Question:

I would think both methods get to COGS and you may be technically correct but the boss’s (owners?) wife is almost always right.

Wouldn’t it be funny now if your Boss’s wife frequents this NG

Response:

COGS is affected by inventory, but not the other way around. If you are scratching your heads here’s a more detailed answer. Before modern accounting systems and databases were able to track costs of individual items, the traditional method said: Cost of Goods Sold  = Opening Inventory  + Puchases – Closing Inventory Modern accounting systems Credit inventory and debit COGS every time an item is sold so, the link between inventory and COGS is tenuous and minor. (In fact, most accounting systems mainatain a separate detail of the individual purchase price of inventory items for COGS purposes, but i digress here.) to simplify things, WIP is just another form of inventory on hand. The purpose of an accounting system is to help you track your Assets and Liabilities and your Income and Expenses, and finally, by derivation the net profit or loss. A lot of us lose sight of that basic principle. The chart of accounts came in to being to help categorize those four or five broad classes. For example, if you book Telephone or Utility expenses in the Warehousing Expenses account, the net profit/loss does not change. However, allocating or categorizing expenses correctly helps businesses make intelligent management decisions. It can answer questions such as How much does it cost me to sell a certain product? What are the direct costs such as cost of goods? what are the indirect costs, such as Travel and meals expenses? How does one determine the level of detail?  Every business has a different chart of accounts – some are more detailed than others. Job Costing and Project Costing are just other means to "Slice and Dice" the income and expenses to help determine the "real" cost of a job. Standards evolved to define the differences the five broad categories and to clarify the grey areas where there are overlaps – for example – between Cost of Goods and Expenses. – between an Asset and an Expense (Capitalizing expenses)  and here is another grey area: Depreciation It is an odd thing; it is both a real and a virtual cost.  You really do not know how much an asset has depreciated until you sell it (or scrap it ) meanwhile, it makes sense to write off some portion of the asset’s value as time and use take their toll in the asset. Of course there are tax implications as well.  Now a days, it seems to be that the tax tail is wagging the dog – we do so many things to "minimze" taxes, but it really should not be that way. Therefore to answer the question of where to book the number – I’ll agree with SM Serba (and you)  that Expenses do not belong in COGS If you feel strongly about it, you should make your case based on why or how tracking it under Expenses vs Cost of Goods is more useful.  However, since you use Job Costing as well, you may have some difficulty making your case. HS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can’t help specifically with Canadian Tax Law but generally COGS effect your Closing Stock and WIP. This in turn effects your profits and tax. Expensing the items would give you an immediate tax deduction, while allocating it to COGS may defer/ delay that deduction (if you account for WIP). WOW. Thanks for that info. While it may not pertain to Canadian Tax laws it gave me some general insight (more than I had before). BTW, what the heck does "WIP" stand for? Yes — I will Google WIP, but I had to ask here too. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Appreciated and much learned.

Response:

snip I guess I want to know: Is there is any tax advantage/disadvantage (under Canadian Tax Law) for allocating Meals, Gas, Travel (in an INCOME STATEMENT) to to COST OF GOODS SOLD as opposed to allocating those expenses to the named indiviual EXPENSE accounts?

Can’t help specifically with Canadian Tax Law but generally COGS effect your Closing Stock and WIP. This in turn effects your profits and tax. Expensing the items would give you an immediate tax deduction, while allocating it to COGS may defer/ delay that deduction (if you account for WIP).

Response:

Can’t help specifically with Canadian Tax Law but generally COGS effect your Closing Stock and WIP. This in turn effects your profits and tax. Expensing the items would give you an immediate tax deduction, while allocating it to COGS may defer/ delay that deduction (if you account for WIP).

WOW. Thanks for that info. While it may not pertain to Canadian Tax laws it gave me some general insight (more than I had before). BTW, what the heck does "WIP" stand for? Yes — I will Google WIP, but I had to ask here too. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Appreciated and much learned.

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BTW, what the heck does "WIP" stand for? Yes — I will Google WIP, but I had to ask here too.

WIP = Work In Progress (some prefer "Process") ~bill in tx

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Meals, Gas expenses, etc, do not uniformly increase the cost of goods being sold. These expenses are not incurred in obtaining ALL sales, only particular sales. I do not believe there is any tax advantage to one or the other, however it does stick in my craw. Costs applied to COGS are items such as shipping, brokerage fees to bring goods over the border, PST applied in the same situation, any any overhead costs in running the shop. Also, in some situations, you might add labour in production, packaging if specially made for a particular item or items. What you are talking about are sales expenses, and in that case every expense incurred does not necessarily lead to a sale. It does not directly increase your cost of goods. Therefore, I would NOT apply those costs to COGS, rather to their expense accounts instead. I would, however, speak to your accountant that prepares the taxes and performs your review engagement. Ultimately, his understanding of the benefits/drawbacks of any expense handling will be determined by him. If you get it wrong, he will have you fix it through appropriate year-end adjustments. Better to get it right the first time. And let the accountant tell your boss and his wife they are wrong. Unless of course she’s an accountant, then their CA is wrong and they will be engaging a new one! — Stephanie Serba, AICIA Partner, Durham Business Outsource Accounting & Technology smserba <at dbo <dot ca www.dbo.ca

if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish!

<snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there is any tax advantage/disadvantage (under Canadian Tax Law) for allocating Meals, Gas, Travel (in an INCOME STATEMENT) to to COST OF GOODS SOLD as opposed to allocating those expenses to the named indiviual EXPENSE accounts? Not being a trained accountant, just trying to get a small business’s books usable. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks

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I’m not sure about the Canadian treatment of this, but if you are concerned about the tax implications, maybe you should try to post this on a tax news group. A good one is: misc.taxes.moderated BTW Even if you find out you are right it is probably a good idea not to try to correct the bosses wife. — Mark Wiley Accountant Oneonta, NY 13820

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Manufacturing/Construction Industry Expense Allocation (Canada, BC Taxes). In our small business I have always applied Meals, Gas and Travel receipts to those matching expense accounts regardless if they were acquired while on one particular job, or were acquired as general daily expenses covering many different jobs. If those kind of expenses were acquired for one particular job I would then apply them through JOB COSTING, not through G/L expense accounts. Now, the company’s, recently hired, data entry op (and she’s convinced the boss she’s right and I’m wrong) is insisting that Meals, Gas and Travel expenses acquired while fulfilling a singular client’s order should be applied to the general Cost of Goods Sold expense account. If she is right, and I am wrong, can someone please explain why? And what, if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? Thank you, PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish!

Response:

Re: Manufacturing/Construction Industry Expense Allocation (Canada, BC Taxes). In our small business I have always applied Meals, Gas and Travel receipts to those matching expense accounts regardless if they were acquired while on one particular job, or were acquired as general daily expenses covering many different jobs. If those kind of expenses were acquired for one particular job I would then apply them through JOB COSTING, not through G/L expense accounts. Now, the company’s, recently hired, data entry op (and she’s convinced the boss she’s right and I’m wrong) is insisting that Meals, Gas and Travel expenses acquired while fulfilling a singular client’s order should be applied to the general Cost of Goods Sold expense account. If she is right, and I am wrong, can someone please explain why? And what, if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? Thank you, PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Manufacturing/Construction Industry Expense Allocation (Canada, BC Taxes). In our small business I have always applied Meals, Gas and Travel receipts to those matching expense accounts regardless if they were acquired while on one particular job, or were acquired as general daily expenses covering many different jobs. If those kind of expenses were acquired for one particular job I would then apply them through JOB COSTING, not through G/L expense accounts. Now, the company’s, recently hired, data entry op (and she’s convinced the boss she’s right and I’m wrong) is insisting that Meals, Gas and Travel expenses acquired while fulfilling a singular client’s order should be applied to the general Cost of Goods Sold expense account. If she is right, and I am wrong, can someone please explain why? And what, if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? Thank you, PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish!

I would think both methods get to COGS and you may be technically correct but the boss’s (owners?) wife is almost always right. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish! I would think both methods get to COGS and you may be technically correct but the boss’s (owners?) wife is almost always right.

Ack! Coffee just about came out of my nose when reading your retort (re: boss’s wife)! Sad but true. Thanks for the response — appreciated. But I’m still wondering if there are any tax detriments/benefits by lumping those kind of expenses into COGS as opposed to entering them into their separate categories. Thanks again for the, almost, explosive chuckle.

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//snipped// – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Manufacturing/Construction Industry Expense Allocation (Canada, BC Taxes). In our small business I have always applied Meals, Gas and Travel receipts to those matching expense accounts regardless if they were acquired while on one particular job, or were acquired as general daily expenses covering many different jobs. If those kind of expenses were acquired for one particular job I would then apply them through JOB COSTING, not through G/L expense accounts. Now, the company’s, recently hired, data entry op (and she’s convinced the boss she’s right and I’m wrong) is insisting that Meals, Gas and Travel expenses acquired while fulfilling a singular client’s order should be applied to the general Cost of Goods Sold expense account. If she is right, and I am wrong, can someone please explain why? And what, if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? Thank you, PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish! I would think both methods get to COGS and you may be technically correct but the boss’s (owners?) wife is almost always right.

I strongly disagree!    The boss’s wife is **always** correct!! Some thoughts on the matter.  Your method has advantages when costing out certain jobs.  One should certainly consider whether the costing method will make a significant difference in the information it yields and how you will use the information.  Will applying it as a direct cost help you in estimating the costs of future jobs of a similar nature?  Your method gives you a more accurate figure of the cost of particular jobs.  Will it significantly affect how much you invoice the customers?

