Do you enjoy being an Accountant? | Finance Accounting

Question:

What a great attitude, hoping when I get there to read it you got a great loss, Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Hi Ray, With all that exercise, it most probably was water! At least you’re a lot fitter now than a week ago I hope this next week gives you a nice big whoosh! Good luck! Heather

Response:

Better luck next week Ray. — Brenda 209/178/150 IFFC goal 175

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

Ray, your positive attitude over everything just makes me smile whenever I read your posts. I am sure that all this extra exercise has made you gain water and muscle. I see a big whoose in your future too!!! =) -Susie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

Sorry about the gain, Ray, but I’m sure you’ll get a whoosh soon. Take care of your knee. Linda 252/187/136 IFFC goal–180

Response:

Well, when water skiing, ahem, attempting to water ski and not getting off the skimming surface, I’ve added water at the wrong end – so it is possible (G) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

I like your attitude. We should all pay attention. Sometimes there is just no accounting for why the scale refuses to cooperate. You’re right – there IS a tidal whoosh coming your way. Paper 250.6/235.2/150? Joined WW Apr 30/03 Dream it, believe it, and you can achieve it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

Gosh, it’s no wonder you laughed LOL!! I’ve had a couple of very small gains from something similar but I was annoyed – maybe if the gain had been as big as yours was, I would have laughed also ;-D I bet she was shocked at your laughing ;-D - I look forward to seeing how big your loss is next week ;-D Elaine K 331.4/186.6/179 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

Sorry about the gain, but I’m sure it is all water gain. Next week watch out for the flood — Patty 211.2/186/155 Started WW 12/02

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

LOL, Ray. I think you handled it well. Sounds like you had a great day at the park. I’m sure jealous! — Joy 285/258.2/150

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

Ah sore muscles hold water like sponges. And those of us who are (or have been) more gravity challenged have an awful lot of muscle. The neat thing is, they will let it go after they adjust to the new level of activity. With a rather impressive whoosh. I love to see the week that I gained 5 followed by the week after that I lost 6 on my little graph. Lesanne (365)247/171.6/164

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

You had a great reaction, Ray. And congrats on the exercise ! I ‘m pretty sure you ‘re retaining water (you can’t gain 5 lbs of fat in a week), so prepare yourself for a nice whoosh! — Nathalie from Belgium 134.1/108.8/minigoal 106.9 Goal 68 Kg 295.6/239.8/minigoal 235.6/Goal 150 pounds IFFC 245.9/239.8/234

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

"Ray Miller" spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?).

A definite yes!!! Water slides can put water where it isn’t meant to be!!!!!

Response:

Well, what else can you do but laugh after a week like you’ve had only to see the scale go up!? Your body sounds totally confused about what it’s supposed to do! Here’s hoping you’ll have the last laugh very soon. Great job on the getting those bike miles in, Ray. Take care of those knees. — Prairie Roots 232/201.6/IFFC 202/(?)157 joined WW Online 22-Feb-2003 Here’s our FAQ: http://www.didian.com/asdww/ and welcome notice: http://www.geocities.com/welcomenotice/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future.

My weight loss stalled when I started exercising. It was a mixture of water retention and muscle gain I think. I very soon started losing again, and I felt lots better. I’ve just come out of the bath after 30 minutes on the bike and 10 minutes with hand weights and I feel great, if a little achy. Be careful of the knee. Make sure you don’t overdo it, and make sure you warm up before and stretch after. Good luck Ray — rmnsuk overall – 273/210/182 iffc - 218/210/200

Response:

Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

The body retains water when you exercise a lot and stay busy. You should have a big whoosh next week. You might also be adding muscle, you have a great attitude! — Just a little bump in the road! SuzyQ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I don’t think my reaction was what the weigher expected, she whispered to me that I was up 5.2 lbs and I laughed, deep and well. I’ve gotten more exercize this week since I started the program. Rode 6 miles on my new bike (took a couple days off cause my knee was acting up) and then yesterday spent the day at a Disney water park (Typhon Lagoon) climbing up stairs and fighting the wave pool (10 foot waves) all day. I’m pooped. Since I was 3 points down from the previous on my weekly points ( 24 over minimum), I guess the weight increase is probably water (can you ingest water from the wrong end going down a water slide?). Otherwise it might be that gravity is affecting me differently this week.. I’m not worried about it. Looking forward to a big whoosh in my future. Ray 560/376.8/200

Response:

Question:

posted & emailed This seems very accurate. It is why Intuit has people monitoring forums like this looking for problems. About half the time I refer Tom to someone he tells me they have already seen the post and have already contacted the person. Of course, as you say, it does not feel good if you are the one with a nightmare.

If Intuit has people monitoring forums like this, why doesn’t Intuit have their people respond in this forum? Keeping it a secret won’t help them, and relying on St. Mike to communicate it isn’t working. Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -posted & emailed This seems very accurate. It is why Intuit has people monitoring forums like this looking for problems. About half the time I refer Tom to someone he tells me they have already seen the post and have already contacted the person. Of course, as you say, it does not feel good if you are the one with a nightmare. If Intuit has people monitoring forums like this, why doesn’t Intuit have their people respond in this forum? Keeping it a secret won’t help them, and relying on St. Mike to communicate it isn’t working. Jim

They never have had anyone do this. When a Quicken guy posted often, on his own time, he was so often trashed he finally dropped out. Perhaps such a person might need company clearance to respond. Regardless, it is working. There are few post about this now. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

Posted & Emailed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – posted & emailed This seems very accurate. It is why Intuit has people monitoring forums like this looking for problems. About half the time I refer Tom to someone he tells me they have already seen the post and have already contacted the person. Of course, as you say, it does not feel good if you are the one with a nightmare. If Intuit has people monitoring forums like this, why doesn’t Intuit have their people respond in this forum? Keeping it a secret won’t help them, and relying on St. Mike to communicate it isn’t working. Jim They never have had anyone do this. When a Quicken guy posted often, on his own time, he was so often trashed he finally dropped out. Perhaps such a person might need company clearance to respond. Regardless, it is working.

I would expect an Intuit employee posting here to need clearance. I can’t see how you can say "it is working". Their feedback to this forum is not working. Their feedback on problems they have solved is not working. Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Posted & Emailed. If Intuit has people monitoring forums like this, why doesn’t Intuit have their people respond in this forum? Keeping it a secret won’t help them, and relying on St. Mike to communicate it isn’t working. Jim They never have had anyone do this. When a Quicken guy posted often, on his own time, he was so often trashed he finally dropped out. Perhaps such a person might need company clearance to respond. Regardless, it is working.

Why did you cut this from my last post: "There are few post about this now." That is why I said it is working. I would expect an Intuit employee posting here to need clearance. I can’t see how you can say "it is working". Their feedback to this forum is not working. Their feedback on problems they have solved is not working. Jim

Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

Posted and Emailed. They never have had anyone do this. When a Quicken guy posted often, on his own time, he was so often trashed he finally dropped out. Perhaps such a person might need company clearance to respond. Regardless, it is working. Why did you cut this from my last post: "There are few post about this now." That is why I said it is working.

Don’t see how this line make "it" working. All that says is one issue has passed. Still not sure what you mean by "it is working – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I would expect an Intuit employee posting here to need clearance. I can’t see how you can say "it is working". Their feedback to this forum is not working. Their feedback on problems they have solved is not working. Jim Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

Don’t see how this line make "it" working. All that says is one issue has passed. Still not sure what you mean by "it is working

It’s the Mike Block defintion of "working". That is, Intuit’s revenues continue to increase despite applakling customer service, and a license activation and enforcement scheme that causes legitimate customers grief. It means that the amount of protest posts have died down since the Wall Street Journal article. It doesn’t mean the problems have been solved. It just means that the optics have improved.

