Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do I record a double entry increase in equity to my rental property value fixed asset account based on current housing market conditions?  Using Quickbooks. Create an account in your equity section called something like "FMV Adjustment", or "Mark to Market", then record a journal entry that will Debit (increase) the Fixed asset account and Credit (also an increase) the FMV Adjustment account. I would recommend using a contra asset account called allowance for mark to market, rather than debiting the fixed asset account. The statments should disclose the fact that the property is being reported at fair market value. I believe that you will find that mark-to-market applies only to tax treatment for security traders as well as commodities dealers and traders. It has nothing at all to do with the valuation of real estate. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

 I was answering the question that was asked, which was "How do I do this?"  Others in the thread had already answered questions that weren’t asked. Bill Lentz, CPA, M. S. Accounting

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do I record a double entry increase in equity to my rental property value fixed asset account based on current housing market conditions?  Using Quickbooks. Create an account in your equity section called something like "FMV Adjustment", or "Mark to Market", then record a journal entry that will Debit (increase) the Fixed asset account and Credit (also an increase) the FMV Adjustment account. I would recommend using a contra asset account called allowance for mark to market, rather than debiting the fixed asset account. The statments should disclose the fact that the property is being reported at fair market value. I believe that you will find that mark-to-market applies only to tax treatment for security traders as well as commodities dealers and traders. It has nothing at all to do with the valuation of real estate. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation  I was answering the question that was asked, which was "How do I do this?"  Others in the thread had already answered questions that weren’t asked. Bill Lentz, CPA, M. S. Accounting

From the answer you gave, it appears that you are telling the original poster who asked the question, that it is proper to make such an adjustment to the fair market value of real estate. It is not in compliance with generally accepted accounting principles to do this, though, as you know. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do I record a double entry increase in equity to my rental property value fixed asset account based on current housing market conditions?  Using Quickbooks. Create an account in your equity section called something like "FMV Adjustment", or "Mark to Market", then record a journal entry that will Debit (increase) the Fixed asset account and Credit (also an increase) the FMV Adjustment account. I would recommend using a contra asset account called allowance for mark to market, rather than debiting the fixed asset account. The statments should disclose the fact that the property is being reported at fair market value. I believe that you will find that mark-to-market applies only to tax treatment for security traders as well as commodities dealers and traders. It has nothing at all to do with the valuation of real estate.

I agree after seeing this post. However I still would use some type of contra account rather than debiting the asset account. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do I record a double entry increase in equity to my rental property value fixed asset account based on current housing market conditions?  Using Quickbooks. Create an account in your equity section called something like "FMV Adjustment", or "Mark to Market", then record a journal entry that will Debit (increase) the Fixed asset account and Credit (also an increase) the FMV Adjustment account. I would recommend using a contra asset account called allowance for mark to market, rather than debiting the fixed asset account. The statments should disclose the fact that the property is being reported at fair market value. I believe that you will find that mark-to-market applies only to tax treatment for security traders as well as commodities dealers and traders. It has nothing at all to do with the valuation of real estate. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation  I was answering the question that was asked, which was "How do I do this?"  Others in the thread had already answered questions that weren’t asked. Bill Lentz, CPA, M. S. Accounting From the answer you gave, it appears that you are telling the original poster who asked the question, that it is proper to make such an adjustment to the fair market value of real estate. It is not in compliance with generally accepted accounting principles to do this, though, as you know. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

I’m not sure I agree that my answer implied that it was proper, but I probably should have added a reference to the other responses or a disclaimer that writing up assets is generally not done, and that if he was giving the FS to a third party he should appropriately disclose any such adjustments.  And, as you know, many users find (appropriately supported) fair market value on real estate to be a useful financial statement presentation. But I do think that too often we accountants tend to answer questions with "You can’t do that." rather than try and find out what the individual is trying to do and helping them do it. Bill

Response:

The bottom line is, who/whatever is your perceived market target, you’re still interested in selling your product…nothing wrong w/that, but it’s not a usenet function….

Response:

"selling a dubious M2M web service"? You have got to be kidding, but how could you – you do not even know what you are talking about. First of all STEP FORWARD is  … (see below). We are not interested in "selling it" in the normal sense; however, we are interested in making the accounting profession aware of STEP FORWARD so that professional accountants who have the ability to think logically and who have the desire to provide custom software solutions to their employers or clients will consider it as a possible tool. We realize, of course, that the majority of accountants, especially those in public practice, are focused on other aspects of the profession (e.g. Taxation, Audit, etc.). The very notion of being able to get involved in business reengineering and developing applications for clients that are not only specific to their needs but even to  management’s personal style has never occured to them, because up to now it was extremely costly andthe private preserve of the "big" accounting firms. Furthermore, if they do get involved in "software", they usually tend to have picked a singular of-the-shelf package (one-size-fits-all, now you got to be kidding) that they are comfortable with and their approach is tentamount to saying "here is the solution, what’s your problem?". However, all of this can change in the hands of the right people with STEP FORWARD. (And GAAP-compliance is in the hands of the configurator – specific to the jurisdiction in which they operate.) So the people that we are looking for are the real rare "nuggets" – professional accountants and consultants who have a fire burning in their cuts to help their clients pursue their visions, achieve their dreams, without creating a nightmare. These may be people who already are involved in providing this type of professional service or those who would like to expand their professional services. Once found, we will work with them to achieve their objectives. —– This should be of interest to all Accountants who have a need for custom-software that they themselves can configure without writing a single line of code because no formal programming skills are required. Gestalt Corporation announces the release of STEP FORWARD – a multi-platform development framework for database-centric accounting and general information management applications. STEP FORWARD is a graphical tool to create relational databases, GUIs for SQL-based data input/output, executable flowcharts that control data input, reports and processes. It can create GAAP-compliant accounting systems with automatic transaction generation and other functionalities. STEP FORWARD includes a graphical Report Generator and its client/server version ("Navigator") allows publishing reports over the Web. The framework can be expanded by including user-developed code, and currently supports MS SQL Server 2000, Sybase, Mimer and McKoi RDBMS. Runs on Windows NT/2000/XP and Red Hat Linux v9. You can learn more about STEP FORWARD, view video clips, documentation and download the Explorer demo, a Tutorial, and a "Private Records" suite of applications – all of them free at www.gestalt.com. If you have any further questions or comments, please contact us by telephone or through our Contact page at www.gestalt.com. Wolfgang Rochow, CGA Gestalt Corporation Calgary, AB, Canada Tel: 403-252-3282