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  if any, tax breaks/claims are advantageous in applying those expenses to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cost of Goods Sold instead of their corresponding named accounts? PS. If she’s right I’ll probably get fired because I’ve been doing it my way for years, and she’s also the boss’s wife. Shiiish! I would think both methods get to COGS and you may be technically correct but the boss’s (owners?) wife is almost always right. I strongly disagree!    The boss’s wife is **always** correct!! Some thoughts on the matter.  Your method has advantages when costing out certain jobs.  One should certainly consider whether the costing method will make a significant difference in the information it yields and how you will use the information.  Will applying it as a direct cost help you in estimating the costs of future jobs of a similar nature?  Your method gives you a more accurate figure of the cost of particular jobs.  Will it significantly affect how much you invoice the customers?

K, maybe I left out some points. Our accounting software also has a JOB-COSTING module where you can separately apply expenses (such as Meals, Gas, Shop Supplies, COGS etc.) against individual job estimates/quotes/invoices. This module allows loss/profit tracking for each job (kind of). This Job Costing module is not tied into the General Ledger Expense Accounts. When presented with a receipt for GAS, MEALS etc. I apply them towards their named G/L expense accounts. When I apply these expenditures via the G/L our accounting system asks if the expenses should also be associated with particular JOB NUMBERS (single client job numbers). I am tracking single job expenses already via the JOB NUMBER (Costing) module. I guess I want to know: Is there is any tax advantage/disadvantage (under Canadian Tax Law) for allocating Meals, Gas, Travel (in an INCOME STATEMENT) to to COST OF GOODS SOLD as opposed to allocating those expenses to the named indiviual EXPENSE accounts? Not being a trained accountant, just trying to get a small business’s books usable. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks

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Question:

As Healthsouth goes south, firms go into the toilet by Paul B.W. Miller and Paul R. Bahnson We don

Question:

It’s just like driver training Phil. 99% of those on the road think they are good drivers, but, virtually none have ever done any sort of defensive, or advanced training. 95% of the drivers that I see on the roads are in marginal control of their vehicle at best,

You must have ridden my bus at some time.

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The point i was trying to make is a result of a much later FRIGHT in a 210 with a stoll kit without spin and basic aerobatic training feel sure that the fright may have been a bit more if not realising what the thing and the idiot flying (now typing)  had got themselves into. Sadly except same aircraft later bit a more experienced bloke and ruined a family and aircraft same strip same time same load same manoeuvre.

Betcha it was a strutless 210.

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I was taught C172 stall spins and that was valuable in that it both taught me how to handle that and built my confidence level. The ASI will quickly tell you which is happening in regard to spirals vs spins. Recently been out in the dark doing instrument recoveries from spirals as part of my NVFR training. FUN, though a few years back it would be SCARY! I’ve been doing NVFR stuff for years. Better do the test this autumn eh. — Bernie Samms Kingston Beach Tasmania Aero Club of Southern Tasmania  www.acst.com.au Prologic Pty Ltd                          www.prologic.com.au Out Mail has been checked by Norton Anti Virus but no absolute guarantee is made that mail or attachment(s) are virus free. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reading the many lines in the twin or single thread. It occurs to me that  some of the answers  indicate that  if ever one gets way out of shape a few may not know how to recover , never had being taught to spin. Eg some mention of aileron and rudder BTW I am very much a pro spin teach advocate . So in the spirit of learning and benefit of others who have not  yet had the fright of  working out (in very quick time)  what the difference is between a spin and a spiral dive. Lets ask a Question. Ted JV JB and those in the know sand bag for a while please and lets see what evolves. Question. Which instrument will tell you whether your in a spin or a spiral dive ? Cheers Phil

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reading the many lines in the twin or single thread. It occurs to me that  some of the answers  indicate that  if ever one gets way out of shape a few may not know how to recover , never had being taught to spin. Eg some mention of aileron and rudder BTW I am very much a pro spin teach advocate . So in the spirit of learning and benefit of others who have not  yet had the fright of  working out (in very quick time)  what the difference is between a spin and a spiral dive. Lets ask a Question. Ted JV JB and those in the know sand bag for a while please and lets see what evolves. Question. Which instrument will tell you whether your in a spin or a spiral dive ? Cheers Phil Ears. Coop (Who fully supports full spin training and the occasional revision of stalls during BFR’s) (Inverted? no thanks, still shaking the dust out of the clothing from the last time…..)

That’s what ears are < Grin . Coop

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<other stuff snipped so in spins off with power  full OPPOSITE Rudder (fed progressively but very quickly) and incremental forward and smooth movement of stick = hopeful unstall of wings!

I was always taught to move the stick forward all the way if necessary and keep it there *until the rotation stops*. Most a/c unstall (and the rotation stops then) as soon as the stick comes off the back stops. But that last bit is important in machines like Chipmunk where spin flattens quickly and rotation is fast. Have tried it a couple times (at 7,000′ I hasten to add, and with owner present and watching closely) and a turn or two before unstalling after bringing the stick forward is not uncommon. This could also happen in a more docile machine if it is incorrectly loaded (aft c of g). Even with the c of g behind the rear limit the machine may still recover but you will have to wait for it. If this happens and you are close to the ground, well, bugga! is all you can say…… Coop

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Please don’t use the balance ball in spin situations. To quote from Bill Kershner’s book: "The ball in the turn and slip or turn coordinator should not be used to check for spin direction, because its reaction depends on the location of this instrument on the panel, or more technically, its position with respect to the airplane’s center of gravity. If the instrument is on the left (pilot’s) side, the ball will be on the left side of the race in both right and left spins for the Cessna 150 and 152 Aerobat, Cherokee 140B, Musketeer Aerobatic Sport III, and Tomahawk. Slip indicators installed on the right side of the panels in the Aerobat and Sport had the ball going to the right side of the instrument in spins in both directions ….." As for spirals: "The ball may be offset to the left for most U.S. single-engine airplanes becaus eof "torque" correction effects." Confirmation of the above is always on the agenda for students when I do spin training. Regarding inverted spins, be wary of the turn co-ordinator but the old rate of turn indicator will correctly show direction of yaw – as for me, even if I’ve got one I have it turned off anyway. Regards, Dave Pilkington http://www.ozaeros.com (do not reply to that yahoo email address) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spin – low airspeed & balance ball at full deflection

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reading the many lines in the twin or single thread. It occurs to me that  some of the answers  indicate that  if ever one gets way out of shape a few may not know how to recover , never had being taught to spin. Eg some mention of aileron and rudder BTW I am very much a pro spin teach advocate . So in the spirit of learning and benefit of others who have not  yet had the fright of  working out (in very quick time)  what the difference is between a spin and a spiral dive. Lets ask a Question. Ted JV JB and those in the know sand bag for a while please and lets see what evolves. Question. Which instrument will tell you whether your in a spin or a spiral dive ? Cheers Phil Ears. Coop (Who fully supports full spin training and the occasional revision of stalls during BFR’s) (Inverted? no thanks, still shaking the dust out of the clothing from the last time…..)

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  Isn’t the airspeed indicator the main instrument used to identify a spin? Low forward airspeed in a spin, high forward airspeed in a spiral.  In a spin, you apply opposite rudder to the spin( or whatever the POH states)and forward elevator.  In a spiral dive, close throttle, stop rotation with aileron, and a smooth pull with back aileron to level flight, smooth being the word!  Did I remember correctly?  Regards, Andrew.

Evening Andrew. My view is and its been years and years. 1 spins start early on I guess as a result of yaw 2 outward wings accelerate and inward wings will commence to fully stall then it starts to get interesting depending on type and far you have got into the roll 3AoA increases and you enter an autorotation ( not like in a chopper -that’s different altogether) 4 Drag goes up and centre of pressure  moves backwards as the wings complete their fight with the laws of physics. Nose should then pitch up& down  so all at once the math is  yaw+pitch+roll Robins behave nicely bloody aerobats  can get real nasty and Decathlons are great chippies make a lot of noise and clatter about . At this time the ASI gets involved as a check to what you have done to self and aeroplane ideally at about 6000 <G or above  If the ASI is reading ( had one that refused to in right-hand spins) a speed that is BELOW the stalling speed If the ASI shows a pretty brisk increase  then I believe its a spiral . For gods sake some one pull me up if I have got it wrong !! The reason I asked was a bloke in the scrub a keen ultralight  sort of bloke but wants to be a red baron type guy ( I fear for) as he explained it other way to what I recall I was taught. Now stall =spin and spiral  recovery techniques were taught to me as different beasts. i.e. RUDDER IS is relative and  positive at all times. in spins ailerons ( type dependent)  can not be a given to behave as in normal flight elevators are not much use to you in most types. so in spins off with power  full OPPOSITE Rudder (fed progressively but very quickly) and incremental forward and smooth movement of stick = hopeful unstall of wings! Used to be a belt on the knuckles if ailerons were not kept neutral as spin begins to stop centralise rudder  again all smooth until spin stops. One thing I was in was a beast and oscillated like a maggot on a chop and was abit scary until got it sorted. One aerobat really bit when  at the top of a stuffed up (by me)  Loop with intent to roll out at top ended up on its back with a bit of right boot in and it all turned to a can of worms . Not sure  now how I even recovered  but back stick at one point early on was used. I went to owner of aircraft and threw self on sword as was concerned as heck that had overstressed aircraft. Luckily he was watching from the box and after inspection ( at my cost) all was ok. The point i was trying to make is a result of a much later FRIGHT in a 210 with a stoll kit without spin and basic aerobatic training feel sure that the fright may have been a bit more if not realising what the thing and the idiot flying (now typing)  had got themselves into. Sadly except same aircraft later bit a more experienced bloke and ruined a family and aircraft same strip same time same load same manoeuvre. Disclaimer:  writer is currently unlicensed unsafe and lacks memory. over to the pro’s Cheers P