Response:

Your comment is not accurate, Mike. In the "good old days", Intuit fully supported their products online via the CompuServe forums. Users would interact DIRECTLY with support specialists and other power users in the forums. The support people had access to the software engineers and usually came back with both the correct solution to the user’s problem and an AUTHORIZED explanation of how the software operated. Furthermore, bug determinations were made quickly without rancor and put on the to-do list of the engineers. As time went on, Intuit reduced the online staffing levels and the quality of the people assigned to this support. The company pulled the plug after encountering a blizzard of user complaints regarding a particularly inept and bug-ridden upgrade version. "In order to better serve our customers", Intuit ran from public scrutiny and put in place of the public forum a private one-to-one customer dialog where it could easily (and invisibly) turn away customer comments, criticisms, suggestions and questions. The rest is history. Austin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If Intuit has people monitoring forums like this, why doesn’t Intuit have their people respond in this forum? Keeping it a secret won’t help them, and relying on St. Mike to communicate it isn’t working. Jim They never have had anyone do this. When a Quicken guy posted often, on his own time, he was so often trashed he finally dropped out. Perhaps such a person might need company clearance to respond. Regardless, it is working. There are few post about this now. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I have three new emails from Tom this morning. Not only did Intuit apologize, but the specific person I asked to apologize did so (though he had made no prior public comment on TurboTax). Tom did not do this because I needed an apology or publicity. He did so once I asked because we agreed with newsgroup posts that Intuit should do this. That it should come from hum was my idea, which he accepted." Meanwhile at Intuit headquarters the special "Mike Block Red Phone" rings and the VPs jump to action…. "Yes sir right away sir, public apology will be posted today sir!" What utter BS. Give it a rest Mike, your a bit too self involved for the rest of reality. Do you actually think Intuit apologized because YOU and YOU ALONE told them too?

My requests are a small part of the data Tom gets. I am sure he will not do foolish things for me, but am constructive. People here said Intuit should apologize. I was the only one to publicly agree AND specifically say Tom should do it. 30 hours later a man who was not quoted before about TurboTax activation did so in the Cnet story. A while ago someone wanted what I felt was excessive activation (10 years). I asked Tom to promise this anyway. His favorable reply (on my website about 4 hours later) plainly shows this was a case of first impression. When I claimed responsibility for it someone said I was a megalomaniac, but the emails prove otherwise. I then publicly and privately wrote Tom that it made no economic sense to pay for activation servers for 10 years, as this would not satisfy some users. That made me say Intuit should instead provide a C-Dilla free version of TurboTax after 10/15. It took about 2 days after that for an ExtremeTech article to say this. I could ask Tom to say that my advise on these points was a key part of his decisions or inspiration for them, but that would ask something for me I do not need. Therefore, you need not say Intuit listens to me. It is OK if you believe I am a terrific psychic in predicting what they do. Saint Mike is sounding even better. Tom and I know what is going on and that is enough for us both. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is the real story: "We’ve got well over 3 1/2 million people who have activated the product through the server and never had a problem. But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." No one has a problem — until they have a problem. Most people are fat-dumb-and-happy, until something unexpected happens and they have to re-activate TT — that is when the nightmare starts. That is when the "we don’t collect any personal information" sails out the window. To re-activate they want your name, address, where you purchased TT, and so on. The only way to remain anonymous is to purchase another TT.

This seems very accurate. It is why Intuit has people monitoring forums like this looking for problems. About half the time I refer Tom to someone he tells me they have already seen the post and have already contacted the person. Of course, as you say, it does not feel good if you are the one with a nightmare. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -They make people who do have problems feel like an intruder and that they (Intuit) are doing them a big favor to re-activate, rather than understanding that the problem was caused by the product, not the consumer. Good news is not news worthy. No one really cares when everything goes right. It is when thing go wrong that people start paying attention. How a company handles the problems of the few is much more important to the reputation of the company than all of the non-problems put together. To a lot of folks, the reputation of a company’s service department is as important, or more important, than the product itself. Lots of people buy cars, for example, from dealers with good reputation for their service, and shy away from those who they have reportably poor service. I say all of this because Intuit still seems to be puffing up all those who have _not_ had problems (and not having problems is what most people would expect anyway), rather than smoothing the path for those few who do have problems, and trying to make the problem solving process as easy as possible so the customer leaves with a good feeling about Intuit — a company that cares; rather than a company that made them feel like a criminal. -Ernie-

Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

Ah thought you were making your own statement, hard to figure out what your referring to sometimes as you mix your own statements with those of others especially since you didn’t quote that section properly in your reply. "Intuit executives said during the company’s second-quarter earnings call earlier this month that the TurboTax flap has had a negligible effect on the company’s business. "

I failed to put quotation marks about the section pasted from the article, but it really seems to be an exact copy. You must not have read the article carefully. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmm, so you don’t work for Intuit and you don’t own stock yet you know what was said during the earnings call. Very odd. Does Intuit have a policy of letting anyone join such calls? This is nuts. Go to the cited Cnet article that is the subject of this thread. I marked this as a QUOTE. It is the last of several parts of the article quoted, because it is the last paragraph of the article. Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top If that wraps here it is at make a shorter link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C22C26593 Looks like a small step in the right direction. A very small step. Barely an apology. "But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." I think calling this barely an apology is at least as prejudiced as some of my statements It is an apology AND it comes from Tom Allanson, Intuit Senior VP of Consumer Tax. This is the first TurboTax announcement not from a "company spokesman." It is what I publicly asked Tom to do less than 30 hours earlier in this newsgroup (and copied to him). Thank you very much Tom. If anyone thinks Intuit is trying to hide this then this clearly seems to say otherwise. Some will never forgive Intuit for a mistake, though we all should make as few as they do. We also all should like the first part of this (which is what Tom told me on January 26): "We’re probably going to go with a much different strategy next year–it will not be memory-resident; it won’t have any of the writing to track zero problem," he said. I agree the first part of this is silly: "We did it that way because we don’t want to eat up disk space, and we wanted to make it easier if people had to restore from a backup." This is the real story: "We’ve got well over 3 1/2 million people who have activated the product through the server and never had a problem. But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." Intuit executives said during the company’s second-quarter earnings call earlier this month that the TurboTax flap has had a negligible effect on the company’s business. The latest software sales reports from market researcher NPD Group still show Inuit on top, with versions of TurboTax accounting for the top three retail software packages during the first week of February, followed by three versions of H&R Block’s competing TaxCut products. I must say this does not sound like TurboTax still has a 70% market share. That is why Tom now needs a further public statement, coupled with website confirmation, about the other things he told me, ExtremeTech and now Cnet.

Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

"I have three new emails from Tom this morning. Not only did Intuit apologize, but the specific person I asked to apologize did so (though he had made no prior public comment on TurboTax). Tom did not do this because I needed an apology or publicity. He did so once I asked because we agreed with newsgroup posts that Intuit should do this. That it should come from hum was my idea, which he accepted." Meanwhile at Intuit headquarters the special "Mike Block Red Phone" rings and the VPs jump to action…. "Yes sir right away sir, public apology will be posted today sir!" What utter BS. Give it a rest Mike, your a bit too self involved for the rest of reality. Do you actually think Intuit apologized because YOU and YOU ALONE told them too? —– "I will always do almost anything you ask…" – Mike Block to an Intuit Manager circa Jan 2003 —–

Response:

just be glad Daniel Lavigne doesn’t use turbotax ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At some point in your life, can you begin omitting alt.accounting from your bash Intuit & Mike Block posts? I have an idea, start a new group called "Bash Mike Block and Intuit" group. Then have at it. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia

Response:

"What do you mean by really bad…? All of it is true. Tom" Hehe I guess that’s the Intuit definition of "true". There is now way on earth that writing to the zero sector was meant to save space for the user, that is a misleading statement clear and simple and shows Intuit is still trying to spin this around with more misleading statements wrapped up in supposed apologies. Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the

TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top Looks like a small step in the right direction. I wrote Tom about the article and he quickly replied: —–Original Message—– Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:25 AM To: Allanson, Tom I tremendously liked this. The best part was the personal apology from the man who really matters. There was one really bad part: "We did it that way because we don’t want to eat up disk space,…" —– Original Message —– To: ‘Mike Block – QuickBooks Tax Cut C.P.A.’ Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:46 AM What do you mean by really bad…? All of it is true. Tom I do not know how much space TT now uses in this hidden area. I doubt it is only the 1m it takes as a resident program. However, to me this fast response shows that Intuit believed what Tom said. That does not mean it was not a bad decision as Tom indicates elsewhere in the article. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

This is the real story: "We’ve got well over 3 1/2 million people who have activated the product through the server and never had a problem. But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted."

