Question:

Lou Gerstner went to chaminade-hs.org, a leading producer of pope-thugs like Senator Al Damnatio! But this is how you pope-thugs molest the truth! This is the Jesuit Casuistry you were trained in. Since Protestant America values Reason, you need your own Universities nd schools where you can teach Jesuit Casuistry and Molesting Mafioso Thuggery instead. No wonder, when your falsely educated pope-nazi scum entered corporate America, they destroyed the pillar of trust on which it was built! ===== Dred Scott written by Catholik Roger Taney. John Wilkes Booth and most of his team were Catholiks (Georgetown Cabal). Guilds were first labor unions created by popes to supress Germany. Joe McCarthy was Catholik. JFK got into Vietnam because pope wanted. Catholiks are least educated Americans. Catholiks shoot Chiapas evangelicals. Hitler was baptised Catholik. Patton prevented hanging of Nazi Pius so Catholik Donovan could use Nazis as basis for CIA. Abortion is Catholik trick to overpopulate themselves. New Orleans was largest Confederate City was Catholik. Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos – Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com

Response:

What would Peat, Marwick, Mitchell, Young, Anderson, and all those other wonderful old Scottish Presbytrian accountants say when they see how the mafioso catholics have overrun their former profession? Lou Gerstner went to the same catholic high school as Al Damnato! Of course, all they have reduced the CPA profession to is Jesuit Casuistry. That is how they were taught. Did you see Giuliani ever prosecute any catholics on Wall Street? But then, how come all the scandals with mafia controlled firms happened after him? Because he used his job to muscle in the mafia! The pope is the mafia. America has now reduced its economy to third-world mafia-fascist standards by turning over our corporations to sleazy catholics like Carly Fiorina and Lou Gerstner. ===== Dred Scott written by Catholik Roger Taney. John Wilkes Booth and most of his team were Catholiks (Georgetown Cabal). Guilds were first labor unions created by popes to supress Germany. Joe McCarthy was Catholik. JFK got into Vietnam because pope wanted. Catholiks are least educated Americans. Catholiks shoot Chiapas evangelicals. Hitler was baptised Catholik. Patton prevented hanging of Nazi Pius so Catholik Donovan could use Nazis as basis for CIA. Abortion is Catholik trick to overpopulate themselves. New Orleans was largest Confederate City was Catholik. Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial – First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com

Response:

Question:

If you still want the benefits of the vigorous boil (better hot break and hop utilization) without having to collect that much runoff, just add some plain water to the kettle, either at the start of the boil, or partway through. FWIW, if you’re really losing 2 gallons in 60 minutes, I do think you could back the burner down a little more too…

You know, he could place a LID over the kettle to stop the evaporation. Maybe just Crack it.  and he won’t lose as much if he’s worried about it… I try to get 7+ gal, from the sparge and boil to 5+ somewhere round 1.5-2.0 hours. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —

Response:

Just out of curiousity, do you have have 7.5 gallons at the start of the boil or is that when you start heating? Just wondering, you may actually be loosing 1/4 to 1/2 gallon in the time it takes to bring it up to a boil. I usually leave my kettle about 90% covered until I get to within 10 degrees of boiling, then leave it all the way off. Cheers! – Jeff

Response:

Howdy Jim, I get a good boil off too. Wonder if it’s altitude related. Here in Denver, water boils right around 200f. That would require proportionally less flame than at lower altitudes, I suppose. And that gets me wondering if barometric pressure and humidity play any role in boil off rates…

To a good first approximation neither will affect boiloff rates.  The amount of *energy* it takes to boil off some water, and the temperature at which boiling occurs, are not linearly related.  The humidity is less of a factor.  If I dig back in my old physical chemistry books I can find more, if you care. –arne DISCLAIMER:  These opinions and statements are those of the author and do not represent any views or positions of the Hewlett-Packard Co.

Response:

Good point, Jeff – you surmize correctly. I’m starting out with 7.5 gallons of wort, but I’m not sure how much I lose before teh boil actually begins. However, like you, I also put a lid on the keg (slightly ajar) ubtil I get close to boiling. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Just out of curiousity, do you have have 7.5 gallons at the start of the boil or is that when you start heating? Just wondering, you may actually be loosing 1/4 to 1/2 gallon in the time it takes to bring it up to a boil. I usually leave my kettle about 90% covered until I get to within 10 degrees of boiling, then leave it all the way off. Cheers! – Jeff

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I have a King Cooker.  I usually start out with 7.8 gallons to end up with around 5.3 gallons in a 2 hour boil. — Robin The Poconos

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?

Response:

I also use a King Kooker and typically lose 1.25 gal / hr.  My boiling goal is to boil as vigorous as possible without boiling over.  If I were you, I would check the calibration of your kettle and do not simmer your wort. —–ActiveX

| I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker | burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to | evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of | wort. | | I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly | vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up | simmering instead of boiling. | | Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?

Response:

Howdy Jim, I get a good boil off too. Wonder if it’s altitude related. Here in Denver, water boils right around 200f. That would require proportionally less flame than at lower altitudes, I suppose. And that gets me wondering if barometric pressure and humidity play any role in boil off rates… -Brett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?

Response:

If you still want the benefits of the vigorous boil (better hot break and hop utilization) without having to collect that much runoff, just add some plain water to the kettle, either at the start of the boil, or partway through. FWIW, if you’re really losing 2 gallons in 60 minutes, I do think you could back the burner down a little more too… — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?

Response:

You can also try partially covering the kettle.  I find I can maintain vigerous boil w/ lower heat if the pot is 1/2 or 2/3 covered.  As long as you’re venting some steam, you won’t build up DMS.  Whenever I’ve toured breweries, I’ve always been amazed at how small the kettle vents are. Drew

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you still want the benefits of the vigorous boil (better hot break and hop utilization) without having to collect that much runoff, just add some plain water to the kettle, either at the start of the boil, or partway through.

Response:

FWIW, if you’re really losing 2 gallons in 60 minutes, I do think you could back the burner down a little more too…

Well, last night I started with just over 7.5 gallons in the keg (slightly more than half full), and let it go for an hour at what could best be callled a "modest" boil. It was clearly boiling, but if I had backed off the propane at all it would have reduced to a simmer. Accounting for the half gallon or so left in the kettle and absorbed by the hops (leaf, not pellets!), I figure I lost about two gallons during the boil. What would happen if I left the keg partially covered during the boil so that at least some of the steam condensed and dripped back? Would that effect the hot break or hop utilization? I’m not worried about a boilover since there’s more than enough excess capacity.

Response:

Howdy Jim,

He’s dead, Jim. Sorry, i just had to.  another irrelavant post I know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I get a good boil off too. Wonder if it’s altitude related. Here in Denver, water boils right around 200f. That would require proportionally less flame than at lower altitudes, I suppose. And that gets me wondering if barometric pressure and humidity play any role in boil off rates… -Brett I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?

Response:

That’s about what I koose in my converted keg over the course of an hour.  I don’t understand what the problem is…you know the boiloff rate, you compensate.  Doesn’t really matter what other people get, it’s knowing what your system does. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?

Response:

I’m using a standard converted keg as a boiler with a King Kooker burner. During a 60 minute boil, I lose almost two gallons due to evaporation, which means I have to start out with about 7.5 gallons of wort. I don’t have the burner cranked up so high that the boil is overly vigorous — in fact, if I turned it down very much it would end up simmering instead of boiling. Does this seem excessive, or is it fairly normal?

Response:

Question:

Robinson Burdette Martin Seright & Burrows L.L.P in Lubbock, TX has positions available for in-charge auditors and audit managers.  We offer competitive salaries in a city with a low cost of living.  We are the largest public accounting firm in Lubbock and our audit practice continues to grow.  Our clients are primarily in banking, governmental , and agriculture.  Our firm is a former Coopers and Lybrand office, and we are now a network firm of McGladrey & Pullen.  See our website at www.rbmsb.com for more information. Also, for more information on Lubbock, see http://www.marketlubbock.com/profile.html

Response:

Interest parties should forward resumes to or contact me at

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Robinson Burdette Martin Seright & Burrows L.L.P in Lubbock, TX has positions available for in-charge auditors and audit managers.  We offer competitive salaries in a city with a low cost of living.  We are the largest public accounting firm in Lubbock and our audit practice continues to grow.  Our clients are primarily in banking, governmental , and agriculture.  Our firm is a former Coopers and Lybrand office, and we are now a network firm of McGladrey & Pullen.  See our website at www.rbmsb.com for more information. Also, for more information on Lubbock, see http://www.marketlubbock.com/profile.html

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Question:

My boss came up with this request.  "Do you know where I can get database of zip codes with longitude and latitude ?" US, Canada and maybe Mexico locations would probably be in order. TIA __Stephen

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My boss came up with this request.  "Do you know where I can get database of zip codes with longitude and latitude ?"

What for?  Are you planning to air drop flyers? — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

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No we want to use smart bombs <g. I stopped asking what for questions long ago.  I use to say "You what WHAT?" Products we have done are outside of normal accounting.  We have a Baseball Tournament scheduler that uses Palm Pilots to update scores for internet display in real time. We do a large scale Automotive Aftermartket systems so we may give to a client with 200+ stores a way to solicit  a "winterize package" to all customers who are in the proper regions?  That is purely a guess but that may be just it?  Who knows it could be something completely different? __Stephen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My boss came up with this request.  "Do you know where I can get database of zip codes with longitude and latitude ?" What for?  Are you planning to air drop flyers? — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

Response:

The following came up in a dogpile.com search. http://www.mailerssoftware.com/zd.html There were also several others. — Jim Hudspeth, CPA – http://home.att.net/~jdhcpa/mainpage.html – Washington, USA Associate Member, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

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OK, I had to ask and the reply is that we will put this on a company’s web site for the closest location tool.  tell us your zip code and we will give you the closest location kind of thing. PS. I found lots of sources for US & Canada. __Stephen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My boss came up with this request.  "Do you know where I can get database of zip codes with longitude and latitude ?" What for?  Are you planning to air drop flyers? — Paul A. Thomas, CPA Athens,  Georgia

Response:

OK, I had to ask and the reply is that we will put this on a company’s web site for the closest location tool.  tell us your zip code and we will give you the closest location kind of thing. PS. I found lots of sources for US & Canada.

