Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   -servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it?   Well no.  Your answer had nothing to do with the question.  Given that both want to maximise return why is one method of doing so evil and the other good?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. -I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone?   Where did it come from?   The extracted surplus value of laborers usually.   And what exactly made it possible for the labourers work to have any value let alone value surplus to wages.   This question doesn’t make much sense.   Did you make the investment neccesary to make your work effective? If not they why complain about the one who did?   Because that person is stealing the fruits of your labor. Both the investment and the work, together are needed to produce. No, only labor is "needed" to produce. So it is possible to make steel without any investment? How about computer chips?  Aircraft?  Books?  Telecommunication services?   Yes, yes, yes and yes.  If you are willing to labour, and have the knowledge of how to make these things, you can do it.

  No it is not possible to make steel without any investment.  To make steel you need to make a foundry.  That is an investment.  To make a book you need to buy paper, that is an investment.  To make aircraft you need to spend time designing and testing this is also investment.  The fact that you think that because these things have large labour components means they are not investment just shows your ignorance.   What it’s not possible to do is make any of these things with "investment" and without labour. If you can produce any of these without investment, go ahead.   It has never been done before but maybe you’ll be the first.   I think it has, and can.

  No it hasn’t.  You only think that because you don’t know what investment is.    But this argument would also mean that we can’t produce most of these things without states either, since computer chips, aircraft and telecom have never been produced without state participation in the r&d.

  Not true computer chips were invented in non-government labs, aircraft were not created by government funding and the first government investment in telecoms was not for years after they had operated.   The worker did not produce the full value of the production.  So why should he get the full payment for it? This is assuming there must be some separate person or class above labor to fulfill the function you believe they provide.

  No, it merely assumes that the labourer did not do the planning, production of capital goods, production of raw materials etc. neccessary for his production.  The "Example of Argentina" is an example cited that disproves this thesis.

  No it proves that anyone can run a business profitably if they steal enough. "Investment" never produces, and can not produce, anything at all. Further, there would be no "investment" without labor.  There can easily be labor and production without "investment".   Much less production however and no production of certain things like working phones, insulin, research etc. You might believe it’s "less production", but i don’t think that’s necessarily the case.  And, there’s certainly no good reason why willing laborers could not produce working phones or anything else.

  How would they produce either the landlines or the mobile phone towers? If they work on either of these it’s investment and therefore labour did not produce the working phones, labour and investment did. But ultimately, even if it is "less production", you’re still producing useful goods.  Without labour you’re not.

  Yes, you are producing roots and berries with the occasional rabbit. You aren’t producing venison because that needs spears, and spears are an investment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As is an elementary truism: "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."   It may be "elementary" but that does make it not true.  To say that labour "deserves much the higher consideration" is meaningless. Not at all.  It’s a recognition of the reality of how things are produced, and what actually is the primary driving force of it. All you are saying I didn’t say it.

  Yes you did, just then!  Abe Lincoln said it. is that one form of labour (direct) is to be given higher consideration that another (indirect).  There is no good reason to do this.  Why should the input of someone who laboured, got money and then put that money into higher production be valued less than the person who just laboured?  What is the essential difference? The primary difference is that the labour is what is fundamental and neccessary for production.

  No the primary difference is that one form of labour is direct and the other indirect.  Lincoln is simply recognizing what is primary and what is secondary.  Namely, that the contribution of the person who "got money and put that money into higher production" (the "indirect labourer"?) is worthless unless someone is going to do the labour.

  So what?  The fact that insulin needs a truck driver to deliver it to a diabetic doesn’t make the insulin worthless.  The fact that labour is neccesary to make investment useful does not make investment useless unless there is no labour.  Nor does it make labour more valuable than investment.  There can be many other differences too, but that’s what I think he was getting at.  You can lose the one, and it might be a set back or an advantage or whatever, but if you don’t have labour you have nothing.  So, labour "deserves much the higher consideration".

  Why?  The total value produced is increased by both, so why is one given "much the higher consideration"?  And what does being given a higher consideration mean?  How can the consideration for your input be higher than the market price?   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Josh

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   -servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it?   Well no.  Your answer had nothing to do with the question.  Given that both want to maximise return why is one method of doing so evil and the other good?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. -I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone?   Where did it come from?   The extracted surplus value of laborers usually.   And what exactly made it possible for the labourers work to have any value let alone value surplus to wages.  

This question doesn’t make much sense.   Did you make the investment neccesary to make your work effective? If not they why complain about the one who did?   Because that person is stealing the fruits of your labor. Both the investment and the work, together are needed to produce. No, only labor is "needed" to produce. So it is possible to make steel without any investment? How about computer chips?  Aircraft?  Books?  Telecommunication services?  

Yes, yes, yes and yes.  If you are willing to labour, and have the knowledge of how to make these things, you can do it. What it’s not possible to do is make any of these things with "investment" and without labour. If you can produce any of these without investment, go ahead.   It has never been done before but maybe you’ll be the first.  

I think it has, and can.  But this argument would also mean that we can’t produce most of these things without states either, since computer chips, aircraft and telecom have never been produced without state participation in the r&d. The worker did not produce the full value of the production.  So why should he get the full payment for it?

This is assuming there must be some separate person or class above labor to fulfill the function you believe they provide.  The "Example of Argentina" is an example cited that disproves this thesis. "Investment" never produces, and can not produce, anything at all. Further, there would be no "investment" without labor.  There can easily be labor and production without "investment".   Much less production however and no production of certain things like working phones, insulin, research etc.

You might believe it’s "less production", but i don’t think that’s necessarily the case.  And, there’s certainly no good reason why willing laborers could not produce working phones or anything else. But ultimately, even if it is "less production", you’re still producing useful goods.  Without labour you’re not. As is an elementary truism: "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."   It may be "elementary" but that does make it not true.  To say that labour "deserves much the higher consideration" is meaningless.

Not at all.  It’s a recognition of the reality of how things are produced, and what actually is the primary driving force of it. All you are saying

I didn’t say it.  Abe Lincoln said it. is that one form of labour (direct) is to be given higher consideration that another (indirect).  There is no good reason to do this.  Why should the input of someone who laboured, got money and then put that money into higher production be valued less than the person who just laboured?  What is the essential difference?

The primary difference is that the labour is what is fundamental and neccessary for production.  Lincoln is simply recognizing what is primary and what is secondary.  Namely, that the contribution of the person who "got money and put that money into higher production" (the "indirect labourer"?) is worthless unless someone is going to do the labour.  There can be many other differences too, but that’s what I think he was getting at.  You can lose the one, and it might be a set back or an advantage or whatever, but if you don’t have labour you have nothing.  So, labour "deserves much the higher consideration". Josh

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   -servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it?   Well no.  Your answer had nothing to do with the question.  Given that both want to maximise return why is one method of doing so evil and the other good?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. -I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone?   Where did it come from?  

The extracted surplus value of laborers usually. Did you make the investment neccesary to make your work effective?  If not they why complain about the one who did?  

Because that person is stealing the fruits of your labor. Both the investment and the work, together are needed to produce.

No, only labor is "needed" to produce.   "Investment" never produces, and can not produce, anything at all. Further, there would be no "investment" without labor.  There can easily be labor and production without "investment". As is an elementary truism: "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Josh

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   -servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it?   Well no.  Your answer had nothing to do with the question.  Given that both want to maximise return why is one method of doing so evil and the other good?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. -I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone?   Where did it come from?   The extracted surplus value of laborers usually.

  And what exactly made it possible for the labourers work to have any value let alone value surplus to wages.   Did you make the investment neccesary to make your work effective? If not they why complain about the one who did?   Because that person is stealing the fruits of your labor. Both the investment and the work, together are needed to produce. No, only labor is "needed" to produce.

  So it is possible to make steel without any investment?  How about computer chips?  Aircraft?  Books?  Telecommunication services?  If you can produce any of these without investment, go ahead.  It has never been done before but maybe you’ll be the first.  The worker did not produce the full value of the production.  So why should he get the full payment for it? "Investment" never produces, and can not produce, anything at all. Further, there would be no "investment" without labor.  There can easily be labor and production without "investment".

  Much less production however and no production of certain things like working phones, insulin, research etc. As is an elementary truism: "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

  It may be "elementary" but that does make it not true.  To say that labour "deserves much the higher consideration" is meaningless.  All you are saying is that one form of labour (direct) is to be given higher consideration that another (indirect).  There is no good reason to do this.  Why should the input of someone who laboured, got money and then put that money into higher production be valued less than the person who just laboured?  What is the essential difference? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Josh

Response:

