" comment on the Irongirl page, my feelings about her were pretty neutral.  I saw merit to both sides of the argument. Yeah, I think what Ron was referring to was the "ironman athlete" comment on her Judy Molnar line of sportswear on the Irongirl web-site.  I doubt the claim originated with her, but without a doubt, she’s not apparently making much of an effort to correct any misconceptions that may arise.

Okay, last attemt at replying to this message… Where on the Iron Girl website (http://www.iron-girl.com/) does Judy or anyone else claim that she is an "ironman athlete"?!?  I can’t find it. Randy Lexvold Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Where on the iron-girl website do you see Judy or anyone else called her an "ironman athlete"?!?

Nowhere now, since they’ve pulled that phrase in the last few days (most likely due to it being discussed here). However, on 8/5, the following was cut and pasted from the site: "Judy Molnar the official coach of Rosie’s Chub Club and an Ironman athlete herself."

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Nowhere now, since they’ve pulled that phrase in the last few days (most likely due to it being discussed here). However, on 8/5, the following was cut and pasted from the site: "Judy Molnar the official coach of Rosie’s Chub Club and an Ironman athlete herself."

There goes my only reason to have a beef. Go, Judy, Go! In time, we all hope you’ll be able to proudly put that "ironman" title back on that web-page.

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Where on the iron-girl website do you see Judy or anyone else called her an "ironman athlete"?!? Nowhere now, since they’ve pulled that phrase in the last few days (most likely due to it being discussed here). However, on 8/5, the following was cut and pasted from the site: "Judy Molnar the official coach of Rosie’s Chub Club and an Ironman athlete herself."

Not to be picky or anything, but… Every four years there are Olympic athletes who fail to complete their particular event. They are still Olympic athletes. She trained for an Ironman, she participated in an Ironman. She’s an Ironman athlete. Yes, I know that someone might infer that she completed the IM, but that’s not what that statement says. Mike "OK, that WAS meant to be picky <g" Tennent "IronPenguin" Ironman Canada ‘98 16:17:03 Great Floridian ‘99, 15:??:??

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Not to be picky or anything, but… She trained for an Ironman, she participated in an Ironman. She’s an Ironman athlete. Yes, I know that someone might infer that she completed the IM, but that’s not what that statement says.

Mike, virtually everybody outside of the triathlon would infer this.  That’s because the statement IMPLIES this.  It’s a stretch and an attempt to be technically accurate, while being misleading and implying something that isn’t true. This is the sort of thing most people call shady and dishonest.  Ultimately, it will probably get you elected president of the US, but the rest of society tends to frown on it. I applaud Judy, or Irongirl Clothing, or whomever made the decision to stop saying it.  I find it likely that their conscience bothered them over this issue. If you had trained for your first triathlon and DNFed, would you call yourself a triathlete?  Probably not.  Would you try to mince words and call yourself a "triathlon athlete" so that folks would make an incorrect presumption and give you greater credit than you were probably due? Sorry, but that would really be pathetic.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also, I relate to the recent posts that note that hard work is not enough to finish high up in the field or in their AG….I have trained and competed in Triathlon for 14 years and I  usually rarely finish any higher than the top 15% of the field..this does not get me in the top 3 in the 40-44 male category..I’m currenly 5′ 10" and 169 lbs…..and as much as I I’ve had a difficult time improving my results the last 9 years…I trained an average of 10 hours/week since March to get ready for IMC but doubt if my VO2 max is over 50…I hope to finish….no amount of work will overcome genetics. I have friends who train similar hours at similar intensities and perform at levels that I can not touch…I love triathlon but it is tough to train hard and to always be the one applausing at the award ceremony for one of my friends..it aint about getting the hardware as much as its a recognition of my efforts. I do appreciate it when my more gifted friends acknowledge my efforts if not my results, which they have done at times…..from some of the comments on this NG I would suspect that others might look at my results and be thinking "Man, you just dont work hard enough…." Just because someone is behind you in a race does not mean they did not work harder or more consistently than you. Stephen Bullard Stephen; Your thoughts well said.  Good luck at IMC.

Kim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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she’s a symbol of having the courage to say, "To heck with what anybody thinks, or how out of place I look!  I’m going to go out there and pursue an active lifestyle, and take it as far as I can."

As I was reading this thread I recieved an email from a friend of mine who does not read this news group….I thought it would be an interest to this thread: "While waiting in the lobby for an hour to see the doc, I was inspired by an article in fitness swimmer magazine….I think my dream attempt at an Ironman is not that far away". One piece of evidence that Judy Molnar is inspiring others to think about giving it a try….. Also, I relate to the recent posts that note that hard work is not enough to finish high up in the field or in their AG….I have trained and competed in Triathlon for 14 years and I  usually rarely finish any higher than the top 15% of the field..this does not get me in the top 3 in the 40-44 male category..I’m currenly 5′ 10" and 169 lbs…..and as much as I I’ve had a difficult time improving my results the last 9 years…I trained an average of 10 hours/week since March to get ready for IMC but doubt if my VO2 max is over 50…I hope to finish….no amount of work will overcome genetics. I have friends who train similar hours at similar intensities and perform at levels that I can not touch…I love triathlon but it is tough to train hard and to always be the one applausing at the award ceremony for one of my friends..it aint about getting the hardware as much as its a recognition of my efforts. I do appreciate it when my more gifted friends acknowledge my efforts if not my results, which they have done at times…..from some of the comments on this NG I would suspect that others might look at my results and be thinking "Man, you just dont work hard enough…." Just because someone is behind you in a race does not mean they did not work harder or more consistently than you. Stephen Bullard

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Yes, I can see that my post was not as clear to others as it was to my little mind.  I need to learn how to better communicate, But,  please don’t put me in charge of the "English Class" just because I want to be literate. I do understand that we have differences in absolute ability.  Some of us are older than others and we can not control that.   When referring to HR I know that max is not something we have much control over.   I was referring to the statement made that indicated two people running at the same speed had significantly different HR’s.   I believe that two people of nearly the same age and max potential have different rates when running at the same speed mainly due to differences in physical conditioning.    I can run an eight minute mile at 135 BPM when in racing condition.   It will easily go to 160 attempting  to go the same speed when I have been sitting on my butt for a few months.   That is what I was comparing.   I, like you, really don’t care much about Judy except that I am against using something, IMH, that I love and have had respect for, as a means of personal gain that has not been earned.   Had Judy went out and qualified,  completed the race within allocated time, I would be behind her as much so as I am behind Lance Armstrong.   Yes. I know it is thought to be good marketing, etc. etc.   As I stated in one of my other posts,  it would have been good if she and others that do not have the ability would challenge an IM distance race other than IMH.    How many people get the opportunity to start at the top. Most of us work our way up by merit.   I don’t expect life to be fair, I am only expressing my personal feelings and ideals.    My comment about Welfare simply meant that anything other than competing in a qualifying event and winning a slot at IMH is something not earned and I associate it with accepting Welfare.   Yes, John Collins wanted ordinary people to be able to do IMH.   I think that all amateurs that do qualify are the ordinary people that he was talking about and I could be very wrong about that.   There are many other IM events that are basically, show and go events that anyone can do for the "personal satisfaction of going the distance".   It may not be a popular idea with some but is my ideal.    Many people in this RST are running their own business but I bet some that are supporting Judy’s venture do not practice what they are preaching by allowing those not properly educated nor with the mental capacity to manage and run the show.  Anyway, nuff on this tired subject.  Lets get back to helping people go out and get fit so that they may someday qualify.  That is a great deal more productive that picking on Judy’s quest and fame.    Qualifying is not easy, nor is it supposed to be.   It’s the hard part of IMH.  The race itself, is a piece of cake and you can eat your way to the finishline. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken, a person I respect much and with whom I disagree so rarely as to I think the use of this "genetically gifted" is just an excuse for not doing ones personal best.   The difference in our physical abilities is only slight but what we have done to ourselves to alter performance is where it is at.    I’m talking about normally healthy people and not those with some unfortunate and significant disability. Even HR is dictated by ones physical conditioning.   When out of shape it will go high under very low performance levels.   These levels are raised by having the time and desire to get fitter.   I would be willing to concede a couple percent in performance level to genetic differences but the remainder is in ones mental make-up.   It’s a matter of wanting to and then doing it. Hell, if I did not want to do Ironman,  you could not beat me with a stick hard enough to get me to do it.    When you want to do something bad enough you will develop the skill to pull it off.   I also admit that it is more than just miles of training.   You have to train correctly, then you will at least progress to near your limits which will be near those of others in your age.   That’s OK,  we each have our special interests in life.    I do not have any negative feeling or expectations for people that have a less intense interest in IM than myself.   It is the  "Welfare approach" that makes me cringe. I do not believe that a good Ironman performance is based solely on work. And you don’t believe that either, despite what you say. Are you saying that the only difference between you and Mark Allen is that he wants it more? I don’t think so. I’m not suggesting that we use genetics as an excuse, or as a reason to think of ourselves as victims. Quite the contrary. I’m saying that we should respect those who plow their own row, and not make assumptions about how tough their row is. I have little respect for those who refuse the plow in the first place. I weigh 200 pounds. I have a VO2 max of somewhere around 50 or a maybe a touch more. I spend as much time each week running as a fast runner who runs 50-plus miles a week. I just don’t cover as many miles. Eddy Merckx had a VO2max in the 80’s or 90’s, if I’m remembering correctly. I might be able to improve mine a little, and I can surely teach my body to make the best use of what I have, but there’s no way in the world I will every had a maximum oxygen uptake in the same range as the fast guys. I could train hard eight hours a day and not get close. And it applies in many other areas. For a time I wanted to be a first-class tuba player, and I practiced as much as players far better than me. I got as far as I could, and farther than I expected, but always felt like I was chasing my friends. I succeeded in reaching my potential, that’s all. Going farther required something I didn’t have. On the other hand, I might have scored better than many others on, say, the SAT, even though they worked harder at it and wanted it more. I don’t use genetic limitations as an excuse for not trying, and don’t want sympathy for myself or others. As Ron rightly points out, that would be patronizing. There is a flip side, though, and that is not to expect praise for genetic gifts. If we can’t blame them, then we surely cannot feel smug about them. And yet I take my ability to store knowledge entirely for granted, in a way that others must find tiresome. So this is a lecture to me as much as anybody else. I’m not defending Judy Molnar–I don’t really care about her, and that’s why I waited until now to jump in. But the debate exposed some beliefs that could easily be used against those more deserving of respect. I’m just making a plea for folks (especally myself) not to sit in judgement of others in whose shoes they have not walked. I probably overstated my case, as I usually do, and the points made today make a lot of sense. Rick "We are not created equal" Denney

Response:

Ken, a person I respect much and with whom I disagree so rarely as to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the use of this "genetically gifted" is just an excuse for not doing ones personal best.   The difference in our physical abilities is only slight but what we have done to ourselves to alter performance is where it is at.    I’m talking about normally healthy people and not those with some unfortunate and significant disability. Even HR is dictated by ones physical conditioning.   When out of shape it will go high under very low performance levels.   These levels are raised by having the time and desire to get fitter.   I would be willing to concede a couple percent in performance level to genetic differences but the remainder is in ones mental make-up.   It’s a matter of wanting to and then doing it. Hell, if I did not want to do Ironman,  you could not beat me with a stick hard enough to get me to do it.    When you want to do something bad enough you will develop the skill to pull it off.   I also admit that it is more than just miles of training.   You have to train correctly, then you will at least progress to near your limits which will be near those of others in your age.   That’s OK,  we each have our special interests in life.    I do not have any negative feeling or expectations for people that have a less intense interest in IM than myself.   It is the  "Welfare approach" that makes me cringe.