Is your boss planning to pay someone to do this, or is trying to find a sleazoid way to do this for free? If your boss is willing someone to do this right, there are several companies which do this sort of thing.  The best ones are Vicinity and Etak. If he wants some partially-derriered solution which requires no cash outlay on his part, the Census Bureau has free files with lat/longs on them. Before you buy.

Response:

Try the census bureau home page, they out to have something real close Also, try a yahoo and alta vista search, certainly there are commercially available products – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My boss came up with this request.  "Do you know where I can get database of zip codes with longitude and latitude ?" US, Canada and maybe Mexico locations would probably be in order. TIA __Stephen

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Question:

A better question: should a product advertiser expect to use our image based on a one-off payment. This is about royalties, not salaries. Carl Again the JPC is offering residuals based on a cycle structure – it is not "a one-off payment"

Oh, no, no! The JPC is offering a $500 session fee, and that’s all. I’m surprised you weren’t aware that’s the only guaranteed payment to talent in all of the proposal. And I note you still didn’t answer my question. Carl — "The Republican Party’s idea of diversity is to have executives from different oil companies on their national ticket." – CASalonen Before you buy.

Response:

Nope. An agency does not provide a product it provides a service. A very common distinction when identifying the nature of companys busniess. Your doctor does not sell a product he sells a service. Proctor and Gamble sells a product.  Leo Burnett sells a service. Not my opinion – a business fact.

God, you’re even stupider than Showertoy AND Ignoranus put together! You know, this is the first time that I’ve ever heard a videotape called "a service", which is precisely what the agency folk hand over to the client as the representing the finished product. Hm, maybe we should take Showertoy’s tweezers and hand them over to you, because you should probably go look for those remnants of brain you left all over the Kleenex when you sneezed last… Carl — "The Republican Party’s idea of diversity is to have executives from different oil companies on their national ticket." – CASalonen Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John this very simple but I’ll type slowly – I have always found it to be no coincidence that I am never impressed by the arguments or depth of reasoning shown my people who find it necessary to be patronizing or insulting before they have even stated their opinion. . The issue is how much money do they make when they work -not how much when they don’t. No, the issue is fair compensation in the context of the value and profit-making potential of their creative product to the agency. No, the issue is compensation (NOTE: the deletion of the subjective word ‘fair’) in the context of the supply of actors and the demand for their services by advertisers.  An author who writes one novel, over a weekend perhaps,  that sells millions of copies for his publisher, receives far more in royalties than an author who writes dozens (or who takes years to write one) that never sell. and if ten thousand authors are willing to write the same material for less, how much does that author make?  of course, an author’s sales are quantifiable,

Two authors would not write the same book, …just as two actors would not give the same performance. a commercial actor’s sales are merely claimed (and unproved) by the actor only.

No the commercial actors sales are duly noted by the ad agency that responds with a bigger media buy. Drama Queen — "Intellectuals cause a great deal of trouble trying to do it all with the mind. It is the heart that counts."             — Louise Bogan

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When an actor’s output is the product – such as a movie – the "in-demand" actors does get to participate in the profits. (if the producers agree) But a commericial is not the product but a vehicle for selling a product.

*BRRRRRRAP* Wrong-o, Yeastielittlebeastie! The commercial IS the product the ad agencies are selling to the nice clients! Nice try, and thanks for playing! Here’s a fuckbook, go join the Showertoy in the corner. Can’t miss him. He’s the one with the tweezers in his pants. Carl — "The Republican Party’s idea of diversity is to have executives from different oil companies on their national ticket." – CASalonen Before you buy.

Response:

you are right – only a very stupid actor would a pertectage of the profit -the pencil pusher would make sure profit would never happen – but that doesn’t change the point – if you change the word profit to the phrase "revenue formula" I stand by my point.

What makes you think, in your wildest dreams, that advertisers will agree to sharing revenue with performers in exchange for their services in commercials? The idea is ludicrous. There is a complicated formula for a small profit participation in foreign theatrical vidocassette sales, but there is no way to apply something like that to commercials. If the industry wants to do away with the residuals structure and contineu to work toward a union-free internet-based transmission medium in the not so distant future, what makes you think that any facet of the industry want to allow performers to participate in profits, or begin to hold stock positions in their corporations. I can see them sweating bullets already, all those thousands of commercial actors exercising their stock options and signing their proxies over to union representatives. Yeah, like something like that would ever happen. Nope. An agency does not provide a product it provides a service. A very common distinction when identifying the nature of companys busniess. Your doctor does not sell a product he sells a service. Proctor and Gamble sells a product.  Leo Burnett sells a service. Not my opinion – a business fact.

What is it that they provide? Commercials of all forms. A service industry is one in which I provide a service to you. I pick up your laundry. I clean your house. I drive your car. I serve your meal. Grey sells advertising to advertising. That is their PRODUCT. Advertisers buy the product they create, whether print ad, audiovisual commercial, etc, and then pay to have it exhibited in various media. If you want to see what an advertising agency has done, do you walk around their facilities and watch them providing their "service." No, you ask to see a reel of the products that they have sold to other advertisers that have proved successful. If you hold a 3/4" videocassette of a Dodge Durango commercial, are you holding the product that Dodge’s ad agency has produced for them, or are you holding the service that they have provided to Dodge? Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When an actor’s output is the product – such as a movie – the "in-demand" actors does get to participate in the profits. (if the producers agree There are only a handful of actors who can demand a percentage of a motion picture’s gross revenues. Just to make sure you understand: percentage of the gross is the only meaningful compensation. Studio accounting always ensures that percentages of net revenues amount to zero. Taking a piece of a picture’s back end may sound great, but it is virtually meaningless unless a film’s revenues are stratospheric and there are no reasonable ways for a studio to hide the profits.

you are right – only a very stupid actor would a pertectage of the profit -the pencil pusher would make sure profit would never happen – but that doesn’t change the point – if you change the word profit to the phrase "revenue formula" I stand by my point. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But a commericial is not the product but a vehicle for selling a product. The actors are part of a long list of people that work on the commercial. If they want to participate in the success of the product buy some stock in the company that paid for the commercial. Maybe the actors should ask stock options in lieu of their fee. Then they can really participate. A commercial is a product. The consumer doesn’t buy it; the advertisers do. That is the market for commercials: ADVERTISERS. Perhaps this way of conceptualizing it will help you: Advertisers rent actors performances. Ad agencies compete for advertisers. Advertisers hire ad agencies, buying their services. One product they purchase is commercials extolling what it is that they sell. If the product performs successfully, increasing sales of the advertisers product, they make more use of that product and, like renting a car, pay for additional uses of that product. They only do so if they are benefitting from their purchase of that product. If the product — the commercial — fails expectations, it is dumped and in a brutal but commonplace occurrence, the advertiser "buys" another ad agency that has a better product: more successful commercials.

Nope. An agency does not provide a product it provides a service. A very common distinction when identifying the nature of companys busniess. Your doctor does not sell a product he sells a service. Proctor and Gamble sells a product.  Leo Burnett sells a service. Not my opinion – a business fact. Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John this very simple but I’ll type slowly – The actors that work a lot make a lot on money – the actors that work little – make little money. The issue is how much money do they make when they work -not how much when they don’t. If an actor work three times a year, should they paid to support them the entire year? A better question: should a product advertiser expect to use our image based on a one-off payment. This is about royalties, not salaries. Carl

Again the JPC is offering residuals based on a cycle structure – it is not "a one-off payment" — "The Republican Party’s idea of diversity is to have executives from different oil companies on their national ticket." – CASalonen Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

When an actor’s output is the product – such as a movie – the "in-demand" actors does get to participate in the profits. (if the producers agree

There are only a handful of actors who can demand a percentage of a motion picture’s gross revenues. Just to make sure you understand: percentage of the gross is the only meaningful compensation. Studio accounting always ensures that percentages of net revenues amount to zero. Taking a piece of a picture’s back end may sound great, but it is virtually meaningless unless a film’s revenues are stratospheric and there are no reasonable ways for a studio to hide the profits. But a commericial is not the product but a vehicle for selling a product. The actors are part of a long list of people that work on the commercial. If they want to participate in the success of the product buy some stock in the company that paid for the commercial. Maybe the actors should ask stock options in lieu of their fee. Then they can really participate.

A commercial is a product. The consumer doesn’t buy it; the advertisers do. That is the market for commercials: ADVERTISERS. Perhaps this way of conceptualizing it will help you: Advertisers rent actors performances. Ad agencies compete for advertisers. Advertisers hire ad agencies, buying their services. One product they purchase is commercials extolling what it is that they sell. If the product performs successfully, increasing sales of the advertisers product, they make more use of that product and, like renting a car, pay for additional uses of that product. They only do so if they are benefitting from their purchase of that product. If the product — the commercial — fails expectations, it is dumped and in a brutal but commonplace occurrence, the advertiser "buys" another ad agency that has a better product: more successful commercials. Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John this very simple but I’ll type slowly – I have always found it to be no coincidence that I am never impressed by the arguments or depth of reasoning shown my people who find it necessary to be patronizing or insulting before they have even stated their opinion. . The issue is how much money do they make when they work -not how much when they don’t. No, the issue is fair compensation in the context of the value and profit-making potential of their creative product to the agency.  An author who writes one novel, over a weekend perhaps,  that sells millions of copies for his publisher, receives far more in royalties than an author who writes dozens (or who takes years to write one) that never sell.   Is it your position that it is a more equitable situation if the author is paid strictly on an hourly or per-word basis, regardless of the amount of income generated to the publisher?