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lifestyle Accounting may be more practical, but it does not comply with generally accepted accounting principles as they exist in the United States. Accountants are bound to comply or stand the chance of losing their license. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation I think "Wolfgang Rochow" was more interested in selling a dubious M2M web service than in correctly answering the question! " http://www.gestalt.com/ Our Vision To be the Pilot to Captains of Enterprise, guiding them to achieve their dreams. Using STEP FORWARD to Help Make Your Dreams a Reality Gestalt will train your people, work with and guide you in defining your Vision and your Dreams, assist you in developing the business logic and processes that will help you in this quest, through Catalytic Mentoring T. Our Passion is People, Our Strength is Systems, the result is Performance Beyond Perceived Potential T Following through on this thread only proves that "there is no accounting for accountants." Let’s be practical. Assume that I bought a house 30 years ago for $30,000, it’s paid for in full, and it has a current market value of $300,000. Let’s further assume that I decide to obtain a new mortgage to use the proceeds for whatever purpose. What do you think the banker will do? Use my original cost or the current market value in determining the maximum size of the mortgage Obviously, the market value (assuming that I have the ability to repay)? Look at the presentation proposed in Lifestyle Accounting (available free of charge as part of "Private Records" on www.gestalt.com . Here the actual acquisition is carried on the Balance Sheet at cost; however, the Increase in Market Value in shown as a separate account immediately after the cost item, and the offset account is shown as a separate entry in the Equity section as "Increase of Real Estate Market Value over Cost". While a footnote might have technically conveyed the same message, using the visual impact of two valuation accounts registers on the brain much more effectively. And adequate disclosure is not compromised. Go figure. Wolfgang Rochow, CGA Calgary, AB, Canada (iforsyth) How do I record a double entry increase in equity to my rental property value fixed asset account based on current housing market conditions?  Using Quickbooks. Create an account in your equity section called something like "FMV Adjustment", or "Mark to Market", then record a journal entry that will Debit (increase) the Fixed asset account and Credit (also an increase) the FMV Adjustment account. I would recommend using a contra asset account called allowance for mark to market, rather than debiting the fixed asset account. The statments should disclose the fact that the property is being reported at fair market value. I believe that you will find that mark-to-market applies only to tax treatment for security traders as well as commodities dealers and traders. It has nothing at all to do with the valuation of real estate. I agree after seeing this post. However I still would use some type of contra account rather than debiting the asset account. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation A contra account by definition is an account that is deducted from something. This being true, I don’t see how this could work even if it were in compliance with generally accepted accounting principles-which it is not. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation A contra account can go both ways. If the asset account is to be reported at fair market value then for control purposes it is advisable to record any change in the valuation though the use of an account other than the one used for historical cost. If the term contra seems to contra then I sugest a brother or sister account. Would you please for all of us, tell us what all the contra accounts are by name in financial statement presentation? I don’t think you will find ANY that adds to ANY account. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …. But I do think that too often we accountants tend to answer questions with "You can’t do that." rather than try and find out what the individual is trying to do and helping them do it. Isn’t that precisely what got a bunch of fairly prominent accountants/firms (and their clients) into real trouble recently??? I don’t think my responses rise to the level of Enron – …and I don’t (and hope I didn’t infer directly) either–just struck me as a significant point to be made that "the customer isn’t <always right" is a worthwhile reminder in these times….again, I was meaning it in a more general sense than as a <direct response to this particular instance–

Since my field is now retail (accounting), I can tell you that the customer is seldom right (grin), but we allways tell them that they are. I left public accounting before the "customer is always right" attitude became so prevalent, but I could certainly see it heading that way.  The last client that i was on was a large international entity that had some significant reporting issues that required direct consultation with the SEC several times, and they were pretty much inclined to toe the line.  Accordingly, we didn’t face a lot of the pressure that many other s faced. Bill

Response:

Lifestyle Accounting may be more practical, but it does not comply with generally accepted accounting principles as they exist in the United States. Accountants are bound to comply or stand the chance of losing their license. Wayne Brasch, CPA, M. S. Taxation

I think "Wolfgang Rochow" was more interested in selling a dubious M2M web service than in correctly answering the question! " http://www.gestalt.com/ Our Vision To be the Pilot to Captains of Enterprise, guiding them to achieve their dreams. Using STEP FORWARD to Help Make Your Dreams a Reality Gestalt will train your people, work with and guide you in defining your Vision and your Dreams, assist you in developing the business logic and processes that will help you in this quest, through Catalytic Mentoring

Question:

Because it’s our money and nobody cares more about our money than we do.  I know I haven’t gotten the value I deserve from the taxes/fees I pay on any government level. DGG "I’ll say it again:  BOYCOTT DGG" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I would love to know why .. I won’t be getting one because my children are all grown, but I would still like to know why rebates are even in the picture right now with the economy the way it is. Spidey Yes, The Advanced Child Tax Credit checks began going out last Friday. They’ll go out over a three week period, so, if you don’t get one, just wait. You ~do~ understand why they are sending these checks out, and who qualifies to receive one, right?

Response:

I would love to know why .. I won’t be getting one because my children are all grown, but I would still like to know why rebates are even in the picture right now with the economy the way it is.

The reason that checks are being cut is a political one. In the past, tax cuts hit home, for the most part, when the return was filed, and you got a larger refund, or owed that much less. Today, they want to "stimulate the economy" by actually giving you some more in your paycheck, and a check for the advanced tax credit. In the long run, since the government would spend the money in the economy in some manner, this is just a timing gimmick.  Most likely the economy is going up or down regardless of whether anyone got a $400 check next week. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC Athens, Georgia

Response:

Because it’s our money and nobody cares more about our money than we do.  I know I haven’t gotten the value I deserve from the taxes/fees I pay on any government level.

Well,  this IS an accounting forum, but let’s just say that we all take for granted the services provided by the government that are paid for by our tax dollars. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC Athens, Georgia

Response:

Thank you Paul, that was a very logical and obviouse answer. I’ve thought of that too, however ……. $400.00 per person (who have children) isn’t enough to stimulate a banker let alone an economy. If they were to put all of those tax dollars together, perhaps they would be able to do something useful, such as: Feed, House, Clothe, Teach, Educate, etc. As we speak … the homeless … will be getting their notices from shelters, transitional housing, medical assistance, daycare, and the list goes on. Because of no money … because of the government cut backs … because our economy is so poor, we are going to be kicking the homeless and the poor out on the streets with no food or health care. But we can turn around and give young parents $400.00? Doesn’t make sense to me. — Spidey

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would love to know why .. I won’t be getting one because my children are all grown, but I would still like to know why rebates are even in the picture right now with the economy the way it is. The reason that checks are being cut is a political one. In the past, tax cuts hit home, for the most part, when the return was filed, and you got a larger refund, or owed that much less. Today, they want to "stimulate the economy" by actually giving you some more in your paycheck, and a check for the advanced tax credit. In the long run, since the government would spend the money in the economy in some manner, this is just a timing gimmick.  Most likely the economy is going up or down regardless of whether anyone got a $400 check next week. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC Athens, Georgia

Response:

Can anyone tell me when my family should expect the tax rebate checks from the IRS that was supposedly passed through Congress? Many people are asking me, but I haven’t heard anything about it beyond the talk of the government wanting to do that several months ago. Thanks

Response:

Yes, The Advanced Child Tax Credit checks began going out last Friday.  They’ll go out over a three week period, so, if you don’t get one, just wait.   You ~do~ understand why they are sending these checks out, and who qualifies to receive one, right? — Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC Athens, Georgia   Can anyone tell me when my family should expect the tax rebate checks from the IRS that was supposedly passed through Congress? Many people are asking me, but I haven’t heard anything about it beyond the talk of the government wanting to do that several months ago.   Thanks

Response:

I would love to know why .. I won’t be getting one because my children are all grown, but I would still like to know why rebates are even in the picture right now with the economy the way it is. Spidey

Yes, The Advanced Child Tax Credit checks began going out last Friday. They’ll go out over a three week period, so, if you don’t get one, just wait. You ~do~ understand why they are sending these checks out, and who qualifies to receive one, right? — Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC Athens, Georgia

Can anyone tell me when my family should expect the tax rebate checks from the IRS that was supposedly passed through Congress? Many people are asking me, but I haven’t heard anything about it beyond the talk of the government wanting to do that several months ago. Thanks

Response:

I think it’s because President Bush wants to stimulate the economy by letting people get a hold of money and turn around any buy stuff. Christine

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would love to know why .. I won’t be getting one because my children are all grown, but I would still like to know why rebates are even in the picture right now with the economy the way it is. Spidey Yes, The Advanced Child Tax Credit checks began going out last Friday. They’ll go out over a three week period, so, if you don’t get one, just wait. You ~do~ understand why they are sending these checks out, and who qualifies to receive one, right? — Paul A. Thomas, CPA, PC Athens, Georgia Can anyone tell me when my family should expect the tax rebate checks from the IRS that was supposedly passed through Congress? Many people are asking me, but I haven’t heard anything about it beyond the talk of the government wanting to do that several months ago. Thanks

Response:

Question:

I’m tired. There are some things I used to ignore or tolerate, but I’ve reached my breaking point, and I just can’t take this anymore. Don’t get me wrong, it’s nothing to do with personal issues or economy or family life or health or anything. I’m tired of what I see around me. Maybe it’s time for that little boy who yelled out the fact that the emperor is not wearing any clothes to come back and yell some more. First of all, don’t misunderstand me. I’m not racist or prejudiced or a hatemonger. I’m just tired of seeing what’s happening around me. I also know that times change and the planet evolves, but at some point, I have to yell out the old clich

Question:

top posting is not a sin, it is a life style choice. Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here? Remember top posting? Well, it’s not the only possible sin on Usenet…  Senseless cross-posting is an equal albeit different evil… — http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/emacs.html Signs of a Klingon Programmer #7: "Klingon function  calls do not have ‘parameters’ — they have ‘arguments’ — and they ALWAYS WIN THEM."