I do not believe that a good Ironman performance is based solely on work. And you don’t believe that either, despite what you say. Are you saying that the only difference between you and Mark Allen is that he wants it more? I don’t think so. I’m not suggesting that we use genetics as an excuse, or as a reason to think of ourselves as victims. Quite the contrary. I’m saying that we should respect those who plow their own row, and not make assumptions about how tough their row is. I have little respect for those who refuse the plow in the first place. I weigh 200 pounds. I have a VO2 max of somewhere around 50 or a maybe a touch more. I spend as much time each week running as a fast runner who runs 50-plus miles a week. I just don’t cover as many miles. Eddy Merckx had a VO2max in the 80’s or 90’s, if I’m remembering correctly. I might be able to improve mine a little, and I can surely teach my body to make the best use of what I have, but there’s no way in the world I will every had a maximum oxygen uptake in the same range as the fast guys. I could train hard eight hours a day and not get close. And it applies in many other areas. For a time I wanted to be a first-class tuba player, and I practiced as much as players far better than me. I got as far as I could, and farther than I expected, but always felt like I was chasing my friends. I succeeded in reaching my potential, that’s all. Going farther required something I didn’t have. On the other hand, I might have scored better than many others on, say, the SAT, even though they worked harder at it and wanted it more. I don’t use genetic limitations as an excuse for not trying, and don’t want sympathy for myself or others. As Ron rightly points out, that would be patronizing. There is a flip side, though, and that is not to expect praise for genetic gifts. If we can’t blame them, then we surely cannot feel smug about them. And yet I take my ability to store knowledge entirely for granted, in a way that others must find tiresome. So this is a lecture to me as much as anybody else. I’m not defending Judy Molnar–I don’t really care about her, and that’s why I waited until now to jump in. But the debate exposed some beliefs that could easily be used against those more deserving of respect. I’m just making a plea for folks (especally myself) not to sit in judgement of others in whose shoes they have not walked. I probably overstated my case, as I usually do, and the points made today make a lot of sense. Rick "We are not created equal" Denney

Response:

 I think the use of this "genetically gifted" is just an excuse for not doing ones personal best.   The difference in our physical abilities is only slight but what we have done to ourselves to alter performance is where it is at.    I’m talking about normally healthy people and not those with some unfortunate and significant disability. Even HR is dictated by ones physical conditioning.   When out of shape it will go high under very low performance levels.   These levels are raised by having the time and desire to get fitter.   I would be willing to concede a couple percent in performance level to genetic differences but the remainder is in ones mental make-up.   It’s a matter of wanting to and then doing it. Hell, if I did not want to do Ironman,  you could not beat me with a stick hard enough to get me to do it.    When you want to do something bad enough you will develop the skill to pull it off.   I also admit that it is more than just miles of training.   You have to train correctly, then you will at least progress to near your limits which will be near those of others in your age.   That’s OK,  we each have our special interests in life.    I do not have any negative feeling or expectations for people that have a less intense interest in IM than myself.   It is the  "Welfare approach" that makes me cringe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t trade in your genes. What you decide to do in spite of your genes, however, is a matter of personal choice. Some people are gifted athletes, and they can, say, go run a marathon with little or no training. They impress me. But I’m more impressed by the guy who has to work his butt off to overcome a lack of talent to do the deed anyway, even if it takes him five hours. He may not get my respect as a runner, but he definitely gets my respect as a human being. Rick, This reminds me of the end of a brick workout I did a couple of months ago. One of the very fastest local triathletes is also a wellness expert. Even at the age of 60 he is running 36 minute 10Ks and ALWAYS wins his AG. Anyway, we are out running after about 40 miles of riding in the hills and he pulls up along side of me and slows to my 10-11 minute pace. He is absolutely shocked to see that my heartrate was about 170 or so. There must be some problem. "Is it always that high?" he asked. Well yes, I’m not genetically gifted and would be thrilled to run a 10K under 50 minutes some day. He just didn’t get it because he knows how hard I train, I’m not overweight and have been at this for a while. So I agree, talented, skinny people just don’t get it but then again sometimes they don’t try. As for Judy, I haven’t chimed in though have read ALL of these threads. My attitude toward her is the same as anyone who just jumps into something like IM (or even a GCT for that matter). I think she is doing herself an injustice by not taking the time, putting in the miles that it takes to be as prepared as you can possibly be for the challenge. I finally did Gulf Coast in 1997, six years after my first triathlon and I worked my butt off to finish in the bottom 10% of the AG. I knew that I had done everything within my power to have a race I could be proud of and I appreciated the fact that some of my more talented friends were still at the finish line and cheered me on. I don’t think you can appreciate a race like IM on a whim. Experience is something you can only get with time and in MHO, she hasn’t paid her dues. Hey, I’m a sales chick (or booth babe as we call ourselves around trade show time) maybe I’m missing out on a way to make some real money. Wendy "it would definitely be more fun than accounting software!" in St. Pete Beach

Response:

I think the use of this "genetically gifted" is just an excuse for not doing ones personal best.   The difference in our physical abilities is only slight but what we have done to ourselves to alter performance is where it is at.    I’m talking about normally healthy people and not those with some unfortunate and significant disability.

Ken, I couldn’t possibly disagree more.  The vast majority of one’s potential is determined by genetics, alone.  Certainly, you’ve seen folks who put in the same effort and quantity of training, yet one of them is a 3:10 marathoner, and the other is a 3:50 marathoner. It’s a sad but true fact.  Even coaches are the first to admit that absolutely nothing can make up for a lack of innate talent. The best writeup on this is in Jack Daniels’ famous book on running.  He lists genetics as, by far, the #1 determinant of an athlete’s potential and success. Life isn’t fair.  We all do the best we can, but largely, our fate was determined before we ever laced up our first pair of trainers. Anectdotally, I think back to 8th grade when I ran track for the first time. Trust me, NOBODY who showed up on the first day had done one iota of off-season conditioning.  However, you had runners who could run a 55 second 440.  You had runners who could run a 60.  You had runners that took 70 or more seconds to do it. Granted, ALL of them could get better with training, but chances are that with comparable training, the 70 second 440 guy was going to still be comparably slower than the 55 second 440 guy. Sometimes it’s a bitch:  I’ll never be fast.  Sometimes you get a good bounce:  on my first 3 days of running after years of inactivity, I was able to run 3, 4 and 5 miles, respectively.  Still, you’re just trying to achieve potential within a framework that is entirely out of your control. Even HR is dictated by ones physical conditioning.

To a degree.  Max heart rate is relatively inflexible.  So is VO2 Max. You’re just born with it.  You can’t do much to change either one. When out of shape it will go high under very low performance levels.   These levels are raised by having the time and desire to get fitter.   I would be willing to concede a couple percent in performance level to genetic differences but the remainder is in ones mental make-up.

I’d be more likely to say that a few percentage points in your heart-rate may have come as a result of your training, but generally, it’s not something that’s likely to be greatly affected, unless one is terribly out of shape.  (And I don’t think many folks on this newsgroup, including the very, very new, would be considered terribly out of shape.) When you want to do something bad enough you will develop the skill to pull it off.

Sure, sure, sure.  However, that doesn’t mean that you’ll run a 9 hour ironman, regardless of whatever training methods you employ.  (By "you", I mean "people in general".  For all I know, you, personally, Ken, CAN run a 9 hour ironman.) It is the  "Welfare approach" that makes me cringe.

If what you mean by that is that we should not let our physical limitations discourage us, I agree 100%.  However, that’s a far cry from saying that genetics don’t have a heck of a lot to do with it.  I don’t think folks should use it as an excuse or as a crutch, but it can be just as discouraging to downplay this variable when you have, for instance, a very hard-working ironman triathlete who will never break, say, 12:30.

Response:

Rick, I absolutely *do* have compulsions of my own, and am dealing w/ an addiction (which I won’t go into here). My point is that I don’t expect anyone to applaud me for my ‘courage’ in overcoming something that I shouldn’t have succumbed to in the first place; in fact I find it embarassing and patronizing when it happens. It’s part of the overall trend of lowering the expectations for american society, where you can be lauded for having once been a fuckup and having finally stopped being one, whereas someone who’s been responsible all along gets no recognition or credit for it. I’m *not* trying to say that Judy or anyone who has a weight problem, genetic or otherwise, is somehow less mature than someone who does not; in fact I find it patronizing to applaud someone for behaving in a mature and responsible fashion. It’s as if society expects less of compulsive eaters (or drinkers, or smokers, or drug users) and sees it as out of the norm when someone realizes the ultimate consequences of their behavior and takes steps to correct it. I think America is ill-served by the victim mentality that it’s fallen prey to via pop-psychobabble and talk-show prurience. We would do far, far better to show compassion for others’ foibles and the root causes of those foibles, while not allowing those root causes to excuse those foibles. I freely admit, Rick, that I’m one of those fortunate people whose metabolism is always on the redline, and I don’t have to worry too much about what I eat going directly to my waistline. But I feel this way about *any* compulsive behavior. If there’s any group that I’m overly biased about, it’s probably smokers, but that’s another rant (and I’m a lot less bitter now that CA has outlawed smoking in bars and nightclubs, where I spend a significant amount of my time playing music) Long story short, I have nothing but respect for people like you and Tricia, who (by your own admissions) have been less fortunate in the metabolism dept than I – but then you’re not asking for special applause for the fact that you compete in tris. My only exposure to Ms Molnar is thru these recent threads and the sites referenced, and based upon what I’ve read, I’ll respect her more once she’s *earned* the right to call herself an ‘Ironman Triathlete’. — TriathRon                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_ `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / (ASCII art blatantly plagiarized from TriBaby’s sig . . . )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In my experience, skinny folks rarely understand not-so-skinny folks. It’s not that they don’t want to, it’s just that they operate under a wrong assumption. They believe that Big Macs are the cause. snip< I think the difference, for me, is that Judy, by her own admission, began exercising and doing the ‘right’ thing after seeing her dr’s notes indicating she was ‘morbidly obese’. Maybe I’m a naif, or biased, but I don’t believe that someone gets to be ‘morbidly obese’ by genetic lottery. I *do* believe that there’s a lot larger range of healthy somatypes than the media and society would have us believe (and god I wish I coulda convinced my ex-girlfriend who was obsessed with her weight when she looked *great*), but I don’t necessarily find myself jumping on the bandwagon to congratulate someone for their ‘courage’ in correcting a problem that they got themself into to begin with. Say, Ron, have you every been fat? If not, then I respectfully invite you to walk in those shoes. Alcoholics also "got themselves into it" but that doesn’t lessen my respect for them when they get sober. Never underestimate the power of compulsion. Just because you are not compulsive in the way someone else is doesn’t mean you don’t have compulsions of your own. Some peoples’ compulsions land them face down in the gutter, others are invisible to the outside world. For example, there are some people participating in this forum today that are compulsive about Internet newsgroups. (Ahem!) Some folks train for triathlon so compulsively that they let everything else in their lives go to hell because of it. (Ahem, ahem!) Some folks are compulsive spenders–you can tell by how many bikes they have in their basement. (There must be a frog in my throat.) Some compulsions violate societal expectations in ways that are disproportionate to the problem. When I was fat, that was held against me in ways I didn’t even fathom until I lost the weight. The person who overeats cannot "go sober." They still have to eat. Don’t understimate what it takes. (Note to me: And don’t stand in judgement of someone else’s compulsion until you are quite sure you have none of your own.) N, you don’t get morbidly obese because of genetics. But I know morbidly obese people who eat no more irresponsibly that others that I know that are skinny. I think it’s great that Judy’s gotten into triathlon. I think it’s great that *I’ve* gotten into triathlon; it’s changed my life in profound ways in just the few months that I’ve been involved with it. But neither my nor her achievement is any greater or worth any more recognition than the achievements of all of those in this ng or outside it who ever swam, biked, and ran *all* the way to the finish. I think that’s the key here – in triathlon, we’re all in it to finish. Claiming the moniker of triathlete without finishing is like, oh, I dunno, allowing drafting and calling it triathlon . . . oh, waitaminnit . . . Oh, hell, she’s a triathlete. She’s raced, and she’s finished. She’s just not an "Ironman." Not yet. Be careful of extrapolation. Rick "I have to tell myself this stuff every day" Denney

Response:

In my experience, skinny folks rarely understand not-so-skinny folks. It’s not that they don’t want to, it’s just that they operate under a wrong assumption. They believe that Big Macs are the cause. snip<

I think the difference, for me, is that Judy, by her own admission, began exercising and doing the ‘right’ thing after seeing her dr’s notes indicating she was ‘morbidly obese’. Maybe I’m a naif, or biased, but I don’t believe that someone gets to be ‘morbidly obese’ by genetic lottery. I *do* believe that there’s a lot larger range of healthy somatypes than the media and society would have us believe (and god I wish I coulda convinced my ex-girlfriend who was obsessed with her weight when she looked *great*), but I don’t necessarily find myself jumping on the bandwagon to congratulate someone for their ‘courage’ in correcting a problem that they got themself into to begin with. I think it’s great that Judy’s gotten into triathlon. I think it’s great that *I’ve* gotten into triathlon; it’s changed my life in profound ways in just the few months that I’ve been involved with it. But neither my nor her achievement is any greater or worth any more recognition than the achievements of all of those in this ng or outside it who ever swam, biked, and ran *all* the way to the finish. I think that’s the key here – in triathlon, we’re all in it to finish. Claiming the moniker of triathlete without finishing is like, oh, I dunno, allowing drafting and calling it triathlon . . . oh, waitaminnit . . .

