Question:

Mr. Cannon, Many accounting systems print the packing slip at the time of invoice generation. Invoices usually have multiple parts and one part (prices blocked out) is often used as the packing slip.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not sure about Simply, but in most Acctg Software, you cannot print a Packing Slip after you have printed the Invoice for the sale.  Once you print the Invoice, the system updates your Inventory, Sales Analysis, General Ledger and Accounts Receivable. You wouldn’t want to go back and change the items after you sold them, would you? Try printing the Packing Slip before you print the Invoice and see if you get better results.

Response:

I am trying to get an invoice and a packing slip printed from the Sales Orders and Quotes Sales Invoice screen. I have not been successful as the default form to be printed is the Invoice. Can I get a packing slip printed from another screen? Anyone else have a workaround? It is for a trucking firm. Dan

I looked at the various reports and I don’t see a packing slip.  But try this place and post your question in the Simply acctng forum. They might have a workaround for this. http://www.pluscommunity.com/ Jenn Bookkeepers are not boring people. We just get excited about boring things. jkbs at hwcn dot org

Response:

Hello, The problem is that I can not find a packing slip form to print, in Simply. Thanks, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not sure about Simply, but in most Acctg Software, you cannot print a Packing Slip after you have printed the Invoice for the sale.  Once you print the Invoice, the system updates your Inventory, Sales Analysis, General Ledger and Accounts Receivable. You wouldn’t want to go back and change the items after you sold them, would you? Try printing the Packing Slip before you print the Invoice and see if you get better results.

Response:

Not sure about Simply, but in most Acctg Software, you cannot print a Packing Slip after you have printed the Invoice for the sale.  Once you print the Invoice, the system updates your Inventory, Sales Analysis, General Ledger and Accounts Receivable. You wouldn’t want to go back and change the items after you sold them, would you? Try printing the Packing Slip before you print the Invoice and see if you get better results.

Response:

I am trying to get an invoice and a packing slip printed from the Sales Orders and Quotes Sales Invoice screen. I have not been successful as the default form to be printed is the Invoice. Can I get a packing slip printed from another screen? Anyone else have a workaround? It is for a trucking firm. Dan

Response:

Question:

Hi! I am planning to buy QuickBooks Pro3 for the bookkeeping business that I am starting. I want to know whether I will be able to do book keeping for my clients who may be running lower/older versions of quickbooks? Will they have any difficulty in opening accounts files that have been created in QB Pro3, or I will need to buy older versions of the software also. Thanks in advance for any help.

Response:

It will be really surprising if you find customers with versions older than QB3, and I would never consider recommending a client to you if you are going to use a version that old in your "bookkeeping business". However, in the unlikely circumstances that you get any clients, and they are using older versions, you will be able to convert their files to your version but they will not be able to subsequently open the converted file in their version of QB. I think you should re-evaluate your business plan.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! I am planning to buy QuickBooks Pro3 for the bookkeeping business that I am starting. I want to know whether I will be able to do book keeping for my clients who may be running lower/older versions of quickbooks? Will they have any difficulty in opening accounts files that have been created in QB Pro3, or I will need to buy older versions of the software also. Thanks in advance for any help.

Response:

Few US clients use versions of Quickbooks this old.  It would be in my opinion pointless to attempt to use such old versions of the product.  Most clients I have QB99 as the very oldest version and go to the current 2003 version.  I find it necessary to have all versions from 99 to 2003 on my server to use the correct version my clients bring to me. You should consider using more current versions. — Jack Hatfield Quickbooks, MAS90 & BusinessWorks Tech Support by phone without the waits and hassles of big call centers Affordable rates call or write for a pleasant surprise. Marana AZ  85653 520 682-2060

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! I am planning to buy QuickBooks Pro3 for the bookkeeping business that I am starting. I want to know whether I will be able to do book keeping for my clients who may be running lower/older versions of quickbooks? Will they have any difficulty in opening accounts files that have been created in QB Pro3, or I will need to buy older versions of the software also. Thanks in advance for any help.

Response:

I have a feeling that the original poster means 2003 rather than version 3.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It will be really surprising if you find customers with versions older than QB3, and I would never consider recommending a client to you if you are going to use a version that old in your "bookkeeping business". However, in the unlikely circumstances that you get any clients, and they are using older versions, you will be able to convert their files to your version but they will not be able to subsequently open the converted file in their version of QB. I think you should re-evaluate your business plan. Hi! I am planning to buy QuickBooks Pro3 for the bookkeeping business that I am starting. I want to know whether I will be able to do book keeping for my clients who may be running lower/older versions of quickbooks? Will they have any difficulty in opening accounts files that have been created in QB Pro3, or I will need to buy older versions of the software also. Thanks in advance for any help.

Response:

I assume you mean QuickBooks Pro 2003, which is the latest version. If you use QB2003 to work on a client’s file, and the client is using an older version of QuickBooks (QB2002 or older), your client will not be able to read the file that your send back.  That’s one of the bad features about QuickBooks — you and your client have to be using the exact same version of QuickBooks (and the exact same upgrade of that version) in order for you both to exchange files back and forth. One option would be for you to buy older versions on Ebay from people who already upgraded and no longer need their version.  Another might be to install a copy of your client’s version of QuickBooks on your computer — I think that’s legal in most prior versions because you are just using it to view and work on their company file.  I think there is some kind of super-duper accountant’s version — for more money — that allows accountants to work on files from any version and return the files to their clients in a format that their clients can still use.  You’d have to hear back from some accountant here to find out about that option, and if I am right about that. Good luck with your new business!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! I am planning to buy QuickBooks Pro3 for the bookkeeping business that I am starting. I want to know whether I will be able to do book keeping for my clients who may be running lower/older versions of quickbooks? Will they have any difficulty in opening accounts files that have been created in QB Pro3, or I will need to buy older versions of the software also. Thanks in advance for any help.

Response:

I assume you mean QuickBooks Pro 2003, which is the latest version. If you use QB2003 to work on a client’s file, and the client is using an older version of QuickBooks (QB2002 or older), your client will not be able to read the file that your send back.  That’s one of the bad features about QuickBooks — you and your client have to be using the exact same version of QuickBooks (and the exact same upgrade of that version) in order for you both to exchange files back and forth.

This so called bad feature or should say lack of a feature is not unique to Quickbooks but is typical of every accounting package on the market today. If accounting software vendors fail in moving their installed base up the upgrade ladder then they cease to economically exist along with the people who support their products. The cost to write routines that can convert down an application’s database to those compatible with prior versions are just too costly and serve no economic purpose for the vendor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One option would be for you to buy older versions on Ebay from people who already upgraded and no longer need their version.  Another might be to install a copy of your client’s version of QuickBooks on your computer — I think that’s legal in most prior versions because you are just using it to view and work on their company file.  I think there is some kind of super-duper accountant’s version — for more money — that allows accountants to work on files from any version and return the files to their clients in a format that their clients can still use.  You’d have to hear back from some accountant here to find out about that option, and if I am right about that. Good luck with your new business! Hi! I am planning to buy QuickBooks Pro3 for the bookkeeping business that I am starting. I want to know whether I will be able to do book keeping for my clients who may be running lower/older versions of quickbooks? Will they have any difficulty in opening accounts files that have been created in QB Pro3, or I will need to buy older versions of the software also. Thanks in advance for any help.

Response:

view and work on their company file.  I think there is some kind of super-duper accountant’s version — for more money — that allows accountants to work on files from any version and return the files to their clients in a format that their clients can still use.  You’d have to hear back from some accountant here to find out about that option, and if I am right about that.

I’ve never heard of this option,  intuit quickbooks advertises a "premier accountant edition" but it doesn’t mention working on prior version files. I think the quickbook upgrades are primarily $$ for intuit and not necessarily better product enhancements.

Response:

view and work on their company file.  I think there is some kind of super-duper accountant’s version — for more money — that allows accountants to work on files from any version and return the files to their clients in a format that their clients can still use.  You’d have to hear back from some accountant here to find out about that option, and if I am right about that. I’ve never heard of this option,  intuit quickbooks advertises a "premier accountant edition" but it doesn’t mention working on prior version files. I think the quickbook upgrades are primarily $$ for intuit and not necessarily better product enhancements.

The Accountant Version has a number of features that makes it well worth an extra $120 or so a year to me. They include automation of journal entries, a better JE view, remote support of other users, a better condense and much you can get under http://www.quickbooks.com/. However, AE uses the same file format as other QB versions (except Enterprise) in any year. If you use AE 2003 or any version of 2003 then 2002 users will no longer be able to use it.          Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540            Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council        Error Codes/Fixes  http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

Hi! I am planning to buy QuickBooks Pro3 for the bookkeeping business that I am starting. I want to know whether I will be able to do book keeping for my clients who may be running lower/older versions of quickbooks? Will they have any difficulty in opening accounts files that have been created in QB Pro3, or I will need to buy older versions of the software also. Thanks in advance for any help.

Thanks for the great help from all of you on my question. I am now planning to buy QB PR0 2001, 2002 and 2003. However, another question has cropped up in the meantime. Will I be able to service my customers if they have basic edition of quickbooks of the same year. I mean, if I update accounts in QB Pro 2002, will these be usable in QB basic 2002? Thanks in advance for your help.

Response:

Yes.  Basic and Pro editions use the same files.  The Pro editions just has more features that let you do more different things with the files.  But, if are using Pro and your clients are using Basic (and vice versa) you can still exchange files as long as you have the same year version — 2001, 2002, 2003, etc. — and as long as you both updated your versions to the same (preferably the latest) update version for that year.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! I am planning to buy QuickBooks Pro3 for the bookkeeping business that I am starting. I want to know whether I will be able to do book keeping for my clients who may be running lower/older versions of quickbooks? Will they have any difficulty in opening accounts files that have been created in QB Pro3, or I will need to buy older versions of the software also. Thanks in advance for any help. Thanks for the great help from all of you on my question. I am now planning to buy QB PR0 2001, 2002 and 2003. However, another question has cropped up in the meantime. Will I be able to service my customers if they have basic edition of quickbooks of the same year. I mean, if I update accounts in QB Pro 2002, will these be usable in QB basic 2002? Thanks in advance for your help.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ am going to change to Sprint next month when the contract is up. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~I’ve got Alltel. Awful. ~ ~ ~Thinking about going to Sprint, too. [internet] ~ ~ ~Alltel’s the only phone company around here. ~ ~ ~ ~ Oh, and my phone is RARELY charged, and I haven’t bothered to ~ figure ~ ~ out how to get messages. ~ ~ ~ ~heh ~ ~"You have…. 3001 messages." ~ ~ Undoubtedly…but I think they expire. ~ ~I imagine they would. Just think of getting last years messages… Uh, no thanks, I’d rather not. Damn, last year this time I was applying for a ‘better’ job.  Homes and Land Magazine.  The job turned out to suck big time and I left a decent enough job for that. The Adrian fiasco had just ‘ended’. I had just moved. Pretty wild.

At least you had something happen. Last year I was….. here. Doing this. As Bitey says rut/rut/rut/rut/rut/rut/rut/rut/rut — /nikaia/the undead/ ONO/OCC Mother Bag Lady of the Order of Sisters of Perpetual Bagging "I’m counting UFOs. I signal them with my lighter. And in this moment, I am happy." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~

~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~

~ ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ am going to change to Sprint next month when the contract is ~ up. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~I’ve got Alltel. Awful. ~ ~ ~ ~Thinking about going to Sprint, too. [internet] ~ ~ ~ ~Alltel’s the only phone company around here. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Oh, and my phone is RARELY charged, and I haven’t bothered to ~ ~ figure ~ ~ ~ out how to get messages. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~heh ~ ~ ~"You have…. 3001 messages." ~ ~ ~ ~ Undoubtedly…but I think they expire. ~ ~ ~ ~I imagine they would. Just think of getting last years messages… ~ ~ Uh, no thanks, I’d rather not. ~ Damn, last year this time I was applying for a ‘better’ job.  Homes ~ and Land Magazine.  The job turned out to suck big time and I left a ~ decent enough job for that. ~ The Adrian fiasco had just ‘ended’. ~ I had just moved. ~ Pretty wild. ~ ~At least you had something happen. ~Last year I was….. here. Doing this. ~As Bitey says ~rut/rut/rut/rut/rut/rut/rut/rut/rut In the words of my friend ravyn, "laura’s life is never dull". And hell, i’m not even a drama monger. Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~

~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~

~ ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ am going to change to Sprint next month when the contract is up. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~I’ve got Alltel. Awful. ~ ~ ~Thinking about going to Sprint, too. [internet] ~ ~ ~Alltel’s the only phone company around here. ~ ~ ~ ~ Oh, and my phone is RARELY charged, and I haven’t bothered to ~ figure ~ ~ out how to get messages. ~ ~ ~ ~heh ~ ~"You have…. 3001 messages." ~ ~ Undoubtedly…but I think they expire. ~ ~I imagine they would. Just think of getting last years messages… Uh, no thanks, I’d rather not. Damn, last year this time I was applying for a ‘better’ job.  Homes and Land Magazine.  The job turned out to suck big time and I left a decent enough job for that. The Adrian fiasco had just ‘ended’. I had just moved. Pretty wild. Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

Contacts: <snip Hey Asshole I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place?