No one has a problem — until they have a problem. Most people are fat-dumb-and-happy, until something unexpected happens and they have to re-activate TT — that is when the nightmare starts. That is when the "we don’t collect any personal information" sails out the window. To re-activate they want your name, address, where you purchased TT, and so on. The only way to remain anonymous is to purchase another TT. They make people who do have problems feel like an intruder and that they (Intuit) are doing them a big favor to re-activate, rather than understanding that the problem was caused by the product, not the consumer. Good news is not news worthy. No one really cares when everything goes right. It is when thing go wrong that people start paying attention. How a company handles the problems of the few is much more important to the reputation of the company than all of the non-problems put together. To a lot of folks, the reputation of a company’s service department is as important, or more important, than the product itself. Lots of people buy cars, for example, from dealers with good reputation for their service, and shy away from those who they have reportably poor service. I say all of this because Intuit still seems to be puffing up all those who have _not_ had problems (and not having problems is what most people would expect anyway), rather than smoothing the path for those few who do have problems, and trying to make the problem solving process as easy as possible so the customer leaves with a good feeling about Intuit — a company that cares; rather than a company that made them feel like a criminal. -Ernie-

Response:

Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top Looks like a small step in the right direction.

I wrote Tom about the article and he quickly replied: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——Original Message—– Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:25 AM To: Allanson, Tom I tremendously liked this. The best part was the personal apology from the man who really matters. There was one really bad part: "We did it that way because we don’t want to eat up disk space,…" —– Original Message —– To: ‘Mike Block – QuickBooks Tax Cut C.P.A.’ Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:46 AM What do you mean by really bad…? All of it is true. Tom I do not know how much space TT now uses in this hidden area. I doubt it is only the 1m it takes as a resident program. However, to me this fast response shows that Intuit believed what Tom said. That does not mean it was not a bad decision as Tom indicates elsewhere in the article. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top If that wraps here it is at make a shorter link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C22C26593 Looks like a small step in the right direction. A very small step. Barely an apology. "But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." I think calling this barely an apology is at least as prejudiced as some of my statements Mike – I have successfully resisted replying to your posts even with you were posting bald face lies. However, I cannot avoid responding when you call me "prejudiced" for expressing my opinion about an Intuit press release. Perhaps you have no idea what the word prejudiced means? Please explain how it applies to a situation in which I express my displeasure with one single company? You were involved in a long, bandwidth wasting thread a short while back about the meaning of shill. Perhaps you need a new dictionary.

The article headline is "Intuit offers TurboTax tests, apologies. It says, "But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." What part of this is NOT an apology, must less barely one? This is the first TurboTax announcement not from a "company spokesman." It is what I publicly asked Tom to do less than 30 hours earlier in this newsgroup (and copied to him). Thank you very much Tom. Funny that he didn’t mention you.

I have three new emails from Tom this morning. Not only did Intuit apologize, but the specific person I asked to apologize did so (though he had made no prior public comment on TurboTax). Tom did not do this because I needed an apology or publicity. He did so once I asked because we agreed with newsgroup posts that Intuit should do this. That it should come from hum was my idea, which he accepted. Now we need details of what he and his website should confirm as to changes for this year. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

Ah thought you were making your own statement, hard to figure out what your referring to sometimes as you mix your own statements with those of others especially since you didn’t quote that section properly in your reply. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Intuit executives said during the company’s second-quarter earnings call earlier this month that the TurboTax flap has had a negligible effect on the company’s business. " Hmm, so you don’t work for Intuit and you don’t own stock yet you know what was said during the earnings call. Very odd. Does Intuit have a policy of letting anyone join such calls? This is nuts. Go to the cited Cnet article that is the subject of this thread. I marked this as a QUOTE. It is the last of several parts of the article quoted, because it is the last paragraph of the article. Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top If that wraps here it is at make a shorter link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C22C26593 Looks like a small step in the right direction. A very small step. Barely an apology. "But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." I think calling this barely an apology is at least as prejudiced as some of my statements It is an apology AND it comes from Tom Allanson, Intuit Senior VP of Consumer Tax. This is the first TurboTax announcement not from a "company spokesman." It is what I publicly asked Tom to do less than 30 hours earlier in this newsgroup (and copied to him). Thank you very much Tom. If anyone thinks Intuit is trying to hide this then this clearly seems to say otherwise. Some will never forgive Intuit for a mistake, though we all should make as few as they do. We also all should like the first part of this (which is what Tom told me on January 26): "We’re probably going to go with a much different strategy next year–it will not be memory-resident; it won’t have any of the writing to track zero problem," he said. I agree the first part of this is silly: "We did it that way because we don’t want to eat up disk space, and we wanted to make it easier if people had to restore from a backup." This is the real story: "We’ve got well over 3 1/2 million people who have activated the product through the server and never had a problem. But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." Intuit executives said during the company’s second-quarter earnings call earlier this month that the TurboTax flap has had a negligible effect on the company’s business. The latest software sales reports from market researcher NPD Group still show Inuit on top, with versions of TurboTax accounting for the top three retail software packages during the first week of February, followed by three versions of H&R Block’s competing TaxCut products. I must say this does not sound like TurboTax still has a 70% market share. That is why Tom now needs a further public statement, coupled with website confirmation, about the other things he told me, ExtremeTech and now Cnet. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

–Victor, Mike just likes to play the semantics game. Since he cannot –directly state what Intuit wants to do he needs to mix words and try and –diminish the comments of others in order to make Intuit look good. It seems –to be his single goal in life is to protect Intuit’s reputation at all cost, –as to why we can only guess. My guess is he is just to invested in Personal capital

Response:

"Intuit executives said during the company’s second-quarter earnings call earlier this month that the TurboTax flap has had a negligible effect on the company’s business. " Hmm, so you don’t work for Intuit and you don’t own stock yet you know what was said during the earnings call. Very odd. Does Intuit have a policy of letting anyone join such calls?

This is nuts. Go to the cited Cnet article that is the subject of this thread. I marked this as a QUOTE. It is the last of several parts of the article quoted, because it is the last paragraph of the article. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top If that wraps here it is at make a shorter link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C22C26593 Looks like a small step in the right direction. A very small step. Barely an apology. "But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." I think calling this barely an apology is at least as prejudiced as some of my statements It is an apology AND it comes from Tom Allanson, Intuit Senior VP of Consumer Tax. This is the first TurboTax announcement not from a "company spokesman." It is what I publicly asked Tom to do less than 30 hours earlier in this newsgroup (and copied to him). Thank you very much Tom. If anyone thinks Intuit is trying to hide this then this clearly seems to say otherwise. Some will never forgive Intuit for a mistake, though we all should make as few as they do. We also all should like the first part of this (which is what Tom told me on January 26): "We’re probably going to go with a much different strategy next year–it will not be memory-resident; it won’t have any of the writing to track zero problem," he said. I agree the first part of this is silly: "We did it that way because we don’t want to eat up disk space, and we wanted to make it easier if people had to restore from a backup." This is the real story: "We’ve got well over 3 1/2 million people who have activated the product through the server and never had a problem. But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." Intuit executives said during the company’s second-quarter earnings call earlier this month that the TurboTax flap has had a negligible effect on the company’s business. The latest software sales reports from market researcher NPD Group still show Inuit on top, with versions of TurboTax accounting for the top three retail software packages during the first week of February, followed by three versions of H&R Block’s competing TaxCut products. I must say this does not sound like TurboTax still has a 70% market share. That is why Tom now needs a further public statement, coupled with website confirmation, about the other things he told me, ExtremeTech and now Cnet. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

At some point in your life, can you begin omitting alt.accounting from your bash Intuit & Mike Block posts? I have an idea, start a new group called "Bash Mike Block and Intuit" group. Then have at it. — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens, Georgia

Response:

it is funny how mike block takes credit for everything related to intuit – like they designated him the "go-to" guy for intuit, a grandiose shill if there was ever one!

comment about him contacting the VP and telling him to make a press – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – release and then 30 hours later is funny though. Just like the TT boycott Mike likes to jump in and take credit for everything related to Intuit, yet he isn’t an insider and has nothing personal to gain from Intuit If the VP is taking orders from Mr Block then Intuit is worse off than any of us even imagined. —– "I will always do almost anything you ask…" – Mike Block to an Intuit Manager circa Jan 2003 —– Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top If that wraps here it is at make a shorter link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C22C26593 Looks like a small step in the right direction. A very small step. Barely an apology. "But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." I think calling this barely an apology is at least as prejudiced as some of my statements Mike – I have successfully resisted replying to your posts even with you were posting bald face lies. However, I cannot avoid responding when you call me "prejudiced" for expressing my opinion about an Intuit press release. Perhaps you have no idea what the word prejudiced means? Please explain how it applies to a situation in which I express my displeasure with one single company? You were involved in a long, bandwidth wasting thread a short while back about the meaning of shill. Perhaps you need a new dictionary. It is an apology AND it comes from Tom Allanson, Intuit Senior VP of Consumer Tax. Gee. I’m still not impressed. This is the first TurboTax announcement not from a "company spokesman." It is what I publicly asked Tom to do less than 30 hours earlier in this newsgroup (and copied to him). Thank you very much Tom. Funny that he didn’t mention you. — Vic Roberts http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com Victor, Mike just likes to play the semantics game. Since he cannot directly state what Intuit wants to do he needs to mix words and try and diminish the comments of others in order to make Intuit look good. It seems to be his single goal in life is to protect Intuit’s reputation at all cost, as to why we can only guess.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top If that wraps here it is at make a shorter link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C22C26593 Looks like a small step in the right direction. A very small step. Barely an apology. "But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." I think calling this barely an apology is at least as prejudiced as some of my statements

Mike – I have successfully resisted replying to your posts even with you were posting bald face lies. However, I cannot avoid responding when you call me "prejudiced" for expressing my opinion about an Intuit press release. Perhaps you have no idea what the word prejudiced means? Please explain how it applies to a situation in which I express my displeasure with one single company? You were involved in a long, bandwidth wasting thread a short while back about the meaning of shill. Perhaps you need a new dictionary. It is an apology AND it comes from Tom Allanson, Intuit Senior VP of Consumer Tax.