When an actor’s output is the product – such as a movie – the "in-demand" actors does get to participate in the profits. (if the producers agree) But a commericial is not the product but a vehicle for selling a product. The actors are part of a long list of people that work on the commercial. If they want to participate in the success of the product buy some stock in the company that paid for the commercial. Maybe the actors should ask stock options in lieu of their fee. Then they can really participate. Perhaps rather than typing slowly, you should type quickly, and invest the time saved in actually thinking about the question.

I typed very fast and then thought and thought and thought – the answer is…. NO!!!!!! Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah thats just it!!! They haven’t heard and they don’t care because the Media is what gets peoples attention!!! It makes for a grim situation! Nah, they don’t care because commercials are not seen as something essential to their everyday life. And the idea of actors going on strike to most people is as laughable as major league athletes going on strike. HG At lease do your homework.  You probably know (or have a good idea) of the average annual major-league baseball salary.  But do you have any idea of the average annual income (from acting) of members of SAG? — Put it this way:  you probably earned more in most of the summer jobs you had while in High School. John L.

The difference in salaries between MLB players and commercial actors is irrelevent to my point. The point is that the general public doesn’t give a damn about any actors strike. HG

Response:

Essentially the principle is the same regardless of how little most actors make from acting.  These people are not providing any kind of service to society that most people see as being tangible. Let’s face it.  The people on strike act in commercials… and while I’m sure they are seasoned professionals, it’s not like they’re picking up my garbage or keeping my water running.

Precisely, which is why this strike doesn’t resonate the way the writers strike and theatrical strike next year will. However, the "consumer" we should be targeting is the advertising clients. *They* would notice the difference. Carl — "The Republican Party’s idea of diversity is to have executives from different oil companies on their national ticket." – CASalonen Before you buy.

Response:

John this very simple but I’ll type slowly – I have always found it to be no coincidence that I am never impressed by the arguments or depth of reasoning shown my people who find it necessary to be patronizing or insulting before they have even stated their opinion. . The issue is how much money do they make when they work -not how much when they don’t. No, the issue is fair compensation in the context of the value and profit-making potential of their creative product to the agency.

No, the issue is compensation (NOTE: the deletion of the subjective word ‘fair’) in the context of the supply of actors and the demand for their services by advertisers.  An author who writes one novel, over a weekend perhaps,  that sells millions of copies for his publisher, receives far more in royalties than an author who writes dozens (or who takes years to write one) that never sell.

and if ten thousand authors are willing to write the same material for less, how much does that author make?  of course, an author’s sales are quantifiable, a commercial actor’s sales are merely claimed (and unproved) by the actor only. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

John this very simple but I’ll type slowly – The actors that work a lot make a lot on money – the actors that work little – make little money. The issue is how much money do they make when they work -not how much when they don’t. If an actor work three times a year, should they paid to support them the entire year?

A better question: should a product advertiser expect to use our image based on a one-off payment. This is about royalties, not salaries. Carl — "The Republican Party’s idea of diversity is to have executives from different oil companies on their national ticket." – CASalonen Before you buy.

Response:

John this very simple but I’ll type slowly –

I have always found it to be no coincidence that I am never impressed by the arguments or depth of reasoning shown my people who find it necessary to be patronizing or insulting before they have even stated their opinion. . The issue is how much money do they make when they

work -not how much when they don’t. No, the issue is fair compensation in the context of the value and profit-making potential of their creative product to the agency.  An author who writes one novel, over a weekend perhaps,  that sells millions of copies for his publisher, receives far more in royalties than an author who writes dozens (or who takes years to write one) that never sell.   Is it  your position that it is a more equitable situation if the author is paid strictly on an hourly or per-word basis, regardless of the amount of income generated to the publisher? Perhaps rather than typing slowly, you should type quickly, and invest the time saved in actually thinking about the question.

Response:

At lease do your homework.  You probably know (or have a good idea) of the average annual major-league baseball salary.  But do you have any idea of the average annual income (from acting) of members of SAG? — Put it this way:  you probably earned more in most of the summer jobs you had while in High School.

John this very simple but I’ll type slowly – The actors that work a lot make a lot on money – the actors that work little – make little money. The issue is how much money do they make when they work -not how much when they don’t. If an actor work three times a year, should they paid to support them the entire year? Before you buy.

Response:

Essentially the principle is the same regardless of how little most actors make from acting.  These people are not providing any kind of service to society that most people see as being tangible. Let’s face it.  The people on strike act in commercials… and while I’m sure they are seasoned professionals, it’s not like they’re picking up my garbage or keeping my water running. dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At lease do your homework.  You probably know (or have a good idea) of the average annual major-league baseball salary.  But do you have any idea of the average annual income (from acting) of members of SAG? — Put it this way:  you probably earned more in most of the summer jobs you had while in High School. John L. yeah thats just it!!! They haven’t heard and they don’t care because the Media is what gets peoples attention!!! It makes for a grim situation! Nah, they don’t care because commercials are not seen as something essential to their everyday life. And the idea of actors going on strike to most people is as laughable as major league athletes going on strike. HG

Response:

Dan:  It’s quite likely that the media isn’t involved in the strike that is

"against" the hands that feed them. ….. to SAG’s ears.

Response:

At lease do your homework.  You probably know (or have a good idea) of the average annual major-league baseball salary.  But do you have any idea of the average annual income (from acting) of members of SAG? — Put it this way:  you probably earned more in most of the summer jobs you had while in High School. John L. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah thats just it!!! They haven’t heard and they don’t care because the Media is what gets peoples attention!!! It makes for a grim situation! Nah, they don’t care because commercials are not seen as something essential to their everyday life. And the idea of actors going on strike to most people is as laughable as major league athletes going on strike. HG

Response:

It is my belief that the media is not more involved in the strike because the advertisers are what pay their bills.   Anyone else care to comment? Maybe the media has been warned Penny for your thoughts!

It’s a valid point. Programs have been cancelled or modified due to advertiser pressure on the braodcasters. However, it seems unlikely to be the sole reason. Face facts, this strike isn’t really news to the general public. Carl — "The Republican Party’s idea of diversity is to have executives from different oil companies on their national ticket." – CASalonen Before you buy.

Response:

: It is my belief that the media is not more involved in the strike because : the advertisers are what pay their bills.   Anyone else care to comment? : Maybe the media has been warned : Penny for your thoughts! : : Totally agree—-if GM was on strike for this long, everyone in the country would know about it. Karen

Response:

yeah thats just it!!! They haven’t heard and they don’t care because the Media is what gets peoples attention!!! It makes for a grim situation!

Nah, they don’t care because commercials are not seen as something essential to their everyday life. And the idea of actors going on strike to most people is as laughable as major league athletes going on strike. HG

Response:

yeah thats just it!!! They haven’t heard and they don’t care because the Media is what gets peoples attention!!! It makes for a grim situation!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s quite likely that the media isn’t involved in the strike that is "against" the hands that feed them.  That would make sense from an economical point of view… and since the media is driven pretty much purely to make money… However, like it or not, I’m guessing it’s because it is much more likely that the public just doesn’t care.  I mean, I’ve told probably fifteen people about the strike in casual conversations… every time I get the same reaction… they haven’t heard about it, and they really don’t care. dan It is my belief that the media is not more involved in the strike because the advertisers are what pay their bills.   Anyone else care to comment? Maybe the media has been warned Penny for your thoughts!

Response:

It’s quite likely that the media isn’t involved in the strike that is "against" the hands that feed them.  That would make sense from an economical point of view… and since the media is driven pretty much purely to make money… However, like it or not, I’m guessing it’s because it is much more likely that the public just doesn’t care.  I mean, I’ve told probably fifteen people about the strike in casual conversations… every time I get the same reaction… they haven’t heard about it, and they really don’t care. dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is my belief that the media is not more involved in the strike because the advertisers are what pay their bills.   Anyone else care to comment? Maybe the media has been warned Penny for your thoughts!

Response:

It is my belief that the media is not more involved in the strike because the advertisers are what pay their bills.   Anyone else care to comment? Maybe the media has been warned Penny for your thoughts!

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think your lawyer could best tell you the answers to your questions.  Good Luck! haahaahaahaa. FlamingoBlue claims he *is* a lawyer! I think he’s looking (trolling?) for some kind of philosophical debate. LOL. Maybe he’s just trying to figure out which party to represent to maximize his commission?

haha. I doubt it, though. I *like* FlamingoBlue, my sense is that he is a thoughtful, concerned fellow who has genuine distaste for much of the absurdity of the divorce process. Best – Fido * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hey, Blue.  For that kinda case, how much is enough attorney’s fees? (LOL)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The couple has been married 30 years. She, age 55, has raised 3 children, attended countless business dinners, maintained a lovely home and has never been formally employed, although she has an B.A. He, age 55, is the C.E.O. of a company that he started from scratch, working long hours during the marriage. The business is worth $20 million. net of debt. He earns $ 1 million/ year. They have other assets worth $10 million. How much should the wife recieve in property; in alimony; and for how long? Why? When is enough, enough? Just curious. blue * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I think your lawyer could best tell you the answers to your questions.  Good Luck! Daisy Visit the ASD Who’s Who webpages at: http://www.geocities.com/asddaisy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The couple has been married 30 years. She, age 55, has raised 3 children, attended countless business dinners, maintained a lovely home and has never been formally employed, although she has an B.A. He, age 55, is the C.E.O. of a company that he started from scratch, working long hours during the marriage. The business is worth $20 million. net of debt. He earns $ 1 million/ year. They have other assets worth $10 million. How much should the wife recieve in property; in alimony; and for how long? Why? When is enough, enough? Just curious. blue * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

The couple has been married 30 years. She, age 55, has raised 3 children, attended countless business dinners, maintained a lovely home and has never been formally employed, although she has an B.A. He, age 55, is the C.E.O. of a company that he started from scratch, working long hours during the marriage. The business is worth $20 million. net of debt. He earns $ 1 million/ year. They have other assets worth $10 million. How much should the wife recieve in property; in alimony; and for how long? Why? When is enough, enough? Just curious.