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I would have to agree… Riding a bike has tought me alot about driving a car.  Like checking the lane NEXT to me before I move into it (mirrors only show you what’s behind you). My skills as a private pilot have improved (IMHO) since I started the Commercial theory.  As for spins, I think that they should be tought.  But I also think that drivers should be taught what a slide feels like and how to get out of it. As for the original question.. Spiral Dive     Airspeed increasing… Spin               Low constant Airspeed… Pete…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s just like driver training Phil. 99% of those on the road think they are good drivers, but, virtually none have ever done any sort of defensive, or advanced training. 95% of the drivers that I see on the roads are in marginal control of their vehicle at best, they just don’t know enough to know that (I’ll allow a few % for those who have some natural talent) In an ideal world, all drivers should be obliged to ride a motor bike for at least 2 years before stepping into a car.  The motor cycle survivors will be safe drivers. Pilots, unfortunately are exactly the same. The problem comes back to training costs (and probably relates to our other discussion about instructor experience and pay levels). And, of course, there is the ‘out’ for those that don’t want to go this route that ’spin training will cause accidents’. I doubt that being able to spin and a/c or otherwise will make a great difference to the overall accident rate, but I’m sure that it would help to give us pilots who are better able to handle their aircraft, even in normal situations. Being obliged to go into short-arsed one-way strips would help, too Ah, but inverted spinning…..now that’s fun. Never done it – curious about it, but…

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Avon W series were the best road boots by far in my day.  Cost a mint, but worth it.  We used Dunlop M&S for the rally car though, better on get away with.

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It’s just like driver training Phil. 99% of those on the road think they are good drivers, but, virtually none have ever done any sort of defensive, or advanced training. 95% of the drivers that I see on the roads are in marginal control of their vehicle at best, they just don’t know enough to know that (I’ll allow a few % for those who have some natural talent)

In an ideal world, all drivers should be obliged to ride a motor bike for at least 2 years before stepping into a car.  The motor cycle survivors will be safe drivers. Pilots, unfortunately are exactly the same. The problem comes back to training costs (and probably relates to our other discussion about instructor experience and pay levels). And, of course, there is the ‘out’ for those that don’t want to go this route that ’spin training will cause accidents’. I doubt that being able to spin and a/c or otherwise will make a great difference to the overall accident rate, but I’m sure that it would help to give us pilots who are better able to handle their aircraft, even in normal situations.

Being obliged to go into short-arsed one-way strips would help, too Ah, but inverted spinning…..now that’s fun.

Never done it – curious about it, but…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reading the many lines in the twin or single thread. It occurs to me that  some of the answers  indicate that  if ever one gets way out of shape a few may not know how to recover , never had being taught to spin. Eg some mention of aileron and rudder BTW I am very much a pro spin teach advocate . So in the spirit of learning and benefit of others who have not  yet had the fright of  working out (in very quick time)  what the difference is between a spin and a spiral dive. Lets ask a Question. Ted JV JB and those in the know sand bag for a while please and lets see what evolves. Question. Which instrument will tell you whether your in a spin or a spiral dive ? Cheers Phil

Ears. Coop (Who fully supports full spin training and the occasional revision of stalls during BFR’s) (Inverted? no thanks, still shaking the dust out of the clothing from the last time…..)

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That purile – and you know it.

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  Isn’t the airspeed indicator the main instrument used to identify a spin? Low forward airspeed in a spin, high forward airspeed in a spiral.  In a spin, you apply opposite rudder to the spin( or whatever the POH states)and forward elevator.  In a spiral dive, close throttle, stop rotation with aileron, and a smooth pull with back aileron to level flight, smooth being the word!  Did I remember correctly?  Regards, Andrew. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So again which primary instrument tells one  that your gone from spin to spiral? If one correctly identifies the situation in a single  what sort of control inputs would you use to get out of the spiral and recover? Would you use aileron or not? Cheers P This is where I miss the old cowboy Don as he used to give wonderful and didactic answers < big grin

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  Do you remember the Ford ad recently, where some woman was telling of how she rolled a Falcon, and how she had "oversteered" because she was not used to power steering?  I assume she meant she used excessive steering inputs, rather than having a larger slip angle on the rear tyres than the front!  I agree Phil, having just travelled to Lake MAcquarie and back six times in two weeks on the lovely F3 freeway(home of the moronic driver), the licensing system is at best pathetic.  I wish I had been given a lot more training in my early driving days, I sure as hell needed it.  I see people in huge 4wds, screaming down the freeway at 110km/h(was too fast for teh reflexes of the drivers of these cars, and the suspension, tyres and brakes), swerving in and out of lanes, the insides of the tread lifting off the road, and I wonder whether a; the car has ANY feedback to let them know that this is happening, or b; they just have no idea. I suspect b.  I always make the point of having excellent wet weather tyres on my cars, and to be doing the speed limit in a downpour( I love driving in the rain, has never bothered me), and have some idiot pass you in a two tonne plus piece of agricultural equipment, with tyres that are absolutely useless on roads, let alone in the rain, scares the crap out of me.  Don’t even start me on trailers, I believe there should be a seperate endorsement for towing anything, which should only be available after a set number of hours of professional training.  Regards, Andrew. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Returning to the car drivers you mentioned.  How many drivers know what understeer is, or oversteer ?  How many know how to recognize either developing ?  How many know how to recover from either condition.  Do any of them know that it is different in a front wheel V rear wheel drive ?  Do any have a clue what to do in either case if towing a trailer ?  Worse, how many even know how to regain control from a brake lockup on a wet road any more ?  ABS etc and generally good suburban roads and generally low speeds, does not prepare them for the once a year holiday trip belting along the expressway at 110 kph into a sudden downpour and subsequent aquaplaning etc.  Did you know that to get a NSW licence you don’t even have to be able to do a competent 3 point turn any more ?  Then on another tack,……. no….. don’t start me on navigation, yachties and gps. <<<< insert dummy – immediate

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Watching the twin versus single thread  and concentrating on Rudder aileron remarks had a bit of a shudder.

Rudder VERSUS aileron did not enter into that thread anywhere, Phil. And when aileron  *was* mentioned, it was confined toi 4degrees angle of bank, as recommended in operating manuals. So you were shuddering at shadows, mate.

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Watching the twin versus single thread  and concentrating on Rudder aileron remarks had a bit of a shudder. Rudder VERSUS aileron did not enter into that thread anywhere, Phil. And when aileron  *was* mentioned, it was confined toi 4degrees angle of bank, as recommended in operating manuals. So you were shuddering at shadows, mate.

(Turns down air conditioning) True Ted was mentally taking the scenario a bit further in that rather informative and "thought provoking thread" was all. My fault for not explaining that  at the time. Cheers

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ASI – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reading the many lines in the twin or single thread. It occurs to me that  some of the answers  indicate that  if ever one gets way out of shape a few may not know how to recover , never had being taught to spin. Eg some mention of aileron and rudder BTW I am very much a pro spin teach advocate . So in the spirit of learning and benefit of others who have not  yet had the fright of  working out (in very quick time)  what the difference is between a spin and a spiral dive. Lets ask a Question. Ted JV JB and those in the know sand bag for a while please and lets see what evolves. Question. Which instrument will tell you whether your in a spin or a spiral dive ? Cheers Phil

Response:

Hello PC, well, when I was doing my ab initio training I specifically asked my instructor to do some extra spins, stalls, and limit turns as I had always felt varying degrees of dis-satisfaction with what I had learned during the normal training. So we went out and revisited those sequences. And I was glad I did too. I felt much happier afterwards having spent the extra effort to familiarise myslef and feel a lot more comfortable with those sequences. To answer your question: ASI and Turn & Bank indicator Spin – low airspeed & balance ball at full deflection Spiral Dive – high(er) airspeed & balance ball nuetral Inverted spins (eeuuughhh – shudder) Now that’s a whole new challenge for moi ! Ben Matthes. Canberra, Australia. Aircraft Manager, Canberra Aero Club. http://www.canberra-aeroclub.com.au/

Response:

<snip And, of course, there is the ‘out’ for those that don’t want to go this route that ’spin training will cause accidents’. I doubt that being able to spin and a/c or otherwise will make a great difference to the overall accident rate, ……. <snip I can’t agree with you there, sorry.  I am a confirmed and committed spin training advocate, and if I had the power, would make it MANDATORY.  Just thought I would make that clear. Consider this.  What is the subsequent risk of not having taken that particular training risk.  How many accidents are actually really caused by NOT having proper comprehensive training in full spins and all the areas of incipient departures, secondary effects, etc. Administrators, statisticians and accountants conveniently forget to factor into their wonderful lists of figures for accidents the fact that very often the primary cause of some of those accidents is identified as (usually attributed to a "human factor") some form of pilot failure concerning awareness of attitude height speed angle of attack incipient stall buffet wing drop or whatever, that was previously provided or reinforced by the now deleted spin training element. Removing spin training from the syllabus and making aircraft that supposedly will not spin leads firstly to a false complacency that it won’t / can’t happen in the pilot’s mind, and secondly, through his lack of experience of it, he has no actual practical knowledge, sensation or perception, call it gut feel if you like, of the development of a situation where it may happen (eg, low, slow turn in turbulent or wind sheer conditions when landing at a strange strip and otherwise preoccupied) and invariably, some poor bastard gets caught, not through his own fault really, but through the fault of the system that told him he knew all he needed to know.  The subsequent accident investigation, after examination of the wreckage, simply reads, stall during final turn. The old timers learnt the hard way.  Spin training is vital – period. An incompletely trained pilot is an inherently dangerous pilot – period. Perhaps some day, after a number of accidents with pilots with the new non spin trained profiles, someone might suss what has really happened, and produce the earth shattering revelation of a "training deficiency". It’s called reinventing the wheel. I am just waiting for it to happen. Deskilling in anything, and relying on "technology", as a policy, is idiotic – period. Returning to the car drivers you mentioned.  How many drivers know what understeer is, or oversteer ?  How many know how to recognize either developing ?  How many know how to recover from either condition.  Do any of them know that it is different in a front wheel V rear wheel drive ?  Do any have a clue what to do in either case if towing a trailer ?  Worse, how many even know how to regain control from a brake lockup on a wet road any more ?  ABS etc and generally good suburban roads and generally low speeds, does not prepare them for the once a year holiday trip belting along the expressway at 110 kph into a sudden downpour and subsequent aquaplaning etc.  Did you know that to get a NSW licence you don’t even have to be able to do a competent 3 point turn any more ?  Then on another tack,……. no….. don’t start me on navigation, yachties and gps. <<<< insert dummy – immediate