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

au contraire, it’s a fine art. C’est merde. Au revoir. **PLONK**

Now that hurt. You take that back! Shawn Pickrell

Response:

I’m glad to hear it. The worst thing you could possibly do is post a message to more than one Usenet newsgroup at once.

I agree entirely. The same punishment should be given to cross-posters as should be given to top-posters. Shawn Pickrell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heaven forfend! Uncle Davey

Response:

bye bye Shawn the X poster

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m glad to hear it. The worst thing you could possibly do is post a message to more than one Usenet newsgroup at once. I agree entirely. The same punishment should be given to cross-posters as should be given to top-posters. Shawn Pickrell Heaven forfend! Uncle Davey

Response:

Is there any reason to cross post other than to troll a newsgroup? In all seriousness, yes. For example, much of the subject matter of alt.love and alt.romance is nearly identical. So if you are posting about relationships to those two groups, then it is perfectly fine to crosspost there.

So why not just choose one newsgroup?    My newsgroup reader alerts me when there is crossposting.  I just tell it to post to the current group.     "Live long and prosper." To reply remove no spam from my e-mail address. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Is there any reason to cross post other than to troll a newsgroup?

In all seriousness, yes. For example, much of the subject matter of alt.love and alt.romance is nearly identical. So if you are posting about relationships to those two groups, then it is perfectly fine to crosspost there. Shawn Pickrell

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here? Davey, perhaps you might be of assistance in answering this man’s question. It’s called acquisition accounting. Also known as consolidation of financial statements by the acquisition method. We hope to generate a lot of goodwill.

I think we’re doing this already! I think someone should get Goddessbaybee and tell her we’ve got an idea to make this group more profitable! Shawn Pickrell

Response:

Apparently this rather simplistic ploy is considered to be great fun by some people out there who clearly have too much time on their hands. Ed, Thanks for the explanation. I haven’t been paying a lot of attention to the "groups" adressing line lately.  That has just changed.

I’m glad to hear it. The worst thing you could possibly do is post a message to more than one Usenet newsgroup at once. Heaven forfend! Uncle Davey

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here? Trying to coax other readers into reacting for one’s own entertainment is a fairly common passtime on the Usenet news. It just is a variation of trolling. A bit more funny than the average, this time though, since there has been some clever wordplay and personal baiting included, even if the latter has been trivially obvious. Usually there just is straight uncouth abuse, but guys have at least made an effort at a flippant wittiness. Nevertheless, it is not worth being drawn in. But the soc.singles crossposting ploy also is rather ineffective, since it is so easily avoided if one so chooses. The syntax varies depending on the newsreader program used, but basically the avoidance criterion to put in one’s alt.accounting filter file is this simple (displayed in a Unix rn-type notation):    /^Newsgroups:.*soc.singles/hj Apropos, while on the subject of wanton crossposting. You will probably have noticed that various spam postings often have a lot of newsgroups included at one go. That makes them easy to filter with the following kind of rules:   /^Newsgroups: .*,.*,.*,.*,.*,.*,.*,/hj    All the best, Timo

But now, you see, you’ll have to put in other lines for your filters. Shawn Pickrell

Response:

au contraire, it’s a fine art.

C’est merde. Au revoir. **PLONK**

Response:

Is there any reason to cross post other than to troll a newsgroup?

That’s a very good question, let me throw it open to the floor. Uncle Davey

Response:

Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here? Trying to coax other readers into reacting for one’s own entertainment is a fairly common passtime on the Usenet news. It just is a variation of trolling. A bit more funny than the average, this time though, since there has been some clever wordplay and personal baiting included, even if the latter has been trivially obvious. Usually there just is straight uncouth abuse, but guys have at least made an effort at a flippant wittiness. Nevertheless, it is not worth being drawn in.

Spoken like a true academic. If you had, like, a real accounting job, you would let us draw you in with good grace. But the soc.singles crossposting ploy also is rather ineffective, since it is so easily avoided if one so chooses. The syntax varies depending on the newsreader program used, but basically the avoidance criterion to put in one’s alt.accounting filter file is this simple (displayed in a Unix rn-type notation):

It’s even easier that that, Professore. It just takes discipline to ignore and then it doesn’t matter even if you open a post and see there is trolling in it. But so few people have that discipline. You could do your stewdents a real favour by teaching it to them.    /^Newsgroups:.*soc.singles/hj

I can just as easily crosspost from any other regularly frequented group. Or we will take up residence and not even need to crosspost at all. But one thing I like about you already is that you share your knowledge. That’s good. I certainly haven’t come to expect that from academics and think you must be the best of a bad bunch. Apropos, while on the subject of wanton crossposting. You will probably have noticed that various spam postings often have a lot of newsgroups included at one go. That makes them easy to filter with the following kind of rules:   /^Newsgroups: .*,.*,.*,.*,.*,.*,.*,/hj    All the best, Timo

Is it true that the University of Tartu was one of the oldest Universities in Europe? What do you think, were Estonian and Finnish more mutually intelligible at that time than they are now or less so? Uncle Davey

Response:

Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here? — Todd Stephens Davey, perhaps you might be of assistance in answering this man’s question.

It’s called acquisition accounting. Also known as consolidation of financial statements by the acquisition method. We hope to generate a lot of goodwill. Uncle Davey

Response:

Apparently this rather simplistic ploy is considered to be great fun by some people out there who clearly have too much time on their hands.

Ed, Thanks for the explanation. I haven’t been paying a lot of attention to the "groups" adressing line lately.  That has just changed. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

Is there any reason to cross post other than to troll a newsgroup?   Well, it’s not the only possible sin on Usenet…  Senseless cross-posting is an equal albeit different evil…

"Live long and prosper." To reply remove no spam from my e-mail address. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Apparently this rather simplistic ploy is considered to be great fun by some people out there who clearly have too much time on their hands. au contraire, it’s a fine art.

If done carefully, it can be a fine art. More typically, it is done by folks that are decidedly NOT "artistes," and is just lame. [Note that some artists work in oils, and some, in fact, use chainsaws, and there can be subtlety in something that _appears_ unsubtle.  But the _usual_ crossposting is just rubbish...] — http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/advocacy.html "I have never  seen the inside of the building  at Microsoft where the top executives hang out, but I have this fantasy that in the hallways, at regular intervals, big red alarm boxes are bolted to the wall. Each contains a large red button  protected by a windowpane. A metal hammer dangles on  a chain next to  it. Above is  a big sign reading:  IN THE EVENT OF A CRASH IN MARKET SHARE, BREAK GLASS." — Neal Stephenson

Response:

Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here?

Remember top posting? Well, it’s not the only possible sin on Usenet…  Senseless cross-posting is an equal albeit different evil… — http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/emacs.html Signs of a Klingon Programmer #7: "Klingon function  calls do not have ‘parameters’ — they have ‘arguments’ — and they ALWAYS WIN THEM."

Response:

Different people enjoy different forms of entertainment? Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here? — Todd Stephens

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here?