To be fair Talesin tried this same tatic with me last year. He got it ALL wrong but he did  publish online what he thought my name place of work and other details were …. I did not do this (I could care less) BUT it is a Karmic lesson for David!

Response:

Contacts: <snip Hey Asshole I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place? To be fair Talesin tried this same tatic with me last year. He got it ALL wrong but he did  publish online what he thought my name place of work and other details were …. I did not do this (I could care less) BUT it is a Karmic lesson for David!

True, true… As he said, this isn’t even his info. It’s someone else’s. That person doesn’t deserve a bunch of kooks calling/dropping by thinking they’re contacting tales. [for whatever reason] Publishing someone’s info is just plain wrong. Publishing the *wrong* info is worse… involving innocent, unknowing people. — /nikaia/the undead/ ONO/OCC Mother Bag Lady of the Order of Sisters of Perpetual Bagging "I’m counting UFOs. I signal them with my lighter. And in this moment, I am happy."

Response:

finger to key and barely tapped out:

~ Contacts: ~ <snip ~ ~ Hey Asshole ~ I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. ~ How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place? ~ ~To be fair Talesin tried this same tatic with me last year. He got it ~ALL wrong but he did  publish online what he thought my name place of ~work and other details were …. ~ ~I did not do this (I could care less) BUT it is a Karmic lesson for ~David! No matter to whom it happens it isn’t right. Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ am going to change to Sprint next month when the contract is up. ~ ~ ~ ~I’ve got Alltel. Awful. ~ ~Thinking about going to Sprint, too. [internet] ~ ~Alltel’s the only phone company around here. ~ ~ Oh, and my phone is RARELY charged, and I haven’t bothered to figure ~ out how to get messages. ~ ~heh ~"You have…. 3001 messages." Undoubtedly…but I think they expire.

I imagine they would. Just think of getting last years messages… heh — /nikaia/the undead/ ONO/OCC Mother Bag Lady of the Order of Sisters of Perpetual Bagging "I’m counting UFOs. I signal them with my lighter. And in this moment, I am happy." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ am going to change to Sprint next month when the contract is up. ~ ~I’ve got Alltel. Awful. ~Thinking about going to Sprint, too. [internet] ~Alltel’s the only phone company around here. Oh, and my phone is RARELY charged, and I haven’t bothered to figure out how to get messages. Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ am going to change to Sprint next month when the contract is up. ~ ~I’ve got Alltel. Awful. ~Thinking about going to Sprint, too. [internet] ~Alltel’s the only phone company around here. Oh, and my phone is RARELY charged, and I haven’t bothered to figure out how to get messages.

heh "You have…. 3001 messages." — /nikaia/the undead/ ONO/OCC Mother Bag Lady of the Order of Sisters of Perpetual Bagging "I’m counting UFOs. I signal them with my lighter. And in this moment, I am happy." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out: Oh, btw, now that you all have my address I will be expecting a birthday card.  January 23, 1966 Thank you very much. Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Contacts: <snip Hey Asshole I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place? Calm down. This is not my stuff. It is just some shit she ("Walter" is MOONPHA1SE) got off of switchboard.com I called the person who has this number and advised them of what is going on (just incase some whacko like Carl or Moonie shows up at their house). I also sent them copies of the post with headers intact. He happens to be a computer engineer and his wife is, well, that’s a surprise but it is really funny. E-mail me private and I will tell you if you want. Mr Talesin, for somebody like yourself who wants to bring about a lawsuit, you have posted somebody’s name, city and state in which they live, furthermore, if that information is not yours, then there is nothing for you to worry about. Let the other "David Willard" handle the legal problem, and besides hacking into somebody’s computer from your own to get information on their e mail addresses they use in the newsgroup is a criminal matter, however, looking up somebody’s name and address from the on line white pages and posting it is not. Suppose you think very hard before you even consider taking any type of legal action.

Well, well, well. Who said anything about me taking legal action? Perhaps you misunderstood what I said in IM last night. Of course, you have just proven that you are Deborah Berger aka MOONPHA1SE a known stalker and net terrorist. As a Witch I have, well, other ways of dealing with life’s difficulties. However you have spread enough malicious libel on these groups that you probably should be saving those nickels up to defend yoursefl from all of the people who are going to end up owning you. — Talesin- Patriot and Witch ICQ 86535317 AIM Tales1n http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft We are not afraid!

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~

~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ am going to change to Sprint next month when the contract is up. ~ ~ ~ ~I’ve got Alltel. Awful. ~ ~Thinking about going to Sprint, too. [internet] ~ ~Alltel’s the only phone company around here. ~ ~ Oh, and my phone is RARELY charged, and I haven’t bothered to figure ~ out how to get messages. ~ ~heh ~"You have…. 3001 messages." Undoubtedly…but I think they expire. Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ brown) ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ Oh, btw, now that you all have my address I will be expecting a ~ birthday card.  January 23, 1966 ~ Thank you very much. ~ ~It’s too late to send a card in Jan 1966. 2002 dear!

Oh. My bad. ‘-)~ Oh, and that is my cell phone number…I have Alltel and hate it.  I am going to change to Sprint next month when the contract is up.

I’ve got Alltel. Awful. Thinking about going to Sprint, too. [internet] Alltel’s the only phone company around here. — /nikaia/the undead/ ONO/OCC Mother Bag Lady of the Order of Sisters of Perpetual Bagging "I’m counting UFOs. I signal them with my lighter. And in this moment, I am happy." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out: Oh, btw, now that you all have my address I will be expecting a birthday card.  January 23, 1966 Thank you very much.

It’s too late to send a card in Jan 1966. — /nikaia/the undead/ ONO/OCC Mother Bag Lady of the Order of Sisters of Perpetual Bagging "I’m counting UFOs. I signal them with my lighter. And in this moment, I am happy." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~

brown) ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ Oh, btw, now that you all have my address I will be expecting a ~ birthday card.  January 23, 1966 ~ Thank you very much. ~ ~It’s too late to send a card in Jan 1966. 2002 dear! Oh, and that is my cell phone number…I have Alltel and hate it.  I am going to change to Sprint next month when the contract is up. Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Contacts: <snip Hey Asshole I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place? Calm down. This is not my stuff. It is just some shit she ("Walter" is MOONPHA1SE) got off of switchboard.com I called the person who has this number and advised them of what is going on (just incase some whacko like Carl or Moonie shows up at their house). I also sent them copies of the post with headers intact. He happens to be a computer engineer and his wife is, well, that’s a surprise but it is really funny. E-mail me private and I will tell you if you want.

Mr Talesin, for somebody like yourself who wants to bring about a lawsuit, you have posted somebody’s name, city and state in which they live, furthermore, if that information is not yours, then there is nothing for you to worry about. Let the other "David Willard" handle the legal problem, and besides hacking into somebody’s computer from your own to get information on their e mail addresses they use in the newsgroup is a criminal matter, however, looking up somebody’s name and address from the on line white pages and posting it is not. Suppose you think very hard before you even consider taking any type of legal action. By the way, these two messages that you posted, Talesin certainly make you look like the troublemaker in the eyes of the judge. Newsgroups: alt.religion.wicca, alt.religion.asatru View: Complete Thread (14 articles) | Original Format – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just wanted to point out to all of you that I have, yet again, destroyed another ARW enemy. rhyannon now lies in the large pile of  UseNet "corpses" I have accumulated. Along with her she took the entire remnant of "pig culture" including Gman the drunk, Pip the knower of the "one true secret of Witchcraft," Gargoyle the miserable disease infested loser, Rogue the deformed poster girl for terminal depression, and a host of other vermin. All that is left is poor Jules. That is because she is condemned to simply wander about as if lost. Her punishment for bringing the disease "I de Salvo" among us. The list is getting so long! Shez, Desperado/alt.2600, the pig herself, ren, ARWM- I can hardly keep track of all the ass I have kicked. Do you really think the poltroons of uk.religion.pagan have a chance? Be sure to reply there if you want me to see it. — Talesin- Patriot and Witch Please pardon my interuption to this thread. I am not a regular poster here, just a sometime-lurker. But I unfortunately have to inform you that one of the corpses is not quite dead. A poster by the name of MOONPHAlZE has begun stalking several posters on AOHELL’s Pagan message board. She is acting the same way she did in this forum a few years back. Same old Method of Operation. She has recently sent out threatening e-mails accusing people of conspiring against her. The most recent mailing she has distributed has several screen names from this forum in it, along with copies of posts by those people, some dating back to 1997! Talesin was one of the people listed in this e-mail. I have no clue why she is bringing these people and posts up in another forum, but I wanted to give some forewarning, as this loon has definately fallen off her rocker. Blessings,  Kat

We are all well aware of MOONPHA1SE who’s real name is Deborah Berger (aka Debbieburger) lives in Salem MA. Her shtick is to do her zombie routine until she pisses people off and then TOS-ing them. She will send an abuse report to my ISP merely for giving you her name. There is no accounting as to how her mind works, we have not talked in ages. Your best course is to ignore her and bomb AOL with TOS complaints everytime she fucks up. She is a whack case so arguing with her is pointless. — Talesin- Patriot and Witch ICQ 86535317 AIM Tales1n http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft We are not afraid! Message 3 in thread Newsgroups: alt.religion.wicca, alt.religion.asatru View this article only

We are all well aware of MOONPHA1SE who’s real name is Deborah Berger (aka Debbieburger) lives in Salem MA. Her shtick is to do her zombie routine until she pisses people off and then TOS-ing them. She will send an abuse report to my ISP merely for giving you her name. There is no accounting as to how her mind works, we have not talked in ages. Your best course is to ignore her and bomb AOL with TOS complaints everytime she fucks up. She is a whack case so arguing with her is pointless. I wonder which nitwit shrink let moonphart out of the asylum??????  Be afraid Moonphart, be very afraid!!!!! Oldone

This is what I hear from someone I know who follows Debbieburger’s AOL exploits: "You would not believe the problems she is causing. BTW- she now lives in Louisiana. She is presently stalking via phone calls and mail a Pagan community leader of the First Unitarian Universalist Church in Salem. She has been posting negative comments on AOL about the ARW people, and the newsgroup in general. As to why she is sending mail to AOL users containing posts from A.R.W. I have no clue" — Talesin- Patriot and Witch ICQ 86535317 AIM Tales1n http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft We are not afraid! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Talesin- Patriot and Witch ICQ 86535317 AIM Tales1n http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft We are not afraid!