Response:

Some compulsions violate societal expectations in ways that are disproportionate to the problem. When I was fat, that was held against me in ways I didn’t even fathom until I lost the weight. The person who overeats cannot "go sober." They still have to eat. Don’t understimate what it takes. (Note to me: And don’t stand in judgement of someone else’s compulsion until you are quite sure you have none of your own.)

Rick, lord knows I respect your opinion.  Your advice to me on bike-wheels alone is enough that I’m forever in your debt.  However, Ron was just re-iterating something that (I believe) Judy herself, admitted:  that she got to her morbidly obese point by eating junk food.  Implicit in her human interest segments is that she really let herself go, health-wise, beyond what you find in a person who’s eating reasonably and gaining weight nonetheless. You’re certainly right.  As a former heavyweight, and still occassional binge eater, I agree that it’s tragic that these are not only common traits among people, but that the stigma and punishment for these very human behaviors is greatly disproportionate to the "crime".  It is even worse when, we all know, there are folks who, through no virtue of their own, can eat like pigs without having to deal with obesity.  Nobody’s arguing that obese people should be looked down on, or that they deserve no credit for improving their situation. What we’re talking about with Judy Molnar, though, is a person who is making a living as some sort of fitness icon in the popular media.  Until I saw the "ironman athlete" comment on the Irongirl page, my feelings about her were pretty neutral.  I saw merit to both sides of the argument. In some ways, I think it’s sort of silly that she’s chosen to make such a spectacle of herself.  On the other hand, she has a message to send, "If I can do it, you can do it, too."  Apparently, some people find her to be inspirational, and that’s probably all she needs to keep doing her work. However, her detractors have reasonable arguments, as well. Claiming the moniker of triathlete without finishing is like, oh, I dunno, allowing drafting and calling it triathlon . . . oh, waitaminnit . . . Oh, hell, she’s a triathlete. She’s raced, and she’s finished. She’s just not an "Ironman." Not yet. Be careful of extrapolation.

Yeah, I think what Ron was referring to was the "ironman athlete" comment on her Judy Molnar line of sportswear on the Irongirl web-site.  I doubt the claim originated with her, but without a doubt, she’s not apparently making much of an effort to correct any misconceptions that may arise.

Response:

I really do hope she finishes this year so all this talk will go away, but we all have a story and the only person that it should matter to is ourselves. I don’t like the way NBC handles IMH at all, actually it sucks IMHO. They try to appeal to the couch potato at home and make it so damn dramatic. They never once mention that there are other Ironman races around the world. I remember from last year’s broadcast there was a comment like "Jurgen Zack has done the Ironman 10 times and the marathon always kills him." They never once mentioned his success at other races. I wish there were two broadcasts, one for the folks who know nothing about the sport and think we are all just nuts, and one for those of us who follow the sport and might like a less circus appeal to it. Just my .02 worth. Marcus

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In my experience, skinny folks rarely understand not-so-skinny folks. It’s not that they don’t want to, it’s just that they operate under a wrong assumption. They believe that Big Macs are the cause. snip< I think the difference, for me, is that Judy, by her own admission, began exercising and doing the ‘right’ thing after seeing her dr’s notes indicating she was ‘morbidly obese’. Maybe I’m a naif, or biased, but I don’t believe that someone gets to be ‘morbidly obese’ by genetic lottery. I *do* believe that there’s a lot larger range of healthy somatypes than the media and society would have us believe (and god I wish I coulda convinced my ex-girlfriend who was obsessed with her weight when she looked *great*), but I don’t necessarily find myself jumping on the bandwagon to congratulate someone for their ‘courage’ in correcting a problem that they got themself into to begin with.

Say, Ron, have you every been fat? If not, then I respectfully invite you to walk in those shoes. Alcoholics also "got themselves into it" but that doesn’t lessen my respect for them when they get sober. Never underestimate the power of compulsion. Just because you are not compulsive in the way someone else is doesn’t mean you don’t have compulsions of your own. Some peoples’ compulsions land them face down in the gutter, others are invisible to the outside world. For example, there are some people participating in this forum today that are compulsive about Internet newsgroups. (Ahem!) Some folks train for triathlon so compulsively that they let everything else in their lives go to hell because of it. (Ahem, ahem!) Some folks are compulsive spenders–you can tell by how many bikes they have in their basement. (There must be a frog in my throat.) Some compulsions violate societal expectations in ways that are disproportionate to the problem. When I was fat, that was held against me in ways I didn’t even fathom until I lost the weight. The person who overeats cannot "go sober." They still have to eat. Don’t understimate what it takes. (Note to me: And don’t stand in judgement of someone else’s compulsion until you are quite sure you have none of your own.) N, you don’t get morbidly obese because of genetics. But I know morbidly obese people who eat no more irresponsibly that others that I know that are skinny. I think it’s great that Judy’s gotten into triathlon. I think it’s great that *I’ve* gotten into triathlon; it’s changed my life in profound ways in just the few months that I’ve been involved with it. But neither my nor her achievement is any greater or worth any more recognition than the achievements of all of those in this ng or outside it who ever swam, biked, and ran *all* the way to the finish. I think that’s the key here – in triathlon, we’re all in it to finish. Claiming the moniker of triathlete without finishing is like, oh, I dunno, allowing drafting and calling it triathlon . . . oh, waitaminnit . . .

Oh, hell, she’s a triathlete. She’s raced, and she’s finished. She’s just not an "Ironman." Not yet. Be careful of extrapolation. Rick "I have to tell myself this stuff every day" Denney

Response:

You can’t trade in your genes. What you decide to do in spite of your genes, however, is a matter of personal choice. Some people are gifted athletes, and they can, say, go run a marathon with little or no training. They impress me. But I’m more impressed by the guy who has to work his butt off to overcome a lack of talent to do the deed anyway, even if it takes him five hours. He may not get my respect as a runner, but he definitely gets my respect as a human being.

Rick, This reminds me of the end of a brick workout I did a couple of months ago. One of the very fastest local triathletes is also a wellness expert. Even at the age of 60 he is running 36 minute 10Ks and ALWAYS wins his AG. Anyway, we are out running after about 40 miles of riding in the hills and he pulls up along side of me and slows to my 10-11 minute pace. He is absolutely shocked to see that my heartrate was about 170 or so. There must be some problem. "Is it always that high?" he asked. Well yes, I’m not genetically gifted and would be thrilled to run a 10K under 50 minutes some day. He just didn’t get it because he knows how hard I train, I’m not overweight and have been at this for a while. So I agree, talented, skinny people just don’t get it but then again sometimes they don’t try. As for Judy, I haven’t chimed in though have read ALL of these threads. My attitude toward her is the same as anyone who just jumps into something like IM (or even a GCT for that matter). I think she is doing herself an injustice by not taking the time, putting in the miles that it takes to be as prepared as you can possibly be for the challenge. I finally did Gulf Coast in 1997, six years after my first triathlon and I worked my butt off to finish in the bottom 10% of the AG. I knew that I had done everything within my power to have a race I could be proud of and I appreciated the fact that some of my more talented friends were still at the finish line and cheered me on. I don’t think you can appreciate a race like IM on a whim. Experience is something you can only get with time and in MHO, she hasn’t paid her dues. Hey, I’m a sales chick (or booth babe as we call ourselves around trade show time) maybe I’m missing out on a way to make some real money. Wendy "it would definitely be more fun than accounting software!" in St. Pete Beach

Response:

Tricia~ that was a well thought out post and quite true, I believe.  As I said in an earlier post, until I saw her, I never thought a triathlon was something I could attempt, let alone accomplish.   I felt the same paranoia on race day.  I kept looking around for another woman who was even near my size!!  I kept wishing that I could have got in at Danskin!!  =)  The more fit I become though, the less I think that will bother me.  Even at what I foresee as my peak fitness, I will still be an Athena. But, the first attempt at a triathlon, the first attempt at any type of race like this AND, being seen with more than 12 or 15% bodyfat.  Running around in a swimsuit in front of hundreds….that was almost as anxiety-ridden as the race itself!  So, I understand you, my sister!!  ;)   I don’t care if Judy finishes an IM.  I hope she does.  She tried.  And, just because she was a DNF doesn’t wipe out her other physical accomplishments. Because I saw her story, I believed that I could.  And, I did.  Now, her path is up to her, just as mine is up to me.   Thanks for listening. Laura O.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nice way to look at this situation. The fact is that there is a big market out ther for big boned women and that’s who they are trying to tap into with Molnar. It’s great that she is going out there and not leting a bunch of self righteous anexorics tell her she has no business doing a triathlon. But they probably also would have told her she had no business going into McDonalds to order a double Big Mac when she was on one of her eating binges.  The fact is that many people  looked at Molnar before Ironman Hawaii and thought "no way in hell she is going to complete this race."  Sadly, those people were right. Hopefully, she can prove them wrong this time around.

In my experience, skinny folks rarely understand not-so-skinny folks. It’s not that they don’t want to, it’s just that they operate under a wrong assumption. They believe that Big Macs are the cause. Some of the least-disciplined eaters I’ve ever seen are skinny folks. Their bodies just metabolize the stuff without packing it on. They have good genes, and I’m happy for them. But they have a hard time not taking their good parentage for granted. It’s easy for them to think that they are doing it all right–eating the right foods, exercising enough, and so on. They don’t see me out there on the trail, running close to my limit, because they pass me so quickly that I don’t make much of an impression. They don’t notice me down in the slow lane at the pool, unless they get a mouth full of water because of my bow wave. (They do, however, really enjoy that prodigious draft as they suck my wheels on the bike, but that’s another story). They look at me and think, "He would run faster if he lost that extra 15 pounds around his middle." And try as they might, they can’t quite get the "Tsk, tsk" out of that thought. You can’t trade in your genes. What you decide to do in spite of your genes, however, is a matter of personal choice. Some people are gifted athletes, and they can, say, go run a marathon with little or no training. They impress me. But I’m more impressed by the guy who has to work his butt off to overcome a lack of talent to do the deed anyway, even if it takes him five hours. He may not get my respect as a runner, but he definitely gets my respect as a human being. What’s my point? It’s a big world, and triathlon is about personal goals and achievement. We should never underestimate the difficulty that some people overcome to finish an Ironman in 16 hours and 57 minutes. Compared to their potential, they may have accomplished more than the leaders. If we learn to respect that person, then what about the person who just misses? Perhaps their potential is just a wee bit lower. Does that mean they deserve less respect? Going back to IMH, let’s say there are three ways to get into the race: 1. Qualifying. 2. Lottery. 3. Being famous. Remember that the WTC is a for-profit corporation, not a charity. If giving someone who is famous a bye into the race is commercially favorable, then it’s only good business for them to do it. Their commercial success is the foundation of Ironman racing–without it, and this whole discussion is in a vacuum. Rick "Everyone follows their own road. Who’s road is best? I don’t know" Denney

Response:

Nice way to look at this situation. binges.  The fact is that many people  looked at Molnar before Ironman Hawaii and thought "no way in hell she is going to complete this race."  Sadly, those people were right. Hopefully, she can prove them wrong this time around.

I hope she does not feel that she has to prove herself to anyone but herself.  Yes her goal is to finish the Ironman before midnight but even if she misses this mark I bet she has taken a lot away from the experience – sometimes that is the "ends" she was looking for. Regards, Carlos Torres de Navarra Coral Gables, Fl Kona 98 Floridian 96, 99 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Nice way to look at this situation.

The fact is that there is a big market out ther for big boned women and that’s who they are trying to tap into with Molnar. It’s great that she is going out there and not leting a bunch of self righteous anexorics tell her she has no business doing a triathlon. But they probably also would have told her she had no business going into McDonalds to order a double Big Mac when she was on one of her eating binges.  The fact is that many people  looked at Molnar before Ironman Hawaii and thought "no way in hell she is going to complete this race."  Sadly, those people were right. Hopefully, she can prove them wrong this time around.