Snapshot of a Nation                 How Argentina’s new president deals with the                occupied factories will be hugely significant                                By Naomi Klein                      Monday April 28, 2003 The Guardian In 1812, bands of British weavers and knitters raided textile mills and smashed industrial machines with their hammers. According to the Luddites, the new mechanised looms had eliminated thousands of jobs and broken communities and deserved to be destroyed. The British government disagreed and called in a force of 14,000 soldiers to brutally repress the worker revolt and protect the machines. Fast-forward two centuries to another textile factory, this one in Buenos Aires. At the Brukman factory, which has been producing men’s suits for 50 years, it’s the riot police who smash the sewing machines and the 58 workers who risk their lives to protect them. Last Monday, the Brukman factory was the site of the worst repression Buenos Aires has seen in almost a year. Police had evicted the workers in the middle of the night and turned the entire block into a military zone guarded by machine guns and attack dogs. Unable to get into the factory and complete an outstanding order for 3,000 pairs of dress trousers, the workers gathered a huge crowd of supporters and announced it was time to go back to work. At 5pm, 50 middle-aged seamstresses in no-nonsense haircuts, sensible shoes and blue work smocks walked up to the black police fence. Someone pushed, the fence fell and the Brukman women, unarmed and arm in arm, slowly walked through. They had only taken a few steps when the police began shooting: tear gas, water cannons, rubber bullets, then lead. The police even charged the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, in their white headscarves embroidered with the names of their "disappeared" children. Dozens of demonstrators were injured and police fired tear gas into a hospital where some had taken refuge. This is a snapshot of Argentina in the week of its presidential elections. Each of the five major candidates is promising to put this crisis-ravaged country back to work. Yet Brukman’s workers are treated as if sewing a grey suit were a capital crime. Why this state Luddism, this rage at machines? Well, Brukman isn’t just any factory, it’s a fabrica ocupada , one of almost 200 factories across the country that have been taken over and run by their workers over the past year and a half. For many, the factories, employing more than 10,000 nationwide and producing everything from tractors to ice cream, are seen not just as an economic alternative, but as a political one as well. "They are afraid of us because we have shown that if we can manage a factory we can also manage a country," Celia Martinez, a Brukman worker, said on Monday night. "That’s why this government decided to repress us." At first glance, Brukman looks like every other garment factory in the world. As in Mexico’s hyper modern maquiladoras and Toronto’s crumbling coat factories, Brukman is filled with women hunched over sewing machines, their eyes straining and fingers flying over fabric and thread. What makes Brukman different are the sounds. There is the familiar roar of machines and the hiss of steam, but there is also Bolivian folk music, coming from a small tape deck in the back of the room, and softly spoken voices, as older workers lean over younger ones, showing them new stitches. "They wouldn’t let us do that before," Martinez says. "They wouldn’t let us get up from our workspaces or listen to music. But why not listen to music, to lift the spirits a bit?" Here in Buenos Aires, every week brings news of a new occupation: a four-star hotel now run by its cleaning staff, a supermarket taken by its clerks, a regional airline about to be turned into a cooperative by the pilots and attendants. In small Trotskyist journals around the world, Argentina’s occupied factories, where the workers have seized the means of production, are giddily hailed as the dawn of a socialist utopia. In large business magazines like the Economist, they are ominously described as a threat to the sacred principle of private property. The truth lies somewhere in between. I n Brukman, for instance, the means of production weren’t seized, they were simply picked up after they had been abandoned by their legal owners. The factory had been in decline for several years, debts to utility companies were piling up, and, over a period of five months, the seamstresses had seen their salaries slashed from 100 pesos a week to a mere two pesos – not enough for the bus fare. O n December 18, the workers decided it was time to demand a travel allowance. The owners, pleading poverty, told the workers to wait at the factory while they looked for the money. "We waited for them until evening. We waited until night," Martinez says. "No one came." After getting the keys from the doorman, Martinez and the other workers slept at the factory. They have been running it every since. They have paid the outstanding bills, attracted new clients and, without profits and management salaries to worry about, managed to pay themselves steady salaries. All these decisions have been made democratically, by vote in open assemblies. "I don’t know why the owners had such a hard time," Martinez says. "I don’t know much about accounting, but for me it’s easy: addition and subtraction." Brukman has come to represent a new kind of labour movement here, one that is not based on the power to stop working (the traditional union tactic), but on the dogged determination to keep working no matter what. It’s a demand that is not driven by dogmatism, but by realism: in a country where 58% of the population is living in poverty, workers know that they are a pay cheque away from having to beg and scavenge to survive. The spectre that is haunting Argentina’s occupied factories is not communism, but indigence. But isn’t it simple theft? After all, these workers didn’t buy the machines, the owners did – if they want to sell them or move them to another country, surely that’s their right. As the federal judge wrote in Brukman’s eviction order: "Life and physical integrity have no supremacy over economic interests." Perhaps unintentionally, he has summed up the naked logic of deregulated globalisation: capital must be free to seek out the lowest wages and most generous incentives, regardless of the toll that process takes on people and communities. The workers in Argentina’s occupied factories have a different vision. Their lawyers argue that the owners of these factories have already violated basic market principles by failing to pay their employees and their creditors, even while collecting huge subsidies from the state. Why can’t the state now insist that the indebted companies’ remaining assets continue to serve the public with steady jobs? Dozens of workers’ cooperatives have already been awarded legal expropriation. Brukman is still fighting. Come to think of it, the Luddites made a similar argument in 1812. The new textile mills put profits for a few before an entire way of life. Those textile workers tried to fight that destructive logic by smashing the machines. The Brukman workers have a much better plan: they want to protect the machines and smash the logic. * Naomi Klein ’s latest book is Fences and Windows (Flamingo) www.nologo.org Source URL: http://www.guardian.co.uk/argentina/story/0,11439,944921,00.html * * * 1) EconomicDemocracy.org is reminded of this cartoon: http://economicdemocracy.org/images/capital.gif 2) Or you can sit back and imagine you live in another world in another planet in another galaxy, and enjoy this shockwave animation: http://www.lrna.org/flash/otherworld.swf 3) Remember, "The Boss Needs You. You Don’t Need The Boss" http://economicdemocracy.org/images/f9.jpg (Thanks to our friends in Paris, http://burn.ucsd.edu/paris.htm) 4) All you law-abiding citizens will love reading this short parable, on How the Miners were Robbed (by John Wheatley, 1907): http://economicdemocracy.org/miners.html 5) Happy labor day from EconomicDemocracy.org! = = = = STILL FEELING LIKE THE MAINSTREAM U.S. CORPORATE MEDIA IS GIVING A FULL HONEST PICTURE OF WHAT’S GOING ON? = = = = Daily Online 2 hour radio show reporting: www.DemocracyNow.org = = = = Sorry we cannot read/reply to most usenet posts but welcome email For more information: http://EconomicDemocracy.org/wtc/ (peace) And http://EconomicDemocracy.org/ (general) ANTI-SPAM EMAIL NOTE: For email "info" and "map" don’t work. Email instead to m-a-i-l-m-a-i-l (without the dashes) at economicdemocracy.org

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   -servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it?

  Well no.  Your answer had nothing to do with the question.  Given that both want to maximise return why is one method of doing so evil and the other good?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. -I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone?

  Where did it come from?  Did you make the investment neccesary to make your work effective?  If not they why complain about the one who did?  Both the investment and the work, together are needed to produce. He does not complain that you get part of the money resulting from his investment so why complain he gets part of the money resulting from your work? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – mowhak "It must always be remembered – and remembered well – that revolution does not mean destruction only. It means destruction plus construction, with the greatest emphasis on the plus." Alexander Berkman, The Russian Tragedy (Berlin: Der Syndikalist, 1922), p. 16.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://1marketsquare.com/CapLP/Rights.shtmlSnapshot of a Nation                How Argentina’s new president deals with the               occupied factories will be hugely significant                               By Naomi Klein                     Monday April 28, 2003 The Guardian … Perhaps unintentionally, he has summed up the naked logic of deregulated globalisation: capital must be free to seek out the lowest wages and most generous incentives, regardless of the toll that process takes on people and communities. The workers in Argentina’s occupied factories have a different vision. Their lawyers argue that the owners of these factories have already violated basic market principles by failing to pay their employees and their creditors, even while collecting huge subsidies from the state. Why can’t the state now insist that the indebted companies’ remaining assets continue to serve the public with steady jobs? Dozens of workers’ cooperatives have already been awarded legal expropriation. Brukman is still fighting. Come to think of it, the Luddites made a similar argument in 1812. The new textile mills put profits for a few before an entire way of life. Those textile workers tried to fight that destructive logic by smashing the machines. The Brukman workers have a much better plan: they want to protect the machines and smash the logic.

I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?   Assets serve the public when they produce products and services. How will there be assets if there is no return for the assets? Who will build a factory if there is no profit? Who will work in a factory if they get no wages? Where is the logic in that?

Response:

I always find it interesting that some think it evil when owners want profit but not evil when workers want wages. Both want to maximize their return so why is one good and the other evil? Who the fuck wants to minimize return?  

-servant: "Now that we’re finally equal, let’s see how I can profit from your existence. Why not just turn tables? If I’m as comfortable in my position as you are, let just see us the world from different views, as we are all in the same boat now. May I take your position, please?" -master: "Uuuhm, oh, wait a minute…" got it? Assets serve the public when they produce products and services.

-I am working. I produce products. Where has my asset gone? mowhak "It must always be remembered – and remembered well – that revolution does not mean destruction only. It means destruction plus construction, with the greatest emphasis on the plus." Alexander Berkman, The Russian Tragedy (Berlin: Der Syndikalist, 1922), p. 16.

Response:

Question:

funny, paul, i actually posed that question to myself just last week.  in fact, that’s why i searched and found this group today.  i’ve just been diagnosed with daily migraines triggered by light.  i had thought they were due to my problem with TMJ for the last 20 years since i wake up with one every day.  they’re not even 10’s and i think of poking my eyes out just because it never seems to go away.  i spend a lot of time, indoors and out, behind dark sunglasses.  i never came up with an answer to the question though. stevie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, My name is Paul from England. I have been watching this group for at least 12 months, and find it really friendly with lots of interesting articles by you all. I am 56 male been divorced for19 years and look after my disabled daughter. I thought it about time I wrote in. Had the usual Migraines since I was 20. If you have had it, taken it, or suffered it, so have I. Luckily Imertex or Imigran as called here works, but I still dread the zig zags and the the biggest fear of using the maxium 2 injections before the 24 hours are up, and then getting a migraine. I do get a Migraine in my sleep and wake up with a 10, and like you, if only I could convince the doc’s what it is like. I have made a personal massive study on the subject and apart from keeping off aspartane, Vit C, there is no cure. I was a male nurse once, and don’t think of myself of knowing a lot about the workings of the body. One thing I have found out, that no one, ( I have asked Doctors, specialist, etc ) has ever come across a blind person getting a Migraine! So perhaps some professional out there can look into that fact, and if they can say why? maybe there is a link in a cure. To those whose life is really ruined and cannot stand the pain anymore, if ( this sounds crude I know ) knowing having your eyes removed would 100% cure migraine, would you? My self, when I have a 10, I would! I know if I had a gun in the room during a full blown attack, I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow my brains out. One day, maybe, the headlines in the paper will say, a cure for migraine. Oh to go out without the fear of one coming on. Hoping you all find the cure, Regards Paul

Response:

Had the usual Migraines since I was 20. If you have had it, taken it, or suffered it, so have I. Luckily Imertex or Imigran as called here works, but I still dread the zig zags and the the biggest fear of using the maxium 2 injections before the 24 hours are up, and then getting a migraine. I do get a Migraine in my sleep and wake up with a 10, and like you, if only I could convince the doc’s what it is like.

Tell the doc that when you wake up out of a deep sleep and get a ten, you don’t know if a robber came into your home and shot you in the head, or if it’s *another* ten+ migraine again.  Then you check for blood, thus confirming the latter to be true. My self, when I have a 10, I would! I know if I had a gun in the room during a full blown attack, I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow my brains out.