It’s a normal move to disrupt groups.  It depends on most posters not paying attention to the newsgroups lines when replying to a post–so, for instance, if I added a group to this post (which I didn’t), the vast majority of those replying would end up getting cross-posted to the groups I list no matter how relevant (or irrelevant) the post may be. In my newsreader, the groups to be posted to appear at the top of the screen and can be rather easily edited.  I believe most other newsreaders (even Outlook Express <grin) allow for such editing as well.  However, a reader has to take the time to actually do that, and most don’t.

Response:

Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here?

I would note that alt.accounting has both been a source of intentionally created off-topic spillover into another group (see the "Does anyone fall for this?" thread, a branch of which has been directed to soc.singles) as well as now a victim of the same.  You’ll also note a bit (OK, a lot <grin) of similarity in the identity of the poster initiating the cross-posts.   It’s actually a rather simple game–you jump into a thread that generates heat, make some comments sure to elicit a response from group regulars (insult accountants here, do appropriate insult for another group), and then add a totally irrelevant group to the newsgroups lines.  Eventually those in the other groups begin complaining to those posting and all kinds of things can get rolling. Apparently this rather simplistic ploy is considered to be great fun by some people out there who clearly have too much time on their hands.

Response:

Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here? — Todd Stephens

Davey, perhaps you might be of assistance in answering this man’s question. HTH, Shawn Pickrell

Response:

Remember top posting? Well, it’s not the only possible sin on Usenet…  Senseless cross-posting is an equal albeit different evil…

Everything we’re saying here is on topic for soc.singles. HTH. Shawn Pickrell

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Apparently this rather simplistic ploy is considered to be great fun by some people out there who clearly have too much time on their hands.

au contraire, it’s a fine art. Shawn Pickrell

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Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here?

Trying to coax other readers into reacting for one’s own entertainment is a fairly common passtime on the Usenet news. It just is a variation of trolling. A bit more funny than the average, this time though, since there has been some clever wordplay and personal baiting included, even if the latter has been trivially obvious. Usually there just is straight uncouth abuse, but guys have at least made an effort at a flippant wittiness. Nevertheless, it is not worth being drawn in. But the soc.singles crossposting ploy also is rather ineffective, since it is so easily avoided if one so chooses. The syntax varies depending on the newsreader program used, but basically the avoidance criterion to put in one’s alt.accounting filter file is this simple (displayed in a Unix rn-type notation):    /^Newsgroups:.*soc.singles/hj Apropos, while on the subject of wanton crossposting. You will probably have noticed that various spam postings often have a lot of newsgroups included at one go. That makes them easy to filter with the following kind of rules:   /^Newsgroups: .*,.*,.*,.*,.*,.*,.*,/hj    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

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Why are several people suddenly cross-posting replies to messages here when the original message was not cross-posted here? — Todd Stephens

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Question:

We sell to customers across Canada. Most items purchased from us are PST exempt as they are for re-sale.  Recently we have added tools to our product line. Could someone let me know if we charge PST on all tool sales in Ontario, where we are located, or should we be collecting provincial taxes from tool sales to all provinces ? Thank you Gary

Response:

I think you should only charge PST on sales in Ontario.  You don’t need the hassle of collecting PST in other Provinces and have no way of remitting the tax to those jurisdictions anyway.  If someone buys something out of Province, it is up to the buyer to pay the PST to his provincial tax authority.  If you have offices in other provinces, then you should get registered as a Vendor in those provinces and collect and remit the PST on sales in those provinces. Who needs the hassle of collecting and accounting for PST if you don’t have to? Peter

Response:

You should charge ORST (Ontario Retail Sales Tax) on sales in Ontario unless the customer provides an exemption.  You probably need not charge PST on sales in other provinces; in such cases it is the buyer’s responsibility to pay tax to his province, though of course some will "forget" to do so. There are some circumstances in which you might be "deemed" to have a "permanent establishment" in another province and be required to collect and pay sales tax in that province, but from the very limited information given it is unlikely that would be a concern for you.  If your business is incorporated, you would also be required to allocate a portion of taxable income to that province (and to file a provincial corporation tax return if that province requires a separate return). If you have any reason to believe this might apply to you, ask the tax authorities in that province and consult your competent professional accountant.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We sell to customers across Canada. Most items purchased from us are PST exempt as they are for re-sale.  Recently we have added tools to our product line. Could someone let me know if we charge PST on all tool sales in Ontario, where we are located, or should we be collecting provincial taxes from tool sales to all provinces ? Thank you Gary

Response:

It depends on the level ($ amount) of sales that you make to customers in other jurisdictions (provinces).  Provinces have agreements with each other as to threshold levels, collection and remittance mechanisms.  For example, if you buy a computer from Dell or IBM and even if they have no sales office in your province they are required to collect and remit tax to the proper taxing authority.  If you sell goods to Atlantic Canada the newer HST regime is administered by the Federal regime and you must collect taxes if your sales are in excess of $30,000/year.  I’m not sure if that is for your entire operation or if it can be broken down by jurisdiction, I believe it to be the total sales. The laws and application of exemption certificates is a mumble jumble, ridiculous set of absurd rules from province to province.  In Atlantic Canada there are no exemption certificates since the introduction of HST. You should really consult with a sales tax professional on this matter.  Your provincial tax department can also offer guidelines on the subject.  If you are not careful with this you may be held liable for all uncollected/unremitted tax.  A 4 year back tax audit could cause tremendous financial difficulties and you have no recourse after the fact to collect uncharged tax from individuals in all 4 corners of the country.  Tax auditors care little about sob stories, they have first dibs on any funds in case of bankruptcy.  You are gambling the financial health of your company if you do not get professional advise or ruling from the taxing authorities in questions.  I can tell you for certain that the Federal GST department will be able to instruct you as for sales to Atlantic Canada, as for the other provinces start by talking to someone in the Ontario tax department.  Save yourself  from future major headaches by talking to a tax proffessional. John. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We sell to customers across Canada. Most items purchased from us are PST exempt as they are for re-sale.  Recently we have added tools to our product line. Could someone let me know if we charge PST on all tool sales in Ontario, where we are located, or should we be collecting provincial taxes from tool sales to all provinces ? Thank you Gary

Response:

Question:

I recently read the FASB has ruled that any losses incurred from terrorist attacks can not be  reported as extraordinary. What is the rationale for this thinking?

The rationale is explained in the FASB’s press release of October 1, 2001. It is available at http://www.fasb.org/eitf/eitf91101.html. Regards, Bill

Response:

I recently read the FASB has ruled that any losses incurred from terrorist attacks can not be  reported as extraordinary. What is the rationale for this thinking?  The rationale is explained in the FASB’s press release of October 1,  2001. It is available at http://www.fasb.org/eitf/eitf91101.html.