Gee. I’m still not impressed. This is the first TurboTax announcement not from a "company spokesman." It is what I publicly asked Tom to do less than 30 hours earlier in this newsgroup (and copied to him). Thank you very much Tom.

Funny that he didn’t mention you. — Vic Roberts http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com

Response:

Victor, Mike just likes to play the semantics game. Since he cannot directly state what Intuit wants to do he needs to mix words and try and diminish the comments of others in order to make Intuit look good. It seems to be his single goal in life is to protect Intuit’s reputation at all cost, as to why we can only guess. The comment about him contacting the VP and telling him to make a press release and then 30 hours later is funny though. Just like the TT boycott Mike likes to jump in and take credit for everything related to Intuit, yet he isn’t an insider and has nothing personal to gain from Intuit If the VP is taking orders from Mr Block then Intuit is worse off than any of us even imagined. —– "I will always do almost anything you ask…" – Mike Block to an Intuit Manager circa Jan 2003 —–

Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the

TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top If that wraps here it is at make a shorter link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C22C26593 Looks like a small step in the right direction. A very small step. Barely an apology. "But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." I think calling this barely an apology is at least as prejudiced as some of my statements Mike – I have successfully resisted replying to your posts even with you were posting bald face lies. However, I cannot avoid responding when you call me "prejudiced" for expressing my opinion about an Intuit press release. Perhaps you have no idea what the word prejudiced means? Please explain how it applies to a situation in which I express my displeasure with one single company? You were involved in a long, bandwidth wasting thread a short while back about the meaning of shill. Perhaps you need a new dictionary. It is an apology AND it comes from Tom Allanson, Intuit Senior VP of Consumer Tax. Gee. I’m still not impressed. This is the first TurboTax announcement not from a "company spokesman." It is what I publicly asked Tom to do less than 30 hours earlier in this newsgroup (and copied to him). Thank you very much Tom. Funny that he didn’t mention you. — Vic Roberts http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com

Response:

Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top If that wraps here it is at make a shorter link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C22C26593 Looks like a small step in the right direction. A very small step. Barely an apology.

"But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." I think calling this barely an apology is at least as prejudiced as some of my statements It is an apology AND it comes from Tom Allanson, Intuit Senior VP of Consumer Tax. This is the first TurboTax announcement not from a "company spokesman." It is what I publicly asked Tom to do less than 30 hours earlier in this newsgroup (and copied to him). Thank you very much Tom. If anyone thinks Intuit is trying to hide this then this clearly seems to say otherwise. Some will never forgive Intuit for a mistake, though we all should make as few as they do. We also all should like the first part of this (which is what Tom told me on January 26): "We’re probably going to go with a much different strategy next year–it will not be memory-resident; it won’t have any of the writing to track zero problem," he said. I agree the first part of this is silly: "We did it that way because we don’t want to eat up disk space, and we wanted to make it easier if people had to restore from a backup." This is the real story: "We’ve got well over 3 1/2 million people who have activated the product through the server and never had a problem. But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." Intuit executives said during the company’s second-quarter earnings call earlier this month that the TurboTax flap has had a negligible effect on the company’s business. The latest software sales reports from market researcher NPD Group still show Inuit on top, with versions of TurboTax accounting for the top three retail software packages during the first week of February, followed by three versions of H&R Block’s competing TaxCut products. I must say this does not sound like TurboTax still has a 70% market share. That is why Tom now needs a further public statement, coupled with website confirmation, about the other things he told me, ExtremeTech and now Cnet. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

"Intuit executives said during the company’s second-quarter earnings call earlier this month that the TurboTax flap has had a negligible effect on the company’s business. " Hmm, so you don’t work for Intuit and you don’t own stock yet you know what was said during the earnings call. Very odd. Does Intuit have a policy of letting anyone join such calls? —– "I will always do almost anything you ask…" – Mike Block to an Intuit Manager circa Jan 2003 —– Hi all, having lurked here since last December and the start of the

TT/C_DILLA debacle, I haven’t seen a reference to this. It was posted on 2/23/03 AM in the grc.privacy news group. The link is: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://news.com.com/2100-1040-985648.html?tag=fd_top If that wraps here it is at make a shorter link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?C22C26593 Looks like a small step in the right direction. A very small step. Barely an apology. "But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." I think calling this barely an apology is at least as prejudiced as some of my statements It is an apology AND it comes from Tom Allanson, Intuit Senior VP of Consumer Tax. This is the first TurboTax announcement not from a "company spokesman." It is what I publicly asked Tom to do less than 30 hours earlier in this newsgroup (and copied to him). Thank you very much Tom. If anyone thinks Intuit is trying to hide this then this clearly seems to say otherwise. Some will never forgive Intuit for a mistake, though we all should make as few as they do. We also all should like the first part of this (which is what Tom told me on January 26): "We’re probably going to go with a much different strategy next year–it will not be memory-resident; it won’t have any of the writing to track zero problem," he said. I agree the first part of this is silly: "We did it that way because we don’t want to eat up disk space, and we wanted to make it easier if people had to restore from a backup." This is the real story: "We’ve got well over 3 1/2 million people who have activated the product through the server and never had a problem. But I am very sorry for the customers who have been impacted." Intuit executives said during the company’s second-quarter earnings call earlier this month that the TurboTax flap has had a negligible effect on the company’s business. The latest software sales reports from market researcher NPD Group still show Inuit on top, with versions of TurboTax accounting for the top three retail software packages during the first week of February, followed by three versions of H&R Block’s competing TaxCut products. I must say this does not sound like TurboTax still has a 70% market share. That is why Tom now needs a further public statement, coupled with website confirmation, about the other things he told me, ExtremeTech and now Cnet. Mike Block, QuickBooks Tax Cut CPA, 954-566-7540 Founding Member: QuickBooks Advisory Council Error Codes/Fixes http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-errors.htm QB Add-ons http://blocktax.com/quickbooks-addons/quickbooks-add-ons.htm

Response:

Question:

CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS http://www.antiwar.com CORRESPONDENT: Since Sept. 11, more than 60 Israelis have been arrested or detained, either under the new patriot anti-terrorism law, or for immigration violations. A handful of active Israeli military were among those detained,

Snip* Send them back to Israel in body bags!