Response:

Tricia,    I think the answer is to truly, TRULY, not care what other people may think. Consider it a goal to do a triathlon without giving thought to the concerns in your posting.                                                       Paul Kramer

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ignoring the whole IMH issue per se: It’s not uncommon at the big races for me to experience the occasional twinge of  "Oh, my god, what am I doing here??"  The reason for this is I’m a big girl.  I’m not saying that I’m huge—I’ll get yelled at, so I’m not saying that.  But I’m a hair shy of six feet, and weigh quite a lot— well into the Clydesdale category.  There aren’t a whole lot of gals my size out there. The women Clydesdale division is usually pretty sparse (11 girls at the 1/2-Vineman was a big field), and even among the Clydes I’ve got a good number of pounds on several of them.  I stick out just a bit. I met Judy Molnar at Vineman.  I am not even in her league.  She is a tall, big girl, taller than I, and clearly quite a bit heavier.  If *I* sometimes feel out of place at tris, I can imagine how she must feel. At races the caliber of, say, Wildflower or Vineman, overwhelmingly fit fields are the norm.  And Ironman Canada and Hawaii?  Oh, my god. Talk about feeling bulky and big and lumbering. The point I’m trying to make is that it takes a lot of courage for someone so clearly not of the common triathlete mold to say, "To hell with what other people may think!  Who cares if I stick out like a sore thumb? I’m here to try."  It takes guts for a really big human to step out amongst the superfit in a triathlon and not be self-conscious while running around in lycra all day.  Those people are bloody intimidating, with their svelte figures and speedy splits. Oh, yeah, I can hear some folks snorting and saying, "Big deal!  That doesn’t take guts—who cares what anybody thinks or says?"  Well, you just try being 80 or 100 pounds overweight and racing at a big IM Qualifier.  Then you’ll know what it means to be self-conscious. I think that is part of the reason Judy is garnering so much attention. For the unfit out there, she’s a symbol of having the courage to say, "To heck with what anybody thinks, or how out of place I look!  I’m going to go out there and pursue an active lifestyle, and take it as far as I can."  I think *that’s* the message and inspiration she brings to a lot of really overweight folks out there, regardless of her performance at IMH. So, perhaps as an Ironman triathlete she’s a failure, but as a role model for the unfit masses she ain’t bad.  Yes, she’ll be more effective if/when she finishes Ironman, but in the meantime, I think it’s her courage to try in the face of a society that heaps such contempt upon the grossly overweight that means a lot to such folks. FWIW. — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html

I feel ill, excuse me while I puke!   I wish I could be nice like you Tricia.  Nice way to look at this situation. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Ignoring the whole IMH issue per se: It’s not uncommon at the big races for me to experience the occasional twinge of  "Oh, my god, what am I doing here??"  The reason for this is I’m a big girl.  I’m not saying that I’m huge—I’ll get yelled at, so I’m not saying that.  But I’m a hair shy of six feet, and weigh quite a lot— well into the Clydesdale category.  There aren’t a whole lot of gals my size out there. The women Clydesdale division is usually pretty sparse (11 girls at the 1/2-Vineman was a big field), and even among the Clydes I’ve got a good number of pounds on several of them.  I stick out just a bit. I met Judy Molnar at Vineman.  I am not even in her league.  She is a tall, big girl, taller than I, and clearly quite a bit heavier.  If *I* sometimes feel out of place at tris, I can imagine how she must feel. At races the caliber of, say, Wildflower or Vineman, overwhelmingly fit fields are the norm.  And Ironman Canada and Hawaii?  Oh, my god.  Talk about feeling bulky and big and lumbering. The point I’m trying to make is that it takes a lot of courage for someone so clearly not of the common triathlete mold to say, "To hell with what other people may think!  Who cares if I stick out like a sore thumb?  I’m here to try."  It takes guts for a really big human to step out amongst the superfit in a triathlon and not be self-conscious while running around in lycra all day.  Those people are bloody intimidating, with their svelte figures and speedy splits. Oh, yeah, I can hear some folks snorting and saying, "Big deal!  That doesn’t take guts—who cares what anybody thinks or says?"  Well, you just try being 80 or 100 pounds overweight and racing at a big IM Qualifier.  Then you’ll know what it means to be self-conscious. I think that is part of the reason Judy is garnering so much attention. For the unfit out there, she’s a symbol of having the courage to say, "To heck with what anybody thinks, or how out of place I look!  I’m going to go out there and pursue an active lifestyle, and take it as far as I can."  I think *that’s* the message and inspiration she brings to a lot of really overweight folks out there, regardless of her performance at IMH. So, perhaps as an Ironman triathlete she’s a failure, but as a role model for the unfit masses she ain’t bad.  Yes, she’ll be more effective if/when she finishes Ironman, but in the meantime, I think it’s her courage to try in the face of a society that heaps such contempt upon the grossly overweight that means a lot to such folks. FWIW. — Tri-Baby                                      _                                   –    o      ’             –  __o       –    </_  `     ‘         –    <         – __/    /o_         – (()) (())        -  / "Real triathletes don’t draft." http://www.stanford.edu/~brooksie *New to triathlon?  Check out Hulaman’s Simple TriTips:  http://www.hulaman.com/triathlon/tritips.html    

Response:

Question:

  Some silliness as I learn Perl.  Below is a listing of posting frequency for approximately 3/27 to 4/2 (the period on my news server’s log when I grabbed files) which included 665 posts.  In a different group I read there are statistics galore (how often the posts are original, size of postings, degree of ‘me-too-ism’ in posts, etc.)  That doesn’t seem warranted here but speak up if you’re interested.   The top 10 posters (of 321 different posters) accounted for 118 of the 665 posts, or about 18%.  This is much lower than in many groups I read (where it is more like 2% of posters accounting for 30% of articles). +200 posts from people who only posted once — Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

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Concentrate. Post, big guy, post. Hold your form. Find those calf injury posts. Answer them twice. You can do it.

And don’t forget to answer you own posts.    -Phil

Response:

  Some silliness as I learn Perl.  Below is a listing of posting frequency for approximately 3/27 to 4/2 (the period on my news server’s log when I grabbed files) which included 665 posts.  

Grrmph, not listed, vacation from 3/27 to 4/12 without any PC or workstation. But really good. Trainingscamp on Texel (Isle of Netherland, with very good running underground, 28km beach, behind the beach a fir-forest). Made 190km the first week, and just 160km the last week, because of a little cold. Run two 10km at 95%racetime in 33:40 and 33:30. Never ever felt so good the last two years. Ratzfatz

Response:

 Some silliness as I learn Perl.  Below is a listing of posting frequency for approximately 3/27 to 4/2 (the period on my news server’s log when I grabbed files) which included 665 posts.  In a different group I read there are statistics galore (how often the posts are original, size of postings, degree of ‘me-too-ism’ in posts, etc.)  That doesn’t seem warranted here but speak up if you’re interested.  The top 10 posters (of 321 different posters) accounted for 118 of the 665 posts, or about 18%.  This is much lower than in many groups I read (where it is more like 2% of posters accounting for 30% of articles).

D*mn, only second. <Chants to himself Concentrate. Post, big guy, post. Hold your form. Find those calf injury posts. Answer them twice. You can do it. Mike "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can…" Tennent "IronPenguin" ‘98 Ironman Canada, 16:17:03

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Question:

QuickBooks Pro 99 will let you export any QuickBooks report to an Excel Spreadsheet with one click on a button labeled Excel on the report screen. From there you can use the Excel Save As command to save the file as a comma delimited text file (*.csv). — Richard W. Vaccaro, CPA http://www.baranskyvaccaro.com

Can anyone tell me if Quickbooks will allow a client of ours to export transaction details into a text or comma delimited file format so that we can import it into a real accounting system? Thanks. Bob Rollar infosoft

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Can anyone tell me if Quickbooks will allow a client of ours to export = transaction details into a text or comma delimited file format so that = we can import it into a real accounting system?

One of the print options in all QB programs is to print to a text or tab delineated or comma delineated file. KLGott Get Hot Water Fast with the new Chilipepper appliance www.chilipepperapp.com

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Question:

^ ^ ^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^from leaving.   ^ ^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^ ^Yes.  Obviously.   ^ ^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^opportunities here. ^ ^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^ ^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent "free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^ ^William R. James ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^Adam Levenstein ^Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club ^ ^http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ ^ ^"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul ^can always depend upon the support of Paul." ^                - George Bernard Shaw ^

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ^ ^ ^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^from leaving.   ^ ^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^ ^Yes.  Obviously.   ^ ^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^opportunities here. ^ ^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^ ^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent "free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work.

And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be treatment available. William R. James

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Just a couple of questions Mr William R James (by the way does anyone know what are the origins of this pompous American practice of including your middle initial in your name?)

Perhaps sometimes pompous, but in part understandable, and not just American either. A friend of mine called Leif Nilsson (a pretty common name in Sweden) for instance used to write "Leif G. N" before changing it altogether. "William James" probably is a rather common name too, in the US. So you can’t really criticize the "R" in this case. In your other arguments – rethorical questions – you’re quite right, of course, Claude. Rolf M. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Were the pilgrim fathers legal aliens? Did the native Americans invite the European settlers to invade their country and wipe them out? Were the African slaves legal immigrants? Did they want to come here? Isn’t it faintly ridiculous for a country which is composed of 95% immigrants to be getting up tight about immigration? Isn’t it a bit rich for a country that was built on the invasion, pillage and murder of the indigeneous poplutaion, on the illegal abduction and enslavement of Africans and the countless expansionary wars and invasions of other countries on the American continent to be concerned about ‘legality’!! Claude D. Paris

Response:

Just a couple of questions Mr William R James (by the way does anyone know what are the origins of this pompous American practice of including your middle initial in your name?) Were the pilgrim fathers legal aliens? Did the native Americans invite the European settlers to invade their country and wipe them out? Were the African slaves legal immigrants? Did they want to come here? Isn’t it faintly ridiculous for a country which is composed of 95% immigrants to be getting up tight about immigration? Isn’t it a bit rich for a country that was built on the invasion, pillage and murder of the indigeneous poplutaion, on the illegal abduction and enslavement of Africans and the countless expansionary wars and invasions of other countries on the American continent to be concerned about ‘legality’!! Claude D. Paris

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^^^from leaving.   ^^^^ ^^^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^^^ ^^^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^^^ ^^^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^^^opportunities here. ^^^^ ^^^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^^^ ^^^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^^^ ^^^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^^^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^^^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^^^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^^^ ^^^ ^^^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^^^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^^^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^^^treatment available. ^^ ^^Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal ^^with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium ^^asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of ^^it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. ^^Nice try, though. ^^^ ^^^William R. James ^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^You lack of logic is quite predictable.   If you look at the nation as ^^a body then an invading virus working it is not dependent upon the ^^choices of an individual cell to allow or disallow hosting of said ^^invader. ^ ^You mean employers are forced to hire them? They have no choice? You ^are an idiot. ^ ^Even an idiot could easily see the point.  Guess that puts you in ^another catagory altogether. Brilliant comeback! I haven’t been so verbally defeated since kindergarten when I was told, "I know you are, but what am I!" ^ ^^ ^^Perhaps parasite would be an easier concept for you to grasp. ^ ^Perhaps working productively for pay is parasitism. You are an idiot. ^Perhaps the concept "working productively" is too difficult for you to ^grasp. ^ ^Sure.  You actually believe they work, pay taxes, start businesses, ^vote, learn english, and otherwise participare in society??? Nahhh, they don’t work — they just come here for vacation — try doing the jobs they do, then tell me it ain’t work. Why don’t you ask the good little citizens who hire them if they’re getting their money’s worth — they keep inviting them back. All those illegal aliens skiing at Tahoe! As for paying taxes, they pay as much or as little as any American who works off the books — which is something that happens more often than someone like yourself with his head up his ass could ever know. Do you call them "parasites" as well? Most Americans don’t "start businesses" either, so what’s your point? MAny illegals do pick up English as they go along, like any other immigrant. Some more, some less. So what? What has that got to do with "parasitism?"

If you bothered to look around with your eyes opened or opened up a newspaper once in a while you would see the results of these "hard working" criminal invaders coming here just to squat and drop a new welfare recipient on American soil.  It obvious you don’t live and have never visited the south west.  Can you even identify California on a map?  I seriously doubt it. As for the work they do, it just so happens I have done it. I’ve worked farm labor in my youth, picking just about any crop you can imagine.  What have you done?  Watched a movie about it or something? ^ What a ^laugh! Keep chuckling while you eat those cheap farm products, made possible via immigrant (often "illegal") labor.