Here are the relevant parts of the release:                            NEWS RELEASE 10/1/01                            FASB’s Emerging Issues Task Force Decides Against Extraordinary        Treatment for Terrorist Attack Costs                                  Norwalk, CT, October 1, 2001-In a continuation of its September        20 meeting, the Emerging Issues Task Force (EITF) of the              Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) convened September        28 and reached consensus on accounting issues for the September        11 terrorist attacks. The agreed-upon-approach differed from the      tentative conclusions reached on September 20. Specifically, the      Task Force decided against use of an extraordinary item                treatment for losses incurred in connection with the recent            terrorist attacks.                                                    In commenting on the consensus reached, EITF Chairman Tim Lucas        stated, "Because of the far-reaching effects of the September 11      events, coupled with a weakening economy that predated those          events, it would be difficult to capture the resulting economic        effects in companies* financial statements. As one example, the        events impacted airlines in multiple ways. Air carriers were          unable to fly for two days, suffered the effects of rerouting          and initiated layoffs in anticipation of lower passenger demand.      No single line item can capture all of those effects. Other            companies representing a broad range of industries are                experiencing similar impacts."                                        Accounting principles provide for "extraordinary item" treatment      for gains and losses that meet certain technical criteria. Gains      and losses classified as extraordinary are shown on the income        statement net of tax effects and after a subtotal income before        extraordinary items. At the September 20 meeting, the Task Force      had tentatively concluded that some losses, directly                  attributable to the events of September 11, should be shown as        extraordinary and undertook an effort to clarify how to separate      such losses from other financial results.                              At last week*s meeting the Task Force concluded that, while the        events of September 11 were certainly extraordinary, the              financial reporting treatment that uses that label would not be        an effective way to communicate the financial effects of those        events and should not be used in this case. The EITF observed          that the economic effects of the events were so extensive and          pervasive that it would be impossible to capture them in any one      financial statement line item. Any approach to extraordinary          item accounting would include only a part-and perhaps a                relatively small part-of the real effect of those tragic events.      Readers of financial reports will be intensely interested in          understanding the whole impact of the events on each company.          The EITF concluded that showing part of the effect as an              "extraordinary item" would hinder, rather than help, effective        communication.                                                        The EITF also recognized that it would be very difficult to            separate direct effects from indirect in a consistent way. The        primary objective of the FASB and the Task Force in raising this      issue was to provide financial statement preparers and auditors        with guidance that would be straightforward and consistently          applied. The members of EITF recognized that applying existing        guidance to this event and identifying losses (and gains) that        should be classified as extraordinary was very difficult and          reasonable people could come to very different answers. After          considerable efforts over the last two weeks to clarify the            issue, the EITF concluded that the best way to achieve the            objective would be to not use the classification for any of the        effects of these particular events. That approach also is              consistent with the broader objective of providing financial          reports that communicate effectively and clearly.                 In view of the frequency of terrorist attacks in Europe, they would scarcely even qualify as "basically" extraordinary here. It remains to be seen if the FASB will prevail in this case or see its recommendations overturned by politicians. A. Lucien Meyers, CIA, CMA — If you receive this by error, please delete and inform sender. www.consult-meyers.com recommends e-mail encryption using pgp.

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I recently read the FASB has ruled that any losses incurred from terrorist attacks can not be  reported as extraordinary. What is the rationale for this thinking?

Response:

Doh….  It’s not a loss ordinarily incurred in the course of business. — Ken Russell Sydney

I recently read the FASB has ruled that any losses incurred from terrorist attacks can not be  reported as extraordinary. What is the rationale for this thinking?

Response:

Doh….  It’s not a loss ordinarily incurred in the course of business. — Ken Russell Sydney It would have provided too much scope to dump losses that were not strictly caused by the attack, and establishing a "true figure" for these losses would have proved impossible in most cases.

Rob hancock England – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently read the FASB has ruled that any losses incurred from terrorist attacks can not be  reported as extraordinary. What is the rationale for this thinking?

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are a small temporary agency that uses Quickbooks pro 2000 as an accounting package. We use this package to tracke employee time and bill that time to the client. Is there a way to have the system automacticaly create the invoice as the time is entered into the system? Also in the weekly timesheet is there a way to have the customer job and service item come up automaticaly when the employee is entered? Also we are also investigating industry specific software and would appreceate any recommendations on this too. Thank you in advance Andy

Andy, In response to our message, I just want to invite you to contact my office for very competitive prices and fast service on all your tax form requirements such as W2’s and 1099’s. We also supply laser and continuous format checks that are compatible to Quickbooks Accounting Software. Our phone number is 800-999-3676 and our office is open from 9 am to 5 pm EST. thewiz web: http://www.formsonline.com

Response:

We are a small temporary agency that uses Quickbooks pro 2000 as an accounting package. We use this package to tracke employee time and bill that time to the client. Is there a way to have the system automacticaly create the invoice as the time is entered into the system? Also in the weekly timesheet is there a way to have the customer job and service item come up automaticaly when the employee is entered? Also we are also investigating industry specific software and would appreceate any recommendations on this too. Thank you in advance Andy

Response:

No, QB cannot automatically generate the Invoices.   Industry-specific or custom software may be able to do that, but I very much doubt that any general-purpose accounting software can do it. The QB weekly timesheet has a button, "Copy last sheet".  Click this after entering the employee, it enters the same data as was recorded for the employee’s most recent timesheet.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are a small temporary agency that uses Quickbooks pro 2000 as an accounting package. We use this package to tracke employee time and bill that time to the client. Is there a way to have the system automacticaly create the invoice as the time is entered into the system? Also in the weekly timesheet is there a way to have the customer job and service item come up automaticaly when the employee is entered? Also we are also investigating industry specific software and would appreceate any recommendations on this too. Thank you in advance Andy

Response:

Question:

Help, I need advice. My dilemma is that  my best (only) friend has recently met and shacked up with her boyfriend of 2 months and I suddenly find myself with no socialization. She’s the one that drags me out of the house to go shopping and to movies while our kids are at school. Now my only contact with other people is the clerks at the grocery store. I feel like the meds I am on are helping but I still have trouble with small talk and would’nt know how to make new friends if my life depended on it. Sorry if I’m rambling. Any advice would be welcome. Thanx Marcy

Response:

Hi Marcy, Friends are so precious to us, and it is bitter when they drift away…i’m sure that those of us that have had this happen really feel for you…. Sine the meds are working and you’re not totally crippled perhaps a good move would be CBT group. Jake – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - "lula" <l…@calweb.com> wrote: >Help, I need advice. My dilemma is that  my best (only) friend has recently >met and shacked >up with her boyfriend of 2 months and I suddenly find myself with no >socialization. She’s the >one that drags me out of the house to go shopping and to movies while our >kids are at school. >Now my only contact with other people is the clerks at the grocery store. I >feel like the >meds I am on are helping but I still have trouble with small talk and >would’nt know how to >make new friends if my life depended on it. Sorry if I’m rambling. Any >advice would be welcome. Thanx >Marcy

Response:

Yes, I’ve just started treatment and no I don’t go to work or school. I’m a stay at home mom. I’d like to go to college though but am having trouble finding afterschool care for my 11 years old daughter who has Aspergers .Maybe I’m just scared and not trying hard enough to find answers to my problems. Ya think? Grachman Olajuwon <grac…@aol.comOLAJUWON> wrote in message

news:20000518205857.11565.00000135@ng-cd1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >From: "lula" l…@calweb.com > >Help, I need advice. My dilemma is that  my best (only) friend has recently > >met and shacked > >up with her boyfriend of 2 months and I suddenly find myself with no > >socialization. She’s the > >one that drags me out of the house to go shopping and to movies while our > >kids are at school. > >Now my only contact with other people is the clerks at the grocery store. I > >feel like the > >meds I am on are helping but I still have trouble with small talk and > >would’nt know how to > >make new friends if my life depended on it. Sorry if I’m rambling. Any > >advice would be welcome. Thanx > >Marcy > You need to try to join some clubs or organizations in you area.  If there is a > YMCA, they have many activities going on. > Are you at school?  Do you have a job?  Maybe you can try to connect with > people there. > Also, have you gotten treatment? > Grachman, The > "alt.tv.daria…is dominated by the Far Left"- al52…@aol.com (Al52228)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->From: "lula" l…@calweb.com >Help, I need advice. My dilemma is that  my best (only) friend has recently >met and shacked >up with her boyfriend of 2 months and I suddenly find myself with no >socialization. She’s the >one that drags me out of the house to go shopping and to movies while our >kids are at school. >Now my only contact with other people is the clerks at the grocery store. I >feel like the >meds I am on are helping but I still have trouble with small talk and >would’nt know how to >make new friends if my life depended on it. Sorry if I’m rambling. Any >advice would be welcome. Thanx >Marcy

You need to try to join some clubs or organizations in you area.  If there is a YMCA, they have many activities going on. Are you at school?  Do you have a job?  Maybe you can try to connect with people there. Also, have you gotten treatment? Grachman, The "alt.tv.daria…is dominated by the Far Left"- al52…@aol.com (Al52228)