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out:

~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~

~ ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ message ~ ~ ~ Contacts: ~ ~ ~<snip ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~Hey Asshole ~ ~ ~I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. ~ ~ ~How would you like your personal info splattered all over the ~ place? ~ ~ ~ ~ All you have to do for that is look up on network solutions whois ~ ~ www.rubinesque.com ~ ~ You will have everything you need to know about this twit. ~ ~ ~Miss Laura, you talk too much in the newsgroup and this is the ~information that was searched on your own website: ~ ~Registrant: ~ cat-a-tonic studios ~ 246 Eagle Drive ~ Panama City Beach, Florida 32407 ~ US ~ ~ Domain Name: CATATONICSTUDIOS.COM ~ ~ Administrative Contact: ~    246 Eagle Drive ~    Panama City Beach, Florida 32407 ~    US ~    850-819-5724 ~ ~ Technical Contact: ~    Suite 607 – 4538 Kingsway ~    Burnaby, BC V5H 4T9 ~    CA ~    604-434-4307 ~ ~ Billing Contact: ~    246 Eagle Drive ~    Panama City Beach, Florida 32407 ~    US ~    850-819-5724 ~ ~ ~ Record last updated on 12-Oct-2001. ~ Record expires on 02-May-2002. ~ Record Created on 02-May-2001. ~ ~ Domain servers in listed order: ~    DNS3.DOTEASY.COM   209.153.212.103 ~    DNS4.DOTEASY.COM   209.153.212.104 Honey, I always knew this info was out there. I’m sure others have looked it up. They just have more class, grace, tact and character to post it. Now you have shown me yourself completely. Post my phone number now.  Okay?? Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

Contacts:

<snip Hey Asshole I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place? — /nikaia/the undead/ ONO/OCC Mother Bag Lady of the Order of Sisters of Perpetual Bagging "I’m counting UFOs. I signal them with my lighter. And in this moment, I am happy."

Response:

Contacts: <snip Hey Asshole I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place?

Calm down. This is not my stuff. It is just some shit she ("Walter" is MOONPHA1SE) got off of switchboard.com I called the person who has this number and advised them of what is going on (just incase some whacko like Carl or Moonie shows up at their house). I also sent them copies of the post with headers intact. He happens to be a computer engineer and his wife is, well, that’s a surprise but it is really funny. E-mail me private and I will tell you if you want. — Talesin- Patriot and Witch ICQ 86535317 AIM Tales1n http://home.kc.rr.com/pendragonsloft We are not afraid!

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~

~ Contacts: ~<snip ~ ~Hey Asshole ~I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. ~How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place? All you have to do for that is look up on network solutions whois www.rubinesque.com You will have everything you need to know about this twit. Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ Contacts: ~<snip ~ ~Hey Asshole ~I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. ~How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place? All you have to do for that is look up on network solutions whois www.rubinesque.com You will have everything you need to know about this twit.

Oh jeebusfuckingchrist. Well, at least I got the "Hey Asshole" part right… — /nikaia/the undead/ ONO/OCC Mother Bag Lady of the Order of Sisters of Perpetual Bagging "I’m counting UFOs. I signal them with my lighter. And in this moment, I am happy." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Contacts: ~ ~<snip ~ ~ ~ ~Hey Asshole ~ ~I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. ~ ~How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place? ~ ~ All you have to do for that is look up on network solutions whois ~ www.rubinesque.com ~ You will have everything you need to know about this twit. ~ ~Oh jeebusfuckingchrist. ~ ~Well, at least I got the "Hey Asshole" part right… <chuckle Yes, I thought you would appreciate that.

Definitely — /nikaia/the undead/ ONO/OCC Mother Bag Lady of the Order of Sisters of Perpetual Bagging "I’m counting UFOs. I signal them with my lighter. And in this moment, I am happy." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Contacts: ~ ~<snip ~ ~ ~ ~Hey Asshole ~ ~I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. ~ ~How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place? ~ ~ All you have to do for that is look up on network solutions whois ~ www.rubinesque.com ~ You will have everything you need to know about this twit.

Miss Laura, you talk too much in the newsgroup and this is the information that was searched on your own website: Registrant:  cat-a-tonic studios  246 Eagle Drive  Panama City Beach, Florida 32407  US  Domain Name: CATATONICSTUDIOS.COM  Administrative Contact:     246 Eagle Drive     Panama City Beach, Florida 32407     US     850-819-5724  Technical Contact:     Suite 607 – 4538 Kingsway     Burnaby, BC V5H 4T9     CA     604-434-4307  Billing Contact:     246 Eagle Drive     Panama City Beach, Florida 32407     US     850-819-5724  Record last updated on 12-Oct-2001.  Record expires on 02-May-2002.  Record Created on 02-May-2001.  Domain servers in listed order:     DNS3.DOTEASY.COM   209.153.212.103     DNS4.DOTEASY.COM   209.153.212.104  ~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ~Oh jeebusfuckingchrist. ~ ~Well, at least I got the "Hey Asshole" part right… <chuckle Yes, I thought you would appreciate that. Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~

~ put finger to key and barely tapped out: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Contacts: ~ ~<snip ~ ~ ~ ~Hey Asshole ~ ~I’m not his biggest fan, but that shit’s not cool. ~ ~How would you like your personal info splattered all over the place? ~ ~ All you have to do for that is look up on network solutions whois ~ www.rubinesque.com ~ You will have everything you need to know about this twit. ~ ~Oh jeebusfuckingchrist. ~ ~Well, at least I got the "Hey Asshole" part right… <chuckle Yes, I thought you would appreciate that. Laura! Jetzt bin ich leicht, jetzt fliege ich, jetzt sehe ich mich unter mir, jetzt tanzt ein Gott durch mich. ~Nietzsche ONO/OCC www.knology.net/~vanda www.catatonicstudios.com

Response:

Contacts: Kansas City Business number: (816) 931-4443 On-site number (913) 796-2141 On-site number (913) 796-1766 Earth Rising P.O. Box 10442 Kansas City, MO 64171-0442 David Willard           7309 N Liberty St Kansas City, MO 64118   David Willard aka Talesin, why don’t you go tell everybody that you meet on the street about your personal sex life! You are obviously telling everybody here in the newsgroup! Fun With Tents by The Pendragon The Festival had been possibly one of the best times of my life. Five days of camping, drinking, drumming, and fucking. It was a nonstop party with people who know what a party is all about. I was sharing my tent with my girlfriend and a Covenmate, also a girl,  with whom I had been quite good friends for some time. It was the last night of the fest and my girlfriend was out partying with some of her friends while I was hanging with my Covenmate. We had decided to hop down to the main building for a shower. In the manner that things normally work, a torrential downpour hit just as we began walking back to the tent. We ran a long way through the rain in the dark and the mud until we made it back to the tent. The tent had a little screened vestibule outside of the sleeping area. We stopped there, our wet clothes dripping. Having no other choice, we stripped and entered the main area. In this area, we had a big air mattress covered by a sleeping bag and several blankets. My first thought, of course, was that my friend and I would fuck for awhile to pass the time inside the boring tent. Clicking on the flashlight, I saw my girlfriend’s sleeping form curled up on the bed. So much for my fun. Resigned to maybe no more than some fun cuddling, I slipped between the covers. In the darkness the lightning flashed and the thunder rumbled. The wind made the sides of the tent ripple. Here I was in a nice warm and dry bed between to luscious naked women.  My girlfriend seemed to be thoroughly passed out from whatever she had been drinking; she lay on her side oblivious to everything. I rolled over and snuggled up against her. I reached around and cupped her tit in my hand as I nestled my cock against her ass. I nuzzled the back of her neck, wishing I could do more. As I lay I felt the other girl pressing her huge firm tits against my back. I could feel her silky bush against my back. The feeling of all that warm flesh on both sides was just too much. I felt my cock getting hard against my girlfriend’s ass. She felt it too, and began rubbing herself against me. I returned the rub as she came awake. She rolled over and kissed me, deeply, as she pushed her pussy against my rock hard dick. I began to massage her tits. I draped my leg over her so I could rub against her even harder. I slipped my hand down and began caressing her pussy with my fingers. The I spread her lips and began to gently rub her clit and inner lips. She was instantly wet and began to writhe under my attentions. Suddenly I felt the other girl pull away, and then her fingers trailing down my ass. She stopped for a moment to play with my asshole, and the cupped my balls from behind. My girlfriend pushed against me urgently. My friend pulled her hand away as I rolled over onto my back. My girlfriend kissed me again sticking her tongue deeply into my mouth. She grabbed my cock and began pumping away. Her mouth moved down my throat and onto my chest. She took on of my nipples into her mouth and sucked on it, then moved to the other and nibbled for a while. She then trailed kisses all the way down my stomach. Pausing to look at me for just a second, she put her mouth over my dick and swallowed it with a gulp. She moved her head up and down, sliding her tongue along my shaft as she did. She would stop at the top of each stroke and lick the head, and then plunge down again. She was like a wild woman. I gently placed my hand on her head to encourage her. With my other hand I found my friend’s nipple and began to knead and pinch it. She writhed with pleasure. My girlfriend kept sucking until I felt like I was going to explode in her mouth. Sensing my impending explosion, she stopped. Then she climbed on me and straddled my dick. Placing the head against her sopping pussy, she plunged my cock deep inside her. She rode me as if I were a horse. She moved in a wild frenzy back and forth, bucking wildly. I grabbed her ass and every time she moved forward I pulled back and when she moved back I thrust myself deep inside her. Thrusting and pumping we were fucking like animals in the heat of pure passion. After a while I felt her body tense as she let out a loud moan that was answered by a peal of thunder. Her pussy grabbed my cock and began milking it in the spasms of her orgasm. This was too much and I came so hard the every muscle in by body tensed. I pumped load after load of my how jism into her hungry cunt. I could not believe my balls could hold so much come. I filled her up and squirted out of her. After coming in wave after wave, she slumped and then slid off me. My dick made a damp little "pop" as it came out of her pussy. I was satisfied and lay back watching the lightning through the tent and listening to the rain pattering on the nylon. The combination of powerful sex and all the alcohol she had drunk was too much for my girlfriend. I heard her gently snoring. My friend hadn’t moved. I assumed she was asleep as well. I was beginning to drift off myself when I felt my friend. Her huge breasts brushed my chest as she leaned over to swab my mouth out with the talented tongue. I slid my hand down her back, over her ass, then I stuck my finger into her pussy. It was sopping wet. She obviously had been watching and was turned on by what she had seen. She rose, and then moved down my body. She began licking my come soaked dick and balls. She lapped up the mixture of my come and my girlfriend’s pussy juice like it was a treat. She moaned as she lapped away, and she made sure she got every drop. I didn’t think I had it in me, but her licking felt so good my dick began to get hard again. When it did, she went down on me. She sucked and licked my cock like a lolly pop. After she was sure it was good and hard, she stopped. Moving back up to face me, she whispered "Fuck me." She rolled over on her back and spread he legs wide. I got between them and guided my dick to her waiting love hole. Then I rammed it in as far as it would go. She was so tight it felt like I was fucking a virgin. She moaned so loudly I was sure she was going to wake my girlfriend. I pistoned in and out of her as hard as I could, rocking her whole body. Her tits looked like mounds of Jell-O is they wobbled back and forth. She let out a little grunt each time I pumped into her. Finally she grabbed my hair and whispered "Fuck me in my ass until I come!" I pulled out and waited until she rolled over and got up on her hands and knees. I stuck my dick against her waiting ass; it was so slick with her juices that my dick just popped in. I slowly slid in and out until she relaxed, and then I began pumping in earnest. Getting fucked in the ass is her favorite, and I always loved watching my dick slide in and out of her between those lovely cheeks. The lightning flashed like a strobe as I fucked her tight asshole. She began to moan and her luscious back door started squeezing my dick harder and harder. "Come inside my ass!" she whispered just as her body began shuddering with her orgasm. My cock exploded  with cum as I flooded her ass with my hot jism. We were so hot and sweaty from the wild sex that we both got up and walked out to stand in the rain. I let the rain sluice off all of the love juices, sweat, and residue of our lovemaking. I could almost imagine steam coming off me. When I was cool and clean, I went back into the tent, dried off, and slipped back in to my snoring girlfriend. My friend climbed in behind me and we all snuggled together in the warmth of our bed. It was the best night’s sleep I have ever had. – The Pendragon 816-308-0005

Response:

Question:

But now science shows that one of the skins main functions is to transport nutrients from the surface of the skin into the blood stream. Wrong. What is wrong? This is all very accurate.

No it isn’t.  Show me a reference for this.  There are very few natural substances which regularly penetrate the skin. Products such as the diet patch and the nicotene patch were developed to use the skin’s unique delivery system.  Now it is very common to see transdermal delivery systems in a variety of health related products. Those aren’t nutrients. obviously

So what nutrients do you refer to in your initial claim? DEA is a very common ingredient in mainstream cosmetics and toiletries. DEA was shown in Studies by the National Toxicology Program to induce cancer of the liver and kidney whaen applied to the skin of mice and rats.