Keep digging.  It’s only yourself you are making a fool of.  It’s a pretty good bet that I haven’t eaten a thing picked by a single one of them in years.  Kimberly can verify that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -^ ^^ ^^No nation can survive that cannot or will not secure it’s borders. ^^That’s simply the way it is.  When someone comes here illegally, their ^^first act is to clearly demonstrate a total disrespect for our laws. ^^They ARE criminals, and should be treated as such.  They want jobs? ^^Fine. Let them work on roads in chains for 5 years prior to ^^deportation every time they are caught. ^^That might make them decide ^^that US laws are to be respected. ^^ ^ ^I see — let’s make slaves out of people who wish to work productively ^because there are no jobs where they come from? Why — not, according ^to your "logic," because they help lower wage rates in this country ^(as do their employers), but because it shows "disrespect for our ^laws." And of course, you don’t have the brains or the balls to answer ^the part of my statement that refers to their employers. You are, as I ^said before, a diseased piece of work. Thank you for proving my point. ^ ^So if a street vendor is selling stolen property, you think that’s ^working for a living too?  They are criminals who have committed a ^criminal act by invading.  It’s a really easy thing to understand if ^you just try a little. What a brilliant analogy! A street vendor selling stolen property! Just what property was stolen by crossing a line in the dirt called a border, you ignoramus? All the illegal immigrant brings over is his ability to work, which he possessed before he crossed the border. You truly are clueless.

Since you apparently never paid any taxes it must be difficult for you to imagine the problem.  Ask your mommy to explain it to you.  :) Thank you for not answering the questions I asked about the employers of such people — I said you didn’t have the brains or the balls to answer it. Thank you for proving my point — again.

It’s not even relevant.   The people that hire them are similar to the people that dump trash in the alleys.  They both attract vermin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -^ ^^I can’t believe you are that incapable of understanding the problem. ^^So I have to assume you are simply trolling. ^ ^You’re the one whose trolling. Look at the newsgroup headers on your ^post — all ngs with a left wing slant. So you put up right-wing ^propaganda in left-wing newsgroups for what purpose, pray tell? I ^don’t mind right-wingers doing so , it’s their right. But I know a ^fool when I see one, and will take advantage of him every time. Learn ^how to argue before you play this game. ^ ^Look longer in th mirror and practice. OOOOHHH, brilliant riposte! Stung by your rapier wit! Why, I haven’t heard or read such a brilliant line since "i’m rubber, you’re glue.."! A hint — when you can’t think up a good insult, try, "Oh yeah, oh yeah! Is that so?"

With you it’s too easy to bother anything else.  :)  One must speak simple language to the simple minded.  Apparently I haven’t kept it simple enough.  :) ^  You might get it someday but ^your not even close yet. The only "it" I could get from discussing anything with you is a good healthy guffaw.

It’s your fantasy.  Make it up as you wish. ^  Discussions are not limited to only those ^who agree with the initial post. Please point out where I indicated that I believed that they were, and show your "logic." If you try take your head out of your ass, you might realize — in addition to the fact that that the smell of your shit is unpleasant — that it becomes easier to read that way. You might then lip-read a little, and find that I said the exacat opposite in the post you are attepting to answer.

Ahh!  Profanity!  The final course of action for the frustated and defeated.  You are really predictable! ^Unlike you, I am offering information and reason. Yes, how "informative" and "reasonable" — you have "informed" us that illegal aliens aren’t really here to work, "reasoned" that they are "parasites," etc.  You really are a trivial piece of work, as well as a despicable one.

If you paid taxes you wouldn’t have to ask. ^ All you want to do is whine about someone not ^going along with your foolishness. Demonstrate this alleged "whining." I haven’t even "complained" about your presence — I merely noted it’s utter worthlessness. BTW, if I am a "troll," hasn’t it occured to you that you’ve given me what I want? (–:

Yes, I did give you what you wanted.  And you were even silly enough to come back for more!  Has it occured to you that I actually enjoy picking on the clueless?  :) William R. James

Response:

^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^^^from leaving.   ^^^^ ^^^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^^^ ^^^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^^^ ^^^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^^^opportunities here. ^^^^ ^^^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^^^ ^^^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^^^ ^^^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^^^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^^^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^^^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^^^ ^^^ ^^^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^^^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^^^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^^^treatment available. ^^ ^^Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal ^^with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium ^^asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of ^^it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. ^^Nice try, though. ^^^ ^^^William R. James ^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^You lack of logic is quite predictable.   If you look at the nation as ^^a body then an invading virus working it is not dependent upon the ^^choices of an individual cell to allow or disallow hosting of said ^^invader. ^ ^You mean employers are forced to hire them? They have no choice? You ^are an idiot. ^ ^Even an idiot could easily see the point.  Guess that puts you in ^another catagory altogether. Brilliant comeback! I haven’t been so verbally defeated since kindergarten when I was told, "I know you are, but what am I!" ^ ^^ ^^Perhaps parasite would be an easier concept for you to grasp. ^ ^Perhaps working productively for pay is parasitism. You are an idiot. ^Perhaps the concept "working productively" is too difficult for you to ^grasp. ^ ^Sure.  You actually believe they work, pay taxes, start businesses, ^vote, learn english, and otherwise participare in society??? Nahhh, they don’t work — they just come here for vacation — try doing the jobs they do, then tell me it ain’t work. Why don’t you ask the good little citizens who hire them if they’re getting their money’s worth — they keep inviting them back. All those illegal aliens skiing at Tahoe! As for paying taxes, they pay as much or as little as any American who works off the books — which is something that happens more often than someone like yourself with his head up his ass could ever know. Do you call them "parasites" as well? Most Americans don’t "start businesses" either, so what’s your point? MAny illegals do pick up English as they go along, like any other immigrant. Some more, some less. So what? What has that got to do with "parasitism?" ^ What a ^laugh! Keep chuckling while you eat those cheap farm products, made possible via immigrant (often "illegal") labor. ^ ^^ ^^No nation can survive that cannot or will not secure it’s borders. ^^That’s simply the way it is.  When someone comes here illegally, their ^^first act is to clearly demonstrate a total disrespect for our laws. ^^They ARE criminals, and should be treated as such.  They want jobs? ^^Fine. Let them work on roads in chains for 5 years prior to ^^deportation every time they are caught. ^^That might make them decide ^^that US laws are to be respected. ^^ ^ ^I see — let’s make slaves out of people who wish to work productively ^because there are no jobs where they come from? Why — not, according ^to your "logic," because they help lower wage rates in this country ^(as do their employers), but because it shows "disrespect for our ^laws." And of course, you don’t have the brains or the balls to answer ^the part of my statement that refers to their employers. You are, as I ^said before, a diseased piece of work. Thank you for proving my point. ^ ^So if a street vendor is selling stolen property, you think that’s ^working for a living too?  They are criminals who have committed a ^criminal act by invading.  It’s a really easy thing to understand if ^you just try a little. What a brilliant analogy! A street vendor selling stolen property! Just what property was stolen by crossing a line in the dirt called a border, you ignoramus? All the illegal immigrant brings over is his ability to work, which he possessed before he crossed the border. You truly are clueless. Thank you for not answering the questions I asked about the employers of such people — I said you didn’t have the brains or the balls to answer it. Thank you for proving my point — again. ^ ^^I can’t believe you are that incapable of understanding the problem. ^^So I have to assume you are simply trolling. ^ ^You’re the one whose trolling. Look at the newsgroup headers on your ^post — all ngs with a left wing slant. So you put up right-wing ^propaganda in left-wing newsgroups for what purpose, pray tell? I ^don’t mind right-wingers doing so , it’s their right. But I know a ^fool when I see one, and will take advantage of him every time. Learn ^how to argue before you play this game. ^ ^Look longer in th mirror and practice. OOOOHHH, brilliant riposte! Stung by your rapier wit! Why, I haven’t heard or read such a brilliant line since "i’m rubber, you’re glue.."! A hint — when you can’t think up a good insult, try, "Oh yeah, oh yeah! Is that so?" ^  You might get it someday but ^your not even close yet. The only "it" I could get from discussing anything with you is a good healthy guffaw. ^  Discussions are not limited to only those ^who agree with the initial post. Please point out where I indicated that I believed that they were, and show your "logic." If you try take your head out of your ass, you might realize — in addition to the fact that that the smell of your shit is unpleasant — that it becomes easier to read that way. You might then lip-read a little, and find that I said the exacat opposite in the post you are attepting to answer. ^Unlike you, I am offering information and reason. Yes, how "informative" and "reasonable" — you have "informed" us that illegal aliens aren’t really here to work, "reasoned" that they are "parasites," etc.  You really are a trivial piece of work, as well as a despicable one. ^ All you want to do is whine about someone not ^going along with your foolishness. Demonstrate this alleged "whining." I haven’t even "complained" about your presence — I merely noted it’s utter worthlessness. BTW, if I am a "troll," hasn’t it occured to you that you’ve given me what I want? (–: ^ ^William R. James ^

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^^from leaving.   ^^^ ^^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^^ ^^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^^ ^^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^^opportunities here. ^^^ ^^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^^ ^^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^^ ^^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^^ ^^ ^^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^^treatment available. ^ ^Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal ^with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium ^asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of ^it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. ^Nice try, though. ^^ ^^William R. James ^^ ^ ^ ^You lack of logic is quite predictable.   If you look at the nation as ^a body then an invading virus working it is not dependent upon the ^choices of an individual cell to allow or disallow hosting of said ^invader. You mean employers are forced to hire them? They have no choice? You are an idiot.

Even an idiot could easily see the point.  Guess that puts you in another catagory altogether. ^ ^Perhaps parasite would be an easier concept for you to grasp. Perhaps working productively for pay is parasitism. You are an idiot. Perhaps the concept "working productively" is too difficult for you to grasp.

Sure.  You actually believe they work, pay taxes, start businesses, vote, learn english, and otherwise participare in society??? What a laugh! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -^ ^No nation can survive that cannot or will not secure it’s borders. ^That’s simply the way it is.  When someone comes here illegally, their ^first act is to clearly demonstrate a total disrespect for our laws. ^They ARE criminals, and should be treated as such.  They want jobs? ^Fine. Let them work on roads in chains for 5 years prior to ^deportation every time they are caught. ^That might make them decide ^that US laws are to be respected. ^ I see — let’s make slaves out of people who wish to work productively because there are no jobs where they come from? Why — not, according to your "logic," because they help lower wage rates in this country (as do their employers), but because it shows "disrespect for our laws." And of course, you don’t have the brains or the balls to answer the part of my statement that refers to their employers. You are, as I said before, a diseased piece of work. Thank you for proving my point.

So if a street vendor is selling stolen property, you think that’s working for a living too?  They are criminals who have committed a criminal act by invading.  It’s a really easy thing to understand if you just try a little. ^I can’t believe you are that incapable of understanding the problem. ^So I have to assume you are simply trolling. You’re the one whose trolling. Look at the newsgroup headers on your post — all ngs with a left wing slant. So you put up right-wing propaganda in left-wing newsgroups for what purpose, pray tell? I don’t mind right-wingers doing so , it’s their right. But I know a fool when I see one, and will take advantage of him every time. Learn how to argue before you play this game.