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ajiko,thank you for your advice.Finding childcare can be difficult. I think its going to be a while before we see my mother in law again. My girls spent the night with her last month after a wedding. Amanda was fine at the wedding aside from explaining that there were some things she coul’nt do even if she did read them in a book about weddings. Anyway, that night was a fiasco, I forgot to pack her pillow and blanket, etc. I’m sure you can relate. I wanted to go to beauty college and the hours are a bit tricky. My husband can take the girls to school but there would be almost a 2 hour gap before I finished classes before I could get Amanda. I know there is a way to work it out but something is holding me back and I’m not sure what. Marcy ajiko <aj…@sonic.net> wrote in message

news:GSfV4.35$a1.2494@typhoon.sonic.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > "Our life is more than our work – and our work is more than our job." – Wavy > Gravy > lula wrote in message <3924c8c…@news3.calweb.com>… > >Yes, I’ve just started treatment and no I don’t go to work or school. I’m a > >stay at home mom. I’d like to go to college though but am having trouble > >finding afterschool care for my 11 years old > >daughter who has Aspergers .Maybe I’m just scared and not trying hard > enough > >to find answers to my problems. Ya think? > Marcy – You should go ahead and take classes during the time your daughter > is at school, or some in the evening if dad can take care of her then. > I’ve been doing this the last couple of years – the only problem was, my > school started two weeks before his, so I had to have care during that time. > And, I missed a class or two.  I’m just graduating from Jr College (2 > year) – with tons of units I’ve built up over 25 years!  I still need one > more class for my two-year accounting certificate, though. > Plan now for next fall!  Start out light if you need to – 2 or three > classes. The first year I took one accounting class, and one child > psychology class – plus two evenings of Japanese.  I had a class in human > relations last year that is a good eye-opener. > School is a great way to be around people, and you may make a new friend or > two. > Also, find out if there is an AS support group in your area, or organize one > yourself! People in my group are willing to exchange some childcare, and > since they know what you are facing, they will be better with your daughter. > -ajiko

Response:

I know exactly what you mean by, you don’t know what’s holding you back.  I have done the same thing for many years.  When I read your post I thought.  At least she has a husband and child. I reach for things to give me an excuse not to get out there and just do it.  My only friend moved away 10 years ago.  We’re still very close but I miss friends.  I stayed in nowhere relationships. Pretending that they gave me some purpose.  I didn’t drive and I have chronic asthma and allergies–which make me shy and self-conscience.  Plus I live in a bad area where I don’t relate to the people and there no shopping or entertainment to speak of.  I used all of these things to validate why I didn’t have friends or a life.  Well, now I have a drivers license and I’m in counseling.  So, something will click and you’ll just get tired of it.  For me it was a break up. You’ll know it when it happens.  I sympathize with what you are going through.  Good luck, jen * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

Hi! Could anyone with reasonable knowledge and experience in the field of management accountancy and costing advice me on what makes a good costing and management accountant in a manufacturing Industry if possible. These is in the light that I want to have an indication, as to what other people in the same field of work do. So as to know what are their responsibilities and their scope of work. Regards SDC Mokoena

Response:

Hi David, Being a management accountant, I’m glad you asked Seriously, management accounting has changed very much in the last decade or so.  Without going into detailed history, "standard costing" has been around for decades, but the need for more accurate costing information (especially in manufacturing) called for new techniques. Then Activity Based Costing (ABC) was developed.  Many large companies still use Standard Costing, but more and more companies depend on ABC for a true product cost. Also, the role of the management accountant has changed.  In more companies, you’ll find the management accountant (don’t read cost accountant) in tactical and strategic planning positions.  You should contact the Institute of Management Accountants (www.rutgers.edu/Accounting/raw/ima/ima.htm) for more career options. They are the group that offers the Certified Management Accountant designation.  It is an international certification, as opposed to country or state specific license.  The testing topics cover cost accounting (of course), management, information systems, etc. Personally, I found the CMA test more challenging than the CPA test. Good Luck, Russell Tuncap, CMA, CPA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! Could anyone with reasonable knowledge and experience in the field of management accountancy and costing advice me on what makes a good costing and management accountant in a manufacturing Industry if possible. These is in the light that I want to have an indication, as to what other people in the same field of work do. So as to know what are their responsibilities and their scope of work. Regards SDC Mokoena

Response:

Hi! Could anyone with reasonable knowledge and experience in the field of management accountancy and costing advice me on what makes a good costing and management accountant in a manufacturing Industry if possible. These is in the light that I want to have an indication, as to what other people in the same field of work do. So as to know what are their responsibilities and their scope of work. Regards SDC Mokoena

The short answer, not to dimish the other fine relpy, is IMHO that a management accountant creates a system to describe and protect the economic entity. This involves a wide array of skills including project management, selecting and implementing an appropiate system of cost accounting, market research and analysis, capital expenditure evaluation, capital structure analysis, risk analysis, and a system of internal control. The key criteria is that it adaquately serves the entity and satisfies the auditors. — NOTICE TO SPAMMERS Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Sect. 227, any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Dan DeEulis

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi! Could anyone with reasonable knowledge and experience in the field of management accountancy and costing advice me on what makes a good costing and management accountant in a manufacturing Industry if possible. These is in the light that I want to have an indication, as to what other people in the same field of work do. So as to know what are their responsibilities and their scope of work. Regards SDC Mokoena

I was in Manufacturing accounting as a manager for over 10 years.  Most of the time I was in General Accounting, which I really liked.  However, in manufacturing, Cost Accounting tends to pay more because it is a specialty.  Did you like your cost accounting courses?  That is a good clue to the skills that you need.  There is a lot of detail and use of standard costs is common.  Then you need to analyze why there are variances to the standard cost.  Either more or less material was used than the standard, or the cost was more or less than the standard. Attention to detail and ability to work with numbers is key.  A lot of it is computerized now.  Also a great understanding of inventory levels and accounting for purchases and useage is important. Personally, I like General Accounting better.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi! Could anyone with reasonable knowledge and experience in the field of management accountancy and costing advice me on what makes a good costing and management accountant in a manufacturing Industry if possible. These is in the light that I want to have an indication, as to what other people in the same field of work do. So as to know what are their responsibilities and their scope of work. Regards SDC Mokoena

I have been in a manufacturing/finance environment for over 20 years. My suggestion would be to focus on educating yourself on systems, manufacturing and accounting. If you are going to work in manufacturing you need to be able to talk their talk (look into APICS). Take manufacturing and system classes along with your finance classes. Really understanding the technology you are using doesn’t hurt ether. RG, Silicon Valley

Response:

Question:

I recently took advantage of a promotion offered in my area and went to see a chiropractor for a free exam and evaluation. Are chiropractors worth seeing and paying the huge amounts to? Good questions.  I would be suspicious of what you call "huge amounts of money," or a treatment protocol that automatically puts you into a 3 times a week for six months routine with all kinds of expensive "physical therapy."   Unfortunately, you’ll find a small percentage of doctors who treat the patient’s pocketbook in any profession, and mine is no exception. Beyond this, alterations in articular (joint) function in the spine do have profound effects upon human health.  