Response:

CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS http://www.antiwar.com CORRESPONDENT: Since Sept. 11, more than 60 Israelis have been arrested or detained, either under the new patriot anti-terrorism law, or for immigration violations. A handful of active Israeli military were among those detained, according to investigators, who say some of the detainees also failed polygraph questions when asked about alleged surveillance activities against and in the United States. There is no indication that the Israelis were involved in the 9/11 attacks, but investigators suspect that they Israelis may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance, and not shared it. A highly placed investigator said there are "tie-ins." But when asked for details, he flatly refused to describe them, saying, "evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information." Fox News has learned that one group of Israelis, spotted in North Carolina recently, is suspected of keeping an apartment in California to spy on a group of Arabs who the United States is also investigating for links to terrorism. Numerous classified documents obtained by Fox News indicate that even prior to Sept. 11, as many as 140 other Israelis had been detained or arrested in a secretive and sprawling investigation into suspected espionage by Israelis in the United States. Investigators from numerous government agencies are part of a working group that’s been compiling evidence since the mid ’90s. These documents detail hundreds of incidents in cities and towns across the country that investigators say, "may well be an organized intelligence gathering activity." The first part of the investigation focuses on Israelis who say they are art students from the University of Jerusalem and Bazala Academy. They repeatedly made contact with U.S. government personnel, the report says, by saying they wanted to sell cheap art or handiwork. Documents say they, "targeted and penetrated military bases." The DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, and even secret offices and unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel. The majority of those questioned, "stated they served in military intelligence, electronic surveillance intercept and or explosive ordinance units." Another part of the investigation has resulted in the detention and arrests of dozens of Israelis at American mall kiosks, where they’ve been selling toys called Puzzle Car and Zoom Copter. Investigators suspect a front. Shortly after The New York Times and Washington Post reported the Israeli detentions last months, the carts began vanishing. Zoom Copter’s Web page says, "We are aware of the situation caused by thousands of mall carts being closed at the last minute. This in no way reflects the quality of the toy or its salability. The problem lies in the operators’ business policies." Why would Israelis spy in and on the U.S.? A general accounting office investigation referred to Israel as country A and said, "According to a U.S. intelligence agency, the government of country A conducts the most aggressive espionage operations against the U.S. of any U.S. ally." A defense intelligence report said Israel has a voracious appetite for information and said, "the Israelis are motivated by strong survival instincts which dictate every possible facet of their political and economical policies. It aggressively collects military and industrial technology and the U.S. is a high priority target." The document concludes: "Israel possesses the resources and technical capability to achieve its collection objectives." (END VIDEO CLIP) A spokesman for the Israeli embassy here in Washington issued a denial saying that any suggestion that Israelis are spying in or on the U.S. is "simply not true." There are other things to consider. And in the days ahead, we’ll take a look at the U.S. phone system and law enforcement’s methods for wiretaps. And an investigation that both have been compromised by our friends overseas. HUME: Carl, what about this question of advanced knowledge of what was going to happen on 9/11? How clear are investigators that some Israeli agents may have known something? CAMERON: It’s very explosive information, obviously, and there’s a great deal of evidence that they say they have collected – none of it necessarily conclusive. It’s more when they put it all together. A bigger question, they say, is how could they not have know? Almost a direct quote. HUME: Going into the fact that they were spying on some Arabs, right? CAMERON: Correct. HUME: All right, Carl, thanks very much. Content and Programming Copyright 2001 Fox News Network, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2001 eMediaMillWorks, Inc. (f/k/a Federal Document Clearing House, Inc.), which takes sole responsibility for the accuracy of the transcription. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material except for the user’s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon Fox News Network, Inc.’s and eMediaMillWorks, Inc.’s copyrights or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

Response:

Question:

With 10 users go ahead and take Great Plains off the list.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks to Alan and Peter. We have a 10 concurrent user licence and sometimes need more. How many users do you need in the system? If it is one or two, Great Plains has a pricing structure for their Dynamics package that may work for you. It would be more expensive but would probably give you more features and definitely give you a longer life with the same package as your business grows. Alan we are currently using Sage’s Business Works accounting package for our 40 employee company. Sage has been promising to release a new 32 bit version for centuries now. I’m getting tired of waiting for features I know I can get with competing package called Business Vision 32. Does anyone know anything about Business Vision? Are there other packages in this price range (~$200 per module as I recall)? Thanks in advance.

Response:

BusinessVision 32 is NOT modular, save for an add-on Multi-Currency module. You get 19 or so modules in the program whether you need them or not. The price is attractive for the value, especially if you will use most of the modules. Feel free to E-mail me if you want more info on BV32.

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Thanks to Alan and Peter. We have a 10 concurrent user licence and sometimes need more.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many users do you need in the system? If it is one or two, Great Plains has a pricing structure for their Dynamics package that may work for you. It would be more expensive but would probably give you more features and definitely give you a longer life with the same package as your business grows. Alan we are currently using Sage’s Business Works accounting package for our 40 employee company. Sage has been promising to release a new 32 bit version for centuries now. I’m getting tired of waiting for features I know I can get with competing package called Business Vision 32. Does anyone know anything about Business Vision? Are there other packages in this price range (~$200 per module as I recall)? Thanks in advance.

Response:

we are currently using Sage’s Business Works accounting package for our 40 employee company. Sage has been promising to release a new 32 bit version for centuries now. I’m getting tired of waiting for features I know I can get with competing package called Business Vision 32. Does anyone know anything about Business Vision? Are there other packages in this price range (~$200 per module as I recall)? Thanks in advance.

Response:

How many users do you need in the system? If it is one or two, Great Plains has a pricing structure for their Dynamics package that may work for you. It would be more expensive but would probably give you more features and definitely give you a longer life with the same package as your business grows. Alan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we are currently using Sage’s Business Works accounting package for our 40 employee company. Sage has been promising to release a new 32 bit version for centuries now. I’m getting tired of waiting for features I know I can get with competing package called Business Vision 32. Does anyone know anything about Business Vision? Are there other packages in this price range (~$200 per module as I recall)? Thanks in advance.

Response:

Question:

First off, I’d like to thank those of you who took the time to send me personal e-mail v- it really helps My wife made it through the second day post-chemo, round one – session one, without to musch of a problem. Friday she started to experience the nausea and today it’s the fatigue thing. Supportive medication can only go so far – I know that, but she’s having a hard time with it. She also feels that it would be in her best interest to drop out of college, or at least drop her accounting class, until she’s done with the chemo. It’s taking just about everything she has to get through work, and the prospect of going to class for another five hours . . . ? Personally, I think it’s a wise move, but she has to be sure that’s what SHE wants to do (apparently, this is one of the most important classes she needs for her degree; it also lays the foundation for her CPA). She has the home study books for the course, but she admits that learning from books is not the same as formal instruction. Other than that, things are going prett good. It appears that my latest episode of cluster headaches is coming to an end – knock on wood (brought on, no doubt, by the stress of all this). Sure will make it easier to help my wife We’ve kinda started a mental countdown to when her hair starts to fall out . . . let’s see . . . 7 days and counting ? 8-D BTW, anyone know where I can pick up one of those rainbow colored afro wigs? Yes, I have a very warped sense of humor . . . Dusty

Response:

She also feels that it would be in her best interest to drop out of college, or at least drop her accounting class, until she’s done with the chemo. It’s taking just about everything she has to get through work, and the prospect of going to class for another five hours . . . ? Personally, I think it’s a wise move, but she has to be sure that’s what SHE wants to do (apparently, this is one of the most important classes she needs for her degree; it also lays the foundation for her CPA). She has the home study books for the course, but she admits that learning from books is not the same as formal instruction.

While it’s often wise to continue to keep day-to-day activities as normally as possible, adding chemo to the equation is a big factor, as you are learning. And as you said, SHE should be the one to decide, and your total support is essential. However, at times, she may need YOU to make a decision, if she feels that her choice to stop school for a while may make her feel like she’s letting you down. So my own advice would be for you to look for those signs of "over-doing-it" and encourage her to take a break from studies for a while if it’s a good idea. Let her know that you support her continuance with studies, but you are understanding that a change could be a good thing as well. After she decides, lavish her with support and encouragement that she did indeed make the right choice. After all, any decision she makes will be the right one, especially if it’s to spend more time taking care of herself and more time for you two to be together… Other than that, things are going prett good. It appears that my latest episode of cluster headaches is coming to an end – knock on wood (brought on, no doubt, by the stress of all this). Sure will make it easier to help my wife

GOOD! Just don’t knock on wood with your head! We’ve kinda started a mental countdown to when her hair starts to fall out . . . let’s see . . . 7 days and counting ? 8-D

Was it you who thought about shaving your own head?!?! Might as well have fun with it all… BTW, anyone know where I can pick up one of those rainbow colored afro wigs? Yes, I have a very warped sense of humor . . .