Response:

Maybe we should have ‘Crash’ training as well, and be forced to learn how to help the ailing aircraft manufacture industry….. Sheeeeez

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip And, of course, there is the ‘out’ for those that don’t want to go this route that ’spin training will cause accidents’. I doubt that being able to spin and a/c or otherwise will make a great difference to the overall accident rate, ……. <snip I can’t agree with you there, sorry.  I am a confirmed and committed spin training advocate, and if I had the power, would make it MANDATORY.  Just thought I would make that clear. Consider this.  What is the subsequent risk of not having taken that particular training risk.  How many accidents are actually really caused by NOT having proper comprehensive training in full spins and all the areas of incipient departures, secondary effects, etc. Administrators, statisticians and accountants conveniently forget to factor into their wonderful lists of figures for accidents the fact that very often the primary cause of some of those accidents is identified as (usually attributed to a "human factor") some form of pilot failure concerning awareness of attitude height speed angle of attack incipient stall buffet wing drop or whatever, that was previously provided or reinforced by the now deleted spin training element. Removing spin training from the syllabus and making aircraft that supposedly will not spin leads firstly to a false complacency that it won’t / can’t happen in the pilot’s mind, and secondly, through his lack of experience of it, he has no actual practical knowledge, sensation or perception, call it gut feel if you like, of the development of a situation where it may happen (eg, low, slow turn in turbulent or wind sheer conditions when landing at a strange strip and otherwise preoccupied) and invariably, some poor bastard gets caught, not through his own fault really, but through the fault of the system that told him he knew all he needed to know.  The subsequent accident investigation, after examination of the wreckage, simply reads, stall during final turn. The old timers learnt the hard way.  Spin training is vital – period. An incompletely trained pilot is an inherently dangerous pilot – period. Perhaps some day, after a number of accidents with pilots with the new non spin trained profiles, someone might suss what has really happened, and produce the earth shattering revelation of a "training deficiency". It’s called reinventing the wheel. I am just waiting for it to happen. Deskilling in anything, and relying on "technology", as a policy, is idiotic – period. Returning to the car drivers you mentioned.  How many drivers know what understeer is, or oversteer ?  How many know how to recognize either developing ?  How many know how to recover from either condition.  Do any of them know that it is different in a front wheel V rear wheel drive ?  Do any have a clue what to do in either case if towing a trailer ?  Worse, how many even know how to regain control from a brake lockup on a wet road any more ?  ABS etc and generally good suburban roads and generally low speeds, does not prepare them for the once a year holiday trip belting along the expressway at 110 kph into a sudden downpour and subsequent aquaplaning etc.  Did you know that to get a NSW licence you don’t even have to be able to do a competent 3 point turn any more ?  Then on another tack,……. no….. don’t start me on navigation, yachties and gps. <<<< insert dummy – immediate

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s just like driver training Phil. 99% of those on the road think they are good drivers, but, virtually none have ever done any sort of defensive, or advanced training. 95% of the drivers that I see on the roads are in marginal control of their vehicle at best, they just don’t know enough to know that (I’ll allow a few % for those who have some natural talent) Pilots, unfortunately are exactly the same. The problem comes back to training costs (and probably relates to our other discussion about instructor experience and pay levels). And, of course, there is the ‘out’ for those that don’t want to go this route that ’spin training will cause accidents’. I doubt that being able to spin and a/c or otherwise will make a great difference to the overall accident rate, but I’m sure that it would help to give us pilots who are better able to handle their aircraft, even in normal situations. Ah, but inverted spinning…..now that’s fun. JB

Reply: Valid points all. Another out is the often trotted out old hoary that modern aircraft have had all the nastiness ‘designed "out of them (choke cough splutter) One point of view that perhaps has some currency is that a little knowledge can become dangerous to those of the ‘ I am ten feet tall and bullet proof mindset" who equipped with a little bit of quasi aerobatic knowledge can get them selves into strife   pushing a perceived knowledge envelope. Bit like instrument training I suppose, in relation to pressing the weather Gods. I have yet to meet just one who went through military training streams  who is not an advocate for the subject at hand. That’s why I have no hesitation in pushing Noel Cruse and his instructors at Sydney aerobatic school as every graduate I recall also has a basic aero ability and endorsement before they go into the industry and commit aviation. I recall Chesty Bond up in QLd also uses similar syllabi. You mention Inverted spinning!!  EEK!   [Grin and dark blue stirring mode on] I don’t think you had done your course as when the Navy when using Macchis was in the time of proper aircraft {Winjeel} Sent a few instructors back to Nowra from Pearce  who got one into strife by teaching the students  spins INVERTED in macchis . Was a different method as taught to the crabs.(no offence in that word)  I recall they lost one but crew became members of caterpillar club Getting back  the ability to recover on instruments is a handy bit of knowledge and thinking on  the younger Kennedy prang of a few years ago in the states. is a text book example that may prove my contention. Watching the twin versus single thread  and concentrating on Rudder aileron remarks had a bit of a shudder. So again which primary instrument tells one  that your gone from spin to spiral? If one correctly identifies the situation in a single  what sort of control inputs would you use to get out of the spiral and recover? Would you use aileron or not? Cheers P This is where I miss the old cowboy Don as he used to give wonderful and didactic answers < big grin

Response:

It’s just like driver training Phil. 99% of those on the road think they are good drivers, but, virtually none have ever done any sort of defensive, or advanced training. 95% of the drivers that I see on the roads are in marginal control of their vehicle at best, they just don’t know enough to know that (I’ll allow a few % for those who have some natural talent) Pilots, unfortunately are exactly the same. The problem comes back to training costs (and probably relates to our other discussion about instructor experience and pay levels). And, of course, there is the ‘out’ for those that don’t want to go this route that ’spin training will cause accidents’. I doubt that being able to spin and a/c or otherwise will make a great difference to the overall accident rate, but I’m sure that it would help to give us pilots who are better able to handle their aircraft, even in normal situations. Ah, but inverted spinning…..now that’s fun. JB

Response:

trousers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reading the many lines in the twin or single thread. It occurs to me that  some of the answers  indicate that  if ever one gets way out of shape a few may not know how to recover , never had being taught to spin. Eg some mention of aileron and rudder BTW I am very much a pro spin teach advocate . So in the spirit of learning and benefit of others who have not  yet had the fright of  working out (in very quick time)  what the difference is between a spin and a spiral dive. Lets ask a Question. Ted JV JB and those in the know sand bag for a while please and lets see what evolves. Question. Which instrument will tell you whether your in a spin or a spiral dive ? Cheers Phil

— Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Reading the many lines in the twin or single thread. It occurs to me that  some of the answers  indicate that  if ever one gets way out of shape a few may not know how to recover , never had being taught to spin. Eg some mention of aileron and rudder BTW I am very much a pro spin teach advocate . So in the spirit of learning and benefit of others who have not  yet had the fright of  working out (in very quick time)  what the difference is between a spin and a spiral dive. Lets ask a Question. Ted JV JB and those in the know sand bag for a while please and lets see what evolves. Question. Which instrument will tell you whether your in a spin or a spiral dive ? Cheers Phil

Response:

Question:

This is beginning to sound like that Swift satire on the war over opening the hard boiled egg at the big end vs. the small end. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Top posting is preferred because many people use small screen devices like cell phones, PDAs, etc. Also many use slow internet connections. Top posters should be banned from Usenet and slaughtered mercilessly. "Live long and prosper." To reply remove no spam from my e-mail address. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

– *             Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A.                  * *  Unemployed for six years, mistake of being an accountant.  * *   Students, when someone tells you of your great future as  * *       an accountant, ask him to show you the job.           *

Response:

We have recently had some ardent discussion here regarding the etiquette of posting, specifically whether responses should be at the top or the bottom. While I follow what I understand is proper netiquette and respond at the bottom, I have noticed that one of my mail readers (AT&T) automatically responds at the top unless I force it to do otherwise. The reader I’m presently using (K Node) has no bias – it will do it either way with equal ease.

Top posters should be banned from Usenet and slaughtered mercilessly. Shawn Pickrell

Response:

Top posting is preferred because many people use small screen devices like cell phones, PDAs, etc. Also many use slow internet connections.   Top posters should be banned from Usenet and slaughtered mercilessly.

"Live long and prosper." To reply remove no spam from my e-mail address. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Order is essential to life, but most of us resent the restrictions on our behavior that the maintenance of order requires, particularly when we are young.