What evidence is there that it is causing cancer in humans? After this clear cut study you would have expected the mainstream industry to have acted on this and to have replaced DEAInstead there has been denial and atempts to trivialize the risk.

What is the risk?  While in Europe there was strong action taken to phase out the use of DEA.

And what effect has this had? erf

Response:

Got any real data to support your scary story? Every 30 seconds a child is poisoned in the U.S.  Of those children that poisoned 60% of them are under the age of 6.  The most common products involved in these poisonings are first, cosmetic and personal care products, second, prescription drugs, and third, cleaning agents.  Every year more children are poisoned to death than are accidentally killed by guns.  The American Association for Poison Control Centres reported in 1997 that 146, 661 children have been poisoned through the use of personal care products.

So?  What is your point?  Personal care products should be made edible? erf

Response:

GO JAMIE GO!! Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are some sources of toxins that we may be unaware of? Please, not more… Most people have not.  It is required by law on almost all toothpaste including children’s toothpaste, and says, "Do not swallow.  If you swallow more than the amount normally used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately."  Why is this warning required? Probably to prevent a lawsuit should someone try to live on it.  So what? It’s the toxic ingredients; fluoride, sodium laurel sulfate and sacarin. In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child. Yeah right.  The GAO concluded that ‘cosmetics are being marketed in the United States which may pose a serious health hazard to the public.’" Your point?  Should they be banned?  Or maybe we should spend a couple billion on investigating all of them. Got any real data to support your scary story? arf Every 30 seconds a child is poisoned in the U.S.  Of those children that are poisoned 60% of them are under the age of 6.  The most common products involved in these poisonings are first, cosmetic and personal care products, second, prescription drugs, and third, cleaning agents.  Every year more children are poisoned to death than are accidentally killed by guns.  The American Association for Poison Control Centres reported in 1997 that 146, 661 children have been poisoned through the use of personal care products.

Response:

For many years the use of personal care products was not a big concern. The skin was thoght to be a perfect barrier, protecting the body from the damaging elements of the environment.  But now science shows that one of the skins main functions is to transport nutrients from the surface of the skin into the blood stream. Wrong.

What is wrong? This is all very accurate. Products such as the diet patch and the nicotene patch were developed to use the skin’s unique delivery system.  Now it is very common to see transdermal delivery systems in a variety of health related products. Those aren’t nutrients.

obviously – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    However the ability of the skin to transport elements from the outside of our bodies to the inside can also create major health concerns.  If the skin transports nutrients to the blood stream and personal care products contain harmful and even carcinogenic ingredients, then many of these toxins are absorbed through the skin.  As you use these products day after day, year after year, these toxins build up in your brain, liver, kidneys and other vital organs. Great.  Now show us some evidence. erf

DEA is a very common ingredient in mainstream cosmetics and toiletries.  DEA was shown in Studies by the National Toxicology Program to induce cancer of the liver and kidney whaen applied to the skin of mice and rats.  It was shown to be rapidly absorbed through the skin, and to accumulate in the organs.  We’ve known since 1976 at least that DEA will react with nitrites which are present often as preservatives or contaminants in personal care products, to produce a carcinogen known as N-Nitrosodiethanolomine. According to the IARC (International Agency for Cancer Research) "There is signifigant evidence of a carcinogenic effect of N-Nitrosodiethanolomine in experimental animals.  Of over 44 different species in which N- Nitroso compounds have been tested, all have been susceptible.  Humans are unlikely to be the exception to this trend." (IARC), Monograph on the evaluation of the carcinogenic risk of chemicals to humans: Some N-Nitroso Compounds 17:77-82, 1978 After this clear cut study you would have expected the mainstream industry to have acted on this and to have replaced DEAInstead there has been denial and atempts to trivialize the risk.  We have had this info since 1976, but what about consumers who are exposed without any information N-Nitrosodiethanolomines in virtually every cosmetic that contains DEA. Toward the end of 1979 the FDA warned the cosmetic industry that DEA was dangerous because of this.  What do you think happened?  Nothing at all. The toiletries industry dug its heels in and ignored it.  While in Europe there was strong action taken to phase out the use of DEA. www.howtopreventcancer.com/cpc/press/sept16,00.htm www.howtopreventcancer.com/cpc/press/march23,01.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are some sources of toxins that we may be unaware of? Please, not more… Most people have not.  It is required by law on almost all toothpaste including children’s toothpaste, and says, "Do not swallow.  If you swallow more than the amount normally used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately."  Why is this warning required? Probably to prevent a lawsuit should someone try to live on it.  So what? It’s the toxic ingredients; fluoride, sodium laurel sulfate and sacarin. In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child. Yeah right.  The GAO concluded that ‘cosmetics are being marketed in the United States which may pose a serious health hazard to the public.’" Your point?  Should they be banned?  Or maybe we should spend a couple billion on investigating all of them. Got any real data to support your scary story? arf Every 30 seconds a child is poisoned in the U.S.  Of those children that

are poisoned 60% of them are under the age of 6.  The most common products involved in these poisonings are first, cosmetic and personal care products, second, prescription drugs, and third, cleaning agents.  Every year more children are poisoned to death than are accidentally killed by guns.  The American Association for Poison Control Centres reported in 1997 that 146, 661 children have been poisoned through the use of personal care products.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child. I have here a jar labelled "Hot English Mustard". On that label it has a nutritional analysis which tells me how much fat and carbohydrates I would receive if I ate 100 grams of the mustard. Such nutritional analyses are required by law for food around here. If I were to attempt to eat 100 grams of this mustard at a sitting the amount of fat would be the least of my worries, as I would have died from anaphylactic shock well before I got past the second spoonful. That’s assuming I could keep it down, of course, and even if I vomited the lot I would have severe irritation to the mucous membranes in my mouth and gullet. Dangerous  stuff, mustard.

Indeed it is.  That 100g of mustard also contains quite a bit of several botanical carcinogens, along with some metabolic toxins.  In many ways, carrots are worse.  Marigolds (historically used to colour cheese) are also dangerous when consumed in any real quantity. Of course, the entire nightshade family is toxic.  Along with the well-known monk’s hood, commonly-used members of the family include tobacco (no surprise), tomatoes and potatoes. — | I’m old enough that I don’t have to pretend to be grown up.|

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child. I have here a jar labelled "Hot English Mustard". On that label it has a nutritional analysis which tells me how much fat and carbohydrates I would receive if I ate 100 grams of the mustard. Such nutritional analyses are required by law for food around here. If I were to attempt to eat 100 grams of this mustard at a sitting the amount of fat would be the least of my worries, as I would have died from anaphylactic shock well before I got past the second spoonful. That’s assuming I could keep it down, of course, and even if I vomited the lot I would have severe irritation to the mucous membranes in my mouth and gullet. Dangerous  stuff, mustard. Indeed it is.  That 100g of mustard also contains quite a bit of several botanical carcinogens, along with some metabolic toxins.  In many ways, carrots are worse.  Marigolds (historically used to colour cheese) are also dangerous when consumed in any real quantity. Of course, the entire nightshade family is toxic.  Along with the well-known monk’s hood, commonly-used members of the family include tobacco (no surprise), tomatoes and potatoes.

Is anyone dying from eating to many carrots or mustard. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — | I’m old enough that I don’t have to pretend to be grown up.|

Response:

   However the ability of the skin to transport elements from the outside of our bodies to the inside can also create major health concerns.  If the skin transports nutrients to the blood stream and personal care products contain harmful and even carcinogenic ingredients, then many of these toxins are absorbed through the skin.  As you use these products day after day, year after year, these toxins build up in your brain, liver, kidneys and other vital organs.

Sodium ion builds up in your tissues?  Menthol? — | I’m old enough that I don’t have to pretend to be grown up.|

Response:

… and excreted before they accumulate to toxic levels. there have been autopsies done on ladies with breast cancer and the tissue was loaded with aluminum.  This is only one example.

What are the implications? DO they cause cancer when used as cosmetics? We dont know but they are suspected

Okie dokie. Does anyone get cancer from their make-up? Does anyone get cancer from smoking cigarettes?

Most certainly, there is ample evidence to support that hypothesis. Is there any evidence to support the relation between make-up and cancer? he FDA has no control over the $20 billion per year cosmetics industry, which is bigger than the alcohol and tobacco industries combined. … and interestingly about the same size as the alt med-industry. How’s that?

Are you at all worried that FDA’s control over the alt.med industry may be lacking? /mattias

Response:

  However the ability of the skin to transport elements from the outside of our bodies to the inside can also create major health concerns.  If the skin transports nutrients to the blood stream and personal care products contain harmful and even carcinogenic ingredients, then many of these toxins are absorbed through the skin.  As you use these products day after day, year after year, these toxins build up in your brain, liver, kidneys and other vital organs.

I’ve examined a fair share of brains, livers, kidneys and other vital organs, and have yet to find one that was affected by the "toxins" you commonly refer to but refuse to name. Btw, you DO know that a toxin is a product of another (micro-)organism, do you? /mattias

Response:

For many years the use of personal care products was not a big concern. The skin was thoght to be a perfect barrier, protecting the body from the damaging elements of the environment.  But now science shows that one of the skins main functions is to transport nutrients from the surface of the skin into the blood stream.

Wrong. Products such as the diet patch and the nicotene patch were developed to use the skin’s unique delivery system.  Now it is very common to see transdermal delivery systems in a variety of health related products.

Those aren’t nutrients.    However the ability of the skin to transport elements from the outside of our bodies to the inside can also create major health concerns.  If the skin transports nutrients to the blood stream and personal care products contain harmful and even carcinogenic ingredients, then many of these toxins are absorbed through the skin.  As you use these products day after day, year after year, these toxins build up in your brain, liver, kidneys and other vital organs.

Great.  Now show us some evidence. erf

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is anyone dying from eating to many carrots or mustard. No more than are dying from eating toothpaste. What’s your point? Every 30 seconds a child is poisoned in the U.S.  Of those children that are poisoned 60% of them are under the age of 6.  The most common products involved in these poisonings are first, cosmetic and personal care products, second, prescription drugs, and third, cleaning agents.  Every year more children are poisoned to death than are accidentally killed by guns.  The American Association for Poison Control Centres reported in 1997 that 146, 661 children have been poisoned through the use of personal care products.

Which is why there are warning labels on dangerous products and parents are encouraged to keep them out of the reach of children and, where children must use them as in the case of toothpaste, supervise the use. I repeat. What’s your point? (Cue mention of sodium laurel sulphate and garage floors.) Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What are some sources of toxins that we may be unaware of?    We are surrounded by toxins in our environment, many of which are difficult to avoid.  However most people use products everyday that contain potentially harmful ingredients which are readily absorbed into their bodies.  Giant corporations continually promote these highly profitable product lines through massive advertising budgets to keep sales volumes increasing Yes, but fortunately for the "dietary supplements" manufacturers, Congress has protected them from regulation. .                  You will be surprised to that products containing these toxic and potentially carcinogenic ingredients are applied to babies beginning the day they are born,  and most people continue using products with these same ingredients daily throughout their lives. Not at all.  Milk is nasty stuff, in large part due to humans being at the top of the food chain.  All of the fat-soluble environmental toxins eaten by, for instance, cattle, are passed along in mothers’ milk.                                                         I am referring to ingredients in almost all personal care and cosmetic products on the market. Oh.  Well, you have a point.  Soap is nasty stuff, and a lot of other cosmetics materials like camphor, glycerine, menthol, and petrolatum are barely better.    For example, have you ever read the warning label on your toothpaste? Most people have not.  It is required by law on almost all toothpaste including children’s toothpaste, and says, "Do not swallow.  If you swallow more than the amount normally used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately."  Why is this warning required? Because the United States is the most litigous country on Earth? It’s the toxic ingredients; fluoride, sodium laurel sulfate and sacarin. In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child. Truly?  What’s the total NaF content of a tube of toothpaste, and how does that compare to the LD50 for a 15 kg child?    Are you shocked?  To put such potentially harmful ingredients in an adult product is bad enough, but to put it in a children’s product, complete with fruit or candy flavour and add a cartoon character on the container, seems totally irresponsible.  How could our government allow this to happen? This is only the beginning of what will become a national scandal. Nothing like the storm waiting when the public finds out about DHMO.    In a September 5, 19977, U.S. Senate hearing on a bill to reform how the FDA oversees the cosmetic industry(which includes all types of personal care products including toothpaste), the following information was presented. " A study by the General Accounting Office reported that more than 125 ingredients used in cosmetics are suspected of causing cancer.  Twenty cosmetic ingredients may cause adverse effects to the nervous system, including headaches, drowsiness, and convulsions.  Twenty cosmetic ingredients are suspected of causing birth defects.  The GAO concluded that ‘cosmetics are being marketed in the United States which may pose a serious health hazard to the public.’" I told you, soap is nasty stuff.  Add things like borax (now THERE is an ugly chemical) and things get really bad.    In that same hearing, Senator Kennedy made the following statement. "In 1988, our colleague, then Congressman Wyden held landmark hearings looking at the safety of cosmetics.  The industry gave his subcommittee a list of 2,983 chemicals used in cosmetics.  The National Institute  Of Occupational Safety and Health at NIH analyzed those 2,983 chemicals and found that 884 cosmetic ingredients had been reported to the government as toxic substances.  We’ve known for 10 years that a third of cosmetic chemicals are toxic but we’ve done nothing to strengthen Federal consumer protections." So don’t eat soap.