Humor is still the best medicine. I believe that. Dave

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Question:

Please help! I’m a final year accounting student working on a dissertation on the subject of creative financial accounting. Anyone with information on this area of accounting, please let me know. Truly appreciated

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You’d probably get better responses from a federal prison… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please help! I’m a final year accounting student working on a dissertation on the subject of creative financial accounting. Anyone with information on this area of accounting, please let me know. Truly appreciated

Response:

A study of Hollywood (pronounced Holly Weird) accounting practices is a start – Movies/TV shows that gross millions, actors/esses who were to get x% of the net profits found that the movie/tv show never made a dime. The accounting practices of Microsoft and other software development companies would be interesting. A certain company that competes head to head with IBM shows new sales, yet, in actual fact, it is giving away one of its products when contracts are renewed. Then there are the book to bill problems (more of a semi-conductor manufacturer’s problem). The accounting practices of computer outsourcing firms is also interesting – the way they bill for CPU, disk space, tape mounts, etc. You might think they got their billing ideas from lawyers (who somehow are able to have more billable hours in a month than there are hours in the month). Hospital & Doctor billing is also interesting accounting: How one can take a $0.001 tongue depressor and charge $2.00. how one doctor can ask three others to review tests, and all four then bill as if they were on the case full time. I’m not an accountant. I am a systems programmer who has to deal with accounting for resource usage of systems. And, I am involved in taking care of my in-laws in a nursing home. So I did not make up any of these things, I mention them from direct personal experience. Regards, Steve Thompson OSP LLC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please help! I’m a final year accounting student working on a dissertation on the subject of creative financial accounting. Anyone with information on this area of accounting, please let me know. Truly appreciated

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A UK book may be of use to you – Creative Accounting by Ian Griffith (try amazon.co.uk) lots of fun from a journalist who wrote it about 10 years ago – there was a later second edition. My (signed) copy is packed away at present due to decorating. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please help! I’m a final year accounting student working on a dissertation on the subject of creative financial accounting. Anyone with information on this area of accounting, please let me know. Truly appreciated

Response:

A recent issue of Upgrade–or is it Upstart magazine–has an article on creative accting used by hightech companies. I got a copy from the mag’s website. Bobby – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A study of Hollywood (pronounced Holly Weird) accounting practices is a start – Movies/TV shows that gross millions, actors/esses who were to get x% of the net profits found that the movie/tv show never made a dime. The accounting practices of Microsoft and other software development companies would be interesting. A certain company that competes head to head with IBM shows new sales, yet, in actual fact, it is giving away one of its products when contracts are renewed. Then there are the book to bill problems (more of a semi-conductor manufacturer’s problem). The accounting practices of computer outsourcing firms is also interesting – the way they bill for CPU, disk space, tape mounts, etc. You might think they got their billing ideas from lawyers (who somehow are able to have more billable hours in a month than there are hours in the month). Hospital & Doctor billing is also interesting accounting: How one can take a $0.001 tongue depressor and charge $2.00. how one doctor can ask three others to review tests, and all four then bill as if they were on the case full time. I’m not an accountant. I am a systems programmer who has to deal with accounting for resource usage of systems. And, I am involved in taking care of my in-laws in a nursing home. So I did not make up any of these things, I mention them from direct personal experience. Regards, Steve Thompson OSP LLC Please help! I’m a final year accounting student working on a dissertation on the subject of creative financial accounting. Anyone with information on this area of accounting, please let me know. Truly appreciated Sr. Consultant OSP LLC Steve Thompson OSP LLC HTML Mail 147 N. Pearl St. Work: 330/678-7810 Kent Netscape Conference Address OH Netscape Conference DLS Server 44240-2219 Additional Information: Last Name Thompson First Name Steve Version 2.1

Response:

Question:

Hi, I was just reading about some sort of training place that Arthur Andersen sends its people to. Has anyone been through this? What is it like? How long does it last? I hope to become employed by Arthur Andersen by next year and would appreciate any comments. PS: Do the other four big CPA firms have a similar program? Thanks

Response:

It’s incredible, just like a college campus. Last time I was there (1989) they could board about 1600 people. I jumped over to another Big 8 firm and they sent us to hotels with big and nice conference facilities in AZ and TX (Bush stayed at the Houstonian there while I was there). I saw 2 other Big 8 firms at these hotels. At the time, nobody else had their own campus besides Uncle Art. They all provided great training, but AA’s training was still an order of a magnitude better. Hi, I was just reading about some sort of training place that Arthur Andersen sends its people to. Has anyone been through this? What is it like? How long does it last? I hope to become employed by Arthur Andersen by next year and would appreciate any comments. PS: Do the other four big CPA firms have a similar program? Thanks

David M. Bialick, CPA Disclaimer: This is not professional advice unless you’ve signed my engagement letter. Tax & Accounting, MYOB Accounting Pages at: http://www.dmbcpa.com

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Question:

I thought I heard the phone ringing but it was just saying: They have other methods of extracting money from you. The typical recruit will be a married man with children. When you attend the conference, the senior females in the group will offer something you can’t resist. This will be used as leverage to obtain money from you.

You mean CHEESE????? OH MY – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Finally. Some personality.

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Failure to comply with our instructions will result in this group being the subject of a very large recursive cascade.

I suppose that might be mildly interesting (stiffled yawn) But if you want to generate some traffic you could always ask if it tax allowable — David York

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Question:

Aust Accounting Std said profit from construction should be booked on a percentage completion. The percentage completed can be calculated on a actual to est total cost basis (that is what I am using) The estimated cost to complete can be obtain from BOQ or actual cost incurred plus engineer’s estimated cost to complete. How can I be sure the engineer’s estimated cost is reasonable. Is there any other methods that can be used to determine the percentage of completion other that physical verfication and invoicing method. Is there any good books about project management I can get my hands on

Response:

You do not say whether the engineer is a thrid party. If so, I would rely on what he says. Otherwise, you should at any progress payments being made in line with the estimates. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aust Accounting Std said profit from construction should be booked on a percentage completion. The percentage completed can be calculated on a actual to est total cost basis (that is what I am using) The estimated cost to complete can be obtain from BOQ or actual cost incurred plus engineer’s estimated cost to complete. How can I be sure the engineer’s estimated cost is reasonable. Is there any other methods that can be used to determine the percentage of completion other that physical verfication and invoicing method. Is there any good books about project management I can get my hands on

Response:

I was reading your post, and I was wondering, what do you mean by third party? Who would be the second party? Thanks, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You do not say whether the engineer is a thrid party. If so, I would rely on what he says. Otherwise, you should at any progress payments being made in line with the estimates. Aust Accounting Std said profit from construction should be booked on a percentage completion. The percentage completed can be calculated on a actual to est total cost basis (that is what I am using) The estimated cost to complete can be obtain from BOQ or actual cost incurred plus engineer’s estimated cost to complete. How can I be sure the engineer’s estimated cost is reasonable. Is there any other methods that can be used to determine the percentage of completion other that physical verfication and invoicing method. Is there any good books about project management I can get my hands on

Response:

Question:

Three lawyers and three accountants were about to board a train. The accountants watched in awe as the three lawyers bought only a single ticket amongst them. The accountants queried the lawyers on how they intended to pull this off and were advised to wait and watch. On boarding the train the three lawyers shoehorned themselves into the washroom and when the conductor collecting tickets knocked on the door passed their single ticket under the bottom. Much wiser on the return trip the accountants bought a single ticket and were again left in awe as the lawyers boarded the train with no ticket all. Again their queries were answered with the advice to wait and watch. The three accountants squeezed themselves into the washroom and the lawyers did the same in the washroom across the hall. When the accountants had closed and locked their door one lawyer slipped out of his washroom and knocked on the accountant’s door asking "tickets please". If you are planning a fight in court listen to your lawyer not your accountant. If you plan a fight with the IRS you are nuts.

Response:

We have been dealing with this exact subject for about a year now on the 206 we bought between two of us (intending to get 4 owner long term). We have learned a lot in the past year. A few of the things we have learned are: 1) The only way to avoid liability in an airplane ownership is to not own one. Period. It is a risk you take when you purchase the plane whether it be alone or with other owners (I am particularly avoiding the word partners).

But you can manage the liability and reduce your exposure by taking some prudent steps. 2) The idea of a corporation may provide some protection (that is in debate between every lawyer I speak with), but not complete. As an owner, did you ever turn a wrench on the aircraft. Change the oil, the spark plugs, fill a tire. Guess what you can now be held liable. Did you ever make a decision about maintenance (then carried out by you A&P), guess what, you are now liable. An attorney is going to find a way to get to every pocket he/she can.

An attorney, representing the plaintiff, will of course look for any person or entity that has exposure because of ownership, negligence or legal fault. That does not mean that everyone connected with the ownership of the plane has to stumble along with the anticipation of being named as defendant in every suit that might be brought. 3) The main reason the corporation may not protect you is that the corporation may not be valid. One thing we learned big time is that what an attorney believes is a valid corporation, may be so from a legal sense. All the papers are filed, you keep all the proper legal records, hold shareholders meetings, etc.. That all means absolutely nothing to an accountant. To an accountant, the corporation has to have a "profit motive" for it to be valid. That is not to say that you have to turn a profit, you just have to have a profit motive, and it must be valid. It is very clear when a corp is just there for a group of individuals to have a hobby around. Once the accounting world (and the IRS) invalidate your corp, you don’t have the protection of it.