Although we would never keep a gun anyway, i can promise you that i will never buy one, even if i lost chris.  With a gun in the house, i would not be able to trick my mind to think of anything else but that final "relief." Keeping a full set of knives are bad enough.  Also i ask my husband not to keep the Elavil out of the safe….i know how to end my life using those. Deep peace to you, Paul…. Lavon

Response:

You probably don’t see too many eunuchs with the clap either. That’s probably not a good comparison though. I  would do almost anything to get rid of my migraines but I couldn’t give up my books. Tony

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, My name is Paul from England. I have been watching this group for at least 12 months, and find it really friendly with lots of interesting articles by you all. I am 56 male been divorced for19 years and look after my disabled daughter. I thought it about time I wrote in. Had the usual Migraines since I was 20. If you have had it, taken it, or suffered it, so have I. Luckily Imertex or Imigran as called here works, but I still dread the zig zags and the the biggest fear of using the maxium 2 injections before the 24 hours are up, and then getting a migraine. I do get a Migraine in my sleep and wake up with a 10, and like you, if only I could convince the doc’s what it is like. I have made a personal massive study on the subject and apart from keeping off aspartane, Vit C, there is no cure. I was a male nurse once, and don’t think of myself of knowing a lot about the workings of the body. One thing I have found out, that no one, ( I have asked Doctors, specialist, etc ) has ever come across a blind person getting a Migraine! So perhaps some professional out there can look into that fact, and if they can say why? maybe there is a link in a cure. To those whose life is really ruined and cannot stand the pain anymore, if ( this sounds crude I know ) knowing having your eyes removed would 100% cure migraine, would you? My self, when I have a 10, I would! I know if I had a gun in the room during a full blown attack, I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow my brains out. One day, maybe, the headlines in the paper will say, a cure for migraine. Oh to go out without the fear of one coming on. Hoping you all find the cure, Regards Paul

Response:

Wow Paul.  I sorta like seeing!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello everyone, My name is Paul from England. I have been watching this group for at least 12 months, and find it really friendly with lots of interesting articles by you all. I am 56 male been divorced for19 years and look after my disabled daughter. I thought it about time I wrote in. Had the usual Migraines since I was 20. If you have had it, taken it, or suffered it, so have I. Luckily Imertex or Imigran as called here works, but I still dread the zig zags and the the biggest fear of using the maxium 2 injections before the 24 hours are up, and then getting a migraine. I do get a Migraine in my sleep and wake up with a 10, and like you, if only I could convince the doc’s what it is like. I have made a personal massive study on the subject and apart from keeping off aspartane, Vit C, there is no cure. I was a male nurse once, and don’t think of myself of knowing a lot about the workings of the body. One thing I have found out, that no one, ( I have asked Doctors, specialist, etc ) has ever come across a blind person getting a Migraine! So perhaps some professional out there can look into that fact, and if they can say why? maybe there is a link in a cure. To those whose life is really ruined and cannot stand the pain anymore, if ( this sounds crude I know ) knowing having your eyes removed would 100% cure migraine, would you? My self, when I have a 10, I would! I know if I had a gun in the room during a full blown attack, I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow my brains out. One day, maybe, the headlines in the paper will say, a cure for migraine. Oh to go out without the fear of one coming on. Hoping you all find the cure, Regards Paul

Response:

Hello everyone, My name is Paul from England. I have been watching this group for at least 12 months, and find it really friendly with lots of interesting articles by you all. I am 56 male been divorced for19 years and look after my disabled daughter. I thought it about time I wrote in. Had the usual Migraines since I was 20. If you have had it, taken it, or suffered it, so have I. Luckily Imertex or Imigran as called here works, but I still dread the zig zags and the the biggest fear of using the maxium 2 injections before the 24 hours are up, and then getting a migraine. I do get a Migraine in my sleep and wake up with a 10, and like you, if only I could convince the doc’s what it is like. I have made a personal massive study on the subject and apart from keeping off aspartane, Vit C, there is no cure. I was a male nurse once, and don’t think of myself of knowing a lot about the workings of the body. One thing I have found out, that no one, ( I have asked Doctors, specialist, etc ) has ever come across a blind person getting a Migraine! So perhaps some professional out there can look into that fact, and if they can say why? maybe there is a link in a cure. To those whose life is really ruined and cannot stand the pain anymore, if ( this sounds crude I know ) knowing having your eyes removed would 100% cure migraine, would you? My self, when I have a 10, I would! I know if I had a gun in the room during a full blown attack, I wouldn’t trust myself not to blow my brains out. One day, maybe, the headlines in the paper will say, a cure for migraine. Oh to go out without the fear of one coming on. Hoping you all find the cure, Regards Paul

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One thing I have found out, that no one, ( I have asked Doctors, specialist, etc ) has ever come across a blind person getting a Migraine! Okay, anecdotal evidence here: My mother (blind from childhood) got occasional migraines. One aunt, also blind since her late teens, gets them more severely…

I think there is a link between blindness and lack of migraines — but it depends on the TYPE of blindness. If the blindness is caused by retinopathy, it does not affect migraine — but if it is caused by optic nerve damage, it may. Anectdotal evidence: a friend of mine, Bill Cody, had almost-daily migraines and clusters both (on one side of his head only) until he was in a severe auto accident — during which his optic nerve on the "bad side" was severed. He is now blind in that eye and has not had a migraine or cluster since. And yes, i too have thought seriously about blinding myself on my "bad side" in order to stop the pain. cat yronwode

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Hiya all, I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered that blind people don’t get Migraines?! If so I was hoping that by pointing this out that just maybe someone might think, why don’t blind people get Migraines, could it be the effect of colors that we see? I know the color red can course me to have one. Could it be a certain light that passes through our seeing eyes into the brain causes an attack? Where direct color and light are not seen by the blind, maybe there is a connection, I just don’t know. Although I havn’t wrote into this group before the last message I sent. I can honestly say that the group have come up with some great advice that I have taken, and which have really helped me. For example, I had never heard of aspertane before, almost every cordial and soda here have it in, and I had been drinking it. My migraines have eased a lot since cutting it out. I am always thinking of the unusual. How about that we are the lords chosen people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines Have fun Regards Paul

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is blind in one eye because of an accident that severed his optic nerve….docs have always said it does’t matter, since he had mild ha  since age three and the accident happened when he was 13.should we look into this more?

 Does he get migraines on his blind side or on his sighted side, or on both sides at various times? cat yronwode

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blind in one eye because of an accident that severed his optic nerve….docs have always said it does’t matter, since he had mild ha since age three and the accident happened when he was 13.should we look into this more?

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I am always thinking of the unusual. How about that we are the lords chosen people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines

That can’t be it Paul.  Even though I had migraines on a near daily basis for well over twenty years it, in no way, comes close to accounting for all the times I’ve been bad.

Response:

Sorry to shoot down your theory, Paul, but I know a blind person who has severe migraines. — Teri Robert your About Guide to Headaches http://headaches.about.com visit our forum at: http://headaches.about.com/mpboards.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hiya all, I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered that blind people don’t get Migraines?! If so I was hoping that by pointing this out that just maybe someone might think, why don’t blind people get Migraines, could it be the effect of colors that we see? I know the color red can course me to have one. Could it be a certain light that passes through our seeing eyes into the brain causes an attack? Where direct color and light are not seen by the blind, maybe there is a connection, I just don’t know. Although I havn’t wrote into this group before the last message I sent. I can honestly say that the group have come up with some great advice that I have taken, and which have really helped me. For example, I had never heard of aspertane before, almost every cordial and soda here have it in, and I had been drinking it. My migraines have eased a lot since cutting it out. I am always thinking of the unusual. How about that we are the lords chosen people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines Have fun Regards Paul

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Then perhaps it is not that blind people do not get them, but rather that blind people do not have the capacity to suffer from triggers for migraines from which sighted folks suffer.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s not true. Blind people DO get migraines. I have a blind friend who has them. Teri  Hiya all,  I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying  to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered  that blind people don’t get Migraines?!

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Actually, I’m not quite sure. I only know that she’s been blind since birth. Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s not true. Blind people DO get migraines. I have a blind friend who has them. I think the question that remains is "what is the cause of the blindness?" Although the original poster did not say it clearly, he was speaking, i think, about blindness caused by severing the optic nerve, not by retinopathy, for instance, or other cause of blindness. Does your blind friend with migraine have a severed optic nerve? If not, the blindness may not be relevant. If so, it would be. Medical theories linking migraine with optic nerve dysfunction and/or visual cortex disfunction have not been ruled out and are being investigated at present. Even if the optic nerve and visual cortex are not implicated in ALL forms of migraine, they certainly are involved at some level (if not on a strictly causal level) with the visual aura of classic migraine. cat (Scintillating Scotomas "R" Us) yronwode

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That’s not true. Blind people DO get migraines. I have a blind friend who has them.

I think the question that remains is "what is the cause of the blindness?" Although the original poster did not say it clearly, he was speaking, i think, about blindness caused by severing the optic nerve, not by retinopathy, for instance, or other cause of blindness. Does your blind friend with migraine have a severed optic nerve? If not, the blindness may not be relevant. If so, it would be.   Medical theories linking migraine with optic nerve dysfunction and/or visual cortex disfunction have not been ruled out and are being investigated at present. Even if the optic nerve and visual cortex are not implicated in ALL forms of migraine, they certainly are involved at some level (if not on a strictly causal level) with the visual aura of classic migraine. cat (Scintillating Scotomas "R" Us) yronwode

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That’s not true. Blind people DO get migraines. I have a blind friend who has them. Teri

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Hiya all,  I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying  to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered  that blind people don’t get Migraines?!

Response:

 Hiya all,  I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying  to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered  that blind people don’t get Migraines?!

Are you sure about that? I’d be really curious to see some research, if there is any. I am always thinking of the unusual. How about that we are the lords chosen people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I  was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines

Then I’ve died and gone to Hell. (Qu’elle suprise…) Dana

Response:

 Hiya all,  I suppose I was going over the top re having eyes out, But what I am trying  to say, have the people in research for a cure for Migraine ever concidered  that blind people don’t get Migraines?! If so I was hoping that by pointing  this out that just maybe someone might think, why don’t blind people get  Migraines, could it be the effect of colors that we see? I know the color  red can course me to have one. Could it be a certain light that passes  through our seeing eyes into the brain causes an attack? Where direct color  and light are not seen by the blind, maybe there is a connection, I just  don’t know.  Although I havn’t wrote into this group before the last message I sent. I  can honestly say that the group have come up with some great advice that I  have taken, and which have really helped me. For example, I had never heard  of aspertane before, almost every cordial and soda here have it in, and I  had been drinking it. My migraines have eased a lot since cutting it out.  I am always thinking of the unusual. How about that we are the lords chosen  people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I  was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines  Have fun  Regards Paul

Response:

Newsgroups: alt.support.headaches.migraine How about that we are the lords chosen people, and every time we sin he gives us a Migraine as a punishment. Well I was a bad boy twice last week and I got two migraines Have fun Regards Paul

Grrrrrr now  you sound that the minister I posted about a few weeks ago.  :(

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sounds like you have a great suport team!

Response:

I have paid close attention to myself and 2 other woman with migraines…and i REALLY REALLY feel barometric pressure plays a roll in many of our migraines.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you say weather triggered headaches, what does that mean.  I noticed moving from the northeast to central Florida  my migraines became more frequent.  Also no matter how long i  am visiting out west I never experience a headache.  In Florida my migraines are few and far between from Feb through April.  This month they started up again. Imitrex aborts the headache within 30 minutes so I do not suffer the pain as I once did.  I am concerned about the increase in frequency even though I am able to treat the thing.  Different  parts of the country experience different vegatation and weather patterns,  I have wondered if  mine  are trigered by the enviorment  or weather. Not sure who you were replying to. I get headaches with heat and humidity. I have low bp (85/56 tops) and get very faint as well as chest pains in the heat and humidity. My son gets headaches if his body overheats due to temperature, exhertion or emotions. He also must always wear a hat or he gets a headache. I also get migraines with weather changes (barometric pressure etc.) I used to always feel much better when the storm hit but now not always. My son’s headaches start when the rain begins. The majority of my triggers are odours and pollen, cut grass, moldy smells, fragrance etc. are problems. My kids are also odour sensitive and sound sensitive. Bright light is also a problem. http://search.canoe.ca/HealthReference/migraine_9.html http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/15da0a.htm kadee

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There is no doubt about it.  Many different people … many different triggers.  Some of us have many triggers; some have several ; some only one or two. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -.  Could it be that there are different triggers for migraine just as there are for asthma?