<Article snipped for brevity sake Dr. Taylor,    What????  Would you care to explain all of that in English??? I’m no doctor of anything but I can say this:  In my experience, chiropractors are of little help.  I’ve yet to meet one who didn’t think the world would fall apart unless people got "adjusted".  My own personal experience has not been good with chiropractic (obviously, from the tone of this post).  I know people who swear by it though. My question to them is always, "Why do you have to keep going back time and time again to be adjusted"?  I have never known anybody who went to a chiropractor for just a few visits.  It seems to be a neverending process.      You stated, "the tremendous increase seen in degenerative and chronic diseases today which do not respond to medical treatment is just the tip of the iceberg".  What proof do you have of this?  What empirical studies have been done to connect any of this?    To the original poster:  Chiropractic is a short term fix for minor problems. Many of the "moves" that the chiropractor uses can be violent.  I don’t care what anybody says, having your spine twisted in such a fashion can’t be healthy.  As for neck adjustments…be sure to ask your chiropractor (or better yet, do your own research) about the possiblity of stroke due to neck adjustments.  A very real and dangerous possibility. mike

Response:

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently took advantage of a promotion offered in my area and went to see a chiropractor for a free exam and evaluation. Are chiropractors worth seeing and paying the huge amounts to? Good questions.  I would be suspicious of what you call "huge amounts of money," or a treatment protocol that automatically puts you into a 3 times a week for six months routine with all kinds of expensive "physical therapy." Unfortunately, you’ll find a small percentage of doctors who treat the patient’s pocketbook in any profession, and mine is no exception. Beyond this, alterations in articular (joint) function in the spine do have profound effects upon human health. <Article snipped for brevity sake Dr. Taylor,    What????  Would you care to explain all of that in English??? I’m no doctor of anything but I can say this:

**"I’m no doctor" ?? Obviously…and not an English major either! In my experience, chiropractors are of little help.   I have never known anybody who went to a chiropractor for just a few visits.  It seems to be a neverending process.

****Soft tissue [muscle, ligaments, etc] injuries DO NO HEAL quickly     and need multiple visits to accelerate the healing process. Many     other problems need only a visit or two to resolve, as anyone     who has more than one experience with chiropractic will verify.    To the original poster:  Chiropractic is a short term fix for minor problems. Many of the "moves" that the chiropractor uses can be violent.  I don’t care what anybody says, having your spine twisted in such a fashion can’t be healthy. As for neck adjustments…be sure to ask your chiropractor (or better yet, do your own research) about the  possiblity of stroke due to neck adjustments.  A very real and  dangerous possibility. mike

****I’d suggest ‘mike’ try gaining _some_ knowledge by attempting to     read the research on chiropractic, its efficacy and benefit.  It’s     seems that this poster spends too much time watching "Hard Copy"    for if he _were_ knowledgeable, he wouldn’t make such ludricous    statements.  The  risk of ’stroke due to neck adjustments’ IS LESS    THAN getting struck by lightening! {see attached comparisons).   arnold [respond to group - no mail] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="ADJ-RISK.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ADJ-RISK.TXT" i need urgent info re current knowledge of incidence &p revelence of verterbral art thrombosis & embolisim & death associated with cervical manipulation… and is there an increased risk in drug abusers? PETER.M.C.JACKSON

Here’s a copy of an essay I wrote on this subject.  I have never heard of drug abuse being cited as a risk factor. How Risky is Cervical Manipulation? Every published study which has estimated the incidence of stroke (CVA) from cervical manipulation has agreed that the risk is 1 to 3 incidents per million treatments. Dvorak, (1) in a survey of 203 practitioners of manual medicine in Switzerland, found a rate of one serious complication per 400,000 cervical manipulations, without any reported deaths, among an estimated 1.5 million cervical manipulations.  Jaskoviak (2) reported approximately 5 million cervical manipulations from 1965 to 1980 at The National College of Chiropractic Clinic in Chicago, without a single case of vertebral artery stroke or serious injury. Henderson and Cassidy (3) performed a survey at the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College outpatient clinic where more than a half-million treatments were given over a nine-year period, again without serious incident.  Eder (4) offered a report of 168,000 cervical manipulations over a 28 year period, again without a single significant complication.  After an extensive literature review performed to formulate practice guidelines (5), the authors concurred that "the risk of serious neurological complications [from cervical manipulation] is extremely low, and is approximately one or two per million cervical manipulations." In  another survey, based on a computerized registration system in Holland, Patjin (6) found an overall rate of one complication in 518,886 manipulations.  A survey done at Stanford University (7), asked every neurologist in California if they saw any neurological complications they thought resulted from chiropractic treatment in 1990-91.  Their survey found 55 reported CVAs statewide over that two-year period. During that period there were about 110 million office visits to chiropractors in California, and between 33 and 50 million neck adjustments.  Other experts on manipulation (8) have published opinions that the risk of stroke from cervical manipulation is two or three more-or-less serious incidents per million treatments. In addition to these published studies, data from the National Chiropractic Mutual Insurance Company (NCMIC), which insures over 50 percent of US chiropractors, is also useful for estimating the risk of cervial manipulation.  Since chiropractors deliver 80-90 percent of the spinal manipulation performed in the US, and this company insures about one-half of the profession in the US, this malpractice insurer is a good source of statistics on this subject. According to a member of NCMIC Board of Directors (personal communication with Louis Sportelli, DC, Dec. 21, 1994), in the three years of 1991-92-93,  NCMIC closed a total of 96 claims for CVA; of this total 61 were closed with payment, and 35 were closed without payment.  If one concludes that there was little or no merit to the 35 claims which were closed without payment, this would represent an average of 20 CVA claims per year.   If these NCMIC chiropractors are similar to the national average, they see approximately 120 patient visits per week  (9). Curtis and Bove (10) report that rotary adjustments of the cervical spine comprise about 30% of the visits made to chiropractors. Therefore, chiropractors insured by NCMIC each performed some 1800 cervical manipulations in each of those three years. Considering these numbers, we calculate that NCMICs 24,000 DCs perform some 43,000,000 cervical manipulations per year.  If this leads to 20 strokes, that’s a rate of less than one stroke per 2 million cervical manipulations. Another study based on malpractice history was done in Canada (11).  This study reported there were 13 documented CVAs related to chiropractic care in Canada (with no reported deaths) over a 5 year period.  The author estimated there were at least 50,000,000 cervical manipulations performed by Canadian chiropractors during that time period.  He concluded that a reasonable estimate of risk is 1 serious neurological complications per 3,000,000 neck manipulations. Finally, in what might be the best documented study to date, Klougart et al (12) sought to identify the total number of cases of CVAs related to chiropractic manipulation that occurred in Denmark over a ten-year period. They surveyed all members of the Danish Chiropractors’ Association, and cross-referenced the members’ reports of CVA occurrences with published cases, official complaints and insurance data.  Then they estimated the total number of neck manipulations performed by chiropractors over the same time period from the survey responses cross-referenced with insurance reimbursement data.  They found five cases of "irreversible CVA after chiropractic treatment" occurred in Denmark between 1978 and 1988, in the course of 6,600,000 cervical spine treatment sessions.  They estimated a risk of 1 CVA per 1,320,000 cervical spine treatments sessions, and 1 CVA per 414,000 cervical spine sessions using rotation techniques in the upper cervical spine. Based upon these studies, the most reasonable estimate of the risk of stroke from cervical manipulation is one-half to two incidents per million manipulations performed.  Only a minority of these cases are fatal.  About one-third of the cases of stroke following cervical manipulation reported in Terrett’s review of 107 cases (13) resolved with mild or no residuals. In a later review, Terrett  (14) found a total of 126 cases of vertebrobasilar accidents following manipulation reported in the international literature from 1934-1987, of which 29 cases resulted in death.  This yields a mortality rate of 23% among the incidences reported in the literature. While it has been argued that the rate of strokes may be significantly under-reported in the literature, it is probable that the rate of deaths are proportionally over-reported, since it is likely the more serious and impressive cases would be described in the literature.  Therefore, a conservative estimate of the risk of death from stroke caused by neck manipulation is about one fatality per 4,000,000 neck manipulations. Risks of Other Common Treatments for Neck Symptoms For proper perspective, the risks of chiropractic neck treatment should be compared to the risks of other treatments for similar conditions.   For example, even the most conservative "conventional" treatment for neck and back pain, prescription of Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs), carries significantly greater risk than manipulation.  One study (15) found a 4/10,000 annual mortality rate for NSAID induced ulcers among patients treated for non-rheumatic … read more »

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I recently took advantage of a promotion offered in my area and went to see a chiropractor for a free exam and evaluation.  I had, and still tend to have, some rather annoying pain in the neck area, but I’m pretty sure now that it is stress related. In any case, he took some photographs with Xrays, and showed them to me a few days later.  I am presently in what’s called "Phase I" (mostly in 0-20yo patients), and there really did seem to be some rather abnormal curves in the structure of my spine. I know close to nothing on the subject, so I need to ask: how likely is it – and according to him, very likely – that such a "Phase I" condition can affect your body and anything from the way you see to the way you breathe?  I was also told that about 90% of the population are in this phase, and may or may not know it.  What are the treatments for this, and what will happen if it is left untreated?  Are chiropractors worth seeing and paying the huge amounts to?