50/50 split of ALL assets and ALL bills. — Victoria "Lee" Hirt E-mail – http://scican.net/~haxton/email.htm Web Site Designs – http://www.scican.net/~haxton/wsd Personal Web Page – http://www.scican.net/~haxton RTCQ Logo – http://scican.net/~haxton/RCTQ

Response:

I was particularly taken by the comments about lawyers fees. I could hear Mr. Blinn licking his chops. And. by the way Mr. Rags, lawyers do NOT work on commission. That is unethical!!

Intresting… I don’t understand how working on commission could be any more fair. Under such a agreement, you are paid for the level of performance.

Response:

While the problems of mult-millionaires may be an interesting exam or theoretical question for lawyers, accountants or philosophers, IMHO, the folks here have enough to do in dealing with "real life" situations. This problem will wind up in an appellate court somewhere and have no effect of the lives of the rest of us. As "Blue" knows, law school teaches lawyers by having them read decisions rendered by appellate courts.  What they don’t teach is that these decisions are made for parties who only got that level because there was a huge pile of money at stake, either for the litigants or the lawyers.  However, nearly *all* cases are decided by trial judges who use a "seat of the pants" rule of law.  The real lesson should be this: Know your judge.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I was looking for was the opinion of the group as to fairness and equity. There was a recent case involving the wife of an extremely wealthy and successful executive who received less than 20% of the marital estate. That translated into several millions of dollars but not 50%  of the marital estate.  ***

Response:

What I was looking for was the opinion of the group as to fairness and equity. There was a recent case involving the wife of an extremely wealthy and successful executive who received less than 20% of the marital estate. That translated into several millions of dollars but not 50%  of the marital estate. The  old line business magazines buzzed with doomsday stories about the greedy wife. After all, " what did she do" to assist in creating the wealth except to raise the children and be the good business wife? I was particularly taken by the comments about lawyers fees. I could hear Mr. Blinn licking his chops. And. by the way Mr. Rags, lawyers do NOT work on commission. That is unethical!!

Two words… contingency fees… as seen in all the TV ads taken by the ambulence chasers ( " you pay us nothing unless you *win* " ). I would agree that that ought to be unethical, and possibly prohibited. But, its not. I NEVER mentioned fees in my post. Wonder what brought it to mind?.

It seemed logical, as the posited situation would likely necessitate lawyers, if the couple could not arrive at a settlement. To those of you who gave thoughtful replies, I thank you. The question was meant to stimulate thoughtful discussion. Until the next time, blue

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

In article I was particularly taken by the comments about lawyers fees. I could hear Mr. Blinn licking his chops.

Now, now, down, boy. I like Roger, too, he often provides thoughtful and useful advice here. I was just blowing off a little steam with a straight-faced silly post. Watched a video last night that had John Travolta, "Civil Action," I think it was – aside from the silly Holliwood attempt at making an interesting story (we had to destroy the story in order to save it) there were some really neat rambles in that film about legal ethics. Anyway, anything with Robert Duvall is worth watching. Best, Kindest & "Play Nice, Children"  - Fido * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think your lawyer could best tell you the answers to your questions.  Good Luck! haahaahaahaa. FlamingoBlue claims he *is* a lawyer! I think he’s looking (trolling?) for some kind of philosophical debate. LOL. Maybe he’s just trying to figure out which party to represent to maximize his commission? haha. I doubt it, though. I *like* FlamingoBlue, my sense is that he is a thoughtful, concerned fellow who has genuine distaste for much of the absurdity of the divorce process.

Yeah, I would agree with you. He does seem to be sympathetic to the nightmare all parties go through, sympathy he learned through his own experience. But He’s still a lawyer – so I couldn’t resist the comment. If you associate with sharks, don’t be suprised if someone says you smell like fish!

Response:

What I was looking for was the opinion of the group as to fairness and equity. There was a recent case involving the wife of an extremely wealthy and successful executive who received less than 20% of the marital estate. That translated into several millions of dollars but not 50%  of the marital estate. The  old line business magazines buzzed with doomsday stories about the greedy wife. After all, " what did she do" to assist in creating the wealth except to raise the children and be the good business wife? I was particularly taken by the comments about lawyers fees. I could hear Mr. Blinn licking his chops. And. by the way Mr. Rags, lawyers do NOT work on commission. That is unethical!! I NEVER mentioned fees in my post. Wonder what brought it to mind?. To those of you who gave thoughtful replies, I thank you. The question was meant to stimulate thoughtful discussion. Until the next time, blue

Response:

Hey, Blue.  For that kinda case, how much is enough attorney’s

fees? (LOL) Hey, don’t get greedy Roger, this is Blue’s client. I read "The Testament" – and based on that book I can picture you licking your chops over the chance to get hold of Mr or Mrs here, and laying on that "I can get more for you … I can do better…."" rap. At least Blue is considering whether there might be a moral aspect to the situation – something I rarely see from the "warrior" type attornies. I saw no mention of fees involved, or even if this was a real or hypothetical case. I did consider whether there was an implied sexist additude in the question and requested additional facts, and other respondents were satisfied as to the facts and immediately suggest that an even split would be fair. You, however, Roger, only mentioned one aspect of the situation. May I conclude that the potential fee is the most important aspect when you consider the merits of any particular case? Best & Kindest Regards – Fido (Hey, I don’t get to do this often. Give me some licence here.) * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

The couple has been married 30 years. She, age 55, has raised 3 children, attended countless business dinners, maintained a lovely home and has never been formally employed, although she has an B.A. He, age 55, is the C.E.O. of a company that he started from scratch, working long hours during the marriage. The business is worth $20 million. net of debt. He earns $ 1 million/ year. They have other assets worth $10 million. How much should the wife recieve in property; in alimony; and for how long? Why? When is enough, enough? Just curious.

Good question – but faulty assuption implied. I will ask a follow up – "Enough for who – husband or wife"? Kindest – Fido blue * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s

Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

 Each contribution was necessary and each deserves equal recognition.

Premature conclusion. Was each contribution both *necessary* and, if so, *equally* necessary? Kindest – Fido * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I think your lawyer could best tell you the answers to your questions.  Good Luck!

haahaahaahaa. FlamingoBlue claims he *is* a lawyer! I think he’s looking (trolling?) for some kind of philosophical debate. Kindest – Fido Daisy

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I think your lawyer could best tell you the answers to your questions.  Good Luck! haahaahaahaa. FlamingoBlue claims he *is* a lawyer! I think he’s looking (trolling?) for some kind of philosophical debate.

LOL. Maybe he’s just trying to figure out which party to represent to maximize his commission?

Response:

The couple has been married 30 years. She, age 55, has raised 3 children, attended countless business dinners, maintained a lovely home and has never been formally employed, although she has an B.A. He, age 55, is the C.E.O. of a company that he started from scratch, working long hours during the marriage. The business is worth $20 million. net of debt. He earns $ 1 million/ year. They have other assets worth $10 million.

This is sort of a two part question, in actuality. One, what will such people be ordered to do by a court, or, failing the order, given what the precedant is, what will both agree on, and Two, what do the various folks here *believe* ought to happen, given the small amount of data that has been given. On One, I do not know, other than to hazard the guess that, if those two do divorce, he will pay a significant amount, likely for the rest of her life. How much should the wife recieve in property; in alimony; and for for how long? Why?

Property, half of the worth during the marriage; if it were my decision, I would have to inquire as to the reasons for the divorce. If he wants " rid " of her, but she wished the marriage to continue, I would award her more than if she was the instigator, *and* her choice to split were not based on his misbehaviors, as catagorised by the " A’s " of divorce. When is enough, enough? Just curious.

If he’s getting rid of her, perhaps when as much time has passed as they were married. If it’s her getting rid of him, and he’s not in violation of the aforementioned " A’s ", then I would award a minimum amount, and time. In order to give actual numbers, I would need a *lot* more data to contemplate. But then again, I know that " no fault " divorce is just a big fat lie… blue

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

The couple has been married 30 years. She, age 55, has raised 3 children, attended countless business dinners, maintained a lovely home and has never been formally employed, although she has an B.A. He, age 55, is the C.E.O. of a company that he started from scratch, working long hours during the marriage. The business is worth $20 million. net of debt. He earns $ 1 million/ year. They have other assets worth $10 million. How much should the wife recieve in property; in alimony; and for how long? Why? When is enough, enough? Just curious. blue * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

As it appears the children are grown and so neither party ‘needs’ more than the other to look after them, they should receive half each – a straight split down the middle.  Marriage is all about the two becoming one.  The couple achieved the financial status you described, not the husband or wife alone.  Each contribution was necessary and each deserves equal recognition. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The couple has been married 30 years. She, age 55, has raised 3 children, attended countless business dinners, maintained a lovely home and has never been formally employed, although she has an B.A. He, age 55, is the C.E.O. of a company that he started from scratch, working long hours during the marriage. The business is worth $20 million. net of debt. He earns $ 1 million/ year. They have other assets worth $10 million. How much should the wife recieve in property; in alimony; and for how long? Why? When is enough, enough? Just curious. blue * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

nepotism cronyism sexism schlock comfort zone good ol’ boy male dominated golf flow chart secret meetings exec session honk drudgery index card pricing gun pigs spilling coke jello brain operators rack obsessed management joke triple bypass power struggle homophobic accountants choke internet porn goldenboy third floor dope peddlers smoke

Response:

Ed, I love it! — the poem, not the reality.     : ) Mark Dillon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – nepotism cronyism sexism schlock comfort zone good ol’ boy male dominated golf flow chart secret meetings exec session honk drudgery index card pricing gun pigs spilling coke jello brain operators rack obsessed management joke triple bypass power struggle homophobic accountants choke internet porn goldenboy third floor dope peddlers smoke

Response:

nepotism cronyism sexism schlock comfort zone good ol’ boy male dominated golf flow chart secret meetings exec session honk drudgery index card pricing gun pigs spilling coke jello brain operators rack obsessed management joke triple bypass power struggle homophobic accountants choke internet porn goldenboy third floor dope peddlers smoke cool. Can I get a job there? Mary Beth

coke.spew.monitor -c — Chris Metzler                   Work Address:   Loomis Laboratory of Physics 217-333-1065 (office)                           University of Illinois (remove "snip-me." to email, of course)               Champaign, IL  61801-3080 USA Barney must be destroyed.