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I know that both of my children have asthma.  One has weather induced attacks and one has exercise induced attacks.  Could it be that there are different triggers for migraine just as there are for asthma?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you say weather triggered headaches, what does that mean.  I noticed moving from the northeast to central Florida  my migraines became more frequent.  Also no matter how long i  am visiting out west I never experience a headache.  In Florida my migraines are few and far between from Feb through April.  This month they started up again. Imitrex aborts the headache within 30 minutes so I do not suffer the pain as I once did.  I am concerned about the increase in frequency even though I am able to treat the thing.  Different  parts of the country experience different vegatation and weather patterns,  I have wondered if  mine  are trigered by the enviorment  or weather.

Response:

Hi All.. My migaines did not go away after menapause either. My triggers are also the same except that I don’t get the migraine that came with "that time of the month" because I don’t have "that time" anymore.  In that way I  get just one less migraine per month.  That’s just common sense and I don’t see that as much to write home about. I have ALL the triggers – sunlight, florescent lights, barometric pressure (& I live in the Tropics – lot’s of ups & downs – downs being the worst), foods, liqour, sinus, dehydration, fatigue…we all know the list goes on & on. On the other hand, my Mother’s migraines DID go away after menapause…go figure!! KJJ

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Barbara, I think your migraines may be triggered by environment AND weather conditions. In Florida we have lost of ups & downs in barometric pressure, as I just posted.  The high humidity we experience here is also a trigger for me. Maybe you too.  Just the plain ole heat of the day can cause  a migraine.  I try to stay indoors during the hottest part of the day. We are now getting into the hottest & highest humidity parts of the year.  That could be the cause of more frequent migraines, I’m sorry to say.  I have lived in this state for most of my life so I’ve had plenty of time to observe these patterns. Good luck, but it’s such a beautiful place to live I hope you find a way to deal with the conditions here. KJJ

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When you say weather triggered headaches, what does that mean.  I noticed moving from the northeast to central Florida  my migraines became more frequent.  Also no matter how long i  am visiting out west I never experience a headache.  In Florida my migraines are few and far between from Feb through April.  This month they started up again. Imitrex aborts the headache within 30 minutes so I do not suffer the pain as I once did.  I am concerned about the increase in frequency even though I am able to treat the thing.  Different  parts of the country experience different vegatation and weather patterns,  I have wondered if  mine  are trigered by the enviorment  or weather.  

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Question:

She’s going to spend a couple years pasting bits of paper together, AND she gets a business degree for it??? Aw, dammit! And I learned accounting???? Carl ‘Wesistance is futiwe! Pwepawe to be assimiwated! Huh-uh-uh’- Elmer of Borg Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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i am about to enter colage any tips on courses to take?

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Question:

Assuming you just added on to the lovely "iif" format that you exported (easiest way to make sure format is OK).  In QB, just go to File, Import and select the file that you modifed.  Make sure that when you saved your modifcations in Excel that you saved it as a text file with the extension iif — Lisa Peterson Streamline Consulting, Inc. Making Accounting Work For You Minneapolis, MN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I exported my qb data for my items into an Excell worksheet, added more items into the excell sheet, how can I import the modified worksheet back into my QB? Thank you ver much for taking the time to respond. Wally www.Wholesalefragrances.com

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I exported my qb data for my items into an Excell worksheet, added more items into the excell sheet, how can I import the modified worksheet back into my QB? Thank you ver much for taking the time to respond. Wally www.Wholesalefragrances.com

Response:

Question:

I recently found this forum through a web search.  I realize that I am way out of my league here, but thought perhaps you could help me.  We own a small family business.  We have no receivables, no payables, no liabilities to be tracked with the exception of payroll.  I am in desperate need of new bookkeeping (not accounting) software.  I have been using Quicken since DOS versions, in combination with QuickPay, and it worked well for me.  Now with the advent of QuickPayroll, and the mandatory online subscription service, I find myself in a bind, since I refuse to put my business computer online.  I thought perhaps an easy solution would be to use QuickBooks (my accountant shared the new tax tables with me).  Not so simple!  QB has WAY too many features, that get in the way of the very BASIC work I need to do.  All I really need is a simple checkwriting program with category sorting functions and payroll that integrates with the ledger (QB’s is a separate function, requiring payroll checks to be printed separately from other checks).  Can anyone suggest anything??  I am so frustrated with QB that I am ready to go back to figuring payroll manually and use the simplest checkwriter I can find …….  My accountant is no help on this subject, just doesn’t know enough about the market.  Can anyone give me any suggestions? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

You may wish to look into DacEasy.  It is a pretty basic program and pretty affordable.  It will do the basics but if you require any advanced features it will not be suitable.  Look for them at www.daceasy.com HTH Don DonSign Regards, Donald A Haney, MBA Emergency Care Specialists, PC place." – Plato

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently found this forum through a web search.  I realize that I am way out of my league here, but thought perhaps you could help me.  We own a small family business.  We have no receivables, no payables, no liabilities to be tracked with the exception of payroll.  I am in desperate need of new bookkeeping (not accounting) software.  I have been using Quicken since DOS versions, in combination with QuickPay, and it worked well for me.  Now with the advent of QuickPayroll, and the mandatory online subscription service, I find myself in a bind, since I refuse to put my business computer online.  I thought perhaps an easy solution would be to use QuickBooks (my accountant shared the new tax tables with me).  Not so simple!  QB has WAY too many features, that get in the way of the very BASIC work I need to do.  All I really need is a simple checkwriting program with category sorting functions and payroll that integrates with the ledger (QB’s is a separate function, requiring payroll checks to be printed separately from other checks).  Can anyone suggest anything??  I am so frustrated with QB that I am ready to go back to figuring payroll manually and use the simplest checkwriter I can find …….  My accountant is no help on this subject, just doesn’t know enough about the market.  Can anyone give me any suggestions? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

You might check out One Write (it might be called One Write Plus).  The version I saw was very simple and didn’t have a lot of the features that a quickbooks or peachtree has.  It may have been upgraded since then, however, and might now be feature-rich. I think you’ll have trouble finding packaged software without a lot of extraneous features.  The software makers have to add features to satisfy the broadest range of customers and to justify their prices.  For what you do, an Excel spreadsheet or a series of linked spreadsheets might be the ticket. Dick K.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently found this forum through a web search.  I realize that I am way out of my league here, but thought perhaps you could help me.  We own a small family business.  We have no receivables, no payables, no liabilities to be tracked with the exception of payroll.  I am in desperate need of new bookkeeping (not accounting) software.  I have been using Quicken since DOS versions, in combination with QuickPay, and it worked well for me.  Now with the advent of QuickPayroll, and the mandatory online subscription service, I find myself in a bind, since I refuse to put my business computer online.  I thought perhaps an easy solution would be to use QuickBooks (my accountant shared the new tax tables with me).  Not so simple!  QB has WAY too many features, that get in the way of the very BASIC work I need to do.  All I really need is a simple checkwriting program with category sorting functions and payroll that integrates with the ledger (QB’s is a separate function, requiring payroll checks to be printed separately from other checks).  Can anyone suggest anything??  I am so frustrated with QB that I am ready to go back to figuring payroll manually and use the simplest checkwriter I can find …….  My accountant is no help on this subject, just doesn’t know enough about the market.  Can anyone give me any suggestions? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

You know, I really liked Quicken for my work.  Even Quicken Basic did what I needed it to do, although I didn’t use any of the advanced features.  But I am so frustrated with Intuit (as so many others are!!) that I don’t really want to support them any longer.  Peachtree is definitely overkill, as is QB, which I am currently using and can’t live with.  I looked at One-Write (which is a Peachtree software), and couldn’t even find the check register on it, plus their payroll works about the same as QB, "integrated" but separate from regular checkwriting features.  I don’t think I want to do this on spreadsheet, since I really like writing checks on the computer. What I am using now is QB99, and have a copy of the current tax tables on disk.  Problem is that my payroll is not simple — I’m always holding money out of my employees’ checks for odd things that can’t be easily addressed in the QB payroll functions.  For example, my nephew got hold of the corporate VISA and charged his pager bill … now I’ve got to withhold that from his pay, but paying the VISA bill, it can’t be recorded as a liability for him.  Or we’ll buy rubber boots that the employees might buy from us — supplies for us (family members), but liability for the other men??  With the old QuickPay, I was able to modify the check after it was processed (before it was printed) to include these things, but can’t do that with QB. I doubt that outsourcing my payroll would help my situation.  Aside from my situation above, there is the fact that when the men want to be paid, I’m expected to drop everything and write the checks.  Ah, the joys of a family business!  So do I have any other software options, or do I go back to Quicken Basic (which I liked) and account for my payroll manually without the online tax tables? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently found this forum through a web search. I realize that I am way out of my league here, but thought perhaps you could help me. We own a small family business. We have no receivables, no payables, no liabilities to be tracked with the exception of payroll. I am in desperate need of new bookkeeping (not accounting) software. I have been using Quicken since DOS versions, in combination with QuickPay, and it worked well for me. Now with the advent of QuickPayroll, and the mandatory online subscription service, I find myself in a bind, since I refuse to put my business computer online. I thought perhaps an easy solution would be to use QuickBooks (my accountant shared the new tax tables with me). Not so simple! QB has WAY too many features, that get in the way of the very BASIC work I need to do. All I really need is a simple checkwriting program with category sorting functions and payroll that integrates with the ledger (QB’s is a separate function, requiring payroll checks to be printed separately from other checks). Can anyone suggest anything?? I am so frustrated with QB that I am ready to go back to figuring payroll manually and use the simplest checkwriter I can find ……. My accountant is no help on this subject, just doesn’t know enough about the market. Can anyone give me any suggestions?

Another option is Peachtree

Question:

Hello, I have a question. How are co-operative homes viewed, from the accounting/taxation perspective? Are they considered non-profit organizations? As such, do they pay corporate taxes? Thanks — Romuva: http://www.romuva.lt http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/3503 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2810

Response:

How are co-operative homes viewed, from the accounting/taxation perspective? Are they considered non-profit organizations? As such, do they pay corporate taxes?

Co-op accounting and taxation is similar to accounting for a corporation. The members are shareholders and they pay corporate tax.  There are also rules governing co-ops regarding reserves that must be held for future consideration and to protect members shares. Kim

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Question:

Can anyone tell me MBA is equal to BBA ? Can MBA replace BBA when apply some job which require BBA? Please advise me. Thank you. MBA=Master of Business Administration BBA=Bachelor of Business Administration

Response:

An MBA is a step above a BA. Degress are as follows: Bachelors (BA = Bachelor of Arts, BS = Bachelor of Science) Masters (MBA = Master of Business Administration, MPA = Master Public Administration) Doctorate You must have your Bachelors to get your Masters… -Barb

Response:

An MBA is a step above a BA.

This is an interesting topic, and one which recieves much debate at the business school which I attend. I am currently four days away from finishing my BBA and am coming back in the fall to complete my CA add-on courses. From what I can tell of the BBA vs. MBA debate, both degrees provide one with a solid theoretical business background. The MBA’s at my school take the same courses (in fourth year) as I do with the same prof’s but with slightly different curriculums. However, someone who graduates with a MBA is probably going to be a better job candidate than a BBA. The MBA will (generally) have a undergraduate degree and three years work experience before they begin their masters. Compare this to the average BBA who may have three work terms (if in a CO-OP program)and only four years of post-secondary education. This is the reason that starting salaries are higher for MBA’s. In an accounting sense, it seems generally wise to have a BBA before attempting professional qualification. However, many aggressive accountants (or those fed up with the profession) will pursue an MBA to expand their career horizions. Alex C.