Look longer in th mirror and practice.  You might get it someday but your not even close yet.  Discussions are not limited to only those who agree with the initial post.  Unlike you, I am offering information and reason.  All you want to do is whine about someone not going along with your foolishness. William R. James

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^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^^from leaving.   ^^^ ^^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^^ ^^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^^ ^^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^^opportunities here. ^^^ ^^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^^ ^^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^^ ^^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^^ ^^ ^^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^^treatment available. ^ ^Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal ^with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium ^asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of ^it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. ^Nice try, though. ^^ ^^William R. James ^^ ^ ^ ^You lack of logic is quite predictable.   If you look at the nation as ^a body then an invading virus working it is not dependent upon the ^choices of an individual cell to allow or disallow hosting of said ^invader. You mean employers are forced to hire them? They have no choice? You are an idiot. ^ ^Perhaps parasite would be an easier concept for you to grasp. Perhaps working productively for pay is parasitism. You are an idiot. Perhaps the concept "working productively" is too difficult for you to grasp. ^ ^No nation can survive that cannot or will not secure it’s borders. ^That’s simply the way it is.  When someone comes here illegally, their ^first act is to clearly demonstrate a total disrespect for our laws. ^They ARE criminals, and should be treated as such.  They want jobs? ^Fine. Let them work on roads in chains for 5 years prior to ^deportation every time they are caught. ^That might make them decide ^that US laws are to be respected. ^ I see — let’s make slaves out of people who wish to work productively because there are no jobs where they come from? Why — not, according to your "logic," because they help lower wage rates in this country (as do their employers), but because it shows "disrespect for our laws." And of course, you don’t have the brains or the balls to answer the part of my statement that refers to their employers. You are, as I said before, a diseased piece of work. Thank you for proving my point. ^I can’t believe you are that incapable of understanding the problem. ^So I have to assume you are simply trolling. You’re the one whose trolling. Look at the newsgroup headers on your post — all ngs with a left wing slant. So you put up right-wing propaganda in left-wing newsgroups for what purpose, pray tell? I don’t mind right-wingers doing so , it’s their right. But I know a fool when I see one, and will take advantage of him every time. Learn how to argue before you play this game. ^ ^William R. James ^

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^from leaving.   ^^ ^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^ ^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^ ^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^opportunities here. ^^ ^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^ ^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^ ^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^ ^ ^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^treatment available. Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. Nice try, though. ^ ^William R. James ^

You lack of logic is quite predictable.   If you look at the nation as a body then an invading virus working it is not dependent upon the choices of an individual cell to allow or disallow hosting of said invader. Perhaps parasite would be an easier concept for you to grasp. No nation can survive that cannot or will not secure it’s borders. That’s simply the way it is.  When someone comes here illegally, their first act is to clearly demonstrate a total disrespect for our laws. They ARE criminals, and should be treated as such.  They want jobs? Fine. Let them work on roads in chains for 5 years prior to deportation every time they are caught.  That might make them decide that US laws are to be respected. I can’t believe you are that incapable of understanding the problem. So I have to assume you are simply trolling. William R. James

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^ ^ ^^ ^^ ^^I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people ^^from leaving.   ^^ ^^True, they can always to try walk to New York City. ^^ ^^Yes.  Obviously.   ^^ ^^People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even ^^speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the ^^opportunities here. ^^ ^^Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." ^^ ^^I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders ^^starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. ^ ^Yes, what a novel approach to "invasion" — no military, no weapons, ^just cross the border and look for a job. Such clever "criminals," ^aren’t they? And the people who hire them — what are they? Innocent ^"free-marketeers," I suppose? You really are a diseased piece of work. ^ ^ ^And just what weapons are used by the various virii and bacteria that ^often invade the human body?  You brought up disease!  :)  To bad your ^cluelessness is a condition.  If it were a disease there might be ^treatment available. Yes — and you would be the first subject of medical research to deal with that condition. When was the last time a virus or bacterium asked for a job in the human body?  Or asked permission of one of it’s cells to work productively for it? What a stupid analogy. Nice try, though. ^ ^William R. James ^

Response:

Well it’s nice to see you again too. I didn’t notice the groups until you mentioned that.  You’re right. I may have started a war in several countries just by replying.  :) William R. James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So there you are at last.  I had begun to wonder if something may have happened to you.  Almost kind of missed you just a bit. Looks like an interesting bunch of ng’s this message is crossed to.  Bet they all love you a bunch.  You should come back over to thebird’s and give some balance to what is said.  You and I haven’t went off on a long thread in quite some time and I am sure we both have it in us to do. There are plenty of jobs in this country for anyone who’s willing to work.  Anyone who says they can’t find a job is a liar.  A job they are willing to take, perhaps.  But that’s a different story. Well, this is not necessarily true. Take the case of Chester, PA. Chester is a common sight in much of Pennsylvania, and Appalachia in general. There are hundreds of small towns built around a certain mill, mine, or factory. When these close down, the town’s unemployment rate shoots sky-high. These folks can’t find a job in their town, and can’t afford to move elsewhere. Therefore, they’re screwed. And not necessarily liars, either. Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                - George Bernard Shaw I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people from leaving. People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the opportunities here. William R. James

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I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people from leaving.  

True, they can always to try walk to New York City. People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the opportunities here.

Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens." Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                 – George Bernard Shaw

Response:

I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people from leaving.   True, they can always to try walk to New York City.

Yes.  Obviously.   People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the opportunities here. Before they’re deported as "illegal aliens."

I was refering to the legal ones.  I really don’t care in invaders starve or suffer.  In fact if they suffered more they might go home. William R. James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                - George Bernard Shaw

Response:

So there you are at last.  I had begun to wonder if something may have happened to you.  Almost kind of missed you just a bit. Looks like an interesting bunch of ng’s this message is crossed to.  Bet they all love you a bunch.  You should come back over to thebird’s and give some balance to what is said.  You and I haven’t went off on a long thread in quite some time and I am sure we both have it in us to do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are plenty of jobs in this country for anyone who’s willing to work.  Anyone who says they can’t find a job is a liar.  A job they are willing to take, perhaps.  But that’s a different story. Well, this is not necessarily true. Take the case of Chester, PA. Chester is a common sight in much of Pennsylvania, and Appalachia in general. There are hundreds of small towns built around a certain mill, mine, or factory. When these close down, the town’s unemployment rate shoots sky-high. These folks can’t find a job in their town, and can’t afford to move elsewhere. Therefore, they’re screwed. And not necessarily liars, either. Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                - George Bernard Shaw I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people from leaving. People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the opportunities here. William R. James

– Dana Phillips For the story of one family’s fight against a power mad DCS worker and other inept and corrupt people within the system. Web Page:  http://members.tripod.com/LiberalMinded/index.html News Group for Pro se and those looking to find out more about the law. "In my life, I have prayed but one prayer: ‘Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.’ And God granted it." — Voltaire "The only two things that are infinite in size are the universe and human stupidity. And I’m not completely sure about the universe." — Albert Einstein

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PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC If I went to work and found myself locked out I would go work elsewhere.  What’s the problem? William R. James

Which ivory tower do you live in?  As if it is so easy to just walk into another job – actually it may be easy for ivory tower dwellers like yourself, with your networks of fellow extra terrestrials, but for normal working class people very often losing their job means poverty, despair, breaking up of their families and worse.  There is a long and complicated word we have on our planet.  That is UNEMPLOYMENT.  That means that there are many millions of people around the world, even in the USA, who simply cannot find a job because there aren’t any to be found, because their previous bosses made them redundant and closed down the factory or office or whatever.  The reason why these "troublesome" workers form unions and go on strike is because they are fighting for their very livelihoods – if they sit back and do nothing they will end up with virtually no money and starving (if the reports I have read are true, then the level of poverty and malnutrition is disgracefully high in the USA).  You smug "academics" with your comforting but gibberish theories about the benevolence of capitalism are an insult to the millions of people who work to create the wealth of society but still have to constantly fight to get even a tiny share of that wealth.  F**k off! Ben Neal

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC If I went to work and found myself locked out I would go work elsewhere.  What’s the problem? William R. James Which ivory tower do you live in?  As if it is so easy to just walk into another job – actually it may be easy for ivory tower dwellers like yourself, with your networks of fellow extra terrestrials, but for normal working class people very often losing their job means poverty, despair, breaking up of their families and worse.  There is a long and complicated word we have on our planet.  That is UNEMPLOYMENT.  That means that there are many millions of people around the world, even in the USA, who simply cannot find a job because there aren’t any to be found, because their previous bosses made them redundant and closed down the factory or office or whatever.  The reason why these "troublesome" workers form unions and go on strike is because they are fighting for their very livelihoods – if they sit back and do nothing they will end up with virtually no money and starving (if the reports I have read are true, then the level of poverty and malnutrition is disgracefully high in the USA).  You smug "academics" with your comforting but gibberish theories about the benevolence of capitalism are an insult to the millions of people who work to create the wealth of society but still have to constantly fight to get even a tiny share of that wealth.  F**k off! Ben Neal

Well Ben, I’ve never lived in any tower, nor on another planet. However I would be willing to bet that I lost more jobs befor I hit 25 years old than you will have in your entire lifetime. Yet I’ve never been unemployed for more than a few days, even when I had no skills I had no trouble finding work.   People form unions because they think they can extort more money from a company.  If their labor had more value they could simply sell it at a higher price.  If they can’t find a buyer at the price they set then they are setting a price beyound it’s value.  That should tell you something. There are plenty of jobs in this country for anyone who’s willing to work.  Anyone who says they can’t find a job is a liar.  A job they are willing to take, perhaps.  But that’s a different story. Perhaps you should consider the livelyhoods of the people that risk everything, put up with red tape and work 16 hour days and 7 day work weeks starting and building a business.  After all it’s their money. It’s their investment.  Unlike the employee, they can’t walk away. William R. James

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are plenty of jobs in this country for anyone who’s willing to work.  Anyone who says they can’t find a job is a liar.  A job they are willing to take, perhaps.  But that’s a different story. Well, this is not necessarily true. Take the case of Chester, PA. Chester is a common sight in much of Pennsylvania, and Appalachia in general. There are hundreds of small towns built around a certain mill, mine, or factory. When these close down, the town’s unemployment rate shoots sky-high. These folks can’t find a job in their town, and can’t afford to move elsewhere. Therefore, they’re screwed. And not necessarily liars, either. Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                - George Bernard Shaw

I was not aware that those towns have guarded walls preventing people from leaving.   People comr to this country every day with nothing.  Some can’t even speak english. I have yet to meet one who isn’t aware of the opportunities here. William R. James

Response:

There are plenty of jobs in this country for anyone who’s willing to work.  Anyone who says they can’t find a job is a liar.  A job they are willing to take, perhaps.  But that’s a different story.

Well, this is not necessarily true. Take the case of Chester, PA. Chester is a common sight in much of Pennsylvania, and Appalachia in general. There are hundreds of small towns built around a certain mill, mine, or factory. When these close down, the town’s unemployment rate shoots sky-high. These folks can’t find a job in their town, and can’t afford to move elsewhere. Therefore, they’re screwed. And not necessarily liars, either. Adam Levenstein Vice President, PSU Skeptics Club http://www.clubs.psu.edu/skeptics/ "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul."                 – George Bernard Shaw

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Commies have one passion:  lying.

To others and to themselves. H. W. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution they should be given every opportunity to practice their talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest work for the people.

Uhm… re-education farms?  You’ve got to be kidding. Socialism’s cool and all, but we don’t need any more of that gulag bullshit.