Response:

nepotism cronyism sexism schlock comfort zone good ol’ boy male dominated golf flow chart secret meetings exec session honk drudgery index card pricing gun pigs spilling coke jello brain operators rack obsessed management joke triple bypass power struggle homophobic accountants choke internet porn goldenboy third floor dope peddlers smoke

cool. Can I get a job there? Mary Beth

Response:

nepotism cronyism sexism schlock comfort zone good ol’ boy male dominated golf flow chart secret meetings exec session honk drudgery index card pricing gun pigs spilling coke jello brain operators rack obsessed management joke triple bypass power struggle homophobic accountants choke internet porn goldenboy third floor dope peddlers smoke cool. Can I get a job there? Mary Beth

This sent me into a coughing/laughing spell that brought Boomer running. Y’all too much!!! Aware1 — Toto… I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore.

Response:

Question:

 That’s a whole diferent story.  I know that some of you guys out there must be good enough players too make women come from listening to your playing. Why don’t some of you speak up?.  It’s not that unusual.  It’s happened to me on over 5 occasions that I know of and I can’t estimate how many woman were. too embarrased to say anything.  Do I need to get testimonials or are all you guys just wannabe guitar players and your really only good with computers like someone suggested  to me the other day.  If that is the case here, then why don’t you try accounting or some other job suitable for you lack of talent and personality. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo? Are you sure she wasn’t trying to piss on you ?

Response:

That’s a whole diferent story.  I know that some of you guys out there must be good enough players too make women come from listening to your playing. Why don’t some of you speak up?.  It’s not that unusual.  It’s happened to me on over 5 occasions that I know of and I can’t estimate how many woman were. too embarrased to say anything.  Do I need to get testimonials or are all you guys just wannabe guitar players and your really only good with computers like someone suggested  to me the other day.  If that is the case here, then why don’t you try accounting or some other job suitable for you lack of talent and personality. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo? Are you sure she wasn’t trying to piss on you ?

Response:

Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

yeah, but it was sure was messy on my guitar, and then there was all the chaffing…

Response:

Where have I lied?  Come up with some other than nah nah nah nahnah!  I’m rubber your glue…etc. Besides, I thought we were getting along. Troll-n.-someone who posts insulting and/or untruthful information in order to evoke a response, i.e. YOU.

Come on, like anyone’s going to believe you made a girl reach orgasm with a solo.

Response:

posting this?  I personally don’t give a rip if you’re better than me…..but that’s just me.  But I’ll bet I’m really in terms of how long I’ve been playing.  Later dude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess if I didn’t have to live here,  I wouldn’t want to come down to minneapolis just for the very slight chance of getting a wah pedal.  P.S. I can only offer what I can afford to lose.  However, if I had said free tickets to Jamaca, every down and out  virtuoso would probably be beating a path to my door.  But I didn’t. Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads

Response:

What are you talking about? Think before you fart. There are plenty of people who play various aspects of music much better than me.  I’m just very,very good at improvising,  and writing  catchy, original  stuff. AlDemeola plays better conventional ( generic) jazz than I do.  But I’m not talking about old ideas. Yngvie plays yngvie better than me.  I’m not a cover player.  Although I can play all that I hear sooner or later.  The difficult I play right away, the impossible may take a day.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is the best you could come up with?… some over distorted capriciata from Paganini? You gotta to do better than that to get my challenge. The woman that you made cum with your solo was Rue Paul.

Response:

Well, maybe you are but if your not interested in a free wah pedal why did you answer? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – posting this?  I personally don’t give a rip if you’re better than me…..but that’s just me.  But I’ll bet I’m really in terms of how long I’ve been playing.  Later dude.

Response:

I respect your answer, keep practicing.   You can do what you truly believe, if you truly believe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry, I’m no virtuoso, but it occurs to me that REAL players don’t need to brag or defend themselves. We have the confidence without needing to pump ourselves up to our peers. Just my $.02… TJS "…I’ll never find a better time to be alive than now…" Peter Hammill

Response:

You aren’t even worthy of a response foul mouth pete.   But I like you for some reason, you got "spunk". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wow, a cry baby? all to myself? WOW! how long did you save your allowance for it? btw, it’s "challenge" dumbass. Pete

Response:

Uh, Gee thanks, I know thats a real compliment.  Spinal Tap is a great lampoon.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Man, the next time that someone from Spinal Tap spontaneously combusts, I hope it’s Nigel Tufnel.  You would be the ultimate replacement for him. Are you a successful musician?  You don’t seem to be satisfied with yourself. If you were, you would realise that playing is not about competition- not egotism, winning, macho posturing, or childish challenges.

Response:

Where have I lied?  Come up with some other than nah nah nah nahnah!  I’m rubber your glue…etc. Besides, I thought we were getting along. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Troll-n.-someone who posts insulting and/or untruthful information in order to evoke a response, i.e. YOU.

Response:

 I can do that too, but I am very jaded in that department.  Too much excess leads to perversion.  Come down and join the orgy bring your family and some axel grease.   See you real soon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – nope, but I make a girl come with something else… and I bet you can’t

Response:

of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?

Are you sure she wasn’t trying to piss on you ? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads.  If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.  Afterall,  any beginner could learn the entire Rising Force album note for note in a couple of months.  As well as anything by Nuno Beetencourt.  So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo? Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t. nope, but I make a girl come with something else… and I bet you can’t

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess if I didn’t have to live here,  I wouldn’t want to come down to minneapolis just for the very slight chance of getting a wah pedal.  P.S. I can only offer what I can afford to lose.  However, if I had said free tickets to Jamaca, every down and out  virtuoso would probably be beating a path to my door.  But I didn’t. Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads

must be spring, I feel the hot air moveing in

Response:

So shouldn’t the satisfaction of making me eat my words be enough?  More than likely you’d go home with you tail between your legs.  Terry make up your mind or do you always hide behind the ambiguity of an androgenous moniker. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

I’m sorry, I’m no virtuoso, but it occurs to me that REAL players don’t need to brag or defend themselves. We have the confidence without needing to pump ourselves up to our peers. Just my $.02… TJS "…I’ll never find a better time to be alive than now…" Peter Hammill

Response:

I guess if I didn’t have to live here,  I wouldn’t want to come down to minneapolis just for the very slight chance of getting a wah pedal.  P.S.  I can only offer what I can afford to lose.  However, if I had said free tickets to Jamaca, every down and out  virtuoso would probably be beating a path to my door.  But I didn’t. Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads Swap licks ala cross roads????

this is the best you could come up with?… some over distorted capriciata from Paganini? You gotta to do better than that to get my challenge. The woman that you made cum with your solo was Rue Paul.

Response:

If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.

    No person I consider a musician would make such a statement, even if true, because accuracy and speed are about technic and originality is only one aspect of making music. DBluzz  

Response:

Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads.  If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.  Afterall,  any beginner could learn the entire Rising Force album note for note in a couple of months.  As well as anything by Nuno Beetencourt.  So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

wow, a cry baby? all to myself? WOW! how long did you save your allowance for it? btw, it’s "challenge" dumbass. Pete

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads.  If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.  Afterall,  any beginner could learn the entire Rising Force album note for note in a couple of months.  As well as anything by Nuno Beetencourt.  So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

Troll-n.-someone who posts insulting and/or untruthful information in order to evoke a response, i.e. YOU.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads.  If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.  Afterall,  any beginner could learn the entire Rising Force album note for note in a couple of months.  As well as anything by Nuno Beetencourt.  So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

nope, but I make a girl come with something else… and I bet you can’t

Response:

Man, the next time that someone from Spinal Tap spontaneously combusts, I hope it’s Nigel Tufnel.  You would be the ultimate replacement for him.  Are you a successful musician?  You don’t seem to be satisfied with yourself. If you were, you would realise that playing is not about competition- not egotism, winning, macho posturing, or childish challenges.