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Question:

Using such meaningless indicators as guides to health, or more irresponsibly as triggers for "treatment" have been a major error. Their value in assessing "HIV and Aids" cases has been totally demolished by research. I am sorry to be reading the back and forth comments between people in this newsgroup that have the potential to cause so much harm.

Thing is, while people keep responding to this guy he will continue to post. Nothing is to be gained by contradicting him – he is unshakeable in his belief. It is like trying to argue with a flat earther or Jehovah’s Witness – you will find you do not share enough reference points for any meaningful discourse. I know how difficult it is to withstand the temptation to refute each erroneous and increasingly outrageous assertion – but that it exactly what I am suggesting we do. Silence=(in this case)Contempt. I think it may be far more effective than a constant flame war. I know he’s wrong, you know he’s wrong, he’s mad. There is no more to be said. — jonboy "Love isn’t a non-renewable resource. If Amy and Barbara or Mike and Steve love each other, it doesn’t mean that John and Mary can’t." Ed Fallon

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if you are competent to understand them, scientific papers. When you have acquired a smattering of understanding, come back and let us know what you think.

A real laugh, coming from you, John. Wally

Response:

And dwindling numbers of diisidents for two reasons: they either see the light or they die from AIDS because they refuse antivirals.

Yeah, but you can’t help admiring them for sticking to their guns, as incredibly needless and ignominious as such deaths may be. Which is about as much respect as these folks could ever hope for. Wally Boulton

Response:

Perhaps those of us who feel compelled to respond to these idiots are as much to blame for giving them the "15 minutes of fame" they crave for.

No doubt about it.  And I’m probably among the worst of these sinners. They deserve an equal response to what they have to say … silence. Wally

Response:

For John spouting some hysterical belief that AIDs does not exist and for Marnix who is trying to argue with someone clearly lost in [...] Another total ignoramus. Start your (very long, in your case) search for knowledge on the net, and then expand it to include books and if you are competent to understand them, scientific papers.

Now which scientific papers would you recommend John ? I’ve seen the books, newspaper articles and Websites. But as a scientist I find it hard to debate unsubstantiated arguments. But now you promise us scientific articles. Oh, and while you’re at it, please answer the questions I put to you before ? You remember, right ? Marnix Bosch

Response:

For John spouting some hysterical belief that AIDs does not exist and for Marnix who is trying to argue with someone clearly lost in [...]

Another total ignoramus. Start your (very long, in your case) search for knowledge on the net, and then expand it to include books and if you are competent to understand them, scientific papers. When you have acquired a smattering of understanding, come back and let us know what you think. Below is the latest list of "Aids"-realist resources easily available to anyone interested, which the author and expert John Lauritsen helpfully updates and posts to this group. Perhaps if you learn a bit about the subject you will sound less irrational.  John             AGAINST THE HIV-CAUSES-AIDS HYPOTHESIS:                BOOKS, ARTICLES, AND OTHER RESOURCES                            September 1996                     Compiled by John Lauritsen        There is great disparity between the political and the scientific strength of the HIV-Causes-AIDS hypothesis. Politically it prevails, through censorship revolving around the interests of the multi-billion dollar AIDS Industry. Scientifically, it was refuted decisively years ago.  A rapidly growing number of scientists are now convinced that the HIV-Causes- AIDS hypothesis is wrong, and that it was bizarre and foolish from the very beginning.       The obvious parallel is Lysenkoism.  For many years, no one in the Soviet Union publicly expressed disbelief in Lysenko’s crackpot theories that acquired characteristics can be inherited. No one dared mention the principles of modern genetics, for to do so would have meant risking one’s career and even one’s life.       For those who are open-minded, I have prepared a brief list of AIDS-dissident resources.  My objective was to include only the strongest and most readily available.       Neville Hodgkinson’s new book, AIDS: THE FAILURE OF CONTEMPORARY SCIENCE, is the best AIDS history to date.  It presents comprehensive and objective analyses of all sides in the various controversies — "dissidents" as well as defenders of the prevailing orthodoxies.  Beginning in 1985 Hodgkinson wrote on AIDS for the Sunday Times (London) as their medical correspondent, and then later as their science correspondent.       INFECTIOUS AIDS: HAVE WE BEEN MISLED? (1996) presents all of the major AIDS articles of Peter Duesberg — articles which were previously available only in scientific journals.  These articles are essential reading for an understanding of the AIDS Phenomenon.  Someday they will be required reading in History of Science courses.       Duesberg’s brilliant new book from Regnery, INVENTING THE AIDS VIRUS, provides a relatively non-technical introduction to AIDS-criticism, as does the REASON article.         My own 480-page book, THE AIDS WAR, stands alone in exposing the scientific fraud that was committed when AZT was approved for marketing by the FDA.  It explains the "Risk-AIDS hypothesis" (the leading alternative to the HIV-AIDS hypothesis) in great detail, followed by a program for recovery from "AIDS" based on the Risk-AIDS hypothesis.  Crooked and/or irrational "scientists", "AIDS activists", journalists and public health officials receive their due comeuppances.       The article by Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos et al., "Is a Western Blot Proof of HIV Infection?", provides a devastating critique of the commonly used "HIV-antibody" tests, the Elisa and the Western Blot.  Neither of these tests has ever been validated against the only meaningful standard, actual isolation of the retrovirus HIV.  In addition to being highly unreliable, these tests react to many things that have nothing whatever to do with HIV, such as malaria, leprosy, influenza, and many different drugs.  Nevertheless, these tests are the basis for an assumption of "HIV infection" and for treatment with highly toxic nucleoside analogue drugs (AZT, ddI, ddC, d4T, etc.) — drugs which reliably cause the death of the patient, even though he might be perfectly healthy prior to treatment.       Ian Young’s book, THE STONEWALL EXPERIMENT, is not primarily about "AIDS".  However, it provides a profound and beautifully written portrait of the particular subset of gay men who are becoming sick in ways that are diagnosed as "AIDS" — the psychological and toxicological health risks in their lives.       CONTINUUM Magazine has been publishing critical AIDS articles since 1992.  172 Foundling Court, Brunswick Centre, London WC1N 1QE, England.  Tel.: [+44] (01) 171 713-7071.       The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV-AIDS Hypothesis, founded by Prof. Charles A. Thomas, Jr., now has a membership of several hundred scientists and other professionals: 7514 Girard Ave., #1-331, La Jolla, CA 92037. Telephone: (619) 272-1621.       Several Internet web sites contain critical AIDS articles. The largest is the AIDS Information Bulletin Board System (AIB), whose vast archives can be accessed:       By gopher:     gopher://itsa.ucsf.edu:70/00/.i/.q/.d/       By ftp:        ftp ftp://itsa/ucsf/edu:70/00/.i/.q/.d/       By web:        http://itsa.ucsf.edu/~beng/aidsbbs.html       In addition there is an impressive new Rethinking AIDS web site:             http://www.xs4all.nl/~raido/       And the Sumeria site, "exploring alternative ideas in health,   science, and spirituality", has featured AIDS-dissident material for some time:             http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/                *     *     *     *     *     *     * Peter H. Duesberg (editor). AIDS; VIRUS OR DRUG INDUCED? (book). Articles by E. Papadopulos-Eleopulos et al., P.H. Duesberg, V.L.       Koliadin, M. Craddock, M.D. Zaretsky, D.T. Chiu, R.S.       Root-Bernstein, H.W. Haverkos,  D.P. Drotman, B.J. Ellison,       A.B. Downey, G.T. Stewart, K.B. Mullis, S. Harris, S. Lang,       N. Hodgkinson, P. Johnson, T.  Bethell, J. Lauritsen, and C.       Farber. Kluwer Academics Press, Dordrecht, The Netherlands (1996). For orders in North and South America:       Tel: 617 871 6600         Fax: 617 871 6528   For orders elsewhere:       Tel: +31 78 639 23 92         Fax: +31 78 654 64 74   Peter H. Duesberg. INFECTIOUS AIDS: HAVE WE BEEN MISLED? (book). A collection of thirteen articles originally published in       scientific journals. North Atlantic Books (1996) P.O. Box 12327 Berkeley, CA 94712 For orders: 1 800 337-2665 Peter H. Duesberg. INVENTING THE AIDS VIRUS (book). Regnery Publishing, Inc. (1996) P.O. Box 39 Federalsburg, MD 21632-0039 For orders: 1 800 955-5493 Neville Hodgkinson. AIDS: THE FAILURE OF CONTEMPORARY SCIENCE (book). Fourth Estate (1996). 6 Salem Road London W2 4BU England. [+44] (0171) 727-8995   fax: [+44] (0171) 792-3176 Can be ordered from Book Services by Post Ltd:       via fax:  [+44] 1624 670923       via Internet web site:  www.bookpost.co.uk (secure server)   John Lauritsen. THE AIDS WAR: PROPAGANDA, PROFITEERING AND GENOCIDE FROM THE       MEDICAL-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX (book). Asklepios (1993). Box 1902, Provincetown, MA 02657-0245.       or call (508) 487-8369. Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, Valendar F.  Turner. and John M.       Papadimitriou. "Is a Positive Western Blot Proof of HIV Infection?". BIO/TECHNOLOGY, June 1993, pp. 696-707. Charles A. Thomas Jr., Kary B. Mullis, and Phillip E. Johnson. "What Causes AIDS: It’s an Open Question". REASON, June 1994.  (The December 1994 issue of REASON has 10       pages devoted to correspondence and authors’ replies       concerning the June article.) Ian Young. THE STONEWALL EXPERIMENT: A GAY PSYCHOHISTORY (book). Cassell. London and New York 1995. For orders: 1 800 243-0138  (hours: 8:30-17:30 CST)

Response:

I am sorry to be reading the back and forth comments between people in this newsgroup that have the potential to cause so much harm. For John spouting some hysterical belief that AIDs does not exist and for Marnix who is trying to argue with someone clearly lost in his own Universe, the potential here is truly frightening.  If one person reading this, finds truth in his or her mind that the drugs that they are taking are the cause of their illness and stop and subsequently die because of it, then this discussion will have crossed dangerous ground to criminal ground.

First off, Ken, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point. I do not need some hysterical megalomaniac telling people that AIDs is caused by the drugs they are taking when so many of my friends are now dead because the drugs did not come in time.  I also have friends living with AIDS because of those drugs, that even a year ago had given up all hope.  Not only are they living, they are living well as are many people on the drug program.  Where does John get his blantly delusional information?  Don’t quote studies to me.  Talk to my friends and others who are alive today because of the newest AIDS drugs.  To say that those drugs are the cause of AIDS is murderous, should one person believe it.