For many years the use of personal care products was not a big concern.  The skin was thoght to be a perfect barrier, protecting the body from the damaging elements of the environment.  But now science shows that one of the skins main functions is to transport nutrients from the surface of the skin into the blood stream.  Products such as the diet patch and the nicotene patch were developed to use the skin’s unique delivery system.  Now it is very common to see transdermal delivery systems in a variety of health related products.    However the ability of the skin to transport elements from the outside of our bodies to the inside can also create major health concerns.  If the skin transports nutrients to the blood stream and personal care products contain harmful and even carcinogenic ingredients, then many of these toxins are absorbed through the skin.  As you use these products day after day, year after year, these toxins build up in your brain, liver, kidneys and other vital organs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, soap is toxic.  So are hair bleaches, many dyes, camphor, menthol, lemon oil, and a long list of herbal fragrances added to cosmetic products.  If this comes as a surprise to anyone, I’m sorry to disillusion you. — | I’m old enough that I don’t have to pretend to be grown up.|

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child. I have here a jar labelled "Hot English Mustard". On that label it has a nutritional analysis which tells me how much fat and carbohydrates I would receive if I ate 100 grams of the mustard. Such nutritional analyses are required by law for food around here. If I were to attempt to eat 100 grams of this mustard at a sitting the amount of fat would be the least of my worries, as I would have died from anaphylactic shock well before I got past the second spoonful. That’s assuming I could keep it down, of course, and even if I vomited the lot I would have severe irritation to the mucous membranes in my mouth and gullet. Dangerous  stuff, mustard.

In the digestive track you have systems set up to break down molecules that we normally eat by enzymatic processes and acid churning etc.  Obviuosly these systems are not available to the skin. com/rsoles – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Response:

Is anyone dying from eating to many carrots or mustard. No more than are dying from eating toothpaste. What’s your point?

Every 30 seconds a child is poisoned in the U.S.  Of those children that are poisoned 60% of them are under the age of 6.  The most common products involved in these poisonings are first, cosmetic and personal care products, second, prescription drugs, and third, cleaning agents.  Every year more children are poisoned to death than are accidentally killed by guns.  The American Association for Poison Control Centres reported in 1997 that 146, 661 children have been poisoned through the use of personal care products. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child. I have here a jar labelled "Hot English Mustard". On that label it has a nutritional analysis which tells me how much fat and carbohydrates I would receive if I ate 100 grams of the mustard. Such nutritional analyses are required by law for food around here. If I were to attempt to eat 100 grams of this mustard at a sitting the amount of fat would be the least of my worries, as I would have died from anaphylactic shock well before I got past the second spoonful. That’s assuming I could keep it down, of course, and even if I vomited the lot I would have severe irritation to the mucous membranes in my mouth and gullet. Dangerous  stuff, mustard. Indeed it is.  That 100g of mustard also contains quite a bit of several botanical carcinogens, along with some metabolic toxins.  In many ways, carrots are worse.  Marigolds (historically used to colour cheese) are also dangerous when consumed in any real quantity. Of course, the entire nightshade family is toxic.  Along with the well-known monk’s hood, commonly-used members of the family include tobacco (no surprise), tomatoes and potatoes. Is anyone dying from eating to many carrots or mustard.

Almost certainly.  Like tobacco, you don’t necessarily notice the slight correlation with late-in-life cancer etc.  After all, nobody’s done any long-term studies of large groups, their consumption of specific vegetables, and their long-term health.  This cuts both ways: any number of people, many in the medical community, will advise you to eat mostly or exclusively vegetable diets and especially those rich in beta carotene.  The radical fringe will promise wonderous results, and nobody can prove them wrong for lack of data.  On the other hand, there are known risk factors in many foods and there is also no hard on the risks either. — | I’m old enough that I don’t have to pretend to be grown up.|

Response:

What are some sources of toxins that we may be unaware of?    We are surrounded by toxins in our environment, many of which are difficult to avoid.  However most people use products everyday that contain potentially harmful ingredients which are readily absorbed into their bodies.  Giant corporations continually promote these highly profitable product lines through massive advertising budgets to keep sales volumes increasing

Yes, but fortunately for the "dietary supplements" manufacturers, Congress has protected them from regulation. .                  You will be surprised to that products containing these toxic and potentially carcinogenic ingredients are applied to babies beginning the day they are born,  and most people continue using products with these same ingredients daily throughout their lives.

Not at all.  Milk is nasty stuff, in large part due to humans being at the top of the food chain.  All of the fat-soluble environmental toxins eaten by, for instance, cattle, are passed along in mothers’ milk.                                                         I am referring to ingredients in almost all personal care and cosmetic products on the market.

Oh.  Well, you have a point.  Soap is nasty stuff, and a lot of other cosmetics materials like camphor, glycerine, menthol, and petrolatum are barely better.    For example, have you ever read the warning label on your toothpaste? Most people have not.  It is required by law on almost all toothpaste including children’s toothpaste, and says, "Do not swallow.  If you swallow more than the amount normally used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately."  Why is this warning required?

Because the United States is the most litigous country on Earth? It’s the toxic ingredients; fluoride, sodium laurel sulfate and sacarin.  In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child.

Truly?  What’s the total NaF content of a tube of toothpaste, and how does that compare to the LD50 for a 15 kg child?    Are you shocked?  To put such potentially harmful ingredients in an adult product is bad enough, but to put it in a children’s product, complete with fruit or candy flavour and add a cartoon character on the container, seems totally irresponsible.  How could our government allow this to happen?  This is only the beginning of what will become a national scandal.

Nothing like the storm waiting when the public finds out about DHMO.    In a September 5, 19977, U.S. Senate hearing on a bill to reform how the FDA oversees the cosmetic industry(which includes all types of personal care products including toothpaste), the following information was presented.  " A study by the General Accounting Office reported that more than 125 ingredients used in cosmetics are suspected of causing cancer.  Twenty cosmetic ingredients may cause adverse effects to the nervous system, including headaches, drowsiness, and convulsions.  Twenty cosmetic ingredients are suspected of causing birth defects.  The GAO concluded that ‘cosmetics are being marketed in the United States which may pose a serious health hazard to the public.’"

I told you, soap is nasty stuff.  Add things like borax (now THERE is an ugly chemical) and things get really bad.    In that same hearing, Senator Kennedy made the following statement.  "In 1988, our colleague, then Congressman Wyden held landmark hearings looking at the safety of cosmetics.  The industry gave his subcommittee a list of 2,983 chemicals used in cosmetics.  The National Institute  Of Occupational Safety and Health at NIH analyzed those 2,983 chemicals and found that 884 cosmetic ingredients had been reported to the government as toxic substances.  We’ve known for 10 years that a third of cosmetic chemicals are toxic but we’ve done nothing to strengthen Federal consumer protections."

So don’t eat soap. Yes, soap is toxic.  So are hair bleaches, many dyes, camphor, menthol, lemon oil, and a long list of herbal fragrances added to cosmetic products.  If this comes as a surprise to anyone, I’m sorry to disillusion you. — | I’m old enough that I don’t have to pretend to be grown up.|

Response:

Is anyone dying from eating to many carrots or mustard.

No more than are dying from eating toothpaste. What’s your point? Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Response:

Ah… There’s more… <sigh   We are surrounded by toxins in our environment, many of which are difficult to avoid.  However most people use products everyday that contain potentially harmful ingredients which are readily absorbed into their bodies. … and excreted before they accumulate to toxic levels.

there have been autopsies done on ladies with breast cancer and the tissue was loaded with aluminum.  This is only one example. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We ingest a potentially lethal dose of water every day.   For example, have you ever read the warning label on your toothpaste? Yes. Most people have not.  It is required by law on almost all toothpaste including children’s toothpaste, and says, "Do not swallow.  If you swallow more than the amount normally used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately."  Why is this warning required? It’s the toxic ingredients; fluoride, sodium laurel sulfate and sacarin. In No, if I’m not mistaken it’s sodium fluoride.

sodium fluoride, sls and sacarin fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child.   Are you shocked? Not at all. A study by the General Accounting Office reported that more than 125 ingredients used in cosmetics are suspected of causing cancer.  Twenty DO they cause cancer when used as cosmetics?

We dont know but they are suspected .  The National Institute  Of Occupational Safety and Health at NIH analyzed those 2,983 chemicals and found that 884 cosmetic ingredients had been reported to the government as toxic substances.  We’ve known for 10 years that a third of cosmetic chemicals are toxic but we’ve done nothing to strengthen Federal consumer protections." Does anyone get cancer from their make-up?

Does anyone get cancer from smoking cigarettes? he FDA has no control over the $20 billion per year cosmetics industry, which is bigger than the alcohol and tobacco industries combined. … and interestingly about the same size as the alt med-industry. How’s that? Look what you’ve made me do. I’ve almost defended the fashion industry, one of the most vile institutions on earth.

sorry about that.

Response:

 In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child.

I have here a jar labelled "Hot English Mustard". On that label it has a nutritional analysis which tells me how much fat and carbohydrates I would receive if I ate 100 grams of the mustard. Such nutritional analyses are required by law for food around here. If I were to attempt to eat 100 grams of this mustard at a sitting the amount of fat would be the least of my worries, as I would have died from anaphylactic shock well before I got past the second spoonful. That’s assuming I could keep it down, of course, and even if I vomited the lot I would have severe irritation to the mucous membranes in my mouth and gullet. Dangerous  stuff, mustard. Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Response:

What do you figure Medicine Inc. takes in, Ratz? f

** **   Most people are surprised to learn that the FDA has no control over the **$20 billion per year cosmetics industry, which is bigger than the alcohol **and tobacco industries combined. ** **… and interestingly about the same size as the alt med-industry. **How’s that? ** **Actually, only about 2/3 of the alt-med industry. I wonder how the **cosmetic industry can afford to do any research with so little income **to support it. If it is impossible for alt-med with $30 billion sales, **how much harder must it be for a business with only $20 billion? ** **Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon **Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles **Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Response:

What are some sources of toxins that we may be unaware of?

Please, not more… Most people have not.  It is required by law on almost all toothpaste including children’s toothpaste, and says, "Do not swallow.  If you swallow more than the amount normally used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately."  Why is this warning

required? Probably to prevent a lawsuit should someone try to live on it.  So what? It’s the toxic ingredients; fluoride, sodium laurel sulfate and sacarin. In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child.

Yeah right.  The GAO concluded that ‘cosmetics are being marketed in the United States which may pose a serious health hazard to the public.’"

Your point?  Should they be banned?  Or maybe we should spend a couple billion on investigating all of them. Got any real data to support your scary story? arf

Response:

  Most people are surprised to learn that the FDA has no control over the $20 billion per year cosmetics industry, which is bigger than the alcohol and tobacco industries combined. … and interestingly about the same size as the alt med-industry. How’s that?