The other key is that, by definition, many of these restrictions are arbitrary–that is, they represent a convention that may be no better or worse than various alternatives.  But by being a convention, they make it easier for all to deal with the operation of the group than having to deal with no convention.   I actually think Microsoft could have done the world a whole lot of good had they set the default in Outlook to *NO* quoting <grin, but then that’s simply my bias because I see a huge number of posts with no editing done whatsoever on the quoted material.  Human behavior is such that most people will take the easy way out, and so will simply not edit out quoted material to reduce it to only the portions that are relevant to the response. For many years I participated in groups on the old CompuServe service. There, due to the fact that you were charged an hourly rate for access (so extra characters essentially translated into dollars), virtually no one in most groups quoted anything from previous posts.  The system actually worked fairly well, since users knew to simply go read the posts ahead of the current reply in the thread if they needed context. I’ve seen quite a few occasions here on usenet where quoting ended up with fouled up attributions–effectively suggesting someone said something they didn’t say.  I would suggest most readers should consider editing quotes if for no other reason to help reduce the chance that they will be deemed to have said something that was actually said by someone else.

Response:

Hopefully my providing the pointers was not (mis)interpreted as trying to dictate. That is not what I was trying to do. Furthermore, I was rather pointing to the problem of repeating scams by (re)posting them in full. Rather than being worried about the order of the text in a posting. You’ll also note that the present discussions actually did not so much start from the netiquette itself, but from postings which involved being a bit uninformed about one’s concepts and in one’s attributions. An ad hominem quips aspect also now seems to have crept in in some of the recent postings.

Hi Timo, Thanks for a thoughtful response to my post. I understand what you are trying to do, but then I’m 61 years old and a lifelong student of human behavior.   Based on some of the responses, I do think your efforts were misinterpreted by some, which is why I’m attempting to approach the matter from a slightly different direction. Order is essential to life, but most of us resent the restrictions on our behavior that the maintenance of order requires, particularly when we are young. Simply put, most of us resent the cops – until it is our own house that is being burgled, and then we can’t get to them quick enough. I did read the material you referenced – http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/netiquet.html   In my opinion it is excellent. Jim

Response:

We have recently had some ardent discussion here regarding the etiquette of posting, specifically whether responses should be at the top or the bottom. While I follow what I understand is proper netiquette and respond at the bottom, I have noticed that one of my mail readers (AT&T) automatically responds at the top unless I force it to do otherwise. The reader I’m presently using (K Node) has no bias – it will do it either way with equal ease. — Jim Hudspeth, CFE, CPA   http://survivalworks.com

Response:

We have recently had some ardent discussion here regarding the etiquette of posting, specifically whether responses should be at the top or the bottom.

Jim, to tone this down a few notes, since I am one of the posters who has been providing the netiquette pointers. By its nature the netiquette (mostly) is just a set of established recommendations. Are they useful, that is a matter of personal choice. More on that aspect at the reference http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/netiquet.html in case anyone is interested the points why the netiquette makes some sense. Hopefully my providing the pointers was not (mis)interpreted as trying to dictate. That is not what I was trying to do. Furthermore, I was rather pointing to the problem of repeating scams by (re)posting them in full. Rather than being worried about the order of the text in a posting. You’ll also note that the present discussions actually did not so much start from the netiquette itself, but from postings which involved being a bit uninformed about one’s concepts and in one’s attributions. An ad hominem quips aspect also now seems to have crept in in some of the recent postings. While I follow what I understand is proper netiquette and respond at the bottom, I have noticed that one of my mail readers (AT&T) automatically responds at the top unless I force it to do otherwise.

In fact the program that you mention is not the only one doing so. Top posting suddenly became much more prevalent with the defaults of Outlook Express. Top posting is not a big problem, as such, if at all. But it sometimes unnecessarily adds to the load when the threads grow, makes reading more difficult, and can make the responses seem sloppy. That’s all.    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

Response:

Question:

One interesting book we have used in this area of inquiry and debate is ‘Robert R Sterling, Toward a Science of Accounting, Scholars Book Co, ISBN 0-914348-31-0, where he starts off with ‘From an Elusive Art’ and then develops ‘Toward an Embryonic Science’. Anyone seriously considering the topic should avail themselves of Sterling’s ponderings. This topic has arisen before, and you can find it by tracing through the archives on Google under the heading. You conclusions would be interesting Peter French Principal, Carlyle Education Pty Ltd Melbourne, Australia Albert Einstein said that. "…it is in fact nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of enquiry; for this delicate little plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom; without this it goes to wrack and ruin without fail…’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to know if you think accounting is an art or a science. If Actually it’s a discpline Dear Michael, You are quite correct about the discipline. The content of the question is sensible, however. One can discuss in this connection whether the science of accounting and the scientific discipline parallel and interact. That is a line that sometimes is taken up with regard to business related sciences (broadly termed as business economics). In the 1970’s this was a particularly big subject in one of the disciplines within the general field. That happened in the discipline of operations research (also called a bit more extensively, but sometimes confusingly, management science). The field had a big identity crisis when it was observed that management practices and the discipline were very much apart. So much so that the results of models developed within the science had little or no real-life applications. This is in fact which in time led to a rather successful renaming of part of the field of operations research. It led to the now familiar term management decision support systems (MIS). Now a subjective feel in the matter. Every discipline, including the fields of accounting and finance (where I have my own position) is faced with similar ponderings. I venture that your discipline does relatively well in that respect, even if there always is much to improve in the interaction between the academics and the professionals. A complicating side issue (let’s leave it for later) is that there are many, partly overlapping subfileds within accounting, such as auditing, accounting or bookkeeping principles (the accounting theory), international accounting, financial statement analysis, and management accounting, to quickly list a few. Incidentally, are there any other accounting and/or finance university scholars around reading this newgroup besides you all much respected professionals?    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

Response:

I would like to know if you think accounting is an art or a science.  If Actually it’s a discpline

Dear Michael, You are quite correct about the discipline. The content of the question is sensible, however. One can discuss in this connection whether the science of accounting and the scientific discipline parallel and interact. That is a line that sometimes is taken up with regard to business related sciences (broadly termed as business economics). In the 1970’s this was a particularly big subject in one of the disciplines within the general field. That happened in the discipline of operations research (also called a bit more extensively, but sometimes confusingly, management science). The field had a big identity crisis when it was observed that management practices and the discipline were very much apart. So much so that the results of models developed within the science had little or no real-life applications. This is in fact which in time led to a rather successful renaming of part of the field of operations research. It led to the now familiar term management decision support systems (MIS). Now a subjective feel in the matter. Every discipline, including the fields of accounting and finance (where I have my own position) is faced with similar ponderings. I venture that your discipline does relatively well in that respect, even if there always is much to improve in the interaction between the academics and the professionals. A complicating side issue (let’s leave it for later) is that there are many, partly overlapping subfileds within accounting, such as auditing, accounting or bookkeeping principles (the accounting theory), international accounting, financial statement analysis, and management accounting, to quickly list a few. Incidentally, are there any other accounting and/or finance university scholars around reading this newgroup besides you all much respected professionals?    All the best, Timo — Prof. Timo Salmi ftp & http://garbo.uwasa.fi/ archives 193.166.120.5 Department of Accounting and Business Finance  ; University of Vaasa Acc. Journals Links  http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/opas/jott/jottjour.html

Response:

Hello! I would like to know if you think accounting is an art or a science.  If you have formed an opinion on this topic and would like to post it as a review please click the following link where you will be taken to Theglobalview.com and you can write about this topic of discussion: http://www.theglobalview.com/review.php?categoryid=1&topicid=19 Thanks! Adam

Response:

Actually it’s a discpline

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I would like to know if you think accounting is an art or a science.  If you have formed an opinion on this topic and would like to post it as a review please click the following link where you will be taken to Theglobalview.com and you can write about this topic of discussion: http://www.theglobalview.com/review.php?categoryid=1&topicid=19 Thanks! Adam

Response:

Question:

[ a = a = Working together.html 5K ]

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Promote the partner business services concurrently with group e-commerce – Joint Franchises Supplement group business solutionsThe capital Finder would receive group equity negotiated shares ad become a Board of Directors MemberAs finder/capital partner would appoint Board of Directors MembersWould expand with the group internationally andAs a large Joint Venture [JV] area Finder would you would benefit from all paragraph 1 to 3About Group Innovation: The group is proprietary of jobs skills courseware [Over 40] and Education- Business user- friendly multiple modules accounting software [Over 10] including an innovative learning methodology. In addition, the group has e-commerce innovation ideas and would distribute general courseware and implement the joint franchise module ready to go. You will be surprised of other features found at the designed group sites, The e-commerce project and implementation of the joint franchise module would take about 3 months. JV partners would use the Canadian module and send initial executives to be trained in Canada at branch-franchise classroom-seminars module. The large areas of exclusive JV [www.LearnJobsGroup.com/jv&fpic.htm] would have great rights including sub JVs. The combination of e-commerce continuing education and general education courseware and franchise module in each area is a huge market to explore and amazingly confirms Education Anywhere Anytime. About e-commerce practicality: The group intention is to have a promptly comprehensive home page by lay shoppers and other Web sites to help clients understand and/or surf them promptly without flashing wasting time and cause them confusion. For example, as you access this site you would look first at special products or services & benefits such as the innovative methodology, then – if surfers like benefits – access product or service desired for easy shopping of what is offered at its site. At the group specialized site you would first look bow to implement those products or services, then shop and/or find details of specific item line at order price list. If clients wish to look for a great variety of products/services or be entertained at the home page they would click on ‘Most popular Web sites

Question:

Most of the new dsp chips being used are manufactured "in-house" Think about how many celeron’s are being sold, then think about how many aids, with the different models and manufacturers.  Intel would laugh at Bill Austin(Starkey) if he asked them to make it. They wouldn’t go thru the trouble to re-tool for the order they would get… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -zaf…@my-deja.com wrote: > Thanks for the excellent and well informed post.  I would like to > challange you on the following point: > In article <3957E811.FB6A8…@none.none>, >   Bob <n…@none.none> wrote: >   The cost of the > digital > > circuitry alone usually exceeds $200, not including amortizing in the > > R&D expense. > If you are talking about a bag of components WITHOUT transducers (mikes > & speakers), then you are paying way too much unless you are buying JAN > grade (i.e. military) parts.  I would be shocked to find leaded > components in a hearing aid, they take up waaaayyyy too much room. > Electronics are dirt cheap.  You can buy a top notch op amp for <$1 > these days, smt resistors <1 cent a piece, tantalum caps are expensive > relatively speaking we pay about a penny per microfarad @16V.  I don’t > know what you pay for your DSP, but silicon cost boils down to die size > at a given technology.  If intel can sell a celeron for $80, there is no > reason you should be paying more (unless your die size is bigger, which > i think unlikely). > I design high end computers ($200K and up), and even I cannot appreciate > how inexpensive electronics can be.  If you have any doubt, open up a > $60 VCR and look at all those resistors, caps, and analog stuff, I don’t > know how the do it, but they do. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.