I have fought this fight for six months, and have finally realized a most important point about it:  idiots like John have ONLY this newsgroup in which to spout such nonsense.  No media takes AIDS dissidents seriously, and they are not given air time or print for their ridiculous ideas.  (Other than, of course, their own publications and videotapes, read and watched only by them.)  Although I had heard of Duesberg and his radical ideas years ago, I thought they were quite soundly discredited.  I live in New York City, a "heartland," if you will, of AIDS.  Never once, in this city, had I heard of "dissidents" before I came to this newsgroup.  If that isn’t evidence that, in the real world, they simply don’t exist in a manner to make a difference, I don’t know what is. My lover of 16 years died nearly three years ago of AIDS-related PCP. Denial, not of AIDS itself, but of being ill, prevented him (and me) from seeking proper medical care soon enough, and he succumbed to what should have been a manageable opportunistic infection.  I myself went through a bout of PCP which nearly killed me.  This was followed by active TB, which was found and successfully treated early (thanks to the bronchoscopy done relevant to the PCP) and, last summer, a MAC attack which also nearly killed me.  Fortunately, protease inhibitors WERE around in time for me, and although not always feeling wonderful, I do feel good most and of time, and believe that I have time ahead of me now. It is denial that people like John court.  What he has to say — "act like nothing is wrong" — is exactly what they want to hear.  And yes, you’re right, it would indeed be murderous if his advice sways them. However, I have come to realize that most people have better sense than this.  Those who don’t, and who follow John’s advice, want to do so, and no amount of persuasion by others is going to stop them.  As much as it hurts because of my own very close personal relationship to it all, I have realized that I just can’t save the world from people like John. (Or scam artists like Ed Lieb and John Scudamore, or hysterical maniacs like Fred Shaw, or others who post in this newsgroup — read here for a while and you’ll get to know the names.) Enough is enough.  It is a free country and the internet is based on free speech.  This type of rhetoric is not free and should not be tolerated.  When words of one person cause the degradation in life of another innocent person, then the words are not free.  When ignorance and bigotry form to deprive people of not only their civil rights for the right to life itself, that is also not free.  By saying those hateful things tinged with danger, they silence those that might think otherwise but do not have the courage to speak out.

It is an unfortunate fact of life on the internet that, in an unmoderated news group such as misc.health.aids, people can say anything they want.  Although it is a free country, the internet is not an American property and can’t be controlled in this regard.  Believe me, I agree with what you have said.  But it just ain’t the nature of the beast.  And I agree that John and some of the others here are hatemongering homophobes.  And it never hurts to remind them, publicly within the newsgroup, of what they are. I had a friend many years ago who was diagnosed with ARC, before they dropped that classification.  Because of the negative backlash he endured because of his illness, from the medical establishment at the time, to his place of employment, to the fear generated in those who knew him, he took what he considered his only alternative.  He is gone and this world is a poorer place for it.  He took his own life rather than fight on with the hope that someday, someone might find a way to save his life, or at least prolong it.  He was a close and dear friend and he is missed terribly and I blame idiots like those saying the drugs are the problem for continuing the hysteria and bigotry that caused him to end his life rather than fight on.

This is an issue close to my heart.  In many ways, my lover’s denial was, indeed, a form of suicide.  He more than once said he would take a dive out of our eighth-floor apartment window into the courtyard below before he would live with the illness and hopelessness of so many others we have all seen.  His belief in his doom was so strong that I honestly believe that his death came about largely because he gave up when he might have fought and lived on long enough for the drug cocktails. The ray of sunshine is simply that, if people like John can’t be dealt with on a direct, face-to-face level (notice that John apparently is afraid of exactly such a thing — it is one of the reasons he works so hard at being anonymous), it is some comfort to know that the most harm they can do is to enfold those who, in all likelihood, would ultimately come to some similar way of thinking on their own.  Sad, but true. John is pathetic.  He is given to using television documentaries and sensationalistic tabloids as a reference source to "prove" his "points."  His is a flat-earth, geocentric view of things.  NOT ONCE has he ever posted the slightest bit of real data or science.  Only his own beliefs about things.  And every time he has been cornered with real-world evidence — the science and the data — he resorts to calling it lies.  Consequently, he cannot be argued with on a reasonable level, because he turns logic on its head.  So I have come to think of and deal with John as a source of great amusement.  His ideas are laughable. If you read in this group long enough, you will see that even the dissidents are at odds with one another.  John doesn’t believe in anything, yet wholeheartedly backs up those dissidents who agree with the accepted idea that HIV exists and is an infectious organism, or who advocate the medicinal use of marijuana.  That, actually, is even more pathetic and laughable to observe. Perhaps more dangerous are people like Ed Lieb, who sells people a $250 rebounder, telling them that its use has cured cancer, AIDS and other "incurable" diseases (a paradoxical idea, if ever there was one).  And those he is after are the ones who are most frightened and desparate because of their situation in regard to AIDS.  On his web site, he tells us at the outset that the most amazing discovery he has made recently is that AIDS is a hoax.  Then, at the end of his multi-page advertisement for rebounders, he informs us that some proceeds from the sale of rebounders are used to help fight AIDS.  Unfortunately, he means this in a very lexiconical sense — he is not fighting to help those with AIDS, he is not fighting to help find a cure for AIDS.  He is fighting, literally, with the CONCEPT of AIDS.  I’m willing to bet that an accounting of the "proceeds" show them ALL going into Ed Lieb’s pocket, since that is where his fight against AIDS is happening. But enough.  Stay tuned.  You can bet John and Ed will have something to say about all this.  And you’ll be sure to get a chuckle out of it. Wally Boulton

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [ Me: ] Nothing is understood about the relationship between cd4 counts and health. Those who claim otherwise are lying. This response confirms my comment above. Nothing is understood about the relationship between cd4 cells and immune function. All claims to the contrary are lies. Using such meaningless indicators as guides to health, or more irresponsibly as triggers for "treatment" have been a major error. Their value in assessing "HIV and Aids" cases has been totally demolished by research.

I am sorry to be reading the back and forth comments between people in this newsgroup that have the potential to cause so much harm. For John spouting some hysterical belief that AIDs does not exist and for Marnix who is trying to argue with someone clearly lost in his own Universe, the potential here is truly frightening.  If one person reading this, finds truth in his or her mind that the drugs that they are taking are the cause of their illness and stop and subsequently die because of it, then this discussion will have crossed dangerous ground to criminal ground. I do not need some hysterical meglomaniac telling people that AIDs is caused by the drugs they are taking when so many of my friends are now dead because the drugs did not come in time.  I also have friends living with AIDS because of those drugs, that even a year ago had given up all hope.  Not only are they living, they are living well as are many people on the drug program.  Where does John get his blantly delusional information?  Don’t quote studies to me.  Talk to my friends and others who are alive today because of the newest AIDS drugs.  To say that those drugs are the cause of AIDS is murderous, should one person believe it. For this discussion to continue with the potential for harm clearly present is wrong.  All who read this should take steps to silence this type of discussion.  There has been so much in the negative, gay bashing in the 60’s and 70’s, people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell calling it the Gay Plague, recent events like the Southern Baptists calling for a boycott of Disney because of a benefits package for non-married couples which to them equates to gay friendly which is against God’s law. Enough is enough.  It is a free country and the internet is based on free speech.  This type of rhetoric is not free and should not be tolerated.  When words of one person cause the degradation in life of another innocent person, then the words are not free.  When ignorance and bigotry form to deprive people of not only their civil rights for the right to life itself, that is also not free.  By saying those hateful things tinged with danger, they silence those that might think otherwise but do not have the courage to speak out. I had a friend many years ago who was diagnosed with ARC, before they dropped that classification.  Because of the negative backlash he endured because of his illness, from the medical establishment at the time, to his place of employment, to the fear generated in those who knew him, he took what he considered his only alternative.  He is gone and this world is a poorer place for it.  He took his own life rather than fight on with the hope that someday, someone might find a way to save his life, or at least prolong it.  He was a close and dear friend and he is missed terribly and I blame idiots like those saying the drugs are the problem for continuing the hysteria and bigotry that caused him to end his life rather than fight on. Ken

Response:

Anything to make a bit of noise and *seem* to be engaged with us.

There is NOTHING engaging about you. In reality they are shitting a brick. I am still waiting for some explanation of how Marnix explains the unbroken string of successes dissidents have had in predicting the course of "Aids", the failure of "treatments", the fact that the drugs cause the illnesses they are touted as curing, the hermetic confinenent of "Aids" to voluntary victims with no epidemic in society generally, the fact that the whole nonsense disappears when people stop co-operating with it. And so on. They simply have no reply.

Which is appropriate.  Who in their right mind would reply to your nonsense? Wally

Response:

[snip] I have given them references time and again.

Yah – to pop science websites. Boy, am *I* impressed! I saw a survey in The Economist recently that indicated that a degree in the biological sciences actually *reduces* the recipients earning potential!

That kind of squashes your claim that we’re in this for the money, doesn’t it, sweetiepie? [snip] —

Response:

Don’t hold yours, Charlie. Looks like the CD4 count becomes meaningless once the drugs are started. Isn’t this obvious yet?

I have given them references time and again. I think we all have. Their new technique seems to be to constantly ask for detail, refuse to read it, and then ask again. Marnix does the same thing. Just shows how desperate they are. Anything to make a bit of noise and *seem* to be engaged with us. In reality they are shitting a brick. I am still waiting for some explanation of how Marnix explains the unbroken string of successes dissidents have had in predicting the course of "Aids", the failure of "treatments", the fact that the drugs cause the illnesses they are touted as curing, the hermetic confinenent of "Aids" to voluntary victims with no epidemic in society generally, the fact that the whole nonsense disappears when people stop co-operating with it. And so on. They simply have no reply. I saw a survey in The Economist recently that indicated that a degree in the biological sciences actually *reduces* the recipients earning potential! This is where they have brought their "scientific" discipline; flushed down the drain. Talk about letting the market decide; I wouldn’t employ these dunces to cut grass!    John — "They seem to have learned like the mad hatter to believe six impossible things before breakfast and so one more makes no difference. One gets a remarkable sense of being disassociated from the real world when entering the realm of Aids research."          Dr Mark Craddock, mathematician, on QC-PCR use by Ho & Shaw.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not true. Even though CD4 counts fluctuate AIDS diagnoses are (in part) based on SUSTAINED low CD4 counts. Rehashed in this ng over and over again. Nothing is understood about the relationship between cd4 counts and health. Those who claim otherwise are lying. Please see Lang, Perkins, Anderson, et al.,  "Patterns of T Lymphocyte Changes with Human Immunodeficiency Virus Infection: from seroconversion to the Development of AIDS", Journal of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndromes 2:63-69, 1989 which observed an average 160 cells/uL/year decline in CD4+ T-cells during the 18-months prior to an AIDS diagnosis. Using such meaningless indicators as guides to health, or more irresponsibly as triggers for "treatment" have been a major error. Their value in assessing "HIV and Aids" cases has been totally demolished by research.  Any references for your latest spewage? Don’t hold your breath, Dave.