Actually, only about 2/3 of the alt-med industry. I wonder how the cosmetic industry can afford to do any research with so little income to support it. If it is impossible for alt-med with $30 billion sales, how much harder must it be for a business with only $20 billion? Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Response:

Ah… There’s more… <sigh   We are surrounded by toxins in our environment, many of which are difficult to avoid.  However most people use products everyday that contain potentially harmful ingredients which are readily absorbed into their bodies.

… and excreted before they accumulate to toxic levels. We ingest a potentially lethal dose of water every day.   For example, have you ever read the warning label on your toothpaste?

Yes. Most people have not.  It is required by law on almost all toothpaste including children’s toothpaste, and says, "Do not swallow.  If you swallow more than the amount normally used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately."  Why is this warning required? It’s the toxic ingredients; fluoride, sodium laurel sulfate and sacarin.  In

No, if I’m not mistaken it’s sodium fluoride. fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child.   Are you shocked?

Not at all. A study by the General Accounting Office reported that more than 125 ingredients used in cosmetics are suspected of causing cancer.  Twenty

DO they cause cancer when used as cosmetics? 2,983 chemicals used in cosmetics.  The National Institute  Of Occupational Safety and Health at NIH analyzed those 2,983 chemicals and found that 884 cosmetic ingredients had been reported to the government as toxic substances.  We’ve known for 10 years that a third of cosmetic chemicals are toxic but we’ve done nothing to strengthen Federal consumer protections."

Does anyone get cancer from their make-up?   Most people are surprised to learn that the FDA has no control over the $20 billion per year cosmetics industry, which is bigger than the alcohol and tobacco industries combined.

… and interestingly about the same size as the alt med-industry. How’s that? Look what you’ve made me do. I’ve almost defended the fashion industry, one of the most vile institutions on earth. /mattias

Response:

What are some sources of toxins that we may be unaware of?    We are surrounded by toxins in our environment, many of which are difficult to avoid.  However most people use products everyday that contain potentially harmful ingredients which are readily absorbed into their bodies.  Giant corporations continually promote these highly profitable product lines through massive advertising budgets to keep sales volumes increasing.  You will be surprised to that products containing these toxic and potentially carcinogenic ingredients are applied to babies beginning the day they are born,  and most people continue using products with these same ingredients daily throughout their lives.  I am referring to ingredients in almost all personal care and cosmetic products on the market.    For example, have you ever read the warning label on your toothpaste? Most people have not.  It is required by law on almost all toothpaste including children’s toothpaste, and says, "Do not swallow.  If you swallow more than the amount normally used for brushing, seek professional help or contact a poison control center immediately."  Why is this warning required? It’s the toxic ingredients; fluoride, sodium laurel sulfate and sacarin.  In fact there are enough of these ingredients in just a 4 ounce tube of toothpaste to kill a small child.    Are you shocked?  To put such potentially harmful ingredients in an adult product is bad enough, but to put it in a children’s product, complete with fruit or candy flavour and add a cartoon character on the container, seems totally irresponsible.  How could our government allow this to happen?  This is only the beginning of what will become a national scandal.    In a September 5, 19977, U.S. Senate hearing on a bill to reform how the FDA oversees the cosmetic industry(which includes all types of personal care products including toothpaste), the following information was presented.  " A study by the General Accounting Office reported that more than 125 ingredients used in cosmetics are suspected of causing cancer.  Twenty cosmetic ingredients may cause adverse effects to the nervous system, including headaches, drowsiness, and convulsions.  Twenty cosmetic ingredients are suspected of causing birth defects.  The GAO concluded that ‘cosmetics are being marketed in the United States which may pose a serious health hazard to the public.’"    In that same hearing, Senator Kennedy made the following statement.  "In 1988, our colleague, then Congressman Wyden held landmark hearings looking at the safety of cosmetics.  The industry gave his subcommittee a list of 2,983 chemicals used in cosmetics.  The National Institute  Of Occupational Safety and Health at NIH analyzed those 2,983 chemicals and found that 884 cosmetic ingredients had been reported to the government as toxic substances.  We’ve known for 10 years that a third of cosmetic chemicals are toxic but we’ve done nothing to strengthen Federal consumer protections." The complete text of this testimony can be found on the following site: http://www.senate.gov/member/ma/kennedy/general/statements/970905fdac… s.html    Most people are surprised to learn that the FDA has no control over the $20 billion per year cosmetics industry, which is bigger than the alcohol and tobacco industries combined.  These facts were pointed out in a February 1999 series of investigative reports on the network TV program, CBS This Morning.  In the final report  of the weeklong series , they showed a stack of books 18 inches high.  Reporter Roberta Bascomb said, "These books all the regulations enforced by the FDA.  In all these thousands of  pages there are less than 30 pages total regulating the $20 billion cosmetics industry. There are more pages pertaining to the labeling of canned fruit!"    The basis for the cosmetic industry is to create "hope" and to market "image" through massive advertising.  They sell inexpensive products at huge markups.  Even with the very expensive name-brand products, the cap on the bottle normally costs more than the ingredients inside!  This creates massive profits which are reinvested to create more sales and more profits.    If you have ever looked at a womens magazine, you will realize that it is hard to find articles because of all the advertising.  It is as if the entire magazine is advertising, most of which is cosmetics and personal care products, and the articles are an after thought.  Only an extremely profitable industry could afford this amount of advertising,  With so much advertising revenue at stake don’t expect any magazine to print an ‘expose’ on the hype, false promises, and potentially harmful ingredients employed by the industry.    By the same token, don’t expect significant regulation by the government agencies to restrict the actions of the cosmetic companies.  There is too much money available for political contributions and lobbying efforts designed to protect the special interests of this powerful industry.    If the government won’t protect us, then we need to protect ourselves.

Response:

Question:

I’m starting to get very interested in sites that specialize in aggregating all of one’s personal financial data in a meaningful way.   I am also completely fed up with Intuit/Quicken/Quickbooks and their increasingly extortive and heavy-handed tactics for locking people into their software. Is MS Money any better?   What other alternatives are there?   I’ve played around a bit with Yodlee.com, which seems to offer some promise, but I’d really like someplace that did it all: aggregated bank, credit card, investment accounts, loans and mortgages, bill paying, etc.  I know that’s Intuit’s and probably MS’s strategy, but as I mentioned, I’ve had it with the Q-boys. I’m not even sure this is the best NG to post to….any pointers to others that might be relevant also welcome. TIA. — Stephen Porter Div-3 Business Services Los Angeles, CA

Response:

We would thank you for your help! Greetings Prospective Friend: We looking mainly for web design practical suggestion improvements and Education idea opinion.  The group of Education and Software [www.LearnJobsGroup.com] – designed but connection to database is under construction – members are publishers of innovative modern job skills education for distant coach assisted learning at regular text prices with great discounts and quicker delivery

Question:

anyone know of any online resources that have accounting research info and/or accounting scholars info and/or intellectual biography info. any help greatly appreciated. thank u, m.

Response:

:anyone know of any online resources that have accounting research info :and/or accounting scholars info and/or intellectual biography info. No guarantees, but try following some of the links at http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/http.html#accounting    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Timo’s  FAQ  materials  at   http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html

Response:

Question:

What is the accounting treatment for goods sold on consignment and vice versa? Substance over form must be considered when formulating the above treatment. Please advise. Thanks

In my U.S. experience, goods held on consignment are not *owned* by the holding firm and are not considered part of Balance Sheet inventory.  A separate inventory record may be maintained to control the consignment transactions.  ’Hope this helps. Al S.

Response:

Please show me the accounting entries in the books. Thanks

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the accounting treatment for goods sold on consignment and vice versa? Substance over form must be considered when formulating the above treatment. Please advise. Thanks In my U.S. experience, goods held on consignment are not *owned* by the holding firm and are not considered part of Balance Sheet inventory.  A separate inventory record may be maintained to control the consignment transactions.  ’Hope this helps. Al S.

Response:

You have to consider the substance of the transaction. Who has the the risk and rewards associated with the items in question. In order to determine this you may want to consider whether you can send the goods back to the other party with no penalty, whether or not you have to pay for the goods if unsold, obsolesence risk, etc. If you determine that it is you who has most of the risks and rewards associated with the item, then you should record them as an asset (UK treatment I think). However consignment stocks are never really that simple, and you should probably seek professional advice. Kuba

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please show me the accounting entries in the books. Thanks What is the accounting treatment for goods sold on consignment and vice versa? Substance over form must be considered when formulating the above treatment. Please advise. Thanks In my U.S. experience, goods held on consignment are not *owned* by the holding firm and are not considered part of Balance Sheet inventory.  A separate inventory record may be maintained to control the consignment transactions.  ’Hope this helps. Al S.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never felt more at home in any church than in the Catholic Church — and have attended for quite some time even though I am an Episcopalian. The problem is in joining — specifically the legal/marriage questions. I was married once before to a Catholic (though not in the church) and then divorced.  I have since remarried — also a Catholic. I’m led to understand that since the first marriage was to a Catholic but not within the Church it is reasonably easy to dismiss as a problem.  My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?

You should be grateful that a false religion has rejected you. b

– Colossians 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Response:

: : My question is this — suppose the person asking had been married to a : Catholic (not, as he says, in the Church) and divorced from that : person.  Suppose, then, that  he has remarried someone who is NOT a : Catholic, has no interest in the Catholic Church. : : How does that change the situation??? Assuming his first marriage was : anulled, how would the Church deal with the second marriage, the one : to the non-Catholic? : It depends if that person was a baptized Christian too, etc. ALL of it is complicated. Karen

Response:

The church could NOT accept your Baptism (I do not believe)

btw – The Church does not re-baptize those who are already baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – it matters not what their former church was.  In fact, anyone may Baptize – as long as they do it with pure intent, and in the name of the Trinity, and it is considered valid.  To re-baptize has been an anathema since the earliest days of the Church, and is considered somewhat of a "slap in the face" to God.  When you are baptized, you are cleansed of Original Sin, enter into the Body of Christ, and given special graces to help you live according to God’s will. It doesn’t need to be done over, it works the first time!  ;-) — God be with you, Luminaria a.k.a. Lisa, a.k.a.- Natty’s mommy http://www.javanet.com/~lanat/

Response:

Well, of course, to be perfectly frank, the answer below to the person’s problem moves into the land of the Pharisees. It shows up the worst of the Legalistic Church as opposed to the Christianity of Love. Of course they are not living in adultary except in this most narrow and, actually, artificial legalistic sense. My question is this — suppose the person asking had been married to a Catholic (not, as he says, in the Church) and divorced from that person.  Suppose, then, that  he has remarried someone who is NOT a Catholic, has no interest in the Catholic Church. How does that change the situation??? Assuming his first marriage was anulled, how would the Church deal with the second marriage, the one to the non-Catholic? Thanks for any explanation. MG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never felt more at home in any church than in the Catholic Church — and have attended for quite some time even though I am an Episcopalian. The problem is in joining — specifically the legal/marriage questions. I was married once before to a Catholic (though not in the church) and then divorced.  I have since remarried — also a Catholic. I’m led to understand that since the first marriage was to a Catholic but not within the Church it is reasonably easy to dismiss as a problem.  My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?   To be perfectly frank and honest: because you are better off not converting than converting (or pretending to convert) while living in sin with someone you at least aren’t married to, and presumably living in adultery with a woman who is married. I know that’s a harsh thing to say but it’s a question that is too important to lie about to spare people’s feelings.

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Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?