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and what will happen if it is left untreated?  Are chiropractors worth seeing and paying the huge amounts to?

….’huge amounts’?  I wonder what the basis for that comment is, other than conjecture.  While it’s true that many chiro patients may have more visits, to _remedy_ a soft tissue problem, the cost is usually less than that for medical services for the same problem.  This is supported by the studies that many individual states have undertaken to evaluate work-comp claim costs.  All studies had the same outcome…chiropractic resolved the problem at less cost than for medical intervention…and chiros got the worker back on the job sooner.  Do a Medline..and a Net search and these comments are easily validated Rule number one for spotting a crook when dealing with a chiropractor ; if they prescribe a series of treatment and give you a dollar amount to pay, usually up front.  Run, do not walk to the door.

I agree!  Same for the nutritional and weight loss scammers. But like ANY profession, whether medical, law, etc, there are unfortunately some bad eggs! Find an experienced chiropractor…. not one of the kids who eagerly stear you onto vitamin pills and snake oil.

Agreed! The standard guidelines within my profession state that when a person shows no improvement whatsoever within the first 2 weeks of care, he/she should be re-evaluated and either the treatment protocol revised or the patient referred to another doctor (DC, MD, DO).

These same guidelines are applicable for chiros. This may be someone’s guidlines but it is not the norm for their profession.  Most chiropractors will get the hook in with at least two or three weeks of multiple visits and never refer you to another doctor.

Poor David is uninformed.  Obviously he is not aware of the Mercy guidelines; the Rand studies or the AHCPR guidelines. A good chiro or medico will re-evaluate treatment effectiveness[as they are taught to do!] in 2-3 weeks and either alter treatment or refer. OTOH, how often have medical docs referred you out, especially in the world of managed care?   Remember, you are dealing with a SALESMAN: there is no profit in healing  or diagnosing a person as 100% healthy.

Hmmm…why would someone spend 6 years [2 years conventional pre-med studies plus 5000 hours of medical/chiro training if the goal was to be a salesman?  Besides, ’sales’ courses ARE NOT taught in any chiro college.  OTOH, I’ve never heard of any professional remaining in business who didn’t do _some_ marketing of their services….and I’ll bet David can’t think of one either! If you have a condition that 90% of us have it sounds like you are normal.

Sounds like ‘rotten eggs’ from David.  Maybe he did encounter a less than professional chiro…and it colored his thought processes forever. Likely, he’s experienced a bad barber before…but didn’t stop getting haircuts…he sought another one to his liking.  Same for medical doctors, lawyers, tax accountants, etc.  I experienced ‘bad’ professionals in the past…but am not so narrow minded to believe that having a negative experience with one person is reason to consider everyone in that profession behaves similarly.  That’s blind ignorance! jay perrin, DC

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and what will happen if it is left untreated?  Are chiropractors worth seeing and paying the huge amounts to?

Rule number one for spotting a crook when dealing with a chiropractor ; if they prescribe a series of treatment and give you a dollar amount to pay, usually up front.  Run, do not walk to the door. Find an experienced chiropractor…. not one of the kids who eagerly stear you onto vitamin pills and snake oil. The standard guidelines within my profession state that when a person shows no improvement whatsoever within the first 2 weeks of care, he/she should be re-evaluated and either the treatment protocol revised or the patient referred to another doctor (DC, MD, DO).  

This may be someone’s guidlines but it is not the norm for their profession.  Most chiropractors will get the hook in with at least two or three weeks of multiple visits and never refer you to another doctor. Remember, you are dealing with a SALESMAN: there is no profit in healing  or diagnosing a person as 100% healthy. If you have a condition that 90% of us have it sounds like you are normal. David

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I recently took advantage of a promotion offered in my area and went to see a chiropractor for a free exam and evaluation.  I had, and still tend to have, some rather annoying pain in the neck area, but I’m pretty sure now that it is stress related. In any case, he took some photographs with Xrays, and showed them to me a few days later.  I am presently in what’s called "Phase I" (mostly in 0-20yo patients), and there really did seem to be some rather abnormal curves in the structure of my spine. I know close to nothing on the subject, so I need to ask: how likely is it – and according to him, very likely – that such a "Phase I" condition can affect your body and anything from the way you see to the way you breathe?  I was also told that about 90% of the population are in this phase, and may or may not know it.  What are the treatments for this, and what will happen if it is left untreated?  Are chiropractors worth seeing and paying the huge amounts to?

Good questions.  I would be suspicious of what you call "huge amounts of money," or a treatment protocol that automatically puts you into a 3 times a week for six months routine with all kinds of expensive "physical therapy."   Unfortunately, you’ll find a small percentage of doctors who treat the patient’s pocketbook in any profession, and mine is no exception. Beyond this, alterations in articular (joint) function in the spine do have profound effects upon human health.  I would place the percentage of those of us affected at more like 85%, but the point is that in our culture, with automobile accidents, weekend warriors, and couch pototoes being the norm rather than the exception, this "Phase I" spinal status is quite real.  The tremendous increase seen in degenerative and chronic diseases today which do not respond to medical treatment is just the tip of the iceberg.  In my practice I routinely see degenerative "medical conditions" stop their progress or reverse while the patient is under care for chiropractic conditions.  The mechanism here relates to two different forms of nerve cell communication, electrochemical and molecular.  Axons, the long communicating parts of nerves that travel from central to peripheral locations in the body, can be adversely affected by a number of things.  These things range from pressure and chemical irritation due to muscle spasms, to sustained signal bombardment (neural facilitation) from injuries or organ dysfunctions, to decrease or loss of the anterograde (outward) and retrograde (inward) flow (axioplasmic flow) of DNA and other similar forms of molecular "instructions" which travel a much slower (measured in hours rather than nanoseconds) route through the "tube" of the nerve axon between the brain and the "end organs" (muscles, visceral organs, blood vessles, skin, etc.).  Since these nerve axons travel through areas affected by spinal joint function (the tough dural membrane covering the spinal cord and the beginnings of the spinal nerve roots, the bony structure of the spine, and the paraspinal muscles), spinal joint function can profoundly affect nerve transmission.  At the extreme, if no electrochemical signals get through, proper function ceases.  Similarly, if no axioplasmic flow gets through, the end organs no longer receive the DNA which gives them their identity.  Without this DNA, the gene (for example) which says "I am a kidney cell" will eventually switch off.  This allows the old gene which says "replicate" to switch back on for the first time since the womb, and – voila – neoplastic disease (cancer.)   The standard guidelines within my profession state that when a person shows no improvement whatsoever within the first 2 weeks of care, he/she should be re-evaluated and either the treatment protocol revised or the patient referred to another doctor (DC, MD, DO).  This improvement may be measured by symptomatic, structural and functional change; the three do not always progress together. Various studies, ranging from state workers compensation reviews to major university studies to federal government reviews, have found that chiropractic care is far more safe, much less expensive, and produces faster results (returns to work in an average of one-third the time, for example) as compared to the medical alternatives for back conditions.  These findings occur simply because medical doctors do not have the training in neuromusculoskeletal conditions necessary to properly diagnose and treat them. I hope this information is useful to you.  If you find that your chiropractor is not working out for you, email me your geographical location and I’ll be happy to provide one or more name/address/phone packages for people I would trust in your area.                                 –Noel A. Taylor, MM, DC

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