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^                                                           ^                                                                     ^PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC ^ """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" ^Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such ^experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution ^they should be given every opportunity to practice their ^talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling ^of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first ^time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest ^work for the people. ^ ^I just got this message below and folks should check it out, ^we ought to hookup with these striking workers and ^co-ordinate our efforts. ^ ^And when you go to work tomorrow, for the next week, bring up ^the show and tell your workmates the true deal, and just why ^it is that the owners of ABC, these trillionaire leeches ^wanted this version of Mumia’s case to go out, they’ve ^declared all-out war on us and we better get into a fighting ^back mood really soon, like yesterday for instance, or Mumia’s ^fate awaits all working people! ^Should you feel it necessary to protest ABC (You bet we do!-Jay) ^ABC, be aware that they are currently being picketed nationwide by the ^members of Nabet/CWA for unfairly locking out over 2,600 employees. ^Feel free to contact local 16 at the URL below for more information, ^you maybe able to coordinate protest efforts with them to make things ^workout better for everyone involved: ^ ^http://www.nabet16.org/ ^WORKERS OF ALL COUNTRIES UNITE! LIBERATE MUMIA AND OURSELVES! ^ ^FOLKS, hook up with our fellow workers at that above URL, ^all these huge rallys and demos for Mumia in other countries ^people report on, well you know what?  A lot of these so-called ^"…News Services" are leaving out some very important facts, ^that these huge rallies and demos are often taking place at ^FACTORIES, and the huge crowds are made up of WORKERS, and ^UNIONIZED ones too! Such as? Were they made up of workers at the factory in question? Were the union workers at the demo organized by their unions (or leftist caucuses within them), or are they isolated individuals? ^  The reason some of these "co-respondents" ^of these one man News Agencys neglect to tell you this is ^up to you to figure, but my guess is that someone does not ^want to see the same phenonemon occuring here in the USA, ^they want to see the same old faces, the professional ^activists at the same old places, demos at Universities, ^where workers are for the most part unfamiliar with the ^set-up of these mazes.  Universities are set up for the ^very best "maze-runners" who are after that bit of prime ^cheddar cheese at the end of the maze.  These demos are ^rarely over 100 people if even that and as mentioned, it’s ^the usual suspects over and over again.  If people are ^serious about saving the life of Mumia, you are going ^to have to stop sneering when someone mentions the word ^"worker".  Workers are the finest people on the earth. Is this a genetic or cultural quality? ^They going to save Mumia’s life and will save all life ^on this planet eventually.   ^ ^Coalitions are going to have to start having demos, ^coalition meetings, rallys, etc, in places where ^the workers can find them.  Recently I mentioned an ^RCP controlled "coalition" here (the one that said ^they refused to work with me because of political differences). ^well, their coalition is at a student center smack in the ^middle of wayne state university.  The meetings are at ^night, and you have to park blocks away, even if you are ^familiar with the parking there, like a student would be. ^Can you imagine a working woman, parking blocks away, ^going around asking strangers (in a really bad hood, too) ^where the student center bldg. is at night? Yes, I could, if she were really interested in the cause. If she was afraid of the ‘hood, she could always bring some friends. She might even live in that ‘hood. ^  Universities are infamous for rapists and once we even had to cancel ^Pam Africa’s speaking engagement there because of the threat ^of a setup and an insane rapist of men and women. A setup by whom? One bisexual rapist!? Even assuming this is true, you couldn’t provide security against one bisexual rapist? Such brave radicals you are! ^Of course there are some men or women who would be intimidated ^by going to a University which they’ve never been allowed to ^attend in their lives because of poverty, children, etc.  It ^is an easy matter to set up meeting places in places that are ^easily accessable and found. Yes — working people are such shy, retiring, shrinking violets, aren’t they? They’re truly intimidated by pencil-necked university denizens such as yourself! And we know, of course, that workers are too stupid to negotiate their way around "mazes" such as university campuses, and that brave, dedicated radicals such as yourself need to go out and lead them by their quaking hands onto those terrifying, mysterious citadels of intellectualism! ^(The University was difficult for handicapped persons too) Yes, I remember — I saw a whole caravan of "differently-abled" activists limping, lurching, and wheeling away from the rally site in disgust because there was no ramp onto the campus quad. They were shouting, "If we have to walk, you can keep your revolution!" and "Gimps of the world, unite!" I also saw a "Christian socialist" preacher attempt to heal them, but they indignantly refused to have faith in a "God" who would allow them to suffer such indignities as being unable to attend the rally. ^Why have the meetings, film showings, speakers, demos there? ^The only answer is they don’t want no-one to attend except ^the same small handfull of easily contained activists, ^anarchists, paper sellers, etc.  They want this thing under ^control, and not let the workers in their millions become ^involved. Or maybe they understand that no one else is all that interested? ^ You may have been in coalitions before where ^a certain clique of folk flip out if you even want to ^put the word "worker" in a flyer. Yes — and instead of whining, I wrote my own fucking leaflet with the name of a group that didn’t mind the word "worker" endorsing it. ^  If you are in a good ^working class organization, please write and let others ^know of your work, no matter which country you work in. ^ ^Jay Miles for Millions for Mumia March Committee/Detroit ^phone: (313) 730-5213 ^Contact info temporary for now. ^-30- ^– ^    _  __|__ __| __|  _    | ^    |  | _|    |  (    (   | |/ | ^Stop Imperialism from Murdering Mumia! ^ A word of advice to you: If you wish to help out the striking workers at ABC, you would be better off not linking their cause with that of Mumia Abu-Jamal, as there is no concrete link. You would do better to get in contact with the NABET union, and with the other unions at ABC and convince them that their interests lie in honoring the picket lines. Needless to say, honoring the picket line is in their interests, regardless of their opinion of the Mumia case, and regardless of whether or not Mumia lives or dies. Personally, I’d like to see Mumia get out alive, but I’d much rarher see a major multinational corporation like Disney/ABC defeated in a strike by its own workers. It’s a question of priorities — forgive the cold calculus involved. But if you’re really interested in helping the human species, then you would understand that the life of one intellectual is nothing compared to maintaining and expanding the power of actual working class organizations vis a vis the actual capitalists. I’m not saying you can’t do both, just that you can’t let one interfere with the other, or place the two causes on an equal footing. Forgive the harshness of my analysis, but it’s time the hide-bound, college hot house left realized that it’s time to get back to basics — trade unionism, tenant organizing,  etc. — and stop deluding themselves about why they are powerless. Until you do, why should the working class care about your pet causes? From what do you intend to draw strength — the organized workers, or the cold comfort of having "the right line" and the blood of a martyr? Your choice. Of course, if this was just a pitch for Mumia, using the coincidence of the strike and a piece of journalism you didn’t like, then stay on campus — it’s where you belong.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution they should be given every opportunity to practice their talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest work for the people. I just got this message below and folks should check it out, we ought to hookup with these striking workers and co-ordinate our efforts. And when you go to work tomorrow, for the next week, bring up the show and tell your workmates the true deal, and just why it is that the owners of ABC, these trillionaire leeches wanted this version of Mumia’s case to go out, they’ve declared all-out war on us and we better get into a fighting back mood really soon, like yesterday for instance, or Mumia’s fate awaits all working people! Should you feel it necessary to protest ABC (You bet we do!-Jay) ABC, be aware that they are currently being picketed nationwide by the members of Nabet/CWA for unfairly locking out over 2,600 employees. Feel free to contact local 16 at the URL below for more information, you maybe able to coordinate protest efforts with them to make things workout better for everyone involved:

If I went to work and found myself locked out I would go work elsewhere.  What’s the problem? William R. James

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution they should be given every opportunity to practice their talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest work for the people.

Sam Donaldson and ABC’s 20/20 had the balls to put the story straight concerning the murder of Officer Danny Faulkner by Mumia abu Jamal. Now if the commonwealth of PA would just get on with it and execute him as the jury deceed…..

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PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC  """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution they should be given every opportunity to practice their talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest work for the people. I just got this message below and folks should check it out, we ought to hookup with these striking workers and co-ordinate our efforts. And when you go to work tomorrow, for the next week, bring up the show and tell your workmates the true deal, and just why it is that the owners of ABC, these trillionaire leeches wanted this version of Mumia’s case to go out, they’ve declared all-out war on us and we better get into a fighting back mood really soon, like yesterday for instance, or Mumia’s fate awaits all working people! Should you feel it necessary to protest ABC (You bet we do!-Jay) ABC, be aware that they are currently being picketed nationwide by the members of Nabet/CWA for unfairly locking out over 2,600 employees. Feel free to contact local 16 at the URL below for more information, you maybe able to coordinate protest efforts with them to make things workout better for everyone involved: http://www.nabet16.org/ WORKERS OF ALL COUNTRIES UNITE! LIBERATE MUMIA AND OURSELVES! FOLKS, hook up with our fellow workers at that above URL, all these huge rallys and demos for Mumia in other countries people report on, well you know what?  A lot of these so-called "…News Services" are leaving out some very important facts, that these huge rallies and demos are often taking place at FACTORIES, and the huge crowds are made up of WORKERS, and UNIONIZED ones too!  The reason some of these "co-respondents" of these one man News Agencys neglect to tell you this is up to you to figure, but my guess is that someone does not want to see the same phenonemon occuring here in the USA, they want to see the same old faces, the professional activists at the same old places, demos at Universities, where workers are for the most part unfamiliar with the set-up of these mazes.  Universities are set up for the very best "maze-runners" who are after that bit of prime cheddar cheese at the end of the maze.  These demos are rarely over 100 people if even that and as mentioned, it’s the usual suspects over and over again.  If people are serious about saving the life of Mumia, you are going to have to stop sneering when someone mentions the word "worker".  Workers are the finest people on the earth. They going to save Mumia’s life and will save all life on this planet eventually.   Coalitions are going to have to start having demos, coalition meetings, rallys, etc, in places where the workers can find them.  Recently I mentioned an RCP controlled "coalition" here (the one that said they refused to work with me because of political differences). well, their coalition is at a student center smack in the middle of wayne state university.  The meetings are at night, and you have to park blocks away, even if you are familiar with the parking there, like a student would be. Can you imagine a working woman, parking blocks away, going around asking strangers (in a really bad hood, too) where the student center bldg. is at night?  Universities are infamous for rapists and once we even had to cancel Pam Africa’s speaking engagement there because of the threat of a setup and an insane rapist of men and women. Of course there are some men or women who would be intimidated by going to a University which they’ve never been allowed to attend in their lives because of poverty, children, etc.  It is an easy matter to set up meeting places in places that are easily accessable and found. (The University was difficult for handicapped persons too) Why have the meetings, film showings, speakers, demos there? The only answer is they don’t want no-one to attend except the same small handfull of easily contained activists, anarchists, paper sellers, etc.  They want this thing under control, and not let the workers in their millions become involved.  You may have been in coalitions before where a certain clique of folk flip out if you even want to put the word "worker" in a flyer.  If you are in a good working class organization, please write and let others know of your work, no matter which country you work in. Jay Miles for Millions for Mumia March Committee/Detroit phone: (313) 730-5213 Contact info temporary for now. -30- —     _  __|__ __| __|  _    |     |  | _|    |  (    (   | |/ | Stop Imperialism from Murdering Mumia!

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There’s nothing like an honest accounting of the truth vis-a-vis Mumia to enrage a commie scumbag. The 20/20 on Mumia should be a cold splash of water to wake up anyone still deluded by the wacko left. Commies have one passion:  lying. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PROTEST FOR MUMIA WITH THE LOCKED OUT WORKERS AT ABC  """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Sam Donaldson and the rest of the scabs at ABC are such experts at shoveling out bullshit, after the revolution they should be given every opportunity to practice their talents performing useful labor doing productive shoveling of the real item on re-education farms.  It will be the first time in some of their lives they have ever done any honest work for the people. I just got this message below and folks should check it out, we ought to hookup with these striking workers and co-ordinate our efforts. And when you go to work tomorrow, for the next week, bring up the show and tell your workmates the true deal, and just why it is that the owners of ABC, these trillionaire leeches wanted this version of Mumia’s case to go out, they’ve declared all-out war on us and we better get into a fighting back mood really soon, like yesterday for instance, or Mumia’s fate awaits all working people!

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Question:

Note from Hammell: Following my comments is the latest in a series of very alarming press releases which consumers of dietary supplements and herbs, all over the world should be aware of. Tony Martinez just forwarded this to me. PharmaPrint Inc. is very bad news. They intend to drive natural herbs out of the marketplace to clear the way for themselves to make huge profits by selling patented analogs, as is already happening in Europe. They intend to sell their patented so called "BioPrinting" process to other pharmaceutical firms. Please do not be complacent about this. We must all fight back! Note what is said here (towards end of article below) "PharmaPrint is the only developer and manufacturer of patented pharmaceutical versions of multimolecule herbal medicines. Management expects to introduce a succession of new pharmaceuticals  originating from widely demanded, but scientifically UNTESTED and UNREGULATED herbal products." (my emphasis, these herbs have only been used by millions of people for thousands of years and these greed driven people have the colossal gall to call them "untested"???) The so called "Commission on Dietary Supplement Labels" (created when DSHEA was gutted by Waxman) is currently considering creating a separate regulatory category for herbals and botanicals. (p.3 of the official minutes from the Commission on Dietary Supplement Labels, Meeting #5, September 19-20, 1996, Sheraton Hotel, Reston VA. If this new category is created, it would create a very slippery slope for all other dietary supplements. Given the overt WHO backing of PharmaPrint Inc.,this is clearly a Codex harmonization effort. PharmaPrint announced in an earlier press release (PR Newswire, Dec.4, 1996 "New Technology, Global Initiative to Bring Herbal Medicines into Modern Medical Science Announced by World Health Organization Today) that they have the complete backing of WHO in their efforts to create patentable analog products from the world’s most popular herbs. Is this good for consumers? The FDC Tan Sheets (Dec.2, ‘96) stated that PharmaPrint has entered into a joint venture with University of Miami to patent an analog of saw palmetto berry extract (which according to them, "consumers are currently using on an unregulated basis".) They want to put their patented version through controlled clinical trials. After they spend the money to do this, you can be sure they will seek to protect their investment and will do everything in their power to sweep the natural product off the shelves. The latest PharmaPrint press release follows, and the best way to strike back is to use the attached file or download my Codex Report from Bonn from http://www.lef.org and forward it to more people so we can build the coalition necessary to fight back. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -PharmaPrint names former Regency Health CFO  Jim Wodach chief financial officer    Business Editors    IRVINE, Calif.–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Dec. 18, 1996–PharmaPrint Inc. (NASDAQ:PPRT) Wednesday announced the appointment of well-known  industry financial executive James R. Wodach as senior vice  president and chief financial officer as part of the company’s stated plans to expand management in key areas.      President and Chief Executive Officer Elliot Friedman said:   "Jim adds a new dimension to our management team.  He has tremendous  experience working with high-growth companies, and we intend to use  his experience as we execute our expected licensing of the  PharmaPrinting technology to other pharmaceutical companies.      "Just as important, Jim has a distinguished track record in  financial management, not only in drug discovery but also health  service operations, adding a unique, broad perspective to our  strategic planning and financial systems."      Wodach was formerly director of finance of Paragon Biomedical  Inc., a company that provides contract research services for the  pharmaceutical and biotechnology industries.  Prior to Paragon,    Wodach served in various capacities, including senior vice president  finance and chief financial officer for Regency Health Services  Inc., a New York Stock Exchange company.      Wodach, a certified public accountant, has 12 years of experience  in the health-care industry.      PharmaPrint is the only developer and manufacturer of patented pharmaceutical versions of multimolecule herbal medicines.   Management expects to introduce a succession of new pharmaceuticals  originating from widely demanded, but scientifically untested and  unregulated herbal products.      The company also markets its PharmaPrinting technology to other pharmaceutical companies.  PharmaPrinting was developed over the  course of 20 years at the University of Southern California, which  still owns an interest in the company.      For more information on PharmaPrint Inc. via facsimile at no cost,  simply call 800/PRO-INFO and dial client code 285.      –30–RJ/la*  RPL/la    CONTACT:  PharmaPrint Inc., Irvine              James Burgess, 714/224-2555                 or              Financial Relations Board, Los Angeles              Moira Conlon, 310/442-0599 (investor/analyst contact)              Steven Seiler, 310/442-0599 (media)    KEYWORD:  CALIFORNIA    INDUSTRY KEYWORD:  PHARMACEUTICAL BIOTECHNOLOGY MANAGEMENT CHANGES MEDICINE Copyright 1996 Business Wire. All rights reserved.