Response:

Wow, I’m impressed. I usually made the girls cum after the show. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess if I didn’t have to live here,  I wouldn’t want to come down to minneapolis just for the very slight chance of getting a wah pedal.  P.S. I can only offer what I can afford to lose.  However, if I had said free tickets to Jamaca, every down and out  virtuoso would probably be beating a path to my door.  But I didn’t. Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads

Response:

I guess if I didn’t have to live here,  I wouldn’t want to come down to minneapolis just for the very slight chance of getting a wah pedal.  P.S.  I can only offer what I can afford to lose.  However, if I had said free tickets to Jamaca, every down and out  virtuoso would probably be beating a path to my door.  But I didn’t. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads

Response:

Some of you high spirited lads have been making rather disparaging suggestions as to whether I can actually play the guitar or not.  Rather then say, most people would say I’m the best guitar player they have ever met in their entire lives, which many a number of people have.  Why don’t you E-mail me next time your going to be in Minneapolis, and you can meet me at my studio and challenge me to swap licks ala cross roads.  If you can kick my ass at guitar playing in accuracy, speed, and originality. With out playing a single lick from a known song.  I will give you a working wah wah pedal.  Afterall,  any beginner could learn the entire Rising Force album note for note in a couple of months.  As well as anything by Nuno Beetencourt.  So if your not a phoney, copycat, ,wanna be.  You may accept this challange with the sure knowledge that soon you will be the proud owner of a Jim Dunlap Cry Baby.  Ever make a girl come from playing a solo?  Don’t even bother to respond if you haven’t.

Response:

Question:

Dave What do you think of the new FICHT technology?  Is it going to price those engines out of the market?  I realize that the new emissions laws will soon require either 4-stroke or DFI technology but I fear that the new technology will be too expensive for entry level and price sensitive boaters.  And what of the dependability of the new DFI?  Are they testing them with really bad fuel like is available at many marinas?  Don’t need to test on the general public with marine sales stagnating.  The resale value of merc/mar/ john/evi/yam is nearly the same in the ABOS Outboard Motor Blue Book because their perceived value in the market differs from area to area depending on the quality of dealer. Tom Fournier ABOS Outboard Motor Blue Book(since 1949)

Response:

What do you think of the new FICHT technology?  Is it going to price those engines out of the market?

I think the new Ficht stuff has yet to receive the recognition it deserves. This DFI is so far ahead of everything else (including Merc’s) it’s scary. While it’s true we haven’t had much time under our belt on this engine yet, I’m confident it will shine this coming season. As for price, the technology isn’t that expensive and the price will come down once it’s spread to the other engines and the R & D starts to be recovered over a wider area. I realize that the new emissions laws will soon require either 4-stroke or DFI technology but I fear that the new technology will be too expensive for entry level and price sensitive boaters.

I understand they have an 8hp running on Ficht as we speak. While it certainly is going to raise the price of these little guys, I think the impact on a package boat will be marginal. And what of the dependability of the new DFI?  Are they testing them with really bad fuel like is available at many marinas?

These guys have tested this motor ’til they’re blue in the face. Each and every motor coming off the assembly line is run FIFTY HOURS. As for testing with bad fuel, that’s something you’ll have to ask them. Gotta run….                 Dave Brown                 Brown’s Marina

Response:

These guys have tested this motor ’til they’re blue in the face. Each and every motor coming off the assembly line is run FIFTY HOURS. As for testing with bad fuel, that’s something you’ll have to ask them. Gotta run….                 Dave Brown                 Brown’s Marina

If they are run 50 hours then why is there always a break-in period at idle speed ?

Response:

If they are run 50 hours then why is there always a break-in period at idle speed ?

Who said their was? <g Actually, as the critical first stage of testing is over and they make sure the plant is producing nothing but perfect motors <g, the test time will reduce, as will the number of motors which are run through the rigourous testing. One of the reasons for the exhaustive test are the EPA tracking requiremnts and what hoops must be jumped through to satisfy this agency. Of course, the fact the OMC has literally placed all it’s eggs in one basket on this technology means there’s no way they’re gonna allow it to get a bad rap as a first production model. Regards,                 Dave Brown                 Brown’s Marina

Response:

Would someone care to tell me what 1 of these 150 Ficht’s would cost, installed , out the door?  Not the list price, the real price!! Do they make a 200, 225, 250 yet. How do they stack up to the new Merc DFI?  From what I’ve seen both are claiming 35% more fuel efficiency. Thats the part that interests me. If we can get say…3mpg then were talking!! — Bill Driscoll Pensacola, FL. USA

Response:

This still happens?  I thought *everyone* knew.

And I thought everyone knew that most of us were tired of the same old ‘jetski vs boater’ posts that continue to repeat the same tirade of stuff over and over and over and over and over…….  Go figure.

Response:

The only problem with suzuki is the availablity of parts and service. You can get evinrude/johnson and mercury parts almost anywhere, but suzuki and yamaha are hard to come by. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -outboards are SUZUKIs. The Best warrenty in the business and they make more two cycle engines than anyone. ArtPasseri

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jason Hello my name is Ron Torgeson. I have owned 4 Mercs in my life, 10 hp.,25 hp.200 hp and a 150 hp. and one Johnson 3.5 hp.. I do beleave that just about all newer makes are prob. ok, but my money will still go on Mercs. I blewup the 200 hp. and still bought a 150 to replace it. I am/was a tournament bass fisherman. When I go to a tournament at odark aclock in the morning I want to hit the key and go. The two mercs have never let me down on cold starts. I have set in line waiting for the OMC guys to crank and warmup so I can put-in, once thay get warm thay start ok but cold starts OMC are not good. By the way the reason the 200 blew had nothing to do with it being a Merc, it had to do with me cranking it to 6200 rpm too many times, boat would run 92 mph. Take it for what it’s worth, but if you want to see first hand just go to a bass tornament on a cold morning and see for your self. Ron T.

I would say it should depend on your local service provider. I have had mercury and OMC and when it comes down to it they will all need service eventually. It took 4 yrs to find a good service mechanic and I had a sea drive which is nothing more than an out board on a bracket and one mechanic could not perform because he was not sea drive rated even though the problem was related to idleing and the engine was identical to Johnson or evinude. I have heard nothing bad ever aboutYamaha or Suzuki they seem more reliable, but do they have service in your area?

Response:

: : : My father was a boat dealer for many, many : years : : and handled Evinrude and Mercury. : : That must have been after OMC dropped their : exclusive franchise : requirement. That was in the 1970s, I think. :  Good lord. Intelligent discourse on the internet. You flatter me. :  My dad was the *exclusive* Evinrude franchise : holder from about 1946 to sometime in the 1960’s : in his Southern Connecticut county. He dropped it : like a hot potato(e) when Evinrude decided to end : that way of doing business and gave other dealers : in the same county the opportunity to sell the : engines. OMC had required that their dealers sell only one brand of motor. If you sold Evinrude, you didn’t sell Johnson, Merc, Scott, or whatever else. Mercury’s founder, Carl Kiekhaefer, was appalled by this practice and thought it was unfair. He initiated a kind of class action suit against OMC for this in cooperation with all the other outboard manufacturers, sometime in the ’50s I believe. OMC countered by serving subpoenas on the other manufacturers’ lists of dealers, etc., the kind of stuff you’d likely need to show whether OMC’s dealer network was in fact monopolizing the marketplace. Carl cited this information as trade secrets, and the matter didn’t get too much farther. :  There were differences between Johnsons and : Evinrudes in those days. Not any more. And I don’t : buy the Kellog analogy. It was kind of an arguable "reductio ad absurdum" analogy, I realized as I was making it. : Corn Flakes and Sugar : Frosted Flakes are two entirely different : products, appealing to different markets. : Mercury/Mariner and Evinrude/Johnson are identical : products. But are you sure that J/E appeal to identical markets? I’m not. There’s brand loyalty to consider. I used to prefer J to E, even though in my heart I knew that they were almost identical (even after the days when differences were fast disappearing), but’s that the way it was. It was a feeling, not necessarily based in reality.  So whereas we’d probably agree that the demographics describing the average J or E buyer might be the same, the individuals making the purchases might actually prefer one brand to another. Take away the choice, and they might look at a non-OMC product. How many customers would you lose if you suddenly declared that you will no longer sell the brand that their grandaddy used to love? : As it is now, OMC has to split its : marketing budget between two competing products, : as does Brunswick, though Mariner gets the short : end of the stick. If they advertise each of 2 brands half as much as they would by having only one brand, yet by having 2 brands they sell more than they would by selling 1 brand, they’ve come out ahead. : If Evinrude were the surviving brand name, dealers : would simply have to change their signage and have : enough "white" parts around to handle Johnson. : That’s about it. If you were a Johnson dealer, perhaps you’d "simply" rather fight than switch. It costs big bucks to change all your sinage, etc. over to Evinrude. You might demand that OMC pay for the conversion. Or you might just concentrate on being a Merc, Force, and Yamaha dealer. Here in Philadelphia, we’ve got several dealers that sell Johnson and Yamaha, and of those several sell Merc and Force as well. Maybe its the same elsewhere. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen a place selling only one brand. So be eliminating Johnson, I think OMC would lose customers, dealers, money, — —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is just my opinion and am going to get a bunch of flack from mercury owners, but In My Opinion Mercury is lower quality than Johnson/Evinrude. Remeber You Get What You Pay For and new Mercury motor are cheaper that the same HP Johnsons. Hi, I had originaly wanted a Johnson Outboard because I have had good experiences with them and they have a great reliability reputation.  I now have an opportunity to get a GREAT deal on a new Merc.  Does any one have an objective opinion on Merc vs. Johnson as far as reliability and performance.  I,m not racing I want a boat that will start and run everyday. Thanks, Jason

Merc is not bad, based on my experience in tough conditions with a 8hp ‘97. It has been driven in cold water (near 0 degrees Centigrades and it has been starting and working flawlessy. The props have a good selection but in general, it is a matter of taste. Regads, T

Response:

Believe it or not, mercury is on top right now……

Interesting statement – what do you base it on? Are you familiar with OMC Ficht DFI engines? Are you aware that OMC is licenced to use Oribital technology (Merc’s EFI) and chooses not to use it in favour of Ficht? Regards,                 Dave Brown                 Brown’s Marina

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, it would make sense for OMC to drop Johnson as a nameplate and concentrate its limited resources on one brand name. The two brands exist only because it enables OMC to satisfy franchised local dealers who don’t want to appear to be directly competing with each other. Likewise, Brunswick should drop the Mariner nameplate. The public is not fooled when a dealer on one side of town sells Johnsons and one on the other side sells Evinrudes. They are the same engines. Actually Harry, time and time again it has been proven that the public is fooled by this chirade which is why Merc got into the Mariner line. I have to prove to people weekly that they are the same and that means actually showing them the parts books as nothing less will do. Dave Brown Brown’s Marina

 This still happens?  I thought *everyone* knew. — P.O. Box 7575  Jacksonville, Florida 32238 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - What principles?  I’m trying to get elected!