Don’t hold yours, Charlie. Looks like the CD4 count becomes meaningless once the drugs are started. Isn’t this obvious yet? A no-brainer, really. fred

Response:

Let me be quite clear. [ discredited dogma flushed ]

Oops, something there that made you uncomfortable ? Marnix Bosch

Response:

Let me be quite clear. [ discredited dogma flushed ]

You’re only fooling yourself, Marnix.   Isn’t it worrying how many new "side-effects" (actually they are the only effects) of the new combinations of toxic medical assaults on so-called "HIV positive" people are turning up? Who would have guessed they cause diabetes in addition to all the other damage they do? (Apart from "Aids" dissidents, of course, who have been absolutely on the button about these murderous "treatments" right from the outset.) Don’t you wish you could be on the winning side for once, Marnix? Just for once. Wouldn’t that feel good?  John —   Dr. Luc Montagnier, "discoverer of HIV", Institute Pasteur Paris: "There are too many shortcomings in the theory that HIV causes all signs of AIDS"

Response:

Let me be quite clear. In the absence of drug intervention declining CD4 cells is a sign of disease progression and a deteriorating immune system. In the presence of drug treatment (antivirals) increases in CD4 cells occur, but the meaning of that observation (whether these are uncommitted cells or memory cells) is currently a point of debate. Marnix Bosch (sorry John, random quotes from a tv documentary will not convince anyone) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [ Me: ] Nothing is understood about the relationship between cd4 counts and health. Those who claim otherwise are lying. On the other hand, there is vast information about the relationship between CD4 counts and a healthy immune response. No CD4 cells, no immune response, few CD4 cells, little immune response, lots of CD4 cells, potentially healthy immune response. This response confirms my comment above. Nothing is understood about the relationship between cd4 cells and immune function. All claims to the contrary are lies. Using such meaningless indicators as guides to health, or more irresponsibly as triggers for "treatment" have been a major error. Their value in assessing "HIV and Aids" cases has been totally demolished by research. Quote research please. Start with the Concorde trial results. Read misc.health.aids for a few weeks. (You know the evidence, Marnix, you just hope to mislead the unwary.) But just to underline the extent of your mendacity, here are some quotes from the Panorana edition exposing drug company dishonesty in promoting the deadly AZT as "medication". Which you are well aware of.   These are quotes from BBC Panorama documentary programme "A Ray of Hope", BBC1, Monday 18th March, 1996.   Panorama interviewed the members of the British Medical Research   Council involved in the Concorde trial and learnt of the problems   they experienced with the company. At the start of the trial, the   MRC team revealed, the company had wanted to use CD4 cell counts   as an indicator of the drug’s success. The team refused to allow   this, suspecting that CD4 cell counts could be raised by the action   of the drug without offering any health benefits. "We were worried   that the CD4 count might be a cosmetic measure," Concorde’s UK   Chairman Prof. David Warrell explained. This turned out to be   correct. In the latest analyses of the Concorde data, raised CD4   cell counts are found in the group, with higher mortality,   starting AZT early.     "It did seem to be a surrogate marker, a potentially   misleading index," Prof. Warrell said.     "But this was one of the markers which the company had relied   on in its own trials of AZT," the interviewer reminded him.     "Exactly! So we felt vindicated in our reserve, or scepticism,   about what one could infer from the CD4 count alone," Prof.   Warrell commented.   ==/== CD4 counts are quite meaningless in relation to "Aids", which in the UK is almost exclusively medical poisoning with wildly inapropriate and deadly substances, dishonestly prescribed as though they were medicine. As potential victims refuse to co-operate with this, "Aids deaths" are rapidly dwindling away to nothing. The "Aids" superstition is finished here. And good riddance to it! You have said it before, but not backed it up with data. Basically like everything you’ve said on this newsgroup. I have supported everything I have said, as readers are well aware, so this squalid little trick is looking more and more pathetic every time you sorry losers try it on.  John —   "There is this terrible fear throughout the field that it will be discovered we have been walking down the wrong route all these years and advising people to do things which will turn out to be the wrong things. I think about quitting all the time."            UK "Aids" industry worker’s letter to Neville Hodgkinson,               author of _AIDS: The Failure of Contemporary Science_

Response:

[ Me: ] Nothing is understood about the relationship between cd4 counts and health. Those who claim otherwise are lying. On the other hand, there is vast information about the relationship between CD4 counts and a healthy immune response. No CD4 cells, no immune response, few CD4 cells, little immune response, lots of CD4 cells, potentially healthy immune response.

This response confirms my comment above. Nothing is understood about the relationship between cd4 cells and immune function. All claims to the contrary are lies. Using such meaningless indicators as guides to health, or more irresponsibly as triggers for "treatment" have been a major error. Their value in assessing "HIV and Aids" cases has been totally demolished by research. Quote research please.

Start with the Concorde trial results. Read misc.health.aids for a few weeks. (You know the evidence, Marnix, you just hope to mislead the unwary.) But just to underline the extent of your mendacity, here are some quotes from the Panorana edition exposing drug company dishonesty in promoting the deadly AZT as "medication". Which you are well aware of.   These are quotes from BBC Panorama documentary programme "A Ray of Hope", BBC1, Monday 18th March, 1996.   Panorama interviewed the members of the British Medical Research   Council involved in the Concorde trial and learnt of the problems   they experienced with the company. At the start of the trial, the   MRC team revealed, the company had wanted to use CD4 cell counts   as an indicator of the drug’s success. The team refused to allow   this, suspecting that CD4 cell counts could be raised by the action   of the drug without offering any health benefits. "We were worried   that the CD4 count might be a cosmetic measure," Concorde’s UK   Chairman Prof. David Warrell explained. This turned out to be   correct. In the latest analyses of the Concorde data, raised CD4   cell counts are found in the group, with higher mortality,   starting AZT early.     "It did seem to be a surrogate marker, a potentially   misleading index," Prof. Warrell said.     "But this was one of the markers which the company had relied   on in its own trials of AZT," the interviewer reminded him.     "Exactly! So we felt vindicated in our reserve, or scepticism,   about what one could infer from the CD4 count alone," Prof.   Warrell commented.   ==/== CD4 counts are quite meaningless in relation to "Aids", which in the UK is almost exclusively medical poisoning with wildly inapropriate and deadly substances, dishonestly prescribed as though they were medicine. As potential victims refuse to co-operate with this, "Aids deaths" are rapidly dwindling away to nothing. The "Aids" superstition is finished here. And good riddance to it! You have said it before, but not backed it up with data. Basically like everything you’ve said on this newsgroup.

I have supported everything I have said, as readers are well aware, so this squalid little trick is looking more and more pathetic every time you sorry losers try it on.  John —   "There is this terrible fear throughout the field that it will be discovered we have been walking down the wrong route all these years and advising people to do things which will turn out to be the wrong things. I think about quitting all the time."            UK "Aids" industry worker’s letter to Neville Hodgkinson,               author of _AIDS: The Failure of Contemporary Science_

Response:

On 13 June Dave Thomson wrote ( to John-Dog re; cd4 counts and health) any references for your latest spewage?

From the NIAID news 29 april 1997; "Our data also suggest that drugs to prevent opportunistic infections may remain important even for patients with CD4+ counts that are rapidly increasing in response to therapy…" On 4 May the quiet and reserved Fred Shaw had this to say; "…….they are FINALLY admitting that the increase in CD4’s using the drugs has no benefit. What a concept! No clinical improvement. More T-cells do NOT equal better immunity. People still broke out with infections. Doctors had to keep their patients on the prophylaxis while lying about clinical "improvements" because the lab test said so!" excerpted from the thread Cocktail Happy Hour……on the Titanic! The NIAID Ship of Fools. Dave Blade

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not true. Even though CD4 counts fluctuate AIDS diagnoses are (in part) based on SUSTAINED low CD4 counts. Rehashed in this ng over and over again. Nothing is understood about the relationship between cd4 counts and health. Those who claim otherwise are lying. Please see Lang, Perkins, Anderson, et al.,  "Patterns of T Lymphocyte Changes with Human Immunodeficiency Virus Infection: from seroconversion to the Development of AIDS", Journal of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndromes 2:63-69, 1989 which observed an average 160 cells/uL/year decline in CD4+ T-cells during the 18-months prior to an AIDS diagnosis. Using such meaningless indicators as guides to health, or more irresponsibly as triggers for "treatment" have been a major error. Their value in assessing "HIV and Aids" cases has been totally demolished by research.  Any references for your latest spewage?

Don’t hold your breath, Dave. HIV induces progressive dysfunction followed by numerical depletion of CD4+ lymphocytes.  The following workers showed that antiretroviral treatment of patients with CD4+ counts below 300microliter reduced neither viral replication nor the formation of autoantibodies or gp120-containing immune-complexes.   Thank God for protease inhibition while we find a way to block gp120 and viral entry.  It was also shown that Patients with gp120-containing immune complexes on CD4+ blood lymphocytes demonstrated strongly decreased CD4+ (25+/-35/microliters, P<0.0001) and CD8+ (213+/-212/microliters, P<0.006) lymphocyte counts as well as strongly impaired T lymphocyte responses in vitro upon stimulation with PHA (RR 0.2+/-0.1, P<0.02), PWM (RR 0.2+/_0.2, P=0.05), anti-CD3 MoAb(RR 0.1+/-0.1, P<0.04), and allogeneic stimulator cells (RR 0.2+/-0.1, P<0.02).   Charles P. McCarthy, Clinical Specialist Healthcare Consulting and   Medical Research Carmichael, CA USA "Life is a membrane that reproduces."                    Pandoc Viral load in the serum of HIV-infected hemophilia patients is associated with autoantibodies and gp120-containing immune complexes on CD4+ lymphocytes. Volker D; Susal C; Weimer R; Zipperle S; Kropelin M; Zimmermann R; Huth-Kuhne A; Opelz G Department of Transplantation-Immunology, Institute of Immunology, University of Heidelberg, Heidelberg, Germany. Fax: 06221-56-4200. Int Conf AIDS, 1996 Jul 7-12, 11:2, 267 (abstract no. Th.A.4081) Objective: We reported previously that the sequential occurrence of lgM, lgG and gp120-immunoglobulin-complement complexes on CD4+ lymphocytes is associated with increasing numerical and functional defects of CD4+ lymphocytes in the blood. In this study we investigated whether the induction of antilymphocyte autoantibodies and immune-complexes is associated with the replication of HIV, that is, the viral load in the serum of the patients. Methods: Viral HIV-1 RNA was measured in the sera of 46 HIV+ hemophilia patients using the HIV-1 NASBA-kit and correlated with the lgM/lgG/gp 120 load of circulating CD4+ lymphocytes, CD4 and CD8+ cell counts, serum neopterin levels and in-vitro T-cell responses to mitogens. Results: The number of HIV-1 RNA copies in 100 microliter patient serum was significantly associated with the serum neopterin level (Spearman rank correlation: r=0.38; p=0.009), an impaired ConA (r=-0.14; p=0.01) and PHA stimulation (r=-0.12; p=0.07), and gp120 on CD4+ lymphocytes (p=0.05). Moreover, the immune-complex patterns on CD4+ lymphocytes were significantly associated with CD4+ cell counts and the numbers of viral copies in the serum (Table). Whereas the CD4+ counts were significantly decreased in patients with autoantibodies and immune-complexes, the viral load was higher in patients with autoantibodies or gp 120-containingimmune-complexes on CD4+ lymphocytes. (table: see text) Conclusions: These data suggest that viral replication is associated with the induction of autoantibodies and gp120-containing immune-complexes. Antiretroviral treatment of patients with CD4+ counts below 300microliter reduced neither viral replication nor the formation of autoantibodies orgp120-containing immune-complexes. Association of T cell dysfunction with the presence of IgG autoantibodies on CD4+ lymphocytes in haemophilia patients; results of a 10-year study. Daniel V; S