Yes it can appear frustrating.  Often one sees "procedures" and forgets that procedures are a result of doctrines and teachings not the other way around. Thus the question of your wife’s situation is very important to you. The Church is very insistant on Christ’s commandment which prohibits divorce.  So if your wife’s first marriage was indeed valid, (I still can’t figure out why people assume that just because two people broke up later in life that somehow one can find some cause of impediment at the time the marriag etook place,) then either she is a bigimist (also not allowed in the Church, again by the commandments of Christ,) or else your marriage to her is invalid in the eyes of the Church, and unless you want to life like some mixed monastic community as "brother and sister," you are living with someone in what the Church would only consider an "extra-marital" state, in sin. Yes, that is frustrating.  Think of the many natives of foreign lands where their customs had allowed poligamy being told that they could not continue to live with their dozen wives and still consider themselves a Christian in good standing. That’s the problem with conversion.  It requires … a conversion.  The casual attitude of Marriage of pro-tem legal sex is not the attitude of the Church.  Marriage, like the Priesthood, is not a temp job, a try it while you like it attitude.  Conversion does not mean wave a magic wand and everything that was is now ok. — Peace & Good! Christopher Beattie SFO KOC, SPEBSQSA, et.al. Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never felt more at home in any church than in the Catholic Church — and have attended for quite some time even though I am an Episcopalian. The problem is in joining — specifically the legal/marriage questions. I was married once before to a Catholic (though not in the church) and then divorced.  I have since remarried — also a Catholic. I’m led to understand that since the first marriage was to a Catholic but not within the Church it is reasonably easy to dismiss as a problem.  My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?  

To be perfectly frank and honest: because you are better off not converting than converting (or pretending to convert) while living in sin with someone you at least aren’t married to, and presumably living in adultery with a woman who is married. I know that’s a harsh thing to say but it’s a question that is too important to lie about to spare people’s feelings.

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Who cares? If you are married you are married. You do not become unmarried because the RCC says you were not married the right way. Matthew 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

This is a brilliant misuse of scripture  What is it your trying to demonstrate here anyway?  What this scripture says is that the RCC is right in this case.  If someone gets a divorce for any reason other than the fornication on the part of their partner, then whoever marries that partner is as guilty of adultry as the partner themselves, or as in the case of convenience both partners.  In the case this guy who (I suspect is a troll) is trying to become a Catholic there are some circumstances: A) He may still be married to his first wife (by church law). B) If Not (A), then he is married to his second wife in which case they are one, and the church has to take into account this special circumstance. anything in Scripture that tells what happens to the guy who divorces his wife……what happens to him?

If he divorces her for reasons other than fornication, then he is committing adultery, and putting  her and whoever she shacks up with in danger of committing adultery too. Especially if he re-marries, and possibly a divorced woman? Talk to me about this type of justification…..sometimes I read that passage of scripture and think that the part of ’saving for the cause of fornication’ means: so that the guy divorcing can go out and do it.

I think the point your missing here is simply this.  You can divorce your spouse for any reason and *CALL* it fornication and you might fool your neighbors and family and even the church with your charade.  In the end, however, you will have to stand before God and make an accounting of your life. He is the one judge you can not fool. This is the problem with the law and why Christ simplified the law and the commandments by declaring that he would write the law into the hearts of men.  If you are seeking to do God’s will, and not your own you won’t go looking for legal loop holes to snake your way to salvation while perverting God’s will on earth.  I think that anyone who feels they are saved because they are following the letter of the law by interpreting it in a way as to permit them to act in a way that is contrary to the spirit of the law is going to be in for a BIG surprise come judgement day.  That’s sorta like what a modern man would read it as – huh?  Cause I know of 9 Protestant ministers who have been married at least twice, if not more…….and they always seem to run off with someone in their church.  P.

The clergy are under a heavier judgement because God expects more from those who seek special status in his service. Nuff said… Before you buy.

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: My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to : Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is : that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at : least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. : : These matters are formalities. You can easily find a priest who will settle the : issue. Theologians can square the circle if they have to. As a convert to the : Church myself I welome you. Attend Mass, don’t get hung up on church : technicialities. : : Yours in Christ, : : Bill Well….but you see, your priest had quite a LOT of work to deal with the case [usually] with the chancery.  If you were NEVER a Christian before, and nor was your spouse, it’s true it’s a relatively simple case to clear up.   However, SOME cases can be quite sticky, and of course there are such things as valid indisolvable marriages. Every case is different.  Ask any priest or lay person assigned to help with the diocesan case load on the marriage tribunal if all the paperwork, interviews [& coordinating all those interviews from possible different diocese in the country and even WORLD if necessary  Are a mere "formality" and they will laugh in your face about what a simple babe in the woods you are.   It’s a thankless task!  the Marriage rules in the code of canon law are quite tricky and it’s hardly  a rubber stamp. Karen

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Who cares? If you are married you are married. You do not become unmarried because the RCC says you were not married the right way. Matthew 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Scripture that tells what happens to the guy who divorces his wife……what happens to him? Especially if he re-marries, and possibly a divorced woman? Talk to me about this type of justification…..sometimes I read that passage of scripture and think that the part of ’saving for the cause of fornication’ means: so that the guy divorcing can go out and do it. That’s sorta like what a modern man would read it as – huh?  Cause I know of 9 Protestant ministers who have been married at least twice, if not more…….and they always seem to run off with someone in their church.  P.

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My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things.

These matters are formalities. You can easily find a priest who will settle the issue. Theologians can square the circle if they have to. As a convert to the Church myself I welome you. Attend Mass, don’t get hung up on church technicialities. Yours in Christ, Bill

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about problem with annulment, etc.

I know lots of couples who have gone through this process. It depends on how much you really want to worship as a Catholic – plus of course, the annulment of your wife’s one particular marriage.  I know of one couple that lived as brother and sister for over 2 years until things settled down for them to be remarried in the church (her husband became Catholic then too).  I know of another couple who attended Mass, and were (and still are) one of the most active couples in our parish — for a period of 8 years before the annulments were granted.  The problem there was:  Previous spouses were Catholic also. I know of one woman who was a convert who wished to marry a Catholic man, however she had to go through an evaluation because she herself had previously had 3 other marriages — and one must find out why they failed.   All this to say to you – would you be willing to live as brother and sister for as long as it would take to clear up all the other things?   The church could NOT accept your Baptism (I do not believe) if you were still having sexual relations with your now-wife who needs an annulment.  I think this is where the problem may lie with not bringing you into full-communion with the church. You may have to wait until everything is straightened out.  But I see no reason why you can’t get right in there and attend classes, or whatever you have to do, or begin helping out around the church – and showing your willingness to be a part of the family. And don’t give up, or you will show the wrong intentions. And you don’t have to be Catholic to begin serving in that way at all (we have lots of people who are not Catholic that do more at our parish than they do at their own)….hope this helps.  P.

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: Who cares? If you are married you are married. Very true. : You do not become unmarried : because the RCC says you were not married the right way. Not if the marriage wasn’t actually a marriage, but only a putative one, not necessarily through anyone’s "fault." Karen

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According to our beliefs, divorce and remarriage constitutes adultery. This seems harsh to many, but you can verify it in the Catechism. It has nothing to do with your wife’s situation, but yours. If you and your wife were not married to other people, it would not be an issue. Your wife needs one annulment. Any remarriage is not a marriage, so only one annulment is possible. The best thing is to contact the local diocese (the bishop’s office) and talk to them about this. They really do try to be helpful, and I’ve known several people who have been in a similar position that say it was okay. It is certainly not the most pleasant thing to have to rehash old events, of course. Annulments simply say the people involved did not enter into a marriage. I’ll leave it to others to explain it better. Most, if not all, other denominations "forgive" marriage. Because the Church considers matrimony a sign of Christ’s love for the Church (Matthew 5, Ephesians 5), divorce and remarriage are not an option for us. Because most people marry without understanding the promises involved, annulments happen. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?

Here are some relevant links: http://www.evangelist.org/archive/htm/0213anul.htm http://www.austindiocese.org/tribunal.htm Peace, Ed www.rushman.org

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I have never felt more at home in any church than in the Catholic Church — and have attended for quite some time even though I am an Episcopalian. The problem is in joining — specifically the legal/marriage questions. I was married once before to a Catholic (though not in the church) and then divorced.  I have since remarried — also a Catholic. I’m led to understand that since the first marriage was to a Catholic but not within the Church it is reasonably easy to dismiss as a problem.  My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation?   b

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Who cares? If you are married you are married. You do not become unmarried because the RCC says you were not married the right way. Matthew 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never felt more at home in any church than in the Catholic Church — and have attended for quite some time even though I am an Episcopalian. The problem is in joining — specifically the legal/marriage questions. I was married once before to a Catholic (though not in the church) and then divorced.  I have since remarried — also a Catholic. I’m led to understand that since the first marriage was to a Catholic but not within the Church it is reasonably easy to dismiss as a problem.  My second marriage, however, is to a woman who converted to Catholicism during her marriage and then remarried. Apparently it is that speed bump that has everyone concerned. There would have to be at least one annulment, etc, on her side of things. Anyway, it is incredibly frustrating.  If I am the one who wishes to convert, why doesn’t the Church deal with that situation independent of my wife’s situation? b

– Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. http://www.ArmyOfGod.com

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Question:

Anyone can advise on the cheapest and fastest way to learn SAP for Accountants.

Response:

Anyone can advise on the cheapest and fastest way to learn SAP for Accountants.

Yes, go work for a Big 5 consulting practice. They look favorably upon CPA’s. The will provide the functional experience and education needed to learn the product. Even if you can afford the very expensive SAP courses they are useless without the hands-on experience that comes with using SAP daily or implementing it. You also have to clarify what you mean by "learn" SAP, technical or functional? I’m assuming you mean functional since you say for accountants who usually don’t have the technical skills to implement SAP.

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Question:

— I would like to find out about the handling and performance of the Cardinal from folks who have flown one.  How is handling relative to a 172 and some non-Cessna aircraft (Tiger, Trinidad, etc.).  If you’re an owner, what is the recurring maintanence on a Cardinal and how many ADs are there for the aircraft.  What is the cost of a used one (not more than 15 years old) versus a speculation on the price of a new one (if Cessna restarts prod.)

I used to be part owner of a Cardinal RG II.  It flew just fine but all in all it was pretty boring.  It is a good cross country IFR machine though.  The only downsides are the fact that you have to have a step stool to check the fuel (no struts) and the airfoil used for the wing quits flying all at once, making for an occasional hard landing.  I wouldn’t mind owning part of another one, I sold my interest when I moved to Austin. — Matt —   << Jason Hernandez, Network Engineer, IBM RISC System/6000 Division   My typing == my opinions. Use (or abuse) my verbage at your own risk!        << Fake quote of the month: "I drank WHAT?!" – Socrates.

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: — : I would like to find out about the handling and performance of the Cardinal : from folks who have flown one.  How is handling relative to a 172 and some Our club has a 1978 Cardinal RG, which I fly along with the 172’s, and our new (to the club) 1978 210.  The Cardinal RG is a little heavier than the 172, but after 5-10 hours, I think I flew it BETTER than the 172! John — —– Cray Research, Inc.     Voice: 612.683.7322             Fax: 612.683.7509

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Check the rags for prices. I’m amazed how high they’re getting and would be afraid to guess.