John Hammell, Political Coordinator,Life Extension Foundation            Please Snowball My Codex Report From Bonn                 Download from http://www.lef.org       Join Us To DEFEND Health Freedom INTERNATIONALLY!!!

Response:

Hammell) writes: They intend to drive natural herbs out of the marketplace to clear the way for themselves to make huge profits by selling patented analogs, as is already happening in Europe. They intend to sell their patented so called "BioPrinting" process to other pharmaceutical firms. Please do not be complacent about this. We must all fight back!

This information re Codex has been discussed for some time in myAR/ vegetarian list. I saw the national news a while back where this anaolg and patenting process was announced with great glee, like they had discovered a cure for AIDS. As one who is never ceased to be amazed at the stupidity and gullibility of most ppl, I have every reason to believe that this could happen. As usual, the bottom line is $$ not health. Next think ya know, they’ll be telling us we can’t smoke cannabis leaves. ~Velvet O’Rourke~ Sacramento, California

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Question:

Jack Schmidling posted excerpts from a Chicago Tribune article about settlers in the Occupied Territories (or East Jerusalem?) busting into Arab’s houses in the middle of the night. If the article had been well-written and factual in the first place, would Schmidling have bothered posting it here?  You tell me.

        Schmidling will post any article critical of Israel.         Any newspaper article posted by Schmidling should         be judged by its own merits. ARF’s conclusions are         a different matter. and Bill raises these questions:        What does this mean?  Are you saying that the Israeli        government told people they had to leave their own homes,        whether they wanted to or not, and then sold the houses        because they were "unoccupied"? Hold on.  The houses in question did not have a legal owner, someone who was registered in any kind of registry as owning the property. These houses were abandoned by Jewish owners when the Jordanians took over East Jerusalem; other people just moved in.  Here in the U.S.A. such people would be called squatters.

        This argument makes no sense.         If there is no registered title to the real estate, then how         does the Israeli government know that those houses are         rightfully ‘Jewish’? And how is ownership transferred from         and individual to a group?         If the Arabs were squatters, then due process would seem         to dictate that the original owners would need to go to court         and reclaim title to their land. That the government seized         the properties in question on its own accord, and distributed         it willy nilly, raises my own suspicions. It looks like the         charges of ’squatter’ are more pretext than context. The government, enforcing the law, took back this property to re-allocate to people with better claim to the property.  [...]  The squatters DO have a right to claim the property in court and they did; the court found that they had no evidence to support their claim of ownership (i.e. they were squatting).

        Under US most common laws, squatters can come into ownership         of a property if it has been ‘abandoned’ by its original owner.         ‘Abandoned’ generally means that the property owner does not         legally press his claim to the property in question over         some period of time, say, 7 years. Now, I can’t exactly claim         to be an expert on Israeli law, but I can’t see the Israeli         law being much different than that.         It sounds, so far, like the Arabs in those houses         weren’t given a fair shake on the stick to begin with.                     ______                       ////                          /     Are you happy now, Clark?

Response:

Jack Schmidling posted excerpts from a Chicago Tribune article about settlers in the Occupied Territories (or East Jerusalem?) busting into Arab’s houses in the middle of the night.

If the article had been well-written and factual in the first place, would Schmidling have bothered posting it here?  You tell me. ] I would like to point out a few inaccuracies in this posting. ] By doing so, I am not attempting to support the actions of the ] settlers which I detest, but to present a full picture of the facts. ] [...]

and Bill raises these questions:    What does this mean?  Are you saying that the Israeli    government told people they had to leave their own homes,    whether they wanted to or not, and then sold the houses    because they were "unoccupied"?  And why should the government    have the right to take someone’s house even if it IS empty?    Much less to sell it when the real owner hasn’t decided to,    or as appears to be the case here, when the owner HAS sold it!    That’s outrageous!

Hold on.  The houses in question did not have a legal owner, someone who was registered in any kind of registry as owning the property. These houses were abandoned by Jewish owners when the Jordanians took over East Jerusalem; other people just moved in.  Here in the U.S.A. such people would be called squatters.  The government, enforcing the law, took back this property to re-allocate to people with better claim to the property.  This is the same kind of law that President Bush enforced when he took Kuwait back from Iraq a year ago.  The squatters DO have a right to claim the property in court and they did; the court found that they had no evidence to support their claim of ownership (i.e. they were squatting).    I really liked Israel when I was over there in 86,    but the government sounds like they’re treating the Arabs    like our government treated the Vietnamese –    attack the innocent civilians along with the "enemy" soldiers.

This is not the case at all.  Perhaps you might try to visit again and see for yourself if the media has given you a fair accounting of the events and circumstances in Israel today. I myself have recently returned from a visit to Israel and there are many things that are not being publicised.  Many Arabs in Israel are making plenty money in businesses and professions, living in large marble-tiled houses and driving Mercedeses.  As cities like Jerusalem grow, Arab home-owners are raking it in on gains in the value of their homes, especially in the outer suburbs where developers are building new apartments.   To be sure, there are many Arabs (and Jews) who are living in awful conditions, but many are doing quite well, too.  Their homes and neighborhoods couldn’t qualify for "refugee camp" status by any standards, despite the medias constant wailing about it.                            Pray for peace;      Bill

So will I. Jake Livni

Response:

Jack Schmidling posted excerpts from a Chicago Tribune article about settlers in the Occupied Territories (or East Jerusalem?) busting into Arab’s houses in the middle of the night.

] I would like to point out a few inaccuracies in this posting. ] By doing so, I am not attempting to support the actions of the ] settlers which I detest, but to present a full picture of the facts. ] ] By law, a special gov’t bureau is responsible for all absentee ] real estate. This bureau has the express right to sell such ] properties to any bidder as set by the criteria of the bureau. ] A large portion of the properties left behind by Arab residents ] was thus "resold". The residents of the properties had been given ] notice in the past that they were required to vacate the premises.         What does this mean?  Are you saying that the Israeli         government told people they had to leave their own homes,         whether they wanted to or not, and then sold the houses         because they were "unoccupied"?  And why should the government         have the right to take someone’s house even if it IS empty?         Much less to sell it when the real owner hasn’t decided to,         or as appears to be the case here, when the owner HAS sold it!         That’s outrageous!         I really liked Israel when I was over there in 86,         but the government sounds like they’re treating the Arabs         like our government treated the Vietnamese –         attack the innocent civilians along with the "enemy" soldiers. —                                 Pray for peace;      Bill #Bill Stewart +1-908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ # The government borrowed another billion dollars today – like every day. # That’s $4 they’ll steal from you later.  How much did you spend on lunch?

Response:

|   |  What is almost as disgusting as the settlers’ action is the |  Israeli government’s assumption of guilt until proven |  innocent.  The Arab homes are sealed up simply on the word |  of the Jews.  This is the only Democracy in the Mideast, |  remember?  Democracy for whom?  Jews, of course. I would like to point out a few inaccuracies in this posting. By doing so, I am not attempting to support the actions of the settlers which I detest, but to present a full picture of the facts. By law, a special gov’t bureau is responsible for all absentee real estate. This bureau has the express right to sell such properties to any bidder as set by the criteria of the bureau. A large portion of the properties left behind by Arab residents was thus "resold". The residents of the properties had been given notice in the past that they were required to vacate the premises. The homes were sealed as there now exist two parties with legal claims for the properties in question. The matter is now being debated in the juducial system and both parties are awaiting an answer. As to my own opinions, I strongly protest the fact that funds from the Ministry of Housing were used to purchase these homes. I am also opposed to the fact that the settlers, even if the courts find in their favor, took the law into their own hands and did not proceed in an orderly fashion to invoke the legal system to perform the eviction. It is also interesting to point out that the police had information regarding the plans of the settlers, and when they confronted the settlers with their suspicions, the settlers promised (via the MK) that such was not the case.

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 don’t often consider the Chicago tribune as a useful  source of Mideast news but lately, their new found  objectivity has prompted me to quote them twice.  If this article doesn’t turn your stomach and prompt you to  change your attitude toward Israel, you have a heart of  stone.  Just put yourself in the place of the Arab woman,  with the Jewish thugs breaking down her bedroom door at 4  a.m.  This is right out of the pages of Stalinist Russia.  Why the  hell are we sending them money?  What the hell is wrong with  calling these people CHUTZPANAZIS?  That’s exactly what they  are.            ARMED JEWISH SETTLERS TAKE OVER            ARAB HOMES IN EAST JERUSALEM  Tom Hundley, Chi Trib, Oct 10, 1991  In a pre-dawn operation executed with commando precision, 40  armed Jewish settlers seized two dozen Arab homes in East  Jerusalem Wednesday, in some cases evicting the residents at  gunpoint.  By late afternoon police had removed the settlers from all  but one of the houses.  That house was occupied by several  rightwing Knesset members who invoked the privilege of  parliamentary immunity to ignore police orders.  Police sealed up the other houses.  The Arabs who lived in  them are barred from returning until an Israeli court  renders an opinion on the legal ownership.  The settlers, identifying themselves as part of a group  called El-Ad, said they had legally purchased the properties  over the last several years.  That was news to Omar Tawil.  He was out of town for the  night, but his wife was home at 4 a.m. when two settlers  crashed through the skylight and kicked open her bedroom  door.  They informed her the house now belonged to them and  ordered her out at gunpoint.  Mamil Abasi, 45, and his family returned from a family  wedding Wed morning to find a group of settlers had moved  into the house he has lived in since 1967.  Both families had to seek refuge with neighbors after the  police sealed up their homes.  Knesset member Ovadia Eli, criticized the settlers, saying  they "came like thieves at night".  Ariel Sharon said  questioning the settlers’ actions is tantamont to  questioning Israel’s sovereignty over Jerusalem.  What is almost as disgusting as the settlers’ action is the  Israeli government’s assumption of guilt until proven  innocent.  The Arab homes are sealed up simply on the word  of the Jews.  This is the only Democracy in the Mideast,  remember?  Democracy for whom?  Jews, of course.  It is hard to express strongly enough, my revulsion for this  sort of activity but even stronger is my revulsion for  Congress and the thousands of lobiest who decend on  Washington to demand more money for these dispicable people.  If you want to do something to stop this outrage, write or  call……          The Council for the National Interest          1900 Eighteenth St NW          Washington, DC 20009          (202) 265 4530  Tell ‘em arf sent you…..  arf

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