Question:

I am looking  to manufacture for myself a suction press for veneer work utilising the intake of a compressor and a heavy duty plastic bag. Are there any tips I should be aware of before I start. eg best couplings, best plastic, amount of suction required, publications etc?? Any help appreciated , thanks,

While I haven’t tried this method it doesn’t sound like a good idea to me.  Compressors are not designed to draw a vacuum and 1) it may not be good for the compressor and 2) it probably won’t give a good vacuum.  I have used a venturi and it can draw (for our purposes) as good a vacuum as you can get: 25" Hg (typically 28", where atmospheric pressure is 29-30").  These are not that expensive and utilize the output of an air compressor.  I know Lee Valley tools used to sell one (maybe they still do) so suppliers like Garrett Wade or Woodworker’s Supply probably do as well. — Tom more is better too much is just enough NO MONEY SPENT ON TOOLS IS WASTED

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You might want to wander over to the R/C Airplane NG. Rec.rc.airplanes or something like that. They do vacuum bagging to apply thin wood or fiberglass over a foam core and seem to have great success with it. I think they are nuts for spending all that money on airplanes that fall out of the sky, when they could be buying the latest tool for woodworking. But no accounting for some tastes. Dr. Spiff "All of man’s achievments on this earth can be ascribed to one of two behaviors. Making small bits out of large ones, or moving dirt from one place to another." Rick Dulas, Ph.D.,MSIE,MA,BS,PFC(ret)

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Once the vacuum is achieved, does the compressor continue to run? No.  Assuming you’ve got a leaktight system you turn off the valve (which you installed for this purpose) between the venturi and the veneering bag.  At this point you can turn off the airflow to the venturi.  And it doesn’t take very long to draw the vacuum, just a minute or two if you haven’t left too much excess air in the bag.

I would like to see a leak tight system some day and I worked for 33 years in an industrial research laboratory where we had hundreds of all glass vacuum systems. I suspect that the leak tight system has yet to be built. Dunno about that. All that moisture in the wood and the glue is a helluva lot of outgassing. But then again you see vacuum packed meats and stuff that seem to hold ok. Guess vacuum veneering doesnt need a lot of vacuum. Im ruined by working vacuum at the job, where we get down to 10 to the minus 9 torr range. But I still wouldnt think youd be able to just shut down a pump on all that moisture and hold enough vacuum to press it good. Keep in mind that the purpose of the vacuum system is merely to apply pressure evenly over the entire piece.   Sort of the ultimate clamp. Even if you only got the pressure down to 1/2 atmosphere, you’re still applying 16 lb/in^2 over the whole piece.   More than enough for most applications.

You have the right idea but the math is a bit flawed. Atmospheric pressure is about 15 pounds per square inch give or take a couple of high and low pressure areas. Sixteen pounds per square inch would be a bit tough on this planet unless you dug a bit of a hole. At one-half an atmosphere you are a tad closer to 7.5 pounds per square inch. A long ways from 16 but when you consider the pounds per square foot (~1000) it sounds good. It is difficult to maintain a vacuum on volatile liquids even if you keep the pump on. Once you turn it off the pressure will equilibrate rather quickly with the constituents. The purpose of the vacuum pressing is a convenient method to remove the damn bubbles and to get tight even contact. If it is not too big go down to your print framer and see if you can get it in their vacuum press. It might also give you an idea on how to build one.

Response:

Once the vacuum is achieved, does the compressor continue to run? No.  Assuming you’ve got a leaktight system you turn off the valve (which you installed for this purpose) between the venturi and the veneering bag.  At this point you can turn off the airflow to the venturi.  And it doesn’t take very long to draw the vacuum, just a minute or two if you haven’t left too much excess air in the bag. — Tom

Dunno about that. All that moisture in the wood and the glue is a helluva lot of outgassing. But then again you see vacuum packed meats and stuff that seem to hold ok. Guess vacuum veneering doesnt need a lot of vacuum. Im ruined by working vacuum at the job, where we get down to 10 to the minus 9 torr range. But I still wouldnt think youd be able to just shut down a pump on all that moisture and hold enough vacuum to press it good. stev — stev_ix_netcom_com is a fake. Sorry, Im tired of all the crap I get in the mail.    

Response:

– vacuum.  I have used a venturi and it can draw (for our purposes) as good a vacuum as you can get: 25" Hg (typically 28", where atmospheric pressure is 29-30").  These are not that expensive and utilize the output of an air compressor.  I know Lee Valley tools used to sell one (maybe they still do) so suppliers like Garrett Wade or Woodworker’s Supply probably do as well.

Once the vacuum is achieved, does the compressor continue to run?

Response:

— vacuum.  I have used a venturi and it can draw (for our purposes) as good a vacuum as you can get: 25" Hg (typically 28", where atmospheric pressure is 29-30").  These are not that expensive and utilize the output of an air compressor.  I know Lee Valley tools used to sell one (maybe they still do) so suppliers like Garrett Wade or Woodworker’s Supply probably do as well. Once the vacuum is achieved, does the compressor continue to run?

No.  Assuming you’ve got a leaktight system you turn off the valve (which you installed for this purpose) between the venturi and the veneering bag.  At this point you can turn off the airflow to the venturi.  And it doesn’t take very long to draw the vacuum, just a minute or two if you haven’t left too much excess air in the bag. — Tom more is better too much is just enough NO MONEY SPENT ON TOOLS IS WASTED

Response:

I am looking  to manufacture for myself a suction press for veneer work utilising the intake of a compressor and a heavy duty plastic bag. Are there any tips I should be aware of before I start. eg best couplings, best plastic, amount of suction required, publications etc?? Any help appreciated , thanks, Antony.

Response:

  I am looking  to manufacture for myself a suction press for veneer   work   utilising the intake of a compressor and a heavy duty plastic bag.   Are there   any tips I should be aware of before I start. eg best couplings,   best   plastic, amount of suction required, publications etc??   Any help appreciated , thanks,   Antony.  Before you get started I would recommend that you check out "The Veneering Book" by David Square published by Taunton Press. — Kevin Miske                                               email: University of Illinois at Chicago                    phone: 312.996.3920 (w) Magnetic Resonance Imaging Center           phone: 312.243.2840 (h)

Response:

Question:

Unless a vendor at one of the Web sites listed below has drastically reduced prices in recent days, NONE is as inexpensive as the Hospital Center Pharmacy (mail order, 1-800-824-2401) at $51 per 100 One Touch strips or Diabetic Express (mail order, 1-800-338-4656) at $31 per 100 CheckMate Plus strips. DKC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Also try Oxystat at http://www.oxystat.com/diabetes or 800 767-7828 You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike Check out the following website which has phone numbers of several online and mail order daibetes suppliers: http://www.castleweb.com/diabetes/D_06_900.HTM I have no affiliation.  Just passing along the info. Ramsey

– David Cohler, South Pasadena

Response:

You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources?

Roxanne Goldberg replied: Please try Diabetes Forecast!  There are several advertisers in the monthly issue.  They have test strips for around $ 51.00 or so per hundred.  They also charge a nominal fee for postage.  I can think of 2 of them: Diabetes Promotions and Diabetes Express.  There are more.

Not only can you find good prices via mail order, you can also benefit from the rapid turnover of the volume sellers to get fresh supplies with excellent expiration dates.  for example, i just purchased seven boxes of 100 medisense precision QID strips for my ‘pen 2′ meter for 49.75/box, and their expiration date is 28 feb 1997!!!  it really was worth the time to make a few calls. (and something i haven’t heard mentioned too often, but seems to be impossible for lifescan: the medisense and glucometer elite strips all come packaged in individual foil wrappers so you can carry two or three with you during the day to work, on a hike, etc. lifescan appears to have given up on foil strips — their customer service rep didn’t want to talk about it last time i called and asked.) cheers, -jonathan

Response:

Try Penny Saver Drug in Denver:  1-800-748-1909 They are very competitive IMHO, ship by mail or UPS, accept plastic and send COD if necessary. — |Jim Devenport                                          | |All Standard Disclaimers Disclaimed                    | |My views rarely (if ever) reflect those of my employers|

Response:

You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike

Check out the following website which has phone numbers of several online and mail order daibetes suppliers: http://www.castleweb.com/diabetes/D_06_900.HTM I have no affiliation.  Just passing along the info. Ramsey

Response:

Also try Oxystat at http://www.oxystat.com/diabetes or 800 767-7828 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike Check out the following website which has phone numbers of several online and mail order daibetes suppliers: http://www.castleweb.com/diabetes/D_06_900.HTM I have no affiliation.  Just passing along the info. Ramsey

Response:

You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike

Response:

If you are a member of ADA and receive Diabetic Forecast magazine you will find several pharmacies advertising which lists Lifescan One Touch test strips for $ 51.29 per 100…there is a 2 or 3 dollar shipping charge so the cost is much lower than what you are now paying. I have used Hospital Center Pharmacy in Boston for test strips for years…they ship promptly and take credit cards. Their number is 1-800-824-2401. I’m sure there are others listed that do just as well. Call them for information on prices and etc. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike Mail order is my business, Mike, and I haven’t seen any either.  I’ll talk to a few mail order people in this area and see if I can locate what you are looking for.  If I do, I’ll post. Cheryl

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike Mail order is my business, Mike, and I haven’t seen any either.  I’ll talk to a few mail order people in this area and see if I can locate what you are looking for.  If I do, I’ll post. Cheryl

Please try Diabetes Forecast!  There are several advertisers in the monthly issue.  They have test strips for around $ 51.00 or so per hundred.  They also charge a nominal fee for postage.  I can think of 2 of them: Diabetes Promotions and Diabetes Express.  There are more.                                           Roxanne —       Roxanne Goldberg, CPA         Tax topic pages:       P.O. Box 0116             http://www.telesphere.com/ts/rgcpa       Wyncote, Pa.  19095-0116  http://www.mindspring.com/~maia/c56.html       (fast snail mail address) http://www.geopages.com/CapitolHill/1099        Member ANA, BCCS, EAC, ICTA, JRCS, and, of course PICPA.                     Accounting is a taxing profession.

Response:

You’d think you could save some bucks by ordering your diabetic supplies, especially BG test strips, through the mail. But I really haven’t found any bargains in searching through the ads of three or four companies I found here on the Internet. For instance, I pay $29.50 for a 50-pack of Lifescan strips at WalMart, and I haven’t been able to find them any cheaper than that.  Has anybody found any good Mail Order sources? Mike

Mail order is my business, Mike, and I haven’t seen any either.  I’ll talk to a few mail order people in this area and see if I can locate what you are looking for.  If I do, I’ll post. Cheryl

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