Just as a data point, there’s a 177RG selling (well, actually it’s not selling, but you know what I mean at a local FBO for $31k that I’d describe as a piece of junk.  (recent gear-up, bad interior, bad paint/hangar rash, one good&one bad Nav/Com, etc…). One of my instructor’s other students was recently offered $45k for his, which is *very* nice.   In TAP they run from 40-60k depending on condition/avionics/etc. Nice planes, but out of my price range.   I’ve heard various good and bad things about the straight leg models but since they are a little out of my price range right now I haven’t looked too hard at them. I recommend the original poster to get Keith’s info sheet he offered, it was quite informative. -H- — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "Here in Singapore, if someone is observed to be acting strangely the police can force them to take drug tests.  That could never happen in America." – Singapore official, in SF Chron     "And you BRAG about this?"  -Me

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— I would like to find out about the handling and performance of the Cardinal from folks who have flown one.  How is handling relative to a 172 and some non-Cessna aircraft (Tiger, Trinidad, etc.).  If you’re an owner, what is the recurring maintanence on a Cardinal and how many ADs are there for the aircraft.  What is the cost of a used one (not more than 15 years old) versus a speculation on the price of a new one (if Cessna restarts prod.)                                    Thanks,                                            David Davis

To add a bit to what Keith has said. I own a 1969 177A and have found it ideal for my needs. For the straight leg Cardinals each year saw some changes, 68 150 hp, 69 180 hp and stabilator changes, 70 airfoil and constant speed prop, 74 (I think) added cowl flaps, 75 (I think) new wheel fairings, 76 new panel, brake fairings and 24 volt electrical system were also added in the last few years 78 being the final year of manufacture. Prices seem to range from mid 20’s to low 40’s for the fixed gear model. A possible deal might be a 68 that has been converted to 180 hp and has had the stab. mods (most 68’s have had the stabilator modification which includes slots and a linkage change). I’ve seen some 68’s with the above and stall kits as well, ‘tho I haven’t seen too many lately. Most Cardinals are decked out for IFR. Insurance has been costing me about $875 per year. Total hourly costs excluding the cost of the plane (no TVM!) has been around $55, and I’ve spent a bit more on annuals than I needed to, just fixing things. There are four AD’s to note, Quick drains on all sumps, flap linkage annual inpsection, stabilator linkage inspection, and the Cessna seat rail, none of these costs anything. There are a few prop, mag, and engine AD’s depending on serial number. I truly like the way the plane handles, it’s much livelier in roll than any other Cessna, but stable in pitch and yaw.  I’ve heard of this instability problem on landing, but have yet to experience it. IMHO it stems from either the under powered 68 model or poor airspeed management during approach. I try for 90 knots on down wind, 80 on base and 70 on final, seems to work well. It is true that speed greatly effects pitch forces, they’re quite high during, say, a steep turn at speed, but low in the flair. The interesting thing is that the stab will pick the nose up at rediculously low speeds, even with just two big guys in the front, which is good for soft field work. I also think it handles cross winds the best of any thing in its class. The rudder is big and powerful, the profile low, and has stable pitch. Here in the midwest, where the wind seems to always be blowing out of the wrong direction, that means alot to me. Speed for mine is average,  I get 125 knots out it tops, 115 at 75%, but the FBO where I keep mine has a newer Archer and both planes are always neck and neck. Fuel burn is 11 to 8 gal./hr Comfort is its strong point, the only thing in its class that comes close is the Tobago which will cost much more as they will all be fairly new. The cabin is about the size of a 182 ‘cept for head room plus the doors are huge. Unfortunately the doors are my main gripe, they don’t fit too well, even after redoing the hinges. Visability is excelent, ventalation the best of any 100 series Cessna, although rear heat is a problem. Parts are plentiful, there has yet to be an item I have not been able to get, even goofy interior pieces. Load is about top of its class, almost 1000 lbs. figure 50 gals. that leaves 600 lbs for folks. The airplane is certainly a good cross country machine. Very stable in rough weather, good for IFR. The light ailerons, and good looks give it a sporty feel, but the stabilty is all Cessna. Cardinal fanatics think 76 is the vintage of choice, you get all the mods, but keep the 12 volt electrical system (easier jump starts I suppose). If you have any questions drop me some E-Mail. Good luck. Tim Kramer N30450 C-177A  

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– I would like to find out about the handling and performance of the Cardinal from folks who have flown one.  How is handling relative to a 172 and some non-Cessna aircraft (Tiger, Trinidad, etc.).  If you’re an owner, what is the recurring maintanence on a Cardinal and how many ADs are there for the aircraft.  What is the cost of a used one (not more than 15 years old) versus a speculation on the price of a new one (if Cessna restarts prod.)                                         Thanks,                                                 David Davis — David P. Davis Gain Technology 1870 Embarcadero Road Palo Alto, CA 94303-3308 Standard Disclaimer:         The above does not represent the views, opinions or policies         of Sybase Inc. or Gain Technology, A Sybase Company. Do Not Write Or Mark Below This Line        For Official Use Only

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Impressions of Cardinal handling from a Cheetah driver: I’ve been flying a Cheetah for years.  A friend of mine had a Cardinal and let me fly left seat a couple of times. For reference purposes, it was a ‘68 (with the 150 horse engine and before the stabilator mods). I found the handling to be less sporty than the Cheetah, and especially twitchy in pitch.  My understanding is that in ‘69 or ‘70 they changed (i.e. slotted) the stabilator to fix this problem.  The "less sporty" feel is probably an advantage when in the soup.  The Cardinal is more responsive than the Arrow I used to own, which I always thought drove like a truck.  Rock solid on the guages though… I also found the cabin quite roomy and comfortable, especially compared to the Cheetah which can be a little tight.  If I ever sell my Cheetah, a Cardinal will be on the replacement list (along with other Cheetahs and Tigers).  I do recommend the 180HP version.  Be especially wary of 1600TT ‘68 birds.  The original engine had a 1600 hour TBO due to smaller a 2000 hour TBO next time around. Jim Chabucos Cheetah N26191 (2nd Cheetah and still happy…)

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Path: falcon.bgsu.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.resto n.ans.net!agate!ames!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl2.crl.com!not-for-mail

Flew a cardinal for over 200 hours. It is much nicer than a 172 IMHO.  Roomier, faster, more stable when on guages and with more visibility.  I flew mine from Ohio to San Diego and back on one of my trips.  Took off from elevations of 7000 feet and flew some at 12000 to clear mountains.  As long as the plane is properly loaded, no problem.  Mine was a 73.  Do not buy anything older than a 70 and a 73 or better is desirable.  The engine was changed to 180 in 69 and the wing was changed in 70.  Cessna had a decent airplane but it cost more to produce and did not fly like a 152-172 transition. Department of Accounting and MIS                                419-372-8351 Bowling Green State University                              FAX 419-372-2875 Bowling Green, OH   43403 Happy Flying               Comanche 7836P          Wood County Airport (1G0)

Response:

I would like to find out about the handling and performance of the Cardinal from folks who have flown one.  How is handling relative to a 172 and some non-Cessna aircraft (Tiger, Trinidad, etc.).  If you’re an owner, what is the recurring maintanence on a Cardinal and how many ADs are there for the aircraft.  What is the cost of a used one (not more than 15 years old) versus a speculation on the price of a new one (if Cessna restarts prod.)

Gosh, thanks for asking. I’ve flown a fair number of planes and find the Cardinal to be a nice balance for my flying habits. The Tigers are a bit sportier but I fly IFR. It’s more responsive than any other Cessna. You can’t stall the ailerons like in a 152. A Cardinal has a wide speed range between stall and cruise, so trim is important and can take some work. It’s worth it, but at first you will think you’ll never get it trimmed at cruise. Once you do it stays well. The ‘68 had a different wing (along with lots of other different things) so flys quite differently. The most profound difference between the Cardinal and most other Cessnas is that it gets much lighter in pitch at slower speeds, almost to a fault. Although it will not build strong muscles 12 ways like a 182, it does require that you be aware of yoke position as well as force just as you get to the stall in the flare. In my opinion it’s this attribute which has gained the Cardinal a reputation for ‘crow-hopping’ on landing. Everyone seems to do it once or twice, usually in a crosswind when trying to force it onto the ground. The recovery cycle is 180 degrees out of phase with other Cessnas. A shot of power fixes the problem, but kills the ego. Use the power. The C-177 has been good about AD’s, with some for the Mag, one on the boost pump, a required addition of yet another drain (a simple one, and stupid since it’s added at other than the low point of the system. Cardinals already have a low point drain.) There are a few things too look for, I have a standard set of text I’ll email you if you are interested. No spar or seat belt horror stories on this model. Bottom line, it’s been a great plane for us after 7 years, with low maintenance costs, good performance (143 knots at 10.2 GPH), good short/rough field manners for it’s class and a high level of comfort for a family of 4 and a load of baggage. A Mooney with room. (Oh, ok, an older Mooney with room) Check the rags for prices. I’m amazed how high they’re getting and would be afraid to guess. I’d be happy to ramble on… KP Motorola, Inc, but my opinions…       48W591 Immelman Arlington Heights, IL                   Hampshire, Illinois 60140 (708) 632-2959                          (708) 683-4777       Ham N9GLP                               Cessna 177-RG 33267                  

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Any there any current or previous owners of the 177RG Cessna Cardinal. I am seriously considering purchasing one.  I am a newly rated instrument private pilot, and expect to fly 150 -200 hours per year.  I would like to hear any comments pro or con concerning the cardinal. Thanks, Bruce

Response:

Any there any current or previous owners of the 177RG Cessna Cardinal.

Stop by the Cardinal web site  http://cardinal.mlink.net There’s a lot of information on the airplane, info on the Cardinal mail list, which is quite active, and on the Cardinal Club, whose annual fly-in will be in Colorado Springs Sept 9-13. – Rod Farlee

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Any there any current or previous owners of the 177RG Cessna Cardinal. I am seriously considering purchasing one.  I am a newly rated instrument private pilot, and expect to fly 150 -200 hours per year.  I would like to hear any comments pro or con concerning the cardinal.

I’ve had a 1977 Cardinal RG for the last three years. I love it. It was a good compromise between ecomomy and performance. Airplanes in the RG class include the Piper Arrow and the Mooney M20J. All have the same powerplant, a 200 HP fuel-injected IO-360. All have comparable payloads. All probably have comparable operating costs. My Cardinal trues out between 130-140 KTAS at about 10 GPH and has about 1,000 lbs of payload capacity. The advantage of the Arrow is that it is a low-wing. The advantage of the M20J is that it is fast. The Cardinal is the roomiest of the bunch, and has two doors which are probably bigger than any in a single. The Cardinal has the largest payload and the lowest purchase price. For us, the only disadvantage would be that if our family grows beyond one kid and one dog we will need either a Lance or a 210. Get a good pre-purchase inspection. Make sure all the ADs are complied with. There are lots of Cardinal resources. Check out the Cardinal page at http://cardinal.mlink.net. There is also a Cardinal mailing list at their monthy magazine, notices about their seminars, and access to their technical staff at http://www.cessna.org. I first read about Cardinals and lots of other airplanes in the Aviation Consumer’s Guide to Used Aircraft, which is probably the best catalog of light aircraft around. Good luck, –Dan Arias — San Jose, California, USA

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I’ve owned N52636, a 1977 C-177RG, since 1985, and I couldn’t be happier.  I have flown it just over 2000 hours.  My plane trues out at 145 – 150  knots at 8000 feet at 75% power burning a little over 10 gal/hr.  It will carry about 650 lbs payload with full fuel (60 gal). The Cardinal RG is a very good high altitude cruiser.  I normally cruise at 10,000 ft westbound or 11,000 ft eastbound at full throttle and 2400 RPM. In this configuration I get 140 – 145  knots using about 9.5 gal/hr.  If I am not in a hurry, I turn the RPM down to 2300 and get 138 – 140 knots at 9.0 gal/hr. Cruise speed is about five knots faster when lightly loaded compared to near gross weight.  I can increase cruise speed by about five knots by leaving the right front seat empty and having my passengers sit in back.  The weight and balance envelope is very wide, and it is difficult to load the Cardinal outside the back limit.  In fact, I have played around with the weight and balance charts and have found that you can put two 170 pound pax in the backseat, 120 pounds baggage, and no pilot, and still be within the envelope. The gear is relatively problem free ** IF** all the AD’s and the Cessna service bulletins are complied with.  One key Cessna Service Bulletin is the one that tells you to replace the high pressure hydraulic hoses at a certain interval (eight years, I think).  If you don’t do that one, a hose will burst and you will probably have a gear-up landing. I have flown the Arrow and the Mooney.  Both have essentially the same engine as the Cardinal RG.  The Cardinal RG is faster than the Arrow, but slower than the Mooney.  The biggest physical difference (other than high vs. low wing) is in the size of the cabin.  The Cardinal RG is much bigger, and it has two wide doors that are very easy to get in and out of.  The other is the ease of loading.  Being a high wing, the Cardinal RG has a much wider CG envelope, and it shades you from the sun. The Cardinal RG is also a pretty good instrument ship.  It is responsive without being hard to handle.  I would say the a C-182RG is a little better, but it is not as responsive and is much more expensive to operate.  I highly recommend an autopilot.  Mine has a C-300A autopilot, and it works very well, but I have heard of lots of problems with this particular autopilot from other people.  I have flown my plane about 300 hours of IFR in IMC conditions. I think you would be happy with a Cardinal RG, and I highly recommend it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any there any current or previous owners of the 177RG Cessna Cardinal. I am seriously considering purchasing one.  I am a newly rated instrument private pilot, and expect to fly 150 -200 hours per year.  I would like to hear any comments pro or con concerning the cardinal. Thanks, Bruce

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