Response:

We are already able to get loaner instruments at reduced prices and many of us do…We allow all patients to demo BTE’s in their homes if they wish…If they are insistent on trying ITE’s or similar custom products then they must purchase them with a sixty day full refund guarantee…GG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kerri wrote: > Bob wrote: > > This brings me to the last important cost

Question:

The way I see this is as follows: Purchased original xformer:             $100,000 Depreciated original xformer:           –  30,000 Received loss payment from ins.         –  30,000 Received trade-in on old xformer:       –    4,750 Purchased new xformer:                  +  47,000 Total depriciable basis in new xformer:  $ 82,250 Expense the removal, unsure about the new install. disclaimer – I am not an accountant. This is the way I personally interpret the IRS instructions within my personal unincorportated business. I cannot be held accountable for any penalties or legalities from the use of this interpretation. Pilot_CPA wrote The way I understand the facts is the company received cash from the insurance company as recovery of a loss.  However, the company still owned the asset right?  The company then turned around and exchanged the asset for a similar productive asset.  The company gave up an asset valued at $30,000 for an asset valued at $47,000.  You have a gain in this exchange that should not be recognized up front.  How can it not be an exchange of similar assets?

SNIP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My company had a transformer that went bad.  Say the transformer originally cost 100,000 with depreciation of 30,000 taken.  The cost to remove the transformer was 7,000.  We received $30,000 from our insurance company. Instead of repairing the bad transformer, we traded in the old transformer for a new transformer with an invoice cost of 47,000 and they also gave us $4750.  Our costs to install this transformer was $18,000. I’m not sure of the journal entry that is needed in this case. I’ve tried to look up transactions when equipment is traded in for other equipment, but the explanations aren’t clear and the installation/removal costs of the transformers also confuse the issue. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

Response:

If you can capitalize the cost of razing an old building before you build a new one, why can’t you capitalize the cost of removing an old transformer before putting in the new one? Kate (inquiring minds and all that…..)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The removal costs must be expensed.

Response:

I would, but I’ve already said I’m no fixed asset specialist.  The CPA exam book I’m studying from says that the cost of a fixed asset is "all costs necessary to get the asset to the work site and to prepare it for use. Included can be the cost of negotiations, sales taxes, finders’ fees, razing an old building, shipment, installation, preliminary testing and so forth." So I think you could make a case for it. Kate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: alt.accounting Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 8:20 AM You still treat a transaction as non-monetary when the amount of cash is insignificant to the transaction.  I think you are right that this would not qualify as non-monetary.  Would you consider the removal costs as costs necessary to put the new asset in service, or is that taking it too far? Dick K.

Response:

The way I understand the facts is the company received cash from the insurance company as recovery of a loss.  However, the company still owned the asset right?  The company then turned around and exchanged the asset for a similar productive asset.  The company gave up an asset valued at $30,000 for an asset valued at $47,000.  You have a gain in this exchange that should not be recognized up front.  How can it not be an exchange of similar assets?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is this a non-monterary exchange of assets? Later… David S. Refer to APB29 as this provides guidance nonmonetary exchanges of assets. This exchange also included boot, which will affect the answer. However, the first step would be to write down the asset to the net realizable value (as you have an impaired asset)…..which would be $30,000.  You have a gain in this case, but you can’t recognize the gain up front…  it must be deferred over the life of the asset.  APB 29 will give you the answers. My company had a transformer that went bad.  Say the transformer originally cost 100,000 with depreciation of 30,000 taken.  The cost to remove the transformer was 7,000.  We received $30,000 from our insurance company. Instead of repairing the bad transformer, we traded in the old transformer for a new transformer with an invoice cost of 47,000 and they also gave us $4750.  Our costs to install this transformer was $18,000. I’m not sure of the journal entry that is needed in this case.  I’ve tried to look up transactions when equipment is traded in for other equipment, but the explanations aren’t clear and the installation/removal costs of the transformers also confuse the issue. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

Response:

The removal costs must be expensed.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You still treat a transaction as non-monetary when the amount of cash is insignificant to the transaction.  I think you are right that this would not qualify as non-monetary.  Would you consider the removal costs as costs necessary to put the new asset in service, or is that taking it too far? Dick K. I don’t think it is.  I was under the impression that non-monetary exchange of assets occurred when one company gave something to another company in exchange for something else.  APB29 then tells both companies how the new assets should be recorded on their respective books. In this case the old asset needs to be taken off the books (taking a loss) and the new one needs to be added and then depreciated over the life of the asset. Kate Why is this a non-monterary exchange of assets? Later… David S.

Response:

I would treat this as selling the old transformer (to the ins co and the company you bought the new xformer from) for 30K+the trade-in value note the gain or loss on the sale then purchase the new one and depreciate the full value i’d expense the $7000 that’s just my $0.02 Cheers. Bb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My company had a transformer that went bad.  Say the transformer originally cost 100,000 with depreciation of 30,000 taken.  The cost to remove the transformer was 7,000.  We received $30,000 from our insurance company. Instead of repairing the bad transformer, we traded in the old transformer for a new transformer with an invoice cost of 47,000 and they also gave us $4750.  Our costs to install this transformer was $18,000. I’m not sure of the journal entry that is needed in this case.  I’ve tried to look up transactions when equipment is traded in for other equipment, but the explanations aren’t clear and the installation/removal costs of the transformers also confuse the issue. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

Response:

Refer to APB29 as this provides guidance nonmonetary exchanges of assets. This exchange also included boot, which will affect the answer.  However, the first step would be to write down the asset to the net realizable value (as you have an impaired asset)…..which would be $30,000.  You have a gain in this case, but you can’t recognize the gain up front…  it must be deferred over the life of the asset.  APB 29 will give you the answers.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My company had a transformer that went bad.  Say the transformer originally cost 100,000 with depreciation of 30,000 taken.  The cost to remove the transformer was 7,000.  We received $30,000 from our insurance company. Instead of repairing the bad transformer, we traded in the old transformer for a new transformer with an invoice cost of 47,000 and they also gave us $4750.  Our costs to install this transformer was $18,000. I’m not sure of the journal entry that is needed in this case.  I’ve tried to look up transactions when equipment is traded in for other equipment, but the explanations aren’t clear and the installation/removal costs of the transformers also confuse the issue. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

Response:

Why is this a non-monterary exchange of assets? Later… David S.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Refer to APB29 as this provides guidance nonmonetary exchanges of assets. This exchange also included boot, which will affect the answer.  However, the first step would be to write down the asset to the net realizable value (as you have an impaired asset)…..which would be $30,000.  You have a gain in this case, but you can’t recognize the gain up front…  it must be deferred over the life of the asset.  APB 29 will give you the answers. My company had a transformer that went bad.  Say the transformer originally cost 100,000 with depreciation of 30,000 taken.  The cost to remove the transformer was 7,000.  We received $30,000 from our insurance company. Instead of repairing the bad transformer, we traded in the old transformer for a new transformer with an invoice cost of 47,000 and they also gave us $4750.  Our costs to install this transformer was $18,000. I’m not sure of the journal entry that is needed in this case.  I’ve tried to look up transactions when equipment is traded in for other equipment, but the explanations aren’t clear and the installation/removal costs of the transformers also confuse the issue. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

Response:

I don’t think it is.  I was under the impression that non-monetary exchange of assets occurred when one company gave something to another company in exchange for something else.  APB29 then tells both companies how the new assets should be recorded on their respective books. In this case the old asset needs to be taken off the books (taking a loss) and the new one needs to be added and then depreciated over the life of the asset. Kate

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is this a non-monterary exchange of assets? Later… David S.

Response:

You still treat a transaction as non-monetary when the amount of cash is insignificant to the transaction.  I think you are right that this would not qualify as non-monetary.  Would you consider the removal costs as costs necessary to put the new asset in service, or is that taking it too far? Dick K.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think it is.  I was under the impression that non-monetary exchange of assets occurred when one company gave something to another company in exchange for something else.  APB29 then tells both companies how the new assets should be recorded on their respective books. In this case the old asset needs to be taken off the books (taking a loss) and the new one needs to be added and then depreciated over the life of the asset. Kate Why is this a non-monterary exchange of assets? Later… David S.