That is totally incorrect. Neither an accountant nor the IRS can invalidate a corporation. They can deny certain favorable tax treatments because of a non-profit operation, but that will not invalidate the corporation. We are yet to find an aviation-lawyer-accountant who can put this all together and find a way to do it well. If you can create a valid "profit motive", and have it hold up, then you have a chance at keeping the corp alive in the event of a law suit. Ultimately, I still want to find a lawyer/accountant that has actually defended someone in this situation and WON. Then we can all learn how it worked in at least one instance. Until then, all ideas are pure speculation.

You aren’t going to find such an attorney, because you are starting from a premise that is incorrect. A validly formed corporation is just that, a corporation. 4) Someone commented on insurance companies not paying if one of the owners is drunk when they bend the plane. Most good insurance companies will not deny coverage if a FAR is broken. They will pay out to the corp. But then they may subrogate to the individual that was negligent. If you insurance will deny payment to the corp because one of the owners broke a FAR, get rid of the insurance.

An insurance company can deny coverage to the OWNER of the plane, for property damage or to the PILOT of the plane for injury or death because of the violation of the FARs, they cannot deny coverage to another party that is neither an owner or operator. If you bend a plane, it is very rare that you did not break a FAR somewhere along the line. The only question is one of negligence or not. This is question I ask of every prospective insurance carrier. Please don’t flame me if you dissagree with the above info. All I am doing is giving the net the benefit of what we have learned through numerous lawyers and accountants.

I would suggest you ask some more questions and seek out some other parties to ask. I don’t think the information you have been given is correct, or perhaps it was but you misunderstood what was said. In eithre case, I would not proceed under the beliefs that you have. Wes

Response:

Does incorporation mean that, other than the personal liability of the pilot, who may be at fault (ie. whoever was operating the airplane at the time of the incident and whose actions may be judged causative), only the assets of the corporation can be attached? The personal assets of the other partners are protected……unless, I suppose, they could be judged personally negligent in some way?

A corporation is a creature of the State. It is formed by statute and as long as it is validly created, it is a separate person in the eyes of the law. The corporation has assets and those assets are available to satisfy any judgment that might be granted against the corporation. An individual shareholder or director of the corporation has no more personal liability for actions of the corporation than you would have as a shareholder of Ford if there was a judgment entered against Ford for a faulty car design. How well do such corporations stand up in court? A previous posting said that in court any such corporation could be picked apart if the corporation did not have a profit motive (I guess by that it meant: if the corporation was established just to avoid liability.),

There are a variety of reasons for formation of a corporation: Perpetual life, ease of transfer of ownership, tax savings, LIMITED LIABILITY OF THE SHAREHOLDERS, etc. There is absolutely nothing that requires a corporation to be formed for a profit motive, except perhaps the ability to deduct certain expenses of the corporation on your tax return. members could be held personally liable if it could be established that they had had anything to do with maintenance of the aircraft, etc.

That is a very gray area. What maintenance did they do? Was that maintenance that was required to be performed by an A/P or was it simply preventive maintenance? Was the maintenance or lack thereof the contributing factor in the claim? As a general rule, no, the partner working on the plain and doing preventive maintenance would not lose the protection of the corporation. That presumes, however, that certain factors don’t enter into the equation. If the partner were to, for instance, change oil and forget to wire the filter on, put it on incorrectly and then leave it for the next person to use… and that next person failed to do a per-flight…. well, you get the idea, but it would still fall on the corporation and the individual who was PIC. Wes

Response:

Larry, as both an airplane owner and an attorney, I can give you the following advise, which is the same that I give clients in my office, and exactly the same advise that I take and use myself. 1. The only, repeat ONLY way to avoid personal liability for the acts of another is to have the plane owned by a corporation. Corporate ownership protects the shareholders and directors from personal liability except in very specific cases in which they have actual involvment in the claim, such as piloting the plane or as a director allowing a clearly intoxicated person to operate the corporate plane. — contd. —-

Wes – You have been generous with your expertrise. Let me have another freebie: Does incorporation mean that, other than the personal liability of the pilot, who may be at fault (ie. whoever was operating the airplane at the time of the incident and whose actions may be judged causative), only the assets of the corporation can be attached? The personal assets of the other partners are protected……unless, I suppose, they could be judged personally negligent in some way? How well do such corporations stand up in court? A previous posting said that in court any such corporation could be picked apart if the corporation did not have a profit motive (I guess by that it meant: if the corporation was established just to avoid liability.), and other members could be held personally liable if it could be established that they had had anything to do with maintenance of the aircraft, etc. OK, That was TWO questions. I’ll try not to abuse your professional generosity. Joiner Cartwright, Jr. Houston, Texas

Response:

We have been dealing with this exact subject for about a year now on the 206 we bought between two of us (intending to get 4 owner long term). We have learned a lot in the past year. A few of the things we have learned are: 1) The only way to avoid liability in an airplane ownership is to not own one. Period. It is a risk you take when you purchase the plane whether it be alone or with other owners (I am particularly avoiding the word partners). 2) The idea of a corporation may provide some protection (that is in debate between every lawyer I speak with), but not complete. As an owner, did you ever turn a wrench on the aircraft. Change the oil, the spark plugs, fill a tire. Guess what you can now be held liable. Did you ever make a decision about maintenance (then carried out by you A&P), guess what, you are now liable. An attorney is going to find a way to get to every pocket he/she can. 3) The main reason the corporation may not protect you is that the corporation may not be valid. One thing we learned big time is that what an attorney believes is a valid corporation, may be so from a legal sense. All the papers are filed, you keep all the proper legal records, hold shareholders meetings, etc.. That all means absolutely nothing to an accountant. To an accountant, the corporation has to have a "profit motive" for it to be valid. That is not to say that you have to turn a profit, you just have to have a profit motive, and it must be valid. It is very clear when a corp is just there for a group of individuals to have a hobby around. Once the accounting world (and the IRS) invalidate your corp, you don’t have the protection of it. We are yet to find an aviation-lawyer-accountant who can put this all together and find a way to do it well. If you can create a valid "profit motive", and have it hold up, then you have a chance at keeping the corp alive in the event of a law suit. Ultimately, I still want to find a lawyer/accountant that has actually defended someone in this situation and WON. Then we can all learn how it worked in at least one instance. Until then, all ideas are pure speculation. 4) Someone commented on insurance companies not paying if one of the owners is drunk when they bend the plane. Most good insurance companies will not deny coverage if a FAR is broken. They will pay out to the corp. But then they may subrogate to the individual that was negligent. If you insurance will deny payment to the corp because one of the owners broke a FAR, get rid of the insurance. If you bend a plane, it is very rare that you did not break a FAR somewhere along the line. The only question is one of negligence or not. This is question I ask of every prospective insurance carrier. Please don’t flame me if you dissagree with the above info. All I am doing is giving the net the benefit of what we have learned through numerous lawyers and accountants. Regards, Joel Larner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California. Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability? I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own.

Response:

Well, IANAL, but when I bought into my current airplane partnership, the original owner of the plane and I visited a local lawyer (NY state) to check into a corporation of some sort. He convinced us that this wasn’t a great advantage and probably not worth the initial cost and ongoing paperwork to keep it a recognized corporation. I was concerned about getting sued and losing my home, investments, etc. According to this lawyer, all of the assets of significance that I have are immune from a judgement.

I would strongly dispute that position. He said that my 401K and pension are untouchable for some reason that I can’t now recall, and my home is untouchable since I own it jointly with my wife.

The 401K and Pension are protected under the Insurance Law, but once you start to draw the income from them, the income stream can be reached to satisfy a judgement, and if you make a large contribution to try and shield your assets, that can be overturned. As to the house, that is dead wrong. A filed judgment will attach to any piece of real estate that you might own. While they can’t make you sell it to satisfy the judgment under CPLR Sec. 5206, the judgment will attach and will remain for 10 years, and can be extended for an additional 10 years by filing a simple form. When the house is sold, they get paid before anyone else. All that was at risk was the plane iself, but only if they could show that both me and my partner were liable for whatever had happened, and my truck which is in my name alone.

If you own the plane and the plane goes down, you are going to get sued, either by the estate of your partner, the injured passenger or his estate, the injured person on the ground or his estate, or even your partner if he survives. Win, lose or draw, you are going to be taught a very expensive lesson. Any attorneys out there familiar with NY state law who wish to support or dispute this advice? I’m certainly hoping it was correct!