Response:

: Actually Harry, time and time again it has been : proven that the public : is fooled by this chirade which is why Merc got : into the Mariner line. I : have to prove to people weekly that they are the : same and that means : actually showing them the parts books as nothing : less will do. : : Dave Brown :  This still happens?  I thought *everyone* knew. It could be that the legacy of Yamaha-built Mariners is hard to strike from the public consciousness. Even people in the trade persisted in saying that Mariners were built in Japan by Yamaha long after it ceased to be true. — —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : My father was a boat dealer for many, many years : and handled Evinrude and Mercury. That must have been after OMC dropped their exclusive franchise requirement. That was in the 1970s, I think. : He always said : they were about equal in reliability. Evinrude and Mercury are probably more alike than different these days. Back in the ’40s, ’50s and ’60s when "Merc for performance, OMC for reliability" became the saying, there were major differences in the engineering. As we all know, reliability is greatly dependent on who’s using it and how it’s used. ‘Nuff said on that. : The only down side is that OMC, the parent of : Evinrude and Johnson, is having a fairly rough : time of it financially right now and may be : seeking drastic solutions. : Actually, it would make sense for OMC to drop : Johnson as a nameplate and concentrate its limited : resources on one brand name. It’s an interesting idea. That would mean either closing up about 1/2 the dealers, or investing gobs of cash in converting them over. Probably not the approach I’d take if I had limited resources, all in the name of saving the cost of having 2 different paint departments back at the plant. Also interesting that you should mention dropping Johnson. In other parts of the world, "Johnson" is used to mean "outboard motor" the way we use "Kleenex" to mean "tissue". So, maybe Johnson should be the overseas brand? : The two brands exist : only because it enables OMC to satisfy franchised : local dealers who don’t want to appear to be : directly competing with each other. There’s a rich history behind the origin of the 2 brands and their merger into OMC. It’s interesting to note that both Evinrude and Johnson had their share of financial and other problems in the earlier part of the century. When OMC made their last acquisition of an outboard firm in 1935, they got Johnson and all its top-notch engineers. Cross-pollenization between the divisions was not widely used, however. In fact, Evinrude was about ready to call it quits in the late ’40s because they couldn’t seem to design a reasonably modern motor. The stopgap solution was to borrow parts from OMC’s other divisions, Gale and Johnson, to create the 14 HP Fastwin. Next, Evinrude and Johnson engineers worked side by side to create the 1951 25 HP "Big Twin", the first OMC motor to be sold in mechanically identical form by both Johnson and Evinrude. This was the beginning of the "common line" approach, and by 1956 J&E were selling the same motors under different trim. Combining the manufacturing into the same assembly lines came later. : Likewise, : Brunswick should drop the Mariner nameplate. There’s good reason for them not to, as Mariner still enjoys a better reputation for saltwater resistance, regardless of the present-day facts about their manufacture. Merc and Mariner have been the same for a much shorter time than J&E. : The : public is not fooled when a dealer on one side of : town sells Johnsons and one on the other side : sells Evinrudes. They are the same engines. Same engines, yes. Public not fooled, maybe. But there’s no accounting for taste. Some just like the "look" of an Evinrude over a Johnson. If they didn’t have the choice between the two, they might be inclined to look more closely at a nice Mariner instead. If Kelloggs were to sell only Corn Flakes, would their market share improve? The public is not fooled, Corn Flakes and Frosted Flakes are the same thing, breakfast cereal made from corn, with just a different coating. The perception of choice, even if some options work out to be identical to other options, almost always works in favor of the seller offering the greater number of products. Selling only one brand, they might sell say 1 million units. Selling 2 identical brands, they might sell say 600,000 of each brand. — —

 Good lord. Intelligent discourse on the internet.  My dad was the *exclusive* Evinrude franchise holder from about 1946 to sometime in the 1960’s in his Southern Connecticut county. He dropped it like a hot potato(e) when Evinrude decided to end that way of doing business and gave other dealers in the same county the opportunity to sell the engines.  At that point, since he was moving close to 700 engines a year, Mercury made him an offer he found hard to refuse, so he became a Merc dealer. His shop had handled Merc repairs for years. All the mechanics he hired were moonlighters, who worked days as helicopter engine mechanics for Sikorsky, and these fellows could fix anything. Even Scott-Atwaters and Gales.  There were differences between Johnsons and Evinrudes in those days. Not any more. And I don’t buy the Kellog analogy. Corn Flakes and Sugar Frosted Flakes are two entirely different products, appealing to different markets. Mercury/Mariner and Evinrude/Johnson are identical products. As it is now, OMC has to split its marketing budget between two competing products, as does Brunswick, though Mariner gets the short end of the stick. If Evinrude were the surviving brand name, dealers would simply have to change their signage and have enough "white" parts around to handle Johnson. That’s about it. — P.O. Box 7575  Jacksonville, Florida 32238 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - A book (returned) in time saves time.

Response:

Youn are right, it is a matter of taste. My taste is for better built more reliable motors, so I go with Evinrude over Mercury. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Merc is not bad, based on my experience in tough conditions with a 8hp ‘97. It has been driven in cold water (near 0 degrees Centigrades and it has been starting and working flawlessy. The props have a good selection but in general, it is a matter of taste. Regads, T

Response:

: My father was a boat dealer for many, many years : and handled Evinrude and Mercury. That must have been after OMC dropped their exclusive franchise requirement. That was in the 1970s, I think. : He always said : they were about equal in reliability. Evinrude and Mercury are probably more alike than different these days. Back in the ’40s, ’50s and ’60s when "Merc for performance, OMC for reliability" became the saying, there were major differences in the engineering. As we all know, reliability is greatly dependent on who’s using it and how it’s used. ‘Nuff said on that. : The only down side is that OMC, the parent of : Evinrude and Johnson, is having a fairly rough : time of it financially right now and may be : seeking drastic solutions. : Actually, it would make sense for OMC to drop : Johnson as a nameplate and concentrate its limited : resources on one brand name. It’s an interesting idea. That would mean either closing up about 1/2 the dealers, or investing gobs of cash in converting them over. Probably not the approach I’d take if I had limited resources, all in the name of saving the cost of having 2 different paint departments back at the plant. Also interesting that you should mention dropping Johnson. In other parts of the world, "Johnson" is used to mean "outboard motor" the way we use "Kleenex" to mean "tissue". So, maybe Johnson should be the overseas brand? : The two brands exist : only because it enables OMC to satisfy franchised : local dealers who don’t want to appear to be : directly competing with each other. There’s a rich history behind the origin of the 2 brands and their merger into OMC. It’s interesting to note that both Evinrude and Johnson had their share of financial and other problems in the earlier part of the century. When OMC made their last acquisition of an outboard firm in 1935, they got Johnson and all its top-notch engineers. Cross-pollenization between the divisions was not widely used, however. In fact, Evinrude was about ready to call it quits in the late ’40s because they couldn’t seem to design a reasonably modern motor. The stopgap solution was to borrow parts from OMC’s other divisions, Gale and Johnson, to create the 14 HP Fastwin. Next, Evinrude and Johnson engineers worked side by side to create the 1951 25 HP "Big Twin", the first OMC motor to be sold in mechanically identical form by both Johnson and Evinrude. This was the beginning of the "common line" approach, and by 1956 J&E were selling the same motors under different trim. Combining the manufacturing into the same assembly lines came later. : Likewise, : Brunswick should drop the Mariner nameplate. There’s good reason for them not to, as Mariner still enjoys a better reputation for saltwater resistance, regardless of the present-day facts about their manufacture. Merc and Mariner have been the same for a much shorter time than J&E. : The : public is not fooled when a dealer on one side of : town sells Johnsons and one on the other side : sells Evinrudes. They are the same engines. Same engines, yes. Public not fooled, maybe. But there’s no accounting for taste. Some just like the "look" of an Evinrude over a Johnson. If they didn’t have the choice between the two, they might be inclined to look more closely at a nice Mariner instead. If Kelloggs were to sell only Corn Flakes, would their market share improve? The public is not fooled, Corn Flakes and Frosted Flakes are the same thing, breakfast cereal made from corn, with just a different coating. The perception of choice, even if some options work out to be identical to other options, almost always works in favor of the seller offering the greater number of products. Selling only one brand, they might sell say 1 million units. Selling 2 identical brands, they might sell say 600,000 of each brand. — —

Response:

Actually, it would make sense for OMC to drop Johnson as a nameplate and concentrate its limited resources on one brand name. The two brands exist only because it enables OMC to satisfy franchised local dealers who don’t want to appear to be directly competing with each other. Likewise, Brunswick should drop the Mariner nameplate. The public is not fooled when a dealer on one side of town sells Johnsons and one on the other side sells Evinrudes. They are the same engines.