Response:

IMHO all costs are repairs and  maintenance. LAter…. David S.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My company had a transformer that went bad.  Say the transformer originally cost 100,000 with depreciation of 30,000 taken.  The cost to remove the transformer was 7,000.  We received $30,000 from our insurance company. Instead of repairing the bad transformer, we traded in the old transformer for a new transformer with an invoice cost of 47,000 and they also gave us $4750.  Our costs to install this transformer was $18,000. I’m not sure of the journal entry that is needed in this case.  I’ve tried to look up transactions when equipment is traded in for other equipment, but the explanations aren’t clear and the installation/removal costs of the transformers also confuse the issue. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

Response:

Thanks for your help, but I don’t need help with my homework.  I work for a rural utility company and would appreciate any serious replies.  Thanks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had the same homework question when I took that course 30 years ago, but I see they’ve increased all the numbers by a factor of 10.  I think I got it right, but it was a long time ago and I don’t remember the answer now. My company had a transformer that went bad.  Say the transformer originally cost 100,000 with depreciation of 30,000 taken.  The cost to remove the transformer was 7,000.  We received $30,000 from our insurance company. Instead of repairing the bad transformer, we traded in the old transformer for a new transformer with an invoice cost of 47,000 and they also gave us $4750.  Our costs to install this transformer was $18,000. I’m not sure of the journal entry that is needed in this case. I’ve tried to look up transactions when equipment is traded in for other equipment, but the explanations aren’t clear and the installation/removal costs of the transformers also confuse the issue. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

Response:

My company had a transformer that went bad.  Say the transformer originally cost 100,000 with depreciation of 30,000 taken.  The cost to remove the transformer was 7,000.  We received $30,000 from our insurance company. Instead of repairing the bad transformer, we traded in the old transformer for a new transformer with an invoice cost of 47,000 and they also gave us $4750.  Our costs to install this transformer was $18,000. I’m not sure of the journal entry that is needed in this case.  I’ve tried to look up transactions when equipment is traded in for other equipment, but the explanations aren’t clear and the installation/removal costs of the transformers also confuse the issue. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

Response:

I had the same homework question when I took that course 30 years ago, but I see they’ve increased all the numbers by a factor of 10.  I think I got it right, but it was a long time ago and I don’t remember the answer now.

My company had a transformer that went bad.  Say the

transformer originally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cost 100,000 with depreciation of 30,000 taken.  The cost to remove the transformer was 7,000.  We received $30,000 from our insurance company. Instead of repairing the bad transformer, we traded in the old transformer for a new transformer with an invoice cost of 47,000 and they also gave us $4750.  Our costs to install this transformer was $18,000. I’m not sure of the journal entry that is needed in this case. I’ve tried to look up transactions when equipment is traded in for other equipment, but the explanations aren’t clear and the installation/removal costs of the transformers also confuse the issue. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it.  Thanks.

Response:

Question:

Way to go Todooeoeoeo!!!! Figuring out what was the problem is worth celebrating in and of itself, finding ways to work with your company but *not* take on solving the unsolvable problems created by someone else (does that sum up my last six months of therapy or what?? grin) is worth some kind of award. We should invent an asd version of the oscar… only there is no competition anyone nominated wins.. and Best Self Advocate goes to… Todoe! Alice et al – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Okay, I figured out the trigger on that particular temp job. Took a few days, but I got it. Last Friday when I walked in, the guy Steve said, "Oh, so you’re the Quickbooks expert." Obviously I wasn’t aware at the time how threatening that felt.  Quickbooks being accounting software for small businesses. He spent little time with me, just kind of throwing stuff at me and saying what he wanted done.  Then left, being a salesman. As I dug into the stuff, I was led in circles and circles.  Start trying to figure out one thing that led to another to another to another.  Everything was a mess. Nothing was done right. And I kept thinking I was wasting time.  After all, I was the "Quickbooks Expert." I found out later that the company that sent me there did not make such an extravagant claim. Besides nobody ever said I was the f*cked up set of books of the century expert. Then Tuesday I went in and he wanted me to get this one thing done more than anything. I ended up calling the software manufacturere Intuit for tech support (which I’ve often done in other situations).  I asked Steve how he wanted the tech support billed. He acted irritated, and told me to call my company and tell them to pay for it since they were sending me a "Quickbooks expert."  Ooohh.  There went that dumb phrase again. Well, one of us told him quite calmly and seriously,  "It really isn’t reasonable to expect ANYONE to know how to do every single thing in ANY software.   It isn’t unusual to use tech support." He didn’t say much but said emphatically I was not to call tech support and he’d find it on the web. Well, I called my company and said that was it, I wanted out of there. Called back a while later and said I could just adjust to his crap. Yesterday before I went in I called to say I’d had a family emergency, didn’t say it was a family by choice emergency which it was, to deal with. The receptionist acted real annoyed. Okay, strike 3.  Called my company and told the story and said "Just because they f*cked up their books, (oh excuse me, I said), doesn’t mean I have to go in there and get all stressed out.  Which means I can’t stay there." Okay, so she and I talked and I went from not wanting to   go in at all to being willing to put in some hours – with an upper limit based on my intolerance for ab*se, hehe.  And she would be working on finding a replacement, who I would be willing to spend an hour "training" – passing on what I’d done and learned. So when I got there yesterday, she told me that Steve wanted this and such done and he wanted it done by the time he got back to the office. I told her with great inner satisfaction which I didn’t allow to show that there would be a new person coming in to replace me later on in the day. And in my mind added without saying, "So f*ck you and your f*cked up set of books and f*cked up attitude that if you guys put enough pressure on me I can mag*cally make what is so messed up instantly right." I was determined that they were not going to set me off like that yesterday, and I did reasonably well. My replacement showed up and I briefed her on what I had already done, what I knew was needed, and the whole f*cked up situation there. Poor thing.  If Steve thought I wasn’t enough of a "Quickbooks expert", wait till he tries her. Only now they’ve had someone walk out on them and been told it was personality conflicts (the polite version of what I told my compan – the temp agency). It was so tough going in there yesterday, but yet satisfying to not just run away, thereby maintaining decent relations with the temp agency. Also I have to say it felt awesomely wonderful to in effect say  that I didn’t deserve this kind of treatment etc, and I wasn’t going to put up with it any more. YES!! To walk out having made the choice relatively early myself.  Rather than sticking it out and continuing to attribute all problems to me, leading to more and more problems. Yesterday, I decided no no no, it isn’t just me having knee jerk reactions. I always tend to think that, but no.  This situation is nuts. And I have rarely been happier to walk away from a job. So why do I still feel so lousy today? Maybe they call it "stress." Todooeoeo

Someonelse       " I am a poster girl with no poster    I am 32 flavors and then some…"                             Ani Difranco

Response:

first of all i want to say  WAY TO GO!!!!!!  BRAVO!!!!! YOU ARE TRULY AWESOME!!!!!! and my only question is:  Was your replacement really an outsider, or was it one of you?  <g shiloh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I figured out the trigger on that particular temp job. Took a few days, but I got it. Last Friday when I walked in, the guy Steve said, "Oh, so you’re the Quickbooks expert." Obviously I wasn’t aware at the time how threatening that felt.  Quickbooks being accounting software for small businesses. He spent little time with me, just kind of throwing stuff at me and saying what he wanted done.  Then left, being a salesman. As I dug into the stuff, I was led in circles and circles.  Start trying to figure out one thing that led to another to another to another.  Everything was a mess. Nothing was done right. And I kept thinking I was wasting time.  After all, I was the "Quickbooks Expert." I found out later that the company that sent me there did not make such an extravagant claim. Besides nobody ever said I was the f*cked up set of books of the century expert. Then Tuesday I went in and he wanted me to get this one thing done more than anything. I ended up calling the software manufacturere Intuit for tech support (which I’ve often done in other situations).  I asked Steve how he wanted the tech support billed. He acted irritated, and told me to call my company and tell them to pay for it since they were sending me a "Quickbooks expert."  Ooohh.  There went that dumb phrase again. Well, one of us told him quite calmly and seriously,  "It really isn’t reasonable to expect ANYONE to know how to do every single thing in ANY software.   It isn’t unusual to use tech support." He didn’t say much but said emphatically I was not to call tech support and he’d find it on the web. Well, I called my company and said that was it, I wanted out of there. Called back a while later and said I could just adjust to his crap. Yesterday before I went in I called to say I’d had a family emergency, didn’t say it was a family by choice emergency which it was, to deal with. The receptionist acted real annoyed. Okay, strike 3.  Called my company and told the story and said "Just because they f*cked up their books, (oh excuse me, I said), doesn’t mean I have to go in there and get all stressed out.  Which means I can’t stay there." Okay, so she and I talked and I went from not wanting to   go in at all to being willing to put in some hours – with an upper limit based on my intolerance for ab*se, hehe.  And she would be working on finding a replacement, who I would be willing to spend an hour "training" – passing on what I’d done and learned. So when I got there yesterday, she told me that Steve wanted this and such done and he wanted it done by the time he got back to the office. I told her with great inner satisfaction which I didn’t allow to show that there would be a new person coming in to replace me later on in the day. And in my mind added without saying, "So f*ck you and your f*cked up set of books and f*cked up attitude that if you guys put enough pressure on me I can mag*cally make what is so messed up instantly right." I was determined that they were not going to set me off like that yesterday, and I did reasonably well. My replacement showed up and I briefed her on what I had already done, what I knew was needed, and the whole f*cked up situation there. Poor thing.  If Steve thought I wasn’t enough of a "Quickbooks expert", wait till he tries her. Only now they’ve had someone walk out on them and been told it was personality conflicts (the polite version of what I told my compan – the temp agency). It was so tough going in there yesterday, but yet satisfying to not just run away, thereby maintaining decent relations with the temp agency. Also I have to say it felt awesomely wonderful to in effect say  that I didn’t deserve this kind of treatment etc, and I wasn’t going to put up with it any more. YES!! To walk out having made the choice relatively early myself.  Rather than sticking it out and continuing to attribute all problems to me, leading to more and more problems. Yesterday, I decided no no no, it isn’t just me having knee jerk reactions. I always tend to think that, but no.  This situation is nuts. And I have rarely been happier to walk away from a job. So why do I still feel so lousy today? Maybe they call it "stress." Todooeoeo