You might want to contact an aviation lawyer in New York and run that past him, or her. I am both a pilot and an attorney and a member of the Lawyers-Pilots Bar Association and was a member of the AOPA pre-paid legal panel and the advice you received is not, IMHO, correct. Wes

Response:

Larry, as both an airplane owner and an attorney, I can give you the following advise, which is the same that I give clients in my office, and exactly the same advise that I take and use myself. 1. The only, repeat ONLY way to avoid personal liability for the acts of another is to have the plane owned by a corporation. Corporate ownership protects the shareholders and directors from personal liability except in very specific cases in which they have actual involvment in the claim, such as piloting the plane or as a director allowing a clearly intoxicated person to operate the corporate plane. 2. Corporations can be formed in any state. Each state has it’s own rules and regulations and tax laws. The physical location of the assets of the corporation are not important, you can incorporate in any state. 3. Delaware is the most friendly in terms of "Corporate presence" in that they have no taxes and minor fees. A Delaware corporation will shield you from liability and help you avoid taxes on the purchase of the plane. Now, there are states that attempt to tax the plane because it is based on an airport in that state. As far as I can tell, there is no authority to tax the assets of a corporation simply because they are based in that state. They can, of course, tax the corporation for business activities carried on in that state, but otherwise, I would fight like a scalded cat to avoid paying taxes simply because the plane is based there. 4. I would suggest you do the following: a. Form a Delaware Corporation through one of the service companies in Delaware. My experience with the Delaware Registry has not been good in that they don’t follow through on their responsibilities to the corporation. I much perfer the people at Delaware Intercorp. They have a webpage at: http://www.delawareintercorp.com. You can form the corporation without the aid of an attorney. b. I would limit the number of shares to the number of partners that you intend to have, at the maximum. If you plan on having no more than 4, then order the corporation with 4 shares, or 5 if you want. If you have no additional shares available, you can always tell a potential partner that they can’t get in, or amend and add more shares if you change your mind. c. Have your attorney draft up a shareholders agreement, and make it part of the corporate minutes and by-laws. You can, then, take care of such things as how you handle someone who wants out, what to do in the event of a dispute, what to do if one of the partners dies, or one of the real biggies, what happens if one of the partners gets a divorce. This is an important document and should be drafted by someone with aviation experience. You can call AOPA and ask them for the name of an experience aviation attorney in your area. Hope this helps. Oh, and forget the insurance will protect me nonsense, it won’t and it won’t protect you from being dragged into the litigation and made to defend yourself if one of the others gets into a claim situation. Wes

Response:

We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California. Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability? I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own. Insurance is your best protection against third party claims.

Yes, perhaps I’m just being paranoid, but what if the damage caused by one of the other co-owners is enormous; say s/he crash lands into a school bus full of children for example, or a building full of people. Perhaps an autopsy reveals there is was alcohol involved, which is clearly a willful violation of the Federal Aviation Regulations. The insurance policy specifically denies coverage for willful violations of the FARs, so what are the families of the children going to do? They’re going to sue the other co-owners, especially if they happen to have deep pockets, would they not? They would have no recourse against the insurance company. And, if the pilot had little means, they’d look for compensation elsewhere, to wit the April 1996 crash of a Cessna Cardinal in Cheyenne, Wyo., that killed 7-year-old Jessica Dubroff: http://www.avweb.com/articles/legaleag.html . "Jessica’s surviving relatives have now sued Cessna and Avco, the companies that built them 20 years earlier — along with the pilot, the owner of the plane, and 100 "Does," or defendants to be named later." I can control my behavior, but I can’t control the behavior of my co-owners, but I’d still have to defend myself without the protection of insurance. Regarding liability amoungst co-owners. Consider an indemnification agreement, whereby each co-owner agrees to indemnify and hold the other co-owners harmless for the negligent acts of a particular co-owners

By all means. But, would such an agreement be binding on the families of the children in the example above and prevent them from filing suit against me? Wouldn’t a "hold harmless" agreement just preclude the co-owners from suing each other? What I’m considering is putting title to my interest in the aircraft into the name of my significant-other who has "very shallow pockets". Then getting her to sign a blank Bill of Sale, so that I can transfer title without further input from her when that time comes. Is this realistic? She won’t be able to encumber the aircraft without the consent of the other co-owners, so that’s not an issue. It seems this arrangement would protect me from any suit in which I was not flying the aircraft. Of course, I’be a named insured on the policy, so even this measure might not be sufficient to protect me from the mistakes of my co-owners. It is my understanding that a incorporating the co-ownership would not afford significant protection from a tort. Thank you for your thoughtful response. Best regards, Larry Dighera There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking. Sir Joshua Reynolds

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We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California. Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability? I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own.

Response:

We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California. Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability? I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own.

Insurance is your best protection against third party claims. Regarding liability amoungst co-owners. Consider an indemnification agreement, whereby each co-owner agrees to indemnify and hold the other co-owners harmless for the negligent acts of a particular co-owners Regards, Phillip R. Hurwitz, Esq. Rochester NY DISCLAIMER: The above is offered for the purposes of discussion only. To pursue your matter, contact an attorney in your community. To reply, remove "123" from the reply address

Response:

We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California. Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability? I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own.

Of course, each state’s laws are different. Between during a seminar on the subject here in Michigan, several aviaiton attorneys highly recommended that you incorporate rather than form a partnership. Of course, you must maintain the corporation in all ways, such as keeping the required records, holding shareholder meetings, etc.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are forming a co-ownership arrangement of an aircraft to be based at John Wayne airport in Santa Ana, California. Can anyone give us advice on the best method of limiting exposure to tort liability? I’m willing to accept responsibility for my own actions, but don’t want to be held responsible, nor have to defend myself against, the results of, the actions of one of the other co-owners, if s/he should be involved in an accident while flying the aircraft we co-own. Insurance is your best protection against third party claims. Yes, perhaps I’m just being paranoid, but what if the damage caused by one of the other co-owners is enormous; say s/he crash lands into a school bus full of children for example, or a building full of people. Perhaps an autopsy reveals there is was alcohol involved, which is clearly a willful violation of the Federal Aviation Regulations. The insurance policy specifically denies coverage for willful violations of the FARs, so what are the families of the children going to do? They’re going to sue the other co-owners, especially if they happen to have deep pockets, would they not? They would have no recourse against the insurance company. And, if the pilot had little means, they’d look for compensation elsewhere, to wit the April 1996 crash of a Cessna Cardinal in Cheyenne, Wyo., that killed 7-year-old Jessica Dubroff: http://www.avweb.com/articles/legaleag.html . "Jessica’s surviving relatives have now sued Cessna and Avco, the companies that built them 20 years earlier — along with the pilot, the owner of the plane, and 100 "Does," or defendants to be named later." I can control my behavior, but I can’t control the behavior of my co-owners, but I’d still have to defend myself without the protection of insurance. Regarding liability amoungst co-owners. Consider an indemnification agreement, whereby each co-owner agrees to indemnify and hold the other co-owners harmless for the negligent acts of a particular co-owners By all means. But, would such an agreement be binding on the families of the children in the example above and prevent them from filing suit against me? Wouldn’t a "hold harmless" agreement just preclude the co-owners from suing each other? What I’m considering is putting title to my interest in the aircraft into the name of my significant-other who has "very shallow pockets". Then getting her to sign a blank Bill of Sale, so that I can transfer title without further input from her when that time comes. Is this realistic? She won’t be able to encumber the aircraft without the consent of the other co-owners, so that’s not an issue. It seems this arrangement would protect me from any suit in which I was not flying the aircraft. Of course, I’be a named insured on the policy, so even this measure might not be sufficient to protect me from the mistakes of my co-owners. It is my understanding that a incorporating the co-ownership would not afford significant protection from a tort.

Well, IANAL, but when I bought into my current airplane partnership, the original owner of the plane and I visited a local lawyer (NY state) to check into a corporation of some sort. He convinced us that this wasn’t a great advantage and probably not worth the initial cost and ongoing paperwork to keep it a recognized corporation. I was concerned about getting sued and losing my home, investments, etc. According to this lawyer, all of the assets of significance that I have are immune from a judgement. He said that my 401K and pension are untouchable for some reason that I can’t now recall, and my home is untouchable since I own it jointly with my wife. All that was at risk was the plane iself, but only if they could show that both me and my partner were liable for whatever had happened, and my truck which is in my name alone. Any attorneys out there familiar with NY state law who wish to support or dispute this advice? I’m certainly hoping it was correct! Matt

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