Actually Harry, time and time again it has been proven that the public is fooled by this chirade which is why Merc got into the Mariner line. I have to prove to people weekly that they are the same and that means actually showing them the parts books as nothing less will do. Dave Brown Brown’s Marina

Response:

: As a factory trained mech. on most incl. OMC Merc. even Chrys. Scott A. : (aging myself) etc.  I first say I haven’t worked professionally as a mech : for a number of years but have helped folks out and tinkered with em.  I : always liked OMC products, but had no real problems with mercs in fresh : water apps.   Heh heh, that old mantra about Merc’s saltwater problems again! It was definitely true "back when", but it is old news now and times have changed. : Yamaha also makes the smaller Mariners : (believe they still do).   These days (since about 1988 actually), all Mercs and Mariners below 6 HP are made by another Japanese firm, TOHATSU. Tohatsu also makes the entire Nissan line. If you’re interested in the Yamaha-Merc-Mariner connection, read this old clipping: : This question may have been asked many times before here, but what is : the differnce between Mercury outboards and Mariner.  If there is not : any why do they make both?  I was told that Merc. engines were : blueprinted, but now they are the same. The Mariner brand was started in the mid 1970s as a joint venture between Yamaha and Mercury. Mercury made the 2 largest engines (80 and 115 HP if memory serves), Yamaha made the rest. Other Merc models were added to the Mariner stable as time went on. In the mid 1980s, Yamaha and Merc parted company, so Mercury made all the Mariners after that. The Mariner motors didn’t always have all the frills found on their Merc counterparts, but as of the early 1990s, that distinction fell by the wayside as well. Now, Mercury and Mariner motors are made on the same assembly line, and they are wheeled to separate booths for painting and decals. No difference whatsoever. One rumor has it that the Mariner brand was started because of the Mercury brand’s early reputation for dismal saltwater corrosion resistance. OMC got the definite jump on Mercury in the 1950s and ’60s in that department, but Merc was a very strong contender going into the ’70s. They couldn’t shake the bad image, though. Mariner (even the name suggests it) was marketed as a good saltwater motor. Some of that charm may have rubbed off onto the Mercury brand by its association with Mariner. Even if not, folks in the market for a saltwater motor can choose a Mariner over a Merc and the money goes to the same place. Also, to compete with OMC’s johnson and Evinrude, it would be good to have 2 brands instead of just one. Since Brunswick bought Force, the Mercury Marine division now owns 3 brands. — —

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Art writes:

<<Mercury, Johnson/Evinrude are good engines, however IMHO the best outboards are SUZUKIs. The Best warrenty in the business and they make more two cycle engines than anyone. As a factory trained mech. on most incl. OMC Merc. even Chrys. Scott A. (aging myself) etc.  I first say I haven’t worked professionally as a mech for a number of years but have helped folks out and tinkered with em.  I always liked OMC products, but had no real problems with mercs in fresh water apps.  I have been most impressed with the engineering, quality and ease of maintenance on the Yamaha (brought to you by the same folks that brought you Pearl Harbor).  Yamaha also makes the smaller Mariners (believe they still do).  All things being equal, that’s what I’d buy today.  Around here (central FL) the Suz’s have a reputaion for needing that warranty.  Very low resale value.  I don’t have experience with them personally. Greg Sefton

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is just my opinion and am going to get a bunch of flack from mercury owners, but In My Opinion Mercury is lower quality than Johnson/Evinrude. Remeber You Get What You Pay For and new Mercury motor are cheaper that the same HP Johnsons. Hi, I had originaly wanted a Johnson Outboard because I have had good experiences with them and they have a great reliability reputation.  I now have an opportunity to get a GREAT deal on a new Merc.  Does any one have an objective opinion on Merc vs. Johnson as far as reliability and performance.  I,m not racing I want a boat that will start and run everyday. Thanks, Jason I have both and have had good luck with both. I have a 7.5 hp mercury 1977 that has taken a 20′ sailboat down the intercoastal from DE to Fort Myers Beach on the Gulf side and back, made several trips up the DE bay and down the Cheseapeake Bay and back to DE through the Ocean and also has made several trips to Cape May NJ plus all the day sailing throughout the years. The only thing that has been done to it is basic maintanence and changing of the impeller on a regular basis. I plan on bringing it to FL next winter to power a 16ft fishing boat that I have just finished building. I have every confidence that I will easily run over to Red Fish Pass or up to Boca Grande for day fishing. Living on Pine Island in the winter I have to also mention that mercury has test boats running up and down the sound and out into the gulf around Fort Meyers Beach 24 hrs a day to try to make them fail so they can find weaknesses, if you visit the area you cannot miss them as they are bright yellow and usually run in pairs.     Mercury, Johnson/Evinrude are good engines, however IMHO the best

outboards are SUZUKIs. The Best warrenty in the business and they make more two cycle engines than anyone. ArtPasseri

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is just my opinion and am going to get a bunch of flack from mercury owners, but In My Opinion Mercury is lower quality than Johnson/Evinrude. Remeber You Get What You Pay For and new Mercury motor are cheaper that the same HP Johnsons.  Jason Vormbaum wrote in article Hi, I had originaly wanted a Johnson Outboard because I have had good experiences with them and they have a great reliability reputation.  I now have an opportunity to get a GREAT deal on a new Merc.  Does any one have an objective opinion on Merc vs. Johnson as far as reliability and performance.  I,m not racing I want a boat that will start and run everyday. Thanks, Jason I have both and have had good luck with both. I have a 7.5 hp mercury 1977 that has taken a 20′ sailboat down the intercoastal from DE to Fort Myers Beach on the Gulf side and back, made several trips up the DE bay and down the Cheseapeake Bay and back to DE through the Ocean and also has made several trips to Cape May NJ plus all the day sailing throughout the years. The only thing that has been done to it is basic maintanence and changing of the impeller on a regular basis. I plan on bringing it to FL next winter to power a 16ft fishing boat that I have just finished building. I have every confidence that I will easily run over to Red Fish Pass or up to Boca Grande for day fishing. Living on Pine Island in the winter I have to also mention that mercury has test boats running up and down the sound and out into the gulf around Fort Meyers Beach 24 hrs a day to try to make them fail so they can find weaknesses, if you visit the area you cannot miss them as they are bright yellow and usually run in pairs.

 I would add that Mercury, Mariner, Evinrude, Johnson and Yamaha are about the same in overal quality. My friendly neighborhood dealer sells all four and says that the only problem among the major brands is that Yamaha parts are "more expensive" and harder to get. My father was a boat dealer for many, many years and handled Evinrude and Mercury. He always said they were about equal in reliability. The only down side is that OMC, the parent of Evinrude and Johnson, is having a fairly rough time of it financially right now and may be seeking drastic solutions. Actually, it would make sense for OMC to drop Johnson as a nameplate and concentrate its limited resources on one brand name. The two brands exist only because it enables OMC to satisfy franchised local dealers who don’t want to appear to be directly competing with each other. Likewise, Brunswick should drop the Mariner nameplate. The public is not fooled when a dealer on one side of town sells Johnsons and one on the other side sells Evinrudes. They are the same engines. — P.O. Box 7575  Jacksonville, Florida 32238 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - I don’t have a solution but I really admire the problem.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is just my opinion and am going to get a bunch of flack from mercury owners, but In My Opinion Mercury is lower quality than Johnson/Evinrude. Remeber You Get What You Pay For and new Mercury motor are cheaper that the same HP Johnsons. Hi, I had originaly wanted a Johnson Outboard because I have had good experiences with them and they have a great reliability reputation.  I now have an opportunity to get a GREAT deal on a new Merc.  Does any one have an objective opinion on Merc vs. Johnson as far as reliability and performance.  I,m not racing I want a boat that will start and run everyday. Thanks, Jason

I have both and have had good luck with both. I have a 7.5 hp mercury 1977 that has taken a 20′ sailboat down the intercoastal from DE to Fort Myers Beach on the Gulf side and back, made several trips up the DE bay and down the Cheseapeake Bay and back to DE through the Ocean and also has made several trips to Cape May NJ plus all the day sailing throughout the years. The only thing that has been done to it is basic maintanence and changing of the impeller on a regular basis. I plan on bringing it to FL next winter to power a 16ft fishing boat that I have just finished building. I have every confidence that I will easily run over to Red Fish Pass or up to Boca Grande for day fishing. Living on Pine Island in the winter I have to also mention that mercury has test boats running up and down the sound and out into the gulf around Fort Meyers Beach 24 hrs a day to try to make them fail so they can find weaknesses, if you visit the area you cannot miss them as they are bright yellow and usually run in pairs.

Response:

this is just my opinion and am going to get a bunch of flack from mercury owners, but In My Opinion Mercury is lower quality than Johnson/Evinrude. Remeber You Get What You Pay For and new Mercury motor are cheaper that the same HP Johnsons. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, I had originaly wanted a Johnson Outboard because I have had good experiences with them and they have a great reliability reputation.  I now have an opportunity to get a GREAT deal on a new Merc.  Does any one have an objective opinion on Merc vs. Johnson as far as reliability and performance.  I,m not racing I want a boat that will start and run everyday. Thanks, Jason

Response:

Hi, I had originaly wanted a Johnson Outboard because I have had good experiences with them and they have a great reliability reputation.  I now have an opportunity to get a GREAT deal on a new Merc.  Does any one have an objective opinion on Merc vs. Johnson as far as reliability and performance.  I,m not racing I want a boat that will start and run everyday.   Thanks, Jason

Response:

By the way the reason the 200 blew had nothing to do with it being a Merc, it had to do with me cranking it to 6200 rpm too many times, boat would run 92 mph. Ron T.

92 mph in a bass boat? Why would you want to go that fast in a bass boat?  – P.O. Box 7575  Jacksonville, Florida 32238 – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - A man’s best friend is his copy of Messenger V1.0.

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Question:

If you have used this club please give me your opinions on it thanks justin

Response:

I had the misfortune of buying one after hitting a dozen screamers on the driving range….took it on the course and hardly hit a decent drive in about 10 rounds. When the Invex first appeared here in UK they were retailing at