Response:

You feel lousy for one of several reasons (or a combination). One, you are a perfectionist and ’should have’ been able to handle anything ~ Two, the job didn’t seem _that_ complicated (aka it wasn’t the end of the universe, you’ve handled worse in your life, what’s the Big Deal [tm]) so you ’should have’ just dealt with it ~~ Three, you ‘let someone down’ (major no-no) and now they ‘won’t like you’ ~~~ Four, basic common sense guilt that says you agreed to do a job and didn’t finish it (and then kick in the perfectionist and ’should haves’ and what not to push this into the unreasonable level of insanity that we survivors are so good at) ~~~~ Of course these are all just your average basic old tapes stuffed in your brain in childhood so you also ‘know’ perfectly well that this is all bullsh*t and that you ’should be’ ignoring them and feeling good about yourself. So you get to beat yourself up about _that_ as well! Meanwhile, _I’m_ totally impressed and way proud of what you did. I’m not in the middle of it so I can ignore the tapes and see ‘past’ them in this instance to see that you handled a terrible situation very well! I’m sure you’d see the same for me if our roles were reversed:) Rainbow Colors (Jill) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I figured out the trigger on that particular temp job. Took a few days, but I got it. Last Friday when I walked in, the guy Steve said, "Oh, so you’re the Quickbooks expert." Obviously I wasn’t aware at the time how threatening that felt.  Quickbooks being accounting software for small businesses. He spent little time with me, just kind of throwing stuff at me and saying what he wanted done.  Then left, being a salesman. As I dug into the stuff, I was led in circles and circles.  Start trying to figure out one thing that led to another to another to another.  Everything was a mess. Nothing was done right. And I kept thinking I was wasting time.  After all, I was the "Quickbooks Expert." I found out later that the company that sent me there did not make such an extravagant claim. Besides nobody ever said I was the f*cked up set of books of the century expert. Then Tuesday I went in and he wanted me to get this one thing done more than anything. I ended up calling the software manufacturere Intuit for tech support (which I’ve often done in other situations).  I asked Steve how he wanted the tech support billed. He acted irritated, and told me to call my company and tell them to pay for it since they were sending me a "Quickbooks expert."  Ooohh.  There went that dumb phrase again. Well, one of us told him quite calmly and seriously,  "It really isn’t reasonable to expect ANYONE to know how to do every single thing in ANY software.   It isn’t unusual to use tech support." He didn’t say much but said emphatically I was not to call tech support and he’d find it on the web. Well, I called my company and said that was it, I wanted out of there. Called back a while later and said I could just adjust to his crap. Yesterday before I went in I called to say I’d had a family emergency, didn’t say it was a family by choice emergency which it was, to deal with. The receptionist acted real annoyed. Okay, strike 3.  Called my company and told the story and said "Just because they f*cked up their books, (oh excuse me, I said), doesn’t mean I have to go in there and get all stressed out.  Which means I can’t stay there." Okay, so she and I talked and I went from not wanting to   go in at all to being willing to put in some hours – with an upper limit based on my intolerance for ab*se, hehe.  And she would be working on finding a replacement, who I would be willing to spend an hour "training" – passing on what I’d done and learned. So when I got there yesterday, she told me that Steve wanted this and such done and he wanted it done by the time he got back to the office. I told her with great inner satisfaction which I didn’t allow to show that there would be a new person coming in to replace me later on in the day. And in my mind added without saying, "So f*ck you and your f*cked up set of books and f*cked up attitude that if you guys put enough pressure on me I can mag*cally make what is so messed up instantly right." I was determined that they were not going to set me off like that yesterday, and I did reasonably well. My replacement showed up and I briefed her on what I had already done, what I knew was needed, and the whole f*cked up situation there. Poor thing.  If Steve thought I wasn’t enough of a "Quickbooks expert", wait till he tries her. Only now they’ve had someone walk out on them and been told it was personality conflicts (the polite version of what I told my compan – the temp agency). It was so tough going in there yesterday, but yet satisfying to not just run away, thereby maintaining decent relations with the temp agency. Also I have to say it felt awesomely wonderful to in effect say  that I didn’t deserve this kind of treatment etc, and I wasn’t going to put up with it any more. YES!! To walk out having made the choice relatively early myself.  Rather than sticking it out and continuing to attribute all problems to me, leading to more and more problems. Yesterday, I decided no no no, it isn’t just me having knee jerk reactions. I always tend to think that, but no.  This situation is nuts. And I have rarely been happier to walk away from a job. So why do I still feel so lousy today? Maybe they call it "stress." Todooeoeo

–      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

Response:

HEYYY!!  Who let you inside of our head anyhow????

I just put myself in your shoes (I hope we wear the same size or my feet are all squished by now:) and realized that you and I are once again so much alike that maybe what applies to me applies to you. I figure that half the time I don’t bother to use this wonderful insight I have so maybe you would have better use for it *grin* Rainbow Colors (Jill, brilliant and clueless all at the same time:) Oh and thanks muchly!! Todoeoeoe aka puffkitty

–      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

Response:

x-no-arvchive: yes There you go living my life again Well… close. The reason (I think) you still feel kind of like crap is because you didn’t get the satisfaction of thier whole world changing into what it *should* have been all along. And it’s really irritating that that’s never going to happen with those #$%^& people. But you did get the next best thing… OUT of that world. Congrats. I think you did really reallly well!   Take care, -Melissa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I figured out the trigger on that particular temp job. Took a few days, but I got it. Last Friday when I walked in, the guy Steve said, "Oh, so you’re the Quickbooks expert." Obviously I wasn’t aware at the time how threatening that felt.  Quickbooks being accounting software for small businesses. He spent little time with me, just kind of throwing stuff at me and saying what he wanted done.  Then left, being a salesman. As I dug into the stuff, I was led in circles and circles.  Start trying to figure out one thing that led to another to another to another.  Everything was a mess. Nothing was done right. And I kept thinking I was wasting time.  After all, I was the "Quickbooks Expert." I found out later that the company that sent me there did not make such an extravagant claim. Besides nobody ever said I was the f*cked up set of books of the century expert. Then Tuesday I went in and he wanted me to get this one thing done more than anything. I ended up calling the software manufacturere Intuit for tech support (which I’ve often done in other situations).  I asked Steve how he wanted the tech support billed. He acted irritated, and told me to call my company and tell them to pay for it since they were sending me a "Quickbooks expert."  Ooohh.  There went that dumb phrase again. Well, one of us told him quite calmly and seriously,  "It really isn’t reasonable to expect ANYONE to know how to do every single thing in ANY software.   It isn’t unusual to use tech support." He didn’t say much but said emphatically I was not to call tech support and he’d find it on the web. Well, I called my company and said that was it, I wanted out of there. Called back a while later and said I could just adjust to his crap. Yesterday before I went in I called to say I’d had a family emergency, didn’t say it was a family by choice emergency which it was, to deal with. The receptionist acted real annoyed. Okay, strike 3.  Called my company and told the story and said "Just because they f*cked up their books, (oh excuse me, I said), doesn’t mean I have to go in there and get all stressed out.  Which means I can’t stay there." Okay, so she and I talked and I went from not wanting to   go in at all to being willing to put in some hours – with an upper limit based on my intolerance for ab*se, hehe.  And she would be working on finding a replacement, who I would be willing to spend an hour "training" – passing on what I’d done and learned. So when I got there yesterday, she told me that Steve wanted this and such done and he wanted it done by the time he got back to the office. I told her with great inner satisfaction which I didn’t allow to show that there would be a new person coming in to replace me later on in the day. And in my mind added without saying, "So f*ck you and your f*cked up set of books and f*cked up attitude that if you guys put enough pressure on me I can mag*cally make what is so messed up instantly right." I was determined that they were not going to set me off like that yesterday, and I did reasonably well. My replacement showed up and I briefed her on what I had already done, what I knew was needed, and the whole f*cked up situation there. Poor thing.  If Steve thought I wasn’t enough of a "Quickbooks expert", wait till he tries her. Only now they’ve had someone walk out on them and been told it was personality conflicts (the polite version of what I told my compan – the temp agency). It was so tough going in there yesterday, but yet satisfying to not just run away, thereby maintaining decent relations with the temp agency. Also I have to say it felt awesomely wonderful to in effect say  that I didn’t deserve this kind of treatment etc, and I wasn’t going to put up with it any more. YES!! To walk out having made the choice relatively early myself.  Rather than sticking it out and continuing to attribute all problems to me, leading to more and more problems. Yesterday, I decided no no no, it isn’t just me having knee jerk reactions. I always tend to think that, but no.  This situation is nuts.  And I have rarely been happier to walk away from a job. So why do I still feel so lousy today? Maybe they call it "stress." Todooeoeo

Response:

Question:

I just want to see what everyone uses for their computer. Please post.

Response:

I just want to see what everyone uses for their computer. Please post.

1st choice – Peachtree for DOS ver 10! 2nd choice – QB If you see someone without a smile, give them one of yours!"

Response:

I just want to see what everyone uses for their computer. Please post. 1st choice – Peachtree for DOS ver 10! 2nd choice – QB If you see someone without a smile, give them one of yours!"

It depends what you need it for.  At work we use Peachtree for DOS ver 10 because we need the departmental groupings. Quickbooks has the reputation of not yet having solved the year 2000 problem.  Quicken is really good for sole proprietors or home bookkeeping.

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